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00:00:44,284\n我今天才邀請了三個日本的朋友一個是來到台灣設立格拉斯利飯店的總經理歐里桑另外一個是這個安斯巴的那個總裁他們都到台灣來投資然後他們對台灣的這些漁產基本上非常的喜歡也重視然後把他帶到台灣釣就口湖那一場我想這我要講副長應該很清楚\n\n3\n00:00:46,288 --> 00:01:12,534\n這個老闆很驕傲跟他講說其實有很多的台灣的養殖過程裡面其實是日本的技術但是我們到真正養殖的地方那個餘溫的上面有這個太陽光電板這是老闆直接主動講出來還有有設這個太陽光電板台灣的育成率更穩定更安全那我就必須要這麼講這是餘領\n\n4\n00:01:14,827 --> 00:01:24,844\n他本身也跟很多漁民來棄養然後也有漁電工生、電魚工生當大家一直在污衊這種綠能燙光電的過程裡面\n\n5\n00:01:27,014 --> 00:01:41,189\n我真的是要特別拜託環境部部長,還有我們經濟部林次長,還有漁業署,甚至包括農政單位,應該第一時間要站出來,甚至連台積電都要邀來,台積電買了多少綠電,夠嗎?夠嗎?所以當國家政策往這方向在走,\n\n6\n00:01:48,436 --> 00:02:06,873\n然後相關的漁民有受益的情況之下那怎麼一個政策的導引然後實際上的實施狀況大家有這樣的感受是正向的時候怎麼好像我們都很靦腆的不敢去對外去講清楚\n\n7\n00:02:07,614 --> 00:02:36,406\n我覺得這不對啦我希望這個部分我是不是特決在這邊做一個具體的這樣一個要求啦好不好好次長跟副長先請回副長就留下了那請那署長上來啦臨時請回臨時請回我剛剛也因為聽到前面幾位委員的這樣一個吹詢裡面很清楚他能光電到底會不會造成這一個損害之後會不會造成這一個\n\n8\n00:02:38,537 --> 00:03:00,985\n會不會有害的物質去沉澱到大海去沉澱到什麼地方去然後這是大家外界的疑慮那我聽部長還有聽次長的講話有做過相關的一些這樣的一個抽檢嘛然後經過幾天之後來做一個處理看那個水質基本上都還是在標準內嘛都標準內但是我應該這麼講就是說當台灣\n\n9\n00:03:03,666 --> 00:03:27,589\n從去年來了三個颱風那現在今年度來了第一個颱風聽說等一下這幾天又會有第二個颱風到底會來幾個颱風在極端氣候不穩定的這樣的一個氣候的一個狀態散之下我們現在看到的當然有一些都符合標準的數據但是當這樣的經常性的情況一直在發生的時候會不會\n\n10\n00:03:28,816 --> 00:03:40,082\n會不會卻有意外還是沒有不可抗力的因素的情況之下導致有問題的產生這個大家必須要講清楚\n\n11\n00:03:41,975 --> 00:03:59,854\n報告委其實基本上太陽光電板它本身是無害的但是它如果變成廢棄物的時候就變成失業廢棄物那失業廢棄物它絕對不能堆在旁邊然後它一定要把它清除掉用失業廢棄物那它其實可以循環去化的那從它本身來說的話是無害的\n\n12\n00:03:59,974 --> 00:04:23,684\n但是它其實你可以想說任何一個廢棄物丟到一個環境裡面反走過必留下痕跡所以我們一定要把它清除一定會有一點些微的影響但是目前來看的話包含了這個經濟部有做我們有做其實目前對環境立即的影響是比較低的但是如果長期來看的話我們還是不希望有這樣的東西跟我們的大自然裡面廢棄的在那個地方存在的\n\n13\n00:04:24,144 --> 00:04:50,635\n好一定會有影響嘛對不對蠍尾的影響它還是叫做影響嘛對不對但累積到一定程度的情況之下那就不是蠍尾的影響了可能各地可能很多地方處理不善就好比說去化處理不當的情況之下可能那個影響就不叫做蠍尾的影響囉會不會這樣發生嘛對不對我們先要預估這種情境會不會產生嘛我在今年的4月28號的時候在追當時106年運線的一個倉庫嘛被發現\n\n14\n00:04:53,216 --> 00:05:19,279\n儲存將近4000桶50加侖的碳能供電板的這是切消役嘛那時候署長部長都有打呼我那當然打呼的不是很完整後來有在透過公文在跟我做打呼應該也跟委員會都有報告過這個產業從103年開始違法對峙這個廢役造成惡臭甚至於捅破還有切消役洩漏污染我不只多次追蹤還希望環保署來正視這個問題\n\n15\n00:05:20,820 --> 00:05:43,228\n所以政府逐漸的開始完備整個太陽能板的製作使用以及回收的規範例如你們有訂定太陽能光電發電設備模組回收會用收支保管機運用作為要點對不對來規定每張太陽能板出產後10年內分10年內要繳納回收費沒有錯嗎這個是對岸產\n\n16\n00:05:47,910 --> 00:05:51,833\n這個是對案場對一般家戶那目前在我們如果是家戶呢他的屋頂有時候他是由我們的這個案場他去裝設那這樣的話呢他的清除處理呢還是還是由這個案場要去負責\n\n17\n00:06:10,049 --> 00:06:23,656\n那你只是回答我一小部分嘛就是暗藏去鑽設的只裝在家戶所以他會自己處理嘛因為他有繳了十年這個處理的費用嘛對不對好如果不是暗藏呢\n\n18\n00:06:24,732 --> 00:06:50,221\n那有一些他不是在案場少數可能是家戶你講少數你要負責任講包委員他只要裝的在申請核准的時候呢他每K瓦就要繳一千元不管他是裝在哪裡只要跟台電裝了這個系統跟台電並聯發電了那他就要受這個規範好署長你既然上來那你就講清楚一點那一般的案場就是說到時候要回收的時候因為有繳這些回收我會用\n\n19\n00:06:50,881 --> 00:07:07,590\n會跟特定的回收業者來做這樣的一個回收程序嘛對不對那目前屋頂的小暗場其實也不是住家設的都是那個廠商他去包這個屋頂來設的當然是廠商啊當然不可能是自己去設碳纖維電板這個我們很清楚嘛好但是一般家戶設的這個暗場是廠家去設的碳纖維電板萬一就像颱風這個狀況發生了然後損害了那誰來處理就是那個設置的廠商\n\n20\n00:07:20,197 --> 00:07:48,916\n是不是廠商主動來請回收廠商去處理我是這個家戶使用太陽能關電板我就直接聯絡這個廠商那這個廠商就找回收業者來做處理是這樣嗎?是的,因為那個太陽能板就是那個廠商的你講錯了喔你講錯了,我現在在講很清楚要跟你討論前端的事情我們就不再贅述現在講後端的處置如果家戶的太陽能關電板可以這麼處理我們那署長回答我都不是這樣怎麼跟你南沿北側\n\n21\n00:07:51,667 --> 00:08:06,047\n我們跟能源署的那個做法還有是一樣的你上次講的跟這次講的原本就不太有一樣怎麼會有一樣部長聽了都在笑了\n\n22\n00:08:08,257 --> 00:08:28,992\n那時候你跟我們講說清潔隊可以去收就是說可能有一些民眾他自己會上網買自己就裝一個自己在用那我們這次其實風災也有看到的確有一兩片目前我們統計到就一兩片是民眾自己拿出來說給清潔隊用清潔隊來收那因為量很少所以他給清潔隊之後那我們就會來處理\n\n23\n00:08:30,336 --> 00:08:57,683\n那我們是跟經濟隊員說如果你有收到那我們後端的處理管道是沒有問題的你就放在你的暫存廠裡面後端的處理費用會來支付如果你有收到那現在是因為風災那有一兩片有大概是三片是環保局這邊有收到的李代署長你聽清楚嘛你聽清楚嘛對不對到底是誰收講清楚\n\n24\n00:08:59,427 --> 00:09:14,879\n我現在在講一個是大案場、中案場、小案場一個是家戶型的攤子、光碟板誰裝的已經不是重點了對不對?部長講說自己去買的一兩片你們這裡有很多去看到的一兩片我都沒看到大家在求責要在美國時間去看到這兩片自己找去買沒關係\n\n25\n00:09:17,611 --> 00:09:34,860\n是怎麼處理是要一次規定嘛你的要點要全部通通要適用才對嘛但是現在講法李署長你的講法跟我們賴署長講法就是不一樣就是不一樣啊其實是一樣就是不一樣了怎麼會一樣處理後端我們再處理前端\n\n26\n00:09:35,380 --> 00:09:54,211\n也就是說他在設置的時候他都是要繳每KY一千元的後製的處理費這個責任是在這個裝置的廠商也就是他的所有錢源剛才講後端是說他如果被摧壞了那那個人那個民眾如果就把他拿去這個回收了\n\n27\n00:09:55,792 --> 00:10:21,326\n就是他拿去回收那這時候我們的回收隊會回收但是回收回去他們會集中的去把它處理但是這個責任並沒有說廠商就沒有責任或是不回收他只是在執行的實務有的時候就在研究處訂啊就下來啊就拿去等了啊這時候我們環保機關不會說我不收我不收他會把它收回去再另外做處理\n\n28\n00:10:22,046 --> 00:10:26,089\n但是那一個責任其實是那一個所有權人、廠商的責任所以是頭到尾啦你剛才你自己覺得你講話有跟我衝突嗎?我最少聽到這樣\n\n29\n00:10:37,195 --> 00:10:45,941\n他在廠商來修,但是應該是廠商的責任,那是他的東西嘛你剛才說他自己提供回收嘛,不然你還提供環保局來修嘛到底是要自己提供回收,還是環保局來回收嘛還是處理的回收,是他正式的這間公司要派人來回收嘛\n\n30\n00:11:04,356 --> 00:11:05,437\n我們一般來講都是屬於藥油業者他為的收入一般是這樣子\n\n31\n00:11:28,238 --> 00:11:36,932\n那因為這次是風災所以我們特地有跟這個環保局來通知緊急情況請地方公所清潔隊環保局去處理這個不是常態我現在跟你講的是一個常態的狀況嘛你們到底怎麼處理啊\n\n32\n00:11:44,892 --> 00:11:58,402\n唐太是要有業者因為當時那一千塊也是業者繳所以他要去回收去做處理那是業者的責任但是這次因為風災有的他住在那裡於是他就把他拿去丟掉了這個時候是後面的環保機關也會把他拿去回收為什麼這個屋主因為颱風把他的碳冷關電板摧弱了\n\n33\n00:12:10,453 --> 00:12:24,819\n這個屋主怎麼會有那個觀念跟作為就把他的貪婪觀念板拿去丟掉他怎麼不會通知跟他裝飾貪婪板的業者跟他講說我這裡落地讓人家落沙地純不中說的你要派人來給我回收正常他這樣子也可以啦齁\n\n34\n00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:51,813\n整個是他拿去丟掉也可以然後他通知裝設他的業者來回收也可以你怎麼會有兩個也可以他的責任是在這個安裝廠商的身上要拿去丟但是如果這一個住戶他直接就壞了他把他拿去丟後面是說他也會收來處理但是那個一千元每K瓦的一千元的費用是這個廠商他已經繳進去了現在感覺是說算了那一塊不要丟掉啦\n\n35\n00:12:54,995 --> 00:13:21,092\n照你來講啦那個住戶沒有去做廠商就要做這件事喔甘要斷掉嘛你到底是斷掉還是要拿去回收就回收嘛你這說得清楚了斷掉是當作廢棄物的啊廢棄物就當然公所情結對方不叫要給他修啊是是那叫做斷掉啊正常情況下是他要拿去修啊啊廢修就沒工啊啊你現在到底你要把全國百姓公家戶的太陽能光電板繞一塊拍兩塊拍五塊\n\n36\n00:13:22,393 --> 00:13:43,909\n到底是處處可以自己去探調還是要通緝創新的業者來做回收的動作你自己說清楚啊你這樣說叫做也可以我就聽不到就對了我相信在座所有的官員都是我的同仁看聽得到嗎責任在那個廠商是廠商要去負責回收\n\n37\n00:13:44,810 --> 00:13:53,382\n很清楚喔那為什麼被裝設家戶的這個屋主他可以拿去丟掉為什麼賴署長還跟我講他會去溝通地方環保局跟清潔隊還是要去債\n\n38\n00:14:01,279 --> 00:14:22,126\n那個委員可能是因為這個這個制度從108年開始就過了十幾年前以前還有那個自己去買的都有啊現在有的還有啊都沒有在我們的列管裡面部長你不能一直跟我講說自己去買啦你自己去買是看到一兩塊而已你現在跟我講從108年到現在自己去買有多少比例那我們現在來來來來來來農業署你現在給我個數據來\n\n39\n00:14:25,587 --> 00:14:47,510\n所有的有暗藏的到底目前在台灣裝修的面積數量是多少家戶的又是多少來部長自己講的一直講自己去買的自己去買的比例又佔多少投機數字馬上公開啊然後你從暗藏怎麼處理家戶你怎麼處理你自己去買又怎麼處理你跟全國民眾講清楚啊\n\n40\n00:14:48,351 --> 00:15:10,466\n是那個我們現在總共全國的太陽光電的安裝量是14.7GW那除了地面型以外剛才講的其實是屋頂型的屋頂型大概有8.多GW的裝置將近9的裝置容量那當然這個是Total的容量那剛才部長講的是我們有一些是很早期因為太陽光電大概已經推動超過十幾年\n\n41\n00:15:11,947 --> 00:15:39,540\n那些可能在早期的並沒有做特別的登記管理或是要繳交回收費用會有那樣的那我們這個回收制度訂了以後就所有新設的都有這個裝置的廠商他要繳交相關的費用那他也要負起回收的責任一個政策已經執行十多年了那應該統一的一個規範回收的作業要點基本上不管你是什麼廠\n\n42\n00:15:40,902 --> 00:15:49,650\n不管你大小廠啦不管你自己選購的啦不管你自己裝設的啦我想都要有一致處理的標準啦那如果是因地制宜\n\n43\n00:15:50,749 --> 00:16:13,638\n還是說什麼樣的一個情況,那或許就另外有所規範嘛對不對,有所處置的方式嘛那我現在聽你講,坦白講已經超過時間了我聽你講到目前為止就是沒有一致性啊,這不對啊但台灣在推動綠能、推動光電的過程裡面連這一個整個回收都還沒有辦法一致性的處理你對國人是沒有辦法交代的啦\n\n44\n00:16:14,728 --> 00:16:25,256\n你這個會被挑戰啦台灣又清場了這麼多颱風啦掉下來之後這是秋霜要去恢修的這是他自己買的我不相信你會像寶釘這樣搬啊你為什麼要搬怎麼可以這樣搬啊那自己買的不是很多你15年以前就對了嘛差不多都要脫太掉了嘛都要換要更新了嘛你站在光天的中央機關裡面你對這些15億當前的到現在還沒換到現在還沒更新的你要怎麼處理嘛\n\n45\n00:16:45,165 --> 00:16:48,668\n你要去調查嗎?你要去盤查嗎?你要去把制度定好嗎?我們這邊來檢討啦因為我們現在未來那個修廢清法這個部分的這個管理會更統一啦這個我們來我們雄安署跟能源署來協調好一個月內可以吧把統一標準訂定出來部長我要求一個月還算給你們很寬裕的時間\n\n46\n00:17:13,223 --> 00:17:25,030\n一下又要另外一個颱風來像去年連續三個你怎麼去因應你後面昨天昨天的報導部長你自己講的加以台南因這次颱風損害的太陽光電板約兩千多噸\n\n47\n00:17:26,409 --> 00:17:47,382\n兩千多噸,你說會在一個月內處理完成,對不對?一個多月啦,去化啦這個把被棄物壞掉的收集,然後送到去化回收的這個廠一個廠要一個半月左右你如果要說一個多月,是一個月一天還是一個月三十?一個半月啦,要一個半月啦,目前初估啦\n\n48\n00:17:48,803 --> 00:18:16,261\n我們不要再發生過去像灰輪胎的事件了那時候你還沒有來當部長你應該知道嘛也灰灰洋洋的對不對那到時候也回收啊也都可以處理啊後來發生什麼事情大家都很清楚還有悶燒的還有大火整個燒到面目全灰的然後回收場沒辦法收然後進到這個汽車維修場然後最後堆置在田間堆置在大馬路邊台灣好像是灰輪胎國家\n\n49\n00:18:17,708 --> 00:18:33,700\n你不要到時候台灣變成一個會太陽能光電板的國家那能源署跟環境部來講就真的是會會被民眾很大的這樣一個挑戰因為現在就兩千多噸了你如果再來一次又要多給幾噸\n\n50\n00:18:35,259 --> 00:19:02,441\n真的都可以處理完嗎然後你們自己講說你們自己講說預估啦齁203你們環境部是估2032年他能光電板自然老舊鈦換的匯氣量可能會達到一年一萬噸以上是這你們抓出來的東西嗎五萬噸啦要五萬噸喔五萬噸以上嗎對對對啊我們現在量的人大概一個月大概四千多噸啦那未來應該會再提升好所以部長要把握\n\n51\n00:19:03,753 --> 00:19:32,391\n目前照這個現在的因為還有很多的業者想做這塊是在申請那因為這個太陽光電板我們希望可以全循環我們我們發生過會這個會計輪胎企劃的問題很嚴重的影響到台灣很多地方的環境是我們過去也處理過農業會農氣的問題一下子廠家廠家可以做一下廠家做的不符合規定一下子一下子一下子是多久已經報半年一年完全沒辦法收\n\n52\n00:19:33,857 --> 00:19:57,068\n你不要到時候台灣觀念板的去化跟回收又出現這些問題委員這個我上禮拜六有去特別去看這些廠商啦所以我們會持續的在了解然後也在督促他們啦好謝謝這裡就是一個約內啦好不好那個就抱歉啦好不好請等我林次林次到你後來不要亂走經濟部林次長\n\n53\n00:19:59,623 --> 00:20:14,997\n賴市長,賴市長,賴市長,對不起喔,我把想到賴署長,我一直叫你來,叫你來,嘿嘿,我都改了,不好意思,好,我也好,我也好,這,這,這出錯了啦,我講的怎麼變這樣,嘿,看到你才去緊張喔,對啊,他能推動喔,這個,這個過程裡面,我想,很多,很多,姿勢節節的事情,剛剛你也聽到,整個太陽能關電板的回收,如果這個樣子的問題,\n\n54\n00:20:27,188 --> 00:20:55,444\n真的不趕快統一整合一套的方式出來是真的會被挑戰這是其一還有先到後續處理去化整個的這個量能的穩定性這個要請賴次一定要一定要非常非常的進入到這樣的一個實質的一個整個整個整個掌控那第二件事情我覺得有點好奇我們一直在推動太陽能那為什麼太陽能熱水器\n\n55\n00:20:56,448 --> 00:21:23,391\n我們現在不做補助了你知道這個事情嗎太陽能熱水器會被颱風吹走太陽能熱水器早期在開發的時候它是有補助的那後來停止補助是因為它的技術已經成熟而且它自己就有效益所以政府就沒有再補助了那我們很多的電氣冰箱\n\n56\n00:21:24,272 --> 00:21:42,130\n它都不成熟所以我們持續經濟部一直在補助我們的冰箱會持續跳電因為不成熟我們的冷氣會持續斷電因為不成熟所以政府就必須要持續補助然後太陽能這個熱水器我們在推太陽能然後這個太陽能熱水器已經成熟了所以他們就去致死其利你的邏輯\n\n57\n00:21:44,997 --> 00:22:07,395\n你今天你待會說你今天講話一些邏輯我也被你有點謝謝謝謝委員指導我們現在希望說屋頂型的部分啊來加速來推動剛剛委員的這個建議我們納入整體來做評估可以嗎不是因為我們一直要朝向這個綠能的占比嘛對不對這個不是其一嗎那你說因為它成熟所以就取消了\n\n58\n00:22:08,404 --> 00:22:16,929\n然後你其他的電器什麼冷氣都還是連續好幾年那個你敢講那些不成熟嗎你講不出來嘛那各大品牌嘛對不對\n\n59\n00:22:18,143 --> 00:22:45,722\n所以委員我會跟能源署一起來檢討包括怎麼樣去有序的推動綠能之外對屋頂型的部分能不能有一些經濟的作為我只是在想啦是不是可以盡快讓這樣的那個你們要達到的目標可以達成嘛那為什麼你們要放棄這一塊這個是不是有相關的統計數據可以讓我們做參考嘛然後也希望兩個星期內是不是可以研究相關的一些因應的辦法作為嘛好不好好謝謝最後一件事情\n\n60\n00:22:48,084 --> 00:23:12,504\n跟這次丹娜斯強豪雨造成我知道我們雲家人應該整條澳東應該是三千幾三千四百五十五根三千幾還要更多當時統計是兩千多現在是三千多了然後累積停電一百萬戶嘛對不對動員全國各區超過九成搶修人力超過兩千人集中到此次的停電災區進行這個復電搶修嘛\n\n61\n00:23:16,121 --> 00:23:29,214\n各位應該知道一天沒有電還好兩天沒有電就不是很好第三天都還沒有電冰箱裡面的東西全部都倒出來有時候你連馬桶都沒辦法上\n\n62\n00:23:30,407 --> 00:23:48,972\n那個是那個煎熬,然後這種天氣,露乎,露乎,涼涼的還會滴過,那個天氣我們熱到你真的是整個心肝灰燼啦,啊,裡面你手腳過程裡面,所以韌性的這樣的一個電力的配置,真的刻不容緩啦。\n\n63\n00:23:50,012 --> 00:24:18,846\n真的刻不容緩尤其像雲嘉嵐原來地區甚至於我們雲林的山線就像古耕鄉那些台北去搶救他不是只有去爬到電線桿他還要去搬石頭因為都有落石山路絕對都有落石的然後你知道我們那邊有個村長草原村長上一次上一次颱風他幫台電能源排除那些滑落的石頭三天三夜都沒睡\n\n64\n00:24:20,828 --> 00:24:24,531\n他剛才跟我說,你還沒起來給我看,不可能看不見你啊。沒有,沒有在唱啊,沒有在唱電啊,大陣子的車甘奔起來啊,不管是大陣子的動力還是外包起來啊,就站在一旁就還在那裡啊,也沒有機械啊。你還叫人家去補點酒頭,補到來就在那裡,腳都手軟了,還有開到北京的家庭,北京的家庭你看啊,那都不可能啦。\n\n65\n00:24:46,897 --> 00:25:10,572\n所以電線的地下化我們也不是現在才講也是講很久很久了啦齁那我真的希望那次今天來就把這個事情列為首要啦齁這其一啦那其二不管是台電的同仁還是外包的這些工作的這些辛苦的人員是不是給他們有一定的這樣的一個鼓勵啦\n\n66\n00:25:14,103 --> 00:25:25,179\n這次當然是颱風之後部長特別調整他自己的行程然後去跟台電工會去慰問在當下有跟工會討論到這個問題\n\n67\n00:25:27,302 --> 00:25:50,562\n現今我們對於台電搶修的人員除了他執勤中搶修的作業危險的家籍還有包括什麼物產費這些都有當然我們希望說短期裡面我們所有弟兄希望剩下的1122戶趕快復電之外這是我們唯一的信念但是以經濟部跟台電公司的立場\n\n68\n00:25:51,423 --> 00:26:17,293\n而言的話我們會對於我們所有的國營事業包括特別是台電公司現在在鋪在外面搶修的這個員工如何照委員的建議給他更優渥的這個部分我們單大師的專案獎金可以對台電的同仁鼓勵對外包的工作人員鼓勵嗎可以嗎我們來研究好不好拜託拜託儘快好不好好可以謝謝喔市長好謝謝來謝謝趙委好謝謝劉建國趙委\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7907\t17603\t謝主席 請部長 請社長 請約束我接續剛才陳副委員的這個垂詢基本上不管是電力共生與電力共生 我昨天\n18933\t44284\t我今天才邀請了三個日本的朋友一個是來到台灣設立格拉斯利飯店的總經理歐里桑另外一個是這個安斯巴的那個總裁他們都到台灣來投資然後他們對台灣的這些漁產基本上非常的喜歡也重視然後把他帶到台灣釣就口湖那一場我想這我要講副長應該很清楚\n46288\t72534\t這個老闆很驕傲跟他講說其實有很多的台灣的養殖過程裡面其實是日本的技術但是我們到真正養殖的地方那個餘溫的上面有這個太陽光電板這是老闆直接主動講出來還有有設這個太陽光電板台灣的育成率更穩定更安全那我就必須要這麼講這是餘領\n74827\t84844\t他本身也跟很多漁民來棄養然後也有漁電工生、電魚工生當大家一直在污衊這種綠能燙光電的過程裡面\n87014\t101189\t我真的是要特別拜託環境部部長,還有我們經濟部林次長,還有漁業署,甚至包括農政單位,應該第一時間要站出來,甚至連台積電都要邀來,台積電買了多少綠電,夠嗎?夠嗎?所以當國家政策往這方向在走,\n108436\t126873\t然後相關的漁民有受益的情況之下那怎麼一個政策的導引然後實際上的實施狀況大家有這樣的感受是正向的時候怎麼好像我們都很靦腆的不敢去對外去講清楚\n127614\t156406\t我覺得這不對啦我希望這個部分我是不是特決在這邊做一個具體的這樣一個要求啦好不好好 次長跟副長先請回副長就留下了那請那署長上來啦臨時請回 臨時請回我剛剛也因為聽到前面幾位委員的這樣一個吹詢裡面很清楚他能光電到底會不會造成這一個損害之後會不會造成這一個\n158537\t180985\t會不會有害的物質去沉澱到大海去沉澱到什麼地方去然後這是大家外界的疑慮那我聽部長還有聽次長的講話有做過相關的一些這樣的一個抽檢嘛然後經過幾天之後來做一個處理看那個水質基本上都還是在標準內嘛都標準內但是我應該這麼講就是說當台灣\n183666\t207589\t從去年來了三個颱風那現在今年度來了第一個颱風聽說等一下這幾天又會有第二個颱風到底會來幾個颱風在極端氣候不穩定的這樣的一個氣候的一個狀態散之下我們現在看到的當然有一些都符合標準的數據但是當這樣的經常性的情況一直在發生的時候會不會\n208816\t220082\t會不會卻有意外還是沒有不可抗力的因素的情況之下導致有問題的產生這個大家必須要講清楚\n221975\t239854\t報告委其實基本上太陽光電板它本身是無害的但是它如果變成廢棄物的時候就變成失業廢棄物那失業廢棄物它絕對不能堆在旁邊然後它一定要把它清除掉用失業廢棄物那它其實可以循環去化的那從它本身來說的話是無害的\n239974\t263684\t但是它其實你可以想說任何一個廢棄物丟到一個環境裡面反走過必留下痕跡所以我們一定要把它清除一定會有一點些微的影響但是目前來看的話包含了這個經濟部有做我們有做其實目前對環境立即的影響是比較低的但是如果長期來看的話我們還是不希望有這樣的東西跟我們的大自然裡面廢棄的在那個地方存在的\n264144\t290635\t好 一定會有影響嘛 對不對 蠍尾的影響它還是叫做影響嘛 對不對但累積到一定程度的情況之下那就不是蠍尾的影響了可能各地可能很多地方處理不善就好比說去化處理不當的情況之下可能那個影響就不叫做蠍尾的影響囉會不會這樣發生嘛 對不對我們先要預估這種情境會不會產生嘛我在今年的4月28號的時候在追當時106年運線的一個倉庫嘛 被發現\n293216\t319279\t儲存將近4000桶50加侖的碳能供電板的這是切消役嘛那時候署長部長都有打呼我那當然打呼的不是很完整後來有在透過公文在跟我做打呼應該也跟委員會都有報告過這個產業從103年開始違法對峙這個廢役造成惡臭甚至於捅破還有切消役洩漏污染我不只多次追蹤還希望環保署來正視這個問題\n320820\t343228\t所以政府逐漸的開始完備整個太陽能板的製作使用以及回收的規範例如你們有訂定太陽能光電發電設備模組回收會用收支保管機運用作為要點對不對來規定每張太陽能板出產後10年內分10年內要繳納回收費沒有錯嗎這個是對岸產\n347910\t351833\t這個是對案場 對一般家戶那目前在我們如果是家戶呢 他的屋頂有時候他是由我們的這個案場他去裝設那這樣的話呢 他的清除處理呢 還是還是由這個案場要去負責\n370049\t383656\t那你只是回答我一小部分嘛就是暗藏去鑽設的 只裝在家戶所以他會自己處理嘛因為他有繳了十年這個處理的費用嘛對不對好 如果不是暗藏呢\n384732\t410221\t那有一些他不是在案場少數可能是家戶你講少數你要負責任講包委員他只要裝的在申請核准的時候呢他每K瓦就要繳一千元不管他是裝在哪裡只要跟台電裝了這個系統跟台電並聯發電了那他就要受這個規範好署長你既然上來那你就講清楚一點那一般的案場就是說到時候要回收的時候因為有繳這些回收我會用\n410881\t427590\t會跟特定的回收業者來做這樣的一個回收程序嘛對不對那目前屋頂的小暗場其實也不是住家設的都是那個廠商他去包這個屋頂來設的當然是廠商啊當然不可能是自己去設碳纖維電板這個我們很清楚嘛好但是一般家戶設的這個暗場是廠家去設的碳纖維電板萬一就像颱風這個狀況發生了然後損害了那誰來處理就是那個設置的廠商\n440197\t468916\t是不是廠商主動來請回收廠商去處理我是這個家戶使用太陽能關電板我就直接聯絡這個廠商那這個廠商就找回收業者來做處理是這樣嗎?是的,因為那個太陽能板就是那個廠商的你講錯了喔你講錯了,我現在在講很清楚要跟你討論前端的事情我們就不再贅述現在講後端的處置如果家戶的太陽能關電板可以這麼處理我們那署長回答我都不是這樣怎麼跟你南沿北側\n471667\t486047\t我們跟能源署的那個做法還有是一樣的你上次講的跟這次講的原本就不太有一樣怎麼會有一樣部長聽了都在笑了\n488257\t508992\t那時候你跟我們講說清潔隊可以去收就是說可能有一些民眾他自己會上網買自己就裝一個自己在用那我們這次其實風災也有看到的確有一兩片目前我們統計到就一兩片是民眾自己拿出來說給清潔隊用清潔隊來收那因為量很少所以他給清潔隊之後那我們就會來處理\n510336\t537683\t那我們是跟經濟隊員說 如果你有收到 那我們後端的處理管道是沒有問題的你就放在你的暫存廠裡面 後端的處理費用會來支付如果你有收到 那現在是因為風災 那有一兩片 有大概是三片是環保局這邊有收到的李代署長你聽清楚嘛你聽清楚嘛對不對 到底是誰收 講清楚\n539427\t554879\t我現在在講一個是大案場、中案場、小案場一個是家戶型的攤子、光碟板誰裝的已經不是重點了對不對?部長講說自己去買的一兩片你們這裡有很多去看到的一兩片我都沒看到大家在求責要在美國時間去看到這兩片自己找去買沒關係\n557611\t574860\t是怎麼處理是要一次規定嘛你的要點要全部通通要適用才對嘛但是現在講法李署長你的講法跟我們賴署長講法就是不一樣就是不一樣啊其實是一樣就是不一樣了怎麼會一樣處理後端我們再處理前端\n575380\t594211\t也就是說他在設置的時候他都是要繳每KY一千元的後製的處理費這個責任是在這個裝置的廠商也就是他的所有錢源剛才講後端是說他如果被摧壞了那那個人那個民眾如果就把他拿去這個回收了\n595792\t621326\t就是他拿去回收那這時候我們的回收隊會回收但是回收回去他們會集中的去把它處理但是這個責任並沒有說廠商就沒有責任或是不回收他只是在執行的實務有的時候就在研究處訂啊就下來啊就拿去等了啊這時候我們環保機關不會說我不收我不收他會把它收回去再另外做處理\n622046\t626089\t但是那一個責任其實是那一個所有權人、廠商的責任所以是頭到尾啦你剛才你自己覺得你講話有跟我衝突嗎?我最少聽到這樣\n637195\t645941\t他在廠商來修,但是應該是廠商的責任,那是他的東西嘛你剛才說他自己提供回收嘛,不然你還提供環保局來修嘛到底是要自己提供回收,還是環保局來回收嘛還是處理的回收,是他正式的這間公司要派人來回收嘛\n664356\t665437\t我們一般來講都是屬於藥油業者他為的收入 一般是這樣子\n688238\t696932\t那因為這次是風災 所以我們特地有跟這個環保局來通知緊急情況 請地方公所 清潔隊 環保局去處理這個不是常態我現在跟你講的是一個常態的狀況嘛你們到底怎麼處理啊\n704892\t718402\t唐太是要有業者因為當時那一千塊也是業者繳所以他要去回收去做處理那是業者的責任但是這次因為風災有的他住在那裡於是他就把他拿去丟掉了這個時候是後面的環保機關也會把他拿去回收為什麼這個屋主因為颱風把他的碳冷關電板摧弱了\n730453\t744819\t這個屋主怎麼會有那個觀念跟作為就把他的貪婪觀念板拿去丟掉他怎麼不會通知跟他裝飾貪婪板的業者跟他講說我這裡落地 讓人家落沙地純不中說的你要派人來給我回收正常他這樣子也可以啦齁\n746640\t771813\t整個是他拿去丟掉也可以然後他通知裝設他的業者來回收也可以你怎麼會有兩個也可以他的責任是在這個安裝廠商的身上要拿去丟但是如果這一個住戶他直接就壞了他把他拿去丟後面是說他也會收來處理但是那個一千元每K瓦的一千元的費用是這個廠商他已經繳進去了現在感覺是說算了那一塊不要丟掉啦\n774995\t801092\t照你來講啦 那個住戶沒有去做 廠商就要做這件事喔 甘要斷掉嘛你到底是斷掉 還是要拿去回收就回收嘛 你這說得清楚了 斷掉是當作廢棄物的啊 廢棄物就當然 公所情結對方不叫要給他修啊 是是那叫做斷掉啊 正常情況下是他要拿去修啊 啊 廢修就沒工啊啊你現在到底你要把全國百姓公家戶的太陽能光電板 繞一塊 拍兩塊 拍五塊\n802393\t823909\t到底是處處可以自己去探調 還是要通緝創新的業者來做回收的動作你自己說清楚啊 你這樣說叫做也可以 我就聽不到就對了我相信在座所有的官員都是我的同仁 看聽得到嗎責任在那個廠商是廠商要去負責回收\n824810\t833382\t很清楚喔那為什麼被裝設家戶的這個屋主他可以拿去丟掉為什麼賴署長還跟我講他會去溝通地方環保局跟清潔隊還是要去債\n841279\t862126\t那個委員可能是因為這個這個制度從108年開始就過了十幾年前以前還有那個自己去買的都有啊現在有的還有啊都沒有在我們的列管裡面部長你不能一直跟我講說自己去買啦你自己去買是看到一兩塊而已你現在跟我講從108年到現在自己去買有多少比例那我們現在來來來來來來農業署你現在給我個數據來\n865587\t887510\t所有的有暗藏的到底目前在台灣裝修的面積數量是多少家戶的又是多少來部長自己講的一直講自己去買的自己去買的比例又佔多少投機數字馬上公開啊然後你從暗藏怎麼處理家戶你怎麼處理你自己去買又怎麼處理你跟全國民眾講清楚啊\n888351\t910466\t是 那個我們現在總共全國的太陽光電的安裝量是14.7GW那除了地面型以外 剛才講的其實是屋頂型的屋頂型大概有8.多GW的裝置 將近9的裝置容量那當然這個是Total的容量那剛才部長講的是 我們有一些是很早期因為太陽光電大概已經推動超過十幾年\n911947\t939540\t那些可能在早期的並沒有做特別的登記管理或是要繳交回收費用會有那樣的那我們這個回收制度訂了以後就所有新設的都有這個裝置的廠商他要繳交相關的費用那他也要負起回收的責任一個政策已經執行十多年了那應該統一的一個規範回收的作業要點基本上不管你是什麼廠\n940902\t949650\t不管你大小廠啦不管你自己選購的啦不管你自己裝設的啦我想都要有一致處理的標準啦那如果是因地制宜\n950749\t973638\t還是說什麼樣的一個情況,那或許就另外有所規範嘛對不對,有所處置的方式嘛那我現在聽你講,坦白講已經超過時間了我聽你講到目前為止就是沒有一致性啊,這不對啊但台灣在推動綠能、推動光電的過程裡面連這一個整個回收都還沒有辦法一致性的處理你對國人是沒有辦法交代的啦\n974728\t985256\t你這個會被挑戰啦台灣又清場了這麼多颱風啦掉下來之後 這是秋霜要去恢修的這是他自己買的 我不相信你會像寶釘這樣搬啊你為什麼要搬 怎麼可以這樣搬啊那自己買的不是很多 你15年以前就對了嘛差不多都要脫太掉了嘛都要換 要更新了嘛你站在光天的 中央機關裡面你對這些15億當前的 到現在還沒換到現在還沒更新的 你要怎麼處理嘛\n1005165\t1008668\t你要去調查嗎?你要去盤查嗎?你要去把制度定好嗎?我們這邊來檢討啦因為我們現在未來那個修廢清法這個部分的這個管理會更統一啦這個我們來我們雄安署跟能源署來協調好一個月內可以吧把統一標準訂定出來部長我要求一個月還算給你們很寬裕的時間\n1033223\t1045030\t一下又要另外一個颱風來像去年連續三個你怎麼去因應你後面昨天昨天的報導部長你自己講的加以台南因這次颱風損害的太陽光電板約兩千多噸\n1046409\t1067382\t兩千多噸,你說會在一個月內處理完成,對不對?一個多月啦,去化啦這個把被棄物壞掉的收集,然後送到去化回收的這個廠一個廠要一個半月左右你如果要說一個多月,是一個月一天還是一個月三十?一個半月啦,要一個半月啦,目前初估啦\n1068803\t1096261\t我們不要再發生過去像灰輪胎的事件了那時候你還沒有來當部長你應該知道嘛也灰灰洋洋的對不對那到時候也回收啊也都可以處理啊後來發生什麼事情大家都很清楚還有悶燒的還有大火整個燒到面目全灰的然後回收場沒辦法收然後進到這個汽車維修場然後最後堆置在田間堆置在大馬路邊台灣好像是灰輪胎國家\n1097708\t1113700\t你不要到時候台灣變成一個會太陽能光電板的國家那能源署跟環境部來講就真的是會會被民眾很大的這樣一個挑戰因為現在就兩千多噸了你如果再來一次又要多給幾噸\n1115259\t1142441\t真的都可以處理完嗎然後你們自己講說你們自己講說預估啦齁203你們環境部是估2032年他能光電板自然老舊鈦換的匯氣量可能會達到一年一萬噸以上是這你們抓出來的東西嗎五萬噸啦要五萬噸喔五萬噸以上嗎對對對啊我們現在量的人大概一個月大概四千多噸啦那未來應該會再提升好所以部長要把握\n1143753\t1172391\t目前照這個現在的因為還有很多的業者想做這塊是在申請那因為這個太陽光電板我們希望可以全循環我們我們發生過會這個會計輪胎企劃的問題很嚴重的影響到台灣很多地方的環境是我們過去也處理過農業會農氣的問題一下子廠家廠家可以做一下廠家做的不符合規定一下子一下子一下子是多久已經報半年一年完全沒辦法收\n1173857\t1197068\t你不要到時候台灣觀念板的去化跟回收又出現這些問題委員這個我上禮拜六有去特別去看這些廠商啦所以我們會持續的在了解然後也在督促他們啦好 謝謝 這裡就是一個約內啦 好不好那個就抱歉啦 好不好 請等我林次 林次到你後來不要亂走經濟部林次長\n1199623\t1214997\t賴市長,賴市長,賴市長,對不起喔,我把想到賴署長,我一直叫你來,叫你來,嘿嘿,我都改了,不好意思,好,我也好,我也好,這,這,這出錯了啦,我講的怎麼變這樣,嘿,看到你才去緊張喔,對啊,他能推動喔,這個,這個過程裡面,我想,很多,很多,姿勢節節的事情,剛剛你也聽到,整個太陽能關電板的回收,如果這個樣子的問題,\n1227188\t1255444\t真的不趕快統一整合一套的方式出來是真的會被挑戰這是其一還有先到後續處理去化整個的這個量能的穩定性這個要請賴次一定要一定要非常非常的進入到這樣的一個實質的一個整個整個整個掌控那第二件事情我覺得有點好奇我們一直在推動太陽能那為什麼太陽能熱水器\n1256448\t1283391\t我們現在不做補助了你知道這個事情嗎太陽能熱水器會被颱風吹走太陽能熱水器早期在開發的時候它是有補助的那後來停止補助是因為它的技術已經成熟而且它自己就有效益所以政府就沒有再補助了那我們很多的電氣冰箱\n1284272\t1302130\t它都不成熟所以我們持續經濟部一直在補助我們的冰箱會持續跳電因為不成熟我們的冷氣會持續斷電因為不成熟所以政府就必須要持續補助然後太陽能這個熱水器我們在推太陽能然後這個太陽能熱水器已經成熟了所以他們就去致死其利你的邏輯\n1304997\t1327395\t你今天你待會說你今天講話一些邏輯我也被你有點謝謝謝謝委員指導我們現在希望說屋頂型的部分啊來加速來推動剛剛委員的這個建議我們納入整體來做評估可以嗎不是因為我們一直要朝向這個綠能的占比嘛對不對這個不是其一嗎那你說因為它成熟所以就取消了\n1328404\t1336929\t然後你其他的電器什麼冷氣都還是連續好幾年那個你敢講那些不成熟嗎你講不出來嘛那各大品牌嘛對不對\n1338143\t1365722\t所以委員我會跟能源署一起來檢討包括怎麼樣去有序的推動綠能之外對屋頂型的部分能不能有一些經濟的作為我只是在想啦是不是可以盡快讓這樣的那個你們要達到的目標可以達成嘛那為什麼你們要放棄這一塊這個是不是有相關的統計數據可以讓我們做參考嘛然後也希望兩個星期內是不是可以研究相關的一些因應的辦法作為嘛好不好好謝謝最後一件事情\n1368084\t1392504\t跟這次丹娜斯強豪雨造成 我知道我們雲家人應該整條澳東 應該是三千幾三千四百五十五根三千幾 還要更多 當時統計是兩千多 現在是三千多了然後累積停電一百萬戶嘛 對不對動員全國各區超過九成搶修人力 超過兩千人集中到此次的停電災區進行這個復電搶修嘛\n1396121\t1409214\t各位應該知道一天沒有電還好兩天沒有電就不是很好第三天都還沒有電冰箱裡面的東西全部都倒出來有時候你連馬桶都沒辦法上\n1410407\t1428972\t那個是那個煎熬,然後這種天氣,露乎,露乎,涼涼的還會滴過,那個天氣我們熱到你真的是整個心肝灰燼啦,啊,裡面你手腳過程裡面,所以韌性的這樣的一個電力的配置,真的刻不容緩啦。\n1430012\t1458846\t真的刻不容緩尤其像雲嘉嵐原來地區甚至於我們雲林的山線就像古耕鄉那些台北去搶救他不是只有去爬到電線桿他還要去搬石頭因為都有落石山路絕對都有落石的然後你知道我們那邊有個村長草原村長上一次上一次颱風他幫台電能源排除那些滑落的石頭三天三夜都沒睡\n1460828\t1464531\t他剛才跟我說,你還沒起來給我看,不可能看不見你啊。沒有,沒有在唱啊,沒有在唱電啊,大陣子的車甘奔起來啊,不管是大陣子的動力還是外包起來啊,就站在一旁就還在那裡啊,也沒有機械啊。你還叫人家去補點酒頭,補到來就在那裡,腳都手軟了,還有開到北京的家庭,北京的家庭你看啊,那都不可能啦。\n1486897\t1510572\t所以電線的地下化我們也不是現在才講也是講很久很久了啦齁那我真的希望那次今天來就把這個事情列為首要啦齁這其一啦那其二不管是台電的同仁還是外包的這些工作的這些辛苦的人員是不是給他們有一定的這樣的一個鼓勵啦\n1514103\t1525179\t這次當然是颱風之後 部長特別調整他自己的行程然後去跟台電工會去慰問在當下有跟工會討論到這個問題\n1527302\t1550562\t現今我們對於台電搶修的人員除了他執勤中搶修的作業危險的家籍還有包括什麼物產費這些都有當然我們希望說短期裡面我們所有弟兄希望剩下的1122戶趕快復電之外這是我們唯一的信念但是以經濟部跟台電公司的立場\n1551423\t1577293\t而言的話我們會對於我們所有的國營事業包括特別是台電公司現在在鋪在外面搶修的這個員工如何照委員的建議給他更優渥的這個部分我們單大師的專案獎金可以對台電的同仁鼓勵對外包的工作人員鼓勵嗎可以嗎我們來研究好不好拜託拜託儘快好不好好可以謝謝喔市長好謝謝來謝謝趙委好謝謝劉建國趙委\n","txt":"謝主席 請部長 請社長 請約束我接續剛才陳副委員的這個垂詢基本上不管是電力共生與電力共生 我昨天\n我今天才邀請了三個日本的朋友一個是來到台灣設立格拉斯利飯店的總經理歐里桑另外一個是這個安斯巴的那個總裁他們都到台灣來投資然後他們對台灣的這些漁產基本上非常的喜歡也重視然後把他帶到台灣釣就口湖那一場我想這我要講副長應該很清楚\n這個老闆很驕傲跟他講說其實有很多的台灣的養殖過程裡面其實是日本的技術但是我們到真正養殖的地方那個餘溫的上面有這個太陽光電板這是老闆直接主動講出來還有有設這個太陽光電板台灣的育成率更穩定更安全那我就必須要這麼講這是餘領\n他本身也跟很多漁民來棄養然後也有漁電工生、電魚工生當大家一直在污衊這種綠能燙光電的過程裡面\n我真的是要特別拜託環境部部長,還有我們經濟部林次長,還有漁業署,甚至包括農政單位,應該第一時間要站出來,甚至連台積電都要邀來,台積電買了多少綠電,夠嗎?夠嗎?所以當國家政策往這方向在走,\n然後相關的漁民有受益的情況之下那怎麼一個政策的導引然後實際上的實施狀況大家有這樣的感受是正向的時候怎麼好像我們都很靦腆的不敢去對外去講清楚\n我覺得這不對啦我希望這個部分我是不是特決在這邊做一個具體的這樣一個要求啦好不好好 次長跟副長先請回副長就留下了那請那署長上來啦臨時請回 臨時請回我剛剛也因為聽到前面幾位委員的這樣一個吹詢裡面很清楚他能光電到底會不會造成這一個損害之後會不會造成這一個\n會不會有害的物質去沉澱到大海去沉澱到什麼地方去然後這是大家外界的疑慮那我聽部長還有聽次長的講話有做過相關的一些這樣的一個抽檢嘛然後經過幾天之後來做一個處理看那個水質基本上都還是在標準內嘛都標準內但是我應該這麼講就是說當台灣\n從去年來了三個颱風那現在今年度來了第一個颱風聽說等一下這幾天又會有第二個颱風到底會來幾個颱風在極端氣候不穩定的這樣的一個氣候的一個狀態散之下我們現在看到的當然有一些都符合標準的數據但是當這樣的經常性的情況一直在發生的時候會不會\n會不會卻有意外還是沒有不可抗力的因素的情況之下導致有問題的產生這個大家必須要講清楚\n報告委其實基本上太陽光電板它本身是無害的但是它如果變成廢棄物的時候就變成失業廢棄物那失業廢棄物它絕對不能堆在旁邊然後它一定要把它清除掉用失業廢棄物那它其實可以循環去化的那從它本身來說的話是無害的\n但是它其實你可以想說任何一個廢棄物丟到一個環境裡面反走過必留下痕跡所以我們一定要把它清除一定會有一點些微的影響但是目前來看的話包含了這個經濟部有做我們有做其實目前對環境立即的影響是比較低的但是如果長期來看的話我們還是不希望有這樣的東西跟我們的大自然裡面廢棄的在那個地方存在的\n好 一定會有影響嘛 對不對 蠍尾的影響它還是叫做影響嘛 對不對但累積到一定程度的情況之下那就不是蠍尾的影響了可能各地可能很多地方處理不善就好比說去化處理不當的情況之下可能那個影響就不叫做蠍尾的影響囉會不會這樣發生嘛 對不對我們先要預估這種情境會不會產生嘛我在今年的4月28號的時候在追當時106年運線的一個倉庫嘛 被發現\n儲存將近4000桶50加侖的碳能供電板的這是切消役嘛那時候署長部長都有打呼我那當然打呼的不是很完整後來有在透過公文在跟我做打呼應該也跟委員會都有報告過這個產業從103年開始違法對峙這個廢役造成惡臭甚至於捅破還有切消役洩漏污染我不只多次追蹤還希望環保署來正視這個問題\n所以政府逐漸的開始完備整個太陽能板的製作使用以及回收的規範例如你們有訂定太陽能光電發電設備模組回收會用收支保管機運用作為要點對不對來規定每張太陽能板出產後10年內分10年內要繳納回收費沒有錯嗎這個是對岸產\n這個是對案場 對一般家戶那目前在我們如果是家戶呢 他的屋頂有時候他是由我們的這個案場他去裝設那這樣的話呢 他的清除處理呢 還是還是由這個案場要去負責\n那你只是回答我一小部分嘛就是暗藏去鑽設的 只裝在家戶所以他會自己處理嘛因為他有繳了十年這個處理的費用嘛對不對好 如果不是暗藏呢\n那有一些他不是在案場少數可能是家戶你講少數你要負責任講包委員他只要裝的在申請核准的時候呢他每K瓦就要繳一千元不管他是裝在哪裡只要跟台電裝了這個系統跟台電並聯發電了那他就要受這個規範好署長你既然上來那你就講清楚一點那一般的案場就是說到時候要回收的時候因為有繳這些回收我會用\n會跟特定的回收業者來做這樣的一個回收程序嘛對不對那目前屋頂的小暗場其實也不是住家設的都是那個廠商他去包這個屋頂來設的當然是廠商啊當然不可能是自己去設碳纖維電板這個我們很清楚嘛好但是一般家戶設的這個暗場是廠家去設的碳纖維電板萬一就像颱風這個狀況發生了然後損害了那誰來處理就是那個設置的廠商\n是不是廠商主動來請回收廠商去處理我是這個家戶使用太陽能關電板我就直接聯絡這個廠商那這個廠商就找回收業者來做處理是這樣嗎?是的,因為那個太陽能板就是那個廠商的你講錯了喔你講錯了,我現在在講很清楚要跟你討論前端的事情我們就不再贅述現在講後端的處置如果家戶的太陽能關電板可以這麼處理我們那署長回答我都不是這樣怎麼跟你南沿北側\n我們跟能源署的那個做法還有是一樣的你上次講的跟這次講的原本就不太有一樣怎麼會有一樣部長聽了都在笑了\n那時候你跟我們講說清潔隊可以去收就是說可能有一些民眾他自己會上網買自己就裝一個自己在用那我們這次其實風災也有看到的確有一兩片目前我們統計到就一兩片是民眾自己拿出來說給清潔隊用清潔隊來收那因為量很少所以他給清潔隊之後那我們就會來處理\n那我們是跟經濟隊員說 如果你有收到 那我們後端的處理管道是沒有問題的你就放在你的暫存廠裡面 後端的處理費用會來支付如果你有收到 那現在是因為風災 那有一兩片 有大概是三片是環保局這邊有收到的李代署長你聽清楚嘛你聽清楚嘛對不對 到底是誰收 講清楚\n我現在在講一個是大案場、中案場、小案場一個是家戶型的攤子、光碟板誰裝的已經不是重點了對不對?部長講說自己去買的一兩片你們這裡有很多去看到的一兩片我都沒看到大家在求責要在美國時間去看到這兩片自己找去買沒關係\n是怎麼處理是要一次規定嘛你的要點要全部通通要適用才對嘛但是現在講法李署長你的講法跟我們賴署長講法就是不一樣就是不一樣啊其實是一樣就是不一樣了怎麼會一樣處理後端我們再處理前端\n也就是說他在設置的時候他都是要繳每KY一千元的後製的處理費這個責任是在這個裝置的廠商也就是他的所有錢源剛才講後端是說他如果被摧壞了那那個人那個民眾如果就把他拿去這個回收了\n就是他拿去回收那這時候我們的回收隊會回收但是回收回去他們會集中的去把它處理但是這個責任並沒有說廠商就沒有責任或是不回收他只是在執行的實務有的時候就在研究處訂啊就下來啊就拿去等了啊這時候我們環保機關不會說我不收我不收他會把它收回去再另外做處理\n但是那一個責任其實是那一個所有權人、廠商的責任所以是頭到尾啦你剛才你自己覺得你講話有跟我衝突嗎?我最少聽到這樣\n他在廠商來修,但是應該是廠商的責任,那是他的東西嘛你剛才說他自己提供回收嘛,不然你還提供環保局來修嘛到底是要自己提供回收,還是環保局來回收嘛還是處理的回收,是他正式的這間公司要派人來回收嘛\n我們一般來講都是屬於藥油業者他為的收入 一般是這樣子\n那因為這次是風災 所以我們特地有跟這個環保局來通知緊急情況 請地方公所 清潔隊 環保局去處理這個不是常態我現在跟你講的是一個常態的狀況嘛你們到底怎麼處理啊\n唐太是要有業者因為當時那一千塊也是業者繳所以他要去回收去做處理那是業者的責任但是這次因為風災有的他住在那裡於是他就把他拿去丟掉了這個時候是後面的環保機關也會把他拿去回收為什麼這個屋主因為颱風把他的碳冷關電板摧弱了\n這個屋主怎麼會有那個觀念跟作為就把他的貪婪觀念板拿去丟掉他怎麼不會通知跟他裝飾貪婪板的業者跟他講說我這裡落地 讓人家落沙地純不中說的你要派人來給我回收正常他這樣子也可以啦齁\n整個是他拿去丟掉也可以然後他通知裝設他的業者來回收也可以你怎麼會有兩個也可以他的責任是在這個安裝廠商的身上要拿去丟但是如果這一個住戶他直接就壞了他把他拿去丟後面是說他也會收來處理但是那個一千元每K瓦的一千元的費用是這個廠商他已經繳進去了現在感覺是說算了那一塊不要丟掉啦\n照你來講啦 那個住戶沒有去做 廠商就要做這件事喔 甘要斷掉嘛你到底是斷掉 還是要拿去回收就回收嘛 你這說得清楚了 斷掉是當作廢棄物的啊 廢棄物就當然 公所情結對方不叫要給他修啊 是是那叫做斷掉啊 正常情況下是他要拿去修啊 啊 廢修就沒工啊啊你現在到底你要把全國百姓公家戶的太陽能光電板 繞一塊 拍兩塊 拍五塊\n到底是處處可以自己去探調 還是要通緝創新的業者來做回收的動作你自己說清楚啊 你這樣說叫做也可以 我就聽不到就對了我相信在座所有的官員都是我的同仁 看聽得到嗎責任在那個廠商是廠商要去負責回收\n很清楚喔那為什麼被裝設家戶的這個屋主他可以拿去丟掉為什麼賴署長還跟我講他會去溝通地方環保局跟清潔隊還是要去債\n那個委員可能是因為這個這個制度從108年開始就過了十幾年前以前還有那個自己去買的都有啊現在有的還有啊都沒有在我們的列管裡面部長你不能一直跟我講說自己去買啦你自己去買是看到一兩塊而已你現在跟我講從108年到現在自己去買有多少比例那我們現在來來來來來來農業署你現在給我個數據來\n所有的有暗藏的到底目前在台灣裝修的面積數量是多少家戶的又是多少來部長自己講的一直講自己去買的自己去買的比例又佔多少投機數字馬上公開啊然後你從暗藏怎麼處理家戶你怎麼處理你自己去買又怎麼處理你跟全國民眾講清楚啊\n是 那個我們現在總共全國的太陽光電的安裝量是14.7GW那除了地面型以外 剛才講的其實是屋頂型的屋頂型大概有8.多GW的裝置 將近9的裝置容量那當然這個是Total的容量那剛才部長講的是 我們有一些是很早期因為太陽光電大概已經推動超過十幾年\n那些可能在早期的並沒有做特別的登記管理或是要繳交回收費用會有那樣的那我們這個回收制度訂了以後就所有新設的都有這個裝置的廠商他要繳交相關的費用那他也要負起回收的責任一個政策已經執行十多年了那應該統一的一個規範回收的作業要點基本上不管你是什麼廠\n不管你大小廠啦不管你自己選購的啦不管你自己裝設的啦我想都要有一致處理的標準啦那如果是因地制宜\n還是說什麼樣的一個情況,那或許就另外有所規範嘛對不對,有所處置的方式嘛那我現在聽你講,坦白講已經超過時間了我聽你講到目前為止就是沒有一致性啊,這不對啊但台灣在推動綠能、推動光電的過程裡面連這一個整個回收都還沒有辦法一致性的處理你對國人是沒有辦法交代的啦\n你這個會被挑戰啦台灣又清場了這麼多颱風啦掉下來之後 這是秋霜要去恢修的這是他自己買的 我不相信你會像寶釘這樣搬啊你為什麼要搬 怎麼可以這樣搬啊那自己買的不是很多 你15年以前就對了嘛差不多都要脫太掉了嘛都要換 要更新了嘛你站在光天的 中央機關裡面你對這些15億當前的 到現在還沒換到現在還沒更新的 你要怎麼處理嘛\n你要去調查嗎?你要去盤查嗎?你要去把制度定好嗎?我們這邊來檢討啦因為我們現在未來那個修廢清法這個部分的這個管理會更統一啦這個我們來我們雄安署跟能源署來協調好一個月內可以吧把統一標準訂定出來部長我要求一個月還算給你們很寬裕的時間\n一下又要另外一個颱風來像去年連續三個你怎麼去因應你後面昨天昨天的報導部長你自己講的加以台南因這次颱風損害的太陽光電板約兩千多噸\n兩千多噸,你說會在一個月內處理完成,對不對?一個多月啦,去化啦這個把被棄物壞掉的收集,然後送到去化回收的這個廠一個廠要一個半月左右你如果要說一個多月,是一個月一天還是一個月三十?一個半月啦,要一個半月啦,目前初估啦\n我們不要再發生過去像灰輪胎的事件了那時候你還沒有來當部長你應該知道嘛也灰灰洋洋的對不對那到時候也回收啊也都可以處理啊後來發生什麼事情大家都很清楚還有悶燒的還有大火整個燒到面目全灰的然後回收場沒辦法收然後進到這個汽車維修場然後最後堆置在田間堆置在大馬路邊台灣好像是灰輪胎國家\n你不要到時候台灣變成一個會太陽能光電板的國家那能源署跟環境部來講就真的是會會被民眾很大的這樣一個挑戰因為現在就兩千多噸了你如果再來一次又要多給幾噸\n真的都可以處理完嗎然後你們自己講說你們自己講說預估啦齁203你們環境部是估2032年他能光電板自然老舊鈦換的匯氣量可能會達到一年一萬噸以上是這你們抓出來的東西嗎五萬噸啦要五萬噸喔五萬噸以上嗎對對對啊我們現在量的人大概一個月大概四千多噸啦那未來應該會再提升好所以部長要把握\n目前照這個現在的因為還有很多的業者想做這塊是在申請那因為這個太陽光電板我們希望可以全循環我們我們發生過會這個會計輪胎企劃的問題很嚴重的影響到台灣很多地方的環境是我們過去也處理過農業會農氣的問題一下子廠家廠家可以做一下廠家做的不符合規定一下子一下子一下子是多久已經報半年一年完全沒辦法收\n你不要到時候台灣觀念板的去化跟回收又出現這些問題委員這個我上禮拜六有去特別去看這些廠商啦所以我們會持續的在了解然後也在督促他們啦好 謝謝 這裡就是一個約內啦 好不好那個就抱歉啦 好不好 請等我林次 林次到你後來不要亂走經濟部林次長\n賴市長,賴市長,賴市長,對不起喔,我把想到賴署長,我一直叫你來,叫你來,嘿嘿,我都改了,不好意思,好,我也好,我也好,這,這,這出錯了啦,我講的怎麼變這樣,嘿,看到你才去緊張喔,對啊,他能推動喔,這個,這個過程裡面,我想,很多,很多,姿勢節節的事情,剛剛你也聽到,整個太陽能關電板的回收,如果這個樣子的問題,\n真的不趕快統一整合一套的方式出來是真的會被挑戰這是其一還有先到後續處理去化整個的這個量能的穩定性這個要請賴次一定要一定要非常非常的進入到這樣的一個實質的一個整個整個整個掌控那第二件事情我覺得有點好奇我們一直在推動太陽能那為什麼太陽能熱水器\n我們現在不做補助了你知道這個事情嗎太陽能熱水器會被颱風吹走太陽能熱水器早期在開發的時候它是有補助的那後來停止補助是因為它的技術已經成熟而且它自己就有效益所以政府就沒有再補助了那我們很多的電氣冰箱\n它都不成熟所以我們持續經濟部一直在補助我們的冰箱會持續跳電因為不成熟我們的冷氣會持續斷電因為不成熟所以政府就必須要持續補助然後太陽能這個熱水器我們在推太陽能然後這個太陽能熱水器已經成熟了所以他們就去致死其利你的邏輯\n你今天你待會說你今天講話一些邏輯我也被你有點謝謝謝謝委員指導我們現在希望說屋頂型的部分啊來加速來推動剛剛委員的這個建議我們納入整體來做評估可以嗎不是因為我們一直要朝向這個綠能的占比嘛對不對這個不是其一嗎那你說因為它成熟所以就取消了\n然後你其他的電器什麼冷氣都還是連續好幾年那個你敢講那些不成熟嗎你講不出來嘛那各大品牌嘛對不對\n所以委員我會跟能源署一起來檢討包括怎麼樣去有序的推動綠能之外對屋頂型的部分能不能有一些經濟的作為我只是在想啦是不是可以盡快讓這樣的那個你們要達到的目標可以達成嘛那為什麼你們要放棄這一塊這個是不是有相關的統計數據可以讓我們做參考嘛然後也希望兩個星期內是不是可以研究相關的一些因應的辦法作為嘛好不好好謝謝最後一件事情\n跟這次丹娜斯強豪雨造成 我知道我們雲家人應該整條澳東 應該是三千幾三千四百五十五根三千幾 還要更多 當時統計是兩千多 現在是三千多了然後累積停電一百萬戶嘛 對不對動員全國各區超過九成搶修人力 超過兩千人集中到此次的停電災區進行這個復電搶修嘛\n各位應該知道一天沒有電還好兩天沒有電就不是很好第三天都還沒有電冰箱裡面的東西全部都倒出來有時候你連馬桶都沒辦法上\n那個是那個煎熬,然後這種天氣,露乎,露乎,涼涼的還會滴過,那個天氣我們熱到你真的是整個心肝灰燼啦,啊,裡面你手腳過程裡面,所以韌性的這樣的一個電力的配置,真的刻不容緩啦。\n真的刻不容緩尤其像雲嘉嵐原來地區甚至於我們雲林的山線就像古耕鄉那些台北去搶救他不是只有去爬到電線桿他還要去搬石頭因為都有落石山路絕對都有落石的然後你知道我們那邊有個村長草原村長上一次上一次颱風他幫台電能源排除那些滑落的石頭三天三夜都沒睡\n他剛才跟我說,你還沒起來給我看,不可能看不見你啊。沒有,沒有在唱啊,沒有在唱電啊,大陣子的車甘奔起來啊,不管是大陣子的動力還是外包起來啊,就站在一旁就還在那裡啊,也沒有機械啊。你還叫人家去補點酒頭,補到來就在那裡,腳都手軟了,還有開到北京的家庭,北京的家庭你看啊,那都不可能啦。\n所以電線的地下化我們也不是現在才講也是講很久很久了啦齁那我真的希望那次今天來就把這個事情列為首要啦齁這其一啦那其二不管是台電的同仁還是外包的這些工作的這些辛苦的人員是不是給他們有一定的這樣的一個鼓勵啦\n這次當然是颱風之後 部長特別調整他自己的行程然後去跟台電工會去慰問在當下有跟工會討論到這個問題\n現今我們對於台電搶修的人員除了他執勤中搶修的作業危險的家籍還有包括什麼物產費這些都有當然我們希望說短期裡面我們所有弟兄希望剩下的1122戶趕快復電之外這是我們唯一的信念但是以經濟部跟台電公司的立場\n而言的話我們會對於我們所有的國營事業包括特別是台電公司現在在鋪在外面搶修的這個員工如何照委員的建議給他更優渥的這個部分我們單大師的專案獎金可以對台電的同仁鼓勵對外包的工作人員鼓勵嗎可以嗎我們來研究好不好拜託拜託儘快好不好好可以謝謝喔市長好謝謝來謝謝趙委好謝謝劉建國趙委\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.907 --> 00:17.603\n謝主席請部長請社長請約束我接續剛才陳副委員的這個垂詢基本上不管是電力共生與電力共生我昨天\n\n00:18.933 --> 00:44.284\n我今天才邀請了三個日本的朋友一個是來到台灣設立格拉斯利飯店的總經理歐里桑另外一個是這個安斯巴的那個總裁他們都到台灣來投資然後他們對台灣的這些漁產基本上非常的喜歡也重視然後把他帶到台灣釣就口湖那一場我想這我要講副長應該很清楚\n\n00:46.288 --> 01:12.534\n這個老闆很驕傲跟他講說其實有很多的台灣的養殖過程裡面其實是日本的技術但是我們到真正養殖的地方那個餘溫的上面有這個太陽光電板這是老闆直接主動講出來還有有設這個太陽光電板台灣的育成率更穩定更安全那我就必須要這麼講這是餘領\n\n01:14.827 --> 01:24.844\n他本身也跟很多漁民來棄養然後也有漁電工生、電魚工生當大家一直在污衊這種綠能燙光電的過程裡面\n\n01:27.014 --> 01:41.189\n我真的是要特別拜託環境部部長,還有我們經濟部林次長,還有漁業署,甚至包括農政單位,應該第一時間要站出來,甚至連台積電都要邀來,台積電買了多少綠電,夠嗎?夠嗎?所以當國家政策往這方向在走,\n\n01:48.436 --> 02:06.873\n然後相關的漁民有受益的情況之下那怎麼一個政策的導引然後實際上的實施狀況大家有這樣的感受是正向的時候怎麼好像我們都很靦腆的不敢去對外去講清楚\n\n02:07.614 --> 02:36.406\n我覺得這不對啦我希望這個部分我是不是特決在這邊做一個具體的這樣一個要求啦好不好好次長跟副長先請回副長就留下了那請那署長上來啦臨時請回臨時請回我剛剛也因為聽到前面幾位委員的這樣一個吹詢裡面很清楚他能光電到底會不會造成這一個損害之後會不會造成這一個\n\n02:38.537 --> 03:00.985\n會不會有害的物質去沉澱到大海去沉澱到什麼地方去然後這是大家外界的疑慮那我聽部長還有聽次長的講話有做過相關的一些這樣的一個抽檢嘛然後經過幾天之後來做一個處理看那個水質基本上都還是在標準內嘛都標準內但是我應該這麼講就是說當台灣\n\n03:03.666 --> 03:27.589\n從去年來了三個颱風那現在今年度來了第一個颱風聽說等一下這幾天又會有第二個颱風到底會來幾個颱風在極端氣候不穩定的這樣的一個氣候的一個狀態散之下我們現在看到的當然有一些都符合標準的數據但是當這樣的經常性的情況一直在發生的時候會不會\n\n03:28.816 --> 03:40.082\n會不會卻有意外還是沒有不可抗力的因素的情況之下導致有問題的產生這個大家必須要講清楚\n\n03:41.975 --> 03:59.854\n報告委其實基本上太陽光電板它本身是無害的但是它如果變成廢棄物的時候就變成失業廢棄物那失業廢棄物它絕對不能堆在旁邊然後它一定要把它清除掉用失業廢棄物那它其實可以循環去化的那從它本身來說的話是無害的\n\n03:59.974 --> 04:23.684\n但是它其實你可以想說任何一個廢棄物丟到一個環境裡面反走過必留下痕跡所以我們一定要把它清除一定會有一點些微的影響但是目前來看的話包含了這個經濟部有做我們有做其實目前對環境立即的影響是比較低的但是如果長期來看的話我們還是不希望有這樣的東西跟我們的大自然裡面廢棄的在那個地方存在的\n\n04:24.144 --> 04:50.635\n好一定會有影響嘛對不對蠍尾的影響它還是叫做影響嘛對不對但累積到一定程度的情況之下那就不是蠍尾的影響了可能各地可能很多地方處理不善就好比說去化處理不當的情況之下可能那個影響就不叫做蠍尾的影響囉會不會這樣發生嘛對不對我們先要預估這種情境會不會產生嘛我在今年的4月28號的時候在追當時106年運線的一個倉庫嘛被發現\n\n04:53.216 --> 05:19.279\n儲存將近4000桶50加侖的碳能供電板的這是切消役嘛那時候署長部長都有打呼我那當然打呼的不是很完整後來有在透過公文在跟我做打呼應該也跟委員會都有報告過這個產業從103年開始違法對峙這個廢役造成惡臭甚至於捅破還有切消役洩漏污染我不只多次追蹤還希望環保署來正視這個問題\n\n05:20.820 --> 05:43.228\n所以政府逐漸的開始完備整個太陽能板的製作使用以及回收的規範例如你們有訂定太陽能光電發電設備模組回收會用收支保管機運用作為要點對不對來規定每張太陽能板出產後10年內分10年內要繳納回收費沒有錯嗎這個是對岸產\n\n05:47.910 --> 05:51.833\n這個是對案場對一般家戶那目前在我們如果是家戶呢他的屋頂有時候他是由我們的這個案場他去裝設那這樣的話呢他的清除處理呢還是還是由這個案場要去負責\n\n06:10.049 --> 06:23.656\n那你只是回答我一小部分嘛就是暗藏去鑽設的只裝在家戶所以他會自己處理嘛因為他有繳了十年這個處理的費用嘛對不對好如果不是暗藏呢\n\n06:24.732 --> 06:50.221\n那有一些他不是在案場少數可能是家戶你講少數你要負責任講包委員他只要裝的在申請核准的時候呢他每K瓦就要繳一千元不管他是裝在哪裡只要跟台電裝了這個系統跟台電並聯發電了那他就要受這個規範好署長你既然上來那你就講清楚一點那一般的案場就是說到時候要回收的時候因為有繳這些回收我會用\n\n06:50.881 --> 07:07.590\n會跟特定的回收業者來做這樣的一個回收程序嘛對不對那目前屋頂的小暗場其實也不是住家設的都是那個廠商他去包這個屋頂來設的當然是廠商啊當然不可能是自己去設碳纖維電板這個我們很清楚嘛好但是一般家戶設的這個暗場是廠家去設的碳纖維電板萬一就像颱風這個狀況發生了然後損害了那誰來處理就是那個設置的廠商\n\n07:20.197 --> 07:48.916\n是不是廠商主動來請回收廠商去處理我是這個家戶使用太陽能關電板我就直接聯絡這個廠商那這個廠商就找回收業者來做處理是這樣嗎?是的,因為那個太陽能板就是那個廠商的你講錯了喔你講錯了,我現在在講很清楚要跟你討論前端的事情我們就不再贅述現在講後端的處置如果家戶的太陽能關電板可以這麼處理我們那署長回答我都不是這樣怎麼跟你南沿北側\n\n07:51.667 --> 08:06.047\n我們跟能源署的那個做法還有是一樣的你上次講的跟這次講的原本就不太有一樣怎麼會有一樣部長聽了都在笑了\n\n08:08.257 --> 08:28.992\n那時候你跟我們講說清潔隊可以去收就是說可能有一些民眾他自己會上網買自己就裝一個自己在用那我們這次其實風災也有看到的確有一兩片目前我們統計到就一兩片是民眾自己拿出來說給清潔隊用清潔隊來收那因為量很少所以他給清潔隊之後那我們就會來處理\n\n08:30.336 --> 08:57.683\n那我們是跟經濟隊員說如果你有收到那我們後端的處理管道是沒有問題的你就放在你的暫存廠裡面後端的處理費用會來支付如果你有收到那現在是因為風災那有一兩片有大概是三片是環保局這邊有收到的李代署長你聽清楚嘛你聽清楚嘛對不對到底是誰收講清楚\n\n08:59.427 --> 09:14.879\n我現在在講一個是大案場、中案場、小案場一個是家戶型的攤子、光碟板誰裝的已經不是重點了對不對?部長講說自己去買的一兩片你們這裡有很多去看到的一兩片我都沒看到大家在求責要在美國時間去看到這兩片自己找去買沒關係\n\n09:17.611 --> 09:34.860\n是怎麼處理是要一次規定嘛你的要點要全部通通要適用才對嘛但是現在講法李署長你的講法跟我們賴署長講法就是不一樣就是不一樣啊其實是一樣就是不一樣了怎麼會一樣處理後端我們再處理前端\n\n09:35.380 --> 09:54.211\n也就是說他在設置的時候他都是要繳每KY一千元的後製的處理費這個責任是在這個裝置的廠商也就是他的所有錢源剛才講後端是說他如果被摧壞了那那個人那個民眾如果就把他拿去這個回收了\n\n09:55.792 --> 10:21.326\n就是他拿去回收那這時候我們的回收隊會回收但是回收回去他們會集中的去把它處理但是這個責任並沒有說廠商就沒有責任或是不回收他只是在執行的實務有的時候就在研究處訂啊就下來啊就拿去等了啊這時候我們環保機關不會說我不收我不收他會把它收回去再另外做處理\n\n10:22.046 --> 10:26.089\n但是那一個責任其實是那一個所有權人、廠商的責任所以是頭到尾啦你剛才你自己覺得你講話有跟我衝突嗎?我最少聽到這樣\n\n10:37.195 --> 10:45.941\n他在廠商來修,但是應該是廠商的責任,那是他的東西嘛你剛才說他自己提供回收嘛,不然你還提供環保局來修嘛到底是要自己提供回收,還是環保局來回收嘛還是處理的回收,是他正式的這間公司要派人來回收嘛\n\n11:04.356 --> 11:05.437\n我們一般來講都是屬於藥油業者他為的收入一般是這樣子\n\n11:28.238 --> 11:36.932\n那因為這次是風災所以我們特地有跟這個環保局來通知緊急情況請地方公所清潔隊環保局去處理這個不是常態我現在跟你講的是一個常態的狀況嘛你們到底怎麼處理啊\n\n11:44.892 --> 11:58.402\n唐太是要有業者因為當時那一千塊也是業者繳所以他要去回收去做處理那是業者的責任但是這次因為風災有的他住在那裡於是他就把他拿去丟掉了這個時候是後面的環保機關也會把他拿去回收為什麼這個屋主因為颱風把他的碳冷關電板摧弱了\n\n12:10.453 --> 12:24.819\n這個屋主怎麼會有那個觀念跟作為就把他的貪婪觀念板拿去丟掉他怎麼不會通知跟他裝飾貪婪板的業者跟他講說我這裡落地讓人家落沙地純不中說的你要派人來給我回收正常他這樣子也可以啦齁\n\n12:26.640 --> 12:51.813\n整個是他拿去丟掉也可以然後他通知裝設他的業者來回收也可以你怎麼會有兩個也可以他的責任是在這個安裝廠商的身上要拿去丟但是如果這一個住戶他直接就壞了他把他拿去丟後面是說他也會收來處理但是那個一千元每K瓦的一千元的費用是這個廠商他已經繳進去了現在感覺是說算了那一塊不要丟掉啦\n\n12:54.995 --> 13:21.092\n照你來講啦那個住戶沒有去做廠商就要做這件事喔甘要斷掉嘛你到底是斷掉還是要拿去回收就回收嘛你這說得清楚了斷掉是當作廢棄物的啊廢棄物就當然公所情結對方不叫要給他修啊是是那叫做斷掉啊正常情況下是他要拿去修啊啊廢修就沒工啊啊你現在到底你要把全國百姓公家戶的太陽能光電板繞一塊拍兩塊拍五塊\n\n13:22.393 --> 13:43.909\n到底是處處可以自己去探調還是要通緝創新的業者來做回收的動作你自己說清楚啊你這樣說叫做也可以我就聽不到就對了我相信在座所有的官員都是我的同仁看聽得到嗎責任在那個廠商是廠商要去負責回收\n\n13:44.810 --> 13:53.382\n很清楚喔那為什麼被裝設家戶的這個屋主他可以拿去丟掉為什麼賴署長還跟我講他會去溝通地方環保局跟清潔隊還是要去債\n\n14:01.279 --> 14:22.126\n那個委員可能是因為這個這個制度從108年開始就過了十幾年前以前還有那個自己去買的都有啊現在有的還有啊都沒有在我們的列管裡面部長你不能一直跟我講說自己去買啦你自己去買是看到一兩塊而已你現在跟我講從108年到現在自己去買有多少比例那我們現在來來來來來來農業署你現在給我個數據來\n\n14:25.587 --> 14:47.510\n所有的有暗藏的到底目前在台灣裝修的面積數量是多少家戶的又是多少來部長自己講的一直講自己去買的自己去買的比例又佔多少投機數字馬上公開啊然後你從暗藏怎麼處理家戶你怎麼處理你自己去買又怎麼處理你跟全國民眾講清楚啊\n\n14:48.351 --> 15:10.466\n是那個我們現在總共全國的太陽光電的安裝量是14.7GW那除了地面型以外剛才講的其實是屋頂型的屋頂型大概有8.多GW的裝置將近9的裝置容量那當然這個是Total的容量那剛才部長講的是我們有一些是很早期因為太陽光電大概已經推動超過十幾年\n\n15:11.947 --> 15:39.540\n那些可能在早期的並沒有做特別的登記管理或是要繳交回收費用會有那樣的那我們這個回收制度訂了以後就所有新設的都有這個裝置的廠商他要繳交相關的費用那他也要負起回收的責任一個政策已經執行十多年了那應該統一的一個規範回收的作業要點基本上不管你是什麼廠\n\n15:40.902 --> 15:49.650\n不管你大小廠啦不管你自己選購的啦不管你自己裝設的啦我想都要有一致處理的標準啦那如果是因地制宜\n\n15:50.749 --> 16:13.638\n還是說什麼樣的一個情況,那或許就另外有所規範嘛對不對,有所處置的方式嘛那我現在聽你講,坦白講已經超過時間了我聽你講到目前為止就是沒有一致性啊,這不對啊但台灣在推動綠能、推動光電的過程裡面連這一個整個回收都還沒有辦法一致性的處理你對國人是沒有辦法交代的啦\n\n16:14.728 --> 16:25.256\n你這個會被挑戰啦台灣又清場了這麼多颱風啦掉下來之後這是秋霜要去恢修的這是他自己買的我不相信你會像寶釘這樣搬啊你為什麼要搬怎麼可以這樣搬啊那自己買的不是很多你15年以前就對了嘛差不多都要脫太掉了嘛都要換要更新了嘛你站在光天的中央機關裡面你對這些15億當前的到現在還沒換到現在還沒更新的你要怎麼處理嘛\n\n16:45.165 --> 16:48.668\n你要去調查嗎?你要去盤查嗎?你要去把制度定好嗎?我們這邊來檢討啦因為我們現在未來那個修廢清法這個部分的這個管理會更統一啦這個我們來我們雄安署跟能源署來協調好一個月內可以吧把統一標準訂定出來部長我要求一個月還算給你們很寬裕的時間\n\n17:13.223 --> 17:25.030\n一下又要另外一個颱風來像去年連續三個你怎麼去因應你後面昨天昨天的報導部長你自己講的加以台南因這次颱風損害的太陽光電板約兩千多噸\n\n17:26.409 --> 17:47.382\n兩千多噸,你說會在一個月內處理完成,對不對?一個多月啦,去化啦這個把被棄物壞掉的收集,然後送到去化回收的這個廠一個廠要一個半月左右你如果要說一個多月,是一個月一天還是一個月三十?一個半月啦,要一個半月啦,目前初估啦\n\n17:48.803 --> 18:16.261\n我們不要再發生過去像灰輪胎的事件了那時候你還沒有來當部長你應該知道嘛也灰灰洋洋的對不對那到時候也回收啊也都可以處理啊後來發生什麼事情大家都很清楚還有悶燒的還有大火整個燒到面目全灰的然後回收場沒辦法收然後進到這個汽車維修場然後最後堆置在田間堆置在大馬路邊台灣好像是灰輪胎國家\n\n18:17.708 --> 18:33.700\n你不要到時候台灣變成一個會太陽能光電板的國家那能源署跟環境部來講就真的是會會被民眾很大的這樣一個挑戰因為現在就兩千多噸了你如果再來一次又要多給幾噸\n\n18:35.259 --> 19:02.441\n真的都可以處理完嗎然後你們自己講說你們自己講說預估啦齁203你們環境部是估2032年他能光電板自然老舊鈦換的匯氣量可能會達到一年一萬噸以上是這你們抓出來的東西嗎五萬噸啦要五萬噸喔五萬噸以上嗎對對對啊我們現在量的人大概一個月大概四千多噸啦那未來應該會再提升好所以部長要把握\n\n19:03.753 --> 19:32.391\n目前照這個現在的因為還有很多的業者想做這塊是在申請那因為這個太陽光電板我們希望可以全循環我們我們發生過會這個會計輪胎企劃的問題很嚴重的影響到台灣很多地方的環境是我們過去也處理過農業會農氣的問題一下子廠家廠家可以做一下廠家做的不符合規定一下子一下子一下子是多久已經報半年一年完全沒辦法收\n\n19:33.857 --> 19:57.068\n你不要到時候台灣觀念板的去化跟回收又出現這些問題委員這個我上禮拜六有去特別去看這些廠商啦所以我們會持續的在了解然後也在督促他們啦好謝謝這裡就是一個約內啦好不好那個就抱歉啦好不好請等我林次林次到你後來不要亂走經濟部林次長\n\n19:59.623 --> 20:14.997\n賴市長,賴市長,賴市長,對不起喔,我把想到賴署長,我一直叫你來,叫你來,嘿嘿,我都改了,不好意思,好,我也好,我也好,這,這,這出錯了啦,我講的怎麼變這樣,嘿,看到你才去緊張喔,對啊,他能推動喔,這個,這個過程裡面,我想,很多,很多,姿勢節節的事情,剛剛你也聽到,整個太陽能關電板的回收,如果這個樣子的問題,\n\n20:27.188 --> 20:55.444\n真的不趕快統一整合一套的方式出來是真的會被挑戰這是其一還有先到後續處理去化整個的這個量能的穩定性這個要請賴次一定要一定要非常非常的進入到這樣的一個實質的一個整個整個整個掌控那第二件事情我覺得有點好奇我們一直在推動太陽能那為什麼太陽能熱水器\n\n20:56.448 --> 21:23.391\n我們現在不做補助了你知道這個事情嗎太陽能熱水器會被颱風吹走太陽能熱水器早期在開發的時候它是有補助的那後來停止補助是因為它的技術已經成熟而且它自己就有效益所以政府就沒有再補助了那我們很多的電氣冰箱\n\n21:24.272 --> 21:42.130\n它都不成熟所以我們持續經濟部一直在補助我們的冰箱會持續跳電因為不成熟我們的冷氣會持續斷電因為不成熟所以政府就必須要持續補助然後太陽能這個熱水器我們在推太陽能然後這個太陽能熱水器已經成熟了所以他們就去致死其利你的邏輯\n\n21:44.997 --> 22:07.395\n你今天你待會說你今天講話一些邏輯我也被你有點謝謝謝謝委員指導我們現在希望說屋頂型的部分啊來加速來推動剛剛委員的這個建議我們納入整體來做評估可以嗎不是因為我們一直要朝向這個綠能的占比嘛對不對這個不是其一嗎那你說因為它成熟所以就取消了\n\n22:08.404 --> 22:16.929\n然後你其他的電器什麼冷氣都還是連續好幾年那個你敢講那些不成熟嗎你講不出來嘛那各大品牌嘛對不對\n\n22:18.143 --> 22:45.722\n所以委員我會跟能源署一起來檢討包括怎麼樣去有序的推動綠能之外對屋頂型的部分能不能有一些經濟的作為我只是在想啦是不是可以盡快讓這樣的那個你們要達到的目標可以達成嘛那為什麼你們要放棄這一塊這個是不是有相關的統計數據可以讓我們做參考嘛然後也希望兩個星期內是不是可以研究相關的一些因應的辦法作為嘛好不好好謝謝最後一件事情\n\n22:48.084 --> 23:12.504\n跟這次丹娜斯強豪雨造成我知道我們雲家人應該整條澳東應該是三千幾三千四百五十五根三千幾還要更多當時統計是兩千多現在是三千多了然後累積停電一百萬戶嘛對不對動員全國各區超過九成搶修人力超過兩千人集中到此次的停電災區進行這個復電搶修嘛\n\n23:16.121 --> 23:29.214\n各位應該知道一天沒有電還好兩天沒有電就不是很好第三天都還沒有電冰箱裡面的東西全部都倒出來有時候你連馬桶都沒辦法上\n\n23:30.407 --> 23:48.972\n那個是那個煎熬,然後這種天氣,露乎,露乎,涼涼的還會滴過,那個天氣我們熱到你真的是整個心肝灰燼啦,啊,裡面你手腳過程裡面,所以韌性的這樣的一個電力的配置,真的刻不容緩啦。\n\n23:50.012 --> 24:18.846\n真的刻不容緩尤其像雲嘉嵐原來地區甚至於我們雲林的山線就像古耕鄉那些台北去搶救他不是只有去爬到電線桿他還要去搬石頭因為都有落石山路絕對都有落石的然後你知道我們那邊有個村長草原村長上一次上一次颱風他幫台電能源排除那些滑落的石頭三天三夜都沒睡\n\n24:20.828 --> 24:24.531\n他剛才跟我說,你還沒起來給我看,不可能看不見你啊。沒有,沒有在唱啊,沒有在唱電啊,大陣子的車甘奔起來啊,不管是大陣子的動力還是外包起來啊,就站在一旁就還在那裡啊,也沒有機械啊。你還叫人家去補點酒頭,補到來就在那裡,腳都手軟了,還有開到北京的家庭,北京的家庭你看啊,那都不可能啦。\n\n24:46.897 --> 25:10.572\n所以電線的地下化我們也不是現在才講也是講很久很久了啦齁那我真的希望那次今天來就把這個事情列為首要啦齁這其一啦那其二不管是台電的同仁還是外包的這些工作的這些辛苦的人員是不是給他們有一定的這樣的一個鼓勵啦\n\n25:14.103 --> 25:25.179\n這次當然是颱風之後部長特別調整他自己的行程然後去跟台電工會去慰問在當下有跟工會討論到這個問題\n\n25:27.302 --> 25:50.562\n現今我們對於台電搶修的人員除了他執勤中搶修的作業危險的家籍還有包括什麼物產費這些都有當然我們希望說短期裡面我們所有弟兄希望剩下的1122戶趕快復電之外這是我們唯一的信念但是以經濟部跟台電公司的立場\n\n25:51.423 --> 26:17.293\n而言的話我們會對於我們所有的國營事業包括特別是台電公司現在在鋪在外面搶修的這個員工如何照委員的建議給他更優渥的這個部分我們單大師的專案獎金可以對台電的同仁鼓勵對外包的工作人員鼓勵嗎可以嗎我們來研究好不好拜託拜託儘快好不好好可以謝謝喔市長好謝謝來謝謝趙委好謝謝劉建國趙委\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.907,"end":17.603,"text":"謝主席 請部長 請社長 請約束我接續剛才陳副委員的這個垂詢基本上不管是電力共生與電力共生 我昨天"},{"start":18.933,"end":44.284,"text":"我今天才邀請了三個日本的朋友一個是來到台灣設立格拉斯利飯店的總經理歐里桑另外一個是這個安斯巴的那個總裁他們都到台灣來投資然後他們對台灣的這些漁產基本上非常的喜歡也重視然後把他帶到台灣釣就口湖那一場我想這我要講副長應該很清楚"},{"start":46.288,"end":72.534,"text":"這個老闆很驕傲跟他講說其實有很多的台灣的養殖過程裡面其實是日本的技術但是我們到真正養殖的地方那個餘溫的上面有這個太陽光電板這是老闆直接主動講出來還有有設這個太陽光電板台灣的育成率更穩定更安全那我就必須要這麼講這是餘領"},{"start":74.827,"end":84.844,"text":"他本身也跟很多漁民來棄養然後也有漁電工生、電魚工生當大家一直在污衊這種綠能燙光電的過程裡面"},{"start":87.014,"end":101.189,"text":"我真的是要特別拜託環境部部長,還有我們經濟部林次長,還有漁業署,甚至包括農政單位,應該第一時間要站出來,甚至連台積電都要邀來,台積電買了多少綠電,夠嗎?夠嗎?所以當國家政策往這方向在走,"},{"start":108.436,"end":126.873,"text":"然後相關的漁民有受益的情況之下那怎麼一個政策的導引然後實際上的實施狀況大家有這樣的感受是正向的時候怎麼好像我們都很靦腆的不敢去對外去講清楚"},{"start":127.614,"end":156.406,"text":"我覺得這不對啦我希望這個部分我是不是特決在這邊做一個具體的這樣一個要求啦好不好好 次長跟副長先請回副長就留下了那請那署長上來啦臨時請回 臨時請回我剛剛也因為聽到前面幾位委員的這樣一個吹詢裡面很清楚他能光電到底會不會造成這一個損害之後會不會造成這一個"},{"start":158.537,"end":180.985,"text":"會不會有害的物質去沉澱到大海去沉澱到什麼地方去然後這是大家外界的疑慮那我聽部長還有聽次長的講話有做過相關的一些這樣的一個抽檢嘛然後經過幾天之後來做一個處理看那個水質基本上都還是在標準內嘛都標準內但是我應該這麼講就是說當台灣"},{"start":183.666,"end":207.589,"text":"從去年來了三個颱風那現在今年度來了第一個颱風聽說等一下這幾天又會有第二個颱風到底會來幾個颱風在極端氣候不穩定的這樣的一個氣候的一個狀態散之下我們現在看到的當然有一些都符合標準的數據但是當這樣的經常性的情況一直在發生的時候會不會"},{"start":208.816,"end":220.082,"text":"會不會卻有意外還是沒有不可抗力的因素的情況之下導致有問題的產生這個大家必須要講清楚"},{"start":221.975,"end":239.854,"text":"報告委其實基本上太陽光電板它本身是無害的但是它如果變成廢棄物的時候就變成失業廢棄物那失業廢棄物它絕對不能堆在旁邊然後它一定要把它清除掉用失業廢棄物那它其實可以循環去化的那從它本身來說的話是無害的"},{"start":239.974,"end":263.684,"text":"但是它其實你可以想說任何一個廢棄物丟到一個環境裡面反走過必留下痕跡所以我們一定要把它清除一定會有一點些微的影響但是目前來看的話包含了這個經濟部有做我們有做其實目前對環境立即的影響是比較低的但是如果長期來看的話我們還是不希望有這樣的東西跟我們的大自然裡面廢棄的在那個地方存在的"},{"start":264.144,"end":290.635,"text":"好 一定會有影響嘛 對不對 蠍尾的影響它還是叫做影響嘛 對不對但累積到一定程度的情況之下那就不是蠍尾的影響了可能各地可能很多地方處理不善就好比說去化處理不當的情況之下可能那個影響就不叫做蠍尾的影響囉會不會這樣發生嘛 對不對我們先要預估這種情境會不會產生嘛我在今年的4月28號的時候在追當時106年運線的一個倉庫嘛 被發現"},{"start":293.216,"end":319.279,"text":"儲存將近4000桶50加侖的碳能供電板的這是切消役嘛那時候署長部長都有打呼我那當然打呼的不是很完整後來有在透過公文在跟我做打呼應該也跟委員會都有報告過這個產業從103年開始違法對峙這個廢役造成惡臭甚至於捅破還有切消役洩漏污染我不只多次追蹤還希望環保署來正視這個問題"},{"start":320.82,"end":343.228,"text":"所以政府逐漸的開始完備整個太陽能板的製作使用以及回收的規範例如你們有訂定太陽能光電發電設備模組回收會用收支保管機運用作為要點對不對來規定每張太陽能板出產後10年內分10年內要繳納回收費沒有錯嗎這個是對岸產"},{"start":347.91,"end":351.833,"text":"這個是對案場 對一般家戶那目前在我們如果是家戶呢 他的屋頂有時候他是由我們的這個案場他去裝設那這樣的話呢 他的清除處理呢 還是還是由這個案場要去負責"},{"start":370.049,"end":383.656,"text":"那你只是回答我一小部分嘛就是暗藏去鑽設的 只裝在家戶所以他會自己處理嘛因為他有繳了十年這個處理的費用嘛對不對好 如果不是暗藏呢"},{"start":384.732,"end":410.221,"text":"那有一些他不是在案場少數可能是家戶你講少數你要負責任講包委員他只要裝的在申請核准的時候呢他每K瓦就要繳一千元不管他是裝在哪裡只要跟台電裝了這個系統跟台電並聯發電了那他就要受這個規範好署長你既然上來那你就講清楚一點那一般的案場就是說到時候要回收的時候因為有繳這些回收我會用"},{"start":410.881,"end":427.59,"text":"會跟特定的回收業者來做這樣的一個回收程序嘛對不對那目前屋頂的小暗場其實也不是住家設的都是那個廠商他去包這個屋頂來設的當然是廠商啊當然不可能是自己去設碳纖維電板這個我們很清楚嘛好但是一般家戶設的這個暗場是廠家去設的碳纖維電板萬一就像颱風這個狀況發生了然後損害了那誰來處理就是那個設置的廠商"},{"start":440.197,"end":468.916,"text":"是不是廠商主動來請回收廠商去處理我是這個家戶使用太陽能關電板我就直接聯絡這個廠商那這個廠商就找回收業者來做處理是這樣嗎?是的,因為那個太陽能板就是那個廠商的你講錯了喔你講錯了,我現在在講很清楚要跟你討論前端的事情我們就不再贅述現在講後端的處置如果家戶的太陽能關電板可以這麼處理我們那署長回答我都不是這樣怎麼跟你南沿北側"},{"start":471.667,"end":486.047,"text":"我們跟能源署的那個做法還有是一樣的你上次講的跟這次講的原本就不太有一樣怎麼會有一樣部長聽了都在笑了"},{"start":488.257,"end":508.992,"text":"那時候你跟我們講說清潔隊可以去收就是說可能有一些民眾他自己會上網買自己就裝一個自己在用那我們這次其實風災也有看到的確有一兩片目前我們統計到就一兩片是民眾自己拿出來說給清潔隊用清潔隊來收那因為量很少所以他給清潔隊之後那我們就會來處理"},{"start":510.336,"end":537.683,"text":"那我們是跟經濟隊員說 如果你有收到 那我們後端的處理管道是沒有問題的你就放在你的暫存廠裡面 後端的處理費用會來支付如果你有收到 那現在是因為風災 那有一兩片 有大概是三片是環保局這邊有收到的李代署長你聽清楚嘛你聽清楚嘛對不對 到底是誰收 講清楚"},{"start":539.427,"end":554.879,"text":"我現在在講一個是大案場、中案場、小案場一個是家戶型的攤子、光碟板誰裝的已經不是重點了對不對?部長講說自己去買的一兩片你們這裡有很多去看到的一兩片我都沒看到大家在求責要在美國時間去看到這兩片自己找去買沒關係"},{"start":557.611,"end":574.86,"text":"是怎麼處理是要一次規定嘛你的要點要全部通通要適用才對嘛但是現在講法李署長你的講法跟我們賴署長講法就是不一樣就是不一樣啊其實是一樣就是不一樣了怎麼會一樣處理後端我們再處理前端"},{"start":575.38,"end":594.211,"text":"也就是說他在設置的時候他都是要繳每KY一千元的後製的處理費這個責任是在這個裝置的廠商也就是他的所有錢源剛才講後端是說他如果被摧壞了那那個人那個民眾如果就把他拿去這個回收了"},{"start":595.792,"end":621.326,"text":"就是他拿去回收那這時候我們的回收隊會回收但是回收回去他們會集中的去把它處理但是這個責任並沒有說廠商就沒有責任或是不回收他只是在執行的實務有的時候就在研究處訂啊就下來啊就拿去等了啊這時候我們環保機關不會說我不收我不收他會把它收回去再另外做處理"},{"start":622.046,"end":626.089,"text":"但是那一個責任其實是那一個所有權人、廠商的責任所以是頭到尾啦你剛才你自己覺得你講話有跟我衝突嗎?我最少聽到這樣"},{"start":637.195,"end":645.941,"text":"他在廠商來修,但是應該是廠商的責任,那是他的東西嘛你剛才說他自己提供回收嘛,不然你還提供環保局來修嘛到底是要自己提供回收,還是環保局來回收嘛還是處理的回收,是他正式的這間公司要派人來回收嘛"},{"start":664.356,"end":665.437,"text":"我們一般來講都是屬於藥油業者他為的收入 一般是這樣子"},{"start":688.238,"end":696.932,"text":"那因為這次是風災 所以我們特地有跟這個環保局來通知緊急情況 請地方公所 清潔隊 環保局去處理這個不是常態我現在跟你講的是一個常態的狀況嘛你們到底怎麼處理啊"},{"start":704.892,"end":718.402,"text":"唐太是要有業者因為當時那一千塊也是業者繳所以他要去回收去做處理那是業者的責任但是這次因為風災有的他住在那裡於是他就把他拿去丟掉了這個時候是後面的環保機關也會把他拿去回收為什麼這個屋主因為颱風把他的碳冷關電板摧弱了"},{"start":730.453,"end":744.819,"text":"這個屋主怎麼會有那個觀念跟作為就把他的貪婪觀念板拿去丟掉他怎麼不會通知跟他裝飾貪婪板的業者跟他講說我這裡落地 讓人家落沙地純不中說的你要派人來給我回收正常他這樣子也可以啦齁"},{"start":746.64,"end":771.813,"text":"整個是他拿去丟掉也可以然後他通知裝設他的業者來回收也可以你怎麼會有兩個也可以他的責任是在這個安裝廠商的身上要拿去丟但是如果這一個住戶他直接就壞了他把他拿去丟後面是說他也會收來處理但是那個一千元每K瓦的一千元的費用是這個廠商他已經繳進去了現在感覺是說算了那一塊不要丟掉啦"},{"start":774.995,"end":801.092,"text":"照你來講啦 那個住戶沒有去做 廠商就要做這件事喔 甘要斷掉嘛你到底是斷掉 還是要拿去回收就回收嘛 你這說得清楚了 斷掉是當作廢棄物的啊 廢棄物就當然 公所情結對方不叫要給他修啊 是是那叫做斷掉啊 正常情況下是他要拿去修啊 啊 廢修就沒工啊啊你現在到底你要把全國百姓公家戶的太陽能光電板 繞一塊 拍兩塊 拍五塊"},{"start":802.393,"end":823.909,"text":"到底是處處可以自己去探調 還是要通緝創新的業者來做回收的動作你自己說清楚啊 你這樣說叫做也可以 我就聽不到就對了我相信在座所有的官員都是我的同仁 看聽得到嗎責任在那個廠商是廠商要去負責回收"},{"start":824.81,"end":833.382,"text":"很清楚喔那為什麼被裝設家戶的這個屋主他可以拿去丟掉為什麼賴署長還跟我講他會去溝通地方環保局跟清潔隊還是要去債"},{"start":841.279,"end":862.126,"text":"那個委員可能是因為這個這個制度從108年開始就過了十幾年前以前還有那個自己去買的都有啊現在有的還有啊都沒有在我們的列管裡面部長你不能一直跟我講說自己去買啦你自己去買是看到一兩塊而已你現在跟我講從108年到現在自己去買有多少比例那我們現在來來來來來來農業署你現在給我個數據來"},{"start":865.587,"end":887.51,"text":"所有的有暗藏的到底目前在台灣裝修的面積數量是多少家戶的又是多少來部長自己講的一直講自己去買的自己去買的比例又佔多少投機數字馬上公開啊然後你從暗藏怎麼處理家戶你怎麼處理你自己去買又怎麼處理你跟全國民眾講清楚啊"},{"start":888.351,"end":910.466,"text":"是 那個我們現在總共全國的太陽光電的安裝量是14.7GW那除了地面型以外 剛才講的其實是屋頂型的屋頂型大概有8.多GW的裝置 將近9的裝置容量那當然這個是Total的容量那剛才部長講的是 我們有一些是很早期因為太陽光電大概已經推動超過十幾年"},{"start":911.947,"end":939.54,"text":"那些可能在早期的並沒有做特別的登記管理或是要繳交回收費用會有那樣的那我們這個回收制度訂了以後就所有新設的都有這個裝置的廠商他要繳交相關的費用那他也要負起回收的責任一個政策已經執行十多年了那應該統一的一個規範回收的作業要點基本上不管你是什麼廠"},{"start":940.902,"end":949.65,"text":"不管你大小廠啦不管你自己選購的啦不管你自己裝設的啦我想都要有一致處理的標準啦那如果是因地制宜"},{"start":950.749,"end":973.638,"text":"還是說什麼樣的一個情況,那或許就另外有所規範嘛對不對,有所處置的方式嘛那我現在聽你講,坦白講已經超過時間了我聽你講到目前為止就是沒有一致性啊,這不對啊但台灣在推動綠能、推動光電的過程裡面連這一個整個回收都還沒有辦法一致性的處理你對國人是沒有辦法交代的啦"},{"start":974.728,"end":985.256,"text":"你這個會被挑戰啦台灣又清場了這麼多颱風啦掉下來之後 這是秋霜要去恢修的這是他自己買的 我不相信你會像寶釘這樣搬啊你為什麼要搬 怎麼可以這樣搬啊那自己買的不是很多 你15年以前就對了嘛差不多都要脫太掉了嘛都要換 要更新了嘛你站在光天的 中央機關裡面你對這些15億當前的 到現在還沒換到現在還沒更新的 你要怎麼處理嘛"},{"start":1005.165,"end":1008.668,"text":"你要去調查嗎?你要去盤查嗎?你要去把制度定好嗎?我們這邊來檢討啦因為我們現在未來那個修廢清法這個部分的這個管理會更統一啦這個我們來我們雄安署跟能源署來協調好一個月內可以吧把統一標準訂定出來部長我要求一個月還算給你們很寬裕的時間"},{"start":1033.223,"end":1045.03,"text":"一下又要另外一個颱風來像去年連續三個你怎麼去因應你後面昨天昨天的報導部長你自己講的加以台南因這次颱風損害的太陽光電板約兩千多噸"},{"start":1046.409,"end":1067.382,"text":"兩千多噸,你說會在一個月內處理完成,對不對?一個多月啦,去化啦這個把被棄物壞掉的收集,然後送到去化回收的這個廠一個廠要一個半月左右你如果要說一個多月,是一個月一天還是一個月三十?一個半月啦,要一個半月啦,目前初估啦"},{"start":1068.803,"end":1096.261,"text":"我們不要再發生過去像灰輪胎的事件了那時候你還沒有來當部長你應該知道嘛也灰灰洋洋的對不對那到時候也回收啊也都可以處理啊後來發生什麼事情大家都很清楚還有悶燒的還有大火整個燒到面目全灰的然後回收場沒辦法收然後進到這個汽車維修場然後最後堆置在田間堆置在大馬路邊台灣好像是灰輪胎國家"},{"start":1097.708,"end":1113.7,"text":"你不要到時候台灣變成一個會太陽能光電板的國家那能源署跟環境部來講就真的是會會被民眾很大的這樣一個挑戰因為現在就兩千多噸了你如果再來一次又要多給幾噸"},{"start":1115.259,"end":1142.441,"text":"真的都可以處理完嗎然後你們自己講說你們自己講說預估啦齁203你們環境部是估2032年他能光電板自然老舊鈦換的匯氣量可能會達到一年一萬噸以上是這你們抓出來的東西嗎五萬噸啦要五萬噸喔五萬噸以上嗎對對對啊我們現在量的人大概一個月大概四千多噸啦那未來應該會再提升好所以部長要把握"},{"start":1143.753,"end":1172.391,"text":"目前照這個現在的因為還有很多的業者想做這塊是在申請那因為這個太陽光電板我們希望可以全循環我們我們發生過會這個會計輪胎企劃的問題很嚴重的影響到台灣很多地方的環境是我們過去也處理過農業會農氣的問題一下子廠家廠家可以做一下廠家做的不符合規定一下子一下子一下子是多久已經報半年一年完全沒辦法收"},{"start":1173.857,"end":1197.068,"text":"你不要到時候台灣觀念板的去化跟回收又出現這些問題委員這個我上禮拜六有去特別去看這些廠商啦所以我們會持續的在了解然後也在督促他們啦好 謝謝 這裡就是一個約內啦 好不好那個就抱歉啦 好不好 請等我林次 林次到你後來不要亂走經濟部林次長"},{"start":1199.623,"end":1214.997,"text":"賴市長,賴市長,賴市長,對不起喔,我把想到賴署長,我一直叫你來,叫你來,嘿嘿,我都改了,不好意思,好,我也好,我也好,這,這,這出錯了啦,我講的怎麼變這樣,嘿,看到你才去緊張喔,對啊,他能推動喔,這個,這個過程裡面,我想,很多,很多,姿勢節節的事情,剛剛你也聽到,整個太陽能關電板的回收,如果這個樣子的問題,"},{"start":1227.188,"end":1255.444,"text":"真的不趕快統一整合一套的方式出來是真的會被挑戰這是其一還有先到後續處理去化整個的這個量能的穩定性這個要請賴次一定要一定要非常非常的進入到這樣的一個實質的一個整個整個整個掌控那第二件事情我覺得有點好奇我們一直在推動太陽能那為什麼太陽能熱水器"},{"start":1256.448,"end":1283.391,"text":"我們現在不做補助了你知道這個事情嗎太陽能熱水器會被颱風吹走太陽能熱水器早期在開發的時候它是有補助的那後來停止補助是因為它的技術已經成熟而且它自己就有效益所以政府就沒有再補助了那我們很多的電氣冰箱"},{"start":1284.272,"end":1302.13,"text":"它都不成熟所以我們持續經濟部一直在補助我們的冰箱會持續跳電因為不成熟我們的冷氣會持續斷電因為不成熟所以政府就必須要持續補助然後太陽能這個熱水器我們在推太陽能然後這個太陽能熱水器已經成熟了所以他們就去致死其利你的邏輯"},{"start":1304.997,"end":1327.395,"text":"你今天你待會說你今天講話一些邏輯我也被你有點謝謝謝謝委員指導我們現在希望說屋頂型的部分啊來加速來推動剛剛委員的這個建議我們納入整體來做評估可以嗎不是因為我們一直要朝向這個綠能的占比嘛對不對這個不是其一嗎那你說因為它成熟所以就取消了"},{"start":1328.404,"end":1336.929,"text":"然後你其他的電器什麼冷氣都還是連續好幾年那個你敢講那些不成熟嗎你講不出來嘛那各大品牌嘛對不對"},{"start":1338.143,"end":1365.722,"text":"所以委員我會跟能源署一起來檢討包括怎麼樣去有序的推動綠能之外對屋頂型的部分能不能有一些經濟的作為我只是在想啦是不是可以盡快讓這樣的那個你們要達到的目標可以達成嘛那為什麼你們要放棄這一塊這個是不是有相關的統計數據可以讓我們做參考嘛然後也希望兩個星期內是不是可以研究相關的一些因應的辦法作為嘛好不好好謝謝最後一件事情"},{"start":1368.084,"end":1392.504,"text":"跟這次丹娜斯強豪雨造成 我知道我們雲家人應該整條澳東 應該是三千幾三千四百五十五根三千幾 還要更多 當時統計是兩千多 現在是三千多了然後累積停電一百萬戶嘛 對不對動員全國各區超過九成搶修人力 超過兩千人集中到此次的停電災區進行這個復電搶修嘛"},{"start":1396.121,"end":1409.214,"text":"各位應該知道一天沒有電還好兩天沒有電就不是很好第三天都還沒有電冰箱裡面的東西全部都倒出來有時候你連馬桶都沒辦法上"},{"start":1410.407,"end":1428.972,"text":"那個是那個煎熬,然後這種天氣,露乎,露乎,涼涼的還會滴過,那個天氣我們熱到你真的是整個心肝灰燼啦,啊,裡面你手腳過程裡面,所以韌性的這樣的一個電力的配置,真的刻不容緩啦。"},{"start":1430.012,"end":1458.846,"text":"真的刻不容緩尤其像雲嘉嵐原來地區甚至於我們雲林的山線就像古耕鄉那些台北去搶救他不是只有去爬到電線桿他還要去搬石頭因為都有落石山路絕對都有落石的然後你知道我們那邊有個村長草原村長上一次上一次颱風他幫台電能源排除那些滑落的石頭三天三夜都沒睡"},{"start":1460.828,"end":1464.531,"text":"他剛才跟我說,你還沒起來給我看,不可能看不見你啊。沒有,沒有在唱啊,沒有在唱電啊,大陣子的車甘奔起來啊,不管是大陣子的動力還是外包起來啊,就站在一旁就還在那裡啊,也沒有機械啊。你還叫人家去補點酒頭,補到來就在那裡,腳都手軟了,還有開到北京的家庭,北京的家庭你看啊,那都不可能啦。"},{"start":1486.897,"end":1510.572,"text":"所以電線的地下化我們也不是現在才講也是講很久很久了啦齁那我真的希望那次今天來就把這個事情列為首要啦齁這其一啦那其二不管是台電的同仁還是外包的這些工作的這些辛苦的人員是不是給他們有一定的這樣的一個鼓勵啦"},{"start":1514.103,"end":1525.179,"text":"這次當然是颱風之後 部長特別調整他自己的行程然後去跟台電工會去慰問在當下有跟工會討論到這個問題"},{"start":1527.302,"end":1550.562,"text":"現今我們對於台電搶修的人員除了他執勤中搶修的作業危險的家籍還有包括什麼物產費這些都有當然我們希望說短期裡面我們所有弟兄希望剩下的1122戶趕快復電之外這是我們唯一的信念但是以經濟部跟台電公司的立場"},{"start":1551.423,"end":1577.293,"text":"而言的話我們會對於我們所有的國營事業包括特別是台電公司現在在鋪在外面搶修的這個員工如何照委員的建議給他更優渥的這個部分我們單大師的專案獎金可以對台電的同仁鼓勵對外包的工作人員鼓勵嗎可以嗎我們來研究好不好拜託拜託儘快好不好好可以謝謝喔市長好謝謝來謝謝趙委好謝謝劉建國趙委"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1351,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（13時13分）謝謝主席，請部長、請次長、請漁業署。我接續剛才陳培瑜委員的垂詢，基本上不管是電漁共生、漁電共生，我昨天才邀請了3個日本的朋友，一個是來到臺灣設立格拉斯麗飯店的總經理奧立先生，另外一個是庵SPA的總裁，他們都到臺灣來投資。他們對臺灣的這些漁產基本上非常喜歡也重視，然後我把他帶到臺灣鯛，就是口湖那一場，我想我要講的部長應該很清楚，這個老闆很很驕傲地跟他講，臺灣的很多養殖過程裡面，其實是日本的技術，但是我們到養殖的地方，那個魚塭上面有太陽能光電板，老闆直接主動講出來，還好有設這個太陽能光電板，臺灣鯛的育成率更穩定、更安全。那我就必須這麼講，其本身也跟很多漁民契養，也有漁電共生、電漁共生，而當大家一直在污衊這種綠能、太陽光電的過程裡面，我真的是要特別拜託環境部部長、經濟部林次長還有漁業署，甚至於包含農政單位，應該第一時間要站出來，甚至連台積電都要邀來，台積電買了多少綠電，夠嗎？夠嗎？當國家政策往這方向在走，相關漁民有受益的情況之下，那怎麼會一個政策的導引，實際上的實施狀況，大家有這樣的感受、是正向的時候，好像我們都很靦腆地不敢對外講清楚，我覺得這不對！我希望這個部分，我是不是特別在這邊做一個具體的要求，好不好？好，次長跟副署長先請回，部長就留下，請賴署長上來。","也因為聽到前面幾位委員的垂詢，很清楚，太陽能光電損害之後，到底會不會造成污染？會不會有有害的物質沉澱到大海、沉澱到什麼地方去？這是外界大家的疑慮，我聽部長還有次長的講法，有做過相關的一些抽檢，經過幾天之後做一個處理，看到水質基本上都還是在標準內。但我應該這麼講，臺灣從去年來了3個颱風，今年度來了第一個颱風，聽說這幾天又會有第二個颱風，到底未來還有幾個颱風，在極端氣候不穩的狀態之下？我們現在看到的當然有些都符合標準數據，但是當這樣經常性的情況一直發生的時候，會不會有意外，還是在有不可抗力因素的情況之下，導致問題的產生？這個大家必須要講清楚。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實基本上太陽光電板本身是無害的。"],["劉委員建國：是。"],["彭部長啓明：但是它如果變成廢棄物的時候，就變事業廢棄物，而事業廢棄物絕對不能堆在旁邊，一定要把它清除掉，用事業廢棄物，它其實可以循環去化的。從它本身來說的話是無害的，但是你可以想成任何一個廢棄物丟到一個環境裡面，凡走過必留下痕跡，所以我們一定要把它清除，一定會有一點、些微的影響。目前來看的話，包含了經濟部有做、我們有做的，其實目前對環境立即的影響是比較低的，但如果長期來看，我們還是不希望有這樣的東西在大自然裡面，廢棄的在那個地方存在。"],["劉委員建國：一定會有影響，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：些微的影響，它還是叫做影響，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：但累積到一定程度的情況之下，那就不是些微的影響了。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["劉委員建國：可能各地、可能很多地方處理不善，好比去化處理不當的情況之下，可能那個影響就不叫做些微的影響了，會不會發生？對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：我們現在預估這種情境會不會產生嘛！今年4月28號的時候我在追106年當時雲林縣的一個倉庫，被發現儲存將近4,000桶、50加侖太陽能光電板的切削液，那時候署長、部長都有答復我，當然答復得不是很完整，後來再透過公文跟我答復，應該也跟委員會都有報告過。這個倉庫從103年開始違法堆置廢液，造成惡臭，甚至於桶破，還有切削液洩漏污染。我不只多次追蹤，還希望環保署正視這個問題，所以政府逐漸地開始完備整個太陽能板的製作、使用以及回收的規範，例如你們有訂定「太陽能光電發電設備模組回收費用收支保管及運用作業要點」，對不對？規定每張太陽能板出廠後分10年內要繳納回收費，沒有錯嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["劉委員建國：好，這個是對案場，沒有錯嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["劉委員建國：然後對一般家戶？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，目前如果是家戶，他的屋頂有時候是由我們的案場去裝設，這樣的話他的清除處理還是由這個案場要負責。"],["劉委員建國：你只是回答我的問題的一小部分，就是案場去裝設的，裝在家戶，所以他會自己去處理嘛！因為他有繳10年的處理的費用，對不對？好，那如果不是案場呢？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：那有一些不是案場，少數可能是家戶……"],["劉委員建國：你講少數，你要負責任地講……"],["李代理署長君禮：報告委員，他只要裝了，在申請核准的時候，他每KW就要繳1,000元，不管他是裝在哪裡，只要跟台電裝了這個系統，跟台電併聯發電了，那他就要受這個規範。"],["劉委員建國：好，署長，你既然上來了，你就講清楚一點。一般案場到了要回收的時候，因為有繳這些回收的費用，會跟特定的回收業者來進行回收的程序，對不對？"],["李代理署長君禮：對。目前屋頂的小案場其實也不是住家設的，都是廠商去包屋頂來設的。"],["劉委員建國：當然是廠商，不可能是自己去設太陽能光電板，這個我們很清楚嘛！"],["李代理署長君禮：是、是、是。"],["劉委員建國：但是廠商去一般家戶設的太陽能光電案場，萬一像這次颱風造成損害，誰來處理？"],["李代理署長君禮：就是那個設置的廠商。"],["劉委員建國：設置的廠商主動請回收廠商去處理？如果我是使用這個太陽能光電板的家戶，我就直接聯絡這個廠商？"],["李代理署長君禮：是的。"],["劉委員建國：這個廠商就找回收業者來做處理，是這樣嗎？"],["李代理署長君禮：是的，因為那個太陽能板是廠商的，它要負責處理。"],["劉委員建國：你講錯了喔！我現在要很清楚地來跟你討論，前端的事情我們就不再贅述，現在講後端的處置。如果家戶的太陽能光電板可以這麼處理，賴署長回答我的都不是這樣，怎麼跟你的南轅北轍？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：我們跟能源署的做法是一樣的。"],["劉委員建國：你上次講的跟這次講的原本就不大一樣，怎麼會一樣？部長聽了都在笑了！那個時候你跟我說清潔隊可以去收，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，可能有一些民眾自己會上網買，自己安裝、自己使用。這次風災我們的確也有看到一、兩片，目前我們統計到的只有一、兩片是民眾自己拿出來給清潔隊，由清潔隊來收，因為量很少，所以他給清潔隊之後，我們就會來處理。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：我們是跟清潔隊員說：如果你有收到的話，我們後端的處理管道是沒有問題的，你就放在你的暫存場裡面，後端的處理費用會來支付；如果你有收到。現在是因為風災，有一、兩片，大概3片是環保局這邊有收到的。"],["劉委員建國：李代理署長，你聽清楚了吧？"],["李代理署長君禮：是！"],["劉委員建國：你聽清楚了嘛！對不對？"],["李代理署長君禮：我瞭解。"],["劉委員建國：那到底是誰收？講清楚！"],["李代理署長君禮：就是……"],["劉委員建國：我現在講的一個是大案場、中案場、小案場，一個是家戶型的太陽能光電板，誰裝的已經不是重點了，對不對？"],["李代理署長君禮：對。"],["劉委員建國：部長說自己去買的一、兩片，你們這麼厲害，正好去看到那一、兩片，我都沒看到！大家在救災，你們還有那個美國時間去看到民眾自己去買的這一、兩片！沒關係，這是怎麼處理的？要有一致的規定嘛！你們的要點要全部適用才對嘛！可是現在你的講法和賴署長的講法就是不一樣啊！"],["李代理署長君禮：其實是一樣的……"],["劉委員建國：就是不一樣啦！怎麼會一樣？"],["李代理署長君禮：他們在處理後端，我們在處理前端，也就是說，它在設置的時候都要繳每KW 1,000元的後置處理費，那個責任是在這個裝置的廠商，也就是它的所有權人。剛才講後端是說，它如果被吹壞了，那個民眾如果就把它拿去回收了，這時候我們的回收隊會回收，回收回去他們會集中處理，並不是廠商就沒有責任或者是不回收，只是在執行實務上，因為就裝在民眾住家的屋頂，被吹掉之後民眾就直接把它拿去丟掉，這時候環保機關不會拒收，而是會把它收回去再另外做處理，但那其實是那個所有權人，也就是廠商的責任。所以是頭和尾啦！"],["劉委員建國：你覺得自己說得有點衝突嗎？我很詳細在聽耶！屋頂的太陽能光電板摔壞了嘛！"],["李代理署長君禮：對。照理說是由廠商來收……"],["劉委員建國：對嘛！"],["李代理署長君禮：應該是廠商的責任……"],["劉委員建國：是啦！"],["李代理署長君禮：那是它的東西嘛！"],["劉委員建國：那民眾為什麼要自己拿去回收？你剛剛說他們自己拿去回收嘛！"],["李代理署長君禮：對，有一些住戶……"],["劉委員建國：放在那邊，環保局也可以來收嘛！所以到底是要自己拿去回收，還是環保局來回收？或者是裝設的這家公司要派人來回收？你要講清楚喔！如果是太陽能公司裝設的，它就要派人來回收，因為它已經繳錢了，為什麼要地方的環保局、地方公所的清潔隊去負擔太陽能光電板的回收作業？問題就是這樣而已，可是你們兩個的說法就不一致啊！"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，一般來講都是由業者來收，因為這次是風災，所以我們特地跟環保局……"],["劉委員建國：緊急情況發生時，請地方公所清潔隊、環保局去處理，這個不是常態，我現在跟你講的是常態的狀況，你們到底怎麼處理啊？"],["李代理署長君禮：常態是要由業者處理，因為當時那1,000塊錢也是業者繳的，所以他們要去回收、去做處理，那是業者的責任，但是這次因為風災，住戶屋頂的太陽能板掉下來，於是他們就把它拿去丟掉，這個時候後面的環保機關也會把它拿去回收、做處理，但是那個費用……"],["劉委員建國：為什麼颱風把太陽能光電板吹落了，這個屋主怎麼會有那個觀念跟作為，就把他的太陽能光電板拿去丟掉？他怎麼不會通知幫他裝設太陽能光電板的業者，跟他說我這裡被吹落1塊、2塊或3塊，你要派人來回收？"],["李代理署長君禮：正常他這樣子也可以啦！他可以叫那個……"],["劉委員建國：你說的「也可以」等於是他拿去丟掉也可以，然後他通知幫他裝設太陽能光電板的業者來回收也可以，你怎麼會有兩個「也可以」？"],["李代理署長君禮：它的責任是在這個安裝廠商的身上、要拿去丟，但是如果住戶因為它壞了，直接把它拿去丟，後面也會收來處理，但是那個每KW 1,000元的費用是這個廠商已經繳進去了，現在只是誰把那塊太陽能板搬去丟掉啦！照理說，如果住戶沒有去做，廠商就要做這件事，把它搬去丟掉。"],["劉委員建國：到底是丟掉還是拿去回收？"],["李代理署長君禮：就是回收。"],["劉委員建國：你要講清楚耶！"],["李代理署長君禮：對啦！就是要把它……"],["劉委員建國：丟掉是當做廢棄物耶！廢棄物當然是公所的清潔隊、環保局要收啊！"],["李代理署長君禮：是、是。"],["劉委員建國：那叫做「丟掉」啊！"],["李代理署長君禮：正常情況下是他要拿去回收啦！"],["劉委員建國：回收是不一樣的啊！你現在要跟全國百姓說，家戶的太陽能光電板被吹落1塊、損壞2塊或5塊，到底是屋主可以自己拿去丟掉，還是要通知裝設的業者來做回收的動作？你要講清楚啊！"],["李代理署長君禮：是。"],["劉委員建國：你說「也可以」，我就是聽不懂啦！"],["李代理署長君禮：是業者……"],["劉委員建國：在座所有的官員和我們同仁有人聽得懂嗎？"],["李代理署長君禮：責任在廠商，是廠商要去負責回收。"],["劉委員建國：很清楚喔！"],["李代理署長君禮：是。"],["劉委員建國：那為什麼裝設太陽能板的家戶，屋主可以拿去丟掉？為什麼賴署長跟我講，他可以和地方環保局、清潔隊溝通，他們還是要去載？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，因為這個制度從108年開始到現在，已經很久了，十幾年前還有自己去買的，這些都有，而且現在有的還在，可是都沒有在我們的列管裡面。"],["劉委員建國：部長，你不能一直跟我講自己去買啦！自己去買的你只看到一、兩塊而已，你是要跟我講，從108年到現在，自己去買的占多少比例……"],["彭部長啓明：以前……"],["劉委員建國：來、來、來，能源署，你現在給我一個數據，來！所有案場到底目前在臺灣裝設的面積是多少？家戶的又是多少？部長一直講自己去買的、自己去買的，比例又占多少？統計數字馬上公開啊！然後你說案場怎麼處理、家戶怎麼處理、自己去買的又怎麼處理，你跟全國民眾講清楚啊！"],["李代理署長君禮：現在全國太陽光電的安裝量是4.7GW，除了地面型以外，剛才講的其實是屋頂型的，屋頂型大概有八點多、將近9GW的裝置容量，當然，這是total的容量。剛才部長講的是我們有一些很早期，因為太陽光電大概已經推動十幾年了，那些早期的可能並沒有做特別的登記、管理或是繳交回收費用，會有那樣的。我們這個回收制度訂定以後，所有新設的都由裝置廠商繳交相關的費用，同時也要負起回收的責任。"],["劉委員建國：一個政策已經執行十多年了，應該要有統一規範的回收作業要點，不管是什麼場，也不管是大、小場或是自己選購、裝設的，都要有一致的處理標準，如果是因地制宜還是說怎麼樣的情況，或許就另外有所規範、另有處置的方式嘛！對不對？坦白講，根據你的說法，目前為止就是沒有一致性，這不對啊！臺灣在推動綠能、推動光電的過程裡面，連整個回收都還沒有辦法做一致性的處理，這對國人是沒有辦法交代的啦！你這樣會被挑戰啦！"],["李代理署長君禮：是，因為有……"],["劉委員建國：臺灣經常有這麼多颱風，太陽能板掉下來之後，這個是廠商要來回收的、這個是他自己買的，我不相信你有本事像部長這樣區分啦！這是要怎麼區分？哪有辦法這樣區分？說那是自己買的，不是很多，十幾年前裝的也差不多都要淘汰掉了，都要換、要更新了嘛！站在光電主管機關的立場，對於十幾年前裝設，到現在還沒汰換、更新的，你要怎麼處理嘛？你要不要去調查？你要不要去盤查？你要不要去把制度制定好？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我們這邊來檢討，因為我們未來修廢清法，這個部分的管理會更統一，這個部分我們循環署跟能源署來協調。"],["劉委員建國：好，一個月內可以吧？把統一標準訂定出來，部長，我要求一個月還算給你們很多寬裕的時間，一下又要有另外一個颱風來，像去年連續三個，你怎麼去因應？昨天的報導，部長你自己講的，嘉義、臺南因這次颱風損害的太陽光電板約兩千多噸，兩千多噸！你說會在一個月內處理完成，對不對？這是你說的嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：一個多月啦。"],["劉委員建國：是嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：去化啦！"],["劉委員建國：你講這個話也很好笑。"],["彭部長啓明：把它廢棄物壞掉的收集，然後送到去化回收廠，那個廠要一個半月左右。"],["劉委員建國：你怎麼不說兩個月內，你為什麼要說一個多月？是一個月1天還是一個月30天？"],["彭部長啓明：要一個半月啦，目前粗估一個半月。"],["劉委員建國：我們不要像發生過去像廢輪胎的事件，那時候你也還沒來當部長，你應該知道嘛，也沸沸揚揚的，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["劉委員建國：那時候也說回收，也都可以處理啊，後來發生什麼事情，大家都很清楚，還有悶燒的，還有大火整個燒到面目全非的，回收場沒辦法收，進到汽車的維修場，最後堆置在田間、堆置在大馬路邊，臺灣好像是廢輪胎國家，你不要到時候臺灣變成一個廢太陽能光電板的國家，這樣對能源署跟環境部來講，真的會面臨民眾很大的一個挑戰。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["劉委員建國：因為現在就兩千多噸了，如果再來一個颱風要再多幾噸？真的都可以去處理完嗎？然後你們環境部自己講預估是2032年太陽能光電板自然老舊汰換的廢棄量可能會達到一年1萬噸以上，這是你們抓出來的東西，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：5萬噸啦，要5萬噸。"],["劉委員建國：5萬噸以上嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對，我們現在量能一個月大概四千多噸，未來應該會再提升。"],["劉委員建國：好，所以部長有把握？"],["彭部長啓明：照現在的狀況，因為還有很多的業者想做這一塊，在申請當中，因為太陽光電板我們希望可以全循環。"],["劉委員建國：我們發生過廢棄輪胎去化的問題，很嚴重影響到臺灣很多地方的環境，我們過去也處理過農業廢容器的問題，一下子廠家可以做，一下子廠家做得不符合規定，一下子、一下子，一下子是多久你知道嗎？半年、一年完全沒辦法收，你不要到時候臺灣太陽能光電板的去化跟回收又出現這些問題。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我上禮拜六有特別去看這些廠商，所以我們會持續再了解，也再督促他們。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。這個部分一個月內啦，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["劉委員建國：不好意思啦，好不好？你先請回座。","接著請教林次，林次都來了，不要白走一趟，經濟部林次長。是賴次長，對不起！我只想到賴署長，我一直叫……我跟他又是好朋友，所以這樣很不好意思！"],["賴次長建信：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長……次長啦！講話怎麼變成這樣？看到你反而會緊張。太陽能推動的過程裡面，我想很多枝枝節節的事情，剛剛你也聽到整個太陽能光電板的回收，如果這樣的問題真的不趕快統一整合一套方式出來，是真的會被挑戰，這是其一，再來還有牽涉到後續處理去化整個量能的穩定性，這整個要請賴次長一定要非常非常的實質掌控。","第二件事情，我覺得有點好奇，我們一直在推動太陽能，為什麼太陽能熱水器，我們現在不做補助了，你知道這個事情嗎？太陽能熱水器會被颱風吹走？"],["賴次長建信：我請能源署署長說明一下，可以嗎？"],["李代理署長君禮：是，太陽能熱水器早期在開發的時候，它是有補助的，後來停止補助是因為它的技術已經成熟，而且它自己就有效益，所以政府就沒有再補助了。"],["劉委員建國：我們很多的電器、冰箱等等，它都不成熟，所以經濟部持續一直在補助？"],["李代理署長君禮：那是高效……"],["劉委員建國：我們的冰箱會持續跳電，因為不成熟，我們的冷氣會持續斷電，因為不成熟，所以政府就必須要持續補助？我們在推太陽能，這個太陽能熱水器已經成熟了，所以他們就自食其力？代理署長，你今天講話的一些邏輯，我也被你有一點……"],["賴次長建信：謝謝委員指導，我們現在希望屋頂型的部分加速來推動，剛剛委員的建議，我們納入整體來做評估可以嗎？"],["劉委員建國：不是，因為我們一直要朝向增加綠能的占比，對不對？這個不是其因嗎？"],["賴次長建信：對。"],["劉委員建國：你說因為它成熟，所以就取消了，然後其他的電器、冷氣等等都還是連續好幾年補助，你敢講那些不成熟嗎？你講不出來嘛，那是各大品牌嘛！"],["賴次長建信：所以委員我會跟能源署一起來檢討，包括怎麼樣永續的推動綠能之外，對屋頂型的部分能不能有一些精進的作為。"],["劉委員建國：我只是在想，是不是儘快讓你們要達到的目標可以達成？為什麼你們要放棄這一塊，這個是不是有相關的統計數據，可以讓我們做參考，也希望兩個星期內，是不是可以研議相關的一些因應的辦法、作為，好不好？"],["賴次長建信：是，遵照辦理。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝賴次。","最後一件事情，這次丹娜絲強豪雨造成我們雲嘉南電線桿折斷，我知道應該是將近3,000支。"],["賴次長建信：3,455根。"],["劉委員建國：三千多支，還要更多，當時統計是兩千多，現在是三千多了。然後累積停電100萬戶，動員全國各區域超過九成搶修人力，超過2,000人集中到此次的停電災區進行復電搶修。各位應該知道，一天沒有電還好，兩天沒有電就不是很好，第三天都還沒有電，冰箱裡面的東西全部要倒出來，有時候你連馬桶都沒辦法上，那個煎熬，然後下雨涼涼的還過得去，但是天氣熱到你真的是整個「心狂火著」，台電在搶救的過程中，所以韌性的這樣一個電力配置真的刻不容緩，尤其像雲嘉南沿海地區，甚至於連我們雲林的山線，就像古坑鄉，台電去搶救，他們不是只有爬到電線桿，他們還要去搬石頭，因為都有落石，山路絕對都會有落石的。你知道我們那邊有個草嶺村村長，上一次颱風，他幫台電人員排除那些滑落的石頭，三天三夜都沒睡，他打電話跟我說：你還不上來看我，我可能看不到你了。不然無法搶電啊！台電的車、工班上去了，不管是台電同仁還是外包上去的，都上到一半了，還要下來啊！也沒機械，你還叫他們在那邊搬石頭，搬到腳軟手軟，還有力氣爬上去到電線桿？那都不可能啦！所以電線的地下化，我們也不是現在才講，也是講很久很久了啦，我真的希望賴次今天來，就把這件事情列為首要，這是其一。其二，不管是台電的同仁還是外包的這些辛苦的人員，是不是給他們有一定的鼓勵？"],["賴次長建信：是，這次丹娜絲颱風之後，部長特別調整他自己的行程去跟台電工會慰問，在當下有跟工會討論到這個問題，現今我們對於台電搶修的人員，除了他值勤中搶修作業的危險加給，還有包括誤餐費，這些都有，當然我們希望短期裡面，我們所有的弟兄，希望剩下的1,122戶趕快復電之外，這個是我們唯一的心念，但是以經濟部跟台電公司的立場而言，我們會對於我們所有的國營事業，特別是台電公司現在暴露在外面搶修的員工，如何照委員的建議給他更優渥的這個部分，我們回去……"],["劉委員建國：丹娜絲的專案獎金可以對台電的同仁鼓勵、對外包的工作人員鼓勵嗎？可以嗎？"],["賴次長建信：這個我們來研究，好不好？"],["劉委員建國：拜託！"],["賴次長建信：好。"],["劉委員建國：拜託儘快，好不好？可以？謝謝次長。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國召委、謝謝次長。","接續請陳冠廷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":238,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-20","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王育敏","廖偉翔","涂權吉","陳菁徽","黃秀芳","林淑芬","王正旭","黃國昌","楊曜","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳冠廷","陳瑩","盧縣一","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":145,"meetingDate":["2025-07-16"],"gazette_id":"1146701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部部長、海洋委員會、農業部、內政部、國防部、金融監督管理委員會針\n對「光電設施對環境影響情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146701_00003"}}}