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\"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 1217.851, \"end\": 1218.091, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 1218.091, \"end\": 1218.231, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 1218.231, \"end\": 1218.351, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"哪\", \"start\": 1218.351, \"end\": 1218.491, \"score\": 0.702}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1218.491, \"end\": 1218.651, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 1218.651, \"end\": 1218.772, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1218.772, \"end\": 1218.892, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"代\", \"start\": 1218.892, \"end\": 1219.012, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"表\", \"start\": 1219.012, \"end\": 1219.332, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1219.332, \"end\": 1219.532, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1219.532, \"end\": 1219.872, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1219.872, \"end\": 1219.972, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1219.972, \"end\": 1220.232, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1220.232, \"end\": 1220.372, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 1220.372, \"end\": 1220.392, \"score\": 0.001}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,832 --> 00:00:09,937\n謝謝主席我們請陳備題名人請備題名人答詢\n\n2\n00:00:20,251 --> 00:00:39,285\n好我称你陈教授比较顺口一点以前的大法官是宣法的守护者事件的结果可以说是一言九鼎或是一锤定音因为目前的大法官他的角色其实引起非常多的争议我请陈老师你看一下\n\n3\n00:00:40,146 --> 00:00:57,094\n如果你有一天也成为他们其中的一员你认为你有什么差别是赫利基群与众不同让人民重新对司法燃起了一个希望还是你跟这群大法官一样是同声相应同气相求然后更扮演一个政权守护者的一个角色\n\n4\n00:00:58,101 --> 00:01:24,914\n報告委員大法官的職權任義務是在保障多元的自由民主憲政秩序所以說每一個法官的背景都是多元的包括專長、政治理念、價值理念等等這些而且以剛才跟前面的委員報告過的是每一個大法官基本上不是學者就是法官或檢察官\n\n5\n00:01:24,994 --> 00:01:51,017\n所以你们因为背景不同所以说你们会根据你们自己的背景提出对于很多条文上面的解释我今天要特别来引用这个前总统陈水扁说的他说大法官不能是万能的上帝他不要每件事情都要请大法官出来做公清很多政治的攻防朝野的攻防大法官最好不要再简入不然大法官的威信都会荡然无存也不要利用大法官献予其不义你赞同陈总统的说法吗\n\n6\n00:01:51,835 --> 00:02:01,415\n報告委員我可不可以稍微再說明一下可以嗎等一下我們等一下會有機會讓你說明所以我其實引用陳水扁的說法是要問你你認為司法要積極還是要消極\n\n7\n00:02:03,502 --> 00:02:29,986\n司法作為第三權本身就基於司法的本質是一個被動的而不是一個積極的角色積極的角色是在行政跟立法的這個部分但是我相信你從今天早上到現在我們都會認為你是一個憲法的學者說法不能夠出一十五不一樣因為你在書面回訓的時候不斷強調司法的一個消極性然後你覺得不能夠過度來積極但是大家都引用你過去的大作\n\n8\n00:02:30,486 --> 00:02:53,645\n你这本书从这个宪法法理的理论的司法院大法官事先的问题里面其中的一篇却表现我们的司法积极的主义的态度你甚至认为说大法官是宪法的拯救者不应该回避政治问题而且要针对基本的权争议的扮演一个救援者的角色所以难怪大家会质疑到底哪一个才是真正的你\n\n9\n00:02:54,506 --> 00:03:21,803\n報告委員我沒有講過拯救者救援者這是三個字沒有完全沒有我是認為憲法是一部政治性的法律所以說呢從人權保障一直到權限之類的都跟政治有關只不過在這個解釋過程它不應該一開始就拒絕而是在解釋過程當中如果遇到有政治力的話政治色彩的話你的解釋就應該到這裡為止例如我已經舉過很多例子像顧友江嶼的解釋\n\n10\n00:03:22,563 --> 00:03:50,113\n但是对不起对不起曾被提名人你既然在你的书当中宪法解释具有政治性是必然之理所以大法官不能一开始就以政治问题而拒绝解释否则就具为限制效果所以你认为在这个政治的层面上面你还是具有很大的一个积极性我只能说如果陈前总统在的话看了你的书的话他应该不会提名你因为你的期待你的写法跟他的期待是有些的落差的然后呢\n\n11\n00:03:50,453 --> 00:04:05,578\n你特别我们都还是得从你过去的著作来了解你整个的脉络你的思维然后呢这里面提到了大法官是宪政体制的把关者像你书中写的宪法解释具有正经性要保持中立和客观的确你有这么提到\n\n12\n00:04:06,098 --> 00:04:23,096\n但是呢你到底要如何來做這個所謂的中立跟客觀因為我看過你的這個口頭的報告還有你學經歷還有你參與公共行政的一些的成就但是你完全迴避你對民進黨的一個貢獻我們絕對相信你因為這些付出今天你才可以站在這個地方所以呢\n\n13\n00:04:23,536 --> 00:04:45,026\n我不觉得这有什么好不好说的吧你看你调列出来针调会的这个里面的诉讼代表还有呢在宪政改革当中呢你是演绎小组而且你跟我们很多很有名的独派大佬要立出要这个证明制宪那这种破例其实对很多学者来说其实是非常少见的而且更提出了这个所谓的中华民国第二共和的宪法\n\n14\n00:04:45,606 --> 00:05:02,511\n那既然是作為這個所謂的憲法的一個守護者我們應該對憲法應該百分百的忠誠但是呢這樣子的一個擁抱具有台獨傾向的一個制憲還有所謂第二共和憲法代表一個全新的憲政的一個秩序我覺得本質上是否定了現有的這個正當性\n\n15\n00:05:03,951 --> 00:05:25,920\n是不是報告委員我提倡的是憲政改革要把憲法裡面不妥當不適合經過這七次修憲以後混掉掉你還特別提到的七次修憲已經讓我們的憲法已經是殘破不堪已經非常的破碎這應該也是你在當學者時候的一個說法是不是這並不代表說我對憲政\n\n16\n00:05:26,980 --> 00:05:52,995\n學者的批判是絕對的因為學者當然是會有所批判既學術自由的保障但是我重點還是在憲政體制五權憲法三權憲法權力分立方面在憲政體制方面對人權的部分我也提出很多批判你特別提到因為我們現在不管是修憲或制憲非常的困難所以我們最好是用只能透過事先的方法才能夠讓這個憲法更具有一個完整性而且這裡面最重要的是你還主張在中國大陸制定之憲法\n\n17\n00:05:53,635 --> 00:06:16,338\n当时还没有台湾人民的同意所以在90年之前台湾不具有民主正当性我觉得这个说法跟我们赖总统在第三讲的时候1946年所通过的中华民国的宪法台湾没有派原仓家这是不谋而合的我觉得你跟赖总统的讲法是惺惺相依我都不晓得赖总统是参考你的著作还是有咨询过你的意见因为你们两个想法是差不多的\n\n18\n00:06:16,718 --> 00:06:44,716\n報告我人我是強調在中華民國憲法到台灣以後經過動員刊亂時期臨時條款的凍結以至於不具有民主正當性所以說你現在目前你現在目前為止那我現在簡單的問一句好的你未來要扮演所謂我們憲法的一個守護者所以你認同的是1946年前1946年頒布的憲法還是和賴總統一樣只承認90年後總統直選之後的憲法我們只簡單回答這個問題就可以報告我人\n\n19\n00:06:46,097 --> 00:07:03,489\n1990年只修改了幾個條文而已其餘都是1947年的憲法那當然我是尊重憲法既存在我只針對它修改的方式所以你就是同賴總統所說的目前的中華民國憲法應該是從2010年之後才來當作所以你不贊同他的這樣的一個說法就對了\n\n20\n00:07:07,455 --> 00:07:29,245\n1990年修憲也只不過十幾個條文其他還是依據1947年中華民國憲法的內容我覺得這是在意旨上面當然我們遵守的是統一不法律但是在這個意旨整個的一個最高位上裡面裡面我們還是要把它澄清清楚而且最主要我們來說你特別提到我會比較贊成的就是你提到憲政體制的設計必須符合權力制衡跟所謂的責任政治\n\n21\n00:07:29,605 --> 00:07:46,944\n为什么我问这个问题我们现在的五权有四权是被同一个政党所掌握的所以有没有办法达到所谓的权力制衡这东西是很重要的接下来我叫就教育为什么我问这个问题因为我们从民国37年开始历任32任的行政院长当然其中有三任是代理的\n\n22\n00:07:47,284 --> 00:08:12,331\n他共提出了19次的一個復議但是呢卓榮泰院長本身就提出了6次的一個復議而且復議被立法院否決之後呢他不僅沒有擔起這個責任政治的部分他還特別還要提出5次的這個事件你認為他有符合責任政治的這樣的一個原則嗎報告委員這是行政跟立法之間的政治行為這個政治行為大法官不應該去介入或者去關心的\n\n23\n00:08:13,263 --> 00:08:40,479\n这就是你刚刚所提到的在这个部分来说其实你书中写的跟你现在所回应的对我来说是有一点落差所以我们必须要把它澄清清楚所以我们就用一些比较具体的范例来特别提到的目前来说的话我们就行政院目前说对于禁法补偿刚有很多人问你还有警察人员的人事条例再提视线而且上礼拜我们通过的普罚现金一万块钱也考虑要来提出视线那我想请问陈教授\n\n24\n00:08:40,959 --> 00:09:07,155\n立法院透過法律案來增加支出你覺得有違反憲法第70條上面的規定嗎報告委員剛才已經跟幾位委員垂詢的時候回答基本上立法院認為這是法律案行政院認為這涉及到預算的規模所以有爭議爭議的時候呢大法官在520號解釋裡面就提供了所謂依據憲法增修條文第三條相關的\n\n25\n00:09:07,695 --> 00:09:24,250\n但是我还是要这个正义的部分里面我还是要把它理定清楚因为在7月9号司法院被提名人蔡秋明这个他就特别两座的表明立法院所提的包括禁法补偿包括过去的老农津贴他基本上认为是没有违宪的那你认为呢\n\n26\n00:09:24,890 --> 00:09:48,166\n基本上如果是法律案的話就立法院的立場是沒有違憲的是在法律案的層面上說所以這樣大家在法律案跟預算案大家都完全不是活在同一個時空當中我們今天為什麼要特別提出來因為呢普發現金我們只問一個特別條例行政院好像傾向於不釋憲我想他目前為止也不敢去釋憲他這次是要比照禁法補償條例裡面直接不編列預算\n\n27\n00:09:51,870 --> 00:09:56,206\n請問政院不依法編列特別預算的話過去大法官有沒有這樣的見解\n\n28\n00:09:57,810 --> 00:10:19,402\n520號解釋有提出依據憲法徵修條第3條第二項模式但是呢我覺得你看這就是我們引用的條文不一樣這次比禁法補償更嚴重的依照釋字第463號的一個解釋特別預算如果不合訂就要退回去因為如果政院不按照立法院通過特別條例來編列預算的話這才是一個違憲的部分\n\n29\n00:10:21,983 --> 00:10:38,874\n你看看463的解釋裡面他是這樣的說法的所以我們引用的條文是這一塊463的解釋是針對特別預算的部分現在的問題是立法院認為是法律案但是行政院認為這涉及到行政院的編列預算的權限\n\n30\n00:10:39,874 --> 00:11:05,614\n根据预算法第九十一条的规定也不是这样选法但是我要利用这个机会还是要特别提出来上周我们此次提到的特别预算的条例通过预算到底是如何来编列但还要由大院来做一个解释但我要是特别提醒了本来立法院就有这个立法主动行程权我们在制定特别条例的时候呢会另加这个条文然后呢这本就是我们所固定的条文\n\n31\n00:11:05,894 --> 00:11:21,125\n这固定的一个权限我要特别提醒来在过去90年的时候呢我们通过基隆河流域的特别预算那时候是由料水管委员所提出来柯建民总召当初还是联署人95年通过的石门水库的还有这个特别预算\n\n32\n00:11:21,505 --> 00:11:47,843\n是由林正峰委员提出来而且呢都是跟我们现在一样都要依照委员的提案通过特别条例之后再编略预算92年民进党党团那时候有我们的科技民族在这个所谓的严重这个我们的扫射时候我们防治基金500亿我们所做的99年那时候的提案人是赖清德我们要为增稳水库制造的特别条例现在所讲的跟过去所讲的都是一样\n\n33\n00:11:48,283 --> 00:12:03,131\n都完全是我們提出的特別條例之後委請行政院再編列預算請問這次為什麼我們所提出來你就認為是可能是有違憲之嫌過去所提出來完全過去程序都是一樣的報告委員我沒有說違憲之嫌因為\n\n34\n00:12:03,991 --> 00:12:20,663\n依據520號解釋基本上是兩院應該要依憲法的程序去解釋那是政治的問題大法官不處理這個政治問題那另外呢基本上所謂的行政現在我在書上也表示很清楚不管內閣制或總統制\n\n35\n00:12:21,864 --> 00:12:37,519\n現在已經沒有所謂行政立法的這個制衡的問題都是政黨政治所以政黨政治之下如果政黨能夠在憲政的體制之下協商完成的話那當然就不會有爭議的問題所以你認為我們所提出來目前來說\n\n36\n00:12:38,480 --> 00:13:00,095\n上次礼拜所提出来的这个所谓的普发现金这个部分以目前你的理解来说你认为跟过去我所调理了这么多过去的特别预算调理完之后的预算应该是符合一致的嘛如果之前可以的话这次应该也是可以嘛如果行政院再提出所谓的事件的话你应该认为这个是完全完全违反我们463号的一个解释嘛\n\n37\n00:13:00,695 --> 00:13:29,896\n因為這完全一樣的時光背景不一樣但是我們的程序是完全一樣的啊你必須要把這個程序把它搞清楚啊是報告委員基本上如果我剛才已經提到現在是一個政黨政治各個政黨如果同意的情形之下就不會有520號解釋裡面所謂要透過第三條第二項的部分去解決了那現在的問題跟以前可能是一樣的因為我沒有去細讀之前的那些預算案的部分一樣的\n\n38\n00:13:30,276 --> 00:13:47,763\n完全是一样的你应该去细读因为我们今天其实最需要的就是根据几个案例来提出你对于这个很多部分的解释而且最重要是我们现在的卓院长好像是事件已经上了瘾一样只要他提出他不喜欢的他就提事件目前像我们总预算案我们的才华法等等\n\n39\n00:13:48,463 --> 00:14:04,222\n而且呢他认为中国查特别问你而且你特别提到的你以前提过了行政机关如果提出提出自己的版本这是宪政惯例那以才化法来说的话行政院并没有提出自己的版本啊你认为他是不是违反了我们的这个宪政惯例\n\n40\n00:14:05,940 --> 00:14:27,268\n原則上憲政慣例都行政院會提但是行政院不提立法院當然有權去提出法律案那至於怎麼樣去議決就是基於政黨我現在只是強調你過去有特別提到行政機關提出自己的版本這本就是憲政慣例而行政院這次沒有我只問你是不是違反我們過去的行政慣例\n\n41\n00:14:28,072 --> 00:14:34,462\n有可能這個憲政慣例憲政慣例基本上是如果有中斷的話那當然就有可能\n\n42\n00:14:36,718 --> 00:15:01,406\n這個憲政慣例可能沒有憲政慣例的沒有拘束力這跟你過去的說法是不一樣嘛本來就要是提出來然後沒但這次就是沒提你就大膽的講我覺得陳昭吉人你看陳被提名人你是教授雖然你過去是學者的身份學者是言論自由但是我覺得應該帶著這樣的一個風火站在這個地方要當成一個大法官就要跟自己的過去都是有所一致性的報告委員因為法律學者是很嚴謹的\n\n43\n00:15:02,446 --> 00:15:25,550\n因為單純幾個舉句話我們要去做非常嚴謹的回答恐怕會有遲疑並不是我基於我自己本身立場去做任何回答因為剛才所提的這些問題還有很多配套等等那我就再跟你講一下你過去的一個前輩我們在大法官釋字第391號當中那時候大法官蘇俊雄跟劉鐵正他在不同一書裡面就提到\n\n44\n00:15:25,970 --> 00:15:48,346\n目前多事的解釋文并没有判断所谓违反责任政治跟权力分裂的一个标准所以说呢你如果单纯只用权限那个分离来切割提案权跟所谓议决权的话这完全会限锁我们立法院调整预算那个内容所以今天为什么有这么多预算出来为什么今天大家对于所提出的这个大法官的人选我们要非常的严格\n\n45\n00:15:48,766 --> 00:16:15,794\n因为当我们这么喜欢事件的院长把什么都放到你那边去之后你如果完全是根据执政党的意志然后来做出你这样一个诠释的话对我们所出来特别是目前这一党说是非常不公平的说我们为什么举出这么多的条例包括我刚刚所提出这么多在特别条例里面的这些过去的历史还包括现在我所告诉你的过去的大法官里面在第391号当中他就有做错的这样的一个诠释\n\n46\n00:16:16,434 --> 00:16:41,823\n你認為你過去的前輩這樣的說法你在同嗎報告委員我尊重剛才已經講到法律人對很多問題都要很嚴謹的回答但是有一個問題我可以很直率的跟委員報告我絕對會以超人的地位以我之前一直在貴黨團裡面所提到的很多的問題我都一直認為這是我學者的見解都提供給貴黨團的書面\n\n47\n00:16:43,764 --> 00:17:03,770\n但是陈教授学者的一个见解大家说是透过你过去的著作来了解你所以学者的见解跟你今天站在那边当做是一个被提名人我觉得某种程度的脉络是要一致的就诚如你过去一直不断强调你在当考试委员的时候你是超然立场我还是再次的强调考试委员所处理的性质跟我们大法官是不一样\n\n48\n00:17:04,150 --> 00:17:31,148\n特别是像此时此刻我们在目前来说没有一次有那么多的院长提出这么多政治性的所谓的视线这就是我们为什么对你过去的背景跟你现在的回答我们要严格的来做一个厘清这才是个最主要的一个目的我最后一个问题时间的关系你特别要要特别提到了啊所以当你引用了不同的一个法条的时候不断的当民进党的委员不断的在这个所谓的特别预算里面不断的提出宪法第70条的时候\n\n49\n00:17:31,488 --> 00:17:50,862\n我們就不斷的提出了憲法第63條還有包括等等這些都要透過大法官來幫我們做不同的一個釐清你之前也特別提到了美國總統叫國會議長下台就是一個憲政災難這是您過去所提到的在我們憲法的運作上面也是具有總統議會的特徵賴總統宣講的時候表示他要透過\n\n50\n00:17:56,946 --> 00:18:18,775\n選舉打掉的雜質然後在民進黨的代表大會當中他主張就是要公民一起來發動大罷免意義上好像就是你要透過主張改變立法院席次的一個結構來罷免我們的立法院院長那你認為這跟你過去所說的美國總統叫國會長下台是憲政災難這不覺得也是整個脈絡上也完全是不斷的一個相近的嗎\n\n51\n00:18:19,824 --> 00:18:49,304\n如果以總統身份的確是不適宜的但是如果個人的話他有言人自由他今天就是總統啊他今天賴清德就是個總統他怎麼會是個人呢他今天所講的每一句話就代表總統的角度來做一個發言我覺得透過這樣一個宣講然後呢藉由這樣的部分來改變國會的結構然後來換掉我們的立法院長我個人認為這個就是憲政災難這就是您過去所主張的是一樣但是你沒有覺得我們現在整個的台灣社會慢慢往這個方面來做一個趨近這是我們比較擔心的\n\n52\n00:18:51,825 --> 00:19:07,336\n我還是維持我與一貫的學者之前所說的立場你現在又變成學者了哇塞我真的常常在你的學者跟這個被提名之間的一個角色我常常會覺得有點confused當你提到這個言論自由當你提到人權的時候你認為這是當你提到你過去的時候是一個比較積極\n\n53\n00:19:08,417 --> 00:19:25,425\n對於這個所謂的憲法應該要站在一個第一線上對於政治問題裡面你不能夠迴避可是當現在你所寫的這些所謂的書面跟你回應我的問題的時候你又變成是比較認為應該是退居不要變成一個公親是一個比較消極的角色所以到底哪一個才是我們現在所認知的這個陳昭平\n\n54\n00:19:26,745 --> 00:19:29,107\n你用辦法做到嗎?我覺得這就是我們最\n\n55\n00:19:43,215 --> 00:20:03,665\n非常非常质疑的一个跟过去的一个背景虽然你不断的提出来你这是考试委员我还是强调考试委员跟大法官所强调的所面对的事务是完完全全不一样大法官不起为神他应该是很超然的过去我们也从来没有跟大法官有这么多的这样子的一个面对面的这样一个一个接触或者是透过宪法法庭里面来做出很多的政治攻防\n\n56\n00:20:04,005 --> 00:20:20,392\n可是現在到底是誰讓他變成把你們每一個人都要被問到都要被質疑到底你的政治立場上面有沒有這樣的不斷的一個偏頗這個就是一個我們目前正在這個地方大家對於您過去跟現在一定要搞清楚到底哪一個才是代表你的這樣的一個部分\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7832\t9937\t謝謝主席 我們請陳備題名人請備題名人答詢\n20251\t39285\t好 我称你陈教授比较顺口一点以前的大法官是宣法的守护者事件的结果可以说是一言九鼎或是一锤定音因为目前的大法官他的角色其实引起非常多的争议我请陈老师你看一下\n40146\t57094\t如果你有一天也成为他们其中的一员你认为你有什么差别是赫利基群与众不同让人民重新对司法燃起了一个希望还是你跟这群大法官一样是同声相应同气相求然后更扮演一个政权守护者的一个角色\n58101\t84914\t報告委員大法官的職權 任義務是在保障多元的自由民主憲政秩序所以說每一個法官的背景都是多元的包括專長、政治理念、價值理念等等這些而且以剛才跟前面的委員報告過的是每一個大法官基本上不是學者就是法官或檢察官\n84994\t111017\t所以你们因为背景不同所以说你们会根据你们自己的背景提出对于很多条文上面的解释我今天要特别来引用这个前总统陈水扁说的他说大法官不能是万能的上帝他不要每件事情都要请大法官出来做公清很多政治的攻防朝野的攻防大法官最好不要再简入不然大法官的威信都会荡然无存也不要利用大法官献予其不义你赞同陈总统的说法吗\n111835\t121415\t報告委員我可不可以稍微再說明一下可以嗎等一下我們等一下會有機會讓你說明所以我其實引用陳水扁的說法是要問你你認為司法要積極還是要消極\n123502\t149986\t司法作為第三權本身就基於司法的本質是一個被動的而不是一個積極的角色積極的角色是在行政跟立法的這個部分但是我相信你從今天早上到現在我們都會認為你是一個憲法的學者說法不能夠出一十五不一樣因為你在書面回訓的時候不斷強調司法的一個消極性然後你覺得不能夠過度來積極但是大家都引用你過去的大作\n150486\t173645\t你这本书从这个宪法法理的理论的司法院大法官事先的问题里面其中的一篇却表现我们的司法积极的主义的态度你甚至认为说大法官是宪法的拯救者不应该回避政治问题而且要针对基本的权争议的扮演一个救援者的角色所以难怪大家会质疑到底哪一个才是真正的你\n174506\t201803\t報告委員我沒有講過拯救者救援者這是三個字沒有完全沒有我是認為憲法是一部政治性的法律所以說呢從人權保障一直到權限之類的都跟政治有關只不過在這個解釋過程它不應該一開始就拒絕而是在解釋過程當中如果遇到有政治力的話政治色彩的話你的解釋就應該到這裡為止例如我已經舉過很多例子像顧友江嶼的解釋\n202563\t230113\t但是对不起对不起曾被提名人你既然在你的书当中宪法解释具有政治性是必然之理所以大法官不能一开始就以政治问题而拒绝解释否则就具为限制效果所以你认为在这个政治的层面上面你还是具有很大的一个积极性我只能说如果陈前总统在的话看了你的书的话他应该不会提名你因为你的期待你的写法跟他的期待是有些的落差的然后呢\n230453\t245578\t你特别我们都还是得从你过去的著作来了解你整个的脉络你的思维然后呢这里面提到了大法官是宪政体制的把关者像你书中写的宪法解释具有正经性要保持中立和客观的确你有这么提到\n246098\t263096\t但是呢你到底要如何來做這個所謂的中立跟客觀因為我看過你的這個口頭的報告還有你學經歷還有你參與公共行政的一些的成就但是你完全迴避你對民進黨的一個貢獻我們絕對相信你因為這些付出今天你才可以站在這個地方所以呢\n263536\t285026\t我不觉得这有什么好不好说的吧你看你调列出来针调会的这个里面的诉讼代表还有呢在宪政改革当中呢你是演绎小组而且你跟我们很多很有名的独派大佬要立出要这个证明制宪那这种破例其实对很多学者来说其实是非常少见的而且更提出了这个所谓的中华民国第二共和的宪法\n285606\t302511\t那既然是作為這個所謂的憲法的一個守護者我們應該對憲法應該百分百的忠誠但是呢 這樣子的一個擁抱具有台獨傾向的一個制憲還有所謂第二共和憲法代表一個全新的憲政的一個秩序我覺得本質上是否定了現有的這個正當性\n303951\t325920\t是不是報告委員我提倡的是憲政改革要把憲法裡面不妥當不適合經過這七次修憲以後混掉掉你還特別提到的七次修憲已經讓我們的憲法已經是殘破不堪已經非常的破碎這應該也是你在當學者時候的一個說法是不是這並不代表說我對憲政\n326980\t352995\t學者的批判是絕對的因為學者當然是會有所批判既學術自由的保障但是我重點還是在憲政體制五權憲法三權憲法權力分立方面在憲政體制方面對人權的部分我也提出很多批判你特別提到因為我們現在不管是修憲或制憲非常的困難所以我們最好是用只能透過事先的方法才能夠讓這個憲法更具有一個完整性而且這裡面最重要的是你還主張在中國大陸制定之憲法\n353635\t376338\t当时还没有台湾人民的同意所以在90年之前台湾不具有民主正当性我觉得这个说法跟我们赖总统在第三讲的时候1946年所通过的中华民国的宪法台湾没有派原仓家这是不谋而合的我觉得你跟赖总统的讲法是惺惺相依我都不晓得赖总统是参考你的著作还是有咨询过你的意见因为你们两个想法是差不多的\n376718\t404716\t報告我人我是強調在中華民國憲法到台灣以後經過動員刊亂時期臨時條款的凍結以至於不具有民主正當性所以說你現在目前你現在目前為止那我現在簡單的問一句好的你未來要扮演所謂我們憲法的一個守護者所以你認同的是1946年前1946年頒布的憲法還是和賴總統一樣只承認90年後總統直選之後的憲法我們只簡單回答這個問題就可以報告我人\n406097\t423489\t1990年只修改了幾個條文而已其餘都是1947年的憲法那當然我是尊重憲法既存在我只針對它修改的方式所以你就是同賴總統所說的目前的中華民國憲法應該是從2010年之後才來當作所以你不贊同他的這樣的一個說法就對了\n427455\t449245\t1990年修憲也只不過十幾個條文其他還是依據1947年中華民國憲法的內容我覺得這是在意旨上面當然我們遵守的是統一不法律但是在這個意旨整個的一個最高位上裡面裡面我們還是要把它澄清清楚而且最主要我們來說你特別提到我會比較贊成的就是你提到憲政體制的設計必須符合權力制衡跟所謂的責任政治\n449605\t466944\t为什么我问这个问题我们现在的五权有四权是被同一个政党所掌握的所以有没有办法达到所谓的权力制衡这东西是很重要的接下来我叫就教育为什么我问这个问题因为我们从民国37年开始历任32任的行政院长当然其中有三任是代理的\n467284\t492331\t他共提出了19次的一個復議但是呢卓榮泰院長本身就提出了6次的一個復議而且復議被立法院否決之後呢他不僅沒有擔起這個責任政治的部分他還特別還要提出5次的這個事件你認為他有符合責任政治的這樣的一個原則嗎報告委員這是行政跟立法之間的政治行為這個政治行為大法官不應該去介入或者去關心的\n493263\t520479\t这就是你刚刚所提到的在这个部分来说其实你书中写的跟你现在所回应的对我来说是有一点落差所以我们必须要把它澄清清楚所以我们就用一些比较具体的范例来特别提到的目前来说的话我们就行政院目前说对于禁法补偿刚有很多人问你还有警察人员的人事条例再提视线而且上礼拜我们通过的普罚现金一万块钱也考虑要来提出视线那我想请问陈教授\n520959\t547155\t立法院透過法律案來增加支出你覺得有違反憲法第70條上面的規定嗎報告委員剛才已經跟幾位委員垂詢的時候回答基本上立法院認為這是法律案行政院認為這涉及到預算的規模所以有爭議爭議的時候呢大法官在520號解釋裡面就提供了所謂依據憲法增修條文第三條相關的\n547695\t564250\t但是我还是要这个正义的部分里面我还是要把它理定清楚因为在7月9号司法院被提名人蔡秋明这个他就特别两座的表明立法院所提的包括禁法补偿包括过去的老农津贴他基本上认为是没有违宪的那你认为呢\n564890\t588166\t基本上如果是法律案的話就立法院的立場是沒有違憲的是在法律案的層面上說所以這樣大家在法律案跟預算案大家都完全不是活在同一個時空當中我們今天為什麼要特別提出來因為呢普發現金我們只問一個特別條例行政院好像傾向於不釋憲我想他目前為止也不敢去釋憲他這次是要比照禁法補償條例裡面直接不編列預算\n591870\t596206\t請問政院不依法編列特別預算的話過去大法官有沒有這樣的見解\n597810\t619402\t520號解釋有提出依據憲法徵修條第3條第二項模式但是呢我覺得你看這就是我們引用的條文不一樣這次比禁法補償更嚴重的依照釋字第463號的一個解釋特別預算如果不合訂就要退回去因為如果政院不按照立法院通過特別條例來編列預算的話這才是一個違憲的部分\n621983\t638874\t你看看463的解釋裡面他是這樣的說法的所以我們引用的條文是這一塊463的解釋是針對特別預算的部分現在的問題是立法院認為是法律案但是行政院認為這涉及到行政院的編列預算的權限\n639874\t665614\t根据预算法第九十一条的规定也不是这样选法但是我要利用这个机会还是要特别提出来上周我们此次提到的特别预算的条例通过预算到底是如何来编列但还要由大院来做一个解释但我要是特别提醒了本来立法院就有这个立法主动行程权我们在制定特别条例的时候呢会另加这个条文然后呢这本就是我们所固定的条文\n665894\t681125\t这固定的一个权限我要特别提醒来在过去90年的时候呢我们通过基隆河流域的特别预算那时候是由料水管委员所提出来柯建民总召当初还是联署人95年通过的石门水库的还有这个特别预算\n681505\t707843\t是由林正峰委员提出来而且呢都是跟我们现在一样都要依照委员的提案通过特别条例之后再编略预算92年民进党党团那时候有我们的科技民族在这个所谓的严重这个我们的扫射时候我们防治基金500亿我们所做的99年那时候的提案人是赖清德我们要为增稳水库制造的特别条例现在所讲的跟过去所讲的都是一样\n708283\t723131\t都完全是我們提出的特別條例之後委請行政院再編列預算請問這次為什麼我們所提出來你就認為是可能是有違憲之嫌過去所提出來完全過去程序都是一樣的報告委員我沒有說違憲之嫌因為\n723991\t740663\t依據520號解釋基本上是兩院應該要依憲法的程序去解釋那是政治的問題大法官不處理這個政治問題那另外呢基本上所謂的行政現在我在書上也表示很清楚不管內閣制或總統制\n741864\t757519\t現在已經沒有所謂行政立法的這個制衡的問題都是政黨政治所以政黨政治之下如果政黨能夠在憲政的體制之下協商完成的話那當然就不會有爭議的問題所以你認為我們所提出來目前來說\n758480\t780095\t上次礼拜所提出来的这个所谓的普发现金这个部分以目前你的理解来说你认为跟过去我所调理了这么多过去的特别预算调理完之后的预算应该是符合一致的嘛如果之前可以的话这次应该也是可以嘛如果行政院再提出所谓的事件的话你应该认为这个是完全完全违反我们463号的一个解释嘛\n780695\t809896\t因為這完全一樣的 時光背景不一樣但是我們的程序是完全一樣的啊你必須要把這個程序把它搞清楚啊是 報告委員 基本上如果我剛才已經提到現在是一個政黨政治各個政黨如果同意的情形之下就不會有520號解釋裡面所謂要透過第三條第二項的部分去解決了那現在的問題跟以前可能是一樣的因為我沒有去細讀之前的那些預算案的部分一樣的\n810276\t827763\t完全是一样的你应该去细读因为我们今天其实最需要的就是根据几个案例来提出你对于这个很多部分的解释而且最重要是我们现在的卓院长好像是事件已经上了瘾一样只要他提出他不喜欢的他就提事件目前像我们总预算案我们的才华法等等\n828463\t844222\t而且呢他认为中国查特别问你而且你特别提到的你以前提过了行政机关如果提出提出自己的版本这是宪政惯例那以才化法来说的话行政院并没有提出自己的版本啊你认为他是不是违反了我们的这个宪政惯例\n845940\t867268\t原則上憲政慣例都行政院會提但是行政院不提立法院當然有權去提出法律案那至於怎麼樣去議決就是基於政黨我現在只是強調你過去有特別提到行政機關提出自己的版本這本就是憲政慣例而行政院這次沒有我只問你是不是違反我們過去的行政慣例\n868072\t874462\t有可能這個憲政慣例憲政慣例基本上是如果有中斷的話那當然就有可能\n876718\t901406\t這個憲政慣例可能沒有 憲政慣例的沒有拘束力這跟你過去的說法是不一樣嘛 本來就要是提出來 然後沒但這次就是沒提 你就大膽的講 我覺得陳昭吉人 你看陳被提名人 你是教授雖然你過去是學者的身份 學者是言論自由但是我覺得應該帶著這樣的一個風火 站在這個地方要當成一個大法官 就要跟自己的過去都是有所一致性的報告委員 因為法律學者是很嚴謹的\n902446\t925550\t因為單純幾個舉句話我們要去做非常嚴謹的回答恐怕會有遲疑並不是我基於我自己本身立場去做任何回答因為剛才所提的這些問題還有很多配套等等那我就再跟你講一下你過去的一個前輩我們在大法官釋字第391號當中那時候大法官蘇俊雄跟劉鐵正他在不同一書裡面就提到\n925970\t948346\t目前多事的解釋文并没有判断所谓违反责任政治跟权力分裂的一个标准所以说呢你如果单纯只用权限那个分离来切割提案权跟所谓议决权的话这完全会限锁我们立法院调整预算那个内容所以今天为什么有这么多预算出来为什么今天大家对于所提出的这个大法官的人选我们要非常的严格\n948766\t975794\t因为当我们这么喜欢事件的院长把什么都放到你那边去之后你如果完全是根据执政党的意志然后来做出你这样一个诠释的话对我们所出来特别是目前这一党说是非常不公平的说我们为什么举出这么多的条例包括我刚刚所提出这么多在特别条例里面的这些过去的历史还包括现在我所告诉你的过去的大法官里面在第391号当中他就有做错的这样的一个诠释\n976434\t1001823\t你認為你過去的前輩這樣的說法你在同嗎報告委員我尊重剛才已經講到法律人對很多問題都要很嚴謹的回答但是有一個問題我可以很直率的跟委員報告我絕對會以超人的地位以我之前一直在貴黨團裡面所提到的很多的問題我都一直認為這是我學者的見解都提供給貴黨團的書面\n1003764\t1023770\t但是陈教授学者的一个见解大家说是透过你过去的著作来了解你所以学者的见解跟你今天站在那边当做是一个被提名人我觉得某种程度的脉络是要一致的就诚如你过去一直不断强调你在当考试委员的时候你是超然立场我还是再次的强调考试委员所处理的性质跟我们大法官是不一样\n1024150\t1051148\t特别是像此时此刻我们在目前来说没有一次有那么多的院长提出这么多政治性的所谓的视线这就是我们为什么对你过去的背景跟你现在的回答我们要严格的来做一个厘清这才是个最主要的一个目的我最后一个问题时间的关系你特别要要特别提到了啊所以当你引用了不同的一个法条的时候不断的当民进党的委员不断的在这个所谓的特别预算里面不断的提出宪法第70条的时候\n1051488\t1070862\t我們就不斷的提出了憲法第63條還有包括等等這些都要透過大法官來幫我們做不同的一個釐清你之前也特別提到了美國總統叫國會議長下台就是一個憲政災難這是您過去所提到的在我們憲法的運作上面也是具有總統議會的特徵賴總統宣講的時候表示他要透過\n1076946\t1098775\t選舉打掉的雜質然後在民進黨的代表大會當中他主張就是要公民一起來發動大罷免意義上好像就是你要透過主張改變立法院席次的一個結構來罷免我們的立法院院長那你認為這跟你過去所說的美國總統叫國會長下台是憲政災難這不覺得也是整個脈絡上也完全是不斷的一個相近的嗎\n1099824\t1129304\t如果以總統身份的確是不適宜的但是如果個人的話他有言人自由他今天就是總統啊他今天賴清德就是個總統他怎麼會是個人呢他今天所講的每一句話就代表總統的角度來做一個發言我覺得透過這樣一個宣講然後呢藉由這樣的部分來改變國會的結構然後來換掉我們的立法院長我個人認為這個就是憲政災難這就是您過去所主張的是一樣但是你沒有覺得我們現在整個的台灣社會慢慢往這個方面來做一個趨近這是我們比較擔心的\n1131825\t1147336\t我還是維持我與一貫的學者之前所說的立場你現在又變成學者了哇塞我真的常常在你的學者跟這個被提名之間的一個角色我常常會覺得有點confused當你提到這個言論自由當你提到人權的時候你認為這是當你提到你過去的時候是一個比較積極\n1148417\t1165425\t對於這個所謂的憲法應該要站在一個第一線上對於政治問題裡面你不能夠迴避可是當現在你所寫的這些所謂的書面跟你回應我的問題的時候你又變成是比較認為應該是退居不要變成一個公親是一個比較消極的角色所以到底哪一個才是我們現在所認知的這個陳昭平\n1166745\t1169107\t你用辦法做到嗎?我覺得這就是我們最\n1183215\t1203665\t非常非常质疑的一个跟过去的一个背景虽然你不断的提出来你这是考试委员我还是强调考试委员跟大法官所强调的所面对的事务是完完全全不一样大法官不起为神他应该是很超然的过去我们也从来没有跟大法官有这么多的这样子的一个面对面的这样一个一个接触或者是透过宪法法庭里面来做出很多的政治攻防\n1204005\t1220392\t可是現在到底是誰讓他變成把你們每一個人都要被問到都要被質疑到底你的政治立場上面有沒有這樣的不斷的一個偏頗這個就是一個我們目前正在這個地方大家對於您過去跟現在一定要搞清楚到底哪一個才是代表你的這樣的一個部分\n","txt":"謝謝主席 我們請陳備題名人請備題名人答詢\n好 我称你陈教授比较顺口一点以前的大法官是宣法的守护者事件的结果可以说是一言九鼎或是一锤定音因为目前的大法官他的角色其实引起非常多的争议我请陈老师你看一下\n如果你有一天也成为他们其中的一员你认为你有什么差别是赫利基群与众不同让人民重新对司法燃起了一个希望还是你跟这群大法官一样是同声相应同气相求然后更扮演一个政权守护者的一个角色\n報告委員大法官的職權 任義務是在保障多元的自由民主憲政秩序所以說每一個法官的背景都是多元的包括專長、政治理念、價值理念等等這些而且以剛才跟前面的委員報告過的是每一個大法官基本上不是學者就是法官或檢察官\n所以你们因为背景不同所以说你们会根据你们自己的背景提出对于很多条文上面的解释我今天要特别来引用这个前总统陈水扁说的他说大法官不能是万能的上帝他不要每件事情都要请大法官出来做公清很多政治的攻防朝野的攻防大法官最好不要再简入不然大法官的威信都会荡然无存也不要利用大法官献予其不义你赞同陈总统的说法吗\n報告委員我可不可以稍微再說明一下可以嗎等一下我們等一下會有機會讓你說明所以我其實引用陳水扁的說法是要問你你認為司法要積極還是要消極\n司法作為第三權本身就基於司法的本質是一個被動的而不是一個積極的角色積極的角色是在行政跟立法的這個部分但是我相信你從今天早上到現在我們都會認為你是一個憲法的學者說法不能夠出一十五不一樣因為你在書面回訓的時候不斷強調司法的一個消極性然後你覺得不能夠過度來積極但是大家都引用你過去的大作\n你这本书从这个宪法法理的理论的司法院大法官事先的问题里面其中的一篇却表现我们的司法积极的主义的态度你甚至认为说大法官是宪法的拯救者不应该回避政治问题而且要针对基本的权争议的扮演一个救援者的角色所以难怪大家会质疑到底哪一个才是真正的你\n報告委員我沒有講過拯救者救援者這是三個字沒有完全沒有我是認為憲法是一部政治性的法律所以說呢從人權保障一直到權限之類的都跟政治有關只不過在這個解釋過程它不應該一開始就拒絕而是在解釋過程當中如果遇到有政治力的話政治色彩的話你的解釋就應該到這裡為止例如我已經舉過很多例子像顧友江嶼的解釋\n但是对不起对不起曾被提名人你既然在你的书当中宪法解释具有政治性是必然之理所以大法官不能一开始就以政治问题而拒绝解释否则就具为限制效果所以你认为在这个政治的层面上面你还是具有很大的一个积极性我只能说如果陈前总统在的话看了你的书的话他应该不会提名你因为你的期待你的写法跟他的期待是有些的落差的然后呢\n你特别我们都还是得从你过去的著作来了解你整个的脉络你的思维然后呢这里面提到了大法官是宪政体制的把关者像你书中写的宪法解释具有正经性要保持中立和客观的确你有这么提到\n但是呢你到底要如何來做這個所謂的中立跟客觀因為我看過你的這個口頭的報告還有你學經歷還有你參與公共行政的一些的成就但是你完全迴避你對民進黨的一個貢獻我們絕對相信你因為這些付出今天你才可以站在這個地方所以呢\n我不觉得这有什么好不好说的吧你看你调列出来针调会的这个里面的诉讼代表还有呢在宪政改革当中呢你是演绎小组而且你跟我们很多很有名的独派大佬要立出要这个证明制宪那这种破例其实对很多学者来说其实是非常少见的而且更提出了这个所谓的中华民国第二共和的宪法\n那既然是作為這個所謂的憲法的一個守護者我們應該對憲法應該百分百的忠誠但是呢 這樣子的一個擁抱具有台獨傾向的一個制憲還有所謂第二共和憲法代表一個全新的憲政的一個秩序我覺得本質上是否定了現有的這個正當性\n是不是報告委員我提倡的是憲政改革要把憲法裡面不妥當不適合經過這七次修憲以後混掉掉你還特別提到的七次修憲已經讓我們的憲法已經是殘破不堪已經非常的破碎這應該也是你在當學者時候的一個說法是不是這並不代表說我對憲政\n學者的批判是絕對的因為學者當然是會有所批判既學術自由的保障但是我重點還是在憲政體制五權憲法三權憲法權力分立方面在憲政體制方面對人權的部分我也提出很多批判你特別提到因為我們現在不管是修憲或制憲非常的困難所以我們最好是用只能透過事先的方法才能夠讓這個憲法更具有一個完整性而且這裡面最重要的是你還主張在中國大陸制定之憲法\n当时还没有台湾人民的同意所以在90年之前台湾不具有民主正当性我觉得这个说法跟我们赖总统在第三讲的时候1946年所通过的中华民国的宪法台湾没有派原仓家这是不谋而合的我觉得你跟赖总统的讲法是惺惺相依我都不晓得赖总统是参考你的著作还是有咨询过你的意见因为你们两个想法是差不多的\n報告我人我是強調在中華民國憲法到台灣以後經過動員刊亂時期臨時條款的凍結以至於不具有民主正當性所以說你現在目前你現在目前為止那我現在簡單的問一句好的你未來要扮演所謂我們憲法的一個守護者所以你認同的是1946年前1946年頒布的憲法還是和賴總統一樣只承認90年後總統直選之後的憲法我們只簡單回答這個問題就可以報告我人\n1990年只修改了幾個條文而已其餘都是1947年的憲法那當然我是尊重憲法既存在我只針對它修改的方式所以你就是同賴總統所說的目前的中華民國憲法應該是從2010年之後才來當作所以你不贊同他的這樣的一個說法就對了\n1990年修憲也只不過十幾個條文其他還是依據1947年中華民國憲法的內容我覺得這是在意旨上面當然我們遵守的是統一不法律但是在這個意旨整個的一個最高位上裡面裡面我們還是要把它澄清清楚而且最主要我們來說你特別提到我會比較贊成的就是你提到憲政體制的設計必須符合權力制衡跟所謂的責任政治\n为什么我问这个问题我们现在的五权有四权是被同一个政党所掌握的所以有没有办法达到所谓的权力制衡这东西是很重要的接下来我叫就教育为什么我问这个问题因为我们从民国37年开始历任32任的行政院长当然其中有三任是代理的\n他共提出了19次的一個復議但是呢卓榮泰院長本身就提出了6次的一個復議而且復議被立法院否決之後呢他不僅沒有擔起這個責任政治的部分他還特別還要提出5次的這個事件你認為他有符合責任政治的這樣的一個原則嗎報告委員這是行政跟立法之間的政治行為這個政治行為大法官不應該去介入或者去關心的\n这就是你刚刚所提到的在这个部分来说其实你书中写的跟你现在所回应的对我来说是有一点落差所以我们必须要把它澄清清楚所以我们就用一些比较具体的范例来特别提到的目前来说的话我们就行政院目前说对于禁法补偿刚有很多人问你还有警察人员的人事条例再提视线而且上礼拜我们通过的普罚现金一万块钱也考虑要来提出视线那我想请问陈教授\n立法院透過法律案來增加支出你覺得有違反憲法第70條上面的規定嗎報告委員剛才已經跟幾位委員垂詢的時候回答基本上立法院認為這是法律案行政院認為這涉及到預算的規模所以有爭議爭議的時候呢大法官在520號解釋裡面就提供了所謂依據憲法增修條文第三條相關的\n但是我还是要这个正义的部分里面我还是要把它理定清楚因为在7月9号司法院被提名人蔡秋明这个他就特别两座的表明立法院所提的包括禁法补偿包括过去的老农津贴他基本上认为是没有违宪的那你认为呢\n基本上如果是法律案的話就立法院的立場是沒有違憲的是在法律案的層面上說所以這樣大家在法律案跟預算案大家都完全不是活在同一個時空當中我們今天為什麼要特別提出來因為呢普發現金我們只問一個特別條例行政院好像傾向於不釋憲我想他目前為止也不敢去釋憲他這次是要比照禁法補償條例裡面直接不編列預算\n請問政院不依法編列特別預算的話過去大法官有沒有這樣的見解\n520號解釋有提出依據憲法徵修條第3條第二項模式但是呢我覺得你看這就是我們引用的條文不一樣這次比禁法補償更嚴重的依照釋字第463號的一個解釋特別預算如果不合訂就要退回去因為如果政院不按照立法院通過特別條例來編列預算的話這才是一個違憲的部分\n你看看463的解釋裡面他是這樣的說法的所以我們引用的條文是這一塊463的解釋是針對特別預算的部分現在的問題是立法院認為是法律案但是行政院認為這涉及到行政院的編列預算的權限\n根据预算法第九十一条的规定也不是这样选法但是我要利用这个机会还是要特别提出来上周我们此次提到的特别预算的条例通过预算到底是如何来编列但还要由大院来做一个解释但我要是特别提醒了本来立法院就有这个立法主动行程权我们在制定特别条例的时候呢会另加这个条文然后呢这本就是我们所固定的条文\n这固定的一个权限我要特别提醒来在过去90年的时候呢我们通过基隆河流域的特别预算那时候是由料水管委员所提出来柯建民总召当初还是联署人95年通过的石门水库的还有这个特别预算\n是由林正峰委员提出来而且呢都是跟我们现在一样都要依照委员的提案通过特别条例之后再编略预算92年民进党党团那时候有我们的科技民族在这个所谓的严重这个我们的扫射时候我们防治基金500亿我们所做的99年那时候的提案人是赖清德我们要为增稳水库制造的特别条例现在所讲的跟过去所讲的都是一样\n都完全是我們提出的特別條例之後委請行政院再編列預算請問這次為什麼我們所提出來你就認為是可能是有違憲之嫌過去所提出來完全過去程序都是一樣的報告委員我沒有說違憲之嫌因為\n依據520號解釋基本上是兩院應該要依憲法的程序去解釋那是政治的問題大法官不處理這個政治問題那另外呢基本上所謂的行政現在我在書上也表示很清楚不管內閣制或總統制\n現在已經沒有所謂行政立法的這個制衡的問題都是政黨政治所以政黨政治之下如果政黨能夠在憲政的體制之下協商完成的話那當然就不會有爭議的問題所以你認為我們所提出來目前來說\n上次礼拜所提出来的这个所谓的普发现金这个部分以目前你的理解来说你认为跟过去我所调理了这么多过去的特别预算调理完之后的预算应该是符合一致的嘛如果之前可以的话这次应该也是可以嘛如果行政院再提出所谓的事件的话你应该认为这个是完全完全违反我们463号的一个解释嘛\n因為這完全一樣的 時光背景不一樣但是我們的程序是完全一樣的啊你必須要把這個程序把它搞清楚啊是 報告委員 基本上如果我剛才已經提到現在是一個政黨政治各個政黨如果同意的情形之下就不會有520號解釋裡面所謂要透過第三條第二項的部分去解決了那現在的問題跟以前可能是一樣的因為我沒有去細讀之前的那些預算案的部分一樣的\n完全是一样的你应该去细读因为我们今天其实最需要的就是根据几个案例来提出你对于这个很多部分的解释而且最重要是我们现在的卓院长好像是事件已经上了瘾一样只要他提出他不喜欢的他就提事件目前像我们总预算案我们的才华法等等\n而且呢他认为中国查特别问你而且你特别提到的你以前提过了行政机关如果提出提出自己的版本这是宪政惯例那以才化法来说的话行政院并没有提出自己的版本啊你认为他是不是违反了我们的这个宪政惯例\n原則上憲政慣例都行政院會提但是行政院不提立法院當然有權去提出法律案那至於怎麼樣去議決就是基於政黨我現在只是強調你過去有特別提到行政機關提出自己的版本這本就是憲政慣例而行政院這次沒有我只問你是不是違反我們過去的行政慣例\n有可能這個憲政慣例憲政慣例基本上是如果有中斷的話那當然就有可能\n這個憲政慣例可能沒有 憲政慣例的沒有拘束力這跟你過去的說法是不一樣嘛 本來就要是提出來 然後沒但這次就是沒提 你就大膽的講 我覺得陳昭吉人 你看陳被提名人 你是教授雖然你過去是學者的身份 學者是言論自由但是我覺得應該帶著這樣的一個風火 站在這個地方要當成一個大法官 就要跟自己的過去都是有所一致性的報告委員 因為法律學者是很嚴謹的\n因為單純幾個舉句話我們要去做非常嚴謹的回答恐怕會有遲疑並不是我基於我自己本身立場去做任何回答因為剛才所提的這些問題還有很多配套等等那我就再跟你講一下你過去的一個前輩我們在大法官釋字第391號當中那時候大法官蘇俊雄跟劉鐵正他在不同一書裡面就提到\n目前多事的解釋文并没有判断所谓违反责任政治跟权力分裂的一个标准所以说呢你如果单纯只用权限那个分离来切割提案权跟所谓议决权的话这完全会限锁我们立法院调整预算那个内容所以今天为什么有这么多预算出来为什么今天大家对于所提出的这个大法官的人选我们要非常的严格\n因为当我们这么喜欢事件的院长把什么都放到你那边去之后你如果完全是根据执政党的意志然后来做出你这样一个诠释的话对我们所出来特别是目前这一党说是非常不公平的说我们为什么举出这么多的条例包括我刚刚所提出这么多在特别条例里面的这些过去的历史还包括现在我所告诉你的过去的大法官里面在第391号当中他就有做错的这样的一个诠释\n你認為你過去的前輩這樣的說法你在同嗎報告委員我尊重剛才已經講到法律人對很多問題都要很嚴謹的回答但是有一個問題我可以很直率的跟委員報告我絕對會以超人的地位以我之前一直在貴黨團裡面所提到的很多的問題我都一直認為這是我學者的見解都提供給貴黨團的書面\n但是陈教授学者的一个见解大家说是透过你过去的著作来了解你所以学者的见解跟你今天站在那边当做是一个被提名人我觉得某种程度的脉络是要一致的就诚如你过去一直不断强调你在当考试委员的时候你是超然立场我还是再次的强调考试委员所处理的性质跟我们大法官是不一样\n特别是像此时此刻我们在目前来说没有一次有那么多的院长提出这么多政治性的所谓的视线这就是我们为什么对你过去的背景跟你现在的回答我们要严格的来做一个厘清这才是个最主要的一个目的我最后一个问题时间的关系你特别要要特别提到了啊所以当你引用了不同的一个法条的时候不断的当民进党的委员不断的在这个所谓的特别预算里面不断的提出宪法第70条的时候\n我們就不斷的提出了憲法第63條還有包括等等這些都要透過大法官來幫我們做不同的一個釐清你之前也特別提到了美國總統叫國會議長下台就是一個憲政災難這是您過去所提到的在我們憲法的運作上面也是具有總統議會的特徵賴總統宣講的時候表示他要透過\n選舉打掉的雜質然後在民進黨的代表大會當中他主張就是要公民一起來發動大罷免意義上好像就是你要透過主張改變立法院席次的一個結構來罷免我們的立法院院長那你認為這跟你過去所說的美國總統叫國會長下台是憲政災難這不覺得也是整個脈絡上也完全是不斷的一個相近的嗎\n如果以總統身份的確是不適宜的但是如果個人的話他有言人自由他今天就是總統啊他今天賴清德就是個總統他怎麼會是個人呢他今天所講的每一句話就代表總統的角度來做一個發言我覺得透過這樣一個宣講然後呢藉由這樣的部分來改變國會的結構然後來換掉我們的立法院長我個人認為這個就是憲政災難這就是您過去所主張的是一樣但是你沒有覺得我們現在整個的台灣社會慢慢往這個方面來做一個趨近這是我們比較擔心的\n我還是維持我與一貫的學者之前所說的立場你現在又變成學者了哇塞我真的常常在你的學者跟這個被提名之間的一個角色我常常會覺得有點confused當你提到這個言論自由當你提到人權的時候你認為這是當你提到你過去的時候是一個比較積極\n對於這個所謂的憲法應該要站在一個第一線上對於政治問題裡面你不能夠迴避可是當現在你所寫的這些所謂的書面跟你回應我的問題的時候你又變成是比較認為應該是退居不要變成一個公親是一個比較消極的角色所以到底哪一個才是我們現在所認知的這個陳昭平\n你用辦法做到嗎?我覺得這就是我們最\n非常非常质疑的一个跟过去的一个背景虽然你不断的提出来你这是考试委员我还是强调考试委员跟大法官所强调的所面对的事务是完完全全不一样大法官不起为神他应该是很超然的过去我们也从来没有跟大法官有这么多的这样子的一个面对面的这样一个一个接触或者是透过宪法法庭里面来做出很多的政治攻防\n可是現在到底是誰讓他變成把你們每一個人都要被問到都要被質疑到底你的政治立場上面有沒有這樣的不斷的一個偏頗這個就是一個我們目前正在這個地方大家對於您過去跟現在一定要搞清楚到底哪一個才是代表你的這樣的一個部分\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.832 --> 00:09.937\n謝謝主席我們請陳備題名人請備題名人答詢\n\n00:20.251 --> 00:39.285\n好我称你陈教授比较顺口一点以前的大法官是宣法的守护者事件的结果可以说是一言九鼎或是一锤定音因为目前的大法官他的角色其实引起非常多的争议我请陈老师你看一下\n\n00:40.146 --> 00:57.094\n如果你有一天也成为他们其中的一员你认为你有什么差别是赫利基群与众不同让人民重新对司法燃起了一个希望还是你跟这群大法官一样是同声相应同气相求然后更扮演一个政权守护者的一个角色\n\n00:58.101 --> 01:24.914\n報告委員大法官的職權任義務是在保障多元的自由民主憲政秩序所以說每一個法官的背景都是多元的包括專長、政治理念、價值理念等等這些而且以剛才跟前面的委員報告過的是每一個大法官基本上不是學者就是法官或檢察官\n\n01:24.994 --> 01:51.017\n所以你们因为背景不同所以说你们会根据你们自己的背景提出对于很多条文上面的解释我今天要特别来引用这个前总统陈水扁说的他说大法官不能是万能的上帝他不要每件事情都要请大法官出来做公清很多政治的攻防朝野的攻防大法官最好不要再简入不然大法官的威信都会荡然无存也不要利用大法官献予其不义你赞同陈总统的说法吗\n\n01:51.835 --> 02:01.415\n報告委員我可不可以稍微再說明一下可以嗎等一下我們等一下會有機會讓你說明所以我其實引用陳水扁的說法是要問你你認為司法要積極還是要消極\n\n02:03.502 --> 02:29.986\n司法作為第三權本身就基於司法的本質是一個被動的而不是一個積極的角色積極的角色是在行政跟立法的這個部分但是我相信你從今天早上到現在我們都會認為你是一個憲法的學者說法不能夠出一十五不一樣因為你在書面回訓的時候不斷強調司法的一個消極性然後你覺得不能夠過度來積極但是大家都引用你過去的大作\n\n02:30.486 --> 02:53.645\n你这本书从这个宪法法理的理论的司法院大法官事先的问题里面其中的一篇却表现我们的司法积极的主义的态度你甚至认为说大法官是宪法的拯救者不应该回避政治问题而且要针对基本的权争议的扮演一个救援者的角色所以难怪大家会质疑到底哪一个才是真正的你\n\n02:54.506 --> 03:21.803\n報告委員我沒有講過拯救者救援者這是三個字沒有完全沒有我是認為憲法是一部政治性的法律所以說呢從人權保障一直到權限之類的都跟政治有關只不過在這個解釋過程它不應該一開始就拒絕而是在解釋過程當中如果遇到有政治力的話政治色彩的話你的解釋就應該到這裡為止例如我已經舉過很多例子像顧友江嶼的解釋\n\n03:22.563 --> 03:50.113\n但是对不起对不起曾被提名人你既然在你的书当中宪法解释具有政治性是必然之理所以大法官不能一开始就以政治问题而拒绝解释否则就具为限制效果所以你认为在这个政治的层面上面你还是具有很大的一个积极性我只能说如果陈前总统在的话看了你的书的话他应该不会提名你因为你的期待你的写法跟他的期待是有些的落差的然后呢\n\n03:50.453 --> 04:05.578\n你特别我们都还是得从你过去的著作来了解你整个的脉络你的思维然后呢这里面提到了大法官是宪政体制的把关者像你书中写的宪法解释具有正经性要保持中立和客观的确你有这么提到\n\n04:06.098 --> 04:23.096\n但是呢你到底要如何來做這個所謂的中立跟客觀因為我看過你的這個口頭的報告還有你學經歷還有你參與公共行政的一些的成就但是你完全迴避你對民進黨的一個貢獻我們絕對相信你因為這些付出今天你才可以站在這個地方所以呢\n\n04:23.536 --> 04:45.026\n我不觉得这有什么好不好说的吧你看你调列出来针调会的这个里面的诉讼代表还有呢在宪政改革当中呢你是演绎小组而且你跟我们很多很有名的独派大佬要立出要这个证明制宪那这种破例其实对很多学者来说其实是非常少见的而且更提出了这个所谓的中华民国第二共和的宪法\n\n04:45.606 --> 05:02.511\n那既然是作為這個所謂的憲法的一個守護者我們應該對憲法應該百分百的忠誠但是呢這樣子的一個擁抱具有台獨傾向的一個制憲還有所謂第二共和憲法代表一個全新的憲政的一個秩序我覺得本質上是否定了現有的這個正當性\n\n05:03.951 --> 05:25.920\n是不是報告委員我提倡的是憲政改革要把憲法裡面不妥當不適合經過這七次修憲以後混掉掉你還特別提到的七次修憲已經讓我們的憲法已經是殘破不堪已經非常的破碎這應該也是你在當學者時候的一個說法是不是這並不代表說我對憲政\n\n05:26.980 --> 05:52.995\n學者的批判是絕對的因為學者當然是會有所批判既學術自由的保障但是我重點還是在憲政體制五權憲法三權憲法權力分立方面在憲政體制方面對人權的部分我也提出很多批判你特別提到因為我們現在不管是修憲或制憲非常的困難所以我們最好是用只能透過事先的方法才能夠讓這個憲法更具有一個完整性而且這裡面最重要的是你還主張在中國大陸制定之憲法\n\n05:53.635 --> 06:16.338\n当时还没有台湾人民的同意所以在90年之前台湾不具有民主正当性我觉得这个说法跟我们赖总统在第三讲的时候1946年所通过的中华民国的宪法台湾没有派原仓家这是不谋而合的我觉得你跟赖总统的讲法是惺惺相依我都不晓得赖总统是参考你的著作还是有咨询过你的意见因为你们两个想法是差不多的\n\n06:16.718 --> 06:44.716\n報告我人我是強調在中華民國憲法到台灣以後經過動員刊亂時期臨時條款的凍結以至於不具有民主正當性所以說你現在目前你現在目前為止那我現在簡單的問一句好的你未來要扮演所謂我們憲法的一個守護者所以你認同的是1946年前1946年頒布的憲法還是和賴總統一樣只承認90年後總統直選之後的憲法我們只簡單回答這個問題就可以報告我人\n\n06:46.097 --> 07:03.489\n1990年只修改了幾個條文而已其餘都是1947年的憲法那當然我是尊重憲法既存在我只針對它修改的方式所以你就是同賴總統所說的目前的中華民國憲法應該是從2010年之後才來當作所以你不贊同他的這樣的一個說法就對了\n\n07:07.455 --> 07:29.245\n1990年修憲也只不過十幾個條文其他還是依據1947年中華民國憲法的內容我覺得這是在意旨上面當然我們遵守的是統一不法律但是在這個意旨整個的一個最高位上裡面裡面我們還是要把它澄清清楚而且最主要我們來說你特別提到我會比較贊成的就是你提到憲政體制的設計必須符合權力制衡跟所謂的責任政治\n\n07:29.605 --> 07:46.944\n为什么我问这个问题我们现在的五权有四权是被同一个政党所掌握的所以有没有办法达到所谓的权力制衡这东西是很重要的接下来我叫就教育为什么我问这个问题因为我们从民国37年开始历任32任的行政院长当然其中有三任是代理的\n\n07:47.284 --> 08:12.331\n他共提出了19次的一個復議但是呢卓榮泰院長本身就提出了6次的一個復議而且復議被立法院否決之後呢他不僅沒有擔起這個責任政治的部分他還特別還要提出5次的這個事件你認為他有符合責任政治的這樣的一個原則嗎報告委員這是行政跟立法之間的政治行為這個政治行為大法官不應該去介入或者去關心的\n\n08:13.263 --> 08:40.479\n这就是你刚刚所提到的在这个部分来说其实你书中写的跟你现在所回应的对我来说是有一点落差所以我们必须要把它澄清清楚所以我们就用一些比较具体的范例来特别提到的目前来说的话我们就行政院目前说对于禁法补偿刚有很多人问你还有警察人员的人事条例再提视线而且上礼拜我们通过的普罚现金一万块钱也考虑要来提出视线那我想请问陈教授\n\n08:40.959 --> 09:07.155\n立法院透過法律案來增加支出你覺得有違反憲法第70條上面的規定嗎報告委員剛才已經跟幾位委員垂詢的時候回答基本上立法院認為這是法律案行政院認為這涉及到預算的規模所以有爭議爭議的時候呢大法官在520號解釋裡面就提供了所謂依據憲法增修條文第三條相關的\n\n09:07.695 --> 09:24.250\n但是我还是要这个正义的部分里面我还是要把它理定清楚因为在7月9号司法院被提名人蔡秋明这个他就特别两座的表明立法院所提的包括禁法补偿包括过去的老农津贴他基本上认为是没有违宪的那你认为呢\n\n09:24.890 --> 09:48.166\n基本上如果是法律案的話就立法院的立場是沒有違憲的是在法律案的層面上說所以這樣大家在法律案跟預算案大家都完全不是活在同一個時空當中我們今天為什麼要特別提出來因為呢普發現金我們只問一個特別條例行政院好像傾向於不釋憲我想他目前為止也不敢去釋憲他這次是要比照禁法補償條例裡面直接不編列預算\n\n09:51.870 --> 09:56.206\n請問政院不依法編列特別預算的話過去大法官有沒有這樣的見解\n\n09:57.810 --> 10:19.402\n520號解釋有提出依據憲法徵修條第3條第二項模式但是呢我覺得你看這就是我們引用的條文不一樣這次比禁法補償更嚴重的依照釋字第463號的一個解釋特別預算如果不合訂就要退回去因為如果政院不按照立法院通過特別條例來編列預算的話這才是一個違憲的部分\n\n10:21.983 --> 10:38.874\n你看看463的解釋裡面他是這樣的說法的所以我們引用的條文是這一塊463的解釋是針對特別預算的部分現在的問題是立法院認為是法律案但是行政院認為這涉及到行政院的編列預算的權限\n\n10:39.874 --> 11:05.614\n根据预算法第九十一条的规定也不是这样选法但是我要利用这个机会还是要特别提出来上周我们此次提到的特别预算的条例通过预算到底是如何来编列但还要由大院来做一个解释但我要是特别提醒了本来立法院就有这个立法主动行程权我们在制定特别条例的时候呢会另加这个条文然后呢这本就是我们所固定的条文\n\n11:05.894 --> 11:21.125\n这固定的一个权限我要特别提醒来在过去90年的时候呢我们通过基隆河流域的特别预算那时候是由料水管委员所提出来柯建民总召当初还是联署人95年通过的石门水库的还有这个特别预算\n\n11:21.505 --> 11:47.843\n是由林正峰委员提出来而且呢都是跟我们现在一样都要依照委员的提案通过特别条例之后再编略预算92年民进党党团那时候有我们的科技民族在这个所谓的严重这个我们的扫射时候我们防治基金500亿我们所做的99年那时候的提案人是赖清德我们要为增稳水库制造的特别条例现在所讲的跟过去所讲的都是一样\n\n11:48.283 --> 12:03.131\n都完全是我們提出的特別條例之後委請行政院再編列預算請問這次為什麼我們所提出來你就認為是可能是有違憲之嫌過去所提出來完全過去程序都是一樣的報告委員我沒有說違憲之嫌因為\n\n12:03.991 --> 12:20.663\n依據520號解釋基本上是兩院應該要依憲法的程序去解釋那是政治的問題大法官不處理這個政治問題那另外呢基本上所謂的行政現在我在書上也表示很清楚不管內閣制或總統制\n\n12:21.864 --> 12:37.519\n現在已經沒有所謂行政立法的這個制衡的問題都是政黨政治所以政黨政治之下如果政黨能夠在憲政的體制之下協商完成的話那當然就不會有爭議的問題所以你認為我們所提出來目前來說\n\n12:38.480 --> 13:00.095\n上次礼拜所提出来的这个所谓的普发现金这个部分以目前你的理解来说你认为跟过去我所调理了这么多过去的特别预算调理完之后的预算应该是符合一致的嘛如果之前可以的话这次应该也是可以嘛如果行政院再提出所谓的事件的话你应该认为这个是完全完全违反我们463号的一个解释嘛\n\n13:00.695 --> 13:29.896\n因為這完全一樣的時光背景不一樣但是我們的程序是完全一樣的啊你必須要把這個程序把它搞清楚啊是報告委員基本上如果我剛才已經提到現在是一個政黨政治各個政黨如果同意的情形之下就不會有520號解釋裡面所謂要透過第三條第二項的部分去解決了那現在的問題跟以前可能是一樣的因為我沒有去細讀之前的那些預算案的部分一樣的\n\n13:30.276 --> 13:47.763\n完全是一样的你应该去细读因为我们今天其实最需要的就是根据几个案例来提出你对于这个很多部分的解释而且最重要是我们现在的卓院长好像是事件已经上了瘾一样只要他提出他不喜欢的他就提事件目前像我们总预算案我们的才华法等等\n\n13:48.463 --> 14:04.222\n而且呢他认为中国查特别问你而且你特别提到的你以前提过了行政机关如果提出提出自己的版本这是宪政惯例那以才化法来说的话行政院并没有提出自己的版本啊你认为他是不是违反了我们的这个宪政惯例\n\n14:05.940 --> 14:27.268\n原則上憲政慣例都行政院會提但是行政院不提立法院當然有權去提出法律案那至於怎麼樣去議決就是基於政黨我現在只是強調你過去有特別提到行政機關提出自己的版本這本就是憲政慣例而行政院這次沒有我只問你是不是違反我們過去的行政慣例\n\n14:28.072 --> 14:34.462\n有可能這個憲政慣例憲政慣例基本上是如果有中斷的話那當然就有可能\n\n14:36.718 --> 15:01.406\n這個憲政慣例可能沒有憲政慣例的沒有拘束力這跟你過去的說法是不一樣嘛本來就要是提出來然後沒但這次就是沒提你就大膽的講我覺得陳昭吉人你看陳被提名人你是教授雖然你過去是學者的身份學者是言論自由但是我覺得應該帶著這樣的一個風火站在這個地方要當成一個大法官就要跟自己的過去都是有所一致性的報告委員因為法律學者是很嚴謹的\n\n15:02.446 --> 15:25.550\n因為單純幾個舉句話我們要去做非常嚴謹的回答恐怕會有遲疑並不是我基於我自己本身立場去做任何回答因為剛才所提的這些問題還有很多配套等等那我就再跟你講一下你過去的一個前輩我們在大法官釋字第391號當中那時候大法官蘇俊雄跟劉鐵正他在不同一書裡面就提到\n\n15:25.970 --> 15:48.346\n目前多事的解釋文并没有判断所谓违反责任政治跟权力分裂的一个标准所以说呢你如果单纯只用权限那个分离来切割提案权跟所谓议决权的话这完全会限锁我们立法院调整预算那个内容所以今天为什么有这么多预算出来为什么今天大家对于所提出的这个大法官的人选我们要非常的严格\n\n15:48.766 --> 16:15.794\n因为当我们这么喜欢事件的院长把什么都放到你那边去之后你如果完全是根据执政党的意志然后来做出你这样一个诠释的话对我们所出来特别是目前这一党说是非常不公平的说我们为什么举出这么多的条例包括我刚刚所提出这么多在特别条例里面的这些过去的历史还包括现在我所告诉你的过去的大法官里面在第391号当中他就有做错的这样的一个诠释\n\n16:16.434 --> 16:41.823\n你認為你過去的前輩這樣的說法你在同嗎報告委員我尊重剛才已經講到法律人對很多問題都要很嚴謹的回答但是有一個問題我可以很直率的跟委員報告我絕對會以超人的地位以我之前一直在貴黨團裡面所提到的很多的問題我都一直認為這是我學者的見解都提供給貴黨團的書面\n\n16:43.764 --> 17:03.770\n但是陈教授学者的一个见解大家说是透过你过去的著作来了解你所以学者的见解跟你今天站在那边当做是一个被提名人我觉得某种程度的脉络是要一致的就诚如你过去一直不断强调你在当考试委员的时候你是超然立场我还是再次的强调考试委员所处理的性质跟我们大法官是不一样\n\n17:04.150 --> 17:31.148\n特别是像此时此刻我们在目前来说没有一次有那么多的院长提出这么多政治性的所谓的视线这就是我们为什么对你过去的背景跟你现在的回答我们要严格的来做一个厘清这才是个最主要的一个目的我最后一个问题时间的关系你特别要要特别提到了啊所以当你引用了不同的一个法条的时候不断的当民进党的委员不断的在这个所谓的特别预算里面不断的提出宪法第70条的时候\n\n17:31.488 --> 17:50.862\n我們就不斷的提出了憲法第63條還有包括等等這些都要透過大法官來幫我們做不同的一個釐清你之前也特別提到了美國總統叫國會議長下台就是一個憲政災難這是您過去所提到的在我們憲法的運作上面也是具有總統議會的特徵賴總統宣講的時候表示他要透過\n\n17:56.946 --> 18:18.775\n選舉打掉的雜質然後在民進黨的代表大會當中他主張就是要公民一起來發動大罷免意義上好像就是你要透過主張改變立法院席次的一個結構來罷免我們的立法院院長那你認為這跟你過去所說的美國總統叫國會長下台是憲政災難這不覺得也是整個脈絡上也完全是不斷的一個相近的嗎\n\n18:19.824 --> 18:49.304\n如果以總統身份的確是不適宜的但是如果個人的話他有言人自由他今天就是總統啊他今天賴清德就是個總統他怎麼會是個人呢他今天所講的每一句話就代表總統的角度來做一個發言我覺得透過這樣一個宣講然後呢藉由這樣的部分來改變國會的結構然後來換掉我們的立法院長我個人認為這個就是憲政災難這就是您過去所主張的是一樣但是你沒有覺得我們現在整個的台灣社會慢慢往這個方面來做一個趨近這是我們比較擔心的\n\n18:51.825 --> 19:07.336\n我還是維持我與一貫的學者之前所說的立場你現在又變成學者了哇塞我真的常常在你的學者跟這個被提名之間的一個角色我常常會覺得有點confused當你提到這個言論自由當你提到人權的時候你認為這是當你提到你過去的時候是一個比較積極\n\n19:08.417 --> 19:25.425\n對於這個所謂的憲法應該要站在一個第一線上對於政治問題裡面你不能夠迴避可是當現在你所寫的這些所謂的書面跟你回應我的問題的時候你又變成是比較認為應該是退居不要變成一個公親是一個比較消極的角色所以到底哪一個才是我們現在所認知的這個陳昭平\n\n19:26.745 --> 19:29.107\n你用辦法做到嗎?我覺得這就是我們最\n\n19:43.215 --> 20:03.665\n非常非常质疑的一个跟过去的一个背景虽然你不断的提出来你这是考试委员我还是强调考试委员跟大法官所强调的所面对的事务是完完全全不一样大法官不起为神他应该是很超然的过去我们也从来没有跟大法官有这么多的这样子的一个面对面的这样一个一个接触或者是透过宪法法庭里面来做出很多的政治攻防\n\n20:04.005 --> 20:20.392\n可是現在到底是誰讓他變成把你們每一個人都要被問到都要被質疑到底你的政治立場上面有沒有這樣的不斷的一個偏頗這個就是一個我們目前正在這個地方大家對於您過去跟現在一定要搞清楚到底哪一個才是代表你的這樣的一個部分\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.832,"end":9.937,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請陳備題名人請備題名人答詢"},{"start":20.251,"end":39.285,"text":"好 我称你陈教授比较顺口一点以前的大法官是宣法的守护者事件的结果可以说是一言九鼎或是一锤定音因为目前的大法官他的角色其实引起非常多的争议我请陈老师你看一下"},{"start":40.146,"end":57.094,"text":"如果你有一天也成为他们其中的一员你认为你有什么差别是赫利基群与众不同让人民重新对司法燃起了一个希望还是你跟这群大法官一样是同声相应同气相求然后更扮演一个政权守护者的一个角色"},{"start":58.101,"end":84.914,"text":"報告委員大法官的職權 任義務是在保障多元的自由民主憲政秩序所以說每一個法官的背景都是多元的包括專長、政治理念、價值理念等等這些而且以剛才跟前面的委員報告過的是每一個大法官基本上不是學者就是法官或檢察官"},{"start":84.994,"end":111.017,"text":"所以你们因为背景不同所以说你们会根据你们自己的背景提出对于很多条文上面的解释我今天要特别来引用这个前总统陈水扁说的他说大法官不能是万能的上帝他不要每件事情都要请大法官出来做公清很多政治的攻防朝野的攻防大法官最好不要再简入不然大法官的威信都会荡然无存也不要利用大法官献予其不义你赞同陈总统的说法吗"},{"start":111.835,"end":121.415,"text":"報告委員我可不可以稍微再說明一下可以嗎等一下我們等一下會有機會讓你說明所以我其實引用陳水扁的說法是要問你你認為司法要積極還是要消極"},{"start":123.502,"end":149.986,"text":"司法作為第三權本身就基於司法的本質是一個被動的而不是一個積極的角色積極的角色是在行政跟立法的這個部分但是我相信你從今天早上到現在我們都會認為你是一個憲法的學者說法不能夠出一十五不一樣因為你在書面回訓的時候不斷強調司法的一個消極性然後你覺得不能夠過度來積極但是大家都引用你過去的大作"},{"start":150.486,"end":173.645,"text":"你这本书从这个宪法法理的理论的司法院大法官事先的问题里面其中的一篇却表现我们的司法积极的主义的态度你甚至认为说大法官是宪法的拯救者不应该回避政治问题而且要针对基本的权争议的扮演一个救援者的角色所以难怪大家会质疑到底哪一个才是真正的你"},{"start":174.506,"end":201.803,"text":"報告委員我沒有講過拯救者救援者這是三個字沒有完全沒有我是認為憲法是一部政治性的法律所以說呢從人權保障一直到權限之類的都跟政治有關只不過在這個解釋過程它不應該一開始就拒絕而是在解釋過程當中如果遇到有政治力的話政治色彩的話你的解釋就應該到這裡為止例如我已經舉過很多例子像顧友江嶼的解釋"},{"start":202.563,"end":230.113,"text":"但是对不起对不起曾被提名人你既然在你的书当中宪法解释具有政治性是必然之理所以大法官不能一开始就以政治问题而拒绝解释否则就具为限制效果所以你认为在这个政治的层面上面你还是具有很大的一个积极性我只能说如果陈前总统在的话看了你的书的话他应该不会提名你因为你的期待你的写法跟他的期待是有些的落差的然后呢"},{"start":230.453,"end":245.578,"text":"你特别我们都还是得从你过去的著作来了解你整个的脉络你的思维然后呢这里面提到了大法官是宪政体制的把关者像你书中写的宪法解释具有正经性要保持中立和客观的确你有这么提到"},{"start":246.098,"end":263.096,"text":"但是呢你到底要如何來做這個所謂的中立跟客觀因為我看過你的這個口頭的報告還有你學經歷還有你參與公共行政的一些的成就但是你完全迴避你對民進黨的一個貢獻我們絕對相信你因為這些付出今天你才可以站在這個地方所以呢"},{"start":263.536,"end":285.026,"text":"我不觉得这有什么好不好说的吧你看你调列出来针调会的这个里面的诉讼代表还有呢在宪政改革当中呢你是演绎小组而且你跟我们很多很有名的独派大佬要立出要这个证明制宪那这种破例其实对很多学者来说其实是非常少见的而且更提出了这个所谓的中华民国第二共和的宪法"},{"start":285.606,"end":302.511,"text":"那既然是作為這個所謂的憲法的一個守護者我們應該對憲法應該百分百的忠誠但是呢 這樣子的一個擁抱具有台獨傾向的一個制憲還有所謂第二共和憲法代表一個全新的憲政的一個秩序我覺得本質上是否定了現有的這個正當性"},{"start":303.951,"end":325.92,"text":"是不是報告委員我提倡的是憲政改革要把憲法裡面不妥當不適合經過這七次修憲以後混掉掉你還特別提到的七次修憲已經讓我們的憲法已經是殘破不堪已經非常的破碎這應該也是你在當學者時候的一個說法是不是這並不代表說我對憲政"},{"start":326.98,"end":352.995,"text":"學者的批判是絕對的因為學者當然是會有所批判既學術自由的保障但是我重點還是在憲政體制五權憲法三權憲法權力分立方面在憲政體制方面對人權的部分我也提出很多批判你特別提到因為我們現在不管是修憲或制憲非常的困難所以我們最好是用只能透過事先的方法才能夠讓這個憲法更具有一個完整性而且這裡面最重要的是你還主張在中國大陸制定之憲法"},{"start":353.635,"end":376.338,"text":"当时还没有台湾人民的同意所以在90年之前台湾不具有民主正当性我觉得这个说法跟我们赖总统在第三讲的时候1946年所通过的中华民国的宪法台湾没有派原仓家这是不谋而合的我觉得你跟赖总统的讲法是惺惺相依我都不晓得赖总统是参考你的著作还是有咨询过你的意见因为你们两个想法是差不多的"},{"start":376.718,"end":404.716,"text":"報告我人我是強調在中華民國憲法到台灣以後經過動員刊亂時期臨時條款的凍結以至於不具有民主正當性所以說你現在目前你現在目前為止那我現在簡單的問一句好的你未來要扮演所謂我們憲法的一個守護者所以你認同的是1946年前1946年頒布的憲法還是和賴總統一樣只承認90年後總統直選之後的憲法我們只簡單回答這個問題就可以報告我人"},{"start":406.097,"end":423.489,"text":"1990年只修改了幾個條文而已其餘都是1947年的憲法那當然我是尊重憲法既存在我只針對它修改的方式所以你就是同賴總統所說的目前的中華民國憲法應該是從2010年之後才來當作所以你不贊同他的這樣的一個說法就對了"},{"start":427.455,"end":449.245,"text":"1990年修憲也只不過十幾個條文其他還是依據1947年中華民國憲法的內容我覺得這是在意旨上面當然我們遵守的是統一不法律但是在這個意旨整個的一個最高位上裡面裡面我們還是要把它澄清清楚而且最主要我們來說你特別提到我會比較贊成的就是你提到憲政體制的設計必須符合權力制衡跟所謂的責任政治"},{"start":449.605,"end":466.944,"text":"为什么我问这个问题我们现在的五权有四权是被同一个政党所掌握的所以有没有办法达到所谓的权力制衡这东西是很重要的接下来我叫就教育为什么我问这个问题因为我们从民国37年开始历任32任的行政院长当然其中有三任是代理的"},{"start":467.284,"end":492.331,"text":"他共提出了19次的一個復議但是呢卓榮泰院長本身就提出了6次的一個復議而且復議被立法院否決之後呢他不僅沒有擔起這個責任政治的部分他還特別還要提出5次的這個事件你認為他有符合責任政治的這樣的一個原則嗎報告委員這是行政跟立法之間的政治行為這個政治行為大法官不應該去介入或者去關心的"},{"start":493.263,"end":520.479,"text":"这就是你刚刚所提到的在这个部分来说其实你书中写的跟你现在所回应的对我来说是有一点落差所以我们必须要把它澄清清楚所以我们就用一些比较具体的范例来特别提到的目前来说的话我们就行政院目前说对于禁法补偿刚有很多人问你还有警察人员的人事条例再提视线而且上礼拜我们通过的普罚现金一万块钱也考虑要来提出视线那我想请问陈教授"},{"start":520.959,"end":547.155,"text":"立法院透過法律案來增加支出你覺得有違反憲法第70條上面的規定嗎報告委員剛才已經跟幾位委員垂詢的時候回答基本上立法院認為這是法律案行政院認為這涉及到預算的規模所以有爭議爭議的時候呢大法官在520號解釋裡面就提供了所謂依據憲法增修條文第三條相關的"},{"start":547.695,"end":564.25,"text":"但是我还是要这个正义的部分里面我还是要把它理定清楚因为在7月9号司法院被提名人蔡秋明这个他就特别两座的表明立法院所提的包括禁法补偿包括过去的老农津贴他基本上认为是没有违宪的那你认为呢"},{"start":564.89,"end":588.166,"text":"基本上如果是法律案的話就立法院的立場是沒有違憲的是在法律案的層面上說所以這樣大家在法律案跟預算案大家都完全不是活在同一個時空當中我們今天為什麼要特別提出來因為呢普發現金我們只問一個特別條例行政院好像傾向於不釋憲我想他目前為止也不敢去釋憲他這次是要比照禁法補償條例裡面直接不編列預算"},{"start":591.87,"end":596.206,"text":"請問政院不依法編列特別預算的話過去大法官有沒有這樣的見解"},{"start":597.81,"end":619.402,"text":"520號解釋有提出依據憲法徵修條第3條第二項模式但是呢我覺得你看這就是我們引用的條文不一樣這次比禁法補償更嚴重的依照釋字第463號的一個解釋特別預算如果不合訂就要退回去因為如果政院不按照立法院通過特別條例來編列預算的話這才是一個違憲的部分"},{"start":621.983,"end":638.874,"text":"你看看463的解釋裡面他是這樣的說法的所以我們引用的條文是這一塊463的解釋是針對特別預算的部分現在的問題是立法院認為是法律案但是行政院認為這涉及到行政院的編列預算的權限"},{"start":639.874,"end":665.614,"text":"根据预算法第九十一条的规定也不是这样选法但是我要利用这个机会还是要特别提出来上周我们此次提到的特别预算的条例通过预算到底是如何来编列但还要由大院来做一个解释但我要是特别提醒了本来立法院就有这个立法主动行程权我们在制定特别条例的时候呢会另加这个条文然后呢这本就是我们所固定的条文"},{"start":665.894,"end":681.125,"text":"这固定的一个权限我要特别提醒来在过去90年的时候呢我们通过基隆河流域的特别预算那时候是由料水管委员所提出来柯建民总召当初还是联署人95年通过的石门水库的还有这个特别预算"},{"start":681.505,"end":707.843,"text":"是由林正峰委员提出来而且呢都是跟我们现在一样都要依照委员的提案通过特别条例之后再编略预算92年民进党党团那时候有我们的科技民族在这个所谓的严重这个我们的扫射时候我们防治基金500亿我们所做的99年那时候的提案人是赖清德我们要为增稳水库制造的特别条例现在所讲的跟过去所讲的都是一样"},{"start":708.283,"end":723.131,"text":"都完全是我們提出的特別條例之後委請行政院再編列預算請問這次為什麼我們所提出來你就認為是可能是有違憲之嫌過去所提出來完全過去程序都是一樣的報告委員我沒有說違憲之嫌因為"},{"start":723.991,"end":740.663,"text":"依據520號解釋基本上是兩院應該要依憲法的程序去解釋那是政治的問題大法官不處理這個政治問題那另外呢基本上所謂的行政現在我在書上也表示很清楚不管內閣制或總統制"},{"start":741.864,"end":757.519,"text":"現在已經沒有所謂行政立法的這個制衡的問題都是政黨政治所以政黨政治之下如果政黨能夠在憲政的體制之下協商完成的話那當然就不會有爭議的問題所以你認為我們所提出來目前來說"},{"start":758.48,"end":780.095,"text":"上次礼拜所提出来的这个所谓的普发现金这个部分以目前你的理解来说你认为跟过去我所调理了这么多过去的特别预算调理完之后的预算应该是符合一致的嘛如果之前可以的话这次应该也是可以嘛如果行政院再提出所谓的事件的话你应该认为这个是完全完全违反我们463号的一个解释嘛"},{"start":780.695,"end":809.896,"text":"因為這完全一樣的 時光背景不一樣但是我們的程序是完全一樣的啊你必須要把這個程序把它搞清楚啊是 報告委員 基本上如果我剛才已經提到現在是一個政黨政治各個政黨如果同意的情形之下就不會有520號解釋裡面所謂要透過第三條第二項的部分去解決了那現在的問題跟以前可能是一樣的因為我沒有去細讀之前的那些預算案的部分一樣的"},{"start":810.276,"end":827.763,"text":"完全是一样的你应该去细读因为我们今天其实最需要的就是根据几个案例来提出你对于这个很多部分的解释而且最重要是我们现在的卓院长好像是事件已经上了瘾一样只要他提出他不喜欢的他就提事件目前像我们总预算案我们的才华法等等"},{"start":828.463,"end":844.222,"text":"而且呢他认为中国查特别问你而且你特别提到的你以前提过了行政机关如果提出提出自己的版本这是宪政惯例那以才化法来说的话行政院并没有提出自己的版本啊你认为他是不是违反了我们的这个宪政惯例"},{"start":845.94,"end":867.268,"text":"原則上憲政慣例都行政院會提但是行政院不提立法院當然有權去提出法律案那至於怎麼樣去議決就是基於政黨我現在只是強調你過去有特別提到行政機關提出自己的版本這本就是憲政慣例而行政院這次沒有我只問你是不是違反我們過去的行政慣例"},{"start":868.072,"end":874.462,"text":"有可能這個憲政慣例憲政慣例基本上是如果有中斷的話那當然就有可能"},{"start":876.718,"end":901.406,"text":"這個憲政慣例可能沒有 憲政慣例的沒有拘束力這跟你過去的說法是不一樣嘛 本來就要是提出來 然後沒但這次就是沒提 你就大膽的講 我覺得陳昭吉人 你看陳被提名人 你是教授雖然你過去是學者的身份 學者是言論自由但是我覺得應該帶著這樣的一個風火 站在這個地方要當成一個大法官 就要跟自己的過去都是有所一致性的報告委員 因為法律學者是很嚴謹的"},{"start":902.446,"end":925.55,"text":"因為單純幾個舉句話我們要去做非常嚴謹的回答恐怕會有遲疑並不是我基於我自己本身立場去做任何回答因為剛才所提的這些問題還有很多配套等等那我就再跟你講一下你過去的一個前輩我們在大法官釋字第391號當中那時候大法官蘇俊雄跟劉鐵正他在不同一書裡面就提到"},{"start":925.97,"end":948.346,"text":"目前多事的解釋文并没有判断所谓违反责任政治跟权力分裂的一个标准所以说呢你如果单纯只用权限那个分离来切割提案权跟所谓议决权的话这完全会限锁我们立法院调整预算那个内容所以今天为什么有这么多预算出来为什么今天大家对于所提出的这个大法官的人选我们要非常的严格"},{"start":948.766,"end":975.794,"text":"因为当我们这么喜欢事件的院长把什么都放到你那边去之后你如果完全是根据执政党的意志然后来做出你这样一个诠释的话对我们所出来特别是目前这一党说是非常不公平的说我们为什么举出这么多的条例包括我刚刚所提出这么多在特别条例里面的这些过去的历史还包括现在我所告诉你的过去的大法官里面在第391号当中他就有做错的这样的一个诠释"},{"start":976.434,"end":1001.823,"text":"你認為你過去的前輩這樣的說法你在同嗎報告委員我尊重剛才已經講到法律人對很多問題都要很嚴謹的回答但是有一個問題我可以很直率的跟委員報告我絕對會以超人的地位以我之前一直在貴黨團裡面所提到的很多的問題我都一直認為這是我學者的見解都提供給貴黨團的書面"},{"start":1003.764,"end":1023.77,"text":"但是陈教授学者的一个见解大家说是透过你过去的著作来了解你所以学者的见解跟你今天站在那边当做是一个被提名人我觉得某种程度的脉络是要一致的就诚如你过去一直不断强调你在当考试委员的时候你是超然立场我还是再次的强调考试委员所处理的性质跟我们大法官是不一样"},{"start":1024.15,"end":1051.148,"text":"特别是像此时此刻我们在目前来说没有一次有那么多的院长提出这么多政治性的所谓的视线这就是我们为什么对你过去的背景跟你现在的回答我们要严格的来做一个厘清这才是个最主要的一个目的我最后一个问题时间的关系你特别要要特别提到了啊所以当你引用了不同的一个法条的时候不断的当民进党的委员不断的在这个所谓的特别预算里面不断的提出宪法第70条的时候"},{"start":1051.488,"end":1070.862,"text":"我們就不斷的提出了憲法第63條還有包括等等這些都要透過大法官來幫我們做不同的一個釐清你之前也特別提到了美國總統叫國會議長下台就是一個憲政災難這是您過去所提到的在我們憲法的運作上面也是具有總統議會的特徵賴總統宣講的時候表示他要透過"},{"start":1076.946,"end":1098.775,"text":"選舉打掉的雜質然後在民進黨的代表大會當中他主張就是要公民一起來發動大罷免意義上好像就是你要透過主張改變立法院席次的一個結構來罷免我們的立法院院長那你認為這跟你過去所說的美國總統叫國會長下台是憲政災難這不覺得也是整個脈絡上也完全是不斷的一個相近的嗎"},{"start":1099.824,"end":1129.304,"text":"如果以總統身份的確是不適宜的但是如果個人的話他有言人自由他今天就是總統啊他今天賴清德就是個總統他怎麼會是個人呢他今天所講的每一句話就代表總統的角度來做一個發言我覺得透過這樣一個宣講然後呢藉由這樣的部分來改變國會的結構然後來換掉我們的立法院長我個人認為這個就是憲政災難這就是您過去所主張的是一樣但是你沒有覺得我們現在整個的台灣社會慢慢往這個方面來做一個趨近這是我們比較擔心的"},{"start":1131.825,"end":1147.336,"text":"我還是維持我與一貫的學者之前所說的立場你現在又變成學者了哇塞我真的常常在你的學者跟這個被提名之間的一個角色我常常會覺得有點confused當你提到這個言論自由當你提到人權的時候你認為這是當你提到你過去的時候是一個比較積極"},{"start":1148.417,"end":1165.425,"text":"對於這個所謂的憲法應該要站在一個第一線上對於政治問題裡面你不能夠迴避可是當現在你所寫的這些所謂的書面跟你回應我的問題的時候你又變成是比較認為應該是退居不要變成一個公親是一個比較消極的角色所以到底哪一個才是我們現在所認知的這個陳昭平"},{"start":1166.745,"end":1169.107,"text":"你用辦法做到嗎?我覺得這就是我們最"},{"start":1183.215,"end":1203.665,"text":"非常非常质疑的一个跟过去的一个背景虽然你不断的提出来你这是考试委员我还是强调考试委员跟大法官所强调的所面对的事务是完完全全不一样大法官不起为神他应该是很超然的过去我们也从来没有跟大法官有这么多的这样子的一个面对面的这样一个一个接触或者是透过宪法法庭里面来做出很多的政治攻防"},{"start":1204.005,"end":1220.392,"text":"可是現在到底是誰讓他變成把你們每一個人都要被問到都要被質疑到底你的政治立場上面有沒有這樣的不斷的一個偏頗這個就是一個我們目前正在這個地方大家對於您過去跟現在一定要搞清楚到底哪一個才是代表你的這樣的一個部分"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":435,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（10時44分）謝謝主席。我們請陳被提名人。"],["主席：請被提名人答詢。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：好，我稱你陳教授比較順口一點。","以前的大法官是憲法的守護者，釋憲的結果可以說是一言九鼎或是一錘定音，但是目前大法官的角色其實引起非常多的爭議，我請陳老師你看一下，如果你有一天也成為他們其中的一員，你認為你有什麼差別？是鶴立雞群與眾不同，讓人民重新對司法燃起希望，還是你跟這一群大法官一樣是同聲相應，同氣相求，更扮演一個政權守護者的角色？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，大法官的職權、義務是在保障多元的自由、民主、憲政秩序，所以每一個法官的背景都是多元的，包括專長、政治理念、價值理念等等這些，而且剛才跟前面的委員報告過，每一個大法官基本上不是學者，就是法官或檢察官……"],["柯委員志恩：所以你們因為背景不同，你們會根據你們自己的背景提出對於很多條文上面的解釋。好，我今天要特別來引用前總統陳水扁說的，他說：大法官不是萬能的上帝，不要每件事情都要請大法官出來做公親，很多政治的攻防、朝野的攻防，大法官最好不要再捲入，不然大法官的威信都會蕩然無存，也不要利用大法官，陷其於不義。你贊同陳總統的說法嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，我可不可以稍微再說明一下，可以嗎？"],["柯委員志恩：等一下，我們等一下會有機會讓你說明。所以我其實引用陳水扁的說法是要問你，你認為司法要積極還是要消極？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：司法作為第三權，本身基於司法的本質是一個被動的，而不是一個積極的角色，積極的角色是在行政跟立法的這個部分。"],["柯委員志恩：但是我相信從今天早上到現在，我們都會認為你是一個憲法的學者，說法不能夠初一、十五不一樣，因為你在書面回復的時候，不斷強調司法的消極性，你覺得不能夠過度積極。但是大家都會引用你過去的大作，你這本書，從憲法法理論司法院大法官釋憲問題裡面，其中的一篇卻表現我們的司法積極主義的態度，你甚至認為說，大法官是憲法的拯救者，不應該迴避政治問題，而且要針對基本權的爭議扮演一個救援者的角色，所以難怪大家會質疑到底哪一個才是真正的你。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，我沒有講過「拯救者」、「救援者」這三個字，沒有，完全沒有。我是認為憲法是一部政治性的法律，所以從人權保障一直到權限爭議都跟政治有關，只不過在這個解釋過程，他不應該一開始就拒絕，而是在解釋過程當中，如果遇到有政治力的話、政治色彩的話，他的解釋就應該到這裡為止，例如我已經舉過很多例子，像固有疆域的解釋……"],["柯委員志恩：但是對不起，對不起！陳被提名人，你竟然在你的書當中說，憲法解釋具有政治性是必然之理，所以大法官不能一開始就以政治問題而拒絕解釋，否則就具違憲之效果，所以你認為在政治的層面上面，大法官還是具有很大的積極性。我只能說如果陳前總統在任的話，看了你的書的話，他應該不會提名你，因為你的期待、你的寫法，跟他的期待是有些落差的。","我們都還是得從你過去的著作來了解你整個的脈絡、你的思維，這裡面提到了大法官是憲政體制的把關者，像你書中寫的，憲法解釋具有政治性，要保持中立跟客觀，的確你有這麼提到，但是你到底要如何來做這個所謂的中立跟客觀，因為我看過你的口頭報告，還有你的學經歷，還有你參與公共行政的一些成就，但是你完全迴避你對民進黨的貢獻，我們絕對相信你因為這些付出，今天你才可以站在這個地方，所以我不覺得這有什麼不好說的嘛！","你看條列出來的，真調會條例釋憲裡面的訴訟代表，還有在憲政改革當中，你是研議小組，而且你跟我們很多很有名的獨派大老力促要正名制憲，這種魄力其實對很多學者來說，其實是非常少見的，而且更提出了所謂的「中華民國第二共和憲法」。既然是作為所謂的憲法守護者，我們應該對憲法百分之百的忠誠，但是這樣子的擁抱具有臺獨傾向的制憲，還有所謂第二共和憲法，代表一個全新的憲政秩序，我覺得本質上是否定了現有的正當性耶！是不是？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，我提倡的是憲政改革，要把憲法裡面不妥當、不適合，經過這7次修憲以後……"],["柯委員志恩：你還特別提到7次修憲讓我們的憲法已經是殘破不堪，已經非常的破碎，這應該也是你在當學者時候的一個說法，是不是？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：學者的批判是絕對的，因為學者當然是會有所批判，基於學術自由的保障，但是我的重點還是在憲政體制、五權憲法、三權憲法、權力分立方面、在憲政體制方面，對人權的部分，我也提出很多批判。"],["柯委員志恩：你特別提到，因為我們現在不管是修憲或制憲都非常困難，所以我們只能透過釋憲的方法，才能夠讓這個憲法更具有完整性。而且這裡面最重要的是，你還主張，在中國大陸制定之憲法，當時還沒有臺灣人民的同意，所以在90年之前，於臺灣不具有民主正當性。我覺得這個說法跟我們賴總統在第三講時所說，1946年所通過的中華民國憲法，臺灣沒有派員參加，這是不謀而合的，我覺得你跟賴總統的講法是心心相印，我就不曉得賴總統是參考你的著作，還是有諮詢過你的意見，因為你們兩個想法是差不多的。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，我是強調在中華民國憲法到臺灣以後，經過動員戡亂時期臨時條款的凍結，以致於不具有民主正當性……"],["柯委員志恩：我現在簡單的問一句就好，你未來要扮演一個所謂憲法的守護者，所以你認同的是1946年頒布的憲法，還是和賴總統一樣，只承認90年後總統直選之後的憲法？你只簡單回答這個問題就可以。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，1990年只修改了十幾個條文而已，其餘都是1947年的憲法，當然我是尊重憲法既已存在，我只針對它修改的方式……"],["柯委員志恩：所以你認同賴總統所說的，目前的中華民國憲法應該是從90年之後才來當作……"],["陳慈陽被提名人：沒有、沒有……"],["柯委員志恩：所以你不贊同他的這樣一個說法就對了？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：不是、不是，因為1990年修憲也只不過十幾個條文，其他還是依據1947年中華民國憲法。"],["柯委員志恩：我覺得這是在意旨上面，當然，我們遵守的是同一部法律，但是在整個意旨的最高上位裡面，我們還是要把它澄清清楚，而且對我們來說，我會比較贊成的是，你特別提到憲政體制的設計必須符合權力制衡和所謂的責任政治。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：對。"],["柯委員志恩：為什麼我要問這個？問題是我們現在的五權有四權是被同一個政黨所掌握的，所以有沒有辦法達到所謂的權力制衡，這個東西是很重要的。","接下來我就教於你，為什麼我要問這個問題？因為我們從民國37年開始，歷任32任的行政院長，當然其中有3任是代理的，共提出了19次覆議，但是卓榮泰院長本身就提出了6次覆議，而且覆議被立法院否決之後，他不僅沒有擔起責任政治的部分，他還特別提出5次的釋憲，你認為他有符合責任政治這樣一個原則嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，這是行政跟立法之間的政治行為，這個政治行為大法官不應該去介入或者去關心的。"],["柯委員志恩：這就是你剛剛所提到的，就這個部分來說，其實你書中寫的，跟你現在所回應的，對我來說是有一點落差，所以我們必須要把它澄清清楚，我們就用一些比較具體的範例來特別提到，就行政院目前來說，對於禁伐補償，剛剛有很多人問你，還有警察人員人事條例，再提釋憲，而且對於上禮拜我們通過的普發現金一萬塊錢，也考慮要來提出釋憲，我想請問陳教授，立法院透過法律案來增加支出，你覺得有違反憲法第七十條上面的規定嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，剛才幾位委員垂詢的時候我已經回答，基本上，立法院認為這是法律案，行政院認為這涉及到預算的編列……"],["柯委員志恩：預算案。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：所以有爭議，有爭議的時候，大法官在第520號解釋裡面就提供了所謂依據憲法增修條文第三條相關的第二項去處理……"],["柯委員志恩：但是我還是要強調這個爭議的部分要把它釐清清楚，因為在7月9號司法院被提名人蔡秋明有特別兩度表明，立法院所提的包括禁伐補償、包括過去的老農津貼，他基本上認為是沒有違憲的，那你認為呢？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：基本上如果是法律案的話，就立法院的立場是沒有違憲的。"],["柯委員志恩：是，在法律案的層面上來說，就法律案跟預算案，大家都完全不是活在同一個時空當中，我們今天為什麼要特別提出來？因為普發現金特別條例，我們只問一個，行政院好像傾向於不釋憲，我想它目前為止也不敢去釋憲，這次它是要比照禁伐補償條例，直接不編列預算，請問政院不依法編列特別預算的話，過去大法官有沒有這樣的見解？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：第520號解釋有提出依據憲法增修條文第三條第二項模式，兩院去互動。"],["柯委員志恩：但是你看，這就是我們引用的條文不一樣，這次比禁伐補償更嚴重，依照釋字第463號的解釋，特別預算如果不核定就要退回去，因為如果行政院不按照立法院通過的特別條例編列預算的話，這才是一個違憲的部分，你看第463號的解釋裡面是這樣說的，所以我們引用的條文是這一塊。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：第463號的解釋是針對特別預算的部分，現在的問題在於立法院認為是法律案，但是行政院認為這涉及到行政院編列預算的權限……"],["柯委員志恩：根據預算法第九十一條的規定也不是這樣的說法，但我還是要利用這個機會特別提出來，上週只是特別預算的條例通過，預算到底要如何編列，那還要由大院來做一個解釋，在此我要特別提醒，本來立法院就有立法主動形成權，我們在制定特別條例的時候會另加條文，這本來就是我們固定的權限，我要特別提醒在過去90年的時候我們通過基隆河流域的特別預算，那時候是由廖學廣委員所提出來，柯建銘總召當初還是連署人；95年通過的石門水庫特別預算是由林正峰委員提出來，而且都跟我們現在一樣，都要依照委員的提案，通過特別條例之後再編列預算。92年民進黨黨團那時候由柯建銘主導，在SARS疫情嚴重的時候，我們編列防治基金500億；99年那時候的提案人是賴清德，為了曾文水庫制定特別條例。現在所講的跟過去所講的都一樣，都是我們提出特別條例之後，委請行政院再編列預算。請問為什麼這次我們所提出來的，你就認為可能有違憲之嫌？它和過去的程序完全都一樣啊！"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，我沒有說有違憲之嫌，因為依據第520號解釋，基本上是兩院應該要依憲法的程序去解決……"],["柯委員志恩：有嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：那是政治的問題，大法官不處理政治問題。另外，其實我在書上也表示得很清楚，不管內閣制或總統制，現在已經沒有所謂行政、立法制衡的問題，都是政黨政治，在政黨政治之下，如果政黨能夠在憲政體制之下協商完成的話，那當然就不會有爭議的問題，如果有爭議……"],["柯委員志恩：所以針對我們上個禮拜所提出來普發現金這個部分，以你目前的理解來說，你認為跟我所條列過去這麼多的特別預算，通過特別條例之後要編列預算應該是符合一致的，如果之前可以的話，這次應該也是可以嘛！如果行政院再提出所謂的釋憲的話，你應該認為這是完全違反第463號的解釋，因為這是完全一樣的，雖然時空背景不一樣，但是我們的程序是完全一樣的啊！你必須要把這個程序搞清楚啊！"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，我剛才已經提到，現在是政黨政治，如果在各個政黨同意的情形之下，就不會有第520號解釋裡面所謂要透過第三條第二項的部分去解決了。現在的問題跟以前可能是一樣的，因為我沒有細讀之前那些預算案……"],["柯委員志恩：一樣的，完全是一樣的！你應該去細讀，因為我們今天最需要的其實就是根據幾個案例來提出你對於很多部分的解釋，而且最重要的是，現在卓院長好像是提釋憲已經上了癮一樣，只要他不喜歡的他就提釋憲，像總預算案、財劃法等等，而且你以前也特別提到，行政機關如果提出自己的版本，這是憲政慣例，那以財劃法來說的話，行政院並沒有提出自己的版本，你認為它是不是違反了我們的憲政慣例？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：原則上，依照憲政慣例都是行政院會提，如果行政院不提，立法院當然有權提出法律案。至於怎麼樣去議決，就是基於政黨政治……"],["柯委員志恩：我現在是強調你過去有特別提到行政機關提出自己的版本，這本來就是憲政慣例，而行政院這次沒有，所以我只問你這是不是違反我們過去的憲政慣例？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：有可能，這個憲政慣例如果有中斷的話，那當然就有可能憲政慣例沒有……"],["柯委員志恩：你就大膽的說嘛！這跟你過去的說法不一樣……"],["陳慈陽被提名人：但憲政慣例沒有拘束力……"],["柯委員志恩：本來就要提出來，但這次就是沒有提，你就大膽的講嘛！陳被提名人你是教授，雖然你過去是學者的身分，學者是言論自由，但是我覺得應該帶著這樣的風骨站在這個地方，要當成一個大法官，就要跟自己的過去都是有一致性的。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，因為法律學者是很嚴謹的，如果只用單純幾句話就要去做非常嚴謹的回答，恐怕會有遲疑，並不是我基於我自己本身立場去做任何回答，因為剛才所提的這些問題還有很多配套等等……"],["柯委員志恩：那我就再跟你講一下你過去的前輩，在大法官釋字第391號當中，那時候大法官蘇俊雄和劉鐵錚在不同意見書裡面就提到，目前多數解釋文並沒有判斷所謂違反責任政治及權力分立的標準，如果單純只用權限的分立來切割提案權及議決權的話，完全會限縮我們立法院調整預算的內容。所以今天為什麼有這麼多預算出來？為什麼今天大家對於所提出的大法官人選要非常地嚴格？因為當這麼喜歡釋憲的院長把什麼都放到你們那邊之後，你們如果完全根據執政黨的意旨作出詮釋的話，對我們提出來、特別是目前在野黨提出來的是非常不公平的！所以我們為什麼舉出這麼多條例，包括我剛剛所提出這麼多特別條例過去的歷史，還包括現在我告訴你的，過去大法官在第391號解釋當中就已經作出這樣的詮釋，對於過去的前輩這樣的說法，你贊同嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，我尊重。剛才已經講到法律人對很多問題都要很嚴謹地回答，但是有一個問題我可以很直率地跟委員報告，我絕對會以超然的地位，我之前在貴黨團裡面提到很多問題，我一直都認為這是我作為學者的見解，都提供在貴黨團的書面資料裡面給大家看。"],["柯委員志恩：但是陳教授，以學者的見解來講，大家都是透過你過去的著作來瞭解你，所以學者的見解跟你今天站在這邊當作一個被提名人，我覺得某種程度的脈絡是要一致的。就誠如你過去一直不斷強調，你在當考試委員的時候是持超然立場，我還是再一次地強調，考試委員所處理的性質跟大法官不一樣，特別是此時此刻，沒有一位院長提出這麼多政治性的釋憲，這是我們為什麼對你過去的背景跟你現在的回答要嚴格地釐清，這才是最主要的目的。","因為時間的關係，我提出最後一個問題。你特別提到，當你引用不同法條的時候……當民進黨的委員在特別預算裡面不斷地提出憲法第七十條的時候，我們就不斷地提出憲法第六十三條等等，這些都要透過大法官幫我們做不同的釐清。你之前也特別提到美國總統叫國會議長下臺就是一個憲政災難，這是您過去所提到的。在我們憲法的運作上面，也是具有總統、議會的特徵。賴總統宣講的時候表示，他要透過選舉打掉雜質；又在民進黨代表大會當中，主張公民要一起發動大罷免，意思好像就是要透過主張改變立法院席次的結構來罷免立法院院長，你認為這跟你過去所說的「美國總統叫國會議長下臺是憲政災難」，在脈絡上不也是相近的嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：如果以總統身分，的確是不適宜的；但是如果是個人的話，他有言論自由，當然……"],["柯委員志恩：他今天就是總統，今天賴清德就是總統，他怎麼是個人呢？他今天所講的每一句話就是代表總統的角度來發言。對於透過這樣的宣講，藉此改變國會的結構，進而換掉立法院院長，我個人認為這個就是憲政災難，跟您過去所主張的是一樣的，但是你不覺得現在整個臺灣社會慢慢往這個方向趨近？這是我們比較擔心的。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：我還是維持我一貫的學者之前所說的……"],["柯委員志恩：你現在又變成學者了！哇賽，我真的常常在你學者跟被提名人之間的角色會覺得有點confused。當你提到言論自由、提到人權的時候，你認為這是……你提到你過去是比較積極的，對於憲法應該站在第一線上，對於政治問題不能夠迴避；可是從現在你所寫這些書面跟你對我的問題的回應看來，你又變成比較認為應該退居，不要變成公親，是一個消極的角色。所以到底哪一個才是我們現在所認知的陳慈陽？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，我認為釋憲、憲法就是有政治的素材，不能迴避，否則就不需要釋憲，但是在釋憲過程當中遇到政治力的時候，就應該要指出這個界線所在，所以……"],["柯委員志恩：你有辦法做到嗎？我覺得這就是我們非常非常質疑的，因為以你過去的背景，雖然你不斷地提出來你當時是考試委員，但我還是強調，考試委員跟大法官所強調的、所面對的事務是完完全全不一樣的，大法官應該是很超然的，過去我們也從來沒有跟大法官有這麼多面對面的接觸，或者透過憲法法庭作出很多政治攻防，可是現在到底是誰讓他變成……讓你們每一個人都要被問到、都要被質疑到底你們的政治立場上面有沒有偏頗？這個就是我們目前站在這個地方，大家對於您的過去跟現在一定要搞清楚，到底哪一個才是代表你？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，我一定做到在解釋過程當中如果遇到政治力的介入，就是一個界線存在。"],["主席：好，謝謝柯委員，謝謝被提名人。","下一位請陳培瑜委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":532,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-4","speakers":["江啟臣","陳玉珍","林國成","劉建國","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","柯志恩","陳培瑜","陳昭姿","蘇巧慧","陳俊宇","牛煦庭","盧縣一"],"page_start":467,"meetingDate":["2025-07-14"],"gazette_id":"1146501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146501_00009","1146501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規\n定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並\n以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案（後接第二冊）","agenda_id":"1146501_00005"}}}