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{\"word\": \"無\", \"start\": 106.439, \"end\": 106.679, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"毒\", \"start\": 106.679, \"end\": 107.119, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 107.119, \"end\": 107.139, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"點\"}]}, {\"start\": 108.8, \"end\": 123.1, \"text\": \"無毒的垃圾也是垃圾而且它裡面也是含有一些重金屬那如果沒有妥善的拆解處理它長期的堆置一定也會影響我們土壤跟地下水的問題吧是 一定會 對\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"無\", \"start\": 108.8, \"end\": 109.0, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"毒\", \"start\": 109.0, \"end\": 109.161, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 109.161, \"end\": 109.301, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"垃\", \"start\": 109.301, \"end\": 109.541, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"圾\", \"start\": 109.541, \"end\": 109.701, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 109.701, \"end\": 109.862, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 109.862, \"end\": 110.002, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"垃\", \"start\": 110.002, \"end\": 110.242, \"score\": 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{\"word\": \"屬\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 113.707, \"end\": 114.328, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 114.328, \"end\": 114.468, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 114.468, \"end\": 115.009, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 115.009, \"end\": 115.129, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 115.129, \"end\": 115.289, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"妥\", \"start\": 115.289, \"end\": 115.529, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"善\", \"start\": 115.529, \"end\": 115.71, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 115.71, \"end\": 115.91, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"拆\", \"start\": 115.91, \"end\": 116.13, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 116.13, \"end\": 116.571, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 116.571, \"end\": 117.091, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 117.091, \"end\": 117.672, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 117.672, \"end\": 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248.616, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"賠\"}]}, {\"start\": 251.157, \"end\": 279.996, \"text\": \"那他另外一個人要跟那個簽約那這個簽約我所知道都在進行當中那簽完約之後大概幾天之內就可以送到那個回收業者那他就可以去做去化的一個工作那去化的工作呢因為我們現在量能我們過去的量能沒有那麼大所以等於是說我們現在他們預估說是24小時一直不斷的加班希望一個半月可以去化掉等於是說他把這個運到這個回收業者處理業者的話大概花一個半月才可以處理掉\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 251.157, \"end\": 251.337, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 251.337, \"end\": 251.518, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"另\", \"start\": 251.518, \"end\": 251.658, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 251.658, \"end\": 251.778, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 251.778, \"end\": 251.838, \"score\": 0.766}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 251.838, \"end\": 252.038, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 252.038, \"end\": 252.138, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 252.138, \"end\": 252.238, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 252.238, \"end\": 252.818, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"掉\", \"start\": 279.976, \"end\": 279.996, \"score\": 0.779}]}, {\"start\": 280.196, \"end\": 295.331, \"text\": \"所以我們剛剛講的意思是說我們現在其實處理量能就不夠所以我們這對於這個暴增的所以部長意思說就是請業者用加班的方式他們表示說他們也願意因為這個是國難所以他們也願意很積極的配合來處理\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 280.196, \"end\": 280.296, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 280.296, \"end\": 280.376, \"score\": 0.736}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 280.376, \"end\": 281.057, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 281.057, \"end\": 281.177, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 281.177, \"end\": 281.277, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"思\", \"start\": 281.277, \"end\": 281.457, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 281.457, \"end\": 281.657, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 281.657, \"end\": 282.118, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"班\", \"start\": 288.524, \"end\": 288.685, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 288.685, \"end\": 288.805, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 288.805, \"end\": 288.965, \"score\": 0.708}, {\"word\": \"式\", \"start\": 288.965, \"end\": 289.525, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 289.525, \"end\": 290.787, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"表\", \"start\": 290.787, \"end\": 291.027, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"示\", \"start\": 291.027, \"end\": 291.387, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 291.387, \"end\": 291.627, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 291.627, \"end\": 291.948, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"願\"}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 291.948, \"end\": 292.428, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 292.428, \"end\": 292.789, \"score\": 0.765}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 292.789, \"end\": 293.77, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"難\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 293.77, \"end\": 293.87, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 293.87, \"end\": 293.93, \"score\": 0.49}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 293.93, \"end\": 294.13, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 294.13, \"end\": 294.45, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"願\"}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 294.45, \"end\": 294.871, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 294.871, \"end\": 294.991, \"score\": 0.724}, {\"word\": \"積\"}, {\"word\": \"極\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 294.991, \"end\": 295.111, \"score\": 0.746}, {\"word\": \"配\", \"start\": 295.111, \"end\": 295.231, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 295.231, \"end\": 295.311, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 295.311, \"end\": 295.331, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 296.252, \"end\": 316.452, \"text\": 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{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"圖\"}, {\"word\": \"惠\", \"start\": 730.399, \"end\": 730.599, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 730.599, \"end\": 730.619, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:10,975 --> 00:00:12,876\n好謝謝主席那請問彭部長\n\n2\n00:00:18,447 --> 00:00:36,276\n好彭副長那個太陽光電也是我們能源轉型的重要工具那可是我們也要知道綠能其實它也不是百分之百的環保尤其這太陽能板據我們了解它從製造到設置還有最後它的退役\n\n3\n00:00:36,829 --> 00:01:00,018\n其實它每一個階段都有淺藏的環境的風險我們看一下我們這個影片這個它在製造階段的時候有高耗能也產生溫室氣體還有涉及我們重金屬跟化學的製程那它設置的過程當然也涉及我們農地埤塘以及海岸還有生態漆地甚至我們也會\n\n4\n00:01:01,398 --> 00:01:23,765\n有可能破壞碳會的功能那在運轉的階段影響土地跟水文系統那最後退場的時候如果沒有良好的廢棄物管理或者回收計畫那這個模組就是我們新世代的有害廢棄物這個部長您應該同意吧我是同意但是所有的能源\n\n5\n00:01:25,426 --> 00:01:47,139\n除非我們不要能源所有的能源也都有類似一模一樣可以分門別類的一個問題所以我們最後我們是環境部是關注最後一個廢棄物管理跟回收計畫就是我們的責任對所以我們針對這個畢竟因為剛剛有講那這個廢棄物你們一直說它是無毒嘛對不對那可是無毒來講重點\n\n6\n00:01:48,800 --> 00:02:03,100\n無毒的垃圾也是垃圾而且它裡面也是含有一些重金屬那如果沒有妥善的拆解處理它長期的堆置一定也會影響我們土壤跟地下水的問題吧是一定會對\n\n7\n00:02:05,011 --> 00:02:30,985\n那所以我們針對這個廢棄太陽能模組他也是屬於我們廢清法的一部分那針對這部分我們也要有合格清除處理的廠商才能夠回收那我剛有聽部長的報告你說目前有幾家四家後續也有一些人想要投入的那目前我們的量能大概一個月大概4000多噸處理4000多噸\n\n8\n00:02:34,332 --> 00:02:56,554\n那根據我們循環署預估我們在2035年的時候大概會產生5萬噸的太陽能模板那如果以我們目前的量能大概算起來大概只能處理差不多10%我們是那個是一個月我們如果一年的話大概就要將近5萬噸啦所以目前的量是應該是夠啦\n\n9\n00:02:57,955 --> 00:03:22,467\n但是因為它是一個累積型的所以我們目前也在我們也希望因為我們有去特別了解這個業者他大概生態是什麼然後我們也希望他可以做得更好那我們知道業者大概92%都可以回收啦所以基本上我們希望他的比例可以拉高然後那個產業可以活得更健全一點所以現在重點問題就是我們現在即使能夠處理現在的量能\n\n10\n00:03:23,127 --> 00:03:40,886\n大概就已經有可能就沒有辦法負荷那像這次風災整個回收量是暴增啊那我們這樣子暴增那我們針對這一部分我們也沒有辦法短期去處理那這環境污染的部分是由環境部跟地方政府在負擔嗎\n\n11\n00:03:41,887 --> 00:04:08,616\n對包委員這個有兩個部分一個是說它這個壞掉的要趕快能夠堆置在一個地方例如說在這個皮糖能夠清除掉然後趕快跟這個回收的業者處理的業者能夠簽約能夠運到回收的業者做全循環的處理所以有兩個階段那第一個階段呢我所知道是說他們正在處理這個事情因為他們必須因為這個都是資產所以他們必須跟保險公司能夠來確認能夠得到理賠\n\n12\n00:04:11,157 --> 00:04:39,996\n那他另外一個人要跟那個簽約那這個簽約我所知道都在進行當中那簽完約之後大概幾天之內就可以送到那個回收業者那他就可以去做去化的一個工作那去化的工作呢因為我們現在量能我們過去的量能沒有那麼大所以等於是說我們現在他們預估說是24小時一直不斷的加班希望一個半月可以去化掉等於是說他把這個運到這個回收業者處理業者的話大概花一個半月才可以處理掉\n\n13\n00:04:40,196 --> 00:04:55,331\n所以我們剛剛講的意思是說我們現在其實處理量能就不夠所以我們這對於這個暴增的所以部長意思說就是請業者用加班的方式他們表示說他們也願意因為這個是國難所以他們也願意很積極的配合來處理\n\n14\n00:04:56,252 --> 00:05:16,452\n因為我們擔心這一部分這個廢棄物堆置久了畢竟對我們整個環境生態一定有重大的影響那我們所以環境部就是限期大概一個半月內完成還是只能一個半月就是說我們大型的像這個大型的大概是兩個禮拜希望兩個禮拜一定要給我清除完整不然我們就要廢清法開罰\n\n15\n00:05:17,353 --> 00:05:44,972\n然後如果小型的比較小量的一個禮拜我們其實我們的這個跟地方環保局都有協調說希望你們盡快可以去處理完所以所有訂定時間如果沒有辦法處理會有罰則嗎會有罰則例如說6萬到300萬好那希望這個部分我們環境部來盡速處理以免造成我們環境生態的影響那我們再請一下我們能源署的理事長\n\n16\n00:05:54,722 --> 00:06:11,078\n委員好那個署長我請問一下還有部長那我們這一次這個屏東福台市的光電暗產暗產它這個總共的費用總共經費是多少錢\n\n17\n00:06:13,002 --> 00:06:31,844\n我們是補助1億多嘛是不是屏東是不是對屏東的案場它總共經費是3億那政府補助1.3億總共3億政府補助1.3億全部是3億全部是3億是那可是好像說這個還沒有商轉嘛\n\n18\n00:06:32,644 --> 00:06:57,556\n沒有他是一個實驗計畫那他必須要在他實驗完成前他到期日是115年的6月30那他必須要完成他整個試驗計畫那中間他會分階段的去做試驗那如果試驗失敗那這次看起來他的試驗是沒有成功那他還要再繼續去改善然後做試驗那最終的期限是到明年的6月30\n\n19\n00:06:58,516 --> 00:07:21,845\n他必須要完成他原來計畫書裡面受補助的項目如果沒有完成的話我們會扣回他的補助款所以我們現在意思是說因為這個風災他已經變成海廢垃圾那重點所以萬一他這個實驗沒有成功的話呢我們就會扣回他的補助款扣回他的補助款所以我們現在擔心說你看這個\n\n20\n00:07:22,825 --> 00:07:48,974\n事情爆發之後這個塑膠浮具堆滿沙灘而且說這個模具也在海岸邊那這個用人民的納稅人錢來做這個實驗然後災後我們感覺說這個整個好像責任不明監管也缺失環境損害的部分好像也沒有明確到底是環境部還是經濟部的責任還是廠商的責任好像沒有很明確\n\n21\n00:07:51,976 --> 00:08:13,144\n這個責任是明確的這是廠商他要依他的責任去清理那如果他沒有完成清理的話那在政府機關就會去開罰去處罰他那所以清理的責任是他那目前他也清理完畢但是有少部分因為卡在消波塊他要拿起來比較困難那非常少數那目前基本上他已經清理完畢了\n\n22\n00:08:13,604 --> 00:08:31,911\n那這清理的費用是廠商全額支付是是那我們補助的部分有沒有包含這個裡面的清理費用還是只有實驗當然不包含只有實驗的費用只有他做實驗的費用那我們目前光電設施針對抗風的能力有統一的標準嗎\n\n23\n00:08:33,111 --> 00:08:54,287\n目前來講光電設施它是比照一般建築物的標準去設定它的這個抗風的能力也就是說它抗風的能力要跟我們建管法規定建築的那個能力強度是一樣的而且它要經過技師的簽證才能夠來設置所以它都有經過我們結構的安全審查\n\n24\n00:08:55,027 --> 00:09:13,377\n有他當時都要經過這樣的一個審查然後縣政府同意之後才能放在那個海面上所以那時候好像講說應該可以到16到18級他這一個案的設計我可能要確認一下我的印象中好像是14級風然後他是浪高7米以上\n\n25\n00:09:14,977 --> 00:09:40,016\n因為那時候好像我們看報導好像說預計應該到16到18級風可是這次根本就沒打到就摧毀掉了沒有因為它目前是分階段在試驗那它會逐步逐步的試驗它現在是福台在那邊那未來它可能會進一步除了福台還有太陽能板當然要看它能不能試驗到那個階段不過目前看起來它的試驗是沒有成功\n\n26\n00:09:41,044 --> 00:10:06,911\n所以我們以後政府的補助應該是不是要把這個風險控管也要綁在一起不然以後後續一些問題全部都是由廠商來處理萬一廠商沒辦法處理呢不會因為我們在他核准的時候他就要繳我們補助是補助他1.35億他要繳同額的旅月保證金1.35億在政府這邊那所以我們到時候是完全扣得到錢的\n\n27\n00:10:08,155 --> 00:10:31,747\n所以萬一他沒辦法做那還是有鋁鋁保證金在那邊可以做對銅鵝的鋁鋁保證金所以我們經過這一次的事件我覺得環境部應該針對這個應該要建立明確的退場跟污染處理的機制是不是應該要有明確的退場跟環境污染處理的機制讓地方政府來配合\n\n28\n00:10:32,507 --> 00:10:54,876\n基本上光電的回收機制是很清楚的但是這個是天災啦那目前其實整個太陽能板整個淘汰換的處理機制是明確的那我們未來的廢新法修正之後我們環境部應該會承擔更多的責任啦所以我們會參酌委員的意見所以未來我們當然是希望能夠更完整的方式去走那不過這次是天災這突然間的量\n\n29\n00:10:55,836 --> 00:11:15,688\n那因為以前沒有從嘉義登陸的颱風而且那麼的大所以這次是一個例外但是我們會再從這次來裡面來說的話重新再來檢討一次對我們建議說這個既然是綠能我們應該盡量要做到真正的環保應該很多部分我們跨部會應該要來配合不然這個\n\n30\n00:11:16,508 --> 00:11:37,999\n你號稱綠能可是我覺得說你像一些他的太陽光電這些模組其實對我們很多民眾來講也是一個隱憂啊你這將來的處理的問題還有這個廢棄物整體堆置的問題不要說他好像好像號稱綠能事實上真的做下來並沒有達到這個很高綠能的標準啊\n\n31\n00:11:40,045 --> 00:11:45,668\n其實任何的能源都有它的問題這次是凸顯了光電碼的問題那我們會從這次的裡面會再從這個機制是不是能夠更快來去化來解決這個我們的確要討論不過這次是因為這個量突然之間冒出了14萬噸14萬片所以這個是我們要特別再來檢討的\n\n32\n00:12:00,154 --> 00:12:10,619\n所以我說這部分也剛好凸顯這問題所以希望環境部跟經濟部針對還有廠商這些機制應該要訂定一個完善的配套OK好謝謝韋我們會再來檢討好謝謝部長謝謝謝謝圖惠謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10975\t12876\t好 謝謝主席 那請問彭部長\n18447\t36276\t好 彭副長那個太陽光電也是我們能源轉型的重要工具那可是我們也要知道綠能其實它也不是百分之百的環保尤其這太陽能板據我們了解它從製造到設置還有最後它的退役\n36829\t60018\t其實它每一個階段都有淺藏的環境的風險我們看一下我們這個影片這個它在製造階段的時候有高耗能也產生溫室氣體還有涉及我們重金屬跟化學的製程那它設置的過程當然也涉及我們農地 埤塘以及海岸還有生態漆地甚至我們也會\n61398\t83765\t有可能破壞碳會的功能那在運轉的階段影響土地跟水文系統那最後退場的時候如果沒有良好的廢棄物管理或者回收計畫那這個模組就是我們新世代的有害廢棄物這個部長您應該同意吧我是同意但是所有的能源\n85426\t107139\t除非我們不要能源所有的能源也都有類似一模一樣可以分門別類的一個問題所以我們最後我們是環境部是關注最後一個廢棄物管理跟回收計畫就是我們的責任對所以我們針對這個畢竟因為剛剛有講那這個廢棄物你們一直說它是無毒嘛對不對那可是無毒來講重點\n108800\t123100\t無毒的垃圾也是垃圾而且它裡面也是含有一些重金屬那如果沒有妥善的拆解處理它長期的堆置一定也會影響我們土壤跟地下水的問題吧是 一定會 對\n125011\t150985\t那所以我們針對這個廢棄太陽能模組他也是屬於我們廢清法的一部分那針對這部分我們也要有合格清除處理的廠商才能夠回收那我剛有聽部長的報告你說目前有幾家四家後續也有一些人想要投入的那目前我們的量能大概一個月大概4000多噸處理4000多噸\n154332\t176554\t那根據我們循環署預估我們在2035年的時候大概會產生5萬噸的太陽能模板那如果以我們目前的量能大概算起來大概只能處理差不多10%我們是那個是一個月我們如果一年的話大概就要將近5萬噸啦所以目前的量是應該是夠啦\n177955\t202467\t但是因為它是一個累積型的所以我們目前也在我們也希望因為我們有去特別了解這個業者他大概生態是什麼然後我們也希望他可以做得更好那我們知道業者大概92%都可以回收啦所以基本上我們希望他的比例可以拉高然後那個產業可以活得更健全一點所以現在重點問題就是我們現在即使能夠處理現在的量能\n203127\t220886\t大概就已經有可能就沒有辦法負荷那像這次風災整個回收量是暴增啊那我們這樣子暴增那我們針對這一部分我們也沒有辦法短期去處理那這環境污染的部分是由環境部跟地方政府在負擔嗎\n221887\t248616\t對 包委員這個有兩個部分一個是說它這個壞掉的要趕快能夠堆置在一個地方例如說在這個皮糖能夠清除掉然後趕快跟這個回收的業者處理的業者能夠簽約能夠運到回收的業者做全循環的處理所以有兩個階段那第一個階段呢我所知道是說他們正在處理這個事情因為他們必須因為這個都是資產所以他們必須跟保險公司能夠來確認能夠得到理賠\n251157\t279996\t那他另外一個人要跟那個簽約那這個簽約我所知道都在進行當中那簽完約之後大概幾天之內就可以送到那個回收業者那他就可以去做去化的一個工作那去化的工作呢因為我們現在量能我們過去的量能沒有那麼大所以等於是說我們現在他們預估說是24小時一直不斷的加班希望一個半月可以去化掉等於是說他把這個運到這個回收業者處理業者的話大概花一個半月才可以處理掉\n280196\t295331\t所以我們剛剛講的意思是說我們現在其實處理量能就不夠所以我們這對於這個暴增的所以部長意思說就是請業者用加班的方式他們表示說他們也願意因為這個是國難所以他們也願意很積極的配合來處理\n296252\t316452\t因為我們擔心這一部分這個廢棄物堆置久了畢竟對我們整個環境生態一定有重大的影響那我們所以環境部就是限期大概一個半月內完成還是只能一個半月就是說我們大型的像這個大型的大概是兩個禮拜希望兩個禮拜一定要給我清除完整不然我們就要廢清法開罰\n317353\t344972\t然後如果小型的比較小量的一個禮拜我們其實我們的這個跟地方環保局都有協調說希望你們盡快可以去處理完所以所有訂定時間如果沒有辦法處理會有罰則嗎會有罰則例如說6萬到300萬好那希望這個部分我們環境部來盡速處理以免造成我們環境生態的影響那我們再請一下我們能源署的理事長\n354722\t371078\t委員好那個署長我請問一下還有部長那我們這一次這個屏東福台市的光電暗產暗產它這個總共的費用總共經費是多少錢\n373002\t391844\t我們是補助1億多嘛是不是屏東是不是對屏東的案場它總共經費是3億那政府補助1.3億總共3億政府補助1.3億全部是3億全部是3億是那可是好像說這個還沒有商轉嘛\n392644\t417556\t沒有 他是一個實驗計畫那他必須要在他實驗完成前他到期日是115年的6月30那他必須要完成他整個試驗計畫那中間他會分階段的去做試驗那如果試驗失敗那這次看起來他的試驗是沒有成功那他還要再繼續去改善然後做試驗那最終的期限是到明年的6月30\n418516\t441845\t他必須要完成他原來計畫書裡面受補助的項目如果沒有完成的話我們會扣回他的補助款所以我們現在意思是說因為這個風災他已經變成海廢垃圾那重點所以萬一他這個實驗沒有成功的話呢我們就會扣回他的補助款扣回他的補助款所以我們現在擔心說你看這個\n442825\t468974\t事情爆發之後這個塑膠浮具堆滿沙灘而且說這個模具也在海岸邊那這個用人民的納稅人錢來做這個實驗然後災後我們感覺說這個整個好像責任不明監管也缺失環境損害的部分好像也沒有明確到底是環境部還是經濟部的責任還是廠商的責任好像沒有很明確\n471976\t493144\t這個責任是明確的這是廠商他要依他的責任去清理那如果他沒有完成清理的話那在政府機關就會去開罰去處罰他那所以清理的責任是他那目前他也清理完畢但是有少部分因為卡在消波塊他要拿起來比較困難那非常少數那目前基本上他已經清理完畢了\n493604\t511911\t那這清理的費用是廠商全額支付是是那我們補助的部分有沒有包含這個裡面的清理費用還是只有實驗當然不包含只有實驗的費用只有他做實驗的費用那我們目前光電設施針對抗風的能力有統一的標準嗎\n513111\t534287\t目前來講光電設施它是比照一般建築物的標準去設定它的這個抗風的能力也就是說它抗風的能力要跟我們建管法規定建築的那個能力強度是一樣的而且它要經過技師的簽證才能夠來設置所以它都有經過我們結構的安全審查\n535027\t553377\t有 他當時都要經過這樣的一個審查然後縣政府同意之後才能放在那個海面上所以那時候好像講說應該可以到16到18級他這一個案的設計我可能要確認一下我的印象中好像是14級風然後他是浪高7米以上\n554977\t580016\t因為那時候好像我們看報導好像說預計應該到16到18級風可是這次根本就沒打到就摧毀掉了沒有 因為它目前是分階段在試驗那它會逐步逐步的試驗它現在是福台在那邊那未來它可能會進一步除了福台還有太陽能板當然要看它能不能試驗到那個階段不過目前看起來它的試驗是沒有成功\n581044\t606911\t所以我們以後政府的補助應該是不是要把這個風險控管也要綁在一起不然以後後續一些問題全部都是由廠商來處理萬一廠商沒辦法處理呢不會 因為我們在他核准的時候他就要繳我們補助是補助他1.35億他要繳同額的旅月保證金1.35億在政府這邊那所以我們到時候是完全扣得到錢的\n608155\t631747\t所以萬一他沒辦法做 那還是有鋁鋁保證金在那邊可以做對 銅鵝的鋁鋁保證金所以我們經過這一次的事件我覺得環境部應該針對這個應該要建立明確的退場跟污染處理的機制是不是應該要有明確的退場跟環境污染處理的機制讓地方政府來配合\n632507\t654876\t基本上光電的回收機制是很清楚的但是這個是天災啦那目前其實整個太陽能板整個淘汰換的處理機制是明確的那我們未來的廢新法修正之後我們環境部應該會承擔更多的責任啦所以我們會參酌委員的意見所以未來我們當然是希望能夠更完整的方式去走那不過這次是天災這突然間的量\n655836\t675688\t那因為以前沒有從嘉義登陸的颱風而且那麼的大所以這次是一個例外但是我們會再從這次來裡面來說的話重新再來檢討一次對我們建議說這個既然是綠能我們應該盡量要做到真正的環保應該很多部分我們跨部會應該要來配合不然這個\n676508\t697999\t你號稱綠能可是我覺得說你像一些他的太陽光電這些模組其實對我們很多民眾來講也是一個隱憂啊你這將來的處理的問題還有這個廢棄物整體堆置的問題不要說他好像好像號稱綠能事實上真的做下來並沒有達到這個很高綠能的標準啊\n700045\t705668\t其實任何的能源都有它的問題這次是凸顯了光電碼的問題那我們會從這次的裡面會再從這個機制是不是能夠更快來去化來解決這個我們的確要討論不過這次是因為這個量突然之間冒出了14萬噸14萬片所以這個是我們要特別再來檢討的\n720154\t730619\t所以我說這部分也剛好凸顯這問題所以希望環境部跟經濟部針對還有廠商這些機制應該要訂定一個完善的配套OK好謝謝韋我們會再來檢討好謝謝部長謝謝謝謝圖惠謝謝部長\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 那請問彭部長\n好 彭副長那個太陽光電也是我們能源轉型的重要工具那可是我們也要知道綠能其實它也不是百分之百的環保尤其這太陽能板據我們了解它從製造到設置還有最後它的退役\n其實它每一個階段都有淺藏的環境的風險我們看一下我們這個影片這個它在製造階段的時候有高耗能也產生溫室氣體還有涉及我們重金屬跟化學的製程那它設置的過程當然也涉及我們農地 埤塘以及海岸還有生態漆地甚至我們也會\n有可能破壞碳會的功能那在運轉的階段影響土地跟水文系統那最後退場的時候如果沒有良好的廢棄物管理或者回收計畫那這個模組就是我們新世代的有害廢棄物這個部長您應該同意吧我是同意但是所有的能源\n除非我們不要能源所有的能源也都有類似一模一樣可以分門別類的一個問題所以我們最後我們是環境部是關注最後一個廢棄物管理跟回收計畫就是我們的責任對所以我們針對這個畢竟因為剛剛有講那這個廢棄物你們一直說它是無毒嘛對不對那可是無毒來講重點\n無毒的垃圾也是垃圾而且它裡面也是含有一些重金屬那如果沒有妥善的拆解處理它長期的堆置一定也會影響我們土壤跟地下水的問題吧是 一定會 對\n那所以我們針對這個廢棄太陽能模組他也是屬於我們廢清法的一部分那針對這部分我們也要有合格清除處理的廠商才能夠回收那我剛有聽部長的報告你說目前有幾家四家後續也有一些人想要投入的那目前我們的量能大概一個月大概4000多噸處理4000多噸\n那根據我們循環署預估我們在2035年的時候大概會產生5萬噸的太陽能模板那如果以我們目前的量能大概算起來大概只能處理差不多10%我們是那個是一個月我們如果一年的話大概就要將近5萬噸啦所以目前的量是應該是夠啦\n但是因為它是一個累積型的所以我們目前也在我們也希望因為我們有去特別了解這個業者他大概生態是什麼然後我們也希望他可以做得更好那我們知道業者大概92%都可以回收啦所以基本上我們希望他的比例可以拉高然後那個產業可以活得更健全一點所以現在重點問題就是我們現在即使能夠處理現在的量能\n大概就已經有可能就沒有辦法負荷那像這次風災整個回收量是暴增啊那我們這樣子暴增那我們針對這一部分我們也沒有辦法短期去處理那這環境污染的部分是由環境部跟地方政府在負擔嗎\n對 包委員這個有兩個部分一個是說它這個壞掉的要趕快能夠堆置在一個地方例如說在這個皮糖能夠清除掉然後趕快跟這個回收的業者處理的業者能夠簽約能夠運到回收的業者做全循環的處理所以有兩個階段那第一個階段呢我所知道是說他們正在處理這個事情因為他們必須因為這個都是資產所以他們必須跟保險公司能夠來確認能夠得到理賠\n那他另外一個人要跟那個簽約那這個簽約我所知道都在進行當中那簽完約之後大概幾天之內就可以送到那個回收業者那他就可以去做去化的一個工作那去化的工作呢因為我們現在量能我們過去的量能沒有那麼大所以等於是說我們現在他們預估說是24小時一直不斷的加班希望一個半月可以去化掉等於是說他把這個運到這個回收業者處理業者的話大概花一個半月才可以處理掉\n所以我們剛剛講的意思是說我們現在其實處理量能就不夠所以我們這對於這個暴增的所以部長意思說就是請業者用加班的方式他們表示說他們也願意因為這個是國難所以他們也願意很積極的配合來處理\n因為我們擔心這一部分這個廢棄物堆置久了畢竟對我們整個環境生態一定有重大的影響那我們所以環境部就是限期大概一個半月內完成還是只能一個半月就是說我們大型的像這個大型的大概是兩個禮拜希望兩個禮拜一定要給我清除完整不然我們就要廢清法開罰\n然後如果小型的比較小量的一個禮拜我們其實我們的這個跟地方環保局都有協調說希望你們盡快可以去處理完所以所有訂定時間如果沒有辦法處理會有罰則嗎會有罰則例如說6萬到300萬好那希望這個部分我們環境部來盡速處理以免造成我們環境生態的影響那我們再請一下我們能源署的理事長\n委員好那個署長我請問一下還有部長那我們這一次這個屏東福台市的光電暗產暗產它這個總共的費用總共經費是多少錢\n我們是補助1億多嘛是不是屏東是不是對屏東的案場它總共經費是3億那政府補助1.3億總共3億政府補助1.3億全部是3億全部是3億是那可是好像說這個還沒有商轉嘛\n沒有 他是一個實驗計畫那他必須要在他實驗完成前他到期日是115年的6月30那他必須要完成他整個試驗計畫那中間他會分階段的去做試驗那如果試驗失敗那這次看起來他的試驗是沒有成功那他還要再繼續去改善然後做試驗那最終的期限是到明年的6月30\n他必須要完成他原來計畫書裡面受補助的項目如果沒有完成的話我們會扣回他的補助款所以我們現在意思是說因為這個風災他已經變成海廢垃圾那重點所以萬一他這個實驗沒有成功的話呢我們就會扣回他的補助款扣回他的補助款所以我們現在擔心說你看這個\n事情爆發之後這個塑膠浮具堆滿沙灘而且說這個模具也在海岸邊那這個用人民的納稅人錢來做這個實驗然後災後我們感覺說這個整個好像責任不明監管也缺失環境損害的部分好像也沒有明確到底是環境部還是經濟部的責任還是廠商的責任好像沒有很明確\n這個責任是明確的這是廠商他要依他的責任去清理那如果他沒有完成清理的話那在政府機關就會去開罰去處罰他那所以清理的責任是他那目前他也清理完畢但是有少部分因為卡在消波塊他要拿起來比較困難那非常少數那目前基本上他已經清理完畢了\n那這清理的費用是廠商全額支付是是那我們補助的部分有沒有包含這個裡面的清理費用還是只有實驗當然不包含只有實驗的費用只有他做實驗的費用那我們目前光電設施針對抗風的能力有統一的標準嗎\n目前來講光電設施它是比照一般建築物的標準去設定它的這個抗風的能力也就是說它抗風的能力要跟我們建管法規定建築的那個能力強度是一樣的而且它要經過技師的簽證才能夠來設置所以它都有經過我們結構的安全審查\n有 他當時都要經過這樣的一個審查然後縣政府同意之後才能放在那個海面上所以那時候好像講說應該可以到16到18級他這一個案的設計我可能要確認一下我的印象中好像是14級風然後他是浪高7米以上\n因為那時候好像我們看報導好像說預計應該到16到18級風可是這次根本就沒打到就摧毀掉了沒有 因為它目前是分階段在試驗那它會逐步逐步的試驗它現在是福台在那邊那未來它可能會進一步除了福台還有太陽能板當然要看它能不能試驗到那個階段不過目前看起來它的試驗是沒有成功\n所以我們以後政府的補助應該是不是要把這個風險控管也要綁在一起不然以後後續一些問題全部都是由廠商來處理萬一廠商沒辦法處理呢不會 因為我們在他核准的時候他就要繳我們補助是補助他1.35億他要繳同額的旅月保證金1.35億在政府這邊那所以我們到時候是完全扣得到錢的\n所以萬一他沒辦法做 那還是有鋁鋁保證金在那邊可以做對 銅鵝的鋁鋁保證金所以我們經過這一次的事件我覺得環境部應該針對這個應該要建立明確的退場跟污染處理的機制是不是應該要有明確的退場跟環境污染處理的機制讓地方政府來配合\n基本上光電的回收機制是很清楚的但是這個是天災啦那目前其實整個太陽能板整個淘汰換的處理機制是明確的那我們未來的廢新法修正之後我們環境部應該會承擔更多的責任啦所以我們會參酌委員的意見所以未來我們當然是希望能夠更完整的方式去走那不過這次是天災這突然間的量\n那因為以前沒有從嘉義登陸的颱風而且那麼的大所以這次是一個例外但是我們會再從這次來裡面來說的話重新再來檢討一次對我們建議說這個既然是綠能我們應該盡量要做到真正的環保應該很多部分我們跨部會應該要來配合不然這個\n你號稱綠能可是我覺得說你像一些他的太陽光電這些模組其實對我們很多民眾來講也是一個隱憂啊你這將來的處理的問題還有這個廢棄物整體堆置的問題不要說他好像好像號稱綠能事實上真的做下來並沒有達到這個很高綠能的標準啊\n其實任何的能源都有它的問題這次是凸顯了光電碼的問題那我們會從這次的裡面會再從這個機制是不是能夠更快來去化來解決這個我們的確要討論不過這次是因為這個量突然之間冒出了14萬噸14萬片所以這個是我們要特別再來檢討的\n所以我說這部分也剛好凸顯這問題所以希望環境部跟經濟部針對還有廠商這些機制應該要訂定一個完善的配套OK好謝謝韋我們會再來檢討好謝謝部長謝謝謝謝圖惠謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.975 --> 00:12.876\n好謝謝主席那請問彭部長\n\n00:18.447 --> 00:36.276\n好彭副長那個太陽光電也是我們能源轉型的重要工具那可是我們也要知道綠能其實它也不是百分之百的環保尤其這太陽能板據我們了解它從製造到設置還有最後它的退役\n\n00:36.829 --> 01:00.018\n其實它每一個階段都有淺藏的環境的風險我們看一下我們這個影片這個它在製造階段的時候有高耗能也產生溫室氣體還有涉及我們重金屬跟化學的製程那它設置的過程當然也涉及我們農地埤塘以及海岸還有生態漆地甚至我們也會\n\n01:01.398 --> 01:23.765\n有可能破壞碳會的功能那在運轉的階段影響土地跟水文系統那最後退場的時候如果沒有良好的廢棄物管理或者回收計畫那這個模組就是我們新世代的有害廢棄物這個部長您應該同意吧我是同意但是所有的能源\n\n01:25.426 --> 01:47.139\n除非我們不要能源所有的能源也都有類似一模一樣可以分門別類的一個問題所以我們最後我們是環境部是關注最後一個廢棄物管理跟回收計畫就是我們的責任對所以我們針對這個畢竟因為剛剛有講那這個廢棄物你們一直說它是無毒嘛對不對那可是無毒來講重點\n\n01:48.800 --> 02:03.100\n無毒的垃圾也是垃圾而且它裡面也是含有一些重金屬那如果沒有妥善的拆解處理它長期的堆置一定也會影響我們土壤跟地下水的問題吧是一定會對\n\n02:05.011 --> 02:30.985\n那所以我們針對這個廢棄太陽能模組他也是屬於我們廢清法的一部分那針對這部分我們也要有合格清除處理的廠商才能夠回收那我剛有聽部長的報告你說目前有幾家四家後續也有一些人想要投入的那目前我們的量能大概一個月大概4000多噸處理4000多噸\n\n02:34.332 --> 02:56.554\n那根據我們循環署預估我們在2035年的時候大概會產生5萬噸的太陽能模板那如果以我們目前的量能大概算起來大概只能處理差不多10%我們是那個是一個月我們如果一年的話大概就要將近5萬噸啦所以目前的量是應該是夠啦\n\n02:57.955 --> 03:22.467\n但是因為它是一個累積型的所以我們目前也在我們也希望因為我們有去特別了解這個業者他大概生態是什麼然後我們也希望他可以做得更好那我們知道業者大概92%都可以回收啦所以基本上我們希望他的比例可以拉高然後那個產業可以活得更健全一點所以現在重點問題就是我們現在即使能夠處理現在的量能\n\n03:23.127 --> 03:40.886\n大概就已經有可能就沒有辦法負荷那像這次風災整個回收量是暴增啊那我們這樣子暴增那我們針對這一部分我們也沒有辦法短期去處理那這環境污染的部分是由環境部跟地方政府在負擔嗎\n\n03:41.887 --> 04:08.616\n對包委員這個有兩個部分一個是說它這個壞掉的要趕快能夠堆置在一個地方例如說在這個皮糖能夠清除掉然後趕快跟這個回收的業者處理的業者能夠簽約能夠運到回收的業者做全循環的處理所以有兩個階段那第一個階段呢我所知道是說他們正在處理這個事情因為他們必須因為這個都是資產所以他們必須跟保險公司能夠來確認能夠得到理賠\n\n04:11.157 --> 04:39.996\n那他另外一個人要跟那個簽約那這個簽約我所知道都在進行當中那簽完約之後大概幾天之內就可以送到那個回收業者那他就可以去做去化的一個工作那去化的工作呢因為我們現在量能我們過去的量能沒有那麼大所以等於是說我們現在他們預估說是24小時一直不斷的加班希望一個半月可以去化掉等於是說他把這個運到這個回收業者處理業者的話大概花一個半月才可以處理掉\n\n04:40.196 --> 04:55.331\n所以我們剛剛講的意思是說我們現在其實處理量能就不夠所以我們這對於這個暴增的所以部長意思說就是請業者用加班的方式他們表示說他們也願意因為這個是國難所以他們也願意很積極的配合來處理\n\n04:56.252 --> 05:16.452\n因為我們擔心這一部分這個廢棄物堆置久了畢竟對我們整個環境生態一定有重大的影響那我們所以環境部就是限期大概一個半月內完成還是只能一個半月就是說我們大型的像這個大型的大概是兩個禮拜希望兩個禮拜一定要給我清除完整不然我們就要廢清法開罰\n\n05:17.353 --> 05:44.972\n然後如果小型的比較小量的一個禮拜我們其實我們的這個跟地方環保局都有協調說希望你們盡快可以去處理完所以所有訂定時間如果沒有辦法處理會有罰則嗎會有罰則例如說6萬到300萬好那希望這個部分我們環境部來盡速處理以免造成我們環境生態的影響那我們再請一下我們能源署的理事長\n\n05:54.722 --> 06:11.078\n委員好那個署長我請問一下還有部長那我們這一次這個屏東福台市的光電暗產暗產它這個總共的費用總共經費是多少錢\n\n06:13.002 --> 06:31.844\n我們是補助1億多嘛是不是屏東是不是對屏東的案場它總共經費是3億那政府補助1.3億總共3億政府補助1.3億全部是3億全部是3億是那可是好像說這個還沒有商轉嘛\n\n06:32.644 --> 06:57.556\n沒有他是一個實驗計畫那他必須要在他實驗完成前他到期日是115年的6月30那他必須要完成他整個試驗計畫那中間他會分階段的去做試驗那如果試驗失敗那這次看起來他的試驗是沒有成功那他還要再繼續去改善然後做試驗那最終的期限是到明年的6月30\n\n06:58.516 --> 07:21.845\n他必須要完成他原來計畫書裡面受補助的項目如果沒有完成的話我們會扣回他的補助款所以我們現在意思是說因為這個風災他已經變成海廢垃圾那重點所以萬一他這個實驗沒有成功的話呢我們就會扣回他的補助款扣回他的補助款所以我們現在擔心說你看這個\n\n07:22.825 --> 07:48.974\n事情爆發之後這個塑膠浮具堆滿沙灘而且說這個模具也在海岸邊那這個用人民的納稅人錢來做這個實驗然後災後我們感覺說這個整個好像責任不明監管也缺失環境損害的部分好像也沒有明確到底是環境部還是經濟部的責任還是廠商的責任好像沒有很明確\n\n07:51.976 --> 08:13.144\n這個責任是明確的這是廠商他要依他的責任去清理那如果他沒有完成清理的話那在政府機關就會去開罰去處罰他那所以清理的責任是他那目前他也清理完畢但是有少部分因為卡在消波塊他要拿起來比較困難那非常少數那目前基本上他已經清理完畢了\n\n08:13.604 --> 08:31.911\n那這清理的費用是廠商全額支付是是那我們補助的部分有沒有包含這個裡面的清理費用還是只有實驗當然不包含只有實驗的費用只有他做實驗的費用那我們目前光電設施針對抗風的能力有統一的標準嗎\n\n08:33.111 --> 08:54.287\n目前來講光電設施它是比照一般建築物的標準去設定它的這個抗風的能力也就是說它抗風的能力要跟我們建管法規定建築的那個能力強度是一樣的而且它要經過技師的簽證才能夠來設置所以它都有經過我們結構的安全審查\n\n08:55.027 --> 09:13.377\n有他當時都要經過這樣的一個審查然後縣政府同意之後才能放在那個海面上所以那時候好像講說應該可以到16到18級他這一個案的設計我可能要確認一下我的印象中好像是14級風然後他是浪高7米以上\n\n09:14.977 --> 09:40.016\n因為那時候好像我們看報導好像說預計應該到16到18級風可是這次根本就沒打到就摧毀掉了沒有因為它目前是分階段在試驗那它會逐步逐步的試驗它現在是福台在那邊那未來它可能會進一步除了福台還有太陽能板當然要看它能不能試驗到那個階段不過目前看起來它的試驗是沒有成功\n\n09:41.044 --> 10:06.911\n所以我們以後政府的補助應該是不是要把這個風險控管也要綁在一起不然以後後續一些問題全部都是由廠商來處理萬一廠商沒辦法處理呢不會因為我們在他核准的時候他就要繳我們補助是補助他1.35億他要繳同額的旅月保證金1.35億在政府這邊那所以我們到時候是完全扣得到錢的\n\n10:08.155 --> 10:31.747\n所以萬一他沒辦法做那還是有鋁鋁保證金在那邊可以做對銅鵝的鋁鋁保證金所以我們經過這一次的事件我覺得環境部應該針對這個應該要建立明確的退場跟污染處理的機制是不是應該要有明確的退場跟環境污染處理的機制讓地方政府來配合\n\n10:32.507 --> 10:54.876\n基本上光電的回收機制是很清楚的但是這個是天災啦那目前其實整個太陽能板整個淘汰換的處理機制是明確的那我們未來的廢新法修正之後我們環境部應該會承擔更多的責任啦所以我們會參酌委員的意見所以未來我們當然是希望能夠更完整的方式去走那不過這次是天災這突然間的量\n\n10:55.836 --> 11:15.688\n那因為以前沒有從嘉義登陸的颱風而且那麼的大所以這次是一個例外但是我們會再從這次來裡面來說的話重新再來檢討一次對我們建議說這個既然是綠能我們應該盡量要做到真正的環保應該很多部分我們跨部會應該要來配合不然這個\n\n11:16.508 --> 11:37.999\n你號稱綠能可是我覺得說你像一些他的太陽光電這些模組其實對我們很多民眾來講也是一個隱憂啊你這將來的處理的問題還有這個廢棄物整體堆置的問題不要說他好像好像號稱綠能事實上真的做下來並沒有達到這個很高綠能的標準啊\n\n11:40.045 --> 11:45.668\n其實任何的能源都有它的問題這次是凸顯了光電碼的問題那我們會從這次的裡面會再從這個機制是不是能夠更快來去化來解決這個我們的確要討論不過這次是因為這個量突然之間冒出了14萬噸14萬片所以這個是我們要特別再來檢討的\n\n12:00.154 --> 12:10.619\n所以我說這部分也剛好凸顯這問題所以希望環境部跟經濟部針對還有廠商這些機制應該要訂定一個完善的配套OK好謝謝韋我們會再來檢討好謝謝部長謝謝謝謝圖惠謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.975,"end":12.876,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那請問彭部長"},{"start":18.447,"end":36.276,"text":"好 彭副長那個太陽光電也是我們能源轉型的重要工具那可是我們也要知道綠能其實它也不是百分之百的環保尤其這太陽能板據我們了解它從製造到設置還有最後它的退役"},{"start":36.829,"end":60.018,"text":"其實它每一個階段都有淺藏的環境的風險我們看一下我們這個影片這個它在製造階段的時候有高耗能也產生溫室氣體還有涉及我們重金屬跟化學的製程那它設置的過程當然也涉及我們農地 埤塘以及海岸還有生態漆地甚至我們也會"},{"start":61.398,"end":83.765,"text":"有可能破壞碳會的功能那在運轉的階段影響土地跟水文系統那最後退場的時候如果沒有良好的廢棄物管理或者回收計畫那這個模組就是我們新世代的有害廢棄物這個部長您應該同意吧我是同意但是所有的能源"},{"start":85.426,"end":107.139,"text":"除非我們不要能源所有的能源也都有類似一模一樣可以分門別類的一個問題所以我們最後我們是環境部是關注最後一個廢棄物管理跟回收計畫就是我們的責任對所以我們針對這個畢竟因為剛剛有講那這個廢棄物你們一直說它是無毒嘛對不對那可是無毒來講重點"},{"start":108.8,"end":123.1,"text":"無毒的垃圾也是垃圾而且它裡面也是含有一些重金屬那如果沒有妥善的拆解處理它長期的堆置一定也會影響我們土壤跟地下水的問題吧是 一定會 對"},{"start":125.011,"end":150.985,"text":"那所以我們針對這個廢棄太陽能模組他也是屬於我們廢清法的一部分那針對這部分我們也要有合格清除處理的廠商才能夠回收那我剛有聽部長的報告你說目前有幾家四家後續也有一些人想要投入的那目前我們的量能大概一個月大概4000多噸處理4000多噸"},{"start":154.332,"end":176.554,"text":"那根據我們循環署預估我們在2035年的時候大概會產生5萬噸的太陽能模板那如果以我們目前的量能大概算起來大概只能處理差不多10%我們是那個是一個月我們如果一年的話大概就要將近5萬噸啦所以目前的量是應該是夠啦"},{"start":177.955,"end":202.467,"text":"但是因為它是一個累積型的所以我們目前也在我們也希望因為我們有去特別了解這個業者他大概生態是什麼然後我們也希望他可以做得更好那我們知道業者大概92%都可以回收啦所以基本上我們希望他的比例可以拉高然後那個產業可以活得更健全一點所以現在重點問題就是我們現在即使能夠處理現在的量能"},{"start":203.127,"end":220.886,"text":"大概就已經有可能就沒有辦法負荷那像這次風災整個回收量是暴增啊那我們這樣子暴增那我們針對這一部分我們也沒有辦法短期去處理那這環境污染的部分是由環境部跟地方政府在負擔嗎"},{"start":221.887,"end":248.616,"text":"對 包委員這個有兩個部分一個是說它這個壞掉的要趕快能夠堆置在一個地方例如說在這個皮糖能夠清除掉然後趕快跟這個回收的業者處理的業者能夠簽約能夠運到回收的業者做全循環的處理所以有兩個階段那第一個階段呢我所知道是說他們正在處理這個事情因為他們必須因為這個都是資產所以他們必須跟保險公司能夠來確認能夠得到理賠"},{"start":251.157,"end":279.996,"text":"那他另外一個人要跟那個簽約那這個簽約我所知道都在進行當中那簽完約之後大概幾天之內就可以送到那個回收業者那他就可以去做去化的一個工作那去化的工作呢因為我們現在量能我們過去的量能沒有那麼大所以等於是說我們現在他們預估說是24小時一直不斷的加班希望一個半月可以去化掉等於是說他把這個運到這個回收業者處理業者的話大概花一個半月才可以處理掉"},{"start":280.196,"end":295.331,"text":"所以我們剛剛講的意思是說我們現在其實處理量能就不夠所以我們這對於這個暴增的所以部長意思說就是請業者用加班的方式他們表示說他們也願意因為這個是國難所以他們也願意很積極的配合來處理"},{"start":296.252,"end":316.452,"text":"因為我們擔心這一部分這個廢棄物堆置久了畢竟對我們整個環境生態一定有重大的影響那我們所以環境部就是限期大概一個半月內完成還是只能一個半月就是說我們大型的像這個大型的大概是兩個禮拜希望兩個禮拜一定要給我清除完整不然我們就要廢清法開罰"},{"start":317.353,"end":344.972,"text":"然後如果小型的比較小量的一個禮拜我們其實我們的這個跟地方環保局都有協調說希望你們盡快可以去處理完所以所有訂定時間如果沒有辦法處理會有罰則嗎會有罰則例如說6萬到300萬好那希望這個部分我們環境部來盡速處理以免造成我們環境生態的影響那我們再請一下我們能源署的理事長"},{"start":354.722,"end":371.078,"text":"委員好那個署長我請問一下還有部長那我們這一次這個屏東福台市的光電暗產暗產它這個總共的費用總共經費是多少錢"},{"start":373.002,"end":391.844,"text":"我們是補助1億多嘛是不是屏東是不是對屏東的案場它總共經費是3億那政府補助1.3億總共3億政府補助1.3億全部是3億全部是3億是那可是好像說這個還沒有商轉嘛"},{"start":392.644,"end":417.556,"text":"沒有 他是一個實驗計畫那他必須要在他實驗完成前他到期日是115年的6月30那他必須要完成他整個試驗計畫那中間他會分階段的去做試驗那如果試驗失敗那這次看起來他的試驗是沒有成功那他還要再繼續去改善然後做試驗那最終的期限是到明年的6月30"},{"start":418.516,"end":441.845,"text":"他必須要完成他原來計畫書裡面受補助的項目如果沒有完成的話我們會扣回他的補助款所以我們現在意思是說因為這個風災他已經變成海廢垃圾那重點所以萬一他這個實驗沒有成功的話呢我們就會扣回他的補助款扣回他的補助款所以我們現在擔心說你看這個"},{"start":442.825,"end":468.974,"text":"事情爆發之後這個塑膠浮具堆滿沙灘而且說這個模具也在海岸邊那這個用人民的納稅人錢來做這個實驗然後災後我們感覺說這個整個好像責任不明監管也缺失環境損害的部分好像也沒有明確到底是環境部還是經濟部的責任還是廠商的責任好像沒有很明確"},{"start":471.976,"end":493.144,"text":"這個責任是明確的這是廠商他要依他的責任去清理那如果他沒有完成清理的話那在政府機關就會去開罰去處罰他那所以清理的責任是他那目前他也清理完畢但是有少部分因為卡在消波塊他要拿起來比較困難那非常少數那目前基本上他已經清理完畢了"},{"start":493.604,"end":511.911,"text":"那這清理的費用是廠商全額支付是是那我們補助的部分有沒有包含這個裡面的清理費用還是只有實驗當然不包含只有實驗的費用只有他做實驗的費用那我們目前光電設施針對抗風的能力有統一的標準嗎"},{"start":513.111,"end":534.287,"text":"目前來講光電設施它是比照一般建築物的標準去設定它的這個抗風的能力也就是說它抗風的能力要跟我們建管法規定建築的那個能力強度是一樣的而且它要經過技師的簽證才能夠來設置所以它都有經過我們結構的安全審查"},{"start":535.027,"end":553.377,"text":"有 他當時都要經過這樣的一個審查然後縣政府同意之後才能放在那個海面上所以那時候好像講說應該可以到16到18級他這一個案的設計我可能要確認一下我的印象中好像是14級風然後他是浪高7米以上"},{"start":554.977,"end":580.016,"text":"因為那時候好像我們看報導好像說預計應該到16到18級風可是這次根本就沒打到就摧毀掉了沒有 因為它目前是分階段在試驗那它會逐步逐步的試驗它現在是福台在那邊那未來它可能會進一步除了福台還有太陽能板當然要看它能不能試驗到那個階段不過目前看起來它的試驗是沒有成功"},{"start":581.044,"end":606.911,"text":"所以我們以後政府的補助應該是不是要把這個風險控管也要綁在一起不然以後後續一些問題全部都是由廠商來處理萬一廠商沒辦法處理呢不會 因為我們在他核准的時候他就要繳我們補助是補助他1.35億他要繳同額的旅月保證金1.35億在政府這邊那所以我們到時候是完全扣得到錢的"},{"start":608.155,"end":631.747,"text":"所以萬一他沒辦法做 那還是有鋁鋁保證金在那邊可以做對 銅鵝的鋁鋁保證金所以我們經過這一次的事件我覺得環境部應該針對這個應該要建立明確的退場跟污染處理的機制是不是應該要有明確的退場跟環境污染處理的機制讓地方政府來配合"},{"start":632.507,"end":654.876,"text":"基本上光電的回收機制是很清楚的但是這個是天災啦那目前其實整個太陽能板整個淘汰換的處理機制是明確的那我們未來的廢新法修正之後我們環境部應該會承擔更多的責任啦所以我們會參酌委員的意見所以未來我們當然是希望能夠更完整的方式去走那不過這次是天災這突然間的量"},{"start":655.836,"end":675.688,"text":"那因為以前沒有從嘉義登陸的颱風而且那麼的大所以這次是一個例外但是我們會再從這次來裡面來說的話重新再來檢討一次對我們建議說這個既然是綠能我們應該盡量要做到真正的環保應該很多部分我們跨部會應該要來配合不然這個"},{"start":676.508,"end":697.999,"text":"你號稱綠能可是我覺得說你像一些他的太陽光電這些模組其實對我們很多民眾來講也是一個隱憂啊你這將來的處理的問題還有這個廢棄物整體堆置的問題不要說他好像好像號稱綠能事實上真的做下來並沒有達到這個很高綠能的標準啊"},{"start":700.045,"end":705.668,"text":"其實任何的能源都有它的問題這次是凸顯了光電碼的問題那我們會從這次的裡面會再從這個機制是不是能夠更快來去化來解決這個我們的確要討論不過這次是因為這個量突然之間冒出了14萬噸14萬片所以這個是我們要特別再來檢討的"},{"start":720.154,"end":730.619,"text":"所以我說這部分也剛好凸顯這問題所以希望環境部跟經濟部針對還有廠商這些機制應該要訂定一個完善的配套OK好謝謝韋我們會再來檢討好謝謝部長謝謝謝謝圖惠謝謝部長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":741,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（10時49分）謝謝主席，請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：涂委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：好。彭部長，太陽光電也是我們能源轉型的重要工具，可是我們也要知道，綠能其實也不是百分之百的環保，尤其是太陽能板，據我們了解，它從製造到設置，還有最後的退役，其實每一個階段都有潛藏的環境風險。我們看一下這張圖表，它在製造階段時，是高耗能，也產生溫室氣體，還涉及重金屬跟化學製程。在設置過程，當然也涉及農地、埤塘、海岸與生態棲地，甚至也有可能破壞碳匯功能。在運轉的階段，會影響土地跟水文系統。最後退場的時候，如果沒有良好的廢棄物管理與回收計畫，那這些模組就是新世代的有害廢棄物。這個部長應該同意吧？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我是同意，但是所有的能源，除非我們不要能源，所有的能源也都有類似一模一樣可以分門別類的問題，所以我們環境部是關注最後一個廢棄物管理跟回收計畫，就是我們的責任。"],["涂委員權吉：對，因為你們一直說這個廢棄物是無毒的，對不對？可是重點是無毒的垃圾也是垃圾，而且它裡面也是含有一些重金屬，如果沒有妥善的拆解處理，長期的堆置，一定也會影響我們的土壤跟地下水吧？"],["彭部長啓明：是，一定會。"],["涂委員權吉：所以廢棄太陽能模組也是屬於廢清法的一部分，針對這一部分，也要有合格清除、處理的廠商才能夠回收。我剛剛有聽部長的報告，你說目前有幾家，4家是嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：4家。後續也有一些人想要投入，目前我們的量能大概是一個月處理四千多噸。"],["涂委員權吉：根據循環署預估，在2035年時大概會產生5萬噸的太陽能模板，如果以目前的量能算起來，大概只能處理差不多10%，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：那個是一個月，如果一年的話，大概就差不多將近5萬噸，所以目前的量應該是夠，但是因為它是累積型的，所以我們也希望……我們有特別去了解這個業者的生態是什麼，然後我們也希望它可以做得更好，我們知道業者大概有92%都可以回收，所以基本上我們希望它的比率可以拉高，讓產業可以活得更健全一點。"],["涂委員權吉：現在的重點是，我們能夠處理現在的量能，但有可能已經沒有辦法再多負荷，像這次的風災整個回收量暴增，針對這一部分，也沒有辦法短期去處理，那有關環境污染部分，是由環境部跟地方政府負擔嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個有兩個部分，一個是壞掉的要趕快堆置在一個地方，例如在埤塘的能夠清除掉，趕快跟回收的業者、處理的業者簽約，然後運到回收業者那邊做全循環的處理，所以有兩個階段，第一個階段我所知道的是，他們正在處理這個事情，因為這個都是資產，所以他們必須跟保險公司確認能夠得到理賠。另外一個是要跟業者簽約，那這個簽約我所知道的是都在進行當中，簽完約之後，大概幾天之內就可以送到回收業者那邊，他們就可以進行去化的工作。至於去化工作部分，因為我們過去的量能沒有那麼大，所以他們預估是24小時一直不斷地加班，希望一個半月可以去化掉。等於是說他把這些光電版運到回收業者、處理業者那邊的話，大概要花一個半月才可以處理掉。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我剛剛講的意思是，我們現在其實處理量能就不夠，所以對於這些暴增的部分，部長的意思就是請業者用加班的方式處理？"],["彭部長啓明：對，他們表示他們也願意，因為這個是國難，所以他們也願意積極地配合來處理。"],["涂委員權吉：我們擔心這些廢棄物堆置久了，畢竟對整個環境生態一定有重大的影響，所以環境部就是限他一個半月內完成，還是只能一個半月……"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，像這個大型的大概是兩個禮拜，希望兩個禮拜一定要清除完成，不然我們就會依廢清法開罰。然後如果是小型的、比較小量的，是一個禮拜，其實我們跟地方環保局都有協調，希望儘快可以處理完。"],["涂委員權吉：有訂定時間，如果沒有辦法處理會有罰責嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：會有罰責，例如說會罰6萬到300萬。"],["涂委員權吉：好，希望這個部分環境部能儘速處理，以免造成環境生態的影響。","我再請一下能源署的李署長。"],["李代理署長君禮：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：署長還有部長，我請問一下，這一次屏東浮台式的光電案場總共的經費是多少錢？我們是補助一億多，是不是？"],["李代理署長君禮：屏東是不是？"],["涂委員權吉：對。"],["李代理署長君禮：屏東案場總共的經費是3億，政府補助1.3億。"],["涂委員權吉：總共3億，政府補助1.3億？"],["李代理署長君禮：全部是3億。"],["涂委員權吉：全部是3億？"],["李代理署長君禮：是。"],["涂委員權吉：可是好像說這個還沒有商轉，對不對？"],["李代理署長君禮：沒有，它是一個實驗計畫，到期日是115年6月30日，必須要在實驗完成前完成整個試驗計畫，中間會分階段去做試驗，如果試驗失敗……這次看起來試驗是沒有成功的，所以就還要再繼續去改善，然後做試驗，最終的期限是到明年的6月30日就必須要完成原來計畫書裡面受補助的項目，如果沒有完成的話，我們會扣回它的補助款。"],["涂委員權吉：所以現在意思是說，因為這個風災它已經變成海廢垃圾，那重點……"],["李代理署長君禮：他要負責清理。"],["涂委員權吉：萬一這個實驗沒有成功的話呢？"],["李代理署長君禮：我們就會扣回它的補助款。"],["涂委員權吉：扣回它的補助款？"],["李代理署長君禮：是。"],["涂委員權吉：我們現在擔心的是，你看這個事情爆發之後，這個塑膠浮具堆滿沙灘，而且這個模具也在海岸邊，用人民的納稅錢來做這個實驗，災後我們感覺這整個好像責任不明、監管也有缺失，環境損害的部分好像也沒有明確，到底是環境部的責任、經濟部的責任，還是廠商的責任，好像沒有很明確？"],["李代理署長君禮：責任是明確的，就是廠商要依其責任去清理，如果沒有完成清理的話，政府機關就會去開罰、處罰，所以清理的責任在他，目前他也清理完畢了，但是有少部分因為卡在消波塊，要拿起來比較困難，這是非常少數，目前基本上是已經清理完畢了。"],["涂委員權吉：清理的費用是廠商全額自付？"],["李代理署長君禮：是自己要出的。"],["涂委員權吉：我們補助的部分有沒有包含清理費用，還是……"],["李代理署長君禮：當然不包含。"],["涂委員權吉：只有實驗的費用？"],["李代理署長君禮：對，只有做實驗的費用。"],["涂委員權吉：目前針對光電設施的抗風能力有統一的標準嗎？"],["李代理署長君禮：目前來講，光電設施是比照一般建築物的標準在設定抗風的能力，也就是說，其抗風能力要跟建管法規定建築的那個能力強度是一樣的，而且都要經過技師的簽證才能夠設置。"],["涂委員權吉：所以都有經過結構的安全審查？"],["李代理署長君禮：有，當時都要經過這樣的審查，然後縣政府同意之後才能放在海面上。"],["涂委員權吉：那時候好像講說應該是可以到16到18級，是不是？"],["李代理署長君禮：這一個案的設計，我可能要確認一下，在我印象中好像是14級風，浪高7米以上。"],["涂委員權吉：那時候我們看報導，好像說預計應該是到16到18級風，可是這次根本就沒達到就被摧毀掉了。"],["李代理署長君禮：因為目前是分階段在試驗，廠商會逐步、逐步地試驗，現在是浮台在那邊，未來可能會進一步，除了浮台，還有太陽能板，當然也要看能不能試驗到那個階段，不過目前看起來，試驗是沒有成功的。"],["涂委員權吉：以後政府的補助是不是應該也要把風險控管綁在一起，不然後續有一些問題就全部都是由廠商來處理，萬一廠商沒辦法處理呢？"],["李代理署長君禮：不會，因為我們在核准的時候，是補助1.35億，但他要繳同額的履約保證金1.35億到政府這邊，所以我們到時候是完全扣得到錢的。"],["涂委員權吉：所以萬一廠商沒辦法做，還是有履約保證金在那邊可以處理？"],["李代理署長君禮：對，有同額的履約保證金。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我們經過這次的事件，我覺得環境部針對這個應該要建立明確的退場跟污染處理機制，是不是應該要有明確的退場跟環境污染處理機制，讓地方政府來配合？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，光電的回收機制是很清楚的，但這個是天災啦！目前整個太陽能板汰換的處理機制是明確的，未來廢清法修正之後，環境部應該會承擔更多的責任，所以我們會參酌委員的意見，未來我們當然是希望能夠以更完整的方式去走。不過這次是天災，突然增加的那個量，因為以前沒有從嘉義登陸的颱風，而且那麼大，所以這次是一個例外，但是我們會再從這次的經驗，重新再來檢討一次。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！我們建議既然是綠能，應該儘量要做到真正的環保，很多部分我們跨部會應該要來配合，不然你號稱綠能，可是我覺得像太陽光電的這些模組，對很多民眾來講，也是一個隱憂啊！像將來處理的問題，還有廢棄物整體堆置的問題，不要說它好像號稱綠能，事實上真的做下來，並沒有達到很高綠能的標準。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，任何的能源都有它的問題，這次是凸顯了光電板的問題，我們會從這次的經驗裡面，會再從這個機制來看，是不是能夠更快來去化、來解決，我們的確要討論。不過這次是因為這個量突然之間冒出14萬片，這是我們要特別再來檢討的。"],["涂委員權吉：這一部分也剛好凸顯這個問題，所以希望環境部跟經濟部針對廠商及這些機制應該要訂定一個完善的配套。"],["彭部長啓明：OK，好。謝謝委員，我們會再來檢討。"],["涂委員權吉：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝涂委員，謝謝部長、次長。休息5分鐘。","休息（11時1分）","繼續開會（11時9分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","請陳菁徽委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":238,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-20","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","涂權吉","陳菁徽","黃秀芳","林淑芬","王正旭","黃國昌","楊曜","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳冠廷","陳瑩","盧縣一","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2025-07-16"],"gazette_id":"1146701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部部長、海洋委員會、農業部、內政部、國防部、金融監督管理委員會針\n對「光電設施對環境影響情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146701_00003"}}}