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{\"word\": \"執\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 408.17, \"end\": 408.19, \"score\": 0.562}]}, {\"start\": 409.091, \"end\": 427.399, \"text\": \"那另外就是說剛才的這種制度的調整那我們現在正在預告我剛剛在講的是說你們的行政手段裡面行政措施裡面假如是以停止售電那我覺得是多方不利你懂我的意思嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 409.091, \"end\": 409.631, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"另\", \"start\": 409.631, \"end\": 409.791, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 409.791, \"end\": 410.212, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 410.212, \"end\": 410.352, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 410.352, \"end\": 411.572, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 411.572, \"end\": 411.792, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 411.792, \"end\": 412.673, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 412.673, \"end\": 412.853, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 412.853, \"end\": 413.073, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": 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\"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 686.884, \"end\": 687.685, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 687.685, \"end\": 687.845, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 687.845, \"end\": 688.865, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 688.865, \"end\": 689.005, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"顏\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 689.005, \"end\": 689.085, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"副\", \"start\": 689.085, \"end\": 689.305, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 689.305, \"end\": 689.325, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,285 --> 00:00:24,872\n謝謝主席主席我請一下經濟部能源署代理署長李署長委員好署長好署長我先問一個問題就是你在能源署\n\n2\n00:00:32,622 --> 00:00:56,979\n大概多久了30年了我想要先請問一下就是就你的在推動能源的過程因為能源轉型推動綠能這個是全球的一個趨勢幾乎共識就是一致性的方向為什麼在台灣\n\n3\n00:00:58,519 --> 00:01:11,666\n惹了這麼多的爭議出來你能不能就你在公職上持平一點講沒有關係因為這個政策方向一定是對的\n\n4\n00:01:14,399 --> 00:01:38,190\n假如是有問題的不只台灣是全球都一致在推動嘛你講一下不用太有壓力我覺得這個是全球的趨勢而且包括國內反對說有什麼不好的人他也從來不會說他是反對綠能那通常他是認為就是說這個綠能的位置不對不適當\n\n5\n00:01:40,071 --> 00:01:59,254\n那我想這跟台灣的人口稠密是有關係的在國外它常常可以在一些比較空曠的地方附近的居民比較少所以它這樣的問題會比較少那台灣因為人口稠密所以我們在審核的時候像太陽光電我們推動的時候我們就要求就是說\n\n6\n00:01:59,935 --> 00:02:27,440\n他一定要以農業為主然後光電為輔我們用共生的方式來不影響原來土地的利用那所以我們會特別朝這一方面那另外一方面在台灣的話我們特別推動屋頂屋頂型的在台灣特別多那因為屋頂型的對環境生態影響相對是小的那在國外比較少屋頂型大部分都是大片的土地做地面型但相對我們在台灣地面型是\n\n7\n00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:52,106\n目前發展的是比屋頂型的要慢地面型的規模經濟比較符合經濟效用對但如果它的暗場大會有經濟規模剛剛講到人口稠密我覺得可能影響比較大的不是太陽光板可能是反而是風力發電\n\n8\n00:02:54,267 --> 00:03:07,532\n是目前我們的風力發電主要的是做離岸的那陸域的我們已經就剛才講人口層面慢慢漸居於飽和了那我們沒有特別再去獎勵或是推動反對的聲音也大啦這個就還蠻可惜的啦所以\n\n9\n00:03:15,313 --> 00:03:43,932\n署長的意見就是覺得是因為人口稠密所以造成我們在推動上先天上就比較有一定的困難就是說跟居民的溝通就很重要所以我們現在修改過去是要施工前才要開這個說明會我們現在是說你在核准之前那麼就要先開公開說明會讓附近的居民能夠了解那核准以後你要再\n\n10\n00:03:45,013 --> 00:04:02,564\n開公開說明會讓附近的民眾知道你核准的狀況這個程序當然是一定要啦我是覺得比較可惜啦就是一個能源轉型可以減少空汙減少很多環境的迫害的一個\n\n11\n00:04:04,645 --> 00:04:16,317\n方向在台灣好像一直有爭議出來所以你也剛好在這邊服務30年所以就請教你一下我問幾個問題署長審計部在112年度審計報告中指出政府為了要落實經濟循環利用\n\n12\n00:04:28,909 --> 00:04:41,167\n向太陽光電的業者收取模組的回收費用但是報告指出經濟部能源署就是\n\n13\n00:04:42,475 --> 00:05:03,059\n有估計說我這個數據是在112年審計報告裡面的110年到112年大概還有沒有繳納的金額有接近4億你們主要的原因審計報告也有指出是行政疏失那你們現在這4億元\n\n14\n00:05:07,631 --> 00:05:31,777\n吹腳的情況怎麼樣我們已經持續跟他吹腳那如果他沒有腳的話那我們現在修正法令我們就會停止他的售電就不讓他賣電了那另外一方面我們對一個機制也做了一個檢討因為剛才事實上前幾位委員也一直問到就是說我們目前就是要分10年來繳交\n\n15\n00:05:32,737 --> 00:05:51,737\n那我們現在也已經在預告修改這個制度了他必須要在商轉的第一年就要把所有的錢都繳齊我知道我是說之前的嘛那署長你剛才說假如說他沒有繳納你們就要停止售店那我覺得這個行政手段\n\n16\n00:05:53,534 --> 00:06:13,546\n有一點問題就是你們沒有辦法對公司去做追款嗎因為我們最主要設置就是要讓他綠能發電要讓他受電你應該是讓他受電然後才從受電的所得拿到錢\n\n17\n00:06:14,767 --> 00:06:29,348\n你們現在講說手段是停止售電我覺得是有問題的報告兩個部分一個就是說剛才問到就是說我們現在收取的金錢剛才講112年的金錢那我們大概催收了之後目前大概90%已經繳交了\n\n18\n00:06:31,311 --> 00:06:48,190\n還有百分之八的金額沒有繳交那我會繼續跟他催收那另外他如果還沒有催收的話那我們給他的期限是到今年的八月十二他如果還沒有繳我們就會移送行政執行\n\n19\n00:06:49,091 --> 00:07:07,399\n那另外就是說剛才的這種制度的調整那我們現在正在預告我剛剛在講的是說你們的行政手段裡面行政措施裡面假如是以停止售電那我覺得是多方不利你懂我的意思嗎\n\n20\n00:07:08,039 --> 00:07:26,338\n我了解那個其實我們原來最早的想法因為他售電台電要付他電費就直接從台電付他的電費裡面扣掉了那但是後來法律我們看到法律說我們不能這樣子做除非有法律的規定要不然那是他要收的錢政府不能扣\n\n21\n00:07:27,079 --> 00:07:53,650\n那所以我們現在的方法另外就是說停止台電跟他購電這樣我們就不用追繳可是這個就比較荒謬啦因為他是回收機組的錢嘛你去停止他受電我們本來就是設置太陽能光板就是要發電嘛那他停止受電他就沒有發電嘛我覺得應該是看能不能跟還沒有繳的業者去做\n\n22\n00:07:56,973 --> 00:08:10,988\n協調或是做一個三方的和解契約懂我意思嗎我覺得這個在法律上是可以做處理的\n\n23\n00:08:12,069 --> 00:08:37,165\n停止受騙本席覺得是比較不好的因為我們當時是覺得停止受騙對他來講是很重大的有壓力啦對他來講有壓力啦可是就是怪啦所以你們回去跟法治人員看看有沒有辦法讓他受騙然後三方\n\n24\n00:08:37,905 --> 00:08:48,892\n打成一個和解企業由台電來支付給國庫懂我意思嗎我覺得我們在發展綠能的過程已經那麼多爭議了那麼多困難了它設置了反而要去禁止它售電這個我覺得不行好不好\n\n25\n00:09:14,630 --> 00:09:27,202\n台南有一個招廢紙容許使用的農電共生的暗場我直接問假如說暗場\n\n26\n00:09:32,056 --> 00:09:47,816\n暗場廢止了以後太陽能光板沒有移除暗場的部分是由經濟部來負責太陽能光板的處理是環境部對不對暗場的復原你們現在有沒有建立一定的規範\n\n27\n00:09:50,458 --> 00:10:08,971\n暗場的復原就要看他原來的土地的使用分區能不能做如果他是因為他當時的使用分區是特別容許太陽光電現在沒有做太陽光電他就要恢復原狀了他就要恢復原狀是那他只要沒有恢復原狀你們有沒有一定的\n\n28\n00:10:12,173 --> 00:10:32,651\n就是他就會違反土地分區使用的管制的規定那就會由土地分區使用管制規定的土地法來處罰他就是用土地分區管制相關法律來處理來處罰所以暗場的復原你們是不用另外建立\n\n29\n00:10:35,308 --> 00:10:47,921\n我們就是依照現在法律的規定它的土地食用分區可以使用的狀況來做處理好我最後還是講一下就是全球是在推動能不能轉型\n\n30\n00:10:49,481 --> 00:11:07,357\n綠能絕對是首要的選擇希望好的政策我們可以透過溝通不管是跟民眾跟在野黨能夠透過溝通讓好的能源政策可以落實\n\n31\n00:11:08,638 --> 00:11:29,325\n不要好像現在講到台灣很可惜就是有一部分是事實有一部分是宣傳炒作抹黑造成好像大家對綠能都怕怕的這個還蠻可惜的好謝謝署長謝謝主席好謝謝顏委員謝謝副署長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8285\t24872\t謝謝主席主席我請一下經濟部能源署代理署長李署長委員好 署長好 署長我先問一個問題就是你在能源署\n32622\t56979\t大概多久了30年了我想要先請問一下就是就你的在推動能源的過程因為能源轉型推動綠能這個是全球的一個趨勢幾乎共識就是一致性的方向為什麼在台灣\n58519\t71666\t惹了這麼多的爭議出來你能不能就你在公職上持平一點講沒有關係因為這個政策方向一定是對的\n74399\t98190\t假如是有問題的不只台灣是全球都一致在推動嘛你講一下不用太有壓力我覺得這個是全球的趨勢而且包括國內反對說有什麼不好的人他也從來不會說他是反對綠能那通常他是認為就是說這個綠能的位置不對不適當\n100071\t119254\t那我想這跟台灣的人口稠密是有關係的在國外它常常可以在一些比較空曠的地方附近的居民比較少所以它這樣的問題會比較少那台灣因為人口稠密所以我們在審核的時候像太陽光電我們推動的時候我們就要求就是說\n119935\t147440\t他一定要以農業為主然後光電為輔我們用共生的方式來不影響原來土地的利用那所以我們會特別朝這一方面那另外一方面在台灣的話我們特別推動屋頂屋頂型的在台灣特別多那因為屋頂型的對環境生態影響相對是小的那在國外比較少屋頂型大部分都是大片的土地做地面型但相對我們在台灣地面型是\n149000\t172106\t目前發展的是比屋頂型的要慢地面型的規模經濟比較符合經濟效用對 但如果它的暗場大會有經濟規模剛剛講到人口稠密我覺得可能影響比較大的不是太陽光板可能是反而是風力發電\n174267\t187532\t是目前我們的風力發電主要的是做離岸的那陸域的我們已經就剛才講人口層面慢慢漸居於飽和了那我們沒有特別再去獎勵或是推動反對的聲音也大啦這個就還蠻可惜的啦所以\n195313\t223932\t署長的意見就是覺得是因為人口稠密所以造成我們在推動上先天上就比較有一定的困難就是說跟居民的溝通就很重要所以我們現在修改過去是要施工前才要開這個說明會我們現在是說你在核准之前那麼就要先開公開說明會讓附近的居民能夠了解那核准以後你要再\n225013\t242564\t開公開說明會讓附近的民眾知道你核准的狀況這個程序當然是一定要啦我是覺得比較可惜啦就是一個能源轉型可以減少空汙減少很多環境的迫害的一個\n244645\t256317\t方向在台灣好像一直有爭議出來所以你也剛好在這邊服務30年所以就請教你一下我問幾個問題署長審計部在112年度審計報告中指出政府為了要落實經濟循環利用\n268909\t281167\t向太陽光電的業者收取模組的回收費用但是報告指出經濟部能源署就是\n282475\t303059\t有估計說我這個數據是在112年審計報告裡面的110年到112年大概還有沒有繳納的金額有接近4億你們主要的原因審計報告也有指出是行政疏失那你們現在這4億元\n307631\t331777\t吹腳的情況怎麼樣我們已經持續跟他吹腳那如果他沒有腳的話那我們現在修正法令我們就會停止他的售電就不讓他賣電了那另外一方面我們對一個機制也做了一個檢討因為剛才事實上前幾位委員也一直問到就是說我們目前就是要分10年來繳交\n332737\t351737\t那我們現在也已經在預告修改這個制度了他必須要在商轉的第一年就要把所有的錢都繳齊我知道我是說之前的嘛那署長你剛才說假如說他沒有繳納你們就要停止售店那我覺得這個行政手段\n353534\t373546\t有一點問題就是你們沒有辦法對公司去做追款嗎因為我們最主要設置就是要讓他綠能發電要讓他受電你應該是讓他受電然後才從受電的所得拿到錢\n374767\t389348\t你們現在講說手段是停止售電我覺得是有問題的報告兩個部分一個就是說剛才問到就是說我們現在收取的金錢剛才講112年的金錢那我們大概催收了之後目前大概90%已經繳交了\n391311\t408190\t還有百分之八的金額沒有繳交那我會繼續跟他催收那另外他如果還沒有催收的話那我們給他的期限是到今年的八月十二他如果還沒有繳我們就會移送行政執行\n409091\t427399\t那另外就是說剛才的這種制度的調整那我們現在正在預告我剛剛在講的是說你們的行政手段裡面行政措施裡面假如是以停止售電那我覺得是多方不利你懂我的意思嗎\n428039\t446338\t我了解那個其實我們原來最早的想法因為他售電台電要付他電費就直接從台電付他的電費裡面扣掉了那但是後來法律我們看到法律說我們不能這樣子做除非有法律的規定要不然那是他要收的錢政府不能扣\n447079\t473650\t那所以我們現在的方法另外就是說停止台電跟他購電這樣我們就不用追繳可是這個就比較荒謬啦因為他是回收機組的錢嘛你去停止他受電我們本來就是設置太陽能光板就是要發電嘛那他停止受電他就沒有發電嘛我覺得應該是看能不能跟還沒有繳的業者去做\n476973\t490988\t協調或是做一個三方的和解契約懂我意思嗎我覺得這個在法律上是可以做處理的\n492069\t517165\t停止受騙本席覺得是比較不好的因為我們當時是覺得停止受騙對他來講是很重大的有壓力啦 對他來講有壓力啦可是就是怪啦所以你們回去跟法治人員看看有沒有辦法讓他受騙然後三方\n517905\t528892\t打成一個和解企業由台電來支付給國庫懂我意思嗎我覺得我們在發展綠能的過程已經那麼多爭議了那麼多困難了它設置了反而要去禁止它售電這個我覺得不行好不好\n554630\t567202\t台南有一個招廢紙容許使用的農電共生的暗場我直接問 假如說暗場\n572056\t587816\t暗場廢止了以後太陽能光板沒有移除暗場的部分是由經濟部來負責太陽能光板的處理是環境部對不對暗場的復原你們現在有沒有建立一定的規範\n590458\t608971\t暗場的復原就要看他原來的土地的使用分區能不能做如果他是因為他當時的使用分區是特別容許太陽光電現在沒有做太陽光電他就要恢復原狀了他就要恢復原狀 是那他只要沒有恢復原狀你們有沒有一定的\n612173\t632651\t就是他就會違反土地分區使用的管制的規定那就會由土地分區使用管制規定的土地法來處罰他就是用土地分區管制相關法律來處理來處罰所以暗場的復原你們是不用另外建立\n635308\t647921\t我們就是依照現在法律的規定它的土地食用分區可以使用的狀況來做處理好我最後還是講一下就是全球是在推動能不能轉型\n649481\t667357\t綠能絕對是首要的選擇希望好的政策我們可以透過溝通不管是跟民眾跟在野黨能夠透過溝通讓好的能源政策可以落實\n668638\t689325\t不要好像現在講到台灣很可惜就是有一部分是事實有一部分是宣傳炒作抹黑造成好像大家對綠能都怕怕的這個還蠻可惜的好 謝謝署長 謝謝主席好 謝謝顏委員 謝謝副署長\n","txt":"謝謝主席主席我請一下經濟部能源署代理署長李署長委員好 署長好 署長我先問一個問題就是你在能源署\n大概多久了30年了我想要先請問一下就是就你的在推動能源的過程因為能源轉型推動綠能這個是全球的一個趨勢幾乎共識就是一致性的方向為什麼在台灣\n惹了這麼多的爭議出來你能不能就你在公職上持平一點講沒有關係因為這個政策方向一定是對的\n假如是有問題的不只台灣是全球都一致在推動嘛你講一下不用太有壓力我覺得這個是全球的趨勢而且包括國內反對說有什麼不好的人他也從來不會說他是反對綠能那通常他是認為就是說這個綠能的位置不對不適當\n那我想這跟台灣的人口稠密是有關係的在國外它常常可以在一些比較空曠的地方附近的居民比較少所以它這樣的問題會比較少那台灣因為人口稠密所以我們在審核的時候像太陽光電我們推動的時候我們就要求就是說\n他一定要以農業為主然後光電為輔我們用共生的方式來不影響原來土地的利用那所以我們會特別朝這一方面那另外一方面在台灣的話我們特別推動屋頂屋頂型的在台灣特別多那因為屋頂型的對環境生態影響相對是小的那在國外比較少屋頂型大部分都是大片的土地做地面型但相對我們在台灣地面型是\n目前發展的是比屋頂型的要慢地面型的規模經濟比較符合經濟效用對 但如果它的暗場大會有經濟規模剛剛講到人口稠密我覺得可能影響比較大的不是太陽光板可能是反而是風力發電\n是目前我們的風力發電主要的是做離岸的那陸域的我們已經就剛才講人口層面慢慢漸居於飽和了那我們沒有特別再去獎勵或是推動反對的聲音也大啦這個就還蠻可惜的啦所以\n署長的意見就是覺得是因為人口稠密所以造成我們在推動上先天上就比較有一定的困難就是說跟居民的溝通就很重要所以我們現在修改過去是要施工前才要開這個說明會我們現在是說你在核准之前那麼就要先開公開說明會讓附近的居民能夠了解那核准以後你要再\n開公開說明會讓附近的民眾知道你核准的狀況這個程序當然是一定要啦我是覺得比較可惜啦就是一個能源轉型可以減少空汙減少很多環境的迫害的一個\n方向在台灣好像一直有爭議出來所以你也剛好在這邊服務30年所以就請教你一下我問幾個問題署長審計部在112年度審計報告中指出政府為了要落實經濟循環利用\n向太陽光電的業者收取模組的回收費用但是報告指出經濟部能源署就是\n有估計說我這個數據是在112年審計報告裡面的110年到112年大概還有沒有繳納的金額有接近4億你們主要的原因審計報告也有指出是行政疏失那你們現在這4億元\n吹腳的情況怎麼樣我們已經持續跟他吹腳那如果他沒有腳的話那我們現在修正法令我們就會停止他的售電就不讓他賣電了那另外一方面我們對一個機制也做了一個檢討因為剛才事實上前幾位委員也一直問到就是說我們目前就是要分10年來繳交\n那我們現在也已經在預告修改這個制度了他必須要在商轉的第一年就要把所有的錢都繳齊我知道我是說之前的嘛那署長你剛才說假如說他沒有繳納你們就要停止售店那我覺得這個行政手段\n有一點問題就是你們沒有辦法對公司去做追款嗎因為我們最主要設置就是要讓他綠能發電要讓他受電你應該是讓他受電然後才從受電的所得拿到錢\n你們現在講說手段是停止售電我覺得是有問題的報告兩個部分一個就是說剛才問到就是說我們現在收取的金錢剛才講112年的金錢那我們大概催收了之後目前大概90%已經繳交了\n還有百分之八的金額沒有繳交那我會繼續跟他催收那另外他如果還沒有催收的話那我們給他的期限是到今年的八月十二他如果還沒有繳我們就會移送行政執行\n那另外就是說剛才的這種制度的調整那我們現在正在預告我剛剛在講的是說你們的行政手段裡面行政措施裡面假如是以停止售電那我覺得是多方不利你懂我的意思嗎\n我了解那個其實我們原來最早的想法因為他售電台電要付他電費就直接從台電付他的電費裡面扣掉了那但是後來法律我們看到法律說我們不能這樣子做除非有法律的規定要不然那是他要收的錢政府不能扣\n那所以我們現在的方法另外就是說停止台電跟他購電這樣我們就不用追繳可是這個就比較荒謬啦因為他是回收機組的錢嘛你去停止他受電我們本來就是設置太陽能光板就是要發電嘛那他停止受電他就沒有發電嘛我覺得應該是看能不能跟還沒有繳的業者去做\n協調或是做一個三方的和解契約懂我意思嗎我覺得這個在法律上是可以做處理的\n停止受騙本席覺得是比較不好的因為我們當時是覺得停止受騙對他來講是很重大的有壓力啦 對他來講有壓力啦可是就是怪啦所以你們回去跟法治人員看看有沒有辦法讓他受騙然後三方\n打成一個和解企業由台電來支付給國庫懂我意思嗎我覺得我們在發展綠能的過程已經那麼多爭議了那麼多困難了它設置了反而要去禁止它售電這個我覺得不行好不好\n台南有一個招廢紙容許使用的農電共生的暗場我直接問 假如說暗場\n暗場廢止了以後太陽能光板沒有移除暗場的部分是由經濟部來負責太陽能光板的處理是環境部對不對暗場的復原你們現在有沒有建立一定的規範\n暗場的復原就要看他原來的土地的使用分區能不能做如果他是因為他當時的使用分區是特別容許太陽光電現在沒有做太陽光電他就要恢復原狀了他就要恢復原狀 是那他只要沒有恢復原狀你們有沒有一定的\n就是他就會違反土地分區使用的管制的規定那就會由土地分區使用管制規定的土地法來處罰他就是用土地分區管制相關法律來處理來處罰所以暗場的復原你們是不用另外建立\n我們就是依照現在法律的規定它的土地食用分區可以使用的狀況來做處理好我最後還是講一下就是全球是在推動能不能轉型\n綠能絕對是首要的選擇希望好的政策我們可以透過溝通不管是跟民眾跟在野黨能夠透過溝通讓好的能源政策可以落實\n不要好像現在講到台灣很可惜就是有一部分是事實有一部分是宣傳炒作抹黑造成好像大家對綠能都怕怕的這個還蠻可惜的好 謝謝署長 謝謝主席好 謝謝顏委員 謝謝副署長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.285 --> 00:24.872\n謝謝主席主席我請一下經濟部能源署代理署長李署長委員好署長好署長我先問一個問題就是你在能源署\n\n00:32.622 --> 00:56.979\n大概多久了30年了我想要先請問一下就是就你的在推動能源的過程因為能源轉型推動綠能這個是全球的一個趨勢幾乎共識就是一致性的方向為什麼在台灣\n\n00:58.519 --> 01:11.666\n惹了這麼多的爭議出來你能不能就你在公職上持平一點講沒有關係因為這個政策方向一定是對的\n\n01:14.399 --> 01:38.190\n假如是有問題的不只台灣是全球都一致在推動嘛你講一下不用太有壓力我覺得這個是全球的趨勢而且包括國內反對說有什麼不好的人他也從來不會說他是反對綠能那通常他是認為就是說這個綠能的位置不對不適當\n\n01:40.071 --> 01:59.254\n那我想這跟台灣的人口稠密是有關係的在國外它常常可以在一些比較空曠的地方附近的居民比較少所以它這樣的問題會比較少那台灣因為人口稠密所以我們在審核的時候像太陽光電我們推動的時候我們就要求就是說\n\n01:59.935 --> 02:27.440\n他一定要以農業為主然後光電為輔我們用共生的方式來不影響原來土地的利用那所以我們會特別朝這一方面那另外一方面在台灣的話我們特別推動屋頂屋頂型的在台灣特別多那因為屋頂型的對環境生態影響相對是小的那在國外比較少屋頂型大部分都是大片的土地做地面型但相對我們在台灣地面型是\n\n02:29.000 --> 02:52.106\n目前發展的是比屋頂型的要慢地面型的規模經濟比較符合經濟效用對但如果它的暗場大會有經濟規模剛剛講到人口稠密我覺得可能影響比較大的不是太陽光板可能是反而是風力發電\n\n02:54.267 --> 03:07.532\n是目前我們的風力發電主要的是做離岸的那陸域的我們已經就剛才講人口層面慢慢漸居於飽和了那我們沒有特別再去獎勵或是推動反對的聲音也大啦這個就還蠻可惜的啦所以\n\n03:15.313 --> 03:43.932\n署長的意見就是覺得是因為人口稠密所以造成我們在推動上先天上就比較有一定的困難就是說跟居民的溝通就很重要所以我們現在修改過去是要施工前才要開這個說明會我們現在是說你在核准之前那麼就要先開公開說明會讓附近的居民能夠了解那核准以後你要再\n\n03:45.013 --> 04:02.564\n開公開說明會讓附近的民眾知道你核准的狀況這個程序當然是一定要啦我是覺得比較可惜啦就是一個能源轉型可以減少空汙減少很多環境的迫害的一個\n\n04:04.645 --> 04:16.317\n方向在台灣好像一直有爭議出來所以你也剛好在這邊服務30年所以就請教你一下我問幾個問題署長審計部在112年度審計報告中指出政府為了要落實經濟循環利用\n\n04:28.909 --> 04:41.167\n向太陽光電的業者收取模組的回收費用但是報告指出經濟部能源署就是\n\n04:42.475 --> 05:03.059\n有估計說我這個數據是在112年審計報告裡面的110年到112年大概還有沒有繳納的金額有接近4億你們主要的原因審計報告也有指出是行政疏失那你們現在這4億元\n\n05:07.631 --> 05:31.777\n吹腳的情況怎麼樣我們已經持續跟他吹腳那如果他沒有腳的話那我們現在修正法令我們就會停止他的售電就不讓他賣電了那另外一方面我們對一個機制也做了一個檢討因為剛才事實上前幾位委員也一直問到就是說我們目前就是要分10年來繳交\n\n05:32.737 --> 05:51.737\n那我們現在也已經在預告修改這個制度了他必須要在商轉的第一年就要把所有的錢都繳齊我知道我是說之前的嘛那署長你剛才說假如說他沒有繳納你們就要停止售店那我覺得這個行政手段\n\n05:53.534 --> 06:13.546\n有一點問題就是你們沒有辦法對公司去做追款嗎因為我們最主要設置就是要讓他綠能發電要讓他受電你應該是讓他受電然後才從受電的所得拿到錢\n\n06:14.767 --> 06:29.348\n你們現在講說手段是停止售電我覺得是有問題的報告兩個部分一個就是說剛才問到就是說我們現在收取的金錢剛才講112年的金錢那我們大概催收了之後目前大概90%已經繳交了\n\n06:31.311 --> 06:48.190\n還有百分之八的金額沒有繳交那我會繼續跟他催收那另外他如果還沒有催收的話那我們給他的期限是到今年的八月十二他如果還沒有繳我們就會移送行政執行\n\n06:49.091 --> 07:07.399\n那另外就是說剛才的這種制度的調整那我們現在正在預告我剛剛在講的是說你們的行政手段裡面行政措施裡面假如是以停止售電那我覺得是多方不利你懂我的意思嗎\n\n07:08.039 --> 07:26.338\n我了解那個其實我們原來最早的想法因為他售電台電要付他電費就直接從台電付他的電費裡面扣掉了那但是後來法律我們看到法律說我們不能這樣子做除非有法律的規定要不然那是他要收的錢政府不能扣\n\n07:27.079 --> 07:53.650\n那所以我們現在的方法另外就是說停止台電跟他購電這樣我們就不用追繳可是這個就比較荒謬啦因為他是回收機組的錢嘛你去停止他受電我們本來就是設置太陽能光板就是要發電嘛那他停止受電他就沒有發電嘛我覺得應該是看能不能跟還沒有繳的業者去做\n\n07:56.973 --> 08:10.988\n協調或是做一個三方的和解契約懂我意思嗎我覺得這個在法律上是可以做處理的\n\n08:12.069 --> 08:37.165\n停止受騙本席覺得是比較不好的因為我們當時是覺得停止受騙對他來講是很重大的有壓力啦對他來講有壓力啦可是就是怪啦所以你們回去跟法治人員看看有沒有辦法讓他受騙然後三方\n\n08:37.905 --> 08:48.892\n打成一個和解企業由台電來支付給國庫懂我意思嗎我覺得我們在發展綠能的過程已經那麼多爭議了那麼多困難了它設置了反而要去禁止它售電這個我覺得不行好不好\n\n09:14.630 --> 09:27.202\n台南有一個招廢紙容許使用的農電共生的暗場我直接問假如說暗場\n\n09:32.056 --> 09:47.816\n暗場廢止了以後太陽能光板沒有移除暗場的部分是由經濟部來負責太陽能光板的處理是環境部對不對暗場的復原你們現在有沒有建立一定的規範\n\n09:50.458 --> 10:08.971\n暗場的復原就要看他原來的土地的使用分區能不能做如果他是因為他當時的使用分區是特別容許太陽光電現在沒有做太陽光電他就要恢復原狀了他就要恢復原狀是那他只要沒有恢復原狀你們有沒有一定的\n\n10:12.173 --> 10:32.651\n就是他就會違反土地分區使用的管制的規定那就會由土地分區使用管制規定的土地法來處罰他就是用土地分區管制相關法律來處理來處罰所以暗場的復原你們是不用另外建立\n\n10:35.308 --> 10:47.921\n我們就是依照現在法律的規定它的土地食用分區可以使用的狀況來做處理好我最後還是講一下就是全球是在推動能不能轉型\n\n10:49.481 --> 11:07.357\n綠能絕對是首要的選擇希望好的政策我們可以透過溝通不管是跟民眾跟在野黨能夠透過溝通讓好的能源政策可以落實\n\n11:08.638 --> 11:29.325\n不要好像現在講到台灣很可惜就是有一部分是事實有一部分是宣傳炒作抹黑造成好像大家對綠能都怕怕的這個還蠻可惜的好謝謝署長謝謝主席好謝謝顏委員謝謝副署長\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.285,"end":24.872,"text":"謝謝主席主席我請一下經濟部能源署代理署長李署長委員好 署長好 署長我先問一個問題就是你在能源署"},{"start":32.622,"end":56.979,"text":"大概多久了30年了我想要先請問一下就是就你的在推動能源的過程因為能源轉型推動綠能這個是全球的一個趨勢幾乎共識就是一致性的方向為什麼在台灣"},{"start":58.519,"end":71.666,"text":"惹了這麼多的爭議出來你能不能就你在公職上持平一點講沒有關係因為這個政策方向一定是對的"},{"start":74.399,"end":98.19,"text":"假如是有問題的不只台灣是全球都一致在推動嘛你講一下不用太有壓力我覺得這個是全球的趨勢而且包括國內反對說有什麼不好的人他也從來不會說他是反對綠能那通常他是認為就是說這個綠能的位置不對不適當"},{"start":100.071,"end":119.254,"text":"那我想這跟台灣的人口稠密是有關係的在國外它常常可以在一些比較空曠的地方附近的居民比較少所以它這樣的問題會比較少那台灣因為人口稠密所以我們在審核的時候像太陽光電我們推動的時候我們就要求就是說"},{"start":119.935,"end":147.44,"text":"他一定要以農業為主然後光電為輔我們用共生的方式來不影響原來土地的利用那所以我們會特別朝這一方面那另外一方面在台灣的話我們特別推動屋頂屋頂型的在台灣特別多那因為屋頂型的對環境生態影響相對是小的那在國外比較少屋頂型大部分都是大片的土地做地面型但相對我們在台灣地面型是"},{"start":149,"end":172.106,"text":"目前發展的是比屋頂型的要慢地面型的規模經濟比較符合經濟效用對 但如果它的暗場大會有經濟規模剛剛講到人口稠密我覺得可能影響比較大的不是太陽光板可能是反而是風力發電"},{"start":174.267,"end":187.532,"text":"是目前我們的風力發電主要的是做離岸的那陸域的我們已經就剛才講人口層面慢慢漸居於飽和了那我們沒有特別再去獎勵或是推動反對的聲音也大啦這個就還蠻可惜的啦所以"},{"start":195.313,"end":223.932,"text":"署長的意見就是覺得是因為人口稠密所以造成我們在推動上先天上就比較有一定的困難就是說跟居民的溝通就很重要所以我們現在修改過去是要施工前才要開這個說明會我們現在是說你在核准之前那麼就要先開公開說明會讓附近的居民能夠了解那核准以後你要再"},{"start":225.013,"end":242.564,"text":"開公開說明會讓附近的民眾知道你核准的狀況這個程序當然是一定要啦我是覺得比較可惜啦就是一個能源轉型可以減少空汙減少很多環境的迫害的一個"},{"start":244.645,"end":256.317,"text":"方向在台灣好像一直有爭議出來所以你也剛好在這邊服務30年所以就請教你一下我問幾個問題署長審計部在112年度審計報告中指出政府為了要落實經濟循環利用"},{"start":268.909,"end":281.167,"text":"向太陽光電的業者收取模組的回收費用但是報告指出經濟部能源署就是"},{"start":282.475,"end":303.059,"text":"有估計說我這個數據是在112年審計報告裡面的110年到112年大概還有沒有繳納的金額有接近4億你們主要的原因審計報告也有指出是行政疏失那你們現在這4億元"},{"start":307.631,"end":331.777,"text":"吹腳的情況怎麼樣我們已經持續跟他吹腳那如果他沒有腳的話那我們現在修正法令我們就會停止他的售電就不讓他賣電了那另外一方面我們對一個機制也做了一個檢討因為剛才事實上前幾位委員也一直問到就是說我們目前就是要分10年來繳交"},{"start":332.737,"end":351.737,"text":"那我們現在也已經在預告修改這個制度了他必須要在商轉的第一年就要把所有的錢都繳齊我知道我是說之前的嘛那署長你剛才說假如說他沒有繳納你們就要停止售店那我覺得這個行政手段"},{"start":353.534,"end":373.546,"text":"有一點問題就是你們沒有辦法對公司去做追款嗎因為我們最主要設置就是要讓他綠能發電要讓他受電你應該是讓他受電然後才從受電的所得拿到錢"},{"start":374.767,"end":389.348,"text":"你們現在講說手段是停止售電我覺得是有問題的報告兩個部分一個就是說剛才問到就是說我們現在收取的金錢剛才講112年的金錢那我們大概催收了之後目前大概90%已經繳交了"},{"start":391.311,"end":408.19,"text":"還有百分之八的金額沒有繳交那我會繼續跟他催收那另外他如果還沒有催收的話那我們給他的期限是到今年的八月十二他如果還沒有繳我們就會移送行政執行"},{"start":409.091,"end":427.399,"text":"那另外就是說剛才的這種制度的調整那我們現在正在預告我剛剛在講的是說你們的行政手段裡面行政措施裡面假如是以停止售電那我覺得是多方不利你懂我的意思嗎"},{"start":428.039,"end":446.338,"text":"我了解那個其實我們原來最早的想法因為他售電台電要付他電費就直接從台電付他的電費裡面扣掉了那但是後來法律我們看到法律說我們不能這樣子做除非有法律的規定要不然那是他要收的錢政府不能扣"},{"start":447.079,"end":473.65,"text":"那所以我們現在的方法另外就是說停止台電跟他購電這樣我們就不用追繳可是這個就比較荒謬啦因為他是回收機組的錢嘛你去停止他受電我們本來就是設置太陽能光板就是要發電嘛那他停止受電他就沒有發電嘛我覺得應該是看能不能跟還沒有繳的業者去做"},{"start":476.973,"end":490.988,"text":"協調或是做一個三方的和解契約懂我意思嗎我覺得這個在法律上是可以做處理的"},{"start":492.069,"end":517.165,"text":"停止受騙本席覺得是比較不好的因為我們當時是覺得停止受騙對他來講是很重大的有壓力啦 對他來講有壓力啦可是就是怪啦所以你們回去跟法治人員看看有沒有辦法讓他受騙然後三方"},{"start":517.905,"end":528.892,"text":"打成一個和解企業由台電來支付給國庫懂我意思嗎我覺得我們在發展綠能的過程已經那麼多爭議了那麼多困難了它設置了反而要去禁止它售電這個我覺得不行好不好"},{"start":554.63,"end":567.202,"text":"台南有一個招廢紙容許使用的農電共生的暗場我直接問 假如說暗場"},{"start":572.056,"end":587.816,"text":"暗場廢止了以後太陽能光板沒有移除暗場的部分是由經濟部來負責太陽能光板的處理是環境部對不對暗場的復原你們現在有沒有建立一定的規範"},{"start":590.458,"end":608.971,"text":"暗場的復原就要看他原來的土地的使用分區能不能做如果他是因為他當時的使用分區是特別容許太陽光電現在沒有做太陽光電他就要恢復原狀了他就要恢復原狀 是那他只要沒有恢復原狀你們有沒有一定的"},{"start":612.173,"end":632.651,"text":"就是他就會違反土地分區使用的管制的規定那就會由土地分區使用管制規定的土地法來處罰他就是用土地分區管制相關法律來處理來處罰所以暗場的復原你們是不用另外建立"},{"start":635.308,"end":647.921,"text":"我們就是依照現在法律的規定它的土地食用分區可以使用的狀況來做處理好我最後還是講一下就是全球是在推動能不能轉型"},{"start":649.481,"end":667.357,"text":"綠能絕對是首要的選擇希望好的政策我們可以透過溝通不管是跟民眾跟在野黨能夠透過溝通讓好的能源政策可以落實"},{"start":668.638,"end":689.325,"text":"不要好像現在講到台灣很可惜就是有一部分是事實有一部分是宣傳炒作抹黑造成好像大家對綠能都怕怕的這個還蠻可惜的好 謝謝署長 謝謝主席好 謝謝顏委員 謝謝副署長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1228,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（12時49分）謝謝主席。主席，我請一下經濟部能源署代理署長李署長。"],["李代理署長君禮：委員好。"],["楊委員曜：署長好。署長我先問一個問題，你在能源署待多久了？"],["李代理署長君禮：30年了。"],["楊委員曜：30年？"],["李代理署長君禮：嗯。"],["楊委員曜：我想要先請問你一下，就是你在推動能源的過程，因為能源轉型、推動綠能，這個是全球……"],["李代理署長君禮：全球的一個趨勢。"],["楊委員曜：幾乎共識，就是一致性的方向。"],["李代理署長君禮：是。"],["楊委員曜：為什麼在臺灣惹了這麼多的爭議出來？能不能就你在公職上的經驗持平一點講沒有關係。"],["李代理署長君禮：是，當然因為……"],["楊委員曜：因為這個政策方向一定是對的，對不對？"],["李代理署長君禮：是。"],["楊委員曜：假如是有問題的，不只臺灣，是全球都一致在推動，你講一下，不用太有壓力。"],["李代理署長君禮：好，我覺得這個是全球的趨勢，而且包括國內反對說有什麼不好的人，也從來不會說他是反對綠能，通常他是認為這個綠能的位置不對、不適當，我想這跟臺灣的人口稠密是有關係的，在國外常常可以在一些比較空曠的地方，附近居民比較少，這樣的問題會比較少。臺灣因為人口稠密，所以我們在審核的時候，像太陽光電在推動的時候，我們就要求它一定要以農業為主，光電為輔，用共生方式不影響原來土地的利用，我們會特別朝這一方面。","另外一方面，在臺灣的話，我們特別推動屋頂型，屋頂型在臺灣特別多，因為屋頂型對環境生態影響相對是小的，在國外比較少屋頂型，大部分都是大片土地做地面型，相對在臺灣，地面型目前發展的比屋頂型要慢，這是我們臺灣的特別狀況。"],["楊委員曜：地面型的規模經濟比較符合經濟效用，對不對？屋頂型……"],["李代理署長君禮：對，如果案場大，會有經濟規模。"],["楊委員曜：對。剛剛講到人口稠密，我覺得可能影響比較大的不是太陽能光板，反而可能是風力發電，是不是？"],["李代理署長君禮：是，目前我們的風力發電主要是做離岸，剛才講人口稠密，陸域的慢慢漸趨於飽和了，我們沒有特別再去獎勵或是推動，現在希望……"],["楊委員曜：而且反對的聲音也大啦，這個還滿可惜的，所以署長意見就是覺得因為人口稠密，造成我們在推動上、先天上比較有一定的困難。"],["李代理署長君禮：就是說跟居民的溝通很重要，所以我們現在修改，過去是要施工前才要開說明會，現在是在核准之前就要先開公開說明會，讓附近的居民能夠了解；核准以後要再開公開說明會，讓附近的民眾知道核准的狀況。"],["楊委員曜：對，這個程序當然是一定要，我是覺得比較可惜，就是一個能源轉型可以減少空污，減少很多環境破壞的方向，在臺灣好像一直有爭議出來，你也剛好在這邊服務30年，所以就請教你一下。","我問幾個問題，署長，審計部在112年度審計報告中指出，政府為了要落實經濟循環利用，向太陽光電的業者收取模組的回收費用，這個數據是在112年審計報告裡面的，報告指出經濟部能源署估計110年到112年大概還有沒繳納的金額接近4億，主要原因審計報告也有指出是行政疏失，你們現在這4億元催繳的情況怎麼樣？"],["李代理署長君禮：我們已經持續催繳，如果它沒有繳的話，現在修正法令了，我們就會停止它的售電，不讓它賣電了；另外一方面，我們對機制做了檢討，事實上前幾位委員剛才也一直問到目前要分10年來繳交，我們現在也已經預告修改這個制度了，它必須要在商轉的第1年就要把所有的錢都繳齊。"],["楊委員曜：我知道，我是說之前的。署長，你剛才說假如它沒有繳納，你們就要停止它售電。"],["李代理署長君禮：是。"],["楊委員曜：我覺得這個行政手段有一點問題，你們沒有辦法對公司追款嗎？"],["李代理署長君禮：有。"],["楊委員曜：因為我們最主要設置就是要綠能發電，要讓它售電……"],["李代理署長君禮：是。"],["楊委員曜：你應該讓它售電，然後從售電所得拿到錢，現在假如你們手段是停止售電，我覺得是有問題的。"],["李代理署長君禮：跟委員報告兩個部分，一個就是剛才問到我們現在收取的情形，剛才講到112年的情形，我們催收了之後，目前大概92%已經繳交了，但是還有8%……"],["楊委員曜：還有6,000萬左右。"],["李代理署長君禮：對，還有8%的金額沒有繳交，我們會繼續催收。另外如果還沒有催收的話，我們給它的期限是到今年的8月12日，它如果還沒有繳，就會移送行政執行。另外，這種制度的調整我們現在正在預告……"],["楊委員曜：不是，我剛才講的是你們的行政手段、行政措施裡面，假如是停止售電，我覺得是多方不利，你懂我的意思嗎？"],["李代理署長君禮：我了解，其實我們原來最早的想法，因為它售電，台電要付它電費嘛……"],["楊委員曜：對。"],["李代理署長君禮：就直接從台電付它的電費裡面扣掉了。"],["楊委員曜：對。"],["李代理署長君禮：但是後來法律說我們不能這樣做，除非有法律的規定，要不然那是它要收的錢，政府不能扣，所以我們現在的方法，就是停止台電跟它購電，這樣我們就不用追繳，那它……"],["楊委員曜：可是這個就比較荒謬，因為它是回收機組的錢，，你去停止它售電，我們本來設置太陽能光板就是要發電，它停止售電，它就沒有發電了，我覺得看能不能跟還沒有繳的業者去做協調……"],["李代理署長君禮：我們先跟它催收……"],["楊委員曜：或者是做一個三方的和解契約，懂我意思嗎？"],["李代理署長君禮：了解。"],["楊委員曜：我覺得這個在法律上是可以做處理的，停止售電本席覺得是比較不好的。"],["李代理署長君禮：我們可以再檢討，因為我們當時是覺得停止售電對它來講是很重大的，所以它就會繳錢出來。"],["楊委員曜：對它來講有壓力啦！可是就是怪啦！"],["李代理署長君禮：好，我們會再來檢討。"],["楊委員曜：所以你們回去跟法制人員討論看看有沒有辦法就是讓它售電，然後三方達成一個和解契約，由台電來支付給國庫，懂我意思嗎？"],["李代理署長君禮：了解，就從台電那邊把它扣下來。"],["楊委員曜：因為我覺得我們在發展綠能的過程中已經有那麼多爭議了、有那麼多困難了，畢竟它已經設置了，反而要去禁止它售電，這個我覺得不行啦！"],["李代理署長君禮：我們會再來檢討。"],["楊委員曜：好不好？"],["李代理署長君禮：好。"],["楊委員曜：再來，臺南有一個遭廢止容許使用的農電共生案場，我就直接問，假如案場廢止了以後，太陽能光板沒有移除，而案場的部分是由經濟部來負責；太陽能光板的處理是在環境部，對不對？針對案場的復原，你們現在有沒有建立一定的規範？"],["李代理署長君禮：案場的復原就要看它原來的土地使用分區能不能做，如果當時的使用分區是特別容許太陽光電，但現在沒有做太陽光電，它就要恢復原狀了。"],["楊委員曜：它就要恢復原狀？"],["李代理署長君禮：是。"],["楊委員曜：假如沒有恢復原狀，你們有沒有一定的處罰？"],["李代理署長君禮：它就是違反了土地分區使用管制規定，所以就會用土地分區使用管制規定的土地法來處罰它。"],["楊委員曜：就是用土地分區管制的相關法律來做處理，所以關於案場的復原，你們就不用另外建立復原的規範？"],["李代理署長君禮：我們就是依照現在的法律規定，它的土地使用分區可以使用的狀況來做處理。"],["楊委員曜：好，我最後還是講一下，就是全球都在推動能源轉型，綠能絕對是首要的選擇，希望好的政策我們可以透過溝通，不管是跟民眾、跟在野黨，能夠透過溝通，讓好的能源政策可以落實，不要好像現在講到臺灣，很可惜就是有一部分是事實，有一部分是宣傳炒作、抹黑，造成大家好像對綠能都怕怕的，這個還滿可惜的，謝謝署長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員，謝謝代理署長。","接續請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":238,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-20","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","涂權吉","陳菁徽","黃秀芳","林淑芬","王正旭","黃國昌","楊曜","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳冠廷","陳瑩","盧縣一","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2025-07-16"],"gazette_id":"1146701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部部長、海洋委員會、農業部、內政部、國防部、金融監督管理委員會針\n對「光電設施對環境影響情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146701_00003"}}}