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{\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 800.237, \"end\": 800.397, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 800.397, \"end\": 800.577, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 800.577, \"end\": 800.777, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 800.777, \"end\": 800.997, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 800.997, \"end\": 801.718, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 801.718, \"end\": 801.858, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 801.858, \"end\": 802.278, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 802.278, \"end\": 802.818, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 802.818, \"end\": 802.998, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 802.998, \"end\": 803.239, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"特\", \"start\": 803.239, \"end\": 803.619, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"別\", \"start\": 803.619, \"end\": 804.839, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"強\"}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 804.839, \"end\": 805.64, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 805.64, \"end\": 805.76, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 805.76, \"end\": 805.88, \"score\": 0.771}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 805.88, \"end\": 806.02, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 806.02, \"end\": 806.2, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"救\", \"start\": 806.2, \"end\": 806.42, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 806.42, \"end\": 806.641, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 806.641, \"end\": 806.781, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 806.781, \"end\": 806.801, \"score\": 0.539}]}, {\"start\": 807.522, \"end\": 811.6, \"text\": \"就是這個最高行政法院判決的效力怎麼樣是個案還是通案\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 807.522, \"end\": 807.642, \"score\": 0.502}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 807.642, \"end\": 808.285, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"最\", 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\"好\", \"start\": 1261.211, \"end\": 1261.231, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1261.231, \"end\": 1261.251, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1261.251, \"end\": 1261.271, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:16,347 --> 00:00:22,692\n謝謝主席有請被提名人曾法官麻煩被提名人曾法官再次說明\n\n2\n00:00:35,965 --> 00:00:52,003\n背題名人您好我有特別看了一下您送出來的簡歷資料了解說您也是從基層出生並不是出自於達官險要的家庭\n\n3\n00:00:52,964 --> 00:01:13,657\n那這個部分其實我相信對一個法官來講整個人格的養成還有學術的養成其實這個背景是非常重要的那我看到您那個時代大概也是只能夠靠教育翻身所以你有特別提到你透過讀書考上了北一女\n\n4\n00:01:14,534 --> 00:01:40,509\n高雄公專女士專我其實背景跟您也差不多就是來自山區非常底層的家庭也是透過讀書考上台南女中高雄公專屏東師專但是我們的家庭做出不同的選擇你的父母鼓勵你讀高中你成為一名法官我的父母則是鼓勵我去讀師專\n\n5\n00:01:41,790 --> 00:02:04,309\n成為一個老師校長特別是您有提到很多人這段時間都會去問您說為什麼你會接受大法官的一個提名你有提到因為你覺得你默默的從事這樣這麼多的案子的審判甚至我看到你勇於提出很多的不同意見書\n\n6\n00:02:05,610 --> 00:02:28,025\n所以你覺得這樣子默默工作在司法過勞的一個狀況之下能夠被看見為什麼不欣然接受那我也是這樣的心情就是做一個默默耕耘的教育工作者當有人來找我們當政務官人民的託付選我們出來當立法委員我們為什麼不好好的做這份工作來回饋這個社會\n\n7\n00:02:29,526 --> 00:02:45,716\n所以我這樣子提的原因是想要跟您就教一下因為您這樣的背景同時我看到您目前是最高法院民事大法庭的法官所以你對土地的議題應該是非常的熟悉對吧會承辦到土地相關的案件\n\n8\n00:02:51,414 --> 00:03:16,534\n那因為我們原住民我這幾年做立委的工作我發現我們最在乎的議題也是土地那我看到你其實在108年度有一個台上大字地1636號的裁定這個你應該非常熟悉吧是關於什麼樣的內容因為有時候暗號太多了\n\n9\n00:03:17,151 --> 00:03:17,892\n像今年二月\n\n10\n00:03:33,390 --> 00:03:54,648\n媒體有披露一個關於原保地的新聞就是提到在苗栗縣泰安鄉有一個當地的原住民的鄉民代表他花了九百萬買了十三筆土地然後去設定抵押兩億元給共同開發的一個有中資的開發商\n\n11\n00:03:56,229 --> 00:04:24,541\n然後說蓋的是當地溫泉區的一個五星級飯店我想請教你就你的食物訴訟經驗來看這樣的一個超額抵押的情形通常會發生在什麼樣的狀況這樣的一個就是一個很具體的問題我可能要看就是要要透過那個所有的市政我才能夠做判斷我沒有辦法直接這樣回答\n\n12\n00:04:25,254 --> 00:04:52,667\n我來說提醒你一下因為對我們所謂的原保地的借民登記通常就是類似這樣的一個狀況他可能用500萬元價值的土地但是他就設定抵押1億元這樣的狀況層次不窮就是你永遠還不起的一種借貸關係等於你把你所有的權力都讓不給他了\n\n13\n00:04:53,487 --> 00:05:11,094\n所以呢雖然名字是我的但是呢實際上這筆土地已經是對方的嘛所以呢我們對於這個110年9月17號所做出的這個1636號裁定其實對我們原住民來講非常的振奮因為這個上面寫著說\n\n14\n00:05:12,515 --> 00:05:34,847\n非原住民已借民登記簽訂買賣契約設定地上權及所有權移轉等行為違反法律的禁止規定依民法第七十一條應屬無效所以我想要來先請教您就是你們在合議庭做出這個裁定它的關鍵原因是什麼\n\n15\n00:05:36,281 --> 00:05:51,408\n這個就是說其實那個元寶地他當時的立法其實是為了原住民的生計所以很多原住民就會基於經濟的考量去做一些利用但是他就是說基於那個其實\n\n16\n00:05:52,208 --> 00:06:09,678\n原住民土地應該是包括這一塊而必須要受到重視的所以如果我們內建他其實有一個前提也就是說當他今天是做一個脫法行為然後就是說表面上看起來沒有怎麼樣可是實際上他就是要去\n\n17\n00:06:11,356 --> 00:06:38,941\n迂迴的去迴避說應該要把這個原保地保留給原住民這樣的一個意旨的時候我們認為這樣是不可以的那我其實我們感到很振奮的就是其實這樣的一個說明非常的清楚因為提到就是違反法律的禁止規定因為在原開辦法裡面其實寫得很清楚原住民就是限制原住民之間買賣\n\n18\n00:06:40,582 --> 00:06:41,448\n所以呢就是\n\n19\n00:06:42,523 --> 00:07:12,223\n如果他现在的行为买卖的行为他就是法律白纸黑字上面是不允许做的即便花多少钱去买不是你的就不是你的所以我们觉得刚提到说违反法律的禁止规定的时候移民法第七十一条应属无效我们觉得这样的一个裁定非常的明确也没有可以辩驳的空间所以我们都觉得很棒但是我就是要提到说既然民事大法庭\n\n20\n00:07:12,823 --> 00:07:25,775\n已經做出裁定了統一的法律見解所以理想上來說應該是行政部門行政機關立法部門或者是私人民眾應該都可以跟著這個裁定走沒錯吧\n\n21\n00:07:27,574 --> 00:07:55,482\n但是很遺憾你看從110年9月17號有這個裁定到現在四年的時間我們還是看到原住民族的土地仍然透過各種規避法律鑽漏洞的方式就是我們的土地呢就是不斷的在流失而且學者學界他已經有做過一個保守的估計大概目前私有原保地11萬公頃多\n\n22\n00:07:57,242 --> 00:08:19,441\n至少一半都已經流落在非原住民的手中所以根本防不勝防所以我想要就教就是您就是被提名人如果您過去擔任民事大法官多年的專業角度就是除了訴訟以外在這個裁定基礎上有沒有更積極的做法可以從源頭來解決這個問題\n\n23\n00:08:22,125 --> 00:08:46,362\n我想這個問題的面向太多端了因為司法上面的關係很多都是透過契約的行為所以就審判來講我們只能透過事實去認定他是不是脫法行為這件事情去界定他至於其他在行政上面有沒有什麼樣的方式可以去做\n\n24\n00:08:47,486 --> 00:08:59,229\n就是去防範這些事情我想這個可能就要進一步讓行政部門去做處理這樣子所以您認為是行政機關處理而不是透過立法\n\n25\n00:09:00,458 --> 00:09:18,761\n立法的話這個當然也就是立法要用什麼樣的方式定到什麼樣的程度那這個當然也是立法材料的問題當然現在原保地我們的法源叫做原住民保留地開發辦法那它的上位有一個叫山坡地保育利用條例\n\n26\n00:09:19,542 --> 00:09:44,642\n所以像原保地他是開發辦法這樣的法律位階他其實沒有辦法能夠去承擔民事大法庭的裁定也沒有辦法符合你剛剛講的就是符合憲法增修條文第十條第十一項他所揭示的您剛剛特別提到就是原保地是原住民文化經濟最關鍵的基礎載體如果土地都流失了文化怎麼傳承\n\n27\n00:09:45,743 --> 00:10:13,433\n原住民經濟自立要怎麼實現這個也是當初這個判決的一個很重要的意旨所以提升法律慰藉有沒有他的必要我覺得這個是可以就是可以用這樣的方式因為其實整個原住民包括就是他的傳統領域權這樣的一個整個的界定他是不是除了公有地之外也應該包括私有地我想這個應該做一個是整體的去所以\n\n28\n00:10:14,153 --> 00:10:29,145\n所以我就是要提醒目前保護原住民土地的法可以說是零所以我們非常需要一步關於原住民族土地保留地傳統領域的專法或者是專章\n\n29\n00:10:30,587 --> 00:10:48,008\n讓土地他被保護的規範可以更明確權責更清楚避免了被目前這些專法律漏洞的這些變相手段來侵蝕所以今天你作為大法官的被庭名人我希望如果你未來獲得大法官\n\n30\n00:10:49,428 --> 00:11:15,078\n這個憲法守護者這個重要的職務那面對像我們原住民目前有很多的立法空白或者是權力侵蝕的地方我希望你能夠支持並且承諾未來如果再做釋憲或者是審查相關的案件能夠持續你過去在民事大法庭對原住民族的支持來去做保障跟法治化讓原住民的\n\n31\n00:11:16,238 --> 00:11:42,049\n這個權利可以在憲法層級獲得真正的尊重跟實踐您做得到嗎可以好謝謝那另外最近也有一個很重要的判決我也想要來請教您的意見就是在上上週最高行政法院有做出一個487號的判決那意思就是說他們對於目前的傳統領域劃設辦法說\n\n32\n00:11:44,890 --> 00:12:13,642\n要把原住民族的傳統領域僅限於公有地他說逾越原基法第21條第4項授權的目的跟範圍並對於原基法第20條政府所承認的原住民族土地權利及21條第一項所賦予原住民族的諮商同意程序權增加法律所無的限制也就是違反法律保留原則\n\n33\n00:12:14,762 --> 00:12:34,818\n為什麼這個很重要因為我不知道您知不知道蔡英文總統2016年上任之後的隔年2月14號那個時候公布傳統領域畫色辦法結果呢就是把原住民的傳統領域僅限於公有地引起嘩然甚至有一個\n\n34\n00:12:35,558 --> 00:13:01,746\n捍衛土地的著名歌手巴奈他在凱道上抗爭2644天就為了抗議這個發射辦法的不足不對所以呢這樣的一個114年6月25號出來的判決對原住民來講真的是長期的一個訴求獲得了一個回應為什麼因為他說得很清楚\n\n35\n00:13:02,746 --> 00:13:26,801\n這本來就是很簡單的道理他違反了法律保留原則原基法他又沒有把傳統領域分公私有因為那是過去的傳統領域可是我們的行政機關卻用位階比較低的劃設辦法去限於說傳統領域只能有工有地所以我為什麼要特別來強調這一點就是想要救教你啊\n\n36\n00:13:27,522 --> 00:13:31,600\n就是這個最高行政法院判決的效力怎麼樣是個案還是通案\n\n37\n00:13:33,971 --> 00:14:03,706\n我想他是個個案沒錯但是他所闡述的這個理念是可以引起大家來共鳴或者是討論的那我基本上是同意這樣的見解因為我也認為就是原住民跟他的土地之間傳統的土地是有深層的精神聯繫的那因此經過很多原民運動才爭取到的那個傳統領域權這件事情應該要包括所謂的公有地跟私有地\n\n38\n00:14:03,746 --> 00:14:04,227\n是否都應該要參考這個見解\n\n39\n00:14:21,887 --> 00:14:37,633\n這個部分因為大概涉及到原住民的那個諮商同意權所以這部分應該都是行政法院的那個就是行政法院他們細數的案件所以我才特別要來問最高刑如果有這樣的一個見解對他們的下級法院應該會產生一定的影響力\n\n40\n00:14:39,147 --> 00:15:03,484\n我為什麼特別要問因為我們都覺得這個判決非常重要為什麼因為它涉及到原基法第21條諮商同意權的適用範圍其實諮商同意原基法在訂定它是為了要去落實聯合國原住民權利宣言當中所提到的自由事前知情同意也就是所謂的FPIC原則\n\n41\n00:15:04,585 --> 00:15:26,750\n所以我們的中華民國憲法徵修條文第十條也有明定國家應該保障原住民族的土地權利但是現在的實務就是看到如果這些開發是在私有土地他就會繞過去去避免跟部落溝通這樣的一個義務所以我們知道這個爭端其實是來自於說\n\n42\n00:15:28,090 --> 00:15:52,397\n對於私有財產權現有的法律現在的法律對私有財產權的保障所以我要特別請教一下被提名人國家在哪些情況下可以限制人民的私有財產國家在什麼樣的情況下可能要看具體的情況也就是代替通勤權就是看具體的情況用法律去規定他都市計劃區段徵收\n\n43\n00:15:57,277 --> 00:16:22,796\n所以這些都是法律容許的嘛一定程度的介入限制嘛所以其實是有的嘛對不對法律是可以嘛所以我請教就是如果我們按照我們剛剛講的聯合國FBIC這個核心原則事前知情同意跟剛才我講的那些手段對人民的損害程度是不是明顯小很多\n\n44\n00:16:24,455 --> 00:16:48,098\n我想這個諮商同意權的這個部分應該要落實落實先諮商然後再同意參與我想這個應該就可以解決這樣的問題所以我就是想要請教就是說在私有的土地上面建行所謂的事前同意事前同意它是否必然等同侵害了人民的私有財產權\n\n45\n00:16:49,090 --> 00:17:17,897\n我想這個應該不是吧因為原基法本來就有規定原住民土地是包括這一塊的好謝謝因為我們也都這麼覺得所以我在這個地方就是說事前之前同一制度的設計其實只是為了讓國家的法律不要忽視我們很強調的原住民族是先於國家的集體土地權這個很重要而不是去侵害任何個人的權益所以\n\n46\n00:17:18,317 --> 00:17:47,529\n他只是反映出我們國家一個非常核心而且長久存在的問題就是原住民族土地的集體權跟國家以私有財產權為治理基礎這個兩個之間有很多的衝突有很多的想像跟不明確所以我請教就是您是否認為在原住民族土地上即便那個土地是屬於私有也應該要遵守事前知情同意這種基本權利對不對\n\n47\n00:17:48,562 --> 00:18:09,792\n這個我是贊成的謝謝您吼那這樣的一個機制吼不應該我們都把它簡化說哎呀會侵犯私有財產權應該是我們反而是要去透過好的一個制度設計去保障原住民的集體權利跟尊重個人財產權之間我相信你也同意吧\n\n48\n00:18:10,732 --> 00:18:30,978\n因為我覺得這個是原住民自覺權的一部分所以我現在就是請教就是你作為一個法律專業者我很想要請教你就是你怎麼樣去從制度的一個角度去實現這個平衡我希望你未來做大法官你能夠往這個地方去努力嗎\n\n49\n00:18:33,937 --> 00:18:45,007\n我希望你可以往這個方向努力那因為時間的關係我最後一個議題來請教您我先跟您說這個是關於選區劃分選制的問題\n\n50\n00:18:49,270 --> 00:19:15,763\n像上一次的地方選舉2022年在新北市有一個原住民族人他想要去選新北市的議員但是呢就是被駁回那被駁回的理由其實也很簡單啦因為就說你可以選但是你必須要放棄你的原住民族身份那我不曉得說你對於這樣的一個法律見解是什麼\n\n51\n00:19:17,901 --> 00:19:33,789\n因為這件事情事實本身我並不是很了解但是我初步聽起來這個應該是被選舉權的行使跟原住民身份權之間的保障兩個之間的問題\n\n52\n00:19:35,370 --> 00:19:53,523\n他被中選會根據選罷法撤銷他的資格那內政部是這樣回應就是說如果原住民去選這個的時候會衝擊到非原住民的參選權益這個需要社會共識那這個明明我們憲法第17條是人民有選舉罷免創制及複決權這個能不能主張違憲\n\n53\n00:19:59,686 --> 00:20:15,343\n這個我要看具體的情況我是這樣子想這本末倒置因為如果我們去看我們的憲法增修條文他其實是保障我們的基本席次他不是限制我們的參政權他只是保障席次\n\n54\n00:20:15,683 --> 00:20:41,077\n他去他並沒有去提所以這個部分他也會去牽涉到為什麼我們去講這個問題因為我們現在原住民的選區也有過大的問題那這個部分其實也因為時間不夠的關係我希望未來如果有機會我希望那些問題你都能夠好好的來思考那因為我們有一個共同的目標就是我們要遵守憲法這是我們共同的目\n\n55\n00:20:45,184 --> 00:21:01,271\n那也希望這是我們原住民最後一道防線我們原住民最後在這個國家體制下最後的依賴就是我們的憲法那我希望你們會對憲法保障享受的權利好不好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n16347\t22692\t謝謝主席有請被提名人曾法官麻煩被提名人曾法官再次說明\n35965\t52003\t背題名人您好我有特別看了一下您送出來的簡歷資料了解說您也是從基層出生並不是出自於達官險要的家庭\n52964\t73657\t那這個部分其實我相信對一個法官來講整個人格的養成還有學術的養成其實這個背景是非常重要的那我看到您那個時代大概也是只能夠靠教育翻身所以你有特別提到你透過讀書考上了北一女\n74534\t100509\t高雄公專 女士專我其實背景跟您也差不多就是來自山區非常底層的家庭也是透過讀書考上台南女中高雄公專 屏東師專但是我們的家庭做出不同的選擇你的父母鼓勵你讀高中你成為一名法官我的父母則是鼓勵我去讀師專\n101790\t124309\t成為一個老師校長特別是您有提到很多人這段時間都會去問您說為什麼你會接受大法官的一個提名你有提到因為你覺得你默默的從事這樣這麼多的案子的審判甚至我看到你勇於提出很多的不同意見書\n125610\t148025\t所以你覺得這樣子默默工作在司法過勞的一個狀況之下能夠被看見為什麼不欣然接受那我也是這樣的心情就是做一個默默耕耘的教育工作者當有人來找我們當政務官人民的託付選我們出來當立法委員我們為什麼不好好的做這份工作來回饋這個社會\n149526\t165716\t所以我這樣子提的原因是想要跟您就教一下因為您這樣的背景同時我看到您目前是最高法院民事大法庭的法官所以你對土地的議題應該是非常的熟悉對吧會承辦到土地相關的案件\n171414\t196534\t那因為我們原住民我這幾年做立委的工作我發現我們最在乎的議題也是土地那我看到你其實在108年度有一個台上大字地1636號的裁定這個你應該非常熟悉吧是關於什麼樣的內容因為有時候暗號太多了\n197151\t197892\t像今年二月\n213390\t234648\t媒體有披露一個關於原保地的新聞就是提到在苗栗縣泰安鄉有一個當地的原住民的鄉民代表他花了九百萬買了十三筆土地然後去設定抵押兩億元給共同開發的一個有中資的開發商\n236229\t264541\t然後說蓋的是當地溫泉區的一個五星級飯店我想請教你就你的食物訴訟經驗來看這樣的一個超額抵押的情形通常會發生在什麼樣的狀況這樣的一個就是一個很具體的問題我可能要看就是要要透過那個所有的市政我才能夠做判斷我沒有辦法直接這樣回答\n265254\t292667\t我來說提醒你一下因為對我們所謂的原保地的借民登記通常就是類似這樣的一個狀況他可能用500萬元價值的土地但是他就設定抵押1億元這樣的狀況層次不窮就是你永遠還不起的一種借貸關係等於你把你所有的權力都讓不給他了\n293487\t311094\t所以呢雖然名字是我的但是呢實際上這筆土地已經是對方的嘛所以呢我們對於這個110年9月17號所做出的這個1636號裁定其實對我們原住民來講非常的振奮因為這個上面寫著說\n312515\t334847\t非原住民已借民登記簽訂買賣契約設定地上權及所有權移轉等行為違反法律的禁止規定依民法第七十一條應屬無效所以我想要來先請教您就是你們在合議庭做出這個裁定它的關鍵原因是什麼\n336281\t351408\t這個就是說其實那個元寶地他當時的立法其實是為了原住民的生計所以很多原住民就會基於經濟的考量去做一些利用但是他就是說基於那個其實\n352208\t369678\t原住民土地應該是包括這一塊而必須要受到重視的所以如果我們內建他其實有一個前提也就是說當他今天是做一個脫法行為然後就是說表面上看起來沒有怎麼樣可是實際上他就是要去\n371356\t398941\t迂迴的去迴避說應該要把這個原保地保留給原住民這樣的一個意旨的時候我們認為這樣是不可以的那我其實我們感到很振奮的就是其實這樣的一個說明非常的清楚因為提到就是違反法律的禁止規定因為在原開辦法裡面其實寫得很清楚原住民就是限制原住民之間買賣\n400582\t401448\t所以呢 就是\n402523\t432223\t如果他现在的行为买卖的行为他就是法律白纸黑字上面是不允许做的即便花多少钱去买不是你的就不是你的所以我们觉得刚提到说违反法律的禁止规定的时候移民法第七十一条应属无效我们觉得这样的一个裁定非常的明确也没有可以辩驳的空间所以我们都觉得很棒但是我就是要提到说既然民事大法庭\n432823\t445775\t已經做出裁定了統一的法律見解所以理想上來說應該是行政部門行政機關立法部門或者是私人民眾應該都可以跟著這個裁定走沒錯吧\n447574\t475482\t但是很遺憾你看從110年9月17號有這個裁定到現在四年的時間我們還是看到原住民族的土地仍然透過各種規避法律鑽漏洞的方式就是我們的土地呢就是不斷的在流失而且學者學界他已經有做過一個保守的估計大概目前私有原保地11萬公頃多\n477242\t499441\t至少一半都已經流落在非原住民的手中所以根本防不勝防所以我想要就教就是您就是被提名人如果您過去擔任民事大法官多年的專業角度就是除了訴訟以外在這個裁定基礎上有沒有更積極的做法可以從源頭來解決這個問題\n502125\t526362\t我想這個問題的面向太多端了因為司法上面的關係很多都是透過契約的行為所以就審判來講我們只能透過事實去認定他是不是脫法行為這件事情去界定他至於其他在行政上面有沒有什麼樣的方式可以去做\n527486\t539229\t就是去防範這些事情我想這個可能就要進一步讓行政部門去做處理這樣子所以您認為是行政機關處理而不是透過立法\n540458\t558761\t立法的話這個當然也就是立法要用什麼樣的方式定到什麼樣的程度那這個當然也是立法材料的問題當然現在原保地我們的法源叫做原住民保留地開發辦法那它的上位有一個叫山坡地保育利用條例\n559542\t584642\t所以像原保地他是開發辦法這樣的法律位階他其實沒有辦法能夠去承擔民事大法庭的裁定也沒有辦法符合你剛剛講的就是符合憲法增修條文第十條第十一項他所揭示的您剛剛特別提到就是原保地是原住民文化經濟最關鍵的基礎載體如果土地都流失了文化怎麼傳承\n585743\t613433\t原住民經濟自立要怎麼實現這個也是當初這個判決的一個很重要的意旨所以提升法律慰藉有沒有他的必要我覺得這個是可以就是可以用這樣的方式因為其實整個原住民包括就是他的傳統領域權這樣的一個整個的界定他是不是除了公有地之外也應該包括私有地我想這個應該做一個是整體的去所以\n614153\t629145\t所以我就是要提醒目前保護原住民土地的法可以說是零所以我們非常需要一步關於原住民族土地保留地傳統領域的專法或者是專章\n630587\t648008\t讓土地他被保護的規範可以更明確權責更清楚避免了被目前這些專法律漏洞的這些變相手段來侵蝕所以今天你作為大法官的被庭名人我希望如果你未來獲得大法官\n649428\t675078\t這個憲法守護者這個重要的職務那面對像我們原住民目前有很多的立法空白或者是權力侵蝕的地方我希望你能夠支持並且承諾未來如果再做釋憲或者是審查相關的案件能夠持續你過去在民事大法庭對原住民族的支持來去做保障跟法治化讓原住民的\n676238\t702049\t這個權利可以在憲法層級獲得真正的尊重跟實踐您做得到嗎可以好 謝謝那另外最近也有一個很重要的判決我也想要來請教您的意見就是在上上週最高行政法院有做出一個487號的判決那意思就是說他們對於目前的傳統領域劃設辦法說\n704890\t733642\t要把原住民族的傳統領域僅限於公有地他說逾越原基法第21條第4項授權的目的跟範圍並對於原基法第20條政府所承認的原住民族土地權利及21條第一項所賦予原住民族的諮商同意程序權增加法律所無的限制也就是違反法律保留原則\n734762\t754818\t為什麼這個很重要因為我不知道您知不知道蔡英文總統2016年上任之後的隔年2月14號那個時候公布傳統領域畫色辦法結果呢就是把原住民的傳統領域僅限於公有地引起嘩然甚至有一個\n755558\t781746\t捍衛土地的著名歌手巴奈他在凱道上抗爭2644天就為了抗議這個發射辦法的不足不對所以呢這樣的一個114年6月25號出來的判決對原住民來講真的是長期的一個訴求獲得了一個回應為什麼因為他說得很清楚\n782746\t806801\t這本來就是很簡單的道理他違反了法律保留原則原基法他又沒有把傳統領域分公私有因為那是過去的傳統領域可是我們的行政機關卻用位階比較低的劃設辦法去限於說傳統領域只能有工有地所以我為什麼要特別來強調這一點就是想要救教你啊\n807522\t811600\t就是這個最高行政法院判決的效力怎麼樣是個案還是通案\n813971\t843706\t我想他是個個案沒錯但是他所闡述的這個理念是可以引起大家來共鳴或者是討論的那我基本上是同意這樣的見解因為我也認為就是原住民跟他的土地之間傳統的土地是有深層的精神聯繫的那因此經過很多原民運動才爭取到的那個傳統領域權這件事情應該要包括所謂的公有地跟私有地\n843746\t844227\t是否都應該要參考這個見解\n861887\t877633\t這個部分因為大概涉及到原住民的那個諮商同意權所以這部分應該都是行政法院的那個就是行政法院他們細數的案件所以我才特別要來問最高刑如果有這樣的一個見解對他們的下級法院應該會產生一定的影響力\n879147\t903484\t我為什麼特別要問因為我們都覺得這個判決非常重要為什麼因為它涉及到原基法第21條諮商同意權的適用範圍其實諮商同意原基法在訂定它是為了要去落實聯合國原住民權利宣言當中所提到的自由事前知情同意也就是所謂的FPIC原則\n904585\t926750\t所以我們的中華民國憲法徵修條文第十條也有明定國家應該保障原住民族的土地權利但是現在的實務就是看到如果這些開發是在私有土地他就會繞過去去避免跟部落溝通這樣的一個義務所以我們知道這個爭端其實是來自於說\n928090\t952397\t對於私有財產權現有的法律現在的法律對私有財產權的保障所以我要特別請教一下被提名人國家在哪些情況下可以限制人民的私有財產國家在什麼樣的情況下可能要看具體的情況也就是代替通勤權就是看具體的情況用法律去規定他都市計劃區段徵收\n957277\t982796\t所以這些都是法律容許的嘛一定程度的介入限制嘛所以其實是有的嘛對不對法律是可以嘛所以我請教就是如果我們按照我們剛剛講的聯合國FBIC這個核心原則事前知情同意跟剛才我講的那些手段對人民的損害程度是不是明顯小很多\n984455\t1008098\t我想這個諮商同意權的這個部分應該要落實落實先諮商然後再同意參與我想這個應該就可以解決這樣的問題所以我就是想要請教就是說在私有的土地上面建行所謂的事前同意事前同意它是否必然等同侵害了人民的私有財產權\n1009090\t1037897\t我想這個應該不是吧因為原基法本來就有規定原住民土地是包括這一塊的好謝謝因為我們也都這麼覺得所以我在這個地方就是說事前之前同一制度的設計其實只是為了讓國家的法律不要忽視我們很強調的原住民族是先於國家的集體土地權這個很重要而不是去侵害任何個人的權益所以\n1038317\t1067529\t他只是反映出我們國家一個非常核心而且長久存在的問題就是原住民族土地的集體權跟國家以私有財產權為治理基礎這個兩個之間有很多的衝突有很多的想像跟不明確所以我請教就是您是否認為在原住民族土地上即便那個土地是屬於私有也應該要遵守事前知情同意這種基本權利對不對\n1068562\t1089792\t這個我是贊成的謝謝您吼那這樣的一個機制吼不應該我們都把它簡化說哎呀會侵犯私有財產權應該是我們反而是要去透過好的一個制度設計去保障原住民的集體權利跟尊重個人財產權之間我相信你也同意吧\n1090732\t1110978\t因為我覺得這個是原住民自覺權的一部分所以我現在就是請教就是你作為一個法律專業者我很想要請教你就是你怎麼樣去從制度的一個角度去實現這個平衡我希望你未來做大法官你能夠往這個地方去努力嗎\n1113937\t1125007\t我希望你可以往這個方向努力那因為時間的關係我最後一個議題來請教您我先跟您說這個是關於選區劃分選制的問題\n1129270\t1155763\t像上一次的地方選舉2022年在新北市有一個原住民族人他想要去選新北市的議員但是呢就是被駁回那被駁回的理由其實也很簡單啦因為就說你可以選但是你必須要放棄你的原住民族身份那我不曉得說你對於這樣的一個法律見解是什麼\n1157901\t1173789\t因為這件事情事實本身我並不是很了解但是我初步聽起來這個應該是被選舉權的行使跟原住民身份權之間的保障兩個之間的問題\n1175370\t1193523\t他被中選會根據選罷法撤銷他的資格那內政部是這樣回應就是說如果原住民去選這個的時候會衝擊到非原住民的參選權益這個需要社會共識那這個明明我們憲法第17條是人民有選舉罷免創制及複決權這個能不能主張違憲\n1199686\t1215343\t這個我要看具體的情況我是這樣子想這本末倒置因為如果我們去看我們的憲法增修條文他其實是保障我們的基本席次他不是限制我們的參政權他只是保障席次\n1215683\t1241077\t他去他並沒有去提所以這個部分他也會去牽涉到為什麼我們去講這個問題因為我們現在原住民的選區也有過大的問題那這個部分其實也因為時間不夠的關係我希望未來如果有機會我希望那些問題你都能夠好好的來思考那因為我們有一個共同的目標就是我們要遵守憲法這是我們共同的目\n1245184\t1261271\t那也希望這是我們原住民最後一道防線我們原住民最後在這個國家體制下最後的依賴就是我們的憲法那我希望你們會對憲法保障享受的權利好不好謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席有請被提名人曾法官麻煩被提名人曾法官再次說明\n背題名人您好我有特別看了一下您送出來的簡歷資料了解說您也是從基層出生並不是出自於達官險要的家庭\n那這個部分其實我相信對一個法官來講整個人格的養成還有學術的養成其實這個背景是非常重要的那我看到您那個時代大概也是只能夠靠教育翻身所以你有特別提到你透過讀書考上了北一女\n高雄公專 女士專我其實背景跟您也差不多就是來自山區非常底層的家庭也是透過讀書考上台南女中高雄公專 屏東師專但是我們的家庭做出不同的選擇你的父母鼓勵你讀高中你成為一名法官我的父母則是鼓勵我去讀師專\n成為一個老師校長特別是您有提到很多人這段時間都會去問您說為什麼你會接受大法官的一個提名你有提到因為你覺得你默默的從事這樣這麼多的案子的審判甚至我看到你勇於提出很多的不同意見書\n所以你覺得這樣子默默工作在司法過勞的一個狀況之下能夠被看見為什麼不欣然接受那我也是這樣的心情就是做一個默默耕耘的教育工作者當有人來找我們當政務官人民的託付選我們出來當立法委員我們為什麼不好好的做這份工作來回饋這個社會\n所以我這樣子提的原因是想要跟您就教一下因為您這樣的背景同時我看到您目前是最高法院民事大法庭的法官所以你對土地的議題應該是非常的熟悉對吧會承辦到土地相關的案件\n那因為我們原住民我這幾年做立委的工作我發現我們最在乎的議題也是土地那我看到你其實在108年度有一個台上大字地1636號的裁定這個你應該非常熟悉吧是關於什麼樣的內容因為有時候暗號太多了\n像今年二月\n媒體有披露一個關於原保地的新聞就是提到在苗栗縣泰安鄉有一個當地的原住民的鄉民代表他花了九百萬買了十三筆土地然後去設定抵押兩億元給共同開發的一個有中資的開發商\n然後說蓋的是當地溫泉區的一個五星級飯店我想請教你就你的食物訴訟經驗來看這樣的一個超額抵押的情形通常會發生在什麼樣的狀況這樣的一個就是一個很具體的問題我可能要看就是要要透過那個所有的市政我才能夠做判斷我沒有辦法直接這樣回答\n我來說提醒你一下因為對我們所謂的原保地的借民登記通常就是類似這樣的一個狀況他可能用500萬元價值的土地但是他就設定抵押1億元這樣的狀況層次不窮就是你永遠還不起的一種借貸關係等於你把你所有的權力都讓不給他了\n所以呢雖然名字是我的但是呢實際上這筆土地已經是對方的嘛所以呢我們對於這個110年9月17號所做出的這個1636號裁定其實對我們原住民來講非常的振奮因為這個上面寫著說\n非原住民已借民登記簽訂買賣契約設定地上權及所有權移轉等行為違反法律的禁止規定依民法第七十一條應屬無效所以我想要來先請教您就是你們在合議庭做出這個裁定它的關鍵原因是什麼\n這個就是說其實那個元寶地他當時的立法其實是為了原住民的生計所以很多原住民就會基於經濟的考量去做一些利用但是他就是說基於那個其實\n原住民土地應該是包括這一塊而必須要受到重視的所以如果我們內建他其實有一個前提也就是說當他今天是做一個脫法行為然後就是說表面上看起來沒有怎麼樣可是實際上他就是要去\n迂迴的去迴避說應該要把這個原保地保留給原住民這樣的一個意旨的時候我們認為這樣是不可以的那我其實我們感到很振奮的就是其實這樣的一個說明非常的清楚因為提到就是違反法律的禁止規定因為在原開辦法裡面其實寫得很清楚原住民就是限制原住民之間買賣\n所以呢 就是\n如果他现在的行为买卖的行为他就是法律白纸黑字上面是不允许做的即便花多少钱去买不是你的就不是你的所以我们觉得刚提到说违反法律的禁止规定的时候移民法第七十一条应属无效我们觉得这样的一个裁定非常的明确也没有可以辩驳的空间所以我们都觉得很棒但是我就是要提到说既然民事大法庭\n已經做出裁定了統一的法律見解所以理想上來說應該是行政部門行政機關立法部門或者是私人民眾應該都可以跟著這個裁定走沒錯吧\n但是很遺憾你看從110年9月17號有這個裁定到現在四年的時間我們還是看到原住民族的土地仍然透過各種規避法律鑽漏洞的方式就是我們的土地呢就是不斷的在流失而且學者學界他已經有做過一個保守的估計大概目前私有原保地11萬公頃多\n至少一半都已經流落在非原住民的手中所以根本防不勝防所以我想要就教就是您就是被提名人如果您過去擔任民事大法官多年的專業角度就是除了訴訟以外在這個裁定基礎上有沒有更積極的做法可以從源頭來解決這個問題\n我想這個問題的面向太多端了因為司法上面的關係很多都是透過契約的行為所以就審判來講我們只能透過事實去認定他是不是脫法行為這件事情去界定他至於其他在行政上面有沒有什麼樣的方式可以去做\n就是去防範這些事情我想這個可能就要進一步讓行政部門去做處理這樣子所以您認為是行政機關處理而不是透過立法\n立法的話這個當然也就是立法要用什麼樣的方式定到什麼樣的程度那這個當然也是立法材料的問題當然現在原保地我們的法源叫做原住民保留地開發辦法那它的上位有一個叫山坡地保育利用條例\n所以像原保地他是開發辦法這樣的法律位階他其實沒有辦法能夠去承擔民事大法庭的裁定也沒有辦法符合你剛剛講的就是符合憲法增修條文第十條第十一項他所揭示的您剛剛特別提到就是原保地是原住民文化經濟最關鍵的基礎載體如果土地都流失了文化怎麼傳承\n原住民經濟自立要怎麼實現這個也是當初這個判決的一個很重要的意旨所以提升法律慰藉有沒有他的必要我覺得這個是可以就是可以用這樣的方式因為其實整個原住民包括就是他的傳統領域權這樣的一個整個的界定他是不是除了公有地之外也應該包括私有地我想這個應該做一個是整體的去所以\n所以我就是要提醒目前保護原住民土地的法可以說是零所以我們非常需要一步關於原住民族土地保留地傳統領域的專法或者是專章\n讓土地他被保護的規範可以更明確權責更清楚避免了被目前這些專法律漏洞的這些變相手段來侵蝕所以今天你作為大法官的被庭名人我希望如果你未來獲得大法官\n這個憲法守護者這個重要的職務那面對像我們原住民目前有很多的立法空白或者是權力侵蝕的地方我希望你能夠支持並且承諾未來如果再做釋憲或者是審查相關的案件能夠持續你過去在民事大法庭對原住民族的支持來去做保障跟法治化讓原住民的\n這個權利可以在憲法層級獲得真正的尊重跟實踐您做得到嗎可以好 謝謝那另外最近也有一個很重要的判決我也想要來請教您的意見就是在上上週最高行政法院有做出一個487號的判決那意思就是說他們對於目前的傳統領域劃設辦法說\n要把原住民族的傳統領域僅限於公有地他說逾越原基法第21條第4項授權的目的跟範圍並對於原基法第20條政府所承認的原住民族土地權利及21條第一項所賦予原住民族的諮商同意程序權增加法律所無的限制也就是違反法律保留原則\n為什麼這個很重要因為我不知道您知不知道蔡英文總統2016年上任之後的隔年2月14號那個時候公布傳統領域畫色辦法結果呢就是把原住民的傳統領域僅限於公有地引起嘩然甚至有一個\n捍衛土地的著名歌手巴奈他在凱道上抗爭2644天就為了抗議這個發射辦法的不足不對所以呢這樣的一個114年6月25號出來的判決對原住民來講真的是長期的一個訴求獲得了一個回應為什麼因為他說得很清楚\n這本來就是很簡單的道理他違反了法律保留原則原基法他又沒有把傳統領域分公私有因為那是過去的傳統領域可是我們的行政機關卻用位階比較低的劃設辦法去限於說傳統領域只能有工有地所以我為什麼要特別來強調這一點就是想要救教你啊\n就是這個最高行政法院判決的效力怎麼樣是個案還是通案\n我想他是個個案沒錯但是他所闡述的這個理念是可以引起大家來共鳴或者是討論的那我基本上是同意這樣的見解因為我也認為就是原住民跟他的土地之間傳統的土地是有深層的精神聯繫的那因此經過很多原民運動才爭取到的那個傳統領域權這件事情應該要包括所謂的公有地跟私有地\n是否都應該要參考這個見解\n這個部分因為大概涉及到原住民的那個諮商同意權所以這部分應該都是行政法院的那個就是行政法院他們細數的案件所以我才特別要來問最高刑如果有這樣的一個見解對他們的下級法院應該會產生一定的影響力\n我為什麼特別要問因為我們都覺得這個判決非常重要為什麼因為它涉及到原基法第21條諮商同意權的適用範圍其實諮商同意原基法在訂定它是為了要去落實聯合國原住民權利宣言當中所提到的自由事前知情同意也就是所謂的FPIC原則\n所以我們的中華民國憲法徵修條文第十條也有明定國家應該保障原住民族的土地權利但是現在的實務就是看到如果這些開發是在私有土地他就會繞過去去避免跟部落溝通這樣的一個義務所以我們知道這個爭端其實是來自於說\n對於私有財產權現有的法律現在的法律對私有財產權的保障所以我要特別請教一下被提名人國家在哪些情況下可以限制人民的私有財產國家在什麼樣的情況下可能要看具體的情況也就是代替通勤權就是看具體的情況用法律去規定他都市計劃區段徵收\n所以這些都是法律容許的嘛一定程度的介入限制嘛所以其實是有的嘛對不對法律是可以嘛所以我請教就是如果我們按照我們剛剛講的聯合國FBIC這個核心原則事前知情同意跟剛才我講的那些手段對人民的損害程度是不是明顯小很多\n我想這個諮商同意權的這個部分應該要落實落實先諮商然後再同意參與我想這個應該就可以解決這樣的問題所以我就是想要請教就是說在私有的土地上面建行所謂的事前同意事前同意它是否必然等同侵害了人民的私有財產權\n我想這個應該不是吧因為原基法本來就有規定原住民土地是包括這一塊的好謝謝因為我們也都這麼覺得所以我在這個地方就是說事前之前同一制度的設計其實只是為了讓國家的法律不要忽視我們很強調的原住民族是先於國家的集體土地權這個很重要而不是去侵害任何個人的權益所以\n他只是反映出我們國家一個非常核心而且長久存在的問題就是原住民族土地的集體權跟國家以私有財產權為治理基礎這個兩個之間有很多的衝突有很多的想像跟不明確所以我請教就是您是否認為在原住民族土地上即便那個土地是屬於私有也應該要遵守事前知情同意這種基本權利對不對\n這個我是贊成的謝謝您吼那這樣的一個機制吼不應該我們都把它簡化說哎呀會侵犯私有財產權應該是我們反而是要去透過好的一個制度設計去保障原住民的集體權利跟尊重個人財產權之間我相信你也同意吧\n因為我覺得這個是原住民自覺權的一部分所以我現在就是請教就是你作為一個法律專業者我很想要請教你就是你怎麼樣去從制度的一個角度去實現這個平衡我希望你未來做大法官你能夠往這個地方去努力嗎\n我希望你可以往這個方向努力那因為時間的關係我最後一個議題來請教您我先跟您說這個是關於選區劃分選制的問題\n像上一次的地方選舉2022年在新北市有一個原住民族人他想要去選新北市的議員但是呢就是被駁回那被駁回的理由其實也很簡單啦因為就說你可以選但是你必須要放棄你的原住民族身份那我不曉得說你對於這樣的一個法律見解是什麼\n因為這件事情事實本身我並不是很了解但是我初步聽起來這個應該是被選舉權的行使跟原住民身份權之間的保障兩個之間的問題\n他被中選會根據選罷法撤銷他的資格那內政部是這樣回應就是說如果原住民去選這個的時候會衝擊到非原住民的參選權益這個需要社會共識那這個明明我們憲法第17條是人民有選舉罷免創制及複決權這個能不能主張違憲\n這個我要看具體的情況我是這樣子想這本末倒置因為如果我們去看我們的憲法增修條文他其實是保障我們的基本席次他不是限制我們的參政權他只是保障席次\n他去他並沒有去提所以這個部分他也會去牽涉到為什麼我們去講這個問題因為我們現在原住民的選區也有過大的問題那這個部分其實也因為時間不夠的關係我希望未來如果有機會我希望那些問題你都能夠好好的來思考那因為我們有一個共同的目標就是我們要遵守憲法這是我們共同的目\n那也希望這是我們原住民最後一道防線我們原住民最後在這個國家體制下最後的依賴就是我們的憲法那我希望你們會對憲法保障享受的權利好不好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:16.347 --> 00:22.692\n謝謝主席有請被提名人曾法官麻煩被提名人曾法官再次說明\n\n00:35.965 --> 00:52.003\n背題名人您好我有特別看了一下您送出來的簡歷資料了解說您也是從基層出生並不是出自於達官險要的家庭\n\n00:52.964 --> 01:13.657\n那這個部分其實我相信對一個法官來講整個人格的養成還有學術的養成其實這個背景是非常重要的那我看到您那個時代大概也是只能夠靠教育翻身所以你有特別提到你透過讀書考上了北一女\n\n01:14.534 --> 01:40.509\n高雄公專女士專我其實背景跟您也差不多就是來自山區非常底層的家庭也是透過讀書考上台南女中高雄公專屏東師專但是我們的家庭做出不同的選擇你的父母鼓勵你讀高中你成為一名法官我的父母則是鼓勵我去讀師專\n\n01:41.790 --> 02:04.309\n成為一個老師校長特別是您有提到很多人這段時間都會去問您說為什麼你會接受大法官的一個提名你有提到因為你覺得你默默的從事這樣這麼多的案子的審判甚至我看到你勇於提出很多的不同意見書\n\n02:05.610 --> 02:28.025\n所以你覺得這樣子默默工作在司法過勞的一個狀況之下能夠被看見為什麼不欣然接受那我也是這樣的心情就是做一個默默耕耘的教育工作者當有人來找我們當政務官人民的託付選我們出來當立法委員我們為什麼不好好的做這份工作來回饋這個社會\n\n02:29.526 --> 02:45.716\n所以我這樣子提的原因是想要跟您就教一下因為您這樣的背景同時我看到您目前是最高法院民事大法庭的法官所以你對土地的議題應該是非常的熟悉對吧會承辦到土地相關的案件\n\n02:51.414 --> 03:16.534\n那因為我們原住民我這幾年做立委的工作我發現我們最在乎的議題也是土地那我看到你其實在108年度有一個台上大字地1636號的裁定這個你應該非常熟悉吧是關於什麼樣的內容因為有時候暗號太多了\n\n03:17.151 --> 03:17.892\n像今年二月\n\n03:33.390 --> 03:54.648\n媒體有披露一個關於原保地的新聞就是提到在苗栗縣泰安鄉有一個當地的原住民的鄉民代表他花了九百萬買了十三筆土地然後去設定抵押兩億元給共同開發的一個有中資的開發商\n\n03:56.229 --> 04:24.541\n然後說蓋的是當地溫泉區的一個五星級飯店我想請教你就你的食物訴訟經驗來看這樣的一個超額抵押的情形通常會發生在什麼樣的狀況這樣的一個就是一個很具體的問題我可能要看就是要要透過那個所有的市政我才能夠做判斷我沒有辦法直接這樣回答\n\n04:25.254 --> 04:52.667\n我來說提醒你一下因為對我們所謂的原保地的借民登記通常就是類似這樣的一個狀況他可能用500萬元價值的土地但是他就設定抵押1億元這樣的狀況層次不窮就是你永遠還不起的一種借貸關係等於你把你所有的權力都讓不給他了\n\n04:53.487 --> 05:11.094\n所以呢雖然名字是我的但是呢實際上這筆土地已經是對方的嘛所以呢我們對於這個110年9月17號所做出的這個1636號裁定其實對我們原住民來講非常的振奮因為這個上面寫著說\n\n05:12.515 --> 05:34.847\n非原住民已借民登記簽訂買賣契約設定地上權及所有權移轉等行為違反法律的禁止規定依民法第七十一條應屬無效所以我想要來先請教您就是你們在合議庭做出這個裁定它的關鍵原因是什麼\n\n05:36.281 --> 05:51.408\n這個就是說其實那個元寶地他當時的立法其實是為了原住民的生計所以很多原住民就會基於經濟的考量去做一些利用但是他就是說基於那個其實\n\n05:52.208 --> 06:09.678\n原住民土地應該是包括這一塊而必須要受到重視的所以如果我們內建他其實有一個前提也就是說當他今天是做一個脫法行為然後就是說表面上看起來沒有怎麼樣可是實際上他就是要去\n\n06:11.356 --> 06:38.941\n迂迴的去迴避說應該要把這個原保地保留給原住民這樣的一個意旨的時候我們認為這樣是不可以的那我其實我們感到很振奮的就是其實這樣的一個說明非常的清楚因為提到就是違反法律的禁止規定因為在原開辦法裡面其實寫得很清楚原住民就是限制原住民之間買賣\n\n06:40.582 --> 06:41.448\n所以呢就是\n\n06:42.523 --> 07:12.223\n如果他现在的行为买卖的行为他就是法律白纸黑字上面是不允许做的即便花多少钱去买不是你的就不是你的所以我们觉得刚提到说违反法律的禁止规定的时候移民法第七十一条应属无效我们觉得这样的一个裁定非常的明确也没有可以辩驳的空间所以我们都觉得很棒但是我就是要提到说既然民事大法庭\n\n07:12.823 --> 07:25.775\n已經做出裁定了統一的法律見解所以理想上來說應該是行政部門行政機關立法部門或者是私人民眾應該都可以跟著這個裁定走沒錯吧\n\n07:27.574 --> 07:55.482\n但是很遺憾你看從110年9月17號有這個裁定到現在四年的時間我們還是看到原住民族的土地仍然透過各種規避法律鑽漏洞的方式就是我們的土地呢就是不斷的在流失而且學者學界他已經有做過一個保守的估計大概目前私有原保地11萬公頃多\n\n07:57.242 --> 08:19.441\n至少一半都已經流落在非原住民的手中所以根本防不勝防所以我想要就教就是您就是被提名人如果您過去擔任民事大法官多年的專業角度就是除了訴訟以外在這個裁定基礎上有沒有更積極的做法可以從源頭來解決這個問題\n\n08:22.125 --> 08:46.362\n我想這個問題的面向太多端了因為司法上面的關係很多都是透過契約的行為所以就審判來講我們只能透過事實去認定他是不是脫法行為這件事情去界定他至於其他在行政上面有沒有什麼樣的方式可以去做\n\n08:47.486 --> 08:59.229\n就是去防範這些事情我想這個可能就要進一步讓行政部門去做處理這樣子所以您認為是行政機關處理而不是透過立法\n\n09:00.458 --> 09:18.761\n立法的話這個當然也就是立法要用什麼樣的方式定到什麼樣的程度那這個當然也是立法材料的問題當然現在原保地我們的法源叫做原住民保留地開發辦法那它的上位有一個叫山坡地保育利用條例\n\n09:19.542 --> 09:44.642\n所以像原保地他是開發辦法這樣的法律位階他其實沒有辦法能夠去承擔民事大法庭的裁定也沒有辦法符合你剛剛講的就是符合憲法增修條文第十條第十一項他所揭示的您剛剛特別提到就是原保地是原住民文化經濟最關鍵的基礎載體如果土地都流失了文化怎麼傳承\n\n09:45.743 --> 10:13.433\n原住民經濟自立要怎麼實現這個也是當初這個判決的一個很重要的意旨所以提升法律慰藉有沒有他的必要我覺得這個是可以就是可以用這樣的方式因為其實整個原住民包括就是他的傳統領域權這樣的一個整個的界定他是不是除了公有地之外也應該包括私有地我想這個應該做一個是整體的去所以\n\n10:14.153 --> 10:29.145\n所以我就是要提醒目前保護原住民土地的法可以說是零所以我們非常需要一步關於原住民族土地保留地傳統領域的專法或者是專章\n\n10:30.587 --> 10:48.008\n讓土地他被保護的規範可以更明確權責更清楚避免了被目前這些專法律漏洞的這些變相手段來侵蝕所以今天你作為大法官的被庭名人我希望如果你未來獲得大法官\n\n10:49.428 --> 11:15.078\n這個憲法守護者這個重要的職務那面對像我們原住民目前有很多的立法空白或者是權力侵蝕的地方我希望你能夠支持並且承諾未來如果再做釋憲或者是審查相關的案件能夠持續你過去在民事大法庭對原住民族的支持來去做保障跟法治化讓原住民的\n\n11:16.238 --> 11:42.049\n這個權利可以在憲法層級獲得真正的尊重跟實踐您做得到嗎可以好謝謝那另外最近也有一個很重要的判決我也想要來請教您的意見就是在上上週最高行政法院有做出一個487號的判決那意思就是說他們對於目前的傳統領域劃設辦法說\n\n11:44.890 --> 12:13.642\n要把原住民族的傳統領域僅限於公有地他說逾越原基法第21條第4項授權的目的跟範圍並對於原基法第20條政府所承認的原住民族土地權利及21條第一項所賦予原住民族的諮商同意程序權增加法律所無的限制也就是違反法律保留原則\n\n12:14.762 --> 12:34.818\n為什麼這個很重要因為我不知道您知不知道蔡英文總統2016年上任之後的隔年2月14號那個時候公布傳統領域畫色辦法結果呢就是把原住民的傳統領域僅限於公有地引起嘩然甚至有一個\n\n12:35.558 --> 13:01.746\n捍衛土地的著名歌手巴奈他在凱道上抗爭2644天就為了抗議這個發射辦法的不足不對所以呢這樣的一個114年6月25號出來的判決對原住民來講真的是長期的一個訴求獲得了一個回應為什麼因為他說得很清楚\n\n13:02.746 --> 13:26.801\n這本來就是很簡單的道理他違反了法律保留原則原基法他又沒有把傳統領域分公私有因為那是過去的傳統領域可是我們的行政機關卻用位階比較低的劃設辦法去限於說傳統領域只能有工有地所以我為什麼要特別來強調這一點就是想要救教你啊\n\n13:27.522 --> 13:31.600\n就是這個最高行政法院判決的效力怎麼樣是個案還是通案\n\n13:33.971 --> 14:03.706\n我想他是個個案沒錯但是他所闡述的這個理念是可以引起大家來共鳴或者是討論的那我基本上是同意這樣的見解因為我也認為就是原住民跟他的土地之間傳統的土地是有深層的精神聯繫的那因此經過很多原民運動才爭取到的那個傳統領域權這件事情應該要包括所謂的公有地跟私有地\n\n14:03.746 --> 14:04.227\n是否都應該要參考這個見解\n\n14:21.887 --> 14:37.633\n這個部分因為大概涉及到原住民的那個諮商同意權所以這部分應該都是行政法院的那個就是行政法院他們細數的案件所以我才特別要來問最高刑如果有這樣的一個見解對他們的下級法院應該會產生一定的影響力\n\n14:39.147 --> 15:03.484\n我為什麼特別要問因為我們都覺得這個判決非常重要為什麼因為它涉及到原基法第21條諮商同意權的適用範圍其實諮商同意原基法在訂定它是為了要去落實聯合國原住民權利宣言當中所提到的自由事前知情同意也就是所謂的FPIC原則\n\n15:04.585 --> 15:26.750\n所以我們的中華民國憲法徵修條文第十條也有明定國家應該保障原住民族的土地權利但是現在的實務就是看到如果這些開發是在私有土地他就會繞過去去避免跟部落溝通這樣的一個義務所以我們知道這個爭端其實是來自於說\n\n15:28.090 --> 15:52.397\n對於私有財產權現有的法律現在的法律對私有財產權的保障所以我要特別請教一下被提名人國家在哪些情況下可以限制人民的私有財產國家在什麼樣的情況下可能要看具體的情況也就是代替通勤權就是看具體的情況用法律去規定他都市計劃區段徵收\n\n15:57.277 --> 16:22.796\n所以這些都是法律容許的嘛一定程度的介入限制嘛所以其實是有的嘛對不對法律是可以嘛所以我請教就是如果我們按照我們剛剛講的聯合國FBIC這個核心原則事前知情同意跟剛才我講的那些手段對人民的損害程度是不是明顯小很多\n\n16:24.455 --> 16:48.098\n我想這個諮商同意權的這個部分應該要落實落實先諮商然後再同意參與我想這個應該就可以解決這樣的問題所以我就是想要請教就是說在私有的土地上面建行所謂的事前同意事前同意它是否必然等同侵害了人民的私有財產權\n\n16:49.090 --> 17:17.897\n我想這個應該不是吧因為原基法本來就有規定原住民土地是包括這一塊的好謝謝因為我們也都這麼覺得所以我在這個地方就是說事前之前同一制度的設計其實只是為了讓國家的法律不要忽視我們很強調的原住民族是先於國家的集體土地權這個很重要而不是去侵害任何個人的權益所以\n\n17:18.317 --> 17:47.529\n他只是反映出我們國家一個非常核心而且長久存在的問題就是原住民族土地的集體權跟國家以私有財產權為治理基礎這個兩個之間有很多的衝突有很多的想像跟不明確所以我請教就是您是否認為在原住民族土地上即便那個土地是屬於私有也應該要遵守事前知情同意這種基本權利對不對\n\n17:48.562 --> 18:09.792\n這個我是贊成的謝謝您吼那這樣的一個機制吼不應該我們都把它簡化說哎呀會侵犯私有財產權應該是我們反而是要去透過好的一個制度設計去保障原住民的集體權利跟尊重個人財產權之間我相信你也同意吧\n\n18:10.732 --> 18:30.978\n因為我覺得這個是原住民自覺權的一部分所以我現在就是請教就是你作為一個法律專業者我很想要請教你就是你怎麼樣去從制度的一個角度去實現這個平衡我希望你未來做大法官你能夠往這個地方去努力嗎\n\n18:33.937 --> 18:45.007\n我希望你可以往這個方向努力那因為時間的關係我最後一個議題來請教您我先跟您說這個是關於選區劃分選制的問題\n\n18:49.270 --> 19:15.763\n像上一次的地方選舉2022年在新北市有一個原住民族人他想要去選新北市的議員但是呢就是被駁回那被駁回的理由其實也很簡單啦因為就說你可以選但是你必須要放棄你的原住民族身份那我不曉得說你對於這樣的一個法律見解是什麼\n\n19:17.901 --> 19:33.789\n因為這件事情事實本身我並不是很了解但是我初步聽起來這個應該是被選舉權的行使跟原住民身份權之間的保障兩個之間的問題\n\n19:35.370 --> 19:53.523\n他被中選會根據選罷法撤銷他的資格那內政部是這樣回應就是說如果原住民去選這個的時候會衝擊到非原住民的參選權益這個需要社會共識那這個明明我們憲法第17條是人民有選舉罷免創制及複決權這個能不能主張違憲\n\n19:59.686 --> 20:15.343\n這個我要看具體的情況我是這樣子想這本末倒置因為如果我們去看我們的憲法增修條文他其實是保障我們的基本席次他不是限制我們的參政權他只是保障席次\n\n20:15.683 --> 20:41.077\n他去他並沒有去提所以這個部分他也會去牽涉到為什麼我們去講這個問題因為我們現在原住民的選區也有過大的問題那這個部分其實也因為時間不夠的關係我希望未來如果有機會我希望那些問題你都能夠好好的來思考那因為我們有一個共同的目標就是我們要遵守憲法這是我們共同的目\n\n20:45.184 --> 21:01.271\n那也希望這是我們原住民最後一道防線我們原住民最後在這個國家體制下最後的依賴就是我們的憲法那我希望你們會對憲法保障享受的權利好不好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":16.347,"end":22.692,"text":"謝謝主席有請被提名人曾法官麻煩被提名人曾法官再次說明"},{"start":35.965,"end":52.003,"text":"背題名人您好我有特別看了一下您送出來的簡歷資料了解說您也是從基層出生並不是出自於達官險要的家庭"},{"start":52.964,"end":73.657,"text":"那這個部分其實我相信對一個法官來講整個人格的養成還有學術的養成其實這個背景是非常重要的那我看到您那個時代大概也是只能夠靠教育翻身所以你有特別提到你透過讀書考上了北一女"},{"start":74.534,"end":100.509,"text":"高雄公專 女士專我其實背景跟您也差不多就是來自山區非常底層的家庭也是透過讀書考上台南女中高雄公專 屏東師專但是我們的家庭做出不同的選擇你的父母鼓勵你讀高中你成為一名法官我的父母則是鼓勵我去讀師專"},{"start":101.79,"end":124.309,"text":"成為一個老師校長特別是您有提到很多人這段時間都會去問您說為什麼你會接受大法官的一個提名你有提到因為你覺得你默默的從事這樣這麼多的案子的審判甚至我看到你勇於提出很多的不同意見書"},{"start":125.61,"end":148.025,"text":"所以你覺得這樣子默默工作在司法過勞的一個狀況之下能夠被看見為什麼不欣然接受那我也是這樣的心情就是做一個默默耕耘的教育工作者當有人來找我們當政務官人民的託付選我們出來當立法委員我們為什麼不好好的做這份工作來回饋這個社會"},{"start":149.526,"end":165.716,"text":"所以我這樣子提的原因是想要跟您就教一下因為您這樣的背景同時我看到您目前是最高法院民事大法庭的法官所以你對土地的議題應該是非常的熟悉對吧會承辦到土地相關的案件"},{"start":171.414,"end":196.534,"text":"那因為我們原住民我這幾年做立委的工作我發現我們最在乎的議題也是土地那我看到你其實在108年度有一個台上大字地1636號的裁定這個你應該非常熟悉吧是關於什麼樣的內容因為有時候暗號太多了"},{"start":197.151,"end":197.892,"text":"像今年二月"},{"start":213.39,"end":234.648,"text":"媒體有披露一個關於原保地的新聞就是提到在苗栗縣泰安鄉有一個當地的原住民的鄉民代表他花了九百萬買了十三筆土地然後去設定抵押兩億元給共同開發的一個有中資的開發商"},{"start":236.229,"end":264.541,"text":"然後說蓋的是當地溫泉區的一個五星級飯店我想請教你就你的食物訴訟經驗來看這樣的一個超額抵押的情形通常會發生在什麼樣的狀況這樣的一個就是一個很具體的問題我可能要看就是要要透過那個所有的市政我才能夠做判斷我沒有辦法直接這樣回答"},{"start":265.254,"end":292.667,"text":"我來說提醒你一下因為對我們所謂的原保地的借民登記通常就是類似這樣的一個狀況他可能用500萬元價值的土地但是他就設定抵押1億元這樣的狀況層次不窮就是你永遠還不起的一種借貸關係等於你把你所有的權力都讓不給他了"},{"start":293.487,"end":311.094,"text":"所以呢雖然名字是我的但是呢實際上這筆土地已經是對方的嘛所以呢我們對於這個110年9月17號所做出的這個1636號裁定其實對我們原住民來講非常的振奮因為這個上面寫著說"},{"start":312.515,"end":334.847,"text":"非原住民已借民登記簽訂買賣契約設定地上權及所有權移轉等行為違反法律的禁止規定依民法第七十一條應屬無效所以我想要來先請教您就是你們在合議庭做出這個裁定它的關鍵原因是什麼"},{"start":336.281,"end":351.408,"text":"這個就是說其實那個元寶地他當時的立法其實是為了原住民的生計所以很多原住民就會基於經濟的考量去做一些利用但是他就是說基於那個其實"},{"start":352.208,"end":369.678,"text":"原住民土地應該是包括這一塊而必須要受到重視的所以如果我們內建他其實有一個前提也就是說當他今天是做一個脫法行為然後就是說表面上看起來沒有怎麼樣可是實際上他就是要去"},{"start":371.356,"end":398.941,"text":"迂迴的去迴避說應該要把這個原保地保留給原住民這樣的一個意旨的時候我們認為這樣是不可以的那我其實我們感到很振奮的就是其實這樣的一個說明非常的清楚因為提到就是違反法律的禁止規定因為在原開辦法裡面其實寫得很清楚原住民就是限制原住民之間買賣"},{"start":400.582,"end":401.448,"text":"所以呢 就是"},{"start":402.523,"end":432.223,"text":"如果他现在的行为买卖的行为他就是法律白纸黑字上面是不允许做的即便花多少钱去买不是你的就不是你的所以我们觉得刚提到说违反法律的禁止规定的时候移民法第七十一条应属无效我们觉得这样的一个裁定非常的明确也没有可以辩驳的空间所以我们都觉得很棒但是我就是要提到说既然民事大法庭"},{"start":432.823,"end":445.775,"text":"已經做出裁定了統一的法律見解所以理想上來說應該是行政部門行政機關立法部門或者是私人民眾應該都可以跟著這個裁定走沒錯吧"},{"start":447.574,"end":475.482,"text":"但是很遺憾你看從110年9月17號有這個裁定到現在四年的時間我們還是看到原住民族的土地仍然透過各種規避法律鑽漏洞的方式就是我們的土地呢就是不斷的在流失而且學者學界他已經有做過一個保守的估計大概目前私有原保地11萬公頃多"},{"start":477.242,"end":499.441,"text":"至少一半都已經流落在非原住民的手中所以根本防不勝防所以我想要就教就是您就是被提名人如果您過去擔任民事大法官多年的專業角度就是除了訴訟以外在這個裁定基礎上有沒有更積極的做法可以從源頭來解決這個問題"},{"start":502.125,"end":526.362,"text":"我想這個問題的面向太多端了因為司法上面的關係很多都是透過契約的行為所以就審判來講我們只能透過事實去認定他是不是脫法行為這件事情去界定他至於其他在行政上面有沒有什麼樣的方式可以去做"},{"start":527.486,"end":539.229,"text":"就是去防範這些事情我想這個可能就要進一步讓行政部門去做處理這樣子所以您認為是行政機關處理而不是透過立法"},{"start":540.458,"end":558.761,"text":"立法的話這個當然也就是立法要用什麼樣的方式定到什麼樣的程度那這個當然也是立法材料的問題當然現在原保地我們的法源叫做原住民保留地開發辦法那它的上位有一個叫山坡地保育利用條例"},{"start":559.542,"end":584.642,"text":"所以像原保地他是開發辦法這樣的法律位階他其實沒有辦法能夠去承擔民事大法庭的裁定也沒有辦法符合你剛剛講的就是符合憲法增修條文第十條第十一項他所揭示的您剛剛特別提到就是原保地是原住民文化經濟最關鍵的基礎載體如果土地都流失了文化怎麼傳承"},{"start":585.743,"end":613.433,"text":"原住民經濟自立要怎麼實現這個也是當初這個判決的一個很重要的意旨所以提升法律慰藉有沒有他的必要我覺得這個是可以就是可以用這樣的方式因為其實整個原住民包括就是他的傳統領域權這樣的一個整個的界定他是不是除了公有地之外也應該包括私有地我想這個應該做一個是整體的去所以"},{"start":614.153,"end":629.145,"text":"所以我就是要提醒目前保護原住民土地的法可以說是零所以我們非常需要一步關於原住民族土地保留地傳統領域的專法或者是專章"},{"start":630.587,"end":648.008,"text":"讓土地他被保護的規範可以更明確權責更清楚避免了被目前這些專法律漏洞的這些變相手段來侵蝕所以今天你作為大法官的被庭名人我希望如果你未來獲得大法官"},{"start":649.428,"end":675.078,"text":"這個憲法守護者這個重要的職務那面對像我們原住民目前有很多的立法空白或者是權力侵蝕的地方我希望你能夠支持並且承諾未來如果再做釋憲或者是審查相關的案件能夠持續你過去在民事大法庭對原住民族的支持來去做保障跟法治化讓原住民的"},{"start":676.238,"end":702.049,"text":"這個權利可以在憲法層級獲得真正的尊重跟實踐您做得到嗎可以好 謝謝那另外最近也有一個很重要的判決我也想要來請教您的意見就是在上上週最高行政法院有做出一個487號的判決那意思就是說他們對於目前的傳統領域劃設辦法說"},{"start":704.89,"end":733.642,"text":"要把原住民族的傳統領域僅限於公有地他說逾越原基法第21條第4項授權的目的跟範圍並對於原基法第20條政府所承認的原住民族土地權利及21條第一項所賦予原住民族的諮商同意程序權增加法律所無的限制也就是違反法律保留原則"},{"start":734.762,"end":754.818,"text":"為什麼這個很重要因為我不知道您知不知道蔡英文總統2016年上任之後的隔年2月14號那個時候公布傳統領域畫色辦法結果呢就是把原住民的傳統領域僅限於公有地引起嘩然甚至有一個"},{"start":755.558,"end":781.746,"text":"捍衛土地的著名歌手巴奈他在凱道上抗爭2644天就為了抗議這個發射辦法的不足不對所以呢這樣的一個114年6月25號出來的判決對原住民來講真的是長期的一個訴求獲得了一個回應為什麼因為他說得很清楚"},{"start":782.746,"end":806.801,"text":"這本來就是很簡單的道理他違反了法律保留原則原基法他又沒有把傳統領域分公私有因為那是過去的傳統領域可是我們的行政機關卻用位階比較低的劃設辦法去限於說傳統領域只能有工有地所以我為什麼要特別來強調這一點就是想要救教你啊"},{"start":807.522,"end":811.6,"text":"就是這個最高行政法院判決的效力怎麼樣是個案還是通案"},{"start":813.971,"end":843.706,"text":"我想他是個個案沒錯但是他所闡述的這個理念是可以引起大家來共鳴或者是討論的那我基本上是同意這樣的見解因為我也認為就是原住民跟他的土地之間傳統的土地是有深層的精神聯繫的那因此經過很多原民運動才爭取到的那個傳統領域權這件事情應該要包括所謂的公有地跟私有地"},{"start":843.746,"end":844.227,"text":"是否都應該要參考這個見解"},{"start":861.887,"end":877.633,"text":"這個部分因為大概涉及到原住民的那個諮商同意權所以這部分應該都是行政法院的那個就是行政法院他們細數的案件所以我才特別要來問最高刑如果有這樣的一個見解對他們的下級法院應該會產生一定的影響力"},{"start":879.147,"end":903.484,"text":"我為什麼特別要問因為我們都覺得這個判決非常重要為什麼因為它涉及到原基法第21條諮商同意權的適用範圍其實諮商同意原基法在訂定它是為了要去落實聯合國原住民權利宣言當中所提到的自由事前知情同意也就是所謂的FPIC原則"},{"start":904.585,"end":926.75,"text":"所以我們的中華民國憲法徵修條文第十條也有明定國家應該保障原住民族的土地權利但是現在的實務就是看到如果這些開發是在私有土地他就會繞過去去避免跟部落溝通這樣的一個義務所以我們知道這個爭端其實是來自於說"},{"start":928.09,"end":952.397,"text":"對於私有財產權現有的法律現在的法律對私有財產權的保障所以我要特別請教一下被提名人國家在哪些情況下可以限制人民的私有財產國家在什麼樣的情況下可能要看具體的情況也就是代替通勤權就是看具體的情況用法律去規定他都市計劃區段徵收"},{"start":957.277,"end":982.796,"text":"所以這些都是法律容許的嘛一定程度的介入限制嘛所以其實是有的嘛對不對法律是可以嘛所以我請教就是如果我們按照我們剛剛講的聯合國FBIC這個核心原則事前知情同意跟剛才我講的那些手段對人民的損害程度是不是明顯小很多"},{"start":984.455,"end":1008.098,"text":"我想這個諮商同意權的這個部分應該要落實落實先諮商然後再同意參與我想這個應該就可以解決這樣的問題所以我就是想要請教就是說在私有的土地上面建行所謂的事前同意事前同意它是否必然等同侵害了人民的私有財產權"},{"start":1009.09,"end":1037.897,"text":"我想這個應該不是吧因為原基法本來就有規定原住民土地是包括這一塊的好謝謝因為我們也都這麼覺得所以我在這個地方就是說事前之前同一制度的設計其實只是為了讓國家的法律不要忽視我們很強調的原住民族是先於國家的集體土地權這個很重要而不是去侵害任何個人的權益所以"},{"start":1038.317,"end":1067.529,"text":"他只是反映出我們國家一個非常核心而且長久存在的問題就是原住民族土地的集體權跟國家以私有財產權為治理基礎這個兩個之間有很多的衝突有很多的想像跟不明確所以我請教就是您是否認為在原住民族土地上即便那個土地是屬於私有也應該要遵守事前知情同意這種基本權利對不對"},{"start":1068.562,"end":1089.792,"text":"這個我是贊成的謝謝您吼那這樣的一個機制吼不應該我們都把它簡化說哎呀會侵犯私有財產權應該是我們反而是要去透過好的一個制度設計去保障原住民的集體權利跟尊重個人財產權之間我相信你也同意吧"},{"start":1090.732,"end":1110.978,"text":"因為我覺得這個是原住民自覺權的一部分所以我現在就是請教就是你作為一個法律專業者我很想要請教你就是你怎麼樣去從制度的一個角度去實現這個平衡我希望你未來做大法官你能夠往這個地方去努力嗎"},{"start":1113.937,"end":1125.007,"text":"我希望你可以往這個方向努力那因為時間的關係我最後一個議題來請教您我先跟您說這個是關於選區劃分選制的問題"},{"start":1129.27,"end":1155.763,"text":"像上一次的地方選舉2022年在新北市有一個原住民族人他想要去選新北市的議員但是呢就是被駁回那被駁回的理由其實也很簡單啦因為就說你可以選但是你必須要放棄你的原住民族身份那我不曉得說你對於這樣的一個法律見解是什麼"},{"start":1157.901,"end":1173.789,"text":"因為這件事情事實本身我並不是很了解但是我初步聽起來這個應該是被選舉權的行使跟原住民身份權之間的保障兩個之間的問題"},{"start":1175.37,"end":1193.523,"text":"他被中選會根據選罷法撤銷他的資格那內政部是這樣回應就是說如果原住民去選這個的時候會衝擊到非原住民的參選權益這個需要社會共識那這個明明我們憲法第17條是人民有選舉罷免創制及複決權這個能不能主張違憲"},{"start":1199.686,"end":1215.343,"text":"這個我要看具體的情況我是這樣子想這本末倒置因為如果我們去看我們的憲法增修條文他其實是保障我們的基本席次他不是限制我們的參政權他只是保障席次"},{"start":1215.683,"end":1241.077,"text":"他去他並沒有去提所以這個部分他也會去牽涉到為什麼我們去講這個問題因為我們現在原住民的選區也有過大的問題那這個部分其實也因為時間不夠的關係我希望未來如果有機會我希望那些問題你都能夠好好的來思考那因為我們有一個共同的目標就是我們要遵守憲法這是我們共同的目"},{"start":1245.184,"end":1261.271,"text":"那也希望這是我們原住民最後一道防線我們原住民最後在這個國家體制下最後的依賴就是我們的憲法那我希望你們會對憲法保障享受的權利好不好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（14時30分）謝謝主席。有請被提名人鄭法官。"],["主席：麻煩被提名人鄭法官再次說明。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：被提名人您好。"],["鄭純惠被提名人：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我有特別看了一下您送出來的簡歷資料，瞭解您也是從基層出身，並不是出自於達官顯耀的家庭，我相信這個部分對一個法官來講，整個人格還有學術的養成，這個背景其實是非常重要的。我看到您那個時代，大概也是只能夠靠教育翻身，所以你有特別提到你透過讀書考上了北一女、高雄工專、女師專。我其實背景跟您也差不多，就是來自山區非常底層的家庭，也是透過讀書考上臺南女中、高雄工專、屏東師專。但是我們的家庭做出不同的選擇，你的父母鼓勵你讀高中，你成為一名法官；我的父母則是鼓勵我去讀師專，成為一個老師、校長。","特別是您有提到，很多人在這段時間都會去問您為什麼會接受大法官的提名？你有提到因為覺得默默地從事這麼多案子的審判，甚至我看到你勇於提出很多的不同意見書，所以你覺得這樣子默默工作，在司法過勞的狀況之下，能夠被看見，為什麼不欣然接受？我也是這樣的心情，就是做一個默默耕耘的教育工作者，當有人來找我們當政務官，人民託付選我們出來當立法委員，我們為什麼不好好地做這份工作，來回饋社會？我這樣子提的原因，是想要跟您就教一下，因為您這樣的背景，同時我看到您目前是最高法院民事大法庭的法官，所以你對土地的議題應該是非常地熟悉，對吧？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：會承辦到土地相關的案件。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為我們原住民……我這幾年做立委的工作，我發現我們最在乎的議題也是土地，我看到你在108年度有一個臺上大字第1636號的裁定，這個你應該非常熟悉吧？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：是關於什麼樣內容？因為有時候案號太多。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這個對我們原住民來講是一個很重大的裁定，就是對原保地借名登記無效，這樣您想起來了嗎？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這是您做的裁定嗎？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：不是我主筆。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我請教您，像今年2月媒體有披露一個關於原保地的新聞，就是提到在苗栗縣泰安鄉有一個當地的原住民鄉民代表，他花了900萬買了13筆土地，去設定抵押2億元給共同開發具中資的開發商，然後蓋的是當地溫泉區的一個五星級飯店。我想請教你，就你的實務訴訟經驗來看，這樣一個超額抵押的情形，通常會發生在什麼樣的狀況？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：這是一個很具體的問題，我可能要透過所有的事證才能夠做判斷，我沒有辦法直接這樣回答。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我來提醒你一下，因為對所謂的原保地借名登記，通常就是類似這樣的狀況，他可能用價值500萬元的土地，但是他就設定抵押1億元，這樣的狀況層出不窮，就是你永遠還不起的一種借貸關係，等於把你所有的權利都讓渡給他了，雖然名字是我的，但是實際上這筆土地已經是對方的，所以我們對於110年9月17號所做出的第1636號裁定，其實對我們原住民來講非常地振奮，因為上面寫著非原住民以借名登記簽訂買賣契約、設定地上權及所有權移轉等行為，違反法律的禁止規定，依民法第七十一條應屬無效。所以我想要先請教您，你們在合議庭做出這個裁定，它的關鍵原因是什麼？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：就是原保地當時的立法其實是為了原住民的生計，所以很多原住民就會基於經濟的考量去做一些利用，但是其實原住民土地應該是包括這一塊而必須要受到重視的，所以我們那一件其實有一個前提，也就是說當他今天做一個脫法行為，表面上看起來沒有怎麼樣，可是實際上他就是要迂迴地去迴避應該要把原保地保留給原住民的意旨時，我們認為這樣是不可以的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們感到很振奮的就是，其實這樣的一個說明是非常地清楚，因為提到違反法律的禁止規定，因為在原開辦法裡面其實寫得很清楚，原保地就是限制原住民之間買賣，所以如果他現在的買賣行為，就是法律白紙黑字上面是不允許做的，即便花多少錢去買，不是你的就不是你的，所以我們覺得剛剛提到違反法律的禁止規定時，依民法第七十一條應屬無效，我們覺得這樣的裁定非常地明確，也沒有可以辯駁的空間，所以我們都覺得很棒，但是我就是要提到說，既然民事大法庭已經做出裁定，統一了法律見解，所以理想上行政部門、行政機關、立法部門或私人、民眾應該都可以跟著這個裁定走，沒錯吧？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：但是很遺憾，你看從110年9月17號有這個裁定，到現在4年的時間，我們還是看到原住民族的土地，仍然透過各種規避法律鑽漏洞的方式，我們的土地就是不斷地在流失，而且學者、學界已經有做過一個保守的估計，大概以目前私有原保地十一萬公頃多，至少一半都已經流落在非原住民的手中，根本防不勝防。所以我想要就教被提名人您，如果像您過去擔任民事大法官多年的專業角度，除了訴訟以外，在這個裁定基礎上有沒有更積極的做法，可以從源頭來解決這個問題？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：我想這個問題的面向太多端了，因為司法上面的關係很多都是透過契約的行為，所以就審判來講，我們只能透過事實去認定是不是脫法行為的這件事情去界定他，至於其他在行政上面有沒有什麼樣的方式可以去防範這些事情，我想這個可能要進一步讓行政部門去做處理，就司法的角色……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以您認為是行政機關處理，而不是透過立法？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：立法的話，當然立法要用什麼樣的方式、定到什麼樣的程度，這個當然也是立法裁量的問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：現在原保地的法源叫做原住民保留地開發管理辦法，它的上位有一個山坡地保育利用條例，所以像原保地是開發辦法這樣的法律位階，其實沒有辦法能夠去承擔民事大法庭的裁定，也沒有辦法符合你剛剛講的憲法增修條文第十條第十一項所揭示的，您剛剛特別提到原保地是原住民文化經濟最關鍵的基礎載體，如果土地都流失了，文化怎麼傳承，原住民經濟自立要怎麼實現？這也是當初這個判決的一個很重要的意旨，所以有沒有必要提升法律位階？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：我覺得可以用這樣的方式，因為其實原住民包括他的傳統領域權這樣一整個的界定，是不是除了公有地之外，也應該包括私有地，我想應該做整體的檢討。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以我要提醒，目前保護原住民土地的法可以說是零，我們非常需要一部關於原住民族土地保留地傳統領域的專法或者是專章，讓土地被保護的規範可以更明確，權責更清楚，避免被目前這些鑽法律漏洞的變相手段侵蝕。","今天你作為大法官的被提名人，我希望如果你未來獲得大法官憲法守護者這個重要的職務，面對像我們原住民目前有很多的立法空白，或者是權利侵蝕的地方，我希望你能夠支持，並且承諾未來如果在做釋憲或者是審查相關的案件，能夠持續你過去在民事大法庭對原住民族的支持來做保障跟法制化，讓原住民的權利可以在憲法層級獲得真正的尊重跟實踐，您做得到嗎？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：可以。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。另外最近也有一個很重要的判決，我也想要來請教您的意見，在上上周最高行政法院有做出一個第487號的判決，意思就是對於目前的傳統領域劃設辦法把原住民族的傳統領域僅限於公有地，它說逾越原基法第二十一條第四項授權的目的跟範圍，並對於原基法第二十條政府所承認的原住民族土地權利，及第二十一條第一項所賦與原住民族的諮商同意程序權，增加法律所無的限制，也就是違反法律保留原則。","為什麼這個很重要？我不知道您知不知道，蔡英文總統2016年上任之後的隔年2月14日公布傳統領域劃設辦法，結果就是把原住民的傳統領域僅限於公有地，引起譁然，甚至有一個捍衛土地的著名歌手巴奈，他在凱道上抗爭2,644天，就為了抗議劃設辦法的不足、不對，所以這份114年6月25日出來的判決，對原住民來講真的是長期的訴求獲得了回應，為什麼？因為它說得很清楚，這本來就是很簡單的道理，它違反了法律保留原則，原基法又沒有把傳統領域分公、私有，因為那是過去的傳統領域，可是行政機關卻用位階比較低的劃設辦法限制傳統領域只能公有地，我為什麼要特別強調這一點？就是想要就教你，這個最高行政法院判決的效力是個案還是通案？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：我想它是個案沒錯，但是它所闡述的理念可以引起大家共鳴或者是討論，我基本上同意這樣的見解，因為我也認為原住民跟他的傳統土地是有深層的精神聯繫，因此經過很多原民運動才爭取到傳統領域權這件事情，應該要包括所謂的公有地跟私有地，這樣才可以。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝，所以就您所知，如果以後法院再審理類似的爭議，因為現在很多人開發土地都選擇私有地，所以經常有很多的爭端、爭議，是否都應該要參考這個見解？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：這個部分因為涉及到原住民的諮商同意權，所以應該都是行政法院繫屬的案件。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以我才特別問。"],["鄭純惠被提名人：所以最高行如果有這樣的見解，對他們的下級法院應該會產生一定的影響力。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我為什麼特別要問？因為我們都覺得這個判決非常重要，為什麼？因為它涉及到原基法第二十一條諮商同意權的適用範圍，其實原基法在訂定「諮商同意」，它是為了要去落實聯合國原住民權利宣言當中所提到的自由、事前、知情同意，也就是所謂的FPIC原則。所以我們的中華民國憲法增修條文第十條也有明定，國家應該保障原住民族的土地權利。但是現在的實務就是看到，如果這些開發是在私有土地，他就會繞過去，去避免跟部落溝通這樣的一個義務，所以我們知道這個爭端其實是來自於說，對於私有財產權，現有的法律、現在的法律對私有財產權的保障。所以我要特別請教一下被提名人，國家在哪些情況下可以限制人民的私有財產？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：國家在什麼樣的情況下，可能要看具體的情況，也就是他……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：袋地通行權……"],["鄭純惠被提名人：就是看具體的情況，用法律去規定他。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：都市計畫、區段徵收，這些都算不算？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：如果是法條規定就可以，就是要符合憲法第二十三條的比例原則。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以這些都是法律容許的嘛！一定程度的介入限制嘛！所以其實是有的，對不對？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：法律是可以嘛！所以我請教，如果我們按照剛剛講的聯合國FPIC這個核心原則，事前知情同意跟剛才我講的那一些手段，對人民的損害程度，是不是明顯小很多？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：對，我想諮商同意權的部分應該要落實，就是落實先諮商，然後再同意參與，應該就可以解決這樣的問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以我就是想要請教，就是說在私有的土地上面踐行所謂的事前同意，是否必然等同侵害了人民的私有財產權？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：我想這個應該不是吧，因為原基法本來就有規定原住民土地是包括這一塊的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝！因為我們也都這麼覺得，所以就是說事前知情同意制度的設計，其實只是為了讓國家的法律不要忽視，我們很強調的原住民族是先於國家的集體土地權，這個很重要，而不是去侵害任何個人的權益，所以它只是反映出我們國家一個非常核心而且長久存在的問題，就是原住民族土地的集體權，跟國家以私有財產權為治理基礎，這兩個之間有很多的衝突，有很多的想像跟不明確。所以我請教，您是否認為在原住民族土地上，即便那個土地是屬於私有，也應該要遵守「事前知情同意」這種基本權利？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：這個我是贊成。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝您。那這樣的一個機制，我們不應該都把它簡化說：哎呀！會侵犯私有財產權。反而是我們要透過一個好的制度設計，去保障原住民的集體權利跟尊重個人財產權之間，我相信你也同意吧？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：但是我覺得這個是原住民自決權的一部分。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，所以你做為一個法律專業者，我很想要請教您怎麼樣去從制度的角度去實現這個平衡？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：我想……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：希望你未來做大法官，你能夠往這個地方去努力。"],["鄭純惠被提名人：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：願意嗎？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：可以。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝你，我希望你可以往這個方向努力。因為時間的關係，我最後一個議題請教您，我先跟您說是關於選區劃分、選制的問題。像上一次的地方選舉，2022年在新北市有一個原住民族人，他想要去選新北市的議員但是被駁回，被駁回的理由其實也很簡單，就說：你可以選，但是你必須要放棄你的原住民族身分。我不曉得你對於這樣的法律見解是什麼？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：因為這件事情事實本身我並不是很了解，但是我初步聽起來是被選舉權的行使跟他的原住民身分權保障兩個之間的問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：他被中選會根據選罷法撤銷他的資格，內政部是回應說，如果原住民去選這個的時候，會衝擊到非原住民的參選權益，這個需要社會共識。明明我們的憲法第十七條是人民有選舉、罷免、創制及複決權，這個能不能主張違憲？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：這個我要看具體的情況……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我是這樣想，這本末倒置，因為如果我們去看我們的憲法增修條文，它其實是保障我們的基本席次，它不是限制我們的參政權，它只是保障席次，它並沒有去提，所以這個部分，它也會牽涉到為什麼我們去講這個問題？因為我們現在原住民的選區也有過大的問題，這個部分因為時間不夠的關係，未來如果有機會，我希望那些問題你都能夠好好地思考，因為我們有一個共同的目標，就是我們要遵守憲法，這是我們共同的目標，不論立法、修法、判決，我們都要遵守憲法，那也希望這是我們原住民最後一道防線，我們原住民在這個國家體制下，最後的依賴就是我們的憲法，我希望你能夠恪遵憲法，保障少數的權利，好不好？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：謝謝委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員的詢問，也謝謝被提名人鄭法官的說明。","接下來，我們請翁曉玲委員詢問，陳素月委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳宗憲","麥玉珍","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","賴惠員","陳菁徽","何欣純","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳素月","林倩綺","鍾佳濱","徐欣瑩","張雅琳","蘇清泉","林憶君","林楚茵","陳永康","王美惠"],"page_start":365,"meetingDate":["2025-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1146501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146501_00006","1146501_00007","1146501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規\n定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並\n以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案","agenda_id":"1146501_00004"}}}