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{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 59.422, \"end\": 59.842, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"張\"}, {\"word\": \"紙\", \"start\": 59.842, \"end\": 59.942, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 59.942, \"end\": 60.022, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 60.022, \"end\": 60.062, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 60.062, \"end\": 60.122, \"score\": 0.769}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 60.122, \"end\": 60.203, \"score\": 0.734}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 60.203, \"end\": 60.263, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 60.263, \"end\": 60.803, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 60.803, \"end\": 61.003, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 61.003, \"end\": 61.383, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 61.383, \"end\": 61.483, \"score\": 0.515}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 61.483, \"end\": 61.583, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 61.583, \"end\": 61.983, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"守\", \"start\": 61.983, \"end\": 62.243, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 62.243, \"end\": 62.463, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 62.463, \"end\": 62.483, \"score\": 0.621}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 62.483, \"end\": 63.063, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 63.063, \"end\": 63.304, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 63.304, \"end\": 63.424, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 63.424, \"end\": 63.444, \"score\": 0.999}]}, {\"start\": 64.924, \"end\": 92.066, \"text\": \"那法律上有 可是實際上有沒有實質花費保護的效力在根本就是形式上存在 實質上我認為是有點失敗的為什麼這樣提 像這次的案子裡面我們就來討論三個問題首先第一個問題就是這起案件也顯示我們的檢警在風險判斷上事實上是有明顯的失誤還有我們資訊的斷裂的問題因為導致我們的刑事程序\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 64.924, \"end\": 65.565, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 65.565, \"end\": 65.685, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"律\", \"start\": 65.685, \"end\": 65.765, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"上\", 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84.7, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 84.7, \"end\": 84.9, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 84.9, \"end\": 85.581, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"顯\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 85.581, \"end\": 85.921, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"失\", \"start\": 85.921, \"end\": 87.122, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"誤\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 87.122, \"end\": 87.262, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 87.262, \"end\": 88.403, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"訊\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 88.403, \"end\": 88.823, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"斷\"}, {\"word\": \"裂\", \"start\": 88.823, \"end\": 89.023, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 89.023, \"end\": 90.404, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 90.404, \"end\": 90.725, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"導\"}, {\"word\": \"致\", \"start\": 90.725, \"end\": 90.925, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 90.925, \"end\": 91.065, \"score\": 0.72}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 91.065, \"end\": 91.205, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"刑\", \"start\": 91.205, \"end\": 91.445, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 91.445, \"end\": 91.765, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 91.765, \"end\": 92.046, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"序\", \"start\": 92.046, \"end\": 92.066, \"score\": 0.921}]}, {\"start\": 92.566, \"end\": 106.782, \"text\": \"當然沒有辦法及時介入 加案早就已經多次違反保護令也有明確的威脅記錄 可是當天呢法院開完庭之後沒有拘提 沒有電子 交流等控制所以就等於事實上是無保請回\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 92.566, \"end\": 92.987, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 92.987, \"end\": 93.087, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 93.087, \"end\": 93.347, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 93.347, \"end\": 93.507, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 93.507, \"end\": 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\"start\": 104.059, \"end\": 104.42, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 104.42, \"end\": 104.76, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 104.76, \"end\": 104.9, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 104.9, \"end\": 104.96, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 104.96, \"end\": 105.1, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 105.1, \"end\": 105.22, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 105.22, \"end\": 105.341, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 105.341, \"end\": 105.481, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 105.481, \"end\": 105.661, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 105.661, \"end\": 105.781, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"無\", \"start\": 105.781, \"end\": 105.921, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 105.921, \"end\": 106.762, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 106.762, \"end\": 106.782, \"score\": 0.947}]}, {\"start\": 107.603, \"end\": 126.232, \"text\": \"那這是一個很大的問題 就是土城分局資料提供的非常的少通報內容也過於簡略 風險就被低估了讓值班的檢察官在做判斷的時候根本就沒有辦法掌握到被害人真正面臨的危險程度所以沒有馬上去啟動說家庭暴力防治法第三章所有的 我今天這邊列的29條到38條這邊\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 107.603, \"end\": 107.703, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 107.703, \"end\": 107.823, \"score\": 0.635}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 107.823, \"end\": 108.023, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 108.023, \"end\": 108.163, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 108.163, \"end\": 108.323, \"score\": 0.763}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 108.323, \"end\": 108.684, \"score\": 0.7}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 108.684, \"end\": 108.784, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 108.784, \"end\": 108.964, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"土\", \"start\": 108.964, \"end\": 109.184, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"城\", \"start\": 109.184, \"end\": 109.724, \"score\": 0.956}, 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\"所以如果你這邊講的話那就是警政單位當初是他們分出來的東西不夠嗎這個大家的事絕對不是推給誰的事因為這就是我們希望可是只要有一個漏掉之後今天兩條人命耶是這個有時候這種非理性的話那一發生有時候我們前面的努力真的就會被檢討其實那種非理性的反應我們辦案子辦那麼多突然就發生我們預想不到的事情這個很遺憾可是我還是建議你們\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 395.029, \"end\": 395.389, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 395.389, \"end\": 395.489, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 395.489, \"end\": 395.589, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 395.589, \"end\": 395.749, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 395.749, \"end\": 395.889, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 395.889, \"end\": 396.149, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 396.149, \"end\": 396.289, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 396.289, \"end\": 396.409, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 396.409, \"end\": 396.529, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"警\", \"start\": 396.529, \"end\": 396.689, \"score\": 0.876}, 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{\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 406.152, \"end\": 406.412, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 406.412, \"end\": 406.652, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"命\", \"start\": 406.652, \"end\": 406.852, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"耶\", \"start\": 406.852, \"end\": 407.192, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 407.192, \"end\": 408.692, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 408.692, \"end\": 408.832, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 408.832, \"end\": 409.412, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 409.412, \"end\": 409.553, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 409.553, \"end\": 409.733, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 409.733, \"end\": 409.913, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 409.913, \"end\": 410.173, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", 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\"父女跟他們還有孩子都是弱勢他們是需要我們國家來給保護的所以一樣的再來問衛福部的次長既然剛剛提到說那要將受害人先保護起來就需要衛福部來做配合沒錯因為我們剛剛前面這兩塊的專業你們有沒有提供相關的專業人員來讓他們\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"父\", \"start\": 436.471, \"end\": 436.671, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"女\", \"start\": 436.671, \"end\": 436.891, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 436.891, \"end\": 437.912, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 437.912, \"end\": 438.432, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 438.432, \"end\": 438.712, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"孩\", \"start\": 438.712, \"end\": 438.932, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 438.932, \"end\": 439.052, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 439.052, \"end\": 439.153, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 439.153, \"end\": 439.273, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"弱\", \"start\": 439.273, \"end\": 439.813, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"勢\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 439.813, \"end\": 440.073, \"score\": 0.81}, 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00:01:03,444\n把人家全家娘家人全家殺了所以保護令明明就已經合法了卻如果沒有搭配人身安全的一個計畫的話也沒有及時監控我們加害人的行蹤的話實際上這就是一張紙那這張紙到底有沒有什麼用意只有對於守法的人才會有用\n\n4\n00:01:04,924 --> 00:01:32,066\n那法律上有可是實際上有沒有實質花費保護的效力在根本就是形式上存在實質上我認為是有點失敗的為什麼這樣提像這次的案子裡面我們就來討論三個問題首先第一個問題就是這起案件也顯示我們的檢警在風險判斷上事實上是有明顯的失誤還有我們資訊的斷裂的問題因為導致我們的刑事程序\n\n5\n00:01:32,566 --> 00:01:46,782\n當然沒有辦法及時介入加案早就已經多次違反保護令也有明確的威脅記錄可是當天呢法院開完庭之後沒有拘提沒有電子交流等控制所以就等於事實上是無保請回\n\n6\n00:01:47,603 --> 00:02:06,232\n那這是一個很大的問題就是土城分局資料提供的非常的少通報內容也過於簡略風險就被低估了讓值班的檢察官在做判斷的時候根本就沒有辦法掌握到被害人真正面臨的危險程度所以沒有馬上去啟動說家庭暴力防治法第三章所有的我今天這邊列的29條到38條這邊\n\n7\n00:02:11,019 --> 00:02:20,123\n這就這些實際上如果沒有看到這些機制被落實的話那今天這個案子如果講保護令的話根本就是一個空殼所以想問我們的\n\n8\n00:02:24,573 --> 00:02:47,188\n廖副署長這邊想問就是說為什麼土城分局到底事實上是警員的訓練不夠呢還是怎麼樣怎麼會既然他已經多次有威脅又有一些前面的一些狀況那為什麼會資料提供的這麼的少通報內容又很簡略當時這個保護令合法在執行的時候確實他這個\n\n9\n00:02:49,946 --> 00:03:08,938\n我們分局發現他有違反保護令狀的這個狀況那但是他們在執行的時候是因為雙方沒有碰面就是他雙方是做隔離然後而且被害人他們雙方都沒有接觸到被害人也跟你們陳述他碰到一些狀況為什麼資料提供的會是這麼簡略\n\n10\n00:03:10,699 --> 00:03:37,939\n在當時維環保齡罪逮捕的時候被害人對這方面的陳述還沒有很完整所以我們在歷次的施暴紀錄的部分我們以後會再加強訓練遠景這方面的敏感度因為你這邊前面不夠多就引發了後端所以要問徐倉這邊今天同樣的值班的檢察官\n\n11\n00:03:38,956 --> 00:03:44,201\n他也算是我們覺得某種程度上事實上是漏接所以想問一下市長這邊說你針對這一塊怎麼去做檢討\n\n12\n00:03:49,574 --> 00:04:10,140\n我想我們已經開過這個協調會議那我們就希望說高風險的評估報告一定要隨著券進來甚至於有其他的一些市政也要跟著進來要增加一些素材讓檢察官在判斷是不是申請羈押的時候有所評據那也可以來說服法官來裁定羈押那這是一部分就是說\n\n13\n00:04:10,860 --> 00:04:21,690\n把當時的加害人想要限制他的行動自由那這個是有效的可以防止因為你的資訊不夠當然就是判斷就會失準所以現在問題是出在那裡我們內省檢察官手上沒有這些資料\n\n14\n00:04:26,246 --> 00:04:34,015\n所以為什麼會特別提出這樣子因為我們自己在看到我之前看你們的報告說有訓練像是員警有訓練的話或者是在講說檢察官有訓練那我們就想問說\n\n15\n00:04:43,505 --> 00:04:58,465\n負責的檢查值班的他不是負有保護的專責人員那他到底受過什麼訓練像你們提的這些訓練裡面110年的確有邀請說什麼性侵者跟家暴者的心理風險評估跟動態因素的管理這110年\n\n16\n00:05:00,908 --> 00:05:16,987\n辦的訓練我知道如果這很重要112年有沒有辦112年有沒有辦就你112年又是換另外一個是重大兒女的經驗分享偵辦經驗分享112年變成是人口販運的防治法就想問說所有的這些檢察官都有受過\n\n17\n00:05:18,008 --> 00:05:39,144\n這樣的特別訓練如果不行的話照理來講應該有專責人員來做處理嘛所以我想問說當天值班的警察官他也不是婦幼的專責人員的話對於家暴的動態跟殺人預兆的敏感度明顯不足所以才會資料不齊全然後呢又缺乏一個專業的視角所以一直錯失了這樣子一個可以挽回的結果\n\n18\n00:05:39,966 --> 00:05:57,854\n報告委員我們不斷地會對檢察官做專業上面的訓練那委員你剛才提到一個問題就是內情因為我們的婦幼值班是有專族來值班那個婦幼案件那大部分都是性侵害案件不列同案那我們有特別的一個專責\n\n19\n00:05:59,215 --> 00:06:14,992\n可是這些人力不可能就是變成內勤因為內勤的話等於是每天都要有包括過年都要有人值班那有時候他因為維護保護令送進來的時候是內勤承接不是附幼的專屬承接所以會變成每個人\n\n20\n00:06:16,653 --> 00:06:34,709\n對如果每個人都要的話那你應不應該要去加強每一個人基礎性專業我想我們檢察官基本上都有這種敏感度我們現在重點是在於我沒有東西判斷不是在於說檢察官到底他有沒有這一個敏感度而是我手上就是沒有資料這樣子的話檢察官誰來都一樣副業主來也是一樣\n\n21\n00:06:35,029 --> 00:07:02,936\n所以如果你這邊講的話那就是警政單位當初是他們分出來的東西不夠嗎這個大家的事絕對不是推給誰的事因為這就是我們希望可是只要有一個漏掉之後今天兩條人命耶是這個有時候這種非理性的話那一發生有時候我們前面的努力真的就會被檢討其實那種非理性的反應我們辦案子辦那麼多突然就發生我們預想不到的事情這個很遺憾可是我還是建議你們\n\n22\n00:07:03,996 --> 00:07:15,621\n我覺得工作人員的訓練真的要強化如果看你們這樣子的一個脈絡我會認為有些人也沒有辦法去接受比較完整的畢竟婦幼\n\n23\n00:07:16,471 --> 00:07:39,324\n父女跟他們還有孩子都是弱勢他們是需要我們國家來給保護的所以一樣的再來問衛福部的次長既然剛剛提到說那要將受害人先保護起來就需要衛福部來做配合沒錯因為我們剛剛前面這兩塊的專業你們有沒有提供相關的專業人員來讓他們\n\n24\n00:07:41,866 --> 00:07:52,822\n應該講當講師因為你可能換是主管機關你會是最了解這一方面的有曾經有提供嗎另外一個是我對受害人的保護的這個你的策略會是什麼\n\n25\n00:07:54,153 --> 00:08:15,681\n跟委員報告其實我們都有一些相關的整個教育訓練跟宣導也有跟我們的司法院還有跟法務部這邊共同合作另外一個就是說其實我們在整個重大家暴的案件我們有一個整個處理機制就是重大的會議我們在上面會對像我們\n\n26\n00:08:17,662 --> 00:08:45,833\n前天就是針對這個土城案子我們來來做相關的一個教育的一個了解那另外一個部分是剛剛委員剛剛有特別關心的就是對於整個加害人還有這一個還有這一個受害者他們的整個相關的處遇計畫那這邊我們我承認就是這裡面整個一些未來我們的整個對於社工同仁這邊的一些相關的整個這一個\n\n27\n00:08:46,854 --> 00:08:54,073\n對因為受害者還是實際上是你們的職責所在是是是沒錯我們這邊的一個整個教育訓練我們應該也要來再進一步再來深化強化\n\n28\n00:08:55,222 --> 00:09:22,049\n所以就來問市長這邊問題三就是角色很模糊又沒有制度又沒有指引都很難去做為什麼加害人一度事實上是反控自己是被害人的是沒錯那導致系統面臨如果互為相對人或互為被害人的情境的話就會缺乏統一評估工具跟釐清機制沒有辦法分辨到底誰才是主動的施暴者所以針對這樣狀況一個想問市長說\n\n29\n00:09:24,870 --> 00:09:37,339\n今天一個家庭裡邊疑似加害者及被害者兩邊互控的時候常常社工你要他顧哪一邊啊兩邊的都顧的話那叫社工是扮演一個調解的角色嗎怎麼做得來\n\n30\n00:09:39,908 --> 00:10:02,371\n進行法律規定並沒有說誰才能夠這個申請這個通報所以目前的互為通報的確是一個變成常態但是我們也知道應該看到回到那個案件的本質家庭暴力特別是親密關係暴力的本質是什麼那將來我們在指引上面會很清楚的讓第一線社工人員知道\n\n31\n00:10:02,811 --> 00:10:24,994\n那接下來到底這種案件要誰為主誰為輔到底資源要怎麼樣配置我想這個部分已經在我們的工作計畫裡頭可能要快因為食物界也跟我反映說沒有這個指引的話有時候他們事實上是蠻難處理的那就要問市長什麼時候因為今天這個不是我剛剛講過不是第一期那互為這種\n\n32\n00:10:26,448 --> 00:10:49,145\n告對方的應該也蠻多的那我不知道你們指引什麼時候要出來我們的數據是有掌握但是至於那個指引的內容就給我們一些時間那一些時間是多久時間可以三個月嗎好那再麻煩三個月內把這個指引弄出來所以也麻煩我們的警政跟檢查法院的這個資訊平台的一個互通在\n\n33\n00:10:50,006 --> 00:11:04,199\n這些的歷史性的資料應該是要完整的而不是兼塗成分局送的比較少資料的時候使得我們的值班檢察官又漏接那護衛相對人的話麻煩這個評估工具在三個月內\n\n34\n00:11:04,819 --> 00:11:24,475\n那我認為今天整個刑事程序應該主動介入重大家暴案件因為這件看起來他已經多次就已經有在反映這件事情要明確的去訂定這些相關的案件的所以請我們的法務部可能針對我們的值班的檢察官還有我們的警政單位應該要加強你們的專業訓練以上謝謝好謝謝林委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11877\t18025\t主席麻煩有請我們的法務部徐次長跟內政部廖副署長還有衛福部的呂次長\n26624\t46358\t委員好三位午安我相信今天司法法制委員會不會排這個主題因為我們7月7號發生了這樣的一個重大事件那這不是第一起啦過去實際上拿到保護令到底有對於受害人到底有沒有實質意義過去也曾經跑到人家家裡\n46838\t63444\t把人家全家 娘家人全家殺了所以保護令明明就已經合法了卻如果沒有搭配人身安全的一個計畫的話也沒有及時監控我們加害人的行蹤的話實際上這就是一張紙那這張紙到底有沒有什麼用意只有對於守法的人才會有用\n64924\t92066\t那法律上有 可是實際上有沒有實質花費保護的效力在根本就是形式上存在 實質上我認為是有點失敗的為什麼這樣提 像這次的案子裡面我們就來討論三個問題首先第一個問題就是這起案件也顯示我們的檢警在風險判斷上事實上是有明顯的失誤還有我們資訊的斷裂的問題因為導致我們的刑事程序\n92566\t106782\t當然沒有辦法及時介入 加案早就已經多次違反保護令也有明確的威脅記錄 可是當天呢法院開完庭之後沒有拘提 沒有電子 交流等控制所以就等於事實上是無保請回\n107603\t126232\t那這是一個很大的問題 就是土城分局資料提供的非常的少通報內容也過於簡略 風險就被低估了讓值班的檢察官在做判斷的時候根本就沒有辦法掌握到被害人真正面臨的危險程度所以沒有馬上去啟動說家庭暴力防治法第三章所有的 我今天這邊列的29條到38條這邊\n131019\t140123\t這就這些實際上如果沒有看到這些機制被落實的話那今天這個案子如果講保護令的話根本就是一個空殼所以想問我們的\n144573\t167188\t廖副署長這邊想問就是說為什麼土城分局到底事實上是警員的訓練不夠呢還是怎麼樣怎麼會既然他已經多次有威脅又有一些前面的一些狀況那為什麼會資料提供的這麼的少通報內容又很簡略當時這個保護令合法在執行的時候確實他這個\n169946\t188938\t我們分局發現他有違反保護令狀的這個狀況那但是他們在執行的時候是因為雙方沒有碰面就是他雙方是做隔離然後而且被害人他們雙方都沒有接觸到被害人也跟你們陳述他碰到一些狀況為什麼資料提供的會是這麼簡略\n190699\t217939\t在當時維環保齡罪逮捕的時候被害人對這方面的陳述還沒有很完整所以我們在歷次的施暴紀錄的部分我們以後會再加強訓練 遠景這方面的敏感度因為你這邊前面不夠多就引發了後端所以要問徐倉這邊今天同樣的值班的檢察官\n218956\t224201\t他也算是我們覺得某種程度上事實上是漏接所以想問一下市長這邊說你針對這一塊怎麼去做檢討\n229574\t250140\t我想我們已經開過這個協調會議那我們就希望說高風險的評估報告一定要隨著券進來甚至於有其他的一些市政也要跟著進來要增加一些素材讓檢察官在判斷是不是申請羈押的時候有所評據那也可以來說服法官來裁定羈押那這是一部分就是說\n250860\t261690\t把當時的加害人 想要限制他的行動自由那這個是有效的可以防止因為你的資訊不夠 當然就是判斷就會失準所以現在問題是出在那裡我們內省檢察官手上沒有這些資料\n266246\t274015\t所以為什麼會特別提出這樣子因為我們自己在看到我之前看你們的報告說有訓練 像是員警有訓練的話或者是在講說檢察官有訓練那我們就想問說\n283505\t298465\t負責的檢查值班的他不是負有保護的專責人員那他到底受過什麼訓練像你們提的這些訓練裡面110年的確有邀請說什麼性侵者跟家暴者的心理風險評估跟動態因素的管理這110年\n300908\t316987\t辦的訓練我知道如果這很重要112年有沒有辦112年有沒有辦就你112年又是換另外一個是重大兒女的經驗分享偵辦經驗分享112年變成是人口販運的防治法就想問說所有的這些檢察官都有受過\n318008\t339144\t這樣的特別訓練如果不行的話照理來講應該有專責人員來做處理嘛所以我想問說當天值班的警察官他也不是婦幼的專責人員的話對於家暴的動態跟殺人預兆的敏感度明顯不足所以才會資料不齊全然後呢又缺乏一個專業的視角所以一直錯失了這樣子一個可以挽回的結果\n339966\t357854\t報告委員我們不斷地會對檢察官做專業上面的訓練那委員你剛才提到一個問題就是內情因為我們的婦幼值班是有專族來值班那個婦幼案件那大部分都是性侵害案件不列同案那我們有特別的一個專責\n359215\t374992\t可是這些人力不可能就是變成內勤因為內勤的話等於是每天都要有包括過年都要有人值班那有時候他因為維護保護令送進來的時候是內勤承接不是附幼的專屬承接所以會變成每個人\n376653\t394709\t對 如果每個人都要的話那你應不應該要去加強每一個人基礎性專業我想我們檢察官基本上都有這種敏感度我們現在重點是在於我沒有東西判斷不是在於說檢察官到底他有沒有這一個敏感度而是我手上就是沒有資料這樣子的話檢察官誰來都一樣副業主來也是一樣\n395029\t422936\t所以如果你這邊講的話那就是警政單位當初是他們分出來的東西不夠嗎這個大家的事絕對不是推給誰的事因為這就是我們希望可是只要有一個漏掉之後今天兩條人命耶是這個有時候這種非理性的話那一發生有時候我們前面的努力真的就會被檢討其實那種非理性的反應我們辦案子辦那麼多突然就發生我們預想不到的事情這個很遺憾可是我還是建議你們\n423996\t435621\t我覺得工作人員的訓練真的要強化如果看你們這樣子的一個脈絡我會認為有些人也沒有辦法去接受比較完整的畢竟婦幼\n436471\t459324\t父女跟他們還有孩子都是弱勢他們是需要我們國家來給保護的所以一樣的再來問衛福部的次長既然剛剛提到說那要將受害人先保護起來就需要衛福部來做配合沒錯因為我們剛剛前面這兩塊的專業你們有沒有提供相關的專業人員來讓他們\n461866\t472822\t應該講當講師因為你可能換是主管機關你會是最了解這一方面的有曾經有提供嗎另外一個是我對受害人的保護的這個你的策略會是什麼\n474153\t495681\t跟委員報告 其實我們都有一些相關的整個教育訓練跟宣導也有跟我們的司法院還有跟法務部這邊共同合作另外一個就是說其實我們在整個重大家暴的案件我們有一個整個處理機制就是重大的會議我們在上面會對像我們\n497662\t525833\t前天就是針對這個土城案子我們來來做相關的一個教育的一個了解那另外一個部分是剛剛委員剛剛有特別關心的就是對於整個加害人還有這一個還有這一個受害者他們的整個相關的處遇計畫那這邊我們我承認就是這裡面整個一些未來我們的整個對於社工同仁這邊的一些相關的整個這一個\n526854\t534073\t對 因為受害者還是實際上是你們的職責所在是是是 沒錯我們這邊的一個整個教育訓練我們應該也要來再進一步再來深化強化\n535222\t562049\t所以就來問市長這邊問題三就是角色很模糊又沒有制度又沒有指引都很難去做為什麼加害人一度事實上是反控自己是被害人的是沒錯那導致系統面臨如果互為相對人或互為被害人的情境的話就會缺乏統一評估工具跟釐清機制沒有辦法分辨到底誰才是主動的施暴者所以針對這樣狀況一個想問市長說\n564870\t577339\t今天一個家庭裡邊疑似加害者及被害者兩邊互控的時候常常社工你要他顧哪一邊啊兩邊的都顧的話那叫社工是扮演一個調解的角色嗎怎麼做得來\n579908\t602371\t進行法律規定並沒有說誰才能夠這個申請這個通報所以目前的互為通報的確是一個變成常態但是我們也知道應該看到回到那個案件的本質家庭暴力特別是親密關係暴力的本質是什麼那將來我們在指引上面會很清楚的讓第一線社工人員知道\n602811\t624994\t那接下來到底這種案件要誰為主誰為輔到底資源要怎麼樣配置我想這個部分已經在我們的工作計畫裡頭可能要快因為食物界也跟我反映說沒有這個指引的話有時候他們事實上是蠻難處理的那就要問市長什麼時候因為今天這個不是我剛剛講過不是第一期那互為這種\n626448\t649145\t告對方的應該也蠻多的那我不知道你們指引什麼時候要出來我們的數據是有掌握但是至於那個指引的內容就給我們一些時間那一些時間是多久時間可以三個月嗎好那再麻煩三個月內把這個指引弄出來所以也麻煩我們的警政跟檢查法院的這個資訊平台的一個互通在\n650006\t664199\t這些的歷史性的資料應該是要完整的而不是兼塗成分局送的比較少資料的時候使得我們的值班檢察官又漏接那護衛相對人的話麻煩這個評估工具在三個月內\n664819\t684475\t那我認為今天整個刑事程序應該主動介入重大家暴案件因為這件看起來他已經多次就已經有在反映這件事情要明確的去訂定這些相關的案件的所以請我們的法務部可能針對我們的值班的檢察官還有我們的警政單位應該要加強你們的專業訓練以上 謝謝好 謝謝林委員\n","txt":"主席麻煩有請我們的法務部徐次長跟內政部廖副署長還有衛福部的呂次長\n委員好三位午安我相信今天司法法制委員會不會排這個主題因為我們7月7號發生了這樣的一個重大事件那這不是第一起啦過去實際上拿到保護令到底有對於受害人到底有沒有實質意義過去也曾經跑到人家家裡\n把人家全家 娘家人全家殺了所以保護令明明就已經合法了卻如果沒有搭配人身安全的一個計畫的話也沒有及時監控我們加害人的行蹤的話實際上這就是一張紙那這張紙到底有沒有什麼用意只有對於守法的人才會有用\n那法律上有 可是實際上有沒有實質花費保護的效力在根本就是形式上存在 實質上我認為是有點失敗的為什麼這樣提 像這次的案子裡面我們就來討論三個問題首先第一個問題就是這起案件也顯示我們的檢警在風險判斷上事實上是有明顯的失誤還有我們資訊的斷裂的問題因為導致我們的刑事程序\n當然沒有辦法及時介入 加案早就已經多次違反保護令也有明確的威脅記錄 可是當天呢法院開完庭之後沒有拘提 沒有電子 交流等控制所以就等於事實上是無保請回\n那這是一個很大的問題 就是土城分局資料提供的非常的少通報內容也過於簡略 風險就被低估了讓值班的檢察官在做判斷的時候根本就沒有辦法掌握到被害人真正面臨的危險程度所以沒有馬上去啟動說家庭暴力防治法第三章所有的 我今天這邊列的29條到38條這邊\n這就這些實際上如果沒有看到這些機制被落實的話那今天這個案子如果講保護令的話根本就是一個空殼所以想問我們的\n廖副署長這邊想問就是說為什麼土城分局到底事實上是警員的訓練不夠呢還是怎麼樣怎麼會既然他已經多次有威脅又有一些前面的一些狀況那為什麼會資料提供的這麼的少通報內容又很簡略當時這個保護令合法在執行的時候確實他這個\n我們分局發現他有違反保護令狀的這個狀況那但是他們在執行的時候是因為雙方沒有碰面就是他雙方是做隔離然後而且被害人他們雙方都沒有接觸到被害人也跟你們陳述他碰到一些狀況為什麼資料提供的會是這麼簡略\n在當時維環保齡罪逮捕的時候被害人對這方面的陳述還沒有很完整所以我們在歷次的施暴紀錄的部分我們以後會再加強訓練 遠景這方面的敏感度因為你這邊前面不夠多就引發了後端所以要問徐倉這邊今天同樣的值班的檢察官\n他也算是我們覺得某種程度上事實上是漏接所以想問一下市長這邊說你針對這一塊怎麼去做檢討\n我想我們已經開過這個協調會議那我們就希望說高風險的評估報告一定要隨著券進來甚至於有其他的一些市政也要跟著進來要增加一些素材讓檢察官在判斷是不是申請羈押的時候有所評據那也可以來說服法官來裁定羈押那這是一部分就是說\n把當時的加害人 想要限制他的行動自由那這個是有效的可以防止因為你的資訊不夠 當然就是判斷就會失準所以現在問題是出在那裡我們內省檢察官手上沒有這些資料\n所以為什麼會特別提出這樣子因為我們自己在看到我之前看你們的報告說有訓練 像是員警有訓練的話或者是在講說檢察官有訓練那我們就想問說\n負責的檢查值班的他不是負有保護的專責人員那他到底受過什麼訓練像你們提的這些訓練裡面110年的確有邀請說什麼性侵者跟家暴者的心理風險評估跟動態因素的管理這110年\n辦的訓練我知道如果這很重要112年有沒有辦112年有沒有辦就你112年又是換另外一個是重大兒女的經驗分享偵辦經驗分享112年變成是人口販運的防治法就想問說所有的這些檢察官都有受過\n這樣的特別訓練如果不行的話照理來講應該有專責人員來做處理嘛所以我想問說當天值班的警察官他也不是婦幼的專責人員的話對於家暴的動態跟殺人預兆的敏感度明顯不足所以才會資料不齊全然後呢又缺乏一個專業的視角所以一直錯失了這樣子一個可以挽回的結果\n報告委員我們不斷地會對檢察官做專業上面的訓練那委員你剛才提到一個問題就是內情因為我們的婦幼值班是有專族來值班那個婦幼案件那大部分都是性侵害案件不列同案那我們有特別的一個專責\n可是這些人力不可能就是變成內勤因為內勤的話等於是每天都要有包括過年都要有人值班那有時候他因為維護保護令送進來的時候是內勤承接不是附幼的專屬承接所以會變成每個人\n對 如果每個人都要的話那你應不應該要去加強每一個人基礎性專業我想我們檢察官基本上都有這種敏感度我們現在重點是在於我沒有東西判斷不是在於說檢察官到底他有沒有這一個敏感度而是我手上就是沒有資料這樣子的話檢察官誰來都一樣副業主來也是一樣\n所以如果你這邊講的話那就是警政單位當初是他們分出來的東西不夠嗎這個大家的事絕對不是推給誰的事因為這就是我們希望可是只要有一個漏掉之後今天兩條人命耶是這個有時候這種非理性的話那一發生有時候我們前面的努力真的就會被檢討其實那種非理性的反應我們辦案子辦那麼多突然就發生我們預想不到的事情這個很遺憾可是我還是建議你們\n我覺得工作人員的訓練真的要強化如果看你們這樣子的一個脈絡我會認為有些人也沒有辦法去接受比較完整的畢竟婦幼\n父女跟他們還有孩子都是弱勢他們是需要我們國家來給保護的所以一樣的再來問衛福部的次長既然剛剛提到說那要將受害人先保護起來就需要衛福部來做配合沒錯因為我們剛剛前面這兩塊的專業你們有沒有提供相關的專業人員來讓他們\n應該講當講師因為你可能換是主管機關你會是最了解這一方面的有曾經有提供嗎另外一個是我對受害人的保護的這個你的策略會是什麼\n跟委員報告 其實我們都有一些相關的整個教育訓練跟宣導也有跟我們的司法院還有跟法務部這邊共同合作另外一個就是說其實我們在整個重大家暴的案件我們有一個整個處理機制就是重大的會議我們在上面會對像我們\n前天就是針對這個土城案子我們來來做相關的一個教育的一個了解那另外一個部分是剛剛委員剛剛有特別關心的就是對於整個加害人還有這一個還有這一個受害者他們的整個相關的處遇計畫那這邊我們我承認就是這裡面整個一些未來我們的整個對於社工同仁這邊的一些相關的整個這一個\n對 因為受害者還是實際上是你們的職責所在是是是 沒錯我們這邊的一個整個教育訓練我們應該也要來再進一步再來深化強化\n所以就來問市長這邊問題三就是角色很模糊又沒有制度又沒有指引都很難去做為什麼加害人一度事實上是反控自己是被害人的是沒錯那導致系統面臨如果互為相對人或互為被害人的情境的話就會缺乏統一評估工具跟釐清機制沒有辦法分辨到底誰才是主動的施暴者所以針對這樣狀況一個想問市長說\n今天一個家庭裡邊疑似加害者及被害者兩邊互控的時候常常社工你要他顧哪一邊啊兩邊的都顧的話那叫社工是扮演一個調解的角色嗎怎麼做得來\n進行法律規定並沒有說誰才能夠這個申請這個通報所以目前的互為通報的確是一個變成常態但是我們也知道應該看到回到那個案件的本質家庭暴力特別是親密關係暴力的本質是什麼那將來我們在指引上面會很清楚的讓第一線社工人員知道\n那接下來到底這種案件要誰為主誰為輔到底資源要怎麼樣配置我想這個部分已經在我們的工作計畫裡頭可能要快因為食物界也跟我反映說沒有這個指引的話有時候他們事實上是蠻難處理的那就要問市長什麼時候因為今天這個不是我剛剛講過不是第一期那互為這種\n告對方的應該也蠻多的那我不知道你們指引什麼時候要出來我們的數據是有掌握但是至於那個指引的內容就給我們一些時間那一些時間是多久時間可以三個月嗎好那再麻煩三個月內把這個指引弄出來所以也麻煩我們的警政跟檢查法院的這個資訊平台的一個互通在\n這些的歷史性的資料應該是要完整的而不是兼塗成分局送的比較少資料的時候使得我們的值班檢察官又漏接那護衛相對人的話麻煩這個評估工具在三個月內\n那我認為今天整個刑事程序應該主動介入重大家暴案件因為這件看起來他已經多次就已經有在反映這件事情要明確的去訂定這些相關的案件的所以請我們的法務部可能針對我們的值班的檢察官還有我們的警政單位應該要加強你們的專業訓練以上 謝謝好 謝謝林委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.877 --> 00:18.025\n主席麻煩有請我們的法務部徐次長跟內政部廖副署長還有衛福部的呂次長\n\n00:26.624 --> 00:46.358\n委員好三位午安我相信今天司法法制委員會不會排這個主題因為我們7月7號發生了這樣的一個重大事件那這不是第一起啦過去實際上拿到保護令到底有對於受害人到底有沒有實質意義過去也曾經跑到人家家裡\n\n00:46.838 --> 01:03.444\n把人家全家娘家人全家殺了所以保護令明明就已經合法了卻如果沒有搭配人身安全的一個計畫的話也沒有及時監控我們加害人的行蹤的話實際上這就是一張紙那這張紙到底有沒有什麼用意只有對於守法的人才會有用\n\n01:04.924 --> 01:32.066\n那法律上有可是實際上有沒有實質花費保護的效力在根本就是形式上存在實質上我認為是有點失敗的為什麼這樣提像這次的案子裡面我們就來討論三個問題首先第一個問題就是這起案件也顯示我們的檢警在風險判斷上事實上是有明顯的失誤還有我們資訊的斷裂的問題因為導致我們的刑事程序\n\n01:32.566 --> 01:46.782\n當然沒有辦法及時介入加案早就已經多次違反保護令也有明確的威脅記錄可是當天呢法院開完庭之後沒有拘提沒有電子交流等控制所以就等於事實上是無保請回\n\n01:47.603 --> 02:06.232\n那這是一個很大的問題就是土城分局資料提供的非常的少通報內容也過於簡略風險就被低估了讓值班的檢察官在做判斷的時候根本就沒有辦法掌握到被害人真正面臨的危險程度所以沒有馬上去啟動說家庭暴力防治法第三章所有的我今天這邊列的29條到38條這邊\n\n02:11.019 --> 02:20.123\n這就這些實際上如果沒有看到這些機制被落實的話那今天這個案子如果講保護令的話根本就是一個空殼所以想問我們的\n\n02:24.573 --> 02:47.188\n廖副署長這邊想問就是說為什麼土城分局到底事實上是警員的訓練不夠呢還是怎麼樣怎麼會既然他已經多次有威脅又有一些前面的一些狀況那為什麼會資料提供的這麼的少通報內容又很簡略當時這個保護令合法在執行的時候確實他這個\n\n02:49.946 --> 03:08.938\n我們分局發現他有違反保護令狀的這個狀況那但是他們在執行的時候是因為雙方沒有碰面就是他雙方是做隔離然後而且被害人他們雙方都沒有接觸到被害人也跟你們陳述他碰到一些狀況為什麼資料提供的會是這麼簡略\n\n03:10.699 --> 03:37.939\n在當時維環保齡罪逮捕的時候被害人對這方面的陳述還沒有很完整所以我們在歷次的施暴紀錄的部分我們以後會再加強訓練遠景這方面的敏感度因為你這邊前面不夠多就引發了後端所以要問徐倉這邊今天同樣的值班的檢察官\n\n03:38.956 --> 03:44.201\n他也算是我們覺得某種程度上事實上是漏接所以想問一下市長這邊說你針對這一塊怎麼去做檢討\n\n03:49.574 --> 04:10.140\n我想我們已經開過這個協調會議那我們就希望說高風險的評估報告一定要隨著券進來甚至於有其他的一些市政也要跟著進來要增加一些素材讓檢察官在判斷是不是申請羈押的時候有所評據那也可以來說服法官來裁定羈押那這是一部分就是說\n\n04:10.860 --> 04:21.690\n把當時的加害人想要限制他的行動自由那這個是有效的可以防止因為你的資訊不夠當然就是判斷就會失準所以現在問題是出在那裡我們內省檢察官手上沒有這些資料\n\n04:26.246 --> 04:34.015\n所以為什麼會特別提出這樣子因為我們自己在看到我之前看你們的報告說有訓練像是員警有訓練的話或者是在講說檢察官有訓練那我們就想問說\n\n04:43.505 --> 04:58.465\n負責的檢查值班的他不是負有保護的專責人員那他到底受過什麼訓練像你們提的這些訓練裡面110年的確有邀請說什麼性侵者跟家暴者的心理風險評估跟動態因素的管理這110年\n\n05:00.908 --> 05:16.987\n辦的訓練我知道如果這很重要112年有沒有辦112年有沒有辦就你112年又是換另外一個是重大兒女的經驗分享偵辦經驗分享112年變成是人口販運的防治法就想問說所有的這些檢察官都有受過\n\n05:18.008 --> 05:39.144\n這樣的特別訓練如果不行的話照理來講應該有專責人員來做處理嘛所以我想問說當天值班的警察官他也不是婦幼的專責人員的話對於家暴的動態跟殺人預兆的敏感度明顯不足所以才會資料不齊全然後呢又缺乏一個專業的視角所以一直錯失了這樣子一個可以挽回的結果\n\n05:39.966 --> 05:57.854\n報告委員我們不斷地會對檢察官做專業上面的訓練那委員你剛才提到一個問題就是內情因為我們的婦幼值班是有專族來值班那個婦幼案件那大部分都是性侵害案件不列同案那我們有特別的一個專責\n\n05:59.215 --> 06:14.992\n可是這些人力不可能就是變成內勤因為內勤的話等於是每天都要有包括過年都要有人值班那有時候他因為維護保護令送進來的時候是內勤承接不是附幼的專屬承接所以會變成每個人\n\n06:16.653 --> 06:34.709\n對如果每個人都要的話那你應不應該要去加強每一個人基礎性專業我想我們檢察官基本上都有這種敏感度我們現在重點是在於我沒有東西判斷不是在於說檢察官到底他有沒有這一個敏感度而是我手上就是沒有資料這樣子的話檢察官誰來都一樣副業主來也是一樣\n\n06:35.029 --> 07:02.936\n所以如果你這邊講的話那就是警政單位當初是他們分出來的東西不夠嗎這個大家的事絕對不是推給誰的事因為這就是我們希望可是只要有一個漏掉之後今天兩條人命耶是這個有時候這種非理性的話那一發生有時候我們前面的努力真的就會被檢討其實那種非理性的反應我們辦案子辦那麼多突然就發生我們預想不到的事情這個很遺憾可是我還是建議你們\n\n07:03.996 --> 07:15.621\n我覺得工作人員的訓練真的要強化如果看你們這樣子的一個脈絡我會認為有些人也沒有辦法去接受比較完整的畢竟婦幼\n\n07:16.471 --> 07:39.324\n父女跟他們還有孩子都是弱勢他們是需要我們國家來給保護的所以一樣的再來問衛福部的次長既然剛剛提到說那要將受害人先保護起來就需要衛福部來做配合沒錯因為我們剛剛前面這兩塊的專業你們有沒有提供相關的專業人員來讓他們\n\n07:41.866 --> 07:52.822\n應該講當講師因為你可能換是主管機關你會是最了解這一方面的有曾經有提供嗎另外一個是我對受害人的保護的這個你的策略會是什麼\n\n07:54.153 --> 08:15.681\n跟委員報告其實我們都有一些相關的整個教育訓練跟宣導也有跟我們的司法院還有跟法務部這邊共同合作另外一個就是說其實我們在整個重大家暴的案件我們有一個整個處理機制就是重大的會議我們在上面會對像我們\n\n08:17.662 --> 08:45.833\n前天就是針對這個土城案子我們來來做相關的一個教育的一個了解那另外一個部分是剛剛委員剛剛有特別關心的就是對於整個加害人還有這一個還有這一個受害者他們的整個相關的處遇計畫那這邊我們我承認就是這裡面整個一些未來我們的整個對於社工同仁這邊的一些相關的整個這一個\n\n08:46.854 --> 08:54.073\n對因為受害者還是實際上是你們的職責所在是是是沒錯我們這邊的一個整個教育訓練我們應該也要來再進一步再來深化強化\n\n08:55.222 --> 09:22.049\n所以就來問市長這邊問題三就是角色很模糊又沒有制度又沒有指引都很難去做為什麼加害人一度事實上是反控自己是被害人的是沒錯那導致系統面臨如果互為相對人或互為被害人的情境的話就會缺乏統一評估工具跟釐清機制沒有辦法分辨到底誰才是主動的施暴者所以針對這樣狀況一個想問市長說\n\n09:24.870 --> 09:37.339\n今天一個家庭裡邊疑似加害者及被害者兩邊互控的時候常常社工你要他顧哪一邊啊兩邊的都顧的話那叫社工是扮演一個調解的角色嗎怎麼做得來\n\n09:39.908 --> 10:02.371\n進行法律規定並沒有說誰才能夠這個申請這個通報所以目前的互為通報的確是一個變成常態但是我們也知道應該看到回到那個案件的本質家庭暴力特別是親密關係暴力的本質是什麼那將來我們在指引上面會很清楚的讓第一線社工人員知道\n\n10:02.811 --> 10:24.994\n那接下來到底這種案件要誰為主誰為輔到底資源要怎麼樣配置我想這個部分已經在我們的工作計畫裡頭可能要快因為食物界也跟我反映說沒有這個指引的話有時候他們事實上是蠻難處理的那就要問市長什麼時候因為今天這個不是我剛剛講過不是第一期那互為這種\n\n10:26.448 --> 10:49.145\n告對方的應該也蠻多的那我不知道你們指引什麼時候要出來我們的數據是有掌握但是至於那個指引的內容就給我們一些時間那一些時間是多久時間可以三個月嗎好那再麻煩三個月內把這個指引弄出來所以也麻煩我們的警政跟檢查法院的這個資訊平台的一個互通在\n\n10:50.006 --> 11:04.199\n這些的歷史性的資料應該是要完整的而不是兼塗成分局送的比較少資料的時候使得我們的值班檢察官又漏接那護衛相對人的話麻煩這個評估工具在三個月內\n\n11:04.819 --> 11:24.475\n那我認為今天整個刑事程序應該主動介入重大家暴案件因為這件看起來他已經多次就已經有在反映這件事情要明確的去訂定這些相關的案件的所以請我們的法務部可能針對我們的值班的檢察官還有我們的警政單位應該要加強你們的專業訓練以上謝謝好謝謝林委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.877,"end":18.025,"text":"主席麻煩有請我們的法務部徐次長跟內政部廖副署長還有衛福部的呂次長"},{"start":26.624,"end":46.358,"text":"委員好三位午安我相信今天司法法制委員會不會排這個主題因為我們7月7號發生了這樣的一個重大事件那這不是第一起啦過去實際上拿到保護令到底有對於受害人到底有沒有實質意義過去也曾經跑到人家家裡"},{"start":46.838,"end":63.444,"text":"把人家全家 娘家人全家殺了所以保護令明明就已經合法了卻如果沒有搭配人身安全的一個計畫的話也沒有及時監控我們加害人的行蹤的話實際上這就是一張紙那這張紙到底有沒有什麼用意只有對於守法的人才會有用"},{"start":64.924,"end":92.066,"text":"那法律上有 可是實際上有沒有實質花費保護的效力在根本就是形式上存在 實質上我認為是有點失敗的為什麼這樣提 像這次的案子裡面我們就來討論三個問題首先第一個問題就是這起案件也顯示我們的檢警在風險判斷上事實上是有明顯的失誤還有我們資訊的斷裂的問題因為導致我們的刑事程序"},{"start":92.566,"end":106.782,"text":"當然沒有辦法及時介入 加案早就已經多次違反保護令也有明確的威脅記錄 可是當天呢法院開完庭之後沒有拘提 沒有電子 交流等控制所以就等於事實上是無保請回"},{"start":107.603,"end":126.232,"text":"那這是一個很大的問題 就是土城分局資料提供的非常的少通報內容也過於簡略 風險就被低估了讓值班的檢察官在做判斷的時候根本就沒有辦法掌握到被害人真正面臨的危險程度所以沒有馬上去啟動說家庭暴力防治法第三章所有的 我今天這邊列的29條到38條這邊"},{"start":131.019,"end":140.123,"text":"這就這些實際上如果沒有看到這些機制被落實的話那今天這個案子如果講保護令的話根本就是一個空殼所以想問我們的"},{"start":144.573,"end":167.188,"text":"廖副署長這邊想問就是說為什麼土城分局到底事實上是警員的訓練不夠呢還是怎麼樣怎麼會既然他已經多次有威脅又有一些前面的一些狀況那為什麼會資料提供的這麼的少通報內容又很簡略當時這個保護令合法在執行的時候確實他這個"},{"start":169.946,"end":188.938,"text":"我們分局發現他有違反保護令狀的這個狀況那但是他們在執行的時候是因為雙方沒有碰面就是他雙方是做隔離然後而且被害人他們雙方都沒有接觸到被害人也跟你們陳述他碰到一些狀況為什麼資料提供的會是這麼簡略"},{"start":190.699,"end":217.939,"text":"在當時維環保齡罪逮捕的時候被害人對這方面的陳述還沒有很完整所以我們在歷次的施暴紀錄的部分我們以後會再加強訓練 遠景這方面的敏感度因為你這邊前面不夠多就引發了後端所以要問徐倉這邊今天同樣的值班的檢察官"},{"start":218.956,"end":224.201,"text":"他也算是我們覺得某種程度上事實上是漏接所以想問一下市長這邊說你針對這一塊怎麼去做檢討"},{"start":229.574,"end":250.14,"text":"我想我們已經開過這個協調會議那我們就希望說高風險的評估報告一定要隨著券進來甚至於有其他的一些市政也要跟著進來要增加一些素材讓檢察官在判斷是不是申請羈押的時候有所評據那也可以來說服法官來裁定羈押那這是一部分就是說"},{"start":250.86,"end":261.69,"text":"把當時的加害人 想要限制他的行動自由那這個是有效的可以防止因為你的資訊不夠 當然就是判斷就會失準所以現在問題是出在那裡我們內省檢察官手上沒有這些資料"},{"start":266.246,"end":274.015,"text":"所以為什麼會特別提出這樣子因為我們自己在看到我之前看你們的報告說有訓練 像是員警有訓練的話或者是在講說檢察官有訓練那我們就想問說"},{"start":283.505,"end":298.465,"text":"負責的檢查值班的他不是負有保護的專責人員那他到底受過什麼訓練像你們提的這些訓練裡面110年的確有邀請說什麼性侵者跟家暴者的心理風險評估跟動態因素的管理這110年"},{"start":300.908,"end":316.987,"text":"辦的訓練我知道如果這很重要112年有沒有辦112年有沒有辦就你112年又是換另外一個是重大兒女的經驗分享偵辦經驗分享112年變成是人口販運的防治法就想問說所有的這些檢察官都有受過"},{"start":318.008,"end":339.144,"text":"這樣的特別訓練如果不行的話照理來講應該有專責人員來做處理嘛所以我想問說當天值班的警察官他也不是婦幼的專責人員的話對於家暴的動態跟殺人預兆的敏感度明顯不足所以才會資料不齊全然後呢又缺乏一個專業的視角所以一直錯失了這樣子一個可以挽回的結果"},{"start":339.966,"end":357.854,"text":"報告委員我們不斷地會對檢察官做專業上面的訓練那委員你剛才提到一個問題就是內情因為我們的婦幼值班是有專族來值班那個婦幼案件那大部分都是性侵害案件不列同案那我們有特別的一個專責"},{"start":359.215,"end":374.992,"text":"可是這些人力不可能就是變成內勤因為內勤的話等於是每天都要有包括過年都要有人值班那有時候他因為維護保護令送進來的時候是內勤承接不是附幼的專屬承接所以會變成每個人"},{"start":376.653,"end":394.709,"text":"對 如果每個人都要的話那你應不應該要去加強每一個人基礎性專業我想我們檢察官基本上都有這種敏感度我們現在重點是在於我沒有東西判斷不是在於說檢察官到底他有沒有這一個敏感度而是我手上就是沒有資料這樣子的話檢察官誰來都一樣副業主來也是一樣"},{"start":395.029,"end":422.936,"text":"所以如果你這邊講的話那就是警政單位當初是他們分出來的東西不夠嗎這個大家的事絕對不是推給誰的事因為這就是我們希望可是只要有一個漏掉之後今天兩條人命耶是這個有時候這種非理性的話那一發生有時候我們前面的努力真的就會被檢討其實那種非理性的反應我們辦案子辦那麼多突然就發生我們預想不到的事情這個很遺憾可是我還是建議你們"},{"start":423.996,"end":435.621,"text":"我覺得工作人員的訓練真的要強化如果看你們這樣子的一個脈絡我會認為有些人也沒有辦法去接受比較完整的畢竟婦幼"},{"start":436.471,"end":459.324,"text":"父女跟他們還有孩子都是弱勢他們是需要我們國家來給保護的所以一樣的再來問衛福部的次長既然剛剛提到說那要將受害人先保護起來就需要衛福部來做配合沒錯因為我們剛剛前面這兩塊的專業你們有沒有提供相關的專業人員來讓他們"},{"start":461.866,"end":472.822,"text":"應該講當講師因為你可能換是主管機關你會是最了解這一方面的有曾經有提供嗎另外一個是我對受害人的保護的這個你的策略會是什麼"},{"start":474.153,"end":495.681,"text":"跟委員報告 其實我們都有一些相關的整個教育訓練跟宣導也有跟我們的司法院還有跟法務部這邊共同合作另外一個就是說其實我們在整個重大家暴的案件我們有一個整個處理機制就是重大的會議我們在上面會對像我們"},{"start":497.662,"end":525.833,"text":"前天就是針對這個土城案子我們來來做相關的一個教育的一個了解那另外一個部分是剛剛委員剛剛有特別關心的就是對於整個加害人還有這一個還有這一個受害者他們的整個相關的處遇計畫那這邊我們我承認就是這裡面整個一些未來我們的整個對於社工同仁這邊的一些相關的整個這一個"},{"start":526.854,"end":534.073,"text":"對 因為受害者還是實際上是你們的職責所在是是是 沒錯我們這邊的一個整個教育訓練我們應該也要來再進一步再來深化強化"},{"start":535.222,"end":562.049,"text":"所以就來問市長這邊問題三就是角色很模糊又沒有制度又沒有指引都很難去做為什麼加害人一度事實上是反控自己是被害人的是沒錯那導致系統面臨如果互為相對人或互為被害人的情境的話就會缺乏統一評估工具跟釐清機制沒有辦法分辨到底誰才是主動的施暴者所以針對這樣狀況一個想問市長說"},{"start":564.87,"end":577.339,"text":"今天一個家庭裡邊疑似加害者及被害者兩邊互控的時候常常社工你要他顧哪一邊啊兩邊的都顧的話那叫社工是扮演一個調解的角色嗎怎麼做得來"},{"start":579.908,"end":602.371,"text":"進行法律規定並沒有說誰才能夠這個申請這個通報所以目前的互為通報的確是一個變成常態但是我們也知道應該看到回到那個案件的本質家庭暴力特別是親密關係暴力的本質是什麼那將來我們在指引上面會很清楚的讓第一線社工人員知道"},{"start":602.811,"end":624.994,"text":"那接下來到底這種案件要誰為主誰為輔到底資源要怎麼樣配置我想這個部分已經在我們的工作計畫裡頭可能要快因為食物界也跟我反映說沒有這個指引的話有時候他們事實上是蠻難處理的那就要問市長什麼時候因為今天這個不是我剛剛講過不是第一期那互為這種"},{"start":626.448,"end":649.145,"text":"告對方的應該也蠻多的那我不知道你們指引什麼時候要出來我們的數據是有掌握但是至於那個指引的內容就給我們一些時間那一些時間是多久時間可以三個月嗎好那再麻煩三個月內把這個指引弄出來所以也麻煩我們的警政跟檢查法院的這個資訊平台的一個互通在"},{"start":650.006,"end":664.199,"text":"這些的歷史性的資料應該是要完整的而不是兼塗成分局送的比較少資料的時候使得我們的值班檢察官又漏接那護衛相對人的話麻煩這個評估工具在三個月內"},{"start":664.819,"end":684.475,"text":"那我認為今天整個刑事程序應該主動介入重大家暴案件因為這件看起來他已經多次就已經有在反映這件事情要明確的去訂定這些相關的案件的所以請我們的法務部可能針對我們的值班的檢察官還有我們的警政單位應該要加強你們的專業訓練以上 謝謝好 謝謝林委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1282,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（12時34分）主席，麻煩有請法務部徐次長……"],["主席：請次長。"],["林委員月琴：跟內政部廖副署長，還有衛福部的呂次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：三位午安。我相信今天司法及法制委員會會排這個主題，因為我們7月7號發生了這樣一個重大事件，這不是第一起。拿到保護令對於受害人到底有沒有實質意義？過去也曾經發生跑到人家家裡，把人家娘家的人全家都殺了，所以保護令明明就已經核發了，如果沒有搭配人身安全的計畫，也沒有即時監控加害人的行蹤的話，事實上，這就是一張紙，這張紙到底有什麼用？只有對於守法的人才會有用，現在保護令在法律上有，可是有沒有實質發揮保護的效力？這根本就是形式上存在，實質上，我認為是有點失敗的。","為什麼這樣提？像這次的案子裡面，我們來討論三個問題。首先，第一個問題，這起案件也顯示我們的檢警在風險判斷上，事實上有明顯的失誤，還有資訊斷鏈的問題，導致刑事程序當然沒有辦法及時介入。加害人早就已經多次違反保護令，也有明確的威脅紀錄，可是當天法院開完庭之後，沒有拘提、沒有電子腳鐐等控制措施，就無保請回。這有一個很大的問題，就是土城分局資料提供得非常的少，通報內容也過於簡略，風險就被低估，讓值班的檢察官在做判斷的時候，根本就沒有辦法掌握到被害人真正面臨的危險程度，所以也沒有辦法馬上去啟動家庭暴力防治法第三章所有我今天這邊列的，第二十九條到第三十八條，如果沒有看到這些機制被落實，今天這個案子講保護令的話，根本就是一個空殼，所以想問廖副署長，土城分局是警員的訓練不夠？還是怎麼樣？既然他已經多次威脅，又有一些前面的狀況，為什麼資料提供這麼的少、通報內容又很簡略？"],["廖副署長美鈴：當時這個保護令核發在執行的時候，確實我們分局發現他有違反保護令狀的狀況，但是他們在執行的時候，因為雙方沒有碰面，就是雙方是做隔離，而且雙方都沒有接觸到……"],["林委員月琴：被害人有跟你們陳述他碰到的一些狀況，為什麼資料提供會這麼簡略？"],["廖副署長美鈴：在當時他因違反保護令罪被逮捕的時候，被害人對這方面的陳述還沒有很完整，我們以後會再加強訓練員警這方面的敏感度。"],["林委員月琴：因為你這邊前面的資料不夠多，就引發了後端的事情。我也要問徐次長，今天值班的檢察官，我們覺得他某種程度上是漏接，所以想問一下次長，你針對這一塊怎麼去做檢討？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們已經開過協調會議，我們希望高風險的評估報告一定要隨著卷進來，甚至於有其他的一些事證也要跟著進來，要增加一些素材，讓檢察官在判斷是不是聲請羈押的時候有所憑據，也可以說服法官來裁定羈押，這是一部分，就是限制加害人的行動自由，這個是有效的可以防止……"],["林委員月琴：因為你的資訊不夠，當然判斷就會失準，所以連值班的檢察官都這樣……"],["徐次長錫祥：對，所以現在問題出在這裡，我們內勤的檢察官手上沒有這些資料。"],["林委員月琴：為什麼我會特別提出這個問題？因為我之前看你們的報告說有訓練，如果員警有訓練的話，或是檢察官有訓練，我們就想問說，負責值班的，他不是婦幼保護的專責人員，那他到底受過什麼訓練？像你們提的這些訓練裡面，110年的確有性侵者跟家暴者的心理風險評估跟動態因素的管理，這是110年辦的訓練，如果這很重要，112年有沒有辦？113年有沒有辦？結果112年又是換另外一個課程，是重大兒虐偵辦的經驗分享，113年變成是人口販運防制法。所有這些檢察官都有受過這樣的特別訓練，如果不行的話，照理來講，應該有專責人員來做處理嘛，所以我想問說，當天值班的檢察官，他也不是婦幼的專責人員的話，對於家暴的動態跟殺人預兆的敏感度明顯不足，所以才會資料不齊全，又缺乏專業的視角，以致錯失了一個可以挽回的結果。"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，我們不斷的會對檢察官做專業上面的訓練，委員剛才提到一個問題就是內勤，因為我們的婦幼值班是由專組來值班，婦幼案件大部分都性侵害案件、虐童案，我們有特別的一個專責，可是這些人力不可能變成內勤，因為內勤的話，等於是每天都要有人值班，包括過年都要有人值班，有時候，因為違反保護令送進來的時候是內勤承接，不是婦幼的專組承接，所以會變成每個人都有可能接到……"],["林委員月琴：對，如果每個人都要的話，那你應不應該要去加強每一個人基礎性的專業？"],["徐次長錫祥：我想我們檢察官基本上都有這種敏感度，我們現在重點是在於我沒有東西判斷，不是在於說檢察官到底有沒有這個敏感度，而是我手上就是沒有資料，這樣子的話，檢察官誰來都一樣，婦幼組來也是一樣。"],["林委員月琴：如果你這樣講的話，那就是警政單位，當初是他們給出來的東西不夠嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：不是，這個是大家的事，絕對不是推給誰的事，我們希望……"],["林委員月琴：可是只要有一個lose掉之後，今天是失去2條人命欸！"],["徐次長錫祥：是，有時候這種非理性的事情一發生，我們前面的努力真的就會被檢討，其實那種非理性的反應，我們辦案子辦那麼多，突然就發生我們預想不到的事情，這個很遺憾。"],["林委員月琴：可是還是建議你們，我覺得工作人員的訓練真的要強化……"],["徐次長錫祥：我們一直持續在做……"],["林委員月琴：看你們這樣的脈絡，我會認為有些人也沒有辦法去接受比較完整的訓練，畢竟婦幼、婦女跟孩子都是弱勢，他們是需要我們國家來給予保護。"],["徐次長錫祥：是，我們知道。"],["林委員月琴：一樣的，再來問衛福部次長，既然剛剛提到要將受害人先保護起來，就需要衛福部來配合。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["林委員月琴：我們剛剛講的這兩塊專業，你們有沒有提供相關的專業人員來當講師？因為你是主管機關，你是最了解這一方面，所以你們曾經有提供講師嗎？另外，對於受害人的保護，你的策略是什麼？"],["呂次長建德：跟委員報告，其實我們都有一些相關教育訓練跟宣導，也有跟司法院、法務部共同合作。另外，在重大家暴的案件，我們有整個處理機制，就是重大的會議，像我們前天就針對這個土城的案子做相關的了解。另外一部分，是剛剛委員有特別關心的，就是對於加害人還有受害者相關的處遇計畫，我承認，這裡面未來我們對於社工同仁的一些相關的……"],["林委員月琴：對，因為保護受害人事實上是你們的職責所在。"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯，我們這邊的教育訓練，應該也要再進一步深化、強化。"],["林委員月琴：所以來問次長，問題三，角色很模糊、制度又沒有指引，就會很難去做。加害人一度反控自己是被害人，導致系統面臨互為相對人或互為被害人的情境的話，就會缺乏統一評估工具跟釐清機制，沒辦法分辨到底誰才是主動的施暴者？所以針對這樣的狀況，我想問次長，今天在一個家庭裡面疑似加害者及被害者兩邊互控的時候，你要社工顧哪一邊？兩邊都要顧的話，那是叫社工扮演一個調解的角色嗎？他怎麼做得來？"],["張司長秀鴛：現行法律並沒有規定誰才能夠通報，所以目前互為通報的確變成常態，但是我們也知道，應該要回到那個案件的本質，就是看家庭暴力──特別是親密關係暴力的本質是什麼，將來我們在指引上面會很清楚地讓第一線的社工人員知道，接下來這種案件到底是要誰為主、誰為輔，到底資源要怎麼樣配置，我想這個部分已經在我們的工作計畫裡頭……"],["林委員月琴：可能要快，因為實務界也有跟我反映，如果沒有這個指引的話，有時候他們事實上是蠻難處理的，所以就要問司長什麼時候會有，我剛剛也講過，這個不是第一起，像這種互告對方的案子應該也蠻多的，已經這麼多年了，我不知道你們的指引什麼時候要出來。"],["張司長秀鴛：我們對數據是有掌握，至於那個指引的內容，就給我們一些時間，那我建議……"],["林委員月琴：一些時間是多久的時間？"],["張司長秀鴛：3個月可以嗎？"],["林委員月琴：好，再麻煩3個月內把這個指引弄出來，也麻煩警政跟檢察、法院的資訊平臺要互通，像這些歷史性的資料應該是要完整的，而不是像土城分局送的資料比較少的時候，使得值班檢察官又漏接。互為相對人的話，麻煩在3個月內設計出評估工具，我認為今天整個刑事程序應該主動介入重大家暴案件，像這個案件看起來他已經多次反映這件事情，所以要明確地去訂定這些相關案件的規範，所以請法務部針對值班的檢察官還有警政單位要加強專業訓練。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝林委員。","我補充一下，就是剛剛林委員所提到的確實是實務上面的問題，那我們要跟法務部講，因為收案的內勤檢察官可能不是婦幼專組的，剛剛林委員有提到，就教育訓練的部分不能只專注在婦幼專組，我覺得這個有必要，在實務上面，這部分再麻煩次長能夠協助處理一下。另外，就是我們今天有提到，要麻煩警政署在製作筆錄的時候注意，因為檢察官在訊問時通常被害人不會到場，只有被告會到場，在這部分就可能會產生檢察官所拿到的歷史資料是不足的，就像我剛剛所提到的，可能已經有家暴20年了，但是送到地檢署的資料只有當次的，在檢察官來說，他會以為這是多年來偶發的一個事情，所以就沒有聲請羈押，這部分可能要麻煩警政署，要請警察在製作筆錄的時候一定要再問被害人他們跟被告相處的一些狀況，提供給檢察官據以判斷，好嗎？","最後，法務部這一次給的報告就策進作為的部分其實沒有內容，在裡面只有講到你們開了幾次會，然後做了怎麼樣的宣導以及適用的法條，但是這個東西是不足的，像司法院在策進作為裡面就有提到介接的部分，有詳細去論述這一塊，但是法務部的報告都沒有，所以請法務部在兩個禮拜內就策進作為的部分補一份資料給我，說明到底要怎麼做，好不好？不然你們原本給我的資料是只有論述你們過往開了幾次會，並沒有說明策進作為，好不好？"],["徐次長錫祥：好。"],["主席：謝謝。","今天所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。委員范雲、王鴻薇、徐欣瑩所提書面質詢均列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":144,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-22","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","林倩綺","王義川","翁曉玲","沈發惠","羅智強","李坤城","吳思瑤","莊瑞雄","陳培瑜","林月琴","范雲","王鴻薇","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2025-07-16"],"gazette_id":"1146701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部部長、內政部警政署署長、教育部、勞動部、內\n政部移民署率所屬相關單位列席就「保護令不是萬能的?!如何避免憾事再度發生。家庭暴力防治\n法保護令核發，研析配套措施之檢討與精進，並提供相關統計數據」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146701_00002"}}}