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\"end\": 515.579, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 515.579, \"end\": 515.719, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 515.719, \"end\": 515.999, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 515.999, \"end\": 516.119, \"score\": 0.728}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 516.119, \"end\": 516.299, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 516.299, \"end\": 516.419, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"濟\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 516.419, \"end\": 516.439, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 520.714, \"end\": 524.077, \"text\": \"看到你們的說明我們接下來要跟阿拉斯加買天然氣那這個價格也並不算便宜那現在呢一個議題呢是在討論說我們要撥補一千億給台電那既然撥補一千億給台電那我們接下來要買的是更貴的LNG\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 520.714, \"end\": 520.774, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 520.774, \"end\": 520.794, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 520.794, \"end\": 520.814, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 520.814, \"end\": 520.834, \"score\": 0.112}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 520.834, \"end\": 520.934, \"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 520.934, \"end\": 521.094, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 521.094, \"end\": 521.194, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 521.194, \"end\": 521.234, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 521.234, \"end\": 521.335, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 521.335, \"end\": 521.355, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"阿\", \"start\": 521.355, \"end\": 521.375, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"拉\", \"start\": 521.375, \"end\": 521.415, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"斯\", \"start\": 521.415, \"end\": 521.555, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 521.555, \"end\": 521.575, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"買\"}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 521.575, \"end\": 521.595, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 521.595, \"end\": 521.675, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"氣\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 521.675, \"end\": 521.695, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"價\"}, {\"word\": \"格\", \"start\": 521.695, \"end\": 521.715, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 521.715, \"end\": 521.735, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"並\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 521.735, \"end\": 521.755, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 521.755, \"end\": 521.775, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"便\", \"start\": 521.775, \"end\": 521.795, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"宜\", \"start\": 521.795, \"end\": 521.815, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 521.815, \"end\": 521.835, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 521.835, \"end\": 521.855, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 521.855, \"end\": 522.015, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 522.015, \"end\": 522.035, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 522.035, \"end\": 522.055, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 522.055, \"end\": 522.075, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 522.075, \"end\": 522.415, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 522.415, \"end\": 522.475, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 522.475, \"end\": 522.515, \"score\": 0.496}, {\"word\": \"撥\"}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 522.515, \"end\": 522.555, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"千\", \"start\": 522.555, \"end\": 522.635, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"億\"}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 522.635, \"end\": 522.676, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 522.676, \"end\": 522.696, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"既\", \"start\": 522.696, \"end\": 522.776, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 522.776, \"end\": 522.796, \"score\": 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{\"word\": \"便\", \"start\": 609.972, \"end\": 610.272, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"宜\", \"start\": 610.272, \"end\": 610.292, \"score\": 0.762}]}, {\"start\": 610.692, \"end\": 624.668, \"text\": \"便宜多少我想我今天不需要在這個質詢上面跟大家說詳細的數字那大家都是知道的所以呢好我們今天採購澳洲的這個天然氣比採購阿拉斯加的天然氣還要貴的情況之下那\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"便\", \"start\": 610.692, \"end\": 610.812, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"宜\", \"start\": 610.812, \"end\": 610.932, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 610.932, \"end\": 611.133, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 611.133, \"end\": 611.273, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 611.273, \"end\": 611.373, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 611.373, \"end\": 611.533, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 611.533, \"end\": 611.673, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 611.673, \"end\": 611.813, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 611.813, \"end\": 611.994, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 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\"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 618.341, \"end\": 619.302, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"採\"}, {\"word\": \"購\"}, {\"word\": \"澳\", \"start\": 619.302, \"end\": 619.562, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"洲\", \"start\": 619.562, \"end\": 619.762, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 619.762, \"end\": 620.143, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 620.143, \"end\": 620.303, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 620.303, \"end\": 620.984, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"氣\"}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 620.984, \"end\": 621.584, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"採\"}, {\"word\": \"購\"}, {\"word\": \"阿\", \"start\": 621.584, \"end\": 621.745, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"拉\", \"start\": 621.745, \"end\": 621.985, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"斯\", \"start\": 621.985, \"end\": 622.065, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 622.065, \"end\": 622.225, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 622.225, \"end\": 622.365, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 622.365, \"end\": 622.526, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 622.526, \"end\": 622.946, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"氣\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 622.946, \"end\": 623.366, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"貴\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 623.366, \"end\": 623.507, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 623.507, \"end\": 623.907, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 623.907, \"end\": 624.127, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 624.127, \"end\": 624.648, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 624.648, \"end\": 624.668, \"score\": 0.388}]}, {\"start\": 625.729, \"end\": 643.624, \"text\": \"如何去減少可能的虧損因為呢不管今天你是中油或是台電如果這個財務黑洞越來越大那不管今天補貼多少錢都沒有用它就是一個黑洞比如說像是台電來講我們已經補貼了三千億了但是仍然漲了三次電價加上產業漲了四次電價\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 625.729, \"end\": 625.989, \"score\": 0.719}, {\"word\": \"何\", 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{\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 636.138, \"end\": 636.258, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 636.258, \"end\": 636.378, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 636.378, \"end\": 636.498, \"score\": 0.694}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 636.498, \"end\": 636.799, \"score\": 0.681}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"黑\", \"start\": 636.799, \"end\": 636.999, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"洞\", \"start\": 636.999, \"end\": 637.459, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 637.459, \"end\": 637.579, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 637.579, \"end\": 637.98, \"score\": 0.786}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 637.98, \"end\": 638.22, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 638.22, \"end\": 638.4, \"score\": 0.568}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 638.4, \"end\": 639.201, \"score\": 0.73}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 639.201, \"end\": 639.461, \"score\": 0.728}, {\"word\": 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00:01:06,312\n跟委員報告這個經費在指的是我們當初4月11號院長去這個立法院做專案報告的時候因為我們有預先做評估台灣面對美國的對等關稅我們以低中高三種情境來評估那高的情境就是我們現在所面臨可能是32%的關稅的情況之下那我們請農工部會去評估好所以你認為在\n\n4\n00:01:08,733 --> 00:01:33,295\n原本的三十幾趴的匯率的這個對不起三十幾趴的這個關稅的這個狀況之下支持產業方案只需要九百多億喔好那接下來站在國人的角度呢對於政府在關稅上的談判可以說是非常焦慮的在我這裡也收到很多包含中小企業跟農民的陳情喔那政府在關稅上的談判可以說非常不透明\n\n5\n00:01:33,755 --> 00:01:57,305\n相对于比如说像是日本来讲那让我们的民众企业是很不知所措的比如说我举例以日本来说他们的政府人员呢包含赴美谈判的次数谈判涉及的东西范围红线基本态度以及美方对日方开出的条件谈判难度都有公开的让日本的民众产业知道我再举个例子\n\n6\n00:01:57,685 --> 00:02:01,409\n日本堅持全面協議強調汽車關稅必須納入談判範圍以及農產品上面對稻米的進口問題上面堅守底線所以我想要問一下台灣方面我們有沒有哪一些底線是可以公開告訴大眾我們現在就是要堅守不放的\n\n7\n00:02:19,926 --> 00:02:45,624\n好謝謝委員跟委員回報像每個國家實際上跟美國都有相關的國際談判的保密的義務所以呢台灣也是有同樣的義務那日本沒有嗎所以像日本韓國實際上他們也都沒有揭露太多的他沒有揭露但他有講到的是說哪一些談判是他們底線他要告訴他的國民他要告訴這些產業我們一定會保護你\n\n8\n00:02:46,725 --> 00:02:57,514\n對那我們台灣的部分我們台灣的底線我提到了就是我們國家跟產業的利益糧食安全跟國民健康糧食安全跟國民健康好那我們現在請農業部好不好\n\n9\n00:03:04,932 --> 00:03:23,317\n那麼剛才談到糧食我們可以看到最近美國陸續給出新的關稅稅率有些國家他是有巨大的妥協在換取到稅率的降低以美國跟印尼最新達成的協議為例印尼首次向美國開放超過2.8億人口的市場並且承諾採購150億美元的能源45億美元的農產品以及50架的波音飛機\n\n10\n00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:50,868\n還有包含印尼美國對印尼的出口即將是免關稅無關稅避雷的那類似這樣子的情況所以讓他們的這個關稅的原稅率能夠下降那以此呢可以推測這個談判的美國在意的六大重點比如關稅與配額非關稅跟貿易障礙原產地的原則保證採購跟保證投資勞工跟環境保護以及保證國防預算\n\n11\n00:04:00,672 --> 00:04:16,079\n那我想問農業部這個部分我之前有向外交部質詢過有關於為了鞏固跟巴拉圭的這個外交關係所以我們把巴拉圭的關稅豬肉降到零關稅當時就有非常多的豬農來抗議所以當時林佳龍部長也承諾會再去跟豬農溝通因為這個影響到豬農非常大的利益\n\n12\n00:04:25,743 --> 00:04:37,929\n所以我想要請問一下就是我們在我們在談判的部分那美方這裡有談到先前公開的這個訊息有談到第一個希望針對這個這個萊克多巴胺的豬肉美國進口的這個豬肉還有牛肉\n\n13\n00:04:44,412 --> 00:04:56,418\n不再進行產地的標示第二個部分呢是關於基因改造食品的進口第三個部分呢是農產品的零關稅所以我想要請教一下包含是我們談判代表跟農業部請問這三項我們會堅持嗎\n\n14\n00:05:01,256 --> 00:05:14,834\n謝謝委員關心也支持台灣農業那我想就農業部的立場其實是清楚的台灣跟美國的農產品貿易其實是非常密切的台灣是美國第八大的農產品出口國對但是我們是賺他們的錢對不對\n\n15\n00:05:16,997 --> 00:05:27,889\n美國是我們第一大農產品的出口國所以雙方的農業貿易是非常密切的我知道我知道但是我們的進出口我們的這個互動有分成我們賺他們的錢跟他們賺我們的錢你剛剛所說的是我們賺他的錢對吧\n\n16\n00:05:31,994 --> 00:05:54,023\n他是我們的第一大貿易出口國我們出口到那邊是8.9億對嘛所以他們一直希望說能夠平衡所以我們賣給對方出口越多他們對我們就會越不滿就會越希望能夠降低這個稅率甚至能夠開放到零稅率所以我剛剛的這個問題非常的清楚就是三件事情\n\n17\n00:05:54,343 --> 00:06:22,078\n第一個基因改造食品的進入第二個針對美國的豬肉跟牛肉不用再標示第三個農產品上面尤其對於我們台灣養豬業者可以說非常多是否會對美國提出零關稅這三點我沒有要求就是你們要告訴我們說是不是要這麼做我是問這三點上面我們的談判貿易代表我們的農業部有沒有堅持\n\n18\n00:06:23,619 --> 00:06:46,446\n就臺灣農業部來講我絕對只是支持我們國內代表那我要問一下談判代表這三點我們臺灣是否堅持到底我想我們臺灣有哪些敏感產業敏感產品我們很清楚臺灣的產業利益所在所以我想我們會堅持產業有更佳利益這三點是嗎我剛剛提的這三點我再提一次第一個叫做呢我們的這個\n\n19\n00:06:48,007 --> 00:07:06,247\n基因改造食品的进入第二个叫做我们的猪肉牛肉从美方进口的标识要取消第三点叫做我们的农产品包含是猪肉牛肉对美国实施零关税这三点请问我们的贸易代表会不会坚持到底\n\n20\n00:07:06,977 --> 00:07:33,554\n我想委員提出來的是美方的利益所在所以美方在談判當中他當然都可能會觸及到這些議題我問的是我國的立場我不在意美方我不在意美方的立場因為他們已經公佈了我在意的是我們有沒有這條底線去守護我們的農民因為現在的農民可以說是非常非常的緊張所以像是日本他們就有直接的告訴民眾說會在這個部分堅守底線那請問台灣有沒有這樣子對農民的承諾\n\n21\n00:07:37,130 --> 00:07:48,156\n我想我們的農業部我們的行政團隊對我們的農民對我們的產業都有承諾就是我們一定會捍衛產業的好所以我可以理解成這三項我們在談判後我們不會讓他實行可以嗎\n\n22\n00:07:50,951 --> 00:08:10,165\n我想這個都涉及到最後的共識了我們的底線在哪邊?要不要保護農民?保護農民是必然的但我剛剛講的這三點就是農民最在意的事情農民最在意的事情能不能夠被保護今天這就是我問您的問題\n\n23\n00:08:11,570 --> 00:08:36,439\n是對所以我想我們一定會堅守產業國家利益OK好所以這三點我希望到時候在整個關稅出來之後不是讓農民付出剛剛我以上三點的代價我們現在是在公開的一個質詢的一個舞台上面那我也希望說今天的這個會議紀錄下面接下來我們看到的這三點不會發生那謝謝農業部那接下來我想要請這個經濟部\n\n24\n00:08:40,714 --> 00:08:44,077\n看到你們的說明我們接下來要跟阿拉斯加買天然氣那這個價格也並不算便宜那現在呢一個議題呢是在討論說我們要撥補一千億給台電那既然撥補一千億給台電那我們接下來要買的是更貴的LNG\n\n25\n00:09:07,214 --> 00:09:29,862\n貴的這個天然氣那勢必沒有辦法讓台電買到更便宜的電的時候那我們的這個財務黑洞只會繼續而已那請問台電你們的了解台電對於這個增加買LNG的預算會導致台電的經營狀況可能越來越差這件事情有什麼樣的看法\n\n26\n00:09:31,117 --> 00:09:45,898\n謝謝委員關心首先就阿拉斯加部分我們在今年的三月份是有中油跟阿拉斯加有簽訂一個合作的意向書那阿拉斯加這邊是委託一個民間的公司在做所以我們現在是有\n\n27\n00:09:46,418 --> 00:10:10,292\n跟阿拉斯加來這間民間公司在做相關的協議所以這個部分呢應該是以中油的業務為主的一樣嘛中油的這個油價然後再來就會反映到電價上面嘛這個東西油跟電它們其實是有關係的嘛那我要講的事情是比如我們先前跟澳洲採購了許多的天然氣它相對的價格就是比阿拉斯加來得便宜\n\n28\n00:10:10,692 --> 00:10:24,668\n便宜多少我想我今天不需要在這個質詢上面跟大家說詳細的數字那大家都是知道的所以呢好我們今天採購澳洲的這個天然氣比採購阿拉斯加的天然氣還要貴的情況之下那\n\n29\n00:10:25,729 --> 00:10:43,624\n如何去減少可能的虧損因為呢不管今天你是中油或是台電如果這個財務黑洞越來越大那不管今天補貼多少錢都沒有用它就是一個黑洞比如說像是台電來講我們已經補貼了三千億了但是仍然漲了三次電價加上產業漲了四次電價\n\n30\n00:10:45,706 --> 00:11:00,641\n那如果因為我們採購的價格更高昂了所以呢相關的包含中油跟台電的他的整個規劃的這個品質他們的這個財政上面來說是雪上加霜的話那是不是以後每年要一千億兩千億永遠都看不到盡頭\n\n31\n00:11:03,263 --> 00:11:22,012\n所以我想問一下在這個關稅的這個壁壘上面美國他提供的這個關稅的要求上包含我們已經跟阿拉斯加簽了相關的合約那簽了之後後續可能帶來的額外的成本我們要用什麼樣的方式讓他能夠賺錢讓他能夠損益平衡讓政府讓人民不需要用納稅錢來撲貼\n\n32\n00:11:29,762 --> 00:11:44,627\n報告委員這個有關於這個台電的撥補一千億的部分未獲大院通過行政院已經發布新聞稿表示非常的遺憾因為這個是我們過去在跟產業界做了二十幾場的座談會是反應\n\n33\n00:11:46,107 --> 00:11:54,455\n以前的台電是能夠賺錢的現在的台電是連年虧損的所以本來台電就應該要先去檢討要如何讓這個產業讓台電能夠停止虧損有相關的方案我們才有辦法拿納稅人的錢去撥補你不能說我們每次需要的時候撥補一千億、兩千億、三千億但仍然漲電價啊\n\n34\n00:12:10,310 --> 00:12:12,711\n這次經濟部它也講啦就是說呢如果撥補之後不能告訴大家說我保證不會漲電價這是民眾覺得非常不公的事情嘛所以我要講的是過去的台電它能夠賺錢現在的台電不斷虧損再加上您剛剛講的中油\n\n35\n00:12:29,059 --> 00:12:53,849\n那未來要去採購更加的昂貴相對於澳洲來講更貴的這個阿拉斯加的LNG我想問的是要如何改善這樣子的一個體質讓中油跟台電能夠不要有虧損的黑洞那此時當然就不再需要用人民的納稅錢來撥補這就是對台電對中油最好的方式請問我們目前有解決方案了嗎\n\n36\n00:12:54,637 --> 00:13:14,311\n報告委員,其實之所以會有虧損最主要的原因是因為從2022年開始,惡霧戰爭導致國際燃料的價格...你講得非常好,因為總統的說法是說是因為COVID-19,事實上就是因為惡霧戰爭,所以剛才你也講出了正確的答案,而我們賴清德總統講的是完全錯誤的。\n\n37\n00:13:16,613 --> 00:13:32,085\n那所以因為時間的關係所以我在這裡只是希望建議不管是在中油不管是在台電這些漲幅非常劇烈的變化一定要先想出一個方案是讓中油的體質台電的體質能夠讓它轉虧為盈那這個時候我們才能討論說那要如何的去撥普然後如何的去協助否則永遠都在撥普這件事情我覺得國人是難以接受的\n\n38\n00:13:46,095 --> 00:13:58,502\n所以希望經濟部回去針對這個整個台電中油的體質要如何維持它的損益平衡甚至像以前一樣能夠賺錢再做出一些努力那未來我們可以聽到相關的專案報告以上謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1031\t8457\t謝謝主席那我們先請這個行政院經貿辦公室的副總談判代表 嚴代表\n14056\t40368\t我想先请问一下您刚刚在回答其他委员的问题的时候那我听到您说产业支持方案你们编列预算是大概900多亿左右但是我很好奇你们都还不知道谈判的最后结果以及各个产业要付出什么样的代价那怎么就会已经规划出来支持方案只需要900多亿呢这个经费是怎么样规划出来的呀\n41537\t66312\t跟委員報告這個經費在指的是我們當初4月11號院長去這個立法院做專案報告的時候因為我們有預先做評估台灣面對美國的對等關稅我們以低中高三種情境來評估那高的情境就是我們現在所面臨可能是32%的關稅的情況之下那我們請農工部會去評估好所以你認為在\n68733\t93295\t原本的三十幾趴的匯率的這個 對不起三十幾趴的這個關稅的這個狀況之下支持產業方案只需要九百多億喔好 那接下來站在國人的角度呢對於政府在關稅上的談判可以說是非常焦慮的在我這裡也收到很多包含中小企業跟農民的陳情喔那政府在關稅上的談判可以說非常不透明\n93755\t117305\t相对于比如说像是日本来讲那让我们的民众企业是很不知所措的比如说我举例以日本来说他们的政府人员呢包含赴美谈判的次数谈判涉及的东西范围红线基本态度以及美方对日方开出的条件谈判难度都有公开的让日本的民众产业知道我再举个例子\n117685\t121409\t日本堅持全面協議強調汽車關稅必須納入談判範圍以及農產品上面對稻米的進口問題上面堅守底線所以我想要問一下台灣方面我們有沒有哪一些底線是可以公開告訴大眾我們現在就是要堅守不放的\n139926\t165624\t好 謝謝委員 跟委員回報像每個國家 實際上跟美國都有相關的國際談判的保密的義務所以呢 台灣也是有同樣的義務那日本沒有嗎所以像日本 韓國 實際上他們也都沒有揭露太多的他沒有揭露 但他有講到的是說哪一些談判是他們底線他要告訴他的國民 他要告訴這些產業我們一定會保護你\n166725\t177514\t對 那我們台灣的部分我們台灣的底線我提到了就是我們國家跟產業的利益糧食安全跟國民健康糧食安全跟國民健康好 那我們現在請農業部好不好\n184932\t203317\t那麼剛才談到糧食我們可以看到最近美國陸續給出新的關稅稅率有些國家他是有巨大的妥協在換取到稅率的降低以美國跟印尼最新達成的協議為例印尼首次向美國開放超過2.8億人口的市場並且承諾採購150億美元的能源45億美元的農產品以及50架的波音飛機\n212760\t230868\t還有包含印尼美國對印尼的出口即將是免關稅無關稅避雷的那類似這樣子的情況所以讓他們的這個關稅的原稅率能夠下降那以此呢可以推測這個談判的美國在意的六大重點比如關稅與配額非關稅跟貿易障礙原產地的原則保證採購跟保證投資勞工跟環境保護以及保證國防預算\n240672\t256079\t那我想問農業部這個部分我之前有向外交部質詢過有關於為了鞏固跟巴拉圭的這個外交關係所以我們把巴拉圭的關稅豬肉降到零關稅當時就有非常多的豬農來抗議所以當時林佳龍部長也承諾會再去跟豬農溝通因為這個影響到豬農非常大的利益\n265743\t277929\t所以我想要請問一下就是我們在我們在談判的部分那美方這裡有談到先前公開的這個訊息有談到第一個希望針對這個這個萊克多巴胺的豬肉美國進口的這個豬肉還有牛肉\n284412\t296418\t不再進行產地的標示第二個部分呢是關於基因改造食品的進口第三個部分呢是農產品的零關稅所以我想要請教一下包含是我們談判代表跟農業部請問這三項我們會堅持嗎\n301256\t314834\t謝謝委員關心也支持台灣農業那我想就農業部的立場其實是清楚的台灣跟美國的農產品貿易其實是非常密切的台灣是美國第八大的農產品出口國對但是我們是賺他們的錢對不對\n316997\t327889\t美國是我們第一大農產品的出口國所以雙方的農業貿易是非常密切的我知道我知道但是我們的進出口我們的這個互動有分成我們賺他們的錢跟他們賺我們的錢你剛剛所說的是我們賺他的錢對吧\n331994\t354023\t他是我們的第一大貿易出口國我們出口到那邊是8.9億對嘛所以他們一直希望說能夠平衡所以我們賣給對方出口越多他們對我們就會越不滿就會越希望能夠降低這個稅率甚至能夠開放到零稅率所以我剛剛的這個問題非常的清楚就是三件事情\n354343\t382078\t第一個基因改造食品的進入第二個針對美國的豬肉跟牛肉不用再標示第三個農產品上面尤其對於我們台灣養豬業者可以說非常多是否會對美國提出零關稅這三點我沒有要求就是你們要告訴我們說是不是要這麼做我是問這三點上面我們的談判貿易代表我們的農業部有沒有堅持\n383619\t406446\t就臺灣農業部來講 我絕對只是支持我們國內代表那我要問一下談判代表這三點 我們臺灣是否堅持到底我想我們臺灣有哪些敏感產業 敏感產品我們很清楚臺灣的產業利益所在所以我想我們會堅持產業有更佳利益這三點 是嗎我剛剛提的這三點 我再提一次第一個叫做呢 我們的這個\n408007\t426247\t基因改造食品的进入第二个叫做我们的猪肉牛肉从美方进口的标识要取消第三点叫做我们的农产品包含是猪肉牛肉对美国实施零关税这三点请问我们的贸易代表会不会坚持到底\n426977\t453554\t我想委員提出來的是美方的利益所在所以美方在談判當中他當然都可能會觸及到這些議題我問的是我國的立場我不在意美方我不在意美方的立場因為他們已經公佈了我在意的是我們有沒有這條底線去守護我們的農民因為現在的農民可以說是非常非常的緊張所以像是日本他們就有直接的告訴民眾說會在這個部分堅守底線那請問台灣有沒有這樣子對農民的承諾\n457130\t468156\t我想我們的農業部我們的行政團隊對我們的農民對我們的產業都有承諾就是我們一定會捍衛產業的好所以我可以理解成這三項我們在談判後我們不會讓他實行可以嗎\n470951\t490165\t我想這個都涉及到最後的共識了我們的底線在哪邊?要不要保護農民?保護農民是必然的但我剛剛講的這三點就是農民最在意的事情農民最在意的事情能不能夠被保護今天這就是我問您的問題\n491570\t516439\t是 對 所以我想我們一定會堅守產業國家利益OK 好 所以這三點我希望到時候在整個關稅出來之後不是讓農民付出剛剛我以上三點的代價我們現在是在公開的一個質詢的一個舞台上面那我也希望說今天的這個會議紀錄下面接下來我們看到的這三點不會發生那謝謝農業部那接下來我想要請這個經濟部\n520714\t524077\t看到你們的說明我們接下來要跟阿拉斯加買天然氣那這個價格也並不算便宜那現在呢一個議題呢是在討論說我們要撥補一千億給台電那既然撥補一千億給台電那我們接下來要買的是更貴的LNG\n547214\t569862\t貴的這個天然氣那勢必沒有辦法讓台電買到更便宜的電的時候那我們的這個財務黑洞只會繼續而已那請問台電你們的了解台電對於這個增加買LNG的預算會導致台電的經營狀況可能越來越差這件事情有什麼樣的看法\n571117\t585898\t謝謝委員關心首先就阿拉斯加部分我們在今年的三月份是有中油跟阿拉斯加有簽訂一個合作的意向書那阿拉斯加這邊是委託一個民間的公司在做所以我們現在是有\n586418\t610292\t跟阿拉斯加來這間民間公司在做相關的協議所以這個部分呢應該是以中油的業務為主的一樣嘛中油的這個油價然後再來就會反映到電價上面嘛這個東西油跟電它們其實是有關係的嘛那我要講的事情是比如我們先前跟澳洲採購了許多的天然氣它相對的價格就是比阿拉斯加來得便宜\n610692\t624668\t便宜多少我想我今天不需要在這個質詢上面跟大家說詳細的數字那大家都是知道的所以呢好我們今天採購澳洲的這個天然氣比採購阿拉斯加的天然氣還要貴的情況之下那\n625729\t643624\t如何去減少可能的虧損因為呢不管今天你是中油或是台電如果這個財務黑洞越來越大那不管今天補貼多少錢都沒有用它就是一個黑洞比如說像是台電來講我們已經補貼了三千億了但是仍然漲了三次電價加上產業漲了四次電價\n645706\t660641\t那如果因為我們採購的價格更高昂了所以呢相關的包含中油跟台電的他的整個規劃的這個品質他們的這個財政上面來說是雪上加霜的話那是不是以後每年要一千億兩千億永遠都看不到盡頭\n663263\t682012\t所以我想問一下在這個關稅的這個壁壘上面美國他提供的這個關稅的要求上包含我們已經跟阿拉斯加簽了相關的合約那簽了之後後續可能帶來的額外的成本我們要用什麼樣的方式讓他能夠賺錢讓他能夠損益平衡讓政府讓人民不需要用納稅錢來撲貼\n689762\t704627\t報告委員這個有關於這個台電的撥補一千億的部分未獲大院通過行政院已經發布新聞稿表示非常的遺憾因為這個是我們過去在跟產業界做了二十幾場的座談會是反應\n706107\t714455\t以前的台電是能夠賺錢的現在的台電是連年虧損的所以本來台電就應該要先去檢討要如何讓這個產業讓台電能夠停止虧損有相關的方案我們才有辦法拿納稅人的錢去撥補你不能說我們每次需要的時候撥補一千億、兩千億、三千億但仍然漲電價啊\n730310\t732711\t這次經濟部它也講啦就是說呢如果撥補之後不能告訴大家說我保證不會漲電價這是民眾覺得非常不公的事情嘛所以我要講的是過去的台電它能夠賺錢現在的台電不斷虧損再加上您剛剛講的中油\n749059\t773849\t那未來要去採購更加的昂貴相對於澳洲來講更貴的這個阿拉斯加的LNG我想問的是要如何改善這樣子的一個體質讓中油跟台電能夠不要有虧損的黑洞那此時當然就不再需要用人民的納稅錢來撥補這就是對台電對中油最好的方式請問我們目前有解決方案了嗎\n774637\t794311\t報告委員,其實之所以會有虧損最主要的原因是因為從2022年開始,惡霧戰爭導致國際燃料的價格...你講得非常好,因為總統的說法是說是因為COVID-19,事實上就是因為惡霧戰爭,所以剛才你也講出了正確的答案,而我們賴清德總統講的是完全錯誤的。\n796613\t812085\t那所以因為時間的關係所以我在這裡只是希望建議不管是在中油不管是在台電這些漲幅非常劇烈的變化一定要先想出一個方案是讓中油的體質台電的體質能夠讓它轉虧為盈那這個時候我們才能討論說那要如何的去撥普然後如何的去協助否則永遠都在撥普這件事情我覺得國人是難以接受的\n826095\t838502\t所以希望經濟部回去針對這個整個台電中油的體質要如何維持它的損益平衡甚至像以前一樣能夠賺錢再做出一些努力那未來我們可以聽到相關的專案報告以上 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席那我們先請這個行政院經貿辦公室的副總談判代表 嚴代表\n我想先请问一下您刚刚在回答其他委员的问题的时候那我听到您说产业支持方案你们编列预算是大概900多亿左右但是我很好奇你们都还不知道谈判的最后结果以及各个产业要付出什么样的代价那怎么就会已经规划出来支持方案只需要900多亿呢这个经费是怎么样规划出来的呀\n跟委員報告這個經費在指的是我們當初4月11號院長去這個立法院做專案報告的時候因為我們有預先做評估台灣面對美國的對等關稅我們以低中高三種情境來評估那高的情境就是我們現在所面臨可能是32%的關稅的情況之下那我們請農工部會去評估好所以你認為在\n原本的三十幾趴的匯率的這個 對不起三十幾趴的這個關稅的這個狀況之下支持產業方案只需要九百多億喔好 那接下來站在國人的角度呢對於政府在關稅上的談判可以說是非常焦慮的在我這裡也收到很多包含中小企業跟農民的陳情喔那政府在關稅上的談判可以說非常不透明\n相对于比如说像是日本来讲那让我们的民众企业是很不知所措的比如说我举例以日本来说他们的政府人员呢包含赴美谈判的次数谈判涉及的东西范围红线基本态度以及美方对日方开出的条件谈判难度都有公开的让日本的民众产业知道我再举个例子\n日本堅持全面協議強調汽車關稅必須納入談判範圍以及農產品上面對稻米的進口問題上面堅守底線所以我想要問一下台灣方面我們有沒有哪一些底線是可以公開告訴大眾我們現在就是要堅守不放的\n好 謝謝委員 跟委員回報像每個國家 實際上跟美國都有相關的國際談判的保密的義務所以呢 台灣也是有同樣的義務那日本沒有嗎所以像日本 韓國 實際上他們也都沒有揭露太多的他沒有揭露 但他有講到的是說哪一些談判是他們底線他要告訴他的國民 他要告訴這些產業我們一定會保護你\n對 那我們台灣的部分我們台灣的底線我提到了就是我們國家跟產業的利益糧食安全跟國民健康糧食安全跟國民健康好 那我們現在請農業部好不好\n那麼剛才談到糧食我們可以看到最近美國陸續給出新的關稅稅率有些國家他是有巨大的妥協在換取到稅率的降低以美國跟印尼最新達成的協議為例印尼首次向美國開放超過2.8億人口的市場並且承諾採購150億美元的能源45億美元的農產品以及50架的波音飛機\n還有包含印尼美國對印尼的出口即將是免關稅無關稅避雷的那類似這樣子的情況所以讓他們的這個關稅的原稅率能夠下降那以此呢可以推測這個談判的美國在意的六大重點比如關稅與配額非關稅跟貿易障礙原產地的原則保證採購跟保證投資勞工跟環境保護以及保證國防預算\n那我想問農業部這個部分我之前有向外交部質詢過有關於為了鞏固跟巴拉圭的這個外交關係所以我們把巴拉圭的關稅豬肉降到零關稅當時就有非常多的豬農來抗議所以當時林佳龍部長也承諾會再去跟豬農溝通因為這個影響到豬農非常大的利益\n所以我想要請問一下就是我們在我們在談判的部分那美方這裡有談到先前公開的這個訊息有談到第一個希望針對這個這個萊克多巴胺的豬肉美國進口的這個豬肉還有牛肉\n不再進行產地的標示第二個部分呢是關於基因改造食品的進口第三個部分呢是農產品的零關稅所以我想要請教一下包含是我們談判代表跟農業部請問這三項我們會堅持嗎\n謝謝委員關心也支持台灣農業那我想就農業部的立場其實是清楚的台灣跟美國的農產品貿易其實是非常密切的台灣是美國第八大的農產品出口國對但是我們是賺他們的錢對不對\n美國是我們第一大農產品的出口國所以雙方的農業貿易是非常密切的我知道我知道但是我們的進出口我們的這個互動有分成我們賺他們的錢跟他們賺我們的錢你剛剛所說的是我們賺他的錢對吧\n他是我們的第一大貿易出口國我們出口到那邊是8.9億對嘛所以他們一直希望說能夠平衡所以我們賣給對方出口越多他們對我們就會越不滿就會越希望能夠降低這個稅率甚至能夠開放到零稅率所以我剛剛的這個問題非常的清楚就是三件事情\n第一個基因改造食品的進入第二個針對美國的豬肉跟牛肉不用再標示第三個農產品上面尤其對於我們台灣養豬業者可以說非常多是否會對美國提出零關稅這三點我沒有要求就是你們要告訴我們說是不是要這麼做我是問這三點上面我們的談判貿易代表我們的農業部有沒有堅持\n就臺灣農業部來講 我絕對只是支持我們國內代表那我要問一下談判代表這三點 我們臺灣是否堅持到底我想我們臺灣有哪些敏感產業 敏感產品我們很清楚臺灣的產業利益所在所以我想我們會堅持產業有更佳利益這三點 是嗎我剛剛提的這三點 我再提一次第一個叫做呢 我們的這個\n基因改造食品的进入第二个叫做我们的猪肉牛肉从美方进口的标识要取消第三点叫做我们的农产品包含是猪肉牛肉对美国实施零关税这三点请问我们的贸易代表会不会坚持到底\n我想委員提出來的是美方的利益所在所以美方在談判當中他當然都可能會觸及到這些議題我問的是我國的立場我不在意美方我不在意美方的立場因為他們已經公佈了我在意的是我們有沒有這條底線去守護我們的農民因為現在的農民可以說是非常非常的緊張所以像是日本他們就有直接的告訴民眾說會在這個部分堅守底線那請問台灣有沒有這樣子對農民的承諾\n我想我們的農業部我們的行政團隊對我們的農民對我們的產業都有承諾就是我們一定會捍衛產業的好所以我可以理解成這三項我們在談判後我們不會讓他實行可以嗎\n我想這個都涉及到最後的共識了我們的底線在哪邊?要不要保護農民?保護農民是必然的但我剛剛講的這三點就是農民最在意的事情農民最在意的事情能不能夠被保護今天這就是我問您的問題\n是 對 所以我想我們一定會堅守產業國家利益OK 好 所以這三點我希望到時候在整個關稅出來之後不是讓農民付出剛剛我以上三點的代價我們現在是在公開的一個質詢的一個舞台上面那我也希望說今天的這個會議紀錄下面接下來我們看到的這三點不會發生那謝謝農業部那接下來我想要請這個經濟部\n看到你們的說明我們接下來要跟阿拉斯加買天然氣那這個價格也並不算便宜那現在呢一個議題呢是在討論說我們要撥補一千億給台電那既然撥補一千億給台電那我們接下來要買的是更貴的LNG\n貴的這個天然氣那勢必沒有辦法讓台電買到更便宜的電的時候那我們的這個財務黑洞只會繼續而已那請問台電你們的了解台電對於這個增加買LNG的預算會導致台電的經營狀況可能越來越差這件事情有什麼樣的看法\n謝謝委員關心首先就阿拉斯加部分我們在今年的三月份是有中油跟阿拉斯加有簽訂一個合作的意向書那阿拉斯加這邊是委託一個民間的公司在做所以我們現在是有\n跟阿拉斯加來這間民間公司在做相關的協議所以這個部分呢應該是以中油的業務為主的一樣嘛中油的這個油價然後再來就會反映到電價上面嘛這個東西油跟電它們其實是有關係的嘛那我要講的事情是比如我們先前跟澳洲採購了許多的天然氣它相對的價格就是比阿拉斯加來得便宜\n便宜多少我想我今天不需要在這個質詢上面跟大家說詳細的數字那大家都是知道的所以呢好我們今天採購澳洲的這個天然氣比採購阿拉斯加的天然氣還要貴的情況之下那\n如何去減少可能的虧損因為呢不管今天你是中油或是台電如果這個財務黑洞越來越大那不管今天補貼多少錢都沒有用它就是一個黑洞比如說像是台電來講我們已經補貼了三千億了但是仍然漲了三次電價加上產業漲了四次電價\n那如果因為我們採購的價格更高昂了所以呢相關的包含中油跟台電的他的整個規劃的這個品質他們的這個財政上面來說是雪上加霜的話那是不是以後每年要一千億兩千億永遠都看不到盡頭\n所以我想問一下在這個關稅的這個壁壘上面美國他提供的這個關稅的要求上包含我們已經跟阿拉斯加簽了相關的合約那簽了之後後續可能帶來的額外的成本我們要用什麼樣的方式讓他能夠賺錢讓他能夠損益平衡讓政府讓人民不需要用納稅錢來撲貼\n報告委員這個有關於這個台電的撥補一千億的部分未獲大院通過行政院已經發布新聞稿表示非常的遺憾因為這個是我們過去在跟產業界做了二十幾場的座談會是反應\n以前的台電是能夠賺錢的現在的台電是連年虧損的所以本來台電就應該要先去檢討要如何讓這個產業讓台電能夠停止虧損有相關的方案我們才有辦法拿納稅人的錢去撥補你不能說我們每次需要的時候撥補一千億、兩千億、三千億但仍然漲電價啊\n這次經濟部它也講啦就是說呢如果撥補之後不能告訴大家說我保證不會漲電價這是民眾覺得非常不公的事情嘛所以我要講的是過去的台電它能夠賺錢現在的台電不斷虧損再加上您剛剛講的中油\n那未來要去採購更加的昂貴相對於澳洲來講更貴的這個阿拉斯加的LNG我想問的是要如何改善這樣子的一個體質讓中油跟台電能夠不要有虧損的黑洞那此時當然就不再需要用人民的納稅錢來撥補這就是對台電對中油最好的方式請問我們目前有解決方案了嗎\n報告委員,其實之所以會有虧損最主要的原因是因為從2022年開始,惡霧戰爭導致國際燃料的價格...你講得非常好,因為總統的說法是說是因為COVID-19,事實上就是因為惡霧戰爭,所以剛才你也講出了正確的答案,而我們賴清德總統講的是完全錯誤的。\n那所以因為時間的關係所以我在這裡只是希望建議不管是在中油不管是在台電這些漲幅非常劇烈的變化一定要先想出一個方案是讓中油的體質台電的體質能夠讓它轉虧為盈那這個時候我們才能討論說那要如何的去撥普然後如何的去協助否則永遠都在撥普這件事情我覺得國人是難以接受的\n所以希望經濟部回去針對這個整個台電中油的體質要如何維持它的損益平衡甚至像以前一樣能夠賺錢再做出一些努力那未來我們可以聽到相關的專案報告以上 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.031 --> 00:08.457\n謝謝主席那我們先請這個行政院經貿辦公室的副總談判代表嚴代表\n\n00:14.056 --> 00:40.368\n我想先请问一下您刚刚在回答其他委员的问题的时候那我听到您说产业支持方案你们编列预算是大概900多亿左右但是我很好奇你们都还不知道谈判的最后结果以及各个产业要付出什么样的代价那怎么就会已经规划出来支持方案只需要900多亿呢这个经费是怎么样规划出来的呀\n\n00:41.537 --> 01:06.312\n跟委員報告這個經費在指的是我們當初4月11號院長去這個立法院做專案報告的時候因為我們有預先做評估台灣面對美國的對等關稅我們以低中高三種情境來評估那高的情境就是我們現在所面臨可能是32%的關稅的情況之下那我們請農工部會去評估好所以你認為在\n\n01:08.733 --> 01:33.295\n原本的三十幾趴的匯率的這個對不起三十幾趴的這個關稅的這個狀況之下支持產業方案只需要九百多億喔好那接下來站在國人的角度呢對於政府在關稅上的談判可以說是非常焦慮的在我這裡也收到很多包含中小企業跟農民的陳情喔那政府在關稅上的談判可以說非常不透明\n\n01:33.755 --> 01:57.305\n相对于比如说像是日本来讲那让我们的民众企业是很不知所措的比如说我举例以日本来说他们的政府人员呢包含赴美谈判的次数谈判涉及的东西范围红线基本态度以及美方对日方开出的条件谈判难度都有公开的让日本的民众产业知道我再举个例子\n\n01:57.685 --> 02:01.409\n日本堅持全面協議強調汽車關稅必須納入談判範圍以及農產品上面對稻米的進口問題上面堅守底線所以我想要問一下台灣方面我們有沒有哪一些底線是可以公開告訴大眾我們現在就是要堅守不放的\n\n02:19.926 --> 02:45.624\n好謝謝委員跟委員回報像每個國家實際上跟美國都有相關的國際談判的保密的義務所以呢台灣也是有同樣的義務那日本沒有嗎所以像日本韓國實際上他們也都沒有揭露太多的他沒有揭露但他有講到的是說哪一些談判是他們底線他要告訴他的國民他要告訴這些產業我們一定會保護你\n\n02:46.725 --> 02:57.514\n對那我們台灣的部分我們台灣的底線我提到了就是我們國家跟產業的利益糧食安全跟國民健康糧食安全跟國民健康好那我們現在請農業部好不好\n\n03:04.932 --> 03:23.317\n那麼剛才談到糧食我們可以看到最近美國陸續給出新的關稅稅率有些國家他是有巨大的妥協在換取到稅率的降低以美國跟印尼最新達成的協議為例印尼首次向美國開放超過2.8億人口的市場並且承諾採購150億美元的能源45億美元的農產品以及50架的波音飛機\n\n03:32.760 --> 03:50.868\n還有包含印尼美國對印尼的出口即將是免關稅無關稅避雷的那類似這樣子的情況所以讓他們的這個關稅的原稅率能夠下降那以此呢可以推測這個談判的美國在意的六大重點比如關稅與配額非關稅跟貿易障礙原產地的原則保證採購跟保證投資勞工跟環境保護以及保證國防預算\n\n04:00.672 --> 04:16.079\n那我想問農業部這個部分我之前有向外交部質詢過有關於為了鞏固跟巴拉圭的這個外交關係所以我們把巴拉圭的關稅豬肉降到零關稅當時就有非常多的豬農來抗議所以當時林佳龍部長也承諾會再去跟豬農溝通因為這個影響到豬農非常大的利益\n\n04:25.743 --> 04:37.929\n所以我想要請問一下就是我們在我們在談判的部分那美方這裡有談到先前公開的這個訊息有談到第一個希望針對這個這個萊克多巴胺的豬肉美國進口的這個豬肉還有牛肉\n\n04:44.412 --> 04:56.418\n不再進行產地的標示第二個部分呢是關於基因改造食品的進口第三個部分呢是農產品的零關稅所以我想要請教一下包含是我們談判代表跟農業部請問這三項我們會堅持嗎\n\n05:01.256 --> 05:14.834\n謝謝委員關心也支持台灣農業那我想就農業部的立場其實是清楚的台灣跟美國的農產品貿易其實是非常密切的台灣是美國第八大的農產品出口國對但是我們是賺他們的錢對不對\n\n05:16.997 --> 05:27.889\n美國是我們第一大農產品的出口國所以雙方的農業貿易是非常密切的我知道我知道但是我們的進出口我們的這個互動有分成我們賺他們的錢跟他們賺我們的錢你剛剛所說的是我們賺他的錢對吧\n\n05:31.994 --> 05:54.023\n他是我們的第一大貿易出口國我們出口到那邊是8.9億對嘛所以他們一直希望說能夠平衡所以我們賣給對方出口越多他們對我們就會越不滿就會越希望能夠降低這個稅率甚至能夠開放到零稅率所以我剛剛的這個問題非常的清楚就是三件事情\n\n05:54.343 --> 06:22.078\n第一個基因改造食品的進入第二個針對美國的豬肉跟牛肉不用再標示第三個農產品上面尤其對於我們台灣養豬業者可以說非常多是否會對美國提出零關稅這三點我沒有要求就是你們要告訴我們說是不是要這麼做我是問這三點上面我們的談判貿易代表我們的農業部有沒有堅持\n\n06:23.619 --> 06:46.446\n就臺灣農業部來講我絕對只是支持我們國內代表那我要問一下談判代表這三點我們臺灣是否堅持到底我想我們臺灣有哪些敏感產業敏感產品我們很清楚臺灣的產業利益所在所以我想我們會堅持產業有更佳利益這三點是嗎我剛剛提的這三點我再提一次第一個叫做呢我們的這個\n\n06:48.007 --> 07:06.247\n基因改造食品的进入第二个叫做我们的猪肉牛肉从美方进口的标识要取消第三点叫做我们的农产品包含是猪肉牛肉对美国实施零关税这三点请问我们的贸易代表会不会坚持到底\n\n07:06.977 --> 07:33.554\n我想委員提出來的是美方的利益所在所以美方在談判當中他當然都可能會觸及到這些議題我問的是我國的立場我不在意美方我不在意美方的立場因為他們已經公佈了我在意的是我們有沒有這條底線去守護我們的農民因為現在的農民可以說是非常非常的緊張所以像是日本他們就有直接的告訴民眾說會在這個部分堅守底線那請問台灣有沒有這樣子對農民的承諾\n\n07:37.130 --> 07:48.156\n我想我們的農業部我們的行政團隊對我們的農民對我們的產業都有承諾就是我們一定會捍衛產業的好所以我可以理解成這三項我們在談判後我們不會讓他實行可以嗎\n\n07:50.951 --> 08:10.165\n我想這個都涉及到最後的共識了我們的底線在哪邊?要不要保護農民?保護農民是必然的但我剛剛講的這三點就是農民最在意的事情農民最在意的事情能不能夠被保護今天這就是我問您的問題\n\n08:11.570 --> 08:36.439\n是對所以我想我們一定會堅守產業國家利益OK好所以這三點我希望到時候在整個關稅出來之後不是讓農民付出剛剛我以上三點的代價我們現在是在公開的一個質詢的一個舞台上面那我也希望說今天的這個會議紀錄下面接下來我們看到的這三點不會發生那謝謝農業部那接下來我想要請這個經濟部\n\n08:40.714 --> 08:44.077\n看到你們的說明我們接下來要跟阿拉斯加買天然氣那這個價格也並不算便宜那現在呢一個議題呢是在討論說我們要撥補一千億給台電那既然撥補一千億給台電那我們接下來要買的是更貴的LNG\n\n09:07.214 --> 09:29.862\n貴的這個天然氣那勢必沒有辦法讓台電買到更便宜的電的時候那我們的這個財務黑洞只會繼續而已那請問台電你們的了解台電對於這個增加買LNG的預算會導致台電的經營狀況可能越來越差這件事情有什麼樣的看法\n\n09:31.117 --> 09:45.898\n謝謝委員關心首先就阿拉斯加部分我們在今年的三月份是有中油跟阿拉斯加有簽訂一個合作的意向書那阿拉斯加這邊是委託一個民間的公司在做所以我們現在是有\n\n09:46.418 --> 10:10.292\n跟阿拉斯加來這間民間公司在做相關的協議所以這個部分呢應該是以中油的業務為主的一樣嘛中油的這個油價然後再來就會反映到電價上面嘛這個東西油跟電它們其實是有關係的嘛那我要講的事情是比如我們先前跟澳洲採購了許多的天然氣它相對的價格就是比阿拉斯加來得便宜\n\n10:10.692 --> 10:24.668\n便宜多少我想我今天不需要在這個質詢上面跟大家說詳細的數字那大家都是知道的所以呢好我們今天採購澳洲的這個天然氣比採購阿拉斯加的天然氣還要貴的情況之下那\n\n10:25.729 --> 10:43.624\n如何去減少可能的虧損因為呢不管今天你是中油或是台電如果這個財務黑洞越來越大那不管今天補貼多少錢都沒有用它就是一個黑洞比如說像是台電來講我們已經補貼了三千億了但是仍然漲了三次電價加上產業漲了四次電價\n\n10:45.706 --> 11:00.641\n那如果因為我們採購的價格更高昂了所以呢相關的包含中油跟台電的他的整個規劃的這個品質他們的這個財政上面來說是雪上加霜的話那是不是以後每年要一千億兩千億永遠都看不到盡頭\n\n11:03.263 --> 11:22.012\n所以我想問一下在這個關稅的這個壁壘上面美國他提供的這個關稅的要求上包含我們已經跟阿拉斯加簽了相關的合約那簽了之後後續可能帶來的額外的成本我們要用什麼樣的方式讓他能夠賺錢讓他能夠損益平衡讓政府讓人民不需要用納稅錢來撲貼\n\n11:29.762 --> 11:44.627\n報告委員這個有關於這個台電的撥補一千億的部分未獲大院通過行政院已經發布新聞稿表示非常的遺憾因為這個是我們過去在跟產業界做了二十幾場的座談會是反應\n\n11:46.107 --> 11:54.455\n以前的台電是能夠賺錢的現在的台電是連年虧損的所以本來台電就應該要先去檢討要如何讓這個產業讓台電能夠停止虧損有相關的方案我們才有辦法拿納稅人的錢去撥補你不能說我們每次需要的時候撥補一千億、兩千億、三千億但仍然漲電價啊\n\n12:10.310 --> 12:12.711\n這次經濟部它也講啦就是說呢如果撥補之後不能告訴大家說我保證不會漲電價這是民眾覺得非常不公的事情嘛所以我要講的是過去的台電它能夠賺錢現在的台電不斷虧損再加上您剛剛講的中油\n\n12:29.059 --> 12:53.849\n那未來要去採購更加的昂貴相對於澳洲來講更貴的這個阿拉斯加的LNG我想問的是要如何改善這樣子的一個體質讓中油跟台電能夠不要有虧損的黑洞那此時當然就不再需要用人民的納稅錢來撥補這就是對台電對中油最好的方式請問我們目前有解決方案了嗎\n\n12:54.637 --> 13:14.311\n報告委員,其實之所以會有虧損最主要的原因是因為從2022年開始,惡霧戰爭導致國際燃料的價格...你講得非常好,因為總統的說法是說是因為COVID-19,事實上就是因為惡霧戰爭,所以剛才你也講出了正確的答案,而我們賴清德總統講的是完全錯誤的。\n\n13:16.613 --> 13:32.085\n那所以因為時間的關係所以我在這裡只是希望建議不管是在中油不管是在台電這些漲幅非常劇烈的變化一定要先想出一個方案是讓中油的體質台電的體質能夠讓它轉虧為盈那這個時候我們才能討論說那要如何的去撥普然後如何的去協助否則永遠都在撥普這件事情我覺得國人是難以接受的\n\n13:46.095 --> 13:58.502\n所以希望經濟部回去針對這個整個台電中油的體質要如何維持它的損益平衡甚至像以前一樣能夠賺錢再做出一些努力那未來我們可以聽到相關的專案報告以上謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.031,"end":8.457,"text":"謝謝主席那我們先請這個行政院經貿辦公室的副總談判代表 嚴代表"},{"start":14.056,"end":40.368,"text":"我想先请问一下您刚刚在回答其他委员的问题的时候那我听到您说产业支持方案你们编列预算是大概900多亿左右但是我很好奇你们都还不知道谈判的最后结果以及各个产业要付出什么样的代价那怎么就会已经规划出来支持方案只需要900多亿呢这个经费是怎么样规划出来的呀"},{"start":41.537,"end":66.312,"text":"跟委員報告這個經費在指的是我們當初4月11號院長去這個立法院做專案報告的時候因為我們有預先做評估台灣面對美國的對等關稅我們以低中高三種情境來評估那高的情境就是我們現在所面臨可能是32%的關稅的情況之下那我們請農工部會去評估好所以你認為在"},{"start":68.733,"end":93.295,"text":"原本的三十幾趴的匯率的這個 對不起三十幾趴的這個關稅的這個狀況之下支持產業方案只需要九百多億喔好 那接下來站在國人的角度呢對於政府在關稅上的談判可以說是非常焦慮的在我這裡也收到很多包含中小企業跟農民的陳情喔那政府在關稅上的談判可以說非常不透明"},{"start":93.755,"end":117.305,"text":"相对于比如说像是日本来讲那让我们的民众企业是很不知所措的比如说我举例以日本来说他们的政府人员呢包含赴美谈判的次数谈判涉及的东西范围红线基本态度以及美方对日方开出的条件谈判难度都有公开的让日本的民众产业知道我再举个例子"},{"start":117.685,"end":121.409,"text":"日本堅持全面協議強調汽車關稅必須納入談判範圍以及農產品上面對稻米的進口問題上面堅守底線所以我想要問一下台灣方面我們有沒有哪一些底線是可以公開告訴大眾我們現在就是要堅守不放的"},{"start":139.926,"end":165.624,"text":"好 謝謝委員 跟委員回報像每個國家 實際上跟美國都有相關的國際談判的保密的義務所以呢 台灣也是有同樣的義務那日本沒有嗎所以像日本 韓國 實際上他們也都沒有揭露太多的他沒有揭露 但他有講到的是說哪一些談判是他們底線他要告訴他的國民 他要告訴這些產業我們一定會保護你"},{"start":166.725,"end":177.514,"text":"對 那我們台灣的部分我們台灣的底線我提到了就是我們國家跟產業的利益糧食安全跟國民健康糧食安全跟國民健康好 那我們現在請農業部好不好"},{"start":184.932,"end":203.317,"text":"那麼剛才談到糧食我們可以看到最近美國陸續給出新的關稅稅率有些國家他是有巨大的妥協在換取到稅率的降低以美國跟印尼最新達成的協議為例印尼首次向美國開放超過2.8億人口的市場並且承諾採購150億美元的能源45億美元的農產品以及50架的波音飛機"},{"start":212.76,"end":230.868,"text":"還有包含印尼美國對印尼的出口即將是免關稅無關稅避雷的那類似這樣子的情況所以讓他們的這個關稅的原稅率能夠下降那以此呢可以推測這個談判的美國在意的六大重點比如關稅與配額非關稅跟貿易障礙原產地的原則保證採購跟保證投資勞工跟環境保護以及保證國防預算"},{"start":240.672,"end":256.079,"text":"那我想問農業部這個部分我之前有向外交部質詢過有關於為了鞏固跟巴拉圭的這個外交關係所以我們把巴拉圭的關稅豬肉降到零關稅當時就有非常多的豬農來抗議所以當時林佳龍部長也承諾會再去跟豬農溝通因為這個影響到豬農非常大的利益"},{"start":265.743,"end":277.929,"text":"所以我想要請問一下就是我們在我們在談判的部分那美方這裡有談到先前公開的這個訊息有談到第一個希望針對這個這個萊克多巴胺的豬肉美國進口的這個豬肉還有牛肉"},{"start":284.412,"end":296.418,"text":"不再進行產地的標示第二個部分呢是關於基因改造食品的進口第三個部分呢是農產品的零關稅所以我想要請教一下包含是我們談判代表跟農業部請問這三項我們會堅持嗎"},{"start":301.256,"end":314.834,"text":"謝謝委員關心也支持台灣農業那我想就農業部的立場其實是清楚的台灣跟美國的農產品貿易其實是非常密切的台灣是美國第八大的農產品出口國對但是我們是賺他們的錢對不對"},{"start":316.997,"end":327.889,"text":"美國是我們第一大農產品的出口國所以雙方的農業貿易是非常密切的我知道我知道但是我們的進出口我們的這個互動有分成我們賺他們的錢跟他們賺我們的錢你剛剛所說的是我們賺他的錢對吧"},{"start":331.994,"end":354.023,"text":"他是我們的第一大貿易出口國我們出口到那邊是8.9億對嘛所以他們一直希望說能夠平衡所以我們賣給對方出口越多他們對我們就會越不滿就會越希望能夠降低這個稅率甚至能夠開放到零稅率所以我剛剛的這個問題非常的清楚就是三件事情"},{"start":354.343,"end":382.078,"text":"第一個基因改造食品的進入第二個針對美國的豬肉跟牛肉不用再標示第三個農產品上面尤其對於我們台灣養豬業者可以說非常多是否會對美國提出零關稅這三點我沒有要求就是你們要告訴我們說是不是要這麼做我是問這三點上面我們的談判貿易代表我們的農業部有沒有堅持"},{"start":383.619,"end":406.446,"text":"就臺灣農業部來講 我絕對只是支持我們國內代表那我要問一下談判代表這三點 我們臺灣是否堅持到底我想我們臺灣有哪些敏感產業 敏感產品我們很清楚臺灣的產業利益所在所以我想我們會堅持產業有更佳利益這三點 是嗎我剛剛提的這三點 我再提一次第一個叫做呢 我們的這個"},{"start":408.007,"end":426.247,"text":"基因改造食品的进入第二个叫做我们的猪肉牛肉从美方进口的标识要取消第三点叫做我们的农产品包含是猪肉牛肉对美国实施零关税这三点请问我们的贸易代表会不会坚持到底"},{"start":426.977,"end":453.554,"text":"我想委員提出來的是美方的利益所在所以美方在談判當中他當然都可能會觸及到這些議題我問的是我國的立場我不在意美方我不在意美方的立場因為他們已經公佈了我在意的是我們有沒有這條底線去守護我們的農民因為現在的農民可以說是非常非常的緊張所以像是日本他們就有直接的告訴民眾說會在這個部分堅守底線那請問台灣有沒有這樣子對農民的承諾"},{"start":457.13,"end":468.156,"text":"我想我們的農業部我們的行政團隊對我們的農民對我們的產業都有承諾就是我們一定會捍衛產業的好所以我可以理解成這三項我們在談判後我們不會讓他實行可以嗎"},{"start":470.951,"end":490.165,"text":"我想這個都涉及到最後的共識了我們的底線在哪邊?要不要保護農民?保護農民是必然的但我剛剛講的這三點就是農民最在意的事情農民最在意的事情能不能夠被保護今天這就是我問您的問題"},{"start":491.57,"end":516.439,"text":"是 對 所以我想我們一定會堅守產業國家利益OK 好 所以這三點我希望到時候在整個關稅出來之後不是讓農民付出剛剛我以上三點的代價我們現在是在公開的一個質詢的一個舞台上面那我也希望說今天的這個會議紀錄下面接下來我們看到的這三點不會發生那謝謝農業部那接下來我想要請這個經濟部"},{"start":520.714,"end":524.077,"text":"看到你們的說明我們接下來要跟阿拉斯加買天然氣那這個價格也並不算便宜那現在呢一個議題呢是在討論說我們要撥補一千億給台電那既然撥補一千億給台電那我們接下來要買的是更貴的LNG"},{"start":547.214,"end":569.862,"text":"貴的這個天然氣那勢必沒有辦法讓台電買到更便宜的電的時候那我們的這個財務黑洞只會繼續而已那請問台電你們的了解台電對於這個增加買LNG的預算會導致台電的經營狀況可能越來越差這件事情有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":571.117,"end":585.898,"text":"謝謝委員關心首先就阿拉斯加部分我們在今年的三月份是有中油跟阿拉斯加有簽訂一個合作的意向書那阿拉斯加這邊是委託一個民間的公司在做所以我們現在是有"},{"start":586.418,"end":610.292,"text":"跟阿拉斯加來這間民間公司在做相關的協議所以這個部分呢應該是以中油的業務為主的一樣嘛中油的這個油價然後再來就會反映到電價上面嘛這個東西油跟電它們其實是有關係的嘛那我要講的事情是比如我們先前跟澳洲採購了許多的天然氣它相對的價格就是比阿拉斯加來得便宜"},{"start":610.692,"end":624.668,"text":"便宜多少我想我今天不需要在這個質詢上面跟大家說詳細的數字那大家都是知道的所以呢好我們今天採購澳洲的這個天然氣比採購阿拉斯加的天然氣還要貴的情況之下那"},{"start":625.729,"end":643.624,"text":"如何去減少可能的虧損因為呢不管今天你是中油或是台電如果這個財務黑洞越來越大那不管今天補貼多少錢都沒有用它就是一個黑洞比如說像是台電來講我們已經補貼了三千億了但是仍然漲了三次電價加上產業漲了四次電價"},{"start":645.706,"end":660.641,"text":"那如果因為我們採購的價格更高昂了所以呢相關的包含中油跟台電的他的整個規劃的這個品質他們的這個財政上面來說是雪上加霜的話那是不是以後每年要一千億兩千億永遠都看不到盡頭"},{"start":663.263,"end":682.012,"text":"所以我想問一下在這個關稅的這個壁壘上面美國他提供的這個關稅的要求上包含我們已經跟阿拉斯加簽了相關的合約那簽了之後後續可能帶來的額外的成本我們要用什麼樣的方式讓他能夠賺錢讓他能夠損益平衡讓政府讓人民不需要用納稅錢來撲貼"},{"start":689.762,"end":704.627,"text":"報告委員這個有關於這個台電的撥補一千億的部分未獲大院通過行政院已經發布新聞稿表示非常的遺憾因為這個是我們過去在跟產業界做了二十幾場的座談會是反應"},{"start":706.107,"end":714.455,"text":"以前的台電是能夠賺錢的現在的台電是連年虧損的所以本來台電就應該要先去檢討要如何讓這個產業讓台電能夠停止虧損有相關的方案我們才有辦法拿納稅人的錢去撥補你不能說我們每次需要的時候撥補一千億、兩千億、三千億但仍然漲電價啊"},{"start":730.31,"end":732.711,"text":"這次經濟部它也講啦就是說呢如果撥補之後不能告訴大家說我保證不會漲電價這是民眾覺得非常不公的事情嘛所以我要講的是過去的台電它能夠賺錢現在的台電不斷虧損再加上您剛剛講的中油"},{"start":749.059,"end":773.849,"text":"那未來要去採購更加的昂貴相對於澳洲來講更貴的這個阿拉斯加的LNG我想問的是要如何改善這樣子的一個體質讓中油跟台電能夠不要有虧損的黑洞那此時當然就不再需要用人民的納稅錢來撥補這就是對台電對中油最好的方式請問我們目前有解決方案了嗎"},{"start":774.637,"end":794.311,"text":"報告委員,其實之所以會有虧損最主要的原因是因為從2022年開始,惡霧戰爭導致國際燃料的價格...你講得非常好,因為總統的說法是說是因為COVID-19,事實上就是因為惡霧戰爭,所以剛才你也講出了正確的答案,而我們賴清德總統講的是完全錯誤的。"},{"start":796.613,"end":812.085,"text":"那所以因為時間的關係所以我在這裡只是希望建議不管是在中油不管是在台電這些漲幅非常劇烈的變化一定要先想出一個方案是讓中油的體質台電的體質能夠讓它轉虧為盈那這個時候我們才能討論說那要如何的去撥普然後如何的去協助否則永遠都在撥普這件事情我覺得國人是難以接受的"},{"start":826.095,"end":838.502,"text":"所以希望經濟部回去針對這個整個台電中油的體質要如何維持它的損益平衡甚至像以前一樣能夠賺錢再做出一些努力那未來我們可以聽到相關的專案報告以上 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":228,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時6分）謝謝主席，我們先請行政院經貿談判辦公室的副總談判代表顏代表。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：我想先請問一下，您剛剛在回答其他委員的問題的時候，我聽到您說產業支持方案，你們編列的預算大概有九百多億左右，但是我很好奇，你們都還不知道談判的最後結果以及各個產業要付出什麼樣的代價，怎麼就已經規劃出來，支持方案只需要九百多億呢？這個經費是怎麼樣規劃出來的？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：跟委員報告，這個經費指的是我們當初4月11號，院長去立法院做專案報告的時候，因為我們有預先評估，臺灣面對美國的對等關稅，我們以低、中、高三種情境來評估，高的情境，就是我們現在面臨可能是32%關稅的情況之下，我們請農工部會去評估國內的因應方案。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你認為在原本百分之三十幾關稅的狀況之下，支持產業方案只需要九百多億？好，接下來，站在國人的角度，對於政府在關稅上的談判，可以說是非常焦慮的，我這裡也收到很多包含中小企業跟農民的陳情，政府在關稅上的談判可以說非常不透明，讓我們的民眾及產業是很不知所措的。以日本來說，他們的政府人員，包含赴美談判的次數、談判涉及的東西、範圍、紅線、基本態度，以及美方對日方開出的條件、談判難度，都有公開讓日本的民眾及產業知道。我再舉一個例子，日本堅持全面協議，強調汽車關稅必須納入談判範圍，以及農產品上對稻米的進口問題堅守底線。所以我想要問一下，臺灣方面，我們有沒有哪一些底線是可以公開告訴大眾，我們現在就是要堅守不放的？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：好，謝謝委員，跟委員回報，每個國家實際上跟美國都有相關國際談判的保密義務，所以臺灣也是有同樣的義務。"],["徐委員巧芯：那日本沒有嗎？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：所以像日本、韓國，實際上他們也都沒有揭露太多的訊息。"],["徐委員巧芯：他沒有揭露，但他有講到哪一些談判是他們的底線，他要告訴他的國民，他要告訴這些產業，我們一定會保護你。"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：對，我想……"],["徐委員巧芯：那我們臺灣的部分呢？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：關於我們臺灣的底線，有提到的是我們國家跟產業的利益、糧食安全跟國民健康……"],["徐委員巧芯：糧食安全跟國民健康？好，我們現在請農業部。"],["杜次長文珍：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：剛才談到糧食，我們可以看到最近美國陸陸續續給出新的關稅稅率，有些國家巨大的妥協才換取到稅率降低，以美國跟印尼最新達成的協議為例，印尼首次向美國開放超過2.8億人口的市場，並且承諾採購150億美元的能源、45億美元的農產品及50架的波音飛機，還有美國對印尼的出口即將是免關稅、無關稅壁壘的，類似這樣子的情況，所以讓他們關稅的原稅率能夠下降，因此可以推測出談判時美國在意的六大重點，比如關稅配額、非關稅貿易障礙、原產地原則、保證採購跟保證投資、勞工跟環境保護及保證國防預算。我想問農業部這個部分，我先前有向外交部質詢過，為了鞏固跟巴拉圭的外交關係，我們把巴拉圭的豬肉關稅降到零關稅，當時就有非常多的豬農抗議，所以當時林佳龍部長也承諾會再跟豬農溝通，因為這個影響到豬農非常大的利益。關於我們在談判的部分，美方先前公開的訊息有談到，第一個是希望針對萊克多巴胺的部分，跟美國進口的豬肉及牛肉不再進行產地標示；第二個是關於基因改造食品的進口；第三個是農產品的零關稅。我想要請教一下談判代表跟農業部，這三項我們會堅持嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：謝謝委員關心也支持臺灣農業，我想農業部的立場是清楚的，臺灣跟美國的農產品貿易是非常密切的，臺灣是美國第八大的農產品出口國，所以……"],["徐委員巧芯：對，但我們是賺他們的錢，對不對？"],["杜次長文珍：美國是我們第一大的農產品出口國，雙方的農業貿易是非常密切的。"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道，但是我們的進出口互動有分成我們賺他們的錢跟他們賺我們的錢，你剛剛所說的是我們賺他們的錢，對吧？"],["杜次長文珍：它是我們第一大的貿易出口國，我們出口到那邊是8.9億。"],["徐委員巧芯：對嘛！他們一直希望能夠平衡，我們賣給對方、出口越多，他們對我們就會越不滿，就會越希望能夠降低稅率，甚至能夠開放到零稅率。我剛剛的這個問題非常清楚，就是三件事情，第一個、基因改造食品的進入；第二個、美國的豬肉跟牛肉不用再標示；第三個、在農產品上面，尤其對於臺灣養豬業者可以說非常多，是否會對美國提出零關稅？這三點我沒有要求你們要告訴我們是不是要這麼做，我是詢問在這三點上面，我們的貿易談判代表、農業部有沒有堅持？"],["杜次長文珍：就農業部來講，絕對只是支持我們國內的農業。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK，我要問一下談判代表，這三點臺灣是否堅持到底？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我想臺灣有哪一些敏感產業、敏感產品，我們很清楚臺灣的產業利益所在，所以我們會堅持產業、國家利益。"],["徐委員巧芯：我剛剛提的這三點，是嗎？我再提一次，第一個、關於基因改造食品的進入；第二個、我們的豬肉、牛肉從美方進口的標示要取消；第三個、我們的農產品，包含豬肉、牛肉對美國實施零關稅。請問這三點我們的貿易代表會不會堅持到底？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我想委員提出來的是美方的利益所在，所以美方在談判當中當然都可能會觸及到這些議題，我方的立場會持續堅持。"],["徐委員巧芯：我問的是我國的立場，我不在意美方的立場，因為他們已經公布了。我在意的是我們有沒有這條底線去守護我們的農民，因為現在的農民可以說是非常非常的緊張，像日本就直接告訴民眾會在這個部分堅守底線，請問臺灣有沒有這樣子對農民的承諾？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我想農業部、行政團隊對農民及產業都有承諾，就是我們一定會捍衛產業的最佳利益。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK，好，所以我可以理解成這三項我們在談判後不會讓它實行，可以嗎？"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：我想這個都涉及最後的共識，所以我不能在這裡透露。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們的底線在哪邊？要不要保護農民？所以到現在還是沒有辦法……"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：保護農民是必然的。"],["徐委員巧芯：保護農民是必然的，我剛剛講的這三點就是農民最在意的事情，農民最在意的事情能不能夠被保護，這就是今天我問您的問題啊！"],["顏副總談判代表慧欣：對，我們一定會堅守產業、國家利益。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK，好，我希望到時候在整個關稅出來之後，不是讓農民付出剛才我以上三點的代價，我們現在是在公開的一個質詢舞臺上面，也希望有今天這個會議紀錄之下，接下來我們看到的這三點不會發生。謝謝農業部，接下來我想要請經濟部。"],["江次長文若：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：我看到你們的說明，我們接下來要跟阿拉斯加買天然氣，這個價格並不算便宜。現在有一個議題是在討論我們要撥補1,000億給台電，既然撥補1,000億給台電，但我們接下來要買的是更貴的天然氣（LNG），勢必沒有辦法讓台電買到更便宜的電時，那麼我們的財務黑洞只會繼續而已。依你們的了解，對於台電增加買LNG的預算，會導致台電的經營狀況可能越來越差，這件事情你有什麼樣的看法？"],["江次長文若：謝謝委員關心。首先就阿拉斯加的部分，今年3月中油跟阿拉斯加有簽訂合作意向書，阿拉斯加是委託一個民間公司在做，所以我們現在有跟阿拉斯加的民間公司做相關的協議，這個部分應該是以中油的業務為主。"],["徐委員巧芯：一樣嘛！中油的油價再來就會反映到電價上面，油跟電其實是有關係的。我要講的事情是，比如我們先前跟澳洲採購了許多的天然氣，它的價格相對就是比阿拉斯加來得便宜，但便宜多少，我想我今天不需要在質詢上面跟大家說詳細的數字，大家都是知道的。我們現今採購阿拉斯加天然氣比採購澳洲天然氣還要貴的情況之下，如何減少可能的虧損？不管是中油或是台電，如果這個財務黑洞越來越大，不論今天補貼多少錢都沒有用，它就是一個黑洞。比如以台電來講，我們已經補貼了3,000億，但仍然漲了三次電價，加上產業漲，漲了四次電價，如果採購的價格更高昂，相關的包含中油跟台電整個規劃的品質及他們財政上面雪上加霜的話，是不是以後每年要1,000億、2,000億，永遠都看不到盡頭？","我想要問一下，在關稅壁壘上面，美國提供的關稅要求，包含我們已經跟阿拉斯加簽了相關的合約，簽了之後，後續可能帶來的額外成本，我們要用什麼樣的方式讓它能夠賺錢、讓它能夠損益平衡？政府如何讓人民不需要用納稅錢補貼？"],["江次長文若：報告委員，有關撥補台電1,000億的部分，因為未獲大院通過，所以行政院已經發布新聞稿表示非常遺憾，這個是我們過去跟產業界做了二十幾場的座談會之後，反映工商業的心聲……"],["徐委員巧芯：以前台電是能夠賺錢的，現在的台電是連年虧損，本來台電就應該要先去檢討如何讓台電能夠停止虧損，有相關的方案後才有辦法拿納稅人的錢去撥補，不能每次需要的時候就撥補1,000億、2,000億、3,000億，但仍然漲電價啊！這次經濟部也講了，如果撥補之後不能告訴大家保證不會漲電價，這是民眾覺得非常不公的事情。過去的台電能夠賺錢，現在的台電不斷虧損，再加上您剛剛講的中油，未來要去採購比澳洲更加昂貴的阿拉斯加LNG，我想問的是，要如何改善這樣子的體質，讓中油跟台電能夠不要有虧損的黑洞？到那時當然就不再需要用人民的納稅錢撥補，這就是對台電、中油最好的方式。請問目前有解決方案了嗎？"],["江次長文若：報告委員，之所以會有虧損，最主要的原因是因為從2022年開始，俄烏戰爭導致國際的燃料價格……"],["徐委員巧芯：你講得非常好，總統的說法是因為COVID-19，事實上就是因為俄烏戰爭，剛才你也講出了正確的答案，而賴清德總統講的是完全錯誤的。因為時間的關係，所以我在這裡只是希望建議，不管是在中油或台電，這一些漲幅非常劇烈的變化一定要先想出一個方案，讓中油的體質、台電的體質能夠轉虧為盈，到那個時候我們才能討論要如何去撥補、如何去協助，否則永遠都在撥補。這件事情我覺得國人是難以接受的，所以希望經濟部回去之後，針對整個台電、中油的體質要如何維持它的損益平衡，甚至像以前一樣能夠賺錢，再做出一些努力，未來我們可以聽到相關的專案報告。以上，謝謝。"],["主席（黃委員仁）：謝謝徐巧芯委員的質詢。","接下來由馬文君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-22","speakers":["黃仁","王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","徐巧芯","馬文君","黃國昌","陳俊宇","林憶君","林倩綺","陳冠廷","李坤城","沈伯洋","林楚茵"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-07-16"],"gazette_id":"1146701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、國家安全局局長、經濟部次長、財政部次長、農業部次長、行政院經貿談判辦\n公室副總談判代表報告「台美對等關稅談判進度、預期成果、對我國可能之衝擊及因應策略」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146701_00001"}}}