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\"end\": 1459.585, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 1459.585, \"end\": 1459.685, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1459.685, \"end\": 1460.286, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"昨\", \"start\": 1460.286, \"end\": 1460.426, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 1460.426, \"end\": 1460.566, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1460.566, \"end\": 1460.726, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"董\", \"start\": 1460.726, \"end\": 1460.866, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 1460.866, \"end\": 1461.046, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 1461.046, \"end\": 1461.246, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 1461.246, \"end\": 1461.406, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"授\", \"start\": 1461.406, \"end\": 1461.486, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 1461.486, \"end\": 1461.626, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 1461.626, \"end\": 1462.066, 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{\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1464.927, \"end\": 1465.067, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1465.067, \"end\": 1465.267, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 1465.267, \"end\": 1465.387, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"律\", \"start\": 1465.387, \"end\": 1465.507, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 1465.507, \"end\": 1465.667, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 1465.667, \"end\": 1466.087, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1466.087, \"end\": 1466.307, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1466.307, \"end\": 1466.428, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1466.428, \"end\": 1466.688, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 1466.688, \"end\": 1466.868, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 1466.868, \"end\": 1467.028, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 1467.028, \"end\": 1467.548, 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\"end\": 1470.289, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}]}, {\"start\": 1471.249, \"end\": 1482.238, \"text\": \"不能夠通過說違反憲法70條我覺得這段時間我看到行政院也提了一些東西比如行政院說這個依據憲法依據大法官會議解釋264跟391兩號解釋這個不行拜託264跟391去看一下內容\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1471.249, \"end\": 1471.349, \"score\": 0.757}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 1471.349, \"end\": 1471.93, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 1471.93, \"end\": 1472.77, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"違\"}, {\"word\": \"反\", \"start\": 1472.77, \"end\": 1473.111, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 1473.111, \"end\": 1473.751, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1473.751, \"end\": 1474.212, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 1474.212, \"end\": 1475.473, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"段\", \"start\": 1475.473, \"end\": 1475.753, 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{\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 1477.755, \"end\": 1477.915, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 1477.915, \"end\": 1477.935, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 1477.935, \"end\": 1478.035, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 1478.035, \"end\": 1478.155, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 1478.155, \"end\": 1479.536, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"依\", \"start\": 1479.536, \"end\": 1480.157, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 1480.157, \"end\": 1480.757, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"依\", \"start\": 1480.757, \"end\": 1481.037, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 1481.037, \"end\": 1481.138, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 1481.138, \"end\": 1481.218, \"score\": 0.744}, {\"word\": \"官\", \"start\": 1481.218, \"end\": 1481.318, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 1481.318, \"end\": 1481.378, \"score\": 0.661}, {\"word\": \"釋\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 1481.378, \"end\": 1481.558, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"號\"}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 1481.558, \"end\": 1481.678, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"釋\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1481.678, \"end\": 1481.698, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 1481.698, \"end\": 1481.798, \"score\": 0.729}, {\"word\": \"拜\", \"start\": 1481.798, \"end\": 1481.898, \"score\": 0.693}, {\"word\": \"託\"}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 1481.898, \"end\": 1481.918, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 1481.918, \"end\": 1481.998, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 1481.998, \"end\": 1482.118, \"score\": 0.767}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1482.118, \"end\": 1482.138, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 1482.138, \"end\": 1482.218, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"容\", \"start\": 1482.218, \"end\": 1482.238, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 1488.003, \"end\": 1503.393, \"text\": \"264跟391舊式預算跟法律案完全無關所以我不知道他引這個幹嘛引這個就是假裝講的好像是字講出來很專業然後來騙人民事實上內容根本跟法律案完全無關不知道在講什麼鬼東西再來行政院長說\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 1488.003, \"end\": 1489.124, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"舊\"}, {\"word\": \"式\", \"start\": 1489.124, \"end\": 1489.584, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 1489.584, \"end\": 1490.085, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 1490.085, \"end\": 1490.265, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 1490.265, \"end\": 1490.385, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"律\", \"start\": 1490.385, \"end\": 1490.505, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 1490.505, \"end\": 1490.625, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 1490.625, \"end\": 1490.865, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 1490.865, \"end\": 1491.125, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"無\", \"start\": 1491.125, \"end\": 1491.325, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 1491.325, \"end\": 1491.786, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1491.786, \"end\": 1491.866, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1491.866, \"end\": 1491.946, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1491.946, \"end\": 1491.986, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 1491.986, \"end\": 1492.026, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 1492.026, \"end\": 1492.106, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 1492.106, \"end\": 1492.366, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"引\", \"start\": 1492.366, \"end\": 1492.866, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"幹\"}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 1492.866, \"end\": 1493.407, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"引\", \"start\": 1493.407, \"end\": 1493.787, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1493.787, \"end\": 1493.887, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1493.887, \"end\": 1494.147, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"假\", \"start\": 1494.147, \"end\": 1494.888, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"裝\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1494.888, \"end\": 1494.968, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1494.968, \"end\": 1495.108, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 1495.108, \"end\": 1495.368, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1495.368, \"end\": 1495.568, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"字\", \"start\": 1495.568, \"end\": 1495.928, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 1495.928, \"end\": 1496.109, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 1496.109, \"end\": 1497.209, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 1497.209, \"end\": 1497.389, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 1497.389, \"end\": 1497.57, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"騙\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 1497.57, \"end\": 1497.73, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 1497.73, \"end\": 1498.21, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 1498.21, \"end\": 1498.37, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 1498.37, \"end\": 1498.73, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"容\", \"start\": 1498.73, \"end\": 1498.93, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"根\", \"start\": 1498.93, \"end\": 1499.05, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 1499.05, \"end\": 1499.251, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 1499.251, \"end\": 1499.471, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"法\", 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00:00:20,628\n我們麻煩衛福部次長然後法務部長還有警政署副署長來衛福部次長法務部部長警政署副署長最後可能再麻煩複密上台複密先休息一下等一下輪到你的時候再上來\n\n2\n00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:43,865\n好各位早安我想一開始我還是想要提就是因為這個今天主要是我們談到上禮拜在土城發生的這件事情那我想還是一樣我覺得這個人民安居樂業是政府的義務然後人民免於恐懼這個是憲法\n\n3\n00:00:46,326 --> 00:01:08,144\n要求政府該做到這是人民的基本人權所以你今天讓我們人民在路上都隨時擔心害怕然後社會治安沒有處理好其實這政府自己我覺得是要深刻檢討我想我最前面還要提的就是因為這件事情之後大家社會上面在討論說到底保護令還有沒有用我想保護令其實\n\n4\n00:01:08,965 --> 00:01:23,272\n我自己的觀察他還是有他的一定的效果所以他對於八成的施暴者還是有他的嚇阻作用只是說我們有沒有跟人民宣導清楚譬如說我們有沒有跟他說\n\n5\n00:01:24,893 --> 00:01:43,993\n發生什麼狀況家裡有什麼狀況要趕快報警然後在拿到保護令之前其實警察就可以依據家暴法幫你了我們有沒有跟人民多宣導這個甚至說陪你回去家裡拿東西這個都是警察有權利做的在拿到保護令之後呢對方想要靠近可以怎麼辦其實警察官還可以羈押他\n\n6\n00:01:45,655 --> 00:02:00,331\n這個也要讓人民知道再來呢你經濟上有困難那你進行了相關訴訟甚至你可以要求對方負擔相關的律師費這個東西我覺得都要讓人民知道而且要讓受虐者他有勇氣趕出來去請求協助我想\n\n7\n00:02:01,848 --> 00:02:27,836\n請各位這個要記在心裡這一定要多宣導啦我們今天宣導不是就是政府都整天花力氣都在宣導罷免然後都沒有人在管這個國家的民生然後人民的安全這樣的政府我覺得很不負責任那剛好那個法務部長也有提到說確實這段時間呢這個違反保護令的案子的數字在上升嘛那剛黃委員也有提到說其實到去年已經4497件了\n\n8\n00:02:30,097 --> 00:02:48,083\n也就是我們這個違反保護令這個家暴的案子其實一直在往上爬那我今天我想要請教一下部長就是說這個案子上個禮拜在土城發生的這個案子我想請問一下到底檢方這邊有沒有依照規定通報\n\n9\n00:02:51,606 --> 00:03:20,162\n這個委員報告齁這個有依照那個家暴法第六第34條之一有嗎跟哪些單位通報你知道嗎有跟那個家訪中心跟那個警察機關好那我再問一下齁就是那個副署長齁副署長勤務中心接到這些通報之後他後面有沒有做後續那個查訪或追蹤的動作\n\n10\n00:03:21,510 --> 00:03:49,953\n我跟委員報告我們這個案子接到報案之後我們同仁去現場處理那我們就有依照相關的處理的這個記錄之後我們也協助被害人申請保護令而且也有通報你們是一次性還是有持續追蹤我們有持續告訴被害人如果還有其他的施暴的狀況可以跟我們警察機關報案那次長齁那你們接獲那個地檢署的家暴傳真之後那你們後續的處理機制是一次性還是持續追蹤\n\n11\n00:03:52,142 --> 00:04:04,202\n我們是持續的來追蹤那像我再請教那你們都說是持續追蹤那請問你們的持續追蹤是怎麼樣的狀況下才會算結案這個持續追蹤才結案\n\n12\n00:04:07,198 --> 00:04:16,982\n就備案來說他的案件如果一個是走私法那這個部分我們會力挺陪庭那另外他如果後續還有一些離婚案件我們也會有一些專家來協助以及他之後離婚之後的\n\n13\n00:04:23,104 --> 00:04:43,229\n這個所有的身心復原或者他的這個重返這個我們說正常生活的這種工作社工都會陪伴那一旦到他已經穩定了一段時間我們就會視狀況跟被害人講我們這樣的服務會告一段落謝謝那這個就是我們要讓人民知道就是大家都會持續追蹤嘛比如說一次性問導遊\n\n14\n00:04:45,389 --> 00:05:08,224\n就是去看了一下就走這個請各位這個要做到好那再來我想跟部長請問一下因為部長其實這段時間大家都有在批評檢察官嘛就是說檢察官沒有申請羈押包括媒體包括民眾那像剛剛衛福部也有提到說這個是因為檢方沒有羈押所以如果連主管機關都說這個案子是檢方沒有羈押所以我跟\n\n15\n00:05:09,505 --> 00:05:24,395\n當然啦我個人覺得啦就是說這個案子我其實從案發到現在我反而是幫檢方說了不少話我說這個東西其實今天就算我去在這麼短的時間內拿到有限的資料你有沒有辦法第一時間判斷他有這個問題\n\n16\n00:05:25,456 --> 00:05:40,321\n這也是一個困難點但是這個也就是我們要去改善的地方就是你能夠提供檢察官有沒有完整的資料讓他能夠在那麼短的時間內要去研判這個人有沒有需要羈押但是呢\n\n17\n00:05:41,201 --> 00:06:07,827\n到底伸不伸壓這個變成外界對檢方的一個質疑點嘛那我想部長對於現在社會發生了那麼多案子那很多人都說我們檢方司法的羈押標準不一啦有一些案子大家都覺得這不可能押或過往都沒有押但最近都會押但是有一些案子大家覺得應該要押可是呢都沒有押然後反而後面發生了很多問題我想部長\n\n18\n00:06:09,229 --> 00:06:34,226\n你有沒有辦法去導正這個社會上對於司法羈押標準不一的這個質疑啊你們有沒有什麼作為我想這個是因為我一定也當過檢察官因為每個個案的犯罪情節不一那有相關的事證就譬如台中的違例那個刺殺案違例齁當時外界是質疑說檢察官為什麼不押什麼腳保失誤案那後來專案小組鍥而不捨後來經過幾次的搜索跟約談\n\n19\n00:06:35,507 --> 00:06:50,078\n後來那個人犯有有有羈押羈押申請羈押獲准所以這個是一個浮動性的一個證據的狀態那有沒有合乎到羈押要件一定要合乎到訴訟法裡面要的犯罪嫌疑重大要羈押的原因以及他的必要性嗎\n\n20\n00:06:50,778 --> 00:07:03,815\n所以每個案件都不一樣說我沒辦法去講說人民不接受啊對不對我說人民不接受不是我空口嘛就是最近的公布的民調人與對於司法的信任度其實是不高的我跟部長報部長應該有看到這些數據嘛\n\n21\n00:07:06,718 --> 00:07:23,799\n人民對司法信任度不高啊然後我們的司法羈押標準又如此的不一很多就我剛剛說的嘛很多大家覺得以前從來沒有人押或以前根本不可能押的案子現在都會押而且狂押押了以後就一直延押都出不來那有的呢\n\n22\n00:07:24,795 --> 00:07:41,042\n人民覺得生無痛絕社會痛恨死了欸卻都沒事喔所以沒有啦我跟部長說啦人民對於司法的信任就是在一個一個案子他們去累積嘛你是往好的方向去累積還是往壞的方向去累積那就部長您要想辦法解決啊是不是\n\n23\n00:07:42,995 --> 00:07:55,554\n因為這個委員知道這個羈押權是屬於法官嘛那這個有沒有羈押的必要性以及何謂羈押的要件跟原因或者是不是犯罪嫌疑重大這個法官有審酌有的連生壓都沒生壓啊\n\n24\n00:07:58,338 --> 00:08:19,618\n對所以這個個案每個一個情侶不一樣那這個時候沒有生壓被敗掉說那個案件以後沒辦法我們這個證明了的確棄而不捨下我們就生壓了我點出這個問題就好那因為您是部長人民對司法的信任度要靠您那我們只能點出問題那因為行政權在你手上\n\n25\n00:08:20,579 --> 00:08:44,696\n這必須你的義務你要把它做好不過呢針對這個案子我還是有幾個想要提出來的就是檢察官他在辦理類似的案子的時候他能不能夠把一些重要的東西要考量進去譬如說被告的心理狀態啦報復心態有沒有酒飲藥飲啊然後有情緒障礙或物質濫用這些高風險因子你有沒有都要提供給檢察官喔然後包括就是說被害人被害人因為\n\n26\n00:08:45,276 --> 00:09:13,090\n我們都知道我們在開庭的時候我們常常沒有時間傳被害人來尤其在內勤的時候內勤受理現行犯的時候我們沒有時間請被害人來嘛那這個時候被害人在警察那邊所做的筆錄就是非常的重要警察官參考的資料所以是不是法務部跟警政署這邊溝通好對於一個東西麻煩在警察的立稿裡面要特別提醒他一定要去問這個被害人\n\n27\n00:09:15,251 --> 00:09:21,789\n被告有沒有長期對他有虐待因為申請保護令今天可能是第一次但前面可能已經照三餐打了20年了\n\n28\n00:09:23,649 --> 00:09:52,054\n那所以你們在問警方在問筆錄的時候要把這個加進去問而不是就單依一次那一次申請保護令的行為因為那一次申請保護令我以前看那個筆錄啊他就只有附給我那一次的違反那個申請要申請保護令的原因嘛那在我會以為只有那一次而且通常被害人在檢察官在審理這種案子的時候他也不會來啊我們就是看警察的被害人筆錄就我不知道他過往已經被\n\n29\n00:09:52,594 --> 00:10:17,308\n痛扁了20年所以這塊是不是請法務部跟警政府這邊溝通好以後警察在問家暴案件的時候能夠就被害人過往的例子也許你不在這一次你要提告的範圍內但是能夠論述清楚讓警察官能夠對於要不要依照家暴法去申請羈押去做判斷請問部長跟副署長這有沒有辦法做到\n\n30\n00:10:18,148 --> 00:10:45,612\n跟委員報告事實上那個衛福部就是說在7月14號那個法務部衛福等機關對我有做一個防治性防暴加暴性菌防治小組推動的一個會議事實上委員剛才關心的那個就有建立一個風暴加暴風險評估的一個機制那的確如果說這些的高風險的這些因子就像有時候就有產生加暴情形但是\n\n31\n00:10:46,292 --> 00:10:58,766\n希望把這些的相關的資訊給檢察官做一個申請羈押的一個所以可以嗎好可以嘛對不對那麻煩要做到那這個我以後會盯著因為我跟各位報告\n\n32\n00:11:00,956 --> 00:11:25,135\n這個東西被害人論述不夠詳細這是我以前實務經驗是如此那我希望將來可以改變好不好我們讓檢察官能夠有更多的資料在這麼短的時間內能夠決定要不要生壓因為這次我都幫檢方講話因為我說我過往的經驗即使這個案子是我審理我也不敢說我一定會生壓因為他第一次被申請家暴案件嘛\n\n33\n00:11:25,715 --> 00:11:45,983\n那過往他到底有沒有過我不知道啊然後當事人來可能也沒有講得那麼清楚所以我沒有生壓就出去被害人被追殺死了結果全部人都罵檢方那檢方不是背了這個鍋所以是不是麻煩這一塊能夠補清楚我想這個是我們改善以及保障人民第一步該做的好不好\n\n34\n00:11:47,424 --> 00:12:05,535\n這個部分麻煩一定要做我想民眾他不是要去聽你做過什麼啦他只想看你還能做什麼所以你一直跟人民說我們開過什麼會議啊什麼什麼人民不甩你這個他只看你還能做什麼所以我這次聽到那個比如說\n\n35\n00:12:06,095 --> 00:12:24,326\n那個丹納斯颱風走了以後然後有一些地方說五天沒有電可以用那你講的再多人民不管他只說我五天沒有電可以用我很生氣我氣政府我人民只會這樣想或是說那個你說好嘉南平原很多地方讓人家去種電嘛很多光電都是\n\n36\n00:12:25,166 --> 00:12:48,209\n那個利用嘉南平原結果反而最後缺電最嚴重是他們那他們心裡會不滿嘛他不會去管你跟他說我為了你們做過什麼我電網顧得多好他不會去管這個啦所以我是希望說到底我常聽到幾句話叫做檢討測淨研議永遠是這幾句話但這幾句話的意思就是就是沒有然後就是沒有然後了所以\n\n37\n00:12:49,349 --> 00:13:09,637\n這個還是要麻煩你們注意一下那另外就是司法院這次報告只有提到警政署跟衛福部沒有法務部其實這點讓我蠻驚訝因為法務部明明在這個家暴案件裡面是一個很重要的點包括生壓等等那我欸司法院這次怎麼沒有提到法務部所以我看完資料之後我也覺得蠻訝異的是法務部跟司法院這邊對接有問題嗎還是複密\n\n38\n00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:48,710\n報告委員我想那個是觀點的問題因為我們提到警政署跟那個主管機關的那個社政這個部分主要是從那個保護令的核發的這個部分也就是我們這次那個主題那那個法務部的部分呢是比較在就是說當他已經就是又呈生了到一個犯罪就是違反家暴罪或者是說違反保護令罪的時候就是才會有跟那個法務部跟檢察官\n\n39\n00:13:51,051 --> 00:14:11,842\n我只是說我看報告的時候我覺得很驚訝司法院的報告裡面有提到警政署會服務部但是沒有提到法務部我只是對這個點比較有疑問因為我們是側重那個保護令的那個部分沒關係喔我想今天土城的這個事情喔社會上面是質疑保護令沒有用但是我覺得我自己的實務經驗過往的經驗告訴我其實有它的用處\n\n40\n00:14:13,142 --> 00:14:39,411\n絕對有用只是說我們要把不好的地方繼續把它補齊一點尤其是檢察官在生不生壓這個事情上面非常非常的重要那你必須提供給他完整的資料否則他生壓也不會過所以還是要麻煩大家一起能夠給檢方足夠的資料那部長那個法務部長部長我請教一下那個警政署跟衛福部可以先回座\n\n41\n00:14:41,011 --> 00:14:57,099\n那個調查官這幾天有個調查官他淪為搜捕手這個事情其實我還蠻訝異的過往去年有檢察官牽涉進詐騙案件有法官直接協助詐欺集團那有更多的律師跑進去參加詐騙集團這幾年\n\n42\n00:15:00,300 --> 00:15:20,039\n發生很多但是呢這次讓我比較驚訝的是過往這些司法人員參加詐騙集團他們都是從事高位階的工作可能是幕後的首腦可能是很重要就這一次連最幾層的搜捕手都有調查官去參都有調查官去擔任那其實這個表示\n\n43\n00:15:21,823 --> 00:15:36,921\n表示部裡面在這個控管上面出了嚴重的問題因為搜捕手是很低階的耶調官至少一個月八萬塊吧那怎麼會去當搜捕手呢那過往那個檢察官或那個法官他們至少都還是最核心的人啦\n\n44\n00:15:37,938 --> 00:16:01,330\n所以這讓我很驚訝我不知道部長你有沒有去思考這個問題在哪裡然後第二個更重要的點是我離開檢方之後我嚴守一個點就是我當年怎麼辦案的技巧以及通訊監察等等的技巧我一律封口不對外說我也不教別人怎麼躲檢方的偵查或躲檢方的監聽我都不教別人這個因為我覺得辦案的know-how\n\n45\n00:16:01,610 --> 00:16:21,726\n是一件很重要的事情這也是我對於過去職業的尊重以及我的職業道德但是如果今天調查官他直接加入變成是詐騙集團的搜捕手或車手或是首腦的時候他會把我們檢方調查官他們的偵辦的手法全部告訴這些犯罪集團\n\n46\n00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:49,326\n這是國家大災難部長你們有沒有在處理這件事這個的確是非常痛心的一件事情所以這件那個台中地檢的起訴了那調查局這件非常的痛心所以馬上就決議就開考機會一次計兩大過來免職那我想這個是要一介來之絕對不可再有這種的情形尤其是我們執法人員絕對不能去做本本就是要抓的\n\n47\n00:16:50,546 --> 00:17:14,812\n絕對沒辦法不能夠去進還有跟加入兆團的這種事情所以這部分我們會當一回事處理好不好這個我們一定會這個我會要求全部的我所屬的機關絕對不能去碰而且有這種要全力來一起來插機我跟部長報告這一次讓我驚訝的是連底層的搜捕手都有調查官要去當\n\n48\n00:17:16,616 --> 00:17:45,525\n跟之前完全不一樣之前是那幾個祖賢首腦重大獲利者收不手收一本簿子才多少錢而已啊他跟車手一樣都是最底層的人就既然我們調查官會去擋其實這是一件很嚴重而且國家怎麼了我們的公務體系怎麼了會讓我嚇一跳好不好部長這個很重要的一件事齁那第二個還有第二件事情就是剛剛黃委員有問的那個那個林志傑臉書的事情啊因為\n\n49\n00:17:45,965 --> 00:18:11,731\n我會重視這件事情是因為林志傑教授他常常來我們這裡我也認識他他是一個很不錯法學素養很不錯的教授他怎麼會去提到這個說廉政署去認證行政不中立因為我以為的行政中立法他的主管機關是權序部請問一下廉政署有權去認證你有沒有違反行政中立嗎有沒有權\n\n50\n00:18:14,072 --> 00:18:36,763\n這個不是廉政署的業管的對所以說這個論述可能有問題喔就是林教授的這個因為我很尊敬他嘛我以前在當檢察官就常常參加一些法學研討會都遇到他他竟然會認為說違反行政中立這個是廉政署認證所以這個還蠻嚴重的這整個是大錯誤啦還是說有修法最近有修法說廉政署可以這樣嗎\n\n51\n00:18:38,525 --> 00:18:58,039\n應該沒有嘛目前行政中立法並沒有這樣的一個決定那第二個就是說我也覺得比較奇怪可能要麻煩部長去了解一下為什麼這個林教授他會拿到這個資料我們內部是不是有人洩密如果有的話那才是真正違反行政不中立才是真正違反行政中立法\n\n52\n00:18:58,860 --> 00:19:17,086\n好不好就廉政署我們是常任文官嘛我們是事務官我們不能夠把資料提供給人家做政治上面的攻防好不好部長不然以後我們都是法律系畢業嘛這個的確行政中立這是一個文官應該要做的基本的那我想這個是\n\n53\n00:19:17,786 --> 00:19:35,002\n不管是廉政署我想各個機關都會去宣導要遵守行政中立所以我跟你講部長我們這邊在座這麼多都法律人我們都法律系畢業法律系不要以後被人家改名叫做政治鬥爭系好不好不要永遠都加入政治鬥爭這個就不好看了\n\n54\n00:19:37,244 --> 00:19:56,419\n所以請法務部要去調查一下看到底有沒有人洩密否則為什麼林教授會拿到這個密件他的法律依據是什麼也許他有法律依據可以拿我不知道但是你們要去調查一下為什麼他可以拿到這個密件到底是誰給他的但是你要回覆我們一下到底是怎麼回事還有就是說\n\n55\n00:19:57,914 --> 00:20:11,607\n部裡面是不是也要澄清一下認證這件事還有密件可否公開啦不然我跟你講大家鬧轟轟在講這個又是法務部又要背黑鍋了你們是不是應該發個信用稿或請連證署要去澄清這件事情這件事連證署處理的\n\n56\n00:20:16,252 --> 00:20:30,782\n處理案件的是廉政署嘛但是廉政署沒有問題我沒有看到問題是林志傑教授寫的文章說廉政署認證違反行政中立嘛那這個東西就會讓我覺得奇怪因為行政中立他是全區部那邊在管的嘛那為什麼\n\n57\n00:20:31,622 --> 00:20:58,567\n聯政署可以認證這就是法規上面的不對啊那我不想要法務部被黑鍋所以我今天才會趕快點出來跟部長報告這件事情不要讓某一些人他們有錯誤的觀念覺得法務部或聯政署配合政治人物在那邊亂搞嘛我是為了法務部著想所以法務部是不是要把這件事情趕快釐清一下好不好謝謝那請這部分真的要出來澄清啦然後最後我請教那個複密最後不好意思\n\n58\n00:20:59,567 --> 00:21:18,992\n兩分鐘就好不好意思這個週末一直有很多網軍在帶風向他說7月11號三讀通過的那個因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別條例是預算案他說依據憲法70條立法院不能夠增加預算我想請問一下複密這個東西是\n\n59\n00:21:23,556 --> 00:21:44,457\n我先講一個啦大一我們都上過法學序論的課啦對不對你也上過嘛中央法規標準法法律可以定名為法律條例通則這四種對不對那我想請問一下條例是不是中央法規標準法第二條所認定的法律的一種是不是\n\n60\n00:21:45,463 --> 00:22:07,455\n謝謝委員垂詢因為這邊是在立法院那司法院並不是這個條例的立書館我問你我是請教你大一的法學序論中央法規標準法第二條法律可以定名為法律條律通則四種東西那請問一下條律是不是屬於法律\n\n61\n00:22:10,789 --> 00:22:15,451\n這次主要是說有一些狀況有委員出來講了一句很奇妙的話他說這個特別條例的通過要編列預算所以叫特別預算就是預算的一種所以這叫做預算案\n\n62\n00:22:35,658 --> 00:22:50,636\n然後我這邊東看西看我覺得預算案跟法律案沒有那麼難分啦因為條例它就屬於法律的一種啦所以這個沒有說所謂的因為這個條例將來政府要編預算所以叫做預算案這個都胡說八道這個委員的法律程度\n\n63\n00:22:51,537 --> 00:23:11,831\n我已經是長期不敢恭維了那當然他自己要開記者會他要這樣講我就尊重他的發言權利但是我覺得這法律是完全不及格不然你們現在來打臉我說我哪裡講錯既然審查條例那就是法律案不是預算案立法院有權審查法律案以及預算案這兩個東西都是\n\n64\n00:23:12,891 --> 00:23:34,785\n法律規定是立法院可以審查的既然它叫做條例那就是法律案過往也有很多像譬如說老農津貼暫行條例它就是條例所以它是法律案所以當年賴清德要求這個從4000拉到5000塊當年也沒有人說賴清德違憲同樣的理由到今天來變成違憲莫名其妙\n\n65\n00:23:35,285 --> 00:23:55,461\n再來議後特別條例發六千塊這個也都是條例所以這個都是當年立法院過的那這個都是法律案我不懂說為什麼到今天條例會變成預算案然後他的解釋更好笑叫做這個條例過了以後政府要編列預算所以這叫預算案如果這個成立之後那過往我跟你講幾十年齁\n\n66\n00:23:56,542 --> 00:24:05,148\n有非常多的案子全部違憲而且很多是民進黨完全執政實在通過的條例都會違憲2003年還有2020年都有我查到很多條例\n\n67\n00:24:12,123 --> 00:24:30,289\n我覺得很奇怪這個國家已經瘋了連最基本的法律都可以拿出來騙人那我再補充一個所以說昨天那個董保成教授他教憲法的嘛董保成教授就說他一出來講這個就是法律案啊這就不是預算案啊那為什麼會講這個是法律案這個是預算案不能夠\n\n68\n00:24:31,249 --> 00:24:42,238\n不能夠通過說違反憲法70條我覺得這段時間我看到行政院也提了一些東西比如行政院說這個依據憲法依據大法官會議解釋264跟391兩號解釋這個不行拜託264跟391去看一下內容\n\n69\n00:24:48,003 --> 00:25:03,393\n264跟391舊式預算跟法律案完全無關所以我不知道他引這個幹嘛引這個就是假裝講的好像是字講出來很專業然後來騙人民事實上內容根本跟法律案完全無關不知道在講什麼鬼東西再來行政院長說\n\n70\n00:25:04,861 --> 00:25:25,877\n他依據憲法70條以及預算法91條他認為他將來不會編類不去執行我講第一個憲法70條就完全錯誤了因為憲法70條立案完全沒有違反因為我們審的就不是預算案我們並沒有增加預算我們審的是法律案這第一個沒有違反憲法70條第二個有沒有違反預算法91條沒有通知\n\n71\n00:25:28,123 --> 00:25:46,758\n行政院他說立法院沒有通知行政院但我跟各位報告7月3號院長召開的協商郭智輝部長親自到這邊來而且還發表說明院長還跟他說謝謝郭部長說得非常清楚那今天是郭部長回去忘了跟院長報告還是郭智輝他就是\n\n72\n00:25:47,765 --> 00:26:01,884\n整天在那邊想他從業的事情嗎最基本該向院長報告的是都忘記報告害院長出來講錯話說違反預算法91條請院長總統太院長搞清楚很多事情\n\n73\n00:26:02,825 --> 00:26:17,958\n我覺得不能亂講話你如果不知道不能講啊你今天講出來說立法院沒有向行政院說明結果你當天你的部長還來這裡說了一大堆耶還被院長感謝還被立法院長感謝所以\n\n74\n00:26:19,540 --> 00:26:29,910\n這國家不能這樣啦不能連院長連行政院院長等級的人都在帶頭騙人都在帶頭說違反預算法91條違憲法70條這個都在騙人這個都不對我想我們還是舊法論法的時代啦那蜂蜜您剛剛說這跟你無關嗎\n\n75\n00:26:40,677 --> 00:26:59,396\n好啦那我也不為難你我想可能請你講也不方便啦那我也跟各位報告過往老農津貼暫行條例以及醫後特別預算特別條例那罰六千塊那個其實都是以法例案的方式處理所以拜託有些人不要再騙人好謝謝各位好謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2411\t20628\t我們麻煩衛福部次長然後法務部長還有警政署副署長來 衛福部次長 法務部部長 警政署副署長最後可能再麻煩複密上台複密先休息一下 等一下輪到你的時候再上來\n23600\t43865\t好 各位早安我想一開始我還是想要提就是因為這個今天主要是我們談到上禮拜在土城發生的這件事情那我想還是一樣我覺得這個人民安居樂業是政府的義務然後人民免於恐懼這個是憲法\n46326\t68144\t要求政府該做到這是人民的基本人權所以你今天讓我們人民在路上都隨時擔心害怕然後社會治安沒有處理好其實這政府自己我覺得是要深刻檢討我想我最前面還要提的就是因為這件事情之後大家社會上面在討論說到底保護令還有沒有用我想保護令其實\n68965\t83272\t我自己的觀察他還是有他的一定的效果所以他對於八成的施暴者還是有他的嚇阻作用只是說我們有沒有跟人民宣導清楚譬如說我們有沒有跟他說\n84893\t103993\t發生什麼狀況家裡有什麼狀況要趕快報警然後在拿到保護令之前其實警察就可以依據家暴法幫你了我們有沒有跟人民多宣導這個甚至說陪你回去家裡拿東西這個都是警察有權利做的在拿到保護令之後呢對方想要靠近可以怎麼辦其實警察官還可以羈押他\n105655\t120331\t這個也要讓人民知道再來呢 你經濟上有困難那你進行了相關訴訟甚至你可以要求對方負擔相關的律師費這個東西我覺得都要讓人民知道而且要讓受虐者他有勇氣趕出來去請求協助我想\n121848\t147836\t請各位這個要記在心裡這一定要多宣導啦我們今天宣導不是就是政府都整天花力氣都在宣導罷免然後都沒有人在管這個國家的民生然後人民的安全這樣的政府我覺得很不負責任那剛好那個法務部長也有提到說確實這段時間呢這個違反保護令的案子的數字在上升嘛那剛黃委員也有提到說其實到去年已經4497件了\n150097\t168083\t也就是我們這個違反保護令這個家暴的案子其實一直在往上爬那我今天我想要請教一下部長就是說這個案子上個禮拜在土城發生的這個案子我想請問一下到底檢方這邊有沒有依照規定通報\n171606\t200162\t這個委員報告齁 這個有依照那個家暴法第六第34條之一有嗎 跟哪些單位通報你知道嗎有跟那個家訪中心跟那個警察機關好 那我再問一下齁 就是那個副署長齁 副署長勤務中心接到這些通報之後他後面有沒有做後續那個查訪或追蹤的動作\n201510\t229953\t我跟委員報告我們這個案子接到報案之後我們同仁去現場處理那我們就有依照相關的處理的這個記錄之後我們也協助被害人申請保護令而且也有通報你們是一次性還是有持續追蹤我們有持續告訴被害人如果還有其他的施暴的狀況可以跟我們警察機關報案那次長齁那你們接獲那個地檢署的家暴傳真之後那你們後續的處理機制是一次性還是持續追蹤\n232142\t244202\t我們是持續的來追蹤那像我再請教那你們都說是持續追蹤那請問你們的持續追蹤是怎麼樣的狀況下才會算結案這個持續追蹤才結案\n247198\t256982\t就備案來說他的案件如果一個是走私法那這個部分我們會力挺陪庭那另外他如果後續還有一些離婚案件我們也會有一些專家來協助以及他之後離婚之後的\n263104\t283229\t這個所有的身心復原或者他的這個重返這個我們說正常生活的這種工作社工都會陪伴那一旦到他已經穩定了一段時間我們就會視狀況跟被害人講我們這樣的服務會告一段落謝謝那這個就是我們要讓人民知道就是大家都會持續追蹤嘛比如說一次性問導遊\n285389\t308224\t就是去看了一下就走 這個請各位 這個要做到好 那再來我想跟部長請問一下 因為部長其實這段時間 大家都有在批評檢察官嘛就是說檢察官沒有申請羈押 包括媒體 包括民眾那像剛剛衛福部也有提到說 這個是因為檢方沒有羈押所以如果連主管機關都說 這個案子是檢方沒有羈押所以 我跟\n309505\t324395\t當然啦我個人覺得啦就是說這個案子我其實從案發到現在我反而是幫檢方說了不少話我說這個東西其實今天就算我去在這麼短的時間內拿到有限的資料你有沒有辦法第一時間判斷他有這個問題\n325456\t340321\t這也是一個困難點但是這個也就是我們要去改善的地方就是你能夠提供檢察官有沒有完整的資料讓他能夠在那麼短的時間內要去研判這個人有沒有需要羈押但是呢\n341201\t367827\t到底伸不伸壓 這個變成外界對檢方的一個質疑點嘛那我想部長 對於現在社會發生了那麼多案子那很多人都說我們檢方司法的羈押標準不一啦有一些案子大家都覺得這不可能押或過往都沒有押 但最近都會押但是有一些案子大家覺得應該要押 可是呢都沒有押然後反而後面發生了很多問題 我想部長\n369229\t394226\t你有沒有辦法去導正這個社會上對於司法羈押標準不一的這個質疑啊你們有沒有什麼作為我想這個是因為我一定也當過檢察官因為每個個案的犯罪情節不一那有相關的事證就譬如台中的違例那個刺殺案違例齁當時外界是質疑說檢察官為什麼不押什麼腳保失誤案那後來專案小組鍥而不捨後來經過幾次的搜索跟約談\n395507\t410078\t後來那個人犯有有有羈押羈押申請羈押獲准所以這個是一個浮動性的一個證據的狀態那有沒有合乎到羈押要件一定要合乎到訴訟法裡面要的犯罪嫌疑重大要羈押的原因以及他的必要性嗎\n410778\t423815\t所以每個案件都不一樣 說我沒辦法去講說人民不接受啊 對不對我說人民不接受不是我空口嘛就是最近的公布的民調 人與對於司法的信任度其實是不高的我跟部長報 部長應該有看到這些數據嘛\n426718\t443799\t人民對司法信任度不高啊然後我們的司法羈押標準又如此的不一很多 就我剛剛說的嘛 很多大家覺得以前從來沒有人押 或以前根本不可能押的案子現在都會押 而且狂押押了以後就一直延押都出不來那有的呢\n444795\t461042\t人民覺得生無痛絕 社會痛恨死了 欸 卻都沒事喔所以沒有啦 我跟部長說啦人民對於司法的信任 就是在一個一個案子他們去累積嘛你是往好的方向去累積還是往壞的方向去累積 那就部長您要想辦法解決啊是不是\n462995\t475554\t因為這個委員知道這個羈押權是屬於法官嘛那這個有沒有羈押的必要性以及何謂羈押的要件跟原因或者是不是犯罪嫌疑重大這個法官有審酌有的連生壓都沒生壓啊\n478338\t499618\t對 所以這個個案每個一個情侶不一樣那這個時候沒有生壓被敗掉說那個案件以後沒辦法我們這個證明了的確棄而不捨下我們就生壓了我點出這個問題就好那因為您是部長人民對司法的信任度要靠您那我們只能點出問題那因為行政權在你手上\n500579\t524696\t這必須 你的義務你要把它做好不過呢 針對這個案子我還是有幾個想要提出來的 就是檢察官他在辦理類似的案子的時候他能不能夠把一些重要的東西要考量進去 譬如說被告的心理狀態啦 報復心態有沒有酒飲藥飲啊 然後有情緒障礙或物質濫用這些高風險因子 你有沒有都要提供給檢察官喔然後包括就是說被害人 被害人 因為\n525276\t553090\t我們都知道我們在開庭的時候我們常常沒有時間傳被害人來尤其在內勤的時候內勤受理現行犯的時候我們沒有時間請被害人來嘛那這個時候被害人在警察那邊所做的筆錄就是非常的重要警察官參考的資料所以是不是法務部跟警政署這邊溝通好對於一個東西麻煩在警察的立稿裡面要特別提醒他一定要去問這個被害人\n555251\t561789\t被告有沒有長期對他有虐待因為申請保護令今天可能是第一次但前面可能已經照三餐打了20年了\n563649\t592054\t那所以你們在問警方在問筆錄的時候要把這個加進去問而不是就單依一次那一次申請保護令的行為因為那一次申請保護令我以前看那個筆錄啊他就只有附給我那一次的違反那個申請要申請保護令的原因嘛那在我會以為只有那一次而且通常被害人在檢察官在審理這種案子的時候他也不會來啊我們就是看警察的被害人筆錄就我不知道他過往已經被\n592594\t617308\t痛扁了20年所以這塊是不是請法務部跟警政府這邊溝通好以後警察在問家暴案件的時候能夠就被害人過往的例子也許你不在這一次你要提告的範圍內但是能夠論述清楚讓警察官能夠對於要不要依照家暴法去申請羈押去做判斷請問部長跟副署長這有沒有辦法做到\n618148\t645612\t跟委員報告事實上那個衛福部就是說在7月14號那個法務部衛福等機關對我有做一個防治性 防暴加暴性菌防治小組推動的一個會議事實上委員剛才關心的那個就有建立一個風暴加暴風險評估的一個機制那的確如果說這些的高風險的這些因子就像有時候就有產生加暴情形但是\n646292\t658766\t希望把這些的相關的資訊給檢察官做一個申請羈押的一個所以可以嗎好可以嘛對不對那麻煩要做到那這個我以後會盯著因為我跟各位報告\n660956\t685135\t這個東西被害人論述不夠詳細這是我以前實務經驗是如此那我希望將來可以改變好不好我們讓檢察官能夠有更多的資料在這麼短的時間內能夠決定要不要生壓因為這次我都幫檢方講話因為我說我過往的經驗即使這個案子是我審理我也不敢說我一定會生壓因為他第一次被申請家暴案件嘛\n685715\t705983\t那過往他到底有沒有過我不知道啊然後當事人來可能也沒有講得那麼清楚所以我沒有生壓就出去被害人被追殺死了結果全部人都罵檢方那檢方不是背了這個鍋所以是不是麻煩這一塊能夠補清楚我想這個是我們改善以及保障人民第一步該做的好不好\n707424\t725535\t這個部分麻煩一定要做我想民眾他不是要去聽你做過什麼啦他只想看你還能做什麼所以你一直跟人民說我們開過什麼會議啊什麼什麼人民不甩你這個他只看你還能做什麼所以我這次聽到那個 比如說\n726095\t744326\t那個丹納斯颱風走了以後然後有一些地方說五天沒有電可以用那你講的再多 人民不管他只說我五天沒有電可以用我很生氣 我氣政府我人民只會這樣想或是說那個 你說好嘉南平原很多地方讓人家去種電嘛很多光電都是\n745166\t768209\t那個利用嘉南平原結果反而最後缺電最嚴重是他們那他們心裡會不滿嘛他不會去管你跟他說我為了你們做過什麼我電網顧得多好他不會去管這個啦所以我是希望說到底我常聽到幾句話叫做檢討 測淨 研議永遠是這幾句話但這幾句話的意思就是就是沒有然後就是沒有然後了所以\n769349\t789637\t這個還是要麻煩你們注意一下那另外就是司法院這次報告只有提到警政署跟衛福部沒有法務部其實這點讓我蠻驚訝因為法務部明明在這個家暴案件裡面是一個很重要的點包括生壓等等那我 欸 司法院這次怎麼沒有提到法務部所以我看完資料之後我也覺得蠻訝異的是法務部跟司法院這邊對接有問題嗎還是複密\n800400\t828710\t報告委員我想那個是觀點的問題因為我們提到警政署跟那個主管機關的那個社政這個部分主要是從那個保護令的核發的這個部分也就是我們這次那個主題那那個法務部的部分呢是比較在就是說當他已經就是又呈生了到一個犯罪就是違反家暴罪或者是說違反保護令罪的時候就是才會有跟那個法務部跟檢察官\n831051\t851842\t我只是說 我看報告的時候 我覺得很驚訝 司法院的報告裡面有提到警政署會服務部 但是沒有提到法務部 我只是對這個點比較有疑問因為我們是側重那個保護令的那個部分沒關係喔 我想今天土城的這個事情喔 社會上面是質疑保護令沒有用但是我覺得我自己的實務經驗 過往的經驗告訴我 其實有它的用處\n853142\t879411\t絕對有用只是說我們要把不好的地方繼續把它補齊一點尤其是檢察官在生不生壓這個事情上面非常非常的重要那你必須提供給他完整的資料否則他生壓也不會過所以還是要麻煩大家一起能夠給檢方足夠的資料那部長 那個法務部長部長我請教一下那個警政署跟衛福部可以先回座\n881011\t897099\t那個調查官這幾天有個調查官他淪為搜捕手這個事情其實我還蠻訝異的過往去年有檢察官牽涉進詐騙案件有法官直接協助詐欺集團那有更多的律師跑進去參加詐騙集團這幾年\n900300\t920039\t發生很多但是呢這次讓我比較驚訝的是過往這些司法人員參加詐騙集團他們都是從事高位階的工作可能是幕後的首腦可能是很重要就這一次連最幾層的搜捕手都有調查官去參都有調查官去擔任那其實這個表示\n921823\t936921\t表示部裡面在這個控管上面出了嚴重的問題因為搜捕手是很低階的耶調官至少一個月八萬塊吧那怎麼會去當搜捕手呢那過往那個檢察官或那個法官他們至少都還是最核心的人啦\n937938\t961330\t所以這讓我很驚訝我不知道部長你有沒有去思考這個問題在哪裡然後第二個更重要的點是我離開檢方之後我嚴守一個點就是我當年怎麼辦案的技巧以及通訊監察等等的技巧我一律封口不對外說我也不教別人怎麼躲檢方的偵查或躲檢方的監聽我都不教別人這個因為我覺得辦案的know-how\n961610\t981726\t是一件很重要的事情這也是我對於過去職業的尊重以及我的職業道德但是如果今天調查官他直接加入變成是詐騙集團的搜捕手或車手或是首腦的時候他會把我們檢方調查官他們的偵辦的手法全部告訴這些犯罪集團\n983280\t1009326\t這是國家大災難部長你們有沒有在處理這件事這個的確是非常痛心的一件事情所以這件那個台中地檢的起訴了那調查局這件非常的痛心所以馬上就決議就開考機會一次計兩大過來免職那我想這個是要一介來之絕對不可再有這種的情形尤其是我們執法人員絕對不能去做本本就是要抓的\n1010546\t1034812\t絕對沒辦法不能夠去進還有跟加入兆團的這種事情所以這部分我們會當一回事處理好不好這個我們一定會這個我會要求全部的我所屬的機關絕對不能去碰而且有這種要全力來一起來插機我跟部長報告這一次讓我驚訝的是連底層的搜捕手都有調查官要去當\n1036616\t1065525\t跟之前完全不一樣 之前是那幾個祖賢首腦重大獲利者收不手 收一本簿子才多少錢而已啊他跟車手一樣都是最底層的人 就既然我們調查官會去擋 其實這是一件很嚴重 而且國家怎麼了我們的公務體系怎麼了 會讓我嚇一跳好不好 部長這個很重要的一件事齁那第二個 還有第二件事情就是剛剛黃委員有問的那個那個林志傑臉書的事情啊 因為\n1065965\t1091731\t我會重視這件事情是因為林志傑教授他常常來我們這裡我也認識他他是一個很不錯法學素養很不錯的教授他怎麼會去提到這個說廉政署去認證行政不中立因為我以為的行政中立法他的主管機關是權序部請問一下廉政署有權去認證你有沒有違反行政中立嗎有沒有權\n1094072\t1116763\t這個不是廉政署的業管的對 所以說這個論述可能有問題喔就是林教授的這個 因為我很尊敬他嘛我以前在當檢察官就常常參加一些法學研討會都遇到他他竟然會認為說違反行政中立這個是廉政署認證所以這個還蠻嚴重的 這整個是大錯誤啦還是說有修法 最近有修法說廉政署可以這樣嗎\n1118525\t1138039\t應該沒有嘛目前行政中立法並沒有這樣的一個決定那第二個就是說我也覺得比較奇怪可能要麻煩部長去了解一下為什麼這個林教授他會拿到這個資料我們內部是不是有人洩密如果有的話那才是真正違反行政不中立才是真正違反行政中立法\n1138860\t1157086\t好不好就廉政署我們是常任文官嘛我們是事務官我們不能夠把資料提供給人家做政治上面的攻防好不好部長不然以後我們都是法律系畢業嘛這個的確行政中立這是一個文官應該要做的基本的那我想這個是\n1157786\t1175002\t不管是廉政署我想各個機關都會去宣導要遵守行政中立所以我跟你講部長我們這邊在座這麼多都法律人我們都法律系畢業法律系不要以後被人家改名叫做政治鬥爭系好不好不要永遠都加入政治鬥爭這個就不好看了\n1177244\t1196419\t所以請法務部要去調查一下看到底有沒有人洩密否則為什麼林教授會拿到這個密件他的法律依據是什麼也許他有法律依據可以拿我不知道但是你們要去調查一下為什麼他可以拿到這個密件到底是誰給他的但是你要回覆我們一下到底是怎麼回事還有就是說\n1197914\t1211607\t部裡面是不是也要澄清一下認證這件事還有密件可否公開啦不然我跟你講大家鬧轟轟在講這個又是法務部又要背黑鍋了你們是不是應該發個信用稿或請連證署要去澄清這件事情這件事連證署處理的\n1216252\t1230782\t處理案件的是廉政署嘛但是廉政署沒有問題我沒有看到問題是林志傑教授寫的文章說廉政署認證違反行政中立嘛那這個東西就會讓我覺得奇怪因為行政中立他是全區部那邊在管的嘛那為什麼\n1231622\t1258567\t聯政署可以認證這就是法規上面的不對啊那我不想要法務部被黑鍋所以我今天才會趕快點出來跟部長報告這件事情不要讓某一些人他們有錯誤的觀念覺得法務部或聯政署配合政治人物在那邊亂搞嘛我是為了法務部著想所以法務部是不是要把這件事情趕快釐清一下好不好謝謝那請這部分真的要出來澄清啦然後最後我請教那個複密最後不好意思\n1259567\t1278992\t兩分鐘就好 不好意思這個週末一直有很多網軍在帶風向他說7月11號三讀通過的那個因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別條例是預算案他說依據憲法70條立法院不能夠增加預算我想請問一下 複密 這個東西是\n1283556\t1304457\t我先講一個啦 大一我們都上過法學序論的課啦 對不對你也上過嘛 中央法規標準法 法律可以定名為法 律 條例 通則 這四種對不對那我想請問一下 條例是不是中央法規標準法第二條所認定的法律的一種 是不是\n1305463\t1327455\t謝謝委員垂詢 因為這邊是在立法院 那司法院並不是這個條例的立書館我問你 我是請教你大一的法學序論中央法規標準法第二條 法律可以定名為法 律 條律 通則四種東西那請問一下 條律是不是屬於法律\n1330789\t1335451\t這次主要是說有一些狀況有委員出來講了一句很奇妙的話他說這個特別條例的通過要編列預算所以叫特別預算就是預算的一種所以這叫做預算案\n1355658\t1370636\t然後我這邊東看西看 我覺得預算案跟法律案沒有那麼難分啦因為條例它就屬於法律的一種啦所以 這個沒有說所謂的因為這個條例 將來政府要編預算 所以叫做預算案這個都胡說八道 這個委員的法律程度\n1371537\t1391831\t我已經是長期不敢恭維了那當然他自己要開記者會他要這樣講我就尊重他的發言權利但是我覺得這法律是完全不及格不然你們現在來打臉我說我哪裡講錯既然審查條例那就是法律案不是預算案立法院有權審查法律案以及預算案這兩個東西都是\n1392891\t1414785\t法律規定是立法院可以審查的 既然它叫做條例 那就是法律案過往也有很多 像譬如說老農津貼暫行條例它就是條例 所以它是法律案所以當年賴清德要求這個從4000拉到5000塊當年也沒有人說賴清德違憲同樣的理由到今天來變成違憲 莫名其妙\n1415285\t1435461\t再來議後特別條例發六千塊這個也都是條例所以這個都是當年立法院過的那這個都是法律案我不懂說為什麼到今天條例會變成預算案然後他的解釋更好笑叫做這個條例過了以後政府要編列預算所以這叫預算案如果這個成立之後那過往我跟你講幾十年齁\n1436542\t1445148\t有非常多的案子全部違憲而且很多是民進黨完全執政實在通過的條例都會違憲2003年還有2020年都有 我查到很多條例\n1452123\t1470289\t我覺得很奇怪這個國家已經瘋了連最基本的法律都可以拿出來騙人那我再補充一個所以說昨天那個董保成教授他教憲法的嘛董保成教授就說他一出來講這個就是法律案啊這就不是預算案啊那為什麼會講這個是法律案這個是預算案不能夠\n1471249\t1482238\t不能夠通過說違反憲法70條我覺得這段時間我看到行政院也提了一些東西比如行政院說這個依據憲法依據大法官會議解釋264跟391兩號解釋這個不行拜託264跟391去看一下內容\n1488003\t1503393\t264跟391舊式預算跟法律案完全無關所以我不知道他引這個幹嘛引這個就是假裝講的好像是字講出來很專業然後來騙人民事實上內容根本跟法律案完全無關不知道在講什麼鬼東西再來行政院長說\n1504861\t1525877\t他依據憲法70條以及預算法91條他認為他將來不會編類不去執行我講第一個憲法70條就完全錯誤了因為憲法70條立案完全沒有違反因為我們審的就不是預算案我們並沒有增加預算我們審的是法律案這第一個沒有違反憲法70條第二個有沒有違反預算法91條沒有通知\n1528123\t1546758\t行政院他說立法院沒有通知行政院但我跟各位報告7月3號院長召開的協商郭智輝部長親自到這邊來而且還發表說明院長還跟他說謝謝郭部長說得非常清楚那今天是郭部長回去忘了跟院長報告還是郭智輝他就是\n1547765\t1561884\t整天在那邊想他從業的事情嗎最基本該向院長報告的是都忘記報告 害院長出來講錯話說違反預算法91條請院長 總統太院長搞清楚很多事情\n1562825\t1577958\t我覺得不能亂講話 你如果不知道不能講啊你今天講出來說立法院沒有向行政院說明結果你當天 你的部長還來這裡說了一大堆耶還被院長感謝 還被立法院長感謝 所以\n1579540\t1589910\t這國家不能這樣啦 不能連院長 連行政院院長等級的人都在帶頭騙人都在帶頭說違反預算法91條 違憲法70條 這個都在騙人 這個都不對我想我們還是舊法論法的時代啦那 蜂蜜 您剛剛說這跟你無關嗎\n1600677\t1619396\t好啦 那我也不為難你 我想可能請你講也不方便啦那我也跟各位報告過往老農津貼暫行條例以及醫後特別預算 特別條例那罰六千塊 那個其實都是以法例案的方式處理所以拜託 有些人不要再騙人好 謝謝各位好 謝謝委員\n","txt":"我們麻煩衛福部次長然後法務部長還有警政署副署長來 衛福部次長 法務部部長 警政署副署長最後可能再麻煩複密上台複密先休息一下 等一下輪到你的時候再上來\n好 各位早安我想一開始我還是想要提就是因為這個今天主要是我們談到上禮拜在土城發生的這件事情那我想還是一樣我覺得這個人民安居樂業是政府的義務然後人民免於恐懼這個是憲法\n要求政府該做到這是人民的基本人權所以你今天讓我們人民在路上都隨時擔心害怕然後社會治安沒有處理好其實這政府自己我覺得是要深刻檢討我想我最前面還要提的就是因為這件事情之後大家社會上面在討論說到底保護令還有沒有用我想保護令其實\n我自己的觀察他還是有他的一定的效果所以他對於八成的施暴者還是有他的嚇阻作用只是說我們有沒有跟人民宣導清楚譬如說我們有沒有跟他說\n發生什麼狀況家裡有什麼狀況要趕快報警然後在拿到保護令之前其實警察就可以依據家暴法幫你了我們有沒有跟人民多宣導這個甚至說陪你回去家裡拿東西這個都是警察有權利做的在拿到保護令之後呢對方想要靠近可以怎麼辦其實警察官還可以羈押他\n這個也要讓人民知道再來呢 你經濟上有困難那你進行了相關訴訟甚至你可以要求對方負擔相關的律師費這個東西我覺得都要讓人民知道而且要讓受虐者他有勇氣趕出來去請求協助我想\n請各位這個要記在心裡這一定要多宣導啦我們今天宣導不是就是政府都整天花力氣都在宣導罷免然後都沒有人在管這個國家的民生然後人民的安全這樣的政府我覺得很不負責任那剛好那個法務部長也有提到說確實這段時間呢這個違反保護令的案子的數字在上升嘛那剛黃委員也有提到說其實到去年已經4497件了\n也就是我們這個違反保護令這個家暴的案子其實一直在往上爬那我今天我想要請教一下部長就是說這個案子上個禮拜在土城發生的這個案子我想請問一下到底檢方這邊有沒有依照規定通報\n這個委員報告齁 這個有依照那個家暴法第六第34條之一有嗎 跟哪些單位通報你知道嗎有跟那個家訪中心跟那個警察機關好 那我再問一下齁 就是那個副署長齁 副署長勤務中心接到這些通報之後他後面有沒有做後續那個查訪或追蹤的動作\n我跟委員報告我們這個案子接到報案之後我們同仁去現場處理那我們就有依照相關的處理的這個記錄之後我們也協助被害人申請保護令而且也有通報你們是一次性還是有持續追蹤我們有持續告訴被害人如果還有其他的施暴的狀況可以跟我們警察機關報案那次長齁那你們接獲那個地檢署的家暴傳真之後那你們後續的處理機制是一次性還是持續追蹤\n我們是持續的來追蹤那像我再請教那你們都說是持續追蹤那請問你們的持續追蹤是怎麼樣的狀況下才會算結案這個持續追蹤才結案\n就備案來說他的案件如果一個是走私法那這個部分我們會力挺陪庭那另外他如果後續還有一些離婚案件我們也會有一些專家來協助以及他之後離婚之後的\n這個所有的身心復原或者他的這個重返這個我們說正常生活的這種工作社工都會陪伴那一旦到他已經穩定了一段時間我們就會視狀況跟被害人講我們這樣的服務會告一段落謝謝那這個就是我們要讓人民知道就是大家都會持續追蹤嘛比如說一次性問導遊\n就是去看了一下就走 這個請各位 這個要做到好 那再來我想跟部長請問一下 因為部長其實這段時間 大家都有在批評檢察官嘛就是說檢察官沒有申請羈押 包括媒體 包括民眾那像剛剛衛福部也有提到說 這個是因為檢方沒有羈押所以如果連主管機關都說 這個案子是檢方沒有羈押所以 我跟\n當然啦我個人覺得啦就是說這個案子我其實從案發到現在我反而是幫檢方說了不少話我說這個東西其實今天就算我去在這麼短的時間內拿到有限的資料你有沒有辦法第一時間判斷他有這個問題\n這也是一個困難點但是這個也就是我們要去改善的地方就是你能夠提供檢察官有沒有完整的資料讓他能夠在那麼短的時間內要去研判這個人有沒有需要羈押但是呢\n到底伸不伸壓 這個變成外界對檢方的一個質疑點嘛那我想部長 對於現在社會發生了那麼多案子那很多人都說我們檢方司法的羈押標準不一啦有一些案子大家都覺得這不可能押或過往都沒有押 但最近都會押但是有一些案子大家覺得應該要押 可是呢都沒有押然後反而後面發生了很多問題 我想部長\n你有沒有辦法去導正這個社會上對於司法羈押標準不一的這個質疑啊你們有沒有什麼作為我想這個是因為我一定也當過檢察官因為每個個案的犯罪情節不一那有相關的事證就譬如台中的違例那個刺殺案違例齁當時外界是質疑說檢察官為什麼不押什麼腳保失誤案那後來專案小組鍥而不捨後來經過幾次的搜索跟約談\n後來那個人犯有有有羈押羈押申請羈押獲准所以這個是一個浮動性的一個證據的狀態那有沒有合乎到羈押要件一定要合乎到訴訟法裡面要的犯罪嫌疑重大要羈押的原因以及他的必要性嗎\n所以每個案件都不一樣 說我沒辦法去講說人民不接受啊 對不對我說人民不接受不是我空口嘛就是最近的公布的民調 人與對於司法的信任度其實是不高的我跟部長報 部長應該有看到這些數據嘛\n人民對司法信任度不高啊然後我們的司法羈押標準又如此的不一很多 就我剛剛說的嘛 很多大家覺得以前從來沒有人押 或以前根本不可能押的案子現在都會押 而且狂押押了以後就一直延押都出不來那有的呢\n人民覺得生無痛絕 社會痛恨死了 欸 卻都沒事喔所以沒有啦 我跟部長說啦人民對於司法的信任 就是在一個一個案子他們去累積嘛你是往好的方向去累積還是往壞的方向去累積 那就部長您要想辦法解決啊是不是\n因為這個委員知道這個羈押權是屬於法官嘛那這個有沒有羈押的必要性以及何謂羈押的要件跟原因或者是不是犯罪嫌疑重大這個法官有審酌有的連生壓都沒生壓啊\n對 所以這個個案每個一個情侶不一樣那這個時候沒有生壓被敗掉說那個案件以後沒辦法我們這個證明了的確棄而不捨下我們就生壓了我點出這個問題就好那因為您是部長人民對司法的信任度要靠您那我們只能點出問題那因為行政權在你手上\n這必須 你的義務你要把它做好不過呢 針對這個案子我還是有幾個想要提出來的 就是檢察官他在辦理類似的案子的時候他能不能夠把一些重要的東西要考量進去 譬如說被告的心理狀態啦 報復心態有沒有酒飲藥飲啊 然後有情緒障礙或物質濫用這些高風險因子 你有沒有都要提供給檢察官喔然後包括就是說被害人 被害人 因為\n我們都知道我們在開庭的時候我們常常沒有時間傳被害人來尤其在內勤的時候內勤受理現行犯的時候我們沒有時間請被害人來嘛那這個時候被害人在警察那邊所做的筆錄就是非常的重要警察官參考的資料所以是不是法務部跟警政署這邊溝通好對於一個東西麻煩在警察的立稿裡面要特別提醒他一定要去問這個被害人\n被告有沒有長期對他有虐待因為申請保護令今天可能是第一次但前面可能已經照三餐打了20年了\n那所以你們在問警方在問筆錄的時候要把這個加進去問而不是就單依一次那一次申請保護令的行為因為那一次申請保護令我以前看那個筆錄啊他就只有附給我那一次的違反那個申請要申請保護令的原因嘛那在我會以為只有那一次而且通常被害人在檢察官在審理這種案子的時候他也不會來啊我們就是看警察的被害人筆錄就我不知道他過往已經被\n痛扁了20年所以這塊是不是請法務部跟警政府這邊溝通好以後警察在問家暴案件的時候能夠就被害人過往的例子也許你不在這一次你要提告的範圍內但是能夠論述清楚讓警察官能夠對於要不要依照家暴法去申請羈押去做判斷請問部長跟副署長這有沒有辦法做到\n跟委員報告事實上那個衛福部就是說在7月14號那個法務部衛福等機關對我有做一個防治性 防暴加暴性菌防治小組推動的一個會議事實上委員剛才關心的那個就有建立一個風暴加暴風險評估的一個機制那的確如果說這些的高風險的這些因子就像有時候就有產生加暴情形但是\n希望把這些的相關的資訊給檢察官做一個申請羈押的一個所以可以嗎好可以嘛對不對那麻煩要做到那這個我以後會盯著因為我跟各位報告\n這個東西被害人論述不夠詳細這是我以前實務經驗是如此那我希望將來可以改變好不好我們讓檢察官能夠有更多的資料在這麼短的時間內能夠決定要不要生壓因為這次我都幫檢方講話因為我說我過往的經驗即使這個案子是我審理我也不敢說我一定會生壓因為他第一次被申請家暴案件嘛\n那過往他到底有沒有過我不知道啊然後當事人來可能也沒有講得那麼清楚所以我沒有生壓就出去被害人被追殺死了結果全部人都罵檢方那檢方不是背了這個鍋所以是不是麻煩這一塊能夠補清楚我想這個是我們改善以及保障人民第一步該做的好不好\n這個部分麻煩一定要做我想民眾他不是要去聽你做過什麼啦他只想看你還能做什麼所以你一直跟人民說我們開過什麼會議啊什麼什麼人民不甩你這個他只看你還能做什麼所以我這次聽到那個 比如說\n那個丹納斯颱風走了以後然後有一些地方說五天沒有電可以用那你講的再多 人民不管他只說我五天沒有電可以用我很生氣 我氣政府我人民只會這樣想或是說那個 你說好嘉南平原很多地方讓人家去種電嘛很多光電都是\n那個利用嘉南平原結果反而最後缺電最嚴重是他們那他們心裡會不滿嘛他不會去管你跟他說我為了你們做過什麼我電網顧得多好他不會去管這個啦所以我是希望說到底我常聽到幾句話叫做檢討 測淨 研議永遠是這幾句話但這幾句話的意思就是就是沒有然後就是沒有然後了所以\n這個還是要麻煩你們注意一下那另外就是司法院這次報告只有提到警政署跟衛福部沒有法務部其實這點讓我蠻驚訝因為法務部明明在這個家暴案件裡面是一個很重要的點包括生壓等等那我 欸 司法院這次怎麼沒有提到法務部所以我看完資料之後我也覺得蠻訝異的是法務部跟司法院這邊對接有問題嗎還是複密\n報告委員我想那個是觀點的問題因為我們提到警政署跟那個主管機關的那個社政這個部分主要是從那個保護令的核發的這個部分也就是我們這次那個主題那那個法務部的部分呢是比較在就是說當他已經就是又呈生了到一個犯罪就是違反家暴罪或者是說違反保護令罪的時候就是才會有跟那個法務部跟檢察官\n我只是說 我看報告的時候 我覺得很驚訝 司法院的報告裡面有提到警政署會服務部 但是沒有提到法務部 我只是對這個點比較有疑問因為我們是側重那個保護令的那個部分沒關係喔 我想今天土城的這個事情喔 社會上面是質疑保護令沒有用但是我覺得我自己的實務經驗 過往的經驗告訴我 其實有它的用處\n絕對有用只是說我們要把不好的地方繼續把它補齊一點尤其是檢察官在生不生壓這個事情上面非常非常的重要那你必須提供給他完整的資料否則他生壓也不會過所以還是要麻煩大家一起能夠給檢方足夠的資料那部長 那個法務部長部長我請教一下那個警政署跟衛福部可以先回座\n那個調查官這幾天有個調查官他淪為搜捕手這個事情其實我還蠻訝異的過往去年有檢察官牽涉進詐騙案件有法官直接協助詐欺集團那有更多的律師跑進去參加詐騙集團這幾年\n發生很多但是呢這次讓我比較驚訝的是過往這些司法人員參加詐騙集團他們都是從事高位階的工作可能是幕後的首腦可能是很重要就這一次連最幾層的搜捕手都有調查官去參都有調查官去擔任那其實這個表示\n表示部裡面在這個控管上面出了嚴重的問題因為搜捕手是很低階的耶調官至少一個月八萬塊吧那怎麼會去當搜捕手呢那過往那個檢察官或那個法官他們至少都還是最核心的人啦\n所以這讓我很驚訝我不知道部長你有沒有去思考這個問題在哪裡然後第二個更重要的點是我離開檢方之後我嚴守一個點就是我當年怎麼辦案的技巧以及通訊監察等等的技巧我一律封口不對外說我也不教別人怎麼躲檢方的偵查或躲檢方的監聽我都不教別人這個因為我覺得辦案的know-how\n是一件很重要的事情這也是我對於過去職業的尊重以及我的職業道德但是如果今天調查官他直接加入變成是詐騙集團的搜捕手或車手或是首腦的時候他會把我們檢方調查官他們的偵辦的手法全部告訴這些犯罪集團\n這是國家大災難部長你們有沒有在處理這件事這個的確是非常痛心的一件事情所以這件那個台中地檢的起訴了那調查局這件非常的痛心所以馬上就決議就開考機會一次計兩大過來免職那我想這個是要一介來之絕對不可再有這種的情形尤其是我們執法人員絕對不能去做本本就是要抓的\n絕對沒辦法不能夠去進還有跟加入兆團的這種事情所以這部分我們會當一回事處理好不好這個我們一定會這個我會要求全部的我所屬的機關絕對不能去碰而且有這種要全力來一起來插機我跟部長報告這一次讓我驚訝的是連底層的搜捕手都有調查官要去當\n跟之前完全不一樣 之前是那幾個祖賢首腦重大獲利者收不手 收一本簿子才多少錢而已啊他跟車手一樣都是最底層的人 就既然我們調查官會去擋 其實這是一件很嚴重 而且國家怎麼了我們的公務體系怎麼了 會讓我嚇一跳好不好 部長這個很重要的一件事齁那第二個 還有第二件事情就是剛剛黃委員有問的那個那個林志傑臉書的事情啊 因為\n我會重視這件事情是因為林志傑教授他常常來我們這裡我也認識他他是一個很不錯法學素養很不錯的教授他怎麼會去提到這個說廉政署去認證行政不中立因為我以為的行政中立法他的主管機關是權序部請問一下廉政署有權去認證你有沒有違反行政中立嗎有沒有權\n這個不是廉政署的業管的對 所以說這個論述可能有問題喔就是林教授的這個 因為我很尊敬他嘛我以前在當檢察官就常常參加一些法學研討會都遇到他他竟然會認為說違反行政中立這個是廉政署認證所以這個還蠻嚴重的 這整個是大錯誤啦還是說有修法 最近有修法說廉政署可以這樣嗎\n應該沒有嘛目前行政中立法並沒有這樣的一個決定那第二個就是說我也覺得比較奇怪可能要麻煩部長去了解一下為什麼這個林教授他會拿到這個資料我們內部是不是有人洩密如果有的話那才是真正違反行政不中立才是真正違反行政中立法\n好不好就廉政署我們是常任文官嘛我們是事務官我們不能夠把資料提供給人家做政治上面的攻防好不好部長不然以後我們都是法律系畢業嘛這個的確行政中立這是一個文官應該要做的基本的那我想這個是\n不管是廉政署我想各個機關都會去宣導要遵守行政中立所以我跟你講部長我們這邊在座這麼多都法律人我們都法律系畢業法律系不要以後被人家改名叫做政治鬥爭系好不好不要永遠都加入政治鬥爭這個就不好看了\n所以請法務部要去調查一下看到底有沒有人洩密否則為什麼林教授會拿到這個密件他的法律依據是什麼也許他有法律依據可以拿我不知道但是你們要去調查一下為什麼他可以拿到這個密件到底是誰給他的但是你要回覆我們一下到底是怎麼回事還有就是說\n部裡面是不是也要澄清一下認證這件事還有密件可否公開啦不然我跟你講大家鬧轟轟在講這個又是法務部又要背黑鍋了你們是不是應該發個信用稿或請連證署要去澄清這件事情這件事連證署處理的\n處理案件的是廉政署嘛但是廉政署沒有問題我沒有看到問題是林志傑教授寫的文章說廉政署認證違反行政中立嘛那這個東西就會讓我覺得奇怪因為行政中立他是全區部那邊在管的嘛那為什麼\n聯政署可以認證這就是法規上面的不對啊那我不想要法務部被黑鍋所以我今天才會趕快點出來跟部長報告這件事情不要讓某一些人他們有錯誤的觀念覺得法務部或聯政署配合政治人物在那邊亂搞嘛我是為了法務部著想所以法務部是不是要把這件事情趕快釐清一下好不好謝謝那請這部分真的要出來澄清啦然後最後我請教那個複密最後不好意思\n兩分鐘就好 不好意思這個週末一直有很多網軍在帶風向他說7月11號三讀通過的那個因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別條例是預算案他說依據憲法70條立法院不能夠增加預算我想請問一下 複密 這個東西是\n我先講一個啦 大一我們都上過法學序論的課啦 對不對你也上過嘛 中央法規標準法 法律可以定名為法 律 條例 通則 這四種對不對那我想請問一下 條例是不是中央法規標準法第二條所認定的法律的一種 是不是\n謝謝委員垂詢 因為這邊是在立法院 那司法院並不是這個條例的立書館我問你 我是請教你大一的法學序論中央法規標準法第二條 法律可以定名為法 律 條律 通則四種東西那請問一下 條律是不是屬於法律\n這次主要是說有一些狀況有委員出來講了一句很奇妙的話他說這個特別條例的通過要編列預算所以叫特別預算就是預算的一種所以這叫做預算案\n然後我這邊東看西看 我覺得預算案跟法律案沒有那麼難分啦因為條例它就屬於法律的一種啦所以 這個沒有說所謂的因為這個條例 將來政府要編預算 所以叫做預算案這個都胡說八道 這個委員的法律程度\n我已經是長期不敢恭維了那當然他自己要開記者會他要這樣講我就尊重他的發言權利但是我覺得這法律是完全不及格不然你們現在來打臉我說我哪裡講錯既然審查條例那就是法律案不是預算案立法院有權審查法律案以及預算案這兩個東西都是\n法律規定是立法院可以審查的 既然它叫做條例 那就是法律案過往也有很多 像譬如說老農津貼暫行條例它就是條例 所以它是法律案所以當年賴清德要求這個從4000拉到5000塊當年也沒有人說賴清德違憲同樣的理由到今天來變成違憲 莫名其妙\n再來議後特別條例發六千塊這個也都是條例所以這個都是當年立法院過的那這個都是法律案我不懂說為什麼到今天條例會變成預算案然後他的解釋更好笑叫做這個條例過了以後政府要編列預算所以這叫預算案如果這個成立之後那過往我跟你講幾十年齁\n有非常多的案子全部違憲而且很多是民進黨完全執政實在通過的條例都會違憲2003年還有2020年都有 我查到很多條例\n我覺得很奇怪這個國家已經瘋了連最基本的法律都可以拿出來騙人那我再補充一個所以說昨天那個董保成教授他教憲法的嘛董保成教授就說他一出來講這個就是法律案啊這就不是預算案啊那為什麼會講這個是法律案這個是預算案不能夠\n不能夠通過說違反憲法70條我覺得這段時間我看到行政院也提了一些東西比如行政院說這個依據憲法依據大法官會議解釋264跟391兩號解釋這個不行拜託264跟391去看一下內容\n264跟391舊式預算跟法律案完全無關所以我不知道他引這個幹嘛引這個就是假裝講的好像是字講出來很專業然後來騙人民事實上內容根本跟法律案完全無關不知道在講什麼鬼東西再來行政院長說\n他依據憲法70條以及預算法91條他認為他將來不會編類不去執行我講第一個憲法70條就完全錯誤了因為憲法70條立案完全沒有違反因為我們審的就不是預算案我們並沒有增加預算我們審的是法律案這第一個沒有違反憲法70條第二個有沒有違反預算法91條沒有通知\n行政院他說立法院沒有通知行政院但我跟各位報告7月3號院長召開的協商郭智輝部長親自到這邊來而且還發表說明院長還跟他說謝謝郭部長說得非常清楚那今天是郭部長回去忘了跟院長報告還是郭智輝他就是\n整天在那邊想他從業的事情嗎最基本該向院長報告的是都忘記報告 害院長出來講錯話說違反預算法91條請院長 總統太院長搞清楚很多事情\n我覺得不能亂講話 你如果不知道不能講啊你今天講出來說立法院沒有向行政院說明結果你當天 你的部長還來這裡說了一大堆耶還被院長感謝 還被立法院長感謝 所以\n這國家不能這樣啦 不能連院長 連行政院院長等級的人都在帶頭騙人都在帶頭說違反預算法91條 違憲法70條 這個都在騙人 這個都不對我想我們還是舊法論法的時代啦那 蜂蜜 您剛剛說這跟你無關嗎\n好啦 那我也不為難你 我想可能請你講也不方便啦那我也跟各位報告過往老農津貼暫行條例以及醫後特別預算 特別條例那罰六千塊 那個其實都是以法例案的方式處理所以拜託 有些人不要再騙人好 謝謝各位好 謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.411 --> 00:20.628\n我們麻煩衛福部次長然後法務部長還有警政署副署長來衛福部次長法務部部長警政署副署長最後可能再麻煩複密上台複密先休息一下等一下輪到你的時候再上來\n\n00:23.600 --> 00:43.865\n好各位早安我想一開始我還是想要提就是因為這個今天主要是我們談到上禮拜在土城發生的這件事情那我想還是一樣我覺得這個人民安居樂業是政府的義務然後人民免於恐懼這個是憲法\n\n00:46.326 --> 01:08.144\n要求政府該做到這是人民的基本人權所以你今天讓我們人民在路上都隨時擔心害怕然後社會治安沒有處理好其實這政府自己我覺得是要深刻檢討我想我最前面還要提的就是因為這件事情之後大家社會上面在討論說到底保護令還有沒有用我想保護令其實\n\n01:08.965 --> 01:23.272\n我自己的觀察他還是有他的一定的效果所以他對於八成的施暴者還是有他的嚇阻作用只是說我們有沒有跟人民宣導清楚譬如說我們有沒有跟他說\n\n01:24.893 --> 01:43.993\n發生什麼狀況家裡有什麼狀況要趕快報警然後在拿到保護令之前其實警察就可以依據家暴法幫你了我們有沒有跟人民多宣導這個甚至說陪你回去家裡拿東西這個都是警察有權利做的在拿到保護令之後呢對方想要靠近可以怎麼辦其實警察官還可以羈押他\n\n01:45.655 --> 02:00.331\n這個也要讓人民知道再來呢你經濟上有困難那你進行了相關訴訟甚至你可以要求對方負擔相關的律師費這個東西我覺得都要讓人民知道而且要讓受虐者他有勇氣趕出來去請求協助我想\n\n02:01.848 --> 02:27.836\n請各位這個要記在心裡這一定要多宣導啦我們今天宣導不是就是政府都整天花力氣都在宣導罷免然後都沒有人在管這個國家的民生然後人民的安全這樣的政府我覺得很不負責任那剛好那個法務部長也有提到說確實這段時間呢這個違反保護令的案子的數字在上升嘛那剛黃委員也有提到說其實到去年已經4497件了\n\n02:30.097 --> 02:48.083\n也就是我們這個違反保護令這個家暴的案子其實一直在往上爬那我今天我想要請教一下部長就是說這個案子上個禮拜在土城發生的這個案子我想請問一下到底檢方這邊有沒有依照規定通報\n\n02:51.606 --> 03:20.162\n這個委員報告齁這個有依照那個家暴法第六第34條之一有嗎跟哪些單位通報你知道嗎有跟那個家訪中心跟那個警察機關好那我再問一下齁就是那個副署長齁副署長勤務中心接到這些通報之後他後面有沒有做後續那個查訪或追蹤的動作\n\n03:21.510 --> 03:49.953\n我跟委員報告我們這個案子接到報案之後我們同仁去現場處理那我們就有依照相關的處理的這個記錄之後我們也協助被害人申請保護令而且也有通報你們是一次性還是有持續追蹤我們有持續告訴被害人如果還有其他的施暴的狀況可以跟我們警察機關報案那次長齁那你們接獲那個地檢署的家暴傳真之後那你們後續的處理機制是一次性還是持續追蹤\n\n03:52.142 --> 04:04.202\n我們是持續的來追蹤那像我再請教那你們都說是持續追蹤那請問你們的持續追蹤是怎麼樣的狀況下才會算結案這個持續追蹤才結案\n\n04:07.198 --> 04:16.982\n就備案來說他的案件如果一個是走私法那這個部分我們會力挺陪庭那另外他如果後續還有一些離婚案件我們也會有一些專家來協助以及他之後離婚之後的\n\n04:23.104 --> 04:43.229\n這個所有的身心復原或者他的這個重返這個我們說正常生活的這種工作社工都會陪伴那一旦到他已經穩定了一段時間我們就會視狀況跟被害人講我們這樣的服務會告一段落謝謝那這個就是我們要讓人民知道就是大家都會持續追蹤嘛比如說一次性問導遊\n\n04:45.389 --> 05:08.224\n就是去看了一下就走這個請各位這個要做到好那再來我想跟部長請問一下因為部長其實這段時間大家都有在批評檢察官嘛就是說檢察官沒有申請羈押包括媒體包括民眾那像剛剛衛福部也有提到說這個是因為檢方沒有羈押所以如果連主管機關都說這個案子是檢方沒有羈押所以我跟\n\n05:09.505 --> 05:24.395\n當然啦我個人覺得啦就是說這個案子我其實從案發到現在我反而是幫檢方說了不少話我說這個東西其實今天就算我去在這麼短的時間內拿到有限的資料你有沒有辦法第一時間判斷他有這個問題\n\n05:25.456 --> 05:40.321\n這也是一個困難點但是這個也就是我們要去改善的地方就是你能夠提供檢察官有沒有完整的資料讓他能夠在那麼短的時間內要去研判這個人有沒有需要羈押但是呢\n\n05:41.201 --> 06:07.827\n到底伸不伸壓這個變成外界對檢方的一個質疑點嘛那我想部長對於現在社會發生了那麼多案子那很多人都說我們檢方司法的羈押標準不一啦有一些案子大家都覺得這不可能押或過往都沒有押但最近都會押但是有一些案子大家覺得應該要押可是呢都沒有押然後反而後面發生了很多問題我想部長\n\n06:09.229 --> 06:34.226\n你有沒有辦法去導正這個社會上對於司法羈押標準不一的這個質疑啊你們有沒有什麼作為我想這個是因為我一定也當過檢察官因為每個個案的犯罪情節不一那有相關的事證就譬如台中的違例那個刺殺案違例齁當時外界是質疑說檢察官為什麼不押什麼腳保失誤案那後來專案小組鍥而不捨後來經過幾次的搜索跟約談\n\n06:35.507 --> 06:50.078\n後來那個人犯有有有羈押羈押申請羈押獲准所以這個是一個浮動性的一個證據的狀態那有沒有合乎到羈押要件一定要合乎到訴訟法裡面要的犯罪嫌疑重大要羈押的原因以及他的必要性嗎\n\n06:50.778 --> 07:03.815\n所以每個案件都不一樣說我沒辦法去講說人民不接受啊對不對我說人民不接受不是我空口嘛就是最近的公布的民調人與對於司法的信任度其實是不高的我跟部長報部長應該有看到這些數據嘛\n\n07:06.718 --> 07:23.799\n人民對司法信任度不高啊然後我們的司法羈押標準又如此的不一很多就我剛剛說的嘛很多大家覺得以前從來沒有人押或以前根本不可能押的案子現在都會押而且狂押押了以後就一直延押都出不來那有的呢\n\n07:24.795 --> 07:41.042\n人民覺得生無痛絕社會痛恨死了欸卻都沒事喔所以沒有啦我跟部長說啦人民對於司法的信任就是在一個一個案子他們去累積嘛你是往好的方向去累積還是往壞的方向去累積那就部長您要想辦法解決啊是不是\n\n07:42.995 --> 07:55.554\n因為這個委員知道這個羈押權是屬於法官嘛那這個有沒有羈押的必要性以及何謂羈押的要件跟原因或者是不是犯罪嫌疑重大這個法官有審酌有的連生壓都沒生壓啊\n\n07:58.338 --> 08:19.618\n對所以這個個案每個一個情侶不一樣那這個時候沒有生壓被敗掉說那個案件以後沒辦法我們這個證明了的確棄而不捨下我們就生壓了我點出這個問題就好那因為您是部長人民對司法的信任度要靠您那我們只能點出問題那因為行政權在你手上\n\n08:20.579 --> 08:44.696\n這必須你的義務你要把它做好不過呢針對這個案子我還是有幾個想要提出來的就是檢察官他在辦理類似的案子的時候他能不能夠把一些重要的東西要考量進去譬如說被告的心理狀態啦報復心態有沒有酒飲藥飲啊然後有情緒障礙或物質濫用這些高風險因子你有沒有都要提供給檢察官喔然後包括就是說被害人被害人因為\n\n08:45.276 --> 09:13.090\n我們都知道我們在開庭的時候我們常常沒有時間傳被害人來尤其在內勤的時候內勤受理現行犯的時候我們沒有時間請被害人來嘛那這個時候被害人在警察那邊所做的筆錄就是非常的重要警察官參考的資料所以是不是法務部跟警政署這邊溝通好對於一個東西麻煩在警察的立稿裡面要特別提醒他一定要去問這個被害人\n\n09:15.251 --> 09:21.789\n被告有沒有長期對他有虐待因為申請保護令今天可能是第一次但前面可能已經照三餐打了20年了\n\n09:23.649 --> 09:52.054\n那所以你們在問警方在問筆錄的時候要把這個加進去問而不是就單依一次那一次申請保護令的行為因為那一次申請保護令我以前看那個筆錄啊他就只有附給我那一次的違反那個申請要申請保護令的原因嘛那在我會以為只有那一次而且通常被害人在檢察官在審理這種案子的時候他也不會來啊我們就是看警察的被害人筆錄就我不知道他過往已經被\n\n09:52.594 --> 10:17.308\n痛扁了20年所以這塊是不是請法務部跟警政府這邊溝通好以後警察在問家暴案件的時候能夠就被害人過往的例子也許你不在這一次你要提告的範圍內但是能夠論述清楚讓警察官能夠對於要不要依照家暴法去申請羈押去做判斷請問部長跟副署長這有沒有辦法做到\n\n10:18.148 --> 10:45.612\n跟委員報告事實上那個衛福部就是說在7月14號那個法務部衛福等機關對我有做一個防治性防暴加暴性菌防治小組推動的一個會議事實上委員剛才關心的那個就有建立一個風暴加暴風險評估的一個機制那的確如果說這些的高風險的這些因子就像有時候就有產生加暴情形但是\n\n10:46.292 --> 10:58.766\n希望把這些的相關的資訊給檢察官做一個申請羈押的一個所以可以嗎好可以嘛對不對那麻煩要做到那這個我以後會盯著因為我跟各位報告\n\n11:00.956 --> 11:25.135\n這個東西被害人論述不夠詳細這是我以前實務經驗是如此那我希望將來可以改變好不好我們讓檢察官能夠有更多的資料在這麼短的時間內能夠決定要不要生壓因為這次我都幫檢方講話因為我說我過往的經驗即使這個案子是我審理我也不敢說我一定會生壓因為他第一次被申請家暴案件嘛\n\n11:25.715 --> 11:45.983\n那過往他到底有沒有過我不知道啊然後當事人來可能也沒有講得那麼清楚所以我沒有生壓就出去被害人被追殺死了結果全部人都罵檢方那檢方不是背了這個鍋所以是不是麻煩這一塊能夠補清楚我想這個是我們改善以及保障人民第一步該做的好不好\n\n11:47.424 --> 12:05.535\n這個部分麻煩一定要做我想民眾他不是要去聽你做過什麼啦他只想看你還能做什麼所以你一直跟人民說我們開過什麼會議啊什麼什麼人民不甩你這個他只看你還能做什麼所以我這次聽到那個比如說\n\n12:06.095 --> 12:24.326\n那個丹納斯颱風走了以後然後有一些地方說五天沒有電可以用那你講的再多人民不管他只說我五天沒有電可以用我很生氣我氣政府我人民只會這樣想或是說那個你說好嘉南平原很多地方讓人家去種電嘛很多光電都是\n\n12:25.166 --> 12:48.209\n那個利用嘉南平原結果反而最後缺電最嚴重是他們那他們心裡會不滿嘛他不會去管你跟他說我為了你們做過什麼我電網顧得多好他不會去管這個啦所以我是希望說到底我常聽到幾句話叫做檢討測淨研議永遠是這幾句話但這幾句話的意思就是就是沒有然後就是沒有然後了所以\n\n12:49.349 --> 13:09.637\n這個還是要麻煩你們注意一下那另外就是司法院這次報告只有提到警政署跟衛福部沒有法務部其實這點讓我蠻驚訝因為法務部明明在這個家暴案件裡面是一個很重要的點包括生壓等等那我欸司法院這次怎麼沒有提到法務部所以我看完資料之後我也覺得蠻訝異的是法務部跟司法院這邊對接有問題嗎還是複密\n\n13:20.400 --> 13:48.710\n報告委員我想那個是觀點的問題因為我們提到警政署跟那個主管機關的那個社政這個部分主要是從那個保護令的核發的這個部分也就是我們這次那個主題那那個法務部的部分呢是比較在就是說當他已經就是又呈生了到一個犯罪就是違反家暴罪或者是說違反保護令罪的時候就是才會有跟那個法務部跟檢察官\n\n13:51.051 --> 14:11.842\n我只是說我看報告的時候我覺得很驚訝司法院的報告裡面有提到警政署會服務部但是沒有提到法務部我只是對這個點比較有疑問因為我們是側重那個保護令的那個部分沒關係喔我想今天土城的這個事情喔社會上面是質疑保護令沒有用但是我覺得我自己的實務經驗過往的經驗告訴我其實有它的用處\n\n14:13.142 --> 14:39.411\n絕對有用只是說我們要把不好的地方繼續把它補齊一點尤其是檢察官在生不生壓這個事情上面非常非常的重要那你必須提供給他完整的資料否則他生壓也不會過所以還是要麻煩大家一起能夠給檢方足夠的資料那部長那個法務部長部長我請教一下那個警政署跟衛福部可以先回座\n\n14:41.011 --> 14:57.099\n那個調查官這幾天有個調查官他淪為搜捕手這個事情其實我還蠻訝異的過往去年有檢察官牽涉進詐騙案件有法官直接協助詐欺集團那有更多的律師跑進去參加詐騙集團這幾年\n\n15:00.300 --> 15:20.039\n發生很多但是呢這次讓我比較驚訝的是過往這些司法人員參加詐騙集團他們都是從事高位階的工作可能是幕後的首腦可能是很重要就這一次連最幾層的搜捕手都有調查官去參都有調查官去擔任那其實這個表示\n\n15:21.823 --> 15:36.921\n表示部裡面在這個控管上面出了嚴重的問題因為搜捕手是很低階的耶調官至少一個月八萬塊吧那怎麼會去當搜捕手呢那過往那個檢察官或那個法官他們至少都還是最核心的人啦\n\n15:37.938 --> 16:01.330\n所以這讓我很驚訝我不知道部長你有沒有去思考這個問題在哪裡然後第二個更重要的點是我離開檢方之後我嚴守一個點就是我當年怎麼辦案的技巧以及通訊監察等等的技巧我一律封口不對外說我也不教別人怎麼躲檢方的偵查或躲檢方的監聽我都不教別人這個因為我覺得辦案的know-how\n\n16:01.610 --> 16:21.726\n是一件很重要的事情這也是我對於過去職業的尊重以及我的職業道德但是如果今天調查官他直接加入變成是詐騙集團的搜捕手或車手或是首腦的時候他會把我們檢方調查官他們的偵辦的手法全部告訴這些犯罪集團\n\n16:23.280 --> 16:49.326\n這是國家大災難部長你們有沒有在處理這件事這個的確是非常痛心的一件事情所以這件那個台中地檢的起訴了那調查局這件非常的痛心所以馬上就決議就開考機會一次計兩大過來免職那我想這個是要一介來之絕對不可再有這種的情形尤其是我們執法人員絕對不能去做本本就是要抓的\n\n16:50.546 --> 17:14.812\n絕對沒辦法不能夠去進還有跟加入兆團的這種事情所以這部分我們會當一回事處理好不好這個我們一定會這個我會要求全部的我所屬的機關絕對不能去碰而且有這種要全力來一起來插機我跟部長報告這一次讓我驚訝的是連底層的搜捕手都有調查官要去當\n\n17:16.616 --> 17:45.525\n跟之前完全不一樣之前是那幾個祖賢首腦重大獲利者收不手收一本簿子才多少錢而已啊他跟車手一樣都是最底層的人就既然我們調查官會去擋其實這是一件很嚴重而且國家怎麼了我們的公務體系怎麼了會讓我嚇一跳好不好部長這個很重要的一件事齁那第二個還有第二件事情就是剛剛黃委員有問的那個那個林志傑臉書的事情啊因為\n\n17:45.965 --> 18:11.731\n我會重視這件事情是因為林志傑教授他常常來我們這裡我也認識他他是一個很不錯法學素養很不錯的教授他怎麼會去提到這個說廉政署去認證行政不中立因為我以為的行政中立法他的主管機關是權序部請問一下廉政署有權去認證你有沒有違反行政中立嗎有沒有權\n\n18:14.072 --> 18:36.763\n這個不是廉政署的業管的對所以說這個論述可能有問題喔就是林教授的這個因為我很尊敬他嘛我以前在當檢察官就常常參加一些法學研討會都遇到他他竟然會認為說違反行政中立這個是廉政署認證所以這個還蠻嚴重的這整個是大錯誤啦還是說有修法最近有修法說廉政署可以這樣嗎\n\n18:38.525 --> 18:58.039\n應該沒有嘛目前行政中立法並沒有這樣的一個決定那第二個就是說我也覺得比較奇怪可能要麻煩部長去了解一下為什麼這個林教授他會拿到這個資料我們內部是不是有人洩密如果有的話那才是真正違反行政不中立才是真正違反行政中立法\n\n18:58.860 --> 19:17.086\n好不好就廉政署我們是常任文官嘛我們是事務官我們不能夠把資料提供給人家做政治上面的攻防好不好部長不然以後我們都是法律系畢業嘛這個的確行政中立這是一個文官應該要做的基本的那我想這個是\n\n19:17.786 --> 19:35.002\n不管是廉政署我想各個機關都會去宣導要遵守行政中立所以我跟你講部長我們這邊在座這麼多都法律人我們都法律系畢業法律系不要以後被人家改名叫做政治鬥爭系好不好不要永遠都加入政治鬥爭這個就不好看了\n\n19:37.244 --> 19:56.419\n所以請法務部要去調查一下看到底有沒有人洩密否則為什麼林教授會拿到這個密件他的法律依據是什麼也許他有法律依據可以拿我不知道但是你們要去調查一下為什麼他可以拿到這個密件到底是誰給他的但是你要回覆我們一下到底是怎麼回事還有就是說\n\n19:57.914 --> 20:11.607\n部裡面是不是也要澄清一下認證這件事還有密件可否公開啦不然我跟你講大家鬧轟轟在講這個又是法務部又要背黑鍋了你們是不是應該發個信用稿或請連證署要去澄清這件事情這件事連證署處理的\n\n20:16.252 --> 20:30.782\n處理案件的是廉政署嘛但是廉政署沒有問題我沒有看到問題是林志傑教授寫的文章說廉政署認證違反行政中立嘛那這個東西就會讓我覺得奇怪因為行政中立他是全區部那邊在管的嘛那為什麼\n\n20:31.622 --> 20:58.567\n聯政署可以認證這就是法規上面的不對啊那我不想要法務部被黑鍋所以我今天才會趕快點出來跟部長報告這件事情不要讓某一些人他們有錯誤的觀念覺得法務部或聯政署配合政治人物在那邊亂搞嘛我是為了法務部著想所以法務部是不是要把這件事情趕快釐清一下好不好謝謝那請這部分真的要出來澄清啦然後最後我請教那個複密最後不好意思\n\n20:59.567 --> 21:18.992\n兩分鐘就好不好意思這個週末一直有很多網軍在帶風向他說7月11號三讀通過的那個因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別條例是預算案他說依據憲法70條立法院不能夠增加預算我想請問一下複密這個東西是\n\n21:23.556 --> 21:44.457\n我先講一個啦大一我們都上過法學序論的課啦對不對你也上過嘛中央法規標準法法律可以定名為法律條例通則這四種對不對那我想請問一下條例是不是中央法規標準法第二條所認定的法律的一種是不是\n\n21:45.463 --> 22:07.455\n謝謝委員垂詢因為這邊是在立法院那司法院並不是這個條例的立書館我問你我是請教你大一的法學序論中央法規標準法第二條法律可以定名為法律條律通則四種東西那請問一下條律是不是屬於法律\n\n22:10.789 --> 22:15.451\n這次主要是說有一些狀況有委員出來講了一句很奇妙的話他說這個特別條例的通過要編列預算所以叫特別預算就是預算的一種所以這叫做預算案\n\n22:35.658 --> 22:50.636\n然後我這邊東看西看我覺得預算案跟法律案沒有那麼難分啦因為條例它就屬於法律的一種啦所以這個沒有說所謂的因為這個條例將來政府要編預算所以叫做預算案這個都胡說八道這個委員的法律程度\n\n22:51.537 --> 23:11.831\n我已經是長期不敢恭維了那當然他自己要開記者會他要這樣講我就尊重他的發言權利但是我覺得這法律是完全不及格不然你們現在來打臉我說我哪裡講錯既然審查條例那就是法律案不是預算案立法院有權審查法律案以及預算案這兩個東西都是\n\n23:12.891 --> 23:34.785\n法律規定是立法院可以審查的既然它叫做條例那就是法律案過往也有很多像譬如說老農津貼暫行條例它就是條例所以它是法律案所以當年賴清德要求這個從4000拉到5000塊當年也沒有人說賴清德違憲同樣的理由到今天來變成違憲莫名其妙\n\n23:35.285 --> 23:55.461\n再來議後特別條例發六千塊這個也都是條例所以這個都是當年立法院過的那這個都是法律案我不懂說為什麼到今天條例會變成預算案然後他的解釋更好笑叫做這個條例過了以後政府要編列預算所以這叫預算案如果這個成立之後那過往我跟你講幾十年齁\n\n23:56.542 --> 24:05.148\n有非常多的案子全部違憲而且很多是民進黨完全執政實在通過的條例都會違憲2003年還有2020年都有我查到很多條例\n\n24:12.123 --> 24:30.289\n我覺得很奇怪這個國家已經瘋了連最基本的法律都可以拿出來騙人那我再補充一個所以說昨天那個董保成教授他教憲法的嘛董保成教授就說他一出來講這個就是法律案啊這就不是預算案啊那為什麼會講這個是法律案這個是預算案不能夠\n\n24:31.249 --> 24:42.238\n不能夠通過說違反憲法70條我覺得這段時間我看到行政院也提了一些東西比如行政院說這個依據憲法依據大法官會議解釋264跟391兩號解釋這個不行拜託264跟391去看一下內容\n\n24:48.003 --> 25:03.393\n264跟391舊式預算跟法律案完全無關所以我不知道他引這個幹嘛引這個就是假裝講的好像是字講出來很專業然後來騙人民事實上內容根本跟法律案完全無關不知道在講什麼鬼東西再來行政院長說\n\n25:04.861 --> 25:25.877\n他依據憲法70條以及預算法91條他認為他將來不會編類不去執行我講第一個憲法70條就完全錯誤了因為憲法70條立案完全沒有違反因為我們審的就不是預算案我們並沒有增加預算我們審的是法律案這第一個沒有違反憲法70條第二個有沒有違反預算法91條沒有通知\n\n25:28.123 --> 25:46.758\n行政院他說立法院沒有通知行政院但我跟各位報告7月3號院長召開的協商郭智輝部長親自到這邊來而且還發表說明院長還跟他說謝謝郭部長說得非常清楚那今天是郭部長回去忘了跟院長報告還是郭智輝他就是\n\n25:47.765 --> 26:01.884\n整天在那邊想他從業的事情嗎最基本該向院長報告的是都忘記報告害院長出來講錯話說違反預算法91條請院長總統太院長搞清楚很多事情\n\n26:02.825 --> 26:17.958\n我覺得不能亂講話你如果不知道不能講啊你今天講出來說立法院沒有向行政院說明結果你當天你的部長還來這裡說了一大堆耶還被院長感謝還被立法院長感謝所以\n\n26:19.540 --> 26:29.910\n這國家不能這樣啦不能連院長連行政院院長等級的人都在帶頭騙人都在帶頭說違反預算法91條違憲法70條這個都在騙人這個都不對我想我們還是舊法論法的時代啦那蜂蜜您剛剛說這跟你無關嗎\n\n26:40.677 --> 26:59.396\n好啦那我也不為難你我想可能請你講也不方便啦那我也跟各位報告過往老農津貼暫行條例以及醫後特別預算特別條例那罰六千塊那個其實都是以法例案的方式處理所以拜託有些人不要再騙人好謝謝各位好謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.411,"end":20.628,"text":"我們麻煩衛福部次長然後法務部長還有警政署副署長來 衛福部次長 法務部部長 警政署副署長最後可能再麻煩複密上台複密先休息一下 等一下輪到你的時候再上來"},{"start":23.6,"end":43.865,"text":"好 各位早安我想一開始我還是想要提就是因為這個今天主要是我們談到上禮拜在土城發生的這件事情那我想還是一樣我覺得這個人民安居樂業是政府的義務然後人民免於恐懼這個是憲法"},{"start":46.326,"end":68.144,"text":"要求政府該做到這是人民的基本人權所以你今天讓我們人民在路上都隨時擔心害怕然後社會治安沒有處理好其實這政府自己我覺得是要深刻檢討我想我最前面還要提的就是因為這件事情之後大家社會上面在討論說到底保護令還有沒有用我想保護令其實"},{"start":68.965,"end":83.272,"text":"我自己的觀察他還是有他的一定的效果所以他對於八成的施暴者還是有他的嚇阻作用只是說我們有沒有跟人民宣導清楚譬如說我們有沒有跟他說"},{"start":84.893,"end":103.993,"text":"發生什麼狀況家裡有什麼狀況要趕快報警然後在拿到保護令之前其實警察就可以依據家暴法幫你了我們有沒有跟人民多宣導這個甚至說陪你回去家裡拿東西這個都是警察有權利做的在拿到保護令之後呢對方想要靠近可以怎麼辦其實警察官還可以羈押他"},{"start":105.655,"end":120.331,"text":"這個也要讓人民知道再來呢 你經濟上有困難那你進行了相關訴訟甚至你可以要求對方負擔相關的律師費這個東西我覺得都要讓人民知道而且要讓受虐者他有勇氣趕出來去請求協助我想"},{"start":121.848,"end":147.836,"text":"請各位這個要記在心裡這一定要多宣導啦我們今天宣導不是就是政府都整天花力氣都在宣導罷免然後都沒有人在管這個國家的民生然後人民的安全這樣的政府我覺得很不負責任那剛好那個法務部長也有提到說確實這段時間呢這個違反保護令的案子的數字在上升嘛那剛黃委員也有提到說其實到去年已經4497件了"},{"start":150.097,"end":168.083,"text":"也就是我們這個違反保護令這個家暴的案子其實一直在往上爬那我今天我想要請教一下部長就是說這個案子上個禮拜在土城發生的這個案子我想請問一下到底檢方這邊有沒有依照規定通報"},{"start":171.606,"end":200.162,"text":"這個委員報告齁 這個有依照那個家暴法第六第34條之一有嗎 跟哪些單位通報你知道嗎有跟那個家訪中心跟那個警察機關好 那我再問一下齁 就是那個副署長齁 副署長勤務中心接到這些通報之後他後面有沒有做後續那個查訪或追蹤的動作"},{"start":201.51,"end":229.953,"text":"我跟委員報告我們這個案子接到報案之後我們同仁去現場處理那我們就有依照相關的處理的這個記錄之後我們也協助被害人申請保護令而且也有通報你們是一次性還是有持續追蹤我們有持續告訴被害人如果還有其他的施暴的狀況可以跟我們警察機關報案那次長齁那你們接獲那個地檢署的家暴傳真之後那你們後續的處理機制是一次性還是持續追蹤"},{"start":232.142,"end":244.202,"text":"我們是持續的來追蹤那像我再請教那你們都說是持續追蹤那請問你們的持續追蹤是怎麼樣的狀況下才會算結案這個持續追蹤才結案"},{"start":247.198,"end":256.982,"text":"就備案來說他的案件如果一個是走私法那這個部分我們會力挺陪庭那另外他如果後續還有一些離婚案件我們也會有一些專家來協助以及他之後離婚之後的"},{"start":263.104,"end":283.229,"text":"這個所有的身心復原或者他的這個重返這個我們說正常生活的這種工作社工都會陪伴那一旦到他已經穩定了一段時間我們就會視狀況跟被害人講我們這樣的服務會告一段落謝謝那這個就是我們要讓人民知道就是大家都會持續追蹤嘛比如說一次性問導遊"},{"start":285.389,"end":308.224,"text":"就是去看了一下就走 這個請各位 這個要做到好 那再來我想跟部長請問一下 因為部長其實這段時間 大家都有在批評檢察官嘛就是說檢察官沒有申請羈押 包括媒體 包括民眾那像剛剛衛福部也有提到說 這個是因為檢方沒有羈押所以如果連主管機關都說 這個案子是檢方沒有羈押所以 我跟"},{"start":309.505,"end":324.395,"text":"當然啦我個人覺得啦就是說這個案子我其實從案發到現在我反而是幫檢方說了不少話我說這個東西其實今天就算我去在這麼短的時間內拿到有限的資料你有沒有辦法第一時間判斷他有這個問題"},{"start":325.456,"end":340.321,"text":"這也是一個困難點但是這個也就是我們要去改善的地方就是你能夠提供檢察官有沒有完整的資料讓他能夠在那麼短的時間內要去研判這個人有沒有需要羈押但是呢"},{"start":341.201,"end":367.827,"text":"到底伸不伸壓 這個變成外界對檢方的一個質疑點嘛那我想部長 對於現在社會發生了那麼多案子那很多人都說我們檢方司法的羈押標準不一啦有一些案子大家都覺得這不可能押或過往都沒有押 但最近都會押但是有一些案子大家覺得應該要押 可是呢都沒有押然後反而後面發生了很多問題 我想部長"},{"start":369.229,"end":394.226,"text":"你有沒有辦法去導正這個社會上對於司法羈押標準不一的這個質疑啊你們有沒有什麼作為我想這個是因為我一定也當過檢察官因為每個個案的犯罪情節不一那有相關的事證就譬如台中的違例那個刺殺案違例齁當時外界是質疑說檢察官為什麼不押什麼腳保失誤案那後來專案小組鍥而不捨後來經過幾次的搜索跟約談"},{"start":395.507,"end":410.078,"text":"後來那個人犯有有有羈押羈押申請羈押獲准所以這個是一個浮動性的一個證據的狀態那有沒有合乎到羈押要件一定要合乎到訴訟法裡面要的犯罪嫌疑重大要羈押的原因以及他的必要性嗎"},{"start":410.778,"end":423.815,"text":"所以每個案件都不一樣 說我沒辦法去講說人民不接受啊 對不對我說人民不接受不是我空口嘛就是最近的公布的民調 人與對於司法的信任度其實是不高的我跟部長報 部長應該有看到這些數據嘛"},{"start":426.718,"end":443.799,"text":"人民對司法信任度不高啊然後我們的司法羈押標準又如此的不一很多 就我剛剛說的嘛 很多大家覺得以前從來沒有人押 或以前根本不可能押的案子現在都會押 而且狂押押了以後就一直延押都出不來那有的呢"},{"start":444.795,"end":461.042,"text":"人民覺得生無痛絕 社會痛恨死了 欸 卻都沒事喔所以沒有啦 我跟部長說啦人民對於司法的信任 就是在一個一個案子他們去累積嘛你是往好的方向去累積還是往壞的方向去累積 那就部長您要想辦法解決啊是不是"},{"start":462.995,"end":475.554,"text":"因為這個委員知道這個羈押權是屬於法官嘛那這個有沒有羈押的必要性以及何謂羈押的要件跟原因或者是不是犯罪嫌疑重大這個法官有審酌有的連生壓都沒生壓啊"},{"start":478.338,"end":499.618,"text":"對 所以這個個案每個一個情侶不一樣那這個時候沒有生壓被敗掉說那個案件以後沒辦法我們這個證明了的確棄而不捨下我們就生壓了我點出這個問題就好那因為您是部長人民對司法的信任度要靠您那我們只能點出問題那因為行政權在你手上"},{"start":500.579,"end":524.696,"text":"這必須 你的義務你要把它做好不過呢 針對這個案子我還是有幾個想要提出來的 就是檢察官他在辦理類似的案子的時候他能不能夠把一些重要的東西要考量進去 譬如說被告的心理狀態啦 報復心態有沒有酒飲藥飲啊 然後有情緒障礙或物質濫用這些高風險因子 你有沒有都要提供給檢察官喔然後包括就是說被害人 被害人 因為"},{"start":525.276,"end":553.09,"text":"我們都知道我們在開庭的時候我們常常沒有時間傳被害人來尤其在內勤的時候內勤受理現行犯的時候我們沒有時間請被害人來嘛那這個時候被害人在警察那邊所做的筆錄就是非常的重要警察官參考的資料所以是不是法務部跟警政署這邊溝通好對於一個東西麻煩在警察的立稿裡面要特別提醒他一定要去問這個被害人"},{"start":555.251,"end":561.789,"text":"被告有沒有長期對他有虐待因為申請保護令今天可能是第一次但前面可能已經照三餐打了20年了"},{"start":563.649,"end":592.054,"text":"那所以你們在問警方在問筆錄的時候要把這個加進去問而不是就單依一次那一次申請保護令的行為因為那一次申請保護令我以前看那個筆錄啊他就只有附給我那一次的違反那個申請要申請保護令的原因嘛那在我會以為只有那一次而且通常被害人在檢察官在審理這種案子的時候他也不會來啊我們就是看警察的被害人筆錄就我不知道他過往已經被"},{"start":592.594,"end":617.308,"text":"痛扁了20年所以這塊是不是請法務部跟警政府這邊溝通好以後警察在問家暴案件的時候能夠就被害人過往的例子也許你不在這一次你要提告的範圍內但是能夠論述清楚讓警察官能夠對於要不要依照家暴法去申請羈押去做判斷請問部長跟副署長這有沒有辦法做到"},{"start":618.148,"end":645.612,"text":"跟委員報告事實上那個衛福部就是說在7月14號那個法務部衛福等機關對我有做一個防治性 防暴加暴性菌防治小組推動的一個會議事實上委員剛才關心的那個就有建立一個風暴加暴風險評估的一個機制那的確如果說這些的高風險的這些因子就像有時候就有產生加暴情形但是"},{"start":646.292,"end":658.766,"text":"希望把這些的相關的資訊給檢察官做一個申請羈押的一個所以可以嗎好可以嘛對不對那麻煩要做到那這個我以後會盯著因為我跟各位報告"},{"start":660.956,"end":685.135,"text":"這個東西被害人論述不夠詳細這是我以前實務經驗是如此那我希望將來可以改變好不好我們讓檢察官能夠有更多的資料在這麼短的時間內能夠決定要不要生壓因為這次我都幫檢方講話因為我說我過往的經驗即使這個案子是我審理我也不敢說我一定會生壓因為他第一次被申請家暴案件嘛"},{"start":685.715,"end":705.983,"text":"那過往他到底有沒有過我不知道啊然後當事人來可能也沒有講得那麼清楚所以我沒有生壓就出去被害人被追殺死了結果全部人都罵檢方那檢方不是背了這個鍋所以是不是麻煩這一塊能夠補清楚我想這個是我們改善以及保障人民第一步該做的好不好"},{"start":707.424,"end":725.535,"text":"這個部分麻煩一定要做我想民眾他不是要去聽你做過什麼啦他只想看你還能做什麼所以你一直跟人民說我們開過什麼會議啊什麼什麼人民不甩你這個他只看你還能做什麼所以我這次聽到那個 比如說"},{"start":726.095,"end":744.326,"text":"那個丹納斯颱風走了以後然後有一些地方說五天沒有電可以用那你講的再多 人民不管他只說我五天沒有電可以用我很生氣 我氣政府我人民只會這樣想或是說那個 你說好嘉南平原很多地方讓人家去種電嘛很多光電都是"},{"start":745.166,"end":768.209,"text":"那個利用嘉南平原結果反而最後缺電最嚴重是他們那他們心裡會不滿嘛他不會去管你跟他說我為了你們做過什麼我電網顧得多好他不會去管這個啦所以我是希望說到底我常聽到幾句話叫做檢討 測淨 研議永遠是這幾句話但這幾句話的意思就是就是沒有然後就是沒有然後了所以"},{"start":769.349,"end":789.637,"text":"這個還是要麻煩你們注意一下那另外就是司法院這次報告只有提到警政署跟衛福部沒有法務部其實這點讓我蠻驚訝因為法務部明明在這個家暴案件裡面是一個很重要的點包括生壓等等那我 欸 司法院這次怎麼沒有提到法務部所以我看完資料之後我也覺得蠻訝異的是法務部跟司法院這邊對接有問題嗎還是複密"},{"start":800.4,"end":828.71,"text":"報告委員我想那個是觀點的問題因為我們提到警政署跟那個主管機關的那個社政這個部分主要是從那個保護令的核發的這個部分也就是我們這次那個主題那那個法務部的部分呢是比較在就是說當他已經就是又呈生了到一個犯罪就是違反家暴罪或者是說違反保護令罪的時候就是才會有跟那個法務部跟檢察官"},{"start":831.051,"end":851.842,"text":"我只是說 我看報告的時候 我覺得很驚訝 司法院的報告裡面有提到警政署會服務部 但是沒有提到法務部 我只是對這個點比較有疑問因為我們是側重那個保護令的那個部分沒關係喔 我想今天土城的這個事情喔 社會上面是質疑保護令沒有用但是我覺得我自己的實務經驗 過往的經驗告訴我 其實有它的用處"},{"start":853.142,"end":879.411,"text":"絕對有用只是說我們要把不好的地方繼續把它補齊一點尤其是檢察官在生不生壓這個事情上面非常非常的重要那你必須提供給他完整的資料否則他生壓也不會過所以還是要麻煩大家一起能夠給檢方足夠的資料那部長 那個法務部長部長我請教一下那個警政署跟衛福部可以先回座"},{"start":881.011,"end":897.099,"text":"那個調查官這幾天有個調查官他淪為搜捕手這個事情其實我還蠻訝異的過往去年有檢察官牽涉進詐騙案件有法官直接協助詐欺集團那有更多的律師跑進去參加詐騙集團這幾年"},{"start":900.3,"end":920.039,"text":"發生很多但是呢這次讓我比較驚訝的是過往這些司法人員參加詐騙集團他們都是從事高位階的工作可能是幕後的首腦可能是很重要就這一次連最幾層的搜捕手都有調查官去參都有調查官去擔任那其實這個表示"},{"start":921.823,"end":936.921,"text":"表示部裡面在這個控管上面出了嚴重的問題因為搜捕手是很低階的耶調官至少一個月八萬塊吧那怎麼會去當搜捕手呢那過往那個檢察官或那個法官他們至少都還是最核心的人啦"},{"start":937.938,"end":961.33,"text":"所以這讓我很驚訝我不知道部長你有沒有去思考這個問題在哪裡然後第二個更重要的點是我離開檢方之後我嚴守一個點就是我當年怎麼辦案的技巧以及通訊監察等等的技巧我一律封口不對外說我也不教別人怎麼躲檢方的偵查或躲檢方的監聽我都不教別人這個因為我覺得辦案的know-how"},{"start":961.61,"end":981.726,"text":"是一件很重要的事情這也是我對於過去職業的尊重以及我的職業道德但是如果今天調查官他直接加入變成是詐騙集團的搜捕手或車手或是首腦的時候他會把我們檢方調查官他們的偵辦的手法全部告訴這些犯罪集團"},{"start":983.28,"end":1009.326,"text":"這是國家大災難部長你們有沒有在處理這件事這個的確是非常痛心的一件事情所以這件那個台中地檢的起訴了那調查局這件非常的痛心所以馬上就決議就開考機會一次計兩大過來免職那我想這個是要一介來之絕對不可再有這種的情形尤其是我們執法人員絕對不能去做本本就是要抓的"},{"start":1010.546,"end":1034.812,"text":"絕對沒辦法不能夠去進還有跟加入兆團的這種事情所以這部分我們會當一回事處理好不好這個我們一定會這個我會要求全部的我所屬的機關絕對不能去碰而且有這種要全力來一起來插機我跟部長報告這一次讓我驚訝的是連底層的搜捕手都有調查官要去當"},{"start":1036.616,"end":1065.525,"text":"跟之前完全不一樣 之前是那幾個祖賢首腦重大獲利者收不手 收一本簿子才多少錢而已啊他跟車手一樣都是最底層的人 就既然我們調查官會去擋 其實這是一件很嚴重 而且國家怎麼了我們的公務體系怎麼了 會讓我嚇一跳好不好 部長這個很重要的一件事齁那第二個 還有第二件事情就是剛剛黃委員有問的那個那個林志傑臉書的事情啊 因為"},{"start":1065.965,"end":1091.731,"text":"我會重視這件事情是因為林志傑教授他常常來我們這裡我也認識他他是一個很不錯法學素養很不錯的教授他怎麼會去提到這個說廉政署去認證行政不中立因為我以為的行政中立法他的主管機關是權序部請問一下廉政署有權去認證你有沒有違反行政中立嗎有沒有權"},{"start":1094.072,"end":1116.763,"text":"這個不是廉政署的業管的對 所以說這個論述可能有問題喔就是林教授的這個 因為我很尊敬他嘛我以前在當檢察官就常常參加一些法學研討會都遇到他他竟然會認為說違反行政中立這個是廉政署認證所以這個還蠻嚴重的 這整個是大錯誤啦還是說有修法 最近有修法說廉政署可以這樣嗎"},{"start":1118.525,"end":1138.039,"text":"應該沒有嘛目前行政中立法並沒有這樣的一個決定那第二個就是說我也覺得比較奇怪可能要麻煩部長去了解一下為什麼這個林教授他會拿到這個資料我們內部是不是有人洩密如果有的話那才是真正違反行政不中立才是真正違反行政中立法"},{"start":1138.86,"end":1157.086,"text":"好不好就廉政署我們是常任文官嘛我們是事務官我們不能夠把資料提供給人家做政治上面的攻防好不好部長不然以後我們都是法律系畢業嘛這個的確行政中立這是一個文官應該要做的基本的那我想這個是"},{"start":1157.786,"end":1175.002,"text":"不管是廉政署我想各個機關都會去宣導要遵守行政中立所以我跟你講部長我們這邊在座這麼多都法律人我們都法律系畢業法律系不要以後被人家改名叫做政治鬥爭系好不好不要永遠都加入政治鬥爭這個就不好看了"},{"start":1177.244,"end":1196.419,"text":"所以請法務部要去調查一下看到底有沒有人洩密否則為什麼林教授會拿到這個密件他的法律依據是什麼也許他有法律依據可以拿我不知道但是你們要去調查一下為什麼他可以拿到這個密件到底是誰給他的但是你要回覆我們一下到底是怎麼回事還有就是說"},{"start":1197.914,"end":1211.607,"text":"部裡面是不是也要澄清一下認證這件事還有密件可否公開啦不然我跟你講大家鬧轟轟在講這個又是法務部又要背黑鍋了你們是不是應該發個信用稿或請連證署要去澄清這件事情這件事連證署處理的"},{"start":1216.252,"end":1230.782,"text":"處理案件的是廉政署嘛但是廉政署沒有問題我沒有看到問題是林志傑教授寫的文章說廉政署認證違反行政中立嘛那這個東西就會讓我覺得奇怪因為行政中立他是全區部那邊在管的嘛那為什麼"},{"start":1231.622,"end":1258.567,"text":"聯政署可以認證這就是法規上面的不對啊那我不想要法務部被黑鍋所以我今天才會趕快點出來跟部長報告這件事情不要讓某一些人他們有錯誤的觀念覺得法務部或聯政署配合政治人物在那邊亂搞嘛我是為了法務部著想所以法務部是不是要把這件事情趕快釐清一下好不好謝謝那請這部分真的要出來澄清啦然後最後我請教那個複密最後不好意思"},{"start":1259.567,"end":1278.992,"text":"兩分鐘就好 不好意思這個週末一直有很多網軍在帶風向他說7月11號三讀通過的那個因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別條例是預算案他說依據憲法70條立法院不能夠增加預算我想請問一下 複密 這個東西是"},{"start":1283.556,"end":1304.457,"text":"我先講一個啦 大一我們都上過法學序論的課啦 對不對你也上過嘛 中央法規標準法 法律可以定名為法 律 條例 通則 這四種對不對那我想請問一下 條例是不是中央法規標準法第二條所認定的法律的一種 是不是"},{"start":1305.463,"end":1327.455,"text":"謝謝委員垂詢 因為這邊是在立法院 那司法院並不是這個條例的立書館我問你 我是請教你大一的法學序論中央法規標準法第二條 法律可以定名為法 律 條律 通則四種東西那請問一下 條律是不是屬於法律"},{"start":1330.789,"end":1335.451,"text":"這次主要是說有一些狀況有委員出來講了一句很奇妙的話他說這個特別條例的通過要編列預算所以叫特別預算就是預算的一種所以這叫做預算案"},{"start":1355.658,"end":1370.636,"text":"然後我這邊東看西看 我覺得預算案跟法律案沒有那麼難分啦因為條例它就屬於法律的一種啦所以 這個沒有說所謂的因為這個條例 將來政府要編預算 所以叫做預算案這個都胡說八道 這個委員的法律程度"},{"start":1371.537,"end":1391.831,"text":"我已經是長期不敢恭維了那當然他自己要開記者會他要這樣講我就尊重他的發言權利但是我覺得這法律是完全不及格不然你們現在來打臉我說我哪裡講錯既然審查條例那就是法律案不是預算案立法院有權審查法律案以及預算案這兩個東西都是"},{"start":1392.891,"end":1414.785,"text":"法律規定是立法院可以審查的 既然它叫做條例 那就是法律案過往也有很多 像譬如說老農津貼暫行條例它就是條例 所以它是法律案所以當年賴清德要求這個從4000拉到5000塊當年也沒有人說賴清德違憲同樣的理由到今天來變成違憲 莫名其妙"},{"start":1415.285,"end":1435.461,"text":"再來議後特別條例發六千塊這個也都是條例所以這個都是當年立法院過的那這個都是法律案我不懂說為什麼到今天條例會變成預算案然後他的解釋更好笑叫做這個條例過了以後政府要編列預算所以這叫預算案如果這個成立之後那過往我跟你講幾十年齁"},{"start":1436.542,"end":1445.148,"text":"有非常多的案子全部違憲而且很多是民進黨完全執政實在通過的條例都會違憲2003年還有2020年都有 我查到很多條例"},{"start":1452.123,"end":1470.289,"text":"我覺得很奇怪這個國家已經瘋了連最基本的法律都可以拿出來騙人那我再補充一個所以說昨天那個董保成教授他教憲法的嘛董保成教授就說他一出來講這個就是法律案啊這就不是預算案啊那為什麼會講這個是法律案這個是預算案不能夠"},{"start":1471.249,"end":1482.238,"text":"不能夠通過說違反憲法70條我覺得這段時間我看到行政院也提了一些東西比如行政院說這個依據憲法依據大法官會議解釋264跟391兩號解釋這個不行拜託264跟391去看一下內容"},{"start":1488.003,"end":1503.393,"text":"264跟391舊式預算跟法律案完全無關所以我不知道他引這個幹嘛引這個就是假裝講的好像是字講出來很專業然後來騙人民事實上內容根本跟法律案完全無關不知道在講什麼鬼東西再來行政院長說"},{"start":1504.861,"end":1525.877,"text":"他依據憲法70條以及預算法91條他認為他將來不會編類不去執行我講第一個憲法70條就完全錯誤了因為憲法70條立案完全沒有違反因為我們審的就不是預算案我們並沒有增加預算我們審的是法律案這第一個沒有違反憲法70條第二個有沒有違反預算法91條沒有通知"},{"start":1528.123,"end":1546.758,"text":"行政院他說立法院沒有通知行政院但我跟各位報告7月3號院長召開的協商郭智輝部長親自到這邊來而且還發表說明院長還跟他說謝謝郭部長說得非常清楚那今天是郭部長回去忘了跟院長報告還是郭智輝他就是"},{"start":1547.765,"end":1561.884,"text":"整天在那邊想他從業的事情嗎最基本該向院長報告的是都忘記報告 害院長出來講錯話說違反預算法91條請院長 總統太院長搞清楚很多事情"},{"start":1562.825,"end":1577.958,"text":"我覺得不能亂講話 你如果不知道不能講啊你今天講出來說立法院沒有向行政院說明結果你當天 你的部長還來這裡說了一大堆耶還被院長感謝 還被立法院長感謝 所以"},{"start":1579.54,"end":1589.91,"text":"這國家不能這樣啦 不能連院長 連行政院院長等級的人都在帶頭騙人都在帶頭說違反預算法91條 違憲法70條 這個都在騙人 這個都不對我想我們還是舊法論法的時代啦那 蜂蜜 您剛剛說這跟你無關嗎"},{"start":1600.677,"end":1619.396,"text":"好啦 那我也不為難你 我想可能請你講也不方便啦那我也跟各位報告過往老農津貼暫行條例以及醫後特別預算 特別條例那罰六千塊 那個其實都是以法例案的方式處理所以拜託 有些人不要再騙人好 謝謝各位好 謝謝委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":482,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（9時35分）麻煩衛福部次長，然後法務部部長，還有警政署副署長。"],["主席：請衛福部次長、法務部部長、警政署副署長。"],["吳委員宗憲：最後可能再麻煩副秘上臺。"],["主席：OK，好。","副秘先休息一下，等一下輪到你的時候再上來。"],["吳委員宗憲：各位早安。一開始我還是要先提，今天主要是談到上禮拜在土城發生的這件事情，我想還是一樣，我覺得人民安居樂業是政府的義務，人民免於恐懼是憲法要求政府該做到的，這是人民的基本人權，所以今天讓人民在路上隨時都在擔心、害怕，社會治安沒有處理好，其實這是政府自己要深刻檢討的。我還要提的就是，因為這件事情之後，社會上面大家在討論到底保護令還有沒有用，保護令其實我自己的觀察，它還是有一定的效果，它對於八成的施暴者還是有嚇阻作用，只是我們有沒有跟人民宣導清楚，譬如有沒有跟他說發生什麼狀況、家裡有什麼狀況要趕快報警，然後在拿到保護令之前，其實警察就可以依據家暴法幫你了，這點我們有沒有跟人民多宣導？甚至陪你回去家裡拿東西，這都是警察有權力做的。在拿到保護令之後，對方想要靠近可以怎麼辦？其實檢察官還可以羈押他，這也要讓人民知道。再來，你經濟上有困難，你進行相關訴訟時，甚至可以要求對方負擔相關的律師費，這個我覺得都要讓人民知道，而且要讓受虐者有勇氣敢出來請求協助。我想請各位要記在心裡，一定要多宣導，今天不是政府整天都在花力氣宣導罷免，然後都沒有人在管國家民生、人民安全，這樣的政府我覺得很不負責任。","剛剛法務部長有提到確實這段時間違反保護令的案件數在上升，黃委員也有提到，截至去年已經有4,497件了，也就是違反保護令的家暴案其實一直在往上爬，今天我想要請教一下部長，上個禮拜在土城發生了這個案子，到底檢方有沒有依照規定通報？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，有依照家暴法第三十四條之一即時通報。"],["吳委員宗憲：跟哪些單位通報，你知道嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有跟家防中心及警察機關。"],["吳委員宗憲：再問一下副署長，副署長，勤務中心接到這些通報之後，有沒有做後續查訪或追蹤的動作？"],["廖副署長美鈴：跟委員報告，這個案子我們接到報案之後，同仁去現場處理，依照相關的處理紀錄之後，我們也會協助被害人聲請保護令，而且也有通報。"],["吳委員宗憲：你們是一次性還是會持續追蹤？"],["廖副署長美鈴：我們有持續告訴被害人，如果還有其他施暴的狀況，可以跟警察機關報案。"],["吳委員宗憲：次長，你們接獲地檢署的家暴傳真之後，你們後續的處理機制是一次性還是持續追蹤？"],["呂次長建德：我們是持續追蹤。"],["吳委員宗憲：我再請教，你們都說是持續追蹤，請問你們的持續追蹤是怎麼樣的狀況下才會算結案？"],["張司長秀鴛：就被害人來說，他的案件如果……一個是走司法，這個部分我們會陪庭，另外他如果後續還有離婚案件，我們也會有一些專家來協助，以及他離婚之後所有的身心復原，或者他重返正常生活的工作，社工都會陪伴，一旦到他已經穩定了一段時間，我們就會視狀況跟被害人講，我們這樣的服務會告一段落。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝。這就是我們要讓人民知道大家都會持續追蹤嘛！"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是說一次性「搵豆油」，就是去看了一下就走，這個請各位要做到。"],["呂次長建德：當然。"],["吳委員宗憲：再來，我跟部長請問一下，部長，其實這段時間大家都有在批評檢察官，就是說檢察官沒有聲請羈押，包括媒體、包括民眾，像剛剛衛福部也有提到是因為檢方沒有羈押，所以如果連主管機關都說這個案子是檢方沒有羈押，我跟部長講，當然我個人覺得這個案子從案發到現在，我反而是幫檢方說了不少話，我說其實今天就算我去，在這麼短的時間內拿到有限的資料，有沒有辦法第一時間判斷他有問題，這也是一個困難點，但是這個也就是我們要去改善的地方，就是你能不能提供檢察官完整的資料，讓他能夠在那麼短的時間內去研判這個人有沒有需要羈押，但是到底聲不聲押確實已經變成外界對檢方的一個質疑點。","部長，對於現在社會發生了那麼多案子，很多人都說檢方司法的羈押標準不一，有一些案子大家都覺得這不可能押或過往都沒有押，但是最近都會押，也有一些案子大家覺得應該要押，可是都沒有押，然後反而後面發生了很多問題。部長，你有沒有辦法導正社會上對於司法羈押標準不一的質疑？你們有沒有什麼作為？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這個是因為……委員，你也當過檢察官，因為每個個案的犯罪情節不一，有相關的事證，譬如臺中的自殺案為例，當時外界也是質疑檢察官為什麼不押，為什麼交保15萬。但專案小組鍥而不捨，經過幾次的搜索跟約談，後來對人犯有聲請羈押獲准，所以這個是一個浮動性的證據狀態。有沒有合乎羈押要件？一定要合乎訴訟法裡面，要有犯罪嫌疑重大，要有羈押原因，以及它的必要性嘛！所以每個案件都不一樣，我也沒辦法去講說……"],["吳委員宗憲：但是人民不接受，對不對？我說人民不接受不是我空口，是最近公布的民調，我跟部長報告，人民對於司法的信任度其實是不高的，部長應該有看到這些數據。人民對司法信任度不高，然後我們的司法羈押標準又如此不一，就我剛剛說的，很多大家覺得以前從來沒有人押，或以前根本不可能押的案子，現在都會押，而且狂押，押了以後就一直延押，都出不來。有的人民覺得深惡痛絕，社會痛恨死的，卻都沒事。我跟部長說啦，人民對於司法的信任就是從一個、一個案子去累積的，你是要往好的方向去累積，還是要往壞的方向去累積，部長要想辦法解決啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員也知道，羈押權是屬於法官的，有沒有羈押的必要性，以及合不合乎羈押的要件跟原因，或者是不是犯罪嫌疑重大，法官有審酌的……"],["吳委員宗憲：檢察官有的連聲押都沒聲押啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，每個個案的情形都不一樣，那個時候沒有聲押不代表那個案件以後沒辦法……"],["吳委員宗憲：這樣喔！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們這個也證明了，在鍥而不捨下，我們也聲押了。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，我點出這個問題就好，因為您是部長，人民對司法的信任度要靠您，我們只能點出問題，因為行政權在你手上，這是你的義務，你必須要把它做好。不過，針對這個案子我還是有幾個想要提出來的，就是檢察官在辦理類似案子的時候，他能不能夠把一些重要的東西考量進去？譬如被告的心理狀態、報復心態、有沒有酒癮、藥癮，然後有情緒障礙或物質濫用等這些高風險因子，都要提供給檢察官，包括被害人，因為我們都知道在開庭的時候常常沒有時間傳被害人來，尤其內勤在受理現行犯的時候，我們沒有時間請被害人來，這個時候被害人在警察那邊所做的筆錄就是檢察官參考非常重要的資料，所以是不是法務部跟警政署溝通好，麻煩在警察的例稿裡面要特別提醒，他一定要去問被害人，被告對他有沒有長期虐待的行為，因為可能今天是第一次聲請保護令，但前面可能已經照三餐打了20年了，所以警方在問筆錄的時候要把這個部分加進去問，而不是單就那一次聲請保護令的行為。","因為我以前看筆錄，就只有附給我那一次要聲請保護令的原因，這樣我會以為只有那一次，而且通常被害人在檢察官審理這種案子的時候也不會來，我們就是看警察的被害人筆錄，結果我不知道他過往已經被痛扁了20年。所以這一塊是不是請法務部跟警政署這邊溝通好，以後警察在問家暴案件的時候，能夠就被害人過往的例子加進去問，也許不在這一次他要提告的範圍內，但是能夠論述清楚，讓檢察官能夠對於要不要依照家暴法聲請羈押去做判斷，請問部長跟副署長，這有沒有辦法做到？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，事實上，在7月14號法務部、衛福部等機關，有召開家庭暴力及性侵害防治推動小組會議。針對委員剛才關心的，就有建立一個家暴風險評估的機制，的確，這些高風險的因子有時候就有參考家暴情形，但是希望把這些相關的資訊提供給檢察官做聲請羈押的……"],["吳委員宗憲：所以可以嘛，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個可以。"],["吳委員宗憲：麻煩要做到，這個我以後會盯著，因為我跟各位報告，被害人論述不夠詳細，我以前的實務經驗是如此，我希望將來可以改變，好不好？我們讓檢察官能夠有更多的資料，在這麼短的時間內能夠決定要不要聲押。這次我都幫檢方講話，因為以我過往的經驗，即使這個案子是我審理的，我也不敢說我一定會聲押，因為他是第一次被聲請家暴案件，但是過往他到底有沒有過，我不知道，當事人來可能也沒有講得那麼清楚，所以我沒有聲押，結果出去被害人被追殺死了，全部的人都罵檢方，檢方不就背了這個鍋？所以這一塊是不是能夠麻煩補清楚？我想這個是我們改善以及保障人民第一步該做的，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：這個部分麻煩一定要做，我想民眾不是要去聽你做過什麼，他只想看你還能做什麼，所以你一直跟人民說你們開過什麼會議，什麼什麼的，人民不甩你這個，他只看你還能做什麼。所以我這次聽到，譬如丹娜絲颱風走了以後，有一些地方說5天沒有電可以用，你講再多，人民不管，他只說：「我5天沒有電可以用，我很生氣，我氣政府！」人民只會這樣想，或是說嘉南平原有很多地方讓人家去種電，很多光電都是利用嘉南平原，結果反而最後缺電最嚴重的是他們，那他們心裡會不滿嘛，他不會去管你跟他說：「我為了你們做過什麼，我電網顧得多好。」他不會去管這個啦！到立法院我常聽到的幾句話叫做檢討、策進、研議，永遠是這幾句話，但這幾句話的意思就是「然後就沒有然後了」，所以這個還是要麻煩你們注意一下。","另外，司法院這次的報告只有提到警政署跟衛福部，沒有法務部，其實這點讓我滿驚訝的，因為法務部明明在家暴案件裡面是一個很重要的點，包括聲押等等，司法院這次怎麼沒有提到法務部？所以我看完資料之後也覺得滿訝異的，是法務部跟司法院這邊對接有問題嗎？請副秘。"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，我想那個是觀點的問題，因為我們提到警政署跟社政主管機關，主要是從保護令核發的這個部分，也就是我們這次的主題。法務部的部分比較是在於當他已經又層升了到犯罪，就是違反家暴罪，或者是違反保護令罪的時候，才會有跟法務部、跟檢察官相關的這些議題。"],["吳委員宗憲：好吧，我只是說我看報告的時候就覺得很驚訝，因為司法院的報告裡面有提到警政署、衛福部，但是沒有提到法務部，我只是對這個點比較有疑問。"],["王副秘書長梅英：因為我們是側重保護令的部分。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想今天土城的這個事情，社會上面是質疑保護令沒有用，但是我覺得我過往的實務經驗告訴我，其實有它的用處，絕對有用，只是我們要繼續把不好的地方補齊一點，尤其是檢察官在聲不聲押這個事情上面，非常非常的重要，你必須提供給他完整的資料，否則他聲押也不會過，所以還是要麻煩大家能夠一起給檢方足夠的資料。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：警政署跟衛福部可以先回座。我請教一下法務部長，這幾天有個調查官淪為收簿手，這個事情其實我還滿訝異的。去年有檢察官牽涉詐騙案件、有法官直接協助詐騙集團、有更多的律師跑去參加詐騙集團，這幾年發生很多。但是這次讓我比較驚訝的是，過往這些司法人員參加詐騙集團都是從事高位階的工作，可能是幕後的首腦，可能是很重要的成員。結果這一次連最基層的收簿手都有調查官去擔任，其實這個表示部裡面在控管上面出了嚴重的問題，因為收簿手是很低階的，調查官1個月至少8萬塊吧，怎麼會去當收簿手呢？過往檢察官或法官至少都還是最核心的人，所以這讓我很驚訝，我不知道部長有沒有去思考這個問題在哪裡？","第二個更重要的點是，我離開檢方之後嚴守一個點，就是我當年怎麼辦案的技巧，以及通訊監察等等技巧，我一律封口不對外說，我也不教別人怎麼躲檢方的偵查或躲檢方的監聽，我都不教別人這個，因為我覺得辦案的know-how是一件很重要的事情，這也是我對於過去職業的尊重以及我的職業道德。但是如果今天調查官直接加入，變成詐騙集團的收簿手、車手，或是首腦的時候，他會把我們檢方、調查官的偵辦手法全部告訴這些犯罪集團，這是國家的大災難！部長，你們有沒有在處理這件事？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這的確是令人非常痛心的一件事情，所以這件臺中地檢起訴了，調查局對這件事也非常的痛心，所以馬上就決議開考績會，一次記兩大過免職。我想這個是要引以為戒，絕對不可再有這種情形，尤其是我們執法人員，絕對不能去做，我們本來就是要抓的，絕對不能夠有加入詐團的這種事情，所以這部分我們會……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，當一回事處理，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們一定會，我會要求全部的、所屬的機關絕對不能去碰，而且有這種的話要全力一起來查緝，嫌犯一定要揪出來。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟部長報告，這一次讓我驚訝的是連底層的收簿手都有調查官要去當，跟之前完全不一樣，之前是那幾個主嫌、首腦、重大獲利者，但收簿手收一本簿子才多少錢而已，他跟車手一樣都是最底層的人，結果竟然我們調查官會去當，其實這是一件很嚴重的事，國家怎麼了？我們的公務體系怎麼了？會讓我嚇一跳，好不好？部長，這個是很重要的一件事。","還有第二件事情，剛剛黃委員有問林志潔臉書的事情，我會重視這件事情是因為林志潔教授常常來我們這裡，我也認識他，他是一個法學素養很不錯的教授，但他怎麼會去提到說廉政署去認證行政不中立？因為我以為的行政中立法，它的主管機關是銓敘部耶！請問一下廉政署有權去認證你有沒有違反行政中立嗎？我請教部長，它有沒有權？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不是廉政署業管的權責。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，所以說這個論述可能有問題喔！因為我很尊敬林教授嘛，我以前當檢察官常常參加一些法學研討會都遇到他，但他竟然認為違反行政中立是廉政署認證，所以這個還蠻嚴重的，整個是大錯誤啦！還是說有修法？最近有修法說廉政署可以這樣嗎？應該沒有嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前行政中立法並沒有這樣的處理。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，第二個，我也覺得比較奇怪，可能要麻煩部長去了解一下，為什麼林教授會拿到這個資料？我們內部是不是有人洩密？如果有的話，那才是真正違反行政中立法，好不好？廉政署是常任文官嘛，我們是事務官，我們不能夠把資料提供給人家去做政治上面的攻防，部長，好不好？不然以後……我們都是法律系畢業嘛……"],["鄭部長銘謙：的確，行政中立是一個文官應該要做的基本的……我想不管是廉政署，各個機關都會去宣導要遵守行政中立，這個都會做的。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，部長，所以我跟你講，我們在座這麼多法律人，我們都法律系畢業，不要法律系以後被人家改名叫做政治鬥爭系，好不好？不要永遠都加入政治鬥爭，這個就不好看了啦！所以請法務部要去調查一下，看看到底有沒有人洩密，否則為什麼林教授會拿到這個密件，好不好？他的法律依據是什麼？也許他有法律依據可以拿，我不知道，但是你們要去調查一下，為什麼他可以拿到這個密件，好嗎？到底是誰給他的？但是你要回復我們到底是怎麼回事。還有，部裡面是不是也要澄清一下認證這件事以及密件可否公開啦？不然我跟你講大家鬧轟轟在講這個，又是法務部要背黑鍋了，你們是不是應該發個新聞稿，或請廉政署要去澄清這件事情？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這件是廉政署處理的……"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，處理案件的是廉政署嘛，但是廉政署沒有問題，我沒有看到問題，是林志潔教授寫的文章說廉政署認證違反行政中立嘛，這個東西就會讓我覺得奇怪，因為行政中立是銓敘部在管的，為什麼廉政署可以認證？這就是法規上面不對啊！而我不想讓法務部背黑鍋，所以我今天才會趕快點出來跟部長報告有這件事情，不要讓某一些人他們有錯誤的觀念，覺得法務部或廉政署配合政治人物在亂搞嘛，我是為了法務部著想，所以法務部是不是要把這件事情趕快釐清一下，好不好？謝謝，這部分真的要出來澄清啦！","最後，我請教副秘，不好意思再2分鐘就好。因為這個周末一直有很多網軍在帶風向，說7月11號三讀通過的「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別條例」是預算案，說依據憲法第七十條，立法院不能夠增加預算。我想請問一下副秘，我先講一個，大一我們都上過法學緒論的課，對不對？你也上過嘛！中央法規標準法規定「法律得定名為法、律、條例或通則」這四種，對不對？我想請問一下，「條例」是不是中央法規標準法第二條所認定的法律的一種？是不是？"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員垂詢，這是在立法院……司法院並不是這個條例的主管機關……"],["吳委員宗憲：不是啦，我是請教你大一的法學緒論啦！中央法規標準法第二條：「法律得定名為法、律、條例或通則」四種東西，請問一下條例是不是屬於法律？","好，算了，我看你可能不敢講，這是中央法規標準法第二條，大家都可以去翻啦！大一就念過了啦！"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：主要是這次有一些狀況，有委員出來講了一句很奇妙的話，他說特別條例的通過要編列預算，所以特別預算就是預算的一種，所以這叫做預算案。但我這邊東看西看，我覺得預算案跟法律案沒有那麼難分啦！因為條例就屬於法律的一種啦！所以沒有所謂的因為這個條例將來政府要編預算，所以叫做預算案，這些都胡說八道，這個委員的法律程度我已經是長期不敢恭維了，當然他自己要開記者會這樣講，我就尊重他的發言權利，但是我覺得這個法律是完全不及格，不然你們現在來打臉我說我哪裡講錯。既然審查條例，那就是法律案，不是預算案，立法院有權審查法律案以及預算案，這兩個東西都是法律規定，是立法院可以審查的，既然叫做條例那就是法律案。","過往也有很多，譬如說老農津貼暫行條例，它就是條例，所以是法律案，所以當年賴清德要求從4,000拉到5,000塊，也沒有人說賴清德違憲啦！同樣的理由到今天來變成違憲，這莫名其妙。再來，疫後特別條例發6,000塊，這個也都是條例，都是當年立法院過的，都是法律案，我不懂為什麼到今天條例會變成預算案，然後他的解釋更好笑，說這個條例過了以後政府要編列預算，所以這叫預算案。如果這個成立的話，那我跟你講，過往幾十年有非常多案子全部違憲，而且很多是民進黨完全執政時代通過的條例，都會違憲！2003年和2020年都有，我查到很多條例，所以我覺得很奇怪，這個國家已經瘋了，連最基本的法律都可以拿出來騙人。我再補充一個，董保城教授他是教憲法的嘛，昨天他出來講了一句話說這個就是法律案，就不是預算案啊！那為什麼會講這個是預算案不能夠通過，說違反憲法第七十條？","這段時間我看到行政院也提了一些東西，比如行政院說依據大法官會議解釋第264號跟第391號兩號解釋，這個不行。拜託！去看一下第264號跟第391號解釋的內容，第264號跟第391號就是預算，跟法律案完全無關，所以我不知道他引這幹嘛？引這個就是假裝、講得好像釋字講出來很專業來騙人民，事實上內容根本跟法律案完全無關，不知道在講什麼鬼東西。再來，行政院長說依據憲法第七十條以及預算法第九十一條，他認為他將來不會編列且不去執行，我想第一個，引憲法第七十條就完全錯誤了，因為憲法第七十條立法院完全沒有違反，因為我們審的就不是預算案，我們並沒有增加預算，我們審的是法律案，這第一個，沒有違反憲法第七十條。第二個，有沒有違反預算法第九十一條，沒有通知行政院？他說立法院沒有通知行政院，但我跟各位報告，7月3號韓院長召開的協商，郭智輝部長親自到這邊來而且還發表說明，院長還跟他說：「謝謝郭部長的說明，非常清楚」，因此今天是郭部長回去忘了跟院長報告？還是郭智輝整天在那邊想「崇越」的事情，最基本該向院長報告的事都忘記報告，害院長出來講錯話，說違反預算法第九十一條？請卓榮泰院長搞清楚，很多事情我覺得不能亂講話，你如果不知道就不能講啊！你今天講出來說立法院沒有向行政院說明，結果當天你的部長來這裡說了一大堆，還被立法院長感謝，所以國家不能這樣啦！不能連行政院院長等級的人都在帶頭騙人，都在帶頭說違反預算法第九十一條、違反憲法第七十條，這個都在騙人，這個都不對！","我想我們還是就法論法的時代，副秘書長剛剛說這個跟你無關嘛！好啦，那我也不為難你，我想你可能也不方便講。我也跟各位報告，過往老農津貼暫行條例以及疫後振興特別條例發6,000塊，其實都是以法律案的方式處理，所以拜託，有一些人不要再騙了。謝謝各位。"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳宗憲委員。剛剛吳委員提到，一個調查官竟然跑去當收簿手，怎麼會幹這麼低階的事情，我想警政署應該知道理由。你們如果真的有去追這個案子的話，警政署就聽得懂我在說什麼。","好，我們接下來請召委回復主席位。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：謝謝。我們下一位請林倩綺委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":144,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-22","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","林倩綺","王義川","翁曉玲","沈發惠","羅智強","李坤城","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","陳培瑜","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2025-07-16"],"gazette_id":"1146701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部部長、內政部警政署署長、教育部、勞動部、內\n政部移民署率所屬相關單位列席就「保護令不是萬能的?!如何避免憾事再度發生。家庭暴力防治\n法保護令核發，研析配套措施之檢討與精進，並提供相關統計數據」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146701_00002"}}}