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{\"start\": 133.243, \"end\": 149.512, \"text\": \"嘉義縣市還有台南那你們整個化管署從2019年就逐步推動實名建材的普查和管理那初期透過人力的目測進行事半調查\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"嘉\", \"start\": 133.243, \"end\": 135.764, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"義\"}, {\"word\": \"縣\"}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 135.764, \"end\": 136.965, \"score\": 0.646}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 136.965, \"end\": 137.165, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 137.165, \"end\": 137.365, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"南\", \"start\": 137.365, \"end\": 138.766, \"score\": 0.769}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 138.766, \"end\": 139.066, \"score\": 0.763}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 139.066, \"end\": 139.426, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 139.426, \"end\": 141.067, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 141.067, \"end\": 141.287, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 141.287, \"end\": 141.527, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 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\"end\": 1119.585, \"score\": 0.774}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1119.585, \"end\": 1119.705, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"容\", \"start\": 1119.705, \"end\": 1120.006, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"量\", \"start\": 1120.006, \"end\": 1120.466, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"足\", \"start\": 1120.466, \"end\": 1120.486, \"score\": 0.563}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 1122.079, \"end\": 1144.433, \"text\": \"那三家你唸給我聽他們容納量是多少三家是中台日友跟可寧衛可寧衛中台日友他們的掩埋場在哪裡張斌掩埋就地掩埋有掩埋的他們會先來做固化然後再來做一個掩埋好\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1122.079, \"end\": 1122.319, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 1122.319, \"end\": 1122.619, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 1122.619, \"end\": 1123.04, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1123.04, \"end\": 1123.34, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"唸\"}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1123.34, \"end\": 1123.74, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 1123.74, \"end\": 1124.02, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"容\", \"start\": 1124.02, \"end\": 1124.621, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"納\"}, {\"word\": \"量\", \"start\": 1124.621, \"end\": 1125.181, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1125.181, \"end\": 1125.361, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 1125.361, \"end\": 1125.601, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 1125.601, \"end\": 1126.302, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 1126.302, \"end\": 1126.462, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 1126.462, \"end\": 1126.622, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1126.622, \"end\": 1126.762, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 1126.762, \"end\": 1126.982, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 1126.982, \"end\": 1127.222, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"日\", \"start\": 1127.222, \"end\": 1127.382, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"友\", \"start\": 1127.382, 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1141.892, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 1141.892, \"end\": 1142.092, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 1142.092, \"end\": 1142.732, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 1142.732, \"end\": 1142.932, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"固\", \"start\": 1142.932, \"end\": 1143.052, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 1143.052, \"end\": 1143.072, \"score\": 0.013}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 1143.072, \"end\": 1143.252, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 1143.252, \"end\": 1143.473, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 1143.473, \"end\": 1143.793, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 1143.793, \"end\": 1143.933, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1143.933, \"end\": 1144.093, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"掩\", \"start\": 1144.093, \"end\": 1144.253, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"埋\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 1150.471, \"end\": 1150.631, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"石\", \"start\": 1150.631, \"end\": 1150.771, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"棉\", \"start\": 1150.771, \"end\": 1151.352, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"廢\"}, {\"word\": \"棄\"}, {\"word\": \"物\", \"start\": 1151.352, \"end\": 1151.472, \"score\": 0.761}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 1151.472, \"end\": 1151.612, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1151.612, \"end\": 1151.732, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"空\", \"start\": 1151.732, \"end\": 1152.453, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 1152.453, \"end\": 1153.515, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"隱\"}, {\"word\": \"埋\", \"start\": 1153.515, \"end\": 1153.675, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1153.675, \"end\": 1153.755, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"空\", \"start\": 1153.755, \"end\": 1154.276, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, 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--> 00:00:08,421\n好謝謝是不是請我們彭部長李委員好部長好這是颱風17急風我們看到滿目瘡痍而且這個災損非常的嚴重不僅是家園的破損也不只是這個光電板還有一種更致命的威脅\n\n2\n00:00:29,033 --> 00:00:49,622\n那很多人大量的這個暴露在這種獨管法所列管全面的禁用而且這個巨大的風險而且馬上接觸到會直接造成傷害的有害廢棄物的風險之中你猜猜看那這些東西會是那這個物質是什麼\n\n3\n00:00:51,496 --> 00:01:05,788\n比這個光電板還要更巨大的風險直接暴露會導致肺癌喉癌卵巢癌還有肩皮瘤癌我講肩皮瘤癌大家聽得懂嗎包委員失眠嘉義台南失眠很嚴重\n\n4\n00:01:09,611 --> 00:01:31,333\n食棉它的纖維是人類頭髮的千分之一一旦吸入很難排出我們剛剛講的很容易引起肺部細胞的病變所以國際癌症研究所是列為第一類的人體致癌物我剛剛講的那幾種癌是非常\n\n5\n00:01:33,355 --> 00:01:47,291\n嚴重的那面對這個可預見的公共衛生的危機這次風災不要忘了17級多少的房子以前在蓋的老舊房子屋頂屋瓦\n\n6\n00:01:48,412 --> 00:02:10,264\n都是實棉瓦牆壁實棉牆這種狀況裡面我們要問部長你到底可以退估你們有沒有去評估有沒有去計算災區現在有多少的實棉廢棄物呢有報告委員3個縣市包含嘉義縣市還有台南總共有15600噸\n\n7\n00:02:13,243 --> 00:02:29,512\n嘉義縣市還有台南那你們整個化管署從2019年就逐步推動實名建材的普查和管理那初期透過人力的目測進行事半調查\n\n8\n00:02:30,532 --> 00:02:37,697\n那發現全國普查存在著高成本還有高樓層難以去辨識的限制所以你們現在都改用航遙測還有這個高光譜影像和衛星資料去完成屋頂實面瓦的空間分佈推估還有全台灣的資料庫建置喔那在這種狀況裡面呢2022年你們針對建築物不是只有屋頂用實面瓦包括建築物的側邊\n\n9\n00:02:58,351 --> 00:03:11,423\n那其實很難去推估也很難去盤點高樓層也很困難你們用航測其實有點困難所以你們進行了這個影像辨識和無人機的調查技術開發這個地調查用APP發現\n\n10\n00:03:17,528 --> 00:03:35,574\n這個開發這個限地調查限地調查用的APP工具那2023年整合了AI的這個機器學習完全側邊十面影像的自動判試技術啦這種狀況裡面這次災損年評估是一萬三千噸左右一萬五千一萬五千噸\n\n11\n00:03:37,915 --> 00:03:56,149\n但我要問你你們這麼多年用了航遙測AI影像辨識技術提升了資料的掌握度但你們在這種狀況裡面根據你們調查全台灣有多少的洞屋子的結構是使用10米瓦多少洞大概有多少量全部我印象是50萬噸50萬噸\n\n12\n00:03:59,952 --> 00:04:06,954\n如果以屋頂的話是屋瓦的話是20幾萬棟20幾萬棟當時我們推估就是從石棉瓦的部分來推估我看你們的資料你們根據2023年的統計和推估石棉屋頂數量還有推估的重量屋頂和重量沒有包括側邊其實還有側邊\n\n13\n00:04:25,420 --> 00:04:52,318\n光是看屋頂就好了動數最多的前三個縣市是台南市高雄市雲林縣而重量最重的前三個縣市是台南市彰化縣和高雄市所以災情最嚴重的這個換句話說台南雲林彰化等等都是10米瓦的數量和重量最多的地區就符合你剛才的報告\n\n14\n00:04:55,501 --> 00:04:58,166\n你們也去估出來了那請問你們估出來後怎麼應用在這個災後的\n\n15\n00:05:02,416 --> 00:05:26,894\n這個清理上面你們政策上是怎麼做因為過去從112到116總共編了行政院給了16億的經費逐年來做那一年大概是大概3億左右那這次是完全沒有辦法應付這個因為這個是主要是給民宅為主那我們今年4月有給一半的就是給畜牧業畜牧業如果他的屋頂壞掉他該得到50%的補助\n\n16\n00:05:28,976 --> 00:05:56,803\n但是這次其實真的是全面性的全面性的台南嘉義特別是嘉義很嚴重對所以因為其實報告委員因為那個一頓的處理費用要四萬五啦對很貴所以目前呢我們現在估算出來整個要處理解決這次風災光是這三個縣市大概就要七八億左右所以我們現在的確是正在努力的盤點量有多少跟地方政府合作盤點多少然後確定多少然後我們\n\n17\n00:05:58,063 --> 00:06:07,575\n你現在告訴我們說你的錢不夠但我的重點不在這裡而已這個很重要因為沒有錢沒有辦法去做嘛但我現在更要緊的是我跟你講大量的暴露風險立即的風險對生命安全對健康的風險的危害是立即的\n\n18\n00:06:16,065 --> 00:06:20,590\n那災後的失眠清理你預算不夠了那人力就足夠了嗎那不要講這個喔還有可能會去人家家裡說你家裡破了你的失眠碗破了我派人專業人力來處理不可能嘛\n\n19\n00:06:31,241 --> 00:06:55,351\n所以呢這個民眾要自立救濟要去修繕的時候這些人能不能瞭解實棉廢棄物怎麼處理呢你們做了什麼事我們有跟那個環保局合作主動的透過各種的媒介讓民眾知道你是實棉娃啊你如果破了你一定要找專業人來幫你講一樣臨港環保局合作來看一個區公所區公所台南市七谷區區公所\n\n20\n00:07:03,740 --> 00:07:27,539\n來台南市七谷區公所他說他告訴人家怎麼處理失眠喔失眠王失眠喔中邪沒有第一類的致癌物質喔然後114年丹納斯颱風失眠輕孕公所登記注意事項第一個請民眾拍照留存可以到公所來登記或者是電洽環保局第二個\n\n21\n00:07:28,700 --> 00:07:53,065\n儘由住家拆下的石棉自己拆的可以交到公所來定期啦你如果叫人家專業的來拆不然不用交公所來定期第三民眾可以先將石棉拆除裝到太空包飼料袋或肥料袋打包後請暫置自家場所地勢等等等等OK這樣做是合格的嗎\n\n22\n00:07:54,085 --> 00:08:13,999\n我們都知道失眠纖維比頭髮頭髮的千分之一啦然後立即馬上的自己拆除然後叫他自己打包然後立即吸入立即接觸立即暴露於風險當中那如果我們來看一下我們看一下這個依據勞動部的標準勞動部的標準\n\n23\n00:08:18,090 --> 00:08:35,717\n因為剛才台南市環保局對外的這個說明的補助原則是先拆先清然後裝袋後再來通知他們公所或環保局嘉義縣的做法也大同小異要求自行拆除政府僅負責後續的清運工作不要忘了喔\n\n24\n00:08:36,397 --> 00:08:54,666\n所以最危險的是拆除那個環節毫無專業的姿勢而且沒有任何防護的設備這樣的民眾他完全不知道自己的風險有多大我們看勞動部頒布的實免建材拆除危害預防指引第一條作業人員必須穿戴個人防護裝備\n\n25\n00:09:03,915 --> 00:09:19,349\n第二個隔離禁止進入及公告拆除現場的器具或防護具等未經清除附著物者不得稀疏作業場所這嚴格你看附著物的清除要隔離措施\n\n26\n00:09:21,516 --> 00:09:40,963\n所以事前他還講要調查要通報然後拆除的過程拆除以前必須將實棉建材以水或化學藥劑充分濕潤而且禁止使用強力的水槍以抑制粉塵的易散然後作業場所需要雙層隔離還要將工作區完全密閉維持在負壓狀態\n\n27\n00:09:47,865 --> 00:10:06,214\n防止失眠纖維外洩出口還要設置儲屋區專業的防護專業人員衣鋪路的等級穿戴動力濾鏡式呼吸防護具連身防護衣護目鏡手套等等好來這個是\n\n28\n00:10:09,369 --> 00:10:18,127\n這個是勞動部頒布的你在拆除的時候你的專業人力才能操作而且必須專業的配備保護\n\n29\n00:10:19,386 --> 00:10:28,328\n然後呢你現在你的公司剛才叫人自己聽還要跟人說這個問題沒有你說你自己聽你要整個地也搞好我們把你拿來去帶這樣對不對然後呢一般民眾不是這個指引適用的對象但是他危害的風險是一致的而且他毫無知識耶毫無常識耶\n\n30\n00:10:43,444 --> 00:11:09,334\n然後公所剛好去宣導林衛福部報警環境部要求他們要去宣導你們沒有錢給他們然後你們就讓他們自己自生自滅污染了居家的環境還讓這一些受災戶風災的受災戶要成為有害有毒廢棄物的二次暴露和環境再次\n\n31\n00:11:10,931 --> 00:11:25,349\n這個傷害的二次受災禍這樣對不對跟委員報告我們過去就是開始要去讓我們的實棉因為跟監獲調查要清楚的時候那我們有同時跟地方環保局來說明這個這一次有嗎\n\n32\n00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:46,456\n這次有公文給他們有通知他們嗎有責成地方環保局要去通知公所嗎有告訴公所你要叫人家拆除實棉不要忘了這個風險有多大你看勞動部的指引你看\n\n33\n00:11:47,777 --> 00:12:02,789\n七谷區公所民眾自行拆除防護宣導沒有幾乎沒有一到叫人家怎麼穿要怎麼口罩要N95至少要N95什麼動力式的過濾的呼吸器就不奢求了\n\n34\n00:12:08,126 --> 00:12:18,336\n光是裝在太空包合格嗎裝在飼料袋肥料袋汙染不就外洩了嗎它是不是有毒有害廢棄物因為它是纖維的問題\n\n35\n00:12:26,809 --> 00:12:47,477\n所以你看網友留言說什麼網友的講法是說你公所是叫我們喔實免掉下來廢棄物加上建築上剩餘的實免全部照片跑公所登記然後把實免掉下來廢棄物加上剩餘的實免現在先放在自己家裡面用太空包飼料袋肥料袋\n\n36\n00:12:48,538 --> 00:13:00,833\n這還在暴露喔風險還繼續喔然後他說理解的沒有錯吧然後鹽水區公所說對對對但是要裝袋喔裝袋就好了飛到地上也可以太空袋也可以起到地上也可以現在他們還有人來留言是說這個\n\n37\n00:13:08,275 --> 00:13:30,031\n環保局會派業者來將實名運走其他不是實名完的自行處理重點都說這個重點都不是這個只有逼太陽能板更加立即性的傷害的暴露在更巨大的有害有毒的風險當中有沒有比太陽能板更可怕更可怕肺癌尖皮瘤癌而且吸進去拿不出來一輩子你怎麼做保證你是做什麼\n\n38\n00:13:37,691 --> 00:13:57,120\n各位報告我們我們這次這個上禮拜的颱風的確是沒有特別再去講不過因為在台南嘉義本來他們就是數量很來看上一張所以你來看你沒有特別去講你看這公售公售叫人走你看這建築物含實免建材拆除剛才那一張對\n\n39\n00:13:59,761 --> 00:14:24,239\n隔離防護及廢棄物清理作業流程其實光是它的廢棄物都應該以厚度萬分之六十以上的塑膠袋雙層盛裝開口綁緊後戴口反摺再綑綁一次或以有封口的太空包這個盛裝盛裝外帶應有標示資訊如果有尖銳物體應置入金屬圓筒內包裝\n\n40\n00:14:26,340 --> 00:14:29,743\n這是很嚴格的這個是很嚴肅的事情這個比太陽能光電對人體的立即性傷害還更大包委員我們過去這一個多禮拜是跟地方政府在盤點需要有多少量然後去爭取經費你們盤點\n\n41\n00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:55,382\n是例行性盤點不是風災這樣子沒有沒有就是風災風災後因為今年已經沒有預算了1.56萬噸要多少錢7、8億左右所以我們要很努力去因為可能是地方政府他的知識不夠這個部分我們會加強7、8億夠嗎我現在為什麼要講這個呢因為你們從2023年開始就補助各地方政府免費清除石棉瓦但\n\n42\n00:15:17,068 --> 00:15:21,372\n民眾申請非常踴躍大家都知道說這個劇毒有害就都馬上要來申請補助要去清除所以每年經費都很快用完苗栗那種人口稀少的地區它出現了270噸的補助配額的時候5天就湧入330噸的申請量那台南市政府也表示民眾申請踴躍但每年經費很快用完\n\n43\n00:15:45,572 --> 00:15:59,398\n那你們的113年度去年的減收減量回收及資源循環推動計畫編列了相關的預算大概有5.8億看起來好像不少但是你知道全國推估24萬噸總重量52.9萬噸的實棉建築這是杯水車薪\n\n44\n00:16:05,700 --> 00:16:15,186\n那風災是特別事件而且瞬間短期大量的製造出了這個非立即拆除不可的實面他短期需要7.8萬噸你夠7.8萬7.8億7.8億那需要那錢要從哪裡來\n\n45\n00:16:22,490 --> 00:16:33,704\n目前我們正在爭取當中爭取哪裡?現在預算都沒有沒有沒有因為這個其實是因為院長有特別交代請陳靜德政委組成一個協調會因為這是風災的特別專案然後錢要從哪裡來?第二億北京\n\n46\n00:16:40,892 --> 00:17:01,380\n我不知道我們現在是跟地方合作因為地方先報給我們一個最大的量然後我相信可能實質的量我現在要說你們自己委託額外研究指數如果沒有這次風災然後照你平常所編列的預算去推估你們補助對象分年排出量以建築物登記時間估算屋齡建物耐用年數60年來推估的話\n\n47\n00:17:07,022 --> 00:17:21,954\n一百五十五年才能全數自然排出一百五十五年照你們現在這種的所以實免現在你們的處理最終處理就是以固化掩埋那未來要以這個導向熱處理為主然後這個錢要花很多這個你們評估這次的這一個量1.5\n\n48\n00:17:34,783 --> 00:17:38,310\n1.56萬噸1.56萬噸左右吧全部要採固化處理去掩埋嗎\n\n49\n00:17:47,296 --> 00:18:14,225\n這是目前的處理方法那我們現在嘉義台南雲林有固定掩埋的這個足夠的裝置容量嗎各位報告我們現在是有那個共同契約那分北中南然後去開這個共同契約那你們現在沒關係你們共同契約裡面你們都掩埋有哪幾個掩埋場不是每一個掩埋場都能掩埋吧那現在有三家\n\n50\n00:18:15,825 --> 00:18:40,486\n有三個三家哪個掩埋場我不是講那個處理商啊三個掩埋場是哪三個三個它的處理場對啊掩埋場掩埋在哪裡啦哪三個地方它的掩埋容納量可以多少它是專門否實棉的嗎它是為了就是最終的掩埋的處理設施那實棉是它的其中一種那現在是有三家在沒有我現在問你是掩埋場的容量還足夠嗎\n\n51\n00:18:42,079 --> 00:19:04,433\n那三家你唸給我聽他們容納量是多少三家是中台日友跟可寧衛可寧衛中台日友他們的掩埋場在哪裡張斌掩埋就地掩埋有掩埋的他們會先來做固化然後再來做一個掩埋好\n\n52\n00:19:06,806 --> 00:19:23,468\n那這些瞬間大量的石棉瓦或石棉廢棄物它的空間調度這個隱埋的空間調度是不是有評估那你們評估這樣子平日的處理量能突然增加了這麼多這個會不會有捉襟見肘的可能\n\n53\n00:19:26,526 --> 00:19:34,154\n到底因為你是混合埋在一起聽你這麼說是混合埋在一起嗎事業廢棄物混合它會分區像它這個實棉會先過化會有個區域去做一個不同廢棄物的掩埋\n\n54\n00:19:43,963 --> 00:19:53,392\n這次要最終演了那對啊所以你是分區啊那我所以才問你說實棉實棉的這個那一區還有多少量啊夠嗎瞬間增加了一兩萬噸\n\n55\n00:20:00,441 --> 00:20:24,161\n你提供資料給我們還有固化處理掩埋也不是永久的解決之道那對於食棉掩埋場的人員還有處理廢棄物的人員來講其實食棉廢棄物被封裝仍然有食棉的特性那你固化或封裝不佳或其他的原因導致食棉易散可能這一些工作人員他們的勞安的檢查也很重要喔\n\n56\n00:20:24,801 --> 00:20:27,984\n他們如果吸入了然後他們的風險暴露的風險就很高了那我現在問就是說你們有熱處理的試驗你們現在其實希望就是還有一種熱處理的管道來處理它在這種既有的隧道窯磚窯業協同處理廢石明瓦的浪板\n\n57\n00:20:45,558 --> 00:21:04,006\n那如果以中央驗你們現在的試驗是900度的高溫停留4個小時950度的這個停留時間4小時作為本次4艘的參數他可能這個實面纖維的破壞性的可行性到底有沒有但是你們嘗試起來900度950度都還是有減出\n\n58\n00:21:07,427 --> 00:21:32,203\n所以這個煙道間周邊的食品纖維含量都還有被檢出所以他們認為說要縮止窯熱處理的試驗計畫1000度以上一個小時才破壞得了食品纖維的結構所以你們這個熱處理的這個實驗和研究應該要加速吧而且你們退估1.56萬噸這個數量會不會短估了\n\n59\n00:21:36,894 --> 00:22:02,476\n這個是目前有沒有可能短估的這個是你們怎麼推估出來的方法怎麼推的我們基本上是靠跟地方政府合作因為其實這個有很大量是OK這是統計的我想是統計的他們實際上一個一個但是有一個對啦就是我剛剛看區公所講的你們如果請業者處理的請業者處理的我們就不用拍照我們公所不受理你要我們幫你最終處理的拿去固化掩埋的對\n\n60\n00:22:03,377 --> 00:22:27,410\n來跟我們公所登記所以你的1.56萬噸是由公所報上來或是業者來承報的嗎但是我現在要告訴你喔在鄉下地區喔很多人他不知道危害他也不知道這有風險他就踏踏的歐北等個等在那裡那個這個是短估的喔你的估值是可能短少的\n\n61\n00:22:27,950 --> 00:22:44,778\n對包委員因為我們是我是上禮拜三錄出來的那當時那個台南或嘉義有些路是不通的所以基本上他們這個數字還會更多喔量是更多喔有可能但我現在講說公所現在叫人家青菜蒸蒸的待在林道這個東西沒用的喔這個我們來解決這個東西沒用的喔我知道我知道這個我們會來處理還有喔處理業者是一回事搬運的過程公所的清潔隊隊員\n\n62\n00:22:57,264 --> 00:23:04,048\n放在他們家叫人家放在家裡家裡旁邊的孩子大家都在家裡做什麼我的意思是說其實你們要做的事情還很多你們應該要主動再更積極的去做事去宣導去教人家\n\n63\n00:23:18,155 --> 00:23:28,482\n這個事情知識體大比討論這個太陽能板的危害還更直接他就直接暴露直接是有害了對好謝謝委員這個我們會遵照處理好謝謝林委員謝謝部長我請教一下你說二十幾萬棟\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6260\t8421\t好 謝謝 是不是請我們彭部長李委員好部長好 這是颱風17急風我們看到滿目瘡痍 而且這個災損非常的嚴重不僅是家園的破損 也不只是這個光電板還有一種更致命的威脅\n29033\t49622\t那很多人大量的這個暴露在這種獨管法所列管全面的禁用而且這個巨大的風險而且馬上接觸到會直接造成傷害的有害廢棄物的風險之中你猜猜看那這些東西會是那這個物質是什麼\n51496\t65788\t比這個光電板還要更巨大的風險直接暴露會導致肺癌 喉癌 卵巢癌 還有肩皮瘤癌我講肩皮瘤癌大家聽得懂嗎包委員 失眠 嘉義台南 失眠很嚴重\n69611\t91333\t食棉它的纖維是人類頭髮的千分之一一旦吸入很難排出我們剛剛講的很容易引起肺部細胞的病變所以國際癌症研究所是列為第一類的人體致癌物我剛剛講的那幾種癌是非常\n93355\t107291\t嚴重的那面對這個可預見的公共衛生的危機這次風災不要忘了17級多少的房子以前在蓋的老舊房子屋頂屋瓦\n108412\t130264\t都是實棉瓦牆壁實棉牆這種狀況裡面我們要問部長你到底可以退估你們有沒有去評估有沒有去計算災區現在有多少的實棉廢棄物呢有報告委員3個縣市包含嘉義縣市還有台南總共有15600噸\n133243\t149512\t嘉義縣市還有台南那你們整個化管署從2019年就逐步推動實名建材的普查和管理那初期透過人力的目測進行事半調查\n150532\t157697\t那發現全國普查存在著高成本還有高樓層難以去辨識的限制所以你們現在都改用航遙測還有這個高光譜影像和衛星資料去完成屋頂實面瓦的空間分佈推估還有全台灣的資料庫建置喔那在這種狀況裡面呢2022年你們針對建築物不是只有屋頂用實面瓦包括建築物的側邊\n178351\t191423\t那其實很難去推估也很難去盤點高樓層也很困難你們用航測其實有點困難所以你們進行了這個影像辨識和無人機的調查技術開發這個地調查用APP發現\n197528\t215574\t這個開發這個限地調查限地調查用的APP工具那2023年整合了AI的這個機器學習完全側邊十面影像的自動判試技術啦這種狀況裡面這次災損年評估是一萬三千噸左右一萬五千一萬五千噸\n217915\t236149\t但我要問你你們這麼多年用了航遙測AI影像辨識技術提升了資料的掌握度但你們在這種狀況裡面根據你們調查全台灣有多少的洞屋子的結構是使用10米瓦多少洞大概有多少量全部我印象是50萬噸50萬噸\n239952\t246954\t如果以屋頂的話是屋瓦的話是20幾萬棟20幾萬棟當時我們推估就是從石棉瓦的部分來推估我看你們的資料你們根據2023年的統計和推估石棉屋頂數量還有推估的重量屋頂和重量沒有包括側邊其實還有側邊\n265420\t292318\t光是看屋頂就好了動數最多的前三個縣市是台南市高雄市雲林縣而重量最重的前三個縣市是台南市彰化縣和高雄市所以災情最嚴重的這個換句話說台南雲林彰化等等都是10米瓦的數量和重量最多的地區就符合你剛才的報告\n295501\t298166\t你們也去估出來了 那請問你們估出來後怎麼應用在這個災後的\n302416\t326894\t這個清理上面你們政策上是怎麼做因為過去從112到116總共編了行政院給了16億的經費逐年來做那一年大概是大概3億左右那這次是完全沒有辦法應付這個因為這個是主要是給民宅為主那我們今年4月有給一半的就是給畜牧業畜牧業如果他的屋頂壞掉他該得到50%的補助\n328976\t356803\t但是這次其實真的是全面性的全面性的台南嘉義特別是嘉義很嚴重對所以因為其實報告委員因為那個一頓的處理費用要四萬五啦對很貴所以目前呢我們現在估算出來整個要處理解決這次風災光是這三個縣市大概就要七八億左右所以我們現在的確是正在努力的盤點量有多少跟地方政府合作盤點多少然後確定多少然後我們\n358063\t367575\t你現在告訴我們說你的錢不夠但我的重點不在這裡而已這個很重要因為沒有錢沒有辦法去做嘛但我現在更要緊的是我跟你講大量的暴露風險 立即的風險對生命安全對健康的風險的危害是立即的\n376065\t380590\t那災後的失眠清理 你預算不夠了 那人力就足夠了嗎那不要講這個喔 還有可能會去人家家裡說你家裡破了 你的失眠碗破了我派人專業人力來處理 不可能嘛\n391241\t415351\t所以呢這個民眾要自立救濟要去修繕的時候這些人能不能瞭解實棉廢棄物怎麼處理呢你們做了什麼事我們有跟那個環保局合作主動的透過各種的媒介讓民眾知道你是實棉娃啊你如果破了你一定要找專業人來幫你講一樣臨港環保局合作來看一個區公所區公所台南市七谷區區公所\n423740\t447539\t來台南市七谷區公所他說他告訴人家怎麼處理失眠喔失眠王 失眠喔中邪沒有 第一類的致癌物質喔然後114年丹納斯颱風失眠輕孕公所登記注意事項第一個請民眾拍照留存可以到公所來登記或者是電洽環保局第二個\n448700\t473065\t儘由住家拆下的石棉自己拆的可以交到公所來定期啦你如果叫人家專業的來拆 不然不用交公所來定期第三 民眾可以先將石棉拆除 裝到太空包飼料袋或肥料袋打包後請暫置自家場所 地勢等等 等等 OK這樣做是合格的嗎\n474085\t493999\t我們都知道 失眠纖維比頭髮 頭髮的千分之一啦然後立即馬上的自己拆除 然後叫他自己打包然後立即吸入 立即接觸 立即暴露於風險當中那如果我們來看一下 我們看一下這個依據勞動部的標準 勞動部的標準\n498090\t515717\t因為剛才台南市環保局對外的這個說明的補助原則是先拆先清然後裝袋後再來通知他們公所或環保局嘉義縣的做法也大同小異要求自行拆除政府僅負責後續的清運工作不要忘了喔\n516397\t534666\t所以最危險的是拆除那個環節毫無專業的姿勢而且沒有任何防護的設備這樣的民眾他完全不知道自己的風險有多大我們看勞動部頒布的實免建材拆除危害預防指引第一條 作業人員必須穿戴個人防護裝備\n543915\t559349\t第二個隔離禁止進入及公告拆除現場的器具或防護具等未經清除附著物者不得稀疏作業場所這嚴格你看附著物的清除要隔離措施\n561516\t580963\t所以事前他還講要調查要通報然後拆除的過程拆除以前必須將實棉建材以水或化學藥劑充分濕潤而且禁止使用強力的水槍以抑制粉塵的易散然後作業場所需要雙層隔離還要將工作區完全密閉維持在負壓狀態\n587865\t606214\t防止失眠纖維外洩出口還要設置儲屋區專業的防護專業人員衣鋪路的等級穿戴動力濾鏡式呼吸防護具連身防護衣護目鏡手套等等好來這個是\n609369\t618127\t這個是勞動部頒布的你在拆除的時候你的專業人力才能操作而且必須專業的配備保護\n619386\t628328\t然後呢 你現在 你的公司剛才叫人自己聽 還要跟人說這個問題 沒有你說你自己聽 你要整個地也搞好 我們把你拿來去帶 這樣對不對然後呢 一般民眾不是這個指引適用的對象 但是他危害的風險是一致的而且他毫無知識耶 毫無常識耶\n643444\t669334\t然後公所剛好去宣導 林衛福部報警環境部要求他們要去宣導你們沒有錢給他們 然後你們就讓他們自己自生自滅污染了居家的環境 還讓這一些受災戶 風災的受災戶要成為有害有毒廢棄物的二次暴露和環境再次\n670931\t685349\t這個傷害的二次受災禍這樣對不對跟委員報告我們過去就是開始要去讓我們的實棉因為跟監獲調查要清楚的時候那我們有同時跟地方環保局來說明這個這一次有嗎\n689720\t706456\t這次有公文給他們有通知他們嗎有責成地方環保局要去通知公所嗎有告訴公所你要叫人家拆除實棉不要忘了這個風險有多大你看勞動部的指引你看\n707777\t722789\t七谷區公所 民眾自行拆除防護宣導 沒有 幾乎沒有一到叫人家怎麼穿 要怎麼口罩要N95 至少要N95什麼動力式的過濾的呼吸器 就不奢求了\n728126\t738336\t光是裝在太空包合格嗎 裝在飼料袋肥料袋 汙染不就外洩了嗎它是不是有毒有害廢棄物 因為它是纖維的問題\n746809\t767477\t所以你看網友留言說什麼網友的講法是說你公所是叫我們喔實免掉下來廢棄物加上建築上剩餘的實免全部照片跑公所登記然後把實免掉下來廢棄物加上剩餘的實免現在先放在自己家裡面用太空包 飼料袋 肥料袋\n768538\t780833\t這還在暴露喔 風險還繼續喔然後他說 理解的沒有錯吧然後鹽水區公所說 對對對 但是要裝袋喔裝袋就好了 飛到地上也可以 太空袋也可以 起到地上也可以現在他們還有人來留言是說 這個\n788275\t810031\t環保局會派業者來將實名運走其他不是實名完的自行處理重點都說這個重點都不是這個只有逼太陽能板更加立即性的傷害的暴露在更巨大的有害有毒的風險當中有沒有比太陽能板更可怕更可怕肺癌 尖皮瘤癌而且吸進去拿不出來 一輩子你怎麼做 保證你是做什麼\n817691\t837120\t各位報告我們我們這次這個上禮拜的颱風的確是沒有特別再去講不過因為在台南嘉義本來他們就是數量很來看上一張所以你來看你沒有特別去講你看這公售公售叫人走你看這建築物含實免建材拆除剛才那一張對\n839761\t864239\t隔離防護及廢棄物清理作業流程其實光是它的廢棄物都應該以厚度萬分之六十以上的塑膠袋雙層盛裝開口綁緊後戴口反摺再綑綁一次或以有封口的太空包這個盛裝盛裝外帶應有標示資訊如果有尖銳物體應置入金屬圓筒內包裝\n866340\t869743\t這是很嚴格的這個是很嚴肅的事情這個比太陽能光電對人體的立即性傷害還更大包委員我們過去這一個多禮拜是跟地方政府在盤點需要有多少量然後去爭取經費你們盤點\n890160\t895382\t是例行性盤點 不是風災這樣子沒有沒有 就是風災 風災後因為今年已經沒有預算了1.56萬噸要多少錢7、8億左右所以我們要很努力去因為可能是地方政府他的知識不夠這個部分我們會加強7、8億夠嗎我現在為什麼要講這個呢因為你們從2023年開始就補助各地方政府免費清除石棉瓦但\n917068\t921372\t民眾申請非常踴躍大家都知道說這個劇毒有害就都馬上要來申請補助要去清除所以每年經費都很快用完苗栗那種人口稀少的地區它出現了270噸的補助配額的時候5天就湧入330噸的申請量那台南市政府也表示民眾申請踴躍但每年經費很快用完\n945572\t959398\t那你們的113年度去年的減收減量回收及資源循環推動計畫編列了相關的預算大概有5.8億看起來好像不少但是你知道全國推估24萬噸總重量52.9萬噸的實棉建築這是杯水車薪\n965700\t975186\t那風災是特別事件而且瞬間短期大量的製造出了這個非立即拆除不可的實面他短期需要7.8萬噸你夠7.8萬7.8億7.8億那需要那錢要從哪裡來\n982490\t993704\t目前我們正在爭取當中爭取哪裡?現在預算都沒有沒有沒有因為這個其實是因為院長有特別交代請陳靜德政委組成一個協調會因為這是風災的特別專案然後錢要從哪裡來?第二億北京\n1000892\t1021380\t我不知道我們現在是跟地方合作因為地方先報給我們一個最大的量然後我相信可能實質的量我現在要說你們自己委託額外研究指數如果沒有這次風災然後照你平常所編列的預算去推估你們補助對象分年排出量以建築物登記時間估算屋齡建物耐用年數60年來推估的話\n1027022\t1041954\t一百五十五年才能全數自然排出一百五十五年照你們現在這種的所以實免現在你們的處理最終處理就是以固化掩埋那未來要以這個導向熱處理為主然後這個錢要花很多這個你們評估這次的這一個量1.5\n1054783\t1058310\t1.56萬噸1.56萬噸左右吧全部要採固化處理去掩埋嗎\n1067296\t1094225\t這是目前的處理方法 那我們現在嘉義台南雲林有固定掩埋的這個足夠的裝置容量嗎各位報告我們現在是有那個共同契約那分北中南然後去開這個共同契約那你們現在沒關係你們共同契約裡面你們都掩埋有哪幾個掩埋場不是每一個掩埋場都能掩埋吧那現在有三家\n1095825\t1120486\t有三個三家哪個掩埋場我不是講那個處理商啊三個掩埋場是哪三個三個它的處理場對啊掩埋場掩埋在哪裡啦哪三個地方它的掩埋容納量可以多少它是專門否實棉的嗎它是為了就是最終的掩埋的處理設施那實棉是它的其中一種那現在是有三家在沒有我現在問你是掩埋場的容量還足夠嗎\n1122079\t1144433\t那三家你唸給我聽他們容納量是多少三家是中台日友跟可寧衛可寧衛中台日友他們的掩埋場在哪裡張斌掩埋就地掩埋有掩埋的他們會先來做固化然後再來做一個掩埋好\n1146806\t1163468\t那這些瞬間大量的石棉瓦或石棉廢棄物它的空間調度這個隱埋的空間調度是不是有評估那你們評估這樣子平日的處理量能突然增加了這麼多這個會不會有捉襟見肘的可能\n1166526\t1174154\t到底因為你是混合埋在一起聽你這麼說是混合埋在一起嗎事業廢棄物混合它會分區像它這個實棉會先過化會有個區域去做一個不同廢棄物的掩埋\n1183963\t1193392\t這次要最終演了那對啊所以你是分區啊那我所以才問你說實棉實棉的這個那一區還有多少量啊夠嗎瞬間增加了一兩萬噸\n1200441\t1224161\t你提供資料給我們還有 固化處理掩埋也不是永久的解決之道那對於食棉掩埋場的人員還有處理廢棄物的人員來講其實食棉廢棄物被封裝 仍然有食棉的特性那你固化或封裝不佳或其他的原因導致食棉易散可能這一些工作人員他們的勞安的檢查也很重要喔\n1224801\t1227984\t他們如果吸入了 然後他們的風險 暴露的風險就很高了那我現在問就是說你們有熱處理的試驗你們現在其實希望就是還有一種熱處理的管道來處理它在這種既有的隧道窯 磚窯業 協同處理廢石明瓦的浪板\n1245558\t1264006\t那如果以中央驗你們現在的試驗是900度的高溫停留4個小時950度的這個停留時間4小時作為本次4艘的參數他可能這個實面纖維的破壞性的可行性到底有沒有但是你們嘗試起來900度950度都還是有減出\n1267427\t1292203\t所以這個煙道間周邊的食品纖維含量都還有被檢出所以他們認為說要縮止窯熱處理的試驗計畫1000度以上一個小時才破壞得了食品纖維的結構所以你們這個熱處理的這個實驗和研究應該要加速吧而且你們退估1.56萬噸這個數量會不會短估了\n1296894\t1322476\t這個是目前 有沒有可能短估的這個是 你們怎麼推估出來的 方法怎麼推的我們基本上是靠跟地方政府合作因為其實這個有很大量是OK 這是統計的 我想是統計的他們實際上一個一個但是有一個對啦 就是我剛剛看區公所講的你們如果請業者處理的請業者處理的我們就不用拍照 我們公所不受理你要我們幫你最終處理的拿去固化掩埋的 對\n1323377\t1347410\t來跟我們公所登記所以你的1.56萬噸是由公所報上來或是業者來承報的嗎但是我現在要告訴你喔在鄉下地區喔很多人他不知道危害他也不知道這有風險他就踏踏的歐北等個等在那裡那個這個是短估的喔你的估值是可能短少的\n1347950\t1364778\t對 包委員因為我們是我是上禮拜三錄出來的那當時那個台南或嘉義有些路是不通的所以基本上他們這個數字還會更多喔量是更多喔有可能但我現在講說公所現在叫人家青菜蒸蒸的待在林道這個東西沒用的喔這個我們來解決這個東西沒用的喔我知道我知道這個我們會來處理還有喔處理業者是一回事搬運的過程公所的清潔隊隊員\n1377264\t1384048\t放在他們家叫人家放在家裡家裡旁邊的孩子大家都在家裡做什麼我的意思是說其實你們要做的事情還很多你們應該要主動再更積極的去做事去宣導去教人家\n1398155\t1408482\t這個事情知識體大比討論這個太陽能板的危害還更直接他就直接暴露直接是有害了對好謝謝委員這個我們會遵照處理好謝謝林委員謝謝部長我請教一下你說二十幾萬棟\n","txt":"好 謝謝 是不是請我們彭部長李委員好部長好 這是颱風17急風我們看到滿目瘡痍 而且這個災損非常的嚴重不僅是家園的破損 也不只是這個光電板還有一種更致命的威脅\n那很多人大量的這個暴露在這種獨管法所列管全面的禁用而且這個巨大的風險而且馬上接觸到會直接造成傷害的有害廢棄物的風險之中你猜猜看那這些東西會是那這個物質是什麼\n比這個光電板還要更巨大的風險直接暴露會導致肺癌 喉癌 卵巢癌 還有肩皮瘤癌我講肩皮瘤癌大家聽得懂嗎包委員 失眠 嘉義台南 失眠很嚴重\n食棉它的纖維是人類頭髮的千分之一一旦吸入很難排出我們剛剛講的很容易引起肺部細胞的病變所以國際癌症研究所是列為第一類的人體致癌物我剛剛講的那幾種癌是非常\n嚴重的那面對這個可預見的公共衛生的危機這次風災不要忘了17級多少的房子以前在蓋的老舊房子屋頂屋瓦\n都是實棉瓦牆壁實棉牆這種狀況裡面我們要問部長你到底可以退估你們有沒有去評估有沒有去計算災區現在有多少的實棉廢棄物呢有報告委員3個縣市包含嘉義縣市還有台南總共有15600噸\n嘉義縣市還有台南那你們整個化管署從2019年就逐步推動實名建材的普查和管理那初期透過人力的目測進行事半調查\n那發現全國普查存在著高成本還有高樓層難以去辨識的限制所以你們現在都改用航遙測還有這個高光譜影像和衛星資料去完成屋頂實面瓦的空間分佈推估還有全台灣的資料庫建置喔那在這種狀況裡面呢2022年你們針對建築物不是只有屋頂用實面瓦包括建築物的側邊\n那其實很難去推估也很難去盤點高樓層也很困難你們用航測其實有點困難所以你們進行了這個影像辨識和無人機的調查技術開發這個地調查用APP發現\n這個開發這個限地調查限地調查用的APP工具那2023年整合了AI的這個機器學習完全側邊十面影像的自動判試技術啦這種狀況裡面這次災損年評估是一萬三千噸左右一萬五千一萬五千噸\n但我要問你你們這麼多年用了航遙測AI影像辨識技術提升了資料的掌握度但你們在這種狀況裡面根據你們調查全台灣有多少的洞屋子的結構是使用10米瓦多少洞大概有多少量全部我印象是50萬噸50萬噸\n如果以屋頂的話是屋瓦的話是20幾萬棟20幾萬棟當時我們推估就是從石棉瓦的部分來推估我看你們的資料你們根據2023年的統計和推估石棉屋頂數量還有推估的重量屋頂和重量沒有包括側邊其實還有側邊\n光是看屋頂就好了動數最多的前三個縣市是台南市高雄市雲林縣而重量最重的前三個縣市是台南市彰化縣和高雄市所以災情最嚴重的這個換句話說台南雲林彰化等等都是10米瓦的數量和重量最多的地區就符合你剛才的報告\n你們也去估出來了 那請問你們估出來後怎麼應用在這個災後的\n這個清理上面你們政策上是怎麼做因為過去從112到116總共編了行政院給了16億的經費逐年來做那一年大概是大概3億左右那這次是完全沒有辦法應付這個因為這個是主要是給民宅為主那我們今年4月有給一半的就是給畜牧業畜牧業如果他的屋頂壞掉他該得到50%的補助\n但是這次其實真的是全面性的全面性的台南嘉義特別是嘉義很嚴重對所以因為其實報告委員因為那個一頓的處理費用要四萬五啦對很貴所以目前呢我們現在估算出來整個要處理解決這次風災光是這三個縣市大概就要七八億左右所以我們現在的確是正在努力的盤點量有多少跟地方政府合作盤點多少然後確定多少然後我們\n你現在告訴我們說你的錢不夠但我的重點不在這裡而已這個很重要因為沒有錢沒有辦法去做嘛但我現在更要緊的是我跟你講大量的暴露風險 立即的風險對生命安全對健康的風險的危害是立即的\n那災後的失眠清理 你預算不夠了 那人力就足夠了嗎那不要講這個喔 還有可能會去人家家裡說你家裡破了 你的失眠碗破了我派人專業人力來處理 不可能嘛\n所以呢這個民眾要自立救濟要去修繕的時候這些人能不能瞭解實棉廢棄物怎麼處理呢你們做了什麼事我們有跟那個環保局合作主動的透過各種的媒介讓民眾知道你是實棉娃啊你如果破了你一定要找專業人來幫你講一樣臨港環保局合作來看一個區公所區公所台南市七谷區區公所\n來台南市七谷區公所他說他告訴人家怎麼處理失眠喔失眠王 失眠喔中邪沒有 第一類的致癌物質喔然後114年丹納斯颱風失眠輕孕公所登記注意事項第一個請民眾拍照留存可以到公所來登記或者是電洽環保局第二個\n儘由住家拆下的石棉自己拆的可以交到公所來定期啦你如果叫人家專業的來拆 不然不用交公所來定期第三 民眾可以先將石棉拆除 裝到太空包飼料袋或肥料袋打包後請暫置自家場所 地勢等等 等等 OK這樣做是合格的嗎\n我們都知道 失眠纖維比頭髮 頭髮的千分之一啦然後立即馬上的自己拆除 然後叫他自己打包然後立即吸入 立即接觸 立即暴露於風險當中那如果我們來看一下 我們看一下這個依據勞動部的標準 勞動部的標準\n因為剛才台南市環保局對外的這個說明的補助原則是先拆先清然後裝袋後再來通知他們公所或環保局嘉義縣的做法也大同小異要求自行拆除政府僅負責後續的清運工作不要忘了喔\n所以最危險的是拆除那個環節毫無專業的姿勢而且沒有任何防護的設備這樣的民眾他完全不知道自己的風險有多大我們看勞動部頒布的實免建材拆除危害預防指引第一條 作業人員必須穿戴個人防護裝備\n第二個隔離禁止進入及公告拆除現場的器具或防護具等未經清除附著物者不得稀疏作業場所這嚴格你看附著物的清除要隔離措施\n所以事前他還講要調查要通報然後拆除的過程拆除以前必須將實棉建材以水或化學藥劑充分濕潤而且禁止使用強力的水槍以抑制粉塵的易散然後作業場所需要雙層隔離還要將工作區完全密閉維持在負壓狀態\n防止失眠纖維外洩出口還要設置儲屋區專業的防護專業人員衣鋪路的等級穿戴動力濾鏡式呼吸防護具連身防護衣護目鏡手套等等好來這個是\n這個是勞動部頒布的你在拆除的時候你的專業人力才能操作而且必須專業的配備保護\n然後呢 你現在 你的公司剛才叫人自己聽 還要跟人說這個問題 沒有你說你自己聽 你要整個地也搞好 我們把你拿來去帶 這樣對不對然後呢 一般民眾不是這個指引適用的對象 但是他危害的風險是一致的而且他毫無知識耶 毫無常識耶\n然後公所剛好去宣導 林衛福部報警環境部要求他們要去宣導你們沒有錢給他們 然後你們就讓他們自己自生自滅污染了居家的環境 還讓這一些受災戶 風災的受災戶要成為有害有毒廢棄物的二次暴露和環境再次\n這個傷害的二次受災禍這樣對不對跟委員報告我們過去就是開始要去讓我們的實棉因為跟監獲調查要清楚的時候那我們有同時跟地方環保局來說明這個這一次有嗎\n這次有公文給他們有通知他們嗎有責成地方環保局要去通知公所嗎有告訴公所你要叫人家拆除實棉不要忘了這個風險有多大你看勞動部的指引你看\n七谷區公所 民眾自行拆除防護宣導 沒有 幾乎沒有一到叫人家怎麼穿 要怎麼口罩要N95 至少要N95什麼動力式的過濾的呼吸器 就不奢求了\n光是裝在太空包合格嗎 裝在飼料袋肥料袋 汙染不就外洩了嗎它是不是有毒有害廢棄物 因為它是纖維的問題\n所以你看網友留言說什麼網友的講法是說你公所是叫我們喔實免掉下來廢棄物加上建築上剩餘的實免全部照片跑公所登記然後把實免掉下來廢棄物加上剩餘的實免現在先放在自己家裡面用太空包 飼料袋 肥料袋\n這還在暴露喔 風險還繼續喔然後他說 理解的沒有錯吧然後鹽水區公所說 對對對 但是要裝袋喔裝袋就好了 飛到地上也可以 太空袋也可以 起到地上也可以現在他們還有人來留言是說 這個\n環保局會派業者來將實名運走其他不是實名完的自行處理重點都說這個重點都不是這個只有逼太陽能板更加立即性的傷害的暴露在更巨大的有害有毒的風險當中有沒有比太陽能板更可怕更可怕肺癌 尖皮瘤癌而且吸進去拿不出來 一輩子你怎麼做 保證你是做什麼\n各位報告我們我們這次這個上禮拜的颱風的確是沒有特別再去講不過因為在台南嘉義本來他們就是數量很來看上一張所以你來看你沒有特別去講你看這公售公售叫人走你看這建築物含實免建材拆除剛才那一張對\n隔離防護及廢棄物清理作業流程其實光是它的廢棄物都應該以厚度萬分之六十以上的塑膠袋雙層盛裝開口綁緊後戴口反摺再綑綁一次或以有封口的太空包這個盛裝盛裝外帶應有標示資訊如果有尖銳物體應置入金屬圓筒內包裝\n這是很嚴格的這個是很嚴肅的事情這個比太陽能光電對人體的立即性傷害還更大包委員我們過去這一個多禮拜是跟地方政府在盤點需要有多少量然後去爭取經費你們盤點\n是例行性盤點 不是風災這樣子沒有沒有 就是風災 風災後因為今年已經沒有預算了1.56萬噸要多少錢7、8億左右所以我們要很努力去因為可能是地方政府他的知識不夠這個部分我們會加強7、8億夠嗎我現在為什麼要講這個呢因為你們從2023年開始就補助各地方政府免費清除石棉瓦但\n民眾申請非常踴躍大家都知道說這個劇毒有害就都馬上要來申請補助要去清除所以每年經費都很快用完苗栗那種人口稀少的地區它出現了270噸的補助配額的時候5天就湧入330噸的申請量那台南市政府也表示民眾申請踴躍但每年經費很快用完\n那你們的113年度去年的減收減量回收及資源循環推動計畫編列了相關的預算大概有5.8億看起來好像不少但是你知道全國推估24萬噸總重量52.9萬噸的實棉建築這是杯水車薪\n那風災是特別事件而且瞬間短期大量的製造出了這個非立即拆除不可的實面他短期需要7.8萬噸你夠7.8萬7.8億7.8億那需要那錢要從哪裡來\n目前我們正在爭取當中爭取哪裡?現在預算都沒有沒有沒有因為這個其實是因為院長有特別交代請陳靜德政委組成一個協調會因為這是風災的特別專案然後錢要從哪裡來?第二億北京\n我不知道我們現在是跟地方合作因為地方先報給我們一個最大的量然後我相信可能實質的量我現在要說你們自己委託額外研究指數如果沒有這次風災然後照你平常所編列的預算去推估你們補助對象分年排出量以建築物登記時間估算屋齡建物耐用年數60年來推估的話\n一百五十五年才能全數自然排出一百五十五年照你們現在這種的所以實免現在你們的處理最終處理就是以固化掩埋那未來要以這個導向熱處理為主然後這個錢要花很多這個你們評估這次的這一個量1.5\n1.56萬噸1.56萬噸左右吧全部要採固化處理去掩埋嗎\n這是目前的處理方法 那我們現在嘉義台南雲林有固定掩埋的這個足夠的裝置容量嗎各位報告我們現在是有那個共同契約那分北中南然後去開這個共同契約那你們現在沒關係你們共同契約裡面你們都掩埋有哪幾個掩埋場不是每一個掩埋場都能掩埋吧那現在有三家\n有三個三家哪個掩埋場我不是講那個處理商啊三個掩埋場是哪三個三個它的處理場對啊掩埋場掩埋在哪裡啦哪三個地方它的掩埋容納量可以多少它是專門否實棉的嗎它是為了就是最終的掩埋的處理設施那實棉是它的其中一種那現在是有三家在沒有我現在問你是掩埋場的容量還足夠嗎\n那三家你唸給我聽他們容納量是多少三家是中台日友跟可寧衛可寧衛中台日友他們的掩埋場在哪裡張斌掩埋就地掩埋有掩埋的他們會先來做固化然後再來做一個掩埋好\n那這些瞬間大量的石棉瓦或石棉廢棄物它的空間調度這個隱埋的空間調度是不是有評估那你們評估這樣子平日的處理量能突然增加了這麼多這個會不會有捉襟見肘的可能\n到底因為你是混合埋在一起聽你這麼說是混合埋在一起嗎事業廢棄物混合它會分區像它這個實棉會先過化會有個區域去做一個不同廢棄物的掩埋\n這次要最終演了那對啊所以你是分區啊那我所以才問你說實棉實棉的這個那一區還有多少量啊夠嗎瞬間增加了一兩萬噸\n你提供資料給我們還有 固化處理掩埋也不是永久的解決之道那對於食棉掩埋場的人員還有處理廢棄物的人員來講其實食棉廢棄物被封裝 仍然有食棉的特性那你固化或封裝不佳或其他的原因導致食棉易散可能這一些工作人員他們的勞安的檢查也很重要喔\n他們如果吸入了 然後他們的風險 暴露的風險就很高了那我現在問就是說你們有熱處理的試驗你們現在其實希望就是還有一種熱處理的管道來處理它在這種既有的隧道窯 磚窯業 協同處理廢石明瓦的浪板\n那如果以中央驗你們現在的試驗是900度的高溫停留4個小時950度的這個停留時間4小時作為本次4艘的參數他可能這個實面纖維的破壞性的可行性到底有沒有但是你們嘗試起來900度950度都還是有減出\n所以這個煙道間周邊的食品纖維含量都還有被檢出所以他們認為說要縮止窯熱處理的試驗計畫1000度以上一個小時才破壞得了食品纖維的結構所以你們這個熱處理的這個實驗和研究應該要加速吧而且你們退估1.56萬噸這個數量會不會短估了\n這個是目前 有沒有可能短估的這個是 你們怎麼推估出來的 方法怎麼推的我們基本上是靠跟地方政府合作因為其實這個有很大量是OK 這是統計的 我想是統計的他們實際上一個一個但是有一個對啦 就是我剛剛看區公所講的你們如果請業者處理的請業者處理的我們就不用拍照 我們公所不受理你要我們幫你最終處理的拿去固化掩埋的 對\n來跟我們公所登記所以你的1.56萬噸是由公所報上來或是業者來承報的嗎但是我現在要告訴你喔在鄉下地區喔很多人他不知道危害他也不知道這有風險他就踏踏的歐北等個等在那裡那個這個是短估的喔你的估值是可能短少的\n對 包委員因為我們是我是上禮拜三錄出來的那當時那個台南或嘉義有些路是不通的所以基本上他們這個數字還會更多喔量是更多喔有可能但我現在講說公所現在叫人家青菜蒸蒸的待在林道這個東西沒用的喔這個我們來解決這個東西沒用的喔我知道我知道這個我們會來處理還有喔處理業者是一回事搬運的過程公所的清潔隊隊員\n放在他們家叫人家放在家裡家裡旁邊的孩子大家都在家裡做什麼我的意思是說其實你們要做的事情還很多你們應該要主動再更積極的去做事去宣導去教人家\n這個事情知識體大比討論這個太陽能板的危害還更直接他就直接暴露直接是有害了對好謝謝委員這個我們會遵照處理好謝謝林委員謝謝部長我請教一下你說二十幾萬棟\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.260 --> 00:08.421\n好謝謝是不是請我們彭部長李委員好部長好這是颱風17急風我們看到滿目瘡痍而且這個災損非常的嚴重不僅是家園的破損也不只是這個光電板還有一種更致命的威脅\n\n00:29.033 --> 00:49.622\n那很多人大量的這個暴露在這種獨管法所列管全面的禁用而且這個巨大的風險而且馬上接觸到會直接造成傷害的有害廢棄物的風險之中你猜猜看那這些東西會是那這個物質是什麼\n\n00:51.496 --> 01:05.788\n比這個光電板還要更巨大的風險直接暴露會導致肺癌喉癌卵巢癌還有肩皮瘤癌我講肩皮瘤癌大家聽得懂嗎包委員失眠嘉義台南失眠很嚴重\n\n01:09.611 --> 01:31.333\n食棉它的纖維是人類頭髮的千分之一一旦吸入很難排出我們剛剛講的很容易引起肺部細胞的病變所以國際癌症研究所是列為第一類的人體致癌物我剛剛講的那幾種癌是非常\n\n01:33.355 --> 01:47.291\n嚴重的那面對這個可預見的公共衛生的危機這次風災不要忘了17級多少的房子以前在蓋的老舊房子屋頂屋瓦\n\n01:48.412 --> 02:10.264\n都是實棉瓦牆壁實棉牆這種狀況裡面我們要問部長你到底可以退估你們有沒有去評估有沒有去計算災區現在有多少的實棉廢棄物呢有報告委員3個縣市包含嘉義縣市還有台南總共有15600噸\n\n02:13.243 --> 02:29.512\n嘉義縣市還有台南那你們整個化管署從2019年就逐步推動實名建材的普查和管理那初期透過人力的目測進行事半調查\n\n02:30.532 --> 02:37.697\n那發現全國普查存在著高成本還有高樓層難以去辨識的限制所以你們現在都改用航遙測還有這個高光譜影像和衛星資料去完成屋頂實面瓦的空間分佈推估還有全台灣的資料庫建置喔那在這種狀況裡面呢2022年你們針對建築物不是只有屋頂用實面瓦包括建築物的側邊\n\n02:58.351 --> 03:11.423\n那其實很難去推估也很難去盤點高樓層也很困難你們用航測其實有點困難所以你們進行了這個影像辨識和無人機的調查技術開發這個地調查用APP發現\n\n03:17.528 --> 03:35.574\n這個開發這個限地調查限地調查用的APP工具那2023年整合了AI的這個機器學習完全側邊十面影像的自動判試技術啦這種狀況裡面這次災損年評估是一萬三千噸左右一萬五千一萬五千噸\n\n03:37.915 --> 03:56.149\n但我要問你你們這麼多年用了航遙測AI影像辨識技術提升了資料的掌握度但你們在這種狀況裡面根據你們調查全台灣有多少的洞屋子的結構是使用10米瓦多少洞大概有多少量全部我印象是50萬噸50萬噸\n\n03:59.952 --> 04:06.954\n如果以屋頂的話是屋瓦的話是20幾萬棟20幾萬棟當時我們推估就是從石棉瓦的部分來推估我看你們的資料你們根據2023年的統計和推估石棉屋頂數量還有推估的重量屋頂和重量沒有包括側邊其實還有側邊\n\n04:25.420 --> 04:52.318\n光是看屋頂就好了動數最多的前三個縣市是台南市高雄市雲林縣而重量最重的前三個縣市是台南市彰化縣和高雄市所以災情最嚴重的這個換句話說台南雲林彰化等等都是10米瓦的數量和重量最多的地區就符合你剛才的報告\n\n04:55.501 --> 04:58.166\n你們也去估出來了那請問你們估出來後怎麼應用在這個災後的\n\n05:02.416 --> 05:26.894\n這個清理上面你們政策上是怎麼做因為過去從112到116總共編了行政院給了16億的經費逐年來做那一年大概是大概3億左右那這次是完全沒有辦法應付這個因為這個是主要是給民宅為主那我們今年4月有給一半的就是給畜牧業畜牧業如果他的屋頂壞掉他該得到50%的補助\n\n05:28.976 --> 05:56.803\n但是這次其實真的是全面性的全面性的台南嘉義特別是嘉義很嚴重對所以因為其實報告委員因為那個一頓的處理費用要四萬五啦對很貴所以目前呢我們現在估算出來整個要處理解決這次風災光是這三個縣市大概就要七八億左右所以我們現在的確是正在努力的盤點量有多少跟地方政府合作盤點多少然後確定多少然後我們\n\n05:58.063 --> 06:07.575\n你現在告訴我們說你的錢不夠但我的重點不在這裡而已這個很重要因為沒有錢沒有辦法去做嘛但我現在更要緊的是我跟你講大量的暴露風險立即的風險對生命安全對健康的風險的危害是立即的\n\n06:16.065 --> 06:20.590\n那災後的失眠清理你預算不夠了那人力就足夠了嗎那不要講這個喔還有可能會去人家家裡說你家裡破了你的失眠碗破了我派人專業人力來處理不可能嘛\n\n06:31.241 --> 06:55.351\n所以呢這個民眾要自立救濟要去修繕的時候這些人能不能瞭解實棉廢棄物怎麼處理呢你們做了什麼事我們有跟那個環保局合作主動的透過各種的媒介讓民眾知道你是實棉娃啊你如果破了你一定要找專業人來幫你講一樣臨港環保局合作來看一個區公所區公所台南市七谷區區公所\n\n07:03.740 --> 07:27.539\n來台南市七谷區公所他說他告訴人家怎麼處理失眠喔失眠王失眠喔中邪沒有第一類的致癌物質喔然後114年丹納斯颱風失眠輕孕公所登記注意事項第一個請民眾拍照留存可以到公所來登記或者是電洽環保局第二個\n\n07:28.700 --> 07:53.065\n儘由住家拆下的石棉自己拆的可以交到公所來定期啦你如果叫人家專業的來拆不然不用交公所來定期第三民眾可以先將石棉拆除裝到太空包飼料袋或肥料袋打包後請暫置自家場所地勢等等等等OK這樣做是合格的嗎\n\n07:54.085 --> 08:13.999\n我們都知道失眠纖維比頭髮頭髮的千分之一啦然後立即馬上的自己拆除然後叫他自己打包然後立即吸入立即接觸立即暴露於風險當中那如果我們來看一下我們看一下這個依據勞動部的標準勞動部的標準\n\n08:18.090 --> 08:35.717\n因為剛才台南市環保局對外的這個說明的補助原則是先拆先清然後裝袋後再來通知他們公所或環保局嘉義縣的做法也大同小異要求自行拆除政府僅負責後續的清運工作不要忘了喔\n\n08:36.397 --> 08:54.666\n所以最危險的是拆除那個環節毫無專業的姿勢而且沒有任何防護的設備這樣的民眾他完全不知道自己的風險有多大我們看勞動部頒布的實免建材拆除危害預防指引第一條作業人員必須穿戴個人防護裝備\n\n09:03.915 --> 09:19.349\n第二個隔離禁止進入及公告拆除現場的器具或防護具等未經清除附著物者不得稀疏作業場所這嚴格你看附著物的清除要隔離措施\n\n09:21.516 --> 09:40.963\n所以事前他還講要調查要通報然後拆除的過程拆除以前必須將實棉建材以水或化學藥劑充分濕潤而且禁止使用強力的水槍以抑制粉塵的易散然後作業場所需要雙層隔離還要將工作區完全密閉維持在負壓狀態\n\n09:47.865 --> 10:06.214\n防止失眠纖維外洩出口還要設置儲屋區專業的防護專業人員衣鋪路的等級穿戴動力濾鏡式呼吸防護具連身防護衣護目鏡手套等等好來這個是\n\n10:09.369 --> 10:18.127\n這個是勞動部頒布的你在拆除的時候你的專業人力才能操作而且必須專業的配備保護\n\n10:19.386 --> 10:28.328\n然後呢你現在你的公司剛才叫人自己聽還要跟人說這個問題沒有你說你自己聽你要整個地也搞好我們把你拿來去帶這樣對不對然後呢一般民眾不是這個指引適用的對象但是他危害的風險是一致的而且他毫無知識耶毫無常識耶\n\n10:43.444 --> 11:09.334\n然後公所剛好去宣導林衛福部報警環境部要求他們要去宣導你們沒有錢給他們然後你們就讓他們自己自生自滅污染了居家的環境還讓這一些受災戶風災的受災戶要成為有害有毒廢棄物的二次暴露和環境再次\n\n11:10.931 --> 11:25.349\n這個傷害的二次受災禍這樣對不對跟委員報告我們過去就是開始要去讓我們的實棉因為跟監獲調查要清楚的時候那我們有同時跟地方環保局來說明這個這一次有嗎\n\n11:29.720 --> 11:46.456\n這次有公文給他們有通知他們嗎有責成地方環保局要去通知公所嗎有告訴公所你要叫人家拆除實棉不要忘了這個風險有多大你看勞動部的指引你看\n\n11:47.777 --> 12:02.789\n七谷區公所民眾自行拆除防護宣導沒有幾乎沒有一到叫人家怎麼穿要怎麼口罩要N95至少要N95什麼動力式的過濾的呼吸器就不奢求了\n\n12:08.126 --> 12:18.336\n光是裝在太空包合格嗎裝在飼料袋肥料袋汙染不就外洩了嗎它是不是有毒有害廢棄物因為它是纖維的問題\n\n12:26.809 --> 12:47.477\n所以你看網友留言說什麼網友的講法是說你公所是叫我們喔實免掉下來廢棄物加上建築上剩餘的實免全部照片跑公所登記然後把實免掉下來廢棄物加上剩餘的實免現在先放在自己家裡面用太空包飼料袋肥料袋\n\n12:48.538 --> 13:00.833\n這還在暴露喔風險還繼續喔然後他說理解的沒有錯吧然後鹽水區公所說對對對但是要裝袋喔裝袋就好了飛到地上也可以太空袋也可以起到地上也可以現在他們還有人來留言是說這個\n\n13:08.275 --> 13:30.031\n環保局會派業者來將實名運走其他不是實名完的自行處理重點都說這個重點都不是這個只有逼太陽能板更加立即性的傷害的暴露在更巨大的有害有毒的風險當中有沒有比太陽能板更可怕更可怕肺癌尖皮瘤癌而且吸進去拿不出來一輩子你怎麼做保證你是做什麼\n\n13:37.691 --> 13:57.120\n各位報告我們我們這次這個上禮拜的颱風的確是沒有特別再去講不過因為在台南嘉義本來他們就是數量很來看上一張所以你來看你沒有特別去講你看這公售公售叫人走你看這建築物含實免建材拆除剛才那一張對\n\n13:59.761 --> 14:24.239\n隔離防護及廢棄物清理作業流程其實光是它的廢棄物都應該以厚度萬分之六十以上的塑膠袋雙層盛裝開口綁緊後戴口反摺再綑綁一次或以有封口的太空包這個盛裝盛裝外帶應有標示資訊如果有尖銳物體應置入金屬圓筒內包裝\n\n14:26.340 --> 14:29.743\n這是很嚴格的這個是很嚴肅的事情這個比太陽能光電對人體的立即性傷害還更大包委員我們過去這一個多禮拜是跟地方政府在盤點需要有多少量然後去爭取經費你們盤點\n\n14:50.160 --> 14:55.382\n是例行性盤點不是風災這樣子沒有沒有就是風災風災後因為今年已經沒有預算了1.56萬噸要多少錢7、8億左右所以我們要很努力去因為可能是地方政府他的知識不夠這個部分我們會加強7、8億夠嗎我現在為什麼要講這個呢因為你們從2023年開始就補助各地方政府免費清除石棉瓦但\n\n15:17.068 --> 15:21.372\n民眾申請非常踴躍大家都知道說這個劇毒有害就都馬上要來申請補助要去清除所以每年經費都很快用完苗栗那種人口稀少的地區它出現了270噸的補助配額的時候5天就湧入330噸的申請量那台南市政府也表示民眾申請踴躍但每年經費很快用完\n\n15:45.572 --> 15:59.398\n那你們的113年度去年的減收減量回收及資源循環推動計畫編列了相關的預算大概有5.8億看起來好像不少但是你知道全國推估24萬噸總重量52.9萬噸的實棉建築這是杯水車薪\n\n16:05.700 --> 16:15.186\n那風災是特別事件而且瞬間短期大量的製造出了這個非立即拆除不可的實面他短期需要7.8萬噸你夠7.8萬7.8億7.8億那需要那錢要從哪裡來\n\n16:22.490 --> 16:33.704\n目前我們正在爭取當中爭取哪裡?現在預算都沒有沒有沒有因為這個其實是因為院長有特別交代請陳靜德政委組成一個協調會因為這是風災的特別專案然後錢要從哪裡來?第二億北京\n\n16:40.892 --> 17:01.380\n我不知道我們現在是跟地方合作因為地方先報給我們一個最大的量然後我相信可能實質的量我現在要說你們自己委託額外研究指數如果沒有這次風災然後照你平常所編列的預算去推估你們補助對象分年排出量以建築物登記時間估算屋齡建物耐用年數60年來推估的話\n\n17:07.022 --> 17:21.954\n一百五十五年才能全數自然排出一百五十五年照你們現在這種的所以實免現在你們的處理最終處理就是以固化掩埋那未來要以這個導向熱處理為主然後這個錢要花很多這個你們評估這次的這一個量1.5\n\n17:34.783 --> 17:38.310\n1.56萬噸1.56萬噸左右吧全部要採固化處理去掩埋嗎\n\n17:47.296 --> 18:14.225\n這是目前的處理方法那我們現在嘉義台南雲林有固定掩埋的這個足夠的裝置容量嗎各位報告我們現在是有那個共同契約那分北中南然後去開這個共同契約那你們現在沒關係你們共同契約裡面你們都掩埋有哪幾個掩埋場不是每一個掩埋場都能掩埋吧那現在有三家\n\n18:15.825 --> 18:40.486\n有三個三家哪個掩埋場我不是講那個處理商啊三個掩埋場是哪三個三個它的處理場對啊掩埋場掩埋在哪裡啦哪三個地方它的掩埋容納量可以多少它是專門否實棉的嗎它是為了就是最終的掩埋的處理設施那實棉是它的其中一種那現在是有三家在沒有我現在問你是掩埋場的容量還足夠嗎\n\n18:42.079 --> 19:04.433\n那三家你唸給我聽他們容納量是多少三家是中台日友跟可寧衛可寧衛中台日友他們的掩埋場在哪裡張斌掩埋就地掩埋有掩埋的他們會先來做固化然後再來做一個掩埋好\n\n19:06.806 --> 19:23.468\n那這些瞬間大量的石棉瓦或石棉廢棄物它的空間調度這個隱埋的空間調度是不是有評估那你們評估這樣子平日的處理量能突然增加了這麼多這個會不會有捉襟見肘的可能\n\n19:26.526 --> 19:34.154\n到底因為你是混合埋在一起聽你這麼說是混合埋在一起嗎事業廢棄物混合它會分區像它這個實棉會先過化會有個區域去做一個不同廢棄物的掩埋\n\n19:43.963 --> 19:53.392\n這次要最終演了那對啊所以你是分區啊那我所以才問你說實棉實棉的這個那一區還有多少量啊夠嗎瞬間增加了一兩萬噸\n\n20:00.441 --> 20:24.161\n你提供資料給我們還有固化處理掩埋也不是永久的解決之道那對於食棉掩埋場的人員還有處理廢棄物的人員來講其實食棉廢棄物被封裝仍然有食棉的特性那你固化或封裝不佳或其他的原因導致食棉易散可能這一些工作人員他們的勞安的檢查也很重要喔\n\n20:24.801 --> 20:27.984\n他們如果吸入了然後他們的風險暴露的風險就很高了那我現在問就是說你們有熱處理的試驗你們現在其實希望就是還有一種熱處理的管道來處理它在這種既有的隧道窯磚窯業協同處理廢石明瓦的浪板\n\n20:45.558 --> 21:04.006\n那如果以中央驗你們現在的試驗是900度的高溫停留4個小時950度的這個停留時間4小時作為本次4艘的參數他可能這個實面纖維的破壞性的可行性到底有沒有但是你們嘗試起來900度950度都還是有減出\n\n21:07.427 --> 21:32.203\n所以這個煙道間周邊的食品纖維含量都還有被檢出所以他們認為說要縮止窯熱處理的試驗計畫1000度以上一個小時才破壞得了食品纖維的結構所以你們這個熱處理的這個實驗和研究應該要加速吧而且你們退估1.56萬噸這個數量會不會短估了\n\n21:36.894 --> 22:02.476\n這個是目前有沒有可能短估的這個是你們怎麼推估出來的方法怎麼推的我們基本上是靠跟地方政府合作因為其實這個有很大量是OK這是統計的我想是統計的他們實際上一個一個但是有一個對啦就是我剛剛看區公所講的你們如果請業者處理的請業者處理的我們就不用拍照我們公所不受理你要我們幫你最終處理的拿去固化掩埋的對\n\n22:03.377 --> 22:27.410\n來跟我們公所登記所以你的1.56萬噸是由公所報上來或是業者來承報的嗎但是我現在要告訴你喔在鄉下地區喔很多人他不知道危害他也不知道這有風險他就踏踏的歐北等個等在那裡那個這個是短估的喔你的估值是可能短少的\n\n22:27.950 --> 22:44.778\n對包委員因為我們是我是上禮拜三錄出來的那當時那個台南或嘉義有些路是不通的所以基本上他們這個數字還會更多喔量是更多喔有可能但我現在講說公所現在叫人家青菜蒸蒸的待在林道這個東西沒用的喔這個我們來解決這個東西沒用的喔我知道我知道這個我們會來處理還有喔處理業者是一回事搬運的過程公所的清潔隊隊員\n\n22:57.264 --> 23:04.048\n放在他們家叫人家放在家裡家裡旁邊的孩子大家都在家裡做什麼我的意思是說其實你們要做的事情還很多你們應該要主動再更積極的去做事去宣導去教人家\n\n23:18.155 --> 23:28.482\n這個事情知識體大比討論這個太陽能板的危害還更直接他就直接暴露直接是有害了對好謝謝委員這個我們會遵照處理好謝謝林委員謝謝部長我請教一下你說二十幾萬棟\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.26,"end":8.421,"text":"好 謝謝 是不是請我們彭部長李委員好部長好 這是颱風17急風我們看到滿目瘡痍 而且這個災損非常的嚴重不僅是家園的破損 也不只是這個光電板還有一種更致命的威脅"},{"start":29.033,"end":49.622,"text":"那很多人大量的這個暴露在這種獨管法所列管全面的禁用而且這個巨大的風險而且馬上接觸到會直接造成傷害的有害廢棄物的風險之中你猜猜看那這些東西會是那這個物質是什麼"},{"start":51.496,"end":65.788,"text":"比這個光電板還要更巨大的風險直接暴露會導致肺癌 喉癌 卵巢癌 還有肩皮瘤癌我講肩皮瘤癌大家聽得懂嗎包委員 失眠 嘉義台南 失眠很嚴重"},{"start":69.611,"end":91.333,"text":"食棉它的纖維是人類頭髮的千分之一一旦吸入很難排出我們剛剛講的很容易引起肺部細胞的病變所以國際癌症研究所是列為第一類的人體致癌物我剛剛講的那幾種癌是非常"},{"start":93.355,"end":107.291,"text":"嚴重的那面對這個可預見的公共衛生的危機這次風災不要忘了17級多少的房子以前在蓋的老舊房子屋頂屋瓦"},{"start":108.412,"end":130.264,"text":"都是實棉瓦牆壁實棉牆這種狀況裡面我們要問部長你到底可以退估你們有沒有去評估有沒有去計算災區現在有多少的實棉廢棄物呢有報告委員3個縣市包含嘉義縣市還有台南總共有15600噸"},{"start":133.243,"end":149.512,"text":"嘉義縣市還有台南那你們整個化管署從2019年就逐步推動實名建材的普查和管理那初期透過人力的目測進行事半調查"},{"start":150.532,"end":157.697,"text":"那發現全國普查存在著高成本還有高樓層難以去辨識的限制所以你們現在都改用航遙測還有這個高光譜影像和衛星資料去完成屋頂實面瓦的空間分佈推估還有全台灣的資料庫建置喔那在這種狀況裡面呢2022年你們針對建築物不是只有屋頂用實面瓦包括建築物的側邊"},{"start":178.351,"end":191.423,"text":"那其實很難去推估也很難去盤點高樓層也很困難你們用航測其實有點困難所以你們進行了這個影像辨識和無人機的調查技術開發這個地調查用APP發現"},{"start":197.528,"end":215.574,"text":"這個開發這個限地調查限地調查用的APP工具那2023年整合了AI的這個機器學習完全側邊十面影像的自動判試技術啦這種狀況裡面這次災損年評估是一萬三千噸左右一萬五千一萬五千噸"},{"start":217.915,"end":236.149,"text":"但我要問你你們這麼多年用了航遙測AI影像辨識技術提升了資料的掌握度但你們在這種狀況裡面根據你們調查全台灣有多少的洞屋子的結構是使用10米瓦多少洞大概有多少量全部我印象是50萬噸50萬噸"},{"start":239.952,"end":246.954,"text":"如果以屋頂的話是屋瓦的話是20幾萬棟20幾萬棟當時我們推估就是從石棉瓦的部分來推估我看你們的資料你們根據2023年的統計和推估石棉屋頂數量還有推估的重量屋頂和重量沒有包括側邊其實還有側邊"},{"start":265.42,"end":292.318,"text":"光是看屋頂就好了動數最多的前三個縣市是台南市高雄市雲林縣而重量最重的前三個縣市是台南市彰化縣和高雄市所以災情最嚴重的這個換句話說台南雲林彰化等等都是10米瓦的數量和重量最多的地區就符合你剛才的報告"},{"start":295.501,"end":298.166,"text":"你們也去估出來了 那請問你們估出來後怎麼應用在這個災後的"},{"start":302.416,"end":326.894,"text":"這個清理上面你們政策上是怎麼做因為過去從112到116總共編了行政院給了16億的經費逐年來做那一年大概是大概3億左右那這次是完全沒有辦法應付這個因為這個是主要是給民宅為主那我們今年4月有給一半的就是給畜牧業畜牧業如果他的屋頂壞掉他該得到50%的補助"},{"start":328.976,"end":356.803,"text":"但是這次其實真的是全面性的全面性的台南嘉義特別是嘉義很嚴重對所以因為其實報告委員因為那個一頓的處理費用要四萬五啦對很貴所以目前呢我們現在估算出來整個要處理解決這次風災光是這三個縣市大概就要七八億左右所以我們現在的確是正在努力的盤點量有多少跟地方政府合作盤點多少然後確定多少然後我們"},{"start":358.063,"end":367.575,"text":"你現在告訴我們說你的錢不夠但我的重點不在這裡而已這個很重要因為沒有錢沒有辦法去做嘛但我現在更要緊的是我跟你講大量的暴露風險 立即的風險對生命安全對健康的風險的危害是立即的"},{"start":376.065,"end":380.59,"text":"那災後的失眠清理 你預算不夠了 那人力就足夠了嗎那不要講這個喔 還有可能會去人家家裡說你家裡破了 你的失眠碗破了我派人專業人力來處理 不可能嘛"},{"start":391.241,"end":415.351,"text":"所以呢這個民眾要自立救濟要去修繕的時候這些人能不能瞭解實棉廢棄物怎麼處理呢你們做了什麼事我們有跟那個環保局合作主動的透過各種的媒介讓民眾知道你是實棉娃啊你如果破了你一定要找專業人來幫你講一樣臨港環保局合作來看一個區公所區公所台南市七谷區區公所"},{"start":423.74,"end":447.539,"text":"來台南市七谷區公所他說他告訴人家怎麼處理失眠喔失眠王 失眠喔中邪沒有 第一類的致癌物質喔然後114年丹納斯颱風失眠輕孕公所登記注意事項第一個請民眾拍照留存可以到公所來登記或者是電洽環保局第二個"},{"start":448.7,"end":473.065,"text":"儘由住家拆下的石棉自己拆的可以交到公所來定期啦你如果叫人家專業的來拆 不然不用交公所來定期第三 民眾可以先將石棉拆除 裝到太空包飼料袋或肥料袋打包後請暫置自家場所 地勢等等 等等 OK這樣做是合格的嗎"},{"start":474.085,"end":493.999,"text":"我們都知道 失眠纖維比頭髮 頭髮的千分之一啦然後立即馬上的自己拆除 然後叫他自己打包然後立即吸入 立即接觸 立即暴露於風險當中那如果我們來看一下 我們看一下這個依據勞動部的標準 勞動部的標準"},{"start":498.09,"end":515.717,"text":"因為剛才台南市環保局對外的這個說明的補助原則是先拆先清然後裝袋後再來通知他們公所或環保局嘉義縣的做法也大同小異要求自行拆除政府僅負責後續的清運工作不要忘了喔"},{"start":516.397,"end":534.666,"text":"所以最危險的是拆除那個環節毫無專業的姿勢而且沒有任何防護的設備這樣的民眾他完全不知道自己的風險有多大我們看勞動部頒布的實免建材拆除危害預防指引第一條 作業人員必須穿戴個人防護裝備"},{"start":543.915,"end":559.349,"text":"第二個隔離禁止進入及公告拆除現場的器具或防護具等未經清除附著物者不得稀疏作業場所這嚴格你看附著物的清除要隔離措施"},{"start":561.516,"end":580.963,"text":"所以事前他還講要調查要通報然後拆除的過程拆除以前必須將實棉建材以水或化學藥劑充分濕潤而且禁止使用強力的水槍以抑制粉塵的易散然後作業場所需要雙層隔離還要將工作區完全密閉維持在負壓狀態"},{"start":587.865,"end":606.214,"text":"防止失眠纖維外洩出口還要設置儲屋區專業的防護專業人員衣鋪路的等級穿戴動力濾鏡式呼吸防護具連身防護衣護目鏡手套等等好來這個是"},{"start":609.369,"end":618.127,"text":"這個是勞動部頒布的你在拆除的時候你的專業人力才能操作而且必須專業的配備保護"},{"start":619.386,"end":628.328,"text":"然後呢 你現在 你的公司剛才叫人自己聽 還要跟人說這個問題 沒有你說你自己聽 你要整個地也搞好 我們把你拿來去帶 這樣對不對然後呢 一般民眾不是這個指引適用的對象 但是他危害的風險是一致的而且他毫無知識耶 毫無常識耶"},{"start":643.444,"end":669.334,"text":"然後公所剛好去宣導 林衛福部報警環境部要求他們要去宣導你們沒有錢給他們 然後你們就讓他們自己自生自滅污染了居家的環境 還讓這一些受災戶 風災的受災戶要成為有害有毒廢棄物的二次暴露和環境再次"},{"start":670.931,"end":685.349,"text":"這個傷害的二次受災禍這樣對不對跟委員報告我們過去就是開始要去讓我們的實棉因為跟監獲調查要清楚的時候那我們有同時跟地方環保局來說明這個這一次有嗎"},{"start":689.72,"end":706.456,"text":"這次有公文給他們有通知他們嗎有責成地方環保局要去通知公所嗎有告訴公所你要叫人家拆除實棉不要忘了這個風險有多大你看勞動部的指引你看"},{"start":707.777,"end":722.789,"text":"七谷區公所 民眾自行拆除防護宣導 沒有 幾乎沒有一到叫人家怎麼穿 要怎麼口罩要N95 至少要N95什麼動力式的過濾的呼吸器 就不奢求了"},{"start":728.126,"end":738.336,"text":"光是裝在太空包合格嗎 裝在飼料袋肥料袋 汙染不就外洩了嗎它是不是有毒有害廢棄物 因為它是纖維的問題"},{"start":746.809,"end":767.477,"text":"所以你看網友留言說什麼網友的講法是說你公所是叫我們喔實免掉下來廢棄物加上建築上剩餘的實免全部照片跑公所登記然後把實免掉下來廢棄物加上剩餘的實免現在先放在自己家裡面用太空包 飼料袋 肥料袋"},{"start":768.538,"end":780.833,"text":"這還在暴露喔 風險還繼續喔然後他說 理解的沒有錯吧然後鹽水區公所說 對對對 但是要裝袋喔裝袋就好了 飛到地上也可以 太空袋也可以 起到地上也可以現在他們還有人來留言是說 這個"},{"start":788.275,"end":810.031,"text":"環保局會派業者來將實名運走其他不是實名完的自行處理重點都說這個重點都不是這個只有逼太陽能板更加立即性的傷害的暴露在更巨大的有害有毒的風險當中有沒有比太陽能板更可怕更可怕肺癌 尖皮瘤癌而且吸進去拿不出來 一輩子你怎麼做 保證你是做什麼"},{"start":817.691,"end":837.12,"text":"各位報告我們我們這次這個上禮拜的颱風的確是沒有特別再去講不過因為在台南嘉義本來他們就是數量很來看上一張所以你來看你沒有特別去講你看這公售公售叫人走你看這建築物含實免建材拆除剛才那一張對"},{"start":839.761,"end":864.239,"text":"隔離防護及廢棄物清理作業流程其實光是它的廢棄物都應該以厚度萬分之六十以上的塑膠袋雙層盛裝開口綁緊後戴口反摺再綑綁一次或以有封口的太空包這個盛裝盛裝外帶應有標示資訊如果有尖銳物體應置入金屬圓筒內包裝"},{"start":866.34,"end":869.743,"text":"這是很嚴格的這個是很嚴肅的事情這個比太陽能光電對人體的立即性傷害還更大包委員我們過去這一個多禮拜是跟地方政府在盤點需要有多少量然後去爭取經費你們盤點"},{"start":890.16,"end":895.382,"text":"是例行性盤點 不是風災這樣子沒有沒有 就是風災 風災後因為今年已經沒有預算了1.56萬噸要多少錢7、8億左右所以我們要很努力去因為可能是地方政府他的知識不夠這個部分我們會加強7、8億夠嗎我現在為什麼要講這個呢因為你們從2023年開始就補助各地方政府免費清除石棉瓦但"},{"start":917.068,"end":921.372,"text":"民眾申請非常踴躍大家都知道說這個劇毒有害就都馬上要來申請補助要去清除所以每年經費都很快用完苗栗那種人口稀少的地區它出現了270噸的補助配額的時候5天就湧入330噸的申請量那台南市政府也表示民眾申請踴躍但每年經費很快用完"},{"start":945.572,"end":959.398,"text":"那你們的113年度去年的減收減量回收及資源循環推動計畫編列了相關的預算大概有5.8億看起來好像不少但是你知道全國推估24萬噸總重量52.9萬噸的實棉建築這是杯水車薪"},{"start":965.7,"end":975.186,"text":"那風災是特別事件而且瞬間短期大量的製造出了這個非立即拆除不可的實面他短期需要7.8萬噸你夠7.8萬7.8億7.8億那需要那錢要從哪裡來"},{"start":982.49,"end":993.704,"text":"目前我們正在爭取當中爭取哪裡?現在預算都沒有沒有沒有因為這個其實是因為院長有特別交代請陳靜德政委組成一個協調會因為這是風災的特別專案然後錢要從哪裡來?第二億北京"},{"start":1000.892,"end":1021.38,"text":"我不知道我們現在是跟地方合作因為地方先報給我們一個最大的量然後我相信可能實質的量我現在要說你們自己委託額外研究指數如果沒有這次風災然後照你平常所編列的預算去推估你們補助對象分年排出量以建築物登記時間估算屋齡建物耐用年數60年來推估的話"},{"start":1027.022,"end":1041.954,"text":"一百五十五年才能全數自然排出一百五十五年照你們現在這種的所以實免現在你們的處理最終處理就是以固化掩埋那未來要以這個導向熱處理為主然後這個錢要花很多這個你們評估這次的這一個量1.5"},{"start":1054.783,"end":1058.31,"text":"1.56萬噸1.56萬噸左右吧全部要採固化處理去掩埋嗎"},{"start":1067.296,"end":1094.225,"text":"這是目前的處理方法 那我們現在嘉義台南雲林有固定掩埋的這個足夠的裝置容量嗎各位報告我們現在是有那個共同契約那分北中南然後去開這個共同契約那你們現在沒關係你們共同契約裡面你們都掩埋有哪幾個掩埋場不是每一個掩埋場都能掩埋吧那現在有三家"},{"start":1095.825,"end":1120.486,"text":"有三個三家哪個掩埋場我不是講那個處理商啊三個掩埋場是哪三個三個它的處理場對啊掩埋場掩埋在哪裡啦哪三個地方它的掩埋容納量可以多少它是專門否實棉的嗎它是為了就是最終的掩埋的處理設施那實棉是它的其中一種那現在是有三家在沒有我現在問你是掩埋場的容量還足夠嗎"},{"start":1122.079,"end":1144.433,"text":"那三家你唸給我聽他們容納量是多少三家是中台日友跟可寧衛可寧衛中台日友他們的掩埋場在哪裡張斌掩埋就地掩埋有掩埋的他們會先來做固化然後再來做一個掩埋好"},{"start":1146.806,"end":1163.468,"text":"那這些瞬間大量的石棉瓦或石棉廢棄物它的空間調度這個隱埋的空間調度是不是有評估那你們評估這樣子平日的處理量能突然增加了這麼多這個會不會有捉襟見肘的可能"},{"start":1166.526,"end":1174.154,"text":"到底因為你是混合埋在一起聽你這麼說是混合埋在一起嗎事業廢棄物混合它會分區像它這個實棉會先過化會有個區域去做一個不同廢棄物的掩埋"},{"start":1183.963,"end":1193.392,"text":"這次要最終演了那對啊所以你是分區啊那我所以才問你說實棉實棉的這個那一區還有多少量啊夠嗎瞬間增加了一兩萬噸"},{"start":1200.441,"end":1224.161,"text":"你提供資料給我們還有 固化處理掩埋也不是永久的解決之道那對於食棉掩埋場的人員還有處理廢棄物的人員來講其實食棉廢棄物被封裝 仍然有食棉的特性那你固化或封裝不佳或其他的原因導致食棉易散可能這一些工作人員他們的勞安的檢查也很重要喔"},{"start":1224.801,"end":1227.984,"text":"他們如果吸入了 然後他們的風險 暴露的風險就很高了那我現在問就是說你們有熱處理的試驗你們現在其實希望就是還有一種熱處理的管道來處理它在這種既有的隧道窯 磚窯業 協同處理廢石明瓦的浪板"},{"start":1245.558,"end":1264.006,"text":"那如果以中央驗你們現在的試驗是900度的高溫停留4個小時950度的這個停留時間4小時作為本次4艘的參數他可能這個實面纖維的破壞性的可行性到底有沒有但是你們嘗試起來900度950度都還是有減出"},{"start":1267.427,"end":1292.203,"text":"所以這個煙道間周邊的食品纖維含量都還有被檢出所以他們認為說要縮止窯熱處理的試驗計畫1000度以上一個小時才破壞得了食品纖維的結構所以你們這個熱處理的這個實驗和研究應該要加速吧而且你們退估1.56萬噸這個數量會不會短估了"},{"start":1296.894,"end":1322.476,"text":"這個是目前 有沒有可能短估的這個是 你們怎麼推估出來的 方法怎麼推的我們基本上是靠跟地方政府合作因為其實這個有很大量是OK 這是統計的 我想是統計的他們實際上一個一個但是有一個對啦 就是我剛剛看區公所講的你們如果請業者處理的請業者處理的我們就不用拍照 我們公所不受理你要我們幫你最終處理的拿去固化掩埋的 對"},{"start":1323.377,"end":1347.41,"text":"來跟我們公所登記所以你的1.56萬噸是由公所報上來或是業者來承報的嗎但是我現在要告訴你喔在鄉下地區喔很多人他不知道危害他也不知道這有風險他就踏踏的歐北等個等在那裡那個這個是短估的喔你的估值是可能短少的"},{"start":1347.95,"end":1364.778,"text":"對 包委員因為我們是我是上禮拜三錄出來的那當時那個台南或嘉義有些路是不通的所以基本上他們這個數字還會更多喔量是更多喔有可能但我現在講說公所現在叫人家青菜蒸蒸的待在林道這個東西沒用的喔這個我們來解決這個東西沒用的喔我知道我知道這個我們會來處理還有喔處理業者是一回事搬運的過程公所的清潔隊隊員"},{"start":1377.264,"end":1384.048,"text":"放在他們家叫人家放在家裡家裡旁邊的孩子大家都在家裡做什麼我的意思是說其實你們要做的事情還很多你們應該要主動再更積極的去做事去宣導去教人家"},{"start":1398.155,"end":1408.482,"text":"這個事情知識體大比討論這個太陽能板的危害還更直接他就直接暴露直接是有害了對好謝謝委員這個我們會遵照處理好謝謝林委員謝謝部長我請教一下你說二十幾萬棟"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":932,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時42分）好，謝謝，請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長好。這次颱風的陣風高達17級，我們看到是滿目瘡痍，而且災損非常的嚴重，不僅家園破損，也不只是光電板，還有一種更致命的威脅，很多人大量地暴露在這種毒管法所列管、全面禁用，接觸到會直接造成傷害的有害廢棄物的巨大風險之中，你猜猜看這個物質是什麼？比光電板還要更巨大的風險，直接暴露會導致肺癌、喉癌、卵巢癌，還有間皮瘤癌，我講間皮瘤癌，大家就聽懂了。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，石綿。"],["林委員淑芬：石綿，對。"],["彭部長啓明：嘉義、臺南。"],["林委員淑芬：石綿很嚴重，石綿的纖維是人類頭髮的千分之一，一旦吸入很難排出，我們剛剛講了，很容易引起肺部細胞的病變，所以國際癌症研究署是列為第一級的人體致癌物，我剛剛講的那幾種癌是非常嚴重的。面對這個可預見的公共衛生危機，這次風災不要忘了，17級陣風，多少以前蓋的老舊房子，屋頂、屋瓦都是石綿瓦、牆壁也是石綿牆。在這種狀況裡面，我們要問部長，你到底可不可以推估，你們有沒有去評估、有沒有去計算，災區現在有多少石綿廢棄物呢？"],["彭部長啓明：有，報告委員，有3個縣市，包含嘉義縣市，還有臺南，總共有1萬5,600噸。"],["林委員淑芬：嘉義？"],["彭部長啓明：嘉義縣市，還有臺南。"],["林委員淑芬：嘉義縣市，還有臺南？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["林委員淑芬：你們化管署從2019年就逐步推動石綿建材的普查和管理，初期透過人力的目測進行試辦調查，發現全國普查存在著高成本，還有高樓層難以辨識的限制，所以你們現在都改用航遙測、高光譜影像和衛星資料，去完成屋頂石綿瓦的空間分布推估，還有全臺灣的資料庫建置。在這種狀況裡面，2022年你們針對的建築物不是只有屋頂用石綿瓦，包括建築物的側邊，其實很難去推估，也很難去盤點，高樓層也很困難，你們用航測其實也有點困難，所以你們以影像辨識和無人機的調查技術，開發現地調查用的app工具，2023年整合了AI的機器學習，完成側邊石綿影像的自動辨識技術。在這種狀況裡面，這次災損你們評估是1萬3,000噸左右？"],["彭部長啓明：1萬5,000噸。"],["林委員淑芬：1萬5,000噸？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["林委員淑芬：但我要問你，你們這麼多年用航遙測、AI影像辨識技術，提升了資料的掌握度，但你們在這種狀況裡面，根據你們的調查，全臺灣有多少棟屋子的結構是使用石綿瓦？大概有多少量？全部。"],["彭部長啓明：我印象是50萬噸。"],["林委員淑芬：50萬噸？"],["謝署長燕儒：如果以屋頂、屋瓦的話是二十幾萬棟。"],["林委員淑芬：二十幾萬棟？"],["謝署長燕儒：對，當時我們就是從石綿瓦的部分來推估。"],["林委員淑芬：我看你們的資料，根據2023年的統計和推估，石綿屋頂數量及推估的重量，沒有包括側邊，其實還有側邊啦……"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["林委員淑芬：光是看屋頂就好了，棟數最多的前三個縣市是臺南市、高雄市及雲林縣，而重量最重的前三個縣市是臺南市、彰化縣及高雄市。換句話說，災情最嚴重的臺南、雲林、彰化等等都是石綿瓦數量和重量最多的地區，就符合你剛才的報告嘛！你們也估出來了，請問你們估出來以後，怎麼應用在災後的清理上面？你們政策上是怎麼做？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，從112年到116年，行政院總共給了16億的經費要逐年來做，一年大概是3億左右，但完全沒有辦法應付這一次的情況，因為這個主要以協助民宅清運為主，我們今年4月也有給畜牧業，畜牧業如果屋頂壞掉，可以得到50%的補助，但是這一次真的是滿目瘡痍……"],["林委員淑芬：全面性的！"],["彭部長啓明：全面性的，所以我們……"],["林委員淑芬：臺南、嘉義，特別是嘉義很嚴重。"],["彭部長啓明：對，報告委員，因為1噸的處理費用要4.5萬，很貴，目前我們估算出來，整個要處理解決這次風災的部分，光是這三個縣市大概就要七、八億左右，所以我們現在的確正在努力的盤點量有多少，跟地方政府合作去進行盤點，然後確定多少，然後我們申請……"],["林委員淑芬：你現在告訴我們說你的錢不夠，但我的重點不在這裡而已，這個很重要，因為沒有錢就沒有辦法去做嘛，但現在更要緊的是大量暴露的風險、立即的風險，對生命安全、對健康的風險危害是立即的。災後的石綿清理，你預算不夠了，人力就足夠了嗎？你們有可能去民眾家中說你的屋頂飛掉了、石綿瓦飛掉了，我派專業人力來幫你處理，不可能嘛！所以民眾要自力救濟去修繕的時候，這些人能不能了解石綿廢棄物怎麼處理呢？你們做了什麼事？"],["彭部長啓明：我們有跟環保局合作，主動的透過各種媒介，讓民眾知道自己的建材是石綿瓦，如果破損了，一定要找專業人來幫你處理。"],["林委員淑芬：真的嗎？你說你們跟環保局合作，我們來看一下區公所的作法。臺南市七股區公所告訴民眾怎麼處理石綿，石綿瓦、石綿喔，會罹癌的喔，這是第一級的致癌物質。他們公布了114年丹娜絲颱風石綿清運公所登記注意事項：第一，請民眾拍照留存，可至公所登記或電洽環保局。第二，僅由住家拆下之石綿可至公所登記；如為營業中的工廠或畜牧業等拆下則不得至公所登記。第三，民眾可先將石綿拆除裝至太空包、飼料袋或肥料袋，打包後請先暫置自家場所。後面還有第四點到第六點。請問這樣做是合格的嗎？我們都知道石綿纖維比頭髮細，是頭髮的千分之一啦，叫他們立即自己拆除、自己打包，這樣會立即吸入、立即接觸，然後立即暴露於風險當中！臺南市環保局對外說明的補助原則是先拆先清，裝袋後再通知他們公所或環保局；嘉義縣的作法也大同小異，要求自行拆除，政府僅負責後續的清運工作。不要忘了，最危險的是拆除那一個環節，毫無專業知識，而且沒有任何防護的設備，這樣的民眾完全不知道自己的風險有多大。","我們來看勞動部頒布的石綿建材拆除作業危害預防指引，有關拆除作業時的重要措施包括：第一個是作業人員必須穿戴個人防護裝備；第二個是隔離禁止進入及公告；第三個是拆除作業使用的器具或防護具等未經清除附著物者不得攜出作業場所。這麼嚴格，附著物的清除要有隔離措施耶！事前還包括要調查、要通報，然後拆除的過程，拆除以前必須將石綿建材以水或化學藥劑充分溼潤，而且禁止使用強力水槍，以抑制粉塵的逸散。然後作業場所需要雙層隔離，還要將工作區完全密閉，維持在負壓狀態，防止石綿纖維外洩，出口還要設置除污區。有關專業的防護，專業人員依暴露的等級穿戴動力濾淨式呼吸防護具，還有連身防護衣、護目鏡、手套等等。這個是勞動部頒布的，在拆除的時候，必須是專業人力才能操作，而且必須有專業的配備保護。但是你們現在的作法是公所叫民眾自己拆除，有沒有跟人家說這個問題？沒有！叫民眾自己拆下來後裝在袋子裡交給我們，我們幫你拿去掩埋，這樣對嗎？一般民眾不是這個指引適用的對象，但是他危害的風險是一致的，而且他們毫無知識、毫無常識耶，公所有去宣導嗎？環境部有要求他們要去宣導？你們沒有錢給他們，就讓他們自己自生自滅，污染了居家的環境，還讓這些風災的受災戶成為在有害、有毒廢棄物暴露環境下受到傷害的二次受災戶，這樣對嗎？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，我們過去開始要讓我們的石綿……因為經過調查要清除的時候，我們有同時跟地方環保局來說明拆除時要注意……"],["林委員淑芬：這一次有嗎？這一次有公文給他們，有通知他們嗎？有責成地方環保局要去通知公所嗎？有告訴公所叫民眾拆除石綿時，不要忘了這個風險有多大？你看勞動部的指引，你再看七股區公所叫民眾自行拆除，防護宣導的部分幾乎沒有！他有叫民眾要穿防護衣、口罩要戴N95嗎？至少要N95，什麼動力式的、過濾的呼吸器就不奢求了，但他們公告的注意事項只叫民眾自己拆除後裝在太空包，太空包合格嗎？公所這樣說對嗎？光是裝在太空包合格嗎？裝在飼料袋、肥料袋，污染不就外洩了嗎？它是不是有毒有害廢棄物？是不是？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：它是有害，因為它的纖維問題，所以要包覆好。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊，有害啊！你看網友留言說什麼，網友的講法是說，公所叫我們把石綿掉下來的廢棄物，加上建築上剩餘的石綿全部照片，跑去公所登記，然後把石綿掉下來廢棄物加建物上剩餘的石綿先放在自己家裡面，用太空包、飼料袋、肥料袋，這還在暴露，風險還繼續喔，然後他問理解的沒有錯吧？然後鹽水區公所說「對，但是要裝袋喔」。裝袋就好了，肥料袋也可以，太空袋也可以，飼料袋也可以。另外還有人留言說環保局會派業者來將石綿瓦運走，其他不是石綿瓦的自行處理。重點都說這個，但重點就不是這個啊！這是比太陽能板更加立即性的傷害，是暴露在更巨大的有害、有毒的風險當中，這有沒有比太陽能板更可怕？更可怕啊！肺癌、間皮瘤癌，而且吸進去拿不出來，一輩子，你們有去做嗎？部長，你們做了什麼？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，我們對於上禮拜的颱風的確是沒有特別再去講，不過，因為臺南、嘉義本來他們就是數量很多的，所以會依照之前的步驟……"],["林委員淑芬：你沒有特別去講，請你看一下公所叫人做的方式，而建築物含石綿建材拆除、隔離防護及廢棄物清理作業流程有規定，含石綿廢棄物應以厚度萬分之六十公分以上塑膠袋雙層盛裝，開口綁緊後，袋口反折再綑綁一次，或以有封口之太空包盛裝，盛裝外袋應有標示資訊。如有尖銳物體，應置入金屬圓桶內包裝。這是很嚴格的，這個是很嚴肅的事情，這個比太陽能光電對人體造成的立即性傷害還更大耶！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們過去這一個多禮拜是跟地方政府在盤點有多少量，然後去爭取經費，現在……"],["林委員淑芬：你們的盤點是例行性盤點，不是風災……"],["彭部長啓明：No、No、No，沒有、沒有，就是風災，風災後……"],["林委員淑芬：風災？OK。"],["彭部長啓明：因為今年已經沒有預算了。"],["林委員淑芬：1.56萬噸。"],["彭部長啓明：對，需要經費……"],["林委員淑芬：要多少錢？"],["彭部長啓明：七、八億左右，所以我們要很努力，因為可能是地方政府的知識不夠，這個部分我們會加強。"],["林委員淑芬：七、八億夠嗎？我現在為什麼會講這個？"],["彭部長啓明：這是只有算這三個縣市。"],["林委員淑芬：因為你們從2023年開始就補助各地方政府免費清除石綿瓦，民眾申請非常踴躍，大家一知道這個是劇毒、有害，就都馬上要申請補助去清除，所以每年經費都很快用完。苗栗那種人口稀少的地區，出現了270噸的補助配額的時候，5天就湧入330噸的申請量；臺南市政府也表示，民眾申請踴躍，每年經費很快用完。你們113年度的減量回收及資源循環推動計畫編列了相關的預算，大概有5.8億，看起來好像不少，但是對於全國推估24萬棟、總重量52.9萬噸的石綿建築來說，這僅是杯水車薪。風災是特別事件，而且瞬間短期大量的製造出了非立即拆除不可的石綿，短期需要七、八億，請問錢要從哪裡來？"],["彭部長啓明：目前我們正在爭取當中。"],["林委員淑芬：爭取？"],["彭部長啓明：爭取當中，基本上……"],["林委員淑芬：爭取哪裡？現在預算都……"],["彭部長啓明：沒有、沒有、沒有，因為院長有特別交代，請陳金德政委組成一個協調會，因為這是風災的特別專案在處理，我們……"],["林委員淑芬：然後錢要從哪裡來？第二預備金？"],["彭部長啓明：我不知道，因為我們是……"],["林委員淑芬：你不知道？"],["彭部長啓明：我們現在是跟地方合作，因為地方先報給我們一個最大的量，我相信可能實質的量不見得……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在要說，你們自己的委外研究指出，如果沒有這一次風災，照你平常所編列的預算去推估你們的補助對象及分年排出量，以建築物登記時間估算，屋齡達建物耐用年數60年來推估的話，要155年才能全數自然排出，照你們現在這樣的作法要155年，現在你們對石綿的最終處理就是以固化掩埋，未來要導向熱處理為主，這個錢要花很多，你們評估這一次的1.56萬噸……"],["彭部長啓明：1萬5,600噸。"],["林委員淑芬：1.6萬噸左右，全部要採固化處理去掩埋嗎？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：這是目前的處理方法，我們現在也……"],["林委員淑芬：嘉義、臺南、雲林有足夠的固定掩埋裝置容量嗎？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，我們現在是有共同供應契約，分北中南，然後去開共同供應契約……"],["林委員淑芬：北中南？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：有處理場。"],["林委員淑芬：好，沒關係，你們的共同契約裡面有哪幾個掩埋場？不是每一個掩埋場都能掩埋吧？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：是，現在有三家。"],["林委員淑芬：有三個？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：有三家。"],["林委員淑芬：我指的是掩埋場，我不是講處理商啊！三個掩埋場是哪三個？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：三個處理場。"],["林委員淑芬：掩埋場是要掩埋在哪裡？哪三個地方？掩埋容納量可以多少？它是專門for石綿的嗎？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：是最終的掩埋處理設施，石綿是其中一種，現在是有三家，在北中南……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有，我現在問你的是掩埋場的容量還足夠嗎？哪三家你唸給我聽，他們的容納量是多少？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：三家是中台、日友跟可寧衛。"],["林委員淑芬：可寧衛、中台、日友，他們的掩埋場在哪裡？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：日友在彰濱。"],["林委員淑芬：彰濱？彰濱就地掩埋？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：他們會先做固化，然後再來做掩埋。"],["林委員淑芬：好，對於瞬間大量的石綿瓦或石綿廢棄物，這個掩埋的空間調度是不是有評估？平日的處理量能突然增加了這麼多，會不會有捉襟見肘的可能？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：這個部分我們的確是……"],["林委員淑芬：因為是混合埋在一起，聽你這麼說，是混合埋在一起嘛！事業廢棄物混合……"],["賴署長瑩瑩：掩埋場就是會分區，像這個石綿會先固化，會有一個區域去做不同廢棄物的掩埋，這個就是要做最終掩埋。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊，所以是分區啊，所以我才問你石綿的那一區還有多少量？夠嗎？瞬間增加了一、兩萬噸耶！請你提供資料給我們。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：好。"],["林委員淑芬：還有，固化處理、掩埋也不是永久的解決之道，對於石綿掩埋場的人員及處理廢棄物的人員來講，其實石綿廢棄物被封裝後仍然有石綿的特性，固化或封裝不佳或其他原因可能導致石綿逸散，所以這一些工作人員的勞安檢查也很重要喔，他們如果吸入了，他們的暴露風險就很高了。","另外，你們有熱處理的試驗，你們現在希望能用熱處理的管道來處理它，在這種既有的隧道窯、磚窯業協同處理廢石綿瓦的浪板，以磚窯業來說，你們現在的試驗是900度的高溫停留4小時、950度停留時間4小時作為本次試燒的參數，看對石綿纖維破壞性的可行性到底有沒有，但是你們嘗試起來，900度、950度都還是有檢出，在煙道間、周邊的石綿纖維含量都還有被檢出，所以他們認為要梭子窯熱處理的試驗計畫1,000度以上、1個小時才破壞得了石綿纖維的結構，所以你們這個熱處理的實驗和研究應該要加速吧？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：是，我們……"],["林委員淑芬：而且你們推估1.56噸的這個數量會不會短估了？"],["彭部長啓明：這個是目前……"],["林委員淑芬：有沒有可能短估？你們怎麼推估出來的？是用什麼方法推的？"],["彭部長啓明：我們基本上是靠跟地方政府合作，因為其實這個有很大量是畜牧業……"],["林委員淑芬：OK，這是統計的，我想是統計的。"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，他們實際上一個個……但是有一個情況……"],["林委員淑芬：對啦，就是我剛剛看區公所講的，如果是請業者處理的，就不用拍照，公所不受理，你要我們幫你最終處理、拿去固化掩埋的，就來跟我們公所登記，所以你的1.56萬噸是由公所報上來或是業者來呈報的嘛！但是我現在要告訴你喔，在鄉下地區，很多人根本不知道這個有危害，也不知道這個的風險，他拆下來後就隨便亂丟在那邊，這種就會短估了，你的估值是可能短少的。"],["彭部長啓明：對，報告委員，因為我是上禮拜三估出來的，當時臺南或嘉義有些路是不通的，所以基本上他們估出的這個數字……"],["林委員淑芬：還會更多喔！量是更多喔！"],["彭部長啓明：有可能。"],["林委員淑芬：但我現在要講的是，公所現在叫人家隨便裝袋後先放在自家，這個東西不行喔！"],["彭部長啓明：委員，這個我們來解決，我們會……"],["林委員淑芬：這個東西不行喔！"],["彭部長啓明：我知道、我知道，這個我們會來處理。"],["林委員淑芬：還有喔，處理業者是一回事，搬運的過程，公所的清潔隊隊員……"],["彭部長啓明：也是一樣。"],["林委員淑芬：叫人家放在家裡、放在住家旁邊，家裡的大人、小孩都在那裡出入，這要怎麼辦？我的意思是說，其實你們要做的事情還很多，你們應該要主動且更積極的去做事、去宣導、去教人家，這個事情茲事體大啊！"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["林委員淑芬：比討論太陽能板的危害還更直接，這是直接暴露就直接有害了！"],["彭部長啓明：對，謝謝委員，這個我們會遵照處理。"],["林委員淑芬：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝林委員，謝謝部長。","部長，我請教一下，你說二十幾萬棟，一棟如果10噸不就兩百多萬噸？"],["彭部長啓明：不會啦，五十幾萬噸，二十幾萬棟、五十幾萬噸。"],["林委員淑芬：一戶大概有兩噸、三噸啦。"],["彭部長啓明：對啦。"],["主席：這樣也要好幾百億耶！"],["彭部長啓明：如果全部清掉要兩百多億，所以只能逐年來編這個預算啦。"],["主席：嚇死人啦！"],["林委員淑芬：蓋房頂的部分不知道用了多少重量，以前啦……"],["彭部長啓明：就是壞掉的、破碎的要先處理。"],["主席：如果靜靜的躺在那邊是沒事？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有事，對。"],["林委員淑芬：破掉的時候就……"],["主席：謝謝部長。","請王正旭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":238,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-20","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","涂權吉","陳菁徽","黃秀芳","林淑芬","王正旭","黃國昌","楊曜","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳冠廷","陳瑩","盧縣一","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2025-07-16"],"gazette_id":"1146701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部部長、海洋委員會、農業部、內政部、國防部、金融監督管理委員會針\n對「光電設施對環境影響情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146701_00003"}}}