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1079.546, \"text\": \"會依照環評法最後的結論它要求我們目的使者決定要做追蹤的部分模擬業者所以並沒有全部嗎沒有它環評法最後的結論要我們追蹤什麼我們就會把追蹤的結果報到環境部去就是依它的最後的結論就是我們就依照結論來辦\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"依\", \"start\": 1063.233, \"end\": 1063.513, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 1063.513, \"end\": 1064.233, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"環\"}, {\"word\": \"評\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 1064.233, \"end\": 1064.454, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 1064.454, \"end\": 1064.594, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 1064.594, \"end\": 1064.754, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1064.754, \"end\": 1065.815, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 1065.815, \"end\": 1065.935, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1065.935, \"end\": 1066.175, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"求\", \"start\": 1066.175, \"end\": 1066.375, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1066.375, \"end\": 1066.695, \"score\": 0.937}, 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\"你\", \"start\": 1208.792, \"end\": 1208.812, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1208.812, \"end\": 1208.912, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 1208.912, \"end\": 1209.012, \"score\": 0.198}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 1209.012, \"end\": 1209.032, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"策\", \"start\": 1209.032, \"end\": 1209.052, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1209.052, \"end\": 1209.192, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"跳\", \"start\": 1209.192, \"end\": 1209.212, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 1209.212, \"end\": 1209.232, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"太\", \"start\": 1209.232, \"end\": 1209.252, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"快\", \"start\": 1209.252, \"end\": 1209.352, \"score\": 0.783}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 1209.352, \"end\": 1209.372, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 1220.68, \"end\": 1234.705, \"text\": \"那這個會不會影響民眾真的喔 就是你們政府的能源政策錯誤喔就會被導入這個狀態然後你跟他講說我已經花了五千六百億他還是聽不懂你花了五千六百億你怎麼還是讓我家的電信桿全部倒了還讓台電員工將近兩個禮拜不眠不休的倒入\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1220.68, \"end\": 1221.12, \"score\": 0.644}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1221.12, \"end\": 1221.26, \"score\": 0.647}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"影\", \"start\": 1221.26, \"end\": 1221.56, \"score\": 0.698}, {\"word\": \"響\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 1221.56, \"end\": 1222.14, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"眾\"}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 1222.14, \"end\": 1222.301, \"score\": 0.723}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1222.301, \"end\": 1222.421, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"喔\", \"start\": 1222.421, \"end\": 1222.541, \"score\": 0.696}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1222.541, \"end\": 1222.681, \"score\": 0.727}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1222.681, \"end\": 1222.841, \"score\": 0.772}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1222.841, \"end\": 1223.241, \"score\": 0.735}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, 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00:00:43,494\n好本星鄉針對這個極端氣候衝擊再生能源設施中央是放手地方無力造成災害好我們來看這一次的丹奈斯颱風這個是從嘉義縣登陸造成的嘉義縣這120年來的一個災情慘重那也多達了70億萬戶的停電但這凸顯了我極端氣候下我的氣候風險\n\n3\n00:00:56,599 --> 00:01:12,698\n所带来的一个电力的一个韧性的因应其实是相对要更高的一个标准好我们看这个丹纳斯台风的光电跟电场本席针对这样的极端气候所造成的光\n\n4\n00:01:13,519 --> 00:01:19,682\n電廠當中來做一個討論那在這次颱風當中光電廠是14個案其中這4個案大的電廠的4個案都在滯洪池上小型案場10個而這個災損呢只要在這個災損的部分在光電廠是沒有人好在沒有人傷亡但是設施是有損害的那風電廠是完全沒有災損就是在設備上也沒有\n\n5\n00:01:42,571 --> 00:02:06,508\n好那我們看發電量這次的光電廠的一個發電量的損失的總裝置容量到32.62MW也就是每天損失將近高峰用電的11.2萬噸我光是這個清台所造成的一個高峰用電量就11.2萬噸的損失這是你經濟部能源署所提供的數據喔\n\n6\n00:02:07,509 --> 00:02:26,188\n好那本席啊這個在前兩次我已經質詢過了就是台電應該以綜合電業方式繼續經營確保民生穩定而這當中這一次的質詢第二次的這個質詢當中有去講到再次第二次的去提到人員署應該建立\n\n7\n00:02:27,289 --> 00:02:45,435\n評估建立再生人員場域各級數據的監理機制並且規劃台電場域先行試辦以利後續的推動要求到民營電廠那到底有沒有呢剛才聽到我們謝映峰找回他質詢的他講得非常的好你們根本沒有工具\n\n8\n00:02:46,275 --> 00:02:59,108\n你的工具在哪裡你說要科學的監理哪裡有好等一下我再講說你們的科學監理好所以這次是再生人員沒有環境數據的監理機制也就沒有預宣防災的判斷作為好我剛才就講到說這次發生的都在制洪池上\n\n9\n00:03:08,797 --> 00:03:10,678\n為什麼我光電廠會沒有摘損因為他的他已經有個機制了只要封到什麼極速的時候他就鎖住了他不會再做風力的運轉但是這一次在水域當中的這個光電廠怎麼樣\n\n10\n00:03:26,524 --> 00:03:50,358\n風力到什麼極致的時候我智鴻池上的光電廠我應該做怎麼樣的保護譬如說我應該做電纜相關的那個矽電纜是不是應該加強或矽纜要做加強類似這樣的機制我們是沒有所以你在這個環境再生人員場域各級數據的監理機制當中其實是有缺失的\n\n11\n00:03:51,278 --> 00:04:05,829\n好那再生人員場域的數據監理機制台電公司回覆給本席的我這邊都是你們的文字台電公司已經建立相關的管理架構跟運作規模其實這是人員署管你們人員署就說好那台電來管\n\n12\n00:04:09,852 --> 00:04:31,647\n那我也講到這個能源署是有公權力的他不管你叫台電先是先行要台電去管全國的那不可能他沒有公權力所以他維護給本席的台電公司已經進入相關的管理架構跟這個運作模式了涵蓋配電級跟輸電級的各再生能源數據的監控跟管理所以才確保各再生能源的穩定並往跟電往所以台電只重視什麼\n\n13\n00:04:40,172 --> 00:04:57,377\n發電跟設備這本來就是他的專業啊他的專業在哪裡他的專業不在於我是不是自然環境的變化因素會影響我的發電跟設備的關聯性重點是這個所以你的監理機制跟管理機制是只管發電跟設備\n\n14\n00:04:59,477 --> 00:05:20,608\n我們期待的剛才歷任的包括剛才昭緯所講的我們的風水陣會不會怎麼影響我的發電跟市面你是沒有辦法做監理跟管理的好那你們的回文是這樣啦台電的監控之管理其實都是以電力出發這是本席爬梳出來你們的缺失\n\n15\n00:05:21,969 --> 00:05:38,755\n不能說缺失啦就應該在經濟的部分而非環境影響為優先你們的監控機制回文叫什麼依台電公司啊等等等等這麼長的一個原則要求再生林園廠將資料回傳至調度中心喔這個資料中心只包括什麼資料只有氣象資料我這個是光電廠我只有收集這個太陽光\n\n16\n00:05:45,658 --> 00:05:54,324\n那太陽光當中的光電廠你只收集太陽光那你有沒有想到我的有效日照有效日照我降雨會不會影響有效日照我風力會不會影響這個光電廠的設備我的強震跟強風會不會影響這個光電廠的各項的結構安全\n\n17\n00:06:05,572 --> 00:06:20,691\n其實是沒有的部長其實這個我要凸顯出來讓你了解這個的嚴重性我就是因為光天我只收集光那之前的其他的這個降雨啦風力啦強震啦等環境因素就沒有了所以你就沒有這個工具去做判斷\n\n18\n00:06:22,333 --> 00:06:41,389\n那你的監理機制當中除了氣象資料的單項之外其他的都是電力了什麼有效電力瞬間值無效電力瞬間值這本來就是台電他的強項那這個東西跟我的環境影響跟我的電力有沒有關聯沒有那你的管理機制台電只做到什麼\n\n19\n00:06:41,869 --> 00:07:06,007\n他說我要求了各再生能源廠裝置相關的電力保護措施我怎麼保護電力嘛如果遇到強大我怎麼保護電力所以呢他這邊講的就比如說電壓控制頻率響應及故障穿越能力其實還是一樣他還是講電所以相關的監理跟管理都是以電為出發缺乏電廠安全跟環境影響進行科學管理好\n\n20\n00:07:09,810 --> 00:07:15,233\n我們再來看青苔這邊已經形成青苔的丹納斯風災它形成了範圍性的天然災害也凸顯再生人員不是僅有電力供應應該被管理好我們來看這幾個盲點台電公司的管理機制都是僅針對電力供應本身過去的台電都是單一電廠獨立作業\n\n21\n00:07:37,005 --> 00:07:57,938\n他具備完整的應變能力這其實是真的要感謝台電他怎麼樣的完整的應變能力他這次當中更凸顯了還有充足的備品隨時待命的輪值人員緊急應變的機制這更是對於我們的民營再生人員廠有沒有這些東西沒有\n\n22\n00:07:58,968 --> 00:08:02,370\n我們是沒有的喔所以綠能電廠是分散場域而且是基礎設施收拾未完善的地點譬如說我們都是要農業貧瘠之地啦或者是相關的地處偏遠啦所以在這些民營當中的地點這樣的一個特性之外我缺乏人員駐點應變我沒有這些民營是沒有人員駐點的喔\n\n23\n00:08:26,207 --> 00:08:50,922\n那更不要說他對生態環境及水土保持可能會有影響的多項變數在綠能電廠是完全沒有好那我能源署你不應該核准後就任由民營電廠自行管制我已經質詢兩次了其實你應該要這個能源電廠你說環境部各自的電廠做要核准你要做環境影響評估做完之後就沒事了\n\n24\n00:08:51,943 --> 00:08:54,865\n本席希望的是你要統籌這些電廠的環境影響評估之後的數據人員數做全國的統籌之後隨時的調整之後你20年期到了你要做換證要做延展了你是不是要做一下評估一下我要延展我的我的氣候條件極端氣候條件什麼的變化我應該怎麼樣的各個\n\n25\n00:09:18,002 --> 00:09:46,095\n設施當中我應該要怎麼的再加嚴的要求呢所以我期待的就是你的環境影響評估每個民營電廠都花了那麼多錢做但是呢做完之後就沒事了繳報告給環境部就可以了之後沒有誰要來做監理你要去環境部去監理你的電廠嗎不可能啊那你只有人員署啊你不能拋給台電台電哪有能力去管所有民營電廠跟地方政府\n\n26\n00:09:46,755 --> 00:10:11,493\n不可能所以能源這個能源署就應該是要統籌所有民營電廠的一個整個的這個數據的監控跟管理那地方政府本身沒有電力專業啊那台電又不具公權力啊所以能源署你現在不收集掌握資料就無法做決策的參考現在也無法面對問題之外你未來也不能調整20年期滿的電廠展延機制\n\n27\n00:10:15,176 --> 00:10:19,498\n我們在兼顧再生人員與居民用電這邊本席有一個要求全國區域電網骨幹的電力韌性我們投入了5600億但這次風災凸顯了電網末端輸送電網末端輸送遭遇極端氣候時的脆弱所以請經濟部盤點全國區域地理特性\n\n28\n00:10:42,225 --> 00:10:58,986\n因地制宜規劃電網方案並納入行政院的二次人員轉型這是按照媒體講因為我不曉得你的二次人員轉型的細部計畫是什麼我只看你爆派的你的二次人員轉型包含的是多元綠能深度節能\n\n29\n00:11:01,308 --> 00:11:26,277\n儲能技術應用核能安全本席要求你要把這樣的一個末端電網電網末端輸送的這個方案納入二次電網要全國區域性喔靠山靠海靠城市靠偏鄉這個全國你比如說雲嘉南這次最重他全部都平延他的這個區域特性的結果你的電網規劃是什麼\n\n30\n00:11:28,138 --> 00:11:57,242\n那如果針對我們三區包括我高雄市三區這個是面積幾乎佔了我的高雄的一半以上那你這個部分它的電網又要怎麼的規劃所以你在這個電網末端尤其它是對我民生是最急切的你們之前5600億是在全國的區域電網主幹線當中的電力網絡但是在這個末端跟我民生最主要最有感的電力的輸送\n\n31\n00:11:57,802 --> 00:12:14,859\n你們有沒有規劃沒有所以本席要求這個部分你要重新的來重視而且納入二次能源的轉型因為要經費啊這個要經費啊你不能全部都給地方全部給台電那台電又更是更要倒了那最後本席具體要求\n\n32\n00:12:16,860 --> 00:12:43,789\n對於這個再生能源安全性的穩定性的強烈主張所以要求兩件事情要求經濟部能源署檢討更新你的再生能源場域各級數據的監理機制第二個規劃電網末端輸送的電網韌性方案這是新的方案那以維持再生能源跟我居民安全居民的用電安全這是雙重保障所以部長你怎麼看\n\n33\n00:12:44,893 --> 00:13:03,904\n報告委員我想你所垂詢的這一個部分我們都有在檢討那這一次的這個我想因為氣候變遷造成的這一次比較嚴重的傷害也是我們一個學習的樣本那我們會以這一些比較脆弱的部分我們會來強化我想這一次的這個經驗\n\n34\n00:13:05,385 --> 00:13:31,502\n我們會把所有的結構剛才你在垂詢的包括floating的這個系統確實在結構上面我們過去雖然有技師簽證過但是還是沒有辦法耐到時機急風所以我們會從這個上面來學習將來會把這些東西全部都來強化我希望能夠達到讓所有的用電戶能夠跟使用電的這個部分沒有斷電的這樣的一個\n\n35\n00:13:34,403 --> 00:13:46,428\n疑慮這樣的一個困擾往前往前部長我想的我不是只有針對floating的部分來來往前往前這個不能動好再往前好這個\n\n36\n00:13:48,005 --> 00:14:15,446\n我講的不是只有針對那個滯洪池喔我說以光電廠為例主要收集的是有效日照你光是你的數據跟管理你本身就要做調整跟增加了嘛我們會來這個考慮因為現在極端氣候嘛造成的這個變異非常的大那我們會來做這一方面的強化所以這樣的這個你們的這個管理跟監控機制的數據你們這是有發文的喔有真的是這個你們為什麼不動啊\n\n37\n00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:27,056\n目前的監控機制是有這個環境部他們在做啦那我們會來討論到底哪個部分要再加強這個機制不是環境部喔是人員署喔人員署講個話吧\n\n38\n00:14:29,384 --> 00:14:54,790\n還是台電自己發布的我跟委員報告那個剛剛講的那幾塊因為涉及到電力調度的部分因為台電必須要知道說那個附近區域他到底光源可以發的怎麼樣所以台電他在每一天前一天他都會做一些預測所以他必須要要求說那些數據要可以提供給台電做調度\n\n39\n00:14:55,950 --> 00:15:20,480\n簡單啦你要不要更新你這樣的再生人員場域各級數據管理機制這個是你們的一個對這個部分我們會再跟台電檢討說這個後續要怎麼樣但是也跟委員澄清一下那個環評的部分環評的部分只要做完環評環境部就會去做監督那我們的演員署就會負責追蹤這個是法令上規定我們這個已經大概做了二十幾年了跟委員補充報告一下\n\n40\n00:15:20,540 --> 00:15:36,745\n追蹤啊所以那你追蹤當中有做數據的分析嗎有那個數據我們有問那其實是你主責還是環境部主責追蹤的部分我們會把數據整理出來以後會將結果報到環境部所以這是錯的嘛沒有法規是這樣規定的那你要調整法規啊你這個法規是\n\n41\n00:15:40,706 --> 00:15:46,427\n所以在給環境部的話也就是說今天啊風大雨大會影響電力那是環境部來告訴你嗎還是你自己主張兩個電廠是你主責所以呢我這個數據呈現之後所以你應該要做什麼樣的因應所以這就是你們兩個部門的矛盾點啦當然是你人員人員數啊所以你再繼續對那這個法你可以改啊\n\n42\n00:16:10,100 --> 00:16:13,542\n我是點問題我不講反正最後罵的是你但是本席最在意的是罵的是本執政黨罵的是本執政黨啊你這個電廠的數據你推給環境部環境部收到這個數據之後他說對電廠會有什麼的衝擊然後他再告訴你你不是多此一舉嗎\n\n43\n00:16:33,464 --> 00:16:39,867\n所以數據的分析跟你相關設備的這個因應的機制當然是你數據的分析包括日照我說光是一個光電廠光是它的下雨就會影響日照它的風力也會影響你的基礎結構包括你的強震包括都會影響結構這結構有你的土木結構你的建築的你的這個設備的結構都會影響啊\n\n44\n00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:03,881\n那就算這個數據不是你分析嗎它只呈現這個數據而已啊我要說兩件事了有關\n\n45\n00:17:12,790 --> 00:17:40,548\n這個電廠的營運的部分的資料我們自己會分析那個我們也會tag那不足的部分我們會檢討那這是委員說的第一塊第二塊有關環境監測數據是當初環境部它在環境影響評估審查的結論那個部分我們必須要報依環境影響評估法報到環境部去環境部就最後所以這是兩塊事情環境影響評估內的所有的數據你的環評所做的所有數據你都有百分百的監控嗎\n\n46\n00:17:43,233 --> 00:17:59,546\n會依照環評法最後的結論它要求我們目的使者決定要做追蹤的部分模擬業者所以並沒有全部嗎沒有它環評法最後的結論要我們追蹤什麼我們就會把追蹤的結果報到環境部去就是依它的最後的結論就是我們就依照結論來辦\n\n47\n00:18:01,227 --> 00:18:21,621\n對你的結論就是說你有掌握在一個是你的結論的數據有沒有去做分析第一個是你的結論有沒有只是依法嘛那有沒有需要增加也許他業者做了10項但是你最後監控的只有6項好你依照規定的是6項可是你發現到我其實是要這10項我全部都要繼續監控的喔好第二個這個監控的彼此之間的關係我的這個對\n\n48\n00:18:26,364 --> 00:18:51,812\n自然資源再生能源是來自天然資源啊所以天然資源對於這個你這個整個風場整體風場的影響這才是你主責我在意的是你的數據的完備性跟你的這個影響的這個數據的交叉的分析這才是重點這才叫做科學管理啊科學數據科學管理啊你要做到這點那是不是要檢討呢有沒有檢討的必要我應該是說我們運轉數據的那些項目是不是\n\n49\n00:18:55,396 --> 00:18:59,561\n是不是要檢討啊這個部分我們好那就是如果你要檢討你要多久\n\n50\n00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:15,267\n你就能夠要去更新你的再生人員場域更新數據的監理機制啊跟委員報告一下這個因為我們現在像太陽光店鋒利這些我們其實都會隨著這個環境變遷去持續做檢討所以這個需要一點時間這個我們到時候檢討完會跟委員報告好OK沒問題我也不逼你時間再來你的電網末端輸送的電網任性這個是台電講的話\n\n51\n00:19:28,072 --> 00:19:55,002\n向委員報告那因為這次我們也看到風災造成的這個災害這個災害的情境跟以往完全不一樣就是十六、十七級風所以這個部分對於如何強化我們的我們有分短期、中期、長期都會做一些因應那部長有一些指示那我們會盡速來辦理你對於本席講的電網末端輸送我最在意這個因為這跟我民生最有關係是的\n\n52\n00:19:55,702 --> 00:20:09,372\n對我們不管你那個你花了五千六百億我跟你講人民是無感的但是對於你我都知這個是很重要的但是現在對人民最有感的就是我的跟我民生最末端的那個電網的一個脆弱性才是讓我民眾對於政府覺得非常的不信任就會導致說這個是你的人員政策就會跳得太快了\n\n53\n00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:34,705\n那這個會不會影響民眾真的喔就是你們政府的能源政策錯誤喔就會被導入這個狀態然後你跟他講說我已經花了五千六百億他還是聽不懂你花了五千六百億你怎麼還是讓我家的電信桿全部倒了還讓台電員工將近兩個禮拜不眠不休的倒入\n\n54\n00:20:39,426 --> 00:20:43,548\n那你那5600億花在哪裡我現在的質詢方法叫做反對黨的質詢方法但我相信這個是誤導式的質詢方法那民眾聽得下去聽不下去絕對聽得下去因為你花了5600億可是這5600億不是花在跟我民生最有關係的電網末端嘛就是我家前面那個電線港你不能倒啊因為一倒就是影響到我家人民在意的是這個啊\n\n55\n00:21:05,876 --> 00:21:09,101\n那這個我希望你對於全國性做個盤點做一個專案也許這個整個你盤點完後出來需要3000億比如說\n\n56\n00:21:14,966 --> 00:21:41,728\n我認為這是新的從雲加南當中這是新的方案而且是靠山靠海靠水不管靠山靠海或者城鄉之間這才是新的話本席講的這個是新的方案所以你覺得這個是不是應該你要去想一下評估一下這個是應該啟動這樣的一個電網末端的輸送方案才對啊是我們會評估因為部長有指示我們會評估整個短中長期都會出來好謝謝\n\n57\n00:21:43,882 --> 00:21:47,191\n好谢谢我们现在请陈婷飞\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8117\t19267\t好 現在請呂玉玲委員做詢答 呂玉玲委員 呂玉玲委員不在現在請林黛樺委員做詢答有請郭部長 郭部長\n27688\t43494\t好 本星鄉針對這個極端氣候衝擊再生能源設施中央是放手地方無力造成災害好 我們來看這一次的丹奈斯颱風這個是從嘉義縣登陸造成的嘉義縣這120年來的一個災情慘重那也多達了70億萬戶的停電但這凸顯了我極端氣候下我的氣候風險\n56599\t72698\t所带来的一个电力的一个韧性的因应其实是相对要更高的一个标准好我们看这个丹纳斯台风的光电跟电场本席针对这样的极端气候所造成的光\n73519\t79682\t電廠當中來做一個討論那在這次颱風當中光電廠是14個案其中這4個案大的電廠的4個案都在滯洪池上小型案場10個而這個災損呢只要在這個災損的部分在光電廠是沒有人好在沒有人傷亡但是設施是有損害的那風電廠是完全沒有災損就是在設備上也沒有\n102571\t126508\t好那我們看發電量這次的光電廠的一個發電量的損失的總裝置容量到32.62MW也就是每天損失將近高峰用電的11.2萬噸我光是這個清台所造成的一個高峰用電量就11.2萬噸的損失這是你經濟部能源署所提供的數據喔\n127509\t146188\t好那本席啊這個在前兩次我已經質詢過了就是台電應該以綜合電業方式繼續經營確保民生穩定而這當中這一次的質詢第二次的這個質詢當中有去講到再次第二次的去提到人員署應該建立\n147289\t165435\t評估建立再生人員場域各級數據的監理機制並且規劃台電場域先行試辦以利後續的推動要求到民營電廠那到底有沒有呢剛才聽到我們謝映峰找回他質詢的他講得非常的好你們根本沒有工具\n166275\t179108\t你的工具在哪裡 你說要科學的監理 哪裡有好 等一下我再講說你們的科學監理好 所以這次是再生人員沒有環境數據的監理機制也就沒有預宣防災的判斷作為好 我剛才就講到說這次發生的都在制洪池上\n188797\t190678\t為什麼我光電廠會沒有摘損因為他的他已經有個機制了只要封到什麼極速的時候他就鎖住了他不會再做風力的運轉但是這一次在水域當中的這個光電廠怎麼樣\n206524\t230358\t風力到什麼極致的時候我智鴻池上的光電廠我應該做怎麼樣的保護譬如說我應該做電纜相關的那個矽電纜是不是應該加強或矽纜要做加強類似這樣的機制我們是沒有所以你在這個環境再生人員場域各級數據的監理機制當中其實是有缺失的\n231278\t245829\t好那再生人員場域的數據監理機制台電公司回覆給本席的我這邊都是你們的文字台電公司已經建立相關的管理架構跟運作規模其實這是人員署管你們人員署就說好那台電來管\n249852\t271647\t那我也講到這個能源署是有公權力的他不管你叫台電先是先行要台電去管全國的那不可能他沒有公權力所以他維護給本席的台電公司已經進入相關的管理架構跟這個運作模式了涵蓋配電級跟輸電級的各再生能源數據的監控跟管理所以才確保各再生能源的穩定並往跟電往所以台電只重視什麼\n280172\t297377\t發電跟設備這本來就是他的專業啊他的專業在哪裡他的專業不在於我是不是自然環境的變化因素會影響我的發電跟設備的關聯性重點是這個所以你的監理機制跟管理機制是只管發電跟設備\n299477\t320608\t我們期待的 剛才歷任的 包括剛才昭緯所講的我們的風水陣會不會怎麼影響我的發電跟市面 你是沒有辦法做監理跟管理的好那你們的回文是這樣啦 台電的監控之管理其實都是以電力出發 這是本席爬梳出來你們的缺失\n321969\t338755\t不能說缺失啦 就應該在經濟的部分 而非環境影響為優先你們的監控機制回文叫什麼 依台電公司啊等等等等 這麼長的一個原則要求再生林園廠將資料回傳至調度中心喔這個資料中心只包括什麼 資料只有氣象資料我這個是光電廠 我只有收集這個太陽光\n345658\t354324\t那太陽光當中的光電廠你只收集太陽光那你有沒有想到我的有效日照有效日照我降雨會不會影響有效日照我風力會不會影響這個光電廠的設備我的強震跟強風會不會影響這個光電廠的各項的結構安全\n365572\t380691\t其實是沒有的 部長其實這個我要凸顯出來讓你了解這個的嚴重性我就是因為光天我只收集光那之前的其他的這個降雨啦 風力啦 強震啦等環境因素就沒有了所以你就沒有這個工具去做判斷\n382333\t401389\t那你的監理機制當中除了氣象資料的單項之外其他的都是電力了什麼有效電力瞬間值 無效電力瞬間值這本來就是台電他的強項那這個東西跟我的環境影響跟我的電力有沒有關聯 沒有那你的管理機制台電只做到什麼\n401869\t426007\t他說我要求了各再生能源廠裝置相關的電力保護措施我怎麼保護電力嘛如果遇到強大我怎麼保護電力所以呢他這邊講的就比如說電壓控制頻率響應及故障穿越能力其實還是一樣他還是講電所以相關的監理跟管理都是以電為出發缺乏電廠安全跟環境影響進行科學管理好\n429810\t435233\t我們再來看青苔這邊已經形成青苔的丹納斯風災它形成了範圍性的天然災害也凸顯再生人員不是僅有電力供應應該被管理好 我們來看這幾個盲點台電公司的管理機制都是僅針對電力供應本身過去的台電都是單一電廠獨立作業\n457005\t477938\t他具備完整的應變能力這其實是真的要感謝台電他怎麼樣的完整的應變能力他這次當中更凸顯了還有充足的備品隨時待命的輪值人員緊急應變的機制這更是對於我們的民營再生人員廠有沒有這些東西沒有\n478968\t482370\t我們是沒有的喔所以綠能電廠是分散場域而且是基礎設施收拾未完善的地點譬如說我們都是要農業貧瘠之地啦或者是相關的地處偏遠啦所以在這些民營當中的地點這樣的一個特性之外我缺乏人員駐點應變我沒有這些民營是沒有人員駐點的喔\n506207\t530922\t那更不要說他對生態環境及水土保持可能會有影響的多項變數在綠能電廠是完全沒有好那我能源署你不應該核准後就任由民營電廠自行管制我已經質詢兩次了其實你應該要這個能源電廠你說環境部各自的電廠做要核准你要做環境影響評估做完之後就沒事了\n531943\t534865\t本席希望的是你要統籌這些電廠的環境影響評估之後的數據人員數做全國的統籌之後隨時的調整之後你20年期到了你要做換證要做延展了你是不是要做一下評估一下我要延展我的我的氣候條件極端氣候條件什麼的變化我應該怎麼樣的各個\n558002\t586095\t設施當中我應該要怎麼的再加嚴的要求呢所以我期待的就是你的環境影響評估每個民營電廠都花了那麼多錢做但是呢做完之後就沒事了繳報告給環境部就可以了之後沒有誰要來做監理你要去環境部去監理你的電廠嗎不可能啊那你只有人員署啊你不能拋給台電台電哪有能力去管所有民營電廠跟地方政府\n586755\t611493\t不可能所以能源這個能源署就應該是要統籌所有民營電廠的一個整個的這個數據的監控跟管理那地方政府本身沒有電力專業啊那台電又不具公權力啊所以能源署你現在不收集掌握資料就無法做決策的參考現在也無法面對問題之外你未來也不能調整20年期滿的電廠展延機制\n615176\t619498\t我們在兼顧再生人員與居民用電這邊本席有一個要求全國區域電網骨幹的電力韌性我們投入了5600億但這次風災凸顯了電網末端輸送電網末端輸送遭遇極端氣候時的脆弱所以請經濟部盤點全國區域地理特性\n642225\t658986\t因地制宜規劃電網方案並納入行政院的二次人員轉型這是按照媒體講因為我不曉得你的二次人員轉型的細部計畫是什麼我只看你爆派的你的二次人員轉型包含的是多元綠能深度節能\n661308\t686277\t儲能技術應用核能安全本席要求你要把這樣的一個末端電網電網末端輸送的這個方案納入二次電網要全國區域性喔靠山靠海靠城市靠偏鄉這個全國你比如說雲嘉南這次最重他全部都平延他的這個區域特性的結果你的電網規劃是什麼\n688138\t717242\t那如果針對我們三區包括我高雄市三區這個是面積幾乎佔了我的高雄的一半以上那你這個部分它的電網又要怎麼的規劃所以你在這個電網末端尤其它是對我民生是最急切的你們之前5600億是在全國的區域電網主幹線當中的電力網絡但是在這個末端跟我民生最主要最有感的電力的輸送\n717802\t734859\t你們有沒有規劃 沒有所以本席要求這個部分你要重新的來重視而且納入二次能源的轉型因為要經費啊這個要經費啊你不能全部都給地方全部給台電那台電又更是更要倒了那最後本席具體要求\n736860\t763789\t對於這個再生能源安全性的穩定性的強烈主張所以要求兩件事情要求經濟部能源署檢討更新你的再生能源場域各級數據的監理機制第二個規劃電網末端輸送的電網韌性方案這是新的方案那以維持再生能源跟我居民安全居民的用電安全這是雙重保障所以部長你怎麼看\n764893\t783904\t報告委員我想你所垂詢的這一個部分我們都有在檢討那這一次的這個我想因為氣候變遷造成的這一次比較嚴重的傷害也是我們一個學習的樣本那我們會以這一些比較脆弱的部分我們會來強化我想這一次的這個經驗\n785385\t811502\t我們會把所有的結構剛才你在垂詢的包括floating的這個系統確實在結構上面我們過去雖然有技師簽證過但是還是沒有辦法耐到時機急風所以我們會從這個上面來學習將來會把這些東西全部都來強化我希望能夠達到讓所有的用電戶能夠跟使用電的這個部分沒有斷電的這樣的一個\n814403\t826428\t疑慮這樣的一個困擾往前往前部長我想的我不是只有針對floating的部分來來往前往前這個不能動好再往前好這個\n828005\t855446\t我講的不是只有針對那個滯洪池喔我說以光電廠為例主要收集的是有效日照你光是你的數據跟管理你本身就要做調整跟增加了嘛我們會來這個考慮因為現在極端氣候嘛造成的這個變異非常的大那我們會來做這一方面的強化所以這樣的這個你們的這個管理跟監控機制的數據你們這是有發文的喔有真的是這個你們為什麼不動啊\n856960\t867056\t目前的監控機制是有這個環境部他們在做啦那我們會來討論到底哪個部分要再加強這個機制不是環境部喔 是人員署喔人員署講個話吧\n869384\t894790\t還是台電自己發布的我跟委員報告那個剛剛講的那幾塊因為涉及到電力調度的部分因為台電必須要知道說那個附近區域他到底光源可以發的怎麼樣所以台電他在每一天前一天他都會做一些預測所以他必須要要求說那些數據要可以提供給台電做調度\n895950\t920480\t簡單啦 你要不要更新你這樣的再生人員場域各級數據管理機制這個是你們的一個對 這個部分我們會再跟台電檢討說這個後續要怎麼樣但是也跟委員澄清一下那個環評的部分環評的部分只要做完環評環境部就會去做監督那我們的演員署就會負責追蹤這個是法令上規定我們這個已經大概做了二十幾年了跟委員補充報告一下\n920540\t936745\t追蹤啊所以那你追蹤當中有做數據的分析嗎有 那個數據我們有問那其實是你主責還是環境部主責追蹤的部分我們會把數據整理出來以後會將結果報到環境部所以這是錯的嘛沒有 法規是這樣規定的那你要調整法規啊你這個法規是\n940706\t946427\t所以在給環境部的話也就是說今天啊風大雨大會影響電力那是環境部來告訴你嗎還是你自己主張兩個電廠是你主責所以呢我這個數據呈現之後所以你應該要做什麼樣的因應所以這就是你們兩個部門的矛盾點啦當然是你人員人員數啊所以你再繼續對那這個法你可以改啊\n970100\t973542\t我是點問題 我不講 反正最後罵的是你但是本席最在意的是罵的是本執政黨罵的是本執政黨啊你這個電廠的數據你推給環境部 環境部收到這個數據之後他說對電廠會有什麼的衝擊然後他再告訴你 你不是多此一舉嗎\n993464\t999867\t所以數據的分析跟你相關設備的這個因應的機制當然是你數據的分析包括日照我說光是一個光電廠光是它的下雨就會影響日照它的風力也會影響你的基礎結構包括你的強震包括都會影響結構這結構有你的土木結構你的建築的你的這個設備的結構都會影響啊\n1023200\t1023881\t那就算這個數據不是你分析嗎 它只呈現這個數據而已啊我要說兩件事了 有關\n1032790\t1060548\t這個電廠的營運的部分的資料我們自己會分析那個我們也會tag那不足的部分我們會檢討那這是委員說的第一塊第二塊有關環境監測數據是當初環境部它在環境影響評估審查的結論那個部分我們必須要報依環境影響評估法報到環境部去環境部就最後所以這是兩塊事情環境影響評估內的所有的數據你的環評所做的所有數據你都有百分百的監控嗎\n1063233\t1079546\t會依照環評法最後的結論它要求我們目的使者決定要做追蹤的部分模擬業者所以並沒有全部嗎沒有它環評法最後的結論要我們追蹤什麼我們就會把追蹤的結果報到環境部去就是依它的最後的結論就是我們就依照結論來辦\n1081227\t1101621\t對 你的結論就是說你有掌握在一個是你的結論的數據有沒有去做分析第一個是你的結論有沒有 只是依法嘛 那有沒有需要增加也許他業者做了10項 但是你最後監控的只有6項好 你依照規定的是6項 可是你發現到我其實是要這10項我全部都要繼續監控的喔好 第二個 這個監控的彼此之間的關係 我的這個對\n1106364\t1131812\t自然資源 再生能源是來自天然資源啊所以天然資源對於這個你這個整個風場 整體風場的影響這才是你主責 我在意的是你的數據的完備性跟你的這個影響的這個數據的交叉的分析這才是重點 這才叫做科學管理啊科學數據 科學管理啊你要做到這點 那是不是要檢討呢有沒有檢討的必要我應該是說我們運轉數據的那些項目是不是\n1135396\t1139561\t是不是要檢討啊這個部分我們好那就是如果你要檢討你要多久\n1140680\t1155267\t你就能夠要去更新你的再生人員場域更新數據的監理機制啊跟委員報告一下 這個因為我們現在像太陽光店 鋒利這些我們其實都會隨著這個環境變遷去持續做檢討所以這個需要一點時間 這個我們到時候檢討完會跟委員報告好 OK 沒問題 我也不逼你時間再來你的電網末端輸送的電網任性 這個是台電講的話\n1168072\t1195002\t向委員報告那因為這次我們也看到風災造成的這個災害這個災害的情境跟以往完全不一樣就是十六、十七級風所以這個部分對於如何強化我們的我們有分短期、中期、長期都會做一些因應那部長有一些指示那我們會盡速來辦理你對於本席講的電網末端輸送我最在意這個因為這跟我民生最有關係是的\n1195702\t1209372\t對 我們不管你那個 你花了五千六百億我跟你講 人民是無感的但是對於你我都知這個是很重要的但是現在對人民最有感的就是我的跟我民生最末端的那個電網的一個脆弱性才是讓我民眾對於政府覺得非常的不信任就會導致說 這個是你的人員政策就會跳得太快了\n1220680\t1234705\t那這個會不會影響民眾真的喔 就是你們政府的能源政策錯誤喔就會被導入這個狀態然後你跟他講說我已經花了五千六百億他還是聽不懂你花了五千六百億你怎麼還是讓我家的電信桿全部倒了還讓台電員工將近兩個禮拜不眠不休的倒入\n1239426\t1243548\t那你那5600億花在哪裡我現在的質詢方法叫做反對黨的質詢方法但我相信這個是誤導式的質詢方法那民眾聽得下去聽不下去絕對聽得下去因為你花了5600億可是這5600億不是花在跟我民生最有關係的電網末端嘛就是我家前面那個電線港你不能倒啊因為一倒就是影響到我家人民在意的是這個啊\n1265876\t1269101\t那這個我希望你對於全國性做個盤點做一個專案也許這個整個你盤點完後出來需要3000億比如說\n1274966\t1301728\t我認為這是新的 從雲加南當中 這是新的方案而且是靠山靠海 靠水 不管靠山靠海 或者城鄉之間這才是新的話 本席講的這個是新的方案所以你覺得這個是不是應該 你要去想一下 評估一下這個是應該啟動這樣的一個電網末端的輸送方案才對啊是 我們會評估 因為部長有指示 我們會評估整個短中長期都會出來好 謝謝\n1303882\t1307191\t好谢谢我们现在请陈婷飞\n","txt":"好 現在請呂玉玲委員做詢答 呂玉玲委員 呂玉玲委員不在現在請林黛樺委員做詢答有請郭部長 郭部長\n好 本星鄉針對這個極端氣候衝擊再生能源設施中央是放手地方無力造成災害好 我們來看這一次的丹奈斯颱風這個是從嘉義縣登陸造成的嘉義縣這120年來的一個災情慘重那也多達了70億萬戶的停電但這凸顯了我極端氣候下我的氣候風險\n所带来的一个电力的一个韧性的因应其实是相对要更高的一个标准好我们看这个丹纳斯台风的光电跟电场本席针对这样的极端气候所造成的光\n電廠當中來做一個討論那在這次颱風當中光電廠是14個案其中這4個案大的電廠的4個案都在滯洪池上小型案場10個而這個災損呢只要在這個災損的部分在光電廠是沒有人好在沒有人傷亡但是設施是有損害的那風電廠是完全沒有災損就是在設備上也沒有\n好那我們看發電量這次的光電廠的一個發電量的損失的總裝置容量到32.62MW也就是每天損失將近高峰用電的11.2萬噸我光是這個清台所造成的一個高峰用電量就11.2萬噸的損失這是你經濟部能源署所提供的數據喔\n好那本席啊這個在前兩次我已經質詢過了就是台電應該以綜合電業方式繼續經營確保民生穩定而這當中這一次的質詢第二次的這個質詢當中有去講到再次第二次的去提到人員署應該建立\n評估建立再生人員場域各級數據的監理機制並且規劃台電場域先行試辦以利後續的推動要求到民營電廠那到底有沒有呢剛才聽到我們謝映峰找回他質詢的他講得非常的好你們根本沒有工具\n你的工具在哪裡 你說要科學的監理 哪裡有好 等一下我再講說你們的科學監理好 所以這次是再生人員沒有環境數據的監理機制也就沒有預宣防災的判斷作為好 我剛才就講到說這次發生的都在制洪池上\n為什麼我光電廠會沒有摘損因為他的他已經有個機制了只要封到什麼極速的時候他就鎖住了他不會再做風力的運轉但是這一次在水域當中的這個光電廠怎麼樣\n風力到什麼極致的時候我智鴻池上的光電廠我應該做怎麼樣的保護譬如說我應該做電纜相關的那個矽電纜是不是應該加強或矽纜要做加強類似這樣的機制我們是沒有所以你在這個環境再生人員場域各級數據的監理機制當中其實是有缺失的\n好那再生人員場域的數據監理機制台電公司回覆給本席的我這邊都是你們的文字台電公司已經建立相關的管理架構跟運作規模其實這是人員署管你們人員署就說好那台電來管\n那我也講到這個能源署是有公權力的他不管你叫台電先是先行要台電去管全國的那不可能他沒有公權力所以他維護給本席的台電公司已經進入相關的管理架構跟這個運作模式了涵蓋配電級跟輸電級的各再生能源數據的監控跟管理所以才確保各再生能源的穩定並往跟電往所以台電只重視什麼\n發電跟設備這本來就是他的專業啊他的專業在哪裡他的專業不在於我是不是自然環境的變化因素會影響我的發電跟設備的關聯性重點是這個所以你的監理機制跟管理機制是只管發電跟設備\n我們期待的 剛才歷任的 包括剛才昭緯所講的我們的風水陣會不會怎麼影響我的發電跟市面 你是沒有辦法做監理跟管理的好那你們的回文是這樣啦 台電的監控之管理其實都是以電力出發 這是本席爬梳出來你們的缺失\n不能說缺失啦 就應該在經濟的部分 而非環境影響為優先你們的監控機制回文叫什麼 依台電公司啊等等等等 這麼長的一個原則要求再生林園廠將資料回傳至調度中心喔這個資料中心只包括什麼 資料只有氣象資料我這個是光電廠 我只有收集這個太陽光\n那太陽光當中的光電廠你只收集太陽光那你有沒有想到我的有效日照有效日照我降雨會不會影響有效日照我風力會不會影響這個光電廠的設備我的強震跟強風會不會影響這個光電廠的各項的結構安全\n其實是沒有的 部長其實這個我要凸顯出來讓你了解這個的嚴重性我就是因為光天我只收集光那之前的其他的這個降雨啦 風力啦 強震啦等環境因素就沒有了所以你就沒有這個工具去做判斷\n那你的監理機制當中除了氣象資料的單項之外其他的都是電力了什麼有效電力瞬間值 無效電力瞬間值這本來就是台電他的強項那這個東西跟我的環境影響跟我的電力有沒有關聯 沒有那你的管理機制台電只做到什麼\n他說我要求了各再生能源廠裝置相關的電力保護措施我怎麼保護電力嘛如果遇到強大我怎麼保護電力所以呢他這邊講的就比如說電壓控制頻率響應及故障穿越能力其實還是一樣他還是講電所以相關的監理跟管理都是以電為出發缺乏電廠安全跟環境影響進行科學管理好\n我們再來看青苔這邊已經形成青苔的丹納斯風災它形成了範圍性的天然災害也凸顯再生人員不是僅有電力供應應該被管理好 我們來看這幾個盲點台電公司的管理機制都是僅針對電力供應本身過去的台電都是單一電廠獨立作業\n他具備完整的應變能力這其實是真的要感謝台電他怎麼樣的完整的應變能力他這次當中更凸顯了還有充足的備品隨時待命的輪值人員緊急應變的機制這更是對於我們的民營再生人員廠有沒有這些東西沒有\n我們是沒有的喔所以綠能電廠是分散場域而且是基礎設施收拾未完善的地點譬如說我們都是要農業貧瘠之地啦或者是相關的地處偏遠啦所以在這些民營當中的地點這樣的一個特性之外我缺乏人員駐點應變我沒有這些民營是沒有人員駐點的喔\n那更不要說他對生態環境及水土保持可能會有影響的多項變數在綠能電廠是完全沒有好那我能源署你不應該核准後就任由民營電廠自行管制我已經質詢兩次了其實你應該要這個能源電廠你說環境部各自的電廠做要核准你要做環境影響評估做完之後就沒事了\n本席希望的是你要統籌這些電廠的環境影響評估之後的數據人員數做全國的統籌之後隨時的調整之後你20年期到了你要做換證要做延展了你是不是要做一下評估一下我要延展我的我的氣候條件極端氣候條件什麼的變化我應該怎麼樣的各個\n設施當中我應該要怎麼的再加嚴的要求呢所以我期待的就是你的環境影響評估每個民營電廠都花了那麼多錢做但是呢做完之後就沒事了繳報告給環境部就可以了之後沒有誰要來做監理你要去環境部去監理你的電廠嗎不可能啊那你只有人員署啊你不能拋給台電台電哪有能力去管所有民營電廠跟地方政府\n不可能所以能源這個能源署就應該是要統籌所有民營電廠的一個整個的這個數據的監控跟管理那地方政府本身沒有電力專業啊那台電又不具公權力啊所以能源署你現在不收集掌握資料就無法做決策的參考現在也無法面對問題之外你未來也不能調整20年期滿的電廠展延機制\n我們在兼顧再生人員與居民用電這邊本席有一個要求全國區域電網骨幹的電力韌性我們投入了5600億但這次風災凸顯了電網末端輸送電網末端輸送遭遇極端氣候時的脆弱所以請經濟部盤點全國區域地理特性\n因地制宜規劃電網方案並納入行政院的二次人員轉型這是按照媒體講因為我不曉得你的二次人員轉型的細部計畫是什麼我只看你爆派的你的二次人員轉型包含的是多元綠能深度節能\n儲能技術應用核能安全本席要求你要把這樣的一個末端電網電網末端輸送的這個方案納入二次電網要全國區域性喔靠山靠海靠城市靠偏鄉這個全國你比如說雲嘉南這次最重他全部都平延他的這個區域特性的結果你的電網規劃是什麼\n那如果針對我們三區包括我高雄市三區這個是面積幾乎佔了我的高雄的一半以上那你這個部分它的電網又要怎麼的規劃所以你在這個電網末端尤其它是對我民生是最急切的你們之前5600億是在全國的區域電網主幹線當中的電力網絡但是在這個末端跟我民生最主要最有感的電力的輸送\n你們有沒有規劃 沒有所以本席要求這個部分你要重新的來重視而且納入二次能源的轉型因為要經費啊這個要經費啊你不能全部都給地方全部給台電那台電又更是更要倒了那最後本席具體要求\n對於這個再生能源安全性的穩定性的強烈主張所以要求兩件事情要求經濟部能源署檢討更新你的再生能源場域各級數據的監理機制第二個規劃電網末端輸送的電網韌性方案這是新的方案那以維持再生能源跟我居民安全居民的用電安全這是雙重保障所以部長你怎麼看\n報告委員我想你所垂詢的這一個部分我們都有在檢討那這一次的這個我想因為氣候變遷造成的這一次比較嚴重的傷害也是我們一個學習的樣本那我們會以這一些比較脆弱的部分我們會來強化我想這一次的這個經驗\n我們會把所有的結構剛才你在垂詢的包括floating的這個系統確實在結構上面我們過去雖然有技師簽證過但是還是沒有辦法耐到時機急風所以我們會從這個上面來學習將來會把這些東西全部都來強化我希望能夠達到讓所有的用電戶能夠跟使用電的這個部分沒有斷電的這樣的一個\n疑慮這樣的一個困擾往前往前部長我想的我不是只有針對floating的部分來來往前往前這個不能動好再往前好這個\n我講的不是只有針對那個滯洪池喔我說以光電廠為例主要收集的是有效日照你光是你的數據跟管理你本身就要做調整跟增加了嘛我們會來這個考慮因為現在極端氣候嘛造成的這個變異非常的大那我們會來做這一方面的強化所以這樣的這個你們的這個管理跟監控機制的數據你們這是有發文的喔有真的是這個你們為什麼不動啊\n目前的監控機制是有這個環境部他們在做啦那我們會來討論到底哪個部分要再加強這個機制不是環境部喔 是人員署喔人員署講個話吧\n還是台電自己發布的我跟委員報告那個剛剛講的那幾塊因為涉及到電力調度的部分因為台電必須要知道說那個附近區域他到底光源可以發的怎麼樣所以台電他在每一天前一天他都會做一些預測所以他必須要要求說那些數據要可以提供給台電做調度\n簡單啦 你要不要更新你這樣的再生人員場域各級數據管理機制這個是你們的一個對 這個部分我們會再跟台電檢討說這個後續要怎麼樣但是也跟委員澄清一下那個環評的部分環評的部分只要做完環評環境部就會去做監督那我們的演員署就會負責追蹤這個是法令上規定我們這個已經大概做了二十幾年了跟委員補充報告一下\n追蹤啊所以那你追蹤當中有做數據的分析嗎有 那個數據我們有問那其實是你主責還是環境部主責追蹤的部分我們會把數據整理出來以後會將結果報到環境部所以這是錯的嘛沒有 法規是這樣規定的那你要調整法規啊你這個法規是\n所以在給環境部的話也就是說今天啊風大雨大會影響電力那是環境部來告訴你嗎還是你自己主張兩個電廠是你主責所以呢我這個數據呈現之後所以你應該要做什麼樣的因應所以這就是你們兩個部門的矛盾點啦當然是你人員人員數啊所以你再繼續對那這個法你可以改啊\n我是點問題 我不講 反正最後罵的是你但是本席最在意的是罵的是本執政黨罵的是本執政黨啊你這個電廠的數據你推給環境部 環境部收到這個數據之後他說對電廠會有什麼的衝擊然後他再告訴你 你不是多此一舉嗎\n所以數據的分析跟你相關設備的這個因應的機制當然是你數據的分析包括日照我說光是一個光電廠光是它的下雨就會影響日照它的風力也會影響你的基礎結構包括你的強震包括都會影響結構這結構有你的土木結構你的建築的你的這個設備的結構都會影響啊\n那就算這個數據不是你分析嗎 它只呈現這個數據而已啊我要說兩件事了 有關\n這個電廠的營運的部分的資料我們自己會分析那個我們也會tag那不足的部分我們會檢討那這是委員說的第一塊第二塊有關環境監測數據是當初環境部它在環境影響評估審查的結論那個部分我們必須要報依環境影響評估法報到環境部去環境部就最後所以這是兩塊事情環境影響評估內的所有的數據你的環評所做的所有數據你都有百分百的監控嗎\n會依照環評法最後的結論它要求我們目的使者決定要做追蹤的部分模擬業者所以並沒有全部嗎沒有它環評法最後的結論要我們追蹤什麼我們就會把追蹤的結果報到環境部去就是依它的最後的結論就是我們就依照結論來辦\n對 你的結論就是說你有掌握在一個是你的結論的數據有沒有去做分析第一個是你的結論有沒有 只是依法嘛 那有沒有需要增加也許他業者做了10項 但是你最後監控的只有6項好 你依照規定的是6項 可是你發現到我其實是要這10項我全部都要繼續監控的喔好 第二個 這個監控的彼此之間的關係 我的這個對\n自然資源 再生能源是來自天然資源啊所以天然資源對於這個你這個整個風場 整體風場的影響這才是你主責 我在意的是你的數據的完備性跟你的這個影響的這個數據的交叉的分析這才是重點 這才叫做科學管理啊科學數據 科學管理啊你要做到這點 那是不是要檢討呢有沒有檢討的必要我應該是說我們運轉數據的那些項目是不是\n是不是要檢討啊這個部分我們好那就是如果你要檢討你要多久\n你就能夠要去更新你的再生人員場域更新數據的監理機制啊跟委員報告一下 這個因為我們現在像太陽光店 鋒利這些我們其實都會隨著這個環境變遷去持續做檢討所以這個需要一點時間 這個我們到時候檢討完會跟委員報告好 OK 沒問題 我也不逼你時間再來你的電網末端輸送的電網任性 這個是台電講的話\n向委員報告那因為這次我們也看到風災造成的這個災害這個災害的情境跟以往完全不一樣就是十六、十七級風所以這個部分對於如何強化我們的我們有分短期、中期、長期都會做一些因應那部長有一些指示那我們會盡速來辦理你對於本席講的電網末端輸送我最在意這個因為這跟我民生最有關係是的\n對 我們不管你那個 你花了五千六百億我跟你講 人民是無感的但是對於你我都知這個是很重要的但是現在對人民最有感的就是我的跟我民生最末端的那個電網的一個脆弱性才是讓我民眾對於政府覺得非常的不信任就會導致說 這個是你的人員政策就會跳得太快了\n那這個會不會影響民眾真的喔 就是你們政府的能源政策錯誤喔就會被導入這個狀態然後你跟他講說我已經花了五千六百億他還是聽不懂你花了五千六百億你怎麼還是讓我家的電信桿全部倒了還讓台電員工將近兩個禮拜不眠不休的倒入\n那你那5600億花在哪裡我現在的質詢方法叫做反對黨的質詢方法但我相信這個是誤導式的質詢方法那民眾聽得下去聽不下去絕對聽得下去因為你花了5600億可是這5600億不是花在跟我民生最有關係的電網末端嘛就是我家前面那個電線港你不能倒啊因為一倒就是影響到我家人民在意的是這個啊\n那這個我希望你對於全國性做個盤點做一個專案也許這個整個你盤點完後出來需要3000億比如說\n我認為這是新的 從雲加南當中 這是新的方案而且是靠山靠海 靠水 不管靠山靠海 或者城鄉之間這才是新的話 本席講的這個是新的方案所以你覺得這個是不是應該 你要去想一下 評估一下這個是應該啟動這樣的一個電網末端的輸送方案才對啊是 我們會評估 因為部長有指示 我們會評估整個短中長期都會出來好 謝謝\n好谢谢我们现在请陈婷飞\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.117 --> 00:19.267\n好現在請呂玉玲委員做詢答呂玉玲委員呂玉玲委員不在現在請林黛樺委員做詢答有請郭部長郭部長\n\n00:27.688 --> 00:43.494\n好本星鄉針對這個極端氣候衝擊再生能源設施中央是放手地方無力造成災害好我們來看這一次的丹奈斯颱風這個是從嘉義縣登陸造成的嘉義縣這120年來的一個災情慘重那也多達了70億萬戶的停電但這凸顯了我極端氣候下我的氣候風險\n\n00:56.599 --> 01:12.698\n所带来的一个电力的一个韧性的因应其实是相对要更高的一个标准好我们看这个丹纳斯台风的光电跟电场本席针对这样的极端气候所造成的光\n\n01:13.519 --> 01:19.682\n電廠當中來做一個討論那在這次颱風當中光電廠是14個案其中這4個案大的電廠的4個案都在滯洪池上小型案場10個而這個災損呢只要在這個災損的部分在光電廠是沒有人好在沒有人傷亡但是設施是有損害的那風電廠是完全沒有災損就是在設備上也沒有\n\n01:42.571 --> 02:06.508\n好那我們看發電量這次的光電廠的一個發電量的損失的總裝置容量到32.62MW也就是每天損失將近高峰用電的11.2萬噸我光是這個清台所造成的一個高峰用電量就11.2萬噸的損失這是你經濟部能源署所提供的數據喔\n\n02:07.509 --> 02:26.188\n好那本席啊這個在前兩次我已經質詢過了就是台電應該以綜合電業方式繼續經營確保民生穩定而這當中這一次的質詢第二次的這個質詢當中有去講到再次第二次的去提到人員署應該建立\n\n02:27.289 --> 02:45.435\n評估建立再生人員場域各級數據的監理機制並且規劃台電場域先行試辦以利後續的推動要求到民營電廠那到底有沒有呢剛才聽到我們謝映峰找回他質詢的他講得非常的好你們根本沒有工具\n\n02:46.275 --> 02:59.108\n你的工具在哪裡你說要科學的監理哪裡有好等一下我再講說你們的科學監理好所以這次是再生人員沒有環境數據的監理機制也就沒有預宣防災的判斷作為好我剛才就講到說這次發生的都在制洪池上\n\n03:08.797 --> 03:10.678\n為什麼我光電廠會沒有摘損因為他的他已經有個機制了只要封到什麼極速的時候他就鎖住了他不會再做風力的運轉但是這一次在水域當中的這個光電廠怎麼樣\n\n03:26.524 --> 03:50.358\n風力到什麼極致的時候我智鴻池上的光電廠我應該做怎麼樣的保護譬如說我應該做電纜相關的那個矽電纜是不是應該加強或矽纜要做加強類似這樣的機制我們是沒有所以你在這個環境再生人員場域各級數據的監理機制當中其實是有缺失的\n\n03:51.278 --> 04:05.829\n好那再生人員場域的數據監理機制台電公司回覆給本席的我這邊都是你們的文字台電公司已經建立相關的管理架構跟運作規模其實這是人員署管你們人員署就說好那台電來管\n\n04:09.852 --> 04:31.647\n那我也講到這個能源署是有公權力的他不管你叫台電先是先行要台電去管全國的那不可能他沒有公權力所以他維護給本席的台電公司已經進入相關的管理架構跟這個運作模式了涵蓋配電級跟輸電級的各再生能源數據的監控跟管理所以才確保各再生能源的穩定並往跟電往所以台電只重視什麼\n\n04:40.172 --> 04:57.377\n發電跟設備這本來就是他的專業啊他的專業在哪裡他的專業不在於我是不是自然環境的變化因素會影響我的發電跟設備的關聯性重點是這個所以你的監理機制跟管理機制是只管發電跟設備\n\n04:59.477 --> 05:20.608\n我們期待的剛才歷任的包括剛才昭緯所講的我們的風水陣會不會怎麼影響我的發電跟市面你是沒有辦法做監理跟管理的好那你們的回文是這樣啦台電的監控之管理其實都是以電力出發這是本席爬梳出來你們的缺失\n\n05:21.969 --> 05:38.755\n不能說缺失啦就應該在經濟的部分而非環境影響為優先你們的監控機制回文叫什麼依台電公司啊等等等等這麼長的一個原則要求再生林園廠將資料回傳至調度中心喔這個資料中心只包括什麼資料只有氣象資料我這個是光電廠我只有收集這個太陽光\n\n05:45.658 --> 05:54.324\n那太陽光當中的光電廠你只收集太陽光那你有沒有想到我的有效日照有效日照我降雨會不會影響有效日照我風力會不會影響這個光電廠的設備我的強震跟強風會不會影響這個光電廠的各項的結構安全\n\n06:05.572 --> 06:20.691\n其實是沒有的部長其實這個我要凸顯出來讓你了解這個的嚴重性我就是因為光天我只收集光那之前的其他的這個降雨啦風力啦強震啦等環境因素就沒有了所以你就沒有這個工具去做判斷\n\n06:22.333 --> 06:41.389\n那你的監理機制當中除了氣象資料的單項之外其他的都是電力了什麼有效電力瞬間值無效電力瞬間值這本來就是台電他的強項那這個東西跟我的環境影響跟我的電力有沒有關聯沒有那你的管理機制台電只做到什麼\n\n06:41.869 --> 07:06.007\n他說我要求了各再生能源廠裝置相關的電力保護措施我怎麼保護電力嘛如果遇到強大我怎麼保護電力所以呢他這邊講的就比如說電壓控制頻率響應及故障穿越能力其實還是一樣他還是講電所以相關的監理跟管理都是以電為出發缺乏電廠安全跟環境影響進行科學管理好\n\n07:09.810 --> 07:15.233\n我們再來看青苔這邊已經形成青苔的丹納斯風災它形成了範圍性的天然災害也凸顯再生人員不是僅有電力供應應該被管理好我們來看這幾個盲點台電公司的管理機制都是僅針對電力供應本身過去的台電都是單一電廠獨立作業\n\n07:37.005 --> 07:57.938\n他具備完整的應變能力這其實是真的要感謝台電他怎麼樣的完整的應變能力他這次當中更凸顯了還有充足的備品隨時待命的輪值人員緊急應變的機制這更是對於我們的民營再生人員廠有沒有這些東西沒有\n\n07:58.968 --> 08:02.370\n我們是沒有的喔所以綠能電廠是分散場域而且是基礎設施收拾未完善的地點譬如說我們都是要農業貧瘠之地啦或者是相關的地處偏遠啦所以在這些民營當中的地點這樣的一個特性之外我缺乏人員駐點應變我沒有這些民營是沒有人員駐點的喔\n\n08:26.207 --> 08:50.922\n那更不要說他對生態環境及水土保持可能會有影響的多項變數在綠能電廠是完全沒有好那我能源署你不應該核准後就任由民營電廠自行管制我已經質詢兩次了其實你應該要這個能源電廠你說環境部各自的電廠做要核准你要做環境影響評估做完之後就沒事了\n\n08:51.943 --> 08:54.865\n本席希望的是你要統籌這些電廠的環境影響評估之後的數據人員數做全國的統籌之後隨時的調整之後你20年期到了你要做換證要做延展了你是不是要做一下評估一下我要延展我的我的氣候條件極端氣候條件什麼的變化我應該怎麼樣的各個\n\n09:18.002 --> 09:46.095\n設施當中我應該要怎麼的再加嚴的要求呢所以我期待的就是你的環境影響評估每個民營電廠都花了那麼多錢做但是呢做完之後就沒事了繳報告給環境部就可以了之後沒有誰要來做監理你要去環境部去監理你的電廠嗎不可能啊那你只有人員署啊你不能拋給台電台電哪有能力去管所有民營電廠跟地方政府\n\n09:46.755 --> 10:11.493\n不可能所以能源這個能源署就應該是要統籌所有民營電廠的一個整個的這個數據的監控跟管理那地方政府本身沒有電力專業啊那台電又不具公權力啊所以能源署你現在不收集掌握資料就無法做決策的參考現在也無法面對問題之外你未來也不能調整20年期滿的電廠展延機制\n\n10:15.176 --> 10:19.498\n我們在兼顧再生人員與居民用電這邊本席有一個要求全國區域電網骨幹的電力韌性我們投入了5600億但這次風災凸顯了電網末端輸送電網末端輸送遭遇極端氣候時的脆弱所以請經濟部盤點全國區域地理特性\n\n10:42.225 --> 10:58.986\n因地制宜規劃電網方案並納入行政院的二次人員轉型這是按照媒體講因為我不曉得你的二次人員轉型的細部計畫是什麼我只看你爆派的你的二次人員轉型包含的是多元綠能深度節能\n\n11:01.308 --> 11:26.277\n儲能技術應用核能安全本席要求你要把這樣的一個末端電網電網末端輸送的這個方案納入二次電網要全國區域性喔靠山靠海靠城市靠偏鄉這個全國你比如說雲嘉南這次最重他全部都平延他的這個區域特性的結果你的電網規劃是什麼\n\n11:28.138 --> 11:57.242\n那如果針對我們三區包括我高雄市三區這個是面積幾乎佔了我的高雄的一半以上那你這個部分它的電網又要怎麼的規劃所以你在這個電網末端尤其它是對我民生是最急切的你們之前5600億是在全國的區域電網主幹線當中的電力網絡但是在這個末端跟我民生最主要最有感的電力的輸送\n\n11:57.802 --> 12:14.859\n你們有沒有規劃沒有所以本席要求這個部分你要重新的來重視而且納入二次能源的轉型因為要經費啊這個要經費啊你不能全部都給地方全部給台電那台電又更是更要倒了那最後本席具體要求\n\n12:16.860 --> 12:43.789\n對於這個再生能源安全性的穩定性的強烈主張所以要求兩件事情要求經濟部能源署檢討更新你的再生能源場域各級數據的監理機制第二個規劃電網末端輸送的電網韌性方案這是新的方案那以維持再生能源跟我居民安全居民的用電安全這是雙重保障所以部長你怎麼看\n\n12:44.893 --> 13:03.904\n報告委員我想你所垂詢的這一個部分我們都有在檢討那這一次的這個我想因為氣候變遷造成的這一次比較嚴重的傷害也是我們一個學習的樣本那我們會以這一些比較脆弱的部分我們會來強化我想這一次的這個經驗\n\n13:05.385 --> 13:31.502\n我們會把所有的結構剛才你在垂詢的包括floating的這個系統確實在結構上面我們過去雖然有技師簽證過但是還是沒有辦法耐到時機急風所以我們會從這個上面來學習將來會把這些東西全部都來強化我希望能夠達到讓所有的用電戶能夠跟使用電的這個部分沒有斷電的這樣的一個\n\n13:34.403 --> 13:46.428\n疑慮這樣的一個困擾往前往前部長我想的我不是只有針對floating的部分來來往前往前這個不能動好再往前好這個\n\n13:48.005 --> 14:15.446\n我講的不是只有針對那個滯洪池喔我說以光電廠為例主要收集的是有效日照你光是你的數據跟管理你本身就要做調整跟增加了嘛我們會來這個考慮因為現在極端氣候嘛造成的這個變異非常的大那我們會來做這一方面的強化所以這樣的這個你們的這個管理跟監控機制的數據你們這是有發文的喔有真的是這個你們為什麼不動啊\n\n14:16.960 --> 14:27.056\n目前的監控機制是有這個環境部他們在做啦那我們會來討論到底哪個部分要再加強這個機制不是環境部喔是人員署喔人員署講個話吧\n\n14:29.384 --> 14:54.790\n還是台電自己發布的我跟委員報告那個剛剛講的那幾塊因為涉及到電力調度的部分因為台電必須要知道說那個附近區域他到底光源可以發的怎麼樣所以台電他在每一天前一天他都會做一些預測所以他必須要要求說那些數據要可以提供給台電做調度\n\n14:55.950 --> 15:20.480\n簡單啦你要不要更新你這樣的再生人員場域各級數據管理機制這個是你們的一個對這個部分我們會再跟台電檢討說這個後續要怎麼樣但是也跟委員澄清一下那個環評的部分環評的部分只要做完環評環境部就會去做監督那我們的演員署就會負責追蹤這個是法令上規定我們這個已經大概做了二十幾年了跟委員補充報告一下\n\n15:20.540 --> 15:36.745\n追蹤啊所以那你追蹤當中有做數據的分析嗎有那個數據我們有問那其實是你主責還是環境部主責追蹤的部分我們會把數據整理出來以後會將結果報到環境部所以這是錯的嘛沒有法規是這樣規定的那你要調整法規啊你這個法規是\n\n15:40.706 --> 15:46.427\n所以在給環境部的話也就是說今天啊風大雨大會影響電力那是環境部來告訴你嗎還是你自己主張兩個電廠是你主責所以呢我這個數據呈現之後所以你應該要做什麼樣的因應所以這就是你們兩個部門的矛盾點啦當然是你人員人員數啊所以你再繼續對那這個法你可以改啊\n\n16:10.100 --> 16:13.542\n我是點問題我不講反正最後罵的是你但是本席最在意的是罵的是本執政黨罵的是本執政黨啊你這個電廠的數據你推給環境部環境部收到這個數據之後他說對電廠會有什麼的衝擊然後他再告訴你你不是多此一舉嗎\n\n16:33.464 --> 16:39.867\n所以數據的分析跟你相關設備的這個因應的機制當然是你數據的分析包括日照我說光是一個光電廠光是它的下雨就會影響日照它的風力也會影響你的基礎結構包括你的強震包括都會影響結構這結構有你的土木結構你的建築的你的這個設備的結構都會影響啊\n\n17:03.200 --> 17:03.881\n那就算這個數據不是你分析嗎它只呈現這個數據而已啊我要說兩件事了有關\n\n17:12.790 --> 17:40.548\n這個電廠的營運的部分的資料我們自己會分析那個我們也會tag那不足的部分我們會檢討那這是委員說的第一塊第二塊有關環境監測數據是當初環境部它在環境影響評估審查的結論那個部分我們必須要報依環境影響評估法報到環境部去環境部就最後所以這是兩塊事情環境影響評估內的所有的數據你的環評所做的所有數據你都有百分百的監控嗎\n\n17:43.233 --> 17:59.546\n會依照環評法最後的結論它要求我們目的使者決定要做追蹤的部分模擬業者所以並沒有全部嗎沒有它環評法最後的結論要我們追蹤什麼我們就會把追蹤的結果報到環境部去就是依它的最後的結論就是我們就依照結論來辦\n\n18:01.227 --> 18:21.621\n對你的結論就是說你有掌握在一個是你的結論的數據有沒有去做分析第一個是你的結論有沒有只是依法嘛那有沒有需要增加也許他業者做了10項但是你最後監控的只有6項好你依照規定的是6項可是你發現到我其實是要這10項我全部都要繼續監控的喔好第二個這個監控的彼此之間的關係我的這個對\n\n18:26.364 --> 18:51.812\n自然資源再生能源是來自天然資源啊所以天然資源對於這個你這個整個風場整體風場的影響這才是你主責我在意的是你的數據的完備性跟你的這個影響的這個數據的交叉的分析這才是重點這才叫做科學管理啊科學數據科學管理啊你要做到這點那是不是要檢討呢有沒有檢討的必要我應該是說我們運轉數據的那些項目是不是\n\n18:55.396 --> 18:59.561\n是不是要檢討啊這個部分我們好那就是如果你要檢討你要多久\n\n19:00.680 --> 19:15.267\n你就能夠要去更新你的再生人員場域更新數據的監理機制啊跟委員報告一下這個因為我們現在像太陽光店鋒利這些我們其實都會隨著這個環境變遷去持續做檢討所以這個需要一點時間這個我們到時候檢討完會跟委員報告好OK沒問題我也不逼你時間再來你的電網末端輸送的電網任性這個是台電講的話\n\n19:28.072 --> 19:55.002\n向委員報告那因為這次我們也看到風災造成的這個災害這個災害的情境跟以往完全不一樣就是十六、十七級風所以這個部分對於如何強化我們的我們有分短期、中期、長期都會做一些因應那部長有一些指示那我們會盡速來辦理你對於本席講的電網末端輸送我最在意這個因為這跟我民生最有關係是的\n\n19:55.702 --> 20:09.372\n對我們不管你那個你花了五千六百億我跟你講人民是無感的但是對於你我都知這個是很重要的但是現在對人民最有感的就是我的跟我民生最末端的那個電網的一個脆弱性才是讓我民眾對於政府覺得非常的不信任就會導致說這個是你的人員政策就會跳得太快了\n\n20:20.680 --> 20:34.705\n那這個會不會影響民眾真的喔就是你們政府的能源政策錯誤喔就會被導入這個狀態然後你跟他講說我已經花了五千六百億他還是聽不懂你花了五千六百億你怎麼還是讓我家的電信桿全部倒了還讓台電員工將近兩個禮拜不眠不休的倒入\n\n20:39.426 --> 20:43.548\n那你那5600億花在哪裡我現在的質詢方法叫做反對黨的質詢方法但我相信這個是誤導式的質詢方法那民眾聽得下去聽不下去絕對聽得下去因為你花了5600億可是這5600億不是花在跟我民生最有關係的電網末端嘛就是我家前面那個電線港你不能倒啊因為一倒就是影響到我家人民在意的是這個啊\n\n21:05.876 --> 21:09.101\n那這個我希望你對於全國性做個盤點做一個專案也許這個整個你盤點完後出來需要3000億比如說\n\n21:14.966 --> 21:41.728\n我認為這是新的從雲加南當中這是新的方案而且是靠山靠海靠水不管靠山靠海或者城鄉之間這才是新的話本席講的這個是新的方案所以你覺得這個是不是應該你要去想一下評估一下這個是應該啟動這樣的一個電網末端的輸送方案才對啊是我們會評估因為部長有指示我們會評估整個短中長期都會出來好謝謝\n\n21:43.882 --> 21:47.191\n好谢谢我们现在请陈婷飞\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.117,"end":19.267,"text":"好 現在請呂玉玲委員做詢答 呂玉玲委員 呂玉玲委員不在現在請林黛樺委員做詢答有請郭部長 郭部長"},{"start":27.688,"end":43.494,"text":"好 本星鄉針對這個極端氣候衝擊再生能源設施中央是放手地方無力造成災害好 我們來看這一次的丹奈斯颱風這個是從嘉義縣登陸造成的嘉義縣這120年來的一個災情慘重那也多達了70億萬戶的停電但這凸顯了我極端氣候下我的氣候風險"},{"start":56.599,"end":72.698,"text":"所带来的一个电力的一个韧性的因应其实是相对要更高的一个标准好我们看这个丹纳斯台风的光电跟电场本席针对这样的极端气候所造成的光"},{"start":73.519,"end":79.682,"text":"電廠當中來做一個討論那在這次颱風當中光電廠是14個案其中這4個案大的電廠的4個案都在滯洪池上小型案場10個而這個災損呢只要在這個災損的部分在光電廠是沒有人好在沒有人傷亡但是設施是有損害的那風電廠是完全沒有災損就是在設備上也沒有"},{"start":102.571,"end":126.508,"text":"好那我們看發電量這次的光電廠的一個發電量的損失的總裝置容量到32.62MW也就是每天損失將近高峰用電的11.2萬噸我光是這個清台所造成的一個高峰用電量就11.2萬噸的損失這是你經濟部能源署所提供的數據喔"},{"start":127.509,"end":146.188,"text":"好那本席啊這個在前兩次我已經質詢過了就是台電應該以綜合電業方式繼續經營確保民生穩定而這當中這一次的質詢第二次的這個質詢當中有去講到再次第二次的去提到人員署應該建立"},{"start":147.289,"end":165.435,"text":"評估建立再生人員場域各級數據的監理機制並且規劃台電場域先行試辦以利後續的推動要求到民營電廠那到底有沒有呢剛才聽到我們謝映峰找回他質詢的他講得非常的好你們根本沒有工具"},{"start":166.275,"end":179.108,"text":"你的工具在哪裡 你說要科學的監理 哪裡有好 等一下我再講說你們的科學監理好 所以這次是再生人員沒有環境數據的監理機制也就沒有預宣防災的判斷作為好 我剛才就講到說這次發生的都在制洪池上"},{"start":188.797,"end":190.678,"text":"為什麼我光電廠會沒有摘損因為他的他已經有個機制了只要封到什麼極速的時候他就鎖住了他不會再做風力的運轉但是這一次在水域當中的這個光電廠怎麼樣"},{"start":206.524,"end":230.358,"text":"風力到什麼極致的時候我智鴻池上的光電廠我應該做怎麼樣的保護譬如說我應該做電纜相關的那個矽電纜是不是應該加強或矽纜要做加強類似這樣的機制我們是沒有所以你在這個環境再生人員場域各級數據的監理機制當中其實是有缺失的"},{"start":231.278,"end":245.829,"text":"好那再生人員場域的數據監理機制台電公司回覆給本席的我這邊都是你們的文字台電公司已經建立相關的管理架構跟運作規模其實這是人員署管你們人員署就說好那台電來管"},{"start":249.852,"end":271.647,"text":"那我也講到這個能源署是有公權力的他不管你叫台電先是先行要台電去管全國的那不可能他沒有公權力所以他維護給本席的台電公司已經進入相關的管理架構跟這個運作模式了涵蓋配電級跟輸電級的各再生能源數據的監控跟管理所以才確保各再生能源的穩定並往跟電往所以台電只重視什麼"},{"start":280.172,"end":297.377,"text":"發電跟設備這本來就是他的專業啊他的專業在哪裡他的專業不在於我是不是自然環境的變化因素會影響我的發電跟設備的關聯性重點是這個所以你的監理機制跟管理機制是只管發電跟設備"},{"start":299.477,"end":320.608,"text":"我們期待的 剛才歷任的 包括剛才昭緯所講的我們的風水陣會不會怎麼影響我的發電跟市面 你是沒有辦法做監理跟管理的好那你們的回文是這樣啦 台電的監控之管理其實都是以電力出發 這是本席爬梳出來你們的缺失"},{"start":321.969,"end":338.755,"text":"不能說缺失啦 就應該在經濟的部分 而非環境影響為優先你們的監控機制回文叫什麼 依台電公司啊等等等等 這麼長的一個原則要求再生林園廠將資料回傳至調度中心喔這個資料中心只包括什麼 資料只有氣象資料我這個是光電廠 我只有收集這個太陽光"},{"start":345.658,"end":354.324,"text":"那太陽光當中的光電廠你只收集太陽光那你有沒有想到我的有效日照有效日照我降雨會不會影響有效日照我風力會不會影響這個光電廠的設備我的強震跟強風會不會影響這個光電廠的各項的結構安全"},{"start":365.572,"end":380.691,"text":"其實是沒有的 部長其實這個我要凸顯出來讓你了解這個的嚴重性我就是因為光天我只收集光那之前的其他的這個降雨啦 風力啦 強震啦等環境因素就沒有了所以你就沒有這個工具去做判斷"},{"start":382.333,"end":401.389,"text":"那你的監理機制當中除了氣象資料的單項之外其他的都是電力了什麼有效電力瞬間值 無效電力瞬間值這本來就是台電他的強項那這個東西跟我的環境影響跟我的電力有沒有關聯 沒有那你的管理機制台電只做到什麼"},{"start":401.869,"end":426.007,"text":"他說我要求了各再生能源廠裝置相關的電力保護措施我怎麼保護電力嘛如果遇到強大我怎麼保護電力所以呢他這邊講的就比如說電壓控制頻率響應及故障穿越能力其實還是一樣他還是講電所以相關的監理跟管理都是以電為出發缺乏電廠安全跟環境影響進行科學管理好"},{"start":429.81,"end":435.233,"text":"我們再來看青苔這邊已經形成青苔的丹納斯風災它形成了範圍性的天然災害也凸顯再生人員不是僅有電力供應應該被管理好 我們來看這幾個盲點台電公司的管理機制都是僅針對電力供應本身過去的台電都是單一電廠獨立作業"},{"start":457.005,"end":477.938,"text":"他具備完整的應變能力這其實是真的要感謝台電他怎麼樣的完整的應變能力他這次當中更凸顯了還有充足的備品隨時待命的輪值人員緊急應變的機制這更是對於我們的民營再生人員廠有沒有這些東西沒有"},{"start":478.968,"end":482.37,"text":"我們是沒有的喔所以綠能電廠是分散場域而且是基礎設施收拾未完善的地點譬如說我們都是要農業貧瘠之地啦或者是相關的地處偏遠啦所以在這些民營當中的地點這樣的一個特性之外我缺乏人員駐點應變我沒有這些民營是沒有人員駐點的喔"},{"start":506.207,"end":530.922,"text":"那更不要說他對生態環境及水土保持可能會有影響的多項變數在綠能電廠是完全沒有好那我能源署你不應該核准後就任由民營電廠自行管制我已經質詢兩次了其實你應該要這個能源電廠你說環境部各自的電廠做要核准你要做環境影響評估做完之後就沒事了"},{"start":531.943,"end":534.865,"text":"本席希望的是你要統籌這些電廠的環境影響評估之後的數據人員數做全國的統籌之後隨時的調整之後你20年期到了你要做換證要做延展了你是不是要做一下評估一下我要延展我的我的氣候條件極端氣候條件什麼的變化我應該怎麼樣的各個"},{"start":558.002,"end":586.095,"text":"設施當中我應該要怎麼的再加嚴的要求呢所以我期待的就是你的環境影響評估每個民營電廠都花了那麼多錢做但是呢做完之後就沒事了繳報告給環境部就可以了之後沒有誰要來做監理你要去環境部去監理你的電廠嗎不可能啊那你只有人員署啊你不能拋給台電台電哪有能力去管所有民營電廠跟地方政府"},{"start":586.755,"end":611.493,"text":"不可能所以能源這個能源署就應該是要統籌所有民營電廠的一個整個的這個數據的監控跟管理那地方政府本身沒有電力專業啊那台電又不具公權力啊所以能源署你現在不收集掌握資料就無法做決策的參考現在也無法面對問題之外你未來也不能調整20年期滿的電廠展延機制"},{"start":615.176,"end":619.498,"text":"我們在兼顧再生人員與居民用電這邊本席有一個要求全國區域電網骨幹的電力韌性我們投入了5600億但這次風災凸顯了電網末端輸送電網末端輸送遭遇極端氣候時的脆弱所以請經濟部盤點全國區域地理特性"},{"start":642.225,"end":658.986,"text":"因地制宜規劃電網方案並納入行政院的二次人員轉型這是按照媒體講因為我不曉得你的二次人員轉型的細部計畫是什麼我只看你爆派的你的二次人員轉型包含的是多元綠能深度節能"},{"start":661.308,"end":686.277,"text":"儲能技術應用核能安全本席要求你要把這樣的一個末端電網電網末端輸送的這個方案納入二次電網要全國區域性喔靠山靠海靠城市靠偏鄉這個全國你比如說雲嘉南這次最重他全部都平延他的這個區域特性的結果你的電網規劃是什麼"},{"start":688.138,"end":717.242,"text":"那如果針對我們三區包括我高雄市三區這個是面積幾乎佔了我的高雄的一半以上那你這個部分它的電網又要怎麼的規劃所以你在這個電網末端尤其它是對我民生是最急切的你們之前5600億是在全國的區域電網主幹線當中的電力網絡但是在這個末端跟我民生最主要最有感的電力的輸送"},{"start":717.802,"end":734.859,"text":"你們有沒有規劃 沒有所以本席要求這個部分你要重新的來重視而且納入二次能源的轉型因為要經費啊這個要經費啊你不能全部都給地方全部給台電那台電又更是更要倒了那最後本席具體要求"},{"start":736.86,"end":763.789,"text":"對於這個再生能源安全性的穩定性的強烈主張所以要求兩件事情要求經濟部能源署檢討更新你的再生能源場域各級數據的監理機制第二個規劃電網末端輸送的電網韌性方案這是新的方案那以維持再生能源跟我居民安全居民的用電安全這是雙重保障所以部長你怎麼看"},{"start":764.893,"end":783.904,"text":"報告委員我想你所垂詢的這一個部分我們都有在檢討那這一次的這個我想因為氣候變遷造成的這一次比較嚴重的傷害也是我們一個學習的樣本那我們會以這一些比較脆弱的部分我們會來強化我想這一次的這個經驗"},{"start":785.385,"end":811.502,"text":"我們會把所有的結構剛才你在垂詢的包括floating的這個系統確實在結構上面我們過去雖然有技師簽證過但是還是沒有辦法耐到時機急風所以我們會從這個上面來學習將來會把這些東西全部都來強化我希望能夠達到讓所有的用電戶能夠跟使用電的這個部分沒有斷電的這樣的一個"},{"start":814.403,"end":826.428,"text":"疑慮這樣的一個困擾往前往前部長我想的我不是只有針對floating的部分來來往前往前這個不能動好再往前好這個"},{"start":828.005,"end":855.446,"text":"我講的不是只有針對那個滯洪池喔我說以光電廠為例主要收集的是有效日照你光是你的數據跟管理你本身就要做調整跟增加了嘛我們會來這個考慮因為現在極端氣候嘛造成的這個變異非常的大那我們會來做這一方面的強化所以這樣的這個你們的這個管理跟監控機制的數據你們這是有發文的喔有真的是這個你們為什麼不動啊"},{"start":856.96,"end":867.056,"text":"目前的監控機制是有這個環境部他們在做啦那我們會來討論到底哪個部分要再加強這個機制不是環境部喔 是人員署喔人員署講個話吧"},{"start":869.384,"end":894.79,"text":"還是台電自己發布的我跟委員報告那個剛剛講的那幾塊因為涉及到電力調度的部分因為台電必須要知道說那個附近區域他到底光源可以發的怎麼樣所以台電他在每一天前一天他都會做一些預測所以他必須要要求說那些數據要可以提供給台電做調度"},{"start":895.95,"end":920.48,"text":"簡單啦 你要不要更新你這樣的再生人員場域各級數據管理機制這個是你們的一個對 這個部分我們會再跟台電檢討說這個後續要怎麼樣但是也跟委員澄清一下那個環評的部分環評的部分只要做完環評環境部就會去做監督那我們的演員署就會負責追蹤這個是法令上規定我們這個已經大概做了二十幾年了跟委員補充報告一下"},{"start":920.54,"end":936.745,"text":"追蹤啊所以那你追蹤當中有做數據的分析嗎有 那個數據我們有問那其實是你主責還是環境部主責追蹤的部分我們會把數據整理出來以後會將結果報到環境部所以這是錯的嘛沒有 法規是這樣規定的那你要調整法規啊你這個法規是"},{"start":940.706,"end":946.427,"text":"所以在給環境部的話也就是說今天啊風大雨大會影響電力那是環境部來告訴你嗎還是你自己主張兩個電廠是你主責所以呢我這個數據呈現之後所以你應該要做什麼樣的因應所以這就是你們兩個部門的矛盾點啦當然是你人員人員數啊所以你再繼續對那這個法你可以改啊"},{"start":970.1,"end":973.542,"text":"我是點問題 我不講 反正最後罵的是你但是本席最在意的是罵的是本執政黨罵的是本執政黨啊你這個電廠的數據你推給環境部 環境部收到這個數據之後他說對電廠會有什麼的衝擊然後他再告訴你 你不是多此一舉嗎"},{"start":993.464,"end":999.867,"text":"所以數據的分析跟你相關設備的這個因應的機制當然是你數據的分析包括日照我說光是一個光電廠光是它的下雨就會影響日照它的風力也會影響你的基礎結構包括你的強震包括都會影響結構這結構有你的土木結構你的建築的你的這個設備的結構都會影響啊"},{"start":1023.2,"end":1023.881,"text":"那就算這個數據不是你分析嗎 它只呈現這個數據而已啊我要說兩件事了 有關"},{"start":1032.79,"end":1060.548,"text":"這個電廠的營運的部分的資料我們自己會分析那個我們也會tag那不足的部分我們會檢討那這是委員說的第一塊第二塊有關環境監測數據是當初環境部它在環境影響評估審查的結論那個部分我們必須要報依環境影響評估法報到環境部去環境部就最後所以這是兩塊事情環境影響評估內的所有的數據你的環評所做的所有數據你都有百分百的監控嗎"},{"start":1063.233,"end":1079.546,"text":"會依照環評法最後的結論它要求我們目的使者決定要做追蹤的部分模擬業者所以並沒有全部嗎沒有它環評法最後的結論要我們追蹤什麼我們就會把追蹤的結果報到環境部去就是依它的最後的結論就是我們就依照結論來辦"},{"start":1081.227,"end":1101.621,"text":"對 你的結論就是說你有掌握在一個是你的結論的數據有沒有去做分析第一個是你的結論有沒有 只是依法嘛 那有沒有需要增加也許他業者做了10項 但是你最後監控的只有6項好 你依照規定的是6項 可是你發現到我其實是要這10項我全部都要繼續監控的喔好 第二個 這個監控的彼此之間的關係 我的這個對"},{"start":1106.364,"end":1131.812,"text":"自然資源 再生能源是來自天然資源啊所以天然資源對於這個你這個整個風場 整體風場的影響這才是你主責 我在意的是你的數據的完備性跟你的這個影響的這個數據的交叉的分析這才是重點 這才叫做科學管理啊科學數據 科學管理啊你要做到這點 那是不是要檢討呢有沒有檢討的必要我應該是說我們運轉數據的那些項目是不是"},{"start":1135.396,"end":1139.561,"text":"是不是要檢討啊這個部分我們好那就是如果你要檢討你要多久"},{"start":1140.68,"end":1155.267,"text":"你就能夠要去更新你的再生人員場域更新數據的監理機制啊跟委員報告一下 這個因為我們現在像太陽光店 鋒利這些我們其實都會隨著這個環境變遷去持續做檢討所以這個需要一點時間 這個我們到時候檢討完會跟委員報告好 OK 沒問題 我也不逼你時間再來你的電網末端輸送的電網任性 這個是台電講的話"},{"start":1168.072,"end":1195.002,"text":"向委員報告那因為這次我們也看到風災造成的這個災害這個災害的情境跟以往完全不一樣就是十六、十七級風所以這個部分對於如何強化我們的我們有分短期、中期、長期都會做一些因應那部長有一些指示那我們會盡速來辦理你對於本席講的電網末端輸送我最在意這個因為這跟我民生最有關係是的"},{"start":1195.702,"end":1209.372,"text":"對 我們不管你那個 你花了五千六百億我跟你講 人民是無感的但是對於你我都知這個是很重要的但是現在對人民最有感的就是我的跟我民生最末端的那個電網的一個脆弱性才是讓我民眾對於政府覺得非常的不信任就會導致說 這個是你的人員政策就會跳得太快了"},{"start":1220.68,"end":1234.705,"text":"那這個會不會影響民眾真的喔 就是你們政府的能源政策錯誤喔就會被導入這個狀態然後你跟他講說我已經花了五千六百億他還是聽不懂你花了五千六百億你怎麼還是讓我家的電信桿全部倒了還讓台電員工將近兩個禮拜不眠不休的倒入"},{"start":1239.426,"end":1243.548,"text":"那你那5600億花在哪裡我現在的質詢方法叫做反對黨的質詢方法但我相信這個是誤導式的質詢方法那民眾聽得下去聽不下去絕對聽得下去因為你花了5600億可是這5600億不是花在跟我民生最有關係的電網末端嘛就是我家前面那個電線港你不能倒啊因為一倒就是影響到我家人民在意的是這個啊"},{"start":1265.876,"end":1269.101,"text":"那這個我希望你對於全國性做個盤點做一個專案也許這個整個你盤點完後出來需要3000億比如說"},{"start":1274.966,"end":1301.728,"text":"我認為這是新的 從雲加南當中 這是新的方案而且是靠山靠海 靠水 不管靠山靠海 或者城鄉之間這才是新的話 本席講的這個是新的方案所以你覺得這個是不是應該 你要去想一下 評估一下這個是應該啟動這樣的一個電網末端的輸送方案才對啊是 我們會評估 因為部長有指示 我們會評估整個短中長期都會出來好 謝謝"},{"start":1303.882,"end":1307.191,"text":"好谢谢我们现在请陈婷飞"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1282,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（13時）有請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["林委員岱樺：本席想針對極端氣候衝擊再生能源設施！中央放手、地方無力，造成災害！這一次丹娜絲颱風從嘉義縣登陸，創120年紀錄，造成嘉義縣災情慘重，也多達71萬戶停電，這凸顯了極端氣候下，氣候風險所帶來的電力韌性因應其實是相對要有更高的標準。我們看丹娜絲颱風對於光電和風電案場的災損情形，本席針對極端氣候所造成的光電案場災損來做討論，在這次颱風當中，光電案場有14個案，其中大型案場的4個案都在滯洪池上，小型案場10個，而光電廠的災損部分，好在沒有人傷亡，但是設施是有損害的，風電廠是完全沒有災損，在設備上也沒有。我們來看發電量，這次光電廠發電量損失總裝置容量為32.62MW，也就是每天損失將近高峰用電量11.2萬度，光是這樣一個輕颱所造成的高峰用電量就有11.2萬度的損失，這是經濟部能源署所提供的數據。","本席在前兩次已經質詢過了，台電應該以綜合電業方式繼續經營，確保民生穩定，而在第二次的質詢當中，我有再次提到能源署應該評估建立再生能源場域各級數據監理機制，並且規劃台電場域先行試辦，以利後續推動要求到民營電廠，到底有沒有呢？剛才聽到謝衣鳯召委的質詢，他講得非常的好，你們根本沒有工具，你的工具在哪裡？你說要科學監理，哪裡有？等一下我再講你們的科學監理，所以這次是再生能源沒有環境數據監理機制，也就沒有預先防災的判斷和作為。我剛才就講到這次發生的災損都在滯洪池上，為什麼風電廠會沒有災損？因為它已經有這個機制了，只要風力達到什麼級速的時候，它就鎖住了，不會再進行風力運轉。但是這次在水域當中的光電廠，風力到達什麼級速的時候，滯洪池上的光電廠應該做怎麼樣的保護，譬如相關的繫電纜是不是應該加強，或繫纜要做加強，類似這樣的機制，我們是沒有的，所以在再生能源場域各級數據監理機制當中其實是有缺失的。","關於再生能源場域的數據監理機制，這邊都是台電公司回復給本席的文字，台電公司已經建立相關管理架構與運作規模，其實這是能源署管的，能源署說台電來管，我也講到能源署是有公權力的，但是它不管，你叫台電先試先行，要台電去管全國的，那不可能，它沒有公權力，所以它回復給本席的文字是，台電公司已經建立相關管理架構與運作模式，涵蓋配電級與輸電級的各再生能源數據監控與管理，以確保各再生能源的穩定併網及電網運行的可靠性。所以台電只重視發電與設備，這本來就是它的專業，它的專業在哪裡？它的專業不在於是不是自然環境的變化因素影響發電及設備的關聯性，重點是這個，所以你的監理機制和管理機制是只管發電及設備，我們期待的，包括剛才召委所講的，風、水、震會不會影響發電及設備，你是沒有辦法監理及管理的。你們的回文是這樣，台電的監控及管理機制都是以電力為出發點，這是本席爬梳出來你們的缺失，不能說缺失，應該是要再精進的部分，而非環境影響為優先考量，你們的監控機制叫什麼？依台電公司再生能源發電系統即時運轉資料提供及傳送方式原則，要求再生能源案場將資料回傳至調度中心，這個資料中心包括氣象資料，光電廠只有收集太陽光，你有沒有想到有效日照，降雨會不會影響有效日照，風力會不會影響光電廠的設備，強震和強風會不會影響光電廠的各項結構安全？其實是沒有的！","部長，我要凸顯出來讓你了解這個的嚴重性，就是因為光電廠只收集光，其他的降雨、風力、強震等環境因素就沒有了，所以你就沒有這個工具去做判斷，你的監理機制當中，除了單項的氣象資料之外，其他的都是電力，如有效電力瞬間值、無效電力瞬間值，這本來就是台電的強項，這個東西跟環境影響、電力有沒有關聯？沒有！台電的管理機制只做到什麼？要求各再生能源廠裝置相關的電驛保護措施，要怎麼保護電力，如果遇到強颱要怎麼保護電力，所以它這邊講的，比如電壓控制、頻率響應及故障穿越能力，其實還是一樣，它還是講電，所以相關的監理和管理都是以電為出發點，缺乏對於電廠安全與環境影響進行科學管理。","我們再來看，輕颱丹娜絲風災已經形成範圍性的天然災害，也凸顯再生能源不是僅有電力供應應該被管理，我們來看這幾個盲點，台電公司的管理機制都是僅針對電力供應本身，過去台電都是以單一電廠獨立作業，具備完整的應變能力，這其實是真的要感謝台電，怎麼樣完整的應變能力？在這次當中更凸顯了有充足的備品、隨時待命的輪值人員、緊急應變的機制，但是我們的民營再生能源廠有沒有這些東西？沒有，我們是沒有的。而綠能電廠是分散場域且位處基礎設施未完善地點，譬如都是農業貧瘠之地或者是地處偏遠，這些民營電廠除了地點這樣的特性之外，也缺乏人員駐點應變，這些民營電廠是沒有人員駐點的，更不要說對生態環境及水土保持可能會有影響等多項變數，在綠能電廠是完全沒有的，所以能源署不應該核准後就任由民營電廠自行管制。我已經質詢過兩次了，你說環境部在核准電廠時要做環境影響評估，做完之後就沒事了，但本席希望的是你要統籌這些電廠環境影響評估之後的數據，能源署要做全國統籌，之後隨時調整，20年期到了要換證、延展，你是不是要做一下評估，延展時應考量極端氣候條件的變化，各個設施當中應該要怎麼再加嚴要求。所以我期待的是你的環境影響評估，每個民營電廠都花了那麼多錢做，但是做完之後就沒事了，繳報告給環境部就可以了，之後就沒有了，誰要來做監理，你要環境部去監理你的電廠嗎？不可能啊！只有能源署，你不能拋給台電，台電哪有能力去管所有的民營電廠和地方政府，不可能！所以能源署就應該要統籌所有民營電廠整個數據的監控跟管理，地方政府本身沒有電力專業，台電又不具公權力，所以能源署現在不蒐集、掌握資料，就無法做決策的參考，現在也無法面對問題之外，未來也不能調整20年期滿的電廠展延機制。","為了兼顧再生能源與居民用電，本席有一個要求，全國區域電網骨幹的電力韌性我們投入5,600億，但這次風災凸顯電網末端輸送（last mile）遭遇極端氣候時的脆弱，請經濟部盤點全國區域地理特性，因地制宜規劃電網方案，並納入行政院的二次能源轉型。這是按照媒體講的，因為我不曉得二次能源轉型的細部計畫是什麼，我只看你報出來的，二次能源轉型包含多元綠能、深度節能、儲能技術應用、核能安全，本席要求你把電網末端輸送的方案納入二次能源轉型，要是全國區域性的，靠山、靠海、靠城市、靠偏鄉，像雲嘉南這次最嚴重，但它全部都是平原，依其區域特性的結果，你的電網規劃是什麼？如果針對我們山區，包括高雄市山區，面積幾乎占了高雄的一半以上，對這個部分的電網又要怎麼規劃？所以你在電網末端，尤其它對民生是最急切的，你們之前5,600億是在全國區域電網主幹線當中的電力網絡，但是在末端，對於民生最主要、最有感的電力輸送，你們有沒有規劃？沒有。所以本席要求你要重新重視這個部分，而且納入二次能源轉型，因為這個要經費啊！你不能全部都給地方、全部都給台電，那台電更要倒了。","最後本席具體要求，對於再生能源安全性、穩定性的強烈主張，所以要求兩件事情，要求經濟部能源署檢討、更新再生能源場域各級數據監理機制；第二個，規劃電網末端輸送的電網韌性方案，這是新的方案，以維持再生能源跟居民用電安全，這是雙重保障，所以部長怎麼看？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想你所垂詢的這個部分，我們都有在檢討，因為氣候變遷造成這次比較嚴重的傷害，也是我們學習的樣本，我們會來強化這些比較脆弱的部分。我想從這一次的經驗，我們會對所有的結構，剛才你在垂詢的包括floating系統，確實在結構上面，我們過去雖然有技師簽證過，但還是沒有辦法承受17級風，所以我們會從這上面來學習，將來會把這些東西全部都來做強化，我希望能夠達到讓所有的用電戶跟使用電的部分沒有斷電的疑慮及困擾。"],["林委員岱樺：部長，我不是只有針對floating的部分，我講的不是只有針對滯洪池，以光電場為例，主要收集的是有效日照，光是你的數據跟管理本身就要做調整，就要增加了嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：我們都會考慮，因為現在極端氣候造成的變異非常大，我們會來做這方面的強化。"],["林委員岱樺：所以你們管理跟監控機制的數據，這是有發文的……"],["郭部長智輝：目前的監控機制是由環境部在做，我們會來討論到底哪一個部分還要再加強……"],["林委員岱樺：這個機制不是環境部，是能源署。能源署講個話吧？還是台電自己發布的？"],["吳副署長志偉：我跟委員報告，剛剛講的那幾塊，因為涉及到電力調度的部分，因為台電必須要知道那個附近區域到底光電可以發得怎麼樣，台電在前一天都會做一些預測，所以它必須要求那些數據可以提供給台電做調度……"],["林委員岱樺：好，簡單啦！你要不要更新再生能源場域各級數據監理機制？這是你們發布出來的機制。"],["吳副署長志偉：對，我們會再跟台電檢討這個部分後續要怎麼做，但是也跟委員澄清一下環評的部分，只要做完環評，環境部就會做監督，能源署就會負責追蹤，這是法令上的規定，我們已經大概做了二十幾年，跟委員補充報告一下。"],["林委員岱樺：追蹤啊？"],["吳副署長志偉：對、對。"],["林委員岱樺：那你追蹤當中，有做數據的分析嗎？"],["吳副署長志偉：有，那個數據我們有問……"],["林委員岱樺：分析是你主責還是環境部主責？"],["吳副署長志偉：追蹤的部分，我們會把數據整理出來以後，將結果報到環境部。"],["林委員岱樺：所以這是錯的嘛！那你環境……"],["吳副署長志偉：沒有，法規是這樣規定。"],["林委員岱樺：那你要調整法規啊！這樣法規是……"],["吳副署長志偉：對，不好意思，跟委員報告，那個是環評法的規定。"],["林委員岱樺：好，你再給環境部的話，也就是今天風大、雨大會影響電力，那是環境部來告訴你嗎？還是你自己主張哪個電廠是你主責，這個數據呈現之後，你應該要做什麼樣的因應？這就是你們兩個部門的矛盾點，當然是你能源署啊！這個法你可以改啊！"],["吳副署長志偉：我是跟委員……"],["林委員岱樺：我告訴你，我是點出問題，我不講，反正最後罵的是你，但本席最在意的是罵的是本執政黨，罵的是本執政黨啊！電廠的數據你推給環境部，環境部收到這個數據之後，他說對電廠會有什麼衝擊，然後他再告訴你，不是多此一舉嗎？"],["吳副署長志偉：委員，這有兩個……"],["林委員岱樺：所以數據的分析跟相關設備的因應機制當然是你，數據的分析包括日照，一個光電場光是下雨就會影響日照，風力也會影響基礎結構，包括強震都會影響結構，這結構有土木結構、建築設備的結構，都會有影響啊！就算這個數據不是由你分析，他們只呈現這個數據而已啊？"],["吳副署長志偉：委員，我要說兩件事，有關電廠營運部分的資料，我們自己會分析，我們也會take，不足的部分我們會檢討，這是委員說的第一塊；第二塊，有關環境監測數據是當初環境部在環境影響評估審查的結論，那個部分我們必須要依環境影響評估法報到環境部，所以這是兩塊事情，跟委員報告。"],["林委員岱樺：好，在環境影響評估內的所有數據，你都有百分百的監控嗎？"],["吳副署長志偉：會依照環評法最後的結論，它要求目的事業主管機關要做追蹤的部分，我們會請業者將資料……"],["林委員岱樺：所以並沒有全部嘛？"],["吳副署長志偉：沒有，環評法最後的結論要我們追蹤什麼，我們就會把追蹤的結果報給環境部，就是依其最後的結論，我們就依照結論來辦。"],["林委員岱樺：對，你的結論就是你有掌握，我在意的是你結論的數據有沒有去做分析？第一個，你的結論是依法嘛！那有沒有需要增加？也許業者做了10項，但是你最後監控的只有6項，依照規定的是6項，可是你發現到其實這10項全部都要繼續監控。第二個，這個監控彼此之間的關係，再生能源是來自天然資源，所以天然資源對於整體風場的影響，這才是你主責的，我在意的是數據的完備性跟影響數據的交叉分析，這才是重點，這才叫做科學數據、科學管理，你要做到這點，那是不是要檢討呢？有沒有檢討的必要？"],["吳副署長志偉：委員應該是指我們運轉數據的那些項目是不是要檢討，這個部分我們會持續地……"],["林委員岱樺：好，如果你要檢討，需要多久？你就能夠去更新再生能源場域各級數據監理機制。"],["吳副署長志偉：跟委員報告一下，因為現在像太陽光電、風力等，我們其實都會隨著環境變遷持續去做檢討，所以這個需要一點時間，我們到時候檢討完會跟委員報告。"],["林委員岱樺：好，OK，沒問題，我也不逼你時間。再來，關於電網末端輸送的電網韌性，這是台電講的話。"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，因為這一次我們也看到風災造成的災害，此災害的情境跟以往完全不一樣，就是16、17級風，所以這個部分對於如何強化我們的……我們有分短期、中期、長期，都會做一些因應，部長也有一些指示，我們會儘速來辦理這方面的檢討。"],["林委員岱樺：你對於本席講的電網末端輸送，我最在意這個，因為這跟民生最有關係。"],["王總經理耀庭：是的。"],["林委員岱樺：對，你花了5,600億，我跟你講，人民是無感的，但是你我都知道這個是很重要的，現在對人民最有感的就是民生電網最末端的脆弱性，這才是讓民眾對於政府覺得非常不信任的原因，就會導入認為這個是你的能源政策、就會跳得太快，那這個會不會影響民眾認為這真的是政府的能源政策錯誤？就會被導入這個狀態。然後你跟他講說已經花了5,600億，他還是聽不懂，並且認為你花了5,600億怎麼還是讓我家的電線桿全部倒了，還讓台電員工將近兩個禮拜不眠不休的導入，那你的5,600億花在哪裡？我現在的質詢方法叫做反對黨的質詢方法，但這個是誤導式的質詢方法，那民眾聽得下去聽不下去？絕對聽得下去，因為你花了5,600億！可是這5,600億不是花在跟民生最有關係的電網末端，就是我家前面那個電線桿不能倒，因為一倒就是影響到我家，人民在意的是這個！","這方面我希望你全國性做個盤點、做一個專案，也許你整個盤點完後，譬如需要3,000億，我認為這是新的，從雲嘉南地區在這次的災損中，這是新的方案，而且是靠山、靠海、靠水，不管靠山、靠海或者城鄉之間，這才是新的方案，本席講的這個是新的方案！所以你要去想一下、評估一下是不是應該啟動這樣的一個電網末端輸送方案才對啊？"],["王總經理耀庭：是，我們會評估，因為部長有指示，我們會評估，整個短、中、長期都會出來。"],["林委員岱樺：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請陳亭妃委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-18","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","邱志偉","林俊憲","郭國文","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林岱樺","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-07-21"],"gazette_id":"1146802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146802_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、農業部部長、內政部首長及交通部首長就「丹娜絲颱風及0708豪雨災損及回復\n情形」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146802_00001"}}}