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646.976, \"end\": 647.117, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 647.117, \"end\": 647.217, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 647.217, \"end\": 647.237, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 647.237, \"end\": 647.297, \"score\": 0.644}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 647.297, \"end\": 647.417, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"火\", \"start\": 647.417, \"end\": 647.437, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"警\", \"start\": 647.437, \"end\": 647.457, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 650.898, \"end\": 664.675, \"text\": \"廠方當然跟主管機關都責無旁貸所以未來都應該要加強演練和設備檢查而且另外希望每小時公告這個空氣的監測然後中央地方共同制定安全的流程剛剛其實我們都有討論到這是應該都要精進的事情\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"廠\"}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 650.898, \"end\": 651.559, \"score\": 0.76}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 651.559, \"end\": 651.679, \"score\": 0.528}, {\"word\": \"跟\", 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664.394, \"end\": 664.475, \"score\": 0.47}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 664.475, \"end\": 664.575, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 664.575, \"end\": 664.595, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"精\", \"start\": 664.595, \"end\": 664.615, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 664.615, \"end\": 664.635, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 664.635, \"end\": 664.655, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 664.655, \"end\": 664.675, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 667.478, \"end\": 683.277, \"text\": \"那甚至有高雄的在地的立委在小港召開協調會要了經濟部、高雄市政府、廠商代表、里長跟地方人士檢查火災的原因、責任的歸屬跟後續改善的方式但是我們發現環境部完全沒有在裡面\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 667.478, \"end\": 667.638, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"甚\", \"start\": 667.638, \"end\": 667.839, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"至\", \"start\": 667.839, \"end\": 668.219, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 668.219, \"end\": 668.539, \"score\": 0.993}, 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00:00:44,136\n彭部長好前天在高雄三原有一個超級電池廠的大火那不僅影響了空氣品質甚至高雄市政府的環保局也發布了細胞簡訊告知附近的民眾有關於離電池工廠的爆炸而且證實呢有毒的這個氫氟酸也就是我們俗稱的化骨水正在外洩中\n\n3\n00:00:45,077 --> 00:01:01,094\n那當然今天大家討論的是光電腦但是我想前面很多人講可是這也是一個重要的時事的問題如果民眾接觸到這些化骨水它會穿透組織侵蝕肌肉骨骼對皮膚和呼吸道造成刺激\n\n4\n00:01:01,754 --> 00:01:25,409\n甚至之前也有新聞因為有人接觸到這而過世所以這部分請問部長知不知道這件事知道我們化學署就有派大概8位同仁在現場24小時監控那這個氫氟酸呢這個基本上在場內有微量的氫氟酸但是在整個高雄市區它的下風處並沒有量到氫氟酸的數值好很好謝謝部長但是我接下來就要追問囉\n\n5\n00:01:27,448 --> 00:01:48,873\n我接下來就要追問喔因為其實針對大火發生的時候我也看了一下環境部的空氣品質監測那你們卻顯示一切正常那甚至我也同時抓取了當天吹西南風的方向也就是小港東北方的鳳山側站也是一切正常喔\n\n6\n00:01:49,591 --> 00:02:15,749\n所以想要請教一下部長當天的這些策戰運行是一切正常的嗎因為這個是一個叫做就是一個煙流它不見得會經過它可能是往上擴散不見得會經過我們地面的一個策戰所以有的會高一點點但是有的沒有出現基本上我所有的策戰都有去看過他們數值完全都是正常所以這讓我們很質疑說這個策戰的數據的\n\n7\n00:02:19,511 --> 00:02:40,447\n真實性,因為還記得我們之前就有質詢過很多的策戰你們是手動可以調整的而且這個事情不只是這邊的問題這也會讓我們質疑全台灣的空氣品質的策戰是不是有問題所以這部分想要請部長是不是可以去回去檢討一下或是去看一下到底策戰有沒有出的狀況\n\n8\n00:02:41,508 --> 00:03:08,602\n因為這是一件很奇怪的事情當下發生了這個大火其實不只是測站的問題你知道這個大火嚴重到當天其實有航班因此是延誤了是有延誤的情況所以你說這樣子沒有導致附近的空氣品質受到影響嗎大火沒有導致這個附近空氣品質受到影響嗎所以還讓我們這些測站測出來的這些標準居然是完全是合標準的那部長你不覺得這應該是有問題的嗎\n\n9\n00:03:10,183 --> 00:03:20,973\n因為我說它是一個plume這樣就像說有人抽煙那個煙就這樣潑潑潑可是旁邊旁邊的人不見得在它的上風處不見得不知道那事實上就是說已經發生了這個事但是你空氣品質的測站就是沒有沒有測到沒有落在它的這個所以你的意思是說只要沒有沒有被空氣品質測沒有被這個測\n\n10\n00:03:30,741 --> 00:03:47,047\n測儀測到說有出現空氣品質我們都不算在空污的環境裡不是不是這個因為這個已經開罰了對嘛所以部長我的意思是說顯然客觀事實就是沒有測到那這個在平均上面這個是不是應該要去檢討的一件事情報告委員這個其實蠻難檢討因為我們的密度齁這個再密\n\n11\n00:03:51,129 --> 00:04:09,878\n除非是說我們可能100公尺設一個這個東西因為這個煙流可能就幾十公尺這樣在擴散所以我們除非要花很多的資金然後要設100公尺但是這個代表意義可能不是為了這一次的這個一次的事件來做處理不過因為這個事件處理我們有化學署有現場有監製部長我跟你說因為空氣\n\n12\n00:04:10,558 --> 00:04:29,922\n空氣車站的這個數據從這些事件可以讓我們開始質疑或是覺得說這空氣車站是否值得信任所以我剛才會講到不是說針對這個事件那如果你這樣講的話我舉例以台中來講如果中火附近的我們是不是也會讓百姓開始質疑說那這樣子你的車站到底是不是有公信力的\n\n13\n00:04:30,562 --> 00:04:47,810\n這是我這個小節的第一件事所以我希望部長是不是可以去查一下雖然你說這個是一個什麼往上的現象並沒有碰到這些空瓶儀器可是事實上就是沒有讓在地的居民放心安心嘛那如果你說在地的居民上網去看我去查一下這個車站結果都沒事那我就出門了\n\n14\n00:04:50,311 --> 00:05:00,494\n是這樣嗎這樣子對於在地的居民是不是應該部長可以去思考一下或檢討一下那發生這個事應該要怎麼樣通知因為這就會也接下來問到我下一個問題喔這剛剛第一個小節就是這部分要請部長去確認一下那第二個小節就是說\n\n15\n00:05:09,053 --> 00:05:34,662\n是不是要進一步的檢討這個高風險化學工廠周邊的這個監測的策略要提高這個敏感區域的反應能力因為把這些事件把此次的事件當為一個檢討的案例來討論看是不是要提出我們是不是請部長部內提出一個改善的方向可以給本席這邊來了解因為現在會開始有這樣子高風險的工廠的情況\n\n16\n00:05:39,339 --> 00:05:58,483\n跟委員報告其實對於這種高風險的我們分級之後啊除了平常的跨部的稽查之外對於我們平常的這個我們會去分級分級那在不同的等級裡面我們會去要求這個應變計畫還有我們會再救他的因為他還沒產生災害不過我們都會應變的這邊都會把它做下來這樣子\n\n17\n00:06:04,504 --> 00:06:17,154\n這個如果產生災害就蠻危險的你剛剛這個剛剛這個化骨水如果碰到的話任何一個人我想這都是很所以你剛剛講的還是有點太太好像是不是應該還要再去檢討精進說針對這個部分你沒有什麼你所謂的分級那像這個工廠是第幾級\n\n18\n00:06:22,079 --> 00:06:34,895\n這個工廠因為它其實它運作毒化物質的兩種它這次它剛剛委員所提到的這個青佛酸主要是它的電解液裡面的一個叫做6伏磷酸鋰所以我們針對這個\n\n19\n00:06:39,339 --> 00:06:55,556\n這種儲能電池的工廠我們本來就會SOP裡面啦就如果有災害發生我們就會去測氰酵酸因為你這個是等於是災害發生才後續啦我想要講的是你有沒有預防譬如說預防的機制譬如說在這種高風險的工廠附近你們要不要去我舉例好了\n\n20\n00:06:55,936 --> 00:07:22,367\n是不是要去研議說要不要用一個所謂專屬事故的這個監測點或者是比較微型感測的網路就是說針對這樣子是不是可以更主動在附近比如說已經是很高假設對你們來講是高風險的這個工廠的話你們有沒有更積極的作為這是不是應該要去思考因為如果真的一旦發生了災害又不是說發生了災害我再請毒化署去現場就好了是這我們會整體再來我們平常就有一個機制這我們會再來檢討\n\n21\n00:07:24,648 --> 00:07:38,484\n另外就是這次的大火造成這個有毒物質的擴散那高雄市的環保局有在網站上面發布警告但是相較於環境部跟這個毒化署的網頁上是沒有任何的說明\n\n22\n00:07:39,585 --> 00:08:00,806\n這是不是也代表說這個兩個同時都是政府機關的相關網頁那你覺得民眾看了這兩個網頁之後要相信誰換個角度來說環境部對於這個火災以及這個有毒物的外洩事件是不是慢了半拍還是根本毫無反應所以你剛剛所謂反應說你們有派毒化署的這個小隊去可是你們在整個訊息的揭露上是完全沒有揭露到的\n\n23\n00:08:01,647 --> 00:08:17,197\n那包含這個部分想要另外問一下高雄的環保局是不是應該要第一時間就有沒有通報我們的毒化署然後再來就是說如果有通報那是什麼時間通報那毒化署是多少的時間內去做反應的\n\n24\n00:08:19,338 --> 00:08:38,309\n這個全台灣各個縣市那一套發生火災擴散那個資料全部都是環境部提供給各個地方環保局因為他們是第一線跟消防局有這個協同的一個作業所以那個資料因為是以地方為主所以但是後面的後勤所有的資料整個系統都是環境部在提供的所以就以他們的為準\n\n25\n00:08:39,389 --> 00:09:02,574\n所以你的意思是說就是環境部網站上不需要有任何的相關的消息嗎因為在地方上的就好跟委員報告這個按照我們的SOP的流程的話當天早上7點15分環保局有通報我們請求我們支援我們大概在一個小時內就到現場那通常我們這種就是會跟當地的指揮官報到之後那麼討論完之後依照去偵檢數據也都會給\n\n26\n00:09:05,495 --> 00:09:23,947\n指揮官所以當天我們為什麼一開始有測到這個青柏酸的微量的話我們也是跟指揮官報告他們就發告警細胞通知民眾然後持續監測一直到傍晚周介就沒有就是青柏酸這部分所以整個的體系就是由當地的指揮官來發布這個相關的訊息\n\n27\n00:09:27,591 --> 00:09:40,941\n但是這個就是也要請環境部是不是有更積極的作為因為他們基本上他們只發布了說有這件事情請大家在家裡不要出去結果最後結束了或怎麼處理的其實民眾也是一無所知啊\n\n28\n00:09:42,329 --> 00:10:02,655\n我們可以在那個因為其實當天早上我們到之後一直到測到周介沒問題我們才檢討完由當地環保局消防局跟業者去處理那這部分我們會在後面的一些會議的時候我們會提出來對啊因為他們收到之後他們就想說請民眾待在家裡就傻傻的待在家裡也不知道這件事情什麼時候解決了\n\n29\n00:10:04,095 --> 00:10:28,869\n對這是一個就是讓人覺得說是不是兩邊的溝通是不夠同步讓對民眾的資訊的交代也不夠負責因為結束了他就太不曉得這部分我們會再跟他們討論因為其實是災害發生之後這到底什麼時候結束其實還沒辦法很快的去去把他說什麼時候預定結束但是如果一旦是應變到某個程度我們會建議地方對你們這個就是沒有所以接下來\n\n30\n00:10:29,349 --> 00:10:47,457\n這個部分要請你們去檢討跟地方政府如果發生相同的事情究竟應該怎麼樣告訴地方的居民你處理到什麼程度他們可以做什麼事不然他一直關在家裡難道就像是COVID-19的期間嗎你必須在家裡隔離這樣最後其實不分藍綠的這個地方的不管是立委或議員其實都認為這個這起火警\n\n31\n00:10:50,898 --> 00:11:04,675\n廠方當然跟主管機關都責無旁貸所以未來都應該要加強演練和設備檢查而且另外希望每小時公告這個空氣的監測然後中央地方共同制定安全的流程剛剛其實我們都有討論到這是應該都要精進的事情\n\n32\n00:11:07,478 --> 00:11:23,277\n那甚至有高雄的在地的立委在小港召開協調會要了經濟部、高雄市政府、廠商代表、里長跟地方人士檢查火災的原因、責任的歸屬跟後續改善的方式但是我們發現環境部完全沒有在裡面\n\n33\n00:11:24,332 --> 00:11:40,441\n有有嗎我們看到你當時有在嗎我們毒化災小組就是像這種事故所有都會都會參加因為那一場會議你們也在裡面因為我們看到那個會議的那個出席的裡面並沒有我們相關的單位有啊好有在裡面那OK所以因為這個事情\n\n34\n00:11:42,122 --> 00:12:02,841\n必須要讓在地方這樣子的工廠已經變成在地上的一個超級風險所以我們剛剛所有的事件請大家把這一次的案件成為一個檢討的一個事件希望不只是高雄未來還有很多的地方都有這樣子超級風險的工廠我們不希望有任何的這個風險和災害或是事故發生\n\n35\n00:12:03,582 --> 00:12:15,031\n尤其是現在不管是地震啊或者是火災啊都很有機會的發生我們覺得這個對於在地地方上的居民是非常的有危害和有風險好那再請部長這邊去檢討好不好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n49\t209\t六人好\n20216\t44136\t彭部長好前天在高雄三原有一個超級電池廠的大火那不僅影響了空氣品質甚至高雄市政府的環保局也發布了細胞簡訊告知附近的民眾有關於離電池工廠的爆炸而且證實呢有毒的這個氫氟酸也就是我們俗稱的化骨水正在外洩中\n45077\t61094\t那當然今天大家討論的是光電腦但是我想前面很多人講可是這也是一個重要的時事的問題如果民眾接觸到這些化骨水它會穿透組織侵蝕肌肉骨骼對皮膚和呼吸道造成刺激\n61754\t85409\t甚至之前也有新聞因為有人接觸到這而過世所以這部分請問部長知不知道這件事知道我們化學署就有派大概8位同仁在現場24小時監控那這個氫氟酸呢這個基本上在場內有微量的氫氟酸但是在整個高雄市區它的下風處並沒有量到氫氟酸的數值好很好謝謝部長但是我接下來就要追問囉\n87448\t108873\t我接下來就要追問喔因為其實針對大火發生的時候我也看了一下環境部的空氣品質監測那你們卻顯示一切正常那甚至我也同時抓取了當天吹西南風的方向也就是小港東北方的鳳山側站也是一切正常喔\n109591\t135749\t所以想要請教一下部長當天的這些策戰運行是一切正常的嗎因為這個是一個叫做就是一個煙流它不見得會經過它可能是往上擴散不見得會經過我們地面的一個策戰所以有的會高一點點但是有的沒有出現基本上我所有的策戰都有去看過他們數值完全都是正常所以這讓我們很質疑說這個策戰的數據的\n139511\t160447\t真實性,因為還記得我們之前就有質詢過很多的策戰你們是手動可以調整的而且這個事情不只是這邊的問題這也會讓我們質疑全台灣的空氣品質的策戰是不是有問題所以這部分想要請部長是不是可以去回去檢討一下或是去看一下到底策戰有沒有出的狀況\n161508\t188602\t因為這是一件很奇怪的事情當下發生了這個大火其實不只是測站的問題你知道這個大火嚴重到當天其實有航班因此是延誤了是有延誤的情況所以你說這樣子沒有導致附近的空氣品質受到影響嗎大火沒有導致這個附近空氣品質受到影響嗎所以還讓我們這些測站測出來的這些標準居然是完全是合標準的那部長你不覺得這應該是有問題的嗎\n190183\t200973\t因為我說它是一個plume這樣就像說有人抽煙那個煙就這樣潑潑潑可是旁邊旁邊的人不見得在它的上風處不見得不知道那事實上就是說已經發生了這個事但是你空氣品質的測站就是沒有沒有測到沒有落在它的這個所以你的意思是說只要沒有沒有被空氣品質測沒有被這個測\n210741\t227047\t測儀測到說有出現空氣品質我們都不算在空污的環境裡不是不是這個因為這個已經開罰了對嘛所以部長我的意思是說顯然客觀事實就是沒有測到那這個在平均上面這個是不是應該要去檢討的一件事情報告委員這個其實蠻難檢討因為我們的密度齁這個再密\n231129\t249878\t除非是說我們可能100公尺設一個這個東西因為這個煙流可能就幾十公尺這樣在擴散所以我們除非要花很多的資金然後要設100公尺但是這個代表意義可能不是為了這一次的這個一次的事件來做處理不過因為這個事件處理我們有化學署有現場有監製部長我跟你說因為空氣\n250558\t269922\t空氣車站的這個數據從這些事件可以讓我們開始質疑或是覺得說這空氣車站是否值得信任所以我剛才會講到不是說針對這個事件那如果你這樣講的話我舉例以台中來講如果中火附近的我們是不是也會讓百姓開始質疑說那這樣子你的車站到底是不是有公信力的\n270562\t287810\t這是我這個小節的第一件事所以我希望部長是不是可以去查一下雖然你說這個是一個什麼往上的現象並沒有碰到這些空瓶儀器可是事實上就是沒有讓在地的居民放心安心嘛那如果你說在地的居民上網去看我去查一下這個車站結果都沒事那我就出門了\n290311\t300494\t是這樣嗎這樣子對於在地的居民是不是應該部長可以去思考一下或檢討一下那發生這個事應該要怎麼樣通知因為這就會也接下來問到我下一個問題喔這剛剛第一個小節就是這部分要請部長去確認一下那第二個小節就是說\n309053\t334662\t是不是要進一步的檢討這個高風險化學工廠周邊的這個監測的策略要提高這個敏感區域的反應能力因為把這些事件把此次的事件當為一個檢討的案例來討論看是不是要提出我們是不是請部長部內提出一個改善的方向可以給本席這邊來了解因為現在會開始有這樣子高風險的工廠的情況\n339339\t358483\t跟委員報告其實對於這種高風險的我們分級之後啊除了平常的跨部的稽查之外對於我們平常的這個我們會去分級分級那在不同的等級裡面我們會去要求這個應變計畫還有我們會再救他的因為他還沒產生災害不過我們都會應變的這邊都會把它做下來這樣子\n364504\t377154\t這個如果產生災害就蠻危險的你剛剛這個剛剛這個化骨水如果碰到的話任何一個人我想這都是很所以你剛剛講的還是有點太太好像是不是應該還要再去檢討精進說針對這個部分你沒有什麼你所謂的分級那像這個工廠是第幾級\n382079\t394895\t這個工廠因為它其實它運作毒化物質的兩種它這次它剛剛委員所提到的這個青佛酸主要是它的電解液裡面的一個叫做6伏磷酸鋰所以我們針對這個\n399339\t415556\t這種儲能電池的工廠我們本來就會SOP裡面啦就如果有災害發生我們就會去測氰酵酸因為你這個是等於是災害發生才後續啦我想要講的是你有沒有預防譬如說預防的機制譬如說在這種高風險的工廠附近你們要不要去我舉例好了\n415936\t442367\t是不是要去研議說要不要用一個所謂專屬事故的這個監測點或者是比較微型感測的網路就是說針對這樣子是不是可以更主動在附近比如說已經是很高假設對你們來講是高風險的這個工廠的話你們有沒有更積極的作為這是不是應該要去思考因為如果真的一旦發生了災害又不是說發生了災害我再請毒化署去現場就好了是 這我們會整體再來我們平常就有一個機制這我們會再來檢討\n444648\t458484\t另外就是這次的大火造成這個有毒物質的擴散那高雄市的環保局有在網站上面發布警告但是相較於環境部跟這個毒化署的網頁上是沒有任何的說明\n459585\t480806\t這是不是也代表說這個兩個同時都是政府機關的相關網頁那你覺得民眾看了這兩個網頁之後要相信誰換個角度來說環境部對於這個火災以及這個有毒物的外洩事件是不是慢了半拍還是根本毫無反應所以你剛剛所謂反應說你們有派毒化署的這個小隊去可是你們在整個訊息的揭露上是完全沒有揭露到的\n481647\t497197\t那包含這個部分想要另外問一下高雄的環保局是不是應該要第一時間就有沒有通報我們的毒化署然後再來就是說如果有通報那是什麼時間通報那毒化署是多少的時間內去做反應的\n499338\t518309\t這個全台灣各個縣市那一套發生火災擴散那個資料全部都是環境部提供給各個地方環保局因為他們是第一線跟消防局有這個協同的一個作業所以那個資料因為是以地方為主所以但是後面的後勤所有的資料整個系統都是環境部在提供的所以就以他們的為準\n519389\t542574\t所以你的意思是說就是環境部網站上不需要有任何的相關的消息嗎因為在地方上的就好跟委員報告這個按照我們的SOP的流程的話當天早上7點15分環保局有通報我們請求我們支援我們大概在一個小時內就到現場那通常我們這種就是會跟當地的指揮官報到之後那麼討論完之後依照去偵檢數據也都會給\n545495\t563947\t指揮官所以當天我們為什麼一開始有測到這個青柏酸的微量的話我們也是跟指揮官報告他們就發告警細胞通知民眾然後持續監測一直到傍晚周介就沒有就是青柏酸這部分所以整個的體系就是由當地的指揮官來發布這個相關的訊息\n567591\t580941\t但是這個就是也要請環境部是不是有更積極的作為因為他們基本上他們只發布了說有這件事情請大家在家裡不要出去結果最後結束了或怎麼處理的其實民眾也是一無所知啊\n582329\t602655\t我們可以在那個因為其實當天早上我們到之後一直到測到周介沒問題我們才檢討完由當地環保局消防局跟業者去處理那這部分我們會在後面的一些會議的時候我們會提出來對啊因為他們收到之後他們就想說請民眾待在家裡就傻傻的待在家裡也不知道這件事情什麼時候解決了\n604095\t628869\t對這是一個就是讓人覺得說是不是兩邊的溝通是不夠同步讓對民眾的資訊的交代也不夠負責因為結束了他就太不曉得這部分我們會再跟他們討論因為其實是災害發生之後這到底什麼時候結束其實還沒辦法很快的去去把他說什麼時候預定結束但是如果一旦是應變到某個程度我們會建議地方對你們這個就是沒有所以接下來\n629349\t647457\t這個部分要請你們去檢討跟地方政府如果發生相同的事情究竟應該怎麼樣告訴地方的居民你處理到什麼程度他們可以做什麼事不然他一直關在家裡難道就像是COVID-19的期間嗎你必須在家裡隔離這樣最後其實不分藍綠的這個地方的不管是立委或議員其實都認為這個這起火警\n650898\t664675\t廠方當然跟主管機關都責無旁貸所以未來都應該要加強演練和設備檢查而且另外希望每小時公告這個空氣的監測然後中央地方共同制定安全的流程剛剛其實我們都有討論到這是應該都要精進的事情\n667478\t683277\t那甚至有高雄的在地的立委在小港召開協調會要了經濟部、高雄市政府、廠商代表、里長跟地方人士檢查火災的原因、責任的歸屬跟後續改善的方式但是我們發現環境部完全沒有在裡面\n684332\t700441\t有有嗎我們看到你當時有在嗎我們毒化災小組就是像這種事故所有都會都會參加因為那一場會議你們也在裡面因為我們看到那個會議的那個出席的裡面並沒有我們相關的單位有啊好有在裡面那OK所以因為這個事情\n702122\t722841\t必須要讓在地方這樣子的工廠已經變成在地上的一個超級風險所以我們剛剛所有的事件請大家把這一次的案件成為一個檢討的一個事件希望不只是高雄未來還有很多的地方都有這樣子超級風險的工廠我們不希望有任何的這個風險和災害或是事故發生\n723582\t735031\t尤其是現在不管是地震啊或者是火災啊都很有機會的發生我們覺得這個對於在地地方上的居民是非常的有危害和有風險好那再請部長這邊去檢討好不好謝謝\n","txt":"六人好\n彭部長好前天在高雄三原有一個超級電池廠的大火那不僅影響了空氣品質甚至高雄市政府的環保局也發布了細胞簡訊告知附近的民眾有關於離電池工廠的爆炸而且證實呢有毒的這個氫氟酸也就是我們俗稱的化骨水正在外洩中\n那當然今天大家討論的是光電腦但是我想前面很多人講可是這也是一個重要的時事的問題如果民眾接觸到這些化骨水它會穿透組織侵蝕肌肉骨骼對皮膚和呼吸道造成刺激\n甚至之前也有新聞因為有人接觸到這而過世所以這部分請問部長知不知道這件事知道我們化學署就有派大概8位同仁在現場24小時監控那這個氫氟酸呢這個基本上在場內有微量的氫氟酸但是在整個高雄市區它的下風處並沒有量到氫氟酸的數值好很好謝謝部長但是我接下來就要追問囉\n我接下來就要追問喔因為其實針對大火發生的時候我也看了一下環境部的空氣品質監測那你們卻顯示一切正常那甚至我也同時抓取了當天吹西南風的方向也就是小港東北方的鳳山側站也是一切正常喔\n所以想要請教一下部長當天的這些策戰運行是一切正常的嗎因為這個是一個叫做就是一個煙流它不見得會經過它可能是往上擴散不見得會經過我們地面的一個策戰所以有的會高一點點但是有的沒有出現基本上我所有的策戰都有去看過他們數值完全都是正常所以這讓我們很質疑說這個策戰的數據的\n真實性,因為還記得我們之前就有質詢過很多的策戰你們是手動可以調整的而且這個事情不只是這邊的問題這也會讓我們質疑全台灣的空氣品質的策戰是不是有問題所以這部分想要請部長是不是可以去回去檢討一下或是去看一下到底策戰有沒有出的狀況\n因為這是一件很奇怪的事情當下發生了這個大火其實不只是測站的問題你知道這個大火嚴重到當天其實有航班因此是延誤了是有延誤的情況所以你說這樣子沒有導致附近的空氣品質受到影響嗎大火沒有導致這個附近空氣品質受到影響嗎所以還讓我們這些測站測出來的這些標準居然是完全是合標準的那部長你不覺得這應該是有問題的嗎\n因為我說它是一個plume這樣就像說有人抽煙那個煙就這樣潑潑潑可是旁邊旁邊的人不見得在它的上風處不見得不知道那事實上就是說已經發生了這個事但是你空氣品質的測站就是沒有沒有測到沒有落在它的這個所以你的意思是說只要沒有沒有被空氣品質測沒有被這個測\n測儀測到說有出現空氣品質我們都不算在空污的環境裡不是不是這個因為這個已經開罰了對嘛所以部長我的意思是說顯然客觀事實就是沒有測到那這個在平均上面這個是不是應該要去檢討的一件事情報告委員這個其實蠻難檢討因為我們的密度齁這個再密\n除非是說我們可能100公尺設一個這個東西因為這個煙流可能就幾十公尺這樣在擴散所以我們除非要花很多的資金然後要設100公尺但是這個代表意義可能不是為了這一次的這個一次的事件來做處理不過因為這個事件處理我們有化學署有現場有監製部長我跟你說因為空氣\n空氣車站的這個數據從這些事件可以讓我們開始質疑或是覺得說這空氣車站是否值得信任所以我剛才會講到不是說針對這個事件那如果你這樣講的話我舉例以台中來講如果中火附近的我們是不是也會讓百姓開始質疑說那這樣子你的車站到底是不是有公信力的\n這是我這個小節的第一件事所以我希望部長是不是可以去查一下雖然你說這個是一個什麼往上的現象並沒有碰到這些空瓶儀器可是事實上就是沒有讓在地的居民放心安心嘛那如果你說在地的居民上網去看我去查一下這個車站結果都沒事那我就出門了\n是這樣嗎這樣子對於在地的居民是不是應該部長可以去思考一下或檢討一下那發生這個事應該要怎麼樣通知因為這就會也接下來問到我下一個問題喔這剛剛第一個小節就是這部分要請部長去確認一下那第二個小節就是說\n是不是要進一步的檢討這個高風險化學工廠周邊的這個監測的策略要提高這個敏感區域的反應能力因為把這些事件把此次的事件當為一個檢討的案例來討論看是不是要提出我們是不是請部長部內提出一個改善的方向可以給本席這邊來了解因為現在會開始有這樣子高風險的工廠的情況\n跟委員報告其實對於這種高風險的我們分級之後啊除了平常的跨部的稽查之外對於我們平常的這個我們會去分級分級那在不同的等級裡面我們會去要求這個應變計畫還有我們會再救他的因為他還沒產生災害不過我們都會應變的這邊都會把它做下來這樣子\n這個如果產生災害就蠻危險的你剛剛這個剛剛這個化骨水如果碰到的話任何一個人我想這都是很所以你剛剛講的還是有點太太好像是不是應該還要再去檢討精進說針對這個部分你沒有什麼你所謂的分級那像這個工廠是第幾級\n這個工廠因為它其實它運作毒化物質的兩種它這次它剛剛委員所提到的這個青佛酸主要是它的電解液裡面的一個叫做6伏磷酸鋰所以我們針對這個\n這種儲能電池的工廠我們本來就會SOP裡面啦就如果有災害發生我們就會去測氰酵酸因為你這個是等於是災害發生才後續啦我想要講的是你有沒有預防譬如說預防的機制譬如說在這種高風險的工廠附近你們要不要去我舉例好了\n是不是要去研議說要不要用一個所謂專屬事故的這個監測點或者是比較微型感測的網路就是說針對這樣子是不是可以更主動在附近比如說已經是很高假設對你們來講是高風險的這個工廠的話你們有沒有更積極的作為這是不是應該要去思考因為如果真的一旦發生了災害又不是說發生了災害我再請毒化署去現場就好了是 這我們會整體再來我們平常就有一個機制這我們會再來檢討\n另外就是這次的大火造成這個有毒物質的擴散那高雄市的環保局有在網站上面發布警告但是相較於環境部跟這個毒化署的網頁上是沒有任何的說明\n這是不是也代表說這個兩個同時都是政府機關的相關網頁那你覺得民眾看了這兩個網頁之後要相信誰換個角度來說環境部對於這個火災以及這個有毒物的外洩事件是不是慢了半拍還是根本毫無反應所以你剛剛所謂反應說你們有派毒化署的這個小隊去可是你們在整個訊息的揭露上是完全沒有揭露到的\n那包含這個部分想要另外問一下高雄的環保局是不是應該要第一時間就有沒有通報我們的毒化署然後再來就是說如果有通報那是什麼時間通報那毒化署是多少的時間內去做反應的\n這個全台灣各個縣市那一套發生火災擴散那個資料全部都是環境部提供給各個地方環保局因為他們是第一線跟消防局有這個協同的一個作業所以那個資料因為是以地方為主所以但是後面的後勤所有的資料整個系統都是環境部在提供的所以就以他們的為準\n所以你的意思是說就是環境部網站上不需要有任何的相關的消息嗎因為在地方上的就好跟委員報告這個按照我們的SOP的流程的話當天早上7點15分環保局有通報我們請求我們支援我們大概在一個小時內就到現場那通常我們這種就是會跟當地的指揮官報到之後那麼討論完之後依照去偵檢數據也都會給\n指揮官所以當天我們為什麼一開始有測到這個青柏酸的微量的話我們也是跟指揮官報告他們就發告警細胞通知民眾然後持續監測一直到傍晚周介就沒有就是青柏酸這部分所以整個的體系就是由當地的指揮官來發布這個相關的訊息\n但是這個就是也要請環境部是不是有更積極的作為因為他們基本上他們只發布了說有這件事情請大家在家裡不要出去結果最後結束了或怎麼處理的其實民眾也是一無所知啊\n我們可以在那個因為其實當天早上我們到之後一直到測到周介沒問題我們才檢討完由當地環保局消防局跟業者去處理那這部分我們會在後面的一些會議的時候我們會提出來對啊因為他們收到之後他們就想說請民眾待在家裡就傻傻的待在家裡也不知道這件事情什麼時候解決了\n對這是一個就是讓人覺得說是不是兩邊的溝通是不夠同步讓對民眾的資訊的交代也不夠負責因為結束了他就太不曉得這部分我們會再跟他們討論因為其實是災害發生之後這到底什麼時候結束其實還沒辦法很快的去去把他說什麼時候預定結束但是如果一旦是應變到某個程度我們會建議地方對你們這個就是沒有所以接下來\n這個部分要請你們去檢討跟地方政府如果發生相同的事情究竟應該怎麼樣告訴地方的居民你處理到什麼程度他們可以做什麼事不然他一直關在家裡難道就像是COVID-19的期間嗎你必須在家裡隔離這樣最後其實不分藍綠的這個地方的不管是立委或議員其實都認為這個這起火警\n廠方當然跟主管機關都責無旁貸所以未來都應該要加強演練和設備檢查而且另外希望每小時公告這個空氣的監測然後中央地方共同制定安全的流程剛剛其實我們都有討論到這是應該都要精進的事情\n那甚至有高雄的在地的立委在小港召開協調會要了經濟部、高雄市政府、廠商代表、里長跟地方人士檢查火災的原因、責任的歸屬跟後續改善的方式但是我們發現環境部完全沒有在裡面\n有有嗎我們看到你當時有在嗎我們毒化災小組就是像這種事故所有都會都會參加因為那一場會議你們也在裡面因為我們看到那個會議的那個出席的裡面並沒有我們相關的單位有啊好有在裡面那OK所以因為這個事情\n必須要讓在地方這樣子的工廠已經變成在地上的一個超級風險所以我們剛剛所有的事件請大家把這一次的案件成為一個檢討的一個事件希望不只是高雄未來還有很多的地方都有這樣子超級風險的工廠我們不希望有任何的這個風險和災害或是事故發生\n尤其是現在不管是地震啊或者是火災啊都很有機會的發生我們覺得這個對於在地地方上的居民是非常的有危害和有風險好那再請部長這邊去檢討好不好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.049 --> 00:00.209\n六人好\n\n00:20.216 --> 00:44.136\n彭部長好前天在高雄三原有一個超級電池廠的大火那不僅影響了空氣品質甚至高雄市政府的環保局也發布了細胞簡訊告知附近的民眾有關於離電池工廠的爆炸而且證實呢有毒的這個氫氟酸也就是我們俗稱的化骨水正在外洩中\n\n00:45.077 --> 01:01.094\n那當然今天大家討論的是光電腦但是我想前面很多人講可是這也是一個重要的時事的問題如果民眾接觸到這些化骨水它會穿透組織侵蝕肌肉骨骼對皮膚和呼吸道造成刺激\n\n01:01.754 --> 01:25.409\n甚至之前也有新聞因為有人接觸到這而過世所以這部分請問部長知不知道這件事知道我們化學署就有派大概8位同仁在現場24小時監控那這個氫氟酸呢這個基本上在場內有微量的氫氟酸但是在整個高雄市區它的下風處並沒有量到氫氟酸的數值好很好謝謝部長但是我接下來就要追問囉\n\n01:27.448 --> 01:48.873\n我接下來就要追問喔因為其實針對大火發生的時候我也看了一下環境部的空氣品質監測那你們卻顯示一切正常那甚至我也同時抓取了當天吹西南風的方向也就是小港東北方的鳳山側站也是一切正常喔\n\n01:49.591 --> 02:15.749\n所以想要請教一下部長當天的這些策戰運行是一切正常的嗎因為這個是一個叫做就是一個煙流它不見得會經過它可能是往上擴散不見得會經過我們地面的一個策戰所以有的會高一點點但是有的沒有出現基本上我所有的策戰都有去看過他們數值完全都是正常所以這讓我們很質疑說這個策戰的數據的\n\n02:19.511 --> 02:40.447\n真實性,因為還記得我們之前就有質詢過很多的策戰你們是手動可以調整的而且這個事情不只是這邊的問題這也會讓我們質疑全台灣的空氣品質的策戰是不是有問題所以這部分想要請部長是不是可以去回去檢討一下或是去看一下到底策戰有沒有出的狀況\n\n02:41.508 --> 03:08.602\n因為這是一件很奇怪的事情當下發生了這個大火其實不只是測站的問題你知道這個大火嚴重到當天其實有航班因此是延誤了是有延誤的情況所以你說這樣子沒有導致附近的空氣品質受到影響嗎大火沒有導致這個附近空氣品質受到影響嗎所以還讓我們這些測站測出來的這些標準居然是完全是合標準的那部長你不覺得這應該是有問題的嗎\n\n03:10.183 --> 03:20.973\n因為我說它是一個plume這樣就像說有人抽煙那個煙就這樣潑潑潑可是旁邊旁邊的人不見得在它的上風處不見得不知道那事實上就是說已經發生了這個事但是你空氣品質的測站就是沒有沒有測到沒有落在它的這個所以你的意思是說只要沒有沒有被空氣品質測沒有被這個測\n\n03:30.741 --> 03:47.047\n測儀測到說有出現空氣品質我們都不算在空污的環境裡不是不是這個因為這個已經開罰了對嘛所以部長我的意思是說顯然客觀事實就是沒有測到那這個在平均上面這個是不是應該要去檢討的一件事情報告委員這個其實蠻難檢討因為我們的密度齁這個再密\n\n03:51.129 --> 04:09.878\n除非是說我們可能100公尺設一個這個東西因為這個煙流可能就幾十公尺這樣在擴散所以我們除非要花很多的資金然後要設100公尺但是這個代表意義可能不是為了這一次的這個一次的事件來做處理不過因為這個事件處理我們有化學署有現場有監製部長我跟你說因為空氣\n\n04:10.558 --> 04:29.922\n空氣車站的這個數據從這些事件可以讓我們開始質疑或是覺得說這空氣車站是否值得信任所以我剛才會講到不是說針對這個事件那如果你這樣講的話我舉例以台中來講如果中火附近的我們是不是也會讓百姓開始質疑說那這樣子你的車站到底是不是有公信力的\n\n04:30.562 --> 04:47.810\n這是我這個小節的第一件事所以我希望部長是不是可以去查一下雖然你說這個是一個什麼往上的現象並沒有碰到這些空瓶儀器可是事實上就是沒有讓在地的居民放心安心嘛那如果你說在地的居民上網去看我去查一下這個車站結果都沒事那我就出門了\n\n04:50.311 --> 05:00.494\n是這樣嗎這樣子對於在地的居民是不是應該部長可以去思考一下或檢討一下那發生這個事應該要怎麼樣通知因為這就會也接下來問到我下一個問題喔這剛剛第一個小節就是這部分要請部長去確認一下那第二個小節就是說\n\n05:09.053 --> 05:34.662\n是不是要進一步的檢討這個高風險化學工廠周邊的這個監測的策略要提高這個敏感區域的反應能力因為把這些事件把此次的事件當為一個檢討的案例來討論看是不是要提出我們是不是請部長部內提出一個改善的方向可以給本席這邊來了解因為現在會開始有這樣子高風險的工廠的情況\n\n05:39.339 --> 05:58.483\n跟委員報告其實對於這種高風險的我們分級之後啊除了平常的跨部的稽查之外對於我們平常的這個我們會去分級分級那在不同的等級裡面我們會去要求這個應變計畫還有我們會再救他的因為他還沒產生災害不過我們都會應變的這邊都會把它做下來這樣子\n\n06:04.504 --> 06:17.154\n這個如果產生災害就蠻危險的你剛剛這個剛剛這個化骨水如果碰到的話任何一個人我想這都是很所以你剛剛講的還是有點太太好像是不是應該還要再去檢討精進說針對這個部分你沒有什麼你所謂的分級那像這個工廠是第幾級\n\n06:22.079 --> 06:34.895\n這個工廠因為它其實它運作毒化物質的兩種它這次它剛剛委員所提到的這個青佛酸主要是它的電解液裡面的一個叫做6伏磷酸鋰所以我們針對這個\n\n06:39.339 --> 06:55.556\n這種儲能電池的工廠我們本來就會SOP裡面啦就如果有災害發生我們就會去測氰酵酸因為你這個是等於是災害發生才後續啦我想要講的是你有沒有預防譬如說預防的機制譬如說在這種高風險的工廠附近你們要不要去我舉例好了\n\n06:55.936 --> 07:22.367\n是不是要去研議說要不要用一個所謂專屬事故的這個監測點或者是比較微型感測的網路就是說針對這樣子是不是可以更主動在附近比如說已經是很高假設對你們來講是高風險的這個工廠的話你們有沒有更積極的作為這是不是應該要去思考因為如果真的一旦發生了災害又不是說發生了災害我再請毒化署去現場就好了是這我們會整體再來我們平常就有一個機制這我們會再來檢討\n\n07:24.648 --> 07:38.484\n另外就是這次的大火造成這個有毒物質的擴散那高雄市的環保局有在網站上面發布警告但是相較於環境部跟這個毒化署的網頁上是沒有任何的說明\n\n07:39.585 --> 08:00.806\n這是不是也代表說這個兩個同時都是政府機關的相關網頁那你覺得民眾看了這兩個網頁之後要相信誰換個角度來說環境部對於這個火災以及這個有毒物的外洩事件是不是慢了半拍還是根本毫無反應所以你剛剛所謂反應說你們有派毒化署的這個小隊去可是你們在整個訊息的揭露上是完全沒有揭露到的\n\n08:01.647 --> 08:17.197\n那包含這個部分想要另外問一下高雄的環保局是不是應該要第一時間就有沒有通報我們的毒化署然後再來就是說如果有通報那是什麼時間通報那毒化署是多少的時間內去做反應的\n\n08:19.338 --> 08:38.309\n這個全台灣各個縣市那一套發生火災擴散那個資料全部都是環境部提供給各個地方環保局因為他們是第一線跟消防局有這個協同的一個作業所以那個資料因為是以地方為主所以但是後面的後勤所有的資料整個系統都是環境部在提供的所以就以他們的為準\n\n08:39.389 --> 09:02.574\n所以你的意思是說就是環境部網站上不需要有任何的相關的消息嗎因為在地方上的就好跟委員報告這個按照我們的SOP的流程的話當天早上7點15分環保局有通報我們請求我們支援我們大概在一個小時內就到現場那通常我們這種就是會跟當地的指揮官報到之後那麼討論完之後依照去偵檢數據也都會給\n\n09:05.495 --> 09:23.947\n指揮官所以當天我們為什麼一開始有測到這個青柏酸的微量的話我們也是跟指揮官報告他們就發告警細胞通知民眾然後持續監測一直到傍晚周介就沒有就是青柏酸這部分所以整個的體系就是由當地的指揮官來發布這個相關的訊息\n\n09:27.591 --> 09:40.941\n但是這個就是也要請環境部是不是有更積極的作為因為他們基本上他們只發布了說有這件事情請大家在家裡不要出去結果最後結束了或怎麼處理的其實民眾也是一無所知啊\n\n09:42.329 --> 10:02.655\n我們可以在那個因為其實當天早上我們到之後一直到測到周介沒問題我們才檢討完由當地環保局消防局跟業者去處理那這部分我們會在後面的一些會議的時候我們會提出來對啊因為他們收到之後他們就想說請民眾待在家裡就傻傻的待在家裡也不知道這件事情什麼時候解決了\n\n10:04.095 --> 10:28.869\n對這是一個就是讓人覺得說是不是兩邊的溝通是不夠同步讓對民眾的資訊的交代也不夠負責因為結束了他就太不曉得這部分我們會再跟他們討論因為其實是災害發生之後這到底什麼時候結束其實還沒辦法很快的去去把他說什麼時候預定結束但是如果一旦是應變到某個程度我們會建議地方對你們這個就是沒有所以接下來\n\n10:29.349 --> 10:47.457\n這個部分要請你們去檢討跟地方政府如果發生相同的事情究竟應該怎麼樣告訴地方的居民你處理到什麼程度他們可以做什麼事不然他一直關在家裡難道就像是COVID-19的期間嗎你必須在家裡隔離這樣最後其實不分藍綠的這個地方的不管是立委或議員其實都認為這個這起火警\n\n10:50.898 --> 11:04.675\n廠方當然跟主管機關都責無旁貸所以未來都應該要加強演練和設備檢查而且另外希望每小時公告這個空氣的監測然後中央地方共同制定安全的流程剛剛其實我們都有討論到這是應該都要精進的事情\n\n11:07.478 --> 11:23.277\n那甚至有高雄的在地的立委在小港召開協調會要了經濟部、高雄市政府、廠商代表、里長跟地方人士檢查火災的原因、責任的歸屬跟後續改善的方式但是我們發現環境部完全沒有在裡面\n\n11:24.332 --> 11:40.441\n有有嗎我們看到你當時有在嗎我們毒化災小組就是像這種事故所有都會都會參加因為那一場會議你們也在裡面因為我們看到那個會議的那個出席的裡面並沒有我們相關的單位有啊好有在裡面那OK所以因為這個事情\n\n11:42.122 --> 12:02.841\n必須要讓在地方這樣子的工廠已經變成在地上的一個超級風險所以我們剛剛所有的事件請大家把這一次的案件成為一個檢討的一個事件希望不只是高雄未來還有很多的地方都有這樣子超級風險的工廠我們不希望有任何的這個風險和災害或是事故發生\n\n12:03.582 --> 12:15.031\n尤其是現在不管是地震啊或者是火災啊都很有機會的發生我們覺得這個對於在地地方上的居民是非常的有危害和有風險好那再請部長這邊去檢討好不好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.049,"end":0.209,"text":"六人好"},{"start":20.216,"end":44.136,"text":"彭部長好前天在高雄三原有一個超級電池廠的大火那不僅影響了空氣品質甚至高雄市政府的環保局也發布了細胞簡訊告知附近的民眾有關於離電池工廠的爆炸而且證實呢有毒的這個氫氟酸也就是我們俗稱的化骨水正在外洩中"},{"start":45.077,"end":61.094,"text":"那當然今天大家討論的是光電腦但是我想前面很多人講可是這也是一個重要的時事的問題如果民眾接觸到這些化骨水它會穿透組織侵蝕肌肉骨骼對皮膚和呼吸道造成刺激"},{"start":61.754,"end":85.409,"text":"甚至之前也有新聞因為有人接觸到這而過世所以這部分請問部長知不知道這件事知道我們化學署就有派大概8位同仁在現場24小時監控那這個氫氟酸呢這個基本上在場內有微量的氫氟酸但是在整個高雄市區它的下風處並沒有量到氫氟酸的數值好很好謝謝部長但是我接下來就要追問囉"},{"start":87.448,"end":108.873,"text":"我接下來就要追問喔因為其實針對大火發生的時候我也看了一下環境部的空氣品質監測那你們卻顯示一切正常那甚至我也同時抓取了當天吹西南風的方向也就是小港東北方的鳳山側站也是一切正常喔"},{"start":109.591,"end":135.749,"text":"所以想要請教一下部長當天的這些策戰運行是一切正常的嗎因為這個是一個叫做就是一個煙流它不見得會經過它可能是往上擴散不見得會經過我們地面的一個策戰所以有的會高一點點但是有的沒有出現基本上我所有的策戰都有去看過他們數值完全都是正常所以這讓我們很質疑說這個策戰的數據的"},{"start":139.511,"end":160.447,"text":"真實性,因為還記得我們之前就有質詢過很多的策戰你們是手動可以調整的而且這個事情不只是這邊的問題這也會讓我們質疑全台灣的空氣品質的策戰是不是有問題所以這部分想要請部長是不是可以去回去檢討一下或是去看一下到底策戰有沒有出的狀況"},{"start":161.508,"end":188.602,"text":"因為這是一件很奇怪的事情當下發生了這個大火其實不只是測站的問題你知道這個大火嚴重到當天其實有航班因此是延誤了是有延誤的情況所以你說這樣子沒有導致附近的空氣品質受到影響嗎大火沒有導致這個附近空氣品質受到影響嗎所以還讓我們這些測站測出來的這些標準居然是完全是合標準的那部長你不覺得這應該是有問題的嗎"},{"start":190.183,"end":200.973,"text":"因為我說它是一個plume這樣就像說有人抽煙那個煙就這樣潑潑潑可是旁邊旁邊的人不見得在它的上風處不見得不知道那事實上就是說已經發生了這個事但是你空氣品質的測站就是沒有沒有測到沒有落在它的這個所以你的意思是說只要沒有沒有被空氣品質測沒有被這個測"},{"start":210.741,"end":227.047,"text":"測儀測到說有出現空氣品質我們都不算在空污的環境裡不是不是這個因為這個已經開罰了對嘛所以部長我的意思是說顯然客觀事實就是沒有測到那這個在平均上面這個是不是應該要去檢討的一件事情報告委員這個其實蠻難檢討因為我們的密度齁這個再密"},{"start":231.129,"end":249.878,"text":"除非是說我們可能100公尺設一個這個東西因為這個煙流可能就幾十公尺這樣在擴散所以我們除非要花很多的資金然後要設100公尺但是這個代表意義可能不是為了這一次的這個一次的事件來做處理不過因為這個事件處理我們有化學署有現場有監製部長我跟你說因為空氣"},{"start":250.558,"end":269.922,"text":"空氣車站的這個數據從這些事件可以讓我們開始質疑或是覺得說這空氣車站是否值得信任所以我剛才會講到不是說針對這個事件那如果你這樣講的話我舉例以台中來講如果中火附近的我們是不是也會讓百姓開始質疑說那這樣子你的車站到底是不是有公信力的"},{"start":270.562,"end":287.81,"text":"這是我這個小節的第一件事所以我希望部長是不是可以去查一下雖然你說這個是一個什麼往上的現象並沒有碰到這些空瓶儀器可是事實上就是沒有讓在地的居民放心安心嘛那如果你說在地的居民上網去看我去查一下這個車站結果都沒事那我就出門了"},{"start":290.311,"end":300.494,"text":"是這樣嗎這樣子對於在地的居民是不是應該部長可以去思考一下或檢討一下那發生這個事應該要怎麼樣通知因為這就會也接下來問到我下一個問題喔這剛剛第一個小節就是這部分要請部長去確認一下那第二個小節就是說"},{"start":309.053,"end":334.662,"text":"是不是要進一步的檢討這個高風險化學工廠周邊的這個監測的策略要提高這個敏感區域的反應能力因為把這些事件把此次的事件當為一個檢討的案例來討論看是不是要提出我們是不是請部長部內提出一個改善的方向可以給本席這邊來了解因為現在會開始有這樣子高風險的工廠的情況"},{"start":339.339,"end":358.483,"text":"跟委員報告其實對於這種高風險的我們分級之後啊除了平常的跨部的稽查之外對於我們平常的這個我們會去分級分級那在不同的等級裡面我們會去要求這個應變計畫還有我們會再救他的因為他還沒產生災害不過我們都會應變的這邊都會把它做下來這樣子"},{"start":364.504,"end":377.154,"text":"這個如果產生災害就蠻危險的你剛剛這個剛剛這個化骨水如果碰到的話任何一個人我想這都是很所以你剛剛講的還是有點太太好像是不是應該還要再去檢討精進說針對這個部分你沒有什麼你所謂的分級那像這個工廠是第幾級"},{"start":382.079,"end":394.895,"text":"這個工廠因為它其實它運作毒化物質的兩種它這次它剛剛委員所提到的這個青佛酸主要是它的電解液裡面的一個叫做6伏磷酸鋰所以我們針對這個"},{"start":399.339,"end":415.556,"text":"這種儲能電池的工廠我們本來就會SOP裡面啦就如果有災害發生我們就會去測氰酵酸因為你這個是等於是災害發生才後續啦我想要講的是你有沒有預防譬如說預防的機制譬如說在這種高風險的工廠附近你們要不要去我舉例好了"},{"start":415.936,"end":442.367,"text":"是不是要去研議說要不要用一個所謂專屬事故的這個監測點或者是比較微型感測的網路就是說針對這樣子是不是可以更主動在附近比如說已經是很高假設對你們來講是高風險的這個工廠的話你們有沒有更積極的作為這是不是應該要去思考因為如果真的一旦發生了災害又不是說發生了災害我再請毒化署去現場就好了是 這我們會整體再來我們平常就有一個機制這我們會再來檢討"},{"start":444.648,"end":458.484,"text":"另外就是這次的大火造成這個有毒物質的擴散那高雄市的環保局有在網站上面發布警告但是相較於環境部跟這個毒化署的網頁上是沒有任何的說明"},{"start":459.585,"end":480.806,"text":"這是不是也代表說這個兩個同時都是政府機關的相關網頁那你覺得民眾看了這兩個網頁之後要相信誰換個角度來說環境部對於這個火災以及這個有毒物的外洩事件是不是慢了半拍還是根本毫無反應所以你剛剛所謂反應說你們有派毒化署的這個小隊去可是你們在整個訊息的揭露上是完全沒有揭露到的"},{"start":481.647,"end":497.197,"text":"那包含這個部分想要另外問一下高雄的環保局是不是應該要第一時間就有沒有通報我們的毒化署然後再來就是說如果有通報那是什麼時間通報那毒化署是多少的時間內去做反應的"},{"start":499.338,"end":518.309,"text":"這個全台灣各個縣市那一套發生火災擴散那個資料全部都是環境部提供給各個地方環保局因為他們是第一線跟消防局有這個協同的一個作業所以那個資料因為是以地方為主所以但是後面的後勤所有的資料整個系統都是環境部在提供的所以就以他們的為準"},{"start":519.389,"end":542.574,"text":"所以你的意思是說就是環境部網站上不需要有任何的相關的消息嗎因為在地方上的就好跟委員報告這個按照我們的SOP的流程的話當天早上7點15分環保局有通報我們請求我們支援我們大概在一個小時內就到現場那通常我們這種就是會跟當地的指揮官報到之後那麼討論完之後依照去偵檢數據也都會給"},{"start":545.495,"end":563.947,"text":"指揮官所以當天我們為什麼一開始有測到這個青柏酸的微量的話我們也是跟指揮官報告他們就發告警細胞通知民眾然後持續監測一直到傍晚周介就沒有就是青柏酸這部分所以整個的體系就是由當地的指揮官來發布這個相關的訊息"},{"start":567.591,"end":580.941,"text":"但是這個就是也要請環境部是不是有更積極的作為因為他們基本上他們只發布了說有這件事情請大家在家裡不要出去結果最後結束了或怎麼處理的其實民眾也是一無所知啊"},{"start":582.329,"end":602.655,"text":"我們可以在那個因為其實當天早上我們到之後一直到測到周介沒問題我們才檢討完由當地環保局消防局跟業者去處理那這部分我們會在後面的一些會議的時候我們會提出來對啊因為他們收到之後他們就想說請民眾待在家裡就傻傻的待在家裡也不知道這件事情什麼時候解決了"},{"start":604.095,"end":628.869,"text":"對這是一個就是讓人覺得說是不是兩邊的溝通是不夠同步讓對民眾的資訊的交代也不夠負責因為結束了他就太不曉得這部分我們會再跟他們討論因為其實是災害發生之後這到底什麼時候結束其實還沒辦法很快的去去把他說什麼時候預定結束但是如果一旦是應變到某個程度我們會建議地方對你們這個就是沒有所以接下來"},{"start":629.349,"end":647.457,"text":"這個部分要請你們去檢討跟地方政府如果發生相同的事情究竟應該怎麼樣告訴地方的居民你處理到什麼程度他們可以做什麼事不然他一直關在家裡難道就像是COVID-19的期間嗎你必須在家裡隔離這樣最後其實不分藍綠的這個地方的不管是立委或議員其實都認為這個這起火警"},{"start":650.898,"end":664.675,"text":"廠方當然跟主管機關都責無旁貸所以未來都應該要加強演練和設備檢查而且另外希望每小時公告這個空氣的監測然後中央地方共同制定安全的流程剛剛其實我們都有討論到這是應該都要精進的事情"},{"start":667.478,"end":683.277,"text":"那甚至有高雄的在地的立委在小港召開協調會要了經濟部、高雄市政府、廠商代表、里長跟地方人士檢查火災的原因、責任的歸屬跟後續改善的方式但是我們發現環境部完全沒有在裡面"},{"start":684.332,"end":700.441,"text":"有有嗎我們看到你當時有在嗎我們毒化災小組就是像這種事故所有都會都會參加因為那一場會議你們也在裡面因為我們看到那個會議的那個出席的裡面並沒有我們相關的單位有啊好有在裡面那OK所以因為這個事情"},{"start":702.122,"end":722.841,"text":"必須要讓在地方這樣子的工廠已經變成在地上的一個超級風險所以我們剛剛所有的事件請大家把這一次的案件成為一個檢討的一個事件希望不只是高雄未來還有很多的地方都有這樣子超級風險的工廠我們不希望有任何的這個風險和災害或是事故發生"},{"start":723.582,"end":735.031,"text":"尤其是現在不管是地震啊或者是火災啊都很有機會的發生我們覺得這個對於在地地方上的居民是非常的有危害和有風險好那再請部長這邊去檢討好不好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":687,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（10時37分）謝謝主席，有請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：劉委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：彭部長好。前天在高雄有個三元超級電池廠的大火，不僅影響了空氣品質，甚至高雄市政府環保局也發布了細胞簡訊，告知附近民眾有關於鋰電池工廠的爆炸，而且證實有毒的氫氟酸，也就是我們俗稱的化骨水正在外洩中。當然今天大家討論的是光電，我想前面很多人講，可是這也是一個重要的時事問題，如果民眾接觸到這些化骨水，它會穿透組織、侵蝕肌肉骨骼，對皮膚和呼吸道造成刺激，甚至之前也有新聞報導有人接觸到這個而過世。所以想請問部長知不知道有這件事？"],["彭部長啓明：知道，我們化學署就有派大概8位同仁在現場24小時監控。基本上在廠內有微量氫氟酸，但是在整個高雄市區，它的下風處並沒有量到氫氟酸的數值。"],["廖委員偉翔：很好，謝謝部長，但是我接下來就要追問了，針對大火發生的時候，我也看了一下環境部的空氣品質監測，顯示的是一切正常；甚至我也同時抓取了當天吹西南風方向的小港東北方的鳳山測站，也是一切正常，所以想要請教一下部長，當天的這些測站運行是一切正常的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為這是叫做plume，就是煙流，它可能是往上擴散，不見得會經過地面的測站，所以有的會高一點點，但是有的沒有出現這樣的數值。"],["廖委員偉翔：基本上所有的測站我都有去看過，他們的數值完全都是正常，所以這讓我們很質疑測站數據的真實性。還記得我們之前就有質詢過，很多的測站你們是手動可以調整的，而且這個不只是這邊的問題，這也會讓我們質疑全臺灣的空氣品質測站是不是有問題。所以這個部分想要請部長是不是可以回去檢討一下，或是去看一下到底測站有沒有出過狀況？因為這是一件很奇怪的事情，當下發生了這個大火，不只是測站的問題，你知道這個大火嚴重到當天有航班因此延誤了，是有延誤的情況，所以你說這樣的大火沒有導致附近的空氣品質受到影響嗎？我們這些測站測出來的居然還是完全合標準的，部長不覺得這應該是有問題的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：因為我說它是plume，就像有人抽菸，那個煙就這樣擴散，可是旁邊的人不見得在它的上風處……"],["廖委員偉翔：對嘛！事實上就是已經發生了這個事，但是你空氣品質的測站就是沒有測到。"],["彭部長啓明：沒有落在它的這個……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你的意思是，只要沒有被測儀測到有出現空氣品質問題，我們就不算在空污的環境裡了？"],["彭部長啓明：不是、不是，因為這個已經開罰了、嚴重污染。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，所以部長，我的意思是，顯然客觀事實就是沒有測到……"],["彭部長啓明：我們現場……"],["廖委員偉翔：在平均上，這個是不是應該要去檢討的一件事情？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個其實蠻難檢討，因為我們的密度再密，除非可能是一百公尺設一個測站，因為煙流可能就是幾十公尺這樣在擴散，所以我們除非要花很多的資金，然後要一百公尺設站，但是這個代表的意義，可能不是為了這次的、一次的事件來做處理，不過因為這個事件處理，我們化學署現場有監測……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我跟你說，因為空氣測站的數據，從這個事件讓我們開始質疑或覺得空氣測站是否值得信任，所以我剛剛才會講到，不是針對這個事件。我舉臺中為例，如果在中火附近，是不是也會讓百姓開始質疑你的測站到底是不是有公信力？這是第一件事，我希望部長是不是可以去查一下，雖然你說這是一個什麼往上的現象，並沒有碰到這些空品儀器，可是事實上就是沒有讓在地的居民放心、安心嘛！如果在地的居民上網去查一下這個測站的數據，結果都沒事，就放心出門了，是這樣嗎？對於在地的居民，是不是部長可以思考或檢討一下，發生這個事應該要怎麼樣通知？","接下來我問下一個問題，剛剛第一個問題就是這個部分要請部長去確認一下。第二個問題是，是不是要進一步檢討高風險化學工廠周邊的監測策略？要提高敏感區域的反應能力，把此次事件當成一個檢討的案例來討論，是不是請部長、部內提出一個改善的方向，可以給本席這邊了解？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為現在會開始有這樣子高風險工廠的情況。"],["謝署長燕儒：跟委員報告，其實對於這種高風險我們分級之後，除了平常的跨部會稽查之外，平常我們會分級，在不同的等級裡面，我們會要求應變計畫，還有我們會再就它的……因為它還沒產生災害，不過我們應變這部分都會有處理。"],["廖委員偉翔：這個如果產生災害就會滿危險的。"],["謝署長燕儒：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：化骨水如果碰到的話，任何一個人，我想這都是很……所以你剛剛講的還是有點太……是不是應該還要針對這個部分再去檢討精進？"],["謝署長燕儒：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：你所謂的分級，這個工廠是第幾級？"],["謝署長燕儒：這個工廠運作上的毒化物質有兩種，剛剛委員所提到的氫氟酸，主要是它的電解液裡面的一個叫做六氟磷酸鋰，所以針對這種儲能電池的工廠，我們本來的SOP裡面，如果有災害發生，就會去測氫氟酸。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為你這個等於是災害發生才有後續，我想要講的是你有沒有預防機制？譬如在這種高風險的工廠附近，我舉例好了，你們是不是去研議要不要用一個所謂專屬事故的監測點，或者是比較微型感測的網路，針對這樣子的是不是可以更主動地在附近，譬如已經是很高……假設對你們來講是高風險的工廠的話，你們有沒有更積極的作為，這是不是應該要去思考？因為一旦發生災害，又不是說發生了災害再請毒化署去現場就好了。"],["謝署長燕儒：是，這個我們會整體再來……其實我們平常就有這個機制，但我們會再檢討。"],["廖委員偉翔：另外，這一次大火造成有毒物質的擴散，高雄市環保局在網站上面發布警告，但相較於環境部跟毒化署的網頁上是沒有任何的說明，兩個同時都是政府機關的相關網頁，你覺得民眾看了這兩個網頁之後要相信誰？換個角度來說，環境部對於這個火災以及有毒物的外洩事件，是不是慢了半拍？還是根本毫無反應？你剛剛說你們有派毒化署的小隊去，可是你們在整個訊息的揭露上，是完全沒有揭露到的。針對這個部分想要另外問一下，高雄環保局在第一時間有沒有通報毒化署？如果有通報，那是什麼時間通報？毒化署是在多少時間內去做反應的？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，全臺灣各個縣市的那一套發生火災擴散的資料，全部都是環境部提供給各個地方環保局，因為他們是第一線，跟消防局有協同的作業，因為是以地方為主，但是後面後勤的所有資料，整個系統都是環境部在提供的，所以就以他們的為準。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你的意思是說環境部網站上不需要有任何相關的消息，有地方上的就好？"],["謝署長燕儒：跟委員報告，按照我們SOP流程，當天早上7點15分環保局有通報我們，請求我們支援，我們大概在1個小時內就到現場，通常這種我們就是跟當地的指揮官報到，討論完之後去增減數據，也都會給指揮官，所以當天一開始有測到微量氫氟酸，我們也是跟指揮官報告，他們就發告警細胞通知民眾，然後持續監測一直到傍晚，周界就沒有氫氟酸這部分，所以整個的體系就是由當地的指揮官來發布相關的訊息。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是這個也要請環境部有更積極的作為，因為基本上他們只發布說有這件事情，請大家在家裡不要出去，結果最後結束了或怎麼處理的，其實民眾也是一無所知啊！"],["謝署長燕儒：這我們可以在那個……其實當天早上我們到之後，一直到測到周界沒問題、檢討完，才由當地環保局、消防局跟業者去處理，這部分在後面一些會議的時候，我們會提出來。"],["廖委員偉翔：對啊！因為他們收到之後，就說請民眾待在家裡，結果民眾就傻傻的待在家裡，也不知道這件事情什麼時候解決了。"],["謝署長燕儒：是、是、是。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，這就讓人覺得是不是兩邊的溝通不夠同步，對民眾的資訊交代也不夠負責，因為結束了他也不曉得。"],["謝署長燕儒：這部分我們會再跟他們討論，因為災害發生之後，到底什麼時候結束，其實還沒辦法很快的預告它什麼時候結束，但是一旦應變到某個程度，我們會建議地方來跟民眾……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，你們這個就是沒有，所以接下來這個部分要請你們跟地方政府去檢討，如果發生相同的事情，究竟應該怎麼樣告訴地方的居民你處理到什麼程度、他們可以做什麼事，不然他一直關在家裡，難道就像是COVID-19期間，你必須在家裡隔離嗎？"],["謝署長燕儒：是，我們會再跟他們溝通。"],["廖委員偉翔：最後，其實不分藍綠的地方立委或議員，都認為這起火警廠方跟主管機關都責無旁貸，所以未來都應該要加強演練和設備檢查，另外希望每小時公告空氣的監測，然後中央、地方共同制定安全的流程，剛剛其實我們都有討論到，這些都是應該精進的事情。甚至有高雄在地的立委在小港召開協調會，邀了經濟部、高雄市政府、廠商代表、里長跟地方人士檢查火災的原因、責任的歸屬跟後續改善的方式，但是我們發現環境部完全沒有在裡面。"],["謝署長燕儒：有。"],["廖委員偉翔：有嗎？你當時有在嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我們毒化災小組就是像這種事故，所有都會參加，因為毒化災……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以那一場會議，你們也在裡面？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為我看到那個會議的出席名單裡面，並沒有你們相關的單位。"],["謝署長燕儒：有。"],["廖委員偉翔：有在裡面，那OK。因為這樣的工廠已經變成在地的一個超級風險，所以我們剛剛講的所有問題，請大家把這一次的事件列為一個檢討案例，不只是高雄，未來還有很多地方都有這樣子超級風險的工廠，我們不希望有任何的風險和災害或事故發生，尤其是現在，不管是地震或者火災都很有機會發生，我們覺得這個對於在地、地方上的居民是非常有危害和風險的，再請部長這邊去檢討，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖委員、謝謝部長、署長。","接續我們請涂權吉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":238,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-20","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","涂權吉","陳菁徽","黃秀芳","林淑芬","王正旭","黃國昌","楊曜","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳冠廷","陳瑩","盧縣一","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2025-07-16"],"gazette_id":"1146701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部部長、海洋委員會、農業部、內政部、國防部、金融監督管理委員會針\n對「光電設施對環境影響情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146701_00003"}}}