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\"score\": 0.723}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 369.502, \"end\": 369.522, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 391.892, \"end\": 396.581, \"text\": \"必須是提出事先的立法委員在立法過程中必須反對\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"必\", \"start\": 391.892, \"end\": 392.273, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"須\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 392.273, \"end\": 393.175, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 393.175, \"end\": 393.335, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 393.335, \"end\": 393.655, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 393.655, \"end\": 393.796, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 393.796, \"end\": 393.916, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 393.916, \"end\": 394.016, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 394.016, \"end\": 394.136, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 394.136, \"end\": 394.297, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 394.297, \"end\": 394.978, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 394.978, \"end\": 395.299, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 395.299, \"end\": 395.459, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 395.459, \"end\": 395.78, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 395.78, \"end\": 395.96, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 395.96, \"end\": 396.24, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"必\", \"start\": 396.24, \"end\": 396.561, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"須\"}, {\"word\": \"反\", \"start\": 396.561, \"end\": 396.581, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"對\"}]}, {\"start\": 397.998, \"end\": 426.165, \"text\": \"那現在的憲法訴訟法也採取這樣的方式所以假設你在制定法律的時候沒有反對你就不能提釋憲我想這是一個防止濫權的方式也就是說在立法的時候我什麼都不講反正到時候再提釋憲我想這是一個防止的方式那第二個防止大法官介入這個濫訴當然我們大法官在涉及到中華民國領土判委的時候就提出一個概念就是政治問題政治問題我們不介入\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 397.998, \"end\": 398.298, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 398.298, \"end\": 398.458, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 398.458, \"end\": 399.798, \"score\": 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{\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1136.65, \"end\": 1137.291, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 1137.291, \"end\": 1137.551, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1137.551, \"end\": 1137.751, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1137.751, \"end\": 1137.891, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 1137.891, \"end\": 1138.071, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 1138.071, \"end\": 1138.092, \"score\": 0.997}]}, {\"start\": 1139.246, \"end\": 1146.483, \"text\": \"這是民眾民意所支持的法案我們重新再制定相同的法規或是類似的法規這有違憲嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1139.246, \"end\": 1139.907, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 1139.907, \"end\": 1140.489, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"眾\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 1140.489, \"end\": 1140.729, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 1140.729, \"end\": 1141.411, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 1141.411, \"end\": 1141.652, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"支\", \"start\": 1141.652, \"end\": 1141.892, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 1141.892, \"end\": 1142.012, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1142.012, \"end\": 1142.153, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 1142.153, \"end\": 1142.313, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 1142.313, \"end\": 1142.574, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1142.574, \"end\": 1142.955, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 1142.955, \"end\": 1143.296, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 1143.296, \"end\": 1143.757, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 1143.757, \"end\": 1144.037, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 1144.037, \"end\": 1144.278, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 1144.278, \"end\": 1144.519, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 1144.519, \"end\": 1144.779, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 1144.779, \"end\": 1144.96, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1144.96, \"end\": 1145.06, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 1145.06, \"end\": 1145.401, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 1145.401, \"end\": 1145.521, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1145.521, \"end\": 1145.982, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"類\"}, {\"word\": \"似\", \"start\": 1145.982, \"end\": 1146.123, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1146.123, \"end\": 1146.243, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 1146.243, \"end\": 1146.463, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1146.463, \"end\": 1146.483, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"違\"}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 1148.928, \"end\": 1169.569, \"text\": \"首先就是有關於有沒有拘束大法官我想大法官的制度裡面本來就可以做補充解釋而且我們大法官制度裡面本來就有後面的憲法判決推翻前面大法官的這個例子就是那個強制道歉的案子所以拘束力是有但是原則上是相對的只要你的後面的理由是正確的\", 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00:00:36,356\n院長好這邊先有請蕭教授麻煩再請被提名人蕭教授說明\n\n3\n00:00:43,015 --> 00:01:05,971\n好委員好是蕭貝廷您人好我在這邊其實還是習慣尊稱您為蕭老師蕭教授所以我想待會質詢的時候呢我就以蕭教授來這個稱會然後來跟您進行一些討論我想就是在這次這個蕭老師您被提名為大法官的這個候選人\n\n4\n00:01:06,471 --> 00:01:33,931\n那事實上以我個人的觀點因為蕭老師您在我們學界也是得高望重而且非常認真然後學有專精的學者所以我其實是很高興看到您能夠被提名為大法官候選人不過因為現在我們的憲政也面臨到一些比較困難的處境尤其是憲政爭議不斷所以在這邊我待會也會請教您幾個\n\n5\n00:01:35,653 --> 00:02:03,320\n與市縣有關的一些問題我們知道其實從賴清德總統上任以來目前他執政一年可是行政院他所提起的復議的次數是創下有史以來的記錄我不知道您曉不曉得我們從我們行縣以來一直到113年賴清德總統上任之前我們曾經有過多少次的行政院所提起的復議案\n\n6\n00:02:05,101 --> 00:02:30,398\n具體的數字我不知道但是很少因為以前的規定還有包括行政院長要辭職所以提出復議案的風險很大所以提出的數量應該是個位數吧我這邊告訴您就是從行政院一直到113年的2月之前我們總共只有13次的復議案但是從賴清德總統他去年5月就職之後到現在\n\n7\n00:02:31,178 --> 00:02:54,721\n行政院已經提起了七次的復議而且是屢敗屢戰但是即便如此我們預期他還會繼續對他們不合意不滿意的法案來提起復議那麼現在這個行政院他提起復議失敗之後他並沒有很認分的就說是依法去行政而是他很快就會提起釋憲\n\n8\n00:02:55,982 --> 00:03:20,375\n那麼民進黨的立法院黨團基本上也是配合著現在賴清德政府的這樣的一個做法配合行政院的做法只要是在總統公佈法律之後他們也會立刻提起釋憲這就像是立法院民進黨立法院黨團總召柯建民所說的這已經是一種標配那對於目前已經提起的釋憲的法案\n\n9\n00:03:21,255 --> 00:03:42,394\n和預算案已經有六件所以在這樣的情況之下本席想要請教蕭教授就是您認為將釋憲作為一個政治對抗手段將大法官扯入政治紛爭之中的這種做法是否正確謝謝委員長首先呢這個復議跟提起憲法訴訟是我們\n\n10\n00:03:46,076 --> 00:03:59,352\n憲法上兩種不同的設計那復議只有在行政院跟立法院之間事件我想人民各機關都可以提起那有關於這個復議經過了多次的改變尤其是後來刪除這個\n\n11\n00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:20,033\n行政院長要辭職這個選項之後其實提起復議大概就是比較屬於政治上的一種手段但是提起復議的要件必須是行政院認為自然難行且經總統核可換句話就是說提起復議要總統跟行政院同意才可以\n\n12\n00:04:20,697 --> 00:04:36,829\n那他們的標準不是這個法律違憲是他認為自愛難行那至於是不是自愛難行這個有時候就不是那麼樣的客觀可以明確的去判斷那至於呢這個提起憲法訴訟因為他有非常明確的規定\n\n13\n00:04:38,359 --> 00:05:02,779\n尤其是他處理的基本上是憲法上的問題所以我個人認為兩個性質不一樣這邊謝謝您因為我還有其他問題要問所以剛剛蕭教授也提到重點確實現在把婦役跟釋憲可能就當成是一種政治對抗的手段那麼本席在這邊要進一步請教大法官要如何去防止\n\n14\n00:05:04,121 --> 00:05:11,461\n濫刑釋憲的行為事實上就是很多我們剛剛講到受理申請釋憲案的要件\n\n15\n00:05:13,888 --> 00:05:38,887\n要行使职权这是一个重要的要件可是呢事实上我们看到就是在最近的这一年里面不管是行政院或是立法委员他们在提起申请释宪的时候到底他们是不是真的已经有依法去行使那个职权可能有的时候根本还没有开始法案才刚刚通过连实施都没有实施他就立刻申请释宪了\n\n16\n00:05:39,888 --> 00:06:03,898\n而且更誇張的是大法官還受理了所以就是說從憲法法庭的角度我們明明看到了現在存在這樣的一個憲政的問題就是政府機關會用拿這個釋憲當成一個他們政治對抗的手段但是我們絕對不希望看到憲法法庭變成是一個政治惡鬥的底下的一個工具\n\n17\n00:06:04,858 --> 00:06:09,522\n首先呢就有關於這個立法院提起這個釋憲的時候以前在大審法的時候規定的比較不清楚那大法官在解釋的時候曾經提出\n\n18\n00:06:31,892 --> 00:06:36,581\n必須是提出事先的立法委員在立法過程中必須反對\n\n19\n00:06:37,998 --> 00:07:06,165\n那現在的憲法訴訟法也採取這樣的方式所以假設你在制定法律的時候沒有反對你就不能提釋憲我想這是一個防止濫權的方式也就是說在立法的時候我什麼都不講反正到時候再提釋憲我想這是一個防止的方式那第二個防止大法官介入這個濫訴當然我們大法官在涉及到中華民國領土判委的時候就提出一個概念就是政治問題政治問題我們不介入\n\n20\n00:07:08,078 --> 00:07:28,035\n只是當時候大法官並沒有很清楚的告訴我們哪一個是政治問題當然在國外也有一些標準可以提供我們做參考不過我覺得只要是純粹的政治問題基本上大法官應該也不介入那這樣的話透過這兩個方式可以減少一些不必要的憲法訴訟\n\n21\n00:07:29,998 --> 00:07:58,093\n那當然因為每一個訴訟類型都有我想這個部分我要再進一步請教您因為您剛剛講到有關於少數立委提起申請釋憲的問題我們也最近有看到其實大法官在受理立法委員申請釋憲案件的標準不斷的浮動尤其是在今年五月民進黨委員申請憲法訴訟的這個案子然後大法官在人數不足的情況之下還特別開了一個說明會我想任憑誰都可以看得出來\n\n22\n00:07:58,693 --> 00:08:18,633\n这大法官明显的新政为什么这么说呢因为过去我们认为说这个少数立委提起这个视线他必须是从早期这个可能一开始是必须要投下反对票而且呢还要等到他是不是有之后曾经有在提出修法案修法案为国\n\n23\n00:08:18,993 --> 00:08:45,963\n那么才符合申请事宪的要件那么到后来不断的演进尤其是到这个去年的国会改革法案的这个大法官受理事宪案以及到最近其他召开的这个说明会可以看出来他这个立法委员的反对从过去我们认为你至少要是在三读程序一定要表示反对现在已经可以扩大到说二读程序他就算是没有反对或三读程序没有明显的反对也可以说你们明明知道我们在这边抗议\n\n24\n00:08:46,243 --> 00:09:04,829\n你們就知道說我是在反對雖然我沒有投下那個反對票也沒有舉手反對但是大法官依此就可以去認定說他就是反對所以可以同意受理民進黨黨團的這個申請釋憲的這樣的一個案子這是不是已經過於胡亂了\n\n25\n00:09:07,046 --> 00:09:29,808\n未来我估计会不会连在委员会开会审议法案表达不同的意见他只要有表达不同的意见就已经符合了所谓的少数立委在表达审查案的时候有投下反对票可以把这投下反对票可以无限的扩张如果说您未来担任大法官您会能够接受像这样子的一个标准吗\n\n26\n00:09:30,310 --> 00:09:59,209\n所謂的反對當然是一個相對啦不是絕對的不確定法律概念那不確定法律概念解釋原則上是司法機關但是呢如果立法機關可以透過立法技術讓這個不確定法律概念更加明確的話我覺得是一個解決方法就是說比如說我們在憲法訴訟法裡面就規定什麼叫做反對你必須做過什麼樣的事情才叫反對那在還沒有立法明確規定定義之前那這個不確定法律概念解釋當然是司法機關的職權\n\n27\n00:10:00,590 --> 00:10:21,241\n司法機關的職權它的解釋當然除了要用一般解釋方法之外我覺得它要有連貫性要一貫性這是我的想法至於是要廣義的採取或是狹義的採取我想每一個人的想法不一樣但是我的想法很簡單要一貫謝謝謝謝蕭教授的建議您剛的建議我已經記起來了\n\n28\n00:10:25,703 --> 00:10:43,141\n我之后我就会提这个立法院职权行使法的修法将少数立法委员反对的时候才能提起事先反对把它定义清楚那么我想基本上就是我们知道每一部法律的制定和修正理论上都会存在的少数立委不赞成的情形但是呢我们\n\n29\n00:10:43,621 --> 00:10:57,911\n如果把每部法律因為只要有少數立委可能在不同的場合裡面只要表示反對意見就可以去申請釋憲的話那麼未來司法院就可能會憲法法庭就可能會成為立法院的諮詢機關那麼我們認為說這樣子其實也妨礙了大法官這個要\n\n30\n00:11:02,814 --> 00:11:32,201\n办更重要的事情要去做更重要解释的一个空间好那接下来我要谈的就是说因为刚前面的委员们有提到有关于这次的宪法诉讼法的修法那么将宪法法庭的平决门槛还有做成违宪的判决的门槛都提高那么您认为这是不是属于立法形成自由有关于最高司法机关的程序的权利那目前来讲全世界分成两个\n\n31\n00:11:32,796 --> 00:11:52,524\n一個是給最高司法機關的程序自主權但是我們國家從大法官會議法大審法一直到憲法訴訟法憲法訴訟的進行我們的程序基本上我們國家的慣例是由立法委員制定程序法規來依循\n\n32\n00:11:53,484 --> 00:12:16,276\n好谢谢所以也就是说基本上立法院是有这样的一个立法形成的空间我们可以针对随着时代的不同这个情势的一个改变我们可以有权利去修改这个宪法法庭的这个评议门槛还有就是开会的人数那么这部分的话我认为说其实现在\n\n33\n00:12:18,036 --> 00:12:40,886\n包含司法院以及這個立法小數民進黨立法委員認為說這是有違憲那本行是不贊同這樣的看法我也希望說大法官他現在已經受理這個案子雖然說我認為說他根本不應該受理但是如果說他真的是受理這個案子的並且進行審議的話那麼我認為說他基本上應該還是要考慮到有關於立法形成的\n\n34\n00:12:42,287 --> 00:13:00,856\n呃呃這個空間要給立法者有更多的可以去制定修法的這樣的一個呃一個一個裁量的一個權利啊好那麼接下來本席好再請教就是說呃因為在去年憲法法庭連續做了兩件引起社會輿論嘩然的判決一個就是反廢死一一三\n\n35\n00:13:01,576 --> 00:13:04,799\n我剛聽到好像有些地方你不是很贊同對就是我要先講哪一個\n\n36\n00:13:23,087 --> 00:13:50,976\n沒關係這樣好了因為我時間有限我還是直接就詢問就是說其實本席特別在意的就是有關於國會改革法案當時大法官其實在憲判自9號判決裡面其實做了對於我們的立法院職權實施法的修法多數條文都宣告是違憲的那麼在這邊我想請問你你是否支持大法官的意見認為立法院是不能夠處罰說謊的政府官員\n\n37\n00:13:51,676 --> 00:14:16,156\n那對於這些為虛偽不實陳述或無故缺席政府官員既不能苛語刑罰也不能夠處罰更不能移送監察院您是否贊成這樣的論調有關於這個藐視國會的問題因為這個是一個全世界大部分都有的制度那當然我們看的主要都是美國不過藐視國會在美國是用刑事制裁這個我不是很贊成\n\n38\n00:14:17,779 --> 00:14:34,563\n是,本期在這邊提醒你,不僅是美國、日本、法國、德國都有苛處刑罰因為我剛有聽到您在詢問賴瑞龍委員的回答您基本上是不認為台灣有必要去苛處秒死無悔罪的刑事責任那對於審訊處罰呢?\n\n39\n00:14:38,024 --> 00:14:53,228\n法環我們當時在立法院執權刑事法修法的時候我們其實對於虛偽陳述或無故缺席等等這些藐視國會的公務員我們有科除兩萬元以下兩萬元以上的二十萬以內的這個法環您認為這樣的處罰也不合理嗎在585號解釋裡面對於這個\n\n40\n00:14:58,368 --> 00:15:12,126\n責任已經有一些討論了我個人是認為說行事責任我覺得他是最有手段以目前台灣的情形比較不適合然後行政責任或者內部的責任這個我贊成\n\n41\n00:15:12,887 --> 00:15:22,497\n但是對象應該只限於公務員一般人民我現在只是針對政府官員所以你同不同意可以處罰可以給予行政罰款對但是就是說處罰的構成要件一定要明確\n\n42\n00:15:29,384 --> 00:15:53,296\n是我不知道就是說蕭教授你有沒有看過我們的仔細看過我們的這個立法院職權刑事法的修法我們所有的修法的條文內容都跟現行在散落在各個不同行政法規裡面處罰虛偽陳述的條文的過程要件是一模一樣的我們並沒有特別增加也沒有就是特別的模糊\n\n43\n00:15:54,456 --> 00:16:10,194\n那麼所以就這個部分來說的話本席基本上認為說未來我們還是要朝向要再去制定藐視國會的處罰這個方向去做那麼在這裡我想請教就是如果說依照大法官現在的解釋到底我們\n\n44\n00:16:12,535 --> 00:16:33,443\n從權力分立制衡的角度您認為立法院還有什麼樣的制衡工具可以去防止或者是去針對官員說謊拒不提供資料等等這些情況我們有什麼樣的一個制衡反制的措施因為我們國家目前還是無權分立的狀態對於政府官員來講\n\n45\n00:16:40,950 --> 00:17:04,511\n移送監察院這個當然是一條道路我們不管現在監察院運作如何但是大法官也說立法院無權移送監察院當然其實大法官所做的這個解釋也很奇怪其實任何一個人都可以把這個案子移送監察院只是我們把它明文寫在裡面但大法官也認為是不行移送公務員最好的方式就是違法跟失職以前的規定\n\n46\n00:17:05,552 --> 00:17:24,610\n那現在我覺得比較麻煩的就是說雖然剛剛委員講過我們的那個很多條文都是在其他的法律裡面這樣把它搬過來的但是我可能要提醒一下就是說因為在立法院裡面的質詢回答他比較充滿了比較多的政治語言\n\n47\n00:17:25,404 --> 00:17:44,689\n那政治語言在大法官的解釋裡面他是相對比較衝向的我們現在講的虛偽不實無故缺席拒不提供資料這些都是非常清楚的事實而且如果說立法院正要處罰我們還經過立法院用會的同意坦白說那個門檻非常高啊比行政機關\n\n48\n00:17:45,629 --> 00:18:01,807\n这个认为哪个人民他这个像我们最近报税如果有报税不实立刻就处罚了我们在立法院我们要去处罚一个政府官员有类似像这样违法事实的行为门槛非常高程序也很难过的就很难会通过的\n\n49\n00:18:02,287 --> 00:18:30,843\n对所以呢这个部分我想这是完全不是政治语言这就是一个很清楚的事实那么我想因为您刚刚讲的意见我大概也都知道了您大概也不反对就是说可以做行政处罚但是就是希望能够这个在事实证据更清楚的情况之下然后才能够做这样处罚那么我刚刚已经说了假设我们立法院还要继续去推动处罚藐视国会的这样子一个条文您认为\n\n50\n00:18:32,731 --> 00:18:58,092\n會違憲嗎您曾經在二十多年前寫過一篇大作就是法規違憲解釋的拘束力裡面有特別有提到有關於大法官解釋的拘束力是否會拘束大法官本身還有立法機關您的看法呢如果說我們今天立法委員立法院經過多數我們認為重要的法案\n\n51\n00:18:59,246 --> 00:19:06,483\n這是民眾民意所支持的法案我們重新再制定相同的法規或是類似的法規這有違憲嗎\n\n52\n00:19:08,928 --> 00:19:29,569\n首先就是有關於有沒有拘束大法官我想大法官的制度裡面本來就可以做補充解釋而且我們大法官制度裡面本來就有後面的憲法判決推翻前面大法官的這個例子就是那個強制道歉的案子所以拘束力是有但是原則上是相對的只要你的後面的理由是正確的\n\n53\n00:19:30,519 --> 00:19:42,612\n至於大法官的解釋或是憲法法庭的解釋有沒有拘束後來的立法者這個要看情形如果一模一樣的那這個當然有拘束力\n\n54\n00:19:43,240 --> 00:20:05,126\n如果已經做了調整跟原來的法規沒有一致性或是就是他已經有改變了特殊的狀況那當然就是可以重新實現這個沒有問題所以我想就是因為我非常贊成您在當時這個大法官解釋效力的這個文章裡面所提到的其實我們的立法者\n\n55\n00:20:05,626 --> 00:20:23,538\n他也要與時俱進能夠跟民意做就是能夠回應民意的這個需求來制定合理的這個法律的條文那麼本來立法就有創造補充修正的這樣的一個機制所以呢立法\n\n56\n00:20:24,898 --> 00:20:46,484\n所以立法者基本上如果說重新制定相同或者是類似的內容在沒有人提出這個申請釋憲違憲的情況之前它當然還是有效的是吧就是我說的應該沒有錯就算我們制定了相同的條文內容制定了類似的條文內容但是在沒有人提起釋憲之前被憲法法庭確保違憲這應該不夠重違憲\n\n57\n00:21:00,696 --> 00:21:06,199\n好謝謝謝謝翁小林委員詢問也謝謝被提名人蕭教授的說明\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n149\t10167\t我們接下來請登記第四號第四位翁曉琳委員請詢問陳金威委員請準備\n30431\t36356\t院長好 這邊先有請蕭教授麻煩再請被提名人蕭教授說明\n43015\t65971\t好委員好是蕭貝廷您人好我在這邊其實還是習慣尊稱您為蕭老師蕭教授所以我想待會質詢的時候呢我就以蕭教授來這個稱會然後來跟您進行一些討論我想就是在這次這個蕭老師您被提名為大法官的這個候選人\n66471\t93931\t那事實上以我個人的觀點因為蕭老師您在我們學界也是得高望重而且非常認真然後學有專精的學者所以我其實是很高興看到您能夠被提名為大法官候選人不過因為現在我們的憲政也面臨到一些比較困難的處境尤其是憲政爭議不斷所以在這邊我待會也會請教您幾個\n95653\t123320\t與市縣有關的一些問題我們知道其實從賴清德總統上任以來目前他執政一年可是行政院他所提起的復議的次數是創下有史以來的記錄我不知道您曉不曉得我們從我們行縣以來一直到113年賴清德總統上任之前我們曾經有過多少次的行政院所提起的復議案\n125101\t150398\t具體的數字我不知道但是很少因為以前的規定還有包括行政院長要辭職所以提出復議案的風險很大所以提出的數量應該是個位數吧我這邊告訴您就是從行政院一直到113年的2月之前我們總共只有13次的復議案但是從賴清德總統他去年5月就職之後到現在\n151178\t174721\t行政院已經提起了七次的復議而且是屢敗屢戰但是即便如此我們預期他還會繼續對他們不合意不滿意的法案來提起復議那麼現在這個行政院他提起復議失敗之後他並沒有很認分的就說是依法去行政而是他很快就會提起釋憲\n175982\t200375\t那麼民進黨的立法院黨團基本上也是配合著現在賴清德政府的這樣的一個做法配合行政院的做法只要是在總統公佈法律之後他們也會立刻提起釋憲這就像是立法院民進黨立法院黨團總召柯建民所說的這已經是一種標配那對於目前已經提起的釋憲的法案\n201255\t222394\t和預算案已經有六件所以在這樣的情況之下本席想要請教蕭教授就是您認為將釋憲作為一個政治對抗手段將大法官扯入政治紛爭之中的這種做法是否正確謝謝委員長首先呢這個復議跟提起憲法訴訟是我們\n226076\t239352\t憲法上兩種不同的設計那復議只有在行政院跟立法院之間事件我想人民各機關都可以提起那有關於這個復議經過了多次的改變尤其是後來刪除這個\n241400\t260033\t行政院長要辭職這個選項之後其實提起復議大概就是比較屬於政治上的一種手段但是提起復議的要件必須是行政院認為自然難行且經總統核可換句話就是說提起復議要總統跟行政院同意才可以\n260697\t276829\t那他們的標準不是這個法律違憲是他認為自愛難行那至於是不是自愛難行這個有時候就不是那麼樣的客觀可以明確的去判斷那至於呢這個提起憲法訴訟因為他有非常明確的規定\n278359\t302779\t尤其是他處理的基本上是憲法上的問題所以我個人認為兩個性質不一樣這邊謝謝您因為我還有其他問題要問所以剛剛蕭教授也提到重點確實現在把婦役跟釋憲可能就當成是一種政治對抗的手段那麼本席在這邊要進一步請教大法官要如何去防止\n304121\t311461\t濫刑釋憲的行為事實上就是很多我們剛剛講到受理申請釋憲案的要件\n313888\t338887\t要行使职权这是一个重要的要件可是呢事实上我们看到就是在最近的这一年里面不管是行政院或是立法委员他们在提起申请释宪的时候到底他们是不是真的已经有依法去行使那个职权可能有的时候根本还没有开始法案才刚刚通过连实施都没有实施他就立刻申请释宪了\n339888\t363898\t而且更誇張的是大法官還受理了所以就是說從憲法法庭的角度我們明明看到了現在存在這樣的一個憲政的問題就是政府機關會用拿這個釋憲當成一個他們政治對抗的手段但是我們絕對不希望看到憲法法庭變成是一個政治惡鬥的底下的一個工具\n364858\t369522\t首先呢就有關於這個立法院提起這個釋憲的時候以前在大審法的時候規定的比較不清楚那大法官在解釋的時候曾經提出\n391892\t396581\t必須是提出事先的立法委員在立法過程中必須反對\n397998\t426165\t那現在的憲法訴訟法也採取這樣的方式所以假設你在制定法律的時候沒有反對你就不能提釋憲我想這是一個防止濫權的方式也就是說在立法的時候我什麼都不講反正到時候再提釋憲我想這是一個防止的方式那第二個防止大法官介入這個濫訴當然我們大法官在涉及到中華民國領土判委的時候就提出一個概念就是政治問題政治問題我們不介入\n428078\t448035\t只是當時候大法官並沒有很清楚的告訴我們哪一個是政治問題當然在國外也有一些標準可以提供我們做參考不過我覺得只要是純粹的政治問題基本上大法官應該也不介入那這樣的話透過這兩個方式可以減少一些不必要的憲法訴訟\n449998\t478093\t那當然因為每一個訴訟類型都有我想這個部分我要再進一步請教您因為您剛剛講到有關於少數立委提起申請釋憲的問題我們也最近有看到其實大法官在受理立法委員申請釋憲案件的標準不斷的浮動尤其是在今年五月民進黨委員申請憲法訴訟的這個案子然後大法官在人數不足的情況之下還特別開了一個說明會我想任憑誰都可以看得出來\n478693\t498633\t这大法官明显的新政为什么这么说呢因为过去我们认为说这个少数立委提起这个视线他必须是从早期这个可能一开始是必须要投下反对票而且呢还要等到他是不是有之后曾经有在提出修法案修法案为国\n498993\t525963\t那么才符合申请事宪的要件那么到后来不断的演进尤其是到这个去年的国会改革法案的这个大法官受理事宪案以及到最近其他召开的这个说明会可以看出来他这个立法委员的反对从过去我们认为你至少要是在三读程序一定要表示反对现在已经可以扩大到说二读程序他就算是没有反对或三读程序没有明显的反对也可以说你们明明知道我们在这边抗议\n526243\t544829\t你們就知道說我是在反對雖然我沒有投下那個反對票也沒有舉手反對但是大法官依此就可以去認定說他就是反對所以可以同意受理民進黨黨團的這個申請釋憲的這樣的一個案子這是不是已經過於胡亂了\n547046\t569808\t未来我估计会不会连在委员会开会审议法案表达不同的意见他只要有表达不同的意见就已经符合了所谓的少数立委在表达审查案的时候有投下反对票可以把这投下反对票可以无限的扩张如果说您未来担任大法官您会能够接受像这样子的一个标准吗\n570310\t599209\t所謂的反對當然是一個相對啦不是絕對的不確定法律概念那不確定法律概念解釋原則上是司法機關但是呢如果立法機關可以透過立法技術讓這個不確定法律概念更加明確的話我覺得是一個解決方法就是說比如說我們在憲法訴訟法裡面就規定什麼叫做反對你必須做過什麼樣的事情才叫反對那在還沒有立法明確規定定義之前那這個不確定法律概念解釋當然是司法機關的職權\n600590\t621241\t司法機關的職權它的解釋當然除了要用一般解釋方法之外我覺得它要有連貫性要一貫性這是我的想法至於是要廣義的採取或是狹義的採取我想每一個人的想法不一樣但是我的想法很簡單要一貫謝謝謝謝蕭教授的建議您剛的建議我已經記起來了\n625703\t643141\t我之后我就会提这个立法院职权行使法的修法将少数立法委员反对的时候才能提起事先反对把它定义清楚那么我想基本上就是我们知道每一部法律的制定和修正理论上都会存在的少数立委不赞成的情形但是呢我们\n643621\t657911\t如果把每部法律因為只要有少數立委可能在不同的場合裡面只要表示反對意見就可以去申請釋憲的話那麼未來司法院就可能會憲法法庭就可能會成為立法院的諮詢機關那麼我們認為說這樣子其實也妨礙了大法官這個要\n662814\t692201\t办更重要的事情要去做更重要解释的一个空间好那接下来我要谈的就是说因为刚前面的委员们有提到有关于这次的宪法诉讼法的修法那么将宪法法庭的平决门槛还有做成违宪的判决的门槛都提高那么您认为这是不是属于立法形成自由有关于最高司法机关的程序的权利那目前来讲全世界分成两个\n692796\t712524\t一個是給最高司法機關的程序自主權但是我們國家從大法官會議法大審法一直到憲法訴訟法憲法訴訟的進行我們的程序基本上我們國家的慣例是由立法委員制定程序法規來依循\n713484\t736276\t好谢谢所以也就是说基本上立法院是有这样的一个立法形成的空间我们可以针对随着时代的不同这个情势的一个改变我们可以有权利去修改这个宪法法庭的这个评议门槛还有就是开会的人数那么这部分的话我认为说其实现在\n738036\t760886\t包含司法院以及這個立法小數民進黨立法委員認為說這是有違憲那本行是不贊同這樣的看法我也希望說大法官他現在已經受理這個案子雖然說我認為說他根本不應該受理但是如果說他真的是受理這個案子的並且進行審議的話那麼我認為說他基本上應該還是要考慮到有關於立法形成的\n762287\t780856\t呃呃這個空間要給立法者有更多的可以去制定修法的這樣的一個呃一個一個裁量的一個權利啊好那麼接下來本席好再請教就是說呃因為在去年憲法法庭連續做了兩件引起社會輿論嘩然的判決一個就是反廢死一一三\n781576\t784799\t我剛聽到好像有些地方你不是很贊同對 就是我要先講哪一個\n803087\t830976\t沒關係這樣好了因為我時間有限我還是直接就詢問就是說其實本席特別在意的就是有關於國會改革法案當時大法官其實在憲判自9號判決裡面其實做了對於我們的立法院職權實施法的修法多數條文都宣告是違憲的那麼在這邊我想請問你你是否支持大法官的意見認為立法院是不能夠處罰說謊的政府官員\n831676\t856156\t那對於這些為虛偽不實陳述或無故缺席政府官員既不能苛語刑罰也不能夠處罰更不能移送監察院您是否贊成這樣的論調有關於這個藐視國會的問題因為這個是一個全世界大部分都有的制度那當然我們看的主要都是美國不過藐視國會在美國是用刑事制裁這個我不是很贊成\n857779\t874563\t是,本期在這邊提醒你,不僅是美國、日本、法國、德國都有苛處刑罰因為我剛有聽到您在詢問賴瑞龍委員的回答您基本上是不認為台灣有必要去苛處秒死無悔罪的刑事責任那對於審訊處罰呢?\n878024\t893228\t法環我們當時在立法院執權刑事法修法的時候我們其實對於虛偽陳述或無故缺席等等這些藐視國會的公務員我們有科除兩萬元以下兩萬元以上的二十萬以內的這個法環您認為這樣的處罰也不合理嗎在585號解釋裡面對於這個\n898368\t912126\t責任已經有一些討論了我個人是認為說行事責任我覺得他是最有手段以目前台灣的情形比較不適合然後行政責任或者內部的責任這個我贊成\n912887\t922497\t但是對象應該只限於公務員一般人民我現在只是針對政府官員所以你同不同意可以處罰可以給予行政罰款對 但是就是說處罰的構成要件一定要明確\n929384\t953296\t是我不知道就是說蕭教授你有沒有看過我們的仔細看過我們的這個立法院職權刑事法的修法我們所有的修法的條文內容都跟現行在散落在各個不同行政法規裡面處罰虛偽陳述的條文的過程要件是一模一樣的我們並沒有特別增加也沒有就是特別的模糊\n954456\t970194\t那麼所以就這個部分來說的話本席基本上認為說未來我們還是要朝向要再去制定藐視國會的處罰這個方向去做那麼在這裡我想請教就是如果說依照大法官現在的解釋到底我們\n972535\t993443\t從權力分立制衡的角度您認為立法院還有什麼樣的制衡工具可以去防止或者是去針對官員說謊拒不提供資料等等這些情況我們有什麼樣的一個制衡反制的措施因為我們國家目前還是無權分立的狀態對於政府官員來講\n1000950\t1024511\t移送監察院這個當然是一條道路我們不管現在監察院運作如何但是大法官也說立法院無權移送監察院當然其實大法官所做的這個解釋也很奇怪其實任何一個人都可以把這個案子移送監察院只是我們把它明文寫在裡面但大法官也認為是不行移送公務員最好的方式就是違法跟失職以前的規定\n1025552\t1044610\t那現在我覺得比較麻煩的就是說雖然剛剛委員講過我們的那個很多條文都是在其他的法律裡面這樣把它搬過來的但是我可能要提醒一下就是說因為在立法院裡面的質詢回答他比較充滿了比較多的政治語言\n1045404\t1064689\t那政治語言在大法官的解釋裡面他是相對比較衝向的我們現在講的虛偽不實無故缺席拒不提供資料這些都是非常清楚的事實而且如果說立法院正要處罰我們還經過立法院用會的同意坦白說那個門檻非常高啊比行政機關\n1065629\t1081807\t这个认为哪个人民他这个像我们最近报税如果有报税不实立刻就处罚了我们在立法院我们要去处罚一个政府官员有类似像这样违法事实的行为门槛非常高程序也很难过的就很难会通过的\n1082287\t1110843\t对所以呢这个部分我想这是完全不是政治语言这就是一个很清楚的事实那么我想因为您刚刚讲的意见我大概也都知道了您大概也不反对就是说可以做行政处罚但是就是希望能够这个在事实证据更清楚的情况之下然后才能够做这样处罚那么我刚刚已经说了假设我们立法院还要继续去推动处罚藐视国会的这样子一个条文您认为\n1112731\t1138092\t會違憲嗎您曾經在二十多年前寫過一篇大作就是法規違憲解釋的拘束力裡面有特別有提到有關於大法官解釋的拘束力是否會拘束大法官本身還有立法機關您的看法呢如果說我們今天立法委員立法院經過多數我們認為重要的法案\n1139246\t1146483\t這是民眾民意所支持的法案我們重新再制定相同的法規或是類似的法規這有違憲嗎\n1148928\t1169569\t首先就是有關於有沒有拘束大法官我想大法官的制度裡面本來就可以做補充解釋而且我們大法官制度裡面本來就有後面的憲法判決推翻前面大法官的這個例子就是那個強制道歉的案子所以拘束力是有但是原則上是相對的只要你的後面的理由是正確的\n1170519\t1182612\t至於大法官的解釋或是憲法法庭的解釋有沒有拘束後來的立法者這個要看情形如果一模一樣的那這個當然有拘束力\n1183240\t1205126\t如果已經做了調整跟原來的法規沒有一致性或是就是他已經有改變了特殊的狀況那當然就是可以重新實現這個沒有問題所以我想就是因為我非常贊成您在當時這個大法官解釋效力的這個文章裡面所提到的其實我們的立法者\n1205626\t1223538\t他也要與時俱進能夠跟民意做就是能夠回應民意的這個需求來制定合理的這個法律的條文那麼本來立法就有創造補充修正的這樣的一個機制所以呢立法\n1224898\t1246484\t所以立法者基本上如果說重新制定相同或者是類似的內容在沒有人提出這個申請釋憲違憲的情況之前它當然還是有效的 是吧就是我說的應該沒有錯就算我們制定了相同的條文內容制定了類似的條文內容但是在沒有人提起釋憲之前被憲法法庭確保違憲這應該不夠重違憲\n1260696\t1266199\t好謝謝謝謝翁小林委員詢問也謝謝被提名人蕭教授的說明\n","txt":"我們接下來請登記第四號第四位翁曉琳委員請詢問陳金威委員請準備\n院長好 這邊先有請蕭教授麻煩再請被提名人蕭教授說明\n好委員好是蕭貝廷您人好我在這邊其實還是習慣尊稱您為蕭老師蕭教授所以我想待會質詢的時候呢我就以蕭教授來這個稱會然後來跟您進行一些討論我想就是在這次這個蕭老師您被提名為大法官的這個候選人\n那事實上以我個人的觀點因為蕭老師您在我們學界也是得高望重而且非常認真然後學有專精的學者所以我其實是很高興看到您能夠被提名為大法官候選人不過因為現在我們的憲政也面臨到一些比較困難的處境尤其是憲政爭議不斷所以在這邊我待會也會請教您幾個\n與市縣有關的一些問題我們知道其實從賴清德總統上任以來目前他執政一年可是行政院他所提起的復議的次數是創下有史以來的記錄我不知道您曉不曉得我們從我們行縣以來一直到113年賴清德總統上任之前我們曾經有過多少次的行政院所提起的復議案\n具體的數字我不知道但是很少因為以前的規定還有包括行政院長要辭職所以提出復議案的風險很大所以提出的數量應該是個位數吧我這邊告訴您就是從行政院一直到113年的2月之前我們總共只有13次的復議案但是從賴清德總統他去年5月就職之後到現在\n行政院已經提起了七次的復議而且是屢敗屢戰但是即便如此我們預期他還會繼續對他們不合意不滿意的法案來提起復議那麼現在這個行政院他提起復議失敗之後他並沒有很認分的就說是依法去行政而是他很快就會提起釋憲\n那麼民進黨的立法院黨團基本上也是配合著現在賴清德政府的這樣的一個做法配合行政院的做法只要是在總統公佈法律之後他們也會立刻提起釋憲這就像是立法院民進黨立法院黨團總召柯建民所說的這已經是一種標配那對於目前已經提起的釋憲的法案\n和預算案已經有六件所以在這樣的情況之下本席想要請教蕭教授就是您認為將釋憲作為一個政治對抗手段將大法官扯入政治紛爭之中的這種做法是否正確謝謝委員長首先呢這個復議跟提起憲法訴訟是我們\n憲法上兩種不同的設計那復議只有在行政院跟立法院之間事件我想人民各機關都可以提起那有關於這個復議經過了多次的改變尤其是後來刪除這個\n行政院長要辭職這個選項之後其實提起復議大概就是比較屬於政治上的一種手段但是提起復議的要件必須是行政院認為自然難行且經總統核可換句話就是說提起復議要總統跟行政院同意才可以\n那他們的標準不是這個法律違憲是他認為自愛難行那至於是不是自愛難行這個有時候就不是那麼樣的客觀可以明確的去判斷那至於呢這個提起憲法訴訟因為他有非常明確的規定\n尤其是他處理的基本上是憲法上的問題所以我個人認為兩個性質不一樣這邊謝謝您因為我還有其他問題要問所以剛剛蕭教授也提到重點確實現在把婦役跟釋憲可能就當成是一種政治對抗的手段那麼本席在這邊要進一步請教大法官要如何去防止\n濫刑釋憲的行為事實上就是很多我們剛剛講到受理申請釋憲案的要件\n要行使职权这是一个重要的要件可是呢事实上我们看到就是在最近的这一年里面不管是行政院或是立法委员他们在提起申请释宪的时候到底他们是不是真的已经有依法去行使那个职权可能有的时候根本还没有开始法案才刚刚通过连实施都没有实施他就立刻申请释宪了\n而且更誇張的是大法官還受理了所以就是說從憲法法庭的角度我們明明看到了現在存在這樣的一個憲政的問題就是政府機關會用拿這個釋憲當成一個他們政治對抗的手段但是我們絕對不希望看到憲法法庭變成是一個政治惡鬥的底下的一個工具\n首先呢就有關於這個立法院提起這個釋憲的時候以前在大審法的時候規定的比較不清楚那大法官在解釋的時候曾經提出\n必須是提出事先的立法委員在立法過程中必須反對\n那現在的憲法訴訟法也採取這樣的方式所以假設你在制定法律的時候沒有反對你就不能提釋憲我想這是一個防止濫權的方式也就是說在立法的時候我什麼都不講反正到時候再提釋憲我想這是一個防止的方式那第二個防止大法官介入這個濫訴當然我們大法官在涉及到中華民國領土判委的時候就提出一個概念就是政治問題政治問題我們不介入\n只是當時候大法官並沒有很清楚的告訴我們哪一個是政治問題當然在國外也有一些標準可以提供我們做參考不過我覺得只要是純粹的政治問題基本上大法官應該也不介入那這樣的話透過這兩個方式可以減少一些不必要的憲法訴訟\n那當然因為每一個訴訟類型都有我想這個部分我要再進一步請教您因為您剛剛講到有關於少數立委提起申請釋憲的問題我們也最近有看到其實大法官在受理立法委員申請釋憲案件的標準不斷的浮動尤其是在今年五月民進黨委員申請憲法訴訟的這個案子然後大法官在人數不足的情況之下還特別開了一個說明會我想任憑誰都可以看得出來\n这大法官明显的新政为什么这么说呢因为过去我们认为说这个少数立委提起这个视线他必须是从早期这个可能一开始是必须要投下反对票而且呢还要等到他是不是有之后曾经有在提出修法案修法案为国\n那么才符合申请事宪的要件那么到后来不断的演进尤其是到这个去年的国会改革法案的这个大法官受理事宪案以及到最近其他召开的这个说明会可以看出来他这个立法委员的反对从过去我们认为你至少要是在三读程序一定要表示反对现在已经可以扩大到说二读程序他就算是没有反对或三读程序没有明显的反对也可以说你们明明知道我们在这边抗议\n你們就知道說我是在反對雖然我沒有投下那個反對票也沒有舉手反對但是大法官依此就可以去認定說他就是反對所以可以同意受理民進黨黨團的這個申請釋憲的這樣的一個案子這是不是已經過於胡亂了\n未来我估计会不会连在委员会开会审议法案表达不同的意见他只要有表达不同的意见就已经符合了所谓的少数立委在表达审查案的时候有投下反对票可以把这投下反对票可以无限的扩张如果说您未来担任大法官您会能够接受像这样子的一个标准吗\n所謂的反對當然是一個相對啦不是絕對的不確定法律概念那不確定法律概念解釋原則上是司法機關但是呢如果立法機關可以透過立法技術讓這個不確定法律概念更加明確的話我覺得是一個解決方法就是說比如說我們在憲法訴訟法裡面就規定什麼叫做反對你必須做過什麼樣的事情才叫反對那在還沒有立法明確規定定義之前那這個不確定法律概念解釋當然是司法機關的職權\n司法機關的職權它的解釋當然除了要用一般解釋方法之外我覺得它要有連貫性要一貫性這是我的想法至於是要廣義的採取或是狹義的採取我想每一個人的想法不一樣但是我的想法很簡單要一貫謝謝謝謝蕭教授的建議您剛的建議我已經記起來了\n我之后我就会提这个立法院职权行使法的修法将少数立法委员反对的时候才能提起事先反对把它定义清楚那么我想基本上就是我们知道每一部法律的制定和修正理论上都会存在的少数立委不赞成的情形但是呢我们\n如果把每部法律因為只要有少數立委可能在不同的場合裡面只要表示反對意見就可以去申請釋憲的話那麼未來司法院就可能會憲法法庭就可能會成為立法院的諮詢機關那麼我們認為說這樣子其實也妨礙了大法官這個要\n办更重要的事情要去做更重要解释的一个空间好那接下来我要谈的就是说因为刚前面的委员们有提到有关于这次的宪法诉讼法的修法那么将宪法法庭的平决门槛还有做成违宪的判决的门槛都提高那么您认为这是不是属于立法形成自由有关于最高司法机关的程序的权利那目前来讲全世界分成两个\n一個是給最高司法機關的程序自主權但是我們國家從大法官會議法大審法一直到憲法訴訟法憲法訴訟的進行我們的程序基本上我們國家的慣例是由立法委員制定程序法規來依循\n好谢谢所以也就是说基本上立法院是有这样的一个立法形成的空间我们可以针对随着时代的不同这个情势的一个改变我们可以有权利去修改这个宪法法庭的这个评议门槛还有就是开会的人数那么这部分的话我认为说其实现在\n包含司法院以及這個立法小數民進黨立法委員認為說這是有違憲那本行是不贊同這樣的看法我也希望說大法官他現在已經受理這個案子雖然說我認為說他根本不應該受理但是如果說他真的是受理這個案子的並且進行審議的話那麼我認為說他基本上應該還是要考慮到有關於立法形成的\n呃呃這個空間要給立法者有更多的可以去制定修法的這樣的一個呃一個一個裁量的一個權利啊好那麼接下來本席好再請教就是說呃因為在去年憲法法庭連續做了兩件引起社會輿論嘩然的判決一個就是反廢死一一三\n我剛聽到好像有些地方你不是很贊同對 就是我要先講哪一個\n沒關係這樣好了因為我時間有限我還是直接就詢問就是說其實本席特別在意的就是有關於國會改革法案當時大法官其實在憲判自9號判決裡面其實做了對於我們的立法院職權實施法的修法多數條文都宣告是違憲的那麼在這邊我想請問你你是否支持大法官的意見認為立法院是不能夠處罰說謊的政府官員\n那對於這些為虛偽不實陳述或無故缺席政府官員既不能苛語刑罰也不能夠處罰更不能移送監察院您是否贊成這樣的論調有關於這個藐視國會的問題因為這個是一個全世界大部分都有的制度那當然我們看的主要都是美國不過藐視國會在美國是用刑事制裁這個我不是很贊成\n是,本期在這邊提醒你,不僅是美國、日本、法國、德國都有苛處刑罰因為我剛有聽到您在詢問賴瑞龍委員的回答您基本上是不認為台灣有必要去苛處秒死無悔罪的刑事責任那對於審訊處罰呢?\n法環我們當時在立法院執權刑事法修法的時候我們其實對於虛偽陳述或無故缺席等等這些藐視國會的公務員我們有科除兩萬元以下兩萬元以上的二十萬以內的這個法環您認為這樣的處罰也不合理嗎在585號解釋裡面對於這個\n責任已經有一些討論了我個人是認為說行事責任我覺得他是最有手段以目前台灣的情形比較不適合然後行政責任或者內部的責任這個我贊成\n但是對象應該只限於公務員一般人民我現在只是針對政府官員所以你同不同意可以處罰可以給予行政罰款對 但是就是說處罰的構成要件一定要明確\n是我不知道就是說蕭教授你有沒有看過我們的仔細看過我們的這個立法院職權刑事法的修法我們所有的修法的條文內容都跟現行在散落在各個不同行政法規裡面處罰虛偽陳述的條文的過程要件是一模一樣的我們並沒有特別增加也沒有就是特別的模糊\n那麼所以就這個部分來說的話本席基本上認為說未來我們還是要朝向要再去制定藐視國會的處罰這個方向去做那麼在這裡我想請教就是如果說依照大法官現在的解釋到底我們\n從權力分立制衡的角度您認為立法院還有什麼樣的制衡工具可以去防止或者是去針對官員說謊拒不提供資料等等這些情況我們有什麼樣的一個制衡反制的措施因為我們國家目前還是無權分立的狀態對於政府官員來講\n移送監察院這個當然是一條道路我們不管現在監察院運作如何但是大法官也說立法院無權移送監察院當然其實大法官所做的這個解釋也很奇怪其實任何一個人都可以把這個案子移送監察院只是我們把它明文寫在裡面但大法官也認為是不行移送公務員最好的方式就是違法跟失職以前的規定\n那現在我覺得比較麻煩的就是說雖然剛剛委員講過我們的那個很多條文都是在其他的法律裡面這樣把它搬過來的但是我可能要提醒一下就是說因為在立法院裡面的質詢回答他比較充滿了比較多的政治語言\n那政治語言在大法官的解釋裡面他是相對比較衝向的我們現在講的虛偽不實無故缺席拒不提供資料這些都是非常清楚的事實而且如果說立法院正要處罰我們還經過立法院用會的同意坦白說那個門檻非常高啊比行政機關\n这个认为哪个人民他这个像我们最近报税如果有报税不实立刻就处罚了我们在立法院我们要去处罚一个政府官员有类似像这样违法事实的行为门槛非常高程序也很难过的就很难会通过的\n对所以呢这个部分我想这是完全不是政治语言这就是一个很清楚的事实那么我想因为您刚刚讲的意见我大概也都知道了您大概也不反对就是说可以做行政处罚但是就是希望能够这个在事实证据更清楚的情况之下然后才能够做这样处罚那么我刚刚已经说了假设我们立法院还要继续去推动处罚藐视国会的这样子一个条文您认为\n會違憲嗎您曾經在二十多年前寫過一篇大作就是法規違憲解釋的拘束力裡面有特別有提到有關於大法官解釋的拘束力是否會拘束大法官本身還有立法機關您的看法呢如果說我們今天立法委員立法院經過多數我們認為重要的法案\n這是民眾民意所支持的法案我們重新再制定相同的法規或是類似的法規這有違憲嗎\n首先就是有關於有沒有拘束大法官我想大法官的制度裡面本來就可以做補充解釋而且我們大法官制度裡面本來就有後面的憲法判決推翻前面大法官的這個例子就是那個強制道歉的案子所以拘束力是有但是原則上是相對的只要你的後面的理由是正確的\n至於大法官的解釋或是憲法法庭的解釋有沒有拘束後來的立法者這個要看情形如果一模一樣的那這個當然有拘束力\n如果已經做了調整跟原來的法規沒有一致性或是就是他已經有改變了特殊的狀況那當然就是可以重新實現這個沒有問題所以我想就是因為我非常贊成您在當時這個大法官解釋效力的這個文章裡面所提到的其實我們的立法者\n他也要與時俱進能夠跟民意做就是能夠回應民意的這個需求來制定合理的這個法律的條文那麼本來立法就有創造補充修正的這樣的一個機制所以呢立法\n所以立法者基本上如果說重新制定相同或者是類似的內容在沒有人提出這個申請釋憲違憲的情況之前它當然還是有效的 是吧就是我說的應該沒有錯就算我們制定了相同的條文內容制定了類似的條文內容但是在沒有人提起釋憲之前被憲法法庭確保違憲這應該不夠重違憲\n好謝謝謝謝翁小林委員詢問也謝謝被提名人蕭教授的說明\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.149 --> 00:10.167\n我們接下來請登記第四號第四位翁曉琳委員請詢問陳金威委員請準備\n\n00:30.431 --> 00:36.356\n院長好這邊先有請蕭教授麻煩再請被提名人蕭教授說明\n\n00:43.015 --> 01:05.971\n好委員好是蕭貝廷您人好我在這邊其實還是習慣尊稱您為蕭老師蕭教授所以我想待會質詢的時候呢我就以蕭教授來這個稱會然後來跟您進行一些討論我想就是在這次這個蕭老師您被提名為大法官的這個候選人\n\n01:06.471 --> 01:33.931\n那事實上以我個人的觀點因為蕭老師您在我們學界也是得高望重而且非常認真然後學有專精的學者所以我其實是很高興看到您能夠被提名為大法官候選人不過因為現在我們的憲政也面臨到一些比較困難的處境尤其是憲政爭議不斷所以在這邊我待會也會請教您幾個\n\n01:35.653 --> 02:03.320\n與市縣有關的一些問題我們知道其實從賴清德總統上任以來目前他執政一年可是行政院他所提起的復議的次數是創下有史以來的記錄我不知道您曉不曉得我們從我們行縣以來一直到113年賴清德總統上任之前我們曾經有過多少次的行政院所提起的復議案\n\n02:05.101 --> 02:30.398\n具體的數字我不知道但是很少因為以前的規定還有包括行政院長要辭職所以提出復議案的風險很大所以提出的數量應該是個位數吧我這邊告訴您就是從行政院一直到113年的2月之前我們總共只有13次的復議案但是從賴清德總統他去年5月就職之後到現在\n\n02:31.178 --> 02:54.721\n行政院已經提起了七次的復議而且是屢敗屢戰但是即便如此我們預期他還會繼續對他們不合意不滿意的法案來提起復議那麼現在這個行政院他提起復議失敗之後他並沒有很認分的就說是依法去行政而是他很快就會提起釋憲\n\n02:55.982 --> 03:20.375\n那麼民進黨的立法院黨團基本上也是配合著現在賴清德政府的這樣的一個做法配合行政院的做法只要是在總統公佈法律之後他們也會立刻提起釋憲這就像是立法院民進黨立法院黨團總召柯建民所說的這已經是一種標配那對於目前已經提起的釋憲的法案\n\n03:21.255 --> 03:42.394\n和預算案已經有六件所以在這樣的情況之下本席想要請教蕭教授就是您認為將釋憲作為一個政治對抗手段將大法官扯入政治紛爭之中的這種做法是否正確謝謝委員長首先呢這個復議跟提起憲法訴訟是我們\n\n03:46.076 --> 03:59.352\n憲法上兩種不同的設計那復議只有在行政院跟立法院之間事件我想人民各機關都可以提起那有關於這個復議經過了多次的改變尤其是後來刪除這個\n\n04:01.400 --> 04:20.033\n行政院長要辭職這個選項之後其實提起復議大概就是比較屬於政治上的一種手段但是提起復議的要件必須是行政院認為自然難行且經總統核可換句話就是說提起復議要總統跟行政院同意才可以\n\n04:20.697 --> 04:36.829\n那他們的標準不是這個法律違憲是他認為自愛難行那至於是不是自愛難行這個有時候就不是那麼樣的客觀可以明確的去判斷那至於呢這個提起憲法訴訟因為他有非常明確的規定\n\n04:38.359 --> 05:02.779\n尤其是他處理的基本上是憲法上的問題所以我個人認為兩個性質不一樣這邊謝謝您因為我還有其他問題要問所以剛剛蕭教授也提到重點確實現在把婦役跟釋憲可能就當成是一種政治對抗的手段那麼本席在這邊要進一步請教大法官要如何去防止\n\n05:04.121 --> 05:11.461\n濫刑釋憲的行為事實上就是很多我們剛剛講到受理申請釋憲案的要件\n\n05:13.888 --> 05:38.887\n要行使职权这是一个重要的要件可是呢事实上我们看到就是在最近的这一年里面不管是行政院或是立法委员他们在提起申请释宪的时候到底他们是不是真的已经有依法去行使那个职权可能有的时候根本还没有开始法案才刚刚通过连实施都没有实施他就立刻申请释宪了\n\n05:39.888 --> 06:03.898\n而且更誇張的是大法官還受理了所以就是說從憲法法庭的角度我們明明看到了現在存在這樣的一個憲政的問題就是政府機關會用拿這個釋憲當成一個他們政治對抗的手段但是我們絕對不希望看到憲法法庭變成是一個政治惡鬥的底下的一個工具\n\n06:04.858 --> 06:09.522\n首先呢就有關於這個立法院提起這個釋憲的時候以前在大審法的時候規定的比較不清楚那大法官在解釋的時候曾經提出\n\n06:31.892 --> 06:36.581\n必須是提出事先的立法委員在立法過程中必須反對\n\n06:37.998 --> 07:06.165\n那現在的憲法訴訟法也採取這樣的方式所以假設你在制定法律的時候沒有反對你就不能提釋憲我想這是一個防止濫權的方式也就是說在立法的時候我什麼都不講反正到時候再提釋憲我想這是一個防止的方式那第二個防止大法官介入這個濫訴當然我們大法官在涉及到中華民國領土判委的時候就提出一個概念就是政治問題政治問題我們不介入\n\n07:08.078 --> 07:28.035\n只是當時候大法官並沒有很清楚的告訴我們哪一個是政治問題當然在國外也有一些標準可以提供我們做參考不過我覺得只要是純粹的政治問題基本上大法官應該也不介入那這樣的話透過這兩個方式可以減少一些不必要的憲法訴訟\n\n07:29.998 --> 07:58.093\n那當然因為每一個訴訟類型都有我想這個部分我要再進一步請教您因為您剛剛講到有關於少數立委提起申請釋憲的問題我們也最近有看到其實大法官在受理立法委員申請釋憲案件的標準不斷的浮動尤其是在今年五月民進黨委員申請憲法訴訟的這個案子然後大法官在人數不足的情況之下還特別開了一個說明會我想任憑誰都可以看得出來\n\n07:58.693 --> 08:18.633\n这大法官明显的新政为什么这么说呢因为过去我们认为说这个少数立委提起这个视线他必须是从早期这个可能一开始是必须要投下反对票而且呢还要等到他是不是有之后曾经有在提出修法案修法案为国\n\n08:18.993 --> 08:45.963\n那么才符合申请事宪的要件那么到后来不断的演进尤其是到这个去年的国会改革法案的这个大法官受理事宪案以及到最近其他召开的这个说明会可以看出来他这个立法委员的反对从过去我们认为你至少要是在三读程序一定要表示反对现在已经可以扩大到说二读程序他就算是没有反对或三读程序没有明显的反对也可以说你们明明知道我们在这边抗议\n\n08:46.243 --> 09:04.829\n你們就知道說我是在反對雖然我沒有投下那個反對票也沒有舉手反對但是大法官依此就可以去認定說他就是反對所以可以同意受理民進黨黨團的這個申請釋憲的這樣的一個案子這是不是已經過於胡亂了\n\n09:07.046 --> 09:29.808\n未来我估计会不会连在委员会开会审议法案表达不同的意见他只要有表达不同的意见就已经符合了所谓的少数立委在表达审查案的时候有投下反对票可以把这投下反对票可以无限的扩张如果说您未来担任大法官您会能够接受像这样子的一个标准吗\n\n09:30.310 --> 09:59.209\n所謂的反對當然是一個相對啦不是絕對的不確定法律概念那不確定法律概念解釋原則上是司法機關但是呢如果立法機關可以透過立法技術讓這個不確定法律概念更加明確的話我覺得是一個解決方法就是說比如說我們在憲法訴訟法裡面就規定什麼叫做反對你必須做過什麼樣的事情才叫反對那在還沒有立法明確規定定義之前那這個不確定法律概念解釋當然是司法機關的職權\n\n10:00.590 --> 10:21.241\n司法機關的職權它的解釋當然除了要用一般解釋方法之外我覺得它要有連貫性要一貫性這是我的想法至於是要廣義的採取或是狹義的採取我想每一個人的想法不一樣但是我的想法很簡單要一貫謝謝謝謝蕭教授的建議您剛的建議我已經記起來了\n\n10:25.703 --> 10:43.141\n我之后我就会提这个立法院职权行使法的修法将少数立法委员反对的时候才能提起事先反对把它定义清楚那么我想基本上就是我们知道每一部法律的制定和修正理论上都会存在的少数立委不赞成的情形但是呢我们\n\n10:43.621 --> 10:57.911\n如果把每部法律因為只要有少數立委可能在不同的場合裡面只要表示反對意見就可以去申請釋憲的話那麼未來司法院就可能會憲法法庭就可能會成為立法院的諮詢機關那麼我們認為說這樣子其實也妨礙了大法官這個要\n\n11:02.814 --> 11:32.201\n办更重要的事情要去做更重要解释的一个空间好那接下来我要谈的就是说因为刚前面的委员们有提到有关于这次的宪法诉讼法的修法那么将宪法法庭的平决门槛还有做成违宪的判决的门槛都提高那么您认为这是不是属于立法形成自由有关于最高司法机关的程序的权利那目前来讲全世界分成两个\n\n11:32.796 --> 11:52.524\n一個是給最高司法機關的程序自主權但是我們國家從大法官會議法大審法一直到憲法訴訟法憲法訴訟的進行我們的程序基本上我們國家的慣例是由立法委員制定程序法規來依循\n\n11:53.484 --> 12:16.276\n好谢谢所以也就是说基本上立法院是有这样的一个立法形成的空间我们可以针对随着时代的不同这个情势的一个改变我们可以有权利去修改这个宪法法庭的这个评议门槛还有就是开会的人数那么这部分的话我认为说其实现在\n\n12:18.036 --> 12:40.886\n包含司法院以及這個立法小數民進黨立法委員認為說這是有違憲那本行是不贊同這樣的看法我也希望說大法官他現在已經受理這個案子雖然說我認為說他根本不應該受理但是如果說他真的是受理這個案子的並且進行審議的話那麼我認為說他基本上應該還是要考慮到有關於立法形成的\n\n12:42.287 --> 13:00.856\n呃呃這個空間要給立法者有更多的可以去制定修法的這樣的一個呃一個一個裁量的一個權利啊好那麼接下來本席好再請教就是說呃因為在去年憲法法庭連續做了兩件引起社會輿論嘩然的判決一個就是反廢死一一三\n\n13:01.576 --> 13:04.799\n我剛聽到好像有些地方你不是很贊同對就是我要先講哪一個\n\n13:23.087 --> 13:50.976\n沒關係這樣好了因為我時間有限我還是直接就詢問就是說其實本席特別在意的就是有關於國會改革法案當時大法官其實在憲判自9號判決裡面其實做了對於我們的立法院職權實施法的修法多數條文都宣告是違憲的那麼在這邊我想請問你你是否支持大法官的意見認為立法院是不能夠處罰說謊的政府官員\n\n13:51.676 --> 14:16.156\n那對於這些為虛偽不實陳述或無故缺席政府官員既不能苛語刑罰也不能夠處罰更不能移送監察院您是否贊成這樣的論調有關於這個藐視國會的問題因為這個是一個全世界大部分都有的制度那當然我們看的主要都是美國不過藐視國會在美國是用刑事制裁這個我不是很贊成\n\n14:17.779 --> 14:34.563\n是,本期在這邊提醒你,不僅是美國、日本、法國、德國都有苛處刑罰因為我剛有聽到您在詢問賴瑞龍委員的回答您基本上是不認為台灣有必要去苛處秒死無悔罪的刑事責任那對於審訊處罰呢?\n\n14:38.024 --> 14:53.228\n法環我們當時在立法院執權刑事法修法的時候我們其實對於虛偽陳述或無故缺席等等這些藐視國會的公務員我們有科除兩萬元以下兩萬元以上的二十萬以內的這個法環您認為這樣的處罰也不合理嗎在585號解釋裡面對於這個\n\n14:58.368 --> 15:12.126\n責任已經有一些討論了我個人是認為說行事責任我覺得他是最有手段以目前台灣的情形比較不適合然後行政責任或者內部的責任這個我贊成\n\n15:12.887 --> 15:22.497\n但是對象應該只限於公務員一般人民我現在只是針對政府官員所以你同不同意可以處罰可以給予行政罰款對但是就是說處罰的構成要件一定要明確\n\n15:29.384 --> 15:53.296\n是我不知道就是說蕭教授你有沒有看過我們的仔細看過我們的這個立法院職權刑事法的修法我們所有的修法的條文內容都跟現行在散落在各個不同行政法規裡面處罰虛偽陳述的條文的過程要件是一模一樣的我們並沒有特別增加也沒有就是特別的模糊\n\n15:54.456 --> 16:10.194\n那麼所以就這個部分來說的話本席基本上認為說未來我們還是要朝向要再去制定藐視國會的處罰這個方向去做那麼在這裡我想請教就是如果說依照大法官現在的解釋到底我們\n\n16:12.535 --> 16:33.443\n從權力分立制衡的角度您認為立法院還有什麼樣的制衡工具可以去防止或者是去針對官員說謊拒不提供資料等等這些情況我們有什麼樣的一個制衡反制的措施因為我們國家目前還是無權分立的狀態對於政府官員來講\n\n16:40.950 --> 17:04.511\n移送監察院這個當然是一條道路我們不管現在監察院運作如何但是大法官也說立法院無權移送監察院當然其實大法官所做的這個解釋也很奇怪其實任何一個人都可以把這個案子移送監察院只是我們把它明文寫在裡面但大法官也認為是不行移送公務員最好的方式就是違法跟失職以前的規定\n\n17:05.552 --> 17:24.610\n那現在我覺得比較麻煩的就是說雖然剛剛委員講過我們的那個很多條文都是在其他的法律裡面這樣把它搬過來的但是我可能要提醒一下就是說因為在立法院裡面的質詢回答他比較充滿了比較多的政治語言\n\n17:25.404 --> 17:44.689\n那政治語言在大法官的解釋裡面他是相對比較衝向的我們現在講的虛偽不實無故缺席拒不提供資料這些都是非常清楚的事實而且如果說立法院正要處罰我們還經過立法院用會的同意坦白說那個門檻非常高啊比行政機關\n\n17:45.629 --> 18:01.807\n这个认为哪个人民他这个像我们最近报税如果有报税不实立刻就处罚了我们在立法院我们要去处罚一个政府官员有类似像这样违法事实的行为门槛非常高程序也很难过的就很难会通过的\n\n18:02.287 --> 18:30.843\n对所以呢这个部分我想这是完全不是政治语言这就是一个很清楚的事实那么我想因为您刚刚讲的意见我大概也都知道了您大概也不反对就是说可以做行政处罚但是就是希望能够这个在事实证据更清楚的情况之下然后才能够做这样处罚那么我刚刚已经说了假设我们立法院还要继续去推动处罚藐视国会的这样子一个条文您认为\n\n18:32.731 --> 18:58.092\n會違憲嗎您曾經在二十多年前寫過一篇大作就是法規違憲解釋的拘束力裡面有特別有提到有關於大法官解釋的拘束力是否會拘束大法官本身還有立法機關您的看法呢如果說我們今天立法委員立法院經過多數我們認為重要的法案\n\n18:59.246 --> 19:06.483\n這是民眾民意所支持的法案我們重新再制定相同的法規或是類似的法規這有違憲嗎\n\n19:08.928 --> 19:29.569\n首先就是有關於有沒有拘束大法官我想大法官的制度裡面本來就可以做補充解釋而且我們大法官制度裡面本來就有後面的憲法判決推翻前面大法官的這個例子就是那個強制道歉的案子所以拘束力是有但是原則上是相對的只要你的後面的理由是正確的\n\n19:30.519 --> 19:42.612\n至於大法官的解釋或是憲法法庭的解釋有沒有拘束後來的立法者這個要看情形如果一模一樣的那這個當然有拘束力\n\n19:43.240 --> 20:05.126\n如果已經做了調整跟原來的法規沒有一致性或是就是他已經有改變了特殊的狀況那當然就是可以重新實現這個沒有問題所以我想就是因為我非常贊成您在當時這個大法官解釋效力的這個文章裡面所提到的其實我們的立法者\n\n20:05.626 --> 20:23.538\n他也要與時俱進能夠跟民意做就是能夠回應民意的這個需求來制定合理的這個法律的條文那麼本來立法就有創造補充修正的這樣的一個機制所以呢立法\n\n20:24.898 --> 20:46.484\n所以立法者基本上如果說重新制定相同或者是類似的內容在沒有人提出這個申請釋憲違憲的情況之前它當然還是有效的是吧就是我說的應該沒有錯就算我們制定了相同的條文內容制定了類似的條文內容但是在沒有人提起釋憲之前被憲法法庭確保違憲這應該不夠重違憲\n\n21:00.696 --> 21:06.199\n好謝謝謝謝翁小林委員詢問也謝謝被提名人蕭教授的說明\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.149,"end":10.167,"text":"我們接下來請登記第四號第四位翁曉琳委員請詢問陳金威委員請準備"},{"start":30.431,"end":36.356,"text":"院長好 這邊先有請蕭教授麻煩再請被提名人蕭教授說明"},{"start":43.015,"end":65.971,"text":"好委員好是蕭貝廷您人好我在這邊其實還是習慣尊稱您為蕭老師蕭教授所以我想待會質詢的時候呢我就以蕭教授來這個稱會然後來跟您進行一些討論我想就是在這次這個蕭老師您被提名為大法官的這個候選人"},{"start":66.471,"end":93.931,"text":"那事實上以我個人的觀點因為蕭老師您在我們學界也是得高望重而且非常認真然後學有專精的學者所以我其實是很高興看到您能夠被提名為大法官候選人不過因為現在我們的憲政也面臨到一些比較困難的處境尤其是憲政爭議不斷所以在這邊我待會也會請教您幾個"},{"start":95.653,"end":123.32,"text":"與市縣有關的一些問題我們知道其實從賴清德總統上任以來目前他執政一年可是行政院他所提起的復議的次數是創下有史以來的記錄我不知道您曉不曉得我們從我們行縣以來一直到113年賴清德總統上任之前我們曾經有過多少次的行政院所提起的復議案"},{"start":125.101,"end":150.398,"text":"具體的數字我不知道但是很少因為以前的規定還有包括行政院長要辭職所以提出復議案的風險很大所以提出的數量應該是個位數吧我這邊告訴您就是從行政院一直到113年的2月之前我們總共只有13次的復議案但是從賴清德總統他去年5月就職之後到現在"},{"start":151.178,"end":174.721,"text":"行政院已經提起了七次的復議而且是屢敗屢戰但是即便如此我們預期他還會繼續對他們不合意不滿意的法案來提起復議那麼現在這個行政院他提起復議失敗之後他並沒有很認分的就說是依法去行政而是他很快就會提起釋憲"},{"start":175.982,"end":200.375,"text":"那麼民進黨的立法院黨團基本上也是配合著現在賴清德政府的這樣的一個做法配合行政院的做法只要是在總統公佈法律之後他們也會立刻提起釋憲這就像是立法院民進黨立法院黨團總召柯建民所說的這已經是一種標配那對於目前已經提起的釋憲的法案"},{"start":201.255,"end":222.394,"text":"和預算案已經有六件所以在這樣的情況之下本席想要請教蕭教授就是您認為將釋憲作為一個政治對抗手段將大法官扯入政治紛爭之中的這種做法是否正確謝謝委員長首先呢這個復議跟提起憲法訴訟是我們"},{"start":226.076,"end":239.352,"text":"憲法上兩種不同的設計那復議只有在行政院跟立法院之間事件我想人民各機關都可以提起那有關於這個復議經過了多次的改變尤其是後來刪除這個"},{"start":241.4,"end":260.033,"text":"行政院長要辭職這個選項之後其實提起復議大概就是比較屬於政治上的一種手段但是提起復議的要件必須是行政院認為自然難行且經總統核可換句話就是說提起復議要總統跟行政院同意才可以"},{"start":260.697,"end":276.829,"text":"那他們的標準不是這個法律違憲是他認為自愛難行那至於是不是自愛難行這個有時候就不是那麼樣的客觀可以明確的去判斷那至於呢這個提起憲法訴訟因為他有非常明確的規定"},{"start":278.359,"end":302.779,"text":"尤其是他處理的基本上是憲法上的問題所以我個人認為兩個性質不一樣這邊謝謝您因為我還有其他問題要問所以剛剛蕭教授也提到重點確實現在把婦役跟釋憲可能就當成是一種政治對抗的手段那麼本席在這邊要進一步請教大法官要如何去防止"},{"start":304.121,"end":311.461,"text":"濫刑釋憲的行為事實上就是很多我們剛剛講到受理申請釋憲案的要件"},{"start":313.888,"end":338.887,"text":"要行使职权这是一个重要的要件可是呢事实上我们看到就是在最近的这一年里面不管是行政院或是立法委员他们在提起申请释宪的时候到底他们是不是真的已经有依法去行使那个职权可能有的时候根本还没有开始法案才刚刚通过连实施都没有实施他就立刻申请释宪了"},{"start":339.888,"end":363.898,"text":"而且更誇張的是大法官還受理了所以就是說從憲法法庭的角度我們明明看到了現在存在這樣的一個憲政的問題就是政府機關會用拿這個釋憲當成一個他們政治對抗的手段但是我們絕對不希望看到憲法法庭變成是一個政治惡鬥的底下的一個工具"},{"start":364.858,"end":369.522,"text":"首先呢就有關於這個立法院提起這個釋憲的時候以前在大審法的時候規定的比較不清楚那大法官在解釋的時候曾經提出"},{"start":391.892,"end":396.581,"text":"必須是提出事先的立法委員在立法過程中必須反對"},{"start":397.998,"end":426.165,"text":"那現在的憲法訴訟法也採取這樣的方式所以假設你在制定法律的時候沒有反對你就不能提釋憲我想這是一個防止濫權的方式也就是說在立法的時候我什麼都不講反正到時候再提釋憲我想這是一個防止的方式那第二個防止大法官介入這個濫訴當然我們大法官在涉及到中華民國領土判委的時候就提出一個概念就是政治問題政治問題我們不介入"},{"start":428.078,"end":448.035,"text":"只是當時候大法官並沒有很清楚的告訴我們哪一個是政治問題當然在國外也有一些標準可以提供我們做參考不過我覺得只要是純粹的政治問題基本上大法官應該也不介入那這樣的話透過這兩個方式可以減少一些不必要的憲法訴訟"},{"start":449.998,"end":478.093,"text":"那當然因為每一個訴訟類型都有我想這個部分我要再進一步請教您因為您剛剛講到有關於少數立委提起申請釋憲的問題我們也最近有看到其實大法官在受理立法委員申請釋憲案件的標準不斷的浮動尤其是在今年五月民進黨委員申請憲法訴訟的這個案子然後大法官在人數不足的情況之下還特別開了一個說明會我想任憑誰都可以看得出來"},{"start":478.693,"end":498.633,"text":"这大法官明显的新政为什么这么说呢因为过去我们认为说这个少数立委提起这个视线他必须是从早期这个可能一开始是必须要投下反对票而且呢还要等到他是不是有之后曾经有在提出修法案修法案为国"},{"start":498.993,"end":525.963,"text":"那么才符合申请事宪的要件那么到后来不断的演进尤其是到这个去年的国会改革法案的这个大法官受理事宪案以及到最近其他召开的这个说明会可以看出来他这个立法委员的反对从过去我们认为你至少要是在三读程序一定要表示反对现在已经可以扩大到说二读程序他就算是没有反对或三读程序没有明显的反对也可以说你们明明知道我们在这边抗议"},{"start":526.243,"end":544.829,"text":"你們就知道說我是在反對雖然我沒有投下那個反對票也沒有舉手反對但是大法官依此就可以去認定說他就是反對所以可以同意受理民進黨黨團的這個申請釋憲的這樣的一個案子這是不是已經過於胡亂了"},{"start":547.046,"end":569.808,"text":"未来我估计会不会连在委员会开会审议法案表达不同的意见他只要有表达不同的意见就已经符合了所谓的少数立委在表达审查案的时候有投下反对票可以把这投下反对票可以无限的扩张如果说您未来担任大法官您会能够接受像这样子的一个标准吗"},{"start":570.31,"end":599.209,"text":"所謂的反對當然是一個相對啦不是絕對的不確定法律概念那不確定法律概念解釋原則上是司法機關但是呢如果立法機關可以透過立法技術讓這個不確定法律概念更加明確的話我覺得是一個解決方法就是說比如說我們在憲法訴訟法裡面就規定什麼叫做反對你必須做過什麼樣的事情才叫反對那在還沒有立法明確規定定義之前那這個不確定法律概念解釋當然是司法機關的職權"},{"start":600.59,"end":621.241,"text":"司法機關的職權它的解釋當然除了要用一般解釋方法之外我覺得它要有連貫性要一貫性這是我的想法至於是要廣義的採取或是狹義的採取我想每一個人的想法不一樣但是我的想法很簡單要一貫謝謝謝謝蕭教授的建議您剛的建議我已經記起來了"},{"start":625.703,"end":643.141,"text":"我之后我就会提这个立法院职权行使法的修法将少数立法委员反对的时候才能提起事先反对把它定义清楚那么我想基本上就是我们知道每一部法律的制定和修正理论上都会存在的少数立委不赞成的情形但是呢我们"},{"start":643.621,"end":657.911,"text":"如果把每部法律因為只要有少數立委可能在不同的場合裡面只要表示反對意見就可以去申請釋憲的話那麼未來司法院就可能會憲法法庭就可能會成為立法院的諮詢機關那麼我們認為說這樣子其實也妨礙了大法官這個要"},{"start":662.814,"end":692.201,"text":"办更重要的事情要去做更重要解释的一个空间好那接下来我要谈的就是说因为刚前面的委员们有提到有关于这次的宪法诉讼法的修法那么将宪法法庭的平决门槛还有做成违宪的判决的门槛都提高那么您认为这是不是属于立法形成自由有关于最高司法机关的程序的权利那目前来讲全世界分成两个"},{"start":692.796,"end":712.524,"text":"一個是給最高司法機關的程序自主權但是我們國家從大法官會議法大審法一直到憲法訴訟法憲法訴訟的進行我們的程序基本上我們國家的慣例是由立法委員制定程序法規來依循"},{"start":713.484,"end":736.276,"text":"好谢谢所以也就是说基本上立法院是有这样的一个立法形成的空间我们可以针对随着时代的不同这个情势的一个改变我们可以有权利去修改这个宪法法庭的这个评议门槛还有就是开会的人数那么这部分的话我认为说其实现在"},{"start":738.036,"end":760.886,"text":"包含司法院以及這個立法小數民進黨立法委員認為說這是有違憲那本行是不贊同這樣的看法我也希望說大法官他現在已經受理這個案子雖然說我認為說他根本不應該受理但是如果說他真的是受理這個案子的並且進行審議的話那麼我認為說他基本上應該還是要考慮到有關於立法形成的"},{"start":762.287,"end":780.856,"text":"呃呃這個空間要給立法者有更多的可以去制定修法的這樣的一個呃一個一個裁量的一個權利啊好那麼接下來本席好再請教就是說呃因為在去年憲法法庭連續做了兩件引起社會輿論嘩然的判決一個就是反廢死一一三"},{"start":781.576,"end":784.799,"text":"我剛聽到好像有些地方你不是很贊同對 就是我要先講哪一個"},{"start":803.087,"end":830.976,"text":"沒關係這樣好了因為我時間有限我還是直接就詢問就是說其實本席特別在意的就是有關於國會改革法案當時大法官其實在憲判自9號判決裡面其實做了對於我們的立法院職權實施法的修法多數條文都宣告是違憲的那麼在這邊我想請問你你是否支持大法官的意見認為立法院是不能夠處罰說謊的政府官員"},{"start":831.676,"end":856.156,"text":"那對於這些為虛偽不實陳述或無故缺席政府官員既不能苛語刑罰也不能夠處罰更不能移送監察院您是否贊成這樣的論調有關於這個藐視國會的問題因為這個是一個全世界大部分都有的制度那當然我們看的主要都是美國不過藐視國會在美國是用刑事制裁這個我不是很贊成"},{"start":857.779,"end":874.563,"text":"是,本期在這邊提醒你,不僅是美國、日本、法國、德國都有苛處刑罰因為我剛有聽到您在詢問賴瑞龍委員的回答您基本上是不認為台灣有必要去苛處秒死無悔罪的刑事責任那對於審訊處罰呢?"},{"start":878.024,"end":893.228,"text":"法環我們當時在立法院執權刑事法修法的時候我們其實對於虛偽陳述或無故缺席等等這些藐視國會的公務員我們有科除兩萬元以下兩萬元以上的二十萬以內的這個法環您認為這樣的處罰也不合理嗎在585號解釋裡面對於這個"},{"start":898.368,"end":912.126,"text":"責任已經有一些討論了我個人是認為說行事責任我覺得他是最有手段以目前台灣的情形比較不適合然後行政責任或者內部的責任這個我贊成"},{"start":912.887,"end":922.497,"text":"但是對象應該只限於公務員一般人民我現在只是針對政府官員所以你同不同意可以處罰可以給予行政罰款對 但是就是說處罰的構成要件一定要明確"},{"start":929.384,"end":953.296,"text":"是我不知道就是說蕭教授你有沒有看過我們的仔細看過我們的這個立法院職權刑事法的修法我們所有的修法的條文內容都跟現行在散落在各個不同行政法規裡面處罰虛偽陳述的條文的過程要件是一模一樣的我們並沒有特別增加也沒有就是特別的模糊"},{"start":954.456,"end":970.194,"text":"那麼所以就這個部分來說的話本席基本上認為說未來我們還是要朝向要再去制定藐視國會的處罰這個方向去做那麼在這裡我想請教就是如果說依照大法官現在的解釋到底我們"},{"start":972.535,"end":993.443,"text":"從權力分立制衡的角度您認為立法院還有什麼樣的制衡工具可以去防止或者是去針對官員說謊拒不提供資料等等這些情況我們有什麼樣的一個制衡反制的措施因為我們國家目前還是無權分立的狀態對於政府官員來講"},{"start":1000.95,"end":1024.511,"text":"移送監察院這個當然是一條道路我們不管現在監察院運作如何但是大法官也說立法院無權移送監察院當然其實大法官所做的這個解釋也很奇怪其實任何一個人都可以把這個案子移送監察院只是我們把它明文寫在裡面但大法官也認為是不行移送公務員最好的方式就是違法跟失職以前的規定"},{"start":1025.552,"end":1044.61,"text":"那現在我覺得比較麻煩的就是說雖然剛剛委員講過我們的那個很多條文都是在其他的法律裡面這樣把它搬過來的但是我可能要提醒一下就是說因為在立法院裡面的質詢回答他比較充滿了比較多的政治語言"},{"start":1045.404,"end":1064.689,"text":"那政治語言在大法官的解釋裡面他是相對比較衝向的我們現在講的虛偽不實無故缺席拒不提供資料這些都是非常清楚的事實而且如果說立法院正要處罰我們還經過立法院用會的同意坦白說那個門檻非常高啊比行政機關"},{"start":1065.629,"end":1081.807,"text":"这个认为哪个人民他这个像我们最近报税如果有报税不实立刻就处罚了我们在立法院我们要去处罚一个政府官员有类似像这样违法事实的行为门槛非常高程序也很难过的就很难会通过的"},{"start":1082.287,"end":1110.843,"text":"对所以呢这个部分我想这是完全不是政治语言这就是一个很清楚的事实那么我想因为您刚刚讲的意见我大概也都知道了您大概也不反对就是说可以做行政处罚但是就是希望能够这个在事实证据更清楚的情况之下然后才能够做这样处罚那么我刚刚已经说了假设我们立法院还要继续去推动处罚藐视国会的这样子一个条文您认为"},{"start":1112.731,"end":1138.092,"text":"會違憲嗎您曾經在二十多年前寫過一篇大作就是法規違憲解釋的拘束力裡面有特別有提到有關於大法官解釋的拘束力是否會拘束大法官本身還有立法機關您的看法呢如果說我們今天立法委員立法院經過多數我們認為重要的法案"},{"start":1139.246,"end":1146.483,"text":"這是民眾民意所支持的法案我們重新再制定相同的法規或是類似的法規這有違憲嗎"},{"start":1148.928,"end":1169.569,"text":"首先就是有關於有沒有拘束大法官我想大法官的制度裡面本來就可以做補充解釋而且我們大法官制度裡面本來就有後面的憲法判決推翻前面大法官的這個例子就是那個強制道歉的案子所以拘束力是有但是原則上是相對的只要你的後面的理由是正確的"},{"start":1170.519,"end":1182.612,"text":"至於大法官的解釋或是憲法法庭的解釋有沒有拘束後來的立法者這個要看情形如果一模一樣的那這個當然有拘束力"},{"start":1183.24,"end":1205.126,"text":"如果已經做了調整跟原來的法規沒有一致性或是就是他已經有改變了特殊的狀況那當然就是可以重新實現這個沒有問題所以我想就是因為我非常贊成您在當時這個大法官解釋效力的這個文章裡面所提到的其實我們的立法者"},{"start":1205.626,"end":1223.538,"text":"他也要與時俱進能夠跟民意做就是能夠回應民意的這個需求來制定合理的這個法律的條文那麼本來立法就有創造補充修正的這樣的一個機制所以呢立法"},{"start":1224.898,"end":1246.484,"text":"所以立法者基本上如果說重新制定相同或者是類似的內容在沒有人提出這個申請釋憲違憲的情況之前它當然還是有效的 是吧就是我說的應該沒有錯就算我們制定了相同的條文內容制定了類似的條文內容但是在沒有人提起釋憲之前被憲法法庭確保違憲這應該不夠重違憲"},{"start":1260.696,"end":1266.199,"text":"好謝謝謝謝翁小林委員詢問也謝謝被提名人蕭教授的說明"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":269,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（10時15分）院長好！先有請蕭教授、蕭大法官被提名人。"],["主席：麻煩再請被提名人蕭教授說明。"],["蕭文生被提名人：委員好！"],["翁委員曉玲：蕭被提名人好！我其實還是習慣尊稱您為蕭老師、蕭教授……"],["蕭文生被提名人：謝謝。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以待會質詢的時候，我就以蕭教授來稱謂，來跟您進行一些討論。這次蕭老師被提名為大法官候選人，事實上，以我個人的觀點，因為蕭老師在我們學界也是德高望重，而且是非常認真、學有專精的學者，所以我其實很高興看到您能夠被提名為大法官候選人。不過因為現在我們的憲政面臨到一些比較困難的處境，尤其是憲政爭議不斷，所以我待會也會請教您幾個與釋憲有關的問題。","我們知道，從賴清德總統上任以來，目前他執政1年，可是行政院所提起的覆議次數是創下有史以來的紀錄。我不知道您曉不曉得，從我們行憲以來，一直到113年賴清德總統上任之前，我們曾經有過多少次行政院所提起的覆議案？"],["蕭文生被提名人：具體的數字我不知道，但是很少，因為以前的規定還有包括行政院長要辭職，所以提出覆議案的風險很大，我想提出的數量應該是個位數吧！"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我告訴您，從行憲以來，一直到113年2月之前，我們總共只有13次的覆議案，但是從賴清德總統去年5月就職之後到現在，行政院已經提起了7次的覆議，而且是屢敗屢戰！即便如此，我們預期他還會繼續對他們不合意、不滿意的法案來提起覆議。而且現在行政院提起覆議失敗之後，並沒有很認分的依法去行政，而是很快就會提起釋憲，民進黨的立法院黨團基本上也是配合著現在賴清德政府這樣的作法、配合行政院的作法，只要在總統公布法律之後，他們也會立刻提起釋憲，這就像是民進黨立法院黨團總召柯建銘所說的，已經是一種標配。","目前已經提起釋憲的法案和預算案有6件，在這樣的情況之下，本席想要請教蕭教授，您認為將釋憲作為一個政治對抗的手段，將大法官扯入政治紛爭之中的這種作法是否正確？"],["蕭文生被提名人：謝謝委員。首先，覆議及提起憲法訴訟是我們憲法上兩種不同的設計，覆議只有在行政院與立法院之間，至於釋憲，我想人民、各機關都可以提起。有關於覆議，經過了多次的改變，尤其是後來刪除行政院長要辭職這個選項之後，提起覆議大概就是比較屬於政治上的一種手段。但是提起覆議的要件必須是行政院認為窒礙難行，且經總統核可，換句話說，提起覆議要總統及行政院同意才可以，且他們的標準不是這個法律違憲，是他認為窒礙難行，至於是不是窒礙難行，有時候就不是那麼樣的客觀可以明確的去判斷……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，了解。"],["蕭文生被提名人：至於提起憲法訴訟，因為它有非常明確的規定，尤其是它處理的基本上是憲法上的問題，所以我個人認為兩個性質不一樣，然後……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，了解，謝謝您，因為我還有其他的問題要問。所以剛剛蕭教授也提到了重點，確實現在可能把覆議及釋憲就當成是一種政治對抗的手段。","本席也要進一步請教，大法官要如何去防止濫行釋憲的行為？事實上，很多我們剛剛講到受理聲請釋憲案的要件，行使職權這是一個重要的要件，可是我們看到在最近這一年裡面，不管是行政院或是立法委員在提起聲請釋憲的時候，到底他們是不是真的已經有依法去行使那個職權？可能有的時候根本就還沒有開始，法案才剛通過，連實施都還沒實施，他就立刻聲請釋憲了，而且更誇張的是，大法官還受理了。所以從憲法法庭的角度，我們明明看到現在存在這樣一個憲政的問題，就是政府機關會拿釋憲當成他們政治對抗的一個手段，但是我們絕對不希望看到憲法法庭變成政治惡鬥底下的一個工具，而且濫行訴訟本來就會造成浪費司法資源。所以從這個角度來看，您認為現在大法官受理聲請釋憲案的標準會不會過於寬鬆？我們有什麼樣的方法可以防止這種濫行釋憲的行為？"],["蕭文生被提名人：首先有關於立法委員提起釋憲，以前在大審法的時候規定得比較不清楚，大法官在解釋的時候曾經提出，提出釋憲的立法委員在立法過程中必須反對，現在的憲法訴訟法也採取這樣的方式，就是假設他在制定法律的時候沒有反對，那他就不能提釋憲，我想這是一個防止濫權的方式，也就是說，在立法的時候他不能什麼都不講，想說反正到時候再提釋憲，我想這是一個防止的方式。第二個，防止大法官介入濫訴或是介入其他，當然大法官在涉及到中華民國領土範圍的時候，就有提出一個概念，就是政治問題，政治問題我們不介入，只是當時候大法官並沒有很清楚地告訴我們哪一個是政治問題，當然在國外也有一些標準可以提供我們做參考，不過我覺得只要是純粹的政治問題，基本上大法官應該也不介入，這樣一來，透過這兩個方式就可以減少一些不必要的憲法訴訟。當然因為每一個訴訟類型都有……"],["翁委員曉玲：針對這個部分，我要再進一步請教你，因為你剛剛講到有關於少數立委提起聲請釋憲的問題，我們最近有看到，其實大法官在受理立法委員聲請釋憲案件的標準不斷地浮動，尤其是在今年5月民進黨委員聲請憲法訴訟的案子，大法官在人數不足的情況之下還特別開了一個說明會，我想任憑誰都可以看得出來這大法官明顯的心證，為什麼這麼說呢？因為過去我們認為少數立委提起釋憲，從早期可能一開始是必須要投下反對票，而且還要等到他是否之後曾經有再提出修法案且修法案未果後，才符合聲請釋憲的要件。到後來不斷地演進，尤其是到去年國會改革法案的大法官受理釋憲案以及到最近期所召開的說明會就可以看出，立法委員的反對，從過去我們認為他至少要在三讀程序表示反對，到現在已經可以擴大到他就算二讀程序沒有反對，或三讀程序沒有明顯地反對，也可以說：你們明明知道我們在這邊抗議，你們就知道我是在反對，雖然我沒有投下反對票，也沒有舉手反對，但是大法官依此就可以認定他就是反對，所以可以同意受理民進黨黨團的聲請釋憲案，這是不是已經過於浮濫了？未來會不會連在委員會開會審理法案時，只要立法委員有表達不同的意見，就已經符合所謂少數立委在審查案的時候有投下反對票，把投下反對票這點無限地擴張？如果你未來擔任大法官，你能夠接受像這樣的標準嗎？"],["蕭文生被提名人：所謂的反對，當然是一個相對，而不是絕對的不確定法律概念。不確定法律概念解釋原則上是司法機關，但是如果立法機關可以透過立法技術讓這個不確定法律概念更加明確的話，我覺得是一個解決方法。比如說，我們在憲法訴訟法裡面就規定什麼叫做反對，你必須做過什麼樣的事情才叫反對，但在還沒有立法明確規定定義之前，這個不確定法律概念解釋當然是司法機關的職權，而司法機關依職權的解釋，除了要用一般的解釋方法之外，我覺得它要有連貫性、一貫性，這是我的想法。至於是要廣義的採取或是狹義的採取，我想每個人的想法不一樣，但是我的想法很簡單，就是要一貫，謝謝。"],["翁委員曉玲：謝謝蕭教授的建議，您剛剛的建議我已經記起來了，我之後就會提立法院職權行使法的修法，將少數立法委員反對的時候才能提起釋憲的「反對」定義清楚。基本上我們知道每一部法律的制定跟修正理論上都會存在著少數立委不贊成的情形，但是如果每一部法律只要有少數立委可能在不同的場合裡面表示過反對意見就可以去聲請釋憲的話，那麼未來憲法法庭就可能會成為立法院的諮詢機關，我們認為這樣子其實也妨礙了大法官要辦更重要的事情、要去做更重要的解釋的空間。","接下來我要談的是，因為剛剛前面的委員們有提到，有關於這次憲法訴訟法的修法，將憲法法庭的評決門檻及作成違憲判決的門檻都提高，您認為這是不是屬於立法形成自由？"],["蕭文生被提名人：有關於最高司法機關程序的權力，目前來講全世界分成兩個，一個是給最高司法機關的程序自主權，但是我們國家從大法官會議法、大審法一直到憲法訴訟法，憲法訴訟的進行，依照我們的程序，基本上我們國家的慣例是由立法委員制定程序法規來依循。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝。也就是說，基本上立法院是有這樣的立法形成空間，隨著時代的不同、情勢的改變，我們可以有權力去修改憲法法庭的評議門檻以及開會人數。關於這個部分，現在包含司法院以及少數民進黨立法委員認為這是有違憲的，本席是不贊同這樣的看法，我也希望大法官……他現在已經受理這個案子了，雖然我認為他根本不應該受理，但是如果他真的是受理這個案子並且進行審議的話，那麼我認為他基本上應該還是要考慮到有關於立法形成的空間，要給立法者有更多可以去制定修法這樣的裁量權力。","接下來本席還要再請教，因為在去年憲法法庭連續作了2件引起社會輿論譁然的判決，即113年憲判字第8號及憲判字第9號判決，一個是實質廢死的判決，另外一個是國會改革法案的判決。請問您是否支持這2號判決的內容？我剛剛聽到你好像有些地方不是很贊同，對不對？"],["蕭文生被提名人：對，我要先講哪一個？"],["翁委員曉玲：沒關係，這樣好了，因為我時間有限，我還是直接詢問，其實本席特別在意的是有關於國會改革法案，當時大法官在憲判字第9號判決裡面，對於立法院職權行使法的修法，多數條文都宣告是違憲的。在這邊我想請問你，你是否支持大法官的意見，認為立法院是不能夠處罰說謊的政府官員？對於這些虛偽不實陳述或無故缺席的政府官員，既不能科予刑罰，也不能夠處罰，更不能移送監察院，您是否贊成這樣的論調？"],["蕭文生被提名人：有關於藐視國會的問題，因為這是一個全世界大部分都有的制度，當然我們看的主要是美國，不過藐視國會在美國是用刑事制裁，這個我不是很贊成……"],["翁委員曉玲：本席在這邊提醒你，不僅是美國，日本、法國、德國都有科處刑罰，因為我剛剛有聽到您在回答賴瑞隆委員的質詢時提到，基本上您不認為臺灣有必要去科處藐視國會罪的刑事責任，但對於行政處罰或罰款呢？"],["蕭文生被提名人：刑事責任因為……"],["翁委員曉玲：當時在立法院職權行使法修法的時候，對於虛偽陳述或無故缺席等這些藐視國會的公務員，我們有科處二萬元以上二十萬以下的罰鍰，您認為這樣的處罰也不合理嗎？"],["蕭文生被提名人：在585號解釋裡面，對於這個責任已經有一些討論，我個人認為刑事責任是最後手段，以目前臺灣的情形比較不適合。然後行政責任或者內部的責任，這個我贊成，但是對象應該只限於公務員，一般人民……"],["翁委員曉玲：當然是針對公務員，我現在只針對政府官員、公務員，所以你同不同意可以處罰？"],["蕭文生被提名人：這個我贊成，但是……"],["翁委員曉玲：可以給予行政罰鍰？"],["蕭文生被提名人：對，但是處罰的構成要件一定要明確，因為這是行政罰……"],["翁委員曉玲：我不知道蕭教授有沒有仔細看過立法院職權行使法的修法？所有修法的條文內容都跟現行散落在各個不同行政法規裡面處罰虛偽陳述條文的構成要件是一模一樣的，並沒有特別增加，也沒有特別模糊。就這個部分來說，本席基本上認為未來我們還是朝向要再制定藐視國會的處罰這個方向去做。那麼在這裡我想請教，如果依照大法官現在的解釋，從權力分立制衡的角度，您認為立法院到底還有什麼樣的制衡工具可以防止或者針對官員說謊、拒不提供資料等等情況？我們有什麼樣的制衡、反制的措施？"],["蕭文生被提名人：因為我國目前還是五權分立的狀態，對於政府官員來講，移送監察院當然是一條道路，不管現在監察院的運作如何，理論上是有這個……"],["翁委員曉玲：對，但是大法官也說立法院無權移送監察院，當然大法官所做的這號解釋也很奇怪，其實任何一個人都可以把這個案子移送監察院，只是我們把它明文寫在裡面，但大法官也認為不行，所以還有什麼方法？"],["蕭文生被提名人：移送公務員最好的方式就是違法跟失職，這是以前的規定。現在我覺得比較麻煩的就是，雖然剛剛委員講過，很多條文都是從其他的法律裡面把它搬過來的，但是我可能要提醒一下，因為在立法院裡面的質詢、回答充滿了比較多的政治語言，政治語言在大法官的解釋裡面是相對比較抽象的。"],["翁委員曉玲：蕭教授，我們都是法律人，現在講的虛偽不實、無故缺席及拒不提供資料，這些都是非常清楚的事實，而且如果立法院真的要處罰，還要經過立法院院會的同意，坦白說，那個門檻非常高，比行政機關認為哪個人民……像最近報稅，如果有報稅不實，立刻就處罰了，我們在立法院要去處罰政府官員有類似這樣違法失職的行為，門檻非常高，程序也很難會通過，所以這個部分完全不是政治語言，就是一個很清楚的事實。您剛剛講的意見，我大概也都知道，您大概也不反對可以做行政處罰，但是希望在事實、證據更清楚的情況之下，才能夠做這樣的處罰。我剛剛已經說了，假設立法院還要繼續推動處罰藐視國會這樣的條文，您認為會違憲嗎？您曾經在二十多年前寫過一篇大作，就是法規違憲解釋的拘束力，裡面有特別提到關於大法官解釋的拘束力，是否會拘束大法官本身還有立法機關。您的看法呢？如果今天立法委員、立法院經過多數同意，把我們認為重要的法案，而這是民眾民意所支持的法案，重新再制定相同的法規或是類似的法規，這有違憲嗎？"],["蕭文生被提名人：首先就是關於有沒有拘束大法官，大法官的制度裡面本來就可以補充解釋，而且大法官的制度裡面本來就有後面的憲法判決推翻前面大法官的例子，就是強制道歉那個案子，所以拘束力是有，但原則上是相對的，只要後面的理由是正確的。至於大法官的解釋或是憲法法庭的解釋，有沒有拘束後來的立法者，這個要看情形，如果一模一樣，這個當然有拘束力；如果已經做了調整，跟原來的法規沒有一致性，就是已經改變了特殊的狀況，當然就可以重新釋憲，這個沒有問題。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我非常贊成您當時在大法官解釋效力的文章裡面所提到的，其實立法者也要與時俱進，能夠回應民意的需求來制定合理的法律條文，本來立法就有創造、補充、修正這樣一個機制，所以立法者基本上如果重新制定相同或者是類似的內容，在沒有人提出聲請釋憲、違憲的情況之前，它當然還是有效的，是吧？我說的應該沒有錯？"],["蕭文生被提名人：就是說……"],["翁委員曉玲：就算我們制定了相同的條文內容、制定了類似條文內容，但是在沒有人提起釋憲之前、被憲法法庭宣告違憲之前，這應該不構成違憲，仍然是產生拘束力的。"],["蕭文生被提名人：一個有效的法律沒有被解釋違憲之前，當然是有效的，謝謝。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝翁曉玲委員詢問，也謝謝被提名人蕭教授的說明。","登記第5位賴惠員委員之詢問以書面提出，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員賴惠員書面詢問：","蕭文生教授您好，根據簡歷以及口頭報告，除了教學及研究工作外，您也曾經擔任諸多中央及地方政府機關的訴願會與法規會委員，先感謝您為國家所做過的付出。但是身為立法委員，基於《中華民國憲法增修條文》第5條第1項規定之職權，必須請教您幾個問題，並根據回應來判斷您是否適任大法官這個職位。","一、113年憲判字第8號【死刑案】","1.對於「死刑」之見解？","有關死刑，大法官於司法院釋字第194號、釋字第263號解釋、釋字第476號解釋，乃至於去年憲法法庭113年憲判字第8號判決，皆認為死刑合憲。未來如有機會擔任大法官，再遇到同樣問題時，請教蕭教授個人認為死刑是否合憲？或者在甚麼樣的前提下，國家可以摒棄死刑此一種類的主刑？","2.「個案犯罪情節屬最嚴重」是否違反「明確性原則」？","憲法法庭113年憲判字第8號判決主文第一項說明：「……故意殺人罪係侵害生命權之最嚴重犯罪類型，其中以死刑為最重本刑部分，僅得適用於『個案犯罪情節屬最嚴重』，……」有關「個案犯罪情節屬最嚴重」之要件，113年憲判字第8號判決理由第72段至第82段固有說明。但是在民眾的想像中，行為人之犯罪行為只有「更壞」而無「最壞」，倘若犯罪情節更嚴重之情況發生，已死刑定讞之裁判應如何處理？於此脈絡下，「個案犯罪情節屬最嚴重」之要件是否有違反「明確性原則」之虞？未來如成為大法官，是否有把握讓一般民眾明確理解憲法法庭之裁判？","3.憲法法庭於【死刑案】創設要件是否已越俎代庖立法者？","憲法法庭113年憲判字第8號判決創設「個案犯罪情節屬最嚴重」、「接受訊問或詢問應有辯護人在場，並得為行為人陳述意見」、「第三審應強制辯護、言詞辯論」、「各級法院合議庭法官一致決」、「行為時、審判時精神障礙或心智缺陷致辨識能力降低不得科處死刑」、「心智缺陷不得執行死刑」等裁判及執行死刑之要件。惟，蕭教授於著作中說明，太過強調大法官解釋的拘束力，會變相剝奪立法者在憲法上的基本權限，大法官所享有的監督功能不能越俎代庖去替代立法者\n。以「各級法院合議庭法官一致決」為例，立法者本得以參照《憲法訴訟法》第80條第1項憲法法庭宣告政黨解散之評決門檻，修正《法院組織法》第105條規定死刑以三分之二以上同意為之，但憲法法庭直接要求「各級法院合議庭法官一致決」始能作成科處死刑之判決，如此有無違反權力分立？大法官與立法者在憲法上的功能與界線應如何劃分？","二、113年憲判字第9號【立法院職權行使法等案】之立法程序","憲法法庭去年作成113年憲判字第9號判決，主文第一項說明立法院於113年6月24日修正公布《立法院職權行使法》修正條文及《中華民國刑法》第141條之1規定，其立法程序「存有瑕疵」，但整體而言，尚難謂已完全悖離憲法「公開透明」與「討論原則」之要求，故修法有效，立法程序是否符合民意之要求與期待，仍應由人民於相關民主程序為民主問責之判斷。惟，許志雄大法官、黃昭元大法官、謝銘洋大法官以及尤伯祥大法官則持不同見解，認為立法程序有重大明顯瑕疵而違憲\n。請教蕭教授認為113年6月24日修正《立法院職權行使法》修正條文及《中華民國刑法》第141條之1之立法程序有無悖離憲法「公開透明」與「討論原則」之要求？倘若身為大法官之一員，是否會針對「立法程序」部分出具意見書？","三、修正《憲法訴訟法》之評析","立法院於113年12月20日修正《憲法訴訟法》，增訂第30條第2項前段規定，判決參與評議之大法官人數不得低於十人，後續大法官之人事同意權亦全數未通過，導致憲法法庭自從113年10月31日包含院長、副院長等7位大法官任期屆滿，至114年7月10日止，僅作成926件程序裁定，至於「判決」以及「實體裁定」則是掛零。如此大法官無法行使《中華民國憲法》第78條規定之「解釋憲法」之權，實際適用《憲法訴訟法》第30條第2項前段之結果，有無違反司法院釋字第632號解釋，應使維繫國家整體憲政體制之憲法機關正常運行之意旨？","四、不分區立法委員之罷免制度","依《公職人員選舉罷免法》第75條第2項規定：「全國不分區及僑居國外國民立法委員選舉之當選人，不適用罷免之規定。」該規定業經司法院釋字第331號解釋認為與憲法並無牴觸。惟，內政部於113年11月6日發布新聞說明：「統促黨系統犯罪逾百人，依法查處聲請解散」，乃我國首件政黨違憲解散案件，可知政黨並非全無違憲可能。倘若不分區立法委員違法亂紀，導致全國人民不滿，即可能受尚未被憲法法庭宣告解散之違憲政黨包庇，從而繼續行使立委職權。循此脈絡，《公職人員選舉罷免法》第75條第2項有無因違反責任政治，令人民無法行使《中華民國憲法》第17條規定之罷免權，而有被判決違憲之可能？司法院釋字第331號解釋有無隨時代、社會變遷而有變更或補充解釋之必要性？"],["主席：再接下來，我們請登記第6號陳菁徽委員詢問，何欣純委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":466,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳宗憲","麥玉珍","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","賴惠員","陳菁徽","何欣純","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳素月","林倩綺","鍾佳濱","徐欣瑩","張雅琳","蘇清泉","林憶君","林楚茵","陳永康","王美惠"],"page_start":365,"meetingDate":["2025-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1146501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146501_00006","1146501_00007","1146501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規\n定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並\n以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案","agenda_id":"1146501_00004"}}}