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第二點有關於屏東這個案場我們的資料第一個所有的浮到這個海岸邊的這個部分要清理那我們當然剛剛也有聽到海委會到海下裡面去看有沒有光電板在此跟委員跟大家說明這一次丹納斯颱風之前\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 263.992, \"end\": 264.112, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 264.112, \"end\": 264.632, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 264.632, \"end\": 264.772, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 264.772, \"end\": 265.333, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 265.333, \"end\": 265.673, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 265.673, \"end\": 265.953, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"屏\", \"start\": 265.953, \"end\": 266.733, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"東\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 266.733, \"end\": 267.654, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 267.654, \"end\": 267.814, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 267.814, \"end\": 268.114, 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\"此\", \"start\": 280.219, \"end\": 280.619, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 280.619, \"end\": 280.819, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 280.819, \"end\": 281.199, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 281.199, \"end\": 281.539, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 281.539, \"end\": 281.699, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 281.699, \"end\": 282.199, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 282.199, \"end\": 283.3, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 283.3, \"end\": 283.58, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 283.58, \"end\": 283.84, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"丹\", \"start\": 283.84, \"end\": 284.16, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"納\"}, {\"word\": \"斯\", \"start\": 284.16, \"end\": 284.72, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"颱\"}, {\"word\": \"風\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 284.72, \"end\": 284.92, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 284.92, \"end\": 284.94, \"score\": 0.934}]}, {\"start\": 286.981, \"end\": 314.869, \"text\": \"這個光電板都已經移除了我們現在是看到湖台的部分那這湖台的部分的話當然即刻的清理除此之外的話委員所關心的資料的部分因為這裡面不但有涉及到公共利益也涉及到個人資料的保護所以我們需要依照法規的這個執行來處理那我們已經我們只有大概是10天之內我們要求廠商給我們一個回覆\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"光\", \"start\": 286.981, \"end\": 287.281, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"板\", \"start\": 287.281, \"end\": 287.461, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 287.461, \"end\": 287.801, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 287.801, \"end\": 287.881, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"移\", \"start\": 287.881, \"end\": 288.041, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"除\", \"start\": 288.041, \"end\": 288.201, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 288.201, \"end\": 288.522, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 288.522, \"end\": 288.722, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 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\"那第一個問題你已經答覆了就是10天之內你可以獲得廠商的回覆決定要不要給我們計劃書所以也有可能我們沒有計劃書 對嗎它涉及到所謂的它個資的部分公司的營運的部分所以10天我們就知道有或沒有那第二個問題你剛剛提到的因為你們今天的報告都有寫你們會盡速的把這些浮台全部打撈回來然後這個消波塊也會處理乾淨請問這個期限是多久因為朝委也很想知道\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 315.569, \"end\": 316.029, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 316.029, \"end\": 316.129, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 316.129, \"end\": 317.549, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 317.549, \"end\": 317.669, \"score\": 0.742}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 317.669, \"end\": 317.909, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 317.909, \"end\": 318.17, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"覆\", \"start\": 318.17, \"end\": 318.43, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 318.43, \"end\": 318.45, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 318.45, \"end\": 318.65, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 318.65, \"end\": 318.81, \"score\": 0.61}, 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{\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 1090.498, \"end\": 1090.558, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 1090.558, \"end\": 1090.958, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"納\"}, {\"word\": \"入\", \"start\": 1090.958, \"end\": 1091.078, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 1091.078, \"end\": 1091.218, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"收\", \"start\": 1091.218, \"end\": 1091.238, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 1091.238, \"end\": 1091.258, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 1096.588, \"end\": 1103.722, \"text\": \"我們這個是在做一個預告 預告是八月預告預計八月預告所以你們會跟\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1096.588, \"end\": 1097.109, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1097.109, \"end\": 1097.791, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1097.791, \"end\": 1098.071, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 1098.071, \"end\": 1099.093, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1099.093, 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\"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1103.602, \"end\": 1103.702, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 1103.702, \"end\": 1103.722, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 1105.607, \"end\": 1129.264, \"text\": \"經濟部因為經濟部有一個特別條例的草案各位報告那我們在光電板要回收部分目前是透過他的那個等過費去收那但是其他有一部分是沒有去透過等過費去收我們就用這個廢清法來做一個處理來要求我就只問彭部長最後一個問題這也是這次從您的報告裡面看出來的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"濟\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1105.607, \"end\": 1106.068, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 1106.068, \"end\": 1106.468, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"濟\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1106.468, \"end\": 1106.608, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1106.608, \"end\": 1106.768, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1106.768, \"end\": 1106.968, \"score\": 0.675}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"特\", \"start\": 1106.968, \"end\": 1107.108, \"score\": 0.784}, {\"word\": \"別\", \"start\": 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1128.923, \"end\": 1129.244, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1129.244, \"end\": 1129.264, \"score\": 0.992}]}, {\"start\": 1129.904, \"end\": 1154.872, \"text\": \"您其實有預估一個未來光電板淘汰的壽命他們大概20到30年那廢棄物的話呢到121年年回收量1萬片128年10萬片那你那個時候是用天然災害的損壞率0.2到0.5%來估算的但今天的報告是寫說一次風災就0.4%你剛也講登陸的颱風你會想要調整這個數據嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 1129.904, \"end\": 1130.564, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 1130.564, \"end\": 1130.924, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1130.924, \"end\": 1131.364, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"估\", \"start\": 1131.364, \"end\": 1131.545, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1131.545, \"end\": 1131.745, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"未\", \"start\": 1131.745, \"end\": 1132.105, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"光\", \"start\": 1132.105, \"end\": 1132.425, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"板\", \"start\": 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00:00:45,836\n可是我們也要強調這麼多人問下來就是錯誤的能源政策造成我們現在的電力系統這樣子的脆弱我希望經濟部可以反省國部長今天沒有來可是國部長之前老員工提醒他錯誤的能源政策的時候\n\n3\n00:00:46,516 --> 00:01:09,982\n他在備詢的時候是說不爽就不要做啊可以離職啊他是這樣子講的那這次昭偉也很知道啊你的福台都已經飄到澎湖去了你的福台的殘骸都已經卡在消波塊了經濟部特別做圖卡說人民不要造謠喔不要造謠上面有光電板喔造謠的人我們要報警喔\n\n4\n00:01:11,202 --> 00:01:24,375\n這相比起來跟你今天說你要趕到南部去看基層的台電的同仁我覺得情何以堪你做出來的樣子跟你今天在這邊說你沒有辦法來答詢的這個\n\n5\n00:01:27,014 --> 00:01:47,742\n理由我覺得不堪一擊啦那這邊剛看了這麼多委員質詢的圖片我們發現台南是整排的電線桿倒塌屋頂掀飛的幾千戶我現在講的是人命剛剛一位很辛苦的台電人人OKA現在放葉克摩\n\n6\n00:01:48,402 --> 00:01:57,260\n但是我們因為一整個禮拜活在黑暗中有八十幾歲的阿嬤點蠟燭可是不幸往生因為\n\n7\n00:01:59,144 --> 00:02:25,203\n這個起火那另外一位里長是因為呼吸器斷電他們已經在黑暗中這樣子過這不是我們應該要有的經濟部應該要全面的檢討你們的能源政策然而我們在問這些問題的時候事發當時有縣長在北歐考察執政黨委員在大罷免大遶境媒體對於台南的訊息通通都不報\n\n8\n00:02:26,024 --> 00:02:43,497\n然後我們總統去勘栽說什麼說這不是國軍的慷慨說我們要有社會韌性說這個屋頂你要自己擺起來啊那民眾說沒水沒網路沒電手機沒有訊號要怎麼生活他說郭國文委員的手機有訊號啊\n\n9\n00:02:44,838 --> 00:02:50,402\n我們台灣人到底是多麼的悲哀才會用這樣子破爛的能源政策來賠命啊已經兩位老人家這是我剛剛聽到這麼多委員質詢最感慨的事情那我現在想先請次長\n\n10\n00:03:06,889 --> 00:03:25,667\n已經說了福台你好福台現在散落的到處都是你自己也沒辦法預估什麼時候才可以把所有的殘骸全部撈回來黃國昌委員陳昭芝委員都說這個就是人民的納稅錢所補助的計畫去做的\n\n11\n00:03:26,857 --> 00:03:33,225\n那你說你還要先問廠商才可以給我們這個計劃書你這個計劃書早就已經寫好了現在並不是讓你們在勘栽很忙碌的時間還要伸出什麼報告給我們這個計劃書早就有了我相信張委很想看吧\n\n12\n00:03:44,875 --> 00:03:57,086\n因為交委現在每天都到屏東的海岸去看你那些福台到底收完了沒他預測一個月都收不完那我們是不是還要再排一次專報或者是質詢請問我們想問我們這麼基本的計畫書這個結構性的錯誤中間是不是有什麼弊案然後人民納稅錢補助的這個計畫\n\n13\n00:04:08,936 --> 00:04:22,442\n請問你這個計畫書你覺得你可以在多久的期限之內問到廠商的許可然後可以給委員們謝謝委員首先代表台電的員工感謝委員對台電員工的關懷\n\n14\n00:04:23,992 --> 00:04:44,940\n這第一點第二點有關於屏東這個案場我們的資料第一個所有的浮到這個海岸邊的這個部分要清理那我們當然剛剛也有聽到海委會到海下裡面去看有沒有光電板在此跟委員跟大家說明這一次丹納斯颱風之前\n\n15\n00:04:46,981 --> 00:05:14,869\n這個光電板都已經移除了我們現在是看到湖台的部分那這湖台的部分的話當然即刻的清理除此之外的話委員所關心的資料的部分因為這裡面不但有涉及到公共利益也涉及到個人資料的保護所以我們需要依照法規的這個執行來處理那我們已經我們只有大概是10天之內我們要求廠商給我們一個回覆\n\n16\n00:05:15,569 --> 00:05:44,335\n那第一個問題你已經答覆了就是10天之內你可以獲得廠商的回覆決定要不要給我們計劃書所以也有可能我們沒有計劃書對嗎它涉及到所謂的它個資的部分公司的營運的部分所以10天我們就知道有或沒有那第二個問題你剛剛提到的因為你們今天的報告都有寫你們會盡速的把這些浮台全部打撈回來然後這個消波塊也會處理乾淨請問這個期限是多久因為朝委也很想知道\n\n17\n00:05:45,677 --> 00:06:13,679\n事實上我們在7月11號之前已經把大部分的都清理了但是因為隨著這個海浪風浪的這個影響他這些所謂的福台HDPE包括有一些的細部的設施可能還有漂到其他海岸的這個地方我們會請能源署教學廠商確實一一的逐一的詢點所以兩個問題都沒有答案沒有現在都已經清了差不多了\n\n18\n00:06:14,192 --> 00:06:23,594\n但多久以內請完你還不知道啦這個屏東縣政府已經有給他限期了會繼續採訪好次長您請回座接下來我們請環境部部長\n\n19\n00:06:28,491 --> 00:06:57,491\n好部長有一個年輕人會玩的叫做狼人殺就是找出到底是誰在說謊這個是風災之後經濟部說受損的光碟板一直在清潤無毒不會造成污染但同一天或是前後兩天您說光電模組含有金屬與化學物質若沒有妥善清除處理恐流入土壤和水體引發長期的污染疑慮\n\n20\n00:06:59,632 --> 00:07:23,470\n包委員這個我們有跟他那位記者表示不一樣的意見因為我們有一個新聞稿說得很清楚我們沒有這樣說是隔天的新聞稿他加了一些他自己的看法進去那當然啦任何的這個儀器或是電器都有金屬在裡面例如說我們的手機所以其實泡到水長久以來對環境都是不好的所以其實您覺得經濟部的這張圖卡\n\n21\n00:07:26,592 --> 00:07:48,840\n沒有寫得夠清楚對嗎左邊是左邊我說的是右邊你看到右邊那張圖因為你剛剛有講啊你說長期浸泡在水裡或是土壤裡還是會有其影響就是任何的東西反走過不一定有痕跡嘛所以它絕對不是無毒嘛對不對它不是無毒基本上它不是有害的廢棄物啦那至於有沒有毒是一個風險跟濃度的關係\n\n22\n00:07:51,365 --> 00:08:15,812\n所以它不是無毒目前我們量到現在沒有毒但是如果放了很久那個例如說紅或是銀如果放很久很久可能幾年那當然一定會慢慢的影響到水質了解沒關係等一下我們來討論再來你隔天又有另外一個說法說太陽能模組主要是鋁礦玻璃EVA模發電元件並未被列為有害廢棄物這個你剛剛也講了還提醒外界勿混淆視聽\n\n23\n00:08:21,154 --> 00:08:35,110\n這個我前面已經講得很清楚了已經有人因此而喪命可是經濟部在發圖卡叫大家不要造謠然後你叫大家不要混淆視聽委員是什麼喪命?因為太陽光電板喪命嗎?\n\n24\n00:08:35,871 --> 00:08:58,833\n不是不是不是我的意思是說我們現在當務之急是要去找這些光電板引起的污染還有這些光電板有沒有碎裂找不到序號的有沒有根本回收不回來的這才是我們的當務之急不是嗎是是好那這些大型的光電板當然現在還有很多網路上有非常多鄉民啊他們有看到\n\n25\n00:09:00,263 --> 00:09:20,132\n飛到車子裡的啦卡到土裡的啦掉到池塘水裡的還有在樹上他們還說可以行光合作用的這些光電板啊都已經碎裂的一塌糊塗到處都是那每一片有所謂的身分證跟序號嘛我們今天有看到經濟部說可能\n\n26\n00:09:21,712 --> 00:09:30,458\n這個損失是0.4%0.4%請問兩個部門有辦法詳列出這0.4%裡面最後找不到的碎裂的你們找得回來嗎因為我們只知道你是回推0.4%沒有了可是我們不曉得經過一次風災以後沒有辦法修復的或者是序號再也找不到的有多少比例這個數據我們要怎麼樣獲得\n\n27\n00:09:50,511 --> 00:10:10,868\n這一定可以獲得的啦因為我們都可以算的出來大概14.5萬片那當然每一片都有它的一個序號所以到時候就可以出來說到底誰被我回收回來因為等於是每一個面板上面都有貼了一個代碼有一個QRcode什麼是出產年月日哪裡製造的都全部都所以你會知道哪一些序號最終沒辦法找回來了\n\n28\n00:10:11,708 --> 00:10:38,806\n對一定可以的那這個數據我們大概多久才會現在就是說像嘉義嘉義可能就是說我們對大型的剛剛那個像新溫的滯洪池我們要他兩個禮拜前兩個禮拜內一定要清掉如果小的話就一個禮拜內然後他要去這個所謂去化廠去把它去化掉所以第一個是那邊第二個是那邊那另外那邊呢大概要花1.5個月但是現場我們希望兩個禮拜內要清除掉\n\n29\n00:10:39,568 --> 00:11:06,986\n好我們平均我就看了一下數據這個部長也很清楚每年我們平均的颱風大概5到7至8個3到4個登陸的好如果你們每一次都需要1.5個月統計我會覺得有一點點久不過這次我們希望可以在1.5個月後可以看到這些數據我們才知道這些光電板它的年限本來應該是20到30年所以它多少比例會因為天然的災害而提早被淘汰嗎\n\n30\n00:11:07,826 --> 00:11:24,988\n包委員因為這一次是第一次在嘉義登陸而且是涼到將近快要到16到17級的強震風基本上那個屋頂都被掀開來那那個在餘溫的光電板他用纜繩拉的那就容易斷裂其實屋頂的陸域型的是沒有什麼影響的\n\n31\n00:11:25,969 --> 00:11:45,142\n部長我們還是以防患於未然好嗎這個是您剛其實講得很清楚這個光電板你要回收哪些金屬部分它裡面的材質包括什麼那其實我就是要跟你討論剛剛我們討論的我們先舉裡面最大成分的焊接的鉛好了\n\n32\n00:11:46,349 --> 00:12:10,109\n簽列為國際第一級的高毒性重金屬台灣環保的法規限制含鉛的土壤需要清除喔所以它對人體健康的影響有神經毒性兒童智能發展障礙腎損害長期是還有可能致癌這個是裡面它焊接的主要成分再來它上下這個膜希望水不要滲透進去的浮化的塑料\n\n33\n00:12:11,210 --> 00:12:30,504\n這一些他如果已經掉在荒郊野外經過高溫焚燒產生的代藥芯吸入有高度的毒性也有可能會致癌所以你所以到底所以這就是為什麼我問你有毒還是沒有毒你跟經濟部一定有一個人是錯的不過我現在比較相信你\n\n34\n00:12:31,284 --> 00:12:52,300\n因為這些東西在環境中長期的曝露沒有人把它找回來一定有嘛很多啊現在網友到處他去爬山或去勘栽他就馬上發現這邊一塊光電管那邊一塊這些東西長期在環境中就是會對我們的土壤還有水質產生毒性那我覺得比起我們前幾個禮拜的質詢我們空屋討論這麼細討論到PM0.1\n\n35\n00:12:58,704 --> 00:13:23,632\n結果對現在這些天災產生的錯誤的能源政策製造出來的污染源是視而不見啦是為什麼包委員這個像你說的這個鉛喔我們剛剛今天報告我禮拜一派同仁去量那其實未檢出鉛未檢出等於是光電板到的這個滯洪池或餘溫去未檢出鉛目前的情況是這樣但是你剛剛也有講啊你說放很久的會\n\n36\n00:13:24,572 --> 00:13:47,077\n對但是這個就需要科學的這個實驗驗證啦那我們過去是沒有做過這樣的東西但是常理都知道例如說我把我的手機放在水裡面泡個五年那當然那個水我們都一定會有一點疑慮嘛對所以為什麼我們希望獲得那個數據因為你一定有一些序號是找不回來的而這些找不回來的序號就是在環境中繼續衍生出污染物啊不是嗎\n\n37\n00:13:47,877 --> 00:14:01,144\n對如果是這個是現在我們先把它清除完如果後續如果遺失很多的話那當然後續的監控我們都一定要做好昭緯如果真的遺失很多我們再來排一次專報好嗎好那接下來我想放一段影片\n\n38\n00:14:04,464 --> 00:14:33,163\n這個是部長您不在三片谷的國內的時候都是民進黨錯誤的能源政策所造成的本來這個山坡地是以種綠荷包鳳梨水果等等人民但是配合政府的綠能綠電政策把土地租給廠商來開發光電這不是什麼能源轉型這個叫做對土地的背叛對環境的掠奪我們就是因為之前那個50公頃沒有接受環評才會發生這樣子恐怖的事情這邊會列條因為屬於國有土地但經能源主管機關同意者不在環評的限制設置累積面積15公頃以上才需要做環評\n\n39\n00:14:33,763 --> 00:14:34,964\n這個我剛剛聽到你有答覆王玉敏委員了\n\n40\n00:14:52,190 --> 00:15:18,472\n除了15公頃以下還有國營事業的土地還有開發行為如果是附屬的設施只要主管機關認定就免評估剛剛很多委員又加上了一個水域對不對對那你們這個因為我這個已經是您在國外的時候您參加一個研討會的質詢當時次長說會研議會檢討會開會現在已經一個月過去了我也想知道你的進度在哪裡啊\n\n41\n00:15:21,631 --> 00:15:21,852\n我們請我們市長\n\n42\n00:15:24,042 --> 00:15:50,988\n報告人那個有關研議加研的部分其實我們內部已經有討論過那但是因為不修法的情況下我們可以要求能源署在針對他們免還認定免還平等因為我們那個是經能源主管機關同意者不在此限那他們必須要有他們相關的程序還有要會商農業部和環保單位這個我們有要求他們要\n\n43\n00:15:51,488 --> 00:16:16,773\n把它程序要明確化把它訂出來這個是沒有修法的加嚴的部分那如果有修法的部分其實我們跟同學有討論過可以有很多方向那但是初步我們有想說也許就雙主管機關因為原來只有能源主管機關會不會就是連林業主管機關也加進來必須兩者同意才可以免環評甚至是\n\n44\n00:16:18,086 --> 00:16:47,086\n有很多種情境啊最嚴情境就是這個部分只要有在那個林地的地方全部都要翻屏大家其實蠻擔心的因為下一個颱風又在靠近我們了這個禮拜都看到沿海農業區保育區全部都被這些光電板漂浮的亂七八糟好你說你要跟其他的主管機關我們也只是問進度我剛問進度你到底什麼時候會把它加嚴這也是一般人民想知道的多久以內你會把它加嚴嗎\n\n45\n00:16:48,902 --> 00:17:07,421\n我們上次有答覆您就是說基本上如果要涉及那個整體的因為我們今年1月16號才修訂完嘛那我們會並我們環評總體檢的部分一起如果要涉及要修法的部分我們並那個一起檢討一起來處理年底前\n\n46\n00:17:08,474 --> 00:17:26,352\n我們今年年底之前應該會到年底到或是明年初之前環兵總體檢會完成那個完成之後我們就會來啟動是不是要修法反正我們年底之前會看到你先加研嘛就是我們先總體檢完我們到底需要怎麼樣改\n\n47\n00:17:28,103 --> 00:17:28,363\n1%的光電板?呃\n\n48\n00:17:50,427 --> 00:18:11,258\n基本上我們是108年以後都有被我們列管啦108年以前那時候制度是沒有列管的我是去年的3月21在委員會提了臨時提案要求把太陽能光電板列入因回收的項目完備廢棄太陽能板的回收機制你現在那一年了你什麼時候可以把它納入回收機制\n\n49\n00:18:16,588 --> 00:18:23,722\n我們這個是在做一個預告預告是八月預告預計八月預告所以你們會跟\n\n50\n00:18:25,607 --> 00:18:49,264\n經濟部因為經濟部有一個特別條例的草案各位報告那我們在光電板要回收部分目前是透過他的那個等過費去收那但是其他有一部分是沒有去透過等過費去收我們就用這個廢清法來做一個處理來要求我就只問彭部長最後一個問題這也是這次從您的報告裡面看出來的\n\n51\n00:18:49,904 --> 00:19:14,872\n您其實有預估一個未來光電板淘汰的壽命他們大概20到30年那廢棄物的話呢到121年年回收量1萬片128年10萬片那你那個時候是用天然災害的損壞率0.2到0.5%來估算的但今天的報告是寫說一次風災就0.4%你剛也講登陸的颱風你會想要調整這個數據嗎\n\n52\n00:19:19,490 --> 00:19:41,615\n這個我們可以再討論啦不過報告委員這個是這次是一個特別的天災然後我們光電板在這個餘溫還有滯洪池上面從來沒有遇過這麼大的過啦所以我是認為我們也可以來檢討這件事情對我覺得部長你還是體會一下住在家裡的人的心情啦就是大家還是會希望這件事情不要再發生好嗎好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9\t1610\t因為剛剛有感而發聽到昭緯在為台電的員工覺得抱屈也聽了很多委員質詢的內容那本席在這邊其實也為台電的員工致敬覺得他們不眠不休的搶救真的是非常的辛苦\n29265\t45836\t可是我們也要強調這麼多人問下來就是錯誤的能源政策造成我們現在的電力系統這樣子的脆弱我希望經濟部可以反省國部長今天沒有來可是國部長之前老員工提醒他錯誤的能源政策的時候\n46516\t69982\t他在備詢的時候是說不爽就不要做啊可以離職啊他是這樣子講的那這次 昭偉也很知道啊你的福台都已經飄到澎湖去了你的福台的殘骸都已經卡在消波塊了經濟部特別做圖卡說人民不要造謠喔不要造謠上面有光電板喔造謠的人我們要報警喔\n71202\t84375\t這相比起來跟你今天說你要趕到南部去看基層的台電的同仁 我覺得情何以堪 你做出來的樣子跟你今天在這邊說你沒有辦法來答詢的這個\n87014\t107742\t理由我覺得不堪一擊啦那這邊剛看了這麼多委員質詢的圖片我們發現台南是整排的電線桿倒塌屋頂掀飛的幾千戶我現在講的是人命剛剛一位很辛苦的台電人人OKA現在放葉克摩\n108402\t117260\t但是我們因為一整個禮拜活在黑暗中有八十幾歲的阿嬤點蠟燭可是不幸往生 因為\n119144\t145203\t這個起火那另外一位里長是因為呼吸器斷電他們已經在黑暗中這樣子過這不是我們應該要有的經濟部應該要全面的檢討你們的能源政策然而我們在問這些問題的時候事發當時有縣長在北歐考察執政黨委員在大罷免大遶境媒體對於台南的訊息通通都不報\n146024\t163497\t然後我們總統去勘栽說什麼 說這不是國軍的慷慨說我們要有社會韌性說這個屋頂你要自己擺起來啊那民眾說沒水 沒網路 沒電手機沒有訊號要怎麼生活他說郭國文委員的手機有訊號啊\n164838\t170402\t我們台灣人到底是多麼的悲哀才會用這樣子破爛的能源政策來賠命啊已經兩位老人家這是我剛剛聽到這麼多委員質詢最感慨的事情那我現在想先請次長\n186889\t205667\t已經說了福台你好福台現在散落的到處都是你自己也沒辦法預估什麼時候才可以把所有的殘骸全部撈回來黃國昌委員陳昭芝委員都說這個就是人民的納稅錢所補助的計畫去做的\n206857\t213225\t那你說你還要先問廠商才可以給我們這個計劃書你這個計劃書早就已經寫好了現在並不是讓你們在勘栽很忙碌的時間還要伸出什麼報告給我們這個計劃書早就有了我相信張委很想看吧\n224875\t237086\t因為交委現在每天都到屏東的海岸去看你那些福台到底收完了沒他預測一個月都收不完那我們是不是還要再排一次專報或者是質詢請問我們想問我們這麼基本的計畫書這個結構性的錯誤中間是不是有什麼弊案然後人民納稅錢補助的這個計畫\n248936\t262442\t請問你這個計畫書你覺得你可以在多久的期限之內問到廠商的許可然後可以給委員們謝謝委員首先代表台電的員工感謝委員對台電員工的關懷\n263992\t284940\t這第一點 第二點有關於屏東這個案場我們的資料第一個所有的浮到這個海岸邊的這個部分要清理那我們當然剛剛也有聽到海委會到海下裡面去看有沒有光電板在此跟委員跟大家說明這一次丹納斯颱風之前\n286981\t314869\t這個光電板都已經移除了我們現在是看到湖台的部分那這湖台的部分的話當然即刻的清理除此之外的話委員所關心的資料的部分因為這裡面不但有涉及到公共利益也涉及到個人資料的保護所以我們需要依照法規的這個執行來處理那我們已經我們只有大概是10天之內我們要求廠商給我們一個回覆\n315569\t344335\t那第一個問題你已經答覆了就是10天之內你可以獲得廠商的回覆決定要不要給我們計劃書所以也有可能我們沒有計劃書 對嗎它涉及到所謂的它個資的部分公司的營運的部分所以10天我們就知道有或沒有那第二個問題你剛剛提到的因為你們今天的報告都有寫你們會盡速的把這些浮台全部打撈回來然後這個消波塊也會處理乾淨請問這個期限是多久因為朝委也很想知道\n345677\t373679\t事實上我們在7月11號之前已經把大部分的都清理了但是因為隨著這個海浪風浪的這個影響他這些所謂的福台HDPE包括有一些的細部的設施可能還有漂到其他海岸的這個地方我們會請能源署教學廠商確實一一的逐一的詢點所以兩個問題都沒有答案沒有現在都已經清了差不多了\n374192\t383594\t但多久以內請完你還不知道啦這個屏東縣政府已經有給他限期了會繼續採訪好次長您請回座接下來我們請環境部部長\n388491\t417491\t好部長有一個年輕人會玩的叫做狼人殺就是找出到底是誰在說謊這個是風災之後經濟部說受損的光碟板一直在清潤無毒不會造成污染但同一天或是前後兩天您說光電模組含有金屬與化學物質若沒有妥善清除處理恐流入土壤和水體引發長期的污染疑慮\n419632\t443470\t包委員這個我們有跟他那位記者表示不一樣的意見因為我們有一個新聞稿說得很清楚我們沒有這樣說是隔天的新聞稿他加了一些他自己的看法進去那當然啦任何的這個儀器或是電器都有金屬在裡面例如說我們的手機所以其實泡到水長久以來對環境都是不好的所以其實您覺得經濟部的這張圖卡\n446592\t468840\t沒有寫得夠清楚 對嗎左邊是左邊 我說的是右邊你看到右邊那張圖因為你剛剛有講啊 你說長期浸泡在水裡或是土壤裡還是會有其影響就是任何的東西 反走過不一定有痕跡嘛所以它絕對不是無毒嘛 對不對它不是無毒基本上它不是有害的廢棄物啦那至於有沒有毒 是一個風險跟濃度的關係\n471365\t495812\t所以它不是無毒目前我們量到現在沒有毒但是如果放了很久那個例如說紅或是銀如果放很久很久可能幾年那當然一定會慢慢的影響到水質了解沒關係等一下我們來討論再來你隔天又有另外一個說法說太陽能模組主要是鋁礦玻璃EVA模發電元件並未被列為有害廢棄物這個你剛剛也講了還提醒外界勿混淆視聽\n501154\t515110\t這個我前面已經講得很清楚了已經有人因此而喪命可是經濟部在發圖卡叫大家不要造謠然後你叫大家不要混淆視聽委員是什麼喪命?因為太陽光電板喪命嗎?\n515871\t538833\t不是不是不是我的意思是說我們現在當務之急是要去找這些光電板引起的污染還有這些光電板有沒有碎裂找不到序號的有沒有根本回收不回來的這才是我們的當務之急不是嗎是是好那這些大型的光電板當然現在還有很多網路上有非常多鄉民啊他們有看到\n540263\t560132\t飛到車子裡的啦卡到土裡的啦掉到池塘水裡的還有在樹上他們還說可以行光合作用的這些光電板啊都已經碎裂的一塌糊塗到處都是那每一片有所謂的身分證跟序號嘛我們今天有看到經濟部說可能\n561712\t570458\t這個損失是0.4%0.4%請問兩個部門有辦法詳列出這0.4%裡面最後找不到的碎裂的你們找得回來嗎因為我們只知道你是回推0.4%沒有了可是我們不曉得經過一次風災以後沒有辦法修復的或者是序號再也找不到的有多少比例這個數據我們要怎麼樣獲得\n590511\t610868\t這一定可以獲得的啦因為我們都可以算的出來大概14.5萬片那當然每一片都有它的一個序號所以到時候就可以出來說到底誰被我回收回來因為等於是每一個面板上面都有貼了一個代碼有一個QR code什麼是出產年月日哪裡製造的都全部都所以你會知道哪一些序號最終沒辦法找回來了\n611708\t638806\t對一定可以的那這個數據我們大概多久才會現在就是說像嘉義嘉義可能就是說我們對大型的剛剛那個像新溫的滯洪池我們要他兩個禮拜前兩個禮拜內一定要清掉如果小的話就一個禮拜內然後他要去這個所謂去化廠去把它去化掉所以第一個是那邊第二個是那邊那另外那邊呢大概要花1.5個月但是現場我們希望兩個禮拜內要清除掉\n639568\t666986\t好 我們平均我就看了一下數據這個部長也很清楚每年我們平均的颱風大概5到7至8個3到4個登陸的好 如果你們每一次都需要1.5個月統計我會覺得有一點點久不過這次我們希望可以在1.5個月後可以看到這些數據我們才知道這些光電板它的年限本來應該是20到30年所以它多少比例會因為天然的災害而提早被淘汰嗎\n667826\t684988\t包委員因為這一次是第一次在嘉義登陸而且是涼到將近快要到16到17級的強震風基本上那個屋頂都被掀開來那那個在餘溫的光電板他用纜繩拉的那就容易斷裂其實屋頂的陸域型的是沒有什麼影響的\n685969\t705142\t部長我們還是以防患於未然好嗎這個是您剛其實講得很清楚這個光電板你要回收哪些金屬部分它裡面的材質包括什麼那其實我就是要跟你討論剛剛我們討論的我們先舉裡面最大成分的焊接的鉛好了\n706349\t730109\t簽列為國際第一級的高毒性重金屬台灣環保的法規限制含鉛的土壤需要清除喔所以它對人體健康的影響有神經毒性兒童智能發展障礙腎損害長期是還有可能致癌這個是裡面它焊接的主要成分再來它上下這個膜希望水不要滲透進去的浮化的塑料\n731210\t750504\t這一些他如果已經掉在荒郊野外經過高溫焚燒產生的代藥芯吸入有高度的毒性也有可能會致癌所以你所以到底所以這就是為什麼我問你有毒還是沒有毒你跟經濟部一定有一個人是錯的不過我現在比較相信你\n751284\t772300\t因為這些東西在環境中長期的曝露沒有人把它找回來一定有嘛 很多啊現在網友到處他去爬山或去勘栽他就馬上發現這邊一塊光電管那邊一塊這些東西長期在環境中就是會對我們的土壤還有水質產生毒性那我覺得比起我們前幾個禮拜的質詢我們空屋討論這麼細討論到PM0.1\n778704\t803632\t結果對現在這些天災產生的錯誤的能源政策製造出來的污染源是視而不見啦 是為什麼包委員 這個像你說的這個鉛喔我們剛剛今天報告 我禮拜一派同仁去量那其實未檢出 鉛未檢出等於是光電板到的這個滯洪池或餘溫去未檢出鉛 目前的情況是這樣但是你剛剛也有講啊 你說放很久的會\n804572\t827077\t對但是這個就需要科學的這個實驗驗證啦那我們過去是沒有做過這樣的東西但是常理都知道例如說我把我的手機放在水裡面泡個五年那當然那個水我們都一定會有一點疑慮嘛對所以為什麼我們希望獲得那個數據因為你一定有一些序號是找不回來的而這些找不回來的序號就是在環境中繼續衍生出污染物啊不是嗎\n827877\t841144\t對 如果是這個是現在我們先把它清除完如果後續如果遺失很多的話那當然後續的監控我們都一定要做好 昭緯如果真的遺失很多我們再來排一次專報好嗎好 那接下來我想放一段影片\n844464\t873163\t這個是部長您不在三片谷的國內的時候都是民進黨錯誤的能源政策所造成的本來這個山坡地是以種綠荷包鳳梨 水果等等人民但是配合政府的綠能綠電政策把土地租給廠商來開發光電這不是什麼能源轉型這個叫做對土地的背叛對環境的掠奪我們就是因為之前那個50公頃沒有接受環評才會發生這樣子恐怖的事情這邊會列條因為屬於國有土地但經能源主管機關同意者不在環評的限制設置累積面積15公頃以上才需要做環評\n873763\t874964\t這個我剛剛聽到你有答覆王玉敏委員了\n892190\t918472\t除了15公頃以下還有國營事業的土地還有開發行為如果是附屬的設施只要主管機關認定就免評估剛剛很多委員又加上了一個水域對不對對那你們這個因為我這個已經是您在國外的時候您參加一個研討會的質詢當時次長說會研議會檢討會開會現在已經一個月過去了我也想知道你的進度在哪裡啊\n921631\t921852\t我們請我們市長\n924042\t950988\t報告人 那個有關研議加研的部分 其實我們內部已經有討論過 那但是因為不修法的情況下 我們可以要求能源署在針對他們免還 認定免還平等 因為我們那個是經能源主管機關同意者不在此限 那他們必須要有他們相關的程序 還有要會商農業部和環保單位 這個我們有要求他們要\n951488\t976773\t把它程序要明確化把它訂出來這個是沒有修法的加嚴的部分那如果有修法的部分其實我們跟同學有討論過可以有很多方向那但是初步我們有想說也許就雙主管機關因為原來只有能源主管機關會不會就是連林業主管機關也加進來必須兩者同意才可以免環評甚至是\n978086\t1007086\t有很多種情境啊最嚴情境就是這個部分只要有在那個林地的地方全部都要翻屏大家其實蠻擔心的因為下一個颱風又在靠近我們了這個禮拜都看到沿海農業區保育區全部都被這些光電板漂浮的亂七八糟好你說你要跟其他的主管機關我們也只是問進度我剛問進度你到底什麼時候會把它加嚴這也是一般人民想知道的多久以內你會把它加嚴嗎\n1008902\t1027421\t我們上次有答覆您就是說基本上如果要涉及那個整體的因為我們今年1月16號才修訂完嘛那我們會並我們環評總體檢的部分一起如果要涉及要修法的部分我們並那個一起檢討一起來處理年底前\n1028474\t1046352\t我們今年年底之前應該會到年底到或是明年初之前環兵總體檢會完成那個完成之後我們就會來啟動是不是要修法反正我們年底之前會看到你先加研嘛就是我們先總體檢完我們到底需要怎麼樣改\n1048103\t1048363\t1%的光電板?呃\n1070427\t1091258\t基本上我們是108年以後都有被我們列管啦108年以前那時候制度是沒有列管的我是去年的3月21在委員會提了臨時提案要求把太陽能光電板列入因回收的項目完備廢棄太陽能板的回收機制你現在那一年了你什麼時候可以把它納入回收機制\n1096588\t1103722\t我們這個是在做一個預告 預告是八月預告預計八月預告所以你們會跟\n1105607\t1129264\t經濟部因為經濟部有一個特別條例的草案各位報告那我們在光電板要回收部分目前是透過他的那個等過費去收那但是其他有一部分是沒有去透過等過費去收我們就用這個廢清法來做一個處理來要求我就只問彭部長最後一個問題這也是這次從您的報告裡面看出來的\n1129904\t1154872\t您其實有預估一個未來光電板淘汰的壽命他們大概20到30年那廢棄物的話呢到121年年回收量1萬片128年10萬片那你那個時候是用天然災害的損壞率0.2到0.5%來估算的但今天的報告是寫說一次風災就0.4%你剛也講登陸的颱風你會想要調整這個數據嗎\n1159490\t1181615\t這個我們可以再討論啦 不過報告委員 這個是這次是一個特別的天災然後我們光電板在這個餘溫還有滯洪池上面從來沒有遇過這麼大的過啦所以我是認為我們也可以來檢討這件事情 對我覺得部長你還是體會一下住在家裡的人的心情啦就是大家還是會希望這件事情不要再發生 好嗎好 謝謝\n","txt":"因為剛剛有感而發聽到昭緯在為台電的員工覺得抱屈也聽了很多委員質詢的內容那本席在這邊其實也為台電的員工致敬覺得他們不眠不休的搶救真的是非常的辛苦\n可是我們也要強調這麼多人問下來就是錯誤的能源政策造成我們現在的電力系統這樣子的脆弱我希望經濟部可以反省國部長今天沒有來可是國部長之前老員工提醒他錯誤的能源政策的時候\n他在備詢的時候是說不爽就不要做啊可以離職啊他是這樣子講的那這次 昭偉也很知道啊你的福台都已經飄到澎湖去了你的福台的殘骸都已經卡在消波塊了經濟部特別做圖卡說人民不要造謠喔不要造謠上面有光電板喔造謠的人我們要報警喔\n這相比起來跟你今天說你要趕到南部去看基層的台電的同仁 我覺得情何以堪 你做出來的樣子跟你今天在這邊說你沒有辦法來答詢的這個\n理由我覺得不堪一擊啦那這邊剛看了這麼多委員質詢的圖片我們發現台南是整排的電線桿倒塌屋頂掀飛的幾千戶我現在講的是人命剛剛一位很辛苦的台電人人OKA現在放葉克摩\n但是我們因為一整個禮拜活在黑暗中有八十幾歲的阿嬤點蠟燭可是不幸往生 因為\n這個起火那另外一位里長是因為呼吸器斷電他們已經在黑暗中這樣子過這不是我們應該要有的經濟部應該要全面的檢討你們的能源政策然而我們在問這些問題的時候事發當時有縣長在北歐考察執政黨委員在大罷免大遶境媒體對於台南的訊息通通都不報\n然後我們總統去勘栽說什麼 說這不是國軍的慷慨說我們要有社會韌性說這個屋頂你要自己擺起來啊那民眾說沒水 沒網路 沒電手機沒有訊號要怎麼生活他說郭國文委員的手機有訊號啊\n我們台灣人到底是多麼的悲哀才會用這樣子破爛的能源政策來賠命啊已經兩位老人家這是我剛剛聽到這麼多委員質詢最感慨的事情那我現在想先請次長\n已經說了福台你好福台現在散落的到處都是你自己也沒辦法預估什麼時候才可以把所有的殘骸全部撈回來黃國昌委員陳昭芝委員都說這個就是人民的納稅錢所補助的計畫去做的\n那你說你還要先問廠商才可以給我們這個計劃書你這個計劃書早就已經寫好了現在並不是讓你們在勘栽很忙碌的時間還要伸出什麼報告給我們這個計劃書早就有了我相信張委很想看吧\n因為交委現在每天都到屏東的海岸去看你那些福台到底收完了沒他預測一個月都收不完那我們是不是還要再排一次專報或者是質詢請問我們想問我們這麼基本的計畫書這個結構性的錯誤中間是不是有什麼弊案然後人民納稅錢補助的這個計畫\n請問你這個計畫書你覺得你可以在多久的期限之內問到廠商的許可然後可以給委員們謝謝委員首先代表台電的員工感謝委員對台電員工的關懷\n這第一點 第二點有關於屏東這個案場我們的資料第一個所有的浮到這個海岸邊的這個部分要清理那我們當然剛剛也有聽到海委會到海下裡面去看有沒有光電板在此跟委員跟大家說明這一次丹納斯颱風之前\n這個光電板都已經移除了我們現在是看到湖台的部分那這湖台的部分的話當然即刻的清理除此之外的話委員所關心的資料的部分因為這裡面不但有涉及到公共利益也涉及到個人資料的保護所以我們需要依照法規的這個執行來處理那我們已經我們只有大概是10天之內我們要求廠商給我們一個回覆\n那第一個問題你已經答覆了就是10天之內你可以獲得廠商的回覆決定要不要給我們計劃書所以也有可能我們沒有計劃書 對嗎它涉及到所謂的它個資的部分公司的營運的部分所以10天我們就知道有或沒有那第二個問題你剛剛提到的因為你們今天的報告都有寫你們會盡速的把這些浮台全部打撈回來然後這個消波塊也會處理乾淨請問這個期限是多久因為朝委也很想知道\n事實上我們在7月11號之前已經把大部分的都清理了但是因為隨著這個海浪風浪的這個影響他這些所謂的福台HDPE包括有一些的細部的設施可能還有漂到其他海岸的這個地方我們會請能源署教學廠商確實一一的逐一的詢點所以兩個問題都沒有答案沒有現在都已經清了差不多了\n但多久以內請完你還不知道啦這個屏東縣政府已經有給他限期了會繼續採訪好次長您請回座接下來我們請環境部部長\n好部長有一個年輕人會玩的叫做狼人殺就是找出到底是誰在說謊這個是風災之後經濟部說受損的光碟板一直在清潤無毒不會造成污染但同一天或是前後兩天您說光電模組含有金屬與化學物質若沒有妥善清除處理恐流入土壤和水體引發長期的污染疑慮\n包委員這個我們有跟他那位記者表示不一樣的意見因為我們有一個新聞稿說得很清楚我們沒有這樣說是隔天的新聞稿他加了一些他自己的看法進去那當然啦任何的這個儀器或是電器都有金屬在裡面例如說我們的手機所以其實泡到水長久以來對環境都是不好的所以其實您覺得經濟部的這張圖卡\n沒有寫得夠清楚 對嗎左邊是左邊 我說的是右邊你看到右邊那張圖因為你剛剛有講啊 你說長期浸泡在水裡或是土壤裡還是會有其影響就是任何的東西 反走過不一定有痕跡嘛所以它絕對不是無毒嘛 對不對它不是無毒基本上它不是有害的廢棄物啦那至於有沒有毒 是一個風險跟濃度的關係\n所以它不是無毒目前我們量到現在沒有毒但是如果放了很久那個例如說紅或是銀如果放很久很久可能幾年那當然一定會慢慢的影響到水質了解沒關係等一下我們來討論再來你隔天又有另外一個說法說太陽能模組主要是鋁礦玻璃EVA模發電元件並未被列為有害廢棄物這個你剛剛也講了還提醒外界勿混淆視聽\n這個我前面已經講得很清楚了已經有人因此而喪命可是經濟部在發圖卡叫大家不要造謠然後你叫大家不要混淆視聽委員是什麼喪命?因為太陽光電板喪命嗎?\n不是不是不是我的意思是說我們現在當務之急是要去找這些光電板引起的污染還有這些光電板有沒有碎裂找不到序號的有沒有根本回收不回來的這才是我們的當務之急不是嗎是是好那這些大型的光電板當然現在還有很多網路上有非常多鄉民啊他們有看到\n飛到車子裡的啦卡到土裡的啦掉到池塘水裡的還有在樹上他們還說可以行光合作用的這些光電板啊都已經碎裂的一塌糊塗到處都是那每一片有所謂的身分證跟序號嘛我們今天有看到經濟部說可能\n這個損失是0.4%0.4%請問兩個部門有辦法詳列出這0.4%裡面最後找不到的碎裂的你們找得回來嗎因為我們只知道你是回推0.4%沒有了可是我們不曉得經過一次風災以後沒有辦法修復的或者是序號再也找不到的有多少比例這個數據我們要怎麼樣獲得\n這一定可以獲得的啦因為我們都可以算的出來大概14.5萬片那當然每一片都有它的一個序號所以到時候就可以出來說到底誰被我回收回來因為等於是每一個面板上面都有貼了一個代碼有一個QR code什麼是出產年月日哪裡製造的都全部都所以你會知道哪一些序號最終沒辦法找回來了\n對一定可以的那這個數據我們大概多久才會現在就是說像嘉義嘉義可能就是說我們對大型的剛剛那個像新溫的滯洪池我們要他兩個禮拜前兩個禮拜內一定要清掉如果小的話就一個禮拜內然後他要去這個所謂去化廠去把它去化掉所以第一個是那邊第二個是那邊那另外那邊呢大概要花1.5個月但是現場我們希望兩個禮拜內要清除掉\n好 我們平均我就看了一下數據這個部長也很清楚每年我們平均的颱風大概5到7至8個3到4個登陸的好 如果你們每一次都需要1.5個月統計我會覺得有一點點久不過這次我們希望可以在1.5個月後可以看到這些數據我們才知道這些光電板它的年限本來應該是20到30年所以它多少比例會因為天然的災害而提早被淘汰嗎\n包委員因為這一次是第一次在嘉義登陸而且是涼到將近快要到16到17級的強震風基本上那個屋頂都被掀開來那那個在餘溫的光電板他用纜繩拉的那就容易斷裂其實屋頂的陸域型的是沒有什麼影響的\n部長我們還是以防患於未然好嗎這個是您剛其實講得很清楚這個光電板你要回收哪些金屬部分它裡面的材質包括什麼那其實我就是要跟你討論剛剛我們討論的我們先舉裡面最大成分的焊接的鉛好了\n簽列為國際第一級的高毒性重金屬台灣環保的法規限制含鉛的土壤需要清除喔所以它對人體健康的影響有神經毒性兒童智能發展障礙腎損害長期是還有可能致癌這個是裡面它焊接的主要成分再來它上下這個膜希望水不要滲透進去的浮化的塑料\n這一些他如果已經掉在荒郊野外經過高溫焚燒產生的代藥芯吸入有高度的毒性也有可能會致癌所以你所以到底所以這就是為什麼我問你有毒還是沒有毒你跟經濟部一定有一個人是錯的不過我現在比較相信你\n因為這些東西在環境中長期的曝露沒有人把它找回來一定有嘛 很多啊現在網友到處他去爬山或去勘栽他就馬上發現這邊一塊光電管那邊一塊這些東西長期在環境中就是會對我們的土壤還有水質產生毒性那我覺得比起我們前幾個禮拜的質詢我們空屋討論這麼細討論到PM0.1\n結果對現在這些天災產生的錯誤的能源政策製造出來的污染源是視而不見啦 是為什麼包委員 這個像你說的這個鉛喔我們剛剛今天報告 我禮拜一派同仁去量那其實未檢出 鉛未檢出等於是光電板到的這個滯洪池或餘溫去未檢出鉛 目前的情況是這樣但是你剛剛也有講啊 你說放很久的會\n對但是這個就需要科學的這個實驗驗證啦那我們過去是沒有做過這樣的東西但是常理都知道例如說我把我的手機放在水裡面泡個五年那當然那個水我們都一定會有一點疑慮嘛對所以為什麼我們希望獲得那個數據因為你一定有一些序號是找不回來的而這些找不回來的序號就是在環境中繼續衍生出污染物啊不是嗎\n對 如果是這個是現在我們先把它清除完如果後續如果遺失很多的話那當然後續的監控我們都一定要做好 昭緯如果真的遺失很多我們再來排一次專報好嗎好 那接下來我想放一段影片\n這個是部長您不在三片谷的國內的時候都是民進黨錯誤的能源政策所造成的本來這個山坡地是以種綠荷包鳳梨 水果等等人民但是配合政府的綠能綠電政策把土地租給廠商來開發光電這不是什麼能源轉型這個叫做對土地的背叛對環境的掠奪我們就是因為之前那個50公頃沒有接受環評才會發生這樣子恐怖的事情這邊會列條因為屬於國有土地但經能源主管機關同意者不在環評的限制設置累積面積15公頃以上才需要做環評\n這個我剛剛聽到你有答覆王玉敏委員了\n除了15公頃以下還有國營事業的土地還有開發行為如果是附屬的設施只要主管機關認定就免評估剛剛很多委員又加上了一個水域對不對對那你們這個因為我這個已經是您在國外的時候您參加一個研討會的質詢當時次長說會研議會檢討會開會現在已經一個月過去了我也想知道你的進度在哪裡啊\n我們請我們市長\n報告人 那個有關研議加研的部分 其實我們內部已經有討論過 那但是因為不修法的情況下 我們可以要求能源署在針對他們免還 認定免還平等 因為我們那個是經能源主管機關同意者不在此限 那他們必須要有他們相關的程序 還有要會商農業部和環保單位 這個我們有要求他們要\n把它程序要明確化把它訂出來這個是沒有修法的加嚴的部分那如果有修法的部分其實我們跟同學有討論過可以有很多方向那但是初步我們有想說也許就雙主管機關因為原來只有能源主管機關會不會就是連林業主管機關也加進來必須兩者同意才可以免環評甚至是\n有很多種情境啊最嚴情境就是這個部分只要有在那個林地的地方全部都要翻屏大家其實蠻擔心的因為下一個颱風又在靠近我們了這個禮拜都看到沿海農業區保育區全部都被這些光電板漂浮的亂七八糟好你說你要跟其他的主管機關我們也只是問進度我剛問進度你到底什麼時候會把它加嚴這也是一般人民想知道的多久以內你會把它加嚴嗎\n我們上次有答覆您就是說基本上如果要涉及那個整體的因為我們今年1月16號才修訂完嘛那我們會並我們環評總體檢的部分一起如果要涉及要修法的部分我們並那個一起檢討一起來處理年底前\n我們今年年底之前應該會到年底到或是明年初之前環兵總體檢會完成那個完成之後我們就會來啟動是不是要修法反正我們年底之前會看到你先加研嘛就是我們先總體檢完我們到底需要怎麼樣改\n1%的光電板?呃\n基本上我們是108年以後都有被我們列管啦108年以前那時候制度是沒有列管的我是去年的3月21在委員會提了臨時提案要求把太陽能光電板列入因回收的項目完備廢棄太陽能板的回收機制你現在那一年了你什麼時候可以把它納入回收機制\n我們這個是在做一個預告 預告是八月預告預計八月預告所以你們會跟\n經濟部因為經濟部有一個特別條例的草案各位報告那我們在光電板要回收部分目前是透過他的那個等過費去收那但是其他有一部分是沒有去透過等過費去收我們就用這個廢清法來做一個處理來要求我就只問彭部長最後一個問題這也是這次從您的報告裡面看出來的\n您其實有預估一個未來光電板淘汰的壽命他們大概20到30年那廢棄物的話呢到121年年回收量1萬片128年10萬片那你那個時候是用天然災害的損壞率0.2到0.5%來估算的但今天的報告是寫說一次風災就0.4%你剛也講登陸的颱風你會想要調整這個數據嗎\n這個我們可以再討論啦 不過報告委員 這個是這次是一個特別的天災然後我們光電板在這個餘溫還有滯洪池上面從來沒有遇過這麼大的過啦所以我是認為我們也可以來檢討這件事情 對我覺得部長你還是體會一下住在家裡的人的心情啦就是大家還是會希望這件事情不要再發生 好嗎好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.009 --> 00:01.610\n因為剛剛有感而發聽到昭緯在為台電的員工覺得抱屈也聽了很多委員質詢的內容那本席在這邊其實也為台電的員工致敬覺得他們不眠不休的搶救真的是非常的辛苦\n\n00:29.265 --> 00:45.836\n可是我們也要強調這麼多人問下來就是錯誤的能源政策造成我們現在的電力系統這樣子的脆弱我希望經濟部可以反省國部長今天沒有來可是國部長之前老員工提醒他錯誤的能源政策的時候\n\n00:46.516 --> 01:09.982\n他在備詢的時候是說不爽就不要做啊可以離職啊他是這樣子講的那這次昭偉也很知道啊你的福台都已經飄到澎湖去了你的福台的殘骸都已經卡在消波塊了經濟部特別做圖卡說人民不要造謠喔不要造謠上面有光電板喔造謠的人我們要報警喔\n\n01:11.202 --> 01:24.375\n這相比起來跟你今天說你要趕到南部去看基層的台電的同仁我覺得情何以堪你做出來的樣子跟你今天在這邊說你沒有辦法來答詢的這個\n\n01:27.014 --> 01:47.742\n理由我覺得不堪一擊啦那這邊剛看了這麼多委員質詢的圖片我們發現台南是整排的電線桿倒塌屋頂掀飛的幾千戶我現在講的是人命剛剛一位很辛苦的台電人人OKA現在放葉克摩\n\n01:48.402 --> 01:57.260\n但是我們因為一整個禮拜活在黑暗中有八十幾歲的阿嬤點蠟燭可是不幸往生因為\n\n01:59.144 --> 02:25.203\n這個起火那另外一位里長是因為呼吸器斷電他們已經在黑暗中這樣子過這不是我們應該要有的經濟部應該要全面的檢討你們的能源政策然而我們在問這些問題的時候事發當時有縣長在北歐考察執政黨委員在大罷免大遶境媒體對於台南的訊息通通都不報\n\n02:26.024 --> 02:43.497\n然後我們總統去勘栽說什麼說這不是國軍的慷慨說我們要有社會韌性說這個屋頂你要自己擺起來啊那民眾說沒水沒網路沒電手機沒有訊號要怎麼生活他說郭國文委員的手機有訊號啊\n\n02:44.838 --> 02:50.402\n我們台灣人到底是多麼的悲哀才會用這樣子破爛的能源政策來賠命啊已經兩位老人家這是我剛剛聽到這麼多委員質詢最感慨的事情那我現在想先請次長\n\n03:06.889 --> 03:25.667\n已經說了福台你好福台現在散落的到處都是你自己也沒辦法預估什麼時候才可以把所有的殘骸全部撈回來黃國昌委員陳昭芝委員都說這個就是人民的納稅錢所補助的計畫去做的\n\n03:26.857 --> 03:33.225\n那你說你還要先問廠商才可以給我們這個計劃書你這個計劃書早就已經寫好了現在並不是讓你們在勘栽很忙碌的時間還要伸出什麼報告給我們這個計劃書早就有了我相信張委很想看吧\n\n03:44.875 --> 03:57.086\n因為交委現在每天都到屏東的海岸去看你那些福台到底收完了沒他預測一個月都收不完那我們是不是還要再排一次專報或者是質詢請問我們想問我們這麼基本的計畫書這個結構性的錯誤中間是不是有什麼弊案然後人民納稅錢補助的這個計畫\n\n04:08.936 --> 04:22.442\n請問你這個計畫書你覺得你可以在多久的期限之內問到廠商的許可然後可以給委員們謝謝委員首先代表台電的員工感謝委員對台電員工的關懷\n\n04:23.992 --> 04:44.940\n這第一點第二點有關於屏東這個案場我們的資料第一個所有的浮到這個海岸邊的這個部分要清理那我們當然剛剛也有聽到海委會到海下裡面去看有沒有光電板在此跟委員跟大家說明這一次丹納斯颱風之前\n\n04:46.981 --> 05:14.869\n這個光電板都已經移除了我們現在是看到湖台的部分那這湖台的部分的話當然即刻的清理除此之外的話委員所關心的資料的部分因為這裡面不但有涉及到公共利益也涉及到個人資料的保護所以我們需要依照法規的這個執行來處理那我們已經我們只有大概是10天之內我們要求廠商給我們一個回覆\n\n05:15.569 --> 05:44.335\n那第一個問題你已經答覆了就是10天之內你可以獲得廠商的回覆決定要不要給我們計劃書所以也有可能我們沒有計劃書對嗎它涉及到所謂的它個資的部分公司的營運的部分所以10天我們就知道有或沒有那第二個問題你剛剛提到的因為你們今天的報告都有寫你們會盡速的把這些浮台全部打撈回來然後這個消波塊也會處理乾淨請問這個期限是多久因為朝委也很想知道\n\n05:45.677 --> 06:13.679\n事實上我們在7月11號之前已經把大部分的都清理了但是因為隨著這個海浪風浪的這個影響他這些所謂的福台HDPE包括有一些的細部的設施可能還有漂到其他海岸的這個地方我們會請能源署教學廠商確實一一的逐一的詢點所以兩個問題都沒有答案沒有現在都已經清了差不多了\n\n06:14.192 --> 06:23.594\n但多久以內請完你還不知道啦這個屏東縣政府已經有給他限期了會繼續採訪好次長您請回座接下來我們請環境部部長\n\n06:28.491 --> 06:57.491\n好部長有一個年輕人會玩的叫做狼人殺就是找出到底是誰在說謊這個是風災之後經濟部說受損的光碟板一直在清潤無毒不會造成污染但同一天或是前後兩天您說光電模組含有金屬與化學物質若沒有妥善清除處理恐流入土壤和水體引發長期的污染疑慮\n\n06:59.632 --> 07:23.470\n包委員這個我們有跟他那位記者表示不一樣的意見因為我們有一個新聞稿說得很清楚我們沒有這樣說是隔天的新聞稿他加了一些他自己的看法進去那當然啦任何的這個儀器或是電器都有金屬在裡面例如說我們的手機所以其實泡到水長久以來對環境都是不好的所以其實您覺得經濟部的這張圖卡\n\n07:26.592 --> 07:48.840\n沒有寫得夠清楚對嗎左邊是左邊我說的是右邊你看到右邊那張圖因為你剛剛有講啊你說長期浸泡在水裡或是土壤裡還是會有其影響就是任何的東西反走過不一定有痕跡嘛所以它絕對不是無毒嘛對不對它不是無毒基本上它不是有害的廢棄物啦那至於有沒有毒是一個風險跟濃度的關係\n\n07:51.365 --> 08:15.812\n所以它不是無毒目前我們量到現在沒有毒但是如果放了很久那個例如說紅或是銀如果放很久很久可能幾年那當然一定會慢慢的影響到水質了解沒關係等一下我們來討論再來你隔天又有另外一個說法說太陽能模組主要是鋁礦玻璃EVA模發電元件並未被列為有害廢棄物這個你剛剛也講了還提醒外界勿混淆視聽\n\n08:21.154 --> 08:35.110\n這個我前面已經講得很清楚了已經有人因此而喪命可是經濟部在發圖卡叫大家不要造謠然後你叫大家不要混淆視聽委員是什麼喪命?因為太陽光電板喪命嗎?\n\n08:35.871 --> 08:58.833\n不是不是不是我的意思是說我們現在當務之急是要去找這些光電板引起的污染還有這些光電板有沒有碎裂找不到序號的有沒有根本回收不回來的這才是我們的當務之急不是嗎是是好那這些大型的光電板當然現在還有很多網路上有非常多鄉民啊他們有看到\n\n09:00.263 --> 09:20.132\n飛到車子裡的啦卡到土裡的啦掉到池塘水裡的還有在樹上他們還說可以行光合作用的這些光電板啊都已經碎裂的一塌糊塗到處都是那每一片有所謂的身分證跟序號嘛我們今天有看到經濟部說可能\n\n09:21.712 --> 09:30.458\n這個損失是0.4%0.4%請問兩個部門有辦法詳列出這0.4%裡面最後找不到的碎裂的你們找得回來嗎因為我們只知道你是回推0.4%沒有了可是我們不曉得經過一次風災以後沒有辦法修復的或者是序號再也找不到的有多少比例這個數據我們要怎麼樣獲得\n\n09:50.511 --> 10:10.868\n這一定可以獲得的啦因為我們都可以算的出來大概14.5萬片那當然每一片都有它的一個序號所以到時候就可以出來說到底誰被我回收回來因為等於是每一個面板上面都有貼了一個代碼有一個QRcode什麼是出產年月日哪裡製造的都全部都所以你會知道哪一些序號最終沒辦法找回來了\n\n10:11.708 --> 10:38.806\n對一定可以的那這個數據我們大概多久才會現在就是說像嘉義嘉義可能就是說我們對大型的剛剛那個像新溫的滯洪池我們要他兩個禮拜前兩個禮拜內一定要清掉如果小的話就一個禮拜內然後他要去這個所謂去化廠去把它去化掉所以第一個是那邊第二個是那邊那另外那邊呢大概要花1.5個月但是現場我們希望兩個禮拜內要清除掉\n\n10:39.568 --> 11:06.986\n好我們平均我就看了一下數據這個部長也很清楚每年我們平均的颱風大概5到7至8個3到4個登陸的好如果你們每一次都需要1.5個月統計我會覺得有一點點久不過這次我們希望可以在1.5個月後可以看到這些數據我們才知道這些光電板它的年限本來應該是20到30年所以它多少比例會因為天然的災害而提早被淘汰嗎\n\n11:07.826 --> 11:24.988\n包委員因為這一次是第一次在嘉義登陸而且是涼到將近快要到16到17級的強震風基本上那個屋頂都被掀開來那那個在餘溫的光電板他用纜繩拉的那就容易斷裂其實屋頂的陸域型的是沒有什麼影響的\n\n11:25.969 --> 11:45.142\n部長我們還是以防患於未然好嗎這個是您剛其實講得很清楚這個光電板你要回收哪些金屬部分它裡面的材質包括什麼那其實我就是要跟你討論剛剛我們討論的我們先舉裡面最大成分的焊接的鉛好了\n\n11:46.349 --> 12:10.109\n簽列為國際第一級的高毒性重金屬台灣環保的法規限制含鉛的土壤需要清除喔所以它對人體健康的影響有神經毒性兒童智能發展障礙腎損害長期是還有可能致癌這個是裡面它焊接的主要成分再來它上下這個膜希望水不要滲透進去的浮化的塑料\n\n12:11.210 --> 12:30.504\n這一些他如果已經掉在荒郊野外經過高溫焚燒產生的代藥芯吸入有高度的毒性也有可能會致癌所以你所以到底所以這就是為什麼我問你有毒還是沒有毒你跟經濟部一定有一個人是錯的不過我現在比較相信你\n\n12:31.284 --> 12:52.300\n因為這些東西在環境中長期的曝露沒有人把它找回來一定有嘛很多啊現在網友到處他去爬山或去勘栽他就馬上發現這邊一塊光電管那邊一塊這些東西長期在環境中就是會對我們的土壤還有水質產生毒性那我覺得比起我們前幾個禮拜的質詢我們空屋討論這麼細討論到PM0.1\n\n12:58.704 --> 13:23.632\n結果對現在這些天災產生的錯誤的能源政策製造出來的污染源是視而不見啦是為什麼包委員這個像你說的這個鉛喔我們剛剛今天報告我禮拜一派同仁去量那其實未檢出鉛未檢出等於是光電板到的這個滯洪池或餘溫去未檢出鉛目前的情況是這樣但是你剛剛也有講啊你說放很久的會\n\n13:24.572 --> 13:47.077\n對但是這個就需要科學的這個實驗驗證啦那我們過去是沒有做過這樣的東西但是常理都知道例如說我把我的手機放在水裡面泡個五年那當然那個水我們都一定會有一點疑慮嘛對所以為什麼我們希望獲得那個數據因為你一定有一些序號是找不回來的而這些找不回來的序號就是在環境中繼續衍生出污染物啊不是嗎\n\n13:47.877 --> 14:01.144\n對如果是這個是現在我們先把它清除完如果後續如果遺失很多的話那當然後續的監控我們都一定要做好昭緯如果真的遺失很多我們再來排一次專報好嗎好那接下來我想放一段影片\n\n14:04.464 --> 14:33.163\n這個是部長您不在三片谷的國內的時候都是民進黨錯誤的能源政策所造成的本來這個山坡地是以種綠荷包鳳梨水果等等人民但是配合政府的綠能綠電政策把土地租給廠商來開發光電這不是什麼能源轉型這個叫做對土地的背叛對環境的掠奪我們就是因為之前那個50公頃沒有接受環評才會發生這樣子恐怖的事情這邊會列條因為屬於國有土地但經能源主管機關同意者不在環評的限制設置累積面積15公頃以上才需要做環評\n\n14:33.763 --> 14:34.964\n這個我剛剛聽到你有答覆王玉敏委員了\n\n14:52.190 --> 15:18.472\n除了15公頃以下還有國營事業的土地還有開發行為如果是附屬的設施只要主管機關認定就免評估剛剛很多委員又加上了一個水域對不對對那你們這個因為我這個已經是您在國外的時候您參加一個研討會的質詢當時次長說會研議會檢討會開會現在已經一個月過去了我也想知道你的進度在哪裡啊\n\n15:21.631 --> 15:21.852\n我們請我們市長\n\n15:24.042 --> 15:50.988\n報告人那個有關研議加研的部分其實我們內部已經有討論過那但是因為不修法的情況下我們可以要求能源署在針對他們免還認定免還平等因為我們那個是經能源主管機關同意者不在此限那他們必須要有他們相關的程序還有要會商農業部和環保單位這個我們有要求他們要\n\n15:51.488 --> 16:16.773\n把它程序要明確化把它訂出來這個是沒有修法的加嚴的部分那如果有修法的部分其實我們跟同學有討論過可以有很多方向那但是初步我們有想說也許就雙主管機關因為原來只有能源主管機關會不會就是連林業主管機關也加進來必須兩者同意才可以免環評甚至是\n\n16:18.086 --> 16:47.086\n有很多種情境啊最嚴情境就是這個部分只要有在那個林地的地方全部都要翻屏大家其實蠻擔心的因為下一個颱風又在靠近我們了這個禮拜都看到沿海農業區保育區全部都被這些光電板漂浮的亂七八糟好你說你要跟其他的主管機關我們也只是問進度我剛問進度你到底什麼時候會把它加嚴這也是一般人民想知道的多久以內你會把它加嚴嗎\n\n16:48.902 --> 17:07.421\n我們上次有答覆您就是說基本上如果要涉及那個整體的因為我們今年1月16號才修訂完嘛那我們會並我們環評總體檢的部分一起如果要涉及要修法的部分我們並那個一起檢討一起來處理年底前\n\n17:08.474 --> 17:26.352\n我們今年年底之前應該會到年底到或是明年初之前環兵總體檢會完成那個完成之後我們就會來啟動是不是要修法反正我們年底之前會看到你先加研嘛就是我們先總體檢完我們到底需要怎麼樣改\n\n17:28.103 --> 17:28.363\n1%的光電板?呃\n\n17:50.427 --> 18:11.258\n基本上我們是108年以後都有被我們列管啦108年以前那時候制度是沒有列管的我是去年的3月21在委員會提了臨時提案要求把太陽能光電板列入因回收的項目完備廢棄太陽能板的回收機制你現在那一年了你什麼時候可以把它納入回收機制\n\n18:16.588 --> 18:23.722\n我們這個是在做一個預告預告是八月預告預計八月預告所以你們會跟\n\n18:25.607 --> 18:49.264\n經濟部因為經濟部有一個特別條例的草案各位報告那我們在光電板要回收部分目前是透過他的那個等過費去收那但是其他有一部分是沒有去透過等過費去收我們就用這個廢清法來做一個處理來要求我就只問彭部長最後一個問題這也是這次從您的報告裡面看出來的\n\n18:49.904 --> 19:14.872\n您其實有預估一個未來光電板淘汰的壽命他們大概20到30年那廢棄物的話呢到121年年回收量1萬片128年10萬片那你那個時候是用天然災害的損壞率0.2到0.5%來估算的但今天的報告是寫說一次風災就0.4%你剛也講登陸的颱風你會想要調整這個數據嗎\n\n19:19.490 --> 19:41.615\n這個我們可以再討論啦不過報告委員這個是這次是一個特別的天災然後我們光電板在這個餘溫還有滯洪池上面從來沒有遇過這麼大的過啦所以我是認為我們也可以來檢討這件事情對我覺得部長你還是體會一下住在家裡的人的心情啦就是大家還是會希望這件事情不要再發生好嗎好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.009,"end":1.61,"text":"因為剛剛有感而發聽到昭緯在為台電的員工覺得抱屈也聽了很多委員質詢的內容那本席在這邊其實也為台電的員工致敬覺得他們不眠不休的搶救真的是非常的辛苦"},{"start":29.265,"end":45.836,"text":"可是我們也要強調這麼多人問下來就是錯誤的能源政策造成我們現在的電力系統這樣子的脆弱我希望經濟部可以反省國部長今天沒有來可是國部長之前老員工提醒他錯誤的能源政策的時候"},{"start":46.516,"end":69.982,"text":"他在備詢的時候是說不爽就不要做啊可以離職啊他是這樣子講的那這次 昭偉也很知道啊你的福台都已經飄到澎湖去了你的福台的殘骸都已經卡在消波塊了經濟部特別做圖卡說人民不要造謠喔不要造謠上面有光電板喔造謠的人我們要報警喔"},{"start":71.202,"end":84.375,"text":"這相比起來跟你今天說你要趕到南部去看基層的台電的同仁 我覺得情何以堪 你做出來的樣子跟你今天在這邊說你沒有辦法來答詢的這個"},{"start":87.014,"end":107.742,"text":"理由我覺得不堪一擊啦那這邊剛看了這麼多委員質詢的圖片我們發現台南是整排的電線桿倒塌屋頂掀飛的幾千戶我現在講的是人命剛剛一位很辛苦的台電人人OKA現在放葉克摩"},{"start":108.402,"end":117.26,"text":"但是我們因為一整個禮拜活在黑暗中有八十幾歲的阿嬤點蠟燭可是不幸往生 因為"},{"start":119.144,"end":145.203,"text":"這個起火那另外一位里長是因為呼吸器斷電他們已經在黑暗中這樣子過這不是我們應該要有的經濟部應該要全面的檢討你們的能源政策然而我們在問這些問題的時候事發當時有縣長在北歐考察執政黨委員在大罷免大遶境媒體對於台南的訊息通通都不報"},{"start":146.024,"end":163.497,"text":"然後我們總統去勘栽說什麼 說這不是國軍的慷慨說我們要有社會韌性說這個屋頂你要自己擺起來啊那民眾說沒水 沒網路 沒電手機沒有訊號要怎麼生活他說郭國文委員的手機有訊號啊"},{"start":164.838,"end":170.402,"text":"我們台灣人到底是多麼的悲哀才會用這樣子破爛的能源政策來賠命啊已經兩位老人家這是我剛剛聽到這麼多委員質詢最感慨的事情那我現在想先請次長"},{"start":186.889,"end":205.667,"text":"已經說了福台你好福台現在散落的到處都是你自己也沒辦法預估什麼時候才可以把所有的殘骸全部撈回來黃國昌委員陳昭芝委員都說這個就是人民的納稅錢所補助的計畫去做的"},{"start":206.857,"end":213.225,"text":"那你說你還要先問廠商才可以給我們這個計劃書你這個計劃書早就已經寫好了現在並不是讓你們在勘栽很忙碌的時間還要伸出什麼報告給我們這個計劃書早就有了我相信張委很想看吧"},{"start":224.875,"end":237.086,"text":"因為交委現在每天都到屏東的海岸去看你那些福台到底收完了沒他預測一個月都收不完那我們是不是還要再排一次專報或者是質詢請問我們想問我們這麼基本的計畫書這個結構性的錯誤中間是不是有什麼弊案然後人民納稅錢補助的這個計畫"},{"start":248.936,"end":262.442,"text":"請問你這個計畫書你覺得你可以在多久的期限之內問到廠商的許可然後可以給委員們謝謝委員首先代表台電的員工感謝委員對台電員工的關懷"},{"start":263.992,"end":284.94,"text":"這第一點 第二點有關於屏東這個案場我們的資料第一個所有的浮到這個海岸邊的這個部分要清理那我們當然剛剛也有聽到海委會到海下裡面去看有沒有光電板在此跟委員跟大家說明這一次丹納斯颱風之前"},{"start":286.981,"end":314.869,"text":"這個光電板都已經移除了我們現在是看到湖台的部分那這湖台的部分的話當然即刻的清理除此之外的話委員所關心的資料的部分因為這裡面不但有涉及到公共利益也涉及到個人資料的保護所以我們需要依照法規的這個執行來處理那我們已經我們只有大概是10天之內我們要求廠商給我們一個回覆"},{"start":315.569,"end":344.335,"text":"那第一個問題你已經答覆了就是10天之內你可以獲得廠商的回覆決定要不要給我們計劃書所以也有可能我們沒有計劃書 對嗎它涉及到所謂的它個資的部分公司的營運的部分所以10天我們就知道有或沒有那第二個問題你剛剛提到的因為你們今天的報告都有寫你們會盡速的把這些浮台全部打撈回來然後這個消波塊也會處理乾淨請問這個期限是多久因為朝委也很想知道"},{"start":345.677,"end":373.679,"text":"事實上我們在7月11號之前已經把大部分的都清理了但是因為隨著這個海浪風浪的這個影響他這些所謂的福台HDPE包括有一些的細部的設施可能還有漂到其他海岸的這個地方我們會請能源署教學廠商確實一一的逐一的詢點所以兩個問題都沒有答案沒有現在都已經清了差不多了"},{"start":374.192,"end":383.594,"text":"但多久以內請完你還不知道啦這個屏東縣政府已經有給他限期了會繼續採訪好次長您請回座接下來我們請環境部部長"},{"start":388.491,"end":417.491,"text":"好部長有一個年輕人會玩的叫做狼人殺就是找出到底是誰在說謊這個是風災之後經濟部說受損的光碟板一直在清潤無毒不會造成污染但同一天或是前後兩天您說光電模組含有金屬與化學物質若沒有妥善清除處理恐流入土壤和水體引發長期的污染疑慮"},{"start":419.632,"end":443.47,"text":"包委員這個我們有跟他那位記者表示不一樣的意見因為我們有一個新聞稿說得很清楚我們沒有這樣說是隔天的新聞稿他加了一些他自己的看法進去那當然啦任何的這個儀器或是電器都有金屬在裡面例如說我們的手機所以其實泡到水長久以來對環境都是不好的所以其實您覺得經濟部的這張圖卡"},{"start":446.592,"end":468.84,"text":"沒有寫得夠清楚 對嗎左邊是左邊 我說的是右邊你看到右邊那張圖因為你剛剛有講啊 你說長期浸泡在水裡或是土壤裡還是會有其影響就是任何的東西 反走過不一定有痕跡嘛所以它絕對不是無毒嘛 對不對它不是無毒基本上它不是有害的廢棄物啦那至於有沒有毒 是一個風險跟濃度的關係"},{"start":471.365,"end":495.812,"text":"所以它不是無毒目前我們量到現在沒有毒但是如果放了很久那個例如說紅或是銀如果放很久很久可能幾年那當然一定會慢慢的影響到水質了解沒關係等一下我們來討論再來你隔天又有另外一個說法說太陽能模組主要是鋁礦玻璃EVA模發電元件並未被列為有害廢棄物這個你剛剛也講了還提醒外界勿混淆視聽"},{"start":501.154,"end":515.11,"text":"這個我前面已經講得很清楚了已經有人因此而喪命可是經濟部在發圖卡叫大家不要造謠然後你叫大家不要混淆視聽委員是什麼喪命?因為太陽光電板喪命嗎?"},{"start":515.871,"end":538.833,"text":"不是不是不是我的意思是說我們現在當務之急是要去找這些光電板引起的污染還有這些光電板有沒有碎裂找不到序號的有沒有根本回收不回來的這才是我們的當務之急不是嗎是是好那這些大型的光電板當然現在還有很多網路上有非常多鄉民啊他們有看到"},{"start":540.263,"end":560.132,"text":"飛到車子裡的啦卡到土裡的啦掉到池塘水裡的還有在樹上他們還說可以行光合作用的這些光電板啊都已經碎裂的一塌糊塗到處都是那每一片有所謂的身分證跟序號嘛我們今天有看到經濟部說可能"},{"start":561.712,"end":570.458,"text":"這個損失是0.4%0.4%請問兩個部門有辦法詳列出這0.4%裡面最後找不到的碎裂的你們找得回來嗎因為我們只知道你是回推0.4%沒有了可是我們不曉得經過一次風災以後沒有辦法修復的或者是序號再也找不到的有多少比例這個數據我們要怎麼樣獲得"},{"start":590.511,"end":610.868,"text":"這一定可以獲得的啦因為我們都可以算的出來大概14.5萬片那當然每一片都有它的一個序號所以到時候就可以出來說到底誰被我回收回來因為等於是每一個面板上面都有貼了一個代碼有一個QR code什麼是出產年月日哪裡製造的都全部都所以你會知道哪一些序號最終沒辦法找回來了"},{"start":611.708,"end":638.806,"text":"對一定可以的那這個數據我們大概多久才會現在就是說像嘉義嘉義可能就是說我們對大型的剛剛那個像新溫的滯洪池我們要他兩個禮拜前兩個禮拜內一定要清掉如果小的話就一個禮拜內然後他要去這個所謂去化廠去把它去化掉所以第一個是那邊第二個是那邊那另外那邊呢大概要花1.5個月但是現場我們希望兩個禮拜內要清除掉"},{"start":639.568,"end":666.986,"text":"好 我們平均我就看了一下數據這個部長也很清楚每年我們平均的颱風大概5到7至8個3到4個登陸的好 如果你們每一次都需要1.5個月統計我會覺得有一點點久不過這次我們希望可以在1.5個月後可以看到這些數據我們才知道這些光電板它的年限本來應該是20到30年所以它多少比例會因為天然的災害而提早被淘汰嗎"},{"start":667.826,"end":684.988,"text":"包委員因為這一次是第一次在嘉義登陸而且是涼到將近快要到16到17級的強震風基本上那個屋頂都被掀開來那那個在餘溫的光電板他用纜繩拉的那就容易斷裂其實屋頂的陸域型的是沒有什麼影響的"},{"start":685.969,"end":705.142,"text":"部長我們還是以防患於未然好嗎這個是您剛其實講得很清楚這個光電板你要回收哪些金屬部分它裡面的材質包括什麼那其實我就是要跟你討論剛剛我們討論的我們先舉裡面最大成分的焊接的鉛好了"},{"start":706.349,"end":730.109,"text":"簽列為國際第一級的高毒性重金屬台灣環保的法規限制含鉛的土壤需要清除喔所以它對人體健康的影響有神經毒性兒童智能發展障礙腎損害長期是還有可能致癌這個是裡面它焊接的主要成分再來它上下這個膜希望水不要滲透進去的浮化的塑料"},{"start":731.21,"end":750.504,"text":"這一些他如果已經掉在荒郊野外經過高溫焚燒產生的代藥芯吸入有高度的毒性也有可能會致癌所以你所以到底所以這就是為什麼我問你有毒還是沒有毒你跟經濟部一定有一個人是錯的不過我現在比較相信你"},{"start":751.284,"end":772.3,"text":"因為這些東西在環境中長期的曝露沒有人把它找回來一定有嘛 很多啊現在網友到處他去爬山或去勘栽他就馬上發現這邊一塊光電管那邊一塊這些東西長期在環境中就是會對我們的土壤還有水質產生毒性那我覺得比起我們前幾個禮拜的質詢我們空屋討論這麼細討論到PM0.1"},{"start":778.704,"end":803.632,"text":"結果對現在這些天災產生的錯誤的能源政策製造出來的污染源是視而不見啦 是為什麼包委員 這個像你說的這個鉛喔我們剛剛今天報告 我禮拜一派同仁去量那其實未檢出 鉛未檢出等於是光電板到的這個滯洪池或餘溫去未檢出鉛 目前的情況是這樣但是你剛剛也有講啊 你說放很久的會"},{"start":804.572,"end":827.077,"text":"對但是這個就需要科學的這個實驗驗證啦那我們過去是沒有做過這樣的東西但是常理都知道例如說我把我的手機放在水裡面泡個五年那當然那個水我們都一定會有一點疑慮嘛對所以為什麼我們希望獲得那個數據因為你一定有一些序號是找不回來的而這些找不回來的序號就是在環境中繼續衍生出污染物啊不是嗎"},{"start":827.877,"end":841.144,"text":"對 如果是這個是現在我們先把它清除完如果後續如果遺失很多的話那當然後續的監控我們都一定要做好 昭緯如果真的遺失很多我們再來排一次專報好嗎好 那接下來我想放一段影片"},{"start":844.464,"end":873.163,"text":"這個是部長您不在三片谷的國內的時候都是民進黨錯誤的能源政策所造成的本來這個山坡地是以種綠荷包鳳梨 水果等等人民但是配合政府的綠能綠電政策把土地租給廠商來開發光電這不是什麼能源轉型這個叫做對土地的背叛對環境的掠奪我們就是因為之前那個50公頃沒有接受環評才會發生這樣子恐怖的事情這邊會列條因為屬於國有土地但經能源主管機關同意者不在環評的限制設置累積面積15公頃以上才需要做環評"},{"start":873.763,"end":874.964,"text":"這個我剛剛聽到你有答覆王玉敏委員了"},{"start":892.19,"end":918.472,"text":"除了15公頃以下還有國營事業的土地還有開發行為如果是附屬的設施只要主管機關認定就免評估剛剛很多委員又加上了一個水域對不對對那你們這個因為我這個已經是您在國外的時候您參加一個研討會的質詢當時次長說會研議會檢討會開會現在已經一個月過去了我也想知道你的進度在哪裡啊"},{"start":921.631,"end":921.852,"text":"我們請我們市長"},{"start":924.042,"end":950.988,"text":"報告人 那個有關研議加研的部分 其實我們內部已經有討論過 那但是因為不修法的情況下 我們可以要求能源署在針對他們免還 認定免還平等 因為我們那個是經能源主管機關同意者不在此限 那他們必須要有他們相關的程序 還有要會商農業部和環保單位 這個我們有要求他們要"},{"start":951.488,"end":976.773,"text":"把它程序要明確化把它訂出來這個是沒有修法的加嚴的部分那如果有修法的部分其實我們跟同學有討論過可以有很多方向那但是初步我們有想說也許就雙主管機關因為原來只有能源主管機關會不會就是連林業主管機關也加進來必須兩者同意才可以免環評甚至是"},{"start":978.086,"end":1007.086,"text":"有很多種情境啊最嚴情境就是這個部分只要有在那個林地的地方全部都要翻屏大家其實蠻擔心的因為下一個颱風又在靠近我們了這個禮拜都看到沿海農業區保育區全部都被這些光電板漂浮的亂七八糟好你說你要跟其他的主管機關我們也只是問進度我剛問進度你到底什麼時候會把它加嚴這也是一般人民想知道的多久以內你會把它加嚴嗎"},{"start":1008.902,"end":1027.421,"text":"我們上次有答覆您就是說基本上如果要涉及那個整體的因為我們今年1月16號才修訂完嘛那我們會並我們環評總體檢的部分一起如果要涉及要修法的部分我們並那個一起檢討一起來處理年底前"},{"start":1028.474,"end":1046.352,"text":"我們今年年底之前應該會到年底到或是明年初之前環兵總體檢會完成那個完成之後我們就會來啟動是不是要修法反正我們年底之前會看到你先加研嘛就是我們先總體檢完我們到底需要怎麼樣改"},{"start":1048.103,"end":1048.363,"text":"1%的光電板?呃"},{"start":1070.427,"end":1091.258,"text":"基本上我們是108年以後都有被我們列管啦108年以前那時候制度是沒有列管的我是去年的3月21在委員會提了臨時提案要求把太陽能光電板列入因回收的項目完備廢棄太陽能板的回收機制你現在那一年了你什麼時候可以把它納入回收機制"},{"start":1096.588,"end":1103.722,"text":"我們這個是在做一個預告 預告是八月預告預計八月預告所以你們會跟"},{"start":1105.607,"end":1129.264,"text":"經濟部因為經濟部有一個特別條例的草案各位報告那我們在光電板要回收部分目前是透過他的那個等過費去收那但是其他有一部分是沒有去透過等過費去收我們就用這個廢清法來做一個處理來要求我就只問彭部長最後一個問題這也是這次從您的報告裡面看出來的"},{"start":1129.904,"end":1154.872,"text":"您其實有預估一個未來光電板淘汰的壽命他們大概20到30年那廢棄物的話呢到121年年回收量1萬片128年10萬片那你那個時候是用天然災害的損壞率0.2到0.5%來估算的但今天的報告是寫說一次風災就0.4%你剛也講登陸的颱風你會想要調整這個數據嗎"},{"start":1159.49,"end":1181.615,"text":"這個我們可以再討論啦 不過報告委員 這個是這次是一個特別的天災然後我們光電板在這個餘溫還有滯洪池上面從來沒有遇過這麼大的過啦所以我是認為我們也可以來檢討這件事情 對我覺得部長你還是體會一下住在家裡的人的心情啦就是大家還是會希望這件事情不要再發生 好嗎好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":810,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（11時9分）謝謝召委。召委，你先坐啦！因為剛剛有感而發，聽到召委在為台電的員工抱屈，也聽了很多委員質詢的內容，本席在這邊也對台電的員工致敬，覺得他們不眠不休地搶救，真的是非常辛苦。可是我們也要強調，這麼多委員問下來，就是錯誤的能源政策，造成我們現在電力系統這樣的脆弱，我希望經濟部可以反省，郭部長今天沒有來，可是之前老員工提醒郭部長錯誤的能源政策時，他在備詢的時候是說：不爽就不要做啊！可以離職啊！他是這樣子講的。這次召委也知道啊！浮台都已經漂到澎湖去了，浮台的殘骸都已經卡在消波塊了，經濟部特別做圖卡說人民不要造謠喔！不要造謠上面有光電板喔！造謠的人我們要報警喔！這相比起來，跟你今天說你要趕到南部去看基層的台電同仁，我覺得情何以堪？你做出來的樣子，跟你今天在這邊說你沒有辦法來答詢的理由，我覺得不堪一擊啦！","剛看了這麼多委員質詢的圖片，我們發現臺南是整排的電線桿倒塌，屋頂掀飛的幾千戶，我現在講的是人命！剛剛一位很辛苦的台電人員OHCA，現在放葉克膜，但是民眾因為一整個禮拜活在黑暗中，有八十幾歲的阿嬤點蠟燭，造成起火，不幸往生；另外一位里長是因為呼吸器斷電，他們已經在黑暗中這樣子過，這不是我們應該要有的啊！經濟部應該要全面檢討你們的能源政策。然而，我們在問這些問題的時候，事發當時有縣長在北歐考察，執政黨委員在大罷免、大繞境，媒體對於臺南的訊息統統都不報，然後我們總統去勘災說什麼？說這不是國軍的工作，說我們要有社會韌性，說這個屋頂你要自己爬上去修啊！民眾問沒水、沒網路、沒電、手機沒有訊號要怎麼生活，他說郭國文委員的手機有訊號啊！我們臺灣人到底是多麼的悲哀，才會用這樣破爛的能源政策來賠命，已經有兩位老人家去世，這是我剛剛聽到這麼多委員質詢最感慨的事情。我現在想先請次長，已經說了浮台……"],["賴次長建信：委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：你好。浮台現在散落得到處都是，你自己也沒辦法預估什麼時候才可以把所有的殘骸全部撈回來。黃國昌委員、陳昭姿委員都說這個就是人民納稅錢所補助的計畫去做的，你說還要先問廠商才可以給我們這個計畫書，這個計畫書早就已經寫好了，現在並不是讓你們在勘災很忙碌的時間，還要生出什麼報告給我們，這個計畫書早就有了，我相信召委也很想看吧？因為召委現在每天都到屏東海岸去看那些浮台到底收完了沒，他預測一個月都收不完，我們是不是還要再排一次專報，或者是質詢？我們想問，這麼基本的計畫書，這個結構性的錯誤中間是不是有什麼弊案？這是用人民的納稅錢補助的計畫，請問這個計畫書你覺得你可以在多久的期限之內得到廠商的許可提供給委員們？"],["賴次長建信：謝謝委員。首先代表台電的員工感謝委員對台電員工的關懷，這第一點。第二點，有關於屏東案場我們的資料，第一個，所有浮到海岸邊的部分要清理，剛剛也有聽到海委會到海下去看有沒有光電板，在此跟委員、跟大家說明，在這一次丹娜絲颱風之前，光電板都已經移除了，我們現在是看到浮台的部分，對浮台部分當然會即刻清理，除此之外，委員所關心的資料部分，因為這裡面不但有涉及到公共利益，也涉及到個人資料的保護，所以我們需要依照法規的規定來處理，我們已經……"],["陳委員菁徽：次長，不好意思，我要打斷你，我們只有兩個問題……"],["賴次長建信：大概是十天之內，我們要求廠商給我們一個回復。"],["陳委員菁徽：第一個問題你已經答復了，就是十天之內，你可以獲得廠商的回復，決定要不要給我們計畫書，也有可能我們沒有計畫書，對嗎？"],["賴次長建信：它涉及到個資的部分、公司營利的部分。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以十天後我們就知道有或沒有。第二個問題，你剛剛提到的，因為你們今天的報告都有寫，你們會儘速把這些浮台全部打撈回來，消波塊也會處理乾淨，請問期限是多久？因為召委也很想知道。"],["賴次長建信：事實上，我們在7月11號之前已經把大部分的都清理了，但是隨著海浪、風浪的影響，這些浮台（HDPE）包括有一些細部的設施，可能還有飄流到其他海岸的地方，我們會請能源署要求廠商確實逐一的巡點完之後……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以兩個問題都沒有答案？"],["賴次長建信：沒有，現在都已經清得差不多了。"],["陳委員菁徽：但是多久以內清完，你還不知道啦？"],["賴次長建信：屏東縣政府已經有跟它限期了。"],["陳委員菁徽：會繼續裁罰，好。次長，您請回座。接下來我們請環境部部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，有一個年輕人會玩的遊戲叫作狼人殺，就是找出到底是誰在說謊。這個是風災之後，經濟部說受損的光電板一直在清運，無毒、不會造成污染，但同一天或是前後兩天，您說光電模組含有金屬與化學物質，若沒有妥善清除處理，恐流入土壤和水體，引發長期的污染疑慮。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們有跟那位記者表示不一樣的意見，因為我們有一個新聞稿說得很清楚，我們沒有這樣說。"],["陳委員菁徽：是隔天的新聞稿嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：他加了一些他自己的看法進去。當然任何的儀器或是電器都有金屬在裡面，例如我們的手機，所以如果泡到水，長久以來對環境都是不好的。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以其實您覺得經濟部的這張圖卡沒有寫得夠清楚，對嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：左邊是左邊，但是我說的是右邊，你看右邊那張圖。"],["陳委員菁徽：因為你剛剛有講，你說長期浸泡在水裡或是土壤裡還是會有其影響。"],["彭部長啓明：就是任何的東西凡走過必留痕跡……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以它絕對不是無毒對不對？它不是無毒。"],["彭部長啓明：基本上它不是有害的廢棄物，那至於有沒有毒是一個風險跟濃度的關係。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以它不是無毒？"],["彭部長啓明：目前我們量到現在沒有毒，但是如果放了很久，例如說銅或是銀，如果放很久很久，可能幾年，那當然一定會慢慢地影響到水質。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，了解，沒關係，等一下我們來討論。再來，你隔天又有另外一個說法，說太陽能模組主要是鋁框、玻璃、EVA膜、發電元件，並未被列為有害廢棄物，這個你剛剛也講了，還提醒外界勿混淆視聽。這個我前面已經講得很清楚了，已經有人因此而喪命，可是經濟部在發圖卡叫大家不要造謠，然後你叫大家不要混淆視聽。"],["彭部長啓明：不是，委員，是什麼喪命？因為太陽光電板喪命嗎？"],["陳委員菁徽：不是，我的意思是說，我們現在當務之急是要去找這些光電板引起的污染，還有這些光電板有沒有碎裂、找不到序號的，有沒有根本回收不回來的，這才是我們的當務之急不是嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，這些大型的光電板現在還有很多，網路上有非常多鄉民有看到，飛到車子裡的、卡到土裡的、掉到池塘、水裡的，還有在樹上，他們還說可以行光合作用的，這些光電板都已經碎裂得一塌糊塗，到處都是，每一片有所謂的身分證跟序號，我們今天有看到經濟部說可能損失是0.4%，請問兩個部門有辦法詳列出這0.4%裡面最後找不到的、碎裂的，你們找得回來嗎？因為我們只知道你是回推0.4%沒有了，可是我們不曉得經過一次風災以後，沒有辦法修復的或者是序號再也找不到的有多少比例，這個數據我們要怎麼樣獲得？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這一定可以獲得的，因為我們都可以算得出來大概14.5萬片，當然每一片都有它的序號，所以到時候就可以找出來到底誰被我回收回來，因為等於是每一個面板上面都有貼了一個代碼，有一個QR Code，出產年月日、哪裡製造的全部都有。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你會知道哪一些序號最終沒辦法找回來？"],["彭部長啓明：對，一定可以。"],["陳委員菁徽：那這個數據我們大概多久才會有？"],["彭部長啓明：現在像嘉義可能就是……我們對大型的，像新塭的滯洪池，我們要它兩個禮拜內一定要清掉，如果小的話就一個禮拜內，然後它要去去化廠把它去化掉，所以第一個是那邊，第二個是那邊，另外那邊大概要花1.5個月，但是現場我們希望兩個禮拜內要清除掉。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我看了一下數據，部長也很清楚，每年我們平均的颱風大概5到7至8個。"],["彭部長啓明：3到4個登陸的。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，如果你們每一次都需要1.5個月統計，我會覺得有一點點久，不過這次我們希望可以在1.5個月後看到這些數據，我們才知道這些光電板的年限本來應該是20到30年，然後它會有多少比例因為天然災害而提早被淘汰。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為這次是第一次在嘉義登陸，而且是量到將近快要到16到17級的強陣風，基本上屋頂都被掀開來，在魚塭的光電板，它用纜繩拉的就容易斷裂，其實屋頂的、陸域型的是沒有什麼影響。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，我們防患於未然好嗎？您剛剛其實講得很清楚，光電板你要回收哪些金屬部分，它裡面的材質包括什麼，其實我就是要跟你討論剛剛我們討論的，我們先舉裡面最大成分的焊接的鉛好了，鉛列為國際第一級高毒性重金屬，臺灣環保的法規限制含鉛的土壤需要清除，它對人體健康的影響有神經毒性、兒童智能發展障礙、腎損害，長期甚至還有可能致癌，這個是它焊接的主要成分。再來它上下這個膜，希望水不要滲透進去的氟化塑料，這一些如果已經掉在荒郊野外，經過高溫焚燒產生的戴奧辛，吸入有高度的毒性，也有可能會致癌。所以這就是為什麼我問你有毒還是沒有毒，你跟經濟部一定有一個人是錯的，不過我現在比較相信你，因為這些東西在環境中長期的暴露，沒有人把它找回來，一定有嘛！很多，現在網友去爬山或去勘災，他就馬上發現這邊一塊光電板，那邊一塊，這些東西長期在環境中就是會對我們的土壤還有水質產生毒性，我覺得比起我們前幾個禮拜的質詢，空污討論這麼細，討論到PM 0.1，結果對現在這些天災，因為錯誤的能源政策製造出來的污染源是視而不見，是為什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，像你說的鉛，今天的報告……我禮拜一派同仁去量，其實鉛未檢出，等於是光電板掉到的滯洪池或魚塭去未檢出鉛，目前的情況是這樣。"],["陳委員菁徽：但是你剛剛也有講，你說放很久的會。"],["彭部長啓明：對，但是這個就需要科學的實驗驗證，我們過去是沒有做過這樣的東西，但是常理都知道，例如說我把我的手機放在水裡面泡個5年……"],["陳委員菁徽：家電。"],["彭部長啓明：當然那個水我們一定會有一點疑慮。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，所以為什麼我們希望獲得那個數據，因為你一定有一些序號是找不回來的，而這些找不回來的序號就是在環境中繼續衍生出污染物，不是嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對，現在我們是先把它清除完，後續如果遺失很多的話，當然後續的監控我們就一定要做。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，召委，如果真的遺失很多，我們再來排一次專報好嗎？接下來我想放一段影片，這個是部長不在國內的時候的事情。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員菁徽：這個我剛剛聽到你有答復王育敏委員了，除了15公頃以下，還有國營事業的土地以及開發行為如果是附屬的設施，只要主管機關認定就免評估，剛剛很多委員又加上了一個水域，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：因為這個是您在國外參加一個研討會的時候我做的質詢，當時次長說會研議、會檢討、會開會，現在已經一個月過去了，我也想知道你的進度在哪裡？"],["彭部長啓明：我請我們司長。"],["徐司長淑芷：報告委員，有關研議加嚴的部分，其實我們內部已經有討論過，在不修法的情況下，我們可以要求能源署針對他們認定免環評，因為那個是經能源主管機關同意者不在此限，他們必須要有他們相關的程序，還有要會商農業部和環保單位，我們有要求他們要把程序明確化，把它訂出來，這是沒有修法的加嚴的部分；如果有修法的部分，其實我們跟同仁有討論過，可以有很多方向，但是初步我們有想說也許就雙主管機關，因為原來只有能源主管機關，會不會就是連林業主管機關也加進來，必須兩者同意才可以免環評，甚至是有很多種情境，最嚴的情境就是這個部分只要有在林地的地方全部都要環評。"],["陳委員菁徽：大家其實滿擔心的，因為下一個颱風又在靠近我們了，這個禮拜都看到沿海農業區、保育區全部都被這些光電板漂浮得亂七八糟，你說你要跟其他的主管機關……我們也只是問進度，我剛剛問進度，你到底什麼時候會把它加嚴，這也是一般人民想知道的，多久以內你會把它加嚴？"],["徐司長淑芷：報告委員，我們上次有答復您，基本上如果要涉及整體的，因為我們今年1月16號才修訂完，我們會併環評總體檢的部分一起，如果涉及要修法的部分，我們併那個一起檢討、一起來處理。"],["陳委員菁徽：年底以前？"],["彭部長啓明：我們今年年底之前，應該會到年底或是明年初之前，環評總體檢會完成，那個完成之後，我們就會來啟動是不是要修法，做這樣的……"],["陳委員菁徽：反正我們年底之前會看到你們先加嚴，對吧？"],["彭部長啓明：我們先總體檢完，看到底需要怎麼改。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。這個我很久以前就已經做過臨提了，你也知道問題在哪裡，如果沒有法源，其實你們現在可以管理的只有1%的光電板，對吧？"],["彭部長啓明：1%的光電板？"],["陳委員菁徽：對，你們現在是可以回收，可是沒有法源可以管理它。"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，108年以後都有被我們列管，而108年以前……"],["陳委員菁徽：對啊！"],["彭部長啓明：那時候的制度是沒有列管。"],["陳委員菁徽：我是去年3月21日在委員會提了臨時提案，要求把太陽能光電板列入應回收的項目，完備廢棄太陽能板的回收機制，現在過了一年了，你們什麼時候可以把它納入回收機制？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：我們這個是預計8月預告。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你們會跟經濟部研議？因為經濟部也有一個特別條例的草案。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，我們在光電板回收的部分目前是透過躉購費率去收，但其他有一部分是沒有透過躉購費率去收，我們就用廢清法來做處理、來要求。"],["陳委員菁徽：我就只問彭部長最後一個問題，這也是這次從你的報告裡面看出來的，你其實有預估未來光電板淘汰的壽命，大概是20到30年，廢棄物到121年的年回收量是1萬片、128年是10萬片，你那個時候是用天然災害損壞率的0.2%到0.5%來估算，但今天的報告是寫一次風災就0.4%，你剛也講是因為登陸的颱風，那麼你會想要調整這個數據嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：這個我們可以再討論，不過報告委員，這次是特別的天災，光電板在魚塭及滯洪池上面從來沒有遇過這麼大的天災，所以我認為我們也可以來檢討這件事情。"],["陳委員菁徽：我覺得部長還是體會一下住在嘉義的人的心情，大家還是會希望這件事情不要再發生，好嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員、謝謝部長。","接續請黃秀芳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":238,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-20","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","涂權吉","陳菁徽","黃秀芳","林淑芬","王正旭","黃國昌","楊曜","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳冠廷","陳瑩","盧縣一","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2025-07-16"],"gazette_id":"1146701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部部長、海洋委員會、農業部、內政部、國防部、金融監督管理委員會針\n對「光電設施對環境影響情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146701_00003"}}}