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{\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 381.422, \"end\": 381.982, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 381.982, \"end\": 382.362, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"價\"}, {\"word\": \"值\", \"start\": 382.362, \"end\": 382.542, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"秩\", \"start\": 382.542, \"end\": 382.723, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"序\", \"start\": 382.723, \"end\": 383.643, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"尊\", \"start\": 383.643, \"end\": 383.843, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 383.843, \"end\": 384.023, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 384.023, \"end\": 384.163, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 384.163, \"end\": 384.343, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 384.343, \"end\": 385.544, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 385.544, \"end\": 385.664, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 385.664, \"end\": 385.984, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 385.984, \"end\": 387.524, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"齁\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 387.524, \"end\": 387.885, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 387.885, \"end\": 388.205, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"禮\"}, {\"word\": \"拜\", \"start\": 388.205, \"end\": 388.645, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 388.645, \"end\": 388.945, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 388.945, \"end\": 389.825, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"普\", \"start\": 389.825, \"end\": 389.985, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"金\", \"start\": 389.985, \"end\": 390.005, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 390.005, \"end\": 390.145, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"吧\", \"start\": 390.145, \"end\": 390.165, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 393.292, \"end\": 400.5, \"text\": \"普發現金一萬元我相關的政黨人士說增加預算有違憲爭議因為憲法規定立法院審查預算不得為增加支出制提議當初行政院送出來是1100現在特別條例增加1350\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"普\", \"start\": 393.292, \"end\": 393.713, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"金\", \"start\": 393.713, \"end\": 393.833, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 393.833, \"end\": 394.113, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, {\"word\": \"元\", \"start\": 394.113, \"end\": 394.854, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 394.854, \"end\": 395.054, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 395.054, \"end\": 395.355, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 395.355, \"end\": 395.495, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 395.495, \"end\": 395.775, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 395.775, \"end\": 395.955, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"士\", \"start\": 395.955, \"end\": 396.316, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"增\", \"start\": 396.316, \"end\": 396.516, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 396.516, \"end\": 396.836, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 396.836, \"end\": 396.996, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 396.996, \"end\": 397.097, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"違\"}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"爭\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 397.097, \"end\": 397.157, \"score\": 0.654}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 397.157, \"end\": 397.297, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 397.297, \"end\": 397.317, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 397.317, \"end\": 397.337, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 397.337, \"end\": 397.357, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 397.357, \"end\": 397.497, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 397.497, \"end\": 397.517, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 397.517, \"end\": 397.537, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 397.537, \"end\": 397.577, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 397.577, \"end\": 397.617, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"增\", \"start\": 397.617, \"end\": 397.717, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 397.717, \"end\": 397.737, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"支\", \"start\": 397.737, \"end\": 397.757, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 397.757, \"end\": 397.777, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 397.777, \"end\": 397.877, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 397.877, \"end\": 397.958, \"score\": 0.738}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"初\", \"start\": 397.958, \"end\": 398.118, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 398.118, \"end\": 398.318, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 398.318, \"end\": 399.219, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 399.219, \"end\": 399.539, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"送\", \"start\": 399.539, \"end\": 399.699, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 399.699, \"end\": 399.779, \"score\": 0.646}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 399.779, \"end\": 399.9, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 399.9, \"end\": 399.98, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"特\", \"start\": 399.98, \"end\": 400.08, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"別\", \"start\": 400.08, \"end\": 400.22, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 400.22, \"end\": 400.38, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"增\", \"start\": 400.38, \"end\": 400.48, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 400.48, \"end\": 400.5, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}]}, {\"start\": 412.313, \"end\": 439.133, \"text\": \"那請問您是否認為立法委員可以提法律案為實質增加預算支出的提議並不違反憲法第70條的規定因為我們現在聽到普遍很多有一些這個府院相關一些或者學者有提到說這次通過這個普發一萬元是違反這個憲法第70條的這個規定那我想請問您認為說我們立法院立法委員可不可以提出法律案\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 412.313, \"end\": 413.254, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 413.254, \"end\": 413.434, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 413.434, \"end\": 413.574, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"否\", \"start\": 413.574, \"end\": 414.174, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 414.174, \"end\": 414.375, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 414.375, \"end\": 414.895, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 414.895, \"end\": 415.596, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 415.596, \"end\": 415.716, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 415.716, \"end\": 415.956, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 415.956, \"end\": 416.216, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": 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420.659, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 420.659, \"end\": 420.84, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 420.84, \"end\": 421.16, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 421.16, \"end\": 421.28, \"score\": 0.646}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 421.28, \"end\": 421.72, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 421.72, \"end\": 421.96, \"score\": 0.782}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 421.96, \"end\": 422.1, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 422.1, \"end\": 422.801, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 422.801, \"end\": 423.021, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"普\", \"start\": 423.021, \"end\": 423.181, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"遍\", \"start\": 423.181, \"end\": 423.361, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 423.361, \"end\": 423.502, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 423.502, \"end\": 423.842, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 423.842, \"end\": 423.982, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 423.982, \"end\": 424.062, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 424.062, \"end\": 425.143, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 425.143, \"end\": 425.263, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 425.263, \"end\": 425.543, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 425.543, \"end\": 425.823, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 425.823, \"end\": 425.883, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 425.883, \"end\": 426.184, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 426.184, \"end\": 426.304, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 426.304, \"end\": 426.644, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 426.644, \"end\": 426.884, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 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\"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 431.908, \"end\": 432.108, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 432.108, \"end\": 433.349, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 433.349, \"end\": 433.929, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 433.929, \"end\": 434.39, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 434.39, \"end\": 434.61, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 434.61, \"end\": 434.71, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 434.71, \"end\": 435.13, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 435.13, \"end\": 436.291, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 436.291, \"end\": 436.651, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 436.651, \"end\": 436.832, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 436.832, \"end\": 437.032, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 437.032, \"end\": 437.392, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 437.392, \"end\": 437.532, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 437.532, \"end\": 437.652, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 437.652, \"end\": 437.852, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 437.852, \"end\": 437.972, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 437.972, \"end\": 438.073, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 438.073, \"end\": 438.133, \"score\": 0.688}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 438.133, \"end\": 438.213, \"score\": 0.744}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 438.213, \"end\": 438.353, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 438.353, \"end\": 438.653, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 438.653, \"end\": 438.913, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"律\", \"start\": 438.913, \"end\": 439.113, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 439.113, \"end\": 439.133, \"score\": 0.388}]}, {\"start\": 440.114, \"end\": 467.235, \"text\": \"做這個實質增加預算增加的這個提議然後沒有違反憲法第70條的規定報告委員法律見解如何報告委員因為在520號解釋曾經也有過立法院認為這是通過的法律案但是呢有可能在520號4-520號是有關核四的問題那當時呢大法官當時行政院或立法院也都提到可能是重大政策\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 440.114, \"end\": 440.895, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"增\", \"start\": 440.895, \"end\": 441.035, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 441.035, \"end\": 441.655, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 441.655, \"end\": 441.895, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"增\", \"start\": 441.895, \"end\": 442.036, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 442.036, \"end\": 442.236, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 442.236, \"end\": 442.516, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 442.516, \"end\": 443.156, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": 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\"end\": 490.335, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"決\"}, {\"word\": \"尊\", \"start\": 490.335, \"end\": 490.515, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 490.515, \"end\": 490.735, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 490.735, \"end\": 490.936, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 490.936, \"end\": 491.136, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 491.136, \"end\": 491.536, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 491.536, \"end\": 491.756, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 491.756, \"end\": 491.896, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 491.896, \"end\": 492.036, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 492.036, \"end\": 492.117, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 492.117, \"end\": 492.137, \"score\": 0.482}, {\"word\": \"場\"}]}, {\"start\": 492.777, \"end\": 511.217, \"text\": \"那現在就是您回答很多但是沒有回答到這個問題喔這個行政院如果行政院有認為這是違反憲法第70條規定這個腐發先進意外但是立法院通過了如果你以後是要解釋當那個大法官是要解釋憲法那對於這個您明確的解釋是什麼\", \"words\": 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1003.723, \"end\": 1003.903, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"受\", \"start\": 1003.903, \"end\": 1004.043, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1004.043, \"end\": 1004.143, \"score\": 0.761}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 1004.143, \"end\": 1004.344, \"score\": 0.656}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 1004.344, \"end\": 1004.464, \"score\": 0.642}, {\"word\": \"吧\", \"start\": 1004.464, \"end\": 1004.484, \"score\": 0.638}]}, {\"start\": 1004.744, \"end\": 1032.161, \"text\": \"因為這不是法學者可以解決問題這是你以前的觀念你現在還是這樣的觀念嗎因為你認為中央和地方的財政法是立法委員的任務這沒問題從民意來講要有中央跟地方協力來處理第二個再加上財政學者相關的看法再提出建議來讓中央跟地方協力來解決您之前認為眾矢劃分不公也不是法學可以解決現在還是這樣想法嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 1004.744, \"end\": 1005.084, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1005.084, \"end\": 1005.164, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1005.164, \"end\": 1005.484, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 1005.484, \"end\": 1005.705, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": 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\"end\": 1029.359, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"眾\"}, {\"word\": \"矢\", \"start\": 1029.359, \"end\": 1029.719, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"劃\"}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 1029.719, \"end\": 1029.859, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1029.859, \"end\": 1029.979, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 1029.979, \"end\": 1030.159, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 1030.159, \"end\": 1030.259, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1030.259, \"end\": 1030.36, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1030.36, \"end\": 1030.5, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 1030.5, \"end\": 1030.64, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 1030.64, \"end\": 1030.8, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 1030.8, \"end\": 1030.9, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1030.9, \"end\": 1030.96, \"score\": 0.34}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 1030.96, \"end\": 1031.5, 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{\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 1051.801, \"end\": 1051.941, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 1051.941, \"end\": 1052.021, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"決\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 1052.021, \"end\": 1052.041, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"財\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 1052.041, \"end\": 1052.061, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 1052.061, \"end\": 1052.141, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 1052.141, \"end\": 1052.181, \"score\": 0.486}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1052.181, \"end\": 1052.201, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"對\"}]}, {\"start\": 1054.844, \"end\": 1070.626, \"text\": \"但是法院可以請鑑定人 但是可以請鑑定人可以請鑑定人 財政學的學者專家鑑定人如果大法官提名人數夠的時候 這事件怎麼受理呢這不是法學可以解決問題 你還是會不會是這樣的想法嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 1054.844, \"end\": 1055.004, 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00:00:48,030\n在看這個總統府送過來的這個簡歷還有您剛剛的這個口頭自傳的報告裡頭本席覺得您是一位這個理論與這個實務經驗兼具的是我們這個法學界法律界的一時之選在看著你的簡歷後我想這是您第三次到這個立法院來接受這個被提名就是同意權的行使對吧\n\n3\n00:00:55,641 --> 00:01:14,769\n我們先來看看您過往的成績單2017年的時候蔡總統提名您擔任第12屆考試委員那時候提名的新聞稿有提到為了配合年金改革的步伐多項重要年金改革的方案要交由考試院研擬\n\n4\n00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:35,512\n到了2020年5月的時候再度提名您擔任考試院第13屆考試委員裡面提到的是說您原來在12屆的考試委員任內有推動年改及相關考學制度的研議是熟悉考試院職人考量續任有助於經驗傳承\n\n5\n00:01:37,313 --> 00:02:03,184\n這是前兩次提名的相關的理由第一這一次我們賴總統提名您擔任司法院大法官這一次的新聞稿是說您擔任考試委員的時候對推動年金改革退府新制左右貢獻這個是這次的提名所以您在自傳中也有提到說您擔任考試委員的時候是以推動年金改革為己任對吧\n\n6\n00:02:03,860 --> 00:02:12,247\n是那請問您擔任考試委員的時候就是已經就是那個時候您有完成當時蔡總統交付的任務嗎您認為呢\n\n7\n00:02:14,822 --> 00:02:33,961\n報告委員基本上年金改革是考試院有幾任的院長都有這樣子的一個期待只是各黨針對部分的意見不同譬如說所得替代率或者相關的一些配套措施\n\n8\n00:02:34,662 --> 00:02:54,481\n所以基本上年輕改革這件事是應該在當時因為當時還沒有民眾黨所以在是國民黨跟民進黨在黨團都或者是立法院跟都共同的共識在這種情形之下呢我覺得我有部分達成有部分沒有達成\n\n9\n00:02:55,382 --> 00:03:18,021\n那您的這個您的自傳裡頭也有提到齁這個對立法院齁就這個有關年金改革這個退伏三法齁這個對考試院通過的部分立法院對考試院通過的部分條件有不同意見最後依立法院修正條文通過是所以您剛解釋的吧是所以您在考試院的院會裡頭齁在考試院第十二屆一百三十六次會議裡頭齁您這個捍衛您當時的說法是齁這個這個有書寫的齁這個呃\n\n10\n00:03:23,365 --> 00:03:49,525\n民主國家所有重要事項必須經由國會做最後決議因此立法過程中所以部長身為考試院的全序部長但是對於立法院最後決議不僅全序部長要尊重本院議欄所以您是相當尊重這個立法院我們國會的這個立法權聽起來是這樣是沒錯那第137次會議您也有提到在提到這個這個\n\n11\n00:03:52,240 --> 00:04:17,283\n從年改迄今很多法案都是透過立法院提案通過這是立法委員的限定執掌造成略過其他憲政機關權責的問題形式上無法苛責行政院此為立法委員的行為屬於目前責任政治及政黨政治運作的結果這些都是您說過的是所以在擔任考試委員期間您相當尊重立法院的立法行政權尊重國會的意見\n\n12\n00:04:18,624 --> 00:04:22,724\n您請問現在是抱持同樣的想法嗎\n\n13\n00:04:24,724 --> 00:04:48,578\n報告委員我想法一貫不只是從考試委員從以前擔任學者基本上就認為立法院是最高民意機關應該要予以尊重很好那我們期許您擔任大法官一樣有這樣的風格那我想請教您幾個議題我們立法院之前三讀通過提高警消海巡退休所得替代率\n\n14\n00:04:50,219 --> 00:04:59,004\n這個您知道有三讀通過那請問對於這個所得替代這個您是會尊重我們立法院所通過的這個立法者形成的這個空間還是會認為說連改不應該走回頭路\n\n15\n00:05:02,610 --> 00:05:29,729\n如果作為一個被提名人的話我們尊重我絕對尊重立法院所做的這樣子的一個立法通過但是中間相關的過程當然是由立法院內部形成的這個共識所做成的已經共識啦三讀已經通過了所以會尊重立法院的這個職權啦尊重OK好謝謝您齁那這個這是錦霄這個齁錦霄的這個部分前面這個是錦霄海巡喔\n\n16\n00:05:30,109 --> 00:05:53,958\n那還沒有修改的也有可能修改是我們公教人所呼籲的要停侃退休金彈性調整所得替代率這個七大公教團體要說希望要停侃所得替代率這個部分退休金的這個部分那如果到時候這個部分在經過立法院的修改又三讀通過了這個所得替代率又有所改變的時候請問您到時候會尊重立法院立法者的這個\n\n17\n00:05:54,858 --> 00:05:59,025\n立法行政過程就尊重我們國會的這個權利呢還是還是會認為說不應該這個走回頭路\n\n18\n00:06:02,955 --> 00:06:30,165\n基本上在憲法秩序下依據憲法相關的規定跟憲法價值內容我是尊重立法院的所以不管您是擔任學者或是以後擔任這個大法官的話您都會這個尊重立法院所三讀通過這個法律案嗎是就是在憲法價值秩序內尊重立法院那想請教齁這個我們上個禮拜剛剛通過一個普發現金條例對吧\n\n19\n00:06:33,292 --> 00:06:40,500\n普發現金一萬元我相關的政黨人士說增加預算有違憲爭議因為憲法規定立法院審查預算不得為增加支出制提議當初行政院送出來是1100現在特別條例增加1350\n\n20\n00:06:52,313 --> 00:07:19,133\n那請問您是否認為立法委員可以提法律案為實質增加預算支出的提議並不違反憲法第70條的規定因為我們現在聽到普遍很多有一些這個府院相關一些或者學者有提到說這次通過這個普發一萬元是違反這個憲法第70條的這個規定那我想請問您認為說我們立法院立法委員可不可以提出法律案\n\n21\n00:07:20,114 --> 00:07:47,235\n做這個實質增加預算增加的這個提議然後沒有違反憲法第70條的規定報告委員法律見解如何報告委員因為在520號解釋曾經也有過立法院認為這是通過的法律案但是呢有可能在520號4-520號是有關核四的問題那當時呢大法官當時行政院或立法院也都提到可能是重大政策\n\n22\n00:07:48,616 --> 00:08:12,137\n因為是法律案跟或者是重大政策或預算案有爭執的時候大法官520號解釋就提供一個解決的方法就是憲法裡面有關行政立法互動的一個政治爭議的解決模式應該在這個憲法框架裡面行政跟立法可以去做這個框架的解決至於怎麼解決尊重大院跟行政院的立場\n\n23\n00:08:12,777 --> 00:08:31,217\n那現在就是您回答很多但是沒有回答到這個問題喔這個行政院如果行政院有認為這是違反憲法第70條規定這個腐發先進意外但是立法院通過了如果你以後是要解釋當那個大法官是要解釋憲法那對於這個您明確的解釋是什麼\n\n24\n00:08:32,506 --> 00:08:46,474\n報告委員剛才已經跟委員你講了很多你覺得有違反嗎就告訴我有沒有違反基本上這是兩院之間有沒有違反憲法第七十條的規定中間中間這個都可以我會讀啊但是有沒有違反憲法第七十條的規定這個普發現金一萬元\n\n25\n00:08:48,935 --> 00:09:00,588\n因為法院主張是預算法律案然後行政院認為這是預算案行政院認為是預算案嗎?行政院認為是法律裡面有涉及到實質的預算編列是不是?\n\n26\n00:09:03,732 --> 00:09:27,973\n你認為這個是法律案?那請問這個是法律案還是預算案?這個特別條例這個就是有爭議行政立法這件事有爭議對有爭議謝謝教授我知道您的答案你認為有爭議你說行政立法是預算案我們認為是法律案我們認為是法律案因為是特別條例行政院是認為這是涉及預算案但是你身為大法官的被提名你認為說這個是有爭議的\n\n27\n00:09:29,835 --> 00:09:35,459\n你認為國會在行使預決簽的時候有沒有積極引導政府政策的作用立法院在通過預算也有積極引導政府預算的作用嗎\n\n28\n00:09:50,033 --> 00:10:16,808\n導正但是憲法70條有明文規定因為剛才委員是講預算所以我才會講到說70條那法律案的話70條是預算嘛是法律案嘛那對於說這是預算還是法律案你認為也有爭議兩院有爭議兩院有爭議司法院怎麼認為呢司法院520號就曾經有做過解釋可以循憲法徵修條文第三條有關兩院的政治爭議解決模式去處理\n\n29\n00:10:18,028 --> 00:10:40,461\n陳教授剛剛您在提到連改的時候我是蠻肯定的因為您說您會尊重立法院的立法形成權就是跟您以前的學說一以貫之就是說即便您擔任大法官還是保有原來擔任教授的風骨但是現在在提到憲法70條這一條的時候您的說法似乎跟您當初擔任學者的時候不大一樣我想請教您1996有一篇\n\n30\n00:10:43,854 --> 00:11:07,021\n您看一下喔平溪大法官釋字391號解釋文這一個我沒有看到你的簡歷沒有在你的簡歷裡頭啊是為什麼這一篇文章怎麼沒有在你的簡歷裡頭有啊有有在我的簡歷裡頭簡歷它可能沒有附上來但是在我這一篇文章是在那個剛才所報告的專書論文集裡面專書論文裡頭喔但是我們上去搜尋喔這個\n\n31\n00:11:09,422 --> 00:11:32,557\n上網去搜尋,上網搜尋是沒有辦法讓公眾來閱讀,是沒有公開有公開,上網搜尋應該書上,報告委員,書有可以在書局找得到因為上網搜尋是沒有搜尋,沒關係那我想請教您,這篇文章您的陳述關聯您還記得嗎我記得\n\n32\n00:11:35,319 --> 00:12:03,145\n我對於大法官釋字391號的解釋對於他這個有些部分有不同的意見對您說的這一條裡頭您特別說的我來跟您回憶一下這是您說過的話預算額度修正權僅限於否決或刪減預算此一見解過於狹隘不符合國會在預算預決形式上對行政權有優勢地位之本質\n\n33\n00:12:04,565 --> 00:12:25,334\n第二個縱使立法院不在預算案中做成增加預算支出之決議亦可另提法律案為實質增加預算支出之決議這是您說過的話吧沒錯吧所以說不管它是法律案預算案上是不行但是行政課我們的差別是他說它是預算案您的說法是您以前當學者說法\n\n34\n00:12:27,836 --> 00:12:45,295\n縱使就是不在預算案題也可以另提法例案像這個特別條例就是法例案就算維生實質你還認為說可以實質增加預算支出之提議這是你的說法沒錯吧這是我當學者的說法你當學者的說法當當法官想法會不一樣我跟委員報告一件事情\n\n35\n00:12:46,556 --> 00:13:14,872\n還有下一句下一句因此憲法第70條對立法院審議預算預決權的限制規定實質上並未具有重大意義你覺得70條是沒有重大意義的國會在行使預算預決權時亦有其積極引導政府政策之作用70條沒有提到這都是你說的話經由國會地勤以來選傳播媒體監督也可以達到實質監控立法院行使預算審查決議權所以70條可以做適度的鬆綁這都是您之前擔任寫者的這個意見吧\n\n36\n00:13:17,049 --> 00:13:22,102\n是但是報告我七十條是憲法修法是要大院的職權\n\n37\n00:13:25,205 --> 00:13:50,814\n我們不在說修那個法我們在說您當時對這個立法院和立法權和行政權說這個國會有這個優勢嘛報告委員我可不可以報告兩點第一個70條我說要修但是是大院的職權我現在不是要提要修我修的說在現在以昨天禮拜五剛剛通過的那個法那個法令那裡頭有沒有這個爭執啊對你以前的看法我是因為你以前擔任學者的時候的看法來跟您討論這件事情第二點我跟委員報告\n\n38\n00:13:53,795 --> 00:13:57,779\n我沒有說我脫離我學者想法是一致的但是我基本上尊重大院的做法\n\n39\n00:14:17,074 --> 00:14:29,239\n就是尊重立法院的決議就對了所以覺得這個在這個在這個我們跟這一次這個普拉現金一萬塊的這個憲法您是還是跟您以前想法一樣嗎因為這個憲法行政院雖然說憲法70條但這不是適用憲法70條你還是覺得這個憲法70條我認為憲法70條可以修改但是大院的職權\n\n40\n00:14:37,642 --> 00:14:58,942\nOK好謝謝您啦至少我認為您在擔任這個學者的時候剛剛我問的連改的部分尊重立法院的立法權還有這個就是70條的這個部分憲法70條這個我們通過這個普法宣言的法律案那個預算的跟行政想法不一樣立法權有優勢的這個地方您的想法應該是學術想法應該是沒有改變的\n\n41\n00:15:00,042 --> 00:15:11,711\n這一點跟您肯定那我再想跟您請教也是很重要的一點就是中央和地方財政權的劃分您一樣寫過一篇觀點是從我國實證憲法論中央與地方財政權的劃分你還記得你說過什麼嗎這個中央和地方財政權\n\n42\n00:15:17,512 --> 00:15:39,691\n這垂直權利分立嘛來我來幫您整理一下您說過國家財政權在行使與分配上在核心性無異體框架的財政學者這個是財政學者和實務運作者的任務接著您又說到說這個財政學者可能劃分不公這個原則仍然符合憲法上所要求的軍權體制不公也不是法學可以解決的\n\n43\n00:15:41,112 --> 00:16:02,668\n第三個你說這個可能會產生重中央忽略地方這種劃分方法讓地方有什麼參與群要思考憲政的問題所以這個結論就是說這個財政行使案分配是憲法抉擇和實務運作者我想實務的運作者應該指的就是立法院這邊是我們這邊的任務吧實務運作者我的看法是中央跟地方應該協力\n\n44\n00:16:04,489 --> 00:16:26,162\n然後第二個有關這個怎麼劃分比如說以前是中央比較多嘛那你認為這個雖然劃分不公啦不管中央多地方多因為中央可能多地方也可能多劃分不公但是這個也不是法學可以解決的嘛這是您之前提到的所以這個不是法律可以解釋的嘛這個雖然可能會出現中央多或者我們這次修過以後地方多一點還是中央多\n\n45\n00:16:26,602 --> 00:16:44,484\n但是這些都不是法學可以解決的要用財政學的用實務來做規劃嘛沒錯吧所以這根本就不是大法官可以解決的東西嘛不是大法官可以解釋的東西嘛所以這個財政訴訟送到司法院憲法法庭的時候應該就是不是憲法法庭可以接受的案子吧\n\n46\n00:16:44,744 --> 00:17:12,161\n因為這不是法學者可以解決問題這是你以前的觀念你現在還是這樣的觀念嗎因為你認為中央和地方的財政法是立法委員的任務這沒問題從民意來講要有中央跟地方協力來處理第二個再加上財政學者相關的看法再提出建議來讓中央跟地方協力來解決您之前認為眾矢劃分不公也不是法學可以解決現在還是這樣想法嗎\n\n47\n00:17:14,242 --> 00:17:32,201\n因為財政的預算那些內容非常精算的部分這個不是法學可以解決的嘛但是如果專業的話可以補充的話由專業來補充由財政學者來處理但是這個東西如果要拿去釋憲財政說法去釋憲的話這就不能受理啊因為法學界並不能解決這個實務上這個財政這些問題嘛對不對\n\n48\n00:17:34,844 --> 00:17:50,626\n但是法院可以請鑑定人但是可以請鑑定人可以請鑑定人財政學的學者專家鑑定人如果大法官提名人數夠的時候這事件怎麼受理呢這不是法學可以解決問題你還是會不會是這樣的想法嗎\n\n49\n00:17:51,803 --> 00:18:14,534\n是,但是可以由鑑定人才證明因為時間很短,我現在再問一題因為您剛有特別提到我們離島,我要特別跟您感謝但是我想請教你這一題,您當年考試委員的時候109到113年,發言次數比例分別是65、39、20就11次、20次、10次,最後兩年是7次、7次是不是因為那時候年改任務已經了,所以後來什麼業務都不大需要說了你後面兩年,發言的次數相當的少,只剩下7次\n\n50\n00:18:17,796 --> 00:18:19,979\n52場宴會裡頭您只發言了7次32場也只發言了7次是因為業務已經沒有了的關係嗎\n\n51\n00:18:25,409 --> 00:18:45,737\n所以就沒有需要再關心其他的事情很多政務不是在院會裡面院會大概就是已經做了大家有共識的來做成解決那我想請問您剛剛所提到剛剛您在口頭報告我看書院報告沒有但口頭報告有特別提到有關離島的這個部分您知道我是來自離島金門就專門我們離島地區這個特考這個規劃這個考試院有開會吧\n\n52\n00:18:52,379 --> 00:18:56,565\n是那大家也都是有共識嘛對不對對大家有共識在考試院第13屆第138次會議裡頭是其中有9位考試委員這個有\n\n53\n00:19:03,001 --> 00:19:30,699\n有八位考試委員發言支持或是發言建議你知道嗎是九位裡面有八位發言哪一位沒有發言報告委員因為之前已經跟考選部溝通而且是我全力贊成的所以我認為基本上我已經贊成了不需要任何的時間所以沒有在這個離島特考裡頭因為您剛剛有說這是考試院您的算是公積但這個離島這個特考的這個業務裡頭唯一九位考試委員唯一沒有發言是我們陳子洋教授\n\n54\n00:19:31,852 --> 00:19:46,589\n你是對我們離島失誤因為很贊成所以不用發言是吧報告委員委員的政治歷練非常的豐厚知道很多都是事前大家的溝通協調所以其他八個發言都是因為不贊成所以來協調是嗎不是不是不是是因為\n\n55\n00:19:47,330 --> 00:20:10,839\n我在很多問題都在第一屆都已經全部說過了不希望浪費院會的時間所以九位委員有八位委員發言有點浪費時間九位只有您沒有發言耶您就跟我說您剛才在口頭包特別跟我說檢視理導者和這個議員九位委員裡面有兩位是已經這個續任過的然後七位沒有續任所以我們希望讓兩位續任不再發言但另外一位也發了言\n\n56\n00:20:11,259 --> 00:20:22,807\n沒關係沒有發言因為表示您的至少這個也是通過我們是跟您表示感謝所以不發言有時候會表示那因為時間到我們還有其他的希望如果您有興同過這個提問維持一樣的風骨\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8424\t9648\t謝謝主席有請我們這個陳教授備題門人請備題門人\n24398\t48030\t在看這個總統府送過來的這個簡歷還有您剛剛的這個口頭自傳的報告裡頭本席覺得您是一位這個理論與這個實務經驗兼具的是我們這個法學界法律界的一時之選在看著你的簡歷後我想這是您第三次到這個立法院來接受這個被提名就是同意權的行使對吧\n55641\t74769\t我們先來看看您過往的成績單2017年的時候蔡總統提名您擔任第12屆考試委員那時候提名的新聞稿有提到為了配合年金改革的步伐多項重要年金改革的方案要交由考試院研擬\n76360\t95512\t到了2020年5月的時候再度提名您擔任考試院第13屆考試委員裡面提到的是說您原來在12屆的考試委員任內有推動年改及相關考學制度的研議是熟悉考試院職人考量續任有助於經驗傳承\n97313\t123184\t這是前兩次提名的相關的理由第一 這一次我們賴總統提名您擔任司法院大法官這一次的新聞稿是說您擔任考試委員的時候對推動年金改革退府新制左右貢獻這個是這次的提名所以您在自傳中也有提到說您擔任考試委員的時候是以推動年金改革為己任 對吧\n123860\t132247\t是那請問您擔任考試委員的時候就是已經就是那個時候您有完成當時蔡總統交付的任務嗎 您認為呢\n134822\t153961\t報告委員基本上年金改革是考試院有幾任的院長都有這樣子的一個期待只是各黨針對部分的意見不同譬如說所得替代率或者相關的一些配套措施\n154662\t174481\t所以基本上年輕改革這件事是應該在當時因為當時還沒有民眾黨所以在是國民黨跟民進黨在黨團都或者是立法院跟都共同的共識在這種情形之下呢我覺得我有部分達成有部分沒有達成\n175382\t198021\t那您的這個您的自傳裡頭也有提到齁這個對立法院齁就這個有關年金改革這個退伏三法齁這個對考試院通過的部分立法院對考試院通過的部分條件有不同意見最後依立法院修正條文通過是所以您剛解釋的吧是所以您在考試院的院會裡頭齁在考試院第十二屆一百三十六次會議裡頭齁您這個捍衛您當時的說法是齁這個這個有書寫的齁這個呃\n203365\t229525\t民主國家所有重要事項必須經由國會做最後決議因此立法過程中所以部長身為考試院的全序部長但是對於立法院最後決議不僅全序部長要尊重本院議欄所以您是相當尊重這個立法院我們國會的這個立法權聽起來是這樣是沒錯那第137次會議您也有提到在提到這個這個\n232240\t257283\t從年改迄今很多法案都是透過立法院提案通過這是立法委員的限定執掌造成略過其他憲政機關權責的問題形式上無法苛責行政院此為立法委員的行為屬於目前責任政治及政黨政治運作的結果這些都是您說過的是所以在擔任考試委員期間您相當尊重立法院的立法行政權尊重國會的意見\n258624\t262724\t您請問現在是抱持同樣的想法嗎\n264724\t288578\t報告委員 我想法一貫不只是從考試委員從以前擔任學者基本上就認為立法院是最高民意機關應該要予以尊重很好 那我們期許您擔任大法官一樣有這樣的風格那我想請教您幾個議題我們立法院之前三讀通過提高警消海巡退休所得替代率\n290219\t299004\t這個您知道有三讀通過那請問對於這個所得替代這個您是會尊重我們立法院所通過的這個立法者形成的這個空間還是會認為說連改不應該走回頭路\n302610\t329729\t如果作為一個被提名人的話我們尊重我絕對尊重立法院所做的這樣子的一個立法通過但是中間相關的過程當然是由立法院內部形成的這個共識所做成的已經共識啦 三讀已經通過了所以會尊重立法院的這個職權啦尊重OK 好 謝謝您齁那這個這是錦霄這個齁 錦霄的這個部分前面這個是錦霄海巡喔\n330109\t353958\t那還沒有修改的也有可能修改是我們公教人所呼籲的要停侃退休金彈性調整所得替代率這個七大公教團體要說希望要停侃所得替代率這個部分 退休金的這個部分那如果到時候這個部分在經過立法院的修改又三讀通過了這個所得替代率又有所改變的時候請問您到時候會尊重立法院立法者的這個\n354858\t359025\t立法行政過程就尊重我們國會的這個權利呢還是還是會認為說不應該這個走回頭路\n362955\t390165\t基本上在憲法秩序下依據憲法相關的規定跟憲法價值內容我是尊重立法院的所以不管您是擔任學者或是以後擔任這個大法官的話您都會這個尊重立法院所三讀通過這個法律案嗎是就是在憲法價值秩序內尊重立法院那想請教齁這個我們上個禮拜剛剛通過一個普發現金條例對吧\n393292\t400500\t普發現金一萬元我相關的政黨人士說增加預算有違憲爭議因為憲法規定立法院審查預算不得為增加支出制提議當初行政院送出來是1100現在特別條例增加1350\n412313\t439133\t那請問您是否認為立法委員可以提法律案為實質增加預算支出的提議並不違反憲法第70條的規定因為我們現在聽到普遍很多有一些這個府院相關一些或者學者有提到說這次通過這個普發一萬元是違反這個憲法第70條的這個規定那我想請問您認為說我們立法院立法委員可不可以提出法律案\n440114\t467235\t做這個實質增加預算增加的這個提議然後沒有違反憲法第70條的規定報告委員法律見解如何報告委員因為在520號解釋曾經也有過立法院認為這是通過的法律案但是呢有可能在520號4-520號是有關核四的問題那當時呢大法官當時行政院或立法院也都提到可能是重大政策\n468616\t492137\t因為是法律案跟或者是重大政策或預算案有爭執的時候大法官520號解釋就提供一個解決的方法就是憲法裡面有關行政立法互動的一個政治爭議的解決模式應該在這個憲法框架裡面行政跟立法可以去做這個框架的解決至於怎麼解決尊重大院跟行政院的立場\n492777\t511217\t那現在就是您回答很多但是沒有回答到這個問題喔這個行政院如果行政院有認為這是違反憲法第70條規定這個腐發先進意外但是立法院通過了如果你以後是要解釋當那個大法官是要解釋憲法那對於這個您明確的解釋是什麼\n512506\t526474\t報告委員 剛才已經跟委員你講了很多 你覺得有違反嗎就告訴我有沒有違反基本上這是兩院之間有沒有違反憲法第七十條的規定中間中間這個都可以 我會讀啊但是有沒有違反憲法第七十條的規定這個普發現金一萬元\n528935\t540588\t因為法院主張是預算 法律案然後行政院認為這是預算案行政院認為是預算案嗎?行政院認為是法律裡面有涉及到實質的預算編列是不是?\n543732\t567973\t你認為這個是法律案?那請問這個是法律案還是預算案?這個特別條例這個就是有爭議行政立法這件事有爭議對有爭議謝謝教授我知道您的答案你認為有爭議你說行政立法是預算案我們認為是法律案我們認為是法律案因為是特別條例行政院是認為這是涉及預算案但是你身為大法官的被提名你認為說這個是有爭議的\n569835\t575459\t你認為國會在行使預決簽的時候有沒有積極引導政府政策的作用立法院在通過預算也有積極引導政府預算的作用嗎\n590033\t616808\t導正 但是憲法70條有明文規定因為剛才委員是講預算所以我才會講到說70條那法律案的話70條是預算嘛是法律案嘛那對於說這是預算還是法律案你認為也有爭議兩院有爭議兩院有爭議 司法院怎麼認為呢司法院520號就曾經有做過解釋可以循憲法徵修條文第三條有關兩院的政治爭議解決模式去處理\n618028\t640461\t陳教授 剛剛您在提到連改的時候我是蠻肯定的因為您說您會尊重立法院的立法形成權就是跟您以前的學說一以貫之就是說即便您擔任大法官還是保有原來擔任教授的風骨但是現在在提到憲法70條這一條的時候您的說法似乎跟您當初擔任學者的時候不大一樣我想請教您1996有一篇\n643854\t667021\t您看一下喔 平溪大法官釋字391號解釋文這一個我沒有看到你的簡歷 沒有在你的簡歷裡頭啊是為什麼這一篇文章怎麼沒有在你的簡歷裡頭有啊 有有在我的簡歷裡頭簡歷它可能沒有附上來但是在我這一篇文章是在那個剛才所報告的專書論文集裡面專書論文裡頭喔 但是我們上去搜尋喔這個\n669422\t692557\t上網去搜尋,上網搜尋是沒有辦法讓公眾來閱讀,是沒有公開有公開,上網搜尋應該書上,報告委員,書有可以在書局找得到因為上網搜尋是沒有搜尋,沒關係那我想請教您,這篇文章您的陳述關聯您還記得嗎我記得\n695319\t723145\t我對於大法官釋字391號的解釋對於他這個有些部分有不同的意見對 您說的這一條裡頭您特別說的我來跟您回憶一下這是您說過的話預算額度修正權僅限於否決或刪減預算此一見解過於狹隘不符合國會在預算預決形式上對行政權有優勢地位之本質\n724565\t745334\t第二個 縱使立法院不在預算案中做成增加預算支出之決議亦可另提法律案為實質增加預算支出之決議這是您說過的話吧 沒錯吧所以說不管它是法律案 預算案上是不行但是行政課我們的差別是 他說它是預算案您的說法是 您以前當學者說法\n747836\t765295\t縱使就是不在預算案題也可以另提法例案像這個特別條例就是法例案就算維生實質你還認為說可以實質增加預算支出之提議這是你的說法沒錯吧這是我當學者的說法你當學者的說法當當法官想法會不一樣我跟委員報告一件事情\n766556\t794872\t還有下一句 下一句因此憲法第70條對立法院審議預算預決權的限制規定實質上並未具有重大意義你覺得70條是沒有重大意義的國會在行使預算預決權時亦有其積極引導政府政策之作用70條沒有提到 這都是你說的話經由國會地勤以來選 傳播媒體監督也可以達到實質監控立法院行使預算審查決議權所以70條可以做適度的鬆綁這都是您之前擔任寫者的這個意見吧\n797049\t802102\t是 但是報告我七十條是憲法修法是要大院的職權\n805205\t830814\t我們不在說修那個法我們在說您當時對這個立法院和立法權和行政權說這個國會有這個優勢嘛報告委員我可不可以報告兩點第一個70條我說要修但是是大院的職權我現在不是要提要修我修的說在現在以昨天禮拜五剛剛通過的那個法那個法令那裡頭有沒有這個爭執啊對你以前的看法我是因為你以前擔任學者的時候的看法來跟您討論這件事情第二點我跟委員報告\n833795\t837779\t我沒有說我脫離我學者想法是一致的但是我基本上尊重大院的做法\n857074\t869239\t就是尊重立法院的決議就對了所以覺得這個在這個在這個我們跟這一次這個普拉現金一萬塊的這個憲法您是還是跟您以前想法一樣嗎因為這個憲法行政院雖然說憲法70條但這不是適用憲法70條你還是覺得這個憲法70條我認為憲法70條可以修改但是大院的職權\n877642\t898942\tOK 好 謝謝您啦至少我認為您在擔任這個學者的時候剛剛我問的連改的部分尊重立法院的立法權還有這個就是70條的這個部分憲法70條這個我們通過這個普法宣言的法律案那個預算的跟行政想法不一樣立法權有優勢的這個地方您的想法應該是學術想法應該是沒有改變的\n900042\t911711\t這一點跟您肯定那我再想跟您請教也是很重要的一點就是中央和地方財政權的劃分您一樣寫過一篇觀點是從我國實證憲法論中央與地方財政權的劃分你還記得你說過什麼嗎這個中央和地方財政權\n917512\t939691\t這垂直權利分立嘛來 我來幫您整理一下您說過 國家財政權在行使與分配上在核心性無異體框架的財政學者這個是財政學者和實務運作者的任務接著您又說到說這個財政學者可能劃分不公這個原則仍然符合憲法上所要求的軍權體制不公也不是法學可以解決的\n941112\t962668\t第三個你說這個可能會產生重中央忽略地方這種劃分方法讓地方有什麼參與群要思考憲政的問題所以這個結論就是說這個財政行使案分配是憲法抉擇和實務運作者我想實務的運作者應該指的就是立法院這邊是我們這邊的任務吧實務運作者我的看法是中央跟地方應該協力\n964489\t986162\t然後第二個有關這個怎麼劃分 比如說以前是中央比較多嘛那你認為這個雖然劃分不公啦 不管中央多地方多因為中央可能多 地方也可能多 劃分不公但是這個也不是法學可以解決的嘛 這是您之前提到的所以這個不是法律可以解釋的嘛這個雖然可能會出現中央多 或者我們這次修過以後地方多一點 還是中央多\n986602\t1004484\t但是這些都不是法學可以解決的要用財政學的用實務來做規劃嘛沒錯吧所以這根本就不是大法官可以解決的東西嘛不是大法官可以解釋的東西嘛所以這個財政訴訟送到司法院憲法法庭的時候應該就是不是憲法法庭可以接受的案子吧\n1004744\t1032161\t因為這不是法學者可以解決問題這是你以前的觀念你現在還是這樣的觀念嗎因為你認為中央和地方的財政法是立法委員的任務這沒問題從民意來講要有中央跟地方協力來處理第二個再加上財政學者相關的看法再提出建議來讓中央跟地方協力來解決您之前認為眾矢劃分不公也不是法學可以解決現在還是這樣想法嗎\n1034242\t1052201\t因為財政的預算那些內容非常精算的部分這個不是法學可以解決的嘛但是如果專業的話可以補充的話由專業來補充 由財政學者來處理但是這個東西如果要拿去釋憲 財政說法去釋憲的話這就不能受理啊因為法學界並不能解決這個實務上這個財政這些問題嘛 對不對\n1054844\t1070626\t但是法院可以請鑑定人 但是可以請鑑定人可以請鑑定人 財政學的學者專家鑑定人如果大法官提名人數夠的時候 這事件怎麼受理呢這不是法學可以解決問題 你還是會不會是這樣的想法嗎\n1071803\t1094534\t是,但是可以由鑑定人才證明因為時間很短,我現在再問一題因為您剛有特別提到我們離島,我要特別跟您感謝但是我想請教你這一題,您當年考試委員的時候109到113年,發言次數比例分別是65、39、20就11次、20次、10次,最後兩年是7次、7次是不是因為那時候年改任務已經了,所以後來什麼業務都不大需要說了你後面兩年,發言的次數相當的少,只剩下7次\n1097796\t1099979\t52場宴會裡頭您只發言了7次32場也只發言了7次是因為業務已經沒有了的關係嗎\n1105409\t1125737\t所以就沒有需要再關心其他的事情很多政務不是在院會裡面院會大概就是已經做了大家有共識的來做成解決那我想請問您剛剛所提到剛剛您在口頭報告我看書院報告沒有但口頭報告有特別提到有關離島的這個部分您知道我是來自離島金門就專門我們離島地區這個特考這個規劃這個考試院有開會吧\n1132379\t1136565\t是那大家也都是有共識嘛對不對對 大家有共識在考試院第13屆第138次會議裡頭是其中有9位考試委員這個有\n1143001\t1170699\t有八位考試委員發言支持或是發言建議 你知道嗎是九位裡面有八位發言 哪一位沒有發言報告委員 因為之前已經跟考選部溝通而且是我全力贊成的所以我認為基本上我已經贊成了不需要任何的時間所以沒有 在這個離島特考裡頭因為您剛剛有說這是考試院 您的算是公積但這個離島這個特考的這個業務裡頭唯一九位考試委員唯一沒有發言是我們陳子洋教授\n1171852\t1186589\t你是對我們離島失誤因為很贊成所以不用發言是吧報告委員委員的政治歷練非常的豐厚知道很多都是事前大家的溝通協調所以其他八個發言都是因為不贊成所以來協調是嗎不是不是不是是因為\n1187330\t1210839\t我在很多問題都在第一屆都已經全部說過了不希望浪費院會的時間所以九位委員有八位委員發言有點浪費時間九位只有您沒有發言耶您就跟我說您剛才在口頭包特別跟我說檢視理導者和這個議員九位委員裡面有兩位是已經這個續任過的然後七位沒有續任所以我們希望讓兩位續任不再發言但另外一位也發了言\n1211259\t1222807\t沒關係沒有發言因為表示您的至少這個也是通過我們是跟您表示感謝所以不發言有時候會表示那因為時間到我們還有其他的希望如果您有興同過這個提問維持一樣的風骨\n","txt":"謝謝主席有請我們這個陳教授備題門人請備題門人\n在看這個總統府送過來的這個簡歷還有您剛剛的這個口頭自傳的報告裡頭本席覺得您是一位這個理論與這個實務經驗兼具的是我們這個法學界法律界的一時之選在看著你的簡歷後我想這是您第三次到這個立法院來接受這個被提名就是同意權的行使對吧\n我們先來看看您過往的成績單2017年的時候蔡總統提名您擔任第12屆考試委員那時候提名的新聞稿有提到為了配合年金改革的步伐多項重要年金改革的方案要交由考試院研擬\n到了2020年5月的時候再度提名您擔任考試院第13屆考試委員裡面提到的是說您原來在12屆的考試委員任內有推動年改及相關考學制度的研議是熟悉考試院職人考量續任有助於經驗傳承\n這是前兩次提名的相關的理由第一 這一次我們賴總統提名您擔任司法院大法官這一次的新聞稿是說您擔任考試委員的時候對推動年金改革退府新制左右貢獻這個是這次的提名所以您在自傳中也有提到說您擔任考試委員的時候是以推動年金改革為己任 對吧\n是那請問您擔任考試委員的時候就是已經就是那個時候您有完成當時蔡總統交付的任務嗎 您認為呢\n報告委員基本上年金改革是考試院有幾任的院長都有這樣子的一個期待只是各黨針對部分的意見不同譬如說所得替代率或者相關的一些配套措施\n所以基本上年輕改革這件事是應該在當時因為當時還沒有民眾黨所以在是國民黨跟民進黨在黨團都或者是立法院跟都共同的共識在這種情形之下呢我覺得我有部分達成有部分沒有達成\n那您的這個您的自傳裡頭也有提到齁這個對立法院齁就這個有關年金改革這個退伏三法齁這個對考試院通過的部分立法院對考試院通過的部分條件有不同意見最後依立法院修正條文通過是所以您剛解釋的吧是所以您在考試院的院會裡頭齁在考試院第十二屆一百三十六次會議裡頭齁您這個捍衛您當時的說法是齁這個這個有書寫的齁這個呃\n民主國家所有重要事項必須經由國會做最後決議因此立法過程中所以部長身為考試院的全序部長但是對於立法院最後決議不僅全序部長要尊重本院議欄所以您是相當尊重這個立法院我們國會的這個立法權聽起來是這樣是沒錯那第137次會議您也有提到在提到這個這個\n從年改迄今很多法案都是透過立法院提案通過這是立法委員的限定執掌造成略過其他憲政機關權責的問題形式上無法苛責行政院此為立法委員的行為屬於目前責任政治及政黨政治運作的結果這些都是您說過的是所以在擔任考試委員期間您相當尊重立法院的立法行政權尊重國會的意見\n您請問現在是抱持同樣的想法嗎\n報告委員 我想法一貫不只是從考試委員從以前擔任學者基本上就認為立法院是最高民意機關應該要予以尊重很好 那我們期許您擔任大法官一樣有這樣的風格那我想請教您幾個議題我們立法院之前三讀通過提高警消海巡退休所得替代率\n這個您知道有三讀通過那請問對於這個所得替代這個您是會尊重我們立法院所通過的這個立法者形成的這個空間還是會認為說連改不應該走回頭路\n如果作為一個被提名人的話我們尊重我絕對尊重立法院所做的這樣子的一個立法通過但是中間相關的過程當然是由立法院內部形成的這個共識所做成的已經共識啦 三讀已經通過了所以會尊重立法院的這個職權啦尊重OK 好 謝謝您齁那這個這是錦霄這個齁 錦霄的這個部分前面這個是錦霄海巡喔\n那還沒有修改的也有可能修改是我們公教人所呼籲的要停侃退休金彈性調整所得替代率這個七大公教團體要說希望要停侃所得替代率這個部分 退休金的這個部分那如果到時候這個部分在經過立法院的修改又三讀通過了這個所得替代率又有所改變的時候請問您到時候會尊重立法院立法者的這個\n立法行政過程就尊重我們國會的這個權利呢還是還是會認為說不應該這個走回頭路\n基本上在憲法秩序下依據憲法相關的規定跟憲法價值內容我是尊重立法院的所以不管您是擔任學者或是以後擔任這個大法官的話您都會這個尊重立法院所三讀通過這個法律案嗎是就是在憲法價值秩序內尊重立法院那想請教齁這個我們上個禮拜剛剛通過一個普發現金條例對吧\n普發現金一萬元我相關的政黨人士說增加預算有違憲爭議因為憲法規定立法院審查預算不得為增加支出制提議當初行政院送出來是1100現在特別條例增加1350\n那請問您是否認為立法委員可以提法律案為實質增加預算支出的提議並不違反憲法第70條的規定因為我們現在聽到普遍很多有一些這個府院相關一些或者學者有提到說這次通過這個普發一萬元是違反這個憲法第70條的這個規定那我想請問您認為說我們立法院立法委員可不可以提出法律案\n做這個實質增加預算增加的這個提議然後沒有違反憲法第70條的規定報告委員法律見解如何報告委員因為在520號解釋曾經也有過立法院認為這是通過的法律案但是呢有可能在520號4-520號是有關核四的問題那當時呢大法官當時行政院或立法院也都提到可能是重大政策\n因為是法律案跟或者是重大政策或預算案有爭執的時候大法官520號解釋就提供一個解決的方法就是憲法裡面有關行政立法互動的一個政治爭議的解決模式應該在這個憲法框架裡面行政跟立法可以去做這個框架的解決至於怎麼解決尊重大院跟行政院的立場\n那現在就是您回答很多但是沒有回答到這個問題喔這個行政院如果行政院有認為這是違反憲法第70條規定這個腐發先進意外但是立法院通過了如果你以後是要解釋當那個大法官是要解釋憲法那對於這個您明確的解釋是什麼\n報告委員 剛才已經跟委員你講了很多 你覺得有違反嗎就告訴我有沒有違反基本上這是兩院之間有沒有違反憲法第七十條的規定中間中間這個都可以 我會讀啊但是有沒有違反憲法第七十條的規定這個普發現金一萬元\n因為法院主張是預算 法律案然後行政院認為這是預算案行政院認為是預算案嗎?行政院認為是法律裡面有涉及到實質的預算編列是不是?\n你認為這個是法律案?那請問這個是法律案還是預算案?這個特別條例這個就是有爭議行政立法這件事有爭議對有爭議謝謝教授我知道您的答案你認為有爭議你說行政立法是預算案我們認為是法律案我們認為是法律案因為是特別條例行政院是認為這是涉及預算案但是你身為大法官的被提名你認為說這個是有爭議的\n你認為國會在行使預決簽的時候有沒有積極引導政府政策的作用立法院在通過預算也有積極引導政府預算的作用嗎\n導正 但是憲法70條有明文規定因為剛才委員是講預算所以我才會講到說70條那法律案的話70條是預算嘛是法律案嘛那對於說這是預算還是法律案你認為也有爭議兩院有爭議兩院有爭議 司法院怎麼認為呢司法院520號就曾經有做過解釋可以循憲法徵修條文第三條有關兩院的政治爭議解決模式去處理\n陳教授 剛剛您在提到連改的時候我是蠻肯定的因為您說您會尊重立法院的立法形成權就是跟您以前的學說一以貫之就是說即便您擔任大法官還是保有原來擔任教授的風骨但是現在在提到憲法70條這一條的時候您的說法似乎跟您當初擔任學者的時候不大一樣我想請教您1996有一篇\n您看一下喔 平溪大法官釋字391號解釋文這一個我沒有看到你的簡歷 沒有在你的簡歷裡頭啊是為什麼這一篇文章怎麼沒有在你的簡歷裡頭有啊 有有在我的簡歷裡頭簡歷它可能沒有附上來但是在我這一篇文章是在那個剛才所報告的專書論文集裡面專書論文裡頭喔 但是我們上去搜尋喔這個\n上網去搜尋,上網搜尋是沒有辦法讓公眾來閱讀,是沒有公開有公開,上網搜尋應該書上,報告委員,書有可以在書局找得到因為上網搜尋是沒有搜尋,沒關係那我想請教您,這篇文章您的陳述關聯您還記得嗎我記得\n我對於大法官釋字391號的解釋對於他這個有些部分有不同的意見對 您說的這一條裡頭您特別說的我來跟您回憶一下這是您說過的話預算額度修正權僅限於否決或刪減預算此一見解過於狹隘不符合國會在預算預決形式上對行政權有優勢地位之本質\n第二個 縱使立法院不在預算案中做成增加預算支出之決議亦可另提法律案為實質增加預算支出之決議這是您說過的話吧 沒錯吧所以說不管它是法律案 預算案上是不行但是行政課我們的差別是 他說它是預算案您的說法是 您以前當學者說法\n縱使就是不在預算案題也可以另提法例案像這個特別條例就是法例案就算維生實質你還認為說可以實質增加預算支出之提議這是你的說法沒錯吧這是我當學者的說法你當學者的說法當當法官想法會不一樣我跟委員報告一件事情\n還有下一句 下一句因此憲法第70條對立法院審議預算預決權的限制規定實質上並未具有重大意義你覺得70條是沒有重大意義的國會在行使預算預決權時亦有其積極引導政府政策之作用70條沒有提到 這都是你說的話經由國會地勤以來選 傳播媒體監督也可以達到實質監控立法院行使預算審查決議權所以70條可以做適度的鬆綁這都是您之前擔任寫者的這個意見吧\n是 但是報告我七十條是憲法修法是要大院的職權\n我們不在說修那個法我們在說您當時對這個立法院和立法權和行政權說這個國會有這個優勢嘛報告委員我可不可以報告兩點第一個70條我說要修但是是大院的職權我現在不是要提要修我修的說在現在以昨天禮拜五剛剛通過的那個法那個法令那裡頭有沒有這個爭執啊對你以前的看法我是因為你以前擔任學者的時候的看法來跟您討論這件事情第二點我跟委員報告\n我沒有說我脫離我學者想法是一致的但是我基本上尊重大院的做法\n就是尊重立法院的決議就對了所以覺得這個在這個在這個我們跟這一次這個普拉現金一萬塊的這個憲法您是還是跟您以前想法一樣嗎因為這個憲法行政院雖然說憲法70條但這不是適用憲法70條你還是覺得這個憲法70條我認為憲法70條可以修改但是大院的職權\nOK 好 謝謝您啦至少我認為您在擔任這個學者的時候剛剛我問的連改的部分尊重立法院的立法權還有這個就是70條的這個部分憲法70條這個我們通過這個普法宣言的法律案那個預算的跟行政想法不一樣立法權有優勢的這個地方您的想法應該是學術想法應該是沒有改變的\n這一點跟您肯定那我再想跟您請教也是很重要的一點就是中央和地方財政權的劃分您一樣寫過一篇觀點是從我國實證憲法論中央與地方財政權的劃分你還記得你說過什麼嗎這個中央和地方財政權\n這垂直權利分立嘛來 我來幫您整理一下您說過 國家財政權在行使與分配上在核心性無異體框架的財政學者這個是財政學者和實務運作者的任務接著您又說到說這個財政學者可能劃分不公這個原則仍然符合憲法上所要求的軍權體制不公也不是法學可以解決的\n第三個你說這個可能會產生重中央忽略地方這種劃分方法讓地方有什麼參與群要思考憲政的問題所以這個結論就是說這個財政行使案分配是憲法抉擇和實務運作者我想實務的運作者應該指的就是立法院這邊是我們這邊的任務吧實務運作者我的看法是中央跟地方應該協力\n然後第二個有關這個怎麼劃分 比如說以前是中央比較多嘛那你認為這個雖然劃分不公啦 不管中央多地方多因為中央可能多 地方也可能多 劃分不公但是這個也不是法學可以解決的嘛 這是您之前提到的所以這個不是法律可以解釋的嘛這個雖然可能會出現中央多 或者我們這次修過以後地方多一點 還是中央多\n但是這些都不是法學可以解決的要用財政學的用實務來做規劃嘛沒錯吧所以這根本就不是大法官可以解決的東西嘛不是大法官可以解釋的東西嘛所以這個財政訴訟送到司法院憲法法庭的時候應該就是不是憲法法庭可以接受的案子吧\n因為這不是法學者可以解決問題這是你以前的觀念你現在還是這樣的觀念嗎因為你認為中央和地方的財政法是立法委員的任務這沒問題從民意來講要有中央跟地方協力來處理第二個再加上財政學者相關的看法再提出建議來讓中央跟地方協力來解決您之前認為眾矢劃分不公也不是法學可以解決現在還是這樣想法嗎\n因為財政的預算那些內容非常精算的部分這個不是法學可以解決的嘛但是如果專業的話可以補充的話由專業來補充 由財政學者來處理但是這個東西如果要拿去釋憲 財政說法去釋憲的話這就不能受理啊因為法學界並不能解決這個實務上這個財政這些問題嘛 對不對\n但是法院可以請鑑定人 但是可以請鑑定人可以請鑑定人 財政學的學者專家鑑定人如果大法官提名人數夠的時候 這事件怎麼受理呢這不是法學可以解決問題 你還是會不會是這樣的想法嗎\n是,但是可以由鑑定人才證明因為時間很短,我現在再問一題因為您剛有特別提到我們離島,我要特別跟您感謝但是我想請教你這一題,您當年考試委員的時候109到113年,發言次數比例分別是65、39、20就11次、20次、10次,最後兩年是7次、7次是不是因為那時候年改任務已經了,所以後來什麼業務都不大需要說了你後面兩年,發言的次數相當的少,只剩下7次\n52場宴會裡頭您只發言了7次32場也只發言了7次是因為業務已經沒有了的關係嗎\n所以就沒有需要再關心其他的事情很多政務不是在院會裡面院會大概就是已經做了大家有共識的來做成解決那我想請問您剛剛所提到剛剛您在口頭報告我看書院報告沒有但口頭報告有特別提到有關離島的這個部分您知道我是來自離島金門就專門我們離島地區這個特考這個規劃這個考試院有開會吧\n是那大家也都是有共識嘛對不對對 大家有共識在考試院第13屆第138次會議裡頭是其中有9位考試委員這個有\n有八位考試委員發言支持或是發言建議 你知道嗎是九位裡面有八位發言 哪一位沒有發言報告委員 因為之前已經跟考選部溝通而且是我全力贊成的所以我認為基本上我已經贊成了不需要任何的時間所以沒有 在這個離島特考裡頭因為您剛剛有說這是考試院 您的算是公積但這個離島這個特考的這個業務裡頭唯一九位考試委員唯一沒有發言是我們陳子洋教授\n你是對我們離島失誤因為很贊成所以不用發言是吧報告委員委員的政治歷練非常的豐厚知道很多都是事前大家的溝通協調所以其他八個發言都是因為不贊成所以來協調是嗎不是不是不是是因為\n我在很多問題都在第一屆都已經全部說過了不希望浪費院會的時間所以九位委員有八位委員發言有點浪費時間九位只有您沒有發言耶您就跟我說您剛才在口頭包特別跟我說檢視理導者和這個議員九位委員裡面有兩位是已經這個續任過的然後七位沒有續任所以我們希望讓兩位續任不再發言但另外一位也發了言\n沒關係沒有發言因為表示您的至少這個也是通過我們是跟您表示感謝所以不發言有時候會表示那因為時間到我們還有其他的希望如果您有興同過這個提問維持一樣的風骨\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.424 --> 00:09.648\n謝謝主席有請我們這個陳教授備題門人請備題門人\n\n00:24.398 --> 00:48.030\n在看這個總統府送過來的這個簡歷還有您剛剛的這個口頭自傳的報告裡頭本席覺得您是一位這個理論與這個實務經驗兼具的是我們這個法學界法律界的一時之選在看著你的簡歷後我想這是您第三次到這個立法院來接受這個被提名就是同意權的行使對吧\n\n00:55.641 --> 01:14.769\n我們先來看看您過往的成績單2017年的時候蔡總統提名您擔任第12屆考試委員那時候提名的新聞稿有提到為了配合年金改革的步伐多項重要年金改革的方案要交由考試院研擬\n\n01:16.360 --> 01:35.512\n到了2020年5月的時候再度提名您擔任考試院第13屆考試委員裡面提到的是說您原來在12屆的考試委員任內有推動年改及相關考學制度的研議是熟悉考試院職人考量續任有助於經驗傳承\n\n01:37.313 --> 02:03.184\n這是前兩次提名的相關的理由第一這一次我們賴總統提名您擔任司法院大法官這一次的新聞稿是說您擔任考試委員的時候對推動年金改革退府新制左右貢獻這個是這次的提名所以您在自傳中也有提到說您擔任考試委員的時候是以推動年金改革為己任對吧\n\n02:03.860 --> 02:12.247\n是那請問您擔任考試委員的時候就是已經就是那個時候您有完成當時蔡總統交付的任務嗎您認為呢\n\n02:14.822 --> 02:33.961\n報告委員基本上年金改革是考試院有幾任的院長都有這樣子的一個期待只是各黨針對部分的意見不同譬如說所得替代率或者相關的一些配套措施\n\n02:34.662 --> 02:54.481\n所以基本上年輕改革這件事是應該在當時因為當時還沒有民眾黨所以在是國民黨跟民進黨在黨團都或者是立法院跟都共同的共識在這種情形之下呢我覺得我有部分達成有部分沒有達成\n\n02:55.382 --> 03:18.021\n那您的這個您的自傳裡頭也有提到齁這個對立法院齁就這個有關年金改革這個退伏三法齁這個對考試院通過的部分立法院對考試院通過的部分條件有不同意見最後依立法院修正條文通過是所以您剛解釋的吧是所以您在考試院的院會裡頭齁在考試院第十二屆一百三十六次會議裡頭齁您這個捍衛您當時的說法是齁這個這個有書寫的齁這個呃\n\n03:23.365 --> 03:49.525\n民主國家所有重要事項必須經由國會做最後決議因此立法過程中所以部長身為考試院的全序部長但是對於立法院最後決議不僅全序部長要尊重本院議欄所以您是相當尊重這個立法院我們國會的這個立法權聽起來是這樣是沒錯那第137次會議您也有提到在提到這個這個\n\n03:52.240 --> 04:17.283\n從年改迄今很多法案都是透過立法院提案通過這是立法委員的限定執掌造成略過其他憲政機關權責的問題形式上無法苛責行政院此為立法委員的行為屬於目前責任政治及政黨政治運作的結果這些都是您說過的是所以在擔任考試委員期間您相當尊重立法院的立法行政權尊重國會的意見\n\n04:18.624 --> 04:22.724\n您請問現在是抱持同樣的想法嗎\n\n04:24.724 --> 04:48.578\n報告委員我想法一貫不只是從考試委員從以前擔任學者基本上就認為立法院是最高民意機關應該要予以尊重很好那我們期許您擔任大法官一樣有這樣的風格那我想請教您幾個議題我們立法院之前三讀通過提高警消海巡退休所得替代率\n\n04:50.219 --> 04:59.004\n這個您知道有三讀通過那請問對於這個所得替代這個您是會尊重我們立法院所通過的這個立法者形成的這個空間還是會認為說連改不應該走回頭路\n\n05:02.610 --> 05:29.729\n如果作為一個被提名人的話我們尊重我絕對尊重立法院所做的這樣子的一個立法通過但是中間相關的過程當然是由立法院內部形成的這個共識所做成的已經共識啦三讀已經通過了所以會尊重立法院的這個職權啦尊重OK好謝謝您齁那這個這是錦霄這個齁錦霄的這個部分前面這個是錦霄海巡喔\n\n05:30.109 --> 05:53.958\n那還沒有修改的也有可能修改是我們公教人所呼籲的要停侃退休金彈性調整所得替代率這個七大公教團體要說希望要停侃所得替代率這個部分退休金的這個部分那如果到時候這個部分在經過立法院的修改又三讀通過了這個所得替代率又有所改變的時候請問您到時候會尊重立法院立法者的這個\n\n05:54.858 --> 05:59.025\n立法行政過程就尊重我們國會的這個權利呢還是還是會認為說不應該這個走回頭路\n\n06:02.955 --> 06:30.165\n基本上在憲法秩序下依據憲法相關的規定跟憲法價值內容我是尊重立法院的所以不管您是擔任學者或是以後擔任這個大法官的話您都會這個尊重立法院所三讀通過這個法律案嗎是就是在憲法價值秩序內尊重立法院那想請教齁這個我們上個禮拜剛剛通過一個普發現金條例對吧\n\n06:33.292 --> 06:40.500\n普發現金一萬元我相關的政黨人士說增加預算有違憲爭議因為憲法規定立法院審查預算不得為增加支出制提議當初行政院送出來是1100現在特別條例增加1350\n\n06:52.313 --> 07:19.133\n那請問您是否認為立法委員可以提法律案為實質增加預算支出的提議並不違反憲法第70條的規定因為我們現在聽到普遍很多有一些這個府院相關一些或者學者有提到說這次通過這個普發一萬元是違反這個憲法第70條的這個規定那我想請問您認為說我們立法院立法委員可不可以提出法律案\n\n07:20.114 --> 07:47.235\n做這個實質增加預算增加的這個提議然後沒有違反憲法第70條的規定報告委員法律見解如何報告委員因為在520號解釋曾經也有過立法院認為這是通過的法律案但是呢有可能在520號4-520號是有關核四的問題那當時呢大法官當時行政院或立法院也都提到可能是重大政策\n\n07:48.616 --> 08:12.137\n因為是法律案跟或者是重大政策或預算案有爭執的時候大法官520號解釋就提供一個解決的方法就是憲法裡面有關行政立法互動的一個政治爭議的解決模式應該在這個憲法框架裡面行政跟立法可以去做這個框架的解決至於怎麼解決尊重大院跟行政院的立場\n\n08:12.777 --> 08:31.217\n那現在就是您回答很多但是沒有回答到這個問題喔這個行政院如果行政院有認為這是違反憲法第70條規定這個腐發先進意外但是立法院通過了如果你以後是要解釋當那個大法官是要解釋憲法那對於這個您明確的解釋是什麼\n\n08:32.506 --> 08:46.474\n報告委員剛才已經跟委員你講了很多你覺得有違反嗎就告訴我有沒有違反基本上這是兩院之間有沒有違反憲法第七十條的規定中間中間這個都可以我會讀啊但是有沒有違反憲法第七十條的規定這個普發現金一萬元\n\n08:48.935 --> 09:00.588\n因為法院主張是預算法律案然後行政院認為這是預算案行政院認為是預算案嗎?行政院認為是法律裡面有涉及到實質的預算編列是不是?\n\n09:03.732 --> 09:27.973\n你認為這個是法律案?那請問這個是法律案還是預算案?這個特別條例這個就是有爭議行政立法這件事有爭議對有爭議謝謝教授我知道您的答案你認為有爭議你說行政立法是預算案我們認為是法律案我們認為是法律案因為是特別條例行政院是認為這是涉及預算案但是你身為大法官的被提名你認為說這個是有爭議的\n\n09:29.835 --> 09:35.459\n你認為國會在行使預決簽的時候有沒有積極引導政府政策的作用立法院在通過預算也有積極引導政府預算的作用嗎\n\n09:50.033 --> 10:16.808\n導正但是憲法70條有明文規定因為剛才委員是講預算所以我才會講到說70條那法律案的話70條是預算嘛是法律案嘛那對於說這是預算還是法律案你認為也有爭議兩院有爭議兩院有爭議司法院怎麼認為呢司法院520號就曾經有做過解釋可以循憲法徵修條文第三條有關兩院的政治爭議解決模式去處理\n\n10:18.028 --> 10:40.461\n陳教授剛剛您在提到連改的時候我是蠻肯定的因為您說您會尊重立法院的立法形成權就是跟您以前的學說一以貫之就是說即便您擔任大法官還是保有原來擔任教授的風骨但是現在在提到憲法70條這一條的時候您的說法似乎跟您當初擔任學者的時候不大一樣我想請教您1996有一篇\n\n10:43.854 --> 11:07.021\n您看一下喔平溪大法官釋字391號解釋文這一個我沒有看到你的簡歷沒有在你的簡歷裡頭啊是為什麼這一篇文章怎麼沒有在你的簡歷裡頭有啊有有在我的簡歷裡頭簡歷它可能沒有附上來但是在我這一篇文章是在那個剛才所報告的專書論文集裡面專書論文裡頭喔但是我們上去搜尋喔這個\n\n11:09.422 --> 11:32.557\n上網去搜尋,上網搜尋是沒有辦法讓公眾來閱讀,是沒有公開有公開,上網搜尋應該書上,報告委員,書有可以在書局找得到因為上網搜尋是沒有搜尋,沒關係那我想請教您,這篇文章您的陳述關聯您還記得嗎我記得\n\n11:35.319 --> 12:03.145\n我對於大法官釋字391號的解釋對於他這個有些部分有不同的意見對您說的這一條裡頭您特別說的我來跟您回憶一下這是您說過的話預算額度修正權僅限於否決或刪減預算此一見解過於狹隘不符合國會在預算預決形式上對行政權有優勢地位之本質\n\n12:04.565 --> 12:25.334\n第二個縱使立法院不在預算案中做成增加預算支出之決議亦可另提法律案為實質增加預算支出之決議這是您說過的話吧沒錯吧所以說不管它是法律案預算案上是不行但是行政課我們的差別是他說它是預算案您的說法是您以前當學者說法\n\n12:27.836 --> 12:45.295\n縱使就是不在預算案題也可以另提法例案像這個特別條例就是法例案就算維生實質你還認為說可以實質增加預算支出之提議這是你的說法沒錯吧這是我當學者的說法你當學者的說法當當法官想法會不一樣我跟委員報告一件事情\n\n12:46.556 --> 13:14.872\n還有下一句下一句因此憲法第70條對立法院審議預算預決權的限制規定實質上並未具有重大意義你覺得70條是沒有重大意義的國會在行使預算預決權時亦有其積極引導政府政策之作用70條沒有提到這都是你說的話經由國會地勤以來選傳播媒體監督也可以達到實質監控立法院行使預算審查決議權所以70條可以做適度的鬆綁這都是您之前擔任寫者的這個意見吧\n\n13:17.049 --> 13:22.102\n是但是報告我七十條是憲法修法是要大院的職權\n\n13:25.205 --> 13:50.814\n我們不在說修那個法我們在說您當時對這個立法院和立法權和行政權說這個國會有這個優勢嘛報告委員我可不可以報告兩點第一個70條我說要修但是是大院的職權我現在不是要提要修我修的說在現在以昨天禮拜五剛剛通過的那個法那個法令那裡頭有沒有這個爭執啊對你以前的看法我是因為你以前擔任學者的時候的看法來跟您討論這件事情第二點我跟委員報告\n\n13:53.795 --> 13:57.779\n我沒有說我脫離我學者想法是一致的但是我基本上尊重大院的做法\n\n14:17.074 --> 14:29.239\n就是尊重立法院的決議就對了所以覺得這個在這個在這個我們跟這一次這個普拉現金一萬塊的這個憲法您是還是跟您以前想法一樣嗎因為這個憲法行政院雖然說憲法70條但這不是適用憲法70條你還是覺得這個憲法70條我認為憲法70條可以修改但是大院的職權\n\n14:37.642 --> 14:58.942\nOK好謝謝您啦至少我認為您在擔任這個學者的時候剛剛我問的連改的部分尊重立法院的立法權還有這個就是70條的這個部分憲法70條這個我們通過這個普法宣言的法律案那個預算的跟行政想法不一樣立法權有優勢的這個地方您的想法應該是學術想法應該是沒有改變的\n\n15:00.042 --> 15:11.711\n這一點跟您肯定那我再想跟您請教也是很重要的一點就是中央和地方財政權的劃分您一樣寫過一篇觀點是從我國實證憲法論中央與地方財政權的劃分你還記得你說過什麼嗎這個中央和地方財政權\n\n15:17.512 --> 15:39.691\n這垂直權利分立嘛來我來幫您整理一下您說過國家財政權在行使與分配上在核心性無異體框架的財政學者這個是財政學者和實務運作者的任務接著您又說到說這個財政學者可能劃分不公這個原則仍然符合憲法上所要求的軍權體制不公也不是法學可以解決的\n\n15:41.112 --> 16:02.668\n第三個你說這個可能會產生重中央忽略地方這種劃分方法讓地方有什麼參與群要思考憲政的問題所以這個結論就是說這個財政行使案分配是憲法抉擇和實務運作者我想實務的運作者應該指的就是立法院這邊是我們這邊的任務吧實務運作者我的看法是中央跟地方應該協力\n\n16:04.489 --> 16:26.162\n然後第二個有關這個怎麼劃分比如說以前是中央比較多嘛那你認為這個雖然劃分不公啦不管中央多地方多因為中央可能多地方也可能多劃分不公但是這個也不是法學可以解決的嘛這是您之前提到的所以這個不是法律可以解釋的嘛這個雖然可能會出現中央多或者我們這次修過以後地方多一點還是中央多\n\n16:26.602 --> 16:44.484\n但是這些都不是法學可以解決的要用財政學的用實務來做規劃嘛沒錯吧所以這根本就不是大法官可以解決的東西嘛不是大法官可以解釋的東西嘛所以這個財政訴訟送到司法院憲法法庭的時候應該就是不是憲法法庭可以接受的案子吧\n\n16:44.744 --> 17:12.161\n因為這不是法學者可以解決問題這是你以前的觀念你現在還是這樣的觀念嗎因為你認為中央和地方的財政法是立法委員的任務這沒問題從民意來講要有中央跟地方協力來處理第二個再加上財政學者相關的看法再提出建議來讓中央跟地方協力來解決您之前認為眾矢劃分不公也不是法學可以解決現在還是這樣想法嗎\n\n17:14.242 --> 17:32.201\n因為財政的預算那些內容非常精算的部分這個不是法學可以解決的嘛但是如果專業的話可以補充的話由專業來補充由財政學者來處理但是這個東西如果要拿去釋憲財政說法去釋憲的話這就不能受理啊因為法學界並不能解決這個實務上這個財政這些問題嘛對不對\n\n17:34.844 --> 17:50.626\n但是法院可以請鑑定人但是可以請鑑定人可以請鑑定人財政學的學者專家鑑定人如果大法官提名人數夠的時候這事件怎麼受理呢這不是法學可以解決問題你還是會不會是這樣的想法嗎\n\n17:51.803 --> 18:14.534\n是,但是可以由鑑定人才證明因為時間很短,我現在再問一題因為您剛有特別提到我們離島,我要特別跟您感謝但是我想請教你這一題,您當年考試委員的時候109到113年,發言次數比例分別是65、39、20就11次、20次、10次,最後兩年是7次、7次是不是因為那時候年改任務已經了,所以後來什麼業務都不大需要說了你後面兩年,發言的次數相當的少,只剩下7次\n\n18:17.796 --> 18:19.979\n52場宴會裡頭您只發言了7次32場也只發言了7次是因為業務已經沒有了的關係嗎\n\n18:25.409 --> 18:45.737\n所以就沒有需要再關心其他的事情很多政務不是在院會裡面院會大概就是已經做了大家有共識的來做成解決那我想請問您剛剛所提到剛剛您在口頭報告我看書院報告沒有但口頭報告有特別提到有關離島的這個部分您知道我是來自離島金門就專門我們離島地區這個特考這個規劃這個考試院有開會吧\n\n18:52.379 --> 18:56.565\n是那大家也都是有共識嘛對不對對大家有共識在考試院第13屆第138次會議裡頭是其中有9位考試委員這個有\n\n19:03.001 --> 19:30.699\n有八位考試委員發言支持或是發言建議你知道嗎是九位裡面有八位發言哪一位沒有發言報告委員因為之前已經跟考選部溝通而且是我全力贊成的所以我認為基本上我已經贊成了不需要任何的時間所以沒有在這個離島特考裡頭因為您剛剛有說這是考試院您的算是公積但這個離島這個特考的這個業務裡頭唯一九位考試委員唯一沒有發言是我們陳子洋教授\n\n19:31.852 --> 19:46.589\n你是對我們離島失誤因為很贊成所以不用發言是吧報告委員委員的政治歷練非常的豐厚知道很多都是事前大家的溝通協調所以其他八個發言都是因為不贊成所以來協調是嗎不是不是不是是因為\n\n19:47.330 --> 20:10.839\n我在很多問題都在第一屆都已經全部說過了不希望浪費院會的時間所以九位委員有八位委員發言有點浪費時間九位只有您沒有發言耶您就跟我說您剛才在口頭包特別跟我說檢視理導者和這個議員九位委員裡面有兩位是已經這個續任過的然後七位沒有續任所以我們希望讓兩位續任不再發言但另外一位也發了言\n\n20:11.259 --> 20:22.807\n沒關係沒有發言因為表示您的至少這個也是通過我們是跟您表示感謝所以不發言有時候會表示那因為時間到我們還有其他的希望如果您有興同過這個提問維持一樣的風骨\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.424,"end":9.648,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們這個陳教授備題門人請備題門人"},{"start":24.398,"end":48.03,"text":"在看這個總統府送過來的這個簡歷還有您剛剛的這個口頭自傳的報告裡頭本席覺得您是一位這個理論與這個實務經驗兼具的是我們這個法學界法律界的一時之選在看著你的簡歷後我想這是您第三次到這個立法院來接受這個被提名就是同意權的行使對吧"},{"start":55.641,"end":74.769,"text":"我們先來看看您過往的成績單2017年的時候蔡總統提名您擔任第12屆考試委員那時候提名的新聞稿有提到為了配合年金改革的步伐多項重要年金改革的方案要交由考試院研擬"},{"start":76.36,"end":95.512,"text":"到了2020年5月的時候再度提名您擔任考試院第13屆考試委員裡面提到的是說您原來在12屆的考試委員任內有推動年改及相關考學制度的研議是熟悉考試院職人考量續任有助於經驗傳承"},{"start":97.313,"end":123.184,"text":"這是前兩次提名的相關的理由第一 這一次我們賴總統提名您擔任司法院大法官這一次的新聞稿是說您擔任考試委員的時候對推動年金改革退府新制左右貢獻這個是這次的提名所以您在自傳中也有提到說您擔任考試委員的時候是以推動年金改革為己任 對吧"},{"start":123.86,"end":132.247,"text":"是那請問您擔任考試委員的時候就是已經就是那個時候您有完成當時蔡總統交付的任務嗎 您認為呢"},{"start":134.822,"end":153.961,"text":"報告委員基本上年金改革是考試院有幾任的院長都有這樣子的一個期待只是各黨針對部分的意見不同譬如說所得替代率或者相關的一些配套措施"},{"start":154.662,"end":174.481,"text":"所以基本上年輕改革這件事是應該在當時因為當時還沒有民眾黨所以在是國民黨跟民進黨在黨團都或者是立法院跟都共同的共識在這種情形之下呢我覺得我有部分達成有部分沒有達成"},{"start":175.382,"end":198.021,"text":"那您的這個您的自傳裡頭也有提到齁這個對立法院齁就這個有關年金改革這個退伏三法齁這個對考試院通過的部分立法院對考試院通過的部分條件有不同意見最後依立法院修正條文通過是所以您剛解釋的吧是所以您在考試院的院會裡頭齁在考試院第十二屆一百三十六次會議裡頭齁您這個捍衛您當時的說法是齁這個這個有書寫的齁這個呃"},{"start":203.365,"end":229.525,"text":"民主國家所有重要事項必須經由國會做最後決議因此立法過程中所以部長身為考試院的全序部長但是對於立法院最後決議不僅全序部長要尊重本院議欄所以您是相當尊重這個立法院我們國會的這個立法權聽起來是這樣是沒錯那第137次會議您也有提到在提到這個這個"},{"start":232.24,"end":257.283,"text":"從年改迄今很多法案都是透過立法院提案通過這是立法委員的限定執掌造成略過其他憲政機關權責的問題形式上無法苛責行政院此為立法委員的行為屬於目前責任政治及政黨政治運作的結果這些都是您說過的是所以在擔任考試委員期間您相當尊重立法院的立法行政權尊重國會的意見"},{"start":258.624,"end":262.724,"text":"您請問現在是抱持同樣的想法嗎"},{"start":264.724,"end":288.578,"text":"報告委員 我想法一貫不只是從考試委員從以前擔任學者基本上就認為立法院是最高民意機關應該要予以尊重很好 那我們期許您擔任大法官一樣有這樣的風格那我想請教您幾個議題我們立法院之前三讀通過提高警消海巡退休所得替代率"},{"start":290.219,"end":299.004,"text":"這個您知道有三讀通過那請問對於這個所得替代這個您是會尊重我們立法院所通過的這個立法者形成的這個空間還是會認為說連改不應該走回頭路"},{"start":302.61,"end":329.729,"text":"如果作為一個被提名人的話我們尊重我絕對尊重立法院所做的這樣子的一個立法通過但是中間相關的過程當然是由立法院內部形成的這個共識所做成的已經共識啦 三讀已經通過了所以會尊重立法院的這個職權啦尊重OK 好 謝謝您齁那這個這是錦霄這個齁 錦霄的這個部分前面這個是錦霄海巡喔"},{"start":330.109,"end":353.958,"text":"那還沒有修改的也有可能修改是我們公教人所呼籲的要停侃退休金彈性調整所得替代率這個七大公教團體要說希望要停侃所得替代率這個部分 退休金的這個部分那如果到時候這個部分在經過立法院的修改又三讀通過了這個所得替代率又有所改變的時候請問您到時候會尊重立法院立法者的這個"},{"start":354.858,"end":359.025,"text":"立法行政過程就尊重我們國會的這個權利呢還是還是會認為說不應該這個走回頭路"},{"start":362.955,"end":390.165,"text":"基本上在憲法秩序下依據憲法相關的規定跟憲法價值內容我是尊重立法院的所以不管您是擔任學者或是以後擔任這個大法官的話您都會這個尊重立法院所三讀通過這個法律案嗎是就是在憲法價值秩序內尊重立法院那想請教齁這個我們上個禮拜剛剛通過一個普發現金條例對吧"},{"start":393.292,"end":400.5,"text":"普發現金一萬元我相關的政黨人士說增加預算有違憲爭議因為憲法規定立法院審查預算不得為增加支出制提議當初行政院送出來是1100現在特別條例增加1350"},{"start":412.313,"end":439.133,"text":"那請問您是否認為立法委員可以提法律案為實質增加預算支出的提議並不違反憲法第70條的規定因為我們現在聽到普遍很多有一些這個府院相關一些或者學者有提到說這次通過這個普發一萬元是違反這個憲法第70條的這個規定那我想請問您認為說我們立法院立法委員可不可以提出法律案"},{"start":440.114,"end":467.235,"text":"做這個實質增加預算增加的這個提議然後沒有違反憲法第70條的規定報告委員法律見解如何報告委員因為在520號解釋曾經也有過立法院認為這是通過的法律案但是呢有可能在520號4-520號是有關核四的問題那當時呢大法官當時行政院或立法院也都提到可能是重大政策"},{"start":468.616,"end":492.137,"text":"因為是法律案跟或者是重大政策或預算案有爭執的時候大法官520號解釋就提供一個解決的方法就是憲法裡面有關行政立法互動的一個政治爭議的解決模式應該在這個憲法框架裡面行政跟立法可以去做這個框架的解決至於怎麼解決尊重大院跟行政院的立場"},{"start":492.777,"end":511.217,"text":"那現在就是您回答很多但是沒有回答到這個問題喔這個行政院如果行政院有認為這是違反憲法第70條規定這個腐發先進意外但是立法院通過了如果你以後是要解釋當那個大法官是要解釋憲法那對於這個您明確的解釋是什麼"},{"start":512.506,"end":526.474,"text":"報告委員 剛才已經跟委員你講了很多 你覺得有違反嗎就告訴我有沒有違反基本上這是兩院之間有沒有違反憲法第七十條的規定中間中間這個都可以 我會讀啊但是有沒有違反憲法第七十條的規定這個普發現金一萬元"},{"start":528.935,"end":540.588,"text":"因為法院主張是預算 法律案然後行政院認為這是預算案行政院認為是預算案嗎?行政院認為是法律裡面有涉及到實質的預算編列是不是?"},{"start":543.732,"end":567.973,"text":"你認為這個是法律案?那請問這個是法律案還是預算案?這個特別條例這個就是有爭議行政立法這件事有爭議對有爭議謝謝教授我知道您的答案你認為有爭議你說行政立法是預算案我們認為是法律案我們認為是法律案因為是特別條例行政院是認為這是涉及預算案但是你身為大法官的被提名你認為說這個是有爭議的"},{"start":569.835,"end":575.459,"text":"你認為國會在行使預決簽的時候有沒有積極引導政府政策的作用立法院在通過預算也有積極引導政府預算的作用嗎"},{"start":590.033,"end":616.808,"text":"導正 但是憲法70條有明文規定因為剛才委員是講預算所以我才會講到說70條那法律案的話70條是預算嘛是法律案嘛那對於說這是預算還是法律案你認為也有爭議兩院有爭議兩院有爭議 司法院怎麼認為呢司法院520號就曾經有做過解釋可以循憲法徵修條文第三條有關兩院的政治爭議解決模式去處理"},{"start":618.028,"end":640.461,"text":"陳教授 剛剛您在提到連改的時候我是蠻肯定的因為您說您會尊重立法院的立法形成權就是跟您以前的學說一以貫之就是說即便您擔任大法官還是保有原來擔任教授的風骨但是現在在提到憲法70條這一條的時候您的說法似乎跟您當初擔任學者的時候不大一樣我想請教您1996有一篇"},{"start":643.854,"end":667.021,"text":"您看一下喔 平溪大法官釋字391號解釋文這一個我沒有看到你的簡歷 沒有在你的簡歷裡頭啊是為什麼這一篇文章怎麼沒有在你的簡歷裡頭有啊 有有在我的簡歷裡頭簡歷它可能沒有附上來但是在我這一篇文章是在那個剛才所報告的專書論文集裡面專書論文裡頭喔 但是我們上去搜尋喔這個"},{"start":669.422,"end":692.557,"text":"上網去搜尋,上網搜尋是沒有辦法讓公眾來閱讀,是沒有公開有公開,上網搜尋應該書上,報告委員,書有可以在書局找得到因為上網搜尋是沒有搜尋,沒關係那我想請教您,這篇文章您的陳述關聯您還記得嗎我記得"},{"start":695.319,"end":723.145,"text":"我對於大法官釋字391號的解釋對於他這個有些部分有不同的意見對 您說的這一條裡頭您特別說的我來跟您回憶一下這是您說過的話預算額度修正權僅限於否決或刪減預算此一見解過於狹隘不符合國會在預算預決形式上對行政權有優勢地位之本質"},{"start":724.565,"end":745.334,"text":"第二個 縱使立法院不在預算案中做成增加預算支出之決議亦可另提法律案為實質增加預算支出之決議這是您說過的話吧 沒錯吧所以說不管它是法律案 預算案上是不行但是行政課我們的差別是 他說它是預算案您的說法是 您以前當學者說法"},{"start":747.836,"end":765.295,"text":"縱使就是不在預算案題也可以另提法例案像這個特別條例就是法例案就算維生實質你還認為說可以實質增加預算支出之提議這是你的說法沒錯吧這是我當學者的說法你當學者的說法當當法官想法會不一樣我跟委員報告一件事情"},{"start":766.556,"end":794.872,"text":"還有下一句 下一句因此憲法第70條對立法院審議預算預決權的限制規定實質上並未具有重大意義你覺得70條是沒有重大意義的國會在行使預算預決權時亦有其積極引導政府政策之作用70條沒有提到 這都是你說的話經由國會地勤以來選 傳播媒體監督也可以達到實質監控立法院行使預算審查決議權所以70條可以做適度的鬆綁這都是您之前擔任寫者的這個意見吧"},{"start":797.049,"end":802.102,"text":"是 但是報告我七十條是憲法修法是要大院的職權"},{"start":805.205,"end":830.814,"text":"我們不在說修那個法我們在說您當時對這個立法院和立法權和行政權說這個國會有這個優勢嘛報告委員我可不可以報告兩點第一個70條我說要修但是是大院的職權我現在不是要提要修我修的說在現在以昨天禮拜五剛剛通過的那個法那個法令那裡頭有沒有這個爭執啊對你以前的看法我是因為你以前擔任學者的時候的看法來跟您討論這件事情第二點我跟委員報告"},{"start":833.795,"end":837.779,"text":"我沒有說我脫離我學者想法是一致的但是我基本上尊重大院的做法"},{"start":857.074,"end":869.239,"text":"就是尊重立法院的決議就對了所以覺得這個在這個在這個我們跟這一次這個普拉現金一萬塊的這個憲法您是還是跟您以前想法一樣嗎因為這個憲法行政院雖然說憲法70條但這不是適用憲法70條你還是覺得這個憲法70條我認為憲法70條可以修改但是大院的職權"},{"start":877.642,"end":898.942,"text":"OK 好 謝謝您啦至少我認為您在擔任這個學者的時候剛剛我問的連改的部分尊重立法院的立法權還有這個就是70條的這個部分憲法70條這個我們通過這個普法宣言的法律案那個預算的跟行政想法不一樣立法權有優勢的這個地方您的想法應該是學術想法應該是沒有改變的"},{"start":900.042,"end":911.711,"text":"這一點跟您肯定那我再想跟您請教也是很重要的一點就是中央和地方財政權的劃分您一樣寫過一篇觀點是從我國實證憲法論中央與地方財政權的劃分你還記得你說過什麼嗎這個中央和地方財政權"},{"start":917.512,"end":939.691,"text":"這垂直權利分立嘛來 我來幫您整理一下您說過 國家財政權在行使與分配上在核心性無異體框架的財政學者這個是財政學者和實務運作者的任務接著您又說到說這個財政學者可能劃分不公這個原則仍然符合憲法上所要求的軍權體制不公也不是法學可以解決的"},{"start":941.112,"end":962.668,"text":"第三個你說這個可能會產生重中央忽略地方這種劃分方法讓地方有什麼參與群要思考憲政的問題所以這個結論就是說這個財政行使案分配是憲法抉擇和實務運作者我想實務的運作者應該指的就是立法院這邊是我們這邊的任務吧實務運作者我的看法是中央跟地方應該協力"},{"start":964.489,"end":986.162,"text":"然後第二個有關這個怎麼劃分 比如說以前是中央比較多嘛那你認為這個雖然劃分不公啦 不管中央多地方多因為中央可能多 地方也可能多 劃分不公但是這個也不是法學可以解決的嘛 這是您之前提到的所以這個不是法律可以解釋的嘛這個雖然可能會出現中央多 或者我們這次修過以後地方多一點 還是中央多"},{"start":986.602,"end":1004.484,"text":"但是這些都不是法學可以解決的要用財政學的用實務來做規劃嘛沒錯吧所以這根本就不是大法官可以解決的東西嘛不是大法官可以解釋的東西嘛所以這個財政訴訟送到司法院憲法法庭的時候應該就是不是憲法法庭可以接受的案子吧"},{"start":1004.744,"end":1032.161,"text":"因為這不是法學者可以解決問題這是你以前的觀念你現在還是這樣的觀念嗎因為你認為中央和地方的財政法是立法委員的任務這沒問題從民意來講要有中央跟地方協力來處理第二個再加上財政學者相關的看法再提出建議來讓中央跟地方協力來解決您之前認為眾矢劃分不公也不是法學可以解決現在還是這樣想法嗎"},{"start":1034.242,"end":1052.201,"text":"因為財政的預算那些內容非常精算的部分這個不是法學可以解決的嘛但是如果專業的話可以補充的話由專業來補充 由財政學者來處理但是這個東西如果要拿去釋憲 財政說法去釋憲的話這就不能受理啊因為法學界並不能解決這個實務上這個財政這些問題嘛 對不對"},{"start":1054.844,"end":1070.626,"text":"但是法院可以請鑑定人 但是可以請鑑定人可以請鑑定人 財政學的學者專家鑑定人如果大法官提名人數夠的時候 這事件怎麼受理呢這不是法學可以解決問題 你還是會不會是這樣的想法嗎"},{"start":1071.803,"end":1094.534,"text":"是,但是可以由鑑定人才證明因為時間很短,我現在再問一題因為您剛有特別提到我們離島,我要特別跟您感謝但是我想請教你這一題,您當年考試委員的時候109到113年,發言次數比例分別是65、39、20就11次、20次、10次,最後兩年是7次、7次是不是因為那時候年改任務已經了,所以後來什麼業務都不大需要說了你後面兩年,發言的次數相當的少,只剩下7次"},{"start":1097.796,"end":1099.979,"text":"52場宴會裡頭您只發言了7次32場也只發言了7次是因為業務已經沒有了的關係嗎"},{"start":1105.409,"end":1125.737,"text":"所以就沒有需要再關心其他的事情很多政務不是在院會裡面院會大概就是已經做了大家有共識的來做成解決那我想請問您剛剛所提到剛剛您在口頭報告我看書院報告沒有但口頭報告有特別提到有關離島的這個部分您知道我是來自離島金門就專門我們離島地區這個特考這個規劃這個考試院有開會吧"},{"start":1132.379,"end":1136.565,"text":"是那大家也都是有共識嘛對不對對 大家有共識在考試院第13屆第138次會議裡頭是其中有9位考試委員這個有"},{"start":1143.001,"end":1170.699,"text":"有八位考試委員發言支持或是發言建議 你知道嗎是九位裡面有八位發言 哪一位沒有發言報告委員 因為之前已經跟考選部溝通而且是我全力贊成的所以我認為基本上我已經贊成了不需要任何的時間所以沒有 在這個離島特考裡頭因為您剛剛有說這是考試院 您的算是公積但這個離島這個特考的這個業務裡頭唯一九位考試委員唯一沒有發言是我們陳子洋教授"},{"start":1171.852,"end":1186.589,"text":"你是對我們離島失誤因為很贊成所以不用發言是吧報告委員委員的政治歷練非常的豐厚知道很多都是事前大家的溝通協調所以其他八個發言都是因為不贊成所以來協調是嗎不是不是不是是因為"},{"start":1187.33,"end":1210.839,"text":"我在很多問題都在第一屆都已經全部說過了不希望浪費院會的時間所以九位委員有八位委員發言有點浪費時間九位只有您沒有發言耶您就跟我說您剛才在口頭包特別跟我說檢視理導者和這個議員九位委員裡面有兩位是已經這個續任過的然後七位沒有續任所以我們希望讓兩位續任不再發言但另外一位也發了言"},{"start":1211.259,"end":1222.807,"text":"沒關係沒有發言因為表示您的至少這個也是通過我們是跟您表示感謝所以不發言有時候會表示那因為時間到我們還有其他的希望如果您有興同過這個提問維持一樣的風骨"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":22,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（9時11分）謝謝主席，有請被提名人陳教授。"],["主席：請被提名人。"],["陳委員玉珍：早。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：看總統府送過來的簡歷還有您剛剛的口頭自傳報告，本席覺得您是一位理論與實務經驗兼具，也是法學界、法律界的一時之選。在看了你的簡歷後，我想這是您第3次到立法院來接受被提名同意權的行使，對吧？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：第3次嘛！前面兩次是考試委員，這次是大法官。我們先來看您過往的成績單，2017年的時候，蔡總統提名您擔任第12屆的考試委員，那時候提名的新聞稿提到，是為了配合年金改革的步伐，多項重要年金改革方案要交由考試院研擬；到了2020年5月的時候，再度提名您擔任考試院第13屆考試委員，裡面提到您在原來第12屆考試委員任內，有推動年改及相關考銓制度的研議，熟悉考試院職能，考量續任有助於經驗傳承；這是前兩次提名的相關理由。這一次賴總統提名您擔任司法院大法官，新聞稿是說您擔任考試委員的時候，對推動年金改革退撫新制著有貢獻，這個是這次的提名。您在自傳中也有提到擔任考試委員的時候，是以推動年金改革為己任，對吧？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：請問您擔任考試委員的時候，您認為那個時候已經有完成當時蔡總統交付的任務嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，基本上，年金改革是考試院幾任院長都有這樣的期待，只是各黨針對部分的意見不同，譬如所得替代率或者相關的一些配套措施。所以基本上，年金改革這件事，因為當時還沒有民眾黨，所以是國民黨跟民進黨黨團在立法院共同的共識，在這種情形之下，我覺得我有部分達成，有部分沒有達成……"],["陳委員玉珍：您的自傳裡頭也有提到，就有關年金改革的退撫三法，立法院對考試院通過的部分條件有不同意見，最後依立法院修正條文通過，就是您剛解釋的。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以在考試院第12屆第136次會議裡，您捍衛您的立場，當時的說法是：民主國家所有重要事項，必須經由國會作最後決議，因此立法過程中，雖部長身為考試院的銓敘部長，但是對於立法院最後決議，不僅銓敘部長要尊重，本院亦然。所以您是相當尊重立法、國會的立法權，聽起來是這樣子，對吧？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是，沒錯。"],["陳委員玉珍：在第137次會議您也有提到：「從年改迄今，許多法案是透過立法院提案通過，此為立法委員的憲定職掌，造成略過其他憲政機關權責的問題，形式上無法苛責行政院，此為立法委員的行為，屬目前責任政治及政黨政治運作的結果」，這些都是您說過的，對吧？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以在擔任考試委員期間，您相當尊重立法院的立法權，尊重國會的意見，請問您現在也是抱持同樣的想法嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，我想法一貫……"],["陳委員玉珍：一以貫之啦！"],["陳慈陽被提名人：不只是從考試委員，從以前擔任學者，基本上我認為立法院是最高民意機關，應該要予以尊重。"],["陳委員玉珍：很好，我們期許您擔任大法官一樣有這樣的風骨。我想請教您幾個議題，立法院之前三讀通過提高警消海巡退休所得替代率，這個您知道吧？有三讀通過。請問對於所得替代率這個議題，您是會尊重我們立法院所通過的立法形成空間，還是認為年改不應該走回頭路？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：如果作為一個被提名人的話，我們尊重，我絕對尊重立法院所作的這樣的立法通過，但是中間相關的過程，當然是由立法院內部形成的共識所作成的……"],["陳委員玉珍：已經共識了，三讀已經通過了。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：對，對，尊重。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以會尊重立法院的職權啦？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：尊重。"],["陳委員玉珍：OK，好，謝謝您。前面是警消海巡的部分，另外還沒有修改的，但也有可能修改的是公教人員所呼籲的要停砍退休金、彈性調整所得替代率，就是七大公教團體都希望要停砍退休金、所得替代率，如果到時候這個部分再經過立法院的修改，又三讀通過了，所得替代又有所改變的時候，請問您到時候會尊重立法院立法者的立法形成空間、尊重國會的權力，還是會認為不應該走回頭路？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：基本上在憲法秩序下，依據憲法相關的規定跟憲法價值內容，我是尊重立法院。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，所以不管您是擔任學者，或是以後擔任大法官，您都會尊重立法院三讀通過的法律案？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是，我再補充，是在憲法價值秩序內尊重立法院。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，請教我們上個禮拜剛剛通過普發現金條例，您知道嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是，知道。"],["陳委員玉珍：普發現金1萬元，相關的政黨人士說這增加預算有違憲爭議，府院及財主人士認為有違憲爭議，因為依憲法規定，立法院審查預算不得為增加支出之決定，當初行政院送出的特別條例額度是4,100億，現在這個特別條例多增加了1,350億。請問您是否認為，立法委員可以提法律案，為實質增加預算支出之提議，並不違反憲法第七十條的規定？因為我們現在普遍聽到很多相關府院或者一些學者有提到，這次通過普發1萬元是違反憲法第七十條的規定，所以我想請問您：我們立法院、立法委員可不可以提出法律案做實質增加預算的提議，並且沒有違反憲法第七十條的規定？您的法律見解如何？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是，報告委員，因為在520號解釋曾經也有過立法院認為是通過的法律案，但是有可能……釋字520號是有關於核四的問題，當時行政院或立法院也都有提到可能是重大政策，因為是法律案跟重大政策或預算案有爭執的時候，大法官520號解釋就有提供一個解決的方法，就是憲法裡面有關行政、立法互動的政治爭議的解決模式，應該在憲法框架裡面行政跟立法可以去解決，至於怎麼解決，尊重大院跟行政院的立場。"],["陳委員玉珍：您回答很多，但是沒有回答到這個問題。關於普發現金1萬元，如果行政院認為這是違反憲法第七十條規定，但是因為立法院通過了，你以後是要當大法官，是要解釋憲法，對於這個您明確的解釋是什麼？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：剛才已經跟委員報告……"],["陳委員玉珍：你講了很多，你覺得有違反嗎？就告訴我有沒有違反就好。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：基本上，這是兩院之間……"],["陳委員玉珍：有沒有違反憲法第七十條之規定？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：因為各自……"],["陳委員玉珍：普發現金1萬元這個法律案，有沒有違反憲法第七十條規定？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：立法院主張是法律案，然後行政院認為這是預算案，有爭執……"],["陳委員玉珍：行政院認為是預算案嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：行政院認為法律裡面有涉及到實質的預算編列，是不是？"],["陳委員玉珍：好，那你認為這個是法律案？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：這個是有爭議的。"],["陳委員玉珍：那請問這個特別條例是法律案還是預算案？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：這個就是有爭議，行政、立法之間有爭議。"],["陳委員玉珍：您認為有爭議就對了？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：對，有爭議，釋字第520號曾經有解釋過。"],["陳委員玉珍：謝謝，謝謝教授，我知道您的答案，您認為有爭議，您說行政院是預算案，我們認為是法律案，因為是特別條例。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：行政院是認為這涉及預算編列……"],["陳委員玉珍：但是您身為大法官被提名人，您認為這個……"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是有爭議的。"],["陳委員玉珍：有爭議的，好，OK。","你認為國會在行使預算議決權的時候，就是總預算這種預算，有沒有積極引導政府政策的作用？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：有積極，有。"],["陳委員玉珍：有沒有？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：有嘛，所以立法院在通過預算之後，也有積極引導政府預算的作用？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：導正，但是憲法第七十條有明文規定，剛才委員是講預算……"],["陳委員玉珍：對。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：所以我才會講到第七十條。"],["陳委員玉珍：第七十條是預算，不是法律案。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：對，委員講預算……"],["陳委員玉珍：對於是法律案還是預算案，您認為有爭議？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：兩院有爭議。"],["陳委員玉珍：兩院有爭議，那司法院怎麼認為呢？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：司法院釋字第520號曾經做過解釋，可以循憲法增修條文第三條有關兩院的政治爭議解決模式去處理。"],["陳委員玉珍：陳教授，剛剛您在提到年改的時候，我是滿肯定的，因為您說您會尊重立法院的立法形成權，就是跟您以前的學說一以貫之，也就是即便您擔任大法官，還是保有原來擔任教授的風骨。但是現在提到憲法第七十條這一條的時候，您的說法似乎跟您當初擔任學者的時候不太一樣，我想請教，您在1996年有一篇評析大法官釋字第391號解釋文，我有看你的簡歷，但並沒有在你的簡歷裡頭。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：為什麼？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：啊？"],["陳委員玉珍：這一篇文章怎麼沒有在你的簡歷裡頭？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：有啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：簡歷裡頭？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：簡歷可能沒有附上來。"],["陳委員玉珍：簡歷沒有附上來？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：但是我這一篇文章是在剛才所報告的專書論文集裡面。"],["陳委員玉珍：專書論文裡頭，但是我們上網搜尋沒有辦法讓公眾閱讀，是沒有公開？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：有公開，上網搜尋應該書上……報告委員，那個書可以在書局找得到。"],["陳委員玉珍：要到書局，因為上網搜尋是沒有，沒關係，我想請教您，這篇文章的陳述您還記得嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：我記得，對於大法官釋字第391號解釋，有些部分我有不同意見。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，這一條裡頭您特別提到，我來跟您回憶一下，這是您說過的話：預算額度修正權僅限於否決及刪減預算部分，此一見解實過於狹隘，且不符合國會在預算議決權的行使上，對行政權有優勢地位之本質。第二個，縱使立法院不在預算案中做成增加預算支出之決議，亦可另提法律案，為實質增加預算支出之提議。這是您說過的話，沒錯吧？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以預算案是不行，而行政院跟我們的差別是說它是預算案，但您以前當學者的說法是縱使不在預算案提，也可以另提法律案，像這個特別條例就是法律案，您還認為說可以實質增加預算支出之提議。這是您的說法，沒錯吧？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：這是我當學者的說法。"],["陳委員玉珍：你當學者的說法，當大法官想法會不一樣？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：我跟委員報告一件事情……"],["陳委員玉珍：還有下一句。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：因此憲法第七十條對立法院審議預算議決權的限制規定，實際上並未具有重大意義。你覺得第七十條是沒有重大意義的。另外，國會在行使預算議決權時，亦有其積極引導政府政策之作用，而第七十條並沒有提到。經由國會定期改選，及傳播媒體監督，也可以達到實質監控立法院行使預算審查議決權，所以第七十條可以做適度地鬆綁。這都是您之前擔任學者的意見，沒錯吧？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。但是報告委員，第七十條是憲法規定的，修法是要大院的職權。"],["陳委員玉珍：不是，我們不是在說修那個法，我們在說您當時對立法權、行政權，說國會有優勢嘛。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，我可不可以報告兩點？第一個，第七十條我說要修，但這是大院的職權；第二個……"],["陳委員玉珍：我現在不是提要修，我現在是說禮拜五通過的那個法律案裡頭有沒有爭執？我是用你以前擔任學者時候的看法來跟您討論這件事情。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：第二點，我跟委員報告，貴黨團曾經有問卷問我們擔任大法官是不是能夠基於獨立超然的立場，脫離學者的想法，以捍衛自由民主憲政……"],["陳委員玉珍：喔，所以你擔任學者時的想法就這樣……"],["陳慈陽被提名人：我沒有說我脫離，我學者想法是一致的，但是我基本上尊重大院的做法。"],["陳委員玉珍：當你擔任大法官就……尊重什麼？再講一次。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：尊重大院的決議。"],["陳委員玉珍：尊重立法院的決議就對了？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：對，但是……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以關於這一次普發現金1萬塊，您還是跟以前的想法一樣嗎？行政院雖然說憲法第七十條，但這不是適用憲法第七十條，你還是覺得……"],["陳慈陽被提名人：我認為憲法第七十條可以修改……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，沒有那麼適合啦！"],["陳慈陽被提名人：但是我尊重大院的職權。"],["陳委員玉珍：OK，謝謝您。至少我認為您在擔任學者時，剛剛我問的年改，您是尊重立法院的立法權，還有憲法第七十條，我們通過普發現金的是法律案、預算案，跟行政院的想法不一樣，立法權有優勢，您的學術想法應該是沒有改變的吧？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：沒有。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，這一點給予您肯定。","我想再跟您請教，也是很重要的一點，就是中央和地方財政權的劃分，您寫過一篇觀點是「從我國實證憲法論中央與地方財政權劃分」，你還記得你說過什麼嗎？關於中央和地方財政權。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是垂直權力分立。"],["陳委員玉珍：來，我來幫您整理一下，您說過國家財政權在行使與分配上，在合憲性無虞的情況下，是財政學者和實務運作者的任務。接著你又說到財政收支可能劃分不公，但原則仍然符合憲法上所要求的均權體制，不公也不是法學可以解決的。第三個，你說這可能會產生重中央忽略地方，這種劃分方法是否讓地方有參與決定權，是要思考的憲政問題。結論就是財政行使和分配是憲法學者和實務運作者的任務，我想實務運作者應該指的就是立法院，是我們的任務，沒錯吧？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：關於實務運作者，我的看法是中央跟地方應該協力。"],["陳委員玉珍：是我們的任務嘛！第二個，有關怎麼劃分，比如說以前是中央比較多，你認為雖然劃分不公，不管是中央多還是地方多，因為中央和地方有很多劃分不公，但這個也不是法學可以解決的，這是您之前提到的，沒錯吧？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是，這要政治、財政……"],["陳委員玉珍：這個不是法學可以解釋的，雖然可能會出現中央多，或者是我們這次修過以後地方多一點，還是中央多，但這些都不是法學可以解決的，要財政學者用實務來做規劃，沒錯吧？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以這根本就不是大法官可以解決的東西，不是大法官可以解釋的東西嘛！"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是，這應該是行政跟立法……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以財政收支劃分法送到司法院憲法法庭時，應該就不是憲法法庭可以接受的案子，因為這不是法學者可以解決的問題，這是你以前的觀念，你現在還是這樣的觀念嗎？你認為中央跟地方的財政劃分是立法委員的任務，這沒問題吧？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：從民意來講，要由中央跟地方協力來處理。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒錯、沒錯。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：第二個，再加上財政學者相關的看法……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，過程中我們有辦公聽會，有請財政學者來發表意見。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：再提出建議來讓中央跟地方協力解決。"],["陳委員玉珍：您之前認為縱使劃分不公也不是法學可以解決的，現在還是這樣的想法嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：劃分不公……因為財政、預算內容非常精算的部分，我們沒有辦法……"],["陳委員玉珍：是，所以這個不是法學可以解決的嘛！"],["陳慈陽被提名人：但如果專業可以補充，由專業來補充，由財政學者來處理。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，但是財政收支劃分法要釋憲的話，就不能受理，因為法學界並不能解決實務上的這些財政問題，對不對？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：但是法院可以請鑑定人……"],["陳委員玉珍：這是你以前的說法啊！"],["陳慈陽被提名人：對，但是可以請鑑定人。"],["陳委員玉珍：啊？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：可以請鑑定人，請財政學的學者專家鑑定。"],["陳委員玉珍：喔，可以請鑑定人。沒有，我的意思是，如果大法官人數夠的時候，釋憲可以受理呢？這不是法學可以解決的問題，你還是維持這樣的想法嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是，但是可以由鑑定人……"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝，因為時間很短，我現在再問一題，您剛有特別提到離島，我要特別跟您感謝，但是我想請教你這一題，您擔任考試委員的時候，從109年到113年的發言次數的比率分別是65%、39%、20%，就是11次、20次、10次，最後兩年是7次、7次，是不是因為那時候年改任務已了，後來什麼業務就不大需要說了，所以你後面兩年發言的次數相當少，只剩下7次，52場院會裡頭您只發言了7次，32場也只發言了7次，是因為業務已了的關係嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是，報告委員……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有需要再關心其他事情？因為任務……"],["陳慈陽被提名人：不是，很多政務不是在院會裡面，院會大概就是針對大家已經有共識的部分來解決……"],["陳委員玉珍：好，大家有共識就不用那個……那我想請問您剛剛所提的，我看書面報告沒有，但口頭報告有特別提到離島的部分……"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：您知道我是來自離島金門，關於我們離島地區特考規劃，考試院有開會吧？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：大家也都有共識，對不對？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：對，大家有共識。"],["陳委員玉珍：在考試院第13屆第138次會議，9位考試委員中，有8位發言支持或發言建議，你知道嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：9位裡面有8位發言，哪一位沒有發言？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，由於之前已經跟考選部溝通過，而且我全力贊成，所以我認為基本上我已經贊成了，就不需要在院會……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有，在離島特考中，您剛剛說這算是您在考試院的功績，但在離島特考的業務裡，9位考試委員裡，唯一沒有發言的就是陳慈陽教授！您對我們離島事務……因為您贊成，所以不用發言，是嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，委員的政治歷練非常豐厚，也知道很多事都需要大家事前的溝通協調……"],["陳委員玉珍：其他8個發言的，都是因為不贊成，所以來協調，是嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：不是、不是。其實我有很多問題在第一任時都已經全部說過了，所以不希望浪費院會的時間……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以9位委員有8位委員發言，有點浪費時間？9位裡只有您沒有發言。您剛才在口頭報告特別跟我說，您負責離島特考業務……"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，9位委員裡面有2位已經續任過了，7位沒有續任，所以我們希望讓……"],["陳委員玉珍：2位續任的不再發言，但其實另外一位也發言了……"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒關係，雖然沒有發言，但至少通過了，所以我在此跟您表示感謝，雖然不發言，但有所表示。我的發言時間到了，我們還有其他的委員……"],["陳慈陽被提名人：您可以詢問與離島相關的人事單位……"],["陳委員玉珍：希望您能維持一樣的風骨。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝被提名人的答詢。","下一位請林國成委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":532,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-4","speakers":["江啟臣","陳玉珍","林國成","劉建國","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","柯志恩","陳培瑜","陳昭姿","蘇巧慧","陳俊宇","牛煦庭","盧縣一"],"page_start":467,"meetingDate":["2025-07-14"],"gazette_id":"1146501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146501_00009","1146501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規\n定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並\n以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案（後接第二冊）","agenda_id":"1146501_00005"}}}