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\"start\": 779.596, \"end\": 779.796, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 779.796, \"end\": 779.816, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 779.816, \"end\": 779.976, \"score\": 0.734}, {\"word\": \"油\", \"start\": 779.976, \"end\": 780.156, \"score\": 0.739}, {\"word\": \"辛\", \"start\": 780.156, \"end\": 780.317, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"苦\", \"start\": 780.317, \"end\": 780.457, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 780.457, \"end\": 780.477, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,646 --> 00:00:13,650\n我們需要一個正確的、清楚的法治教育\n\n2\n00:00:28,574 --> 00:00:53,203\n這個不管是複密或是許次啊今天有我們的在野黨的委員剛剛在其他的委員會質詢語出驚人啊他說我們當然對於台電的理性員工他因為救災而大家全民為他集氣但是剛剛最一個好消息他慢慢的恢復心跳了所以全民一起為我們辛苦的台電人員\n\n3\n00:00:54,123 --> 00:01:15,503\n給他最高的祝福,希望他能夠挺過難關,能夠早日康復但是呢,非常遺憾在野黨的委員,剛剛在未還委員會語出驚人他說台灣葉克摩最厲害的是柯文哲醫師所以呢,不可以把柯文哲關著,要把柯文哲放出去救台電員工才對啊\n\n4\n00:01:16,864 --> 00:01:38,947\n台電董事長去醫院幹嘛經濟部郭部長去醫院幹嘛要把柯文哲放出去去救台電員工才對我們需要一個正確的法治教育如果說醫生犯罪不能關因為他要救人那一樣立法委員犯罪不能關\n\n5\n00:01:39,895 --> 00:01:52,296\n因為他要去選民服務有存在這種謬論嗎來我們法界代表推派一位等一下呂次長你可能也想要回應一下來看是徐次好了\n\n6\n00:01:54,926 --> 00:02:23,207\n好委員好你認同這種說法嗎我們需要給國人正確的法治教育跟委員報告我們尊重陳委員的發言任何人都可以講他想講的話但是因為他所提到的柯市長他現在因為還有其他的因素在羈押中目前沒有辦法是不可能也不應該有法律的程序他是被告的嫌疑人來呃呂次長\n\n7\n00:02:24,594 --> 00:02:43,529\n科醫師現在可以出去執業嗎報告委員這個我們也是如同市長剛剛說我覺得這個我們尊重陳委員的一個高見但是這個法有名文也有相關的規定那我們其實這法治國家就應該按照法治國家的程序來進行以上謝謝\n\n8\n00:02:44,890 --> 00:02:47,693\n我們同樣的面對這樣的立委質詢我們要清楚的向國人法治教育否則呢今天可能網路上社群上又有很多亂帶風向的作為我們依循法治國家任何的被害嫌疑人當然有他的司法人權\n\n9\n00:02:59,867 --> 00:03:21,364\n可以透過任何方式去捍衛他的司法正義但是循程序中他現在在演壓中而且也剛開完演壓廷我們要相信司法檢調人員的獨立辦案所以並不存在柯文哲的葉克膜很厲害所以現在要救台電員工要把柯文哲放出去\n\n10\n00:03:22,285 --> 00:03:36,752\n我們也再次呼籲希望讓台電員工有更好的職場作業的安全我們應當一起來支持台電必要的預算來強化國家的電網韌性來強化優化人民的供電安全好謝謝下一頁\n\n11\n00:03:37,748 --> 00:04:00,601\n今天質詢的主題呢我們針對當然土城的不幸事件讓我們通案來從個案來檢視通案的制度我剛剛有看到黃國昌委員的槌尋他說違反保護令的裁判情形呢他恐怕是認為過輕啦因為拘役的七成三六個月以下有期徒刑是22.8%但是整個定罪率是來到97%嘛對不對\n\n12\n00:04:06,704 --> 00:04:17,369\n那我另外具體的統計了近十年2015到2024家暴案件執行家暴案件最終經過司法的程序去偵辦最終的有罪判決\n\n13\n00:04:21,007 --> 00:04:39,858\n有68.75%這十年來居易是四成六個月以下是16%當然也有無罪的那也有相當高的比例27%是不受理的因為可能有人撤銷撤回或是和解嘛\n\n14\n00:04:40,658 --> 00:04:57,414\n所以說如果就這個數字來看可能會誤導了國人認為說即使有保護令的制度即使有違反保護令罪即使我們對於家暴案件也立了專法大家投入來偵辦\n\n15\n00:04:59,136 --> 00:05:25,350\n但是我不希望因為家暴真的是清官很難去定家內事他還是要依循他犯罪的事實而且我們要尊重司法個案的查辦每個case狀況不一樣而且我們要符合憲法23條的避利原則我們更要符合罪行相當的原則重罪不能輕放但小罪也不能重罰\n\n16\n00:05:26,671 --> 00:05:50,557\n這是有憲法的比例原則跟罪行相當的原則所以我是希望說我們的案非常遺憾我們都不希望有任何的家暴案件更不容許發生這種在保護令期間就被傷害了犧牲寶貴的生命但是不要用極端的個案以為重罰重罰重罰就可以了事我的論點你們都同意嗎\n\n17\n00:05:51,946 --> 00:05:55,698\n好下一頁你們三個都站得很遠欸那誰代表一下\n\n18\n00:05:57,161 --> 00:06:23,875\n來呂氏你要說嗎不是我簡單我簡單回應那個委員我們其實前幾天有開一個那個檢討重大案件檢討會議其實有委員也有提到就是說其實有時候你用這個重法你用這個重案比如說它你該羈押當然要羈押可是如果不該羈押你違反比例原則其實反而會刺激到這一個整個這一個加害者的情緒嘛它以後就導入也許有人想要挽回家庭\n\n19\n00:06:24,455 --> 00:06:46,009\n所以我就這裡面當然就是確實有很多面向要考慮我稍後在政策會讓你回應我們的主席也應該能夠理解所以我要說亂世用重點就對了嗎亂世用重點的下一句話叫做攻心才是上策也就是防止家暴\n\n20\n00:06:46,869 --> 00:07:00,983\n我的看法事前的防範防治絕對是重於事後的重罰所以事前的防範是什麼就要從制度下手尤其是你們7月14號的緊急擴大會議我們訂定了針對高風險的個案要啟動安全的計畫而且呢必須是跨系統的協作\n\n21\n00:07:11,753 --> 00:07:37,469\n也就是不是只有衛福部的事也不是只有社政機關的事更不是只有警察機關的事也不是推給司法機關就能了事所以民團的呼籲我相信你們都聽進去了高風險個案的個別化安全計畫的跨系統協作而不是單一機制來單打獨鬥\n\n22\n00:07:38,730 --> 00:07:46,844\n我說的單一機制包括站在眼前的呂次長衛福部常常被究責但是這是一個跨系統的協作所以說呢下一頁\n\n23\n00:07:50,678 --> 00:08:12,116\n這是你們7月14號全面性跨部會檢討精進的幾個五大結論所以最重要的是不是就是你認為這其實對我長期關心的人來講我會覺得很多都是我們一再強調的只是執行要更落實你有沒有認為哪一項是我們新的指引要跟國人報告\n\n24\n00:08:13,777 --> 00:08:38,009\n報告委員非常感謝委員對於我們推動小組的關注我們這五個大重點裡面其實剛剛法務部徐市長還有特別談到未來在有關保護令的核發的部分其實我們一定要有一個警政這邊的資料還有我們社工這邊的資料一定要提供更詳實的一個information要不然其實老實說我們檢察官其實老實說也非常辛苦他們也不可能\n\n25\n00:08:38,749 --> 00:08:54,583\n他們一定要看這個相關的這個information所以這個是我們未來在這個部分一定要來強化的部分也就是說對於施暴者他的進一步的data譬如說他是不是有犯罪前科他是不是有精神\n\n26\n00:08:55,463 --> 00:09:09,935\n相關的疾病他是不是有酗酒吸毒各方面會讓他更成為施以暴力在保護令的執行期間的那個危險因子嘛所以這需要跨系統的協作來下一頁\n\n27\n00:09:11,308 --> 00:09:31,907\n好那就回到前一頁那我作為立法委員我過去在台北市議會我也分享一個我當時催生的一個機制可以讓我們的警政系統來協助我們今天內政部副署長也在因為我們知道我們在地方都會每一季都會開地方的治安會議那治安會報呢我幾乎當議員的期間我都會去\n\n28\n00:09:36,872 --> 00:10:05,425\n治安會報就是包括我們的各地的分局譬如說我在北投分局的治安會報士林分局的治安會報然後會邀請我們所有的派出所的主管所長會邀請我們所有的里長我們地方的重要人士包括民意代表我當時就催生了一件事情也就是說在治安會報的時候來我們警政署的代表治安會報的時候其實有幾個案類是每一次都要跟市民報告的你知道哪些案類嗎\n\n29\n00:10:07,011 --> 00:10:10,760\n就是刑事案件重大刑事案件哪些類竊盜\n\n30\n00:10:12,899 --> 00:10:25,661\n重大的刑案像殺人案或者搶奪或者是像詐騙或是竊盜等等都有那家暴的部分如果家防中心一般來說也有參加所以有個我想要副所長報告當時我當台北市議員十多年前我每一次參加治安會議我發現這是一個很好的機制每一次的治安會議你都被人家所以可以告訴大家我們的轄區內以北投區這一季發生了幾起竊盜案\n\n31\n00:10:41,844 --> 00:10:59,516\n發生了幾起刑事案件傷害案件發生了幾起詐騙案詐騙案是現在新加入的data讓大家都能夠互相有警示當時我就要求把家暴案列進去因為立定的協防最知道說我們這區裡面可能有已經有家暴案發生的家庭或者是潛在的高風險的家庭唯有透過各地治安會議一計一次\n\n32\n00:11:11,624 --> 00:11:20,990\n所有的里长都在领长也会参与的时候让他知道这一次这一季我们北投区发生了几起家暴案\n\n33\n00:11:22,349 --> 00:11:44,850\n大家就會啟動了那個預警的機制大家就會互相的通報互相的協力因為連治安會議也會有地方的這個像我們的關渡醫院啦我們的地區醫院也都一起來參與那是一個很好的場域針對鄰里民政系統、社政系統、衛政系統跟警政系統的協力\n\n34\n00:11:47,052 --> 00:12:04,702\n在我那時候要求之後,台北市開始啟動了把家暴案類成為每一季的治安會議的追蹤、管考的項目而且要跟所有的社區參與者報告跟說明我不知道這樣的經驗在台灣有沒有被施行、被複製還是您認為我們可以來推動?還是已經上路了?因為台北市一定要齁,郝龍斌的時候是我催生的時候,那時候我早上起床走\n\n35\n00:12:12,623 --> 00:12:36,064\n後面柯文哲料就逃逃啊沒照去趕走我不知道現在的狀況是什麼我認為這是一個全國可以來推動的委員這個提的部分是我們警察局都會在社區辦理這個社區治安座談會但有沒有列入交報案現在台北市有在實施那我們會通知其他的縣市也可以來你認為這樣是不是一個好的方式這就是社區協防社區協防讓社區了解他們的治安的狀況\n\n36\n00:12:39,687 --> 00:13:00,477\n過去人家說不要介入人家家務室但是現在是我們一起來當管家婆我們要繼續來雞婆為了社區的安寧為了我們所有的家庭家庭大家好生活大家安全大家做回來做管家婆好不好所以我希望這是一個好的機制可以推行到全國好不好大家加油辛苦了謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9646\t13650\t我們需要一個正確的、清楚的法治教育\n28574\t53203\t這個不管是複密或是許次啊今天有我們的在野黨的委員剛剛在其他的委員會質詢語出驚人啊他說我們當然對於台電的理性員工他因為救災而大家全民為他集氣但是剛剛最一個好消息他慢慢的恢復心跳了所以全民一起為我們辛苦的台電人員\n54123\t75503\t給他最高的祝福,希望他能夠挺過難關,能夠早日康復但是呢,非常遺憾在野黨的委員,剛剛在未還委員會語出驚人他說台灣葉克摩最厲害的是柯文哲醫師所以呢,不可以把柯文哲關著,要把柯文哲放出去救台電員工才對啊\n76864\t98947\t台電董事長去醫院幹嘛經濟部郭部長去醫院幹嘛要把柯文哲放出去去救台電員工才對我們需要一個正確的法治教育如果說醫生犯罪不能關因為他要救人那一樣立法委員犯罪不能關\n99895\t112296\t因為他要去選民服務有存在這種謬論嗎來 我們法界代表推派一位等一下呂次長你可能也想要回應一下來 看是徐次好了\n114926\t143207\t好委員好你認同這種說法嗎我們需要給國人正確的法治教育跟委員報告我們尊重陳委員的發言任何人都可以講他想講的話但是因為他所提到的柯市長他現在因為還有其他的因素在羈押中目前沒有辦法是不可能也不應該有法律的程序他是被告的嫌疑人來呃呂次長\n144594\t163529\t科醫師現在可以出去執業嗎報告委員 這個我們也是如同市長剛剛說我覺得這個我們尊重陳委員的一個高見但是這個法有名文也有相關的規定那我們其實這法治國家就應該按照法治國家的程序來進行以上 謝謝\n164890\t167693\t我們同樣的面對這樣的立委質詢我們要清楚的向國人法治教育否則呢今天可能網路上社群上又有很多亂帶風向的作為我們依循法治國家任何的被害嫌疑人當然有他的司法人權\n179867\t201364\t可以透過任何方式去捍衛他的司法正義但是循程序中他現在在演壓中而且也剛開完演壓廷我們要相信司法檢調人員的獨立辦案所以並不存在柯文哲的葉克膜很厲害所以現在要救台電員工要把柯文哲放出去\n202285\t216752\t我們也再次呼籲希望讓台電員工有更好的職場作業的安全我們應當一起來支持台電必要的預算來強化國家的電網韌性來強化優化人民的供電安全好 謝謝 下一頁\n217748\t240601\t今天質詢的主題呢我們針對當然土城的不幸事件讓我們通案來從個案來檢視通案的制度我剛剛有看到黃國昌委員的槌尋他說違反保護令的裁判情形呢他恐怕是認為過輕啦因為拘役的七成三六個月以下有期徒刑是22.8%但是整個定罪率是來到97%嘛對不對\n246704\t257369\t那我另外具體的統計了近十年2015到2024家暴案件執行家暴案件最終經過司法的程序去偵辦最終的有罪判決\n261007\t279858\t有68.75%這十年來居易是四成六個月以下是16%當然也有無罪的那也有相當高的比例27%是不受理的因為可能有人撤銷撤回或是和解嘛\n280658\t297414\t所以說如果就這個數字來看可能會誤導了國人認為說即使有保護令的制度即使有違反保護令罪即使我們對於家暴案件也立了專法大家投入來偵辦\n299136\t325350\t但是我不希望因為家暴真的是清官很難去定家內事他還是要依循他犯罪的事實而且我們要尊重司法個案的查辦每個case狀況不一樣而且我們要符合憲法23條的避利原則我們更要符合罪行相當的原則重罪不能輕放但小罪也不能重罰\n326671\t350557\t這是有憲法的比例原則跟罪行相當的原則所以我是希望說我們的案非常遺憾我們都不希望有任何的家暴案件更不容許發生這種在保護令期間就被傷害了犧牲寶貴的生命但是不要用極端的個案以為重罰重罰重罰就可以了事我的論點你們都同意嗎\n351946\t355698\t好 下一頁你們三個都站得很遠欸那誰代表一下\n357161\t383875\t來 呂氏你要說嗎不是 我簡單 我簡單回應那個委員我們其實前幾天有開一個那個檢討 重大案件檢討會議其實有委員也有提到就是說其實有時候你用這個重法你用這個重案 比如說它你該羈押當然要羈押 可是如果不該羈押你違反比例原則 其實反而會刺激到這一個整個 這一個加害者的情緒嘛 它以後就導入 也許有人想要挽回家庭\n384455\t406009\t所以我就這裡面當然就是確實有很多面向要考慮我稍後在政策會讓你回應我們的主席也應該能夠理解所以我要說亂世用重點就對了嗎亂世用重點的下一句話叫做攻心才是上策也就是防止家暴\n406869\t420983\t我的看法 事前的防範防治絕對是重於事後的重罰所以事前的防範是什麼就要從制度下手尤其是你們7月14號的緊急擴大會議我們訂定了針對高風險的個案要啟動安全的計畫而且呢 必須是跨系統的協作\n431753\t457469\t也就是不是只有衛福部的事也不是只有社政機關的事更不是只有警察機關的事也不是推給司法機關就能了事所以民團的呼籲我相信你們都聽進去了高風險個案的個別化安全計畫的跨系統協作而不是單一機制來單打獨鬥\n458730\t466844\t我說的單一機制包括站在眼前的呂次長衛福部常常被究責但是這是一個跨系統的協作所以說呢下一頁\n470678\t492116\t這是你們7月14號全面性跨部會檢討精進的幾個五大結論所以最重要的是不是就是你認為這其實對我長期關心的人來講我會覺得很多都是我們一再強調的只是執行要更落實你有沒有認為哪一項是我們新的指引要跟國人報告\n493777\t518009\t報告委員非常感謝委員對於我們推動小組的關注我們這五個大重點裡面其實剛剛法務部徐市長還有特別談到未來在有關保護令的核發的部分其實我們一定要有一個警政這邊的資料還有我們社工這邊的資料一定要提供更詳實的一個information要不然其實老實說我們檢察官其實老實說也非常辛苦他們也不可能\n518749\t534583\t他們一定要看這個相關的這個information所以這個是我們未來在這個部分一定要來強化的部分也就是說對於施暴者他的進一步的data譬如說他是不是有犯罪前科他是不是有精神\n535463\t549935\t相關的疾病他是不是有酗酒吸毒各方面會讓他更成為施以暴力在保護令的執行期間的那個危險因子嘛所以這需要跨系統的協作來 下一頁\n551308\t571907\t好 那就回到前一頁那我作為立法委員我過去在台北市議會我也分享一個我當時催生的一個機制可以讓我們的警政系統來協助我們今天內政部副署長也在因為我們知道我們在地方都會每一季都會開地方的治安會議那治安會報呢我幾乎當議員的期間我都會去\n576872\t605425\t治安會報就是包括我們的各地的分局譬如說我在北投分局的治安會報士林分局的治安會報然後會邀請我們所有的派出所的主管所長會邀請我們所有的里長我們地方的重要人士包括民意代表我當時就催生了一件事情也就是說在治安會報的時候來我們警政署的代表治安會報的時候其實有幾個案類是每一次都要跟市民報告的你知道哪些案類嗎\n607011\t610760\t就是刑事案件重大刑事案件哪些類 竊盜\n612899\t625661\t重大的刑案像殺人案或者搶奪或者是像詐騙或是竊盜等等都有那家暴的部分如果家防中心一般來說也有參加所以有個我想要副所長報告當時我當台北市議員十多年前我每一次參加治安會議我發現這是一個很好的機制每一次的治安會議你都被人家所以可以告訴大家我們的轄區內以北投區這一季發生了幾起竊盜案\n641844\t659516\t發生了幾起刑事案件傷害案件發生了幾起詐騙案詐騙案是現在新加入的data讓大家都能夠互相有警示當時我就要求把家暴案列進去因為立定的協防最知道說我們這區裡面可能有已經有家暴案發生的家庭或者是潛在的高風險的家庭唯有透過各地治安會議一計一次\n671624\t680990\t所有的里长都在 领长也会参与的时候让他知道这一次 这一季我们北投区发生了几起家暴案\n682349\t704850\t大家就會啟動了那個預警的機制大家就會互相的通報互相的協力因為連治安會議也會有地方的這個像我們的關渡醫院啦我們的地區醫院也都一起來參與那是一個很好的場域針對鄰里民政系統、社政系統、衛政系統跟警政系統的協力\n707052\t724702\t在我那時候要求之後,台北市開始啟動了把家暴案類成為每一季的治安會議的追蹤、管考的項目而且要跟所有的社區參與者報告跟說明我不知道這樣的經驗在台灣有沒有被施行、被複製還是您認為我們可以來推動?還是已經上路了?因為台北市一定要齁,郝龍斌的時候是我催生的時候,那時候我早上起床走\n732623\t756064\t後面柯文哲料就逃逃啊 沒照去趕走我不知道現在的狀況是什麼我認為這是一個全國可以來推動的委員這個提的部分是我們警察局都會在社區辦理這個社區治安座談會但有沒有列入交報案現在台北市有在實施那我們會通知其他的縣市也可以來你認為這樣是不是一個好的方式這就是社區協防社區協防讓社區了解他們的治安的狀況\n759687\t780477\t過去人家說不要介入人家家務室但是現在是我們一起來當管家婆我們要繼續來雞婆為了社區的安寧為了我們所有的家庭家庭 大家好生活 大家安全大家做回來做管家婆 好不好所以我希望這是一個好的機制可以推行到全國 好不好大家加油 辛苦了 謝謝\n","txt":"我們需要一個正確的、清楚的法治教育\n這個不管是複密或是許次啊今天有我們的在野黨的委員剛剛在其他的委員會質詢語出驚人啊他說我們當然對於台電的理性員工他因為救災而大家全民為他集氣但是剛剛最一個好消息他慢慢的恢復心跳了所以全民一起為我們辛苦的台電人員\n給他最高的祝福,希望他能夠挺過難關,能夠早日康復但是呢,非常遺憾在野黨的委員,剛剛在未還委員會語出驚人他說台灣葉克摩最厲害的是柯文哲醫師所以呢,不可以把柯文哲關著,要把柯文哲放出去救台電員工才對啊\n台電董事長去醫院幹嘛經濟部郭部長去醫院幹嘛要把柯文哲放出去去救台電員工才對我們需要一個正確的法治教育如果說醫生犯罪不能關因為他要救人那一樣立法委員犯罪不能關\n因為他要去選民服務有存在這種謬論嗎來 我們法界代表推派一位等一下呂次長你可能也想要回應一下來 看是徐次好了\n好委員好你認同這種說法嗎我們需要給國人正確的法治教育跟委員報告我們尊重陳委員的發言任何人都可以講他想講的話但是因為他所提到的柯市長他現在因為還有其他的因素在羈押中目前沒有辦法是不可能也不應該有法律的程序他是被告的嫌疑人來呃呂次長\n科醫師現在可以出去執業嗎報告委員 這個我們也是如同市長剛剛說我覺得這個我們尊重陳委員的一個高見但是這個法有名文也有相關的規定那我們其實這法治國家就應該按照法治國家的程序來進行以上 謝謝\n我們同樣的面對這樣的立委質詢我們要清楚的向國人法治教育否則呢今天可能網路上社群上又有很多亂帶風向的作為我們依循法治國家任何的被害嫌疑人當然有他的司法人權\n可以透過任何方式去捍衛他的司法正義但是循程序中他現在在演壓中而且也剛開完演壓廷我們要相信司法檢調人員的獨立辦案所以並不存在柯文哲的葉克膜很厲害所以現在要救台電員工要把柯文哲放出去\n我們也再次呼籲希望讓台電員工有更好的職場作業的安全我們應當一起來支持台電必要的預算來強化國家的電網韌性來強化優化人民的供電安全好 謝謝 下一頁\n今天質詢的主題呢我們針對當然土城的不幸事件讓我們通案來從個案來檢視通案的制度我剛剛有看到黃國昌委員的槌尋他說違反保護令的裁判情形呢他恐怕是認為過輕啦因為拘役的七成三六個月以下有期徒刑是22.8%但是整個定罪率是來到97%嘛對不對\n那我另外具體的統計了近十年2015到2024家暴案件執行家暴案件最終經過司法的程序去偵辦最終的有罪判決\n有68.75%這十年來居易是四成六個月以下是16%當然也有無罪的那也有相當高的比例27%是不受理的因為可能有人撤銷撤回或是和解嘛\n所以說如果就這個數字來看可能會誤導了國人認為說即使有保護令的制度即使有違反保護令罪即使我們對於家暴案件也立了專法大家投入來偵辦\n但是我不希望因為家暴真的是清官很難去定家內事他還是要依循他犯罪的事實而且我們要尊重司法個案的查辦每個case狀況不一樣而且我們要符合憲法23條的避利原則我們更要符合罪行相當的原則重罪不能輕放但小罪也不能重罰\n這是有憲法的比例原則跟罪行相當的原則所以我是希望說我們的案非常遺憾我們都不希望有任何的家暴案件更不容許發生這種在保護令期間就被傷害了犧牲寶貴的生命但是不要用極端的個案以為重罰重罰重罰就可以了事我的論點你們都同意嗎\n好 下一頁你們三個都站得很遠欸那誰代表一下\n來 呂氏你要說嗎不是 我簡單 我簡單回應那個委員我們其實前幾天有開一個那個檢討 重大案件檢討會議其實有委員也有提到就是說其實有時候你用這個重法你用這個重案 比如說它你該羈押當然要羈押 可是如果不該羈押你違反比例原則 其實反而會刺激到這一個整個 這一個加害者的情緒嘛 它以後就導入 也許有人想要挽回家庭\n所以我就這裡面當然就是確實有很多面向要考慮我稍後在政策會讓你回應我們的主席也應該能夠理解所以我要說亂世用重點就對了嗎亂世用重點的下一句話叫做攻心才是上策也就是防止家暴\n我的看法 事前的防範防治絕對是重於事後的重罰所以事前的防範是什麼就要從制度下手尤其是你們7月14號的緊急擴大會議我們訂定了針對高風險的個案要啟動安全的計畫而且呢 必須是跨系統的協作\n也就是不是只有衛福部的事也不是只有社政機關的事更不是只有警察機關的事也不是推給司法機關就能了事所以民團的呼籲我相信你們都聽進去了高風險個案的個別化安全計畫的跨系統協作而不是單一機制來單打獨鬥\n我說的單一機制包括站在眼前的呂次長衛福部常常被究責但是這是一個跨系統的協作所以說呢下一頁\n這是你們7月14號全面性跨部會檢討精進的幾個五大結論所以最重要的是不是就是你認為這其實對我長期關心的人來講我會覺得很多都是我們一再強調的只是執行要更落實你有沒有認為哪一項是我們新的指引要跟國人報告\n報告委員非常感謝委員對於我們推動小組的關注我們這五個大重點裡面其實剛剛法務部徐市長還有特別談到未來在有關保護令的核發的部分其實我們一定要有一個警政這邊的資料還有我們社工這邊的資料一定要提供更詳實的一個information要不然其實老實說我們檢察官其實老實說也非常辛苦他們也不可能\n他們一定要看這個相關的這個information所以這個是我們未來在這個部分一定要來強化的部分也就是說對於施暴者他的進一步的data譬如說他是不是有犯罪前科他是不是有精神\n相關的疾病他是不是有酗酒吸毒各方面會讓他更成為施以暴力在保護令的執行期間的那個危險因子嘛所以這需要跨系統的協作來 下一頁\n好 那就回到前一頁那我作為立法委員我過去在台北市議會我也分享一個我當時催生的一個機制可以讓我們的警政系統來協助我們今天內政部副署長也在因為我們知道我們在地方都會每一季都會開地方的治安會議那治安會報呢我幾乎當議員的期間我都會去\n治安會報就是包括我們的各地的分局譬如說我在北投分局的治安會報士林分局的治安會報然後會邀請我們所有的派出所的主管所長會邀請我們所有的里長我們地方的重要人士包括民意代表我當時就催生了一件事情也就是說在治安會報的時候來我們警政署的代表治安會報的時候其實有幾個案類是每一次都要跟市民報告的你知道哪些案類嗎\n就是刑事案件重大刑事案件哪些類 竊盜\n重大的刑案像殺人案或者搶奪或者是像詐騙或是竊盜等等都有那家暴的部分如果家防中心一般來說也有參加所以有個我想要副所長報告當時我當台北市議員十多年前我每一次參加治安會議我發現這是一個很好的機制每一次的治安會議你都被人家所以可以告訴大家我們的轄區內以北投區這一季發生了幾起竊盜案\n發生了幾起刑事案件傷害案件發生了幾起詐騙案詐騙案是現在新加入的data讓大家都能夠互相有警示當時我就要求把家暴案列進去因為立定的協防最知道說我們這區裡面可能有已經有家暴案發生的家庭或者是潛在的高風險的家庭唯有透過各地治安會議一計一次\n所有的里长都在 领长也会参与的时候让他知道这一次 这一季我们北投区发生了几起家暴案\n大家就會啟動了那個預警的機制大家就會互相的通報互相的協力因為連治安會議也會有地方的這個像我們的關渡醫院啦我們的地區醫院也都一起來參與那是一個很好的場域針對鄰里民政系統、社政系統、衛政系統跟警政系統的協力\n在我那時候要求之後,台北市開始啟動了把家暴案類成為每一季的治安會議的追蹤、管考的項目而且要跟所有的社區參與者報告跟說明我不知道這樣的經驗在台灣有沒有被施行、被複製還是您認為我們可以來推動?還是已經上路了?因為台北市一定要齁,郝龍斌的時候是我催生的時候,那時候我早上起床走\n後面柯文哲料就逃逃啊 沒照去趕走我不知道現在的狀況是什麼我認為這是一個全國可以來推動的委員這個提的部分是我們警察局都會在社區辦理這個社區治安座談會但有沒有列入交報案現在台北市有在實施那我們會通知其他的縣市也可以來你認為這樣是不是一個好的方式這就是社區協防社區協防讓社區了解他們的治安的狀況\n過去人家說不要介入人家家務室但是現在是我們一起來當管家婆我們要繼續來雞婆為了社區的安寧為了我們所有的家庭家庭 大家好生活 大家安全大家做回來做管家婆 好不好所以我希望這是一個好的機制可以推行到全國 好不好大家加油 辛苦了 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.646 --> 00:13.650\n我們需要一個正確的、清楚的法治教育\n\n00:28.574 --> 00:53.203\n這個不管是複密或是許次啊今天有我們的在野黨的委員剛剛在其他的委員會質詢語出驚人啊他說我們當然對於台電的理性員工他因為救災而大家全民為他集氣但是剛剛最一個好消息他慢慢的恢復心跳了所以全民一起為我們辛苦的台電人員\n\n00:54.123 --> 01:15.503\n給他最高的祝福,希望他能夠挺過難關,能夠早日康復但是呢,非常遺憾在野黨的委員,剛剛在未還委員會語出驚人他說台灣葉克摩最厲害的是柯文哲醫師所以呢,不可以把柯文哲關著,要把柯文哲放出去救台電員工才對啊\n\n01:16.864 --> 01:38.947\n台電董事長去醫院幹嘛經濟部郭部長去醫院幹嘛要把柯文哲放出去去救台電員工才對我們需要一個正確的法治教育如果說醫生犯罪不能關因為他要救人那一樣立法委員犯罪不能關\n\n01:39.895 --> 01:52.296\n因為他要去選民服務有存在這種謬論嗎來我們法界代表推派一位等一下呂次長你可能也想要回應一下來看是徐次好了\n\n01:54.926 --> 02:23.207\n好委員好你認同這種說法嗎我們需要給國人正確的法治教育跟委員報告我們尊重陳委員的發言任何人都可以講他想講的話但是因為他所提到的柯市長他現在因為還有其他的因素在羈押中目前沒有辦法是不可能也不應該有法律的程序他是被告的嫌疑人來呃呂次長\n\n02:24.594 --> 02:43.529\n科醫師現在可以出去執業嗎報告委員這個我們也是如同市長剛剛說我覺得這個我們尊重陳委員的一個高見但是這個法有名文也有相關的規定那我們其實這法治國家就應該按照法治國家的程序來進行以上謝謝\n\n02:44.890 --> 02:47.693\n我們同樣的面對這樣的立委質詢我們要清楚的向國人法治教育否則呢今天可能網路上社群上又有很多亂帶風向的作為我們依循法治國家任何的被害嫌疑人當然有他的司法人權\n\n02:59.867 --> 03:21.364\n可以透過任何方式去捍衛他的司法正義但是循程序中他現在在演壓中而且也剛開完演壓廷我們要相信司法檢調人員的獨立辦案所以並不存在柯文哲的葉克膜很厲害所以現在要救台電員工要把柯文哲放出去\n\n03:22.285 --> 03:36.752\n我們也再次呼籲希望讓台電員工有更好的職場作業的安全我們應當一起來支持台電必要的預算來強化國家的電網韌性來強化優化人民的供電安全好謝謝下一頁\n\n03:37.748 --> 04:00.601\n今天質詢的主題呢我們針對當然土城的不幸事件讓我們通案來從個案來檢視通案的制度我剛剛有看到黃國昌委員的槌尋他說違反保護令的裁判情形呢他恐怕是認為過輕啦因為拘役的七成三六個月以下有期徒刑是22.8%但是整個定罪率是來到97%嘛對不對\n\n04:06.704 --> 04:17.369\n那我另外具體的統計了近十年2015到2024家暴案件執行家暴案件最終經過司法的程序去偵辦最終的有罪判決\n\n04:21.007 --> 04:39.858\n有68.75%這十年來居易是四成六個月以下是16%當然也有無罪的那也有相當高的比例27%是不受理的因為可能有人撤銷撤回或是和解嘛\n\n04:40.658 --> 04:57.414\n所以說如果就這個數字來看可能會誤導了國人認為說即使有保護令的制度即使有違反保護令罪即使我們對於家暴案件也立了專法大家投入來偵辦\n\n04:59.136 --> 05:25.350\n但是我不希望因為家暴真的是清官很難去定家內事他還是要依循他犯罪的事實而且我們要尊重司法個案的查辦每個case狀況不一樣而且我們要符合憲法23條的避利原則我們更要符合罪行相當的原則重罪不能輕放但小罪也不能重罰\n\n05:26.671 --> 05:50.557\n這是有憲法的比例原則跟罪行相當的原則所以我是希望說我們的案非常遺憾我們都不希望有任何的家暴案件更不容許發生這種在保護令期間就被傷害了犧牲寶貴的生命但是不要用極端的個案以為重罰重罰重罰就可以了事我的論點你們都同意嗎\n\n05:51.946 --> 05:55.698\n好下一頁你們三個都站得很遠欸那誰代表一下\n\n05:57.161 --> 06:23.875\n來呂氏你要說嗎不是我簡單我簡單回應那個委員我們其實前幾天有開一個那個檢討重大案件檢討會議其實有委員也有提到就是說其實有時候你用這個重法你用這個重案比如說它你該羈押當然要羈押可是如果不該羈押你違反比例原則其實反而會刺激到這一個整個這一個加害者的情緒嘛它以後就導入也許有人想要挽回家庭\n\n06:24.455 --> 06:46.009\n所以我就這裡面當然就是確實有很多面向要考慮我稍後在政策會讓你回應我們的主席也應該能夠理解所以我要說亂世用重點就對了嗎亂世用重點的下一句話叫做攻心才是上策也就是防止家暴\n\n06:46.869 --> 07:00.983\n我的看法事前的防範防治絕對是重於事後的重罰所以事前的防範是什麼就要從制度下手尤其是你們7月14號的緊急擴大會議我們訂定了針對高風險的個案要啟動安全的計畫而且呢必須是跨系統的協作\n\n07:11.753 --> 07:37.469\n也就是不是只有衛福部的事也不是只有社政機關的事更不是只有警察機關的事也不是推給司法機關就能了事所以民團的呼籲我相信你們都聽進去了高風險個案的個別化安全計畫的跨系統協作而不是單一機制來單打獨鬥\n\n07:38.730 --> 07:46.844\n我說的單一機制包括站在眼前的呂次長衛福部常常被究責但是這是一個跨系統的協作所以說呢下一頁\n\n07:50.678 --> 08:12.116\n這是你們7月14號全面性跨部會檢討精進的幾個五大結論所以最重要的是不是就是你認為這其實對我長期關心的人來講我會覺得很多都是我們一再強調的只是執行要更落實你有沒有認為哪一項是我們新的指引要跟國人報告\n\n08:13.777 --> 08:38.009\n報告委員非常感謝委員對於我們推動小組的關注我們這五個大重點裡面其實剛剛法務部徐市長還有特別談到未來在有關保護令的核發的部分其實我們一定要有一個警政這邊的資料還有我們社工這邊的資料一定要提供更詳實的一個information要不然其實老實說我們檢察官其實老實說也非常辛苦他們也不可能\n\n08:38.749 --> 08:54.583\n他們一定要看這個相關的這個information所以這個是我們未來在這個部分一定要來強化的部分也就是說對於施暴者他的進一步的data譬如說他是不是有犯罪前科他是不是有精神\n\n08:55.463 --> 09:09.935\n相關的疾病他是不是有酗酒吸毒各方面會讓他更成為施以暴力在保護令的執行期間的那個危險因子嘛所以這需要跨系統的協作來下一頁\n\n09:11.308 --> 09:31.907\n好那就回到前一頁那我作為立法委員我過去在台北市議會我也分享一個我當時催生的一個機制可以讓我們的警政系統來協助我們今天內政部副署長也在因為我們知道我們在地方都會每一季都會開地方的治安會議那治安會報呢我幾乎當議員的期間我都會去\n\n09:36.872 --> 10:05.425\n治安會報就是包括我們的各地的分局譬如說我在北投分局的治安會報士林分局的治安會報然後會邀請我們所有的派出所的主管所長會邀請我們所有的里長我們地方的重要人士包括民意代表我當時就催生了一件事情也就是說在治安會報的時候來我們警政署的代表治安會報的時候其實有幾個案類是每一次都要跟市民報告的你知道哪些案類嗎\n\n10:07.011 --> 10:10.760\n就是刑事案件重大刑事案件哪些類竊盜\n\n10:12.899 --> 10:25.661\n重大的刑案像殺人案或者搶奪或者是像詐騙或是竊盜等等都有那家暴的部分如果家防中心一般來說也有參加所以有個我想要副所長報告當時我當台北市議員十多年前我每一次參加治安會議我發現這是一個很好的機制每一次的治安會議你都被人家所以可以告訴大家我們的轄區內以北投區這一季發生了幾起竊盜案\n\n10:41.844 --> 10:59.516\n發生了幾起刑事案件傷害案件發生了幾起詐騙案詐騙案是現在新加入的data讓大家都能夠互相有警示當時我就要求把家暴案列進去因為立定的協防最知道說我們這區裡面可能有已經有家暴案發生的家庭或者是潛在的高風險的家庭唯有透過各地治安會議一計一次\n\n11:11.624 --> 11:20.990\n所有的里长都在领长也会参与的时候让他知道这一次这一季我们北投区发生了几起家暴案\n\n11:22.349 --> 11:44.850\n大家就會啟動了那個預警的機制大家就會互相的通報互相的協力因為連治安會議也會有地方的這個像我們的關渡醫院啦我們的地區醫院也都一起來參與那是一個很好的場域針對鄰里民政系統、社政系統、衛政系統跟警政系統的協力\n\n11:47.052 --> 12:04.702\n在我那時候要求之後,台北市開始啟動了把家暴案類成為每一季的治安會議的追蹤、管考的項目而且要跟所有的社區參與者報告跟說明我不知道這樣的經驗在台灣有沒有被施行、被複製還是您認為我們可以來推動?還是已經上路了?因為台北市一定要齁,郝龍斌的時候是我催生的時候,那時候我早上起床走\n\n12:12.623 --> 12:36.064\n後面柯文哲料就逃逃啊沒照去趕走我不知道現在的狀況是什麼我認為這是一個全國可以來推動的委員這個提的部分是我們警察局都會在社區辦理這個社區治安座談會但有沒有列入交報案現在台北市有在實施那我們會通知其他的縣市也可以來你認為這樣是不是一個好的方式這就是社區協防社區協防讓社區了解他們的治安的狀況\n\n12:39.687 --> 13:00.477\n過去人家說不要介入人家家務室但是現在是我們一起來當管家婆我們要繼續來雞婆為了社區的安寧為了我們所有的家庭家庭大家好生活大家安全大家做回來做管家婆好不好所以我希望這是一個好的機制可以推行到全國好不好大家加油辛苦了謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.646,"end":13.65,"text":"我們需要一個正確的、清楚的法治教育"},{"start":28.574,"end":53.203,"text":"這個不管是複密或是許次啊今天有我們的在野黨的委員剛剛在其他的委員會質詢語出驚人啊他說我們當然對於台電的理性員工他因為救災而大家全民為他集氣但是剛剛最一個好消息他慢慢的恢復心跳了所以全民一起為我們辛苦的台電人員"},{"start":54.123,"end":75.503,"text":"給他最高的祝福,希望他能夠挺過難關,能夠早日康復但是呢,非常遺憾在野黨的委員,剛剛在未還委員會語出驚人他說台灣葉克摩最厲害的是柯文哲醫師所以呢,不可以把柯文哲關著,要把柯文哲放出去救台電員工才對啊"},{"start":76.864,"end":98.947,"text":"台電董事長去醫院幹嘛經濟部郭部長去醫院幹嘛要把柯文哲放出去去救台電員工才對我們需要一個正確的法治教育如果說醫生犯罪不能關因為他要救人那一樣立法委員犯罪不能關"},{"start":99.895,"end":112.296,"text":"因為他要去選民服務有存在這種謬論嗎來 我們法界代表推派一位等一下呂次長你可能也想要回應一下來 看是徐次好了"},{"start":114.926,"end":143.207,"text":"好委員好你認同這種說法嗎我們需要給國人正確的法治教育跟委員報告我們尊重陳委員的發言任何人都可以講他想講的話但是因為他所提到的柯市長他現在因為還有其他的因素在羈押中目前沒有辦法是不可能也不應該有法律的程序他是被告的嫌疑人來呃呂次長"},{"start":144.594,"end":163.529,"text":"科醫師現在可以出去執業嗎報告委員 這個我們也是如同市長剛剛說我覺得這個我們尊重陳委員的一個高見但是這個法有名文也有相關的規定那我們其實這法治國家就應該按照法治國家的程序來進行以上 謝謝"},{"start":164.89,"end":167.693,"text":"我們同樣的面對這樣的立委質詢我們要清楚的向國人法治教育否則呢今天可能網路上社群上又有很多亂帶風向的作為我們依循法治國家任何的被害嫌疑人當然有他的司法人權"},{"start":179.867,"end":201.364,"text":"可以透過任何方式去捍衛他的司法正義但是循程序中他現在在演壓中而且也剛開完演壓廷我們要相信司法檢調人員的獨立辦案所以並不存在柯文哲的葉克膜很厲害所以現在要救台電員工要把柯文哲放出去"},{"start":202.285,"end":216.752,"text":"我們也再次呼籲希望讓台電員工有更好的職場作業的安全我們應當一起來支持台電必要的預算來強化國家的電網韌性來強化優化人民的供電安全好 謝謝 下一頁"},{"start":217.748,"end":240.601,"text":"今天質詢的主題呢我們針對當然土城的不幸事件讓我們通案來從個案來檢視通案的制度我剛剛有看到黃國昌委員的槌尋他說違反保護令的裁判情形呢他恐怕是認為過輕啦因為拘役的七成三六個月以下有期徒刑是22.8%但是整個定罪率是來到97%嘛對不對"},{"start":246.704,"end":257.369,"text":"那我另外具體的統計了近十年2015到2024家暴案件執行家暴案件最終經過司法的程序去偵辦最終的有罪判決"},{"start":261.007,"end":279.858,"text":"有68.75%這十年來居易是四成六個月以下是16%當然也有無罪的那也有相當高的比例27%是不受理的因為可能有人撤銷撤回或是和解嘛"},{"start":280.658,"end":297.414,"text":"所以說如果就這個數字來看可能會誤導了國人認為說即使有保護令的制度即使有違反保護令罪即使我們對於家暴案件也立了專法大家投入來偵辦"},{"start":299.136,"end":325.35,"text":"但是我不希望因為家暴真的是清官很難去定家內事他還是要依循他犯罪的事實而且我們要尊重司法個案的查辦每個case狀況不一樣而且我們要符合憲法23條的避利原則我們更要符合罪行相當的原則重罪不能輕放但小罪也不能重罰"},{"start":326.671,"end":350.557,"text":"這是有憲法的比例原則跟罪行相當的原則所以我是希望說我們的案非常遺憾我們都不希望有任何的家暴案件更不容許發生這種在保護令期間就被傷害了犧牲寶貴的生命但是不要用極端的個案以為重罰重罰重罰就可以了事我的論點你們都同意嗎"},{"start":351.946,"end":355.698,"text":"好 下一頁你們三個都站得很遠欸那誰代表一下"},{"start":357.161,"end":383.875,"text":"來 呂氏你要說嗎不是 我簡單 我簡單回應那個委員我們其實前幾天有開一個那個檢討 重大案件檢討會議其實有委員也有提到就是說其實有時候你用這個重法你用這個重案 比如說它你該羈押當然要羈押 可是如果不該羈押你違反比例原則 其實反而會刺激到這一個整個 這一個加害者的情緒嘛 它以後就導入 也許有人想要挽回家庭"},{"start":384.455,"end":406.009,"text":"所以我就這裡面當然就是確實有很多面向要考慮我稍後在政策會讓你回應我們的主席也應該能夠理解所以我要說亂世用重點就對了嗎亂世用重點的下一句話叫做攻心才是上策也就是防止家暴"},{"start":406.869,"end":420.983,"text":"我的看法 事前的防範防治絕對是重於事後的重罰所以事前的防範是什麼就要從制度下手尤其是你們7月14號的緊急擴大會議我們訂定了針對高風險的個案要啟動安全的計畫而且呢 必須是跨系統的協作"},{"start":431.753,"end":457.469,"text":"也就是不是只有衛福部的事也不是只有社政機關的事更不是只有警察機關的事也不是推給司法機關就能了事所以民團的呼籲我相信你們都聽進去了高風險個案的個別化安全計畫的跨系統協作而不是單一機制來單打獨鬥"},{"start":458.73,"end":466.844,"text":"我說的單一機制包括站在眼前的呂次長衛福部常常被究責但是這是一個跨系統的協作所以說呢下一頁"},{"start":470.678,"end":492.116,"text":"這是你們7月14號全面性跨部會檢討精進的幾個五大結論所以最重要的是不是就是你認為這其實對我長期關心的人來講我會覺得很多都是我們一再強調的只是執行要更落實你有沒有認為哪一項是我們新的指引要跟國人報告"},{"start":493.777,"end":518.009,"text":"報告委員非常感謝委員對於我們推動小組的關注我們這五個大重點裡面其實剛剛法務部徐市長還有特別談到未來在有關保護令的核發的部分其實我們一定要有一個警政這邊的資料還有我們社工這邊的資料一定要提供更詳實的一個information要不然其實老實說我們檢察官其實老實說也非常辛苦他們也不可能"},{"start":518.749,"end":534.583,"text":"他們一定要看這個相關的這個information所以這個是我們未來在這個部分一定要來強化的部分也就是說對於施暴者他的進一步的data譬如說他是不是有犯罪前科他是不是有精神"},{"start":535.463,"end":549.935,"text":"相關的疾病他是不是有酗酒吸毒各方面會讓他更成為施以暴力在保護令的執行期間的那個危險因子嘛所以這需要跨系統的協作來 下一頁"},{"start":551.308,"end":571.907,"text":"好 那就回到前一頁那我作為立法委員我過去在台北市議會我也分享一個我當時催生的一個機制可以讓我們的警政系統來協助我們今天內政部副署長也在因為我們知道我們在地方都會每一季都會開地方的治安會議那治安會報呢我幾乎當議員的期間我都會去"},{"start":576.872,"end":605.425,"text":"治安會報就是包括我們的各地的分局譬如說我在北投分局的治安會報士林分局的治安會報然後會邀請我們所有的派出所的主管所長會邀請我們所有的里長我們地方的重要人士包括民意代表我當時就催生了一件事情也就是說在治安會報的時候來我們警政署的代表治安會報的時候其實有幾個案類是每一次都要跟市民報告的你知道哪些案類嗎"},{"start":607.011,"end":610.76,"text":"就是刑事案件重大刑事案件哪些類 竊盜"},{"start":612.899,"end":625.661,"text":"重大的刑案像殺人案或者搶奪或者是像詐騙或是竊盜等等都有那家暴的部分如果家防中心一般來說也有參加所以有個我想要副所長報告當時我當台北市議員十多年前我每一次參加治安會議我發現這是一個很好的機制每一次的治安會議你都被人家所以可以告訴大家我們的轄區內以北投區這一季發生了幾起竊盜案"},{"start":641.844,"end":659.516,"text":"發生了幾起刑事案件傷害案件發生了幾起詐騙案詐騙案是現在新加入的data讓大家都能夠互相有警示當時我就要求把家暴案列進去因為立定的協防最知道說我們這區裡面可能有已經有家暴案發生的家庭或者是潛在的高風險的家庭唯有透過各地治安會議一計一次"},{"start":671.624,"end":680.99,"text":"所有的里长都在 领长也会参与的时候让他知道这一次 这一季我们北投区发生了几起家暴案"},{"start":682.349,"end":704.85,"text":"大家就會啟動了那個預警的機制大家就會互相的通報互相的協力因為連治安會議也會有地方的這個像我們的關渡醫院啦我們的地區醫院也都一起來參與那是一個很好的場域針對鄰里民政系統、社政系統、衛政系統跟警政系統的協力"},{"start":707.052,"end":724.702,"text":"在我那時候要求之後,台北市開始啟動了把家暴案類成為每一季的治安會議的追蹤、管考的項目而且要跟所有的社區參與者報告跟說明我不知道這樣的經驗在台灣有沒有被施行、被複製還是您認為我們可以來推動?還是已經上路了?因為台北市一定要齁,郝龍斌的時候是我催生的時候,那時候我早上起床走"},{"start":732.623,"end":756.064,"text":"後面柯文哲料就逃逃啊 沒照去趕走我不知道現在的狀況是什麼我認為這是一個全國可以來推動的委員這個提的部分是我們警察局都會在社區辦理這個社區治安座談會但有沒有列入交報案現在台北市有在實施那我們會通知其他的縣市也可以來你認為這樣是不是一個好的方式這就是社區協防社區協防讓社區了解他們的治安的狀況"},{"start":759.687,"end":780.477,"text":"過去人家說不要介入人家家務室但是現在是我們一起來當管家婆我們要繼續來雞婆為了社區的安寧為了我們所有的家庭家庭 大家好生活 大家安全大家做回來做管家婆 好不好所以我希望這是一個好的機制可以推行到全國 好不好大家加油 辛苦了 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1031,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時41分）謝謝主席，有請王副秘、徐次長還有呂次長。"],["主席：麻煩王副秘、兩位次長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員早。"],["吳委員思瑤：大家早安。我們需要一個正確的、清楚的法治教育，不管是副秘或是徐次，今天在野黨的委員剛剛在其他委員會質詢時語出驚人。當然對於台電的李姓員工因為救災而受傷，全民為他集氣，但是剛剛有一個好消息，他慢慢地恢復心跳了，所以全民一起給我們辛苦的台電人員最高的祝福，希望他能夠挺過難關，能夠早日康復。","但是非常遺憾的，在野黨的委員剛剛在衛環委員會語出驚人，他說：臺灣葉克膜最厲害的是柯文哲醫師，所以不可以把柯文哲關著，要把柯文哲放出去救台電員工才對啊！台電董事長去醫院幹嘛？經濟部郭部長去醫院看要幹嘛？要把柯文哲放出去，去救台電員工才對！我們需要一個正確的法治教育，如果說醫生犯罪不能關，因為他要救人，一樣，立法委員犯罪不能關，因為他要去選民服務，有存在這種謬論嗎？請我們法界代表推派一位，等一下呂次長可能也想要回應一下，請徐次好了。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：你認同這種說法嗎？我們需要給國人正確的法治教育。"],["徐次長錫祥：跟委員報告，我們尊重陳委員的發言，任何人都可以講他想講的話，但是因為他所提到的柯市長現在因為還有其他的因素在羈押中，目前沒有辦法。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，不可能，也不應該，法律有法律的程序，因為他是被告、嫌疑人。","請問呂次長，柯醫師現在可以出去執業嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們也是如同剛剛次長說的，我們尊重陳委員的一個高見，但是法有明文，也有相關的規定，其實法治國家就應該按照法治國家的程序來進行，以上。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，我們同樣的，面對這樣的立委質詢，我們要清楚的向國人法治教育，否則今天可能網路上、社群上又有很多亂帶風向的作為，我們依循法治國家，任何被告嫌疑人當然有他的司法人權，可以透過任何方式去捍衛他的司法正義，但是循程序中，他現在在延押中，而且也剛開完延押庭，我們要相信司法檢調人員的獨立辦案，所以並不存在柯文哲的葉克膜很厲害，現在要救台電員工，要把柯文哲放出去，我們也再次呼籲，希望讓台電員工有更好的職場作業安全，我們應當一起來支持台電必要的預算，來強化國家的電網韌性，強化、優化人民的供電安全，謝謝。","今天質詢的主題，我們針對土城的不幸事件，讓我們從個案來檢視通案的制度。我剛剛有看到黃國昌委員的垂詢，他認為違反保護令的裁判情形恐怕是過輕了，因為拘役的有七成三，六個月以下有期徒刑是22.8%，但是整個定罪率是97%，對不對？我另外具體統計了近十年（從2015年到2024年）家暴案件執行裁判的情形，就是家暴案件經過司法程序偵辦，最終有罪判決的有68.75%，這十年來，拘役是四成，六個月以下是16%，當然也有無罪的，也有相當高的比率27%是不受理的，因為可能有人撤銷、撤回或是和解。所以如果就這個數字來看，可能會誤導了國人，認為即使有保護令的制度，即使有違反保護令罪，即使我們對於家暴案件也立了專法，大家投入偵辦，但是因為家暴真的是清官很難去斷家內事，還是要依循他犯罪的事實，而且我們要尊重司法個案的查辦，每個case狀況不一樣，要符合憲法第二十三條的比例原則，更要符合罪刑相當的原則，重罪不能輕放，但小罪也不能重罰，這是有憲法的比例原則跟罪刑相當原則。我們當然非常遺憾，我們都不希望有任何的家暴案件，更不容許發生這種在保護令期間就被傷害了，犧牲寶貴的生命，但是不要用極端的個案以為重罰、重罰、重罰就可以了事，我的論點你們都同意嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：同意。"],["吳委員思瑤：好。你們三個都站得很遠，誰來代表一下？呂次，你要說嗎？"],["呂次長建德：我簡單回應委員，其實我們前幾天有開一個重大案件檢討會議，委員也有提到，該羈押當然要羈押，可是如果不該羈押，違反比例原則，反而會刺激到整個……"],["吳委員思瑤：加害者的情緒……"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯……"],["吳委員思瑤：也許有人想要挽回家庭。"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯，所以我覺得這當然確實一定要符合比例原則……"],["吳委員思瑤：有很多面向要考慮，我稍後在政策面會讓您回應。"],["呂次長建德：像吳宗憲委員之前也擔任過檢察官，我想確實也……"],["吳委員思瑤：我們的主席也應當能夠理解。"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，所以我要說，亂世用重典就對了嗎？亂世用重典的下一句話叫做攻心才是上策。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["吳委員思瑤：防治家暴，依我的看法，事前的防範、防治絕對是重於事後的重罰。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以事前的防範是什麼？要從制度下手，尤其是你們7月14號的緊急擴大會議訂定了針對高風險的個案要啟動安全計畫……"],["呂次長建德：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：而且必須是跨系統的協作。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["吳委員思瑤：也就是不是只有衛福部的事，也不是只有社政機關的事，更不是只有警察機關的事，也不是推給司法機關就能了事。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以民團的呼籲，我相信你們都聽進去了，高風險個案需個別化安全計畫與跨系統協作，而不是單一機制來單打獨鬥，我說的單一機制包括站在眼前的呂次長，衛福部常常被究責，但是這是一個跨系統的協作。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯、沒錯。"],["吳委員思瑤：再來，這是你們7月14號全面性跨部會檢討精進的五大結論。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["吳委員思瑤：其實這對於我這樣長期關心的人來講，我覺得很多都是我們一再強調的，只是執行要更落實。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["吳委員思瑤：你有沒有認為哪一項是新的指引要跟國人報告？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，非常感謝委員對於我們這個推動小組的關注，這五大重點裡面，剛剛法務部徐次長有特別談到，未來在保護令核發的部分，其實我們警政的資料還有社工的資料一定要提供更詳實的information，老實說，檢察官也非常辛苦，他們一定要看這個相關的information，這是我們未來一定要強化的部分。"],["吳委員思瑤：也就是說，對於施暴者進一步的data，譬如說他是不是有犯罪前科……"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["吳委員思瑤：他是不是有精神相關的疾病，是不是有酗酒、吸毒、各方面會更讓他在保護令的執行期間施以暴力的那個危險因子，所以這需要跨系統的協作。","我作為立法委員，但我過去在臺北市議會，我也分享一個我當時催生的機制，可以讓警政系統來協助我們。今天內政部副署長也在，我們知道地方每一季都會開地方的治安會議，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：對，治安會報。"],["吳委員思瑤：我當議員的期間幾乎都會去，治安會報就是包括各地的分局，譬如說在北投分局的治安會報、士林分局的治安會報，會邀請所有的派出所主管、所長，會邀請所有的里長、地方的重要人士，包括民意代表。我當時就催生了一件事情，請警政署的代表，在治安會報的時候，其實有幾個案類是每一次都要跟市民報告的，你知道有哪些案類嗎？就是重大刑事案件，有哪些類？竊盜……"],["廖副署長美鈴：對，重大的刑案，像殺人案、搶奪，或者是像詐騙、竊盜等等；家暴的部分，一般來說家防中心也有參加，所以有個案……"],["吳委員思瑤：我向副署長報告，當時我當臺北市議員，十多年前，我每一次參加治安會議，我發現這是一個很好的機制，每一次的治安會議，里長都在這裡，所以可以告訴大家，轄區內，譬如說北投區這一季發生了幾起竊盜案，發生了幾起刑事案件、傷害案件，發生了幾起詐騙案，詐騙案是現在新加入的data，讓大家都能夠互相有所警示，當時我就要求把家暴案列進去，因為里長的協防，他最知道這區裡面可能已經有家暴案發生的家庭，或者是潛在的高風險家庭，唯有透過各地一季一次的治安會議，所有的里長都在，鄰長也會參與的時候，讓他們知道這一季北投區發生了幾起家暴案，大家就會啟動預警的機制，大家就會互相通報、互相協力，因為治安會議也會有地方的醫院，像關渡醫院、地區醫院也都一起來參與，那是一個很好的場域，針對鄰里民政系統、社政系統、衛政系統跟警政系統的協力。在我那時候要求之後，臺北市開始啟動了，把家暴案類列為每一季治安會議追蹤管考的項目，而且要跟所有社區參與者報告及說明，我不知道這樣的經驗在臺灣有沒有被施行、被複製？還是您認為我們可以來推動？還是已經上路了？因為臺北市在郝龍斌的時候是我催生的，那時有照規矩來做，後來柯文哲之後就慢慢不照規矩做，我不知道現在的狀況是怎麼樣，我認為這是全國可以來推動的。"],["廖副署長美鈴：委員提的是我們警察局都會在社區辦理社區治安座談會……"],["吳委員思瑤：那有沒有列入家暴案？"],["廖副署長美鈴：現在臺北市有在實施，我們會通知其他縣市也可以參考、比照辦理。"],["吳委員思瑤：你認為這是不是一個好的方式？這就是社區協防。"],["廖副署長美鈴：這是一個很好的方式，可以讓社區了解他們的治安狀況。"],["吳委員思瑤：過去人家說不要介入人家的家務事，但是現在是我們一起來當管家婆，我們要繼續「雞婆」，為了社區的安寧，為了所有鄰居大家好生活，顧大家的安全，大家一起來做管家婆，好不好？所以我希望這是一個好機制，可以推行到全國，好不好？大家加油，辛苦了，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","接下來請莊瑞雄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":144,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-22","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","林倩綺","王義川","翁曉玲","沈發惠","羅智強","李坤城","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","陳培瑜","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2025-07-16"],"gazette_id":"1146701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部部長、內政部警政署署長、教育部、勞動部、內\n政部移民署率所屬相關單位列席就「保護令不是萬能的?!如何避免憾事再度發生。家庭暴力防治\n法保護令核發，研析配套措施之檢討與精進，並提供相關統計數據」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146701_00002"}}}