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\"關於這件事情其實就是大法官解釋憲法這件事情他不會是就是說他不能依照他自我價值的偏好去取代憲法價值也就是大法官解釋憲法要忠於憲法所以憲法本身他所架構的那個價值體系這個就是他解釋的依據那所以一般來講這個價值體系也有可能隨著時代的變遷會有\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 272.759, \"end\": 273.2, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 273.2, \"end\": 273.48, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 273.48, \"end\": 273.72, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 273.72, \"end\": 274.08, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 274.08, \"end\": 274.9, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 274.9, \"end\": 275.04, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 275.04, \"end\": 275.3, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 275.3, \"end\": 275.461, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 275.461, \"end\": 275.601, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"官\", \"start\": 275.601, \"end\": 275.941, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 275.941, \"end\": 276.701, \"score\": 0.947}, 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\"end\": 317.496, \"score\": 0.179}]}, {\"start\": 317.796, \"end\": 346.317, \"text\": \"应该是这样谢谢政法官您的说明我很赞同您的说法那么到接下来我就要讨论一个比较实质的宪法解释我们知道其实民法跟宪法之间的解释向来来讲是比较少了但是最近这些年来几个重要的解释包含了791号解释我相信您作为民庭的法官应该很清楚知道791号解释就是宣告刑法通奸罪\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"应\", \"start\": 317.796, \"end\": 317.916, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"该\", \"start\": 317.916, \"end\": 318.056, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 318.056, \"end\": 318.176, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"这\", \"start\": 318.176, \"end\": 318.396, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"样\", \"start\": 318.396, \"end\": 318.617, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"谢\", \"start\": 318.617, \"end\": 318.797, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"谢\", \"start\": 318.797, \"end\": 319.717, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 319.717, \"end\": 319.858, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 319.858, \"end\": 320.018, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"官\", \"start\": 320.018, \"end\": 320.178, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"您\", 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{\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 474.627, \"end\": 474.847, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 474.847, \"end\": 475.008, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"么\", \"start\": 475.008, \"end\": 475.168, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"还\", \"start\": 475.168, \"end\": 475.408, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 475.408, \"end\": 475.588, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 475.588, \"end\": 475.768, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 475.768, \"end\": 475.908, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"么\", \"start\": 475.908, \"end\": 475.928, \"score\": 0.995}]}, {\"start\": 477.059, \"end\": 500.348, \"text\": \"我想大法官的意思應該是說當你違背了這樣的一個性忠誠義務的時候他的處罰不應該要用刑事刑罰的手段而他並沒有根本的去否認說配偶之間需要負這樣的義務所以目前這樣的一個情況大概就會變成由民事訴訟來處理他但是你認為現在配偶權還包含了什麼\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 477.059, \"end\": 477.159, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 477.159, \"end\": 477.379, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 477.379, \"end\": 477.539, \"score\": 0.995}, 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\"但\", \"start\": 498.227, \"end\": 498.347, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 498.347, \"end\": 498.487, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 498.487, \"end\": 499.007, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 499.007, \"end\": 499.227, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"配\", \"start\": 499.227, \"end\": 499.387, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"偶\", \"start\": 499.387, \"end\": 499.948, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 499.948, \"end\": 500.108, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"含\", \"start\": 500.108, \"end\": 500.208, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 500.208, \"end\": 500.328, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 500.328, \"end\": 500.348, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}]}, {\"start\": 501.806, \"end\": 517.781, \"text\": \"如果配偶之間不具有性的忠誠義務我是說大法官並沒有說不要他沒有去否認忠誠義務他只是說不需要用刑事的手段那我現在的意思就是說那麼您認為現在我們的配偶權還存在嗎是啊\", \"words\": 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\"段\", \"start\": 512.737, \"end\": 513.037, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 513.037, \"end\": 513.177, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 513.177, \"end\": 513.417, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 513.417, \"end\": 513.517, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 513.517, \"end\": 513.557, \"score\": 0.685}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 513.557, \"end\": 513.758, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"思\", \"start\": 513.758, \"end\": 513.898, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 513.898, \"end\": 514.078, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 514.078, \"end\": 514.298, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 514.298, \"end\": 514.618, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 514.618, \"end\": 515.259, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 515.259, \"end\": 515.399, \"score\": 0.866}, 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\"非常多在过去其实从来没有要求过的一些事情那么在这边我要举的这个例子就是石雪燕议员她是前南投县议员那么她过去她是原来的身份她是大陆籍的配偶但是她早在2007年的时候就已经在台湾涉及并且2008年就领有国民身份证那么她在110年的时候就当选南投县的县议员\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 807.453, \"end\": 807.593, \"score\": 0.726}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 807.593, \"end\": 807.834, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 807.834, \"end\": 808.574, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 808.574, \"end\": 808.814, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"过\", \"start\": 808.814, \"end\": 809.055, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 809.055, \"end\": 809.475, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 809.475, \"end\": 809.635, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"实\", \"start\": 809.635, \"end\": 809.795, \"score\": 0.623}, {\"word\": \"从\", \"start\": 809.795, \"end\": 809.975, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"来\", \"start\": 809.975, \"end\": 810.275, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"没\", \"start\": 810.275, \"end\": 810.396, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 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\"部\", \"start\": 958.45, \"end\": 958.571, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 958.571, \"end\": 958.751, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 958.751, \"end\": 958.871, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 958.871, \"end\": 959.491, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"必\", \"start\": 959.491, \"end\": 959.852, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"須\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 959.852, \"end\": 959.992, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 959.992, \"end\": 960.112, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 960.112, \"end\": 960.212, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 960.212, \"end\": 960.372, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 960.372, \"end\": 960.632, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 960.632, \"end\": 960.873, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 960.873, \"end\": 961.093, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 961.093, 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00:01:25,691\n我不知道说您有没有知道一个新闻就是本周一呢在土城有发生了一件汉人听闻的一个街头杀人案他是一个有家暴前科的凶嫌那么事实上他在开这个要申请紧急保护令的这个停开完停之后呢他大概心生不满就开车去冲撞他的妻子还有小姨子然后随后又持刀杀害了他的妻子\n\n4\n00:01:26,051 --> 00:01:39,913\n跟小姨子当场这两个女生就失去生命迹象送医急救后原来是宣告不治那么凶嫌在落网之后他就说他有精神病\n\n5\n00:01:41,567 --> 00:02:08,717\n那麼這樣當然他這樣說法就讓人不禁想起就是在去年憲判八號的判決裡面其實大法官對於死刑就設下了重重的條件障礙其中有一項就是如果說有精神病者的話就不可以處死那麼沒想到這樣一個憲法判決竟然就成為這個兇手想要逃脫死刑的護身符\n\n6\n00:02:09,873 --> 00:02:29,604\n現在是不是只要自稱有精神病的然後只要犯下了這種滔天殺人的大罪就不能判死那麼這就是回到我剛剛講的就是因為大法官現在他作為一個憲法守護者人權守護者其實在解釋人權議題的時候呢要非常的小心謹慎雖然說我們也知道\n\n7\n00:02:30,816 --> 00:02:48,998\n大法官其实在解释的过程当中,他希望能够更进一步的去强化人权的保障。但是我们也观察到近年来大法官在开展这些人权或是自由权保障的议题的时候,常常会忽略了台湾社会的主流民意。\n\n8\n00:02:49,999 --> 00:03:10,850\n那跟多数国民的法感情还有国内的法文法文化是背道而驰特别是可能也严重的这个跟我们国民的对于公平正义的一些标准看法相左那么所以像是几个比较众所瞩目的宪法判决除了\n\n9\n00:03:11,710 --> 00:03:39,846\n我们刚刚讲的死刑有条件核限的判决宪判自8号的判决之外另外像是大法官宣告通浸罪违宪法院命诽谤人强制道歉的这样的一个处分违宪还有也限缩了侮辱公务员罪的范围等等这些宪法判决其实看在国人的眼里总觉得好像大法官是活在云端很不接地气根本不了解\n\n10\n00:03:40,246 --> 00:04:06,373\n民间社会对于正义的价值跟坚持所以呢当然我们也知道了大法官直接做成这些宪法判决的它的这个本质它就是有抗多数决的这个特性可是如果大法官他持续的忽略多数的民意那么不思考国民主权的意义同时做出这些宪法判决可能就会严重侵害到社会的观感\n\n11\n00:04:07,543 --> 00:04:29,927\n人民的这个法感情这个也可能会对于法律和实务界会带来很多的困扰跟障碍所以在此的本席想请教你就是你如何看待大法官解释对于社会可能会带来的重大冲击而在人权保障以及社会影响和社会冲击之间你认为要怎么样取得平衡\n\n12\n00:04:32,759 --> 00:04:58,471\n關於這件事情其實就是大法官解釋憲法這件事情他不會是就是說他不能依照他自我價值的偏好去取代憲法價值也就是大法官解釋憲法要忠於憲法所以憲法本身他所架構的那個價值體系這個就是他解釋的依據那所以一般來講這個價值體系也有可能隨著時代的變遷會有\n\n13\n00:05:01,172 --> 00:05:17,496\n不一樣的解釋內容那這部分當然就要參考我們社會共識的部分那至於抗多數決的部分我覺得是在少數族群的權利保障上面這個部分要特別的去留意它\n\n14\n00:05:17,796 --> 00:05:46,317\n应该是这样谢谢政法官您的说明我很赞同您的说法那么到接下来我就要讨论一个比较实质的宪法解释我们知道其实民法跟宪法之间的解释向来来讲是比较少了但是最近这些年来几个重要的解释包含了791号解释我相信您作为民庭的法官应该很清楚知道791号解释就是宣告刑法通奸罪\n\n15\n00:05:47,377 --> 00:06:10,451\n因為侵犯了個人性自主權而違憲大法官在791號解釋就是基本上宣告通姦罪違憲所以我們現在已經是沒有通姦罪了那麼近年來其實已經看到有些地方法院的判決它依循著大法官的解釋\n\n16\n00:06:11,331 --> 00:06:34,990\n因為通姦除罪了所以呢在這個進行相關的這個民事的損害賠償相關案子當中他就否定了配偶權的存在那會認為說其實受害的配偶的一方是沒有權利可以向出軌的配偶的那一方去請求民事損害賠償的權利那不知道像這樣子的一個見解您是否認同\n\n17\n00:06:36,630 --> 00:06:53,691\n我想這個部分大概應該還是比較偏少數的見解就是目前多數還是會認為說配偶權裡面的忠誠義務應該也是算是民法保障的權利之一也就是身份法義之一\n\n18\n00:06:54,571 --> 00:07:17,066\n因為大法官其實在791號解釋有說其實這個通姦罪它雖然它是維護忠誠義務的本來它的規定是維護婚姻的忠誠義務但是大法官認為說其實沒有必要透過刑法的方式去處罰當配偶之間有人違反了忠誠義務可是這個議題就在於說\n\n19\n00:07:24,039 --> 00:07:30,809\n如果說婚姻關係當中你又承認配偶雙方之間有忠誠義務可是又不承認\n\n20\n00:07:32,199 --> 00:07:55,928\n肯认性的忠诚义务是婚姻忠诚义务当中一个很重要的环节所以我想请教政法官您认为在大法官所讲的忠诚义务的概念之下排除了性忠诚义务之后我们的婚姻忠诚义务还剩下什么还有些什么\n\n21\n00:07:57,059 --> 00:08:20,348\n我想大法官的意思應該是說當你違背了這樣的一個性忠誠義務的時候他的處罰不應該要用刑事刑罰的手段而他並沒有根本的去否認說配偶之間需要負這樣的義務所以目前這樣的一個情況大概就會變成由民事訴訟來處理他但是你認為現在配偶權還包含了什麼\n\n22\n00:08:21,806 --> 00:08:37,781\n如果配偶之間不具有性的忠誠義務我是說大法官並沒有說不要他沒有去否認忠誠義務他只是說不需要用刑事的手段那我現在的意思就是說那麼您認為現在我們的配偶權還存在嗎是啊\n\n23\n00:08:38,843 --> 00:08:58,043\n所以配偶權裡面還包含了哪些內涵因為大法官其實是更重視的是個人的性自主權那麼也認為說其實配偶跟配偶之間他不能夠透過性自主權利去綁住另外一個人所以從這個角度來講配偶權裡面他還可以有些什麼樣的內涵\n\n24\n00:09:00,391 --> 00:09:27,857\n這個配偶權的這個部分大概它的內涵就是我們民事裡面所謂身份法義就人格權的一部分所以只是在戶政機關上面登記的那個配偶的意思所以受侵害的時候他是可以請求損害賠償或者是在某程度之下他也可以變成離婚的室友我想這個應該都是法律有明文規定的所以民事的損害賠償責任這部分是還是存在的\n\n25\n00:09:28,868 --> 00:09:53,086\n不过就是说因为确实大法官的这号解释它的影响层面是很大的然后包含大法官也在解释当中他认为说刑法通奸罪的违宪除了一方面他可能是侵犯了个人的限制主权之外还有一个重要的理由就是因为他在追溯审判的过程当中他有干预人民的隐私\n\n26\n00:09:53,766 --> 00:10:14,867\n所以在這裡我想請教的就是說難道在民事訴訟的審判過程當中在處理有關於這種婚姻的出軌的事件事件中在調查證據或是在當事人舉證的過程當中不會有干擾個人隱私的問題不會有侵犯到個人私密生活領域的這些問題嗎\n\n27\n00:10:17,179 --> 00:10:40,581\n就是關於民事訴訟的舉證這個部分關於證據能力我們是沒有像刑事訴訟規定的這麼明文這麼嚴格所以通常我們就會去用應該是用比例原則去做衡量也就是他對於那個隱私的侵犯跟他所要達到的這個舉證的目的這個手段之間是不是有相當性合理性這樣\n\n28\n00:10:42,154 --> 00:11:01,366\n譬如說錄音啊或者是其他的就是狀況不一樣要具體來看因為其實通姦罪的這個問題在向來我們很多的學術單位或是媒體去做民調其實台灣的多數民意是反對廢除通姦罪的\n\n29\n00:11:02,369 --> 00:11:18,938\n可是大法官其實已經不止一次了他在很多的憲法判決上面很明顯的看到他基本上就是違反多數民意包含像通姦罪的除罪化我覺得他這是通姦罪被宣告違憲\n\n30\n00:11:20,619 --> 00:11:35,611\n这个议题其实都引起了社会上面非常多的讨论这当然我觉得它实际上也影响了法院实务的判决现在当然是已经有法官有做出来我们刚刚讲他是否认了\n\n31\n00:11:36,611 --> 00:11:58,502\n配偶权所以认为说你那个受害的配偶他是无权向出轨的配偶请求损害赔偿的权利固然您说现在这可能还是少数法院少数法官的见解但是我觉得大法官的这个判决事实上他未来有可能会让整个婚姻制度的保障越来越示威\n\n32\n00:11:59,122 --> 00:12:28,402\n因为这样的见解已经使得通奸行为从一开始我们认定他是有罪之后到除罪那未来有没有一天可能就是整个通奸行为就合法化了因为当民事法院的法官也越来越认为说我顺着大法官的逻辑事实上似乎是没有配偶权存在的就是已经不具有配偶权因为大法官意思就是说要尊重每个人双方的性自主的权利\n\n33\n00:12:29,283 --> 00:12:38,240\n那在這樣的情況之下有沒有可能未來總有一天會走到通姦行為是合法化就算是配偶出軌其實也得不到任何的損害賠償\n\n34\n00:12:41,109 --> 00:13:07,934\n首先我要講就是說我們的剛剛講到這些就是地院的見解某程度還是要受到審計制度的檢視這樣子所以說原則上他還是要受到審計制度看最高法院的見解那另外說社會變遷有沒有可能走到內部那我想這個誰都不敢說所以您認為這個791號解釋有沒有之後有機會再修正或改變的地方\n\n35\n00:13:08,868 --> 00:13:24,872\n那就要看具體的情況了好好的那麼接下來呢我再請教另外一個案子那麼就是我們知道其實這個賴清德政府上任之後他們已經採取了很多的措施對於陸配是極盡刁難之能事給他們\n\n36\n00:13:27,453 --> 00:13:56,357\n非常多在过去其实从来没有要求过的一些事情那么在这边我要举的这个例子就是石雪燕议员她是前南投县议员那么她过去她是原来的身份她是大陆籍的配偶但是她早在2007年的时候就已经在台湾涉及并且2008年就领有国民身份证那么她在110年的时候就当选南投县的县议员\n\n37\n00:13:58,998 --> 00:14:15,724\n111年等於說當了一年多的職務在111年年底的時候就卸任了等於說他都已經卸任了可是我們的內政部卻在去年的年底說依國籍法要解除石雪燕議員的公職\n\n38\n00:14:17,278 --> 00:14:42,249\n一個很關鍵的理由就是說因為呢石雪硯議員在當他在當議員的那一年之內當時並沒有檢附上司原國籍的證明文件所以認為這個是不符合國籍法的規定因此要解除他的公職本期在這邊想請教你的就是大陸配偶是外國人嗎是用國籍法的規範嗎\n\n39\n00:14:48,493 --> 00:15:12,428\n我想這個部分大概就是要適用兩岸關係條例吧應該是適用兩岸關係條例對不對應該是不適用國籍法所以內政部基本上它這個隱據國籍法的規定說已經取得大陸身份證已經取得台灣身份證的陸籍配偶他要提出上司原國籍證明的這件事情是不是就很荒謬\n\n40\n00:15:13,588 --> 00:15:35,550\n這個部分因為它具體引用的條文我並不清楚而且我們大概是以戶籍為準吧所以在兩岸人力關係條例裡面講的就是說必須要放棄大陸地區的戶籍或者是護照所以是戶籍的問題那這個部分因為具體引用的條文還有事實的細節並不清楚我就沒有辦法就是任意的去評論它\n\n41\n00:15:36,531 --> 00:16:03,275\n是謝謝政法官您的這個您畢竟是專業的法官很清楚兩岸人民關係條例裡面的相關規定當然本席現在今天講的這個完全就是內政部他之所以要解除石雪燕議員公職的一個理由就是說她在任職的一年當中一年當時在一年之內因為依照內政部自己規定說必須要在一年之內要提出上市員國籍的證明文件\n\n42\n00:16:03,795 --> 00:16:23,991\n所以这个新闻爆发之后呢其实舆论华人认为说一个大陆籍的配偶已经取得我们国民身份证你要叫他去怎么去放弃原国籍的证明所以呢我认为说其实内政部的这样的一个要求基本上就是一个违法违宪的要求那另外呢我再提一个\n\n43\n00:16:25,032 --> 00:16:53,773\n另外一个案例就是最近就是有一名师大附中的学生他去申请国防医学院那只是因为他是在南京出生回台湾涉及不满20年所以呢就被国防医学院拒绝拒绝录取拒绝收他那么最主要的原因就是因为在国防医学院的招生简章当中呢当然他有讲就是必须要在台湾涉及20年然后才可以\n\n44\n00:16:56,975 --> 00:17:09,085\n有可以成為國防醫學院軍校學生的資格那麼這個中間其實還涉及到一個就是民進黨政府的從2018年\n\n45\n00:17:10,966 --> 00:17:38,846\n开始他们当时就修订了人民关系条例的施行细则在里面的规定就是将陆配子女在大陆地区出生如果说他在出生一年之内没有回到台湾涉及就会变成大陆地区的人口我觉得关键点在这边我们知道其实有很多台商家庭他们可能工作生活在大陆小孩在那边诞生但是他只要出生一年之内没有回到台湾涉及之后他竟然就变成了\n\n46\n00:17:39,908 --> 00:17:43,220\n大陸人請問您知道這則新聞嗎\n\n47\n00:17:45,083 --> 00:18:09,298\n我有從報章上面得知這個問題好像也是涉及到戶籍設定的問題那他比較就是說因為他要去考這個大學他可能還沒有滿20歲所以他其實是很難符合這樣的一個規定所以這個部分是確實有一些討論的餘地所以你有沒有認為說其實\n\n48\n00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:24,394\n這樣子的一個要求是顯不合理而且可能已經也違反了或是侵害了這個學生的受教權已經違反了平等原則我不敢直接這樣子說但是我覺得這個是有討論空間\n\n49\n00:18:25,993 --> 00:18:52,251\n是那麼我認為說其實像這樣子的問題未來可能都會成為憲法解釋的這個標的那麼對於就是兩岸人民關係還有對於就是現在陸配或是我們講新台灣之子他們的權利的保護我也希望就是未來如果您有幸能夠成為大法官的話能夠多從保護這些少數族群的角度去思考能夠多維護他們的權利\n\n50\n00:18:57,134 --> 00:19:24,073\n請教一個問題麻煩跳到比較後面這個PVT賴清德總統他在之前的憲法演講裡面團結演講裡面他有說這個立法院不可以去介入考試院的職權運用多數去決定公務人員的退休輔續制度這是屬於考試院的權利請問您是否同意這句話\n\n51\n00:19:26,710 --> 00:19:33,123\n這句話因為它的那個背景跟實際上想要表達的那個內容我並不是很清楚\n\n52\n00:19:34,398 --> 00:19:59,999\n不过就是这是真的就是赖清德总统说的话他首先先讲了宪法第83条考试愿为国家最高考试机关然后掌理什么考试任用权序等等这些资格那么当然他主要是在讲就是说是立法院不应该任意的去修改警消人员的退休金条例也不应该任意的去提高军人待遇条例所以呢他认为说这是属于\n\n53\n00:20:00,339 --> 00:20:23,988\n考試院的職權那麼如果說立法院是不可以運用多數決去決定公務人員的退休輔續制度請問如果說不是立法院去立法去規範公務人員退休輔續制度請問考試院要怎麼做考試院可以自己制定辦法制定規則嗎他可以自己制定立法嗎\n\n54\n00:20:28,868 --> 00:20:28,888\n好,謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n21756\t27398\t主席好 在這邊有請曾法官被提名人法官再請被提名人 請說明\n37515\t57147\t政備提名人您好我想您被提名為大法官身為未來有可能執事憲法擔任憲法守護者還有人權守護者的角色這樣的一個重要的職務所以接下來本席想要請教您一些比較實際上的有關於憲法判決的一些問題\n58468\t85691\t我不知道说您有没有知道一个新闻就是本周一呢在土城有发生了一件汉人听闻的一个街头杀人案他是一个有家暴前科的凶嫌那么事实上他在开这个要申请紧急保护令的这个停开完停之后呢他大概心生不满就开车去冲撞他的妻子还有小姨子然后随后又持刀杀害了他的妻子\n86051\t99913\t跟小姨子当场这两个女生就失去生命迹象送医急救后原来是宣告不治那么凶嫌在落网之后他就说他有精神病\n101567\t128717\t那麼這樣當然他這樣說法就讓人不禁想起就是在去年憲判八號的判決裡面其實大法官對於死刑就設下了重重的條件障礙其中有一項就是如果說有精神病者的話就不可以處死那麼沒想到這樣一個憲法判決竟然就成為這個兇手想要逃脫死刑的護身符\n129873\t149604\t現在是不是只要自稱有精神病的然後只要犯下了這種滔天殺人的大罪就不能判死那麼這就是回到我剛剛講的就是因為大法官現在他作為一個憲法守護者人權守護者其實在解釋人權議題的時候呢要非常的小心謹慎雖然說我們也知道\n150816\t168998\t大法官其实在解释的过程当中,他希望能够更进一步的去强化人权的保障。但是我们也观察到近年来大法官在开展这些人权或是自由权保障的议题的时候,常常会忽略了台湾社会的主流民意。\n169999\t190850\t那跟多数国民的法感情还有国内的法文法文化是背道而驰特别是可能也严重的这个跟我们国民的对于公平正义的一些标准看法相左那么所以像是几个比较众所瞩目的宪法判决除了\n191710\t219846\t我们刚刚讲的死刑有条件核限的判决宪判自8号的判决之外另外像是大法官宣告通浸罪违宪法院命诽谤人强制道歉的这样的一个处分违宪还有也限缩了侮辱公务员罪的范围等等这些宪法判决其实看在国人的眼里总觉得好像大法官是活在云端很不接地气根本不了解\n220246\t246373\t民间社会对于正义的价值跟坚持所以呢当然我们也知道了大法官直接做成这些宪法判决的它的这个本质它就是有抗多数决的这个特性可是如果大法官他持续的忽略多数的民意那么不思考国民主权的意义同时做出这些宪法判决可能就会严重侵害到社会的观感\n247543\t269927\t人民的这个法感情这个也可能会对于法律和实务界会带来很多的困扰跟障碍所以在此的本席想请教你就是你如何看待大法官解释对于社会可能会带来的重大冲击而在人权保障以及社会影响和社会冲击之间你认为要怎么样取得平衡\n272759\t298471\t關於這件事情其實就是大法官解釋憲法這件事情他不會是就是說他不能依照他自我價值的偏好去取代憲法價值也就是大法官解釋憲法要忠於憲法所以憲法本身他所架構的那個價值體系這個就是他解釋的依據那所以一般來講這個價值體系也有可能隨著時代的變遷會有\n301172\t317496\t不一樣的解釋內容那這部分當然就要參考我們社會共識的部分那至於抗多數決的部分我覺得是在少數族群的權利保障上面這個部分要特別的去留意它\n317796\t346317\t应该是这样谢谢政法官您的说明我很赞同您的说法那么到接下来我就要讨论一个比较实质的宪法解释我们知道其实民法跟宪法之间的解释向来来讲是比较少了但是最近这些年来几个重要的解释包含了791号解释我相信您作为民庭的法官应该很清楚知道791号解释就是宣告刑法通奸罪\n347377\t370451\t因為侵犯了個人性自主權而違憲大法官在791號解釋就是基本上宣告通姦罪違憲所以我們現在已經是沒有通姦罪了那麼近年來其實已經看到有些地方法院的判決它依循著大法官的解釋\n371331\t394990\t因為通姦除罪了所以呢在這個進行相關的這個民事的損害賠償相關案子當中他就否定了配偶權的存在那會認為說其實受害的配偶的一方是沒有權利可以向出軌的配偶的那一方去請求民事損害賠償的權利那不知道像這樣子的一個見解您是否認同\n396630\t413691\t我想這個部分大概應該還是比較偏少數的見解就是目前多數還是會認為說配偶權裡面的忠誠義務應該也是算是民法保障的權利之一也就是身份法義之一\n414571\t437066\t因為大法官其實在791號解釋有說其實這個通姦罪它雖然它是維護忠誠義務的本來它的規定是維護婚姻的忠誠義務但是大法官認為說其實沒有必要透過刑法的方式去處罰當配偶之間有人違反了忠誠義務可是這個議題就在於說\n444039\t450809\t如果說婚姻關係當中你又承認配偶雙方之間有忠誠義務可是又不承認\n452199\t475928\t肯认性的忠诚义务是婚姻忠诚义务当中一个很重要的环节所以我想请教政法官您认为在大法官所讲的忠诚义务的概念之下排除了性忠诚义务之后我们的婚姻忠诚义务还剩下什么还有些什么\n477059\t500348\t我想大法官的意思應該是說當你違背了這樣的一個性忠誠義務的時候他的處罰不應該要用刑事刑罰的手段而他並沒有根本的去否認說配偶之間需要負這樣的義務所以目前這樣的一個情況大概就會變成由民事訴訟來處理他但是你認為現在配偶權還包含了什麼\n501806\t517781\t如果配偶之間不具有性的忠誠義務我是說大法官並沒有說不要他沒有去否認忠誠義務他只是說不需要用刑事的手段那我現在的意思就是說那麼您認為現在我們的配偶權還存在嗎是啊\n518843\t538043\t所以配偶權裡面還包含了哪些內涵因為大法官其實是更重視的是個人的性自主權那麼也認為說其實配偶跟配偶之間他不能夠透過性自主權利去綁住另外一個人所以從這個角度來講配偶權裡面他還可以有些什麼樣的內涵\n540391\t567857\t這個配偶權的這個部分大概它的內涵就是我們民事裡面所謂身份法義就人格權的一部分所以只是在戶政機關上面登記的那個配偶的意思所以受侵害的時候他是可以請求損害賠償或者是在某程度之下他也可以變成離婚的室友我想這個應該都是法律有明文規定的所以民事的損害賠償責任這部分是還是存在的\n568868\t593086\t不过就是说因为确实大法官的这号解释它的影响层面是很大的然后包含大法官也在解释当中他认为说刑法通奸罪的违宪除了一方面他可能是侵犯了个人的限制主权之外还有一个重要的理由就是因为他在追溯审判的过程当中他有干预人民的隐私\n593766\t614867\t所以在這裡我想請教的就是說難道在民事訴訟的審判過程當中在處理有關於這種婚姻的出軌的事件事件中在調查證據或是在當事人舉證的過程當中不會有干擾個人隱私的問題不會有侵犯到個人私密生活領域的這些問題嗎\n617179\t640581\t就是關於民事訴訟的舉證這個部分關於證據能力我們是沒有像刑事訴訟規定的這麼明文這麼嚴格所以通常我們就會去用應該是用比例原則去做衡量也就是他對於那個隱私的侵犯跟他所要達到的這個舉證的目的這個手段之間是不是有相當性合理性這樣\n642154\t661366\t譬如說錄音啊或者是其他的就是狀況不一樣要具體來看因為其實通姦罪的這個問題在向來我們很多的學術單位或是媒體去做民調其實台灣的多數民意是反對廢除通姦罪的\n662369\t678938\t可是大法官其實已經不止一次了他在很多的憲法判決上面很明顯的看到他基本上就是違反多數民意包含像通姦罪的除罪化我覺得他這是通姦罪被宣告違憲\n680619\t695611\t这个议题其实都引起了社会上面非常多的讨论这当然我觉得它实际上也影响了法院实务的判决现在当然是已经有法官有做出来我们刚刚讲他是否认了\n696611\t718502\t配偶权所以认为说你那个受害的配偶他是无权向出轨的配偶请求损害赔偿的权利固然您说现在这可能还是少数法院少数法官的见解但是我觉得大法官的这个判决事实上他未来有可能会让整个婚姻制度的保障越来越示威\n719122\t748402\t因为这样的见解已经使得通奸行为从一开始我们认定他是有罪之后到除罪那未来有没有一天可能就是整个通奸行为就合法化了因为当民事法院的法官也越来越认为说我顺着大法官的逻辑事实上似乎是没有配偶权存在的就是已经不具有配偶权因为大法官意思就是说要尊重每个人双方的性自主的权利\n749283\t758240\t那在這樣的情況之下有沒有可能未來總有一天會走到通姦行為是合法化就算是配偶出軌其實也得不到任何的損害賠償\n761109\t787934\t首先我要講就是說我們的剛剛講到這些就是地院的見解某程度還是要受到審計制度的檢視這樣子所以說原則上他還是要受到審計制度看最高法院的見解那另外說社會變遷有沒有可能走到內部那我想這個誰都不敢說所以您認為這個791號解釋有沒有之後有機會再修正或改變的地方\n788868\t804872\t那就要看具體的情況了好好的那麼接下來呢我再請教另外一個案子那麼就是我們知道其實這個賴清德政府上任之後他們已經採取了很多的措施對於陸配是極盡刁難之能事給他們\n807453\t836357\t非常多在过去其实从来没有要求过的一些事情那么在这边我要举的这个例子就是石雪燕议员她是前南投县议员那么她过去她是原来的身份她是大陆籍的配偶但是她早在2007年的时候就已经在台湾涉及并且2008年就领有国民身份证那么她在110年的时候就当选南投县的县议员\n838998\t855724\t111年等於說當了一年多的職務在111年年底的時候就卸任了等於說他都已經卸任了可是我們的內政部卻在去年的年底說依國籍法要解除石雪燕議員的公職\n857278\t882249\t一個很關鍵的理由就是說因為呢石雪硯議員在當他在當議員的那一年之內當時並沒有檢附上司原國籍的證明文件所以認為這個是不符合國籍法的規定因此要解除他的公職本期在這邊想請教你的就是大陸配偶是外國人嗎是用國籍法的規範嗎\n888493\t912428\t我想這個部分大概就是要適用兩岸關係條例吧應該是適用兩岸關係條例對不對應該是不適用國籍法所以內政部基本上它這個隱據國籍法的規定說已經取得大陸身份證已經取得台灣身份證的陸籍配偶他要提出上司原國籍證明的這件事情是不是就很荒謬\n913588\t935550\t這個部分因為它具體引用的條文我並不清楚而且我們大概是以戶籍為準吧所以在兩岸人力關係條例裡面講的就是說必須要放棄大陸地區的戶籍或者是護照所以是戶籍的問題那這個部分因為具體引用的條文還有事實的細節並不清楚我就沒有辦法就是任意的去評論它\n936531\t963275\t是謝謝政法官您的這個您畢竟是專業的法官很清楚兩岸人民關係條例裡面的相關規定當然本席現在今天講的這個完全就是內政部他之所以要解除石雪燕議員公職的一個理由就是說她在任職的一年當中一年當時在一年之內因為依照內政部自己規定說必須要在一年之內要提出上市員國籍的證明文件\n963795\t983991\t所以这个新闻爆发之后呢其实舆论华人认为说一个大陆籍的配偶已经取得我们国民身份证你要叫他去怎么去放弃原国籍的证明所以呢我认为说其实内政部的这样的一个要求基本上就是一个违法违宪的要求那另外呢我再提一个\n985032\t1013773\t另外一个案例就是最近就是有一名师大附中的学生他去申请国防医学院那只是因为他是在南京出生回台湾涉及不满20年所以呢就被国防医学院拒绝拒绝录取拒绝收他那么最主要的原因就是因为在国防医学院的招生简章当中呢当然他有讲就是必须要在台湾涉及20年然后才可以\n1016975\t1029085\t有可以成為國防醫學院軍校學生的資格那麼這個中間其實還涉及到一個就是民進黨政府的從2018年\n1030966\t1058846\t开始他们当时就修订了人民关系条例的施行细则在里面的规定就是将陆配子女在大陆地区出生如果说他在出生一年之内没有回到台湾涉及就会变成大陆地区的人口我觉得关键点在这边我们知道其实有很多台商家庭他们可能工作生活在大陆小孩在那边诞生但是他只要出生一年之内没有回到台湾涉及之后他竟然就变成了\n1059908\t1063220\t大陸人請問您知道這則新聞嗎\n1065083\t1089298\t我有從報章上面得知這個問題好像也是涉及到戶籍設定的問題那他比較就是說因為他要去考這個大學他可能還沒有滿20歲所以他其實是很難符合這樣的一個規定所以這個部分是確實有一些討論的餘地所以你有沒有認為說其實\n1090800\t1104394\t這樣子的一個要求是顯不合理而且可能已經也違反了或是侵害了這個學生的受教權已經違反了平等原則我不敢直接這樣子說但是我覺得這個是有討論空間\n1105993\t1132251\t是 那麼我認為說其實像這樣子的問題未來可能都會成為憲法解釋的這個標的那麼對於就是兩岸人民關係還有對於就是現在陸配或是我們講新台灣之子他們的權利的保護我也希望就是未來如果您有幸能夠成為大法官的話能夠多從保護這些少數族群的角度去思考能夠多維護他們的權利\n1137134\t1164073\t請教一個問題麻煩跳到比較後面這個PVT賴清德總統他在之前的憲法演講裡面團結演講裡面他有說這個立法院不可以去介入考試院的職權運用多數去決定公務人員的退休輔續制度這是屬於考試院的權利請問您是否同意這句話\n1166710\t1173123\t這句話因為它的那個背景跟實際上想要表達的那個內容我並不是很清楚\n1174398\t1199999\t不过就是这是真的就是赖清德总统说的话他首先先讲了宪法第83条考试愿为国家最高考试机关然后掌理什么考试任用权序等等这些资格那么当然他主要是在讲就是说是立法院不应该任意的去修改警消人员的退休金条例也不应该任意的去提高军人待遇条例所以呢他认为说这是属于\n1200339\t1223988\t考試院的職權那麼如果說立法院是不可以運用多數決去決定公務人員的退休輔續制度請問如果說不是立法院去立法去規範公務人員退休輔續制度請問考試院要怎麼做考試院可以自己制定辦法制定規則嗎他可以自己制定立法嗎\n1228868\t1228888\t好,謝謝\n","txt":"主席好 在這邊有請曾法官被提名人法官再請被提名人 請說明\n政備提名人您好我想您被提名為大法官身為未來有可能執事憲法擔任憲法守護者還有人權守護者的角色這樣的一個重要的職務所以接下來本席想要請教您一些比較實際上的有關於憲法判決的一些問題\n我不知道说您有没有知道一个新闻就是本周一呢在土城有发生了一件汉人听闻的一个街头杀人案他是一个有家暴前科的凶嫌那么事实上他在开这个要申请紧急保护令的这个停开完停之后呢他大概心生不满就开车去冲撞他的妻子还有小姨子然后随后又持刀杀害了他的妻子\n跟小姨子当场这两个女生就失去生命迹象送医急救后原来是宣告不治那么凶嫌在落网之后他就说他有精神病\n那麼這樣當然他這樣說法就讓人不禁想起就是在去年憲判八號的判決裡面其實大法官對於死刑就設下了重重的條件障礙其中有一項就是如果說有精神病者的話就不可以處死那麼沒想到這樣一個憲法判決竟然就成為這個兇手想要逃脫死刑的護身符\n現在是不是只要自稱有精神病的然後只要犯下了這種滔天殺人的大罪就不能判死那麼這就是回到我剛剛講的就是因為大法官現在他作為一個憲法守護者人權守護者其實在解釋人權議題的時候呢要非常的小心謹慎雖然說我們也知道\n大法官其实在解释的过程当中,他希望能够更进一步的去强化人权的保障。但是我们也观察到近年来大法官在开展这些人权或是自由权保障的议题的时候,常常会忽略了台湾社会的主流民意。\n那跟多数国民的法感情还有国内的法文法文化是背道而驰特别是可能也严重的这个跟我们国民的对于公平正义的一些标准看法相左那么所以像是几个比较众所瞩目的宪法判决除了\n我们刚刚讲的死刑有条件核限的判决宪判自8号的判决之外另外像是大法官宣告通浸罪违宪法院命诽谤人强制道歉的这样的一个处分违宪还有也限缩了侮辱公务员罪的范围等等这些宪法判决其实看在国人的眼里总觉得好像大法官是活在云端很不接地气根本不了解\n民间社会对于正义的价值跟坚持所以呢当然我们也知道了大法官直接做成这些宪法判决的它的这个本质它就是有抗多数决的这个特性可是如果大法官他持续的忽略多数的民意那么不思考国民主权的意义同时做出这些宪法判决可能就会严重侵害到社会的观感\n人民的这个法感情这个也可能会对于法律和实务界会带来很多的困扰跟障碍所以在此的本席想请教你就是你如何看待大法官解释对于社会可能会带来的重大冲击而在人权保障以及社会影响和社会冲击之间你认为要怎么样取得平衡\n關於這件事情其實就是大法官解釋憲法這件事情他不會是就是說他不能依照他自我價值的偏好去取代憲法價值也就是大法官解釋憲法要忠於憲法所以憲法本身他所架構的那個價值體系這個就是他解釋的依據那所以一般來講這個價值體系也有可能隨著時代的變遷會有\n不一樣的解釋內容那這部分當然就要參考我們社會共識的部分那至於抗多數決的部分我覺得是在少數族群的權利保障上面這個部分要特別的去留意它\n应该是这样谢谢政法官您的说明我很赞同您的说法那么到接下来我就要讨论一个比较实质的宪法解释我们知道其实民法跟宪法之间的解释向来来讲是比较少了但是最近这些年来几个重要的解释包含了791号解释我相信您作为民庭的法官应该很清楚知道791号解释就是宣告刑法通奸罪\n因為侵犯了個人性自主權而違憲大法官在791號解釋就是基本上宣告通姦罪違憲所以我們現在已經是沒有通姦罪了那麼近年來其實已經看到有些地方法院的判決它依循著大法官的解釋\n因為通姦除罪了所以呢在這個進行相關的這個民事的損害賠償相關案子當中他就否定了配偶權的存在那會認為說其實受害的配偶的一方是沒有權利可以向出軌的配偶的那一方去請求民事損害賠償的權利那不知道像這樣子的一個見解您是否認同\n我想這個部分大概應該還是比較偏少數的見解就是目前多數還是會認為說配偶權裡面的忠誠義務應該也是算是民法保障的權利之一也就是身份法義之一\n因為大法官其實在791號解釋有說其實這個通姦罪它雖然它是維護忠誠義務的本來它的規定是維護婚姻的忠誠義務但是大法官認為說其實沒有必要透過刑法的方式去處罰當配偶之間有人違反了忠誠義務可是這個議題就在於說\n如果說婚姻關係當中你又承認配偶雙方之間有忠誠義務可是又不承認\n肯认性的忠诚义务是婚姻忠诚义务当中一个很重要的环节所以我想请教政法官您认为在大法官所讲的忠诚义务的概念之下排除了性忠诚义务之后我们的婚姻忠诚义务还剩下什么还有些什么\n我想大法官的意思應該是說當你違背了這樣的一個性忠誠義務的時候他的處罰不應該要用刑事刑罰的手段而他並沒有根本的去否認說配偶之間需要負這樣的義務所以目前這樣的一個情況大概就會變成由民事訴訟來處理他但是你認為現在配偶權還包含了什麼\n如果配偶之間不具有性的忠誠義務我是說大法官並沒有說不要他沒有去否認忠誠義務他只是說不需要用刑事的手段那我現在的意思就是說那麼您認為現在我們的配偶權還存在嗎是啊\n所以配偶權裡面還包含了哪些內涵因為大法官其實是更重視的是個人的性自主權那麼也認為說其實配偶跟配偶之間他不能夠透過性自主權利去綁住另外一個人所以從這個角度來講配偶權裡面他還可以有些什麼樣的內涵\n這個配偶權的這個部分大概它的內涵就是我們民事裡面所謂身份法義就人格權的一部分所以只是在戶政機關上面登記的那個配偶的意思所以受侵害的時候他是可以請求損害賠償或者是在某程度之下他也可以變成離婚的室友我想這個應該都是法律有明文規定的所以民事的損害賠償責任這部分是還是存在的\n不过就是说因为确实大法官的这号解释它的影响层面是很大的然后包含大法官也在解释当中他认为说刑法通奸罪的违宪除了一方面他可能是侵犯了个人的限制主权之外还有一个重要的理由就是因为他在追溯审判的过程当中他有干预人民的隐私\n所以在這裡我想請教的就是說難道在民事訴訟的審判過程當中在處理有關於這種婚姻的出軌的事件事件中在調查證據或是在當事人舉證的過程當中不會有干擾個人隱私的問題不會有侵犯到個人私密生活領域的這些問題嗎\n就是關於民事訴訟的舉證這個部分關於證據能力我們是沒有像刑事訴訟規定的這麼明文這麼嚴格所以通常我們就會去用應該是用比例原則去做衡量也就是他對於那個隱私的侵犯跟他所要達到的這個舉證的目的這個手段之間是不是有相當性合理性這樣\n譬如說錄音啊或者是其他的就是狀況不一樣要具體來看因為其實通姦罪的這個問題在向來我們很多的學術單位或是媒體去做民調其實台灣的多數民意是反對廢除通姦罪的\n可是大法官其實已經不止一次了他在很多的憲法判決上面很明顯的看到他基本上就是違反多數民意包含像通姦罪的除罪化我覺得他這是通姦罪被宣告違憲\n这个议题其实都引起了社会上面非常多的讨论这当然我觉得它实际上也影响了法院实务的判决现在当然是已经有法官有做出来我们刚刚讲他是否认了\n配偶权所以认为说你那个受害的配偶他是无权向出轨的配偶请求损害赔偿的权利固然您说现在这可能还是少数法院少数法官的见解但是我觉得大法官的这个判决事实上他未来有可能会让整个婚姻制度的保障越来越示威\n因为这样的见解已经使得通奸行为从一开始我们认定他是有罪之后到除罪那未来有没有一天可能就是整个通奸行为就合法化了因为当民事法院的法官也越来越认为说我顺着大法官的逻辑事实上似乎是没有配偶权存在的就是已经不具有配偶权因为大法官意思就是说要尊重每个人双方的性自主的权利\n那在這樣的情況之下有沒有可能未來總有一天會走到通姦行為是合法化就算是配偶出軌其實也得不到任何的損害賠償\n首先我要講就是說我們的剛剛講到這些就是地院的見解某程度還是要受到審計制度的檢視這樣子所以說原則上他還是要受到審計制度看最高法院的見解那另外說社會變遷有沒有可能走到內部那我想這個誰都不敢說所以您認為這個791號解釋有沒有之後有機會再修正或改變的地方\n那就要看具體的情況了好好的那麼接下來呢我再請教另外一個案子那麼就是我們知道其實這個賴清德政府上任之後他們已經採取了很多的措施對於陸配是極盡刁難之能事給他們\n非常多在过去其实从来没有要求过的一些事情那么在这边我要举的这个例子就是石雪燕议员她是前南投县议员那么她过去她是原来的身份她是大陆籍的配偶但是她早在2007年的时候就已经在台湾涉及并且2008年就领有国民身份证那么她在110年的时候就当选南投县的县议员\n111年等於說當了一年多的職務在111年年底的時候就卸任了等於說他都已經卸任了可是我們的內政部卻在去年的年底說依國籍法要解除石雪燕議員的公職\n一個很關鍵的理由就是說因為呢石雪硯議員在當他在當議員的那一年之內當時並沒有檢附上司原國籍的證明文件所以認為這個是不符合國籍法的規定因此要解除他的公職本期在這邊想請教你的就是大陸配偶是外國人嗎是用國籍法的規範嗎\n我想這個部分大概就是要適用兩岸關係條例吧應該是適用兩岸關係條例對不對應該是不適用國籍法所以內政部基本上它這個隱據國籍法的規定說已經取得大陸身份證已經取得台灣身份證的陸籍配偶他要提出上司原國籍證明的這件事情是不是就很荒謬\n這個部分因為它具體引用的條文我並不清楚而且我們大概是以戶籍為準吧所以在兩岸人力關係條例裡面講的就是說必須要放棄大陸地區的戶籍或者是護照所以是戶籍的問題那這個部分因為具體引用的條文還有事實的細節並不清楚我就沒有辦法就是任意的去評論它\n是謝謝政法官您的這個您畢竟是專業的法官很清楚兩岸人民關係條例裡面的相關規定當然本席現在今天講的這個完全就是內政部他之所以要解除石雪燕議員公職的一個理由就是說她在任職的一年當中一年當時在一年之內因為依照內政部自己規定說必須要在一年之內要提出上市員國籍的證明文件\n所以这个新闻爆发之后呢其实舆论华人认为说一个大陆籍的配偶已经取得我们国民身份证你要叫他去怎么去放弃原国籍的证明所以呢我认为说其实内政部的这样的一个要求基本上就是一个违法违宪的要求那另外呢我再提一个\n另外一个案例就是最近就是有一名师大附中的学生他去申请国防医学院那只是因为他是在南京出生回台湾涉及不满20年所以呢就被国防医学院拒绝拒绝录取拒绝收他那么最主要的原因就是因为在国防医学院的招生简章当中呢当然他有讲就是必须要在台湾涉及20年然后才可以\n有可以成為國防醫學院軍校學生的資格那麼這個中間其實還涉及到一個就是民進黨政府的從2018年\n开始他们当时就修订了人民关系条例的施行细则在里面的规定就是将陆配子女在大陆地区出生如果说他在出生一年之内没有回到台湾涉及就会变成大陆地区的人口我觉得关键点在这边我们知道其实有很多台商家庭他们可能工作生活在大陆小孩在那边诞生但是他只要出生一年之内没有回到台湾涉及之后他竟然就变成了\n大陸人請問您知道這則新聞嗎\n我有從報章上面得知這個問題好像也是涉及到戶籍設定的問題那他比較就是說因為他要去考這個大學他可能還沒有滿20歲所以他其實是很難符合這樣的一個規定所以這個部分是確實有一些討論的餘地所以你有沒有認為說其實\n這樣子的一個要求是顯不合理而且可能已經也違反了或是侵害了這個學生的受教權已經違反了平等原則我不敢直接這樣子說但是我覺得這個是有討論空間\n是 那麼我認為說其實像這樣子的問題未來可能都會成為憲法解釋的這個標的那麼對於就是兩岸人民關係還有對於就是現在陸配或是我們講新台灣之子他們的權利的保護我也希望就是未來如果您有幸能夠成為大法官的話能夠多從保護這些少數族群的角度去思考能夠多維護他們的權利\n請教一個問題麻煩跳到比較後面這個PVT賴清德總統他在之前的憲法演講裡面團結演講裡面他有說這個立法院不可以去介入考試院的職權運用多數去決定公務人員的退休輔續制度這是屬於考試院的權利請問您是否同意這句話\n這句話因為它的那個背景跟實際上想要表達的那個內容我並不是很清楚\n不过就是这是真的就是赖清德总统说的话他首先先讲了宪法第83条考试愿为国家最高考试机关然后掌理什么考试任用权序等等这些资格那么当然他主要是在讲就是说是立法院不应该任意的去修改警消人员的退休金条例也不应该任意的去提高军人待遇条例所以呢他认为说这是属于\n考試院的職權那麼如果說立法院是不可以運用多數決去決定公務人員的退休輔續制度請問如果說不是立法院去立法去規範公務人員退休輔續制度請問考試院要怎麼做考試院可以自己制定辦法制定規則嗎他可以自己制定立法嗎\n好,謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:21.756 --> 00:27.398\n主席好在這邊有請曾法官被提名人法官再請被提名人請說明\n\n00:37.515 --> 00:57.147\n政備提名人您好我想您被提名為大法官身為未來有可能執事憲法擔任憲法守護者還有人權守護者的角色這樣的一個重要的職務所以接下來本席想要請教您一些比較實際上的有關於憲法判決的一些問題\n\n00:58.468 --> 01:25.691\n我不知道说您有没有知道一个新闻就是本周一呢在土城有发生了一件汉人听闻的一个街头杀人案他是一个有家暴前科的凶嫌那么事实上他在开这个要申请紧急保护令的这个停开完停之后呢他大概心生不满就开车去冲撞他的妻子还有小姨子然后随后又持刀杀害了他的妻子\n\n01:26.051 --> 01:39.913\n跟小姨子当场这两个女生就失去生命迹象送医急救后原来是宣告不治那么凶嫌在落网之后他就说他有精神病\n\n01:41.567 --> 02:08.717\n那麼這樣當然他這樣說法就讓人不禁想起就是在去年憲判八號的判決裡面其實大法官對於死刑就設下了重重的條件障礙其中有一項就是如果說有精神病者的話就不可以處死那麼沒想到這樣一個憲法判決竟然就成為這個兇手想要逃脫死刑的護身符\n\n02:09.873 --> 02:29.604\n現在是不是只要自稱有精神病的然後只要犯下了這種滔天殺人的大罪就不能判死那麼這就是回到我剛剛講的就是因為大法官現在他作為一個憲法守護者人權守護者其實在解釋人權議題的時候呢要非常的小心謹慎雖然說我們也知道\n\n02:30.816 --> 02:48.998\n大法官其实在解释的过程当中,他希望能够更进一步的去强化人权的保障。但是我们也观察到近年来大法官在开展这些人权或是自由权保障的议题的时候,常常会忽略了台湾社会的主流民意。\n\n02:49.999 --> 03:10.850\n那跟多数国民的法感情还有国内的法文法文化是背道而驰特别是可能也严重的这个跟我们国民的对于公平正义的一些标准看法相左那么所以像是几个比较众所瞩目的宪法判决除了\n\n03:11.710 --> 03:39.846\n我们刚刚讲的死刑有条件核限的判决宪判自8号的判决之外另外像是大法官宣告通浸罪违宪法院命诽谤人强制道歉的这样的一个处分违宪还有也限缩了侮辱公务员罪的范围等等这些宪法判决其实看在国人的眼里总觉得好像大法官是活在云端很不接地气根本不了解\n\n03:40.246 --> 04:06.373\n民间社会对于正义的价值跟坚持所以呢当然我们也知道了大法官直接做成这些宪法判决的它的这个本质它就是有抗多数决的这个特性可是如果大法官他持续的忽略多数的民意那么不思考国民主权的意义同时做出这些宪法判决可能就会严重侵害到社会的观感\n\n04:07.543 --> 04:29.927\n人民的这个法感情这个也可能会对于法律和实务界会带来很多的困扰跟障碍所以在此的本席想请教你就是你如何看待大法官解释对于社会可能会带来的重大冲击而在人权保障以及社会影响和社会冲击之间你认为要怎么样取得平衡\n\n04:32.759 --> 04:58.471\n關於這件事情其實就是大法官解釋憲法這件事情他不會是就是說他不能依照他自我價值的偏好去取代憲法價值也就是大法官解釋憲法要忠於憲法所以憲法本身他所架構的那個價值體系這個就是他解釋的依據那所以一般來講這個價值體系也有可能隨著時代的變遷會有\n\n05:01.172 --> 05:17.496\n不一樣的解釋內容那這部分當然就要參考我們社會共識的部分那至於抗多數決的部分我覺得是在少數族群的權利保障上面這個部分要特別的去留意它\n\n05:17.796 --> 05:46.317\n应该是这样谢谢政法官您的说明我很赞同您的说法那么到接下来我就要讨论一个比较实质的宪法解释我们知道其实民法跟宪法之间的解释向来来讲是比较少了但是最近这些年来几个重要的解释包含了791号解释我相信您作为民庭的法官应该很清楚知道791号解释就是宣告刑法通奸罪\n\n05:47.377 --> 06:10.451\n因為侵犯了個人性自主權而違憲大法官在791號解釋就是基本上宣告通姦罪違憲所以我們現在已經是沒有通姦罪了那麼近年來其實已經看到有些地方法院的判決它依循著大法官的解釋\n\n06:11.331 --> 06:34.990\n因為通姦除罪了所以呢在這個進行相關的這個民事的損害賠償相關案子當中他就否定了配偶權的存在那會認為說其實受害的配偶的一方是沒有權利可以向出軌的配偶的那一方去請求民事損害賠償的權利那不知道像這樣子的一個見解您是否認同\n\n06:36.630 --> 06:53.691\n我想這個部分大概應該還是比較偏少數的見解就是目前多數還是會認為說配偶權裡面的忠誠義務應該也是算是民法保障的權利之一也就是身份法義之一\n\n06:54.571 --> 07:17.066\n因為大法官其實在791號解釋有說其實這個通姦罪它雖然它是維護忠誠義務的本來它的規定是維護婚姻的忠誠義務但是大法官認為說其實沒有必要透過刑法的方式去處罰當配偶之間有人違反了忠誠義務可是這個議題就在於說\n\n07:24.039 --> 07:30.809\n如果說婚姻關係當中你又承認配偶雙方之間有忠誠義務可是又不承認\n\n07:32.199 --> 07:55.928\n肯认性的忠诚义务是婚姻忠诚义务当中一个很重要的环节所以我想请教政法官您认为在大法官所讲的忠诚义务的概念之下排除了性忠诚义务之后我们的婚姻忠诚义务还剩下什么还有些什么\n\n07:57.059 --> 08:20.348\n我想大法官的意思應該是說當你違背了這樣的一個性忠誠義務的時候他的處罰不應該要用刑事刑罰的手段而他並沒有根本的去否認說配偶之間需要負這樣的義務所以目前這樣的一個情況大概就會變成由民事訴訟來處理他但是你認為現在配偶權還包含了什麼\n\n08:21.806 --> 08:37.781\n如果配偶之間不具有性的忠誠義務我是說大法官並沒有說不要他沒有去否認忠誠義務他只是說不需要用刑事的手段那我現在的意思就是說那麼您認為現在我們的配偶權還存在嗎是啊\n\n08:38.843 --> 08:58.043\n所以配偶權裡面還包含了哪些內涵因為大法官其實是更重視的是個人的性自主權那麼也認為說其實配偶跟配偶之間他不能夠透過性自主權利去綁住另外一個人所以從這個角度來講配偶權裡面他還可以有些什麼樣的內涵\n\n09:00.391 --> 09:27.857\n這個配偶權的這個部分大概它的內涵就是我們民事裡面所謂身份法義就人格權的一部分所以只是在戶政機關上面登記的那個配偶的意思所以受侵害的時候他是可以請求損害賠償或者是在某程度之下他也可以變成離婚的室友我想這個應該都是法律有明文規定的所以民事的損害賠償責任這部分是還是存在的\n\n09:28.868 --> 09:53.086\n不过就是说因为确实大法官的这号解释它的影响层面是很大的然后包含大法官也在解释当中他认为说刑法通奸罪的违宪除了一方面他可能是侵犯了个人的限制主权之外还有一个重要的理由就是因为他在追溯审判的过程当中他有干预人民的隐私\n\n09:53.766 --> 10:14.867\n所以在這裡我想請教的就是說難道在民事訴訟的審判過程當中在處理有關於這種婚姻的出軌的事件事件中在調查證據或是在當事人舉證的過程當中不會有干擾個人隱私的問題不會有侵犯到個人私密生活領域的這些問題嗎\n\n10:17.179 --> 10:40.581\n就是關於民事訴訟的舉證這個部分關於證據能力我們是沒有像刑事訴訟規定的這麼明文這麼嚴格所以通常我們就會去用應該是用比例原則去做衡量也就是他對於那個隱私的侵犯跟他所要達到的這個舉證的目的這個手段之間是不是有相當性合理性這樣\n\n10:42.154 --> 11:01.366\n譬如說錄音啊或者是其他的就是狀況不一樣要具體來看因為其實通姦罪的這個問題在向來我們很多的學術單位或是媒體去做民調其實台灣的多數民意是反對廢除通姦罪的\n\n11:02.369 --> 11:18.938\n可是大法官其實已經不止一次了他在很多的憲法判決上面很明顯的看到他基本上就是違反多數民意包含像通姦罪的除罪化我覺得他這是通姦罪被宣告違憲\n\n11:20.619 --> 11:35.611\n这个议题其实都引起了社会上面非常多的讨论这当然我觉得它实际上也影响了法院实务的判决现在当然是已经有法官有做出来我们刚刚讲他是否认了\n\n11:36.611 --> 11:58.502\n配偶权所以认为说你那个受害的配偶他是无权向出轨的配偶请求损害赔偿的权利固然您说现在这可能还是少数法院少数法官的见解但是我觉得大法官的这个判决事实上他未来有可能会让整个婚姻制度的保障越来越示威\n\n11:59.122 --> 12:28.402\n因为这样的见解已经使得通奸行为从一开始我们认定他是有罪之后到除罪那未来有没有一天可能就是整个通奸行为就合法化了因为当民事法院的法官也越来越认为说我顺着大法官的逻辑事实上似乎是没有配偶权存在的就是已经不具有配偶权因为大法官意思就是说要尊重每个人双方的性自主的权利\n\n12:29.283 --> 12:38.240\n那在這樣的情況之下有沒有可能未來總有一天會走到通姦行為是合法化就算是配偶出軌其實也得不到任何的損害賠償\n\n12:41.109 --> 13:07.934\n首先我要講就是說我們的剛剛講到這些就是地院的見解某程度還是要受到審計制度的檢視這樣子所以說原則上他還是要受到審計制度看最高法院的見解那另外說社會變遷有沒有可能走到內部那我想這個誰都不敢說所以您認為這個791號解釋有沒有之後有機會再修正或改變的地方\n\n13:08.868 --> 13:24.872\n那就要看具體的情況了好好的那麼接下來呢我再請教另外一個案子那麼就是我們知道其實這個賴清德政府上任之後他們已經採取了很多的措施對於陸配是極盡刁難之能事給他們\n\n13:27.453 --> 13:56.357\n非常多在过去其实从来没有要求过的一些事情那么在这边我要举的这个例子就是石雪燕议员她是前南投县议员那么她过去她是原来的身份她是大陆籍的配偶但是她早在2007年的时候就已经在台湾涉及并且2008年就领有国民身份证那么她在110年的时候就当选南投县的县议员\n\n13:58.998 --> 14:15.724\n111年等於說當了一年多的職務在111年年底的時候就卸任了等於說他都已經卸任了可是我們的內政部卻在去年的年底說依國籍法要解除石雪燕議員的公職\n\n14:17.278 --> 14:42.249\n一個很關鍵的理由就是說因為呢石雪硯議員在當他在當議員的那一年之內當時並沒有檢附上司原國籍的證明文件所以認為這個是不符合國籍法的規定因此要解除他的公職本期在這邊想請教你的就是大陸配偶是外國人嗎是用國籍法的規範嗎\n\n14:48.493 --> 15:12.428\n我想這個部分大概就是要適用兩岸關係條例吧應該是適用兩岸關係條例對不對應該是不適用國籍法所以內政部基本上它這個隱據國籍法的規定說已經取得大陸身份證已經取得台灣身份證的陸籍配偶他要提出上司原國籍證明的這件事情是不是就很荒謬\n\n15:13.588 --> 15:35.550\n這個部分因為它具體引用的條文我並不清楚而且我們大概是以戶籍為準吧所以在兩岸人力關係條例裡面講的就是說必須要放棄大陸地區的戶籍或者是護照所以是戶籍的問題那這個部分因為具體引用的條文還有事實的細節並不清楚我就沒有辦法就是任意的去評論它\n\n15:36.531 --> 16:03.275\n是謝謝政法官您的這個您畢竟是專業的法官很清楚兩岸人民關係條例裡面的相關規定當然本席現在今天講的這個完全就是內政部他之所以要解除石雪燕議員公職的一個理由就是說她在任職的一年當中一年當時在一年之內因為依照內政部自己規定說必須要在一年之內要提出上市員國籍的證明文件\n\n16:03.795 --> 16:23.991\n所以这个新闻爆发之后呢其实舆论华人认为说一个大陆籍的配偶已经取得我们国民身份证你要叫他去怎么去放弃原国籍的证明所以呢我认为说其实内政部的这样的一个要求基本上就是一个违法违宪的要求那另外呢我再提一个\n\n16:25.032 --> 16:53.773\n另外一个案例就是最近就是有一名师大附中的学生他去申请国防医学院那只是因为他是在南京出生回台湾涉及不满20年所以呢就被国防医学院拒绝拒绝录取拒绝收他那么最主要的原因就是因为在国防医学院的招生简章当中呢当然他有讲就是必须要在台湾涉及20年然后才可以\n\n16:56.975 --> 17:09.085\n有可以成為國防醫學院軍校學生的資格那麼這個中間其實還涉及到一個就是民進黨政府的從2018年\n\n17:10.966 --> 17:38.846\n开始他们当时就修订了人民关系条例的施行细则在里面的规定就是将陆配子女在大陆地区出生如果说他在出生一年之内没有回到台湾涉及就会变成大陆地区的人口我觉得关键点在这边我们知道其实有很多台商家庭他们可能工作生活在大陆小孩在那边诞生但是他只要出生一年之内没有回到台湾涉及之后他竟然就变成了\n\n17:39.908 --> 17:43.220\n大陸人請問您知道這則新聞嗎\n\n17:45.083 --> 18:09.298\n我有從報章上面得知這個問題好像也是涉及到戶籍設定的問題那他比較就是說因為他要去考這個大學他可能還沒有滿20歲所以他其實是很難符合這樣的一個規定所以這個部分是確實有一些討論的餘地所以你有沒有認為說其實\n\n18:10.800 --> 18:24.394\n這樣子的一個要求是顯不合理而且可能已經也違反了或是侵害了這個學生的受教權已經違反了平等原則我不敢直接這樣子說但是我覺得這個是有討論空間\n\n18:25.993 --> 18:52.251\n是那麼我認為說其實像這樣子的問題未來可能都會成為憲法解釋的這個標的那麼對於就是兩岸人民關係還有對於就是現在陸配或是我們講新台灣之子他們的權利的保護我也希望就是未來如果您有幸能夠成為大法官的話能夠多從保護這些少數族群的角度去思考能夠多維護他們的權利\n\n18:57.134 --> 19:24.073\n請教一個問題麻煩跳到比較後面這個PVT賴清德總統他在之前的憲法演講裡面團結演講裡面他有說這個立法院不可以去介入考試院的職權運用多數去決定公務人員的退休輔續制度這是屬於考試院的權利請問您是否同意這句話\n\n19:26.710 --> 19:33.123\n這句話因為它的那個背景跟實際上想要表達的那個內容我並不是很清楚\n\n19:34.398 --> 19:59.999\n不过就是这是真的就是赖清德总统说的话他首先先讲了宪法第83条考试愿为国家最高考试机关然后掌理什么考试任用权序等等这些资格那么当然他主要是在讲就是说是立法院不应该任意的去修改警消人员的退休金条例也不应该任意的去提高军人待遇条例所以呢他认为说这是属于\n\n20:00.339 --> 20:23.988\n考試院的職權那麼如果說立法院是不可以運用多數決去決定公務人員的退休輔續制度請問如果說不是立法院去立法去規範公務人員退休輔續制度請問考試院要怎麼做考試院可以自己制定辦法制定規則嗎他可以自己制定立法嗎\n\n20:28.868 --> 20:28.888\n好,謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":21.756,"end":27.398,"text":"主席好 在這邊有請曾法官被提名人法官再請被提名人 請說明"},{"start":37.515,"end":57.147,"text":"政備提名人您好我想您被提名為大法官身為未來有可能執事憲法擔任憲法守護者還有人權守護者的角色這樣的一個重要的職務所以接下來本席想要請教您一些比較實際上的有關於憲法判決的一些問題"},{"start":58.468,"end":85.691,"text":"我不知道说您有没有知道一个新闻就是本周一呢在土城有发生了一件汉人听闻的一个街头杀人案他是一个有家暴前科的凶嫌那么事实上他在开这个要申请紧急保护令的这个停开完停之后呢他大概心生不满就开车去冲撞他的妻子还有小姨子然后随后又持刀杀害了他的妻子"},{"start":86.051,"end":99.913,"text":"跟小姨子当场这两个女生就失去生命迹象送医急救后原来是宣告不治那么凶嫌在落网之后他就说他有精神病"},{"start":101.567,"end":128.717,"text":"那麼這樣當然他這樣說法就讓人不禁想起就是在去年憲判八號的判決裡面其實大法官對於死刑就設下了重重的條件障礙其中有一項就是如果說有精神病者的話就不可以處死那麼沒想到這樣一個憲法判決竟然就成為這個兇手想要逃脫死刑的護身符"},{"start":129.873,"end":149.604,"text":"現在是不是只要自稱有精神病的然後只要犯下了這種滔天殺人的大罪就不能判死那麼這就是回到我剛剛講的就是因為大法官現在他作為一個憲法守護者人權守護者其實在解釋人權議題的時候呢要非常的小心謹慎雖然說我們也知道"},{"start":150.816,"end":168.998,"text":"大法官其实在解释的过程当中,他希望能够更进一步的去强化人权的保障。但是我们也观察到近年来大法官在开展这些人权或是自由权保障的议题的时候,常常会忽略了台湾社会的主流民意。"},{"start":169.999,"end":190.85,"text":"那跟多数国民的法感情还有国内的法文法文化是背道而驰特别是可能也严重的这个跟我们国民的对于公平正义的一些标准看法相左那么所以像是几个比较众所瞩目的宪法判决除了"},{"start":191.71,"end":219.846,"text":"我们刚刚讲的死刑有条件核限的判决宪判自8号的判决之外另外像是大法官宣告通浸罪违宪法院命诽谤人强制道歉的这样的一个处分违宪还有也限缩了侮辱公务员罪的范围等等这些宪法判决其实看在国人的眼里总觉得好像大法官是活在云端很不接地气根本不了解"},{"start":220.246,"end":246.373,"text":"民间社会对于正义的价值跟坚持所以呢当然我们也知道了大法官直接做成这些宪法判决的它的这个本质它就是有抗多数决的这个特性可是如果大法官他持续的忽略多数的民意那么不思考国民主权的意义同时做出这些宪法判决可能就会严重侵害到社会的观感"},{"start":247.543,"end":269.927,"text":"人民的这个法感情这个也可能会对于法律和实务界会带来很多的困扰跟障碍所以在此的本席想请教你就是你如何看待大法官解释对于社会可能会带来的重大冲击而在人权保障以及社会影响和社会冲击之间你认为要怎么样取得平衡"},{"start":272.759,"end":298.471,"text":"關於這件事情其實就是大法官解釋憲法這件事情他不會是就是說他不能依照他自我價值的偏好去取代憲法價值也就是大法官解釋憲法要忠於憲法所以憲法本身他所架構的那個價值體系這個就是他解釋的依據那所以一般來講這個價值體系也有可能隨著時代的變遷會有"},{"start":301.172,"end":317.496,"text":"不一樣的解釋內容那這部分當然就要參考我們社會共識的部分那至於抗多數決的部分我覺得是在少數族群的權利保障上面這個部分要特別的去留意它"},{"start":317.796,"end":346.317,"text":"应该是这样谢谢政法官您的说明我很赞同您的说法那么到接下来我就要讨论一个比较实质的宪法解释我们知道其实民法跟宪法之间的解释向来来讲是比较少了但是最近这些年来几个重要的解释包含了791号解释我相信您作为民庭的法官应该很清楚知道791号解释就是宣告刑法通奸罪"},{"start":347.377,"end":370.451,"text":"因為侵犯了個人性自主權而違憲大法官在791號解釋就是基本上宣告通姦罪違憲所以我們現在已經是沒有通姦罪了那麼近年來其實已經看到有些地方法院的判決它依循著大法官的解釋"},{"start":371.331,"end":394.99,"text":"因為通姦除罪了所以呢在這個進行相關的這個民事的損害賠償相關案子當中他就否定了配偶權的存在那會認為說其實受害的配偶的一方是沒有權利可以向出軌的配偶的那一方去請求民事損害賠償的權利那不知道像這樣子的一個見解您是否認同"},{"start":396.63,"end":413.691,"text":"我想這個部分大概應該還是比較偏少數的見解就是目前多數還是會認為說配偶權裡面的忠誠義務應該也是算是民法保障的權利之一也就是身份法義之一"},{"start":414.571,"end":437.066,"text":"因為大法官其實在791號解釋有說其實這個通姦罪它雖然它是維護忠誠義務的本來它的規定是維護婚姻的忠誠義務但是大法官認為說其實沒有必要透過刑法的方式去處罰當配偶之間有人違反了忠誠義務可是這個議題就在於說"},{"start":444.039,"end":450.809,"text":"如果說婚姻關係當中你又承認配偶雙方之間有忠誠義務可是又不承認"},{"start":452.199,"end":475.928,"text":"肯认性的忠诚义务是婚姻忠诚义务当中一个很重要的环节所以我想请教政法官您认为在大法官所讲的忠诚义务的概念之下排除了性忠诚义务之后我们的婚姻忠诚义务还剩下什么还有些什么"},{"start":477.059,"end":500.348,"text":"我想大法官的意思應該是說當你違背了這樣的一個性忠誠義務的時候他的處罰不應該要用刑事刑罰的手段而他並沒有根本的去否認說配偶之間需要負這樣的義務所以目前這樣的一個情況大概就會變成由民事訴訟來處理他但是你認為現在配偶權還包含了什麼"},{"start":501.806,"end":517.781,"text":"如果配偶之間不具有性的忠誠義務我是說大法官並沒有說不要他沒有去否認忠誠義務他只是說不需要用刑事的手段那我現在的意思就是說那麼您認為現在我們的配偶權還存在嗎是啊"},{"start":518.843,"end":538.043,"text":"所以配偶權裡面還包含了哪些內涵因為大法官其實是更重視的是個人的性自主權那麼也認為說其實配偶跟配偶之間他不能夠透過性自主權利去綁住另外一個人所以從這個角度來講配偶權裡面他還可以有些什麼樣的內涵"},{"start":540.391,"end":567.857,"text":"這個配偶權的這個部分大概它的內涵就是我們民事裡面所謂身份法義就人格權的一部分所以只是在戶政機關上面登記的那個配偶的意思所以受侵害的時候他是可以請求損害賠償或者是在某程度之下他也可以變成離婚的室友我想這個應該都是法律有明文規定的所以民事的損害賠償責任這部分是還是存在的"},{"start":568.868,"end":593.086,"text":"不过就是说因为确实大法官的这号解释它的影响层面是很大的然后包含大法官也在解释当中他认为说刑法通奸罪的违宪除了一方面他可能是侵犯了个人的限制主权之外还有一个重要的理由就是因为他在追溯审判的过程当中他有干预人民的隐私"},{"start":593.766,"end":614.867,"text":"所以在這裡我想請教的就是說難道在民事訴訟的審判過程當中在處理有關於這種婚姻的出軌的事件事件中在調查證據或是在當事人舉證的過程當中不會有干擾個人隱私的問題不會有侵犯到個人私密生活領域的這些問題嗎"},{"start":617.179,"end":640.581,"text":"就是關於民事訴訟的舉證這個部分關於證據能力我們是沒有像刑事訴訟規定的這麼明文這麼嚴格所以通常我們就會去用應該是用比例原則去做衡量也就是他對於那個隱私的侵犯跟他所要達到的這個舉證的目的這個手段之間是不是有相當性合理性這樣"},{"start":642.154,"end":661.366,"text":"譬如說錄音啊或者是其他的就是狀況不一樣要具體來看因為其實通姦罪的這個問題在向來我們很多的學術單位或是媒體去做民調其實台灣的多數民意是反對廢除通姦罪的"},{"start":662.369,"end":678.938,"text":"可是大法官其實已經不止一次了他在很多的憲法判決上面很明顯的看到他基本上就是違反多數民意包含像通姦罪的除罪化我覺得他這是通姦罪被宣告違憲"},{"start":680.619,"end":695.611,"text":"这个议题其实都引起了社会上面非常多的讨论这当然我觉得它实际上也影响了法院实务的判决现在当然是已经有法官有做出来我们刚刚讲他是否认了"},{"start":696.611,"end":718.502,"text":"配偶权所以认为说你那个受害的配偶他是无权向出轨的配偶请求损害赔偿的权利固然您说现在这可能还是少数法院少数法官的见解但是我觉得大法官的这个判决事实上他未来有可能会让整个婚姻制度的保障越来越示威"},{"start":719.122,"end":748.402,"text":"因为这样的见解已经使得通奸行为从一开始我们认定他是有罪之后到除罪那未来有没有一天可能就是整个通奸行为就合法化了因为当民事法院的法官也越来越认为说我顺着大法官的逻辑事实上似乎是没有配偶权存在的就是已经不具有配偶权因为大法官意思就是说要尊重每个人双方的性自主的权利"},{"start":749.283,"end":758.24,"text":"那在這樣的情況之下有沒有可能未來總有一天會走到通姦行為是合法化就算是配偶出軌其實也得不到任何的損害賠償"},{"start":761.109,"end":787.934,"text":"首先我要講就是說我們的剛剛講到這些就是地院的見解某程度還是要受到審計制度的檢視這樣子所以說原則上他還是要受到審計制度看最高法院的見解那另外說社會變遷有沒有可能走到內部那我想這個誰都不敢說所以您認為這個791號解釋有沒有之後有機會再修正或改變的地方"},{"start":788.868,"end":804.872,"text":"那就要看具體的情況了好好的那麼接下來呢我再請教另外一個案子那麼就是我們知道其實這個賴清德政府上任之後他們已經採取了很多的措施對於陸配是極盡刁難之能事給他們"},{"start":807.453,"end":836.357,"text":"非常多在过去其实从来没有要求过的一些事情那么在这边我要举的这个例子就是石雪燕议员她是前南投县议员那么她过去她是原来的身份她是大陆籍的配偶但是她早在2007年的时候就已经在台湾涉及并且2008年就领有国民身份证那么她在110年的时候就当选南投县的县议员"},{"start":838.998,"end":855.724,"text":"111年等於說當了一年多的職務在111年年底的時候就卸任了等於說他都已經卸任了可是我們的內政部卻在去年的年底說依國籍法要解除石雪燕議員的公職"},{"start":857.278,"end":882.249,"text":"一個很關鍵的理由就是說因為呢石雪硯議員在當他在當議員的那一年之內當時並沒有檢附上司原國籍的證明文件所以認為這個是不符合國籍法的規定因此要解除他的公職本期在這邊想請教你的就是大陸配偶是外國人嗎是用國籍法的規範嗎"},{"start":888.493,"end":912.428,"text":"我想這個部分大概就是要適用兩岸關係條例吧應該是適用兩岸關係條例對不對應該是不適用國籍法所以內政部基本上它這個隱據國籍法的規定說已經取得大陸身份證已經取得台灣身份證的陸籍配偶他要提出上司原國籍證明的這件事情是不是就很荒謬"},{"start":913.588,"end":935.55,"text":"這個部分因為它具體引用的條文我並不清楚而且我們大概是以戶籍為準吧所以在兩岸人力關係條例裡面講的就是說必須要放棄大陸地區的戶籍或者是護照所以是戶籍的問題那這個部分因為具體引用的條文還有事實的細節並不清楚我就沒有辦法就是任意的去評論它"},{"start":936.531,"end":963.275,"text":"是謝謝政法官您的這個您畢竟是專業的法官很清楚兩岸人民關係條例裡面的相關規定當然本席現在今天講的這個完全就是內政部他之所以要解除石雪燕議員公職的一個理由就是說她在任職的一年當中一年當時在一年之內因為依照內政部自己規定說必須要在一年之內要提出上市員國籍的證明文件"},{"start":963.795,"end":983.991,"text":"所以这个新闻爆发之后呢其实舆论华人认为说一个大陆籍的配偶已经取得我们国民身份证你要叫他去怎么去放弃原国籍的证明所以呢我认为说其实内政部的这样的一个要求基本上就是一个违法违宪的要求那另外呢我再提一个"},{"start":985.032,"end":1013.773,"text":"另外一个案例就是最近就是有一名师大附中的学生他去申请国防医学院那只是因为他是在南京出生回台湾涉及不满20年所以呢就被国防医学院拒绝拒绝录取拒绝收他那么最主要的原因就是因为在国防医学院的招生简章当中呢当然他有讲就是必须要在台湾涉及20年然后才可以"},{"start":1016.975,"end":1029.085,"text":"有可以成為國防醫學院軍校學生的資格那麼這個中間其實還涉及到一個就是民進黨政府的從2018年"},{"start":1030.966,"end":1058.846,"text":"开始他们当时就修订了人民关系条例的施行细则在里面的规定就是将陆配子女在大陆地区出生如果说他在出生一年之内没有回到台湾涉及就会变成大陆地区的人口我觉得关键点在这边我们知道其实有很多台商家庭他们可能工作生活在大陆小孩在那边诞生但是他只要出生一年之内没有回到台湾涉及之后他竟然就变成了"},{"start":1059.908,"end":1063.22,"text":"大陸人請問您知道這則新聞嗎"},{"start":1065.083,"end":1089.298,"text":"我有從報章上面得知這個問題好像也是涉及到戶籍設定的問題那他比較就是說因為他要去考這個大學他可能還沒有滿20歲所以他其實是很難符合這樣的一個規定所以這個部分是確實有一些討論的餘地所以你有沒有認為說其實"},{"start":1090.8,"end":1104.394,"text":"這樣子的一個要求是顯不合理而且可能已經也違反了或是侵害了這個學生的受教權已經違反了平等原則我不敢直接這樣子說但是我覺得這個是有討論空間"},{"start":1105.993,"end":1132.251,"text":"是 那麼我認為說其實像這樣子的問題未來可能都會成為憲法解釋的這個標的那麼對於就是兩岸人民關係還有對於就是現在陸配或是我們講新台灣之子他們的權利的保護我也希望就是未來如果您有幸能夠成為大法官的話能夠多從保護這些少數族群的角度去思考能夠多維護他們的權利"},{"start":1137.134,"end":1164.073,"text":"請教一個問題麻煩跳到比較後面這個PVT賴清德總統他在之前的憲法演講裡面團結演講裡面他有說這個立法院不可以去介入考試院的職權運用多數去決定公務人員的退休輔續制度這是屬於考試院的權利請問您是否同意這句話"},{"start":1166.71,"end":1173.123,"text":"這句話因為它的那個背景跟實際上想要表達的那個內容我並不是很清楚"},{"start":1174.398,"end":1199.999,"text":"不过就是这是真的就是赖清德总统说的话他首先先讲了宪法第83条考试愿为国家最高考试机关然后掌理什么考试任用权序等等这些资格那么当然他主要是在讲就是说是立法院不应该任意的去修改警消人员的退休金条例也不应该任意的去提高军人待遇条例所以呢他认为说这是属于"},{"start":1200.339,"end":1223.988,"text":"考試院的職權那麼如果說立法院是不可以運用多數決去決定公務人員的退休輔續制度請問如果說不是立法院去立法去規範公務人員退休輔續制度請問考試院要怎麼做考試院可以自己制定辦法制定規則嗎他可以自己制定立法嗎"},{"start":1228.868,"end":1228.888,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":68,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（14時52分）主席好，有請鄭法官被提名人。"],["主席：麻煩再請被提名人說明。"],["翁委員曉玲：鄭被提名人，你好。"],["鄭純惠被提名人：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：您被提名為大法官，身為未來有可能實施憲法，擔任憲法守護者還有人權守護者的角色這樣一個重要的職務，所以接下來本席想要請教您一些比較實際上有關於憲法判決的問題。","我不知道您知不知道一個新聞，就是本週一在土城發生了一件駭人聽聞的街頭殺人案，他是一個有家暴前科的兇嫌，事實上，他開完要聲請緊急保護令的庭之後，他大概心生不滿，就開車去衝撞他的妻子還有小姨子，隨後又持刀殺害了他的妻子跟小姨子，當場這兩個女生就失去生命跡象，然後送醫急救後仍然是宣告不治，兇嫌在落網之後，他就說他有精神病，當然他這樣的說法就會讓人不禁想起在去年憲判字第8號的判決裡面，其實大法官對於死刑就設下了重重的條件障礙，其中有一項就是，如果有精神病的話就不可以處死，沒想到這樣的一個憲法判決竟然就成為兇手想要逃脫死刑的護身符，現在是不是只要自稱有精神病的，只要犯下了這種滔天殺人的大罪就不能判死？這就是回到我剛剛講的，就是因為大法官作為一個憲法守護者、人權守護者，其實在解釋人權議題的時候要非常地小心謹慎，雖然我們也知道大法官在解釋的過程當中，他希望能夠更進一步地去強化人權的保障。但是我們也觀察到，近年來大法官在開展這些人權或是自由權保障議題的時候，常常會忽略了臺灣社會的主流民意，跟多數國民的法感情，還有國內的法文化是背道而馳，特別是可能也嚴重地跟我們國民對於公平正義的一些標準看法相左，所以像是幾個比較眾所矚目的憲法判決，除了我們剛剛講的死刑有條件合憲的判決，也就是憲判字第8號的判決之外，另外像是大法官宣告通姦罪違憲，法院命誹謗人強制道歉這樣的處分是違憲，還有也限縮了侮辱公務員罪的範圍等等這些憲法判決，其實看在國人的眼裡，總覺得大法官好像是活在雲端，很不接地氣，根本不了解民間社會對於正義的價值跟堅持。","當然我們也知道啦！大法官其實做成這些憲法判決的這個本質就是有抗多數決的特性，可是如果大法官持續地忽略多數的民意，不思考國民主權的意義，同時做出這些憲法判決，可能就會嚴重侵害到社會的觀感及人民的法感情，這個也可能會對於法律和實務界帶來很多的困擾跟障礙。所以在此，本席想請教你如何看待大法官解釋對於社會可能會帶來的重大衝擊？而在人權保障以及社會影響和社會衝擊之間，你認為要怎麼樣取得平衡？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：關於大法官解釋憲法這件事情，他不會是……就是他不能依照他自我價值的偏好去取代憲法價值，也就是大法官解釋憲法要忠於憲法，所以憲法本身它所架構的價值體系，就是他解釋的依據。一般來講，這個價值體系也有可能隨著時代的變遷會有不一樣的解釋內容，這部分當然就要參考我們社會共識的部分；至於抗多數決的部分，我覺得只是在少數族群的權利保障上面，這個部分要特別地去留意它，應該是這樣。"],["翁委員曉玲：是的，好，謝謝鄭法官您的說明，我很贊同您的說法。接下來我要討論比較實質的憲法解釋，我們知道民法跟憲法之間的解釋來講是比較少啦！但是最近這些年來幾個重要的解釋，包含了第791號解釋，我相信您作為民庭的法官應該很清楚知道，第791號解釋就是宣告刑法通姦罪違憲，因為侵犯了個人性自主權而違憲，就是大法官在第791號解釋，基本上宣告通姦罪違憲，所以我們現在已經是沒有通姦罪了。","近年來，已經看到有些地方法院的判決，他們依循著大法官的解釋，因為通姦除罪了，所以在進行民事的損害賠償相關案件當中，它就否定了配偶權的存在，會認為受害配偶的一方是沒有權利可以向出軌配偶的另一方請求民事損害賠償的權利，不知道像這樣的見解，您是否認同？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：我想這個部分大概應該還是比較偏少數的見解，目前多數還是會認為配偶權裡的忠誠義務應該也算是民法保障的權利之一，也就是身分法益之一。"],["翁委員曉玲：OK。因為大法官其實在第791號解釋有說，通姦罪雖然是維護忠誠義務的……本來它的規定是維護婚姻的忠誠義務，但是大法官認為其實沒有必要透過刑法的方式去處罰，當配偶之間有人違反了忠誠義務。可是這個議題就在於，如果婚姻關係當中，你又承認配偶雙方之間有忠誠義務，可是又不承認、肯認性的忠誠義務是婚姻忠誠義務當中很重要的一個環節，所以我想請教鄭法官，您認為在大法官所講的這個忠誠義務概念之下，排除了性忠誠義務之後，我們的婚姻忠誠義務還剩下什麼？還有些什麼？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：我想大法官的意思應該是，當你違背了這樣的性忠誠義務的時候，它的處罰不應該要用刑事刑罰的手段，而他並沒有根本地去否認配偶之間需要負這樣的義務，所以目前這樣的情況，大概就會變成由民事訴訟來處理。"],["翁委員曉玲：但是您認為現在配偶權還包含了什麼？如果配偶之間不具有性的忠誠義務。"],["鄭純惠被提名人：不是，我是說大法官並沒有說不要，他沒有去否認忠誠義務，他只是說不需要用刑事的手段去處理。"],["翁委員曉玲：我現在的意思就是，您認為現在我們的配偶權還存在嗎？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：是啊！"],["翁委員曉玲：所以配偶權裡面還包含了哪些內涵？因為大法官更重視的其實是個人的性自主權，那麼我們也認為配偶跟配偶之間不能夠透過性自主權去綁住另外一個人，所以，從這個角度來講，配偶權還可以有些什麼樣的內涵？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：配偶權的這個部分，大概它的內涵就是我們民事裡面所謂身分法益，就是人格權的一部分。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以只是在戶政機關上面登記的那個配偶意義？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：所以受侵害的時候，它可以用來請求損害賠償，或者是在某程度之下，它也可以變成離婚的事由，我想這應該都是法律有明文規定的，所以民事的損害賠償責任這部分還是存在的。"],["翁委員曉玲：不過，因為大法官這號解釋的影響層面是很大的，然後包含大法官也在解釋當中認為刑法通姦罪的違憲，除了一方面它可能是侵犯了個人的性自主權之外，還有一個重要的理由，就是因為在追訴審判的過程當中，它有干預人民的隱私，所以在這裡我想請教，難道在民事訴訟的審判過程當中，在處理這種婚姻出軌事件的過程中，在調查證據或在當事人舉證的過程當中，不會有干擾個人隱私的問題？不會有侵犯到個人私密生活領域的這些問題嗎？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：關於民事訴訟舉證這個部分，關於證據能力，我們是沒有像刑事訴訟規定得這麼明文、這麼嚴格，所以通常我們就會用應該是比例原則去做衡量，也就是它對於隱私的侵犯跟它所要達到的舉證目的之間，這個手段是不是有相當性、合理性，比如錄音或其他的，狀況不一樣，要具體來看。"],["翁委員曉玲：因為通姦罪這個問題，向來我們很多學術單位或媒體去做民調都顯示，其實臺灣多數民意是反對廢除通姦罪的，可是大法官已經不只一次在很多憲法判決上，很明顯地看到基本上是違反多數民意的，包含像通姦罪的除罪化、通姦罪被宣告違憲這個議案，其實都引起了社會上面非常多的討論，當然我覺得它實際上也影響了法院實務的判決，現在已經有法官做出判決，我們剛剛講，否認了配偶權，認為受害的配偶無權向出軌的配偶請求損害賠償的，固然您說現在這可能還是少數法院、少數法官的見解，但是我覺得大法官的判決事實上未來有可能會讓整個婚姻制度的保障越來越式微，因為這樣的見解已經使得通姦行為從一開始的我們認定它有罪，之後到除罪，有沒有可能未來有一天通姦行為就合法化了？因為當民事法院的法官也越來越認為，順著大法官的邏輯，事實上似乎已經不具有配偶權了，因為每個大法官都說要尊重雙方的性自主權利，在這樣的情況之下，有沒有可能未來總有一天會走到通姦行為合法化，就算是配偶出軌，也得不到任何的損害賠償？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：首先我要講的就是，我們剛剛講到這些地院的見解，某程度還是要受到審級制度的檢視，就是原則上它還是要受到審級制度的檢視，看最高法院的見解。另外，社會變遷有沒有可能走到那一步，我想這個誰都不敢說。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以您認為這個791號解釋之後有沒有機會再修正或改變的地方？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：那就要看具體的情況。"],["翁委員曉玲：好的。接下來我再請教另外一個案子，我們知道賴清德政府上任之後，他們已經採取了很多措施，對於陸配是極盡刁難之能事，給他們非常多……在過去其實從來沒有要求過的一些事情。在這邊我要舉的這個例子就是史雪燕議員，他是前南投縣議員，他原來的身分是大陸籍的配偶，但是他早在2007年的時候就已經在臺灣設籍，並且2008年就領有國民身分證；他在110年的時候就當選南投縣的縣議員，到111年，等於當了一年多這個職務，在111年年底的時候就卸任了。等於說他都已經卸任了，可是我們的內政部卻在去年的年底說依國籍法要解除史雪燕議員的公職。一個很關鍵的理由就是，因為史雪燕議員在他當議員的那一年之內，當時並沒有檢附喪失原國籍的證明文件，所以認為這個是不符合國籍法的規定，因此要解除他的公職。本席在這邊想請教你的就是，大陸配偶是外國人嗎？適用國籍法的規範嗎？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：我想這個部分大概就是要適用兩岸關係條例。"],["翁委員曉玲：應該是適用兩岸關係條例，對不對？應該是不適用國籍法。所以內政部基本上它引據國籍法的規定，說已經取得臺灣身分證的陸籍配偶，他要提出喪失原國籍證明的這件事情，是不是就很荒謬？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：這個部分，因為它具體引用的條文我並不清楚，而且我們大概是以戶籍為準，所以並……"],["翁委員曉玲：是的，在兩岸人民關係條例裡面……"],["鄭純惠被提名人：對，是以戶籍……"],["翁委員曉玲：講的就是必須要放棄大陸地區的戶籍……"],["鄭純惠被提名人：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：或者是護照。"],["鄭純惠被提名人：對，所以是戶籍的問題，這個部分因為具體引用的條文還有事實的細節並不清楚，我就沒有辦法任意去評論它。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，謝謝鄭法官，您畢竟是專業的法官，很清楚兩岸人民關係條例裡面的相關規定。當然本席今天講的這個完全就是內政部之所以要解除史雪燕議員公職的一個理由，就是他在任職的一年當中，當時在一年之內，因為依照內政部自己規定說必須在一年之內要提出喪失原國籍的證明文件，所以這個新聞爆發之後輿論譁然，認為一個大陸籍的配偶已經取得我們的國民身分證，你要叫他怎麼去放棄原國籍……的證明？所以我認為其實內政部這樣的要求，基本上就是一個違法、違憲的要求。","另外我再提另外一個案例，最近有一名師大附中的學生，他去申請國防醫學院，只因為他是在南京出生，回臺灣設籍不滿20年，所以就被國防醫學院拒絕錄取、拒絕收他。最主要的原因就是因為在國防醫學院的招生簡章當中，當然他有講就是必須要在臺灣設籍20年，然後才可以錄取、可以有成為國防醫學院軍校學生的這個資格。那麼這中間其實還涉及到一個，就是民進黨政府從2018年開始，他們當時就修訂了兩岸人民關係條例的施行細則，在裡面的規定就是將陸配子女在大陸地區出生的，如果他在出生一年之內沒有回到臺灣設籍，就會變成大陸地區的人口。我覺得關鍵點在這邊，我們知道其實有很多臺商，他們可能工作、生活在大陸，小孩在那邊誕生，但是他只要出生一年之內沒有回到臺灣設籍，之後他竟然就變成了大陸人。請問您知道這則新聞嗎？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：我有從報章上面了解。我想這個問題……"],["翁委員曉玲：你有沒有覺得，這樣的一個新聞，可能已經……"],["鄭純惠被提名人：這個問題好像也是涉及到戶籍設定的問題，就是因為他要去考這個大學，他可能還沒有滿20歲……"],["翁委員曉玲：是的。"],["鄭純惠被提名人：他其實是很難符合這樣的一個規定，所以這個部分是確實有一些討論的餘地。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以您有沒有認為其實這樣子的一個要求是顯不合理，而且可能已經也違反了或是侵害了這位學生的受教權，已經違反了平等原則？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：我不敢直接這樣子說，但是我覺得這個是有討論空間。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，我認為其實像這樣子的問題，未來可能都會成為憲法解釋的標的，那麼對於兩岸人民關係，還有對於現在陸配或是我們講的新臺灣之子他們的權利保護，我也希望未來如果您有幸能夠成為大法官的話，能夠多從保護這些少數族群的角度去思考，能夠多維護他們的權利。","接下來，我想要再請教一個問題，賴清德總統在之前的團結演講裡面，他有說立法院不可以介入考試院的職權，運用多數去決定公務人員的退休撫卹制度，這是屬於考試院的權力。請問您是否同意這句話？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：這句話因為它的背景跟實際上他想要表達的那個內容，我並不是很清楚。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，不過這真的就是賴清德總統說的話，他首先先講了憲法第八十三條，考試院為國家最高考試機關，然後掌理什麼考試、任用、銓敘等等這些資格，那麼當然他主要是在講立法院不應該任意地去修改警消人員的退休金條例，也不應該任意地去提高軍人待遇條例，所以他認為這是屬於考試院的職權，那麼如果立法院是不可以運用多數決去決定公務人員的退休撫卹制度，如果不是立法院去立法、去規範公務人員退休撫卹制度，請問考試院要怎麼做？考試院可以自己制訂辦法、制訂規則嗎？它可以自己制訂立法嗎？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：這個部分我真的沒有辦法很直接地回答，因為……"],["翁委員曉玲：不過從形式上來看，我想這應該就是依法吧，對不對？"],["鄭純惠被提名人：對，就是……"],["翁委員曉玲：考試院必須依法行政、必須依法去管理。"],["鄭純惠被提名人：我想應該是都一樣，大家權力分立各依法行政，這樣子。"],["翁委員曉玲：好的，謝謝鄭法官的說明。"],["鄭純惠被提名人：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝翁曉玲委員的詢問，也謝謝被提名人鄭法官的說明。","接下來請陳素月委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳宗憲","麥玉珍","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","賴惠員","陳菁徽","何欣純","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳素月","林倩綺","鍾佳濱","徐欣瑩","張雅琳","蘇清泉","林憶君","林楚茵","陳永康","王美惠"],"page_start":365,"meetingDate":["2025-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1146501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146501_00006","1146501_00007","1146501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規\n定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並\n以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案","agenda_id":"1146501_00004"}}}