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\"end\": 754.106, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"究\", \"start\": 754.106, \"end\": 754.306, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 754.306, \"end\": 754.486, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"析\", \"start\": 754.486, \"end\": 754.726, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 754.726, \"end\": 754.846, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 754.846, \"end\": 754.866, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,069 --> 00:00:03,211\n好謝謝主席麻煩請我們食藥署江署長補充先休息一下\n\n2\n00:00:30,648 --> 00:00:57,063\n在你們所屬業務裡面有一個包裝醬油製程的標示規定目前醬油的標示規定大概也分成這幾類有速成醬油、水解醬油、混合調和醬油跟釀造醬油我想要請教就是說在這四種類別的醬油裡面哪一種類別的醬油售價是最高的\n\n3\n00:01:02,964 --> 00:01:30,366\n很久沒有買醬油猜的好了那個應該是釀造醬油因為是最傳統的古法你真的蠻聰明的真的確實是這個釀造的醬油價格是最高的因為雖然這幾種醬油它的這個原料都相同但是釀造的時間最長時間就是金錢所以釀造醬油是售價最高的那那我再請教你你那麼聰明再猜猜看\n\n4\n00:01:31,207 --> 00:01:41,394\n在這四個類別裡面在市面上哪一個有一個類別已經是不存在的你知道是哪個類別嗎我猜是右下角的速成是不是還是速成醬油猜一下\n\n5\n00:01:49,520 --> 00:02:13,792\n好對果然能夠當食藥署署長頭腦還是不簡單確實這個速成醬油在市面上是已經不存在很久的事情那現在我要請教你這麼聰明的食藥署署長那請問既然已經不存在的類別為什麼你們類別裡面現在還存在這樣子的一個分類\n\n6\n00:02:16,226 --> 00:02:31,055\n你要繼續保存呢還是要這個已經不存在的這個我回去檢討一下他的必要性之後再跟委員做進一步報告好你那麼聰明應該知道要怎麼做啦就已經沒有了好那\n\n7\n00:02:32,796 --> 00:02:58,868\n再來過去衛福部在109年曾經有一項醬油產品監測委託辦理計畫雖然當時您不是食藥署署長但是這份報告對於現階段的包裝醬油製程的標示規範規定有很重要的參考價值我想了解就是說你們後來有沒有新的執行計畫或報告出來\n\n8\n00:03:02,590 --> 00:03:19,867\n這個計畫之後是沒有再進行另外的計畫好那就是維持原來的就沒有新的嘛是的好我記得說這份報告裡面其實我們主要是要解決是否以果醣酸低於0.1%作為標示釀造醬油的依據那檢測結果我們來看一下\n\n9\n00:03:27,137 --> 00:03:49,558\n在108件我们国产的酿造酱油里面全部都没有检测到果糖酸出来那29件国外输入的样本27件未检出那有一件是低于0.1%那只有一件是超标的\n\n10\n00:03:50,479 --> 00:04:10,140\n這樣的結果顯示出我們台灣自己生產的釀造醬油都很棒都沒有問題那可是呢如果因此我們這樣去要求這些釀造醬油廠商必須要自己去標示說他們都沒有\n\n11\n00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:32,599\n含沒有這個果糖酸的這個含量或者是果糖酸低於0.1%那除了這個增加這個檢測的成本之外呢其他他們這個標示也都要全部都改我想這個是一個不太合理的一個要求那因為\n\n12\n00:04:33,860 --> 00:04:56,503\n通常要人家主動證明沒有的東西就好像一個無罪的人要證明自己的清白我想一般大家都無罪推論啦那有罪你就是要去提出證據來嘛所以我想這樣的行政規定我不曉得合不合理我不知道這個署長看法怎麼樣\n\n13\n00:04:58,374 --> 00:05:15,751\n就果醣酸因為我看這個圖表因為之前同仁們在這個報告裡面有特別跟我報告過那因為食品安全還是以科學分析的基礎如果我管制上面用0.1它能夠涵蓋的解釋度大概是92%\n\n14\n00:05:17,546 --> 00:05:40,697\n所以造成了一些會有一些些影響雖然說我們國內的醬油是0.1%的話釀造醬油的確都是符合的但是如果是這樣切下去就會產生一個效果我想後續接下來我們會我想這個已經開始慢慢要進入到去我們會去討論到這個靈敏度跟那個特異度的問題\n\n15\n00:05:42,358 --> 00:06:11,360\n我想在这份报告就是另外的结果也有显示就是说有另外两种的这个水解跟调和酱油我们再继续看29个水解酱油有8个果糖酸未减出或低于0.1%那29个调和酱油有10个未减出或低于0.1%所以如果以果糖酸作为标示酿造酱油的关键指标\n\n16\n00:06:12,361 --> 00:06:18,596\n那我們看18個水解跟調和醬油可不可以標示為釀造醬油\n\n17\n00:06:20,663 --> 00:06:45,594\n因為這個數據這樣子顯示我們反過來講那如果他可以標示如果規定是這樣那他標示了釀造醬油這個價格馬上就翻倍了剛剛署長馬上就猜說釀造醬油應該是最貴的現在大家都知道了那本來或許這些業者也沒有想要標示為這個釀造醬油的意圖\n\n18\n00:06:47,495 --> 00:07:14,200\n但是如果你們強制做了這樣的規定之後呢漏洞出來了他們反而可以就是說違反規定就是讓價格翻倍也會變成是沒有違規的問題了我在這裡特別提出這樣子的推論不知道署長認不認同委員這個講得非常非常精準因為就我的\n\n19\n00:07:15,502 --> 00:07:30,750\n市場的稽查的時候如果以這個標準去當稽查那的確他一線切下來他小於0.1如果他標示說他是釀造的我們很難去做後續判斷他真的釀造或者是\n\n20\n00:07:32,291 --> 00:07:48,466\n所以我現在特別點出這樣子的問題那看來食藥署都有弄懂了那我想問題的本質在於沒有的你們要人家自己去證明自己沒有那\n\n21\n00:07:50,090 --> 00:08:18,248\n卻反而開了一扇門讓他們讓這些就是說可能或許未來變成有機會不違規的去做不正確的標示那我想就是說我也是有點想不通啦所以說這樣子去改變醬油的標示那我不曉得這個意義到底在哪裡除了增加成本給出模糊的空間以外到底還有什麼就是說有利於民眾的好處\n\n22\n00:08:19,605 --> 00:08:47,416\n有嗎目前我們針對這個議題其實持續在研議也邀請一些專家委員來協助我們去做該如何去的確果醣酸單一的很困難當作是一個判斷因為醬油我們每天每天這麼多人在吃那現在是這樣我舉個例子好了就像早期這個紅標米酒的原料它也\n\n23\n00:08:48,917 --> 00:09:08,819\n應該不是早期啦我是說紅標米酒的原料它也有參入這個食品級的鹽酸那經過發酵蒸餾之後它就完全就去除了難道我們也一樣要要求紅標米酒變成鹽酸米酒嗎你家變成鹽酸米酒我想大家看了這個字眼應該都不敢買了吧\n\n24\n00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:37,292\n那在特別在監察院110年8月23號的函文裡面這個有特別提醒你們說在把這個食品安全衛生管理法第28條第一項規定食品標示不得有不實誇張或異生誤解之情形所以我拿監察院特別再提醒你們的這個條文再提醒你們一次因為\n\n25\n00:09:38,905 --> 00:09:58,115\n在這個水解過程中使用鹽酸那醬油販售成為商品之後它也就都沒有鹽酸了那還要要求廠商來標示說鹽酸水解醬油或者酸水解醬油我覺得這個是讓民眾\n\n26\n00:10:01,576 --> 00:10:25,524\n看了會卻步的事情所以這樣子的要求其實是很擾民的啦那我不知道就是說署長你新上任你就大力要來支持這樣子的一個規定還是說你有什麼樣比較合理的一個想法跟看法因為我很怕你們被逼著違法耶\n\n27\n00:10:26,537 --> 00:10:50,792\n報告委員這邊因為不管我們的鹽酸或者我們之前其他的叫做氫鹽也就是酸鹼平衡裡面的氫氧化鈉都是所謂的加工注劑這加工注劑在國際間的規範在我們在標示的部分其實是沒有強制這樣子的標示那要因為已經的確是五委員所說的化學反應之後最後他其實是沒有特別鹽酸的存在\n\n28\n00:10:51,152 --> 00:11:17,370\n沒有就不用再要求人家寫了吧我想本席是絕對要會支持就是說我們要有正確的標示還有關鍵指標建立那既然署長你又是這個台大的這個醫學院的教授好的指標必須要同時要符合這個我剛剛前面講的靈敏度跟他的特異度都要高同時都要高那所以這份報告在你們沒有新的數據出來之前他\n\n29\n00:11:19,011 --> 00:11:33,018\n我們現在有的也就是一個最新的參考數據所以結果是證明說以果醣酸當釀造醬油的關鍵判定指標它是存在有這個特異度高靈敏度不到七成的問題\n\n30\n00:11:34,259 --> 00:11:56,733\n所以我想今天整個質詢我必須點出這個那全世界也都沒有其他國家有做這樣的規定所以除非你們有最新的數據支持不然我們要貿然去改變這樣的一個標示一定要有很明確的目的跟依據不然你們就是為了管制而管制了那除了增加業者的成本\n\n31\n00:11:57,954 --> 00:12:17,633\n也是就是說業者提高了這個醬油的價格然後到頭來最後傷害的還是我們民眾的荷包甚至影響到物價上揚所以我最後請就請你們就是說醬油製就是說這個醬油製造為釀造醬油以果醣酸為標示重新檢討那並於這個\n\n32\n00:12:20,416 --> 00:12:34,866\n就是說我讓你們有很長的時間六個月一年都可以你們就是好好研究然後提出報告之後再來做這個定論好不好好謝謝委員我們再去進一步的研究分析謝謝謝謝謝謝陳委員謝謝署長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n69\t3211\t好 謝謝主席 麻煩請我們食藥署 江署長補充 先休息一下\n30648\t57063\t在你們所屬業務裡面有一個包裝醬油製程的標示規定目前醬油的標示規定大概也分成這幾類有速成醬油、水解醬油、混合調和醬油跟釀造醬油我想要請教就是說在這四種類別的醬油裡面哪一種類別的醬油售價是最高的\n60674\t62159\t鮑爾園\n62964\t90366\t很久沒有買醬油猜的好了那個應該是釀造醬油因為是最傳統的古法你真的蠻聰明的真的確實是這個釀造的醬油價格是最高的因為雖然這幾種醬油它的這個原料都相同但是釀造的時間最長時間就是金錢所以釀造醬油是售價最高的那那我再請教你你那麼聰明再猜猜看\n91207\t101394\t在這四個類別裡面在市面上哪一個有一個類別已經是不存在的你知道是哪個類別嗎我猜是右下角的速成是不是還是速成醬油猜一下\n109520\t133792\t好對果然能夠當食藥署署長頭腦還是不簡單確實這個速成醬油在市面上是已經不存在很久的事情那現在我要請教你這麼聰明的食藥署署長那請問既然已經不存在的類別為什麼你們類別裡面現在還存在這樣子的一個分類\n136226\t151055\t你要繼續保存呢還是要這個已經不存在的這個我回去檢討一下他的必要性之後再跟委員做進一步報告好你那麼聰明應該知道要怎麼做啦就已經沒有了好那\n152796\t178868\t再來過去衛福部在109年曾經有一項醬油產品監測委託辦理計畫雖然當時您不是食藥署署長但是這份報告對於現階段的包裝醬油製程的標示規範規定有很重要的參考價值我想了解就是說你們後來有沒有新的執行計畫或報告出來\n182590\t199867\t這個計畫之後是沒有再進行另外的計畫好那就是維持原來的就沒有新的嘛是的好我記得說這份報告裡面其實我們主要是要解決是否以果醣酸低於0.1%作為標示釀造醬油的依據那檢測結果我們來看一下\n207137\t229558\t在108件我们国产的酿造酱油里面全部都没有检测到果糖酸出来那29件国外输入的样本27件未检出那有一件是低于0.1%那只有一件是超标的\n230479\t250140\t這樣的結果顯示出我們台灣自己生產的釀造醬油都很棒都沒有問題那可是呢如果因此我們這樣去要求這些釀造醬油廠商必須要自己去標示說他們都沒有\n250600\t272599\t含沒有這個果糖酸的這個含量或者是果糖酸低於0.1%那除了這個增加這個檢測的成本之外呢其他他們這個標示也都要全部都改我想這個是一個不太合理的一個要求那因為\n273860\t296503\t通常要人家主動證明沒有的東西就好像一個無罪的人要證明自己的清白我想一般大家都無罪推論啦那有罪你就是要去提出證據來嘛所以我想這樣的行政規定我不曉得合不合理我不知道這個署長看法怎麼樣\n298374\t315751\t就果醣酸因為我看這個圖表因為之前同仁們在這個報告裡面有特別跟我報告過那因為食品安全還是以科學分析的基礎如果我管制上面用0.1它能夠涵蓋的解釋度大概是92%\n317546\t340697\t所以造成了一些會有一些些影響雖然說我們國內的醬油是0.1%的話釀造醬油的確都是符合的但是如果是這樣切下去就會產生一個效果我想後續接下來我們會我想這個已經開始慢慢要進入到去我們會去討論到這個靈敏度跟那個特異度的問題\n342358\t371360\t我想在这份报告就是另外的结果也有显示就是说有另外两种的这个水解跟调和酱油我们再继续看29个水解酱油有8个果糖酸未减出或低于0.1%那29个调和酱油有10个未减出或低于0.1%所以如果以果糖酸作为标示酿造酱油的关键指标\n372361\t378596\t那我們看18個水解跟調和醬油可不可以標示為釀造醬油\n380663\t405594\t因為這個數據這樣子顯示我們反過來講那如果他可以標示如果規定是這樣那他標示了釀造醬油這個價格馬上就翻倍了剛剛署長馬上就猜說釀造醬油應該是最貴的現在大家都知道了那本來或許這些業者也沒有想要標示為這個釀造醬油的意圖\n407495\t434200\t但是如果你們強制做了這樣的規定之後呢漏洞出來了他們反而可以就是說違反規定就是讓價格翻倍也會變成是沒有違規的問題了我在這裡特別提出這樣子的推論不知道署長認不認同委員這個講得非常非常精準因為就我的\n435502\t450750\t市場的稽查的時候如果以這個標準去當稽查那的確他一線切下來他小於0.1如果他標示說他是釀造的我們很難去做後續判斷他真的釀造或者是\n452291\t468466\t所以我現在特別點出這樣子的問題那看來食藥署都有弄懂了那我想問題的本質在於沒有的你們要人家自己去證明自己沒有那\n470090\t498248\t卻反而開了一扇門讓他們讓這些就是說可能或許未來變成有機會不違規的去做不正確的標示那我想就是說我也是有點想不通啦所以說這樣子去改變醬油的標示那我不曉得這個意義到底在哪裡除了增加成本給出模糊的空間以外到底還有什麼就是說有利於民眾的好處\n499605\t527416\t有嗎目前我們針對這個議題其實持續在研議也邀請一些專家委員來協助我們去做該如何去的確果醣酸單一的很困難當作是一個判斷因為醬油我們每天每天這麼多人在吃那現在是這樣我舉個例子好了就像早期這個紅標米酒的原料它也\n528917\t548819\t應該不是早期啦我是說紅標米酒的原料它也有參入這個食品級的鹽酸那經過發酵蒸餾之後它就完全就去除了難道我們也一樣要要求紅標米酒變成鹽酸米酒嗎你家變成鹽酸米酒我想大家看了這個字眼應該都不敢買了吧\n549600\t577292\t那在特別在監察院110年8月23號的函文裡面這個有特別提醒你們說在把這個食品安全衛生管理法第28條第一項規定食品標示不得有不實誇張或異生誤解之情形所以我拿監察院特別再提醒你們的這個條文再提醒你們一次因為\n578905\t598115\t在這個水解過程中使用鹽酸那醬油販售成為商品之後它也就都沒有鹽酸了那還要要求廠商來標示說鹽酸水解醬油或者酸水解醬油我覺得這個是讓民眾\n601576\t625524\t看了會卻步的事情所以這樣子的要求其實是很擾民的啦那我不知道就是說署長你新上任你就大力要來支持這樣子的一個規定還是說你有什麼樣比較合理的一個想法跟看法因為我很怕你們被逼著違法耶\n626537\t650792\t報告委員這邊因為不管我們的鹽酸或者我們之前其他的叫做氫鹽也就是酸鹼平衡裡面的氫氧化鈉都是所謂的加工注劑這加工注劑在國際間的規範在我們在標示的部分其實是沒有強制這樣子的標示那要因為已經的確是五委員所說的化學反應之後最後他其實是沒有特別鹽酸的存在\n651152\t677370\t沒有就不用再要求人家寫了吧我想本席是絕對要會支持就是說我們要有正確的標示還有關鍵指標建立那既然 署長你又是這個台大的這個醫學院的教授好的指標必須要同時要符合這個我剛剛前面講的靈敏度跟他的特異度都要高同時都要高那所以這份報告在你們沒有新的數據出來之前他\n679011\t693018\t我們現在有的也就是一個最新的參考數據所以結果是證明說以果醣酸當釀造醬油的關鍵判定指標它是存在有這個特異度高靈敏度不到七成的問題\n694259\t716733\t所以我想今天整個質詢我必須點出這個那全世界也都沒有其他國家有做這樣的規定所以除非你們有最新的數據支持不然我們要貿然去改變這樣的一個標示一定要有很明確的目的跟依據不然你們就是為了管制而管制了那除了增加業者的成本\n717954\t737633\t也是就是說業者提高了這個醬油的價格然後到頭來最後傷害的還是我們民眾的荷包甚至影響到物價上揚所以我最後請就請你們就是說醬油製就是說這個醬油製造為釀造醬油以果醣酸為標示重新檢討那並於這個\n740416\t754866\t就是說我讓你們有很長的時間六個月一年都可以你們就是好好研究然後提出報告之後再來做這個定論好不好好謝謝委員我們再去進一步的研究分析謝謝謝謝謝謝陳委員謝謝署長\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 麻煩請我們食藥署 江署長補充 先休息一下\n在你們所屬業務裡面有一個包裝醬油製程的標示規定目前醬油的標示規定大概也分成這幾類有速成醬油、水解醬油、混合調和醬油跟釀造醬油我想要請教就是說在這四種類別的醬油裡面哪一種類別的醬油售價是最高的\n鮑爾園\n很久沒有買醬油猜的好了那個應該是釀造醬油因為是最傳統的古法你真的蠻聰明的真的確實是這個釀造的醬油價格是最高的因為雖然這幾種醬油它的這個原料都相同但是釀造的時間最長時間就是金錢所以釀造醬油是售價最高的那那我再請教你你那麼聰明再猜猜看\n在這四個類別裡面在市面上哪一個有一個類別已經是不存在的你知道是哪個類別嗎我猜是右下角的速成是不是還是速成醬油猜一下\n好對果然能夠當食藥署署長頭腦還是不簡單確實這個速成醬油在市面上是已經不存在很久的事情那現在我要請教你這麼聰明的食藥署署長那請問既然已經不存在的類別為什麼你們類別裡面現在還存在這樣子的一個分類\n你要繼續保存呢還是要這個已經不存在的這個我回去檢討一下他的必要性之後再跟委員做進一步報告好你那麼聰明應該知道要怎麼做啦就已經沒有了好那\n再來過去衛福部在109年曾經有一項醬油產品監測委託辦理計畫雖然當時您不是食藥署署長但是這份報告對於現階段的包裝醬油製程的標示規範規定有很重要的參考價值我想了解就是說你們後來有沒有新的執行計畫或報告出來\n這個計畫之後是沒有再進行另外的計畫好那就是維持原來的就沒有新的嘛是的好我記得說這份報告裡面其實我們主要是要解決是否以果醣酸低於0.1%作為標示釀造醬油的依據那檢測結果我們來看一下\n在108件我们国产的酿造酱油里面全部都没有检测到果糖酸出来那29件国外输入的样本27件未检出那有一件是低于0.1%那只有一件是超标的\n這樣的結果顯示出我們台灣自己生產的釀造醬油都很棒都沒有問題那可是呢如果因此我們這樣去要求這些釀造醬油廠商必須要自己去標示說他們都沒有\n含沒有這個果糖酸的這個含量或者是果糖酸低於0.1%那除了這個增加這個檢測的成本之外呢其他他們這個標示也都要全部都改我想這個是一個不太合理的一個要求那因為\n通常要人家主動證明沒有的東西就好像一個無罪的人要證明自己的清白我想一般大家都無罪推論啦那有罪你就是要去提出證據來嘛所以我想這樣的行政規定我不曉得合不合理我不知道這個署長看法怎麼樣\n就果醣酸因為我看這個圖表因為之前同仁們在這個報告裡面有特別跟我報告過那因為食品安全還是以科學分析的基礎如果我管制上面用0.1它能夠涵蓋的解釋度大概是92%\n所以造成了一些會有一些些影響雖然說我們國內的醬油是0.1%的話釀造醬油的確都是符合的但是如果是這樣切下去就會產生一個效果我想後續接下來我們會我想這個已經開始慢慢要進入到去我們會去討論到這個靈敏度跟那個特異度的問題\n我想在这份报告就是另外的结果也有显示就是说有另外两种的这个水解跟调和酱油我们再继续看29个水解酱油有8个果糖酸未减出或低于0.1%那29个调和酱油有10个未减出或低于0.1%所以如果以果糖酸作为标示酿造酱油的关键指标\n那我們看18個水解跟調和醬油可不可以標示為釀造醬油\n因為這個數據這樣子顯示我們反過來講那如果他可以標示如果規定是這樣那他標示了釀造醬油這個價格馬上就翻倍了剛剛署長馬上就猜說釀造醬油應該是最貴的現在大家都知道了那本來或許這些業者也沒有想要標示為這個釀造醬油的意圖\n但是如果你們強制做了這樣的規定之後呢漏洞出來了他們反而可以就是說違反規定就是讓價格翻倍也會變成是沒有違規的問題了我在這裡特別提出這樣子的推論不知道署長認不認同委員這個講得非常非常精準因為就我的\n市場的稽查的時候如果以這個標準去當稽查那的確他一線切下來他小於0.1如果他標示說他是釀造的我們很難去做後續判斷他真的釀造或者是\n所以我現在特別點出這樣子的問題那看來食藥署都有弄懂了那我想問題的本質在於沒有的你們要人家自己去證明自己沒有那\n卻反而開了一扇門讓他們讓這些就是說可能或許未來變成有機會不違規的去做不正確的標示那我想就是說我也是有點想不通啦所以說這樣子去改變醬油的標示那我不曉得這個意義到底在哪裡除了增加成本給出模糊的空間以外到底還有什麼就是說有利於民眾的好處\n有嗎目前我們針對這個議題其實持續在研議也邀請一些專家委員來協助我們去做該如何去的確果醣酸單一的很困難當作是一個判斷因為醬油我們每天每天這麼多人在吃那現在是這樣我舉個例子好了就像早期這個紅標米酒的原料它也\n應該不是早期啦我是說紅標米酒的原料它也有參入這個食品級的鹽酸那經過發酵蒸餾之後它就完全就去除了難道我們也一樣要要求紅標米酒變成鹽酸米酒嗎你家變成鹽酸米酒我想大家看了這個字眼應該都不敢買了吧\n那在特別在監察院110年8月23號的函文裡面這個有特別提醒你們說在把這個食品安全衛生管理法第28條第一項規定食品標示不得有不實誇張或異生誤解之情形所以我拿監察院特別再提醒你們的這個條文再提醒你們一次因為\n在這個水解過程中使用鹽酸那醬油販售成為商品之後它也就都沒有鹽酸了那還要要求廠商來標示說鹽酸水解醬油或者酸水解醬油我覺得這個是讓民眾\n看了會卻步的事情所以這樣子的要求其實是很擾民的啦那我不知道就是說署長你新上任你就大力要來支持這樣子的一個規定還是說你有什麼樣比較合理的一個想法跟看法因為我很怕你們被逼著違法耶\n報告委員這邊因為不管我們的鹽酸或者我們之前其他的叫做氫鹽也就是酸鹼平衡裡面的氫氧化鈉都是所謂的加工注劑這加工注劑在國際間的規範在我們在標示的部分其實是沒有強制這樣子的標示那要因為已經的確是五委員所說的化學反應之後最後他其實是沒有特別鹽酸的存在\n沒有就不用再要求人家寫了吧我想本席是絕對要會支持就是說我們要有正確的標示還有關鍵指標建立那既然 署長你又是這個台大的這個醫學院的教授好的指標必須要同時要符合這個我剛剛前面講的靈敏度跟他的特異度都要高同時都要高那所以這份報告在你們沒有新的數據出來之前他\n我們現在有的也就是一個最新的參考數據所以結果是證明說以果醣酸當釀造醬油的關鍵判定指標它是存在有這個特異度高靈敏度不到七成的問題\n所以我想今天整個質詢我必須點出這個那全世界也都沒有其他國家有做這樣的規定所以除非你們有最新的數據支持不然我們要貿然去改變這樣的一個標示一定要有很明確的目的跟依據不然你們就是為了管制而管制了那除了增加業者的成本\n也是就是說業者提高了這個醬油的價格然後到頭來最後傷害的還是我們民眾的荷包甚至影響到物價上揚所以我最後請就請你們就是說醬油製就是說這個醬油製造為釀造醬油以果醣酸為標示重新檢討那並於這個\n就是說我讓你們有很長的時間六個月一年都可以你們就是好好研究然後提出報告之後再來做這個定論好不好好謝謝委員我們再去進一步的研究分析謝謝謝謝謝謝陳委員謝謝署長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.069 --> 00:03.211\n好謝謝主席麻煩請我們食藥署江署長補充先休息一下\n\n00:30.648 --> 00:57.063\n在你們所屬業務裡面有一個包裝醬油製程的標示規定目前醬油的標示規定大概也分成這幾類有速成醬油、水解醬油、混合調和醬油跟釀造醬油我想要請教就是說在這四種類別的醬油裡面哪一種類別的醬油售價是最高的\n\n01:02.964 --> 01:30.366\n很久沒有買醬油猜的好了那個應該是釀造醬油因為是最傳統的古法你真的蠻聰明的真的確實是這個釀造的醬油價格是最高的因為雖然這幾種醬油它的這個原料都相同但是釀造的時間最長時間就是金錢所以釀造醬油是售價最高的那那我再請教你你那麼聰明再猜猜看\n\n01:31.207 --> 01:41.394\n在這四個類別裡面在市面上哪一個有一個類別已經是不存在的你知道是哪個類別嗎我猜是右下角的速成是不是還是速成醬油猜一下\n\n01:49.520 --> 02:13.792\n好對果然能夠當食藥署署長頭腦還是不簡單確實這個速成醬油在市面上是已經不存在很久的事情那現在我要請教你這麼聰明的食藥署署長那請問既然已經不存在的類別為什麼你們類別裡面現在還存在這樣子的一個分類\n\n02:16.226 --> 02:31.055\n你要繼續保存呢還是要這個已經不存在的這個我回去檢討一下他的必要性之後再跟委員做進一步報告好你那麼聰明應該知道要怎麼做啦就已經沒有了好那\n\n02:32.796 --> 02:58.868\n再來過去衛福部在109年曾經有一項醬油產品監測委託辦理計畫雖然當時您不是食藥署署長但是這份報告對於現階段的包裝醬油製程的標示規範規定有很重要的參考價值我想了解就是說你們後來有沒有新的執行計畫或報告出來\n\n03:02.590 --> 03:19.867\n這個計畫之後是沒有再進行另外的計畫好那就是維持原來的就沒有新的嘛是的好我記得說這份報告裡面其實我們主要是要解決是否以果醣酸低於0.1%作為標示釀造醬油的依據那檢測結果我們來看一下\n\n03:27.137 --> 03:49.558\n在108件我们国产的酿造酱油里面全部都没有检测到果糖酸出来那29件国外输入的样本27件未检出那有一件是低于0.1%那只有一件是超标的\n\n03:50.479 --> 04:10.140\n這樣的結果顯示出我們台灣自己生產的釀造醬油都很棒都沒有問題那可是呢如果因此我們這樣去要求這些釀造醬油廠商必須要自己去標示說他們都沒有\n\n04:10.600 --> 04:32.599\n含沒有這個果糖酸的這個含量或者是果糖酸低於0.1%那除了這個增加這個檢測的成本之外呢其他他們這個標示也都要全部都改我想這個是一個不太合理的一個要求那因為\n\n04:33.860 --> 04:56.503\n通常要人家主動證明沒有的東西就好像一個無罪的人要證明自己的清白我想一般大家都無罪推論啦那有罪你就是要去提出證據來嘛所以我想這樣的行政規定我不曉得合不合理我不知道這個署長看法怎麼樣\n\n04:58.374 --> 05:15.751\n就果醣酸因為我看這個圖表因為之前同仁們在這個報告裡面有特別跟我報告過那因為食品安全還是以科學分析的基礎如果我管制上面用0.1它能夠涵蓋的解釋度大概是92%\n\n05:17.546 --> 05:40.697\n所以造成了一些會有一些些影響雖然說我們國內的醬油是0.1%的話釀造醬油的確都是符合的但是如果是這樣切下去就會產生一個效果我想後續接下來我們會我想這個已經開始慢慢要進入到去我們會去討論到這個靈敏度跟那個特異度的問題\n\n05:42.358 --> 06:11.360\n我想在这份报告就是另外的结果也有显示就是说有另外两种的这个水解跟调和酱油我们再继续看29个水解酱油有8个果糖酸未减出或低于0.1%那29个调和酱油有10个未减出或低于0.1%所以如果以果糖酸作为标示酿造酱油的关键指标\n\n06:12.361 --> 06:18.596\n那我們看18個水解跟調和醬油可不可以標示為釀造醬油\n\n06:20.663 --> 06:45.594\n因為這個數據這樣子顯示我們反過來講那如果他可以標示如果規定是這樣那他標示了釀造醬油這個價格馬上就翻倍了剛剛署長馬上就猜說釀造醬油應該是最貴的現在大家都知道了那本來或許這些業者也沒有想要標示為這個釀造醬油的意圖\n\n06:47.495 --> 07:14.200\n但是如果你們強制做了這樣的規定之後呢漏洞出來了他們反而可以就是說違反規定就是讓價格翻倍也會變成是沒有違規的問題了我在這裡特別提出這樣子的推論不知道署長認不認同委員這個講得非常非常精準因為就我的\n\n07:15.502 --> 07:30.750\n市場的稽查的時候如果以這個標準去當稽查那的確他一線切下來他小於0.1如果他標示說他是釀造的我們很難去做後續判斷他真的釀造或者是\n\n07:32.291 --> 07:48.466\n所以我現在特別點出這樣子的問題那看來食藥署都有弄懂了那我想問題的本質在於沒有的你們要人家自己去證明自己沒有那\n\n07:50.090 --> 08:18.248\n卻反而開了一扇門讓他們讓這些就是說可能或許未來變成有機會不違規的去做不正確的標示那我想就是說我也是有點想不通啦所以說這樣子去改變醬油的標示那我不曉得這個意義到底在哪裡除了增加成本給出模糊的空間以外到底還有什麼就是說有利於民眾的好處\n\n08:19.605 --> 08:47.416\n有嗎目前我們針對這個議題其實持續在研議也邀請一些專家委員來協助我們去做該如何去的確果醣酸單一的很困難當作是一個判斷因為醬油我們每天每天這麼多人在吃那現在是這樣我舉個例子好了就像早期這個紅標米酒的原料它也\n\n08:48.917 --> 09:08.819\n應該不是早期啦我是說紅標米酒的原料它也有參入這個食品級的鹽酸那經過發酵蒸餾之後它就完全就去除了難道我們也一樣要要求紅標米酒變成鹽酸米酒嗎你家變成鹽酸米酒我想大家看了這個字眼應該都不敢買了吧\n\n09:09.600 --> 09:37.292\n那在特別在監察院110年8月23號的函文裡面這個有特別提醒你們說在把這個食品安全衛生管理法第28條第一項規定食品標示不得有不實誇張或異生誤解之情形所以我拿監察院特別再提醒你們的這個條文再提醒你們一次因為\n\n09:38.905 --> 09:58.115\n在這個水解過程中使用鹽酸那醬油販售成為商品之後它也就都沒有鹽酸了那還要要求廠商來標示說鹽酸水解醬油或者酸水解醬油我覺得這個是讓民眾\n\n10:01.576 --> 10:25.524\n看了會卻步的事情所以這樣子的要求其實是很擾民的啦那我不知道就是說署長你新上任你就大力要來支持這樣子的一個規定還是說你有什麼樣比較合理的一個想法跟看法因為我很怕你們被逼著違法耶\n\n10:26.537 --> 10:50.792\n報告委員這邊因為不管我們的鹽酸或者我們之前其他的叫做氫鹽也就是酸鹼平衡裡面的氫氧化鈉都是所謂的加工注劑這加工注劑在國際間的規範在我們在標示的部分其實是沒有強制這樣子的標示那要因為已經的確是五委員所說的化學反應之後最後他其實是沒有特別鹽酸的存在\n\n10:51.152 --> 11:17.370\n沒有就不用再要求人家寫了吧我想本席是絕對要會支持就是說我們要有正確的標示還有關鍵指標建立那既然署長你又是這個台大的這個醫學院的教授好的指標必須要同時要符合這個我剛剛前面講的靈敏度跟他的特異度都要高同時都要高那所以這份報告在你們沒有新的數據出來之前他\n\n11:19.011 --> 11:33.018\n我們現在有的也就是一個最新的參考數據所以結果是證明說以果醣酸當釀造醬油的關鍵判定指標它是存在有這個特異度高靈敏度不到七成的問題\n\n11:34.259 --> 11:56.733\n所以我想今天整個質詢我必須點出這個那全世界也都沒有其他國家有做這樣的規定所以除非你們有最新的數據支持不然我們要貿然去改變這樣的一個標示一定要有很明確的目的跟依據不然你們就是為了管制而管制了那除了增加業者的成本\n\n11:57.954 --> 12:17.633\n也是就是說業者提高了這個醬油的價格然後到頭來最後傷害的還是我們民眾的荷包甚至影響到物價上揚所以我最後請就請你們就是說醬油製就是說這個醬油製造為釀造醬油以果醣酸為標示重新檢討那並於這個\n\n12:20.416 --> 12:34.866\n就是說我讓你們有很長的時間六個月一年都可以你們就是好好研究然後提出報告之後再來做這個定論好不好好謝謝委員我們再去進一步的研究分析謝謝謝謝謝謝陳委員謝謝署長\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.069,"end":3.211,"text":"好 謝謝主席 麻煩請我們食藥署 江署長補充 先休息一下"},{"start":30.648,"end":57.063,"text":"在你們所屬業務裡面有一個包裝醬油製程的標示規定目前醬油的標示規定大概也分成這幾類有速成醬油、水解醬油、混合調和醬油跟釀造醬油我想要請教就是說在這四種類別的醬油裡面哪一種類別的醬油售價是最高的"},{"start":60.674,"end":62.159,"text":"鮑爾園"},{"start":62.964,"end":90.366,"text":"很久沒有買醬油猜的好了那個應該是釀造醬油因為是最傳統的古法你真的蠻聰明的真的確實是這個釀造的醬油價格是最高的因為雖然這幾種醬油它的這個原料都相同但是釀造的時間最長時間就是金錢所以釀造醬油是售價最高的那那我再請教你你那麼聰明再猜猜看"},{"start":91.207,"end":101.394,"text":"在這四個類別裡面在市面上哪一個有一個類別已經是不存在的你知道是哪個類別嗎我猜是右下角的速成是不是還是速成醬油猜一下"},{"start":109.52,"end":133.792,"text":"好對果然能夠當食藥署署長頭腦還是不簡單確實這個速成醬油在市面上是已經不存在很久的事情那現在我要請教你這麼聰明的食藥署署長那請問既然已經不存在的類別為什麼你們類別裡面現在還存在這樣子的一個分類"},{"start":136.226,"end":151.055,"text":"你要繼續保存呢還是要這個已經不存在的這個我回去檢討一下他的必要性之後再跟委員做進一步報告好你那麼聰明應該知道要怎麼做啦就已經沒有了好那"},{"start":152.796,"end":178.868,"text":"再來過去衛福部在109年曾經有一項醬油產品監測委託辦理計畫雖然當時您不是食藥署署長但是這份報告對於現階段的包裝醬油製程的標示規範規定有很重要的參考價值我想了解就是說你們後來有沒有新的執行計畫或報告出來"},{"start":182.59,"end":199.867,"text":"這個計畫之後是沒有再進行另外的計畫好那就是維持原來的就沒有新的嘛是的好我記得說這份報告裡面其實我們主要是要解決是否以果醣酸低於0.1%作為標示釀造醬油的依據那檢測結果我們來看一下"},{"start":207.137,"end":229.558,"text":"在108件我们国产的酿造酱油里面全部都没有检测到果糖酸出来那29件国外输入的样本27件未检出那有一件是低于0.1%那只有一件是超标的"},{"start":230.479,"end":250.14,"text":"這樣的結果顯示出我們台灣自己生產的釀造醬油都很棒都沒有問題那可是呢如果因此我們這樣去要求這些釀造醬油廠商必須要自己去標示說他們都沒有"},{"start":250.6,"end":272.599,"text":"含沒有這個果糖酸的這個含量或者是果糖酸低於0.1%那除了這個增加這個檢測的成本之外呢其他他們這個標示也都要全部都改我想這個是一個不太合理的一個要求那因為"},{"start":273.86,"end":296.503,"text":"通常要人家主動證明沒有的東西就好像一個無罪的人要證明自己的清白我想一般大家都無罪推論啦那有罪你就是要去提出證據來嘛所以我想這樣的行政規定我不曉得合不合理我不知道這個署長看法怎麼樣"},{"start":298.374,"end":315.751,"text":"就果醣酸因為我看這個圖表因為之前同仁們在這個報告裡面有特別跟我報告過那因為食品安全還是以科學分析的基礎如果我管制上面用0.1它能夠涵蓋的解釋度大概是92%"},{"start":317.546,"end":340.697,"text":"所以造成了一些會有一些些影響雖然說我們國內的醬油是0.1%的話釀造醬油的確都是符合的但是如果是這樣切下去就會產生一個效果我想後續接下來我們會我想這個已經開始慢慢要進入到去我們會去討論到這個靈敏度跟那個特異度的問題"},{"start":342.358,"end":371.36,"text":"我想在这份报告就是另外的结果也有显示就是说有另外两种的这个水解跟调和酱油我们再继续看29个水解酱油有8个果糖酸未减出或低于0.1%那29个调和酱油有10个未减出或低于0.1%所以如果以果糖酸作为标示酿造酱油的关键指标"},{"start":372.361,"end":378.596,"text":"那我們看18個水解跟調和醬油可不可以標示為釀造醬油"},{"start":380.663,"end":405.594,"text":"因為這個數據這樣子顯示我們反過來講那如果他可以標示如果規定是這樣那他標示了釀造醬油這個價格馬上就翻倍了剛剛署長馬上就猜說釀造醬油應該是最貴的現在大家都知道了那本來或許這些業者也沒有想要標示為這個釀造醬油的意圖"},{"start":407.495,"end":434.2,"text":"但是如果你們強制做了這樣的規定之後呢漏洞出來了他們反而可以就是說違反規定就是讓價格翻倍也會變成是沒有違規的問題了我在這裡特別提出這樣子的推論不知道署長認不認同委員這個講得非常非常精準因為就我的"},{"start":435.502,"end":450.75,"text":"市場的稽查的時候如果以這個標準去當稽查那的確他一線切下來他小於0.1如果他標示說他是釀造的我們很難去做後續判斷他真的釀造或者是"},{"start":452.291,"end":468.466,"text":"所以我現在特別點出這樣子的問題那看來食藥署都有弄懂了那我想問題的本質在於沒有的你們要人家自己去證明自己沒有那"},{"start":470.09,"end":498.248,"text":"卻反而開了一扇門讓他們讓這些就是說可能或許未來變成有機會不違規的去做不正確的標示那我想就是說我也是有點想不通啦所以說這樣子去改變醬油的標示那我不曉得這個意義到底在哪裡除了增加成本給出模糊的空間以外到底還有什麼就是說有利於民眾的好處"},{"start":499.605,"end":527.416,"text":"有嗎目前我們針對這個議題其實持續在研議也邀請一些專家委員來協助我們去做該如何去的確果醣酸單一的很困難當作是一個判斷因為醬油我們每天每天這麼多人在吃那現在是這樣我舉個例子好了就像早期這個紅標米酒的原料它也"},{"start":528.917,"end":548.819,"text":"應該不是早期啦我是說紅標米酒的原料它也有參入這個食品級的鹽酸那經過發酵蒸餾之後它就完全就去除了難道我們也一樣要要求紅標米酒變成鹽酸米酒嗎你家變成鹽酸米酒我想大家看了這個字眼應該都不敢買了吧"},{"start":549.6,"end":577.292,"text":"那在特別在監察院110年8月23號的函文裡面這個有特別提醒你們說在把這個食品安全衛生管理法第28條第一項規定食品標示不得有不實誇張或異生誤解之情形所以我拿監察院特別再提醒你們的這個條文再提醒你們一次因為"},{"start":578.905,"end":598.115,"text":"在這個水解過程中使用鹽酸那醬油販售成為商品之後它也就都沒有鹽酸了那還要要求廠商來標示說鹽酸水解醬油或者酸水解醬油我覺得這個是讓民眾"},{"start":601.576,"end":625.524,"text":"看了會卻步的事情所以這樣子的要求其實是很擾民的啦那我不知道就是說署長你新上任你就大力要來支持這樣子的一個規定還是說你有什麼樣比較合理的一個想法跟看法因為我很怕你們被逼著違法耶"},{"start":626.537,"end":650.792,"text":"報告委員這邊因為不管我們的鹽酸或者我們之前其他的叫做氫鹽也就是酸鹼平衡裡面的氫氧化鈉都是所謂的加工注劑這加工注劑在國際間的規範在我們在標示的部分其實是沒有強制這樣子的標示那要因為已經的確是五委員所說的化學反應之後最後他其實是沒有特別鹽酸的存在"},{"start":651.152,"end":677.37,"text":"沒有就不用再要求人家寫了吧我想本席是絕對要會支持就是說我們要有正確的標示還有關鍵指標建立那既然 署長你又是這個台大的這個醫學院的教授好的指標必須要同時要符合這個我剛剛前面講的靈敏度跟他的特異度都要高同時都要高那所以這份報告在你們沒有新的數據出來之前他"},{"start":679.011,"end":693.018,"text":"我們現在有的也就是一個最新的參考數據所以結果是證明說以果醣酸當釀造醬油的關鍵判定指標它是存在有這個特異度高靈敏度不到七成的問題"},{"start":694.259,"end":716.733,"text":"所以我想今天整個質詢我必須點出這個那全世界也都沒有其他國家有做這樣的規定所以除非你們有最新的數據支持不然我們要貿然去改變這樣的一個標示一定要有很明確的目的跟依據不然你們就是為了管制而管制了那除了增加業者的成本"},{"start":717.954,"end":737.633,"text":"也是就是說業者提高了這個醬油的價格然後到頭來最後傷害的還是我們民眾的荷包甚至影響到物價上揚所以我最後請就請你們就是說醬油製就是說這個醬油製造為釀造醬油以果醣酸為標示重新檢討那並於這個"},{"start":740.416,"end":754.866,"text":"就是說我讓你們有很長的時間六個月一年都可以你們就是好好研究然後提出報告之後再來做這個定論好不好好謝謝委員我們再去進一步的研究分析謝謝謝謝謝謝陳委員謝謝署長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1280,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時38分）好，謝謝主席。麻煩請食藥署姜署長，部長先休息一下。"],["姜署長至剛：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：署長好。在你們所屬的業務內有一個包裝醬油製程的標示規定，目前醬油的標示規定大概分成了這幾類，有速成醬油、水解醬油、混合調和醬油跟釀造醬油。我想請教的就是，在這四種類別的醬油裡面，哪一種類別的醬油售價是最高的？"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，很久沒有買醬油，我用猜的好了，應該是釀造醬油，因為是最傳統的古法。"],["陳委員瑩：好，你真的蠻聰明的，確實是釀造醬油的價格最高。因為雖然這幾種醬油的原料都相同，但是釀造的時間最長，時間就是金錢，所以釀造醬油是售價最高的。我再請教你，你那麼聰明，你再猜猜看，在這四個類別裡面，目前市面上有一個類別已經是不存在的，你知道是哪個類別嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：我猜是右下角的速成醬油。"],["陳委員瑩：對，果然能夠當食藥署署長，頭腦還是不簡單。確實速成醬油在市面上是已經不存在很久的事情，現在我要請教這麼聰明的食藥署署長，請問既然是已經不存在的類別，為什麼你們類別裡面現在還存在這樣子的一個分類？你是要繼續保存呢？還是對於這個已經不存在的，你們要把它拿掉？"],["姜署長至剛：這個容我回去檢討一下它的必要性之後，再跟委員做進一步報告。"],["陳委員瑩：好，你那麼聰明，應該知道要怎麼做啦，這個就已經沒有了。","再來，過去衛福部在109年曾經有一項醬油產品監測委託辦理計畫，雖然當時您不是食藥署署長，但是這份報告對於現階段的包裝醬油製程之標示規定有很重要的參考價值，我想了解的是，你們後來有沒有新的執行計畫或報告出來？"],["姜署長至剛：這個計畫之後是沒有再進行另外的計畫。"],["陳委員瑩：好，那就是維持原來的，就是沒有新的嘛？"],["姜署長至剛：是的。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我記得在這份報告裡面，其實我們主要是要解決是否以果糖酸低於0.1%作為標示釀造醬油的依據，我們來看一下檢測結果，在108件我們國產的釀造醬油裡面，全部都沒有檢測到果糖酸，在29件國外輸入的樣本裡面，有27件未檢出，有1件是低於0.1%，只有1件是超標的，這樣的結果顯示出我們臺灣自己生產的釀造醬油都很棒、都沒有問題，可是如果因此我們卻要要求這些釀造醬油廠商必須自己去標示他們都沒有果糖酸的含量，或者是果糖酸低於0.1%，除了增加檢測的成本之外，他們的標示也要全部都改，我想這是一個不太合理的要求啦，因為通常要人家主動證明沒有的東西，就好像一個無罪的人要證明自己的清白，我想一般大家都是無罪推論，若有罪，你就是要提出證據嘛，所以我想這樣的行政規定，我不曉得合不合理，不知道署長的看法為何？"],["姜署長至剛：就果糖酸的部分，我看這個圖表，之前我們同仁們在這個報告裡面有特別跟我報告過，因為食品安全還是以科學分析為基礎，如果我在管制上面用0.1%，它能夠涵蓋的解釋度大概是92%，所以會有造成一些影響，雖然說我們國內的醬油是用0.1%的話，釀造醬油的確都是符合的，但是如果是這樣切下去就會產生一個效果，就是……"],["陳委員瑩：我想後續、接下來已經開始慢慢要進入到我們會去討論到靈敏度跟特異度的問題。在這份報告裡面的結果也有顯示，有另外兩種的水解跟調合醬油，我們再繼續看，29個水解醬油有8個是果糖酸未檢出或低於0.1%；29個調合醬油有10個是未檢出或低於0.1%，所以如果以果糖酸作為標示釀造醬油的關鍵指標，那我們來看，18個水解跟調合醬油可不可以標示為釀造醬油？因為這個數據這樣子顯示，我們反過來講嘛，如果它可以標示，如果規定是這樣，那它標示了釀造醬油，這個價格馬上就翻倍了啊！剛剛署長馬上就猜釀造醬油應該是最貴的，現在大家都知道了，本來或許這些業者也沒有想要標示為釀造醬油的意圖，但是如果你們強制做了這樣的規定之後，漏洞出來了喔，他們反而可以違反規定，就是讓價格翻倍，也會變成是沒有違規的問題了，我在這裡特別提出這樣子的推論，不知道署長認不認同？"],["姜署長至剛：委員講得非常精準，因為就我們市場稽查的時候，如果以這個標準去稽查，的確一線切下來，小於0.1%的如果標示說它是釀造的，我們很難去做後續判斷它是真的釀造或者不是……"],["陳委員瑩：所以我現在特別點出這樣子的問題，看來食藥署都有弄懂了，我想問題的本質在於沒有的，你們要人家自己去證明自己沒有，反而開了一扇門，讓這些可能未來變成有機會不違規的去做不正確的標示。我也是有點想不通，這樣子去改變醬油的標示不曉得這個意義到底在哪裡，除了增加成本、給出模糊的空間以外，到底還有什麼有利於民眾的好處？有嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：目前我們針對這個議題是持續在研議，也邀請一些專家委員來協助我們，的確果糖酸單一的……很困難當作是一個判斷的基準。"],["陳委員瑩：因為我們每天有這麼多人在吃醬油，現在是這樣，我舉個例子好了，就像早期紅標米酒的原料，應該不是早期啦，我是說紅標米酒的原料也有摻入食品級鹽酸，經過發酵、蒸餾之後就完全去除了，難道我們也一樣要要求紅標米酒變成鹽酸米酒嗎？若變成鹽酸米酒，我想大家看了這個字眼應該都不敢買了吧！","監察院110年8月23號的函文有特別提醒你們說，食品安全衛生管理法第二十八條第一項規定，食品標示不得有不實、誇張或易生誤解之情形。所以我拿監察院特別再提醒你們的這個條文，再提醒你們一次，因為在水解過程中使用鹽酸，醬油販售、成為商品之後，它也就都沒有鹽酸了，還要要求廠商來標示鹽酸水解醬油或者酸水解醬油，我覺得這個是讓民眾看了會卻步的事情，所以這樣子的要求其實是很擾民的啦！署長你新上任，你就大力要來支持這樣子的一個規定？還是說你有什麼樣比較合理的想法跟看法？因為我很怕你們被逼著違法。"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，不管是我們的鹽酸，或者我們之前其他的叫做酸鹼平衡裡面的氫氧化鈉，都是所謂的加工助劑，加工助劑在國際間的規範，在標示的部分其實是沒有強制這樣子的標示，的確是如委員所說的，化學反應之後，最後它其實是沒有鹽酸的存在。"],["陳委員瑩：沒有就不用再要求人家寫了吧！我想本席是絕對會支持我們要有正確的標示還有關鍵指標的建立。署長，你又是臺大醫學院的教授，好的指標必須同時要符合我剛剛前面講的，靈敏度跟特異度都要高，同時都要高，所以這份報告在你們沒有新的數據出來之前，我們現在有的也就是一個最新的參考數據，所以結果是證明說，以果糖酸當釀造醬油的關鍵判定指標，它是存在有特異度高、靈敏度不到七成的問題，所以我想今天整個質詢我必須點出這個部分，全世界也都沒有其他國家有做這樣的規定，除非你們有最新的數據支持，不然我們要貿然去改變這樣的標示，一定要有很明確的目的和依據，否則你們就是為了管制而管制。除了增加業者的成本，業者提高了醬油的價格，到頭來最後傷害的還是民眾的荷包，甚至影響到物價上揚。","最後，請你們對於醬油製造未釀造醬油以果糖酸為標示重新檢討，我讓你們有很長的時間，6個月、1年都可以，你們就是好好研究，然後提出報告，之後再來作定論，好不好？"],["姜署長至剛：好，謝謝委員，我們帶回去進一步研究分析，謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝署長。","本日會議詢答全部結束，委員陳永康、楊曜、廖偉翔、盧縣一所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員陳永康書面質詢：","一、本席認為，我國基於特殊國情，一直需要建構比其他國家強度更高的國家安全戰略能量，以保安康，即使眼前最緊要的國安議題為如何因應全球關稅戰，但國安方面的常態性工作，也必須日有精進，不可因關稅戰而影響其進度。對於現行措施中有所缺漏，必須建置與補強者，不可因此怠忽，因此特就醫療體系於面臨重大災變與戰爭時應儲備之能量，就教於行政院。","二、本次南部災後，大家都體驗到斷電帶給廣大民眾生活上的具大不便，卻忽略一個更重要的問題：醫療體系在面臨這一種強度，甚至更高強度的緊急狀態時可以維持多少功能？由於本次風災並未直接造成太多民眾傷損，因此並未在短期內爆發就醫潮，且重大醫療院所多半位居都會區，電力基礎設施本就有較佳防護，受損並不嚴重，因此尚未傳出重大醫療失能（第一波挑戰可能會出現在一週後的登革熱爆發或是腸病毒流行）。但是如果將這個場景切換成「戰爭」情境，將會完全不同。","三、首先，戰爭期間，電力設施、通信設施及給水系統會在第一時間首遭精準破壞，這三種關鍵基礎設施是維持醫療體系正常運作的重中之重，藥品、血液的儲存，加護病房及一般開刀房的運作，傷患的基礎衛生工作，全面性醫療資源調度，也都要靠這些系統維持運作才能確保。其次，戰爭期間會發生大量傷亡，傷患安置及屍體處理也都依賴這三種系統正常運作。第三，戰爭期間必然發生的疫情蔓延及新增的公衛需求，仍然依賴這三種系統正常運作。這些「超越常態」的要求，是強化防衛韌性過程中必須攻克的科目。我們從這次風災中可以看出，一旦發生此種情境，恐怕很難再從中央政府或是民間取得額外援助，必須自立更生，因此將「非常態能量的儲備預置入常態儲備」，是醫療系統必須逐漸建立的效能。","四、經本席瞭解，目前仍有諸多尚待改進之處，特此提供行政院參考精進：","1.醫療院所增設自主發電設備（包括發電機、儲油槽）方面：設置容量應訂為多少小時？發電機及儲油槽設置應注意工程重點及消防標準？戰爭期間自主發電設備最可能被攻擊樣態及最安全樣態？凡此皆須國防部及消防署立即提供專業規格需求清單，俾衛福部援以建立工作計畫。","2.目前衛福部將緊急醫療的管理列入醫院評鑑項目，而評鑑項目限於「醫療機構環境安全諮詢計畫」，且偏重火災事件之排除，諮詢合作對象為澳洲評鑑機構（ACHSI），並非以戰地醫療專業著稱。而上述國安狀態下之醫療需求，則另成立「強化韌性」單位，並未達到將「非常態能量的儲備預置入常態儲備」的要求，日後必會發生指揮紊亂現象，宜予以統一管理。","3.相關計畫涉及專業人力培訓，此為當務之急，宜結合軍民能量，有效銜接統籌。"],["委員楊曜書面質詢：","壹、如何持續精進災難醫療救護隊制度之法源依據是否不明確？","問題：2000年，當時的衛生署成立國家級災難醫療救護隊，北部設在台大醫院、南部設在成大醫院，後來醫院評鑑要求重度級急救責任醫院都必須成立區域級災難醫療救護隊，由縣市衛生局指揮。媒體報導，有醫師表示，《緊急醫療救護法》規定「遇緊急傷病或大量病患救護，或為協助其轉診服務救災救護指揮中心得派遣當地醫院救護車及救護人員出勤，醫院不得無故拒絕」，但並非特別針對災難醫療救護隊，目前災難醫療救護隊的人員組成、指揮調度、啟動機制、經費來源、出勤人員的保險、後勤支援等，其實並沒有明確的法源依據，該醫師更進一步表示：「先前曾以災難醫療救護隊的身分，前進地震災區救災，理應受消防局指揮，不過到了現場，衛生局又有權調度醫護人員，究竟現場指揮權由誰主導？如果有專法，是否可建立制度？」對此，衛福部如何災難醫療救護隊制度運作之法源依據研議精進措施並提出修法草案？又綜觀衛福部災難醫療救護訓練中心各區域訓練課程，主要仍以醫療體系為主，但現今災難發生時多為複合式災難，需要與其他行政機關聯繫溝通，以確保災難發生時，災難醫療體系能運作順暢，為此，請教衛福部，各區緊急醫療應變中心是否與其他行政機關建立聯繫平台，並透過定期演練，確保溝通順暢？","貳、勞動力發展署創客基地如何結合在地產業提升產值並創新？","問題：澎湖縣是觀光地區，在澎湖創客基地成立之初，我認為，創客基地應與澎湖觀光產業做結合，催生澎湖特產的新風貌，然創客基地成立逾7個年頭，始終無法有具體成果呈現，本席認為，創客基地的理念與政府審計預算，二者概念存在是有衝突性的─創意的發想，被政府關鍵績效指標給扼殺了，但政府覈實預算執行卻是行政機關的責任，因此，本席要求勞動力發展署，二個月內研議，提出創客基地轉型方案供本席參考。","參、台美關稅公布在即，國人將焦點放在美豬美牛內臟的進口管制放寬等議題。","問題：1、未來若美豬美牛比照聯合國國際食品法典委員會(CODEX)所制訂的萊克多巴胺的殘留標準擴大進口量，衛福部會如何把關食安，保障民眾健康？","2、請教衛福部，我國針對美豬美牛的檢測方式是否符合國際標準？以及未來若真的放寬至國際標準，衛福部是否會針對美豬美牛再做一次健康風險評估，依據科學根據向社會大眾說明政府把關食安的決心？"],["委員廖偉翔書面質詢：","案由：鑒於近期台美關稅談判前景不明，且相較於世界各大主要經濟體，台美的關稅談判遲遲沒有結果。據媒體報導，我國有意用開放美國牛內臟與絞肉進口，並放寬美豬萊克多巴胺劑容許量，做為爭取美方降低晶片關稅的籌碼，引發各界用食安換經濟的質疑。為確保國民食品安全不受影響，爰向衛福部提出書面質詢。","說明：","1.台美關稅談判下，有無壓力調整現行進口食品（如含萊劑美豬、美牛、基因改造食品）查驗及風險管理標準？若有此傾向，近期是否曾針對美牛內臟、絞肉等高風險品項進行新一輪風險評估？評估結果為何？是否有依此標準，表達立場，向行政院或經濟部建議之？","2.國際貿易談判一向講求現實主義，於美大台小之情況下，也致使各界屢生「用食安換經濟」的質疑。故退一步言之，若真的不幸將開放品項與降低瘦肉精標準，依然需要邊境抽檢之執行。試問衛福部，談判結果如導致某些高風險食品大幅增加進口，食藥署在預警、抽驗、資訊公告等機制上有無新因應措施？","3.對於萊豬、萊牛進入校園，遭到許多家長反對。故台中市率先訂定《台中市學校午餐自治條例》，雖遭遭行政院函告規定屬無效，但經台中市政府提起訴訟後，在今年初最高行政法院審理後認定，現行學校午餐業務法源主要依據為《學校衛生法》，依《學校衛生法》第23條第3項規定立法意旨，明定學校供應膳食，應優先採用中央農業主管機關認證的在地優良農業產品，因此地方自治團體在不牴觸中央法規範圍內，訂定自治條例要求學校提供午餐「不得使用肉品原料來源非國產之各式肉類加工品」，合乎《學校衛生法》的立法意旨，未違反中央法令，最終定讞。簡言之，未來若邊境進口加大開放力度，可預見各縣市將依此模式，立法將萊豬、萊牛禁入校園。對此，衛福部立場為何？若遭美方反彈，又該如何因應，以守住這最後食安堡壘，並調和外部貿易與國內法院判決之矛盾？"],["委員盧縣一書面質詢：","請問：","衛福部對於：屏東恆春半島地處台灣最南端，涵蓋恆春、滿州、牡丹、車城、枋山、獅子等多個鄉鎮，更肩負台東南端地區之急重症照護任務，屏東、台東醫療需求龐大卻醫療資源匱乏，在地民眾就醫困難重重。近年來有規劃哪些提升改善措施？"],["主席：現在作以下宣告：報告及詢答完畢，委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，相關機關於兩週內以書面答復，委員另行要求期限者，從其所定。","本日會議到此結束，現在散會。","散會（12時51分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-21","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","涂權吉","賴惠員","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","陳冠廷","劉建國","黃秀芳","林月琴","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","王正旭","陳瑩","陳永康","楊曜","廖偉翔","盧縣一"],"page_start":325,"meetingDate":["2025-07-17"],"gazette_id":"1146701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部部長、財政部部長、農業部針對「因應嚴重災情、緊急重大事件，\n醫療院所承擔救護量能困境及因應台美關稅談判對台灣食品安全相關影響」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1146701_00006"}}}