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\"1\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}]}, {\"start\": 439.242, \"end\": 452.154, \"text\": \"憲法第147條講說中央為謀省與省之間的經濟平衡發展對於評級是省那當然是用省這個字當然是因為它過去的時代脈絡但簡單來講其實就是對於地方政府應該要著於補助為了謀求縣與縣之間的經濟平衡發展應該著於補助它是一個原則性的規範\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 439.242, \"end\": 439.342, \"score\": 0.695}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 439.342, \"end\": 440.383, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 440.383, \"end\": 440.543, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"央\", \"start\": 440.543, \"end\": 441.024, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"謀\"}, {\"word\": \"省\", \"start\": 441.024, \"end\": 441.304, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"與\"}, {\"word\": \"省\", \"start\": 441.304, \"end\": 441.464, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 441.464, \"end\": 441.765, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", 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451.754, \"end\": 451.914, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 451.914, \"end\": 451.994, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 451.994, \"end\": 452.014, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"則\"}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 452.014, \"end\": 452.134, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 452.134, \"end\": 452.154, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"範\"}]}, {\"start\": 457.557, \"end\": 481.445, \"text\": \"詹教授您曾經在政治大學上課裡面就有談關鍵爭議其實是說立法權的修法會不會導致行政權因為財政的因素無法履行憲法義務嘛對不對只有碰到這條紅線的時候他可能會上綱到變成用憲法法庭來解決的這樣一個狀況如果沒有碰到這條紅線對不對他理論上應該是事權之間的調和跟配套措施我這樣解釋這樣提問應該沒有問題對不對好那您覺得目前的狀況3700億要申請釋憲合理嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"詹\", \"start\": 457.557, \"end\": 457.677, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 457.677, \"end\": 457.777, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"授\", \"start\": 457.777, \"end\": 457.917, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 457.917, \"end\": 458.077, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"曾\", \"start\": 458.077, \"end\": 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\"那再來就是大家非常關心的題目當然就是有關於死刑的存廢您在自傳上面表示說我們要嚴正的面對每一個申請事件的案件要妥適的尋覓出能顧及我國憲政實踐環境又能夠契合人權指標的最佳衝突調和或者是解決方案您自己個人的立場您支持廢除死刑嗎以目前的現況來講廢死我個人不支持\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 815.598, \"end\": 815.718, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 815.718, \"end\": 815.958, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 815.958, \"end\": 816.078, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 816.078, \"end\": 816.198, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 816.198, \"end\": 816.318, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 816.318, \"end\": 816.498, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 816.498, \"end\": 816.598, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 816.598, \"end\": 816.959, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 816.959, \"end\": 817.099, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 817.099, \"end\": 817.359, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 817.359, \"end\": 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\"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 835.025, \"end\": 835.805, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 835.805, \"end\": 836.025, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"支\", \"start\": 836.025, \"end\": 836.185, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 836.185, \"end\": 836.605, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"廢\"}, {\"word\": \"除\", \"start\": 836.605, \"end\": 836.745, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"死\", \"start\": 836.745, \"end\": 836.866, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"刑\", \"start\": 836.866, \"end\": 838.446, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 838.446, \"end\": 838.666, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 838.666, \"end\": 838.966, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 838.966, \"end\": 839.546, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 839.546, \"end\": 841.987, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"廢\"}, 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1.0}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 1086.845, \"end\": 1087.165, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1087.165, \"end\": 1087.745, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1087.745, \"end\": 1087.805, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1087.805, \"end\": 1087.965, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 1087.965, \"end\": 1088.586, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 1088.586, \"end\": 1088.826, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 1088.826, \"end\": 1089.186, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1089.186, \"end\": 1089.346, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1089.346, \"end\": 1089.506, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1089.506, \"end\": 1089.606, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1089.606, \"end\": 1089.766, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 1089.766, \"end\": 1089.926, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1089.926, \"end\": 1090.086, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"趣\", \"start\": 1090.086, \"end\": 1090.247, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1090.247, \"end\": 1090.327, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1090.327, \"end\": 1090.347, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}]}, {\"start\": 1091.988, \"end\": 1108.929, \"text\": \"這個前一段時間其實立法院有討論過一個議題一個概念我們現在這麼多的憲政衝突其實來自於到底誰是多數誰是少數所以我們現在的總統是百分之四十的選票就可以當選因為是選舉是一個這個殺咖嘟這樣子的一個情況那國會卻是嘲笑野大那當然就出現了到底\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 1091.988, \"end\": 1092.108, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1092.108, \"end\": 1092.188, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"段\", \"start\": 1092.188, \"end\": 1092.589, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 1092.589, \"end\": 1092.729, \"score\": 0.755}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 1092.729, \"end\": 1092.849, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 1092.849, \"end\": 1092.969, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 1092.969, \"end\": 1093.069, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1093.069, \"end\": 1093.93, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1093.93, \"end\": 1094.471, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1094.471, \"end\": 1094.671, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"概\", \"start\": 1094.671, \"end\": 1094.852, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"念\", \"start\": 1094.852, \"end\": 1095.112, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1095.112, \"end\": 1095.452, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1095.452, \"end\": 1095.633, 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{\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"誰\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1098.156, \"end\": 1098.276, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 1098.276, \"end\": 1098.456, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 1098.456, \"end\": 1099.017, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1099.017, \"end\": 1099.137, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1099.137, \"end\": 1099.537, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1099.537, \"end\": 1099.657, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1099.657, \"end\": 1100.138, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"總\"}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1100.138, \"end\": 1100.258, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"百\", \"start\": 1100.258, \"end\": 1100.338, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 1100.338, \"end\": 1100.418, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 1100.418, \"end\": 1100.518, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"四\", \"start\": 1100.518, \"end\": 1100.679, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"十\", \"start\": 1100.679, \"end\": 1100.779, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1100.779, \"end\": 1101.019, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"選\"}, {\"word\": \"票\", \"start\": 1101.019, \"end\": 1101.159, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1101.159, \"end\": 1101.259, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 1101.259, \"end\": 1101.58, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1101.58, \"end\": 1101.72, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"選\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 1101.72, \"end\": 1101.94, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1101.94, \"end\": 1102.741, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"選\"}, {\"word\": \"舉\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1102.741, \"end\": 1102.861, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1102.861, \"end\": 1103.762, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"殺\"}, {\"word\": \"咖\", \"start\": 1103.762, \"end\": 1104.543, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"嘟\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 1104.543, \"end\": 1104.623, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1104.623, \"end\": 1104.683, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1104.683, \"end\": 1104.884, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 1104.884, \"end\": 1105.104, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1105.104, \"end\": 1106.486, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"卻\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1106.486, \"end\": 1106.746, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"嘲\", \"start\": 1106.746, \"end\": 1106.886, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"笑\", \"start\": 1106.886, \"end\": 1107.026, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"野\", \"start\": 1107.026, \"end\": 1107.166, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 1107.166, \"end\": 1107.547, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1107.547, \"end\": 1107.927, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 1107.927, \"end\": 1108.088, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1108.088, \"end\": 1108.208, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 1108.208, \"end\": 1108.468, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 1108.468, \"end\": 1108.808, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 1108.808, \"end\": 1108.909, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 1108.909, \"end\": 1108.929, \"score\": 0.055}]}, {\"start\": 1109.669, \"end\": 1135.116, \"text\": \"誰比較重要對不對就衍生了很多的憲政僵局曾經有人主張我們用修法的方式來引入比照法國總統二輪選舉那當然執政黨這邊就主張這個是一定違憲的那憲法正確條文第二條裡面他寫的說總統要一起登記並且以多數為當選可是這樣子的概念這樣的一個精神跟一輪投票跟二輪投票有絕對的關係嗎我想請教一下被提名人的看法\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"誰\"}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 1109.669, \"end\": 1109.829, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 1109.829, \"end\": 1109.969, \"score\": 0.859}, 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0.931}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"感\", \"start\": 1203.916, \"end\": 1204.216, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 1204.216, \"end\": 1204.577, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 1204.577, \"end\": 1204.717, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 1204.717, \"end\": 1204.817, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1204.817, \"end\": 1204.897, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 1204.897, \"end\": 1205.017, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 1205.017, \"end\": 1205.037, \"score\": 0.288}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,641 --> 00:00:16,206\n謝謝主席我們詹貝提名人有請詹教授午安辛苦了\n\n2\n00:00:18,663 --> 00:00:41,642\n今天針對大法官被提名人提一些問題想跟您就教、跟您探討首先是有關於司法改革的部分根據TPPS今年5月15號公布的賴總統就任週年的民調司法改革是所有政策裡面滿意度最低的一項只有30%的人認為是滿意的而有高達58%的民眾他其實是非常不滿意的\n\n3\n00:00:42,262 --> 00:00:50,670\n那麼美麗島電子報在今年4月28號的民調大概有59.3%的人認為在司法的部分政府出現選擇性辦案的狀況57.9%的人認為政治力介入檢調機關辦案57.6%\n\n4\n00:00:58,243 --> 00:01:26,339\n認為政治介入司法案件差不多都有六成左右的民意對於現在台灣司法各項的表現是持非常高度質疑的一個狀況那麼司法改革的成效您覺得推動到現在您覺得表現如何司法改革是不是應該要重視我們整體社會對於司法的信任程度換言之司法公信力要如何來確保您目前針對司法改革的表現您是滿意的嗎謝謝委員的提問\n\n5\n00:01:30,458 --> 00:01:55,575\n司法改革的議題其實幾十年來一直是一個問題那前面幾位被提名人其實也有去回應他的成因何在那如果委員您是問我個人的一個看法的話當然司法改革不得不去考慮到民眾對司法的信賴\n\n6\n00:01:56,996 --> 00:02:17,038\n畢竟它是一個跟人民息息相關的事情人民對於國王的徵抄有所懷疑後面的公權力的行使其實都會受到撼動沒錯所以我認同委員這樣的一個看法司法改革當然要參著民眾的可信賴性\n\n7\n00:02:17,827 --> 00:02:45,334\n好,你又要掺著民眾的可信賴性,那我們就針對這個民眾認為政治力介入司法這樣的一個狀況,我們來稍微進行一下深入的一個討論因為您那幾個自傳裡面我大概也拜讀了,你寫說獨立審判其實是不可退讓的嘛,這個其實是法律人的非常重要的一個原則嘛如果不管是各級法官上到憲法法庭、下到各級法院,如果出現了獨立審判被質疑、被破壞的一個狀況,那其實就會出現這個司法公信力不足的狀況,那也連帶的會造成非常多的災難\n\n8\n00:02:46,494 --> 00:03:15,370\n那您認為現在的司法有獨立而且不受政治力影響嗎您會不會覺得您可不可以保證擔任大法官之後自己或同僚不會受到政治力的影響我可以保證我自己不會受到政治力的影響那我沒有辦法幫其他的人來做擔保這個是我很誠懇的跟委員回覆至少我自己可控的部分我可以在這裡做一個保證其實這個就是大概是\n\n9\n00:03:16,235 --> 00:03:37,860\n最抽象但是也最難回答的題目啊因為我就舉一個例子好了比如說上一次我們在進行這個司法官大法官的這個人事同意權的審查跟投票的時候到最後這個我們劉靜儀被提名人他到最後其實是被民進黨也一起封殺因為按照最後的票數的結果來看因為民眾黨是支持的如果當初執政黨願意支持執政黨自己提出來的大法官的人選他其實是有辦法過關的\n\n10\n00:03:38,800 --> 00:04:06,457\n但後來我們這個執政黨黨團的總召柯建民講說封殺的理由是因為他多次辱罵民進黨所以如果支持他我們就要開除黨籍這樣算不算是一種政治力的介入您怎麼看待這樣的事情大法官適格性的審查我個人的解讀應該是專業知識操守風骨跟獨立性\n\n11\n00:04:07,819 --> 00:04:24,674\n除此以外當然站在大院的立場必須也要為選民而來把關但是應該還是環繞在那幾個因素我覺得才是一個審查的核心標準好\n\n12\n00:04:26,504 --> 00:04:48,707\n謝謝因為我們之所以會這樣問因為這個我想也不是針對您個人而是所有被提名的大法官審查的時候普遍上社會都會很擔心尤其是現在的政治局勢是比較紛亂的在這樣的一個情況之下社會上都會擔心我們會不會到最後立法院通過最後都是會配合政治期待的大法官而不是獨立自主的大法官這樣子的一個社會的要求跟影響\n\n13\n00:04:49,948 --> 00:05:16,710\n總是有一些質疑我們今天既然代表民意我們就把這個東西如實來做反應那請問您要如何在司法信任度很低的這樣一個環境之下建立您個人的未來有沒有機會做大法官您如果確保自己的公正性您能不能提個具體的例子或怎麼樣來做一下說明好謝謝委員那我有補充說明的機會我不論是在口頭報告或者是回覆各黨團的問卷裡面我都提到這樣的一個觀點\n\n14\n00:05:20,781 --> 00:05:39,919\n維持審判獨立它是一個主觀上的確信如何讓外界的人民能夠知道這個主觀上的確信確實是客觀可信的我擔任學術研究工作者擔任學校的老師超過20年的資歷\n\n15\n00:05:42,984 --> 00:06:10,757\n我的著作應該也不算少其實這個就是一個可檢驗的客觀標準可以看我是不是有見解的擺盪是不是在論述當中提出具體有效的說法跟邏輯對不對有傾向於特定的政治立場所以換言之你可以保證在您過去教學的歷程中或曾經出版的著作中所行述的這些原則跟標準會被帶到如果你有性就任大法官的話他會成為這樣一個準則我可以這樣解釋嗎\n\n16\n00:06:13,133 --> 00:06:15,446\n是的我目前也是这样的一个看法\n\n17\n00:06:15,882 --> 00:06:44,352\n好謝謝那我們接下來針對幾個因為現在這個憲法法庭好像這個越來越來越吃重了非常多的因為憲政爭議等等或者是其實他單純只是行政立法之間的一個僵局然後好像動不動都要上綱到憲法法庭來做討論那既然立法院是民意的機關那這些相關的一些法案我們也希望可以了解一下被提名人的看法首先我想請教一下這個被提名人針對財政收支劃分法的看法因為這我有特別做了一點點功課\n\n18\n00:06:45,592 --> 00:07:01,215\n政治大學的講堂上面,其實你有把這個當成一個案例,來跟學生來做研討跟說明其實這個簡單來說,在野黨大家都認為說我們增加了分配給地方政府的這樣一個裁員,有助於改善城鄉差距也好\n\n19\n00:07:01,736 --> 00:07:15,861\n或者是加強地方自治地方政府施政的效率等等這些好處就不再贅述那麼執政黨當然認為這個影響了中央施政的節奏跟計畫那最後他們採用的方法是用釋憲的方式他們認為這個違反了憲法第147條\n\n20\n00:07:19,242 --> 00:07:32,154\n憲法第147條講說中央為謀省與省之間的經濟平衡發展對於評級是省那當然是用省這個字當然是因為它過去的時代脈絡但簡單來講其實就是對於地方政府應該要著於補助為了謀求縣與縣之間的經濟平衡發展應該著於補助它是一個原則性的規範\n\n21\n00:07:37,557 --> 00:08:01,445\n詹教授您曾經在政治大學上課裡面就有談關鍵爭議其實是說立法權的修法會不會導致行政權因為財政的因素無法履行憲法義務嘛對不對只有碰到這條紅線的時候他可能會上綱到變成用憲法法庭來解決的這樣一個狀況如果沒有碰到這條紅線對不對他理論上應該是事權之間的調和跟配套措施我這樣解釋這樣提問應該沒有問題對不對好那您覺得目前的狀況3700億要申請釋憲合理嗎\n\n22\n00:08:08,100 --> 00:08:27,414\n還是跟委員報告其一就是這個案子已經細數在憲法法庭其二3700億或3100億它在實際上的各憲法機關業務的執行上面扮演什麼樣的角色這恐怕是要精準的去一一盤點\n\n23\n00:08:29,295 --> 00:08:45,846\n很抱歉我也只能夠按照您剛所提出的一般性的指標跟您做回覆也就是說財政是數證之母所以財政會不會構成到違憲的狀況我目前的基本立場是會不會去撼動\n\n24\n00:08:47,447 --> 00:09:03,265\n這個法定包含憲法層次跟法律層次架空了他作為一個憲法機關職權行使的本質性如果這個底線沒有去碰到縱使他可能會有摯愛難行\n\n25\n00:09:05,273 --> 00:09:32,955\n但是摯愛難行跟財政危機與違憲其實是還有距離的還有距離,好謝謝我們還是針對幾個指向的問題跟財政收支劃分法指向的問題跟被提名來做一個探討第一個,這個您覺得這個決定中央跟地方的財政分配比例的這件事情它是不是行政權的專屬權力還是其實立法權也可以基於反映民意的過程之中來進行修正跟討論\n\n26\n00:09:34,338 --> 00:09:45,574\n依照我們目前的法制設計立法權在這裡是居於一個先導的地位也就是說它可以制定一個框架立法\n\n27\n00:09:46,294 --> 00:10:11,865\n在這個框架範圍之下行政權可以在細部去做精準的細部分配對因為它畢竟是一部法嘛對不對所以立法權它當然有一定的角色嘛謝謝那現在行政端主張財政運作困難您剛剛其實已經回答得差不多了啦就是說具體來講到底怎麼樣叫財政運作困難對不對這個還是說它其實只是一個行政效率跟事權分配的問題您目前\n\n28\n00:10:13,103 --> 00:10:25,650\n了解的狀況因為你認為還要經過精算跟分析所以你沒有辦法在這裡給我們答案嗎例如說在某份問卷裡面有提到某個這個\n\n29\n00:10:28,976 --> 00:10:54,174\n監察院他對外宣稱96%的預算被刪除我不知道這個資訊對不對我今天談的是財政收支劃分法以目前來講重新劃分中央跟地方財政的分配我覺得錢跟權要做對等的設計\n\n30\n00:10:56,721 --> 00:11:25,988\n我也知道委員現在正好在處理地方制度法的修正你也有做一下功課,謝謝我現在就討論這個事其實這就是權跟權事權的討論我們談到事權討論的這一部分請問事權的討論它應該是行政單位內部因為它是中央跟地方的分工的問題也許要參酌一些民意的要求所以立法院可能有角色你覺得司法院用大法官、市縣等等的角色來介入事權的分配是合理的嗎?\n\n31\n00:11:27,748 --> 00:11:42,549\n呃陳儒剛剛跟委員報告如果這個是有碰到底線的疑慮所以碰到底線才要出手嘛對不對我舉一個例子好了因為我們大概有具體的例子譬如說今天如果把中央所有可以調度的資源通通一刀切通通劃到了地方政府\n\n32\n00:11:43,470 --> 00:12:06,607\n對不對讓你中央本來一進的政策是完全沒有辦法推行那這個本席也同意嘛對不對這當然就出現了很嚴重的問題就是您在自傳裡面或者在回答的時候講到就是說中央行政權被架控的問題但今天如果只是改變分配的比例你中央還是有一定的數額可以做調度的時候請問有碰到紅線嗎如果按照委員的假設情況的話可能離違憲的距離還\n\n33\n00:12:09,091 --> 00:12:25,011\n還比較大對不對這我就跟貝提敏我們也交換一下意見以現在3700億來講他當然影響了跟過去相比中央當然要多分一份錢的到地方但你要講因為這樣他所有預算都沒有辦法執行或者是行政權被架空這我想我講的應該不是假設啦\n\n34\n00:12:25,672 --> 00:12:54,575\n當然沒關係這個後面有詳細的數據這我想以遭公信是沒有問題的所以我還蠻目前為止還蠻欣賞目前被提名人的回答這個您如果是成為大法官在本案如果你有機會參與審理因為這個已經被提到市縣裡面您比較傾向立法權依法擴大地方財政主張這樣的正當性還是比較傾向行政院應該有更大的控管財務的自由我自己從事地方自治多年的教學\n\n35\n00:12:55,902 --> 00:13:04,861\n我自己向來的主張就是當我們在把自治權回歸或下放給地方自治團體的時候\n\n36\n00:13:06,874 --> 00:13:33,909\n跟著錢其實也要下去的否則這就會讓有權無錢的窘境所以一個前提命題是假設我們的中央跟地方的權限劃分我們要盡可能的朝向優於地方的方向去位移的話我會認同錢要跟著下去好謝謝\n\n37\n00:13:35,598 --> 00:14:03,648\n那再來就是大家非常關心的題目當然就是有關於死刑的存廢您在自傳上面表示說我們要嚴正的面對每一個申請事件的案件要妥適的尋覓出能顧及我國憲政實踐環境又能夠契合人權指標的最佳衝突調和或者是解決方案您自己個人的立場您支持廢除死刑嗎以目前的現況來講廢死我個人不支持\n\n38\n00:14:04,738 --> 00:14:34,159\n我的理由在於從憲法的角度來看死刑的潛理解是因為有一個故意的殺人罪的成立殺人罪的形成憲法的另外一個意味著有一條人命或者是數條人命的生命權被剝奪了所以死刑其實是一個權益調和後\n\n39\n00:14:35,761 --> 00:14:46,036\n國家昭告民眾何謂正義的一種方案當然這個方案不是很古不變我們可以當\n\n40\n00:14:47,202 --> 00:15:14,665\n人民可以慢慢接受可能有另外一種機制也足以彰顯正義的時候或許到那個時機我們可以嚴正的考慮事實不要再以剝奪生命的方式來調和基本權的衝突狀況所以換言之你認為基本上要談論這麼深水區的議題之前一定要兼顧司法公義性以及社會大眾對於司法公平性的期待對不對好謝謝那目前\n\n41\n00:15:15,888 --> 00:15:35,986\n我個人認為這個題目本來就應該經過深切的討論取得社會的最大公約數然後再來做思考但問題是這樣喔憲判第八號其實已經判下去了嘛他們針對死刑的要件雖然他宣告死刑是合憲的但他其實加諸了非常多從我們民意代表的角度來看非常不合理的\n\n42\n00:15:36,266 --> 00:15:56,992\n各項邏輯包含各級審、各審級需要有一致判決的這樣子的一個制度創設而這樣子的一個標準其實並沒有出現在任何的憲法條文、法律條文甚至是當初申請人的主張之中請問被提名人憲法法庭有無權力自行去創設一套高於立法機關的量刑機制\n\n43\n00:16:01,033 --> 00:16:25,978\n這個問題我在回覆黨團的問卷裡面我有提到雖然站在人民的立場或是未來執行大法官職務的立場大法官的判決有拘束力這個我完全認同但是如果委員您要問我個人的意見我對於這個各省級一致決的這樣的一個\n\n44\n00:16:27,834 --> 00:16:55,781\n憲法法庭的創設意見我是有一些比較不一樣的想法其實在憲判八的解釋理由書裡面有特別以並於指出這樣的方式去談論國法案件在那裡其實沒有去挑戰國民法官法裡面的非一致決他只要求三位的職業法官要一致決\n\n45\n00:16:57,523 --> 00:17:19,855\n那在判決的主文裡面其實也沒有彰顯這樣的職業法官一致決的話語他只說各省級一致決這個就是可怕的地方你們做出來因為是大法官法界的最高的榮譽其實你們未來如果做了大法官都掌握了非常非常大的話語權\n\n46\n00:17:20,782 --> 00:17:43,591\n哪怕他不是刑於判決主文或什麼他其實都有很有可能會影響整個法界大家的這樣子的一個思考的方向然後從而去影響實務上的判決那麼實務上來講這憲判八字號這出來之後你當然就看到越來越多有這樣的一個狀況包含什麼非罪嚴重之罪行未符合一字決等等的他其實就造成了社會很大的恐慌我們真的非常希望因為\n\n47\n00:17:44,071 --> 00:18:10,347\n如果我們要重新討論這樣的事情,大概只有透過重新釋憲的方式再來重新去改善這個有大法官造法疑慮的一個憲法判決這一部分我們希望如果您有幸可以成為大法官可以本於超然獨立跟您過去一貫的主張用一個比較能夠讓社會大眾接受維護司法公信力的方式來做思考這是本席給你的一個建議最後一點點時間我要問一個比較有趣的一個問題\n\n48\n00:18:11,988 --> 00:18:28,929\n這個前一段時間其實立法院有討論過一個議題一個概念我們現在這麼多的憲政衝突其實來自於到底誰是多數誰是少數所以我們現在的總統是百分之四十的選票就可以當選因為是選舉是一個這個殺咖嘟這樣子的一個情況那國會卻是嘲笑野大那當然就出現了到底\n\n49\n00:18:29,669 --> 00:18:55,116\n誰比較重要對不對就衍生了很多的憲政僵局曾經有人主張我們用修法的方式來引入比照法國總統二輪選舉那當然執政黨這邊就主張這個是一定違憲的那憲法正確條文第二條裡面他寫的說總統要一起登記並且以多數為當選可是這樣子的概念這樣的一個精神跟一輪投票跟二輪投票有絕對的關係嗎我想請教一下被提名人的看法\n\n50\n00:18:56,369 --> 00:19:25,240\n我個人的認為基本上還是取決於我們的總統副總統選罷法裡面目前的法律明定是相對多數決也就是說相對多數決的一組勝出那這個在大院的立法權的情況之下其實是可以去思考有沒有可能對這個當選的門檻反於他的公信力跟民主正當性的強化\n\n51\n00:19:25,980 --> 00:19:54,515\n再去做一個檢討換言之如果立法院經過了決議討論決議之後修法通過把它變成二輪投票制其實它並不會違背憲法的精神對不對因為不管是達到一個門檻或者是相對多數它其實都是多數我覺得憲法框架應該是一個相對大的一個範圍對憲法沒有設定到這麼細緻的投票門檻的規定所以如果真的立法院討論把它變成二輪投票它其實也是一個可以被思考的方案而且它不會違反憲法精神我可以這樣認定這是您的想法嗎\n\n52\n00:19:55,454 --> 00:20:05,037\n從國民主權的角度來講,我認為並沒有顯然的違憲之餘好,謝謝,以上是我針對被提名人的質詢,感謝您清楚的回答,謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1641\t16206\t謝謝主席我們詹貝提名人有請詹教授午安辛苦了\n18663\t41642\t今天針對大法官被提名人提一些問題想跟您就教、跟您探討首先是有關於司法改革的部分根據TPPS今年5月15號公布的賴總統就任週年的民調司法改革是所有政策裡面滿意度最低的一項只有30%的人認為是滿意的而有高達58%的民眾他其實是非常不滿意的\n42262\t50670\t那麼美麗島電子報在今年4月28號的民調大概有59.3%的人認為在司法的部分政府出現選擇性辦案的狀況57.9%的人認為政治力介入檢調機關辦案57.6%\n58243\t86339\t認為政治介入司法案件差不多都有六成左右的民意對於現在台灣司法各項的表現是持非常高度質疑的一個狀況那麼司法改革的成效您覺得推動到現在您覺得表現如何司法改革是不是應該要重視我們整體社會對於司法的信任程度換言之司法公信力要如何來確保您目前針對司法改革的表現您是滿意的嗎謝謝委員的提問\n90458\t115575\t司法改革的議題其實幾十年來一直是一個問題那前面幾位被提名人其實也有去回應他的成因何在那如果委員您是問我個人的一個看法的話當然司法改革不得不去考慮到民眾對司法的信賴\n116996\t137038\t畢竟它是一個跟人民息息相關的事情人民對於國王的徵抄有所懷疑後面的公權力的行使其實都會受到撼動沒錯所以我認同委員這樣的一個看法司法改革當然要參著民眾的可信賴性\n137827\t165334\t好,你又要掺著民眾的可信賴性,那我們就針對這個民眾認為政治力介入司法這樣的一個狀況,我們來稍微進行一下深入的一個討論因為您那幾個自傳裡面我大概也拜讀了,你寫說獨立審判其實是不可退讓的嘛,這個其實是法律人的非常重要的一個原則嘛如果不管是各級法官上到憲法法庭、下到各級法院,如果出現了獨立審判被質疑、被破壞的一個狀況,那其實就會出現這個司法公信力不足的狀況,那也連帶的會造成非常多的災難\n166494\t195370\t那您認為現在的司法有獨立而且不受政治力影響嗎您會不會覺得您可不可以保證擔任大法官之後自己或同僚不會受到政治力的影響我可以保證我自己不會受到政治力的影響那我沒有辦法幫其他的人來做擔保這個是我很誠懇的跟委員回覆至少我自己可控的部分我可以在這裡做一個保證其實這個就是大概是\n196235\t217860\t最抽象但是也最難回答的題目啊因為我就舉一個例子好了比如說上一次我們在進行這個司法官大法官的這個人事同意權的審查跟投票的時候到最後這個我們劉靜儀被提名人他到最後其實是被民進黨也一起封殺因為按照最後的票數的結果來看因為民眾黨是支持的如果當初執政黨願意支持執政黨自己提出來的大法官的人選他其實是有辦法過關的\n218800\t246457\t但後來我們這個執政黨黨團的總召柯建民講說封殺的理由是因為他多次辱罵民進黨所以如果支持他我們就要開除黨籍這樣算不算是一種政治力的介入您怎麼看待這樣的事情大法官適格性的審查我個人的解讀應該是專業知識操守風骨跟獨立性\n247819\t264674\t除此以外當然站在大院的立場必須也要為選民而來把關但是應該還是環繞在那幾個因素我覺得才是一個審查的核心標準好\n266504\t288707\t謝謝因為我們之所以會這樣問因為這個我想也不是針對您個人而是所有被提名的大法官審查的時候普遍上社會都會很擔心尤其是現在的政治局勢是比較紛亂的在這樣的一個情況之下社會上都會擔心我們會不會到最後立法院通過最後都是會配合政治期待的大法官而不是獨立自主的大法官這樣子的一個社會的要求跟影響\n289948\t316710\t總是有一些質疑我們今天既然代表民意我們就把這個東西如實來做反應那請問您要如何在司法信任度很低的這樣一個環境之下建立您個人的未來有沒有機會做大法官您如果確保自己的公正性您能不能提個具體的例子或怎麼樣來做一下說明好 謝謝委員那我有補充說明的機會我不論是在口頭報告或者是回覆各黨團的問卷裡面我都提到這樣的一個觀點\n320781\t339919\t維持審判獨立它是一個主觀上的確信如何讓外界的人民能夠知道這個主觀上的確信確實是客觀可信的我擔任學術研究工作者擔任學校的老師超過20年的資歷\n342984\t370757\t我的著作應該也不算少其實這個就是一個可檢驗的客觀標準可以看我是不是有見解的擺盪是不是在論述當中提出具體有效的說法跟邏輯對不對有傾向於特定的政治立場所以換言之你可以保證在您過去教學的歷程中或曾經出版的著作中所行述的這些原則跟標準會被帶到如果你有性就任大法官的話他會成為這樣一個準則我可以這樣解釋嗎\n373133\t375446\t是的 我目前也是这样的一个看法\n375882\t404352\t好 謝謝那我們接下來針對幾個因為現在這個憲法法庭好像這個越來越來越吃重了非常多的因為憲政爭議等等或者是其實他單純只是行政立法之間的一個僵局然後好像動不動都要上綱到憲法法庭來做討論那既然立法院是民意的機關那這些相關的一些法案我們也希望可以了解一下被提名人的看法首先我想請教一下這個被提名人針對財政收支劃分法的看法因為這我有特別做了一點點功課\n405592\t421215\t政治大學的講堂上面,其實你有把這個當成一個案例,來跟學生來做研討跟說明其實這個簡單來說,在野黨大家都認為說我們增加了分配給地方政府的這樣一個裁員,有助於改善城鄉差距也好\n421736\t435861\t或者是加強地方自治地方政府施政的效率等等這些好處就不再贅述那麼執政黨當然認為這個影響了中央施政的節奏跟計畫那最後他們採用的方法是用釋憲的方式他們認為這個違反了憲法第147條\n439242\t452154\t憲法第147條講說中央為謀省與省之間的經濟平衡發展對於評級是省那當然是用省這個字當然是因為它過去的時代脈絡但簡單來講其實就是對於地方政府應該要著於補助為了謀求縣與縣之間的經濟平衡發展應該著於補助它是一個原則性的規範\n457557\t481445\t詹教授您曾經在政治大學上課裡面就有談關鍵爭議其實是說立法權的修法會不會導致行政權因為財政的因素無法履行憲法義務嘛對不對只有碰到這條紅線的時候他可能會上綱到變成用憲法法庭來解決的這樣一個狀況如果沒有碰到這條紅線對不對他理論上應該是事權之間的調和跟配套措施我這樣解釋這樣提問應該沒有問題對不對好那您覺得目前的狀況3700億要申請釋憲合理嗎\n488100\t507414\t還是跟委員報告 其一就是這個案子已經細數在憲法法庭其二3700億或3100億它在實際上的各憲法機關業務的執行上面扮演什麼樣的角色這恐怕是要精準的去一一盤點\n509295\t525846\t很抱歉我也只能夠按照您剛所提出的一般性的指標跟您做回覆也就是說財政是數證之母所以財政會不會構成到違憲的狀況我目前的基本立場是會不會去撼動\n527447\t543265\t這個法定包含憲法層次跟法律層次架空了他作為一個憲法機關職權行使的本質性如果這個底線沒有去碰到縱使他可能會有摯愛難行\n545273\t572955\t但是摯愛難行跟財政危機與違憲其實是還有距離的還有距離,好謝謝我們還是針對幾個指向的問題跟財政收支劃分法指向的問題跟被提名來做一個探討第一個,這個您覺得這個決定中央跟地方的財政分配比例的這件事情它是不是行政權的專屬權力還是其實立法權也可以基於反映民意的過程之中來進行修正跟討論\n574338\t585574\t依照我們目前的法制設計立法權在這裡是居於一個先導的地位也就是說它可以制定一個框架立法\n586294\t611865\t在這個框架範圍之下行政權可以在細部去做精準的細部分配對 因為它畢竟是一部法嘛 對不對所以立法權它當然有一定的角色嘛 謝謝那現在行政端主張財政運作困難您剛剛其實已經回答得差不多了啦就是說具體來講到底怎麼樣叫財政運作困難 對不對這個還是說它其實只是一個行政效率跟事權分配的問題您目前\n613103\t625650\t了解的狀況因為你認為還要經過精算跟分析所以你沒有辦法在這裡給我們答案嗎例如說在某份問卷裡面有提到某個這個\n628976\t654174\t監察院他對外宣稱96%的預算被刪除我不知道這個資訊對不對我今天談的是財政收支劃分法以目前來講重新劃分中央跟地方財政的分配我覺得錢跟權要做對等的設計\n656721\t685988\t我也知道委員現在正好在處理地方制度法的修正你也有做一下功課,謝謝我現在就討論這個事其實這就是權跟權事權的討論我們談到事權討論的這一部分請問事權的討論它應該是行政單位內部因為它是中央跟地方的分工的問題也許要參酌一些民意的要求所以立法院可能有角色你覺得司法院用大法官、市縣等等的角色來介入事權的分配是合理的嗎?\n687748\t702549\t呃陳儒剛剛跟委員報告如果這個是有碰到底線的疑慮所以碰到底線才要出手嘛對不對我舉一個例子好了因為我們大概有具體的例子譬如說今天如果把中央所有可以調度的資源通通一刀切通通劃到了地方政府\n703470\t726607\t對不對 讓你中央本來一進的政策是完全沒有辦法推行那這個本席也同意嘛 對不對這當然就出現了很嚴重的問題就是您在自傳裡面或者在回答的時候講到就是說中央行政權被架控的問題但今天如果只是改變分配的比例你中央還是有一定的數額可以做調度的時候請問有碰到紅線嗎如果按照委員的假設情況的話可能離違憲的距離還\n729091\t745011\t還比較大對不對這我就跟貝提敏我們也交換一下意見以現在3700億來講他當然影響了跟過去相比中央當然要多分一份錢的到地方但你要講因為這樣他所有預算都沒有辦法執行或者是行政權被架空這我想我講的應該不是假設啦\n745672\t774575\t當然沒關係這個後面有詳細的數據這我想以遭公信是沒有問題的所以我還蠻目前為止還蠻欣賞目前被提名人的回答這個您如果是成為大法官在本案如果你有機會參與審理因為這個已經被提到市縣裡面您比較傾向立法權依法擴大地方財政主張這樣的正當性還是比較傾向行政院應該有更大的控管財務的自由我自己從事地方自治多年的教學\n775902\t784861\t我自己向來的主張就是當我們在把自治權回歸或下放給地方自治團體的時候\n786874\t813909\t跟著錢其實也要下去的否則這就會讓有權無錢的窘境所以一個前提命題是假設我們的中央跟地方的權限劃分我們要盡可能的朝向優於地方的方向去位移的話我會認同錢要跟著下去好 謝謝\n815598\t843648\t那再來就是大家非常關心的題目當然就是有關於死刑的存廢您在自傳上面表示說我們要嚴正的面對每一個申請事件的案件要妥適的尋覓出能顧及我國憲政實踐環境又能夠契合人權指標的最佳衝突調和或者是解決方案您自己個人的立場您支持廢除死刑嗎以目前的現況來講廢死我個人不支持\n844738\t874159\t我的理由在於從憲法的角度來看死刑的潛理解是因為有一個故意的殺人罪的成立殺人罪的形成憲法的另外一個意味著有一條人命或者是數條人命的生命權被剝奪了所以死刑其實是一個權益調和後\n875761\t886036\t國家昭告民眾何謂正義的一種方案當然這個方案不是很古不變我們可以當\n887202\t914665\t人民可以慢慢接受可能有另外一種機制也足以彰顯正義的時候或許到那個時機我們可以嚴正的考慮事實不要再以剝奪生命的方式來調和基本權的衝突狀況所以換言之你認為基本上要談論這麼深水區的議題之前一定要兼顧司法公義性以及社會大眾對於司法公平性的期待對不對好 謝謝那目前\n915888\t935986\t我個人認為這個題目本來就應該經過深切的討論取得社會的最大公約數然後再來做思考但問題是這樣喔憲判第八號其實已經判下去了嘛他們針對死刑的要件雖然他宣告死刑是合憲的但他其實加諸了非常多從我們民意代表的角度來看非常不合理的\n936266\t956992\t各項邏輯包含各級審、各審級需要有一致判決的這樣子的一個制度創設而這樣子的一個標準其實並沒有出現在任何的憲法條文、法律條文甚至是當初申請人的主張之中請問被提名人憲法法庭有無權力自行去創設一套高於立法機關的量刑機制\n961033\t985978\t這個問題我在回覆黨團的問卷裡面我有提到雖然站在人民的立場或是未來執行大法官職務的立場大法官的判決有拘束力這個我完全認同但是如果委員您要問我個人的意見我對於這個各省級一致決的這樣的一個\n987834\t1015781\t憲法法庭的創設意見我是有一些比較不一樣的想法其實在憲判八的解釋理由書裡面有特別以並於指出這樣的方式去談論國法案件在那裡其實沒有去挑戰國民法官法裡面的非一致決他只要求三位的職業法官要一致決\n1017523\t1039855\t那在判決的主文裡面其實也沒有彰顯這樣的職業法官一致決的話語他只說各省級一致決這個就是可怕的地方你們做出來因為是大法官法界的最高的榮譽其實你們未來如果做了大法官都掌握了非常非常大的話語權\n1040782\t1063591\t哪怕他不是刑於判決主文或什麼他其實都有很有可能會影響整個法界大家的這樣子的一個思考的方向然後從而去影響實務上的判決那麼實務上來講這憲判八字號這出來之後你當然就看到越來越多有這樣的一個狀況包含什麼非罪嚴重之罪行未符合一字決等等的他其實就造成了社會很大的恐慌我們真的非常希望因為\n1064071\t1090347\t如果我們要重新討論這樣的事情,大概只有透過重新釋憲的方式再來重新去改善這個有大法官造法疑慮的一個憲法判決這一部分我們希望如果您有幸可以成為大法官可以本於超然獨立跟您過去一貫的主張用一個比較能夠讓社會大眾接受維護司法公信力的方式來做思考這是本席給你的一個建議最後一點點時間我要問一個比較有趣的一個問題\n1091988\t1108929\t這個前一段時間其實立法院有討論過一個議題一個概念我們現在這麼多的憲政衝突其實來自於到底誰是多數誰是少數所以我們現在的總統是百分之四十的選票就可以當選因為是選舉是一個這個殺咖嘟這樣子的一個情況那國會卻是嘲笑野大那當然就出現了到底\n1109669\t1135116\t誰比較重要對不對就衍生了很多的憲政僵局曾經有人主張我們用修法的方式來引入比照法國總統二輪選舉那當然執政黨這邊就主張這個是一定違憲的那憲法正確條文第二條裡面他寫的說總統要一起登記並且以多數為當選可是這樣子的概念這樣的一個精神跟一輪投票跟二輪投票有絕對的關係嗎我想請教一下被提名人的看法\n1136369\t1165240\t我個人的認為基本上還是取決於我們的總統副總統選罷法裡面目前的法律明定是相對多數決也就是說相對多數決的一組勝出那這個在大院的立法權的情況之下其實是可以去思考有沒有可能對這個當選的門檻反於他的公信力跟民主正當性的強化\n1165980\t1194515\t再去做一個檢討換言之如果立法院經過了決議討論決議之後修法通過把它變成二輪投票制其實它並不會違背憲法的精神對不對因為不管是達到一個門檻或者是相對多數它其實都是多數我覺得憲法框架應該是一個相對大的一個範圍對憲法沒有設定到這麼細緻的投票門檻的規定所以如果真的立法院討論把它變成二輪投票它其實也是一個可以被思考的方案而且它不會違反憲法精神我可以這樣認定這是您的想法嗎\n1195454\t1205037\t從國民主權的角度來講,我認為並沒有顯然的違憲之餘好,謝謝,以上是我針對被提名人的質詢,感謝您清楚的回答,謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席我們詹貝提名人有請詹教授午安辛苦了\n今天針對大法官被提名人提一些問題想跟您就教、跟您探討首先是有關於司法改革的部分根據TPPS今年5月15號公布的賴總統就任週年的民調司法改革是所有政策裡面滿意度最低的一項只有30%的人認為是滿意的而有高達58%的民眾他其實是非常不滿意的\n那麼美麗島電子報在今年4月28號的民調大概有59.3%的人認為在司法的部分政府出現選擇性辦案的狀況57.9%的人認為政治力介入檢調機關辦案57.6%\n認為政治介入司法案件差不多都有六成左右的民意對於現在台灣司法各項的表現是持非常高度質疑的一個狀況那麼司法改革的成效您覺得推動到現在您覺得表現如何司法改革是不是應該要重視我們整體社會對於司法的信任程度換言之司法公信力要如何來確保您目前針對司法改革的表現您是滿意的嗎謝謝委員的提問\n司法改革的議題其實幾十年來一直是一個問題那前面幾位被提名人其實也有去回應他的成因何在那如果委員您是問我個人的一個看法的話當然司法改革不得不去考慮到民眾對司法的信賴\n畢竟它是一個跟人民息息相關的事情人民對於國王的徵抄有所懷疑後面的公權力的行使其實都會受到撼動沒錯所以我認同委員這樣的一個看法司法改革當然要參著民眾的可信賴性\n好,你又要掺著民眾的可信賴性,那我們就針對這個民眾認為政治力介入司法這樣的一個狀況,我們來稍微進行一下深入的一個討論因為您那幾個自傳裡面我大概也拜讀了,你寫說獨立審判其實是不可退讓的嘛,這個其實是法律人的非常重要的一個原則嘛如果不管是各級法官上到憲法法庭、下到各級法院,如果出現了獨立審判被質疑、被破壞的一個狀況,那其實就會出現這個司法公信力不足的狀況,那也連帶的會造成非常多的災難\n那您認為現在的司法有獨立而且不受政治力影響嗎您會不會覺得您可不可以保證擔任大法官之後自己或同僚不會受到政治力的影響我可以保證我自己不會受到政治力的影響那我沒有辦法幫其他的人來做擔保這個是我很誠懇的跟委員回覆至少我自己可控的部分我可以在這裡做一個保證其實這個就是大概是\n最抽象但是也最難回答的題目啊因為我就舉一個例子好了比如說上一次我們在進行這個司法官大法官的這個人事同意權的審查跟投票的時候到最後這個我們劉靜儀被提名人他到最後其實是被民進黨也一起封殺因為按照最後的票數的結果來看因為民眾黨是支持的如果當初執政黨願意支持執政黨自己提出來的大法官的人選他其實是有辦法過關的\n但後來我們這個執政黨黨團的總召柯建民講說封殺的理由是因為他多次辱罵民進黨所以如果支持他我們就要開除黨籍這樣算不算是一種政治力的介入您怎麼看待這樣的事情大法官適格性的審查我個人的解讀應該是專業知識操守風骨跟獨立性\n除此以外當然站在大院的立場必須也要為選民而來把關但是應該還是環繞在那幾個因素我覺得才是一個審查的核心標準好\n謝謝因為我們之所以會這樣問因為這個我想也不是針對您個人而是所有被提名的大法官審查的時候普遍上社會都會很擔心尤其是現在的政治局勢是比較紛亂的在這樣的一個情況之下社會上都會擔心我們會不會到最後立法院通過最後都是會配合政治期待的大法官而不是獨立自主的大法官這樣子的一個社會的要求跟影響\n總是有一些質疑我們今天既然代表民意我們就把這個東西如實來做反應那請問您要如何在司法信任度很低的這樣一個環境之下建立您個人的未來有沒有機會做大法官您如果確保自己的公正性您能不能提個具體的例子或怎麼樣來做一下說明好 謝謝委員那我有補充說明的機會我不論是在口頭報告或者是回覆各黨團的問卷裡面我都提到這樣的一個觀點\n維持審判獨立它是一個主觀上的確信如何讓外界的人民能夠知道這個主觀上的確信確實是客觀可信的我擔任學術研究工作者擔任學校的老師超過20年的資歷\n我的著作應該也不算少其實這個就是一個可檢驗的客觀標準可以看我是不是有見解的擺盪是不是在論述當中提出具體有效的說法跟邏輯對不對有傾向於特定的政治立場所以換言之你可以保證在您過去教學的歷程中或曾經出版的著作中所行述的這些原則跟標準會被帶到如果你有性就任大法官的話他會成為這樣一個準則我可以這樣解釋嗎\n是的 我目前也是这样的一个看法\n好 謝謝那我們接下來針對幾個因為現在這個憲法法庭好像這個越來越來越吃重了非常多的因為憲政爭議等等或者是其實他單純只是行政立法之間的一個僵局然後好像動不動都要上綱到憲法法庭來做討論那既然立法院是民意的機關那這些相關的一些法案我們也希望可以了解一下被提名人的看法首先我想請教一下這個被提名人針對財政收支劃分法的看法因為這我有特別做了一點點功課\n政治大學的講堂上面,其實你有把這個當成一個案例,來跟學生來做研討跟說明其實這個簡單來說,在野黨大家都認為說我們增加了分配給地方政府的這樣一個裁員,有助於改善城鄉差距也好\n或者是加強地方自治地方政府施政的效率等等這些好處就不再贅述那麼執政黨當然認為這個影響了中央施政的節奏跟計畫那最後他們採用的方法是用釋憲的方式他們認為這個違反了憲法第147條\n憲法第147條講說中央為謀省與省之間的經濟平衡發展對於評級是省那當然是用省這個字當然是因為它過去的時代脈絡但簡單來講其實就是對於地方政府應該要著於補助為了謀求縣與縣之間的經濟平衡發展應該著於補助它是一個原則性的規範\n詹教授您曾經在政治大學上課裡面就有談關鍵爭議其實是說立法權的修法會不會導致行政權因為財政的因素無法履行憲法義務嘛對不對只有碰到這條紅線的時候他可能會上綱到變成用憲法法庭來解決的這樣一個狀況如果沒有碰到這條紅線對不對他理論上應該是事權之間的調和跟配套措施我這樣解釋這樣提問應該沒有問題對不對好那您覺得目前的狀況3700億要申請釋憲合理嗎\n還是跟委員報告 其一就是這個案子已經細數在憲法法庭其二3700億或3100億它在實際上的各憲法機關業務的執行上面扮演什麼樣的角色這恐怕是要精準的去一一盤點\n很抱歉我也只能夠按照您剛所提出的一般性的指標跟您做回覆也就是說財政是數證之母所以財政會不會構成到違憲的狀況我目前的基本立場是會不會去撼動\n這個法定包含憲法層次跟法律層次架空了他作為一個憲法機關職權行使的本質性如果這個底線沒有去碰到縱使他可能會有摯愛難行\n但是摯愛難行跟財政危機與違憲其實是還有距離的還有距離,好謝謝我們還是針對幾個指向的問題跟財政收支劃分法指向的問題跟被提名來做一個探討第一個,這個您覺得這個決定中央跟地方的財政分配比例的這件事情它是不是行政權的專屬權力還是其實立法權也可以基於反映民意的過程之中來進行修正跟討論\n依照我們目前的法制設計立法權在這裡是居於一個先導的地位也就是說它可以制定一個框架立法\n在這個框架範圍之下行政權可以在細部去做精準的細部分配對 因為它畢竟是一部法嘛 對不對所以立法權它當然有一定的角色嘛 謝謝那現在行政端主張財政運作困難您剛剛其實已經回答得差不多了啦就是說具體來講到底怎麼樣叫財政運作困難 對不對這個還是說它其實只是一個行政效率跟事權分配的問題您目前\n了解的狀況因為你認為還要經過精算跟分析所以你沒有辦法在這裡給我們答案嗎例如說在某份問卷裡面有提到某個這個\n監察院他對外宣稱96%的預算被刪除我不知道這個資訊對不對我今天談的是財政收支劃分法以目前來講重新劃分中央跟地方財政的分配我覺得錢跟權要做對等的設計\n我也知道委員現在正好在處理地方制度法的修正你也有做一下功課,謝謝我現在就討論這個事其實這就是權跟權事權的討論我們談到事權討論的這一部分請問事權的討論它應該是行政單位內部因為它是中央跟地方的分工的問題也許要參酌一些民意的要求所以立法院可能有角色你覺得司法院用大法官、市縣等等的角色來介入事權的分配是合理的嗎?\n呃陳儒剛剛跟委員報告如果這個是有碰到底線的疑慮所以碰到底線才要出手嘛對不對我舉一個例子好了因為我們大概有具體的例子譬如說今天如果把中央所有可以調度的資源通通一刀切通通劃到了地方政府\n對不對 讓你中央本來一進的政策是完全沒有辦法推行那這個本席也同意嘛 對不對這當然就出現了很嚴重的問題就是您在自傳裡面或者在回答的時候講到就是說中央行政權被架控的問題但今天如果只是改變分配的比例你中央還是有一定的數額可以做調度的時候請問有碰到紅線嗎如果按照委員的假設情況的話可能離違憲的距離還\n還比較大對不對這我就跟貝提敏我們也交換一下意見以現在3700億來講他當然影響了跟過去相比中央當然要多分一份錢的到地方但你要講因為這樣他所有預算都沒有辦法執行或者是行政權被架空這我想我講的應該不是假設啦\n當然沒關係這個後面有詳細的數據這我想以遭公信是沒有問題的所以我還蠻目前為止還蠻欣賞目前被提名人的回答這個您如果是成為大法官在本案如果你有機會參與審理因為這個已經被提到市縣裡面您比較傾向立法權依法擴大地方財政主張這樣的正當性還是比較傾向行政院應該有更大的控管財務的自由我自己從事地方自治多年的教學\n我自己向來的主張就是當我們在把自治權回歸或下放給地方自治團體的時候\n跟著錢其實也要下去的否則這就會讓有權無錢的窘境所以一個前提命題是假設我們的中央跟地方的權限劃分我們要盡可能的朝向優於地方的方向去位移的話我會認同錢要跟著下去好 謝謝\n那再來就是大家非常關心的題目當然就是有關於死刑的存廢您在自傳上面表示說我們要嚴正的面對每一個申請事件的案件要妥適的尋覓出能顧及我國憲政實踐環境又能夠契合人權指標的最佳衝突調和或者是解決方案您自己個人的立場您支持廢除死刑嗎以目前的現況來講廢死我個人不支持\n我的理由在於從憲法的角度來看死刑的潛理解是因為有一個故意的殺人罪的成立殺人罪的形成憲法的另外一個意味著有一條人命或者是數條人命的生命權被剝奪了所以死刑其實是一個權益調和後\n國家昭告民眾何謂正義的一種方案當然這個方案不是很古不變我們可以當\n人民可以慢慢接受可能有另外一種機制也足以彰顯正義的時候或許到那個時機我們可以嚴正的考慮事實不要再以剝奪生命的方式來調和基本權的衝突狀況所以換言之你認為基本上要談論這麼深水區的議題之前一定要兼顧司法公義性以及社會大眾對於司法公平性的期待對不對好 謝謝那目前\n我個人認為這個題目本來就應該經過深切的討論取得社會的最大公約數然後再來做思考但問題是這樣喔憲判第八號其實已經判下去了嘛他們針對死刑的要件雖然他宣告死刑是合憲的但他其實加諸了非常多從我們民意代表的角度來看非常不合理的\n各項邏輯包含各級審、各審級需要有一致判決的這樣子的一個制度創設而這樣子的一個標準其實並沒有出現在任何的憲法條文、法律條文甚至是當初申請人的主張之中請問被提名人憲法法庭有無權力自行去創設一套高於立法機關的量刑機制\n這個問題我在回覆黨團的問卷裡面我有提到雖然站在人民的立場或是未來執行大法官職務的立場大法官的判決有拘束力這個我完全認同但是如果委員您要問我個人的意見我對於這個各省級一致決的這樣的一個\n憲法法庭的創設意見我是有一些比較不一樣的想法其實在憲判八的解釋理由書裡面有特別以並於指出這樣的方式去談論國法案件在那裡其實沒有去挑戰國民法官法裡面的非一致決他只要求三位的職業法官要一致決\n那在判決的主文裡面其實也沒有彰顯這樣的職業法官一致決的話語他只說各省級一致決這個就是可怕的地方你們做出來因為是大法官法界的最高的榮譽其實你們未來如果做了大法官都掌握了非常非常大的話語權\n哪怕他不是刑於判決主文或什麼他其實都有很有可能會影響整個法界大家的這樣子的一個思考的方向然後從而去影響實務上的判決那麼實務上來講這憲判八字號這出來之後你當然就看到越來越多有這樣的一個狀況包含什麼非罪嚴重之罪行未符合一字決等等的他其實就造成了社會很大的恐慌我們真的非常希望因為\n如果我們要重新討論這樣的事情,大概只有透過重新釋憲的方式再來重新去改善這個有大法官造法疑慮的一個憲法判決這一部分我們希望如果您有幸可以成為大法官可以本於超然獨立跟您過去一貫的主張用一個比較能夠讓社會大眾接受維護司法公信力的方式來做思考這是本席給你的一個建議最後一點點時間我要問一個比較有趣的一個問題\n這個前一段時間其實立法院有討論過一個議題一個概念我們現在這麼多的憲政衝突其實來自於到底誰是多數誰是少數所以我們現在的總統是百分之四十的選票就可以當選因為是選舉是一個這個殺咖嘟這樣子的一個情況那國會卻是嘲笑野大那當然就出現了到底\n誰比較重要對不對就衍生了很多的憲政僵局曾經有人主張我們用修法的方式來引入比照法國總統二輪選舉那當然執政黨這邊就主張這個是一定違憲的那憲法正確條文第二條裡面他寫的說總統要一起登記並且以多數為當選可是這樣子的概念這樣的一個精神跟一輪投票跟二輪投票有絕對的關係嗎我想請教一下被提名人的看法\n我個人的認為基本上還是取決於我們的總統副總統選罷法裡面目前的法律明定是相對多數決也就是說相對多數決的一組勝出那這個在大院的立法權的情況之下其實是可以去思考有沒有可能對這個當選的門檻反於他的公信力跟民主正當性的強化\n再去做一個檢討換言之如果立法院經過了決議討論決議之後修法通過把它變成二輪投票制其實它並不會違背憲法的精神對不對因為不管是達到一個門檻或者是相對多數它其實都是多數我覺得憲法框架應該是一個相對大的一個範圍對憲法沒有設定到這麼細緻的投票門檻的規定所以如果真的立法院討論把它變成二輪投票它其實也是一個可以被思考的方案而且它不會違反憲法精神我可以這樣認定這是您的想法嗎\n從國民主權的角度來講,我認為並沒有顯然的違憲之餘好,謝謝,以上是我針對被提名人的質詢,感謝您清楚的回答,謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.641 --> 00:16.206\n謝謝主席我們詹貝提名人有請詹教授午安辛苦了\n\n00:18.663 --> 00:41.642\n今天針對大法官被提名人提一些問題想跟您就教、跟您探討首先是有關於司法改革的部分根據TPPS今年5月15號公布的賴總統就任週年的民調司法改革是所有政策裡面滿意度最低的一項只有30%的人認為是滿意的而有高達58%的民眾他其實是非常不滿意的\n\n00:42.262 --> 00:50.670\n那麼美麗島電子報在今年4月28號的民調大概有59.3%的人認為在司法的部分政府出現選擇性辦案的狀況57.9%的人認為政治力介入檢調機關辦案57.6%\n\n00:58.243 --> 01:26.339\n認為政治介入司法案件差不多都有六成左右的民意對於現在台灣司法各項的表現是持非常高度質疑的一個狀況那麼司法改革的成效您覺得推動到現在您覺得表現如何司法改革是不是應該要重視我們整體社會對於司法的信任程度換言之司法公信力要如何來確保您目前針對司法改革的表現您是滿意的嗎謝謝委員的提問\n\n01:30.458 --> 01:55.575\n司法改革的議題其實幾十年來一直是一個問題那前面幾位被提名人其實也有去回應他的成因何在那如果委員您是問我個人的一個看法的話當然司法改革不得不去考慮到民眾對司法的信賴\n\n01:56.996 --> 02:17.038\n畢竟它是一個跟人民息息相關的事情人民對於國王的徵抄有所懷疑後面的公權力的行使其實都會受到撼動沒錯所以我認同委員這樣的一個看法司法改革當然要參著民眾的可信賴性\n\n02:17.827 --> 02:45.334\n好,你又要掺著民眾的可信賴性,那我們就針對這個民眾認為政治力介入司法這樣的一個狀況,我們來稍微進行一下深入的一個討論因為您那幾個自傳裡面我大概也拜讀了,你寫說獨立審判其實是不可退讓的嘛,這個其實是法律人的非常重要的一個原則嘛如果不管是各級法官上到憲法法庭、下到各級法院,如果出現了獨立審判被質疑、被破壞的一個狀況,那其實就會出現這個司法公信力不足的狀況,那也連帶的會造成非常多的災難\n\n02:46.494 --> 03:15.370\n那您認為現在的司法有獨立而且不受政治力影響嗎您會不會覺得您可不可以保證擔任大法官之後自己或同僚不會受到政治力的影響我可以保證我自己不會受到政治力的影響那我沒有辦法幫其他的人來做擔保這個是我很誠懇的跟委員回覆至少我自己可控的部分我可以在這裡做一個保證其實這個就是大概是\n\n03:16.235 --> 03:37.860\n最抽象但是也最難回答的題目啊因為我就舉一個例子好了比如說上一次我們在進行這個司法官大法官的這個人事同意權的審查跟投票的時候到最後這個我們劉靜儀被提名人他到最後其實是被民進黨也一起封殺因為按照最後的票數的結果來看因為民眾黨是支持的如果當初執政黨願意支持執政黨自己提出來的大法官的人選他其實是有辦法過關的\n\n03:38.800 --> 04:06.457\n但後來我們這個執政黨黨團的總召柯建民講說封殺的理由是因為他多次辱罵民進黨所以如果支持他我們就要開除黨籍這樣算不算是一種政治力的介入您怎麼看待這樣的事情大法官適格性的審查我個人的解讀應該是專業知識操守風骨跟獨立性\n\n04:07.819 --> 04:24.674\n除此以外當然站在大院的立場必須也要為選民而來把關但是應該還是環繞在那幾個因素我覺得才是一個審查的核心標準好\n\n04:26.504 --> 04:48.707\n謝謝因為我們之所以會這樣問因為這個我想也不是針對您個人而是所有被提名的大法官審查的時候普遍上社會都會很擔心尤其是現在的政治局勢是比較紛亂的在這樣的一個情況之下社會上都會擔心我們會不會到最後立法院通過最後都是會配合政治期待的大法官而不是獨立自主的大法官這樣子的一個社會的要求跟影響\n\n04:49.948 --> 05:16.710\n總是有一些質疑我們今天既然代表民意我們就把這個東西如實來做反應那請問您要如何在司法信任度很低的這樣一個環境之下建立您個人的未來有沒有機會做大法官您如果確保自己的公正性您能不能提個具體的例子或怎麼樣來做一下說明好謝謝委員那我有補充說明的機會我不論是在口頭報告或者是回覆各黨團的問卷裡面我都提到這樣的一個觀點\n\n05:20.781 --> 05:39.919\n維持審判獨立它是一個主觀上的確信如何讓外界的人民能夠知道這個主觀上的確信確實是客觀可信的我擔任學術研究工作者擔任學校的老師超過20年的資歷\n\n05:42.984 --> 06:10.757\n我的著作應該也不算少其實這個就是一個可檢驗的客觀標準可以看我是不是有見解的擺盪是不是在論述當中提出具體有效的說法跟邏輯對不對有傾向於特定的政治立場所以換言之你可以保證在您過去教學的歷程中或曾經出版的著作中所行述的這些原則跟標準會被帶到如果你有性就任大法官的話他會成為這樣一個準則我可以這樣解釋嗎\n\n06:13.133 --> 06:15.446\n是的我目前也是这样的一个看法\n\n06:15.882 --> 06:44.352\n好謝謝那我們接下來針對幾個因為現在這個憲法法庭好像這個越來越來越吃重了非常多的因為憲政爭議等等或者是其實他單純只是行政立法之間的一個僵局然後好像動不動都要上綱到憲法法庭來做討論那既然立法院是民意的機關那這些相關的一些法案我們也希望可以了解一下被提名人的看法首先我想請教一下這個被提名人針對財政收支劃分法的看法因為這我有特別做了一點點功課\n\n06:45.592 --> 07:01.215\n政治大學的講堂上面,其實你有把這個當成一個案例,來跟學生來做研討跟說明其實這個簡單來說,在野黨大家都認為說我們增加了分配給地方政府的這樣一個裁員,有助於改善城鄉差距也好\n\n07:01.736 --> 07:15.861\n或者是加強地方自治地方政府施政的效率等等這些好處就不再贅述那麼執政黨當然認為這個影響了中央施政的節奏跟計畫那最後他們採用的方法是用釋憲的方式他們認為這個違反了憲法第147條\n\n07:19.242 --> 07:32.154\n憲法第147條講說中央為謀省與省之間的經濟平衡發展對於評級是省那當然是用省這個字當然是因為它過去的時代脈絡但簡單來講其實就是對於地方政府應該要著於補助為了謀求縣與縣之間的經濟平衡發展應該著於補助它是一個原則性的規範\n\n07:37.557 --> 08:01.445\n詹教授您曾經在政治大學上課裡面就有談關鍵爭議其實是說立法權的修法會不會導致行政權因為財政的因素無法履行憲法義務嘛對不對只有碰到這條紅線的時候他可能會上綱到變成用憲法法庭來解決的這樣一個狀況如果沒有碰到這條紅線對不對他理論上應該是事權之間的調和跟配套措施我這樣解釋這樣提問應該沒有問題對不對好那您覺得目前的狀況3700億要申請釋憲合理嗎\n\n08:08.100 --> 08:27.414\n還是跟委員報告其一就是這個案子已經細數在憲法法庭其二3700億或3100億它在實際上的各憲法機關業務的執行上面扮演什麼樣的角色這恐怕是要精準的去一一盤點\n\n08:29.295 --> 08:45.846\n很抱歉我也只能夠按照您剛所提出的一般性的指標跟您做回覆也就是說財政是數證之母所以財政會不會構成到違憲的狀況我目前的基本立場是會不會去撼動\n\n08:47.447 --> 09:03.265\n這個法定包含憲法層次跟法律層次架空了他作為一個憲法機關職權行使的本質性如果這個底線沒有去碰到縱使他可能會有摯愛難行\n\n09:05.273 --> 09:32.955\n但是摯愛難行跟財政危機與違憲其實是還有距離的還有距離,好謝謝我們還是針對幾個指向的問題跟財政收支劃分法指向的問題跟被提名來做一個探討第一個,這個您覺得這個決定中央跟地方的財政分配比例的這件事情它是不是行政權的專屬權力還是其實立法權也可以基於反映民意的過程之中來進行修正跟討論\n\n09:34.338 --> 09:45.574\n依照我們目前的法制設計立法權在這裡是居於一個先導的地位也就是說它可以制定一個框架立法\n\n09:46.294 --> 10:11.865\n在這個框架範圍之下行政權可以在細部去做精準的細部分配對因為它畢竟是一部法嘛對不對所以立法權它當然有一定的角色嘛謝謝那現在行政端主張財政運作困難您剛剛其實已經回答得差不多了啦就是說具體來講到底怎麼樣叫財政運作困難對不對這個還是說它其實只是一個行政效率跟事權分配的問題您目前\n\n10:13.103 --> 10:25.650\n了解的狀況因為你認為還要經過精算跟分析所以你沒有辦法在這裡給我們答案嗎例如說在某份問卷裡面有提到某個這個\n\n10:28.976 --> 10:54.174\n監察院他對外宣稱96%的預算被刪除我不知道這個資訊對不對我今天談的是財政收支劃分法以目前來講重新劃分中央跟地方財政的分配我覺得錢跟權要做對等的設計\n\n10:56.721 --> 11:25.988\n我也知道委員現在正好在處理地方制度法的修正你也有做一下功課,謝謝我現在就討論這個事其實這就是權跟權事權的討論我們談到事權討論的這一部分請問事權的討論它應該是行政單位內部因為它是中央跟地方的分工的問題也許要參酌一些民意的要求所以立法院可能有角色你覺得司法院用大法官、市縣等等的角色來介入事權的分配是合理的嗎?\n\n11:27.748 --> 11:42.549\n呃陳儒剛剛跟委員報告如果這個是有碰到底線的疑慮所以碰到底線才要出手嘛對不對我舉一個例子好了因為我們大概有具體的例子譬如說今天如果把中央所有可以調度的資源通通一刀切通通劃到了地方政府\n\n11:43.470 --> 12:06.607\n對不對讓你中央本來一進的政策是完全沒有辦法推行那這個本席也同意嘛對不對這當然就出現了很嚴重的問題就是您在自傳裡面或者在回答的時候講到就是說中央行政權被架控的問題但今天如果只是改變分配的比例你中央還是有一定的數額可以做調度的時候請問有碰到紅線嗎如果按照委員的假設情況的話可能離違憲的距離還\n\n12:09.091 --> 12:25.011\n還比較大對不對這我就跟貝提敏我們也交換一下意見以現在3700億來講他當然影響了跟過去相比中央當然要多分一份錢的到地方但你要講因為這樣他所有預算都沒有辦法執行或者是行政權被架空這我想我講的應該不是假設啦\n\n12:25.672 --> 12:54.575\n當然沒關係這個後面有詳細的數據這我想以遭公信是沒有問題的所以我還蠻目前為止還蠻欣賞目前被提名人的回答這個您如果是成為大法官在本案如果你有機會參與審理因為這個已經被提到市縣裡面您比較傾向立法權依法擴大地方財政主張這樣的正當性還是比較傾向行政院應該有更大的控管財務的自由我自己從事地方自治多年的教學\n\n12:55.902 --> 13:04.861\n我自己向來的主張就是當我們在把自治權回歸或下放給地方自治團體的時候\n\n13:06.874 --> 13:33.909\n跟著錢其實也要下去的否則這就會讓有權無錢的窘境所以一個前提命題是假設我們的中央跟地方的權限劃分我們要盡可能的朝向優於地方的方向去位移的話我會認同錢要跟著下去好謝謝\n\n13:35.598 --> 14:03.648\n那再來就是大家非常關心的題目當然就是有關於死刑的存廢您在自傳上面表示說我們要嚴正的面對每一個申請事件的案件要妥適的尋覓出能顧及我國憲政實踐環境又能夠契合人權指標的最佳衝突調和或者是解決方案您自己個人的立場您支持廢除死刑嗎以目前的現況來講廢死我個人不支持\n\n14:04.738 --> 14:34.159\n我的理由在於從憲法的角度來看死刑的潛理解是因為有一個故意的殺人罪的成立殺人罪的形成憲法的另外一個意味著有一條人命或者是數條人命的生命權被剝奪了所以死刑其實是一個權益調和後\n\n14:35.761 --> 14:46.036\n國家昭告民眾何謂正義的一種方案當然這個方案不是很古不變我們可以當\n\n14:47.202 --> 15:14.665\n人民可以慢慢接受可能有另外一種機制也足以彰顯正義的時候或許到那個時機我們可以嚴正的考慮事實不要再以剝奪生命的方式來調和基本權的衝突狀況所以換言之你認為基本上要談論這麼深水區的議題之前一定要兼顧司法公義性以及社會大眾對於司法公平性的期待對不對好謝謝那目前\n\n15:15.888 --> 15:35.986\n我個人認為這個題目本來就應該經過深切的討論取得社會的最大公約數然後再來做思考但問題是這樣喔憲判第八號其實已經判下去了嘛他們針對死刑的要件雖然他宣告死刑是合憲的但他其實加諸了非常多從我們民意代表的角度來看非常不合理的\n\n15:36.266 --> 15:56.992\n各項邏輯包含各級審、各審級需要有一致判決的這樣子的一個制度創設而這樣子的一個標準其實並沒有出現在任何的憲法條文、法律條文甚至是當初申請人的主張之中請問被提名人憲法法庭有無權力自行去創設一套高於立法機關的量刑機制\n\n16:01.033 --> 16:25.978\n這個問題我在回覆黨團的問卷裡面我有提到雖然站在人民的立場或是未來執行大法官職務的立場大法官的判決有拘束力這個我完全認同但是如果委員您要問我個人的意見我對於這個各省級一致決的這樣的一個\n\n16:27.834 --> 16:55.781\n憲法法庭的創設意見我是有一些比較不一樣的想法其實在憲判八的解釋理由書裡面有特別以並於指出這樣的方式去談論國法案件在那裡其實沒有去挑戰國民法官法裡面的非一致決他只要求三位的職業法官要一致決\n\n16:57.523 --> 17:19.855\n那在判決的主文裡面其實也沒有彰顯這樣的職業法官一致決的話語他只說各省級一致決這個就是可怕的地方你們做出來因為是大法官法界的最高的榮譽其實你們未來如果做了大法官都掌握了非常非常大的話語權\n\n17:20.782 --> 17:43.591\n哪怕他不是刑於判決主文或什麼他其實都有很有可能會影響整個法界大家的這樣子的一個思考的方向然後從而去影響實務上的判決那麼實務上來講這憲判八字號這出來之後你當然就看到越來越多有這樣的一個狀況包含什麼非罪嚴重之罪行未符合一字決等等的他其實就造成了社會很大的恐慌我們真的非常希望因為\n\n17:44.071 --> 18:10.347\n如果我們要重新討論這樣的事情,大概只有透過重新釋憲的方式再來重新去改善這個有大法官造法疑慮的一個憲法判決這一部分我們希望如果您有幸可以成為大法官可以本於超然獨立跟您過去一貫的主張用一個比較能夠讓社會大眾接受維護司法公信力的方式來做思考這是本席給你的一個建議最後一點點時間我要問一個比較有趣的一個問題\n\n18:11.988 --> 18:28.929\n這個前一段時間其實立法院有討論過一個議題一個概念我們現在這麼多的憲政衝突其實來自於到底誰是多數誰是少數所以我們現在的總統是百分之四十的選票就可以當選因為是選舉是一個這個殺咖嘟這樣子的一個情況那國會卻是嘲笑野大那當然就出現了到底\n\n18:29.669 --> 18:55.116\n誰比較重要對不對就衍生了很多的憲政僵局曾經有人主張我們用修法的方式來引入比照法國總統二輪選舉那當然執政黨這邊就主張這個是一定違憲的那憲法正確條文第二條裡面他寫的說總統要一起登記並且以多數為當選可是這樣子的概念這樣的一個精神跟一輪投票跟二輪投票有絕對的關係嗎我想請教一下被提名人的看法\n\n18:56.369 --> 19:25.240\n我個人的認為基本上還是取決於我們的總統副總統選罷法裡面目前的法律明定是相對多數決也就是說相對多數決的一組勝出那這個在大院的立法權的情況之下其實是可以去思考有沒有可能對這個當選的門檻反於他的公信力跟民主正當性的強化\n\n19:25.980 --> 19:54.515\n再去做一個檢討換言之如果立法院經過了決議討論決議之後修法通過把它變成二輪投票制其實它並不會違背憲法的精神對不對因為不管是達到一個門檻或者是相對多數它其實都是多數我覺得憲法框架應該是一個相對大的一個範圍對憲法沒有設定到這麼細緻的投票門檻的規定所以如果真的立法院討論把它變成二輪投票它其實也是一個可以被思考的方案而且它不會違反憲法精神我可以這樣認定這是您的想法嗎\n\n19:55.454 --> 20:05.037\n從國民主權的角度來講,我認為並沒有顯然的違憲之餘好,謝謝,以上是我針對被提名人的質詢,感謝您清楚的回答,謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.641,"end":16.206,"text":"謝謝主席我們詹貝提名人有請詹教授午安辛苦了"},{"start":18.663,"end":41.642,"text":"今天針對大法官被提名人提一些問題想跟您就教、跟您探討首先是有關於司法改革的部分根據TPPS今年5月15號公布的賴總統就任週年的民調司法改革是所有政策裡面滿意度最低的一項只有30%的人認為是滿意的而有高達58%的民眾他其實是非常不滿意的"},{"start":42.262,"end":50.67,"text":"那麼美麗島電子報在今年4月28號的民調大概有59.3%的人認為在司法的部分政府出現選擇性辦案的狀況57.9%的人認為政治力介入檢調機關辦案57.6%"},{"start":58.243,"end":86.339,"text":"認為政治介入司法案件差不多都有六成左右的民意對於現在台灣司法各項的表現是持非常高度質疑的一個狀況那麼司法改革的成效您覺得推動到現在您覺得表現如何司法改革是不是應該要重視我們整體社會對於司法的信任程度換言之司法公信力要如何來確保您目前針對司法改革的表現您是滿意的嗎謝謝委員的提問"},{"start":90.458,"end":115.575,"text":"司法改革的議題其實幾十年來一直是一個問題那前面幾位被提名人其實也有去回應他的成因何在那如果委員您是問我個人的一個看法的話當然司法改革不得不去考慮到民眾對司法的信賴"},{"start":116.996,"end":137.038,"text":"畢竟它是一個跟人民息息相關的事情人民對於國王的徵抄有所懷疑後面的公權力的行使其實都會受到撼動沒錯所以我認同委員這樣的一個看法司法改革當然要參著民眾的可信賴性"},{"start":137.827,"end":165.334,"text":"好,你又要掺著民眾的可信賴性,那我們就針對這個民眾認為政治力介入司法這樣的一個狀況,我們來稍微進行一下深入的一個討論因為您那幾個自傳裡面我大概也拜讀了,你寫說獨立審判其實是不可退讓的嘛,這個其實是法律人的非常重要的一個原則嘛如果不管是各級法官上到憲法法庭、下到各級法院,如果出現了獨立審判被質疑、被破壞的一個狀況,那其實就會出現這個司法公信力不足的狀況,那也連帶的會造成非常多的災難"},{"start":166.494,"end":195.37,"text":"那您認為現在的司法有獨立而且不受政治力影響嗎您會不會覺得您可不可以保證擔任大法官之後自己或同僚不會受到政治力的影響我可以保證我自己不會受到政治力的影響那我沒有辦法幫其他的人來做擔保這個是我很誠懇的跟委員回覆至少我自己可控的部分我可以在這裡做一個保證其實這個就是大概是"},{"start":196.235,"end":217.86,"text":"最抽象但是也最難回答的題目啊因為我就舉一個例子好了比如說上一次我們在進行這個司法官大法官的這個人事同意權的審查跟投票的時候到最後這個我們劉靜儀被提名人他到最後其實是被民進黨也一起封殺因為按照最後的票數的結果來看因為民眾黨是支持的如果當初執政黨願意支持執政黨自己提出來的大法官的人選他其實是有辦法過關的"},{"start":218.8,"end":246.457,"text":"但後來我們這個執政黨黨團的總召柯建民講說封殺的理由是因為他多次辱罵民進黨所以如果支持他我們就要開除黨籍這樣算不算是一種政治力的介入您怎麼看待這樣的事情大法官適格性的審查我個人的解讀應該是專業知識操守風骨跟獨立性"},{"start":247.819,"end":264.674,"text":"除此以外當然站在大院的立場必須也要為選民而來把關但是應該還是環繞在那幾個因素我覺得才是一個審查的核心標準好"},{"start":266.504,"end":288.707,"text":"謝謝因為我們之所以會這樣問因為這個我想也不是針對您個人而是所有被提名的大法官審查的時候普遍上社會都會很擔心尤其是現在的政治局勢是比較紛亂的在這樣的一個情況之下社會上都會擔心我們會不會到最後立法院通過最後都是會配合政治期待的大法官而不是獨立自主的大法官這樣子的一個社會的要求跟影響"},{"start":289.948,"end":316.71,"text":"總是有一些質疑我們今天既然代表民意我們就把這個東西如實來做反應那請問您要如何在司法信任度很低的這樣一個環境之下建立您個人的未來有沒有機會做大法官您如果確保自己的公正性您能不能提個具體的例子或怎麼樣來做一下說明好 謝謝委員那我有補充說明的機會我不論是在口頭報告或者是回覆各黨團的問卷裡面我都提到這樣的一個觀點"},{"start":320.781,"end":339.919,"text":"維持審判獨立它是一個主觀上的確信如何讓外界的人民能夠知道這個主觀上的確信確實是客觀可信的我擔任學術研究工作者擔任學校的老師超過20年的資歷"},{"start":342.984,"end":370.757,"text":"我的著作應該也不算少其實這個就是一個可檢驗的客觀標準可以看我是不是有見解的擺盪是不是在論述當中提出具體有效的說法跟邏輯對不對有傾向於特定的政治立場所以換言之你可以保證在您過去教學的歷程中或曾經出版的著作中所行述的這些原則跟標準會被帶到如果你有性就任大法官的話他會成為這樣一個準則我可以這樣解釋嗎"},{"start":373.133,"end":375.446,"text":"是的 我目前也是这样的一个看法"},{"start":375.882,"end":404.352,"text":"好 謝謝那我們接下來針對幾個因為現在這個憲法法庭好像這個越來越來越吃重了非常多的因為憲政爭議等等或者是其實他單純只是行政立法之間的一個僵局然後好像動不動都要上綱到憲法法庭來做討論那既然立法院是民意的機關那這些相關的一些法案我們也希望可以了解一下被提名人的看法首先我想請教一下這個被提名人針對財政收支劃分法的看法因為這我有特別做了一點點功課"},{"start":405.592,"end":421.215,"text":"政治大學的講堂上面,其實你有把這個當成一個案例,來跟學生來做研討跟說明其實這個簡單來說,在野黨大家都認為說我們增加了分配給地方政府的這樣一個裁員,有助於改善城鄉差距也好"},{"start":421.736,"end":435.861,"text":"或者是加強地方自治地方政府施政的效率等等這些好處就不再贅述那麼執政黨當然認為這個影響了中央施政的節奏跟計畫那最後他們採用的方法是用釋憲的方式他們認為這個違反了憲法第147條"},{"start":439.242,"end":452.154,"text":"憲法第147條講說中央為謀省與省之間的經濟平衡發展對於評級是省那當然是用省這個字當然是因為它過去的時代脈絡但簡單來講其實就是對於地方政府應該要著於補助為了謀求縣與縣之間的經濟平衡發展應該著於補助它是一個原則性的規範"},{"start":457.557,"end":481.445,"text":"詹教授您曾經在政治大學上課裡面就有談關鍵爭議其實是說立法權的修法會不會導致行政權因為財政的因素無法履行憲法義務嘛對不對只有碰到這條紅線的時候他可能會上綱到變成用憲法法庭來解決的這樣一個狀況如果沒有碰到這條紅線對不對他理論上應該是事權之間的調和跟配套措施我這樣解釋這樣提問應該沒有問題對不對好那您覺得目前的狀況3700億要申請釋憲合理嗎"},{"start":488.1,"end":507.414,"text":"還是跟委員報告 其一就是這個案子已經細數在憲法法庭其二3700億或3100億它在實際上的各憲法機關業務的執行上面扮演什麼樣的角色這恐怕是要精準的去一一盤點"},{"start":509.295,"end":525.846,"text":"很抱歉我也只能夠按照您剛所提出的一般性的指標跟您做回覆也就是說財政是數證之母所以財政會不會構成到違憲的狀況我目前的基本立場是會不會去撼動"},{"start":527.447,"end":543.265,"text":"這個法定包含憲法層次跟法律層次架空了他作為一個憲法機關職權行使的本質性如果這個底線沒有去碰到縱使他可能會有摯愛難行"},{"start":545.273,"end":572.955,"text":"但是摯愛難行跟財政危機與違憲其實是還有距離的還有距離,好謝謝我們還是針對幾個指向的問題跟財政收支劃分法指向的問題跟被提名來做一個探討第一個,這個您覺得這個決定中央跟地方的財政分配比例的這件事情它是不是行政權的專屬權力還是其實立法權也可以基於反映民意的過程之中來進行修正跟討論"},{"start":574.338,"end":585.574,"text":"依照我們目前的法制設計立法權在這裡是居於一個先導的地位也就是說它可以制定一個框架立法"},{"start":586.294,"end":611.865,"text":"在這個框架範圍之下行政權可以在細部去做精準的細部分配對 因為它畢竟是一部法嘛 對不對所以立法權它當然有一定的角色嘛 謝謝那現在行政端主張財政運作困難您剛剛其實已經回答得差不多了啦就是說具體來講到底怎麼樣叫財政運作困難 對不對這個還是說它其實只是一個行政效率跟事權分配的問題您目前"},{"start":613.103,"end":625.65,"text":"了解的狀況因為你認為還要經過精算跟分析所以你沒有辦法在這裡給我們答案嗎例如說在某份問卷裡面有提到某個這個"},{"start":628.976,"end":654.174,"text":"監察院他對外宣稱96%的預算被刪除我不知道這個資訊對不對我今天談的是財政收支劃分法以目前來講重新劃分中央跟地方財政的分配我覺得錢跟權要做對等的設計"},{"start":656.721,"end":685.988,"text":"我也知道委員現在正好在處理地方制度法的修正你也有做一下功課,謝謝我現在就討論這個事其實這就是權跟權事權的討論我們談到事權討論的這一部分請問事權的討論它應該是行政單位內部因為它是中央跟地方的分工的問題也許要參酌一些民意的要求所以立法院可能有角色你覺得司法院用大法官、市縣等等的角色來介入事權的分配是合理的嗎?"},{"start":687.748,"end":702.549,"text":"呃陳儒剛剛跟委員報告如果這個是有碰到底線的疑慮所以碰到底線才要出手嘛對不對我舉一個例子好了因為我們大概有具體的例子譬如說今天如果把中央所有可以調度的資源通通一刀切通通劃到了地方政府"},{"start":703.47,"end":726.607,"text":"對不對 讓你中央本來一進的政策是完全沒有辦法推行那這個本席也同意嘛 對不對這當然就出現了很嚴重的問題就是您在自傳裡面或者在回答的時候講到就是說中央行政權被架控的問題但今天如果只是改變分配的比例你中央還是有一定的數額可以做調度的時候請問有碰到紅線嗎如果按照委員的假設情況的話可能離違憲的距離還"},{"start":729.091,"end":745.011,"text":"還比較大對不對這我就跟貝提敏我們也交換一下意見以現在3700億來講他當然影響了跟過去相比中央當然要多分一份錢的到地方但你要講因為這樣他所有預算都沒有辦法執行或者是行政權被架空這我想我講的應該不是假設啦"},{"start":745.672,"end":774.575,"text":"當然沒關係這個後面有詳細的數據這我想以遭公信是沒有問題的所以我還蠻目前為止還蠻欣賞目前被提名人的回答這個您如果是成為大法官在本案如果你有機會參與審理因為這個已經被提到市縣裡面您比較傾向立法權依法擴大地方財政主張這樣的正當性還是比較傾向行政院應該有更大的控管財務的自由我自己從事地方自治多年的教學"},{"start":775.902,"end":784.861,"text":"我自己向來的主張就是當我們在把自治權回歸或下放給地方自治團體的時候"},{"start":786.874,"end":813.909,"text":"跟著錢其實也要下去的否則這就會讓有權無錢的窘境所以一個前提命題是假設我們的中央跟地方的權限劃分我們要盡可能的朝向優於地方的方向去位移的話我會認同錢要跟著下去好 謝謝"},{"start":815.598,"end":843.648,"text":"那再來就是大家非常關心的題目當然就是有關於死刑的存廢您在自傳上面表示說我們要嚴正的面對每一個申請事件的案件要妥適的尋覓出能顧及我國憲政實踐環境又能夠契合人權指標的最佳衝突調和或者是解決方案您自己個人的立場您支持廢除死刑嗎以目前的現況來講廢死我個人不支持"},{"start":844.738,"end":874.159,"text":"我的理由在於從憲法的角度來看死刑的潛理解是因為有一個故意的殺人罪的成立殺人罪的形成憲法的另外一個意味著有一條人命或者是數條人命的生命權被剝奪了所以死刑其實是一個權益調和後"},{"start":875.761,"end":886.036,"text":"國家昭告民眾何謂正義的一種方案當然這個方案不是很古不變我們可以當"},{"start":887.202,"end":914.665,"text":"人民可以慢慢接受可能有另外一種機制也足以彰顯正義的時候或許到那個時機我們可以嚴正的考慮事實不要再以剝奪生命的方式來調和基本權的衝突狀況所以換言之你認為基本上要談論這麼深水區的議題之前一定要兼顧司法公義性以及社會大眾對於司法公平性的期待對不對好 謝謝那目前"},{"start":915.888,"end":935.986,"text":"我個人認為這個題目本來就應該經過深切的討論取得社會的最大公約數然後再來做思考但問題是這樣喔憲判第八號其實已經判下去了嘛他們針對死刑的要件雖然他宣告死刑是合憲的但他其實加諸了非常多從我們民意代表的角度來看非常不合理的"},{"start":936.266,"end":956.992,"text":"各項邏輯包含各級審、各審級需要有一致判決的這樣子的一個制度創設而這樣子的一個標準其實並沒有出現在任何的憲法條文、法律條文甚至是當初申請人的主張之中請問被提名人憲法法庭有無權力自行去創設一套高於立法機關的量刑機制"},{"start":961.033,"end":985.978,"text":"這個問題我在回覆黨團的問卷裡面我有提到雖然站在人民的立場或是未來執行大法官職務的立場大法官的判決有拘束力這個我完全認同但是如果委員您要問我個人的意見我對於這個各省級一致決的這樣的一個"},{"start":987.834,"end":1015.781,"text":"憲法法庭的創設意見我是有一些比較不一樣的想法其實在憲判八的解釋理由書裡面有特別以並於指出這樣的方式去談論國法案件在那裡其實沒有去挑戰國民法官法裡面的非一致決他只要求三位的職業法官要一致決"},{"start":1017.523,"end":1039.855,"text":"那在判決的主文裡面其實也沒有彰顯這樣的職業法官一致決的話語他只說各省級一致決這個就是可怕的地方你們做出來因為是大法官法界的最高的榮譽其實你們未來如果做了大法官都掌握了非常非常大的話語權"},{"start":1040.782,"end":1063.591,"text":"哪怕他不是刑於判決主文或什麼他其實都有很有可能會影響整個法界大家的這樣子的一個思考的方向然後從而去影響實務上的判決那麼實務上來講這憲判八字號這出來之後你當然就看到越來越多有這樣的一個狀況包含什麼非罪嚴重之罪行未符合一字決等等的他其實就造成了社會很大的恐慌我們真的非常希望因為"},{"start":1064.071,"end":1090.347,"text":"如果我們要重新討論這樣的事情,大概只有透過重新釋憲的方式再來重新去改善這個有大法官造法疑慮的一個憲法判決這一部分我們希望如果您有幸可以成為大法官可以本於超然獨立跟您過去一貫的主張用一個比較能夠讓社會大眾接受維護司法公信力的方式來做思考這是本席給你的一個建議最後一點點時間我要問一個比較有趣的一個問題"},{"start":1091.988,"end":1108.929,"text":"這個前一段時間其實立法院有討論過一個議題一個概念我們現在這麼多的憲政衝突其實來自於到底誰是多數誰是少數所以我們現在的總統是百分之四十的選票就可以當選因為是選舉是一個這個殺咖嘟這樣子的一個情況那國會卻是嘲笑野大那當然就出現了到底"},{"start":1109.669,"end":1135.116,"text":"誰比較重要對不對就衍生了很多的憲政僵局曾經有人主張我們用修法的方式來引入比照法國總統二輪選舉那當然執政黨這邊就主張這個是一定違憲的那憲法正確條文第二條裡面他寫的說總統要一起登記並且以多數為當選可是這樣子的概念這樣的一個精神跟一輪投票跟二輪投票有絕對的關係嗎我想請教一下被提名人的看法"},{"start":1136.369,"end":1165.24,"text":"我個人的認為基本上還是取決於我們的總統副總統選罷法裡面目前的法律明定是相對多數決也就是說相對多數決的一組勝出那這個在大院的立法權的情況之下其實是可以去思考有沒有可能對這個當選的門檻反於他的公信力跟民主正當性的強化"},{"start":1165.98,"end":1194.515,"text":"再去做一個檢討換言之如果立法院經過了決議討論決議之後修法通過把它變成二輪投票制其實它並不會違背憲法的精神對不對因為不管是達到一個門檻或者是相對多數它其實都是多數我覺得憲法框架應該是一個相對大的一個範圍對憲法沒有設定到這麼細緻的投票門檻的規定所以如果真的立法院討論把它變成二輪投票它其實也是一個可以被思考的方案而且它不會違反憲法精神我可以這樣認定這是您的想法嗎"},{"start":1195.454,"end":1205.037,"text":"從國民主權的角度來講,我認為並沒有顯然的違憲之餘好,謝謝,以上是我針對被提名人的質詢,感謝您清楚的回答,謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":255,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（15時57分）謝謝主席，詹被提名人有請。"],["主席：請被提名人。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：詹教授午安，辛苦了。今天針對大法官被提名人提一些問題，想跟您就教、跟您探討。首先是有關於司法改革的部分，根據TVBS今年5月15號公布賴總統就任周年的民調，司法改革是所有政策裡面滿意度最低的一項，只有30%的人認為是滿意的，而有高達58%的民眾其實是非常不滿意的。美麗島電子報在今年4月28號的民調，大概有59.3%的人認為，在司法的部分政府出現選擇性辦案的狀況，57.9%的人認為政治力介入檢調機關辦案，57.6%認為政治介入司法案件，差不多都有六成左右的民意對於現在臺灣司法的各項表現持非常高度質疑的狀況。司法改革的成效，您覺得推動到現在表現得如何？司法改革是不是應該要重視我們整體社會對於司法的信任程度？換言之，司法的公信力要如何確保？目前針對司法改革的表現，您是滿意的嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：謝謝委員的提問，司法改革的議題，其實幾十年來一直……"],["牛委員煦庭：很大。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：對，一直是一個問題。前面幾位被提名人其實也有回應它的成因何在，如果委員是問我個人的看法的話，當然司法改革不得不去考慮到民眾對司法的信賴，畢竟它是一個跟人民息息相關的事情，人民對於國王的貞操有所懷疑，後面的公權力行使其實都會受到撼動。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：所以我認同委員這樣的一個看法，司法改革當然要參酌民眾的可信賴性。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，你認為要參酌民眾的可信賴性，那我們就針對民眾認為政治力介入司法這樣的一個狀況，稍微進行一下深入的討論。因為你在你的自傳裡面，我大概也拜讀了，你寫獨立審判其實不可退讓，這個其實是法律人非常重要的一個原則，不管是各級法官，上到憲法法庭，下到各級法院，如果出現了獨立審判被質疑、被破壞的狀況，其實就會出現司法公信力不足的狀況，那也連帶會造成非常多的災難。您認為現在的司法有獨立而且不受政治力影響嗎？您可不可以保證擔任大法官之後，自己或同僚不會受到政治力的影響？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：我可以保證我自己不會受到政治力的影響，我沒有辦法幫其他的人來擔保，這個是我很誠懇地跟委員回復，至少我自己可控的部分，我可以在這裡保證。"],["牛委員煦庭：其實這個大概就是最抽象但是也最難回答的題目，我舉一個例子好了，比如說，上一次我們在進行大法官人事同意權的審查跟投票的時候，劉靜怡被提名人到最後其實是被民進黨也一起封殺，按照最後的票數結果來看，因為民眾黨是支持的，如果當初執政黨願意支持執政黨自己提出來的大法官人選，他其實是有辦法過關的，但後來執政黨黨團總召柯建銘說封殺的理由是因為他多次辱罵民進黨，如果支持他就要開除黨籍，這樣算不算是一種政治力的介入？您怎麼看待這樣的事情？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：大法官適格性的審查，我個人的解讀應該是專業知識、操守、風骨跟獨立性，除此以外，當然站在大院的立場，必須也要為選民來把關。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：但是應該還是環繞在那幾個因素，我覺得才是一個審查的核心標準。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。我之所以會這樣問，也不是針對您個人，而是所有被提名的大法官在審查的時候，普遍上社會都會很擔心，尤其是現在的政治局勢是比較紛亂的，在這樣的情況之下，社會上都會擔心會不會到最後立法院通過的都是會配合政治期待的大法官，而不是獨立自主的大法官？這樣子的社會要求跟影響，總是有一些質疑，今天我們既然代表民意，就把這個東西如實來反映，請問在司法信任度很低這樣的環境之下，您個人未來如果有機會做大法官，如何確保自己的公正性？你能不能提個具體的例子或怎麼樣來做一下說明？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：好，謝謝委員讓我有補充說明的機會，我不論是在口頭報告或者是回復各黨團的問卷裡面，我都提到一個觀點：維持審判獨立是一個主觀上的確信，如何讓外界的人民能夠知道這個主觀上的確信確實是客觀可信的。我擔任學術研究工作者、擔任學校的老師超過20年的資歷，我的著作應該也不算少，其實這就是一個可檢驗的客觀標準，可以看我是不是有見解的擺盪，是不是在論述當中有傾向於特定的政治立場。"],["牛委員煦庭：提出具體有效的說法跟邏輯，對不對？所以換言之，你可以保證，在您過去教學的歷程中或曾經出版的著作中所形塑的這些原則跟標準會被帶到，如果你有幸就任大法官的話，它會成為一個準則，我可以這樣解釋嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：是的，我目前也是這樣的看法。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝，我們接下來針對幾個，因為現在憲法法庭好像越來越來越吃重了，非常多的憲政爭議等等，或者其實只是單純行政、立法之間的僵局，好像動不動都要上綱到憲法法庭來討論。既然立法院是民意機關，對於這些相關的法案，我們也希望可以了解一下被提名人的看法。","首先，我想請教一下被提名人針對財政收支劃分法的看法，因為我有特別做了一點點功課，您在政治大學的講堂上其實有把這個當成一個案例來跟學生研討跟說明。簡單來說，在野黨大家都認為我們增加了分配給地方政府的財源，有助於改善城鄉差距也好或者是加強地方自治、地方政府施政的效率等等，這些好處就不再贅述，那麼執政黨當然認為這個影響了中央施政的節奏跟計畫，最後他們採用的方法是用釋憲的方式，他們認為這個違反了憲法第一百四十七條。憲法第一百四十七條講說「中央為謀省與省之間的經濟平衡發展，對於貧瘠之省……」，這用「省」這個字當然是因為過去的時代脈絡，但簡單來講，其實就是對於地方政府應該要酌予補助，為了謀求縣與縣之間的經濟平衡發展，應該酌予補助，它是用原則性的規範。詹教授，您曾經在政治大學上課裡面就有談，關鍵爭議其實是立法權的修法會不會導致行政權因為財政的因素無法履行憲法義務，對不對？只有碰到這條紅線的時候，可能會上綱到變成用憲法法庭來解決的狀況；如果沒有碰到這條紅線，理論上應該是事權之間的調和及配套措施。我這樣提問應該沒有問題，對不對？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：那您覺得目前的狀況，3,700億要聲請釋憲合理嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：還是跟委員報告，其一就是這個案子已經繫屬在憲法法庭。其二，不論是3,700億或3,100億，它實際上在各憲法機關業務的執行上面扮演什麼樣的角色，這恐怕是要精準的一一盤點。很抱歉，我也只能按照您剛剛所提出的一般性指標跟您回復……"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，您請說。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：也就是說，財政是庶政之母，所以財政會不會構成到違憲的狀況，我目前的基本立場是會不會去撼動法定的部分，這個法定包含憲法層次跟法律層次，架空了它作為一個憲法機關職權行使的本質性，如果這一個底線沒有去碰到，縱使它可能會有窒礙難行，但是窒礙難行跟財政危機與違憲其實是還有距離的。"],["牛委員煦庭：還有距離，好，謝謝。我們還是針對幾個財政收支劃分法指向的問題跟被提名人探討，第一個，您覺得決定中央跟地方財政分配比例的這件事情，它是不是行政權專屬權力？還是其實立法權也可以基於反映民意的過程之中來進行修正跟討論？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：依照我們目前的法制設計，立法權在這裡是居於先導的地位，也就是說，它可以制定一個框架立法，在這個框架範圍之下，行政權可以再精準的細部分配。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，因為它畢竟是一部法，所以立法權當然有一定的角色，謝謝。現在行政端主張財政運作困難，您剛剛其實已經回答得差不多了，就是具體來講，到底什麼樣叫做財政運作困難？還是它其實只是行政效率跟事權分配的問題？就您目前了解的狀況，因為您認為還要經過精算跟分析，所以沒有辦法在這裡給我們答案嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：例如在某份問卷裡面有提到，監察院對外宣稱96%的預算被刪除，我不知道這個資訊對不對……"],["牛委員煦庭：那個是預算，我現在談的是財政收支劃分法。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：以目前來講，重新劃分中央跟地方財政的分配，我覺得錢跟權要做對等的設計，我也知道委員現在正好在處理地方制度法的修正……"],["牛委員煦庭：是啊！你也有做一下功課，謝謝。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在就是在討論這件事，就是說……"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：其實這就是權跟錢……"],["牛委員煦庭：錢跟權，事權的討論啦！好，我們談論到事權討論的部分，請問事權的討論應該是行政單位內部，因為它是中央跟地方分工的問題，也許要參酌一些民意的要求，所以立法院可能有角色，你覺得司法院用大法官釋憲等等的角色來介入事權的分配是合理的嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：誠如剛剛跟委員報告的，如果這個是有碰到底線的疑慮……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以碰到底線才要出手嘛，對不對？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：對，這個部分……"],["牛委員煦庭：我舉一個例子好了，我們大概有具體的例子，譬如說今天如果把中央所有可以調度的資源通通一刀切、通通劃到了地方政府，讓中央本來規劃的政策完全沒有辦法推行，那本席也同意這當然就出現了很嚴重的問題，您在自傳裡面或者在回答的時候也有講到中央行政權被架空的問題，但今天如果只是改變分配的比例，中央還是有一定的數額可以調度的時候，請問有碰到紅線嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：如果按照委員所假設情況的話，可能離違憲的距離還……"],["牛委員煦庭：還比較大，對不對？我就跟被提名人交換一下意見，以現在3,700億來講，它當然影響了……跟過去相比，中央當然要多分一部分錢到地方，但你要講因為這樣，所以它所有的預算都沒有辦法執行或者是行政權被架空……我講的應該不是假設，沒關係，後面有詳細的數據，我想以昭公信是沒有問題的。目前為止，我還滿欣賞被提名人的回答，您如果成為大法官，本案如果你有機會參與審理，因為這個已經被提釋憲，您比較傾向主張立法權依法擴大地方財政的正當性，還是比較傾向行政院應該有更大控管財務的自由？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：我自己從事地方自治多年的教學，我向來的主張就是當把自治權回歸或下放給地方自治團體的時候，錢其實也要跟著下去，否則就會出現有權無錢的窘境，所以一個前提命題是，假設中央跟地方的權限劃分要盡可能地朝向優於地方的方向位移的話，我會認同錢要跟著下去。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。再來是大家非常關心的題目，當然就是有關於死刑的存廢。您在自傳上面表示，我們要嚴正地面對每一個聲請釋憲的案件，妥適地尋覓出能顧及我國憲政實踐環境、又能夠契合人權指標的最佳衝突調和或解決方案。以您個人的立場，您支持廢除死刑嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：以目前的現況來講，對於廢死，我個人不支持，我的理由在於從憲法的角度來看，死刑的潛理解是因為有一個故意殺人罪的成立，而殺人罪的形成，憲法另外一個意味是，有一條人命或者數條人命的生命權被剝奪了，所以死刑其實是權益調和後，國家昭告民眾何謂正義的一種方案。當然，這個方案不是亙古不變的，當人民可以慢慢接受可能有另外一種機制也足以彰顯正義的時候，或許到那個時機，我們可以嚴正地考慮是不是不要再以剝奪生命的方式來調和基本權的衝突狀況。"],["牛委員煦庭：換言之，你也認為基本上要談論這麼深水區的議題之前，一定要兼顧司法的公益性與社會大眾對於司法公平性的期待，對不對？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。我個人認為這個題目本來就應該經過深切的討論，取得社會的最大公約數，再來思考，但問題是，憲判字第8號其實已經判下去了，針對死刑的要件，雖然宣告死刑是合憲的，但是從民意代表的角度來看，其中加諸了非常多非常不合理的各項邏輯，包含各審級需要有一致判決的制度創設，而這樣的標準並沒有出現在任何的憲法條文、法律條文，甚至當初聲請人的主張之中。請問被提名人，憲法法庭有無權力自行創設一套高於立法機關的量刑機制？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：關於這個問題，我在回復黨團的問卷裡面有提到，雖然站在人民的立場或者未來執行大法官職務的立場，大法官的判決有拘束力，這個我完全認同，但是如果委員要問我個人的意見，對於各審級一致決這樣的憲法法庭創設意見，我是有一些比較不一樣的想法。其實在憲判字第8號的解釋理由書裡面有特別以併予指出這樣的方式去談論國防案件，在那裡沒有去挑戰國民法官法裡面的非一致決，只要求三位職業法官要一致決，在判決的主文裡面也沒有彰顯職業法官一致決的話語，只說各審級一致決，所以……"],["牛委員煦庭：這個就是可怕的地方。大法官是法界最高的榮譽，其實未來你們如果做了大法官，都掌握了非常非常大的話語權，哪怕不是形於判決主文或什麼，都很有可能會影響整個法界大家的思考方向，從而去影響實務上的判決。就實務上來講，憲判字第8號出來之後，當然就看到越來越多這樣的狀況，包含非最嚴重之罪刑、未符合一致決等等，而造成社會很大的恐慌，我們真的非常希望……如果我們要重新討論這樣的事情，大概只有透過重新釋憲的方式，再來重新改善這個有大法官造法這樣疑慮的憲法判決。關於這一部分，如果你有幸可以成為大法官，我們希望你可以本於超然獨立的立場跟過去一貫的主張，用一個比較能夠讓社會大眾接受、維護司法公信力的方式來思考，這是本席給你的建議。","最後還有一點點時間，我要問一個比較有趣的問題，在前一段時間立法院有討論過一個概念，我們現在有這麼多的憲政衝突，其實問題是來自於到底誰是多數、誰是少數。現在的總統是得到40%的選票就可以當選，因為選舉是一個「三腳督」這樣的情況，可是國會卻是朝小野大，那當然就出現了到底誰比較重要的問題，對不對？結果就衍生了很多的憲政僵局。曾經有人主張用修法的方式來引入、比照法國總統的二輪選舉，那當然執政黨就主張這個是一定違憲，依憲法增修條文第二條規定，總統、副總統候選人應聯名登記，並且以得票多數之一組為當選，可是這樣的概念、這樣的精神跟一輪投票、二輪投票有絕對的關係嗎？我想請教一下被提名人的看法。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：我個人認為，基本上還是取決於總統副總統選罷法，目前這個法律是明定相對多數決，也就是說，由相對多數決的一組勝出。在大院有立法權的情況之下，其實是可以去思考有沒有可能修訂當選的門檻，等於對其公信力跟民主正當性的強化再去檢討。"],["牛委員煦庭：換言之，如果立法院經過討論、決議之後修法通過，把它變成二輪投票制，其實並不會違背憲法的精神，對不對？因為不管是達到一個門檻或者是相對多數，它其實都是多數，我覺得憲法框架的應該是一個相對大的範圍。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：對，憲法沒有設定到這麼細緻的投票門檻規定。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以如果立法院真的在討論之後把它變成二輪投票，這其實也是一個可以被思考的方向，而且它不會違反憲法的精神，我可以認定這是你的想法嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：從國民主權的角度來講，我認為並沒有顯然的違憲之虞。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。以上是我針對被提名人的質詢，感謝你清楚的回答，謝謝。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝牛委員，謝謝被提名人。","下一位請陳培瑜委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":532,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-4","speakers":["江啟臣","陳玉珍","林國成","劉建國","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","柯志恩","陳培瑜","陳昭姿","蘇巧慧","陳俊宇","牛煦庭","盧縣一"],"page_start":467,"meetingDate":["2025-07-14"],"gazette_id":"1146501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146501_00009","1146501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規\n定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並\n以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案（後接第二冊）","agenda_id":"1146501_00005"}}}