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\"text\": \"好 那我先問一個問題抽血這件事情是不是要依市人員來執行是不是就簡單的問這個問題在醫療機構提供醫療服務的時候一定要依市人員這件事情是無用質疑那抽血可以在非醫療機構執行嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 84.898, \"end\": 85.018, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 85.018, \"end\": 85.378, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 85.378, \"end\": 85.519, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 85.519, \"end\": 85.899, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 85.899, \"end\": 87.74, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"抽\", \"start\": 87.74, \"end\": 88.181, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"血\", \"start\": 88.181, \"end\": 88.541, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 88.541, \"end\": 88.741, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 88.741, \"end\": 88.861, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 88.861, \"end\": 89.422, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 89.422, \"end\": 89.582, \"score\": 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724.526, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 724.526, \"end\": 724.646, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 724.646, \"end\": 724.706, \"score\": 0.66}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 724.706, \"end\": 724.726, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,421 --> 00:00:08,482\n謝謝主席謝謝官員也請邱部長謝謝委員長部長早部長這兩天沸沸揚揚的新聞就是師大這一群很可憐的女足球員學生非自願被教練要求成為實驗對象連續14天配合抽血有時候一天抽三次從早上起床一直抽到晚上\n\n2\n00:00:31,309 --> 00:00:56,458\n那這邊呢昨天我也感到非常的不解因為林靜怡次長她評論說她對於這件事件是很震驚啊她非常想知道說這麼多學生的血液檢體到哪裡去了是學校在處理血液檢體嗎或者是和醫療相關的機構做合作部長你是不是也一樣覺得對這件事很不解那我想知道衛福部過了這麼久有哪一些新的資訊呢\n\n3\n00:00:58,764 --> 00:01:24,318\n好,謝謝委員的垂行我們聽到這樣的一個訊息的確非常難過說實在也很生氣因為學生的授教權、學生的人權的維護是完全沒有模糊的空間所以我們非常願意來協助實業主管機關你一定要去整個了解現在地檢署也去做司法調查整個了解以後該究責的我們要研辦\n\n4\n00:01:24,898 --> 00:01:43,893\n好那我先問一個問題抽血這件事情是不是要依市人員來執行是不是就簡單的問這個問題在醫療機構提供醫療服務的時候一定要依市人員這件事情是無用質疑那抽血可以在非醫療機構執行嗎\n\n5\n00:01:45,954 --> 00:02:02,026\n從前像我們的居家醫療其實有有這樣子的一個但是是不是醫事人員所以我覺得這件事情的重點會回到了IRB到底通過什麼然後這個這個PI到底有沒有按照IRB的這個計劃來執行因為這裡面的問題到底我覺得在\n\n6\n00:02:06,750 --> 00:02:22,125\n以溫府部的立場我們是人體人體研究法主管機關我們是希望要求所有的事業目的主管機關按照法尊來做處理如果他對法尊不清楚的時候我們其實是做協同所以才會是在這個事件裡面\n\n7\n00:02:23,166 --> 00:02:48,534\n整個教育部的IRB的訪查的這個機制到底有沒有什麼問題這是我們關注的第二件事情是IRB裡面特別是台師大的這個IRB通過的計畫到底是什麼然後目前因為整個教育部的案子還在進行當中並沒有一個完整的報告跟我們講所以這個地方我們其實會再跟教育部做合作把它做釐清因為這個制度的檢討才能夠預防再發我真的是問一個很單純的問題第一\n\n8\n00:02:53,295 --> 00:03:18,572\n抽血到底需不需要醫事人員執行就這麼簡單部長部長你回答一下原則上醫法令是應該要這樣對阿依照醫療法就是應該要醫事人員執行嘛所以你可以介入阿你是可以介入的阿我給你看這個就是學生我給你看我們要瞭解他整個過程嘛如果的確有發生這種事情當然我們就要究責\n\n9\n00:03:19,332 --> 00:03:42,851\n好我先給你看這個是學校內部這個霸凌的調查報告他講說他給誰抽血沒有醫護執照技術不好再換成誰抽血還有一些學生他是直接把他整個被抽血的過程都錄影下來放到Threads還有把他自己拿著他的血去做離心也放到Threads他把這些事都公開因為他們現在拿到畢業證書了他不再那麼害怕了他願意站出來了\n\n10\n00:03:47,855 --> 00:04:02,380\n這個你就可以介入啊如果我是部長我直接去找這些學生問說誰幫你抽過血你們醫事人員的名單就在你們的手上欸你不是最快就可以知道這些人到底有沒有符合醫事人員的資格嗎\n\n11\n00:04:03,926 --> 00:04:21,324\n你還需要等教育部的調查報告教育部告訴你誰幫誰抽過血然後再來跟你比對你需要這樣子嗎你衛福部跟教育部一樣大一樣大你本來就可以主動介入調查不是嗎違反醫事法醫療法是你們執行的業務欸對嗎\n\n12\n00:04:27,191 --> 00:04:40,566\n如果以人體研究法來講,當然事業主管機關要去做,他的權責是監督、調查還有處罰,還有去懲處但是違反醫療法,違反醫事法令當然我們一定會趕快去了解\n\n13\n00:04:46,252 --> 00:04:59,522\n如果真的有違反醫療相關的法案我們是整個究責啦因為這個有時候跟老師跟PI有關係嘛對不對但是很單純的他被誰抽血這個人是不是醫師人員對你來說應該很簡單整個系統來究責啊\n\n14\n00:05:05,126 --> 00:05:26,216\n我們不能說只有突破某一點因為這個的確我們要確定他抽血的每一個去抽血這個動作的人是誰我們去調查清楚才有辦法去做然後他的原因整個他的來由是怎麼樣整個了解以後我們要知道他的輕重才能夠給予最適當的懲處這樣子\n\n15\n00:05:29,778 --> 00:05:37,954\n好我是覺得我們現在已經跟教育部合作一起來努力你已經接觸到這些受害者了嗎\n\n16\n00:05:38,919 --> 00:06:02,841\n台北我們先尊重世界主管機關他們教育部還在調查所以你在等他們給你名單意思是這樣子我們有含請教育部就是針對我們以涉及可能涉及人體研究法裡面哪幾條的問題我們有含請他們也能夠去調查部長我給你一個建議其實你就是醫療法的主管機關你也可以禁訴執法就看你要不要做而已\n\n17\n00:06:03,682 --> 00:06:11,054\n我還是這樣子介意你啦你其實很快找到這些人問到誰幫他們抽血你很快就可以知道他們是不是醫事人員了\n\n18\n00:06:12,714 --> 00:06:33,257\n我覺得在人體研究法裡面有一個很重要的精神第一個救責PI第二件事情受試者保護所以在受試者保護的情況下面的時候怎麼去approach才不會造成這些受試者的二次傷害這件事情所以我們在這個地方我覺得還是會拉到這個事件的本質第一個\n\n19\n00:06:33,757 --> 00:07:00,488\n校園霸凌案疑似第二件事情我們的人體研究法的違法的部分要就責PI我覺得這是這這件事情應該要去處理的至於其他的細節的部分的話同步進行的是我們醫療機構是不是這一個教育部這邊的協同的子計畫這個部分這個是我們可以目前馬上做的我對你們很有信心我很相信你們可以兼顧他們的隱私跟保護\n\n20\n00:07:01,448 --> 00:07:21,167\n但是也可以做到你們執行醫療法違規的這些糾察好嗎好再來部長這是很多醫師關心的也是許多基層診所現在給我一些他們的報表去年我們一起簽下了一個主決議這個主決議你是說6月30號以前你要達成健保點值0.95\n\n21\n00:07:22,668 --> 00:07:39,047\n像前幾個禮拜我們一起出席活動您接受記者訪問你說非常的有信心那最近這些基層的醫療告訴我說去年第四季他們的點值大概是0.8然後你們是不是這週會開始幫他們補到0.9是不是有這件事可不可以給我們一個時間\n\n22\n00:07:40,809 --> 00:08:01,287\n這個補兌已經在進行這個禮拜開始在撥款這個禮拜在撥款那今年第一季他們是有到0.9那第二季也就是您曾經給予的承諾6月30號以前可不可以到0.95這件事情您認為做得到還是會跳票\n\n23\n00:08:01,687 --> 00:08:16,242\n跟委員報告一下第一劑,因為第二劑還沒有出來第一劑我們的一個所有的不管是醫院、基層、中醫、牙醫所有的部門六個區全部都在0.95%以上,只有台北區是0.94%\n\n24\n00:08:22,288 --> 00:08:30,455\n我這個表上面你在講第二劑還是第一劑整個西醫基層是0.946醫院是0.95快要0.9所以這兩個平均起來在第一劑西醫我們在講中醫跟亞醫就已經到達0.95了那第二劑應該是差不多這樣的水準\n\n25\n00:08:41,124 --> 00:09:08,366\n第二季你現在應該有數據了吧還沒出來我們在這邊是幫他們說說話因為第二季你才開始個別總額的這些限制所以我們希望你不是只透過不管是這個核酸或者是斷頭或者是個別總額的限制去讓他們達到0.95我們上禮拜有三讀通過一個特別條例請問如果你有實際上\n\n26\n00:09:09,808 --> 00:09:15,329\n有這些配置的話你會不會把它拿來補建保點值你要怎麼做你的安排\n\n27\n00:09:16,471 --> 00:09:42,806\n據瞭解所有的一個黨團提出來都很關心到我們醫藥的韌性醫藥的韌性所以這個部分的確是應該是我們面對國際間的一個挑戰裡面的確應該是先補醫藥的韌性那當然因為我們現在的在今年的4月行政會通過就是只要補的在安全準備基金只要是補進來的都可以再用在我們政府覺得需要所以將來\n\n28\n00:09:44,187 --> 00:10:07,887\n如果真的是點子到達不夠的時候當然是可以補啊這個已經明文已經規定了但是我們現在點子跟委員報告一下其實我現在到在議界去看真的大家都覺得相當的欣慰啦已經到達跟以前差很多啦但因為關稅即將來臨嘛我們也擔心原物料會變貴還有川普給予一個這個什麼最惠國要價的政策主席我時間到了嗎\n\n29\n00:10:13,831 --> 00:10:14,632\n好部長問你最後一個問題\n\n30\n00:10:38,848 --> 00:10:41,410\n我想我們衛福部是一個國家的部門政府部門我們所有的政府部門就要創造人民\n\n31\n00:11:08,117 --> 00:11:26,173\n福國利民的一個各種措施嘛所以只要對政府的部門是很負責任的不是短暫的是長期的一個一個能夠穩定的在各方面的保護國家的安全我剛剛已經有講這兩個附帶決議的內容啦你認為有沒有符合你剛剛講的這些條件嗎你剛剛說福國利民\n\n32\n00:11:31,497 --> 00:11:52,435\n什麼東西的當然以單單某一個方面來講當然我們如果有某一個方面某一項目他對那一個部分的政策當然會有幫助但是是不是會影響到其他的一個國家的整體的發展這個也是政府部門必須要無私的\n\n33\n00:11:53,315 --> 00:12:04,726\n來考慮到以國家整體的發展來處理所以我們非常謹慎的來遵照我們所以你的意思是說你還在評估你不曉得你有沒有辦法落實這兩個附帶決議我們一切都會依法辦理我們會依法辦理謝謝主席謝謝部長謝謝署長附帶決議是我提的好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5421\t8482\t謝謝主席 謝謝官員 也請邱部長 謝謝委員長部長早部長這兩天沸沸揚揚的新聞就是師大這一群很可憐的女足球員學生非自願被教練要求成為實驗對象連續14天配合抽血有時候一天抽三次從早上起床一直抽到晚上\n31309\t56458\t那這邊呢昨天我也感到非常的不解因為林靜怡次長她評論說她對於這件事件是很震驚啊她非常想知道說這麼多學生的血液檢體到哪裡去了是學校在處理血液檢體嗎或者是和醫療相關的機構做合作部長你是不是也一樣覺得對這件事很不解那我想知道衛福部過了這麼久有哪一些新的資訊呢\n58764\t84318\t好,謝謝委員的垂行我們聽到這樣的一個訊息的確非常難過說實在也很生氣因為學生的授教權、學生的人權的維護是完全沒有模糊的空間所以我們非常願意來協助實業主管機關你一定要去整個了解現在地檢署也去做司法調查整個了解以後該究責的我們要研辦\n84898\t103893\t好 那我先問一個問題抽血這件事情是不是要依市人員來執行是不是就簡單的問這個問題在醫療機構提供醫療服務的時候一定要依市人員這件事情是無用質疑那抽血可以在非醫療機構執行嗎\n105954\t122026\t從前像我們的居家醫療其實有有這樣子的一個但是是不是醫事人員所以我覺得這件事情的重點會回到了IRB到底通過什麼然後這個這個PI到底有沒有按照IRB的這個計劃來執行因為這裡面的問題到底我覺得在\n126750\t142125\t以溫府部的立場我們是人體人體研究法主管機關我們是希望要求所有的事業目的主管機關按照法尊來做處理如果他對法尊不清楚的時候我們其實是做協同所以才會是在這個事件裡面\n143166\t168534\t整個教育部的IRB的訪查的這個機制到底有沒有什麼問題這是我們關注的第二件事情是IRB裡面特別是台師大的這個IRB通過的計畫到底是什麼然後目前因為整個教育部的案子還在進行當中並沒有一個完整的報告跟我們講所以這個地方我們其實會再跟教育部做合作把它做釐清因為這個制度的檢討才能夠預防再發我真的是問一個很單純的問題第一\n173295\t198572\t抽血到底需不需要醫事人員執行就這麼簡單 部長 部長你回答一下原則上醫法令是應該要這樣對阿 依照醫療法就是應該要醫事人員執行嘛所以你可以介入阿 你是可以介入的阿我給你看這個就是學生 我給你看我們要瞭解他整個過程嘛如果的確有發生這種事情當然我們就要究責\n199332\t222851\t好我先給你看這個是學校內部這個霸凌的調查報告他講說他給誰抽血沒有醫護執照技術不好再換成誰抽血還有一些學生他是直接把他整個被抽血的過程都錄影下來放到Threads還有把他自己拿著他的血去做離心也放到Threads他把這些事都公開因為他們現在拿到畢業證書了他不再那麼害怕了他願意站出來了\n227855\t242380\t這個你就可以介入啊 如果我是部長我直接去找這些學生問說誰幫你抽過血你們醫事人員的名單就在你們的手上欸你不是最快就可以知道這些人到底有沒有符合醫事人員的資格嗎\n243926\t261324\t你還需要等教育部的調查報告教育部告訴你誰幫誰抽過血然後再來跟你比對你需要這樣子嗎你衛福部跟教育部一樣大一樣大你本來就可以主動介入調查不是嗎違反醫事法醫療法是你們執行的業務欸對嗎\n267191\t280566\t如果以人體研究法來講,當然事業主管機關要去做,他的權責是監督、調查還有處罰,還有去懲處但是違反醫療法,違反醫事法令當然我們一定會趕快去了解\n286252\t299522\t如果真的有違反醫療相關的法案我們是整個究責啦因為這個有時候跟老師跟PI有關係嘛對不對但是很單純的他被誰抽血這個人是不是醫師人員對你來說應該很簡單整個系統來究責啊\n305126\t326216\t我們不能說只有突破某一點因為這個的確我們要確定他抽血的每一個去抽血這個動作的人是誰我們去調查清楚才有辦法去做然後他的原因整個他的來由是怎麼樣整個了解以後我們要知道他的輕重才能夠給予最適當的懲處這樣子\n329778\t337954\t好 我是覺得我們現在已經跟教育部合作一起來努力你已經接觸到這些受害者了嗎\n338919\t362841\t台北我們先尊重世界主管機關他們教育部還在調查所以你在等他們給你名單意思是這樣子我們有含請教育部就是針對我們以涉及可能涉及人體研究法裡面哪幾條的問題我們有含請他們也能夠去調查部長我給你一個建議其實你就是醫療法的主管機關你也可以禁訴執法就看你要不要做而已\n363682\t371054\t我還是這樣子介意你啦你其實很快找到這些人問到誰幫他們抽血你很快就可以知道他們是不是醫事人員了\n372714\t393257\t我覺得在人體研究法裡面有一個很重要的精神第一個救責PI第二件事情受試者保護所以在受試者保護的情況下面的時候怎麼去approach才不會造成這些受試者的二次傷害這件事情所以我們在這個地方我覺得還是會拉到這個事件的本質第一個\n393757\t420488\t校園霸凌案疑似第二件事情我們的人體研究法的違法的部分要就責PI我覺得這是這這件事情應該要去處理的至於其他的細節的部分的話同步進行的是我們醫療機構是不是這一個教育部這邊的協同的子計畫這個部分這個是我們可以目前馬上做的我對你們很有信心我很相信你們可以兼顧他們的隱私跟保護\n421448\t441167\t但是也可以做到你們執行醫療法違規的這些糾察好嗎好再來部長這是很多醫師關心的也是許多基層診所現在給我一些他們的報表去年我們一起簽下了一個主決議這個主決議你是說6月30號以前你要達成健保點值0.95\n442668\t459047\t像前幾個禮拜我們一起出席活動您接受記者訪問你說非常的有信心那最近這些基層的醫療告訴我說去年第四季他們的點值大概是0.8然後你們是不是這週會開始幫他們補到0.9是不是有這件事可不可以給我們一個時間\n460809\t481287\t這個補兌已經在進行這個禮拜開始在撥款這個禮拜在撥款那今年第一季他們是有到0.9那第二季也就是您曾經給予的承諾6月30號以前可不可以到0.95這件事情您認為做得到還是會跳票\n481687\t496242\t跟委員報告一下第一劑,因為第二劑還沒有出來第一劑我們的一個所有的不管是醫院、基層、中醫、牙醫所有的部門六個區全部都在0.95%以上,只有台北區是0.94%\n502288\t510455\t我這個表上面你在講第二劑還是第一劑整個西醫基層是0.946醫院是0.95快要0.9所以這兩個平均起來在第一劑西醫我們在講中醫跟亞醫就已經到達0.95了那第二劑應該是差不多這樣的水準\n521124\t548366\t第二季你現在應該有數據了吧還沒出來我們在這邊是幫他們說說話因為第二季你才開始個別總額的這些限制所以我們希望你不是只透過不管是這個核酸或者是斷頭或者是個別總額的限制去讓他們達到0.95我們上禮拜有三讀通過一個特別條例請問如果你有實際上\n549808\t555329\t有這些配置的話你會不會把它拿來補建保點值你要怎麼做你的安排\n556471\t582806\t據瞭解所有的一個黨團提出來都很關心到我們醫藥的韌性醫藥的韌性所以這個部分的確是應該是我們面對國際間的一個挑戰裡面的確應該是先補醫藥的韌性那當然因為我們現在的在今年的4月行政會通過就是只要補的在安全準備基金只要是補進來的都可以再用在我們政府覺得需要所以將來\n584187\t607887\t如果真的是點子到達不夠的時候當然是可以補啊這個已經明文已經規定了但是我們現在點子跟委員報告一下其實我現在到在議界去看真的大家都覺得相當的欣慰啦已經到達跟以前差很多啦但因為關稅即將來臨嘛我們也擔心原物料會變貴還有川普給予一個這個什麼最惠國要價的政策主席我時間到了嗎\n613831\t614632\t好部長問你最後一個問題\n638848\t641410\t我想我們衛福部是一個國家的部門政府部門我們所有的政府部門就要創造人民\n668117\t686173\t福國利民的一個各種措施嘛所以只要對政府的部門是很負責任的不是短暫的是長期的一個一個能夠穩定的在各方面的保護國家的安全我剛剛已經有講這兩個附帶決議的內容啦你認為有沒有符合你剛剛講的這些條件嗎你剛剛說福國利民\n691497\t712435\t什麼東西的當然以單單某一個方面來講當然我們如果有某一個方面某一項目他對那一個部分的政策當然會有幫助但是是不是會影響到其他的一個國家的整體的發展這個也是政府部門必須要無私的\n713315\t724726\t來考慮到以國家整體的發展來處理所以我們非常謹慎的來遵照我們所以你的意思是說你還在評估你不曉得你有沒有辦法落實這兩個附帶決議我們一切都會依法辦理我們會依法辦理謝謝主席謝謝部長 謝謝署長附帶決議是我提的好 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 謝謝官員 也請邱部長 謝謝委員長部長早部長這兩天沸沸揚揚的新聞就是師大這一群很可憐的女足球員學生非自願被教練要求成為實驗對象連續14天配合抽血有時候一天抽三次從早上起床一直抽到晚上\n那這邊呢昨天我也感到非常的不解因為林靜怡次長她評論說她對於這件事件是很震驚啊她非常想知道說這麼多學生的血液檢體到哪裡去了是學校在處理血液檢體嗎或者是和醫療相關的機構做合作部長你是不是也一樣覺得對這件事很不解那我想知道衛福部過了這麼久有哪一些新的資訊呢\n好,謝謝委員的垂行我們聽到這樣的一個訊息的確非常難過說實在也很生氣因為學生的授教權、學生的人權的維護是完全沒有模糊的空間所以我們非常願意來協助實業主管機關你一定要去整個了解現在地檢署也去做司法調查整個了解以後該究責的我們要研辦\n好 那我先問一個問題抽血這件事情是不是要依市人員來執行是不是就簡單的問這個問題在醫療機構提供醫療服務的時候一定要依市人員這件事情是無用質疑那抽血可以在非醫療機構執行嗎\n從前像我們的居家醫療其實有有這樣子的一個但是是不是醫事人員所以我覺得這件事情的重點會回到了IRB到底通過什麼然後這個這個PI到底有沒有按照IRB的這個計劃來執行因為這裡面的問題到底我覺得在\n以溫府部的立場我們是人體人體研究法主管機關我們是希望要求所有的事業目的主管機關按照法尊來做處理如果他對法尊不清楚的時候我們其實是做協同所以才會是在這個事件裡面\n整個教育部的IRB的訪查的這個機制到底有沒有什麼問題這是我們關注的第二件事情是IRB裡面特別是台師大的這個IRB通過的計畫到底是什麼然後目前因為整個教育部的案子還在進行當中並沒有一個完整的報告跟我們講所以這個地方我們其實會再跟教育部做合作把它做釐清因為這個制度的檢討才能夠預防再發我真的是問一個很單純的問題第一\n抽血到底需不需要醫事人員執行就這麼簡單 部長 部長你回答一下原則上醫法令是應該要這樣對阿 依照醫療法就是應該要醫事人員執行嘛所以你可以介入阿 你是可以介入的阿我給你看這個就是學生 我給你看我們要瞭解他整個過程嘛如果的確有發生這種事情當然我們就要究責\n好我先給你看這個是學校內部這個霸凌的調查報告他講說他給誰抽血沒有醫護執照技術不好再換成誰抽血還有一些學生他是直接把他整個被抽血的過程都錄影下來放到Threads還有把他自己拿著他的血去做離心也放到Threads他把這些事都公開因為他們現在拿到畢業證書了他不再那麼害怕了他願意站出來了\n這個你就可以介入啊 如果我是部長我直接去找這些學生問說誰幫你抽過血你們醫事人員的名單就在你們的手上欸你不是最快就可以知道這些人到底有沒有符合醫事人員的資格嗎\n你還需要等教育部的調查報告教育部告訴你誰幫誰抽過血然後再來跟你比對你需要這樣子嗎你衛福部跟教育部一樣大一樣大你本來就可以主動介入調查不是嗎違反醫事法醫療法是你們執行的業務欸對嗎\n如果以人體研究法來講,當然事業主管機關要去做,他的權責是監督、調查還有處罰,還有去懲處但是違反醫療法,違反醫事法令當然我們一定會趕快去了解\n如果真的有違反醫療相關的法案我們是整個究責啦因為這個有時候跟老師跟PI有關係嘛對不對但是很單純的他被誰抽血這個人是不是醫師人員對你來說應該很簡單整個系統來究責啊\n我們不能說只有突破某一點因為這個的確我們要確定他抽血的每一個去抽血這個動作的人是誰我們去調查清楚才有辦法去做然後他的原因整個他的來由是怎麼樣整個了解以後我們要知道他的輕重才能夠給予最適當的懲處這樣子\n好 我是覺得我們現在已經跟教育部合作一起來努力你已經接觸到這些受害者了嗎\n台北我們先尊重世界主管機關他們教育部還在調查所以你在等他們給你名單意思是這樣子我們有含請教育部就是針對我們以涉及可能涉及人體研究法裡面哪幾條的問題我們有含請他們也能夠去調查部長我給你一個建議其實你就是醫療法的主管機關你也可以禁訴執法就看你要不要做而已\n我還是這樣子介意你啦你其實很快找到這些人問到誰幫他們抽血你很快就可以知道他們是不是醫事人員了\n我覺得在人體研究法裡面有一個很重要的精神第一個救責PI第二件事情受試者保護所以在受試者保護的情況下面的時候怎麼去approach才不會造成這些受試者的二次傷害這件事情所以我們在這個地方我覺得還是會拉到這個事件的本質第一個\n校園霸凌案疑似第二件事情我們的人體研究法的違法的部分要就責PI我覺得這是這這件事情應該要去處理的至於其他的細節的部分的話同步進行的是我們醫療機構是不是這一個教育部這邊的協同的子計畫這個部分這個是我們可以目前馬上做的我對你們很有信心我很相信你們可以兼顧他們的隱私跟保護\n但是也可以做到你們執行醫療法違規的這些糾察好嗎好再來部長這是很多醫師關心的也是許多基層診所現在給我一些他們的報表去年我們一起簽下了一個主決議這個主決議你是說6月30號以前你要達成健保點值0.95\n像前幾個禮拜我們一起出席活動您接受記者訪問你說非常的有信心那最近這些基層的醫療告訴我說去年第四季他們的點值大概是0.8然後你們是不是這週會開始幫他們補到0.9是不是有這件事可不可以給我們一個時間\n這個補兌已經在進行這個禮拜開始在撥款這個禮拜在撥款那今年第一季他們是有到0.9那第二季也就是您曾經給予的承諾6月30號以前可不可以到0.95這件事情您認為做得到還是會跳票\n跟委員報告一下第一劑,因為第二劑還沒有出來第一劑我們的一個所有的不管是醫院、基層、中醫、牙醫所有的部門六個區全部都在0.95%以上,只有台北區是0.94%\n我這個表上面你在講第二劑還是第一劑整個西醫基層是0.946醫院是0.95快要0.9所以這兩個平均起來在第一劑西醫我們在講中醫跟亞醫就已經到達0.95了那第二劑應該是差不多這樣的水準\n第二季你現在應該有數據了吧還沒出來我們在這邊是幫他們說說話因為第二季你才開始個別總額的這些限制所以我們希望你不是只透過不管是這個核酸或者是斷頭或者是個別總額的限制去讓他們達到0.95我們上禮拜有三讀通過一個特別條例請問如果你有實際上\n有這些配置的話你會不會把它拿來補建保點值你要怎麼做你的安排\n據瞭解所有的一個黨團提出來都很關心到我們醫藥的韌性醫藥的韌性所以這個部分的確是應該是我們面對國際間的一個挑戰裡面的確應該是先補醫藥的韌性那當然因為我們現在的在今年的4月行政會通過就是只要補的在安全準備基金只要是補進來的都可以再用在我們政府覺得需要所以將來\n如果真的是點子到達不夠的時候當然是可以補啊這個已經明文已經規定了但是我們現在點子跟委員報告一下其實我現在到在議界去看真的大家都覺得相當的欣慰啦已經到達跟以前差很多啦但因為關稅即將來臨嘛我們也擔心原物料會變貴還有川普給予一個這個什麼最惠國要價的政策主席我時間到了嗎\n好部長問你最後一個問題\n我想我們衛福部是一個國家的部門政府部門我們所有的政府部門就要創造人民\n福國利民的一個各種措施嘛所以只要對政府的部門是很負責任的不是短暫的是長期的一個一個能夠穩定的在各方面的保護國家的安全我剛剛已經有講這兩個附帶決議的內容啦你認為有沒有符合你剛剛講的這些條件嗎你剛剛說福國利民\n什麼東西的當然以單單某一個方面來講當然我們如果有某一個方面某一項目他對那一個部分的政策當然會有幫助但是是不是會影響到其他的一個國家的整體的發展這個也是政府部門必須要無私的\n來考慮到以國家整體的發展來處理所以我們非常謹慎的來遵照我們所以你的意思是說你還在評估你不曉得你有沒有辦法落實這兩個附帶決議我們一切都會依法辦理我們會依法辦理謝謝主席謝謝部長 謝謝署長附帶決議是我提的好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.421 --> 00:08.482\n謝謝主席謝謝官員也請邱部長謝謝委員長部長早部長這兩天沸沸揚揚的新聞就是師大這一群很可憐的女足球員學生非自願被教練要求成為實驗對象連續14天配合抽血有時候一天抽三次從早上起床一直抽到晚上\n\n00:31.309 --> 00:56.458\n那這邊呢昨天我也感到非常的不解因為林靜怡次長她評論說她對於這件事件是很震驚啊她非常想知道說這麼多學生的血液檢體到哪裡去了是學校在處理血液檢體嗎或者是和醫療相關的機構做合作部長你是不是也一樣覺得對這件事很不解那我想知道衛福部過了這麼久有哪一些新的資訊呢\n\n00:58.764 --> 01:24.318\n好,謝謝委員的垂行我們聽到這樣的一個訊息的確非常難過說實在也很生氣因為學生的授教權、學生的人權的維護是完全沒有模糊的空間所以我們非常願意來協助實業主管機關你一定要去整個了解現在地檢署也去做司法調查整個了解以後該究責的我們要研辦\n\n01:24.898 --> 01:43.893\n好那我先問一個問題抽血這件事情是不是要依市人員來執行是不是就簡單的問這個問題在醫療機構提供醫療服務的時候一定要依市人員這件事情是無用質疑那抽血可以在非醫療機構執行嗎\n\n01:45.954 --> 02:02.026\n從前像我們的居家醫療其實有有這樣子的一個但是是不是醫事人員所以我覺得這件事情的重點會回到了IRB到底通過什麼然後這個這個PI到底有沒有按照IRB的這個計劃來執行因為這裡面的問題到底我覺得在\n\n02:06.750 --> 02:22.125\n以溫府部的立場我們是人體人體研究法主管機關我們是希望要求所有的事業目的主管機關按照法尊來做處理如果他對法尊不清楚的時候我們其實是做協同所以才會是在這個事件裡面\n\n02:23.166 --> 02:48.534\n整個教育部的IRB的訪查的這個機制到底有沒有什麼問題這是我們關注的第二件事情是IRB裡面特別是台師大的這個IRB通過的計畫到底是什麼然後目前因為整個教育部的案子還在進行當中並沒有一個完整的報告跟我們講所以這個地方我們其實會再跟教育部做合作把它做釐清因為這個制度的檢討才能夠預防再發我真的是問一個很單純的問題第一\n\n02:53.295 --> 03:18.572\n抽血到底需不需要醫事人員執行就這麼簡單部長部長你回答一下原則上醫法令是應該要這樣對阿依照醫療法就是應該要醫事人員執行嘛所以你可以介入阿你是可以介入的阿我給你看這個就是學生我給你看我們要瞭解他整個過程嘛如果的確有發生這種事情當然我們就要究責\n\n03:19.332 --> 03:42.851\n好我先給你看這個是學校內部這個霸凌的調查報告他講說他給誰抽血沒有醫護執照技術不好再換成誰抽血還有一些學生他是直接把他整個被抽血的過程都錄影下來放到Threads還有把他自己拿著他的血去做離心也放到Threads他把這些事都公開因為他們現在拿到畢業證書了他不再那麼害怕了他願意站出來了\n\n03:47.855 --> 04:02.380\n這個你就可以介入啊如果我是部長我直接去找這些學生問說誰幫你抽過血你們醫事人員的名單就在你們的手上欸你不是最快就可以知道這些人到底有沒有符合醫事人員的資格嗎\n\n04:03.926 --> 04:21.324\n你還需要等教育部的調查報告教育部告訴你誰幫誰抽過血然後再來跟你比對你需要這樣子嗎你衛福部跟教育部一樣大一樣大你本來就可以主動介入調查不是嗎違反醫事法醫療法是你們執行的業務欸對嗎\n\n04:27.191 --> 04:40.566\n如果以人體研究法來講,當然事業主管機關要去做,他的權責是監督、調查還有處罰,還有去懲處但是違反醫療法,違反醫事法令當然我們一定會趕快去了解\n\n04:46.252 --> 04:59.522\n如果真的有違反醫療相關的法案我們是整個究責啦因為這個有時候跟老師跟PI有關係嘛對不對但是很單純的他被誰抽血這個人是不是醫師人員對你來說應該很簡單整個系統來究責啊\n\n05:05.126 --> 05:26.216\n我們不能說只有突破某一點因為這個的確我們要確定他抽血的每一個去抽血這個動作的人是誰我們去調查清楚才有辦法去做然後他的原因整個他的來由是怎麼樣整個了解以後我們要知道他的輕重才能夠給予最適當的懲處這樣子\n\n05:29.778 --> 05:37.954\n好我是覺得我們現在已經跟教育部合作一起來努力你已經接觸到這些受害者了嗎\n\n05:38.919 --> 06:02.841\n台北我們先尊重世界主管機關他們教育部還在調查所以你在等他們給你名單意思是這樣子我們有含請教育部就是針對我們以涉及可能涉及人體研究法裡面哪幾條的問題我們有含請他們也能夠去調查部長我給你一個建議其實你就是醫療法的主管機關你也可以禁訴執法就看你要不要做而已\n\n06:03.682 --> 06:11.054\n我還是這樣子介意你啦你其實很快找到這些人問到誰幫他們抽血你很快就可以知道他們是不是醫事人員了\n\n06:12.714 --> 06:33.257\n我覺得在人體研究法裡面有一個很重要的精神第一個救責PI第二件事情受試者保護所以在受試者保護的情況下面的時候怎麼去approach才不會造成這些受試者的二次傷害這件事情所以我們在這個地方我覺得還是會拉到這個事件的本質第一個\n\n06:33.757 --> 07:00.488\n校園霸凌案疑似第二件事情我們的人體研究法的違法的部分要就責PI我覺得這是這這件事情應該要去處理的至於其他的細節的部分的話同步進行的是我們醫療機構是不是這一個教育部這邊的協同的子計畫這個部分這個是我們可以目前馬上做的我對你們很有信心我很相信你們可以兼顧他們的隱私跟保護\n\n07:01.448 --> 07:21.167\n但是也可以做到你們執行醫療法違規的這些糾察好嗎好再來部長這是很多醫師關心的也是許多基層診所現在給我一些他們的報表去年我們一起簽下了一個主決議這個主決議你是說6月30號以前你要達成健保點值0.95\n\n07:22.668 --> 07:39.047\n像前幾個禮拜我們一起出席活動您接受記者訪問你說非常的有信心那最近這些基層的醫療告訴我說去年第四季他們的點值大概是0.8然後你們是不是這週會開始幫他們補到0.9是不是有這件事可不可以給我們一個時間\n\n07:40.809 --> 08:01.287\n這個補兌已經在進行這個禮拜開始在撥款這個禮拜在撥款那今年第一季他們是有到0.9那第二季也就是您曾經給予的承諾6月30號以前可不可以到0.95這件事情您認為做得到還是會跳票\n\n08:01.687 --> 08:16.242\n跟委員報告一下第一劑,因為第二劑還沒有出來第一劑我們的一個所有的不管是醫院、基層、中醫、牙醫所有的部門六個區全部都在0.95%以上,只有台北區是0.94%\n\n08:22.288 --> 08:30.455\n我這個表上面你在講第二劑還是第一劑整個西醫基層是0.946醫院是0.95快要0.9所以這兩個平均起來在第一劑西醫我們在講中醫跟亞醫就已經到達0.95了那第二劑應該是差不多這樣的水準\n\n08:41.124 --> 09:08.366\n第二季你現在應該有數據了吧還沒出來我們在這邊是幫他們說說話因為第二季你才開始個別總額的這些限制所以我們希望你不是只透過不管是這個核酸或者是斷頭或者是個別總額的限制去讓他們達到0.95我們上禮拜有三讀通過一個特別條例請問如果你有實際上\n\n09:09.808 --> 09:15.329\n有這些配置的話你會不會把它拿來補建保點值你要怎麼做你的安排\n\n09:16.471 --> 09:42.806\n據瞭解所有的一個黨團提出來都很關心到我們醫藥的韌性醫藥的韌性所以這個部分的確是應該是我們面對國際間的一個挑戰裡面的確應該是先補醫藥的韌性那當然因為我們現在的在今年的4月行政會通過就是只要補的在安全準備基金只要是補進來的都可以再用在我們政府覺得需要所以將來\n\n09:44.187 --> 10:07.887\n如果真的是點子到達不夠的時候當然是可以補啊這個已經明文已經規定了但是我們現在點子跟委員報告一下其實我現在到在議界去看真的大家都覺得相當的欣慰啦已經到達跟以前差很多啦但因為關稅即將來臨嘛我們也擔心原物料會變貴還有川普給予一個這個什麼最惠國要價的政策主席我時間到了嗎\n\n10:13.831 --> 10:14.632\n好部長問你最後一個問題\n\n10:38.848 --> 10:41.410\n我想我們衛福部是一個國家的部門政府部門我們所有的政府部門就要創造人民\n\n11:08.117 --> 11:26.173\n福國利民的一個各種措施嘛所以只要對政府的部門是很負責任的不是短暫的是長期的一個一個能夠穩定的在各方面的保護國家的安全我剛剛已經有講這兩個附帶決議的內容啦你認為有沒有符合你剛剛講的這些條件嗎你剛剛說福國利民\n\n11:31.497 --> 11:52.435\n什麼東西的當然以單單某一個方面來講當然我們如果有某一個方面某一項目他對那一個部分的政策當然會有幫助但是是不是會影響到其他的一個國家的整體的發展這個也是政府部門必須要無私的\n\n11:53.315 --> 12:04.726\n來考慮到以國家整體的發展來處理所以我們非常謹慎的來遵照我們所以你的意思是說你還在評估你不曉得你有沒有辦法落實這兩個附帶決議我們一切都會依法辦理我們會依法辦理謝謝主席謝謝部長謝謝署長附帶決議是我提的好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.421,"end":8.482,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝官員 也請邱部長 謝謝委員長部長早部長這兩天沸沸揚揚的新聞就是師大這一群很可憐的女足球員學生非自願被教練要求成為實驗對象連續14天配合抽血有時候一天抽三次從早上起床一直抽到晚上"},{"start":31.309,"end":56.458,"text":"那這邊呢昨天我也感到非常的不解因為林靜怡次長她評論說她對於這件事件是很震驚啊她非常想知道說這麼多學生的血液檢體到哪裡去了是學校在處理血液檢體嗎或者是和醫療相關的機構做合作部長你是不是也一樣覺得對這件事很不解那我想知道衛福部過了這麼久有哪一些新的資訊呢"},{"start":58.764,"end":84.318,"text":"好,謝謝委員的垂行我們聽到這樣的一個訊息的確非常難過說實在也很生氣因為學生的授教權、學生的人權的維護是完全沒有模糊的空間所以我們非常願意來協助實業主管機關你一定要去整個了解現在地檢署也去做司法調查整個了解以後該究責的我們要研辦"},{"start":84.898,"end":103.893,"text":"好 那我先問一個問題抽血這件事情是不是要依市人員來執行是不是就簡單的問這個問題在醫療機構提供醫療服務的時候一定要依市人員這件事情是無用質疑那抽血可以在非醫療機構執行嗎"},{"start":105.954,"end":122.026,"text":"從前像我們的居家醫療其實有有這樣子的一個但是是不是醫事人員所以我覺得這件事情的重點會回到了IRB到底通過什麼然後這個這個PI到底有沒有按照IRB的這個計劃來執行因為這裡面的問題到底我覺得在"},{"start":126.75,"end":142.125,"text":"以溫府部的立場我們是人體人體研究法主管機關我們是希望要求所有的事業目的主管機關按照法尊來做處理如果他對法尊不清楚的時候我們其實是做協同所以才會是在這個事件裡面"},{"start":143.166,"end":168.534,"text":"整個教育部的IRB的訪查的這個機制到底有沒有什麼問題這是我們關注的第二件事情是IRB裡面特別是台師大的這個IRB通過的計畫到底是什麼然後目前因為整個教育部的案子還在進行當中並沒有一個完整的報告跟我們講所以這個地方我們其實會再跟教育部做合作把它做釐清因為這個制度的檢討才能夠預防再發我真的是問一個很單純的問題第一"},{"start":173.295,"end":198.572,"text":"抽血到底需不需要醫事人員執行就這麼簡單 部長 部長你回答一下原則上醫法令是應該要這樣對阿 依照醫療法就是應該要醫事人員執行嘛所以你可以介入阿 你是可以介入的阿我給你看這個就是學生 我給你看我們要瞭解他整個過程嘛如果的確有發生這種事情當然我們就要究責"},{"start":199.332,"end":222.851,"text":"好我先給你看這個是學校內部這個霸凌的調查報告他講說他給誰抽血沒有醫護執照技術不好再換成誰抽血還有一些學生他是直接把他整個被抽血的過程都錄影下來放到Threads還有把他自己拿著他的血去做離心也放到Threads他把這些事都公開因為他們現在拿到畢業證書了他不再那麼害怕了他願意站出來了"},{"start":227.855,"end":242.38,"text":"這個你就可以介入啊 如果我是部長我直接去找這些學生問說誰幫你抽過血你們醫事人員的名單就在你們的手上欸你不是最快就可以知道這些人到底有沒有符合醫事人員的資格嗎"},{"start":243.926,"end":261.324,"text":"你還需要等教育部的調查報告教育部告訴你誰幫誰抽過血然後再來跟你比對你需要這樣子嗎你衛福部跟教育部一樣大一樣大你本來就可以主動介入調查不是嗎違反醫事法醫療法是你們執行的業務欸對嗎"},{"start":267.191,"end":280.566,"text":"如果以人體研究法來講,當然事業主管機關要去做,他的權責是監督、調查還有處罰,還有去懲處但是違反醫療法,違反醫事法令當然我們一定會趕快去了解"},{"start":286.252,"end":299.522,"text":"如果真的有違反醫療相關的法案我們是整個究責啦因為這個有時候跟老師跟PI有關係嘛對不對但是很單純的他被誰抽血這個人是不是醫師人員對你來說應該很簡單整個系統來究責啊"},{"start":305.126,"end":326.216,"text":"我們不能說只有突破某一點因為這個的確我們要確定他抽血的每一個去抽血這個動作的人是誰我們去調查清楚才有辦法去做然後他的原因整個他的來由是怎麼樣整個了解以後我們要知道他的輕重才能夠給予最適當的懲處這樣子"},{"start":329.778,"end":337.954,"text":"好 我是覺得我們現在已經跟教育部合作一起來努力你已經接觸到這些受害者了嗎"},{"start":338.919,"end":362.841,"text":"台北我們先尊重世界主管機關他們教育部還在調查所以你在等他們給你名單意思是這樣子我們有含請教育部就是針對我們以涉及可能涉及人體研究法裡面哪幾條的問題我們有含請他們也能夠去調查部長我給你一個建議其實你就是醫療法的主管機關你也可以禁訴執法就看你要不要做而已"},{"start":363.682,"end":371.054,"text":"我還是這樣子介意你啦你其實很快找到這些人問到誰幫他們抽血你很快就可以知道他們是不是醫事人員了"},{"start":372.714,"end":393.257,"text":"我覺得在人體研究法裡面有一個很重要的精神第一個救責PI第二件事情受試者保護所以在受試者保護的情況下面的時候怎麼去approach才不會造成這些受試者的二次傷害這件事情所以我們在這個地方我覺得還是會拉到這個事件的本質第一個"},{"start":393.757,"end":420.488,"text":"校園霸凌案疑似第二件事情我們的人體研究法的違法的部分要就責PI我覺得這是這這件事情應該要去處理的至於其他的細節的部分的話同步進行的是我們醫療機構是不是這一個教育部這邊的協同的子計畫這個部分這個是我們可以目前馬上做的我對你們很有信心我很相信你們可以兼顧他們的隱私跟保護"},{"start":421.448,"end":441.167,"text":"但是也可以做到你們執行醫療法違規的這些糾察好嗎好再來部長這是很多醫師關心的也是許多基層診所現在給我一些他們的報表去年我們一起簽下了一個主決議這個主決議你是說6月30號以前你要達成健保點值0.95"},{"start":442.668,"end":459.047,"text":"像前幾個禮拜我們一起出席活動您接受記者訪問你說非常的有信心那最近這些基層的醫療告訴我說去年第四季他們的點值大概是0.8然後你們是不是這週會開始幫他們補到0.9是不是有這件事可不可以給我們一個時間"},{"start":460.809,"end":481.287,"text":"這個補兌已經在進行這個禮拜開始在撥款這個禮拜在撥款那今年第一季他們是有到0.9那第二季也就是您曾經給予的承諾6月30號以前可不可以到0.95這件事情您認為做得到還是會跳票"},{"start":481.687,"end":496.242,"text":"跟委員報告一下第一劑,因為第二劑還沒有出來第一劑我們的一個所有的不管是醫院、基層、中醫、牙醫所有的部門六個區全部都在0.95%以上,只有台北區是0.94%"},{"start":502.288,"end":510.455,"text":"我這個表上面你在講第二劑還是第一劑整個西醫基層是0.946醫院是0.95快要0.9所以這兩個平均起來在第一劑西醫我們在講中醫跟亞醫就已經到達0.95了那第二劑應該是差不多這樣的水準"},{"start":521.124,"end":548.366,"text":"第二季你現在應該有數據了吧還沒出來我們在這邊是幫他們說說話因為第二季你才開始個別總額的這些限制所以我們希望你不是只透過不管是這個核酸或者是斷頭或者是個別總額的限制去讓他們達到0.95我們上禮拜有三讀通過一個特別條例請問如果你有實際上"},{"start":549.808,"end":555.329,"text":"有這些配置的話你會不會把它拿來補建保點值你要怎麼做你的安排"},{"start":556.471,"end":582.806,"text":"據瞭解所有的一個黨團提出來都很關心到我們醫藥的韌性醫藥的韌性所以這個部分的確是應該是我們面對國際間的一個挑戰裡面的確應該是先補醫藥的韌性那當然因為我們現在的在今年的4月行政會通過就是只要補的在安全準備基金只要是補進來的都可以再用在我們政府覺得需要所以將來"},{"start":584.187,"end":607.887,"text":"如果真的是點子到達不夠的時候當然是可以補啊這個已經明文已經規定了但是我們現在點子跟委員報告一下其實我現在到在議界去看真的大家都覺得相當的欣慰啦已經到達跟以前差很多啦但因為關稅即將來臨嘛我們也擔心原物料會變貴還有川普給予一個這個什麼最惠國要價的政策主席我時間到了嗎"},{"start":613.831,"end":614.632,"text":"好部長問你最後一個問題"},{"start":638.848,"end":641.41,"text":"我想我們衛福部是一個國家的部門政府部門我們所有的政府部門就要創造人民"},{"start":668.117,"end":686.173,"text":"福國利民的一個各種措施嘛所以只要對政府的部門是很負責任的不是短暫的是長期的一個一個能夠穩定的在各方面的保護國家的安全我剛剛已經有講這兩個附帶決議的內容啦你認為有沒有符合你剛剛講的這些條件嗎你剛剛說福國利民"},{"start":691.497,"end":712.435,"text":"什麼東西的當然以單單某一個方面來講當然我們如果有某一個方面某一項目他對那一個部分的政策當然會有幫助但是是不是會影響到其他的一個國家的整體的發展這個也是政府部門必須要無私的"},{"start":713.315,"end":724.726,"text":"來考慮到以國家整體的發展來處理所以我們非常謹慎的來遵照我們所以你的意思是說你還在評估你不曉得你有沒有辦法落實這兩個附帶決議我們一切都會依法辦理我們會依法辦理謝謝主席謝謝部長 謝謝署長附帶決議是我提的好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":286,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時32分）謝謝主席、謝謝官員，也請邱部長，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：委員早。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長早。部長，這兩天沸沸揚揚的新聞就是師大這一群很可憐的女足球員學生非自願被教練要求成為實驗對象，連續14天配合抽血，有時候一天抽3次，從早上起床一直抽到晚上。昨天我也感到非常的不解，因為林靜儀次長評論說，他對於這件事件很震驚，他非常想知道這麼多學生的血液檢體到哪裡去了，是學校在處理血液檢體嗎？或者是和醫療相關的機構合作？部長，你是不是也一樣對這件事很不解？過了這麼久的時間，我想知道衛福部有哪一些新的資訊呢？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的垂詢，我們聽到這樣的訊息的確非常難過，說實在也很生氣，因為學生受教權、學生人權的維護完全沒有模糊的空間，所以我們非常願意協助事業主管機關去整個了解……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以我問你們現在有什麼資訊？"],["邱部長泰源：現在地檢署也去做司法調查，整個了解以後，該究責的我們要嚴辦。"],["陳委員菁徽：我先問一個問題，抽血這件事情是不是要醫事人員來執行？我簡單問這個問題。"],["邱部長泰源：請司長回答一下。"],["劉司長越萍：在醫療機構提供醫療服務的時候一定要是醫事人員，這件事情是無庸置疑。"],["陳委員菁徽：那抽血可以在非醫療機構執行嗎？"],["劉司長越萍：像我們的居家醫療其實有這樣子的一個行為。"],["陳委員菁徽：但是不是醫事人員執行？"],["劉司長越萍：所以我覺得這件事情的重點會回到IRB到底通過什麼？然後這個PI到底有沒有按照IRB的計畫來執行？我覺得以衛福部的立場，我們是人體研究法的主管機關，我們希望、要求所有的事業目的主管機關按照法遵處理，如果他對法遵不清楚的時候，我們其實是做協同，所以在這個事件裡面，教育部的IRB訪查機制到底有沒有什麼問題，這是我們關注的。第二件事情是IRB裡面，特別是臺師大IRB通過的計畫到底是什麼？目前因為整個教育部的案子還在進行當中，並沒有一個完整的報告跟我們講，所以這個地方我們會再跟教育部合作，把它做釐清，因為制度的檢討才能夠預防再犯。"],["陳委員菁徽：我真的是問一個很單純的問題，第一，抽血到底需不需要醫事人員執行？就這麼簡單。部長，你回答一下。"],["邱部長泰源：原則上依法令是應該要這樣。"],["陳委員菁徽：對啊，依照醫療法就是應該要由醫事人員執行，所以你是可以介入的啊！我給你看這個，這是學生……"],["邱部長泰源：我們要了解整個過程，如果的確有發生這種事情，當然我們就要究責。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，我先給你看，這個是學校內部霸凌的調查報告，他說這給誰抽血、沒有醫護執照、技術不好再換成誰抽血；還有一些學生是直接把他整個被抽血的過程錄影下來放到Threads；還有他自己拿著血去做離心，把它放到Threads；他把這些事都公開，因為他們現在拿到畢業證書了，不再那麼害怕了，他們願意站出來了，所以你就可以介入啊！如果我是部長，我會直接去找這些學生問：誰幫你抽過血？醫事人員的名單就在你們的手上，你們不是最快就可以知道這些人到底有沒有符合醫事人員的資格嗎？還需要等教育部的調查報告？要由教育部告訴你，誰幫誰抽過血，然後再來跟你比對，你需要這樣子嗎？衛福部跟教育部一樣大，你本來就可以主動介入調查，不是嗎？違反醫療法是你們執行的業務，對嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：如果以人體研究法來講，當然事業主管機關的權責是監督、調查還有處罰、懲處，這個部分尊重……"],["陳委員菁徽：但是違反醫療法、違反醫事法令……"],["邱部長泰源：違反醫療法的部分，當然我們一定會趕快去了解，如果真的有違反醫療相關法令，我們是整個究責，因為這個有時候跟老師、跟PI有關係嘛，對不對？"],["陳委員菁徽：但是很單純的，他被誰抽血、這個人是不是醫事人員，對你來說應該很簡單啊！"],["邱部長泰源：我們要究責，要從整個系統來究責，不能只有突破某一點，因為這的確要確定每一個去做抽血這個動作的人是誰，我們調查清楚才有辦法做……"],["陳委員菁徽：那你要……"],["邱部長泰源：他的原因、緣由是怎麼樣，整個了解以後才知道他的輕重，才能夠給予最適當的懲處。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我是覺得，如果……"],["邱部長泰源：我們現在已經跟教育部合作，一起來努力。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，你已經接觸到這些受害者了嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：還沒有，我們先尊重事業主管機關，教育部還在調查。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你在等他們給你名單，意思是這樣子？"],["邱部長泰源：我們有函請教育部，針對可能涉及人體研究法哪幾條的問題，我們有函請他們調查。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，我給你一個建議，其實你就是醫療法的主管機關，你也可以儘速執法，就看你要不要做而已。我還是這樣子建議你，你其實可以很快找到這些人，並問到是誰幫他們抽血，你很快就可以知道他們是不是醫事人員了。"],["劉司長越萍：我覺得在人體研究法裡面有一個很重要的精神，第一個是究責PI；第二件事情是受試者保護，所以在站在受試者保護的情況下，怎麼去approach才不會造成這些受試者的二次傷害，在這個地方，我覺得還是會拉到這個事件的本質，第一個，疑似校園霸凌案；第二件事情，我們人體研究法違法的部分要究責PI，我覺得是這件事應該要去處理的。至於其他的細節，同步進行的是我們醫療機構是不是教育部協同的子計畫的成員，這個部分是我們目前可以馬上做的。"],["陳委員菁徽：我對你們很有信心，我很相信你們可以兼顧他們的隱私跟保護，但是也可以做到你們執行醫療法的違規的糾察，好嗎？","再來，部長，這是很多醫師關心的……"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：現在許多基層診所給我一些他們的報表，去年我們一起簽下了一個主決議，這個主決議是在6月30號以前要達成健保點值0.95，前幾個禮拜我們一起出席活動，您接受記者訪問說您非常有信心。最近基層的醫療告訴我，他們去年第四季的點值大概是0.8，你們是不是這週會開始幫他們補到0.9，是不是有這件事？可不可以給我們一個時間？"],["邱部長泰源：這個補助已經在進行了。"],["陳委員菁徽：這個禮拜開始在撥款？"],["邱部長泰源：已經在撥款了。"],["陳委員菁徽：這個禮拜開始撥款，那今年第一季……"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝大家的關心。"],["陳委員菁徽：今年第一季有到0.9；第二季，也就是您曾經給予的承諾，6月30號以前可不可以到0.95？這件事情你認為做得到，還是會跳票？"],["邱部長泰源：跟委員報告第一季的部分，因為第二季還沒有出來，第一季我們所有的醫院、基層、中醫、牙醫所有的部門，六個區全部都在0.95以上，只有臺北區是0.94……"],["陳委員菁徽：我的這個表上面……"],["邱部長泰源：西醫……"],["陳委員菁徽：你在講第二季還是第一季？"],["邱部長泰源：整個西醫基層是0.946；醫院是0.95快要0.959，所以這兩個平均起來，不要講中醫跟牙醫，第一季西醫就已經到達0.95了，第二季差不多應該是這樣的水準。"],["陳委員菁徽：第二季你現在應該有數據了吧？還沒出來？"],["邱部長泰源：還沒。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我們在這邊是幫他們說說話，因為第二季你才開始個別總額限制，所以我們希望你不是只透過核刪、斷頭，或者是個別總額的限制去讓他們達到0.95。我們上禮拜有三讀通過一個特別條例，請問，如果你實際上有這些配置的話，你會不會把它拿來補健保點值？你要怎麼做安排？"],["邱部長泰源：據了解，所有黨團提出來的都很關心醫藥韌性，所以這個部分應該是我們在面對國際間挑戰下，的確是要先補醫藥的韌性，當然我們在今年4月，行政院也通過安全準備基金只要是補進來的，都可以用在政府覺得需要之處，所以將來如果真的點值到達不夠的時候，當然是可以補，這個已經明文規定了。但是跟委員報告一下，其實我現在到醫界去看，對於我們現在的點值，大家真的都覺得相當欣慰，跟以前差很多。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，但因為關稅即將來臨，我們也擔心原物料會變貴，還有川普給予一個什麼最惠國藥價的政策……主席，我的時間到了嗎？","好，部長，我問你最後一個問題，上個禮拜我們三讀通過上限5,450億的特別條例，在野黨60票比執政黨44票，並且有兩案附帶決議，第一案是健保基金獲得的撥補預算優先用於增進我國藥品的供應韌性；第二案是挹注健保基金的預算數不得低於各期預算總數之12%。醫界對於這兩個附帶決議都表示高度的重視，那我們想問，你會不會因為執政黨委員都投反對，所以即使通過了、約束了衛福部必須要做這兩個附帶決議，但是會影響到你執行的成果？"],["邱部長泰源：衛福部是國家的一個政府部門，我們所有政府部門就要為人民創造福國利民的各種措施，所以政府部門是很負責任的，不是短暫的，而是長期能夠穩定在各方面保護國家的安全……"],["陳委員菁徽：我剛剛已經有講這兩個附帶決議的內容，你認為有沒有符合你剛剛講的這些條件？你剛剛說福國利民、永續的……"],["邱部長泰源：對，單單就某一個方面來講，如果有某一項項目對那一個部分的政策有幫助，但其他是不是會影響到國家的整體發展，這也是政府部門必須要無私的考慮國家整體發展，所以我們非常謹慎的遵照……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你的意思是你還在評估？你不曉得你有沒有辦法落實這兩個附帶決議？"],["邱部長泰源：我們一切都會依法辦理。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝主席，謝謝部長、謝謝署長。"],["主席：附帶決議是我提的。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝。"],["主席：不好意思，今天要控制時間。","繼續我們請王育敏質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-21","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","涂權吉","賴惠員","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","陳冠廷","劉建國","黃秀芳","林月琴","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","王正旭","陳瑩","陳永康","楊曜","廖偉翔","盧縣一"],"page_start":325,"meetingDate":["2025-07-17"],"gazette_id":"1146701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部部長、財政部部長、農業部針對「因應嚴重災情、緊急重大事件，\n醫療院所承擔救護量能困境及因應台美關稅談判對台灣食品安全相關影響」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1146701_00006"}}}