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{\"start\": 483.03, \"end\": 500.316, \"text\": \"那您提到的這些所謂的戰略觀我們必須要針對很多的專業技術性問題去進行跨部會的協商那從台美經貿工作小組的鄭麗君副院長這個主持以來我們這些個別的議題都會找相關的部會來了解他們對這議題的立場\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 483.03, \"end\": 483.57, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 483.57, \"end\": 483.97, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 483.97, \"end\": 484.09, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 484.09, \"end\": 484.27, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 484.27, \"end\": 484.511, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 484.511, \"end\": 484.811, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 484.811, \"end\": 485.151, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"謂\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 485.151, \"end\": 485.751, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"戰\"}, {\"word\": \"略\", \"start\": 485.751, \"end\": 486.451, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"觀\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 486.451, \"end\": 486.891, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, 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00:00:09,917\n主席麻煩有請行政院經貿談判辦公室的副總代表閻女士\n\n2\n00:00:18,499 --> 00:00:38,387\n我也好副总代表您好刚刚听取了您的报告我个人非常印象深刻也有相同的触感这一次川普总统发起了全球性的对等关税要求所有的国家在期限内要达成他所设计的目标\n\n3\n00:00:39,347 --> 00:01:03,778\n對中華民國來講我們在台灣也承受了很大的壓力所以這次談判的過程中間我相信不只是以行政院的談判代表辦公室包括我們的跨部會所有專業的人才都共同參與但因為這個時間很短促所以在談判過程中如您剛才講的過去一個貿易談判可能兩年到三年這次在這麼短暫的時間內\n\n4\n00:01:05,939 --> 00:01:30,266\n要做出一個決定這個就是說到底我們能承受的底線在哪裡因為川普總統是貿易商人出身他的談判是非常專業有經驗所以我現在第一個就把他的思維邏輯把它decompose就如同你講的東西在這個裡面已經列選出來的第一個\n\n5\n00:01:31,786 --> 00:01:56,260\n他的策略邏輯他本質已經講了這個對等關稅不僅是經濟問題是國安問題您剛剛也聽到了但是當川普講到的國安的時候他是把地緣經濟地緣政治地緣戰略全部融入到他的思考領域所以如果我們還在用經濟範圍來說練談的時候可能就會自己把他底線限制住了\n\n6\n00:01:57,180 --> 00:02:16,039\n我举例来讲我们美国要求我们要大幅增加国费全世界都一样未来短期内我们要增加到GDP3%这个数额非常大过去啊我们跟美国在军事上采购的东西啊我们每年花多少亿美金但是这里面包括了\n\n7\n00:02:24,305 --> 00:02:40,055\n還有所謂的總統的特別授權PDA但是後面的料配件還是要付錢像這些東西如果未來在國防預算採購經費持續增加我提供建議就是未來的我們代表能不能把這個向美國採購硬體裝備的錢去抵銷我們的\n\n8\n00:02:46,340 --> 00:02:58,939\n對美貿易的順差這樣子他來條件上要求就可以降低一點第二個美國的方法在川普總統我不評對個人我只用方法論他的邏輯思維預設立場一對一\n\n9\n00:03:01,994 --> 00:03:29,335\n威權主導掌握全局所以他提出來的對等關稅開放市場要加大投資加大軍購但制裁是選項所以他的手段他實際上有十個步驟如果我們每次只是根據一個去做回應所以談到第三階段第四階段你的底線可能就被逼出來了所以強迫坐上談判桌脅迫對手接受條件然後階段是好緩和氣氛然後再回到桌上\n\n10\n00:03:29,955 --> 00:03:57,910\n回到桌上以後就強硬態度破局這個時候就把談判對手的底線慢慢挖出來然後又回過頭來對你示好這個條件可以移讓對手可以讓步最後調整談判底線它的結果是美方是贏家這個過程中間我希望不是純粹以經濟貿易來看你可能要把整個地緣政治地緣戰略的問題納入思考那我們下一張圖就把這張圖\n\n11\n00:03:59,071 --> 00:04:22,199\n這個是解析強權競合尤其是美中競合印太經濟架構跟一帶一路這個是從川普第45任到拜登第46任到現在進入47任以後他們玩的這個戰略的手法這個就包括地緣政治地緣經濟地緣戰略的組合權各位看一下\n\n12\n00:04:24,468 --> 00:04:47,830\n前面是他對你友好他會設立使館加入國際組織交換到開始要平衡貿易赤字關稅問題與外交商務談判可以合併談懲罰性關稅這個一路下去到退出巴黎氣候協定這個地緣結盟分享這裡面有將近20個item它是可以前後調節的\n\n13\n00:04:49,071 --> 00:05:06,718\n所以他會你如果不能看到全貌只是針對他剛才的那個現在呢我們再把他剛才的這個套進去去對應其中的某一項比方講這個美債了美債可以脫了利益不會讓啊這個其他的這個\n\n14\n00:05:08,118 --> 00:05:27,148\n外匯啊匯率啊美元啊他可以操縱但我們只能怎麼只能做因應因為籌碼不在手上沒有意義可是有一個戰略觀的全局那你對美方出招你就可以了解到他是什麼樣的方法這樣子我們所有參與談判的代表就有一些\n\n15\n00:05:28,342 --> 00:05:43,531\n底线可以思考不要过早把我们的底线了亮出来那这个刚才您都谈了啊这个国家的经济发展战略立足台湾布局全球加强美国行销世界我们有愿景有承诺有目标方法手段\n\n16\n00:05:44,926 --> 00:06:01,573\n那这个呢台美对等关税作为您刚刚也提到了我们这个人民的关切问题总统也强调了因应要维护国家利益维护产业利益维护国民健康维护良善权您都提到了我也配合您的方法做出一个支持的论述\n\n17\n00:06:02,273 --> 00:06:17,649\n所以我們是希望什麼共同努力持續強化但是要找出我結構性不夠完整的地方跨部會內部協同在開會的過程中就不會把我們的底線老本一下子掏光因為談判的過程前面全部是順義\n\n18\n00:06:18,490 --> 00:06:36,037\n後面的TermsConditionsProvisor如果沒有搞清楚之前先答應了你會吃大虧所以總統提出因應措施推動台美雙邊關稅擴大對美商品軍備採購強化對美投資承諾解除所有非專業障礙您特別講到了非關稅\n\n19\n00:06:38,539 --> 00:06:51,416\n還有這個技術性的障礙關鍵這個都是專業性的東西要跨部會協商賴總統提出的重點我們都把它列出來了那最主要就是有一個\n\n20\n00:06:53,584 --> 00:07:20,271\n美国232条的调查范围因为我们很大的量苏美产品是在这个限制之内这个是属于专业的谈判那一般的我们的老百姓也不太了解要花很多的功夫所以今天在这个场合我并没有要我们的所有与会的政府官员去把底线谈出来我们提出的是建言如何强化如何能够做得最好这个东西呢我们把它做一个参考\n\n21\n00:07:20,791 --> 00:07:42,484\n那我想聽聽您對我剛才上面所提的建言做一個簡短的回應謝謝委員我想委員所提到的實際上是我們整個由鄭麗君副院長所領導的台北金包團隊我們在持續準備當中會盡我們的全力然後也把您所想到的東西也都納入思考\n\n22\n00:07:43,184 --> 00:08:00,789\n不過我簡單的說明一下針對您剛所提到的問題就是現在美國的這個政策上面有沒有考慮到地緣政治我們不便去幫美國的政策去做評論但是我想國安會是我們的談判團隊所以我相信國安會會思考到這些相關的問題\n\n23\n00:08:03,030 --> 00:08:20,316\n那您提到的這些所謂的戰略觀我們必須要針對很多的專業技術性問題去進行跨部會的協商那從台美經貿工作小組的鄭麗君副院長這個主持以來我們這些個別的議題都會找相關的部會來了解他們對這議題的立場\n\n24\n00:08:21,676 --> 00:08:36,367\n那針對您剛才特別提到的232的問題我想232跟對等關稅他想要去處理的問題的目的是不同的那特別是我們現在在談的對等關稅實際上是主要的主責單位是USTR那他是處理對等關稅而232的議題是屬於商務部所主導\n\n25\n00:08:39,750 --> 00:09:01,016\n可是因為我們在談判的過程當中我們實際上也會透過多次的會晤跟協商的過程去向商務部表達我們232對台灣產業的影響以及不利於台灣跟美國未來的供應鏈產業的發展所以這些議題我們都一併在談判團隊裡面有進行綜合性的思考所以以上先跟委員報告\n\n26\n00:09:03,043 --> 00:09:19,591\n謝謝您的說明我也特別強調基於國家的利益我們提出的是做建言或許某些地方我們還有努力的空間但是作為一個團隊來講共同為了維護台灣的國家利益我們要一起努力也謝謝我們與會團隊所有人努力謝謝謝謝陳永康\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n683\t9917\t主席麻煩有請行政院經貿談判辦公室的副總代表閻女士\n18499\t38387\t我也好副总代表您好刚刚听取了您的报告我个人非常印象深刻也有相同的触感这一次川普总统发起了全球性的对等关税要求所有的国家在期限内要达成他所设计的目标\n39347\t63778\t對中華民國來講我們在台灣也承受了很大的壓力所以這次談判的過程中間我相信不只是以行政院的談判代表辦公室包括我們的跨部會所有專業的人才都共同參與但因為這個時間很短促所以在談判過程中如您剛才講的過去一個貿易談判可能兩年到三年這次在這麼短暫的時間內\n65939\t90266\t要做出一個決定這個就是說到底我們能承受的底線在哪裡因為川普總統是貿易商人出身他的談判是非常專業有經驗所以我現在第一個就把他的思維邏輯把它decompose就如同你講的東西在這個裡面已經列選出來的第一個\n91786\t116260\t他的策略邏輯他本質已經講了這個對等關稅不僅是經濟問題是國安問題您剛剛也聽到了但是當川普講到的國安的時候他是把地緣經濟地緣政治地緣戰略全部融入到他的思考領域所以如果我們還在用經濟範圍來說練談的時候可能就會自己把他底線限制住了\n117180\t136039\t我举例来讲我们美国要求我们要大幅增加国费全世界都一样未来短期内我们要增加到GDP3%这个数额非常大过去啊我们跟美国在军事上采购的东西啊我们每年花多少亿美金但是这里面包括了\n144305\t160055\t還有所謂的總統的特別授權PDA但是後面的料配件還是要付錢像這些東西如果未來在國防預算採購經費持續增加我提供建議就是未來的我們代表能不能把這個向美國採購硬體裝備的錢去抵銷我們的\n166340\t178939\t對美貿易的順差這樣子他來條件上要求就可以降低一點第二個美國的方法在川普總統我不評對個人我只用方法論他的邏輯思維預設立場一對一\n181994\t209335\t威權主導掌握全局所以他提出來的對等關稅開放市場要加大投資加大軍購但制裁是選項所以他的手段他實際上有十個步驟如果我們每次只是根據一個去做回應所以談到第三階段第四階段你的底線可能就被逼出來了所以強迫坐上談判桌脅迫對手接受條件然後階段是好緩和氣氛然後再回到桌上\n209955\t237910\t回到桌上以後就強硬態度破局這個時候就把談判對手的底線慢慢挖出來然後又回過頭來對你示好這個條件可以移讓對手可以讓步最後調整談判底線它的結果是美方是贏家這個過程中間我希望不是純粹以經濟貿易來看你可能要把整個地緣政治地緣戰略的問題納入思考那我們下一張圖就把這張圖\n239071\t262199\t這個是解析強權競合尤其是美中競合印太經濟架構跟一帶一路這個是從川普第45任到拜登第46任到現在進入47任以後他們玩的這個戰略的手法這個就包括地緣政治地緣經濟地緣戰略的組合權各位看一下\n264468\t287830\t前面是他對你友好他會設立使館加入國際組織交換到開始要平衡貿易赤字關稅問題與外交商務談判可以合併談懲罰性關稅這個一路下去到退出巴黎氣候協定這個地緣結盟分享這裡面有將近20個item它是可以前後調節的\n289071\t306718\t所以他會你如果不能看到全貌只是針對他剛才的那個現在呢我們再把他剛才的這個套進去去對應其中的某一項比方講這個美債了美債可以脫了利益不會讓啊這個其他的這個\n308118\t327148\t外匯啊匯率啊美元啊他可以操縱但我們只能怎麼只能做因應因為籌碼不在手上沒有意義可是有一個戰略觀的全局那你對美方出招你就可以了解到他是什麼樣的方法這樣子我們所有參與談判的代表就有一些\n328342\t343531\t底线可以思考不要过早把我们的底线了亮出来那这个刚才您都谈了啊这个国家的经济发展战略立足台湾布局全球加强美国行销世界我们有愿景有承诺有目标方法手段\n344926\t361573\t那这个呢台美对等关税作为您刚刚也提到了我们这个人民的关切问题总统也强调了因应要维护国家利益维护产业利益维护国民健康维护良善权您都提到了我也配合您的方法做出一个支持的论述\n362273\t377649\t所以我們是希望什麼共同努力持續強化但是要找出我結構性不夠完整的地方跨部會內部協同在開會的過程中就不會把我們的底線老本一下子掏光因為談判的過程前面全部是順義\n378490\t396037\t後面的Terms ConditionsProvisor如果沒有搞清楚之前先答應了你會吃大虧所以總統提出因應措施推動台美雙邊關稅擴大對美商品軍備採購強化對美投資承諾解除所有非專業障礙您特別講到了非關稅\n398539\t411416\t還有這個技術性的障礙關鍵這個都是專業性的東西要跨部會協商賴總統提出的重點我們都把它列出來了那最主要就是有一個\n413584\t440271\t美国232条的调查范围因为我们很大的量苏美产品是在这个限制之内这个是属于专业的谈判那一般的我们的老百姓也不太了解要花很多的功夫所以今天在这个场合我并没有要我们的所有与会的政府官员去把底线谈出来我们提出的是建言如何强化如何能够做得最好这个东西呢我们把它做一个参考\n440791\t462484\t那我想聽聽您對我剛才上面所提的建言做一個簡短的回應謝謝委員我想委員所提到的實際上是我們整個由鄭麗君副院長所領導的台北金包團隊我們在持續準備當中會盡我們的全力然後也把您所想到的東西也都納入思考\n463184\t480789\t不過我簡單的說明一下針對您剛所提到的問題就是現在美國的這個政策上面有沒有考慮到地緣政治我們不便去幫美國的政策去做評論但是我想國安會是我們的談判團隊所以我相信國安會會思考到這些相關的問題\n483030\t500316\t那您提到的這些所謂的戰略觀我們必須要針對很多的專業技術性問題去進行跨部會的協商那從台美經貿工作小組的鄭麗君副院長這個主持以來我們這些個別的議題都會找相關的部會來了解他們對這議題的立場\n501676\t516367\t那針對您剛才特別提到的232的問題我想232跟對等關稅他想要去處理的問題的目的是不同的那特別是我們現在在談的對等關稅實際上是主要的主責單位是USTR那他是處理對等關稅而232的議題是屬於商務部所主導\n519750\t541016\t可是因為我們在談判的過程當中我們實際上也會透過多次的會晤跟協商的過程去向商務部表達我們232對台灣產業的影響以及不利於台灣跟美國未來的供應鏈產業的發展所以這些議題我們都一併在談判團隊裡面有進行綜合性的思考所以以上先跟委員報告\n543043\t559591\t謝謝您的說明我也特別強調基於國家的利益我們提出的是做建言或許某些地方我們還有努力的空間但是作為一個團隊來講共同為了維護台灣的國家利益我們要一起努力也謝謝我們與會團隊所有人努力謝謝謝謝陳永康\n","txt":"主席麻煩有請行政院經貿談判辦公室的副總代表閻女士\n我也好副总代表您好刚刚听取了您的报告我个人非常印象深刻也有相同的触感这一次川普总统发起了全球性的对等关税要求所有的国家在期限内要达成他所设计的目标\n對中華民國來講我們在台灣也承受了很大的壓力所以這次談判的過程中間我相信不只是以行政院的談判代表辦公室包括我們的跨部會所有專業的人才都共同參與但因為這個時間很短促所以在談判過程中如您剛才講的過去一個貿易談判可能兩年到三年這次在這麼短暫的時間內\n要做出一個決定這個就是說到底我們能承受的底線在哪裡因為川普總統是貿易商人出身他的談判是非常專業有經驗所以我現在第一個就把他的思維邏輯把它decompose就如同你講的東西在這個裡面已經列選出來的第一個\n他的策略邏輯他本質已經講了這個對等關稅不僅是經濟問題是國安問題您剛剛也聽到了但是當川普講到的國安的時候他是把地緣經濟地緣政治地緣戰略全部融入到他的思考領域所以如果我們還在用經濟範圍來說練談的時候可能就會自己把他底線限制住了\n我举例来讲我们美国要求我们要大幅增加国费全世界都一样未来短期内我们要增加到GDP3%这个数额非常大过去啊我们跟美国在军事上采购的东西啊我们每年花多少亿美金但是这里面包括了\n還有所謂的總統的特別授權PDA但是後面的料配件還是要付錢像這些東西如果未來在國防預算採購經費持續增加我提供建議就是未來的我們代表能不能把這個向美國採購硬體裝備的錢去抵銷我們的\n對美貿易的順差這樣子他來條件上要求就可以降低一點第二個美國的方法在川普總統我不評對個人我只用方法論他的邏輯思維預設立場一對一\n威權主導掌握全局所以他提出來的對等關稅開放市場要加大投資加大軍購但制裁是選項所以他的手段他實際上有十個步驟如果我們每次只是根據一個去做回應所以談到第三階段第四階段你的底線可能就被逼出來了所以強迫坐上談判桌脅迫對手接受條件然後階段是好緩和氣氛然後再回到桌上\n回到桌上以後就強硬態度破局這個時候就把談判對手的底線慢慢挖出來然後又回過頭來對你示好這個條件可以移讓對手可以讓步最後調整談判底線它的結果是美方是贏家這個過程中間我希望不是純粹以經濟貿易來看你可能要把整個地緣政治地緣戰略的問題納入思考那我們下一張圖就把這張圖\n這個是解析強權競合尤其是美中競合印太經濟架構跟一帶一路這個是從川普第45任到拜登第46任到現在進入47任以後他們玩的這個戰略的手法這個就包括地緣政治地緣經濟地緣戰略的組合權各位看一下\n前面是他對你友好他會設立使館加入國際組織交換到開始要平衡貿易赤字關稅問題與外交商務談判可以合併談懲罰性關稅這個一路下去到退出巴黎氣候協定這個地緣結盟分享這裡面有將近20個item它是可以前後調節的\n所以他會你如果不能看到全貌只是針對他剛才的那個現在呢我們再把他剛才的這個套進去去對應其中的某一項比方講這個美債了美債可以脫了利益不會讓啊這個其他的這個\n外匯啊匯率啊美元啊他可以操縱但我們只能怎麼只能做因應因為籌碼不在手上沒有意義可是有一個戰略觀的全局那你對美方出招你就可以了解到他是什麼樣的方法這樣子我們所有參與談判的代表就有一些\n底线可以思考不要过早把我们的底线了亮出来那这个刚才您都谈了啊这个国家的经济发展战略立足台湾布局全球加强美国行销世界我们有愿景有承诺有目标方法手段\n那这个呢台美对等关税作为您刚刚也提到了我们这个人民的关切问题总统也强调了因应要维护国家利益维护产业利益维护国民健康维护良善权您都提到了我也配合您的方法做出一个支持的论述\n所以我們是希望什麼共同努力持續強化但是要找出我結構性不夠完整的地方跨部會內部協同在開會的過程中就不會把我們的底線老本一下子掏光因為談判的過程前面全部是順義\n後面的Terms ConditionsProvisor如果沒有搞清楚之前先答應了你會吃大虧所以總統提出因應措施推動台美雙邊關稅擴大對美商品軍備採購強化對美投資承諾解除所有非專業障礙您特別講到了非關稅\n還有這個技術性的障礙關鍵這個都是專業性的東西要跨部會協商賴總統提出的重點我們都把它列出來了那最主要就是有一個\n美国232条的调查范围因为我们很大的量苏美产品是在这个限制之内这个是属于专业的谈判那一般的我们的老百姓也不太了解要花很多的功夫所以今天在这个场合我并没有要我们的所有与会的政府官员去把底线谈出来我们提出的是建言如何强化如何能够做得最好这个东西呢我们把它做一个参考\n那我想聽聽您對我剛才上面所提的建言做一個簡短的回應謝謝委員我想委員所提到的實際上是我們整個由鄭麗君副院長所領導的台北金包團隊我們在持續準備當中會盡我們的全力然後也把您所想到的東西也都納入思考\n不過我簡單的說明一下針對您剛所提到的問題就是現在美國的這個政策上面有沒有考慮到地緣政治我們不便去幫美國的政策去做評論但是我想國安會是我們的談判團隊所以我相信國安會會思考到這些相關的問題\n那您提到的這些所謂的戰略觀我們必須要針對很多的專業技術性問題去進行跨部會的協商那從台美經貿工作小組的鄭麗君副院長這個主持以來我們這些個別的議題都會找相關的部會來了解他們對這議題的立場\n那針對您剛才特別提到的232的問題我想232跟對等關稅他想要去處理的問題的目的是不同的那特別是我們現在在談的對等關稅實際上是主要的主責單位是USTR那他是處理對等關稅而232的議題是屬於商務部所主導\n可是因為我們在談判的過程當中我們實際上也會透過多次的會晤跟協商的過程去向商務部表達我們232對台灣產業的影響以及不利於台灣跟美國未來的供應鏈產業的發展所以這些議題我們都一併在談判團隊裡面有進行綜合性的思考所以以上先跟委員報告\n謝謝您的說明我也特別強調基於國家的利益我們提出的是做建言或許某些地方我們還有努力的空間但是作為一個團隊來講共同為了維護台灣的國家利益我們要一起努力也謝謝我們與會團隊所有人努力謝謝謝謝陳永康\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.683 --> 00:09.917\n主席麻煩有請行政院經貿談判辦公室的副總代表閻女士\n\n00:18.499 --> 00:38.387\n我也好副总代表您好刚刚听取了您的报告我个人非常印象深刻也有相同的触感这一次川普总统发起了全球性的对等关税要求所有的国家在期限内要达成他所设计的目标\n\n00:39.347 --> 01:03.778\n對中華民國來講我們在台灣也承受了很大的壓力所以這次談判的過程中間我相信不只是以行政院的談判代表辦公室包括我們的跨部會所有專業的人才都共同參與但因為這個時間很短促所以在談判過程中如您剛才講的過去一個貿易談判可能兩年到三年這次在這麼短暫的時間內\n\n01:05.939 --> 01:30.266\n要做出一個決定這個就是說到底我們能承受的底線在哪裡因為川普總統是貿易商人出身他的談判是非常專業有經驗所以我現在第一個就把他的思維邏輯把它decompose就如同你講的東西在這個裡面已經列選出來的第一個\n\n01:31.786 --> 01:56.260\n他的策略邏輯他本質已經講了這個對等關稅不僅是經濟問題是國安問題您剛剛也聽到了但是當川普講到的國安的時候他是把地緣經濟地緣政治地緣戰略全部融入到他的思考領域所以如果我們還在用經濟範圍來說練談的時候可能就會自己把他底線限制住了\n\n01:57.180 --> 02:16.039\n我举例来讲我们美国要求我们要大幅增加国费全世界都一样未来短期内我们要增加到GDP3%这个数额非常大过去啊我们跟美国在军事上采购的东西啊我们每年花多少亿美金但是这里面包括了\n\n02:24.305 --> 02:40.055\n還有所謂的總統的特別授權PDA但是後面的料配件還是要付錢像這些東西如果未來在國防預算採購經費持續增加我提供建議就是未來的我們代表能不能把這個向美國採購硬體裝備的錢去抵銷我們的\n\n02:46.340 --> 02:58.939\n對美貿易的順差這樣子他來條件上要求就可以降低一點第二個美國的方法在川普總統我不評對個人我只用方法論他的邏輯思維預設立場一對一\n\n03:01.994 --> 03:29.335\n威權主導掌握全局所以他提出來的對等關稅開放市場要加大投資加大軍購但制裁是選項所以他的手段他實際上有十個步驟如果我們每次只是根據一個去做回應所以談到第三階段第四階段你的底線可能就被逼出來了所以強迫坐上談判桌脅迫對手接受條件然後階段是好緩和氣氛然後再回到桌上\n\n03:29.955 --> 03:57.910\n回到桌上以後就強硬態度破局這個時候就把談判對手的底線慢慢挖出來然後又回過頭來對你示好這個條件可以移讓對手可以讓步最後調整談判底線它的結果是美方是贏家這個過程中間我希望不是純粹以經濟貿易來看你可能要把整個地緣政治地緣戰略的問題納入思考那我們下一張圖就把這張圖\n\n03:59.071 --> 04:22.199\n這個是解析強權競合尤其是美中競合印太經濟架構跟一帶一路這個是從川普第45任到拜登第46任到現在進入47任以後他們玩的這個戰略的手法這個就包括地緣政治地緣經濟地緣戰略的組合權各位看一下\n\n04:24.468 --> 04:47.830\n前面是他對你友好他會設立使館加入國際組織交換到開始要平衡貿易赤字關稅問題與外交商務談判可以合併談懲罰性關稅這個一路下去到退出巴黎氣候協定這個地緣結盟分享這裡面有將近20個item它是可以前後調節的\n\n04:49.071 --> 05:06.718\n所以他會你如果不能看到全貌只是針對他剛才的那個現在呢我們再把他剛才的這個套進去去對應其中的某一項比方講這個美債了美債可以脫了利益不會讓啊這個其他的這個\n\n05:08.118 --> 05:27.148\n外匯啊匯率啊美元啊他可以操縱但我們只能怎麼只能做因應因為籌碼不在手上沒有意義可是有一個戰略觀的全局那你對美方出招你就可以了解到他是什麼樣的方法這樣子我們所有參與談判的代表就有一些\n\n05:28.342 --> 05:43.531\n底线可以思考不要过早把我们的底线了亮出来那这个刚才您都谈了啊这个国家的经济发展战略立足台湾布局全球加强美国行销世界我们有愿景有承诺有目标方法手段\n\n05:44.926 --> 06:01.573\n那这个呢台美对等关税作为您刚刚也提到了我们这个人民的关切问题总统也强调了因应要维护国家利益维护产业利益维护国民健康维护良善权您都提到了我也配合您的方法做出一个支持的论述\n\n06:02.273 --> 06:17.649\n所以我們是希望什麼共同努力持續強化但是要找出我結構性不夠完整的地方跨部會內部協同在開會的過程中就不會把我們的底線老本一下子掏光因為談判的過程前面全部是順義\n\n06:18.490 --> 06:36.037\n後面的TermsConditionsProvisor如果沒有搞清楚之前先答應了你會吃大虧所以總統提出因應措施推動台美雙邊關稅擴大對美商品軍備採購強化對美投資承諾解除所有非專業障礙您特別講到了非關稅\n\n06:38.539 --> 06:51.416\n還有這個技術性的障礙關鍵這個都是專業性的東西要跨部會協商賴總統提出的重點我們都把它列出來了那最主要就是有一個\n\n06:53.584 --> 07:20.271\n美国232条的调查范围因为我们很大的量苏美产品是在这个限制之内这个是属于专业的谈判那一般的我们的老百姓也不太了解要花很多的功夫所以今天在这个场合我并没有要我们的所有与会的政府官员去把底线谈出来我们提出的是建言如何强化如何能够做得最好这个东西呢我们把它做一个参考\n\n07:20.791 --> 07:42.484\n那我想聽聽您對我剛才上面所提的建言做一個簡短的回應謝謝委員我想委員所提到的實際上是我們整個由鄭麗君副院長所領導的台北金包團隊我們在持續準備當中會盡我們的全力然後也把您所想到的東西也都納入思考\n\n07:43.184 --> 08:00.789\n不過我簡單的說明一下針對您剛所提到的問題就是現在美國的這個政策上面有沒有考慮到地緣政治我們不便去幫美國的政策去做評論但是我想國安會是我們的談判團隊所以我相信國安會會思考到這些相關的問題\n\n08:03.030 --> 08:20.316\n那您提到的這些所謂的戰略觀我們必須要針對很多的專業技術性問題去進行跨部會的協商那從台美經貿工作小組的鄭麗君副院長這個主持以來我們這些個別的議題都會找相關的部會來了解他們對這議題的立場\n\n08:21.676 --> 08:36.367\n那針對您剛才特別提到的232的問題我想232跟對等關稅他想要去處理的問題的目的是不同的那特別是我們現在在談的對等關稅實際上是主要的主責單位是USTR那他是處理對等關稅而232的議題是屬於商務部所主導\n\n08:39.750 --> 09:01.016\n可是因為我們在談判的過程當中我們實際上也會透過多次的會晤跟協商的過程去向商務部表達我們232對台灣產業的影響以及不利於台灣跟美國未來的供應鏈產業的發展所以這些議題我們都一併在談判團隊裡面有進行綜合性的思考所以以上先跟委員報告\n\n09:03.043 --> 09:19.591\n謝謝您的說明我也特別強調基於國家的利益我們提出的是做建言或許某些地方我們還有努力的空間但是作為一個團隊來講共同為了維護台灣的國家利益我們要一起努力也謝謝我們與會團隊所有人努力謝謝謝謝陳永康\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.683,"end":9.917,"text":"主席麻煩有請行政院經貿談判辦公室的副總代表閻女士"},{"start":18.499,"end":38.387,"text":"我也好副总代表您好刚刚听取了您的报告我个人非常印象深刻也有相同的触感这一次川普总统发起了全球性的对等关税要求所有的国家在期限内要达成他所设计的目标"},{"start":39.347,"end":63.778,"text":"對中華民國來講我們在台灣也承受了很大的壓力所以這次談判的過程中間我相信不只是以行政院的談判代表辦公室包括我們的跨部會所有專業的人才都共同參與但因為這個時間很短促所以在談判過程中如您剛才講的過去一個貿易談判可能兩年到三年這次在這麼短暫的時間內"},{"start":65.939,"end":90.266,"text":"要做出一個決定這個就是說到底我們能承受的底線在哪裡因為川普總統是貿易商人出身他的談判是非常專業有經驗所以我現在第一個就把他的思維邏輯把它decompose就如同你講的東西在這個裡面已經列選出來的第一個"},{"start":91.786,"end":116.26,"text":"他的策略邏輯他本質已經講了這個對等關稅不僅是經濟問題是國安問題您剛剛也聽到了但是當川普講到的國安的時候他是把地緣經濟地緣政治地緣戰略全部融入到他的思考領域所以如果我們還在用經濟範圍來說練談的時候可能就會自己把他底線限制住了"},{"start":117.18,"end":136.039,"text":"我举例来讲我们美国要求我们要大幅增加国费全世界都一样未来短期内我们要增加到GDP3%这个数额非常大过去啊我们跟美国在军事上采购的东西啊我们每年花多少亿美金但是这里面包括了"},{"start":144.305,"end":160.055,"text":"還有所謂的總統的特別授權PDA但是後面的料配件還是要付錢像這些東西如果未來在國防預算採購經費持續增加我提供建議就是未來的我們代表能不能把這個向美國採購硬體裝備的錢去抵銷我們的"},{"start":166.34,"end":178.939,"text":"對美貿易的順差這樣子他來條件上要求就可以降低一點第二個美國的方法在川普總統我不評對個人我只用方法論他的邏輯思維預設立場一對一"},{"start":181.994,"end":209.335,"text":"威權主導掌握全局所以他提出來的對等關稅開放市場要加大投資加大軍購但制裁是選項所以他的手段他實際上有十個步驟如果我們每次只是根據一個去做回應所以談到第三階段第四階段你的底線可能就被逼出來了所以強迫坐上談判桌脅迫對手接受條件然後階段是好緩和氣氛然後再回到桌上"},{"start":209.955,"end":237.91,"text":"回到桌上以後就強硬態度破局這個時候就把談判對手的底線慢慢挖出來然後又回過頭來對你示好這個條件可以移讓對手可以讓步最後調整談判底線它的結果是美方是贏家這個過程中間我希望不是純粹以經濟貿易來看你可能要把整個地緣政治地緣戰略的問題納入思考那我們下一張圖就把這張圖"},{"start":239.071,"end":262.199,"text":"這個是解析強權競合尤其是美中競合印太經濟架構跟一帶一路這個是從川普第45任到拜登第46任到現在進入47任以後他們玩的這個戰略的手法這個就包括地緣政治地緣經濟地緣戰略的組合權各位看一下"},{"start":264.468,"end":287.83,"text":"前面是他對你友好他會設立使館加入國際組織交換到開始要平衡貿易赤字關稅問題與外交商務談判可以合併談懲罰性關稅這個一路下去到退出巴黎氣候協定這個地緣結盟分享這裡面有將近20個item它是可以前後調節的"},{"start":289.071,"end":306.718,"text":"所以他會你如果不能看到全貌只是針對他剛才的那個現在呢我們再把他剛才的這個套進去去對應其中的某一項比方講這個美債了美債可以脫了利益不會讓啊這個其他的這個"},{"start":308.118,"end":327.148,"text":"外匯啊匯率啊美元啊他可以操縱但我們只能怎麼只能做因應因為籌碼不在手上沒有意義可是有一個戰略觀的全局那你對美方出招你就可以了解到他是什麼樣的方法這樣子我們所有參與談判的代表就有一些"},{"start":328.342,"end":343.531,"text":"底线可以思考不要过早把我们的底线了亮出来那这个刚才您都谈了啊这个国家的经济发展战略立足台湾布局全球加强美国行销世界我们有愿景有承诺有目标方法手段"},{"start":344.926,"end":361.573,"text":"那这个呢台美对等关税作为您刚刚也提到了我们这个人民的关切问题总统也强调了因应要维护国家利益维护产业利益维护国民健康维护良善权您都提到了我也配合您的方法做出一个支持的论述"},{"start":362.273,"end":377.649,"text":"所以我們是希望什麼共同努力持續強化但是要找出我結構性不夠完整的地方跨部會內部協同在開會的過程中就不會把我們的底線老本一下子掏光因為談判的過程前面全部是順義"},{"start":378.49,"end":396.037,"text":"後面的Terms ConditionsProvisor如果沒有搞清楚之前先答應了你會吃大虧所以總統提出因應措施推動台美雙邊關稅擴大對美商品軍備採購強化對美投資承諾解除所有非專業障礙您特別講到了非關稅"},{"start":398.539,"end":411.416,"text":"還有這個技術性的障礙關鍵這個都是專業性的東西要跨部會協商賴總統提出的重點我們都把它列出來了那最主要就是有一個"},{"start":413.584,"end":440.271,"text":"美国232条的调查范围因为我们很大的量苏美产品是在这个限制之内这个是属于专业的谈判那一般的我们的老百姓也不太了解要花很多的功夫所以今天在这个场合我并没有要我们的所有与会的政府官员去把底线谈出来我们提出的是建言如何强化如何能够做得最好这个东西呢我们把它做一个参考"},{"start":440.791,"end":462.484,"text":"那我想聽聽您對我剛才上面所提的建言做一個簡短的回應謝謝委員我想委員所提到的實際上是我們整個由鄭麗君副院長所領導的台北金包團隊我們在持續準備當中會盡我們的全力然後也把您所想到的東西也都納入思考"},{"start":463.184,"end":480.789,"text":"不過我簡單的說明一下針對您剛所提到的問題就是現在美國的這個政策上面有沒有考慮到地緣政治我們不便去幫美國的政策去做評論但是我想國安會是我們的談判團隊所以我相信國安會會思考到這些相關的問題"},{"start":483.03,"end":500.316,"text":"那您提到的這些所謂的戰略觀我們必須要針對很多的專業技術性問題去進行跨部會的協商那從台美經貿工作小組的鄭麗君副院長這個主持以來我們這些個別的議題都會找相關的部會來了解他們對這議題的立場"},{"start":501.676,"end":516.367,"text":"那針對您剛才特別提到的232的問題我想232跟對等關稅他想要去處理的問題的目的是不同的那特別是我們現在在談的對等關稅實際上是主要的主責單位是USTR那他是處理對等關稅而232的議題是屬於商務部所主導"},{"start":519.75,"end":541.016,"text":"可是因為我們在談判的過程當中我們實際上也會透過多次的會晤跟協商的過程去向商務部表達我們232對台灣產業的影響以及不利於台灣跟美國未來的供應鏈產業的發展所以這些議題我們都一併在談判團隊裡面有進行綜合性的思考所以以上先跟委員報告"},{"start":543.043,"end":559.591,"text":"謝謝您的說明我也特別強調基於國家的利益我們提出的是做建言或許某些地方我們還有努力的空間但是作為一個團隊來講共同為了維護台灣的國家利益我們要一起努力也謝謝我們與會團隊所有人努力謝謝謝謝陳永康"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":149,"blocks":[["陳委員永康：（9時35分）主席，麻煩有請行政院經貿談判辦公室副總代表顏女士。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：委員好。"],["陳委員永康：副總代表您好。剛剛聽取了您的報告，我個人印象非常深刻，也有相同的感觸。這一次川普總統發起了全球性的對等關稅，要求所有的國家在期限內要達成他所設計的目標，對中華民國來講，我們在臺灣也承受了很大的壓力，所以這次談判的過程中間，我相信不只是行政院的談判代表辦公室，包括我們的跨部會，所有專業的人才都共同參與，但因為時間很短促，所以在談判過程中，如您剛才講的，過去一個貿易談判可能兩年到三年，這次在這麼短暫的時間內要做出一個決定，這就是說，到底我們能承受的底線在哪裡？","因為川普總統是貿易商人出身，他的談判是非常專業、有經驗，所以我現在就是把他的思維邏輯decompose，就如同你講的東西在這裡已經列選出來的，第一個，他的策略邏輯的本質已經講了，對等關稅不僅是經濟問題、是國安問題，您剛剛也聽到了，當川普講到國安的時候，他是把地緣經濟、地緣政治、地緣戰略全部融入他的思考領域，所以如果我們還在用經濟範圍收斂，談的時候可能就會自己把底線限制住了。我舉例來講，美國要求我們要大幅增加國防預算，在全世界都一樣，未來短期內我們要增加到GDP的3%，這個數額非常大。過去我們跟美國在軍事上採購的東西每年花多少億美金，但是這裡面包括所謂的軍售FMS（Foreign Military Sales）、DCS（Direct Commercial Sales）、MF，還有所謂的總統特別授權PDA，但是後面的料配件還是要付錢，像這些東西如果未來國防預算採購經費持續增加，我提供的建議就是，未來我們代表能不能把向美國採購硬體裝備的錢去抵銷我們對美貿易的順差？這樣子他在條件上的要求就可以降低一點。","第二個，美國的方法，有關川普總統，我不評斷個人，我只用方法論針對他的邏輯思維、預設立場、一對一、威權主導、掌握全局，所以他提出來的對等關稅、開放市場、要加大投資、加大軍購，但制裁是選項，所以他的手段實際上有10個步驟，如果我們每次只是根據一個去做回應，談到第三階段、第四階段，你的底線可能就被逼出來了。所以強迫坐上談判桌，脅迫對手接受條件，然後階段示好，緩和氣氛，再回到桌上，回到桌上以後就強硬態度、破局，這個時候就把談判對手的底線慢慢挖出來，然後又回過頭來對你示好，這個條件讓對手可以讓步，最後調整談判底線，他的結果：美方是贏家，這個過程中間，我希望不是純粹以經濟貿易來看，你可能要把整個地緣政治、地緣戰略的問題納入思考。","我們看下一張圖，這個是解析強權競合，尤其是美中競合、印太經濟架構跟一帶一路，這個是從川普第45任到拜登第46任到現在進入第47任以後，他們玩的戰略手法，這就包括地緣政治、地緣經濟、地緣戰略的組合拳。各位看一下，前面是它對你友好，它會設立使館，協助加入國際組織、交換，到開始要平衡貿易赤字、關稅問題與外交商務談判，可以合併談懲罰性關稅，一路下去到退出巴黎氣候協定、地緣結盟分享，這裡面有將近20個item是可以前後調節的，所以你如果不能看到全貌，只是針對它剛才的那個部分……現在我們再把它剛才的那個部分套進去，去對應其中的某一項，比方美債，美債可以拖，利益不會讓，其他的外匯匯率、美元，它可以操縱，但我們只能因應，因為籌碼不在手上，沒有餘裕。可是有一個戰略觀的全局，你對美方出招就可以瞭解它是什麼樣的方法，這樣子我們所有參與談判的代表就有一些底線可以思考，不要過早把我們的底線亮出來。","剛才你談到國家經濟發展戰略是立足臺灣、布局全球、加強美國、行銷世界，我們有願景、承諾、目標、方法、手段；你剛剛也提到了臺美對等關稅作為，這是人民關切的問題。總統也強調因應作為要維護國家利益，維護產業利益，維護國民健康，維護糧食安全，你都提到了，我也配合你的方法做出一個支持的論述，我們希望共同努力、持續強化，但是要找出我結構性不夠完整的地方，跨部會內部協同，在開會的過程中就不會把我們的底線、老本一下子掏光。因為談判的過程前面全部是順應，後面的Terms and Conditions、Provision如果沒有搞清楚之前先答應了，你會吃大虧，所以總統提出因應措施，推動臺美雙邊關稅，擴大對美商品、軍備採購，強化對美投資，承諾解除所有非關稅障礙，你特別講到了非關稅障礙，還有技術性障礙，這個都是專業性的東西，要跨部會協商。","賴總統提出的重點，我們都把它列出來了，最主要就是有一個美國232條款調查範圍，因為我們有很大量的輸美產品是在這個限制之內，這個是屬於專業的談判，一般老百姓也不太瞭解，要花很多的功夫，所以今天在這個場合，我並沒有要所有與會的政府官員去把底線談出來。我提出的是建言，如何強化、如何能夠做到最好，這個東西我們把它做為一個參考，我想聽聽你對於我剛才上面所提的建言，請做一個簡短的回應。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：謝謝委員，委員所提到的10樣是由鄭麗君副院長所領導的臺美經貿團隊，我們在持續準備當中，會盡我們的全力，然後也把你所想到的東西都納入思考。不過我簡單地說明一下，針對您剛才所提到的問題，現在美國的政策上面有沒有考慮到地緣政治，我們不便去幫美國的政策評論，但是國安會是我們的談判團隊，所以我相信國安會會思考到這些相關的問題。您提到所謂的戰略觀，我們必須要針對很多的專業技術性問題去進行跨部會協商。從臺美經貿工作小組鄭麗君副院長主持以來，針對這些個別議題，我們都會找相關部會，瞭解他們對這些議題的立場。針對你剛才特別提到的232條款問題，232條款與對等關稅想要去處理的問題、目的是不同的，特別是我們現在在談的對等關稅實際上主要的主責單位是USTR，它是處理對等關稅，而232條款的議題是屬於商務部所主導。可是因為我們在談判的過程當中，實際上也會透過多次的會晤和協商，去向商務部表達232條款對臺灣產業的影響，以及不利於臺灣與美國未來的供應鏈產業發展，所以這些議題我們都一併在談判團隊裡面進行綜合性的思考，以上先跟委員報告。"],["陳委員永康：謝謝你的說明，我也特別強調，基於國家利益，我們提出的是建言，或許某些地方我們還有努力的空間，但是作為一個團隊來講，共同為了維護臺灣的國家利益，我們要一起努力，也謝謝我們與會團隊所有人的努力，謝謝。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳永康委員的質詢。","接下來由羅美玲委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-22","speakers":["黃仁","王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","徐巧芯","馬文君","黃國昌","陳俊宇","林憶君","林倩綺","陳冠廷","李坤城","沈伯洋","林楚茵"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-07-16"],"gazette_id":"1146701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、國家安全局局長、經濟部次長、財政部次長、農業部次長、行政院經貿談判辦\n公室副總談判代表報告「台美對等關稅談判進度、預期成果、對我國可能之衝擊及因應策略」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146701_00001"}}}