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案量應該是1比30啦而保的話則是1比25那我們確實現在目前像委員剛剛所說的我們現在目前確實有這個整個社工他的整個overloaded的這個問題所以你們現在處理方式跟未來改善的方式要積極要趕快要來補足我們現在目前的這個社工那有時程嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 361.681, \"end\": 362.422, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 362.422, \"end\": 362.702, \"score\": 0.784}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 362.702, \"end\": 362.842, \"score\": 0.675}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 362.842, \"end\": 363.002, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 363.002, \"end\": 363.142, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"網\"}, {\"word\": \"絡\"}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 363.142, \"end\": 363.262, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 363.262, \"end\": 363.442, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"另\", \"start\": 363.442, \"end\": 363.522, \"score\": 0.767}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 363.522, \"end\": 363.642, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 363.642, \"end\": 363.742, \"score\": 0.916}, 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{\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 885.151, \"end\": 885.311, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 885.311, \"end\": 885.511, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 885.511, \"end\": 885.731, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 885.731, \"end\": 885.811, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 885.811, \"end\": 885.851, \"score\": 0.224}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 885.851, \"end\": 885.991, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 885.991, \"end\": 886.071, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 886.071, \"end\": 886.091, \"score\": 0.655}, {\"word\": \"連\"}, {\"word\": \"啟\"}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 886.091, \"end\": 886.192, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 886.192, \"end\": 886.392, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 886.392, \"end\": 886.412, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"啟\"}, {\"word\": \"動\"}]}, {\"start\": 887.472, \"end\": 907.932, \"text\": \"或是他會擔心後續這個其實所謂這個調升多少這個事實上我們當時都有做過非常多的那個研究就是說最大的一個幅度是十萬元以下的調成那個五成聽起來好像非常龐大那可是實際上呢他是一千元\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 887.472, \"end\": 887.592, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 887.592, \"end\": 887.712, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 887.712, \"end\": 888.153, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"擔\"}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 888.153, \"end\": 888.333, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 888.333, \"end\": 888.733, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 888.733, \"end\": 890.755, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 890.755, \"end\": 891.796, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"謂\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"升\", \"start\": 891.796, \"end\": 891.996, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 891.996, \"end\": 892.177, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 892.177, 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\"回到那個裁判費本身是一千元變成了一千五百元就是多了五就是你先講一千元嘛如果他的那個費用基本上是高的那這個五成是很高吧所以我們五成就是十萬元以下的就是標的是十萬元以下那其實一般民眾就是說我覺得增下一半也很多通常我們在調生的時候就是五百塊啊就是十萬元以下的五百塊對你來講可能是\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 909.153, \"end\": 909.293, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 909.293, \"end\": 909.433, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 909.433, \"end\": 909.613, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"裁\", \"start\": 909.613, \"end\": 909.753, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"判\", \"start\": 909.753, \"end\": 910.073, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 910.073, \"end\": 910.194, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"身\", \"start\": 910.194, \"end\": 910.354, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 910.354, \"end\": 910.474, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 910.474, \"end\": 910.614, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"千\", \"start\": 910.614, \"end\": 910.814, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"元\", \"start\": 910.814, \"end\": 911.294, 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0.835}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1029.857, \"end\": 1030.078, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1030.078, \"end\": 1030.238, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1030.238, \"end\": 1030.978, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1030.978, \"end\": 1031.138, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1031.138, \"end\": 1031.158, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}]}, {\"start\": 1032.819, \"end\": 1059.018, \"text\": \"政策在形成的時候我還沒有到司法院來服務那所以這個部分委員我可能還要回去再做多一些資料來跟委員報告對 那個專案報告不要忘了就說你們上次答應從4月到7月現在很久了這個很抱歉 這個我們不知道我們還沒有提出去第二個 那我的重點就是說你剛剛也提到說這樣也是一個門檻讓民眾自行先去了解跟這個延期他要在哪一個程度就法律面或者是非法律的救濟途徑\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 1032.819, \"end\": 1032.979, \"score\": 0.671}, {\"word\": \"策\", \"start\": 1032.979, \"end\": 1033.099, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1033.099, \"end\": 1033.259, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"形\", \"start\": 1033.259, \"end\": 1033.42, 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\"就像剛才我們有委員提出來,尤其是吳委員我們招委,我就想說一般民眾他只管他的權益,也就是說政府你能夠做什麼,但是政府我們不應該就是說,那麼為了我們的這個,我們不能說我們的方便,但是就是說你看那個訴訟費的增加成為一個門檻,那民眾要做很多他們非專業的事情,他可能就會覺得有些東西有一點overloading,\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1081.448, \"end\": 1081.568, \"score\": 0.644}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 1081.568, \"end\": 1081.908, \"score\": 0.662}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 1081.908, \"end\": 1082.028, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1082.028, \"end\": 1082.208, \"score\": 0.542}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1082.208, \"end\": 1082.328, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1082.328, \"end\": 1082.628, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 1082.628, \"end\": 1082.788, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 1082.788, \"end\": 1083.429, \"score\": 0.78}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"尤\", \"start\": 1083.429, \"end\": 1083.569, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 1083.569, 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\"end\": 1101.974, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 1101.974, \"end\": 1102.094, \"score\": 0.496}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 1102.094, \"end\": 1102.174, \"score\": 0.6}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 1102.174, \"end\": 1102.274, \"score\": 0.662}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1102.274, \"end\": 1102.594, \"score\": 0.725}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 1102.594, \"end\": 1102.714, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1102.714, \"end\": 1102.834, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 1102.834, \"end\": 1103.114, \"score\": 0.761}, {\"word\": \"東\"}, {\"word\": \"西\", \"start\": 1103.114, \"end\": 1104.715, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1104.715, \"end\": 1104.835, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1104.835, \"end\": 1104.975, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"o\", \"start\": 1104.975, \"end\": 1105.255, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"v\", \"start\": 1105.255, \"end\": 1105.395, \"score\": 0.779}, {\"word\": \"e\", \"start\": 1105.395, \"end\": 1105.475, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"r\", \"start\": 1105.475, \"end\": 1105.495, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"l\", \"start\": 1105.495, \"end\": 1105.515, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"o\", \"start\": 1105.515, \"end\": 1105.555, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"a\", \"start\": 1105.555, \"end\": 1105.755, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"d\", \"start\": 1105.755, \"end\": 1105.795, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"i\", \"start\": 1105.795, \"end\": 1105.915, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"n\", \"start\": 1105.915, \"end\": 1105.935, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"g\", \"start\": 1105.935, \"end\": 1105.955, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \",\"}]}, {\"start\": 1106.415, \"end\": 1122.923, \"text\": \"所以本席這邊指出來的是說當你們覺得它可以是一個門檻的同時對民眾來講可能就是一個障礙那這個部分是不是請您在那個過程去了解這個相關的過程記錄的同時也納入一下考量因為就本席知道這個案件的這個過程當中你們這個宣告的時間可能也不夠長\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 1106.415, \"end\": 1106.595, 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\"過\"}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 1122.563, \"end\": 1122.643, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 1122.643, \"end\": 1122.663, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1122.663, \"end\": 1122.683, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"宣\", \"start\": 1122.683, \"end\": 1122.723, \"score\": 0.159}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 1122.723, \"end\": 1122.743, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1122.743, \"end\": 1122.763, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 1122.763, \"end\": 1122.863, \"score\": 0.742}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 1122.863, \"end\": 1122.883, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 1122.883, \"end\": 1122.903, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1122.903, \"end\": 1122.923, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}]}, {\"start\": 1127.665, \"end\": 1150.157, \"text\": \"再來過程當中是不是有充分跟相關的食物界學界民間的表述有充分的這個溝通其實這個是本席最關心的但是因為你們一下子在去年就突然調升了那經常會使用到的人他就會有很大的衝擊我現在手上兩個那個資料一個是跟向委員報告這個資料在5月18號的時候就已經送達\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 1127.665, \"end\": 1128.225, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 1128.225, \"end\": 1128.626, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 1128.626, \"end\": 1128.786, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1128.786, \"end\": 1128.906, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1128.906, \"end\": 1128.966, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1128.966, \"end\": 1129.066, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1129.066, \"end\": 1129.206, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"充\", \"start\": 1129.206, \"end\": 1129.486, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 1129.486, \"end\": 1130.006, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 1130.006, \"end\": 1130.347, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 1130.347, 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0.976}, {\"word\": \"向\", \"start\": 1146.696, \"end\": 1146.876, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1146.876, \"end\": 1147.376, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 1147.376, \"end\": 1147.996, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 1147.996, \"end\": 1148.477, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1148.477, \"end\": 1148.817, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 1148.817, \"end\": 1149.457, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"號\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1149.457, \"end\": 1149.557, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 1149.557, \"end\": 1149.757, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1149.757, \"end\": 1149.917, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 1149.917, \"end\": 1150.137, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"送\", \"start\": 1150.137, \"end\": 1150.157, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"達\"}]}, {\"start\": 1151.218, \"end\": 1157.622, \"text\": \"委員這邊你們說要來做一個專案報告啊對你們有那個相關的資料另外先前在政策行程的時候有開過諮詢會議先前有開過諮詢會議對那諮詢會議的這個比例跟結構比如說民間多少人那食物界多少人\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1151.218, \"end\": 1151.998, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1151.998, \"end\": 1152.259, \"score\": 0.765}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1152.259, \"end\": 1152.499, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 1152.499, \"end\": 1152.619, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1152.619, \"end\": 1153.019, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 1153.019, \"end\": 1153.379, \"score\": 0.762}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 1153.379, \"end\": 1153.559, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 1153.559, \"end\": 1153.839, \"score\": 0.71}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1153.839, \"end\": 1154.02, \"score\": 0.736}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1154.02, \"end\": 1154.04, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1154.04, \"end\": 1154.24, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 1154.24, \"end\": 1154.38, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1154.38, \"end\": 1154.4, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 1154.4, \"end\": 1154.52, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"另\", \"start\": 1154.52, \"end\": 1154.68, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 1154.68, \"end\": 1154.94, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 1154.94, \"end\": 1155.1, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 1155.1, \"end\": 1155.26, \"score\": 0.755}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1155.26, \"end\": 1155.821, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 1155.821, \"end\": 1156.041, \"score\": 0.708}, {\"word\": \"策\", \"start\": 1156.041, \"end\": 1156.161, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 1156.161, \"end\": 1156.181, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 1156.181, \"end\": 1156.221, \"score\": 0.406}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1156.221, \"end\": 1156.301, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 1156.301, \"end\": 1156.321, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1156.321, \"end\": 1156.401, \"score\": 0.702}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"諮\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 1156.401, \"end\": 1156.421, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 1156.421, \"end\": 1156.641, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1156.641, \"end\": 1156.741, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"諮\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1156.741, \"end\": 1156.761, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"諮\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1156.761, \"end\": 1156.841, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 1156.841, \"end\": 1156.861, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 1156.861, \"end\": 1156.881, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 1156.881, \"end\": 1156.981, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"構\"}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 1156.981, \"end\": 1157.001, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 1157.001, \"end\": 1157.021, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 1157.021, \"end\": 1157.041, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 1157.041, \"end\": 1157.141, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 1157.141, \"end\": 1157.181, \"score\": 0.443}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 1157.181, \"end\": 1157.201, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1157.201, \"end\": 1157.301, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"食\", \"start\": 1157.301, \"end\": 1157.321, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"物\", \"start\": 1157.321, \"end\": 1157.361, \"score\": 0.456}, {\"word\": \"界\", \"start\": 1157.361, \"end\": 1157.441, \"score\": 0.74}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 1157.441, \"end\": 1157.461, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 1157.461, \"end\": 1157.602, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 1157.602, \"end\": 1157.622, \"score\": 0.008}]}, {\"start\": 1170.708, \"end\": 1196.334, \"text\": \"所以你知道我的重點嗎就是說你們在這個過程當中有沒有充分考慮到各方面的一個衝擊當然對你們來講你說二十幾年沒有調生那在這個時候調生好像也是做一個整理跟檢討但是那麼長的時間那在這個時間點一調生的幅度那麼高這樣子合不合適那第二個部分是那當它作為一個門檻那對民眾來講是不是增加了困難度這個是我一個重點\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 1170.708, \"end\": 1170.848, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1170.848, \"end\": 1170.988, \"score\": 0.715}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1170.988, \"end\": 1171.088, \"score\": 0.648}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 1171.088, \"end\": 1171.108, \"score\": 0.015}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 1171.108, \"end\": 1171.268, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1171.268, \"end\": 1171.368, \"score\": 0.632}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1171.368, \"end\": 1171.488, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 1171.488, \"end\": 1171.508, \"score\": 0.01}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1171.508, \"end\": 1172.289, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1172.289, \"end\": 1172.569, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1172.569, \"end\": 1172.749, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1172.749, \"end\": 1173.269, \"score\": 0.724}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 1173.269, \"end\": 1173.629, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 1173.629, \"end\": 1173.769, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": 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00:00:47,420\n保護令是不是萬能然後如何避免我們最近看到的這個個案的憾事在發生本席這邊有些看法所以不好意思需要請那個官員上台嗎可能待會第一個會先請衛福部長待會再請嗎對對對我先交代一下衛福部次長次次長部長先離開部長已經先離開了嗎好謝謝\n\n3\n00:00:52,206 --> 00:01:20,222\n好沒關係啦那因為土城這個案我想讓大家都非常矚目那剛才我們也在今天的會議裡面大家在討論有關於保護令的重要與否那當然也有比較我們法界的專家都提到了這個檢察官生壓的重要性那今天我們就這個案件來討論它不是一個單一個案我們就從個案裡面來看一個國家保護機制在\n\n4\n00:01:21,722 --> 00:01:40,993\n維護人民安全的這樣一個關鍵時刻失靈的制度性問題衛福部你們在先前的這個家庭暴力通報案件在2020年就有大約15萬件一直到2024已經到18萬件了剛才也委員指出來這樣子的案件越來越多\n\n5\n00:01:42,274 --> 00:02:06,289\n然後在案件當中呢親密關係的暴力是最多的那佔了幾乎一半通報的這個一半的數量那被害人主要都以女性為主佔比已經到了七成所以就有一些研究就開始指出國內的這個親密關係的暴力從發生到正式通報的時間現在已經有點縮短大概在平均\n\n6\n00:02:07,530 --> 00:02:21,771\n4.2年那我們的看法我這邊的看法是應該社會大眾目前對於通報意識的這個意願有逐漸提高所以也讓通報率有增加是的沒錯那這個數字本席這邊看到兩件事\n\n7\n00:02:22,332 --> 00:02:50,832\n第一個是國人對於家暴的敏感度有加強所以拒絕沉默的觀念也比較普及了那第二個部分應該是這個案件量也勢必提升從現在開始那麼國家是否已經準備好接受這樣高通報時代的制度會有一些挑戰那風險又如何控管我想這是我們今天在討論本席這邊待會要來跟你們就教的一些核心問題\n\n8\n00:02:52,253 --> 00:03:20,677\n所以我們先談一下保護性社工的量能所以在保護性社工量能跟落實的部分根據全國的資料跟時事的新聞目前整個國家應該來配置1985名的保護性的社工但是到今年7月案件發生的時候缺額還達到了610人就是大概有三分之一的人員在編制裡面沒有補足\n\n9\n00:03:21,397 --> 00:03:47,308\n那更有一些律師也指出來一個社工平均要處理90件的家暴通報案件那扣除大家要做的行政與管理人力那個實際的負荷是非常驚人的那剛才我們也都提到保護令不是發下去就結束而是必須要有具體的人力將保護令的這整個的概念來落實成行動那麼社工人力的不足\n\n10\n00:03:47,788 --> 00:04:05,954\n其實有點像是我們對被害人說你們自己小心一點好自為之所以就導致剛才我們有人在討論這個保護令到底有沒有用所以目前我來請教衛福部部社工的缺額是不是有一個結構性影響家暴實質處理的風險\n\n11\n00:04:07,515 --> 00:04:35,956\n介入那缺額怎麼樣補足那這個風險如何介入喔這是第一個問題那目前你們有沒有這個補足缺額的改善計畫跟時程那有沒有考慮將保護性的社工與案件比例來做一個明定或納入加防中心的評鑑或各縣市政府考積來確保整個案件的品質現在已經不是只有數量問題那本席建議啦我們是不是來比照護理人員的護病比\n\n12\n00:04:36,756 --> 00:04:51,765\n將每位社工可承擔案件的上限制定出來然後讓前線的志工有時間做真正的風險評估跟人身的保護而不是永遠疲於奔命那他們其實還要處理一些行政的問題那就導致這樣悲劇發生我們又再來討論\n\n13\n00:04:54,907 --> 00:05:21,238\n那另外呢在第一線有督導指出社會安全網的社工起薪大概四五萬家房中心的社工大概四萬三那麼就新鮮人的起薪這樣還算可以但是目前的薪資漲幅有限那相關的配套其實還有機會精進所以衛福部這邊有沒有一些檢討要增加投入社工領域的誘因跟保障那這個部分是不是以上幾個問題可不可以簡短的做一個回應\n\n14\n00:05:22,578 --> 00:05:45,204\n非常感謝林委員對於這個問題的關心我首先必須要說這個圖騰這個案件我真的是非常痛心那我們現在目前我也跟委員報告就是說這個其實整個有關保護性業務還有你說家暴我也必須要在這邊非常感謝我們的法務部檢察官還有我們的警政還有我們的法官還有其實裡面事實上是一個整個網絡\n\n15\n00:05:46,284 --> 00:05:58,879\n那這裡面當然主責是我們的保護性社工但是這整個事實上是一個整個社會安全網的一個整個網路的關係我剛才指出來這幾個問題你們是不是已經有在做或者是已經在研議未來要做是的\n\n16\n00:06:01,681 --> 00:06:25,354\n所以剛剛說第一點是網絡合作另外第二就是說您剛剛有問社工的部分我們現在您剛剛說是1比90我們現在目前是這樣如果說是那個成人保護的話應該是1比案量應該是1比30啦而保的話則是1比25那我們確實現在目前像委員剛剛所說的我們現在目前確實有這個整個社工他的整個overloaded的這個問題所以你們現在處理方式跟未來改善的方式要積極要趕快要來補足我們現在目前的這個社工那有時程嗎\n\n17\n00:06:30,376 --> 00:06:51,007\n有跟我們報告我們現在目前其實社安網我們現在目前已經我們有1.0已經大概完成現在準備要跟院那邊提出2.0那這裡面其實就有包括您剛剛所說的有關於社工同仁他的整個人員的我們原本現在缺了大約三分之一那怎麼樣在什麼時間內你們可以補足多少這個有一個進度嗎\n\n18\n00:06:52,768 --> 00:07:19,055\n我們現在目前的整個社交網路還是你們要不要提供一個比較詳細的書面資料給我那就我剛才談的這個數據性的問題然後跟實質薪酬制度上你們目前的一個做法所以我這邊也有先提出跟提醒你們那在薪資的這個漲幅你們可能也要考慮進去要不然就會跟你們其他護理人員這樣子的一個問題其實一直都存在那我跟委員報告我們在保護性社工其實比起一般社工同仁事實上我們事實上是有一個整個佳績\n\n19\n00:07:19,815 --> 00:07:41,040\n我們有一個那所以加擠的這個部分是不是跟我這邊講出來的落差你們也算一下然後讓我這邊知道好不好好的好的那接下來我們來探討一下那個橫向通報跟高風險個案的這個識別問題那有一些學者提出來就是說這個制度最危險的72小時內除了通知對於實質防護的介入與當事人這個雙方心理處遇的問題其實有待加強\n\n20\n00:07:47,482 --> 00:08:09,970\n那我們這個制度是不是在改善的關鍵針對有前科自制力低甚至可能有精神問題的這個對象可不可以有沒有建立風險的識別跟加強性追蹤的系統是不是先就這個部分來回應是我跟委員報告我們現在事實上我們有一個那個TIPTIFDA的一個量表這事實上就是所謂的風險就是說這個加害所以針對這個量表\n\n21\n00:08:13,592 --> 00:08:23,605\n討論出來的人評鑑出來的人你們有一些追蹤系統嗎包圍有我們現在它有一個分數啦分數大於5的話那這樣我們就會有一個整個追蹤對於這個加害人的一個整個追蹤的機制\n\n22\n00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:56,897\n好那那個你可不可以給我相關的這個細節書面講比較清楚因為你們口頭回應我都沒有一個數據的這個概念好好不好沒問題那另外在這個還有僅靠社工跟警察在繁重業務下來進行這樣一個經驗評估是恰當嗎土城殺人案當中就是檢方警方還有社政單位你們每一個單位都依法了可是在處置上卻又發生了憾事所以我們想請教\n\n23\n00:08:58,078 --> 00:09:25,289\n各部會啦那目前因為是我今天可能著重在這個衛福部你們認為目前的橫向通報溝通是很有效度的一個保護機制嗎有沒有高風險個案快速的一個反應機制讓檢警社工警察醫療心理方面的人能夠很快的將這樣一個連結系統來建立所以在保護令合法的72小時之內那高風險的一個監督可以進入預防的介入你們目前有嗎\n\n24\n00:09:26,249 --> 00:09:37,974\n包委有我們如果說一旦有發生這個事情的時候其實我們這裡面有一個整個通報還有一個整個橫向聯繫的機制那我也跟委員報告為了時間上我們前天才剛開完一個檢討會議我也必須要說就是說在整個保護令核發的過程裡面其實整個我們警政同仁還有我們社工同仁這邊要提供給檢方這邊我想我們的一些相關的資料\n\n25\n00:09:54,881 --> 00:09:58,066\n司法院有一個問題很快要請教因為上次也是時間關係就沒有列入公報那這邊\n\n26\n00:10:13,793 --> 00:10:22,001\n這個問題是有關於你們民事訴訟跟非訟事件的裁判費的調整措施本席在4月9號是你們的訴訟廳長在這邊他說要給本席一個報告然後10號應該是蜂蜜署長在這邊但是你們廳長這邊也沒有給我報告\n\n27\n00:10:30,689 --> 00:10:47,496\n那這個問題其實是蠻多的我可能在這邊先提一下未來有機會我還會再監督這件事所以上次我跟副秘書長在談到你們這個訴訟費調整的一個措施你那時候可能不太清楚這件事情後來我相信你也有查了\n\n28\n00:10:47,836 --> 00:11:09,532\n所以其他的委員會跟您在詢問的時候也有做了一些回應但是本席在這邊要提的就是說你們在這個雖然你們的原因是因為物價跟行政成本上升所以你們做了一個非送事件跟民事訴訟的裁判費的一個調整但是這個措施其實有幾個狀況本席這邊要來提出來\n\n29\n00:11:12,995 --> 00:11:33,222\n你們在訴訟標的在新台幣十萬元以下裁判費就增加了五成基本上就一半了那第二個部分是在十萬到一千萬之間的增加了三成那麼非財非產權事件在審申請跟抗告案件一律都加徵五成雖然二十幾年沒有調\n\n30\n00:11:33,962 --> 00:11:47,434\n但是這樣子的這個調升那是不是對中小企業來講衝擊是非常的大那麼對當然企業如果比較大他的資本比較雄厚或許影響沒有那麼大但是對中小企業來講應該是非常大的\n\n31\n00:11:49,215 --> 00:11:58,488\n那尤其對一般民眾這個影響應該是更大這是本席上次要提出來的但是因為第一天是4月9號這個廳長後來他也沒有來跟我做一個專案報告他當場是承諾說應該要來做一個專案報告這樣\n\n32\n00:12:06,038 --> 00:12:21,653\n但是隔一天是您這邊您大概也知道這個那天我看我們也沒有機會討論來溝通但是後續我就不知道這個部分您所了解的一個狀況最主要是你們廳長沒有來跟我們做專案報告所以我們也\n\n33\n00:12:22,754 --> 00:12:34,498\n民眾所碰到的這些問題其實我們也希望藉這個機會來反映所以以司法院來講當然你們透過物價調升一個成本導向的看法來調升這樣一個\n\n34\n00:12:39,059 --> 00:12:56,484\n訴訟費但是呢對於一般民眾好像財產爭議啊身份確認家事的這個糾紛或原本對裁判不服的這樣一個救濟程序都因為你們的調生而產生的影響這衝擊是非常大的這個是實質上的一個問題但是另外也就是說你們在以這樣子一個\n\n35\n00:12:58,544 --> 00:13:22,197\n行政成本的提高來調升的情況下你們在調升的時候也沒有充分告知跟有一些討論所以導致本席剛才講的一般民眾其實有一些影響那針對低收入戶中低收入戶或者是公益訴訟當事人我想影響更大你們有沒有可能在這個部分有一些彈性的減免機制\n\n36\n00:13:23,018 --> 00:13:50,569\n那個首先我先回答最後一個問題就是有關於就是說如果那個當事人他因為經濟上那個弱勢而沒有辦法就是使用那個來打訴訟的話那這個為了確保人民的這個司法禁用權跟訴訟權法律實際上都有設計這個訴訟救助那個訴訟救助的這個制度他其實是可以來利用的所以你們有針對他們有一些彈性的責免機制的一個設計嗎\n\n37\n00:13:52,791 --> 00:14:04,821\n那你可以簡單的回應嗎?就是他可以向那個法院申請就是說先剛開始的時候可以免納就是這個訴訟就做了那個開始的時候免納那以後他再慢慢還的意思嗎?\n\n38\n00:14:08,804 --> 00:14:25,803\n跟委員報告訴訟就做裁定准許以後就免納裁判費跟訴訟程序桌所應繳的費用是減掉一部分的費用就全免然後等到訴訟結果出來以後再依照訴訟判決的訴訟費用負擔去做最後的執行例如說是被告負擔就直接向被告徵繳\n\n39\n00:14:26,624 --> 00:14:46,412\n因為基本上就會有兩兆不是被告那就是原告要負擔這個費用嗎對因為民事部都會有訴訟費用本席講的是因為你們調升了這個費用但是可能在一開始對於民眾他們就會因為這個費用而不去做這個處理那這個部分可能我在講說因為費用很高所以他可能連啟動都沒有啟動\n\n40\n00:14:47,472 --> 00:15:07,932\n或是他會擔心後續這個其實所謂這個調升多少這個事實上我們當時都有做過非常多的那個研究就是說最大的一個幅度是十萬元以下的調成那個五成聽起來好像非常龐大那可是實際上呢他是一千元\n\n41\n00:15:09,153 --> 00:15:32,983\n回到那個裁判費本身是一千元變成了一千五百元就是多了五就是你先講一千元嘛如果他的那個費用基本上是高的那這個五成是很高吧所以我們五成就是十萬元以下的就是標的是十萬元以下那其實一般民眾就是說我覺得增下一半也很多通常我們在調生的時候就是五百塊啊就是十萬元以下的五百塊對你來講可能是\n\n42\n00:15:34,023 --> 00:15:38,785\n呃不多但是對一般民眾來講它就會成為一種考量那這個比例上是非常高的跟委員報告齁其實那個調整除了就是反應物價之外也有一個很大的就是事實上是一個策略的一個考量那你的意思是說你們東西如果不是很重要的時候你就不要來進入這個程序\n\n43\n00:15:51,690 --> 00:16:18,208\n在我國我們有很多就是訴訟以外的ADR的一些制度啊像是那個鄉鎮調解或者說到法院來的時候有很多調解跟和解的這些那個機制那我們也希望說民眾就是說如果說他下來的這些財產權事實上是在的這些爭議是在幾萬元就是不是這些那個龐大化他們可以先使用就是說法院以外的訴訟以外的這一些那個制度\n\n44\n00:16:23,831 --> 00:16:41,582\n訴訟費調升是也變成是對於民眾的一種門檻那民眾自己要去做一些分門別類的這個了解然後先不要就這條路線去處理他的訴訟跟究竟他可以去選擇他可以去多去講得好聽一點是他可以去選擇啦那講得比較實務的部分呢因為進入訴訟事實上是一個非常\n\n45\n00:16:44,704 --> 00:17:11,158\n複雜跟一個非常龐大的一個程序但是就是說基本上你們也拿這個訴訟費的提高作為一個門檻我想那是一個比例原則啊那是一個比例原則就是我們調高的事實上是額度就是說他那個請這樣好了本席可以請教所以你們在這個過程當中有充分跟民眾來告知或者是在決定調升的過程當中有民眾的參與嗎有學者的參與嗎那個委員那個因為我是那個就是當時\n\n46\n00:17:12,819 --> 00:17:39,018\n政策在形成的時候我還沒有到司法院來服務那所以這個部分委員我可能還要回去再做多一些資料來跟委員報告對那個專案報告不要忘了就說你們上次答應從4月到7月現在很久了這個很抱歉這個我們不知道我們還沒有提出去第二個那我的重點就是說你剛剛也提到說這樣也是一個門檻讓民眾自行先去了解跟這個延期他要在哪一個程度就法律面或者是非法律的救濟途徑\n\n47\n00:17:39,838 --> 00:17:56,846\n那這個其實民眾就要在法律的這個概念上基本上要提高很多那這個門檻是不是適用我們司法院其實做蠻多宣導了就是說民眾可以多使用這些那個替代措施就是所謂的那個ADR就是說像對啊到鄉鎮條件專業來講我們都知道這個是什麼但是就一般民眾\n\n48\n00:18:01,448 --> 00:18:25,955\n就像剛才我們有委員提出來,尤其是吳委員我們招委,我就想說一般民眾他只管他的權益,也就是說政府你能夠做什麼,但是政府我們不應該就是說,那麼為了我們的這個,我們不能說我們的方便,但是就是說你看那個訴訟費的增加成為一個門檻,那民眾要做很多他們非專業的事情,他可能就會覺得有些東西有一點overloading,\n\n49\n00:18:26,415 --> 00:18:42,923\n所以本席這邊指出來的是說當你們覺得它可以是一個門檻的同時對民眾來講可能就是一個障礙那這個部分是不是請您在那個過程去了解這個相關的過程記錄的同時也納入一下考量因為就本席知道這個案件的這個過程當中你們這個宣告的時間可能也不夠長\n\n50\n00:18:47,665 --> 00:19:10,157\n再來過程當中是不是有充分跟相關的食物界學界民間的表述有充分的這個溝通其實這個是本席最關心的但是因為你們一下子在去年就突然調升了那經常會使用到的人他就會有很大的衝擊我現在手上兩個那個資料一個是跟向委員報告這個資料在5月18號的時候就已經送達\n\n51\n00:19:11,218 --> 00:19:17,622\n委員這邊你們說要來做一個專案報告啊對你們有那個相關的資料另外先前在政策行程的時候有開過諮詢會議先前有開過諮詢會議對那諮詢會議的這個比例跟結構比如說民間多少人那食物界多少人\n\n52\n00:19:30,708 --> 00:19:56,334\n所以你知道我的重點嗎就是說你們在這個過程當中有沒有充分考慮到各方面的一個衝擊當然對你們來講你說二十幾年沒有調生那在這個時候調生好像也是做一個整理跟檢討但是那麼長的時間那在這個時間點一調生的幅度那麼高這樣子合不合適那第二個部分是那當它作為一個門檻那對民眾來講是不是增加了困難度這個是我一個重點\n\n53\n00:19:57,274 --> 00:20:23,589\n再來是你們雖然也剛才您說你們有做一些宣導所以這個宣導的效能跟你們有時候講了那講了呢民眾知不知道他的困難點在哪裡還是說你們就是講了但是民眾的困難其實還一直存在所以這是本席的幾個重點好不好那請你回去如果說那個時候您還沒有到職那可不可以看一下相關的這個資料然後再給本席一個比較完整的一個回應好嗎\n\n54\n00:20:24,389 --> 00:20:35,275\n好的這件事情我會一直提啦所以請你們還是確認一下看這整個過程當中合不合適然後尤其是對民眾的衝擊這個是我們最關心的好不好好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10936\t22514\t好 謝謝三位我先交代一下背景那感謝主席然後服務委員同仁非常感謝主席今天那我們一起來針對這個\n25768\t47420\t保護令是不是萬能然後如何避免我們最近看到的這個個案的憾事在發生本席這邊有些看法所以不好意思 需要請那個官員上台嗎可能待會第一個會先請衛福部長待會再請嗎對對對 我先交代一下衛福部次長 次次長 部長先離開部長已經先離開了嗎好 謝謝\n52206\t80222\t好 沒關係啦那因為土城這個案我想讓大家都非常矚目那剛才我們也在今天的會議裡面大家在討論有關於保護令的重要與否那當然也有比較我們法界的專家都提到了這個檢察官生壓的重要性那今天我們就這個案件來討論它不是一個單一個案我們就從個案裡面來看一個國家保護機制在\n81722\t100993\t維護人民安全的這樣一個關鍵時刻失靈的制度性問題衛福部你們在先前的這個家庭暴力通報案件在2020年就有大約15萬件一直到2024已經到18萬件了剛才也委員指出來這樣子的案件越來越多\n102274\t126289\t然後在案件當中呢親密關係的暴力是最多的那佔了幾乎一半通報的這個一半的數量那被害人主要都以女性為主佔比已經到了七成所以就有一些研究就開始指出國內的這個親密關係的暴力從發生到正式通報的時間現在已經有點縮短大概在平均\n127530\t141771\t4.2年那我們的看法我這邊的看法是應該社會大眾目前對於通報意識的這個意願有逐漸提高所以也讓通報率有增加是的沒錯那這個數字本席這邊看到兩件事\n142332\t170832\t第一個是國人對於家暴的敏感度有加強所以拒絕沉默的觀念也比較普及了那第二個部分應該是這個案件量也勢必提升從現在開始那麼國家是否已經準備好接受這樣高通報時代的制度會有一些挑戰那風險又如何控管我想這是我們今天在討論本席這邊待會要來跟你們就教的一些核心問題\n172253\t200677\t所以我們先談一下保護性社工的量能所以在保護性社工量能跟落實的部分根據全國的資料跟時事的新聞目前整個國家應該來配置1985名的保護性的社工但是到今年7月案件發生的時候缺額還達到了610人就是大概有三分之一的人員在編制裡面沒有補足\n201397\t227308\t那更有一些律師也指出來一個社工平均要處理90件的家暴通報案件那扣除大家要做的行政與管理人力那個實際的負荷是非常驚人的那剛才我們也都提到保護令不是發下去就結束而是必須要有具體的人力將保護令的這整個的概念來落實成行動那麼社工人力的不足\n227788\t245954\t其實有點像是我們對被害人說你們自己小心一點好自為之所以就導致剛才我們有人在討論這個保護令到底有沒有用所以目前我來請教衛福部部社工的缺額是不是有一個結構性影響家暴實質處理的風險\n247515\t275956\t介入那缺額怎麼樣補足那這個風險如何介入喔這是第一個問題那目前你們有沒有這個補足缺額的改善計畫跟時程那有沒有考慮將保護性的社工與案件比例來做一個明定或納入加防中心的評鑑或各縣市政府考積來確保整個案件的品質現在已經不是只有數量問題那本席建議啦我們是不是來比照護理人員的護病比\n276756\t291765\t將每位社工可承擔案件的上限制定出來然後讓前線的志工有時間做真正的風險評估跟人身的保護而不是永遠疲於奔命那他們其實還要處理一些行政的問題那就導致這樣悲劇發生我們又再來討論\n294907\t321238\t那另外呢在第一線有督導指出社會安全網的社工起薪大概四五萬家房中心的社工大概四萬三那麼就新鮮人的起薪這樣還算可以但是目前的薪資漲幅有限那相關的配套其實還有機會精進所以衛福部這邊有沒有一些檢討要增加投入社工領域的誘因跟保障那這個部分是不是以上幾個問題可不可以簡短的做一個回應\n322578\t345204\t非常感謝林委員對於這個問題的關心我首先必須要說這個圖騰這個案件我真的是非常痛心那我們現在目前我也跟委員報告就是說這個其實整個有關保護性業務還有你說家暴我也必須要在這邊非常感謝我們的法務部檢察官還有我們的警政還有我們的法官還有其實裡面事實上是一個整個網絡\n346284\t358879\t那這裡面當然主責是我們的保護性社工但是這整個事實上是一個整個社會安全網的一個整個網路的關係我剛才指出來這幾個問題你們是不是已經有在做或者是已經在研議未來要做是的\n361681\t385354\t所以剛剛說第一點是網絡合作另外第二就是說您剛剛有問社工的部分我們現在您剛剛說是1比90我們現在目前是這樣如果說是那個成人保護的話應該是1比 案量應該是1比30啦而保的話則是1比25那我們確實現在目前像委員剛剛所說的我們現在目前確實有這個整個社工他的整個overloaded的這個問題所以你們現在處理方式跟未來改善的方式要積極要趕快要來補足我們現在目前的這個社工那有時程嗎\n390376\t411007\t有 跟我們報告 我們現在目前 其實社安網我們現在目前已經 我們有1.0 已經大概完成現在準備要跟院那邊提出2.0那這裡面其實就有包括您剛剛所說的有關於社工同仁他的整個人員的我們原本現在缺了大約三分之一那怎麼樣 在什麼時間內你們可以補足多少這個有一個進度嗎\n412768\t439055\t我們現在目前的整個社交網路還是你們要不要提供一個比較詳細的書面資料給我那就我剛才談的這個數據性的問題然後跟實質薪酬制度上你們目前的一個做法所以我這邊也有先提出跟提醒你們那在薪資的這個漲幅你們可能也要考慮進去要不然就會跟你們其他護理人員這樣子的一個問題其實一直都存在那我跟委員報告我們在保護性社工其實比起一般社工同仁事實上我們事實上是有一個整個佳績\n439815\t461040\t我們有一個那所以加擠的這個部分是不是跟我這邊講出來的落差你們也算一下然後讓我這邊知道好不好好的好的那接下來我們來探討一下那個橫向通報跟高風險個案的這個識別問題那有一些學者提出來就是說這個制度最危險的72小時內除了通知對於實質防護的介入與當事人這個雙方心理處遇的問題其實有待加強\n467482\t489970\t那我們這個制度是不是在改善的關鍵針對有前科自制力低甚至可能有精神問題的這個對象可不可以有沒有建立風險的識別跟加強性追蹤的系統是不是先就這個部分來回應是 我跟委員報告我們現在事實上我們有一個那個TIPTIFDA的一個量表這事實上就是所謂的風險就是說這個加害所以針對這個量表\n493592\t503605\t討論出來的人 評鑑出來的人 你們有一些追蹤系統嗎包圍 有 我們現在 它有一個分數啦分數大於5的話 那這樣我們就會有一個整個追蹤對於這個加害人的一個整個追蹤的機制\n508760\t536897\t好 那那個你可不可以給我相關的這個細節書面講比較清楚因為你們口頭回應我都沒有一個數據的這個概念好 好不好沒問題那另外在這個還有僅靠社工跟警察在繁重業務下來進行這樣一個經驗評估是恰當嗎土城殺人案當中就是檢方 警方還有社政單位你們每一個單位都依法了可是在處置上卻又發生了憾事所以我們想請教\n538078\t565289\t各部會啦 那目前因為是我今天可能著重在這個衛福部你們認為目前的橫向通報溝通是很有效度的一個保護機制嗎有沒有高風險個案快速的一個反應機制讓檢警 社工 警察 醫療 心理方面的人能夠很快的將這樣一個連結系統來建立所以在保護令合法的72小時之內那高風險的一個監督可以進入預防的介入你們目前有嗎\n566249\t577974\t包委有 我們如果說一旦有發生這個事情的時候其實我們這裡面有一個整個通報還有一個整個橫向聯繫的機制那我也跟委員報告為了時間上我們前天才剛開完一個檢討會議我也必須要說就是說在整個保護令核發的過程裡面其實整個我們警政同仁還有我們社工同仁這邊要提供給檢方這邊我想我們的一些相關的資料\n594881\t598066\t司法院有一個問題很快要請教因為上次也是時間關係就沒有列入公報那這邊\n613793\t622001\t這個問題是有關於你們民事訴訟跟非訟事件的裁判費的調整措施本席在4月9號是你們的訴訟廳長在這邊他說要給本席一個報告然後10號應該是蜂蜜署長在這邊但是你們廳長這邊也沒有給我報告\n630689\t647496\t那這個問題其實是蠻多的我可能在這邊先提一下未來有機會我還會再監督這件事所以上次我跟副秘書長在談到你們這個訴訟費調整的一個措施你那時候可能不太清楚這件事情後來我相信你也有查了\n647836\t669532\t所以其他的委員會跟您在詢問的時候也有做了一些回應但是本席在這邊要提的就是說你們在這個雖然你們的原因是因為物價跟行政成本上升所以你們做了一個非送事件跟民事訴訟的裁判費的一個調整但是這個措施其實有幾個狀況本席這邊要來提出來\n672995\t693222\t你們在訴訟標的在新台幣十萬元以下裁判費就增加了五成基本上就一半了那第二個部分是在十萬到一千萬之間的增加了三成那麼非財非產權事件在審申請跟抗告案件一律都加徵五成雖然二十幾年沒有調\n693962\t707434\t但是這樣子的這個調升那是不是對中小企業來講衝擊是非常的大那麼對當然企業如果比較大他的資本比較雄厚或許影響沒有那麼大但是對中小企業來講應該是非常大的\n709215\t718488\t那尤其對一般民眾這個影響應該是更大這是本席上次要提出來的但是因為第一天是4月9號這個廳長後來他也沒有來跟我做一個專案報告他當場是承諾說應該要來做一個專案報告這樣\n726038\t741653\t但是隔一天是您這邊 您大概也知道這個那天我看我們也沒有機會討論來溝通但是後續我就不知道這個部分您所了解的一個狀況最主要是你們廳長沒有來跟我們做專案報告所以我們也\n742754\t754498\t民眾所碰到的這些問題其實我們也希望藉這個機會來反映所以以司法院來講當然你們透過物價調升一個成本導向的看法來調升這樣一個\n759059\t776484\t訴訟費但是呢對於一般民眾好像財產爭議啊身份確認家事的這個糾紛或原本對裁判不服的這樣一個救濟程序都因為你們的調生而產生的影響這衝擊是非常大的這個是實質上的一個問題但是另外也就是說你們在以這樣子一個\n778544\t802197\t行政成本的提高來調升的情況下你們在調升的時候也沒有充分告知跟有一些討論所以導致本席剛才講的一般民眾其實有一些影響那針對低收入戶中低收入戶或者是公益訴訟當事人我想影響更大你們有沒有可能在這個部分有一些彈性的減免機制\n803018\t830569\t那個首先我先回答最後一個問題就是有關於就是說如果那個當事人他因為經濟上那個弱勢而沒有辦法就是使用那個來打訴訟的話那這個為了確保人民的這個司法禁用權跟訴訟權法律實際上都有設計這個訴訟救助那個訴訟救助的這個制度他其實是可以來利用的所以你們有針對他們有一些彈性的責免機制的一個設計嗎\n832791\t844821\t那你可以簡單的回應嗎?就是他可以向那個法院申請就是說先剛開始的時候可以免納就是這個訴訟就做了那個開始的時候免納那以後他再慢慢還的意思嗎?\n848804\t865803\t跟委員報告 訴訟就做裁定准許以後就免納裁判費跟訴訟程序桌所應繳的費用是減掉一部分的費用就全免然後等到訴訟結果出來以後再依照訴訟判決的訴訟費用負擔去做最後的執行例如說是被告負擔就直接向被告徵繳\n866624\t886412\t因為基本上就會有兩兆 不是被告 那就是原告要負擔這個費用嗎對 因為民事部都會有訴訟費用本席講的是 因為你們調升了這個費用但是可能在一開始對於民眾他們就會因為這個費用而不去做這個處理那這個部分可能 我在講說因為費用很高 所以他可能連啟動都沒有啟動\n887472\t907932\t或是他會擔心後續這個其實所謂這個調升多少這個事實上我們當時都有做過非常多的那個研究就是說最大的一個幅度是十萬元以下的調成那個五成聽起來好像非常龐大那可是實際上呢他是一千元\n909153\t932983\t回到那個裁判費本身是一千元變成了一千五百元就是多了五就是你先講一千元嘛如果他的那個費用基本上是高的那這個五成是很高吧所以我們五成就是十萬元以下的就是標的是十萬元以下那其實一般民眾就是說我覺得增下一半也很多通常我們在調生的時候就是五百塊啊就是十萬元以下的五百塊對你來講可能是\n934023\t938785\t呃 不多 但是對一般民眾來講它就會成為一種考量那這個比例上是非常高的跟委員報告齁 其實那個調整除了就是反應物價之外也有一個很大的就是事實上是一個策略的一個考量那你的意思是說你們東西如果不是很重要的時候你就不要來進入這個程序\n951690\t978208\t在我國我們有很多就是訴訟以外的ADR的一些制度啊像是那個鄉鎮調解或者說到法院來的時候有很多調解跟和解的這些那個機制那我們也希望說民眾就是說如果說他下來的這些財產權事實上是在的這些爭議是在幾萬元就是不是這些那個龐大化他們可以先使用就是說法院以外的訴訟以外的這一些那個制度\n983831\t1001582\t訴訟費調升是也變成是對於民眾的一種門檻那民眾自己要去做一些分門別類的這個了解然後先不要就這條路線去處理他的訴訟跟究竟他可以去選擇他可以去多去講得好聽一點是他可以去選擇啦那講得比較實務的部分呢因為進入訴訟事實上是一個非常\n1004704\t1031158\t複雜跟一個非常龐大的一個程序但是就是說基本上你們也拿這個訴訟費的提高作為一個門檻我想那是一個比例原則啊那是一個比例原則就是我們調高的事實上是額度就是說他那個請這樣好了本席可以請教所以你們在這個過程當中有充分跟民眾來告知或者是在決定調升的過程當中有民眾的參與嗎有學者的參與嗎那個委員那個因為我是那個就是當時\n1032819\t1059018\t政策在形成的時候我還沒有到司法院來服務那所以這個部分委員我可能還要回去再做多一些資料來跟委員報告對 那個專案報告不要忘了就說你們上次答應從4月到7月現在很久了這個很抱歉 這個我們不知道我們還沒有提出去第二個 那我的重點就是說你剛剛也提到說這樣也是一個門檻讓民眾自行先去了解跟這個延期他要在哪一個程度就法律面或者是非法律的救濟途徑\n1059838\t1076846\t那這個其實民眾就要在法律的這個概念上基本上要提高很多那這個門檻是不是適用我們司法院其實做蠻多宣導了就是說民眾可以多使用這些那個替代措施就是所謂的那個ADR就是說像對啊到鄉鎮條件專業來講我們都知道這個是什麼但是就一般民眾\n1081448\t1105955\t就像剛才我們有委員提出來,尤其是吳委員我們招委,我就想說一般民眾他只管他的權益,也就是說政府你能夠做什麼,但是政府我們不應該就是說,那麼為了我們的這個,我們不能說我們的方便,但是就是說你看那個訴訟費的增加成為一個門檻,那民眾要做很多他們非專業的事情,他可能就會覺得有些東西有一點overloading,\n1106415\t1122923\t所以本席這邊指出來的是說當你們覺得它可以是一個門檻的同時對民眾來講可能就是一個障礙那這個部分是不是請您在那個過程去了解這個相關的過程記錄的同時也納入一下考量因為就本席知道這個案件的這個過程當中你們這個宣告的時間可能也不夠長\n1127665\t1150157\t再來過程當中是不是有充分跟相關的食物界學界民間的表述有充分的這個溝通其實這個是本席最關心的但是因為你們一下子在去年就突然調升了那經常會使用到的人他就會有很大的衝擊我現在手上兩個那個資料一個是跟向委員報告這個資料在5月18號的時候就已經送達\n1151218\t1157622\t委員這邊你們說要來做一個專案報告啊對你們有那個相關的資料另外先前在政策行程的時候有開過諮詢會議先前有開過諮詢會議對那諮詢會議的這個比例跟結構比如說民間多少人那食物界多少人\n1170708\t1196334\t所以你知道我的重點嗎就是說你們在這個過程當中有沒有充分考慮到各方面的一個衝擊當然對你們來講你說二十幾年沒有調生那在這個時候調生好像也是做一個整理跟檢討但是那麼長的時間那在這個時間點一調生的幅度那麼高這樣子合不合適那第二個部分是那當它作為一個門檻那對民眾來講是不是增加了困難度這個是我一個重點\n1197274\t1223589\t再來是你們雖然也剛才您說你們有做一些宣導所以這個宣導的效能跟你們有時候講了那講了呢民眾知不知道他的困難點在哪裡還是說你們就是講了但是民眾的困難其實還一直存在所以這是本席的幾個重點好不好那請你回去如果說那個時候您還沒有到職那可不可以看一下相關的這個資料然後再給本席一個比較完整的一個回應好嗎\n1224389\t1235275\t好的 這件事情我會一直提啦所以請你們還是確認一下看這整個過程當中 合不合適然後尤其是對民眾的衝擊這個是我們最關心的 好不好好 謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝三位我先交代一下背景那感謝主席然後服務委員同仁非常感謝主席今天那我們一起來針對這個\n保護令是不是萬能然後如何避免我們最近看到的這個個案的憾事在發生本席這邊有些看法所以不好意思 需要請那個官員上台嗎可能待會第一個會先請衛福部長待會再請嗎對對對 我先交代一下衛福部次長 次次長 部長先離開部長已經先離開了嗎好 謝謝\n好 沒關係啦那因為土城這個案我想讓大家都非常矚目那剛才我們也在今天的會議裡面大家在討論有關於保護令的重要與否那當然也有比較我們法界的專家都提到了這個檢察官生壓的重要性那今天我們就這個案件來討論它不是一個單一個案我們就從個案裡面來看一個國家保護機制在\n維護人民安全的這樣一個關鍵時刻失靈的制度性問題衛福部你們在先前的這個家庭暴力通報案件在2020年就有大約15萬件一直到2024已經到18萬件了剛才也委員指出來這樣子的案件越來越多\n然後在案件當中呢親密關係的暴力是最多的那佔了幾乎一半通報的這個一半的數量那被害人主要都以女性為主佔比已經到了七成所以就有一些研究就開始指出國內的這個親密關係的暴力從發生到正式通報的時間現在已經有點縮短大概在平均\n4.2年那我們的看法我這邊的看法是應該社會大眾目前對於通報意識的這個意願有逐漸提高所以也讓通報率有增加是的沒錯那這個數字本席這邊看到兩件事\n第一個是國人對於家暴的敏感度有加強所以拒絕沉默的觀念也比較普及了那第二個部分應該是這個案件量也勢必提升從現在開始那麼國家是否已經準備好接受這樣高通報時代的制度會有一些挑戰那風險又如何控管我想這是我們今天在討論本席這邊待會要來跟你們就教的一些核心問題\n所以我們先談一下保護性社工的量能所以在保護性社工量能跟落實的部分根據全國的資料跟時事的新聞目前整個國家應該來配置1985名的保護性的社工但是到今年7月案件發生的時候缺額還達到了610人就是大概有三分之一的人員在編制裡面沒有補足\n那更有一些律師也指出來一個社工平均要處理90件的家暴通報案件那扣除大家要做的行政與管理人力那個實際的負荷是非常驚人的那剛才我們也都提到保護令不是發下去就結束而是必須要有具體的人力將保護令的這整個的概念來落實成行動那麼社工人力的不足\n其實有點像是我們對被害人說你們自己小心一點好自為之所以就導致剛才我們有人在討論這個保護令到底有沒有用所以目前我來請教衛福部部社工的缺額是不是有一個結構性影響家暴實質處理的風險\n介入那缺額怎麼樣補足那這個風險如何介入喔這是第一個問題那目前你們有沒有這個補足缺額的改善計畫跟時程那有沒有考慮將保護性的社工與案件比例來做一個明定或納入加防中心的評鑑或各縣市政府考積來確保整個案件的品質現在已經不是只有數量問題那本席建議啦我們是不是來比照護理人員的護病比\n將每位社工可承擔案件的上限制定出來然後讓前線的志工有時間做真正的風險評估跟人身的保護而不是永遠疲於奔命那他們其實還要處理一些行政的問題那就導致這樣悲劇發生我們又再來討論\n那另外呢在第一線有督導指出社會安全網的社工起薪大概四五萬家房中心的社工大概四萬三那麼就新鮮人的起薪這樣還算可以但是目前的薪資漲幅有限那相關的配套其實還有機會精進所以衛福部這邊有沒有一些檢討要增加投入社工領域的誘因跟保障那這個部分是不是以上幾個問題可不可以簡短的做一個回應\n非常感謝林委員對於這個問題的關心我首先必須要說這個圖騰這個案件我真的是非常痛心那我們現在目前我也跟委員報告就是說這個其實整個有關保護性業務還有你說家暴我也必須要在這邊非常感謝我們的法務部檢察官還有我們的警政還有我們的法官還有其實裡面事實上是一個整個網絡\n那這裡面當然主責是我們的保護性社工但是這整個事實上是一個整個社會安全網的一個整個網路的關係我剛才指出來這幾個問題你們是不是已經有在做或者是已經在研議未來要做是的\n所以剛剛說第一點是網絡合作另外第二就是說您剛剛有問社工的部分我們現在您剛剛說是1比90我們現在目前是這樣如果說是那個成人保護的話應該是1比 案量應該是1比30啦而保的話則是1比25那我們確實現在目前像委員剛剛所說的我們現在目前確實有這個整個社工他的整個overloaded的這個問題所以你們現在處理方式跟未來改善的方式要積極要趕快要來補足我們現在目前的這個社工那有時程嗎\n有 跟我們報告 我們現在目前 其實社安網我們現在目前已經 我們有1.0 已經大概完成現在準備要跟院那邊提出2.0那這裡面其實就有包括您剛剛所說的有關於社工同仁他的整個人員的我們原本現在缺了大約三分之一那怎麼樣 在什麼時間內你們可以補足多少這個有一個進度嗎\n我們現在目前的整個社交網路還是你們要不要提供一個比較詳細的書面資料給我那就我剛才談的這個數據性的問題然後跟實質薪酬制度上你們目前的一個做法所以我這邊也有先提出跟提醒你們那在薪資的這個漲幅你們可能也要考慮進去要不然就會跟你們其他護理人員這樣子的一個問題其實一直都存在那我跟委員報告我們在保護性社工其實比起一般社工同仁事實上我們事實上是有一個整個佳績\n我們有一個那所以加擠的這個部分是不是跟我這邊講出來的落差你們也算一下然後讓我這邊知道好不好好的好的那接下來我們來探討一下那個橫向通報跟高風險個案的這個識別問題那有一些學者提出來就是說這個制度最危險的72小時內除了通知對於實質防護的介入與當事人這個雙方心理處遇的問題其實有待加強\n那我們這個制度是不是在改善的關鍵針對有前科自制力低甚至可能有精神問題的這個對象可不可以有沒有建立風險的識別跟加強性追蹤的系統是不是先就這個部分來回應是 我跟委員報告我們現在事實上我們有一個那個TIPTIFDA的一個量表這事實上就是所謂的風險就是說這個加害所以針對這個量表\n討論出來的人 評鑑出來的人 你們有一些追蹤系統嗎包圍 有 我們現在 它有一個分數啦分數大於5的話 那這樣我們就會有一個整個追蹤對於這個加害人的一個整個追蹤的機制\n好 那那個你可不可以給我相關的這個細節書面講比較清楚因為你們口頭回應我都沒有一個數據的這個概念好 好不好沒問題那另外在這個還有僅靠社工跟警察在繁重業務下來進行這樣一個經驗評估是恰當嗎土城殺人案當中就是檢方 警方還有社政單位你們每一個單位都依法了可是在處置上卻又發生了憾事所以我們想請教\n各部會啦 那目前因為是我今天可能著重在這個衛福部你們認為目前的橫向通報溝通是很有效度的一個保護機制嗎有沒有高風險個案快速的一個反應機制讓檢警 社工 警察 醫療 心理方面的人能夠很快的將這樣一個連結系統來建立所以在保護令合法的72小時之內那高風險的一個監督可以進入預防的介入你們目前有嗎\n包委有 我們如果說一旦有發生這個事情的時候其實我們這裡面有一個整個通報還有一個整個橫向聯繫的機制那我也跟委員報告為了時間上我們前天才剛開完一個檢討會議我也必須要說就是說在整個保護令核發的過程裡面其實整個我們警政同仁還有我們社工同仁這邊要提供給檢方這邊我想我們的一些相關的資料\n司法院有一個問題很快要請教因為上次也是時間關係就沒有列入公報那這邊\n這個問題是有關於你們民事訴訟跟非訟事件的裁判費的調整措施本席在4月9號是你們的訴訟廳長在這邊他說要給本席一個報告然後10號應該是蜂蜜署長在這邊但是你們廳長這邊也沒有給我報告\n那這個問題其實是蠻多的我可能在這邊先提一下未來有機會我還會再監督這件事所以上次我跟副秘書長在談到你們這個訴訟費調整的一個措施你那時候可能不太清楚這件事情後來我相信你也有查了\n所以其他的委員會跟您在詢問的時候也有做了一些回應但是本席在這邊要提的就是說你們在這個雖然你們的原因是因為物價跟行政成本上升所以你們做了一個非送事件跟民事訴訟的裁判費的一個調整但是這個措施其實有幾個狀況本席這邊要來提出來\n你們在訴訟標的在新台幣十萬元以下裁判費就增加了五成基本上就一半了那第二個部分是在十萬到一千萬之間的增加了三成那麼非財非產權事件在審申請跟抗告案件一律都加徵五成雖然二十幾年沒有調\n但是這樣子的這個調升那是不是對中小企業來講衝擊是非常的大那麼對當然企業如果比較大他的資本比較雄厚或許影響沒有那麼大但是對中小企業來講應該是非常大的\n那尤其對一般民眾這個影響應該是更大這是本席上次要提出來的但是因為第一天是4月9號這個廳長後來他也沒有來跟我做一個專案報告他當場是承諾說應該要來做一個專案報告這樣\n但是隔一天是您這邊 您大概也知道這個那天我看我們也沒有機會討論來溝通但是後續我就不知道這個部分您所了解的一個狀況最主要是你們廳長沒有來跟我們做專案報告所以我們也\n民眾所碰到的這些問題其實我們也希望藉這個機會來反映所以以司法院來講當然你們透過物價調升一個成本導向的看法來調升這樣一個\n訴訟費但是呢對於一般民眾好像財產爭議啊身份確認家事的這個糾紛或原本對裁判不服的這樣一個救濟程序都因為你們的調生而產生的影響這衝擊是非常大的這個是實質上的一個問題但是另外也就是說你們在以這樣子一個\n行政成本的提高來調升的情況下你們在調升的時候也沒有充分告知跟有一些討論所以導致本席剛才講的一般民眾其實有一些影響那針對低收入戶中低收入戶或者是公益訴訟當事人我想影響更大你們有沒有可能在這個部分有一些彈性的減免機制\n那個首先我先回答最後一個問題就是有關於就是說如果那個當事人他因為經濟上那個弱勢而沒有辦法就是使用那個來打訴訟的話那這個為了確保人民的這個司法禁用權跟訴訟權法律實際上都有設計這個訴訟救助那個訴訟救助的這個制度他其實是可以來利用的所以你們有針對他們有一些彈性的責免機制的一個設計嗎\n那你可以簡單的回應嗎?就是他可以向那個法院申請就是說先剛開始的時候可以免納就是這個訴訟就做了那個開始的時候免納那以後他再慢慢還的意思嗎?\n跟委員報告 訴訟就做裁定准許以後就免納裁判費跟訴訟程序桌所應繳的費用是減掉一部分的費用就全免然後等到訴訟結果出來以後再依照訴訟判決的訴訟費用負擔去做最後的執行例如說是被告負擔就直接向被告徵繳\n因為基本上就會有兩兆 不是被告 那就是原告要負擔這個費用嗎對 因為民事部都會有訴訟費用本席講的是 因為你們調升了這個費用但是可能在一開始對於民眾他們就會因為這個費用而不去做這個處理那這個部分可能 我在講說因為費用很高 所以他可能連啟動都沒有啟動\n或是他會擔心後續這個其實所謂這個調升多少這個事實上我們當時都有做過非常多的那個研究就是說最大的一個幅度是十萬元以下的調成那個五成聽起來好像非常龐大那可是實際上呢他是一千元\n回到那個裁判費本身是一千元變成了一千五百元就是多了五就是你先講一千元嘛如果他的那個費用基本上是高的那這個五成是很高吧所以我們五成就是十萬元以下的就是標的是十萬元以下那其實一般民眾就是說我覺得增下一半也很多通常我們在調生的時候就是五百塊啊就是十萬元以下的五百塊對你來講可能是\n呃 不多 但是對一般民眾來講它就會成為一種考量那這個比例上是非常高的跟委員報告齁 其實那個調整除了就是反應物價之外也有一個很大的就是事實上是一個策略的一個考量那你的意思是說你們東西如果不是很重要的時候你就不要來進入這個程序\n在我國我們有很多就是訴訟以外的ADR的一些制度啊像是那個鄉鎮調解或者說到法院來的時候有很多調解跟和解的這些那個機制那我們也希望說民眾就是說如果說他下來的這些財產權事實上是在的這些爭議是在幾萬元就是不是這些那個龐大化他們可以先使用就是說法院以外的訴訟以外的這一些那個制度\n訴訟費調升是也變成是對於民眾的一種門檻那民眾自己要去做一些分門別類的這個了解然後先不要就這條路線去處理他的訴訟跟究竟他可以去選擇他可以去多去講得好聽一點是他可以去選擇啦那講得比較實務的部分呢因為進入訴訟事實上是一個非常\n複雜跟一個非常龐大的一個程序但是就是說基本上你們也拿這個訴訟費的提高作為一個門檻我想那是一個比例原則啊那是一個比例原則就是我們調高的事實上是額度就是說他那個請這樣好了本席可以請教所以你們在這個過程當中有充分跟民眾來告知或者是在決定調升的過程當中有民眾的參與嗎有學者的參與嗎那個委員那個因為我是那個就是當時\n政策在形成的時候我還沒有到司法院來服務那所以這個部分委員我可能還要回去再做多一些資料來跟委員報告對 那個專案報告不要忘了就說你們上次答應從4月到7月現在很久了這個很抱歉 這個我們不知道我們還沒有提出去第二個 那我的重點就是說你剛剛也提到說這樣也是一個門檻讓民眾自行先去了解跟這個延期他要在哪一個程度就法律面或者是非法律的救濟途徑\n那這個其實民眾就要在法律的這個概念上基本上要提高很多那這個門檻是不是適用我們司法院其實做蠻多宣導了就是說民眾可以多使用這些那個替代措施就是所謂的那個ADR就是說像對啊到鄉鎮條件專業來講我們都知道這個是什麼但是就一般民眾\n就像剛才我們有委員提出來,尤其是吳委員我們招委,我就想說一般民眾他只管他的權益,也就是說政府你能夠做什麼,但是政府我們不應該就是說,那麼為了我們的這個,我們不能說我們的方便,但是就是說你看那個訴訟費的增加成為一個門檻,那民眾要做很多他們非專業的事情,他可能就會覺得有些東西有一點overloading,\n所以本席這邊指出來的是說當你們覺得它可以是一個門檻的同時對民眾來講可能就是一個障礙那這個部分是不是請您在那個過程去了解這個相關的過程記錄的同時也納入一下考量因為就本席知道這個案件的這個過程當中你們這個宣告的時間可能也不夠長\n再來過程當中是不是有充分跟相關的食物界學界民間的表述有充分的這個溝通其實這個是本席最關心的但是因為你們一下子在去年就突然調升了那經常會使用到的人他就會有很大的衝擊我現在手上兩個那個資料一個是跟向委員報告這個資料在5月18號的時候就已經送達\n委員這邊你們說要來做一個專案報告啊對你們有那個相關的資料另外先前在政策行程的時候有開過諮詢會議先前有開過諮詢會議對那諮詢會議的這個比例跟結構比如說民間多少人那食物界多少人\n所以你知道我的重點嗎就是說你們在這個過程當中有沒有充分考慮到各方面的一個衝擊當然對你們來講你說二十幾年沒有調生那在這個時候調生好像也是做一個整理跟檢討但是那麼長的時間那在這個時間點一調生的幅度那麼高這樣子合不合適那第二個部分是那當它作為一個門檻那對民眾來講是不是增加了困難度這個是我一個重點\n再來是你們雖然也剛才您說你們有做一些宣導所以這個宣導的效能跟你們有時候講了那講了呢民眾知不知道他的困難點在哪裡還是說你們就是講了但是民眾的困難其實還一直存在所以這是本席的幾個重點好不好那請你回去如果說那個時候您還沒有到職那可不可以看一下相關的這個資料然後再給本席一個比較完整的一個回應好嗎\n好的 這件事情我會一直提啦所以請你們還是確認一下看這整個過程當中 合不合適然後尤其是對民眾的衝擊這個是我們最關心的 好不好好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.936 --> 00:22.514\n好謝謝三位我先交代一下背景那感謝主席然後服務委員同仁非常感謝主席今天那我們一起來針對這個\n\n00:25.768 --> 00:47.420\n保護令是不是萬能然後如何避免我們最近看到的這個個案的憾事在發生本席這邊有些看法所以不好意思需要請那個官員上台嗎可能待會第一個會先請衛福部長待會再請嗎對對對我先交代一下衛福部次長次次長部長先離開部長已經先離開了嗎好謝謝\n\n00:52.206 --> 01:20.222\n好沒關係啦那因為土城這個案我想讓大家都非常矚目那剛才我們也在今天的會議裡面大家在討論有關於保護令的重要與否那當然也有比較我們法界的專家都提到了這個檢察官生壓的重要性那今天我們就這個案件來討論它不是一個單一個案我們就從個案裡面來看一個國家保護機制在\n\n01:21.722 --> 01:40.993\n維護人民安全的這樣一個關鍵時刻失靈的制度性問題衛福部你們在先前的這個家庭暴力通報案件在2020年就有大約15萬件一直到2024已經到18萬件了剛才也委員指出來這樣子的案件越來越多\n\n01:42.274 --> 02:06.289\n然後在案件當中呢親密關係的暴力是最多的那佔了幾乎一半通報的這個一半的數量那被害人主要都以女性為主佔比已經到了七成所以就有一些研究就開始指出國內的這個親密關係的暴力從發生到正式通報的時間現在已經有點縮短大概在平均\n\n02:07.530 --> 02:21.771\n4.2年那我們的看法我這邊的看法是應該社會大眾目前對於通報意識的這個意願有逐漸提高所以也讓通報率有增加是的沒錯那這個數字本席這邊看到兩件事\n\n02:22.332 --> 02:50.832\n第一個是國人對於家暴的敏感度有加強所以拒絕沉默的觀念也比較普及了那第二個部分應該是這個案件量也勢必提升從現在開始那麼國家是否已經準備好接受這樣高通報時代的制度會有一些挑戰那風險又如何控管我想這是我們今天在討論本席這邊待會要來跟你們就教的一些核心問題\n\n02:52.253 --> 03:20.677\n所以我們先談一下保護性社工的量能所以在保護性社工量能跟落實的部分根據全國的資料跟時事的新聞目前整個國家應該來配置1985名的保護性的社工但是到今年7月案件發生的時候缺額還達到了610人就是大概有三分之一的人員在編制裡面沒有補足\n\n03:21.397 --> 03:47.308\n那更有一些律師也指出來一個社工平均要處理90件的家暴通報案件那扣除大家要做的行政與管理人力那個實際的負荷是非常驚人的那剛才我們也都提到保護令不是發下去就結束而是必須要有具體的人力將保護令的這整個的概念來落實成行動那麼社工人力的不足\n\n03:47.788 --> 04:05.954\n其實有點像是我們對被害人說你們自己小心一點好自為之所以就導致剛才我們有人在討論這個保護令到底有沒有用所以目前我來請教衛福部部社工的缺額是不是有一個結構性影響家暴實質處理的風險\n\n04:07.515 --> 04:35.956\n介入那缺額怎麼樣補足那這個風險如何介入喔這是第一個問題那目前你們有沒有這個補足缺額的改善計畫跟時程那有沒有考慮將保護性的社工與案件比例來做一個明定或納入加防中心的評鑑或各縣市政府考積來確保整個案件的品質現在已經不是只有數量問題那本席建議啦我們是不是來比照護理人員的護病比\n\n04:36.756 --> 04:51.765\n將每位社工可承擔案件的上限制定出來然後讓前線的志工有時間做真正的風險評估跟人身的保護而不是永遠疲於奔命那他們其實還要處理一些行政的問題那就導致這樣悲劇發生我們又再來討論\n\n04:54.907 --> 05:21.238\n那另外呢在第一線有督導指出社會安全網的社工起薪大概四五萬家房中心的社工大概四萬三那麼就新鮮人的起薪這樣還算可以但是目前的薪資漲幅有限那相關的配套其實還有機會精進所以衛福部這邊有沒有一些檢討要增加投入社工領域的誘因跟保障那這個部分是不是以上幾個問題可不可以簡短的做一個回應\n\n05:22.578 --> 05:45.204\n非常感謝林委員對於這個問題的關心我首先必須要說這個圖騰這個案件我真的是非常痛心那我們現在目前我也跟委員報告就是說這個其實整個有關保護性業務還有你說家暴我也必須要在這邊非常感謝我們的法務部檢察官還有我們的警政還有我們的法官還有其實裡面事實上是一個整個網絡\n\n05:46.284 --> 05:58.879\n那這裡面當然主責是我們的保護性社工但是這整個事實上是一個整個社會安全網的一個整個網路的關係我剛才指出來這幾個問題你們是不是已經有在做或者是已經在研議未來要做是的\n\n06:01.681 --> 06:25.354\n所以剛剛說第一點是網絡合作另外第二就是說您剛剛有問社工的部分我們現在您剛剛說是1比90我們現在目前是這樣如果說是那個成人保護的話應該是1比案量應該是1比30啦而保的話則是1比25那我們確實現在目前像委員剛剛所說的我們現在目前確實有這個整個社工他的整個overloaded的這個問題所以你們現在處理方式跟未來改善的方式要積極要趕快要來補足我們現在目前的這個社工那有時程嗎\n\n06:30.376 --> 06:51.007\n有跟我們報告我們現在目前其實社安網我們現在目前已經我們有1.0已經大概完成現在準備要跟院那邊提出2.0那這裡面其實就有包括您剛剛所說的有關於社工同仁他的整個人員的我們原本現在缺了大約三分之一那怎麼樣在什麼時間內你們可以補足多少這個有一個進度嗎\n\n06:52.768 --> 07:19.055\n我們現在目前的整個社交網路還是你們要不要提供一個比較詳細的書面資料給我那就我剛才談的這個數據性的問題然後跟實質薪酬制度上你們目前的一個做法所以我這邊也有先提出跟提醒你們那在薪資的這個漲幅你們可能也要考慮進去要不然就會跟你們其他護理人員這樣子的一個問題其實一直都存在那我跟委員報告我們在保護性社工其實比起一般社工同仁事實上我們事實上是有一個整個佳績\n\n07:19.815 --> 07:41.040\n我們有一個那所以加擠的這個部分是不是跟我這邊講出來的落差你們也算一下然後讓我這邊知道好不好好的好的那接下來我們來探討一下那個橫向通報跟高風險個案的這個識別問題那有一些學者提出來就是說這個制度最危險的72小時內除了通知對於實質防護的介入與當事人這個雙方心理處遇的問題其實有待加強\n\n07:47.482 --> 08:09.970\n那我們這個制度是不是在改善的關鍵針對有前科自制力低甚至可能有精神問題的這個對象可不可以有沒有建立風險的識別跟加強性追蹤的系統是不是先就這個部分來回應是我跟委員報告我們現在事實上我們有一個那個TIPTIFDA的一個量表這事實上就是所謂的風險就是說這個加害所以針對這個量表\n\n08:13.592 --> 08:23.605\n討論出來的人評鑑出來的人你們有一些追蹤系統嗎包圍有我們現在它有一個分數啦分數大於5的話那這樣我們就會有一個整個追蹤對於這個加害人的一個整個追蹤的機制\n\n08:28.760 --> 08:56.897\n好那那個你可不可以給我相關的這個細節書面講比較清楚因為你們口頭回應我都沒有一個數據的這個概念好好不好沒問題那另外在這個還有僅靠社工跟警察在繁重業務下來進行這樣一個經驗評估是恰當嗎土城殺人案當中就是檢方警方還有社政單位你們每一個單位都依法了可是在處置上卻又發生了憾事所以我們想請教\n\n08:58.078 --> 09:25.289\n各部會啦那目前因為是我今天可能著重在這個衛福部你們認為目前的橫向通報溝通是很有效度的一個保護機制嗎有沒有高風險個案快速的一個反應機制讓檢警社工警察醫療心理方面的人能夠很快的將這樣一個連結系統來建立所以在保護令合法的72小時之內那高風險的一個監督可以進入預防的介入你們目前有嗎\n\n09:26.249 --> 09:37.974\n包委有我們如果說一旦有發生這個事情的時候其實我們這裡面有一個整個通報還有一個整個橫向聯繫的機制那我也跟委員報告為了時間上我們前天才剛開完一個檢討會議我也必須要說就是說在整個保護令核發的過程裡面其實整個我們警政同仁還有我們社工同仁這邊要提供給檢方這邊我想我們的一些相關的資料\n\n09:54.881 --> 09:58.066\n司法院有一個問題很快要請教因為上次也是時間關係就沒有列入公報那這邊\n\n10:13.793 --> 10:22.001\n這個問題是有關於你們民事訴訟跟非訟事件的裁判費的調整措施本席在4月9號是你們的訴訟廳長在這邊他說要給本席一個報告然後10號應該是蜂蜜署長在這邊但是你們廳長這邊也沒有給我報告\n\n10:30.689 --> 10:47.496\n那這個問題其實是蠻多的我可能在這邊先提一下未來有機會我還會再監督這件事所以上次我跟副秘書長在談到你們這個訴訟費調整的一個措施你那時候可能不太清楚這件事情後來我相信你也有查了\n\n10:47.836 --> 11:09.532\n所以其他的委員會跟您在詢問的時候也有做了一些回應但是本席在這邊要提的就是說你們在這個雖然你們的原因是因為物價跟行政成本上升所以你們做了一個非送事件跟民事訴訟的裁判費的一個調整但是這個措施其實有幾個狀況本席這邊要來提出來\n\n11:12.995 --> 11:33.222\n你們在訴訟標的在新台幣十萬元以下裁判費就增加了五成基本上就一半了那第二個部分是在十萬到一千萬之間的增加了三成那麼非財非產權事件在審申請跟抗告案件一律都加徵五成雖然二十幾年沒有調\n\n11:33.962 --> 11:47.434\n但是這樣子的這個調升那是不是對中小企業來講衝擊是非常的大那麼對當然企業如果比較大他的資本比較雄厚或許影響沒有那麼大但是對中小企業來講應該是非常大的\n\n11:49.215 --> 11:58.488\n那尤其對一般民眾這個影響應該是更大這是本席上次要提出來的但是因為第一天是4月9號這個廳長後來他也沒有來跟我做一個專案報告他當場是承諾說應該要來做一個專案報告這樣\n\n12:06.038 --> 12:21.653\n但是隔一天是您這邊您大概也知道這個那天我看我們也沒有機會討論來溝通但是後續我就不知道這個部分您所了解的一個狀況最主要是你們廳長沒有來跟我們做專案報告所以我們也\n\n12:22.754 --> 12:34.498\n民眾所碰到的這些問題其實我們也希望藉這個機會來反映所以以司法院來講當然你們透過物價調升一個成本導向的看法來調升這樣一個\n\n12:39.059 --> 12:56.484\n訴訟費但是呢對於一般民眾好像財產爭議啊身份確認家事的這個糾紛或原本對裁判不服的這樣一個救濟程序都因為你們的調生而產生的影響這衝擊是非常大的這個是實質上的一個問題但是另外也就是說你們在以這樣子一個\n\n12:58.544 --> 13:22.197\n行政成本的提高來調升的情況下你們在調升的時候也沒有充分告知跟有一些討論所以導致本席剛才講的一般民眾其實有一些影響那針對低收入戶中低收入戶或者是公益訴訟當事人我想影響更大你們有沒有可能在這個部分有一些彈性的減免機制\n\n13:23.018 --> 13:50.569\n那個首先我先回答最後一個問題就是有關於就是說如果那個當事人他因為經濟上那個弱勢而沒有辦法就是使用那個來打訴訟的話那這個為了確保人民的這個司法禁用權跟訴訟權法律實際上都有設計這個訴訟救助那個訴訟救助的這個制度他其實是可以來利用的所以你們有針對他們有一些彈性的責免機制的一個設計嗎\n\n13:52.791 --> 14:04.821\n那你可以簡單的回應嗎?就是他可以向那個法院申請就是說先剛開始的時候可以免納就是這個訴訟就做了那個開始的時候免納那以後他再慢慢還的意思嗎?\n\n14:08.804 --> 14:25.803\n跟委員報告訴訟就做裁定准許以後就免納裁判費跟訴訟程序桌所應繳的費用是減掉一部分的費用就全免然後等到訴訟結果出來以後再依照訴訟判決的訴訟費用負擔去做最後的執行例如說是被告負擔就直接向被告徵繳\n\n14:26.624 --> 14:46.412\n因為基本上就會有兩兆不是被告那就是原告要負擔這個費用嗎對因為民事部都會有訴訟費用本席講的是因為你們調升了這個費用但是可能在一開始對於民眾他們就會因為這個費用而不去做這個處理那這個部分可能我在講說因為費用很高所以他可能連啟動都沒有啟動\n\n14:47.472 --> 15:07.932\n或是他會擔心後續這個其實所謂這個調升多少這個事實上我們當時都有做過非常多的那個研究就是說最大的一個幅度是十萬元以下的調成那個五成聽起來好像非常龐大那可是實際上呢他是一千元\n\n15:09.153 --> 15:32.983\n回到那個裁判費本身是一千元變成了一千五百元就是多了五就是你先講一千元嘛如果他的那個費用基本上是高的那這個五成是很高吧所以我們五成就是十萬元以下的就是標的是十萬元以下那其實一般民眾就是說我覺得增下一半也很多通常我們在調生的時候就是五百塊啊就是十萬元以下的五百塊對你來講可能是\n\n15:34.023 --> 15:38.785\n呃不多但是對一般民眾來講它就會成為一種考量那這個比例上是非常高的跟委員報告齁其實那個調整除了就是反應物價之外也有一個很大的就是事實上是一個策略的一個考量那你的意思是說你們東西如果不是很重要的時候你就不要來進入這個程序\n\n15:51.690 --> 16:18.208\n在我國我們有很多就是訴訟以外的ADR的一些制度啊像是那個鄉鎮調解或者說到法院來的時候有很多調解跟和解的這些那個機制那我們也希望說民眾就是說如果說他下來的這些財產權事實上是在的這些爭議是在幾萬元就是不是這些那個龐大化他們可以先使用就是說法院以外的訴訟以外的這一些那個制度\n\n16:23.831 --> 16:41.582\n訴訟費調升是也變成是對於民眾的一種門檻那民眾自己要去做一些分門別類的這個了解然後先不要就這條路線去處理他的訴訟跟究竟他可以去選擇他可以去多去講得好聽一點是他可以去選擇啦那講得比較實務的部分呢因為進入訴訟事實上是一個非常\n\n16:44.704 --> 17:11.158\n複雜跟一個非常龐大的一個程序但是就是說基本上你們也拿這個訴訟費的提高作為一個門檻我想那是一個比例原則啊那是一個比例原則就是我們調高的事實上是額度就是說他那個請這樣好了本席可以請教所以你們在這個過程當中有充分跟民眾來告知或者是在決定調升的過程當中有民眾的參與嗎有學者的參與嗎那個委員那個因為我是那個就是當時\n\n17:12.819 --> 17:39.018\n政策在形成的時候我還沒有到司法院來服務那所以這個部分委員我可能還要回去再做多一些資料來跟委員報告對那個專案報告不要忘了就說你們上次答應從4月到7月現在很久了這個很抱歉這個我們不知道我們還沒有提出去第二個那我的重點就是說你剛剛也提到說這樣也是一個門檻讓民眾自行先去了解跟這個延期他要在哪一個程度就法律面或者是非法律的救濟途徑\n\n17:39.838 --> 17:56.846\n那這個其實民眾就要在法律的這個概念上基本上要提高很多那這個門檻是不是適用我們司法院其實做蠻多宣導了就是說民眾可以多使用這些那個替代措施就是所謂的那個ADR就是說像對啊到鄉鎮條件專業來講我們都知道這個是什麼但是就一般民眾\n\n18:01.448 --> 18:25.955\n就像剛才我們有委員提出來,尤其是吳委員我們招委,我就想說一般民眾他只管他的權益,也就是說政府你能夠做什麼,但是政府我們不應該就是說,那麼為了我們的這個,我們不能說我們的方便,但是就是說你看那個訴訟費的增加成為一個門檻,那民眾要做很多他們非專業的事情,他可能就會覺得有些東西有一點overloading,\n\n18:26.415 --> 18:42.923\n所以本席這邊指出來的是說當你們覺得它可以是一個門檻的同時對民眾來講可能就是一個障礙那這個部分是不是請您在那個過程去了解這個相關的過程記錄的同時也納入一下考量因為就本席知道這個案件的這個過程當中你們這個宣告的時間可能也不夠長\n\n18:47.665 --> 19:10.157\n再來過程當中是不是有充分跟相關的食物界學界民間的表述有充分的這個溝通其實這個是本席最關心的但是因為你們一下子在去年就突然調升了那經常會使用到的人他就會有很大的衝擊我現在手上兩個那個資料一個是跟向委員報告這個資料在5月18號的時候就已經送達\n\n19:11.218 --> 19:17.622\n委員這邊你們說要來做一個專案報告啊對你們有那個相關的資料另外先前在政策行程的時候有開過諮詢會議先前有開過諮詢會議對那諮詢會議的這個比例跟結構比如說民間多少人那食物界多少人\n\n19:30.708 --> 19:56.334\n所以你知道我的重點嗎就是說你們在這個過程當中有沒有充分考慮到各方面的一個衝擊當然對你們來講你說二十幾年沒有調生那在這個時候調生好像也是做一個整理跟檢討但是那麼長的時間那在這個時間點一調生的幅度那麼高這樣子合不合適那第二個部分是那當它作為一個門檻那對民眾來講是不是增加了困難度這個是我一個重點\n\n19:57.274 --> 20:23.589\n再來是你們雖然也剛才您說你們有做一些宣導所以這個宣導的效能跟你們有時候講了那講了呢民眾知不知道他的困難點在哪裡還是說你們就是講了但是民眾的困難其實還一直存在所以這是本席的幾個重點好不好那請你回去如果說那個時候您還沒有到職那可不可以看一下相關的這個資料然後再給本席一個比較完整的一個回應好嗎\n\n20:24.389 --> 20:35.275\n好的這件事情我會一直提啦所以請你們還是確認一下看這整個過程當中合不合適然後尤其是對民眾的衝擊這個是我們最關心的好不好好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.936,"end":22.514,"text":"好 謝謝三位我先交代一下背景那感謝主席然後服務委員同仁非常感謝主席今天那我們一起來針對這個"},{"start":25.768,"end":47.42,"text":"保護令是不是萬能然後如何避免我們最近看到的這個個案的憾事在發生本席這邊有些看法所以不好意思 需要請那個官員上台嗎可能待會第一個會先請衛福部長待會再請嗎對對對 我先交代一下衛福部次長 次次長 部長先離開部長已經先離開了嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":52.206,"end":80.222,"text":"好 沒關係啦那因為土城這個案我想讓大家都非常矚目那剛才我們也在今天的會議裡面大家在討論有關於保護令的重要與否那當然也有比較我們法界的專家都提到了這個檢察官生壓的重要性那今天我們就這個案件來討論它不是一個單一個案我們就從個案裡面來看一個國家保護機制在"},{"start":81.722,"end":100.993,"text":"維護人民安全的這樣一個關鍵時刻失靈的制度性問題衛福部你們在先前的這個家庭暴力通報案件在2020年就有大約15萬件一直到2024已經到18萬件了剛才也委員指出來這樣子的案件越來越多"},{"start":102.274,"end":126.289,"text":"然後在案件當中呢親密關係的暴力是最多的那佔了幾乎一半通報的這個一半的數量那被害人主要都以女性為主佔比已經到了七成所以就有一些研究就開始指出國內的這個親密關係的暴力從發生到正式通報的時間現在已經有點縮短大概在平均"},{"start":127.53,"end":141.771,"text":"4.2年那我們的看法我這邊的看法是應該社會大眾目前對於通報意識的這個意願有逐漸提高所以也讓通報率有增加是的沒錯那這個數字本席這邊看到兩件事"},{"start":142.332,"end":170.832,"text":"第一個是國人對於家暴的敏感度有加強所以拒絕沉默的觀念也比較普及了那第二個部分應該是這個案件量也勢必提升從現在開始那麼國家是否已經準備好接受這樣高通報時代的制度會有一些挑戰那風險又如何控管我想這是我們今天在討論本席這邊待會要來跟你們就教的一些核心問題"},{"start":172.253,"end":200.677,"text":"所以我們先談一下保護性社工的量能所以在保護性社工量能跟落實的部分根據全國的資料跟時事的新聞目前整個國家應該來配置1985名的保護性的社工但是到今年7月案件發生的時候缺額還達到了610人就是大概有三分之一的人員在編制裡面沒有補足"},{"start":201.397,"end":227.308,"text":"那更有一些律師也指出來一個社工平均要處理90件的家暴通報案件那扣除大家要做的行政與管理人力那個實際的負荷是非常驚人的那剛才我們也都提到保護令不是發下去就結束而是必須要有具體的人力將保護令的這整個的概念來落實成行動那麼社工人力的不足"},{"start":227.788,"end":245.954,"text":"其實有點像是我們對被害人說你們自己小心一點好自為之所以就導致剛才我們有人在討論這個保護令到底有沒有用所以目前我來請教衛福部部社工的缺額是不是有一個結構性影響家暴實質處理的風險"},{"start":247.515,"end":275.956,"text":"介入那缺額怎麼樣補足那這個風險如何介入喔這是第一個問題那目前你們有沒有這個補足缺額的改善計畫跟時程那有沒有考慮將保護性的社工與案件比例來做一個明定或納入加防中心的評鑑或各縣市政府考積來確保整個案件的品質現在已經不是只有數量問題那本席建議啦我們是不是來比照護理人員的護病比"},{"start":276.756,"end":291.765,"text":"將每位社工可承擔案件的上限制定出來然後讓前線的志工有時間做真正的風險評估跟人身的保護而不是永遠疲於奔命那他們其實還要處理一些行政的問題那就導致這樣悲劇發生我們又再來討論"},{"start":294.907,"end":321.238,"text":"那另外呢在第一線有督導指出社會安全網的社工起薪大概四五萬家房中心的社工大概四萬三那麼就新鮮人的起薪這樣還算可以但是目前的薪資漲幅有限那相關的配套其實還有機會精進所以衛福部這邊有沒有一些檢討要增加投入社工領域的誘因跟保障那這個部分是不是以上幾個問題可不可以簡短的做一個回應"},{"start":322.578,"end":345.204,"text":"非常感謝林委員對於這個問題的關心我首先必須要說這個圖騰這個案件我真的是非常痛心那我們現在目前我也跟委員報告就是說這個其實整個有關保護性業務還有你說家暴我也必須要在這邊非常感謝我們的法務部檢察官還有我們的警政還有我們的法官還有其實裡面事實上是一個整個網絡"},{"start":346.284,"end":358.879,"text":"那這裡面當然主責是我們的保護性社工但是這整個事實上是一個整個社會安全網的一個整個網路的關係我剛才指出來這幾個問題你們是不是已經有在做或者是已經在研議未來要做是的"},{"start":361.681,"end":385.354,"text":"所以剛剛說第一點是網絡合作另外第二就是說您剛剛有問社工的部分我們現在您剛剛說是1比90我們現在目前是這樣如果說是那個成人保護的話應該是1比 案量應該是1比30啦而保的話則是1比25那我們確實現在目前像委員剛剛所說的我們現在目前確實有這個整個社工他的整個overloaded的這個問題所以你們現在處理方式跟未來改善的方式要積極要趕快要來補足我們現在目前的這個社工那有時程嗎"},{"start":390.376,"end":411.007,"text":"有 跟我們報告 我們現在目前 其實社安網我們現在目前已經 我們有1.0 已經大概完成現在準備要跟院那邊提出2.0那這裡面其實就有包括您剛剛所說的有關於社工同仁他的整個人員的我們原本現在缺了大約三分之一那怎麼樣 在什麼時間內你們可以補足多少這個有一個進度嗎"},{"start":412.768,"end":439.055,"text":"我們現在目前的整個社交網路還是你們要不要提供一個比較詳細的書面資料給我那就我剛才談的這個數據性的問題然後跟實質薪酬制度上你們目前的一個做法所以我這邊也有先提出跟提醒你們那在薪資的這個漲幅你們可能也要考慮進去要不然就會跟你們其他護理人員這樣子的一個問題其實一直都存在那我跟委員報告我們在保護性社工其實比起一般社工同仁事實上我們事實上是有一個整個佳績"},{"start":439.815,"end":461.04,"text":"我們有一個那所以加擠的這個部分是不是跟我這邊講出來的落差你們也算一下然後讓我這邊知道好不好好的好的那接下來我們來探討一下那個橫向通報跟高風險個案的這個識別問題那有一些學者提出來就是說這個制度最危險的72小時內除了通知對於實質防護的介入與當事人這個雙方心理處遇的問題其實有待加強"},{"start":467.482,"end":489.97,"text":"那我們這個制度是不是在改善的關鍵針對有前科自制力低甚至可能有精神問題的這個對象可不可以有沒有建立風險的識別跟加強性追蹤的系統是不是先就這個部分來回應是 我跟委員報告我們現在事實上我們有一個那個TIPTIFDA的一個量表這事實上就是所謂的風險就是說這個加害所以針對這個量表"},{"start":493.592,"end":503.605,"text":"討論出來的人 評鑑出來的人 你們有一些追蹤系統嗎包圍 有 我們現在 它有一個分數啦分數大於5的話 那這樣我們就會有一個整個追蹤對於這個加害人的一個整個追蹤的機制"},{"start":508.76,"end":536.897,"text":"好 那那個你可不可以給我相關的這個細節書面講比較清楚因為你們口頭回應我都沒有一個數據的這個概念好 好不好沒問題那另外在這個還有僅靠社工跟警察在繁重業務下來進行這樣一個經驗評估是恰當嗎土城殺人案當中就是檢方 警方還有社政單位你們每一個單位都依法了可是在處置上卻又發生了憾事所以我們想請教"},{"start":538.078,"end":565.289,"text":"各部會啦 那目前因為是我今天可能著重在這個衛福部你們認為目前的橫向通報溝通是很有效度的一個保護機制嗎有沒有高風險個案快速的一個反應機制讓檢警 社工 警察 醫療 心理方面的人能夠很快的將這樣一個連結系統來建立所以在保護令合法的72小時之內那高風險的一個監督可以進入預防的介入你們目前有嗎"},{"start":566.249,"end":577.974,"text":"包委有 我們如果說一旦有發生這個事情的時候其實我們這裡面有一個整個通報還有一個整個橫向聯繫的機制那我也跟委員報告為了時間上我們前天才剛開完一個檢討會議我也必須要說就是說在整個保護令核發的過程裡面其實整個我們警政同仁還有我們社工同仁這邊要提供給檢方這邊我想我們的一些相關的資料"},{"start":594.881,"end":598.066,"text":"司法院有一個問題很快要請教因為上次也是時間關係就沒有列入公報那這邊"},{"start":613.793,"end":622.001,"text":"這個問題是有關於你們民事訴訟跟非訟事件的裁判費的調整措施本席在4月9號是你們的訴訟廳長在這邊他說要給本席一個報告然後10號應該是蜂蜜署長在這邊但是你們廳長這邊也沒有給我報告"},{"start":630.689,"end":647.496,"text":"那這個問題其實是蠻多的我可能在這邊先提一下未來有機會我還會再監督這件事所以上次我跟副秘書長在談到你們這個訴訟費調整的一個措施你那時候可能不太清楚這件事情後來我相信你也有查了"},{"start":647.836,"end":669.532,"text":"所以其他的委員會跟您在詢問的時候也有做了一些回應但是本席在這邊要提的就是說你們在這個雖然你們的原因是因為物價跟行政成本上升所以你們做了一個非送事件跟民事訴訟的裁判費的一個調整但是這個措施其實有幾個狀況本席這邊要來提出來"},{"start":672.995,"end":693.222,"text":"你們在訴訟標的在新台幣十萬元以下裁判費就增加了五成基本上就一半了那第二個部分是在十萬到一千萬之間的增加了三成那麼非財非產權事件在審申請跟抗告案件一律都加徵五成雖然二十幾年沒有調"},{"start":693.962,"end":707.434,"text":"但是這樣子的這個調升那是不是對中小企業來講衝擊是非常的大那麼對當然企業如果比較大他的資本比較雄厚或許影響沒有那麼大但是對中小企業來講應該是非常大的"},{"start":709.215,"end":718.488,"text":"那尤其對一般民眾這個影響應該是更大這是本席上次要提出來的但是因為第一天是4月9號這個廳長後來他也沒有來跟我做一個專案報告他當場是承諾說應該要來做一個專案報告這樣"},{"start":726.038,"end":741.653,"text":"但是隔一天是您這邊 您大概也知道這個那天我看我們也沒有機會討論來溝通但是後續我就不知道這個部分您所了解的一個狀況最主要是你們廳長沒有來跟我們做專案報告所以我們也"},{"start":742.754,"end":754.498,"text":"民眾所碰到的這些問題其實我們也希望藉這個機會來反映所以以司法院來講當然你們透過物價調升一個成本導向的看法來調升這樣一個"},{"start":759.059,"end":776.484,"text":"訴訟費但是呢對於一般民眾好像財產爭議啊身份確認家事的這個糾紛或原本對裁判不服的這樣一個救濟程序都因為你們的調生而產生的影響這衝擊是非常大的這個是實質上的一個問題但是另外也就是說你們在以這樣子一個"},{"start":778.544,"end":802.197,"text":"行政成本的提高來調升的情況下你們在調升的時候也沒有充分告知跟有一些討論所以導致本席剛才講的一般民眾其實有一些影響那針對低收入戶中低收入戶或者是公益訴訟當事人我想影響更大你們有沒有可能在這個部分有一些彈性的減免機制"},{"start":803.018,"end":830.569,"text":"那個首先我先回答最後一個問題就是有關於就是說如果那個當事人他因為經濟上那個弱勢而沒有辦法就是使用那個來打訴訟的話那這個為了確保人民的這個司法禁用權跟訴訟權法律實際上都有設計這個訴訟救助那個訴訟救助的這個制度他其實是可以來利用的所以你們有針對他們有一些彈性的責免機制的一個設計嗎"},{"start":832.791,"end":844.821,"text":"那你可以簡單的回應嗎?就是他可以向那個法院申請就是說先剛開始的時候可以免納就是這個訴訟就做了那個開始的時候免納那以後他再慢慢還的意思嗎?"},{"start":848.804,"end":865.803,"text":"跟委員報告 訴訟就做裁定准許以後就免納裁判費跟訴訟程序桌所應繳的費用是減掉一部分的費用就全免然後等到訴訟結果出來以後再依照訴訟判決的訴訟費用負擔去做最後的執行例如說是被告負擔就直接向被告徵繳"},{"start":866.624,"end":886.412,"text":"因為基本上就會有兩兆 不是被告 那就是原告要負擔這個費用嗎對 因為民事部都會有訴訟費用本席講的是 因為你們調升了這個費用但是可能在一開始對於民眾他們就會因為這個費用而不去做這個處理那這個部分可能 我在講說因為費用很高 所以他可能連啟動都沒有啟動"},{"start":887.472,"end":907.932,"text":"或是他會擔心後續這個其實所謂這個調升多少這個事實上我們當時都有做過非常多的那個研究就是說最大的一個幅度是十萬元以下的調成那個五成聽起來好像非常龐大那可是實際上呢他是一千元"},{"start":909.153,"end":932.983,"text":"回到那個裁判費本身是一千元變成了一千五百元就是多了五就是你先講一千元嘛如果他的那個費用基本上是高的那這個五成是很高吧所以我們五成就是十萬元以下的就是標的是十萬元以下那其實一般民眾就是說我覺得增下一半也很多通常我們在調生的時候就是五百塊啊就是十萬元以下的五百塊對你來講可能是"},{"start":934.023,"end":938.785,"text":"呃 不多 但是對一般民眾來講它就會成為一種考量那這個比例上是非常高的跟委員報告齁 其實那個調整除了就是反應物價之外也有一個很大的就是事實上是一個策略的一個考量那你的意思是說你們東西如果不是很重要的時候你就不要來進入這個程序"},{"start":951.69,"end":978.208,"text":"在我國我們有很多就是訴訟以外的ADR的一些制度啊像是那個鄉鎮調解或者說到法院來的時候有很多調解跟和解的這些那個機制那我們也希望說民眾就是說如果說他下來的這些財產權事實上是在的這些爭議是在幾萬元就是不是這些那個龐大化他們可以先使用就是說法院以外的訴訟以外的這一些那個制度"},{"start":983.831,"end":1001.582,"text":"訴訟費調升是也變成是對於民眾的一種門檻那民眾自己要去做一些分門別類的這個了解然後先不要就這條路線去處理他的訴訟跟究竟他可以去選擇他可以去多去講得好聽一點是他可以去選擇啦那講得比較實務的部分呢因為進入訴訟事實上是一個非常"},{"start":1004.704,"end":1031.158,"text":"複雜跟一個非常龐大的一個程序但是就是說基本上你們也拿這個訴訟費的提高作為一個門檻我想那是一個比例原則啊那是一個比例原則就是我們調高的事實上是額度就是說他那個請這樣好了本席可以請教所以你們在這個過程當中有充分跟民眾來告知或者是在決定調升的過程當中有民眾的參與嗎有學者的參與嗎那個委員那個因為我是那個就是當時"},{"start":1032.819,"end":1059.018,"text":"政策在形成的時候我還沒有到司法院來服務那所以這個部分委員我可能還要回去再做多一些資料來跟委員報告對 那個專案報告不要忘了就說你們上次答應從4月到7月現在很久了這個很抱歉 這個我們不知道我們還沒有提出去第二個 那我的重點就是說你剛剛也提到說這樣也是一個門檻讓民眾自行先去了解跟這個延期他要在哪一個程度就法律面或者是非法律的救濟途徑"},{"start":1059.838,"end":1076.846,"text":"那這個其實民眾就要在法律的這個概念上基本上要提高很多那這個門檻是不是適用我們司法院其實做蠻多宣導了就是說民眾可以多使用這些那個替代措施就是所謂的那個ADR就是說像對啊到鄉鎮條件專業來講我們都知道這個是什麼但是就一般民眾"},{"start":1081.448,"end":1105.955,"text":"就像剛才我們有委員提出來,尤其是吳委員我們招委,我就想說一般民眾他只管他的權益,也就是說政府你能夠做什麼,但是政府我們不應該就是說,那麼為了我們的這個,我們不能說我們的方便,但是就是說你看那個訴訟費的增加成為一個門檻,那民眾要做很多他們非專業的事情,他可能就會覺得有些東西有一點overloading,"},{"start":1106.415,"end":1122.923,"text":"所以本席這邊指出來的是說當你們覺得它可以是一個門檻的同時對民眾來講可能就是一個障礙那這個部分是不是請您在那個過程去了解這個相關的過程記錄的同時也納入一下考量因為就本席知道這個案件的這個過程當中你們這個宣告的時間可能也不夠長"},{"start":1127.665,"end":1150.157,"text":"再來過程當中是不是有充分跟相關的食物界學界民間的表述有充分的這個溝通其實這個是本席最關心的但是因為你們一下子在去年就突然調升了那經常會使用到的人他就會有很大的衝擊我現在手上兩個那個資料一個是跟向委員報告這個資料在5月18號的時候就已經送達"},{"start":1151.218,"end":1157.622,"text":"委員這邊你們說要來做一個專案報告啊對你們有那個相關的資料另外先前在政策行程的時候有開過諮詢會議先前有開過諮詢會議對那諮詢會議的這個比例跟結構比如說民間多少人那食物界多少人"},{"start":1170.708,"end":1196.334,"text":"所以你知道我的重點嗎就是說你們在這個過程當中有沒有充分考慮到各方面的一個衝擊當然對你們來講你說二十幾年沒有調生那在這個時候調生好像也是做一個整理跟檢討但是那麼長的時間那在這個時間點一調生的幅度那麼高這樣子合不合適那第二個部分是那當它作為一個門檻那對民眾來講是不是增加了困難度這個是我一個重點"},{"start":1197.274,"end":1223.589,"text":"再來是你們雖然也剛才您說你們有做一些宣導所以這個宣導的效能跟你們有時候講了那講了呢民眾知不知道他的困難點在哪裡還是說你們就是講了但是民眾的困難其實還一直存在所以這是本席的幾個重點好不好那請你回去如果說那個時候您還沒有到職那可不可以看一下相關的這個資料然後再給本席一個比較完整的一個回應好嗎"},{"start":1224.389,"end":1235.275,"text":"好的 這件事情我會一直提啦所以請你們還是確認一下看這整個過程當中 合不合適然後尤其是對民眾的衝擊這個是我們最關心的 好不好好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":557,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（10時2分）謝謝召委。非常感謝主席今天讓我們一起來針對保護令是不是萬能，然後如何避免我們最近看到的這個個案的憾事再發生。本席這邊有一些看法，所以……"],["主席：不好意思。需要請官員上臺嗎？"],["林委員倩綺：可能待會第一個會先請衛福部長……"],["主席：待會再請嘛？"],["林委員倩綺：對、對、對，我先交代一下我們……"],["主席：那衛福部是次長，部長先離開。"],["林委員倩綺：部長已經先離開了嘛？好。"],["呂次長建德：委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝，沒關係。","因為土城這個案讓大家都非常矚目，今天的會議裡面大家在討論有關於保護令的重要與否，當然法界的專家都提到了檢察官聲押的重要性，今天我們就這個案件來討論，它不是一個單一個案，我們就從個案裡面來看，一個國家保護機制在維護人民安全的關鍵時刻失靈的制度性問題。","衛福部先前在2020年的家庭暴力通報案件就有大約15萬件……"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["林委員倩綺：一直到2024年已經到18萬件了，剛才也有委員指出，這樣子的案件越來越多。然後這些案件當中，親密關係的暴力是最多的，幾乎占了通報的一半的數量……"],["呂次長建德：沒錯、沒錯。"],["林委員倩綺：被害人主要都以女性為主，占比已經到了七成。有一些研究指出，國內親密關係的暴力事件從發生到正式通報的時間，現在已經有點縮短，大概在平均4.2年，我的看法是，應該是社會大眾目前對於通報的意願有逐漸提高，所以也讓通報率有增加。"],["呂次長建德：是的，沒錯。"],["林委員倩綺：從這個數字，本席看到兩件事：第一個是國人對於家暴的敏感度有加強，拒絕沉默的觀念也比較普及了……"],["呂次長建德：沒錯、沒錯。"],["林委員倩綺：第二個部分，從現在開始，案件量也勢必提升，那麼國家是否已經準備好接受這樣高通報的時代，制度會面臨一些挑戰，風險又如何控管？我想這是我們今天在討論，本席待會要跟你們就教的核心問題。"],["呂次長建德：是的。"],["林委員倩綺：好，我們先談一下保護性社工的量能。在保護性社工量能跟落實的部分，根據全國資料跟時事新聞，目前整個國家應該要配置1,985名的保護性社工，但是到今年7月案件發生的時候，缺額還達到了610人，就是在編制裡面大概有三分之一的人員沒有補足。更有律師指出，一個社工平均要處理90件的家暴通報案件，扣除行政與管理人力後，實際的負荷是非常驚人的。","剛才我們也有提到，保護令不是發下去就結束，而是必須要有具體的人力將保護令的整個概念落實成行動。社工人力的不足其實有點像是我們對被害人說，你們自己小心一點、好自為之，所以就導致剛才我們也有人在討論，這個保護令到底有沒有用。","我要請教衛福部，社工缺額是否會結構性影響家暴案件的實質處理與風險介入？缺額如何補足？風險如何介入？這是第一個問題。目前你們有沒有補足缺額的改善計畫跟時程，是否考慮明定「保護性社工與案件數比例」，或納入家防中心評鑑與各縣市考核指標以確保案件處理品質？因為現在已經不是只有數量的問題。本席建議是否比照護理人員護病比的方式，將每位社工可承擔案件的上限制定出來，讓前線的志工有時間做真正的風險評估跟人身的保護，而不是永遠疲於奔命，他們其實還要處理一些行政的問題，就導致這樣的悲劇發生，我們又再來討論。","另外，第一線有督導指出，社會安全網的社工起薪約4萬，家防中心社工約四萬三，就新鮮人的起薪算尚可，但根據目前薪資制度漲幅有限，相關的配套還有機會精進，所以衛福部這邊是否檢討，增加投入社工領域的誘因跟保障？以上幾個問題，可不可以簡短做一個回應？"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝林委員對於這個問題的關心，我首先必須要說，土城這個案件我們真的非常痛心。我也跟委員報告，目前整個有關於保護性業務，比如說家暴，我也必須要在這邊非常感謝法務部的檢察官、警政還有法官，涉及的其實是整個網絡，這裡面當然主責是我們的保護性社工，但這事實上是一整個社會安全網的網絡……"],["林委員倩綺：所以我剛才指出來的這幾個問題，你們是不是已經有在做，或是已經在研議未來要做？"],["呂次長建德：有，是的。我跟委員報告，剛剛說的第一點就是網絡合作，另外第二個就是您剛剛有問社工的部分，您剛剛說是1比90，我們現在是這樣，如果是成人保護的案量，應該是1比30，兒保則是1比25。確實目前就像委員剛剛所說的，我們現在確實有整個社工overloading的問題，那我們現在……"],["林委員倩綺：所以你們現在的處理方式跟未來改善的方式……"],["呂次長建德：我們現在正在積極趕快來補足目前的社工……"],["林委員倩綺：有時程嗎？"],["呂次長建德：有。跟委員報告，目前我們的社安網1.0已經大概完成，現在準備要跟院那邊提出2.0，這裡面就有包括您剛剛所說的，有關於社工同仁整個人員的補齊……"],["林委員倩綺：現在缺了大約三分之一，在什麼時間內你們可以補足多少，這部分有一個進度嗎？"],["呂次長建德：有，我們現在整個社安網……"],["林委員倩綺：還是你們要不要提供一個比較詳細的書面資料給我……"],["呂次長建德：好，我們再跟……"],["林委員倩綺：就我剛才談的數據性的問題，跟實質薪酬制度上你們目前的作法。"],["呂次長建德：是、是、是。"],["林委員倩綺：所以我這邊有先提出跟提醒你們，在薪資漲幅這個部分，你們可能也要考慮進去……"],["呂次長建德：當然。"],["林委員倩綺：要不然就會跟你們其他，像護理人員這樣的問題一直都存在。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯、沒錯。我跟委員報告，我們的保護性社工比起一般的社工同仁，事實上我們是有一個加給，我們有一個……"],["林委員倩綺：好，所以加給這個部分，是不是你們也算一下跟我這邊講出來的落差，然後讓我知道，好不好？"],["呂次長建德：好的、好的。謝謝委員。"],["林委員倩綺：接下來我們來探討一下橫向通報跟高風險個案的識別問題。有一些學者提出，目前制度在最危險的72小時內，除了通知，對於實質防護介入與當事人雙方心理處遇的問題仍有待加強。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["林委員倩綺：我們這個制度改善的關鍵，針對有前科、自制力低，甚至可能有精神問題的對象，有無建立風險辨識與加強追蹤的系統？是不是先就這個部分來回應？"],["呂次長建德：是，我跟委員報告，我們現在事實上有一個TIPVDA（親密關係暴力危險評估）的量表，這事實上就是所謂的風險，就是說加害人……"],["林委員倩綺：對，所以針對這個量表評鑑出來的人，你們有一些追蹤系統嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，有。他有一個分數，分數大於5的話，我們就會有一個對於加害人的追蹤機制。"],["林委員倩綺：好。那你可不可以給我相關的細節，書面講比較清楚，因為你們口頭回應，我都沒有一個數據的概念，好不好？"],["呂次長建德：好，沒問題。"],["林委員倩綺：還有，僅靠社工跟警察在繁重的業務下來進行這樣一個經驗評估恰當嗎？土城殺人案當中就是檢方、警方還有社政單位，你們每一個單位都依法了，可是在處置上卻又發生了憾事。我想請教各部會，因為我今天可能著重在衛福部，你們認為目前的橫向通報溝通機制是很有效度的一個保護機制嗎？","有沒有高風險個案快速反應機制，讓檢警、社工、警察、醫療、心理方面的人能夠很快地建立這樣一個聯防系統？所以在保護令核發的72小時之內，高風險的監督可以進入預防性介入，你們目前有嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，有，如果一旦發生這個事情的時候，其實我們這裡面有一個通報還有一個橫向聯繫的機制，我也跟委員報告……"],["林委員倩綺：時間上？"],["呂次長建德：前天我們才剛剛開完一個檢討會議，我也必須要說，在整個保護令核發的過程裡面，其實我們警政同仁還有社工同仁這邊要提供給檢方這邊，我想我們的一些相關資料……"],["林委員倩綺：期待能夠聽到你的一個數據的回應。"],["呂次長建德：資料應該要再強化。"],["林委員倩綺：但是這個數據我今天都沒有聽到，請你務必再補書面資料。"],["呂次長建德：好，是、是、是。"],["林委員倩綺：因為時間的關係，我們是不是先談到這邊？"],["呂次長建德：好，感謝委員指教。"],["林委員倩綺：司法院的部分我有一個問題，我就很快來請教，上次也是因為時間的關係就沒有列入公報，這個問題是有關你們民事訴訟跟非訟事件裁判費的調整措施，4月9號的時候是你們的訴訟廳長在這邊，他說要給本席一個報告，然後10號的時候應該是副秘書長在這邊，但是你們廳長也沒有給我報告，這個問題其實是滿多的，我可能在這邊先提一下，未來有機會我還會再監督這件事。","上次我跟副秘書長談到你們這個訴訟費調整的措施，你那時候可能不太清楚這件事情，後來我相信你有去查了，所以其他委員詢問您的時候，您有做了一些回應。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["林委員倩綺：但是本席在這邊要提的是，雖然你們是因為物價跟行政成本上升，所以做了一個非訟事件跟民事訴訟裁判費的調整，但是這個措施其實有幾個狀況，本席這邊要提出來，若訴訟標的在新臺幣10萬元以下，裁判費就增加了五成，基本上就一半了；第二個部分是10萬到1,000萬之間是增加三成，非財產權事件、再審聲請跟抗告案件一律都加徵五成。雖然二十幾年沒有調，但是這樣的調升是不是對中小企業的衝擊非常大？當然企業如果比較大、資本比較雄厚，或許影響沒有那麼大，但是對中小企業的影響應該是非常大的，尤其對一般民眾的影響應該是更大。這是本席上次要提出來的，但是因為第一天（4月9號）是廳長列席，後來他也沒有來跟我做一個專案報告，而他當場承諾說應該要來做一個專案報告。"],["王副秘書長梅英：抱歉、抱歉。"],["林委員倩綺：但是隔一天是您在這邊，您大概也知道，那天我們也沒有機會討論、溝通。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是、是。"],["林委員倩綺：但是後續我就不知道這個部分您所了解的狀況，最主要是你們廳長沒有來跟我們做專案報告，民眾所碰到的這些問題，其實我們也希望藉這個機會來反映。所以以司法院來講，當然你們透過物價調升、成本導向的看法來調升這樣一個訴訟費，但是對一般民眾來講，像財產爭議、身分確認、家事的糾紛，或原本對裁判不服的救濟程序，都因為你們的調升而產生了影響，這個衝擊是非常大的，這是實質上的問題。","另外，你們以行政成本提高為由來調升，在調升的時候也沒有充分告知或是有一些討論，所以導致本席剛才講的，對一般民眾其實有一些影響，針對低收入戶、中低收入戶或者是公益訴訟當事人，我想影響更大，你們有沒有可能在這個部分有一些彈性的減免機制？"],["王副秘書長梅英：我先回答最後一個問題，就是如果當事人因為經濟上弱勢而沒有辦法來打訴訟的話，為了確保人民的司法近用權跟訴訟權，法律實質上都有設計訴訟救助的制度，他其實是可以來利用這部分的。"],["林委員倩綺：所以你們針對他們有一些彈性的減免機制的設計嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是、是、是，有、有、有。"],["林委員倩綺：那你可以簡單的回應嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：他可以向法院聲請，剛開始的時候可以免納，就是訴訟救助的那個……"],["林委員倩綺：開始的時候免納，以後他再慢慢還的意思嗎？"],["郭法官躍民：跟委員報告，訴訟救助裁定准許以後就免納裁判費跟訴訟程序中所應繳交的費用。"],["林委員倩綺：是減掉一部分的費用就對了？"],["郭法官躍民：不是，是全免。"],["林委員倩綺：全免？好的。"],["郭法官躍民：然後等到訴訟結果出來以後，再依照訴訟判決的訴訟費用負擔去做最後的執行，例如說是被告負擔就直接向被告徵繳。"],["林委員倩綺：所以基本上就會有兩造，不是被告就是原告要負擔這個費用嗎？"],["郭法官躍民：對，因為民事訴訟都會有訴訟費用。"],["林委員倩綺：本席講的是因為你們調升了這個費用，但是可能在一開始，民眾就會因為這個費用而不去做這個處理，我的意思是說，因為費用很高，所以他可能連啟動都沒有啟動，或是他會擔心後續結果……"],["王副秘書長梅英：跟委員報告一下，其實所謂調升多少，事實上我們當時都有做過非常多的研究，就是說最大的幅度是……"],["林委員倩綺：你們研究的同時，有專家學者或者是民間……"],["王副秘書長梅英：10萬元以下的調成五成，聽起來好像非常龐大，可是實際上，它是1,000元……回到那個裁判費本身是1,000元變成了1,500元，就是多了500元。"],["林委員倩綺：你現在講1,000元嘛，如果他的那個費用基本上是高的，這個五成是很高吧！"],["王副秘書長梅英：所以五成就是10萬元以下的，就是標的是10萬元以下，其實一般民眾就是說……"],["林委員倩綺：我覺得增加一半也很多，通常我們在調升的時候……"],["王副秘書長梅英：就是500塊啊，就是10萬元以下的。"],["林委員倩綺：500塊對你來講可能是不多，但是對一般民眾來講，這就會成為一種考量，這個比例上是非常高的！"],["王副秘書長梅英：跟委員報告，其實做這個調整除了反映物價之外，有一個很大的……事實上是一個策略的考量，就是司法策略……"],["林委員倩綺：你的意思是說，你們的東西如果不是很重要的時候，你就不要來進入這個程序？"],["王副秘書長梅英：不是，因為事實上在我國有很多訴訟以外的ADR的一些制度，像鄉鎮調解，或者到法院來的時候，也有很多調解跟和解的機制，我們也希望民眾，如果他現在這些財產權的爭議是幾萬元，就是不龐大的話，他們可以先使用法院以外的、訴訟以外的這些制度。"],["林委員倩綺：本席這樣聽起來，你們把訴訟費調升也變成是對於民眾的一種門檻，民眾自己要去做一些分門別類的了解，然後不要就這條路線去處理他的訴訟跟救濟。"],["王副秘書長梅英：就是他可以去選擇，他可以去多……"],["林委員倩綺：講得好聽一點是他可以去選擇，講得比較實務的部分，民眾……"],["王副秘書長梅英：他可以多去想一想，因為進入訴訟事實上是一個非常複雜、龐雜的程序。"],["林委員倩綺：對、對，應該是滿複雜的，但是基本上你們也拿訴訟費的提高作為一個門檻……"],["王副秘書長梅英：我想那是一個比例原則，就是我們調高的事實上是額度，就是說他那個……"],["林委員倩綺：這樣好了，本席要請教，你們在這個過程當中有充分告知民眾，或者是在決定調升的過程當中有民眾的參與嗎？有學者的參與嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員，因為當時政策在形成的時候我還沒有到司法院來服務，所以這個部分我可能還要回去再準備多一些資料來跟委員報告。"],["林委員倩綺：對，那個專案報告不要忘了。"],["王副秘書長梅英：好，是的。"],["林委員倩綺：你們上次答應了，從4月到7月已經很久了。"],["王副秘書長梅英：真的很抱歉，我們不知道我們還沒有提出去。"],["林委員倩綺：第二個，我的重點就是說，你剛剛也提到這樣也是一個門檻，讓民眾自行先去了解、研析他要在哪一個程度就法律面或者是非法律的救濟途徑……"],["王副秘書長梅英：對。"],["林委員倩綺：那其實民眾就要在法律的概念上，基本上要提高很多，這個門檻是不是適用？這其實是……"],["王副秘書長梅英：我們司法院其實做滿多宣導了，就是說民眾可以多使用這些替代措施，就是所謂的ADR，像到鄉鎮調解……"],["林委員倩綺：專業來講，我們都知道這個是什麼，但是對於一般民眾，就像剛才有委員提出來，尤其吳委員、我們召委有講到一般民眾只管他的權益，也就是說，政府你能夠做什麼？但是政府不應該為了我們的這個……不能說我們的方便，你看那個訴訟費的增加成為一個門檻，民眾要做很多他們非專業的事情，他可能就會覺得有些東西有一點overloading，所以本席這邊要指出來的是，當你們覺得它可以是一個門檻的同時，對民眾來講可能就是一個障礙，這個部分是不是請您在了解相關過程的同時也納入考量？因為就本席所知，在這個案件的過程當中，你們宣告的時間可能也不夠長，再來，過程當中是不是有跟相關的實務界、學界、民間充分溝通？其實這是本席最關心的，但是因為你們去年就突然調升了，經常會使用到的人就會有很大的衝擊。"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，我現在手上有兩個資料，一個是向委員報告的資料，在5月18號的時候就已經送達委員這邊。"],["林委員倩綺：你們說要來做一個專案報告啦！"],["王副秘書長梅英：就是口頭，是不是？"],["林委員倩綺：對。"],["王副秘書長梅英：好。"],["林委員倩綺：對，你們有相關的資料，但是廳長一直說要來作專案報告。"],["王副秘書長梅英：另外先前在政策形成的時候，有開過諮詢會議。"],["林委員倩綺：對，諮詢會議的比例跟結構，比如民間有多少人？實務界有多少人？"],["王副秘書長梅英：關於詳細的部分，我們會後再補充資料。"],["林委員倩綺：對，所以你們知道我的重點嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["林委員倩綺：就是你們在這個過程中，有沒有充分考慮到各方面的衝擊？當然對你們來講，你說二十幾年沒有調升，在這個時候調升好像也是做一個整理跟檢討，但是在這個時間點一下調升的幅度那麼高，這樣合不合適？第二個部分是當它作為一個門檻，對民眾來講是不是增加了困難度？這是我的一個重點。","再來，剛才您說你們有做了一些宣導，這個宣導的效能……你們有時候講了，可是民眾知不知道它的困難點在哪裡？還是你們雖然講了，但是民眾的困難其實還一直存在，所以這是本席的幾個重點，好不好？如果您那個時候還沒有到職，可不可以請你回去看一下相關的資料，再給本席一個比較完整的回應，好嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：好的。"],["林委員倩綺：這件事情我會一直提，所以請你們還是確認一下這整個過程當中合不合適，尤其是對民眾的衝擊，這個是我們最關心的，好不好？"],["王副秘書長梅英：好。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝。"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請王義川委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":144,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-22","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","林倩綺","王義川","翁曉玲","沈發惠","羅智強","李坤城","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","陳培瑜","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2025-07-16"],"gazette_id":"1146701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部部長、內政部警政署署長、教育部、勞動部、內\n政部移民署率所屬相關單位列席就「保護令不是萬能的?!如何避免憾事再度發生。家庭暴力防治\n法保護令核發，研析配套措施之檢討與精進，並提供相關統計數據」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146701_00002"}}}