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Kacaw等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n十三、繼續審查委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n十四、繼續審查委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n十五、繼續審查委員王正旭等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n十六、繼續審查委員吳沛憶等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n十七、繼續審查委員游顥等17人擬具「兒童托育多元服務法草案」案。\n十八、繼續審查委員范雲等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n十九、繼續審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n二十、繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員張雅琳等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等26人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員陳菁徽等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n二十六、審查委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n二十七、審查委員劉建國等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n二十八、審查委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n二十九、審查委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。\n【逐條討論】\n【第二十九案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-08-06","start_time":"2025-08-06T13:11:17+08:00","end_time":"2025-08-06T13:32:49+08:00","duration":1292,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-23"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"id":"163395","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163395","tool":"pyannote","id":"163395-pyannote"},"job_id":"zWPmV3Ff05T6m9ip","queued_at":"2025-08-07 16:03:46","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2025-08-07 16:05:15","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163395","target":null},{"time":"2025-08-07 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\"end\": 415.668, \"text\": \"那這個拿到保護令的當事人這個是學者做的當事人有繼續說被騷擾通信有通信的行為的32.7%但是到9個月以後37.5%違反簽出令的然後正式到去報案的是另外一回事可是這個學者做的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 394.182, \"end\": 395.563, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"拿\", \"start\": 395.563, \"end\": 395.823, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 395.823, \"end\": 396.043, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 396.043, \"end\": 396.403, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"護\"}, {\"word\": \"令\", \"start\": 396.403, \"end\": 396.543, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 396.543, \"end\": 397.063, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 397.063, \"end\": 397.223, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 397.223, \"end\": 397.603, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 397.603, \"end\": 397.783, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 397.783, \"end\": 398.003, \"score\": 0.865}, 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{\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1282.285, \"end\": 1282.485, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"稍\", \"start\": 1282.485, \"end\": 1282.666, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"微\", \"start\": 1282.666, \"end\": 1283.127, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"談\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1283.127, \"end\": 1283.327, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 1283.327, \"end\": 1285.812, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1285.812, \"end\": 1286.333, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1286.333, \"end\": 1286.553, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1286.553, \"end\": 1286.713, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"指\", \"start\": 1286.713, \"end\": 1286.773, \"score\": 0.698}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 1286.773, \"end\": 1286.934, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1286.934, \"end\": 1287.475, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1287.475, \"end\": 1287.615, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 1287.615, \"end\": 1287.795, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"遵\", \"start\": 1287.795, \"end\": 1288.176, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 1288.176, \"end\": 1288.397, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1288.397, \"end\": 1288.497, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1288.497, \"end\": 1288.697, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 1288.697, \"end\": 1289.178, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"努\", \"start\": 1289.178, \"end\": 1289.358, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 1289.358, \"end\": 1289.378, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,370 --> 00:00:09,996\n好謝謝主席順便請我們邱部長有請邱部長委員好委員好\n\n2\n00:00:14,418 --> 00:00:39,848\n部長好今天大家都十分的關心這個議題我想這個議題很難用幾分鐘就可以談得清楚了那我現在開始講就是說其實很多在這個相關單位的比如說像婦幼這個保護專主擔任過檢察官的這個第一線的工作者他們也曾經指出家庭暴力防治法的保護措施聽好喔因為我要跟大家講我們要跟大家教育\n\n3\n00:00:42,669 --> 00:01:03,582\n這個保護鏈保護措施只能處理輕微的家庭暴力事件對嚴重的家庭暴力事件只能暫時治標但不治本我們都知道這個重大家庭暴力的加害人有很多的這個自身的困境其實是沒有辦法靠一紙保護鏈你就讓他可以改過的\n\n4\n00:01:05,743 --> 00:01:32,318\n所以不管是精神上的環境條件上的不論是酗酒的經濟不穩定的暴力習性的其實都很難在短時間內改過改掉他這個習慣靠著家庭暴力的習性來對其他的這個身邊的人所以被害人絕對不能很輕易的就以為這一個保護令其實是萬靈丹這個是基本教育但是\n\n5\n00:01:33,018 --> 00:01:37,261\n我覺得從這麼多的社會案件裡面我們包括立委在這裡諮詢裡面大家都一再強調說保護令應該是一個問名單其實這是很困難的所以特別是申請了保護令以後呢加害人對被害人會更怨遊所以在民事保護令拿到的時候或者是即將要失效的時候\n\n6\n00:01:57,674 --> 00:02:06,941\n加害人反而更容易再犯家庭暴力行為所以呢我們其實在面對這個家暴的行為的時候除了勇敢的報警除了勇敢的申請保護令其實我們現在要問責於這個部長\n\n7\n00:02:16,548 --> 00:02:32,896\n你覺得這些受害者要怎麼樣拿到保護令以後要用什麼手段要開始做什麼防範的工作然後可以讓自己免於再次的受暴你們有任何的教育給這一些受害者嗎報委員可不可以容許請市長簡單報告一下好來跟委員報告我們第一線提供的就是跟被害人討論安全計畫\n\n8\n00:02:46,175 --> 00:03:12,267\n你們確定都有提供嗎那安全保護計畫會包括說告訴他們說不要把保護令馬上就曝光去激怒他嗎會提醒我是很懷疑啦我是要告訴你我要舉一個恐怖情人一個臉書上的一篇的恐怖情人的他的如何自保自保我看了也覺得很困難\n\n9\n00:03:14,417 --> 00:03:43,796\n多年前遇過恐怖情人然後他們在一起但是呢他發現說這個恐怖情人某一天會很忙所以他知道他那一天就有空間可以逃脫他已經受控制了那他怎麼逃脫呢他要不動聲色的布局先到公司跟大家講說他要離哪一天要離職到時候你們必須要配合我然後呢偷偷的請朋友幫他協助申請新的手機門號然後他也知道他的自己的家人要搬家了\n\n10\n00:03:44,296 --> 00:04:03,246\n都確定新的住所他都不用原來的手機了所以到加害人要很忙的那一天來的時候呢然後呢他加害人把他鎖在房間裡面不讓他行動自由嘛所以他就從床底下拿出他新辦的手機門號打電話給房東房東就帶著鎖匠幫他開門讓他走了開著貨車幫他搬家\n\n11\n00:04:08,849 --> 00:04:30,323\n然後他就馬上把原本的手機關機註銷社群全部都刪除徹底從這個恐怖的情人加害者的生活裡面消失後來這個家人加害者就去問同事然後就問房東然後找他的家人結果同事房東都開始罵這一個被害者說他怎麼偷跑了他們合力演了一齣戲\n\n12\n00:04:31,684 --> 00:04:54,596\n然後他就成功了從這一個加害者的生活裡面消失了然後後來他又他在臉書上發文但他都已經不是原來的帳號了他在社群全部開新帳號然後都申請新的過去的手機的通訊錄全部刪光因為只要有通訊錄就會有自動跑出社群軟體的帳號還會繼續連結\n\n13\n00:04:57,717 --> 00:05:24,454\n所以呢他連戶籍都掛在戶政事務所勞健保工會信件都用郵政信箱收信所以有的東西他都沒有用自己的名字辦真實的這個帳號都是用室友的就是遇到一次恐怖的情人的下場一輩子活在陰影裡面我今天是要告訴你其實是很困難的而今天我要再舉一個例子是\n\n14\n00:05:26,918 --> 00:05:49,158\n統計數據你知道嗎你們的除了這個制度面待會再討論現在加強電子監控再討論以外我們現在要講的是說在社會政策和社會工作學刊2010年的期刊文章裡面親密伴侶的暴力案件保護令成效和相關因素的研究以禁制遷出和遠離令為例\n\n15\n00:05:52,340 --> 00:06:14,477\n這個學者呢這個王佩玲就寫了一篇這個她的發表的期刊他們在保護令核發以後三個月內第一次做調查然後在第九個月做第二次追蹤調查然後發現這個表格在這裡你看你發了保護令然後違反禁止令還繼續有肢體暴力的佔了18.9%19%將近兩成\n\n16\n00:06:17,779 --> 00:06:30,878\n保護令都發了違反禁制令有恐嚇的言語或行為者29.9%佔了三成在三個月內但是到第九個月的時候還更嚴重他就32.9%\n\n17\n00:06:34,182 --> 00:06:55,668\n那這個拿到保護令的當事人這個是學者做的當事人有繼續說被騷擾通信有通信的行為的32.7%但是到9個月以後37.5%違反簽出令的然後正式到去報案的是另外一回事可是這個學者做的\n\n18\n00:06:56,368 --> 00:07:04,975\n他的第一次調查三個月內違反簽出令31.9%違反遠離令的30.4%然後到九個月以後違反簽出令還繼續增加到34.5%但是違反遠離令的有稍微降了一點點我是要講這個是要講什麼呢你看\n\n19\n00:07:20,303 --> 00:07:47,744\n這個違反保護令的佔全部案件的有40.940就案件分析他的學者就案件分析違反保護令案件佔全部案件的比例大概40.9也就是說10件的保護令的案件當中有4件會違反保護令中之一款或一款以上的內容再者違反這個保護令合法9個月以後你看還\n\n20\n00:07:49,045 --> 00:08:04,050\n不會因為時間拉長而施暴者或是加害者他的這個違反違法的行為會降低或減少換句話說違反保護令的比例是呈現穩定的狀態我在這裡是要告訴你們也要告訴大家\n\n21\n00:08:09,788 --> 00:08:29,360\n這一些人真的很難因為一尺保護令然後就嚇阻他因為這一個法律所劃定的民事保護令是一個紅線叫他不能再犯對有社經地位有工作的人或者是經濟穩定的人來或許有點嚇阻作用但對那一些\n\n22\n00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:53,891\n或出去了什麼都不在乎的真的是困難啦所以研究者在先前進行這個前導研究對被害人的訪談的時候他們發現一些被害人表示施暴者在核發保護令後表面上肢體暴力沒有了但是會轉而用精神上或其他方面的攻擊或騷擾\n\n23\n00:08:55,111 --> 00:09:16,366\n然後一方面讓被害人難以蒐證一方面也達到他繼續施暴的目的好看這樣的數字有沒有覺得觸目驚心但是我要問你在座的各位各位不管是衛福部教育部勞動部警政單位法務主管移民單位文化主管通訊傳播主管對違反保護令的數據這一些數據這麼多人你們可以做什麼你們可以做什麼\n\n24\n00:09:24,712 --> 00:09:52,350\n現在談到電子監控好了來了大家覺得靠一個電子監控就可以了嗎來電子監控那一年有多少的案件啊如果違反家庭暴力罪去年4155個違反保護令罪去年2405個那要誰監控警政署有人力可以監控嗎社家署有人力可以監控嗎\n\n25\n00:09:54,163 --> 00:09:59,266\n來等一下回答我那我還要再問我對我現在要再問你包括法務部我也要問你了喔以前男人要叫打過了扁換取很多次的驗傷單才能換到一張保護令而現在不用了可是呢如果一個恐怖情人來了你要羈押他\n\n26\n00:10:16,519 --> 00:10:37,972\n又要被打多少次他違反了多少次還要去報警報了多少遍因為家庭暴力防治法認為有足夠的事實認為反復實施前開犯罪之餘而有羈押之必要者得羈押要反復反復\n\n27\n00:10:39,858 --> 00:10:51,662\n對不對構成要件要反覆嘛有認為有可能反覆之餘嘛有可能會繼續的所以你要去報案要求要羈押法官要裁定羈押要被判很多次要對方加害者違反保護令很多次\n\n28\n00:11:00,916 --> 00:11:05,358\n這樣才會羈押,所以剛才在說羈押的我們羈押的這個層數高達七八成說這句話的,因為要骨子扁那大家講電子監控我倒沒,那這個羈押制度有沒有需要改變啊我還要再打骨子扁,對方要違法,違骨子扁你才可以羈押,可是你來看喔你來看喔\n\n29\n00:11:29,465 --> 00:11:51,683\n包括土城的兩個姊妹被殺都是被殺以後才羈押包括台中車站的被殺以後才羈押包括這一個那個事件就我們前一陣子那個不是土城命案也不是風雲就是這個古姓女子的命案第一次\n\n30\n00:11:54,704 --> 00:12:00,429\n他的風險評估也不可能擠壓那擠壓線要畫在哪裡電子監控要畫在哪裡警政單位有沒有足夠的人力可以監控電子監控社政單位有沒有足夠的人力和資源可以監控回答大家不要唱高調你不去公共的公安電子監控電子監控\n\n31\n00:12:20,482 --> 00:12:29,585\n現在來電子監控都一單位人在對主管在對怎麼都沒有人可以回答社政單位先警政署剛才不是有來跑了好來你也上來講法務部也上來講大家有沒有知道電子監控電子監控那條線要劃在哪裡什麼程度然後呢有沒有人力有沒有資源好\n\n32\n00:12:51,271 --> 00:13:01,815\n包委員我想謝謝您分析了這麼多也給這麼多data讓我們心情非常沉重覺得這個真的是非常非常的必須要來\n\n33\n00:13:04,114 --> 00:13:25,396\n來做好所謂的該做的事情不要講這一些不要講你個人的心情你告訴我我問的問題趕快回答就好了那該做的如果說大家研議到電子的一個監測是必要的你是加爆防治法的主管機關你必須要全面性的對制度面還有防治措施你必須要有全面性的看法\n\n34\n00:13:26,016 --> 00:13:42,522\n但是我還不包括你家庭暴力防治法裡面規定每四年對家暴的問題防治的現況成效和需求要進行調查分析然後呢你們公布了2016到2019年我們也是很不滿意那一份報告但是2020到現在2020到現在第六年了你們連2020到2023年的這個\n\n35\n00:13:51,328 --> 00:14:04,156\n家暴防治報告都還沒有公告更不要講如果你對家暴的狀況有像剛才那個學者那樣子的研究你們有做過委託研究嗎?有嗎?有嗎?那個市長是...你只要研究就沒有不知道這家害者跟被害者所遇到的處境是何等的辛苦和何等的可怕\n\n36\n00:14:17,813 --> 00:14:22,639\n阿你們怎麼去談防治呢?是謝委員防治不是在自己的範圍裏面說馬上拿出一套版權沒有那麼簡單啦市民國家報告我們目前都整理好那2020到2023年到現在才整理好\n\n37\n00:14:34,833 --> 00:14:57,792\n那應該會很快就公佈今年2025年第二個在整個家暴的工作上面他的確是網絡工作絕對不是靠單一部會能夠完成至於將來如果要實施電子監控我想也不是全面應該做危險分級以及這個分流管理那我想這個部分我們會再跟網絡大家一起來討論來朝這個方向來如果要電子監控你分級\n\n38\n00:15:04,797 --> 00:15:09,680\n去做監控沒關係但是我想妳有辦法做嗎妳有人力可以做嗎蛤這個就需要討論對啊那來警政單位如果再交給警察機關有辦法嗎這個要看到時候有多少對象要列進去多少對象是你們可負擔的一萬個五千個所以現在是要依據你們的量能來決定要可負擔然後才再決定分級怎麼劃嗎\n\n39\n00:15:35,432 --> 00:15:36,159\n這個就本末倒置囉\n\n40\n00:15:38,868 --> 00:16:01,485\n我現在要問的是說到底你的依據加害者的風險程度然後要分級那如果分級出來可能劃進來依照每年的違反家庭暴力罪或者是違反保護令罪的或者是他根本也沒有犯到罪但是他的風險很高的一開始風險就很高都要劃入的話那人很多來司法單位\n\n41\n00:16:11,497 --> 00:16:38,014\n跟委員報告你覺得這樣子的制度的設計對啊那有可能最有可能的方法是什麼對有關那個電子監控的部分將來如果要實施當然就涉及到人力設備以及這個相關的量能經費等等問題那當然這個就有賴那個衛福部再去召集相關的會議來做再做演商那我們都遵守就進行了編制你們都有辦法嗎\n\n42\n00:16:39,625 --> 00:17:06,300\n法務部警政單位社政單位我們現行的編制針對那個科控的部分主要是針對那個防逃的部分那當然沒有包括這個部分對啊當然這也不是防逃了它可能是縝密的隨時要看在那裡啊或者是你必須用大數據和程式程式設計然後只要踩到什麼線它就立即馬上響了喔這個搞不好是科技部的單位可以做得到吧科技部\n\n43\n00:17:07,503 --> 00:17:30,877\n沒有人來科技部沒有人來這樣子喔那如果人力上規劃會是哪一個單位哪個部門我們看衛福部他們將來的那個討論就算有的人力都沒有了警政的人力也在缺少法務部更不可能這要需不需要修法法務部需不需要修法\n\n44\n00:17:31,878 --> 00:17:42,182\n因為這個針對被害人保護的這個科控是屬於這個民事保護令的範圍那目前的限制是沒有的所以他必須要透過法律的修訂才能對阿修法要看日費時阿好保證這樣你聽到嗎不是在為大家公送來電子監控電子監控一句話很簡單的但是呢現在要落實要做要怎麼做\n\n45\n00:17:57,802 --> 00:18:24,380\n再來我要說的是難道就只有電子監控一條途徑嗎沒有其他我們行政、社政、警政部門可以做的更多的嗎所以我剛剛講那個是說啊保定是政府連調查近年來的違反的樣態比例有哪一些有沒有跨部會如何動用資源協助被害人然後再加以輔導等等如果\n\n46\n00:18:26,917 --> 00:18:38,423\n如果加害人千萬不要害人的公司你要怎麼因應然後如果有小孩的話那要怎麼因應所以在這種狀況裡面都不是剛剛講電子監控而已因為\n\n47\n00:18:39,980 --> 00:18:56,750\n道高於尺魔高於杖你想不到的又很多但是受害者他的社會經驗不一定足夠可以因應而你的社政單位你的主管機關你對於這樣的社會教育你做了哪一些剛才我說的自立救濟的這一個人那是聰明的因為他都自立救濟讓自己從加害者的生活圈裡面徹底失蹤\n\n48\n00:19:09,431 --> 00:19:32,568\n可是一般人都很難而且想不到欸更何況說一拿到你馬上放到網路上給大家宣告其實這是一刀兩刃非常危險的動作當然我們不能指責他我認為是因為我們社政單位我們的警政單位我們的政府都沒有教導被害人要怎麼因應啊\n\n49\n00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:53,258\n我們到底有沒有教育教育所有的這個社會的人說這個保護令這個民事保護令是圖是要讓遵守的人遵守的啦那個不愛命的亂來的根本就不好的啦他沒有辦法物理上阻隔加害者對你的這個靠近那個嚇阻作用而已\n\n50\n00:19:58,499 --> 00:20:22,164\n可是當嚇阻不行的時候我們當然要加強到另外一個層次那還要修法那還牽扯到人力那在修法跟人力到位以前又有多少人是暴露在風險之下會不會馬上就又有傷害事件暴力事件又來了所以現在緊急要做的是你要趕緊再教育社會大眾\n\n51\n00:20:24,386 --> 00:20:46,701\n對不對不是只有那些人說拿到了就是護身符啊拿到保護令如果弄得不好的話有可能的確是催命符啊因為董事長你要申請積壓他可能就要跟你損害加害者你說申請保護令拿到了他豁出去了所以當拿到保護令的時候是最危險的時候這個時候我們應該要教育社會大眾應該要怎麼防範啊\n\n52\n00:20:53,976 --> 00:21:00,317\n對不對啊我們都沒有啊我覺得都沒有啊保護令就是一萬兩的這樣事情就大了啦所以這個要討論的問題很大但我剛剛講的羈押拜託不要再申請保護令一樣要求破骨的蓋甚至冒著被殺的風險才可以被要求羈押加害者\n\n53\n00:21:21,123 --> 00:21:29,378\n羈押制度也是要稍微談一下好謝謝委員的指教我們一定遵照這樣的一個建議來努力謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5370\t9996\t好 謝謝主席 順便請我們邱部長有請邱部長委員好 委員好\n14418\t39848\t部長好今天大家都十分的關心這個議題我想這個議題很難用幾分鐘就可以談得清楚了那我現在開始講就是說其實很多在這個相關單位的比如說像婦幼這個保護專主擔任過檢察官的這個第一線的工作者他們也曾經指出家庭暴力防治法的保護措施聽好喔因為我要跟大家講我們要跟大家教育\n42669\t63582\t這個保護鏈保護措施只能處理輕微的家庭暴力事件對嚴重的家庭暴力事件只能暫時治標但不治本我們都知道這個重大家庭暴力的加害人有很多的這個自身的困境其實是沒有辦法靠一紙保護鏈你就讓他可以改過的\n65743\t92318\t所以不管是精神上的環境條件上的不論是酗酒的經濟不穩定的暴力習性的其實都很難在短時間內改過改掉他這個習慣靠著家庭暴力的習性來對其他的這個身邊的人所以被害人絕對不能很輕易的就以為這一個保護令其實是萬靈丹這個是基本教育但是\n93018\t97261\t我覺得從這麼多的社會案件裡面我們包括立委在這裡諮詢裡面大家都一再強調說保護令應該是一個問名單其實這是很困難的所以特別是申請了保護令以後呢加害人對被害人會更怨遊所以在民事保護令拿到的時候或者是即將要失效的時候\n117674\t126941\t加害人反而更容易再犯家庭暴力行為所以呢我們其實在面對這個家暴的行為的時候除了勇敢的報警 除了勇敢的申請保護令其實我們現在要問責於這個部長\n136548\t152896\t你覺得這些受害者要怎麼樣拿到保護令以後要用什麼手段要開始做什麼防範的工作然後可以讓自己免於再次的受暴你們有任何的教育給這一些受害者嗎報委員可不可以容許請市長簡單報告一下好來跟委員報告我們第一線提供的就是跟被害人討論安全計畫\n166175\t192267\t你們確定都有提供嗎那安全保護計畫會包括說告訴他們說不要把保護令馬上就曝光去激怒他嗎會提醒我是很懷疑啦我是要告訴你我要舉一個恐怖情人一個臉書上的一篇的恐怖情人的他的如何自保自保我看了也覺得很困難\n194417\t223796\t多年前遇過恐怖情人然後他們在一起但是呢他發現說這個恐怖情人某一天會很忙所以他知道他那一天就有空間可以逃脫他已經受控制了那他怎麼逃脫呢他要不動聲色的布局先到公司跟大家講說他要離哪一天要離職到時候你們必須要配合我然後呢偷偷的請朋友幫他協助申請新的手機門號然後他也知道他的自己的家人要搬家了\n224296\t243246\t都確定新的住所 他都不用原來的手機了所以到加害人要很忙的那一天來的時候呢然後呢 他加害人把他鎖在房間裡面不讓他行動自由嘛所以他就從床底下拿出他新辦的手機門號打電話給房東 房東就帶著鎖匠幫他開門讓他走了 開著貨車幫他搬家\n248849\t270323\t然後他就馬上把原本的手機關機註銷社群全部都刪除徹底從這個恐怖的情人加害者的生活裡面消失後來這個家人加害者就去問同事然後就問房東然後找他的家人結果同事房東都開始罵這一個被害者說他怎麼偷跑了他們合力演了一齣戲\n271684\t294596\t然後他就成功了從這一個加害者的生活裡面消失了然後後來他又 他在臉書上發文但他都已經不是原來的帳號了他在社群全部開新帳號然後都申請新的過去的手機的通訊錄全部刪光因為只要有通訊錄就會有自動跑出社群軟體的帳號還會繼續連結\n297717\t324454\t所以呢他連戶籍都掛在戶政事務所勞健保工會信件都用郵政信箱收信所以有的東西他都沒有用自己的名字辦真實的這個帳號都是用室友的就是遇到一次恐怖的情人的下場一輩子活在陰影裡面我今天是要告訴你其實是很困難的而今天我要再舉一個例子是\n326918\t349158\t統計數據你知道嗎你們的除了這個制度面待會再討論現在加強電子監控再討論以外我們現在要講的是說在社會政策和社會工作學刊2010年的期刊文章裡面親密伴侶的暴力案件保護令成效和相關因素的研究以禁制遷出和遠離令為例\n352340\t374477\t這個學者呢這個王佩玲就寫了一篇這個她的發表的期刊他們在保護令核發以後三個月內第一次做調查然後在第九個月做第二次追蹤調查然後發現這個表格在這裡你看你發了保護令然後違反禁止令還繼續有肢體暴力的佔了18.9% 19% 將近兩成\n377779\t390878\t保護令都發了違反禁制令有恐嚇的言語或行為者29.9%佔了三成在三個月內但是到第九個月的時候還更嚴重他就32.9%\n394182\t415668\t那這個拿到保護令的當事人這個是學者做的當事人有繼續說被騷擾通信有通信的行為的32.7%但是到9個月以後37.5%違反簽出令的然後正式到去報案的是另外一回事可是這個學者做的\n416368\t424975\t他的第一次調查三個月內違反簽出令31.9%違反遠離令的30.4%然後到九個月以後違反簽出令還繼續增加到34.5%但是違反遠離令的有稍微降了一點點我是要講這個 是要講什麼呢 你看\n440303\t467744\t這個違反保護令的佔全部案件的有40.940就案件分析他的學者就案件分析違反保護令案件佔全部案件的比例大概40.9也就是說10件的保護令的案件當中有4件會違反保護令中之一款或一款以上的內容再者違反這個保護令合法9個月以後你看還\n469045\t484050\t不會因為時間拉長而施暴者或是加害者他的這個違反違法的行為會降低或減少換句話說違反保護令的比例是呈現穩定的狀態我在這裡是要告訴你們也要告訴大家\n489788\t509360\t這一些人真的很難因為一尺保護令然後就嚇阻他因為這一個法律所劃定的民事保護令是一個紅線叫他不能再犯對有社經地位有工作的人或者是經濟穩定的人來或許有點嚇阻作用但對那一些\n510240\t533891\t或出去了什麼都不在乎的真的是困難啦所以研究者在先前進行這個前導研究對被害人的訪談的時候他們發現一些被害人表示施暴者在核發保護令後表面上肢體暴力沒有了但是會轉而用精神上或其他方面的攻擊或騷擾\n535111\t556366\t然後一方面讓被害人難以蒐證 一方面也達到他繼續施暴的目的好 看這樣的數字 有沒有覺得觸目驚心但是我要問你 在座的各位各位不管是衛福部 教育部 勞動部警政單位 法務主管 移民單位 文化主管 通訊傳播主管對違反保護令的數據這一些數據這麼多人你們可以做什麼 你們可以做什麼\n564712\t592350\t現在談到電子監控好了來了大家覺得靠一個電子監控就可以了嗎來電子監控那一年有多少的案件啊如果違反家庭暴力罪去年4155個違反保護令罪去年2405個那要誰監控警政署有人力可以監控嗎社家署有人力可以監控嗎\n594163\t599266\t來 等一下回答我 那我還要再問我對我現在要再問你 包括法務部我也要問你了喔以前 男人要叫 打過了扁換取很多次的驗傷單 才能換到一張保護令而現在不用了 可是呢如果一個恐怖情人來了 你要羈押他\n616519\t637972\t又要被打多少次 他違反了多少次還要去報警報了多少遍因為家庭暴力防治法 認為有足夠的事實認為反復實施前開犯罪之餘 而有羈押之必要者得羈押要反復反復\n639858\t651662\t對不對 構成要件要反覆嘛 有認為有可能反覆之餘嘛有可能會繼續的 所以你要去報案 要求要羈押法官要裁定羈押 要被判很多次 要對方加害者違反保護令很多次\n660916\t665358\t這樣才會羈押,所以剛才在說羈押的我們羈押的這個層數高達七八成說這句話的,因為要骨子扁那大家講電子監控我倒沒,那這個羈押制度有沒有需要改變啊我還要再打骨子扁,對方要違法,違骨子扁你才可以羈押,可是你來看喔你來看喔\n689465\t711683\t包括土城的兩個姊妹被殺都是被殺以後才羈押包括台中車站的被殺以後才羈押包括這一個那個事件就我們前一陣子那個不是土城命案也不是風雲就是這個古姓女子的命案第一次\n714704\t720429\t他的風險評估 也不可能擠壓那擠壓線要畫在哪裡 電子監控要畫在哪裡警政單位有沒有足夠的人力可以監控電子監控 社政單位有沒有足夠的人力和資源可以監控回答大家不要唱高調你不去公共的公安 電子監控 電子監控\n740482\t749585\t現在來電子監控都一單位人在對 主管在對 怎麼都沒有人可以回答 社政單位先警政署剛才不是有來跑了好來你也上來講法務部也上來講大家有沒有知道電子監控電子監控那條線要劃在哪裡什麼程度然後呢有沒有人力有沒有資源好\n771271\t781815\t包委員我想謝謝您分析了這麼多也給這麼多data讓我們心情非常沉重覺得這個真的是非常非常的必須要來\n784114\t805396\t來做好所謂的該做的事情不要講這一些不要講你個人的心情你告訴我我問的問題趕快回答就好了那該做的如果說大家研議到電子的一個監測是必要的你是加爆防治法的主管機關你必須要全面性的對制度面還有防治措施你必須要有全面性的看法\n806016\t822522\t但是我還不包括你家庭暴力防治法裡面規定每四年對家暴的問題防治的現況成效和需求要進行調查分析然後呢你們公布了2016到2019年我們也是很不滿意那一份報告但是2020到現在2020到現在第六年了你們連2020到2023年的這個\n831328\t844156\t家暴防治報告都還沒有公告更不要講如果你對家暴的狀況有像剛才那個學者那樣子的研究你們有做過委託研究嗎?有嗎?有嗎?那個市長是...你只要研究就沒有不知道這家害者跟被害者所遇到的處境是何等的辛苦和何等的可怕\n857813\t862639\t阿你們怎麼去談防治呢?是謝委員 防治不是在自己的範圍裏面說馬上拿出一套版權沒有那麼簡單啦市民國家報告我們目前都整理好那2020到2023年到現在才整理好\n874833\t897792\t那應該會很快就公佈 今年2025年第二個在整個家暴的工作上面他的確是網絡工作絕對不是靠單一部會能夠完成至於將來如果要實施電子監控我想也不是全面應該做危險分級以及這個分流管理那我想這個部分我們會再跟網絡大家一起來討論來朝這個方向來 如果要電子監控你分級\n904797\t909680\t去做監控沒關係 但是我想妳有辦法做嗎 妳有人力可以做嗎蛤 這個就需要討論對啊 那來警政單位 如果再交給警察機關有辦法嗎這個要看到時候有多少對象要列進去多少對象是你們可負擔的一萬個 五千個所以現在是要依據你們的量能來決定要可負擔 然後才再決定分級怎麼劃嗎\n935432\t936159\t這個就本末倒置囉\n938868\t961485\t我現在要問的是說到底你的依據加害者的風險程度然後要分級那如果分級出來可能劃進來依照每年的違反家庭暴力罪或者是違反保護令罪的或者是他根本也沒有犯到罪但是他的風險很高的一開始風險就很高都要劃入的話那人很多來 司法單位\n971497\t998014\t跟委員報告你覺得這樣子的制度的設計對啊那有可能最有可能的方法是什麼對有關那個電子監控的部分將來如果要實施當然就涉及到人力設備以及這個相關的量能經費等等問題那當然這個就有賴那個衛福部再去召集相關的會議來做再做演商那我們都遵守就進行了編制你們都有辦法嗎\n999625\t1026300\t法務部 警政單位 社政單位我們現行的編制針對那個科控的部分主要是針對那個防逃的部分那當然沒有包括這個部分對啊 當然這也不是防逃了它可能是縝密的隨時要看在那裡啊或者是你必須用大數據和程式程式設計然後只要踩到什麼線它就立即馬上響了喔這個搞不好是科技部的單位可以做得到吧 科技部\n1027503\t1050877\t沒有人來 科技部沒有人來這樣子喔那如果人力上規劃會是哪一個單位 哪個部門我們看衛福部他們將來的那個討論就算有的人力都沒有了警政的人力也在缺少法務部更不可能這要 需不需要修法法務部需不需要修法\n1051878\t1062182\t因為這個針對被害人保護的這個科控是屬於這個民事保護令的範圍那目前的限制是沒有的所以他必須要透過法律的修訂才能對阿修法要看日費時阿好 保證這樣你聽到嗎不是在為大家公送來電子監控電子監控一句話很簡單的但是呢 現在要落實要做要怎麼做\n1077802\t1104380\t再來我要說的是難道就只有電子監控一條途徑嗎沒有其他我們行政、社政、警政部門可以做的更多的嗎所以我剛剛講那個是說啊保定是政府連調查近年來的違反的樣態比例有哪一些有沒有跨部會如何動用資源協助被害人然後再加以輔導等等如果\n1106917\t1118423\t如果加害人千萬不要害人的公司你要怎麼因應然後如果有小孩的話那要怎麼因應所以在這種狀況裡面都不是剛剛講電子監控而已因為\n1119980\t1136750\t道高於尺 魔高於杖 你想不到的又很多但是受害者他的社會經驗不一定足夠可以因應而你的社政單位 你的主管機關你對於這樣的社會教育 你做了哪一些剛才我說的自立救濟的這一個人那是聰明的 因為他都自立救濟讓自己從加害者的生活圈裡面徹底失蹤\n1149431\t1172568\t可是一般人都很難而且想不到欸更何況說一拿到你馬上放到網路上給大家宣告其實這是一刀兩刃非常危險的動作當然我們不能指責他我認為是因為我們社政單位我們的警政單位我們的政府都沒有教導被害人要怎麼因應啊\n1174400\t1193258\t我們到底有沒有教育 教育所有的這個社會的人說這個保護令 這個民事保護令是圖是要讓遵守的人遵守的啦那個不愛命的 亂來的 根本就不好的啦他沒有辦法物理上阻隔加害者對你的這個靠近那個嚇阻作用而已\n1198499\t1222164\t可是當嚇阻不行的時候 我們當然要加強到另外一個層次那還要修法 那還牽扯到人力那在修法跟人力到位以前又有多少人是暴露在風險之下會不會馬上就又有傷害事件 暴力事件又來了所以現在緊急要做的是 你要趕緊再教育社會大眾\n1224386\t1246701\t對不對 不是只有那些人說拿到了 就是護身符啊拿到保護令 如果弄得不好的話有可能的確是催命符啊因為董事長你要申請積壓 他可能就要跟你損害加害者 你說申請保護令 拿到了 他豁出去了所以當拿到保護令的時候是最危險的時候這個時候 我們應該要教育社會大眾應該要怎麼防範啊\n1253976\t1260317\t對不對 啊我們都沒有啊 我覺得都沒有啊保護令就是一萬兩的 這樣事情就大了啦所以這個要討論的問題很大 但我剛剛講的羈押拜託不要再申請保護令 一樣 要求破骨的蓋甚至冒著被殺的風險 才可以被要求羈押加害者\n1281123\t1289378\t羈押制度也是要稍微談一下好謝謝委員的指教我們一定遵照這樣的一個建議來努力謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 順便請我們邱部長有請邱部長委員好 委員好\n部長好今天大家都十分的關心這個議題我想這個議題很難用幾分鐘就可以談得清楚了那我現在開始講就是說其實很多在這個相關單位的比如說像婦幼這個保護專主擔任過檢察官的這個第一線的工作者他們也曾經指出家庭暴力防治法的保護措施聽好喔因為我要跟大家講我們要跟大家教育\n這個保護鏈保護措施只能處理輕微的家庭暴力事件對嚴重的家庭暴力事件只能暫時治標但不治本我們都知道這個重大家庭暴力的加害人有很多的這個自身的困境其實是沒有辦法靠一紙保護鏈你就讓他可以改過的\n所以不管是精神上的環境條件上的不論是酗酒的經濟不穩定的暴力習性的其實都很難在短時間內改過改掉他這個習慣靠著家庭暴力的習性來對其他的這個身邊的人所以被害人絕對不能很輕易的就以為這一個保護令其實是萬靈丹這個是基本教育但是\n我覺得從這麼多的社會案件裡面我們包括立委在這裡諮詢裡面大家都一再強調說保護令應該是一個問名單其實這是很困難的所以特別是申請了保護令以後呢加害人對被害人會更怨遊所以在民事保護令拿到的時候或者是即將要失效的時候\n加害人反而更容易再犯家庭暴力行為所以呢我們其實在面對這個家暴的行為的時候除了勇敢的報警 除了勇敢的申請保護令其實我們現在要問責於這個部長\n你覺得這些受害者要怎麼樣拿到保護令以後要用什麼手段要開始做什麼防範的工作然後可以讓自己免於再次的受暴你們有任何的教育給這一些受害者嗎報委員可不可以容許請市長簡單報告一下好來跟委員報告我們第一線提供的就是跟被害人討論安全計畫\n你們確定都有提供嗎那安全保護計畫會包括說告訴他們說不要把保護令馬上就曝光去激怒他嗎會提醒我是很懷疑啦我是要告訴你我要舉一個恐怖情人一個臉書上的一篇的恐怖情人的他的如何自保自保我看了也覺得很困難\n多年前遇過恐怖情人然後他們在一起但是呢他發現說這個恐怖情人某一天會很忙所以他知道他那一天就有空間可以逃脫他已經受控制了那他怎麼逃脫呢他要不動聲色的布局先到公司跟大家講說他要離哪一天要離職到時候你們必須要配合我然後呢偷偷的請朋友幫他協助申請新的手機門號然後他也知道他的自己的家人要搬家了\n都確定新的住所 他都不用原來的手機了所以到加害人要很忙的那一天來的時候呢然後呢 他加害人把他鎖在房間裡面不讓他行動自由嘛所以他就從床底下拿出他新辦的手機門號打電話給房東 房東就帶著鎖匠幫他開門讓他走了 開著貨車幫他搬家\n然後他就馬上把原本的手機關機註銷社群全部都刪除徹底從這個恐怖的情人加害者的生活裡面消失後來這個家人加害者就去問同事然後就問房東然後找他的家人結果同事房東都開始罵這一個被害者說他怎麼偷跑了他們合力演了一齣戲\n然後他就成功了從這一個加害者的生活裡面消失了然後後來他又 他在臉書上發文但他都已經不是原來的帳號了他在社群全部開新帳號然後都申請新的過去的手機的通訊錄全部刪光因為只要有通訊錄就會有自動跑出社群軟體的帳號還會繼續連結\n所以呢他連戶籍都掛在戶政事務所勞健保工會信件都用郵政信箱收信所以有的東西他都沒有用自己的名字辦真實的這個帳號都是用室友的就是遇到一次恐怖的情人的下場一輩子活在陰影裡面我今天是要告訴你其實是很困難的而今天我要再舉一個例子是\n統計數據你知道嗎你們的除了這個制度面待會再討論現在加強電子監控再討論以外我們現在要講的是說在社會政策和社會工作學刊2010年的期刊文章裡面親密伴侶的暴力案件保護令成效和相關因素的研究以禁制遷出和遠離令為例\n這個學者呢這個王佩玲就寫了一篇這個她的發表的期刊他們在保護令核發以後三個月內第一次做調查然後在第九個月做第二次追蹤調查然後發現這個表格在這裡你看你發了保護令然後違反禁止令還繼續有肢體暴力的佔了18.9% 19% 將近兩成\n保護令都發了違反禁制令有恐嚇的言語或行為者29.9%佔了三成在三個月內但是到第九個月的時候還更嚴重他就32.9%\n那這個拿到保護令的當事人這個是學者做的當事人有繼續說被騷擾通信有通信的行為的32.7%但是到9個月以後37.5%違反簽出令的然後正式到去報案的是另外一回事可是這個學者做的\n他的第一次調查三個月內違反簽出令31.9%違反遠離令的30.4%然後到九個月以後違反簽出令還繼續增加到34.5%但是違反遠離令的有稍微降了一點點我是要講這個 是要講什麼呢 你看\n這個違反保護令的佔全部案件的有40.940就案件分析他的學者就案件分析違反保護令案件佔全部案件的比例大概40.9也就是說10件的保護令的案件當中有4件會違反保護令中之一款或一款以上的內容再者違反這個保護令合法9個月以後你看還\n不會因為時間拉長而施暴者或是加害者他的這個違反違法的行為會降低或減少換句話說違反保護令的比例是呈現穩定的狀態我在這裡是要告訴你們也要告訴大家\n這一些人真的很難因為一尺保護令然後就嚇阻他因為這一個法律所劃定的民事保護令是一個紅線叫他不能再犯對有社經地位有工作的人或者是經濟穩定的人來或許有點嚇阻作用但對那一些\n或出去了什麼都不在乎的真的是困難啦所以研究者在先前進行這個前導研究對被害人的訪談的時候他們發現一些被害人表示施暴者在核發保護令後表面上肢體暴力沒有了但是會轉而用精神上或其他方面的攻擊或騷擾\n然後一方面讓被害人難以蒐證 一方面也達到他繼續施暴的目的好 看這樣的數字 有沒有覺得觸目驚心但是我要問你 在座的各位各位不管是衛福部 教育部 勞動部警政單位 法務主管 移民單位 文化主管 通訊傳播主管對違反保護令的數據這一些數據這麼多人你們可以做什麼 你們可以做什麼\n現在談到電子監控好了來了大家覺得靠一個電子監控就可以了嗎來電子監控那一年有多少的案件啊如果違反家庭暴力罪去年4155個違反保護令罪去年2405個那要誰監控警政署有人力可以監控嗎社家署有人力可以監控嗎\n來 等一下回答我 那我還要再問我對我現在要再問你 包括法務部我也要問你了喔以前 男人要叫 打過了扁換取很多次的驗傷單 才能換到一張保護令而現在不用了 可是呢如果一個恐怖情人來了 你要羈押他\n又要被打多少次 他違反了多少次還要去報警報了多少遍因為家庭暴力防治法 認為有足夠的事實認為反復實施前開犯罪之餘 而有羈押之必要者得羈押要反復反復\n對不對 構成要件要反覆嘛 有認為有可能反覆之餘嘛有可能會繼續的 所以你要去報案 要求要羈押法官要裁定羈押 要被判很多次 要對方加害者違反保護令很多次\n這樣才會羈押,所以剛才在說羈押的我們羈押的這個層數高達七八成說這句話的,因為要骨子扁那大家講電子監控我倒沒,那這個羈押制度有沒有需要改變啊我還要再打骨子扁,對方要違法,違骨子扁你才可以羈押,可是你來看喔你來看喔\n包括土城的兩個姊妹被殺都是被殺以後才羈押包括台中車站的被殺以後才羈押包括這一個那個事件就我們前一陣子那個不是土城命案也不是風雲就是這個古姓女子的命案第一次\n他的風險評估 也不可能擠壓那擠壓線要畫在哪裡 電子監控要畫在哪裡警政單位有沒有足夠的人力可以監控電子監控 社政單位有沒有足夠的人力和資源可以監控回答大家不要唱高調你不去公共的公安 電子監控 電子監控\n現在來電子監控都一單位人在對 主管在對 怎麼都沒有人可以回答 社政單位先警政署剛才不是有來跑了好來你也上來講法務部也上來講大家有沒有知道電子監控電子監控那條線要劃在哪裡什麼程度然後呢有沒有人力有沒有資源好\n包委員我想謝謝您分析了這麼多也給這麼多data讓我們心情非常沉重覺得這個真的是非常非常的必須要來\n來做好所謂的該做的事情不要講這一些不要講你個人的心情你告訴我我問的問題趕快回答就好了那該做的如果說大家研議到電子的一個監測是必要的你是加爆防治法的主管機關你必須要全面性的對制度面還有防治措施你必須要有全面性的看法\n但是我還不包括你家庭暴力防治法裡面規定每四年對家暴的問題防治的現況成效和需求要進行調查分析然後呢你們公布了2016到2019年我們也是很不滿意那一份報告但是2020到現在2020到現在第六年了你們連2020到2023年的這個\n家暴防治報告都還沒有公告更不要講如果你對家暴的狀況有像剛才那個學者那樣子的研究你們有做過委託研究嗎?有嗎?有嗎?那個市長是...你只要研究就沒有不知道這家害者跟被害者所遇到的處境是何等的辛苦和何等的可怕\n阿你們怎麼去談防治呢?是謝委員 防治不是在自己的範圍裏面說馬上拿出一套版權沒有那麼簡單啦市民國家報告我們目前都整理好那2020到2023年到現在才整理好\n那應該會很快就公佈 今年2025年第二個在整個家暴的工作上面他的確是網絡工作絕對不是靠單一部會能夠完成至於將來如果要實施電子監控我想也不是全面應該做危險分級以及這個分流管理那我想這個部分我們會再跟網絡大家一起來討論來朝這個方向來 如果要電子監控你分級\n去做監控沒關係 但是我想妳有辦法做嗎 妳有人力可以做嗎蛤 這個就需要討論對啊 那來警政單位 如果再交給警察機關有辦法嗎這個要看到時候有多少對象要列進去多少對象是你們可負擔的一萬個 五千個所以現在是要依據你們的量能來決定要可負擔 然後才再決定分級怎麼劃嗎\n這個就本末倒置囉\n我現在要問的是說到底你的依據加害者的風險程度然後要分級那如果分級出來可能劃進來依照每年的違反家庭暴力罪或者是違反保護令罪的或者是他根本也沒有犯到罪但是他的風險很高的一開始風險就很高都要劃入的話那人很多來 司法單位\n跟委員報告你覺得這樣子的制度的設計對啊那有可能最有可能的方法是什麼對有關那個電子監控的部分將來如果要實施當然就涉及到人力設備以及這個相關的量能經費等等問題那當然這個就有賴那個衛福部再去召集相關的會議來做再做演商那我們都遵守就進行了編制你們都有辦法嗎\n法務部 警政單位 社政單位我們現行的編制針對那個科控的部分主要是針對那個防逃的部分那當然沒有包括這個部分對啊 當然這也不是防逃了它可能是縝密的隨時要看在那裡啊或者是你必須用大數據和程式程式設計然後只要踩到什麼線它就立即馬上響了喔這個搞不好是科技部的單位可以做得到吧 科技部\n沒有人來 科技部沒有人來這樣子喔那如果人力上規劃會是哪一個單位 哪個部門我們看衛福部他們將來的那個討論就算有的人力都沒有了警政的人力也在缺少法務部更不可能這要 需不需要修法法務部需不需要修法\n因為這個針對被害人保護的這個科控是屬於這個民事保護令的範圍那目前的限制是沒有的所以他必須要透過法律的修訂才能對阿修法要看日費時阿好 保證這樣你聽到嗎不是在為大家公送來電子監控電子監控一句話很簡單的但是呢 現在要落實要做要怎麼做\n再來我要說的是難道就只有電子監控一條途徑嗎沒有其他我們行政、社政、警政部門可以做的更多的嗎所以我剛剛講那個是說啊保定是政府連調查近年來的違反的樣態比例有哪一些有沒有跨部會如何動用資源協助被害人然後再加以輔導等等如果\n如果加害人千萬不要害人的公司你要怎麼因應然後如果有小孩的話那要怎麼因應所以在這種狀況裡面都不是剛剛講電子監控而已因為\n道高於尺 魔高於杖 你想不到的又很多但是受害者他的社會經驗不一定足夠可以因應而你的社政單位 你的主管機關你對於這樣的社會教育 你做了哪一些剛才我說的自立救濟的這一個人那是聰明的 因為他都自立救濟讓自己從加害者的生活圈裡面徹底失蹤\n可是一般人都很難而且想不到欸更何況說一拿到你馬上放到網路上給大家宣告其實這是一刀兩刃非常危險的動作當然我們不能指責他我認為是因為我們社政單位我們的警政單位我們的政府都沒有教導被害人要怎麼因應啊\n我們到底有沒有教育 教育所有的這個社會的人說這個保護令 這個民事保護令是圖是要讓遵守的人遵守的啦那個不愛命的 亂來的 根本就不好的啦他沒有辦法物理上阻隔加害者對你的這個靠近那個嚇阻作用而已\n可是當嚇阻不行的時候 我們當然要加強到另外一個層次那還要修法 那還牽扯到人力那在修法跟人力到位以前又有多少人是暴露在風險之下會不會馬上就又有傷害事件 暴力事件又來了所以現在緊急要做的是 你要趕緊再教育社會大眾\n對不對 不是只有那些人說拿到了 就是護身符啊拿到保護令 如果弄得不好的話有可能的確是催命符啊因為董事長你要申請積壓 他可能就要跟你損害加害者 你說申請保護令 拿到了 他豁出去了所以當拿到保護令的時候是最危險的時候這個時候 我們應該要教育社會大眾應該要怎麼防範啊\n對不對 啊我們都沒有啊 我覺得都沒有啊保護令就是一萬兩的 這樣事情就大了啦所以這個要討論的問題很大 但我剛剛講的羈押拜託不要再申請保護令 一樣 要求破骨的蓋甚至冒著被殺的風險 才可以被要求羈押加害者\n羈押制度也是要稍微談一下好謝謝委員的指教我們一定遵照這樣的一個建議來努力謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.370 --> 00:09.996\n好謝謝主席順便請我們邱部長有請邱部長委員好委員好\n\n00:14.418 --> 00:39.848\n部長好今天大家都十分的關心這個議題我想這個議題很難用幾分鐘就可以談得清楚了那我現在開始講就是說其實很多在這個相關單位的比如說像婦幼這個保護專主擔任過檢察官的這個第一線的工作者他們也曾經指出家庭暴力防治法的保護措施聽好喔因為我要跟大家講我們要跟大家教育\n\n00:42.669 --> 01:03.582\n這個保護鏈保護措施只能處理輕微的家庭暴力事件對嚴重的家庭暴力事件只能暫時治標但不治本我們都知道這個重大家庭暴力的加害人有很多的這個自身的困境其實是沒有辦法靠一紙保護鏈你就讓他可以改過的\n\n01:05.743 --> 01:32.318\n所以不管是精神上的環境條件上的不論是酗酒的經濟不穩定的暴力習性的其實都很難在短時間內改過改掉他這個習慣靠著家庭暴力的習性來對其他的這個身邊的人所以被害人絕對不能很輕易的就以為這一個保護令其實是萬靈丹這個是基本教育但是\n\n01:33.018 --> 01:37.261\n我覺得從這麼多的社會案件裡面我們包括立委在這裡諮詢裡面大家都一再強調說保護令應該是一個問名單其實這是很困難的所以特別是申請了保護令以後呢加害人對被害人會更怨遊所以在民事保護令拿到的時候或者是即將要失效的時候\n\n01:57.674 --> 02:06.941\n加害人反而更容易再犯家庭暴力行為所以呢我們其實在面對這個家暴的行為的時候除了勇敢的報警除了勇敢的申請保護令其實我們現在要問責於這個部長\n\n02:16.548 --> 02:32.896\n你覺得這些受害者要怎麼樣拿到保護令以後要用什麼手段要開始做什麼防範的工作然後可以讓自己免於再次的受暴你們有任何的教育給這一些受害者嗎報委員可不可以容許請市長簡單報告一下好來跟委員報告我們第一線提供的就是跟被害人討論安全計畫\n\n02:46.175 --> 03:12.267\n你們確定都有提供嗎那安全保護計畫會包括說告訴他們說不要把保護令馬上就曝光去激怒他嗎會提醒我是很懷疑啦我是要告訴你我要舉一個恐怖情人一個臉書上的一篇的恐怖情人的他的如何自保自保我看了也覺得很困難\n\n03:14.417 --> 03:43.796\n多年前遇過恐怖情人然後他們在一起但是呢他發現說這個恐怖情人某一天會很忙所以他知道他那一天就有空間可以逃脫他已經受控制了那他怎麼逃脫呢他要不動聲色的布局先到公司跟大家講說他要離哪一天要離職到時候你們必須要配合我然後呢偷偷的請朋友幫他協助申請新的手機門號然後他也知道他的自己的家人要搬家了\n\n03:44.296 --> 04:03.246\n都確定新的住所他都不用原來的手機了所以到加害人要很忙的那一天來的時候呢然後呢他加害人把他鎖在房間裡面不讓他行動自由嘛所以他就從床底下拿出他新辦的手機門號打電話給房東房東就帶著鎖匠幫他開門讓他走了開著貨車幫他搬家\n\n04:08.849 --> 04:30.323\n然後他就馬上把原本的手機關機註銷社群全部都刪除徹底從這個恐怖的情人加害者的生活裡面消失後來這個家人加害者就去問同事然後就問房東然後找他的家人結果同事房東都開始罵這一個被害者說他怎麼偷跑了他們合力演了一齣戲\n\n04:31.684 --> 04:54.596\n然後他就成功了從這一個加害者的生活裡面消失了然後後來他又他在臉書上發文但他都已經不是原來的帳號了他在社群全部開新帳號然後都申請新的過去的手機的通訊錄全部刪光因為只要有通訊錄就會有自動跑出社群軟體的帳號還會繼續連結\n\n04:57.717 --> 05:24.454\n所以呢他連戶籍都掛在戶政事務所勞健保工會信件都用郵政信箱收信所以有的東西他都沒有用自己的名字辦真實的這個帳號都是用室友的就是遇到一次恐怖的情人的下場一輩子活在陰影裡面我今天是要告訴你其實是很困難的而今天我要再舉一個例子是\n\n05:26.918 --> 05:49.158\n統計數據你知道嗎你們的除了這個制度面待會再討論現在加強電子監控再討論以外我們現在要講的是說在社會政策和社會工作學刊2010年的期刊文章裡面親密伴侶的暴力案件保護令成效和相關因素的研究以禁制遷出和遠離令為例\n\n05:52.340 --> 06:14.477\n這個學者呢這個王佩玲就寫了一篇這個她的發表的期刊他們在保護令核發以後三個月內第一次做調查然後在第九個月做第二次追蹤調查然後發現這個表格在這裡你看你發了保護令然後違反禁止令還繼續有肢體暴力的佔了18.9%19%將近兩成\n\n06:17.779 --> 06:30.878\n保護令都發了違反禁制令有恐嚇的言語或行為者29.9%佔了三成在三個月內但是到第九個月的時候還更嚴重他就32.9%\n\n06:34.182 --> 06:55.668\n那這個拿到保護令的當事人這個是學者做的當事人有繼續說被騷擾通信有通信的行為的32.7%但是到9個月以後37.5%違反簽出令的然後正式到去報案的是另外一回事可是這個學者做的\n\n06:56.368 --> 07:04.975\n他的第一次調查三個月內違反簽出令31.9%違反遠離令的30.4%然後到九個月以後違反簽出令還繼續增加到34.5%但是違反遠離令的有稍微降了一點點我是要講這個是要講什麼呢你看\n\n07:20.303 --> 07:47.744\n這個違反保護令的佔全部案件的有40.940就案件分析他的學者就案件分析違反保護令案件佔全部案件的比例大概40.9也就是說10件的保護令的案件當中有4件會違反保護令中之一款或一款以上的內容再者違反這個保護令合法9個月以後你看還\n\n07:49.045 --> 08:04.050\n不會因為時間拉長而施暴者或是加害者他的這個違反違法的行為會降低或減少換句話說違反保護令的比例是呈現穩定的狀態我在這裡是要告訴你們也要告訴大家\n\n08:09.788 --> 08:29.360\n這一些人真的很難因為一尺保護令然後就嚇阻他因為這一個法律所劃定的民事保護令是一個紅線叫他不能再犯對有社經地位有工作的人或者是經濟穩定的人來或許有點嚇阻作用但對那一些\n\n08:30.240 --> 08:53.891\n或出去了什麼都不在乎的真的是困難啦所以研究者在先前進行這個前導研究對被害人的訪談的時候他們發現一些被害人表示施暴者在核發保護令後表面上肢體暴力沒有了但是會轉而用精神上或其他方面的攻擊或騷擾\n\n08:55.111 --> 09:16.366\n然後一方面讓被害人難以蒐證一方面也達到他繼續施暴的目的好看這樣的數字有沒有覺得觸目驚心但是我要問你在座的各位各位不管是衛福部教育部勞動部警政單位法務主管移民單位文化主管通訊傳播主管對違反保護令的數據這一些數據這麼多人你們可以做什麼你們可以做什麼\n\n09:24.712 --> 09:52.350\n現在談到電子監控好了來了大家覺得靠一個電子監控就可以了嗎來電子監控那一年有多少的案件啊如果違反家庭暴力罪去年4155個違反保護令罪去年2405個那要誰監控警政署有人力可以監控嗎社家署有人力可以監控嗎\n\n09:54.163 --> 09:59.266\n來等一下回答我那我還要再問我對我現在要再問你包括法務部我也要問你了喔以前男人要叫打過了扁換取很多次的驗傷單才能換到一張保護令而現在不用了可是呢如果一個恐怖情人來了你要羈押他\n\n10:16.519 --> 10:37.972\n又要被打多少次他違反了多少次還要去報警報了多少遍因為家庭暴力防治法認為有足夠的事實認為反復實施前開犯罪之餘而有羈押之必要者得羈押要反復反復\n\n10:39.858 --> 10:51.662\n對不對構成要件要反覆嘛有認為有可能反覆之餘嘛有可能會繼續的所以你要去報案要求要羈押法官要裁定羈押要被判很多次要對方加害者違反保護令很多次\n\n11:00.916 --> 11:05.358\n這樣才會羈押,所以剛才在說羈押的我們羈押的這個層數高達七八成說這句話的,因為要骨子扁那大家講電子監控我倒沒,那這個羈押制度有沒有需要改變啊我還要再打骨子扁,對方要違法,違骨子扁你才可以羈押,可是你來看喔你來看喔\n\n11:29.465 --> 11:51.683\n包括土城的兩個姊妹被殺都是被殺以後才羈押包括台中車站的被殺以後才羈押包括這一個那個事件就我們前一陣子那個不是土城命案也不是風雲就是這個古姓女子的命案第一次\n\n11:54.704 --> 12:00.429\n他的風險評估也不可能擠壓那擠壓線要畫在哪裡電子監控要畫在哪裡警政單位有沒有足夠的人力可以監控電子監控社政單位有沒有足夠的人力和資源可以監控回答大家不要唱高調你不去公共的公安電子監控電子監控\n\n12:20.482 --> 12:29.585\n現在來電子監控都一單位人在對主管在對怎麼都沒有人可以回答社政單位先警政署剛才不是有來跑了好來你也上來講法務部也上來講大家有沒有知道電子監控電子監控那條線要劃在哪裡什麼程度然後呢有沒有人力有沒有資源好\n\n12:51.271 --> 13:01.815\n包委員我想謝謝您分析了這麼多也給這麼多data讓我們心情非常沉重覺得這個真的是非常非常的必須要來\n\n13:04.114 --> 13:25.396\n來做好所謂的該做的事情不要講這一些不要講你個人的心情你告訴我我問的問題趕快回答就好了那該做的如果說大家研議到電子的一個監測是必要的你是加爆防治法的主管機關你必須要全面性的對制度面還有防治措施你必須要有全面性的看法\n\n13:26.016 --> 13:42.522\n但是我還不包括你家庭暴力防治法裡面規定每四年對家暴的問題防治的現況成效和需求要進行調查分析然後呢你們公布了2016到2019年我們也是很不滿意那一份報告但是2020到現在2020到現在第六年了你們連2020到2023年的這個\n\n13:51.328 --> 14:04.156\n家暴防治報告都還沒有公告更不要講如果你對家暴的狀況有像剛才那個學者那樣子的研究你們有做過委託研究嗎?有嗎?有嗎?那個市長是...你只要研究就沒有不知道這家害者跟被害者所遇到的處境是何等的辛苦和何等的可怕\n\n14:17.813 --> 14:22.639\n阿你們怎麼去談防治呢?是謝委員防治不是在自己的範圍裏面說馬上拿出一套版權沒有那麼簡單啦市民國家報告我們目前都整理好那2020到2023年到現在才整理好\n\n14:34.833 --> 14:57.792\n那應該會很快就公佈今年2025年第二個在整個家暴的工作上面他的確是網絡工作絕對不是靠單一部會能夠完成至於將來如果要實施電子監控我想也不是全面應該做危險分級以及這個分流管理那我想這個部分我們會再跟網絡大家一起來討論來朝這個方向來如果要電子監控你分級\n\n15:04.797 --> 15:09.680\n去做監控沒關係但是我想妳有辦法做嗎妳有人力可以做嗎蛤這個就需要討論對啊那來警政單位如果再交給警察機關有辦法嗎這個要看到時候有多少對象要列進去多少對象是你們可負擔的一萬個五千個所以現在是要依據你們的量能來決定要可負擔然後才再決定分級怎麼劃嗎\n\n15:35.432 --> 15:36.159\n這個就本末倒置囉\n\n15:38.868 --> 16:01.485\n我現在要問的是說到底你的依據加害者的風險程度然後要分級那如果分級出來可能劃進來依照每年的違反家庭暴力罪或者是違反保護令罪的或者是他根本也沒有犯到罪但是他的風險很高的一開始風險就很高都要劃入的話那人很多來司法單位\n\n16:11.497 --> 16:38.014\n跟委員報告你覺得這樣子的制度的設計對啊那有可能最有可能的方法是什麼對有關那個電子監控的部分將來如果要實施當然就涉及到人力設備以及這個相關的量能經費等等問題那當然這個就有賴那個衛福部再去召集相關的會議來做再做演商那我們都遵守就進行了編制你們都有辦法嗎\n\n16:39.625 --> 17:06.300\n法務部警政單位社政單位我們現行的編制針對那個科控的部分主要是針對那個防逃的部分那當然沒有包括這個部分對啊當然這也不是防逃了它可能是縝密的隨時要看在那裡啊或者是你必須用大數據和程式程式設計然後只要踩到什麼線它就立即馬上響了喔這個搞不好是科技部的單位可以做得到吧科技部\n\n17:07.503 --> 17:30.877\n沒有人來科技部沒有人來這樣子喔那如果人力上規劃會是哪一個單位哪個部門我們看衛福部他們將來的那個討論就算有的人力都沒有了警政的人力也在缺少法務部更不可能這要需不需要修法法務部需不需要修法\n\n17:31.878 --> 17:42.182\n因為這個針對被害人保護的這個科控是屬於這個民事保護令的範圍那目前的限制是沒有的所以他必須要透過法律的修訂才能對阿修法要看日費時阿好保證這樣你聽到嗎不是在為大家公送來電子監控電子監控一句話很簡單的但是呢現在要落實要做要怎麼做\n\n17:57.802 --> 18:24.380\n再來我要說的是難道就只有電子監控一條途徑嗎沒有其他我們行政、社政、警政部門可以做的更多的嗎所以我剛剛講那個是說啊保定是政府連調查近年來的違反的樣態比例有哪一些有沒有跨部會如何動用資源協助被害人然後再加以輔導等等如果\n\n18:26.917 --> 18:38.423\n如果加害人千萬不要害人的公司你要怎麼因應然後如果有小孩的話那要怎麼因應所以在這種狀況裡面都不是剛剛講電子監控而已因為\n\n18:39.980 --> 18:56.750\n道高於尺魔高於杖你想不到的又很多但是受害者他的社會經驗不一定足夠可以因應而你的社政單位你的主管機關你對於這樣的社會教育你做了哪一些剛才我說的自立救濟的這一個人那是聰明的因為他都自立救濟讓自己從加害者的生活圈裡面徹底失蹤\n\n19:09.431 --> 19:32.568\n可是一般人都很難而且想不到欸更何況說一拿到你馬上放到網路上給大家宣告其實這是一刀兩刃非常危險的動作當然我們不能指責他我認為是因為我們社政單位我們的警政單位我們的政府都沒有教導被害人要怎麼因應啊\n\n19:34.400 --> 19:53.258\n我們到底有沒有教育教育所有的這個社會的人說這個保護令這個民事保護令是圖是要讓遵守的人遵守的啦那個不愛命的亂來的根本就不好的啦他沒有辦法物理上阻隔加害者對你的這個靠近那個嚇阻作用而已\n\n19:58.499 --> 20:22.164\n可是當嚇阻不行的時候我們當然要加強到另外一個層次那還要修法那還牽扯到人力那在修法跟人力到位以前又有多少人是暴露在風險之下會不會馬上就又有傷害事件暴力事件又來了所以現在緊急要做的是你要趕緊再教育社會大眾\n\n20:24.386 --> 20:46.701\n對不對不是只有那些人說拿到了就是護身符啊拿到保護令如果弄得不好的話有可能的確是催命符啊因為董事長你要申請積壓他可能就要跟你損害加害者你說申請保護令拿到了他豁出去了所以當拿到保護令的時候是最危險的時候這個時候我們應該要教育社會大眾應該要怎麼防範啊\n\n20:53.976 --> 21:00.317\n對不對啊我們都沒有啊我覺得都沒有啊保護令就是一萬兩的這樣事情就大了啦所以這個要討論的問題很大但我剛剛講的羈押拜託不要再申請保護令一樣要求破骨的蓋甚至冒著被殺的風險才可以被要求羈押加害者\n\n21:21.123 --> 21:29.378\n羈押制度也是要稍微談一下好謝謝委員的指教我們一定遵照這樣的一個建議來努力謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.37,"end":9.996,"text":"好 謝謝主席 順便請我們邱部長有請邱部長委員好 委員好"},{"start":14.418,"end":39.848,"text":"部長好今天大家都十分的關心這個議題我想這個議題很難用幾分鐘就可以談得清楚了那我現在開始講就是說其實很多在這個相關單位的比如說像婦幼這個保護專主擔任過檢察官的這個第一線的工作者他們也曾經指出家庭暴力防治法的保護措施聽好喔因為我要跟大家講我們要跟大家教育"},{"start":42.669,"end":63.582,"text":"這個保護鏈保護措施只能處理輕微的家庭暴力事件對嚴重的家庭暴力事件只能暫時治標但不治本我們都知道這個重大家庭暴力的加害人有很多的這個自身的困境其實是沒有辦法靠一紙保護鏈你就讓他可以改過的"},{"start":65.743,"end":92.318,"text":"所以不管是精神上的環境條件上的不論是酗酒的經濟不穩定的暴力習性的其實都很難在短時間內改過改掉他這個習慣靠著家庭暴力的習性來對其他的這個身邊的人所以被害人絕對不能很輕易的就以為這一個保護令其實是萬靈丹這個是基本教育但是"},{"start":93.018,"end":97.261,"text":"我覺得從這麼多的社會案件裡面我們包括立委在這裡諮詢裡面大家都一再強調說保護令應該是一個問名單其實這是很困難的所以特別是申請了保護令以後呢加害人對被害人會更怨遊所以在民事保護令拿到的時候或者是即將要失效的時候"},{"start":117.674,"end":126.941,"text":"加害人反而更容易再犯家庭暴力行為所以呢我們其實在面對這個家暴的行為的時候除了勇敢的報警 除了勇敢的申請保護令其實我們現在要問責於這個部長"},{"start":136.548,"end":152.896,"text":"你覺得這些受害者要怎麼樣拿到保護令以後要用什麼手段要開始做什麼防範的工作然後可以讓自己免於再次的受暴你們有任何的教育給這一些受害者嗎報委員可不可以容許請市長簡單報告一下好來跟委員報告我們第一線提供的就是跟被害人討論安全計畫"},{"start":166.175,"end":192.267,"text":"你們確定都有提供嗎那安全保護計畫會包括說告訴他們說不要把保護令馬上就曝光去激怒他嗎會提醒我是很懷疑啦我是要告訴你我要舉一個恐怖情人一個臉書上的一篇的恐怖情人的他的如何自保自保我看了也覺得很困難"},{"start":194.417,"end":223.796,"text":"多年前遇過恐怖情人然後他們在一起但是呢他發現說這個恐怖情人某一天會很忙所以他知道他那一天就有空間可以逃脫他已經受控制了那他怎麼逃脫呢他要不動聲色的布局先到公司跟大家講說他要離哪一天要離職到時候你們必須要配合我然後呢偷偷的請朋友幫他協助申請新的手機門號然後他也知道他的自己的家人要搬家了"},{"start":224.296,"end":243.246,"text":"都確定新的住所 他都不用原來的手機了所以到加害人要很忙的那一天來的時候呢然後呢 他加害人把他鎖在房間裡面不讓他行動自由嘛所以他就從床底下拿出他新辦的手機門號打電話給房東 房東就帶著鎖匠幫他開門讓他走了 開著貨車幫他搬家"},{"start":248.849,"end":270.323,"text":"然後他就馬上把原本的手機關機註銷社群全部都刪除徹底從這個恐怖的情人加害者的生活裡面消失後來這個家人加害者就去問同事然後就問房東然後找他的家人結果同事房東都開始罵這一個被害者說他怎麼偷跑了他們合力演了一齣戲"},{"start":271.684,"end":294.596,"text":"然後他就成功了從這一個加害者的生活裡面消失了然後後來他又 他在臉書上發文但他都已經不是原來的帳號了他在社群全部開新帳號然後都申請新的過去的手機的通訊錄全部刪光因為只要有通訊錄就會有自動跑出社群軟體的帳號還會繼續連結"},{"start":297.717,"end":324.454,"text":"所以呢他連戶籍都掛在戶政事務所勞健保工會信件都用郵政信箱收信所以有的東西他都沒有用自己的名字辦真實的這個帳號都是用室友的就是遇到一次恐怖的情人的下場一輩子活在陰影裡面我今天是要告訴你其實是很困難的而今天我要再舉一個例子是"},{"start":326.918,"end":349.158,"text":"統計數據你知道嗎你們的除了這個制度面待會再討論現在加強電子監控再討論以外我們現在要講的是說在社會政策和社會工作學刊2010年的期刊文章裡面親密伴侶的暴力案件保護令成效和相關因素的研究以禁制遷出和遠離令為例"},{"start":352.34,"end":374.477,"text":"這個學者呢這個王佩玲就寫了一篇這個她的發表的期刊他們在保護令核發以後三個月內第一次做調查然後在第九個月做第二次追蹤調查然後發現這個表格在這裡你看你發了保護令然後違反禁止令還繼續有肢體暴力的佔了18.9% 19% 將近兩成"},{"start":377.779,"end":390.878,"text":"保護令都發了違反禁制令有恐嚇的言語或行為者29.9%佔了三成在三個月內但是到第九個月的時候還更嚴重他就32.9%"},{"start":394.182,"end":415.668,"text":"那這個拿到保護令的當事人這個是學者做的當事人有繼續說被騷擾通信有通信的行為的32.7%但是到9個月以後37.5%違反簽出令的然後正式到去報案的是另外一回事可是這個學者做的"},{"start":416.368,"end":424.975,"text":"他的第一次調查三個月內違反簽出令31.9%違反遠離令的30.4%然後到九個月以後違反簽出令還繼續增加到34.5%但是違反遠離令的有稍微降了一點點我是要講這個 是要講什麼呢 你看"},{"start":440.303,"end":467.744,"text":"這個違反保護令的佔全部案件的有40.940就案件分析他的學者就案件分析違反保護令案件佔全部案件的比例大概40.9也就是說10件的保護令的案件當中有4件會違反保護令中之一款或一款以上的內容再者違反這個保護令合法9個月以後你看還"},{"start":469.045,"end":484.05,"text":"不會因為時間拉長而施暴者或是加害者他的這個違反違法的行為會降低或減少換句話說違反保護令的比例是呈現穩定的狀態我在這裡是要告訴你們也要告訴大家"},{"start":489.788,"end":509.36,"text":"這一些人真的很難因為一尺保護令然後就嚇阻他因為這一個法律所劃定的民事保護令是一個紅線叫他不能再犯對有社經地位有工作的人或者是經濟穩定的人來或許有點嚇阻作用但對那一些"},{"start":510.24,"end":533.891,"text":"或出去了什麼都不在乎的真的是困難啦所以研究者在先前進行這個前導研究對被害人的訪談的時候他們發現一些被害人表示施暴者在核發保護令後表面上肢體暴力沒有了但是會轉而用精神上或其他方面的攻擊或騷擾"},{"start":535.111,"end":556.366,"text":"然後一方面讓被害人難以蒐證 一方面也達到他繼續施暴的目的好 看這樣的數字 有沒有覺得觸目驚心但是我要問你 在座的各位各位不管是衛福部 教育部 勞動部警政單位 法務主管 移民單位 文化主管 通訊傳播主管對違反保護令的數據這一些數據這麼多人你們可以做什麼 你們可以做什麼"},{"start":564.712,"end":592.35,"text":"現在談到電子監控好了來了大家覺得靠一個電子監控就可以了嗎來電子監控那一年有多少的案件啊如果違反家庭暴力罪去年4155個違反保護令罪去年2405個那要誰監控警政署有人力可以監控嗎社家署有人力可以監控嗎"},{"start":594.163,"end":599.266,"text":"來 等一下回答我 那我還要再問我對我現在要再問你 包括法務部我也要問你了喔以前 男人要叫 打過了扁換取很多次的驗傷單 才能換到一張保護令而現在不用了 可是呢如果一個恐怖情人來了 你要羈押他"},{"start":616.519,"end":637.972,"text":"又要被打多少次 他違反了多少次還要去報警報了多少遍因為家庭暴力防治法 認為有足夠的事實認為反復實施前開犯罪之餘 而有羈押之必要者得羈押要反復反復"},{"start":639.858,"end":651.662,"text":"對不對 構成要件要反覆嘛 有認為有可能反覆之餘嘛有可能會繼續的 所以你要去報案 要求要羈押法官要裁定羈押 要被判很多次 要對方加害者違反保護令很多次"},{"start":660.916,"end":665.358,"text":"這樣才會羈押,所以剛才在說羈押的我們羈押的這個層數高達七八成說這句話的,因為要骨子扁那大家講電子監控我倒沒,那這個羈押制度有沒有需要改變啊我還要再打骨子扁,對方要違法,違骨子扁你才可以羈押,可是你來看喔你來看喔"},{"start":689.465,"end":711.683,"text":"包括土城的兩個姊妹被殺都是被殺以後才羈押包括台中車站的被殺以後才羈押包括這一個那個事件就我們前一陣子那個不是土城命案也不是風雲就是這個古姓女子的命案第一次"},{"start":714.704,"end":720.429,"text":"他的風險評估 也不可能擠壓那擠壓線要畫在哪裡 電子監控要畫在哪裡警政單位有沒有足夠的人力可以監控電子監控 社政單位有沒有足夠的人力和資源可以監控回答大家不要唱高調你不去公共的公安 電子監控 電子監控"},{"start":740.482,"end":749.585,"text":"現在來電子監控都一單位人在對 主管在對 怎麼都沒有人可以回答 社政單位先警政署剛才不是有來跑了好來你也上來講法務部也上來講大家有沒有知道電子監控電子監控那條線要劃在哪裡什麼程度然後呢有沒有人力有沒有資源好"},{"start":771.271,"end":781.815,"text":"包委員我想謝謝您分析了這麼多也給這麼多data讓我們心情非常沉重覺得這個真的是非常非常的必須要來"},{"start":784.114,"end":805.396,"text":"來做好所謂的該做的事情不要講這一些不要講你個人的心情你告訴我我問的問題趕快回答就好了那該做的如果說大家研議到電子的一個監測是必要的你是加爆防治法的主管機關你必須要全面性的對制度面還有防治措施你必須要有全面性的看法"},{"start":806.016,"end":822.522,"text":"但是我還不包括你家庭暴力防治法裡面規定每四年對家暴的問題防治的現況成效和需求要進行調查分析然後呢你們公布了2016到2019年我們也是很不滿意那一份報告但是2020到現在2020到現在第六年了你們連2020到2023年的這個"},{"start":831.328,"end":844.156,"text":"家暴防治報告都還沒有公告更不要講如果你對家暴的狀況有像剛才那個學者那樣子的研究你們有做過委託研究嗎?有嗎?有嗎?那個市長是...你只要研究就沒有不知道這家害者跟被害者所遇到的處境是何等的辛苦和何等的可怕"},{"start":857.813,"end":862.639,"text":"阿你們怎麼去談防治呢?是謝委員 防治不是在自己的範圍裏面說馬上拿出一套版權沒有那麼簡單啦市民國家報告我們目前都整理好那2020到2023年到現在才整理好"},{"start":874.833,"end":897.792,"text":"那應該會很快就公佈 今年2025年第二個在整個家暴的工作上面他的確是網絡工作絕對不是靠單一部會能夠完成至於將來如果要實施電子監控我想也不是全面應該做危險分級以及這個分流管理那我想這個部分我們會再跟網絡大家一起來討論來朝這個方向來 如果要電子監控你分級"},{"start":904.797,"end":909.68,"text":"去做監控沒關係 但是我想妳有辦法做嗎 妳有人力可以做嗎蛤 這個就需要討論對啊 那來警政單位 如果再交給警察機關有辦法嗎這個要看到時候有多少對象要列進去多少對象是你們可負擔的一萬個 五千個所以現在是要依據你們的量能來決定要可負擔 然後才再決定分級怎麼劃嗎"},{"start":935.432,"end":936.159,"text":"這個就本末倒置囉"},{"start":938.868,"end":961.485,"text":"我現在要問的是說到底你的依據加害者的風險程度然後要分級那如果分級出來可能劃進來依照每年的違反家庭暴力罪或者是違反保護令罪的或者是他根本也沒有犯到罪但是他的風險很高的一開始風險就很高都要劃入的話那人很多來 司法單位"},{"start":971.497,"end":998.014,"text":"跟委員報告你覺得這樣子的制度的設計對啊那有可能最有可能的方法是什麼對有關那個電子監控的部分將來如果要實施當然就涉及到人力設備以及這個相關的量能經費等等問題那當然這個就有賴那個衛福部再去召集相關的會議來做再做演商那我們都遵守就進行了編制你們都有辦法嗎"},{"start":999.625,"end":1026.3,"text":"法務部 警政單位 社政單位我們現行的編制針對那個科控的部分主要是針對那個防逃的部分那當然沒有包括這個部分對啊 當然這也不是防逃了它可能是縝密的隨時要看在那裡啊或者是你必須用大數據和程式程式設計然後只要踩到什麼線它就立即馬上響了喔這個搞不好是科技部的單位可以做得到吧 科技部"},{"start":1027.503,"end":1050.877,"text":"沒有人來 科技部沒有人來這樣子喔那如果人力上規劃會是哪一個單位 哪個部門我們看衛福部他們將來的那個討論就算有的人力都沒有了警政的人力也在缺少法務部更不可能這要 需不需要修法法務部需不需要修法"},{"start":1051.878,"end":1062.182,"text":"因為這個針對被害人保護的這個科控是屬於這個民事保護令的範圍那目前的限制是沒有的所以他必須要透過法律的修訂才能對阿修法要看日費時阿好 保證這樣你聽到嗎不是在為大家公送來電子監控電子監控一句話很簡單的但是呢 現在要落實要做要怎麼做"},{"start":1077.802,"end":1104.38,"text":"再來我要說的是難道就只有電子監控一條途徑嗎沒有其他我們行政、社政、警政部門可以做的更多的嗎所以我剛剛講那個是說啊保定是政府連調查近年來的違反的樣態比例有哪一些有沒有跨部會如何動用資源協助被害人然後再加以輔導等等如果"},{"start":1106.917,"end":1118.423,"text":"如果加害人千萬不要害人的公司你要怎麼因應然後如果有小孩的話那要怎麼因應所以在這種狀況裡面都不是剛剛講電子監控而已因為"},{"start":1119.98,"end":1136.75,"text":"道高於尺 魔高於杖 你想不到的又很多但是受害者他的社會經驗不一定足夠可以因應而你的社政單位 你的主管機關你對於這樣的社會教育 你做了哪一些剛才我說的自立救濟的這一個人那是聰明的 因為他都自立救濟讓自己從加害者的生活圈裡面徹底失蹤"},{"start":1149.431,"end":1172.568,"text":"可是一般人都很難而且想不到欸更何況說一拿到你馬上放到網路上給大家宣告其實這是一刀兩刃非常危險的動作當然我們不能指責他我認為是因為我們社政單位我們的警政單位我們的政府都沒有教導被害人要怎麼因應啊"},{"start":1174.4,"end":1193.258,"text":"我們到底有沒有教育 教育所有的這個社會的人說這個保護令 這個民事保護令是圖是要讓遵守的人遵守的啦那個不愛命的 亂來的 根本就不好的啦他沒有辦法物理上阻隔加害者對你的這個靠近那個嚇阻作用而已"},{"start":1198.499,"end":1222.164,"text":"可是當嚇阻不行的時候 我們當然要加強到另外一個層次那還要修法 那還牽扯到人力那在修法跟人力到位以前又有多少人是暴露在風險之下會不會馬上就又有傷害事件 暴力事件又來了所以現在緊急要做的是 你要趕緊再教育社會大眾"},{"start":1224.386,"end":1246.701,"text":"對不對 不是只有那些人說拿到了 就是護身符啊拿到保護令 如果弄得不好的話有可能的確是催命符啊因為董事長你要申請積壓 他可能就要跟你損害加害者 你說申請保護令 拿到了 他豁出去了所以當拿到保護令的時候是最危險的時候這個時候 我們應該要教育社會大眾應該要怎麼防範啊"},{"start":1253.976,"end":1260.317,"text":"對不對 啊我們都沒有啊 我覺得都沒有啊保護令就是一萬兩的 這樣事情就大了啦所以這個要討論的問題很大 但我剛剛講的羈押拜託不要再申請保護令 一樣 要求破骨的蓋甚至冒著被殺的風險 才可以被要求羈押加害者"},{"start":1281.123,"end":1289.378,"text":"羈押制度也是要稍微談一下好謝謝委員的指教我們一定遵照這樣的一個建議來努力謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1304,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（13時11分）謝謝主席，請我們邱部長。"],["主席：有請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長好。今天大家都十分關心這個議題，我想這個議題很難用幾分鐘就可以談得清楚。其實很多在相關單位的，比如說婦幼保護專組擔任過檢察官的第一線工作者，他們也曾經指出家庭暴力防治法的保護措施，聽好喔，因為我要跟大家說，我們要教育大家，這個保護令的保護措施只能處理輕微的家庭暴力事件，對嚴重的家庭暴力事件只能暫時治標，但不治本。我們都知道，重大家庭暴力的加害人有很多自身的困境，其實是沒有辦法靠一紙保護令就可以讓他改過的，所以不管是精神上的、環境條件上的，不論是酗酒的、經濟不穩定的、暴力習性的，其實都很難在短時間內改過、改掉他這個習慣，靠著家庭暴力的習性來對其他身邊的人，所以被害人絕對不能很輕易的就以為這個保護令是萬靈丹。這個是基本教育，但是我覺得從這麼多的社會案件裡面，包括立委在這裡質詢，大家都一再強調，保護令應該是一個萬靈丹，其實這是很困難的，特別是聲請保護令以後，加害人對被害人會更怨尤，所以在民事保護令拿到的時候，或者是即將要失效的時候，加害人反而更容易再犯家庭暴力行為，所以我們在面對家暴行為的時候，除了勇敢的報警、勇敢的聲請保護令，其實我們既然要問責於……部長，你們有沒有教過這些受害者要怎麼樣拿到保護令、要用什麼手段、要開始做什麼防範的工作，然後可以讓自己免於再次受暴？你們有任何的教育給這些受害者嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，可否容許司長簡單報告一下？"],["林委員淑芬：好。"],["張司長秀鴛：跟委員報告，我們第一線提供的就是跟被害人討論安全計畫。"],["林委員淑芬：你們確定都有提供嗎？安全保護計畫會包括告訴他們說，不要把保護令馬上曝光去激怒他嗎？"],["張司長秀鴛：會提醒。"],["林委員淑芬：我是很懷疑啦！我是要告訴你，我要舉一個臉書上一篇恐怖情人的例子，他是如何自保，我看了也覺得很困難。多年前遇過恐怖情人，他們在一起，但是他發現這個恐怖情人某一天會很忙，所以他知道他那一天就有空間可以逃脫。他已經受控制了，那他怎麼逃脫呢？他要不動聲色的布局，先到公司跟大家說他哪一天要離職，到時候你們必須要配合我，然後偷偷的請朋友幫他、協助他申請新的手機門號，然後他也知道自己的家人要搬家了，都確定新的住所，他都不用原來的手機了，所以到加害人很忙的那一天的時候，加害人把他鎖在房間裡面，不讓他行動自由，所以他就從床底下拿出他新辦的手機門號打電話給房東，房東就帶著鎖匠幫他開門，讓他走了，開著貨車幫他搬家，然後他就馬上把原本的手機關機、註銷，社群全部都刪除，澈底從這個恐怖的情人、加害者的生活裡面消失。後來這個加害者就去問同事、問房東，然後找他的家人，結果同事、房東都開始罵這個被害者說，他怎麼偷跑了？他們合力演了一齣戲，然後他就成功從這個加害者的生活裡面消失了。","後來他在臉書上發文，但都已經不是原來的帳號了，他在社群全部開新帳號，然後都申請新的，過去手機的通訊錄全部刪光，因為只要有通訊錄就會自動跑出社群軟體的帳號，還會繼續連結，所以他連戶籍都掛在戶政事務所，勞健保、工會，信件都用郵政信箱收信，所有的東西他都沒有用自己的名字辦真實的帳號，都是用室友的，就是遇到一次恐怖情人的下場，一輩子活在陰影裡面。我今天是要告訴你，這其實是很困難的，而今天我要再舉一個例子是統計數據，你知道嗎？除了這個制度面待會再討論，現在加強電子監控再討論以外，我們現在要講的是，在社會政策與社會工作學刊2010年的期刊文章裡面，親密伴侶暴力案件保護令成效與相關因素之研究：以禁制、遷出及遠離令為例。這位學者王珮玲就發表了一篇期刊。","他們在保護令核發以後，三個月內第一次做調查，在第九個月做第二次追蹤調查，然後發現這個……請看這個表格，你看，你發了保護令，違反禁制令還繼續有肢體暴力的占了18.9%、19%，將近二成，保護令都發了，違反禁制令有恐嚇的言語或行為者有29.9%，占了三成，這是在三個月內，但是到第九個月的時候還更嚴重，變成32.9%。這是學者做的調查，拿到保護令的當事人有繼續被騷擾、有通信行為的有32.7%，但是到九個月以後是37.5%；而違反遷出令的，正式去報案的是另外一回事，這個學者做的第一次調查，三個月內違反遷出令的有31.9%，違反遠離令的有30.4%，到九個月以後，違反遷出令的還繼續增加到34.5%，違反遠離令的有稍微降了一點點。我講這個是要講什麼呢？這位學者就案件分析，違反保護令案件占全部案件的比例大概40.9%，也就是說，10件保護令案件當中，有4件會違反保護令中之一款或一款以上的內容。再者，保護令核發九個月以後，你看，不會因為時間拉長，施暴者或是加害者違反、違法的行為會降低或減少，換句話說，違反保護令的比例是呈現穩定的狀態。","我在這裡是要告訴你們，也要告訴大家，這一些人真的很難因為一紙保護令就可以嚇阻他，因為這個法律所劃定的民事保護令只是一個紅線，叫他不能再犯，對有社經地位、有工作的人，或者是經濟穩定的人來說，或許有一點嚇阻作用，但是對那些豁出去了、什麼都不在乎的人來說，真的是困難啦，所以研究者在先前進行前導研究，對被害人訪談的時候發現，一些被害人表示：施暴者在核發保護令後，表面上肢體暴力沒有了，但是會轉而用精神上或其他方面的攻擊或騷擾，一方面讓被害人難以蒐證，一方面也達到他繼續施暴的目的。看這樣的數字，有沒有覺得怵目驚心？但是我要問在座的各位，不管是衛福部、教育部、勞動部、警政單位、法務主管、移民單位、文化主管、通訊傳播主管，對違反保護令的數據有這麼多人，你們可以做什麼？現在談到電子監控，大家覺得靠一個電子監控就可以了嗎？電子監控一年有多少案件？部長，違反家庭暴力罪，去年4,155個；違反保護令罪，去年2,405個，要由誰監控？警政署有人力可以監控嗎？社家署有人力可以監控嗎？等一下回答我。","我還要再問部長，我也要問法務部，以前女人要被打好幾次，用很多張驗傷單才能換到一張保護令，而現在不用了，可是如果一個恐怖情人來了，要羈押他，又要被打多少次？要他違反多少次？還要去報警報多少次？因為家庭暴力防治法認為有事實足認為有反覆實行前開犯罪之虞，而有羈押之必要者，得羈押之。要反覆！反覆！對不對？構成要件要反覆嘛！認為可能有反覆之虞，有可能會繼續的，你去報案，要求要羈押，法官裁定羈押要被打好幾次、要加害者違反保護令很多次才會被羈押，所以剛才在說羈押的成數高達七、八成，說這些都多說的，因為要好幾次！大家講電子監控有辦法嗎？這個羈押制度有沒有需要改變啊？還要再被打好幾次，對方要違法好幾次才能把他羈押，可是你來看喔！包括土城的兩個姐妹被殺，都是被殺以後才羈押；包括發生在臺中車站的，被殺以後才羈押；包括前一陣子谷姓女子的命案，第一次就被殺了，他的風險評估也不可能羈押，如果羈押，線要劃在哪裡？電子監控要畫在哪裡？如果是電子監控，警政單位有沒有足夠的人力可以監控？社政單位有沒有足夠的人力和資源可以監控？回答！不要在這裡唱高調，跟立委講電子監控、電子監控。來，哪一單位？人在哪裡？資源在哪裡？怎麼都沒人可以回答？社政單位先，警政署剛才不是有來？跑了喔？好，法務部也上來講。電子監控那條線要畫在哪裡？什麼程度？有沒有人力？有沒有資源？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想謝謝您分析了這麼多，也給這麼多data，我們心情非常沉重，覺得真的非常非常必須要做好所有該做的事情。"],["林委員淑芬：不要講這一些，不要講你個人的心情，你告訴我，我問的問題趕快回答就好了。"],["邱部長泰源：如果大家研議電子監測是必要的……"],["林委員淑芬：你是家暴防治法的主管機關……"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["林委員淑芬：對制度面還有防治措施，你必須要有全面性的看法。家庭暴力防治法裡面規定每四年對家庭暴力問題、防治現況成效與需求進行調查分析。你們公布了2016到2019年的報告，雖然我們也很不滿意那一份報告，但是2020到現在第六年了，你們連2020到2023年的家暴防治報告都還沒有公告，更不要講你們對家暴的狀況有做像剛才提到的學者那樣子的研究，你們有做過委託研究嗎？有嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：司長……"],["林委員淑芬：你們連研究都沒有，不知道加害者跟被害者所遇到的處境是何等辛苦和何等可怕，你們怎麼去談防治呢？"],["張司長秀鴛：是，謝謝委員。"],["林委員淑芬：防治不是在這裡跟立法院的立委說：馬上提出一套辦法。沒那麼簡單啦！"],["張司長秀鴛：四年國家報告，我們目前都整理好……"],["林委員淑芬：2020到2023年的報告，現在才整理好。"],["張司長秀鴛：應該很快就會公布……"],["林委員淑芬：今年2025年耶！"],["張司長秀鴛：第二個，在整個家暴的工作上面的確是網絡工作，絕對不是靠單一部會能夠完成。至於將來如果實施電子監控，我想也不是全面，應該做危險分級以及分流管理，這個部分我們會再跟網絡的大家一起討論，朝這個方向來……"],["林委員淑芬：我是說，如果要電子監控，分級去做監控沒關係，但是我問你有辦法做嗎？你有人力可以做嗎？"],["張司長秀鴛：所以這個就需要討論。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊，警政單位，如果要交給警察機關，有辦法嗎？"],["廖副署長美鈴：這個要看到時候有多少對象要列進去，我們才來看……"],["林委員淑芬：多少對象是你們可負擔的？1萬個？5,000個？所以現在是要依據你們的量能決定可負擔，再決定分級怎麼劃嗎？這個就本末倒置囉！","我現在要問的是，依據加害者的風險程度分級，如果分級依照每年違反家庭暴力罪或者違反保護令罪的，或者他根本也沒有犯罪，但是他屬於一開始風險就很高的，這些都要劃入的話，那人很多喔！來，司法單位。你覺得在制度設計上，最有可能的方法是什麼？"],["張司長曉雯：有關電子監控的部分，將來如果要實施，當然就涉及到人力、設備以及相關的量能、經費等等問題，這個有賴衛福部再去召集相關會議再研商，我們都尊重。"],["林委員淑芬：就現行的編制，你們都有辦法嗎？法務部、警政單位、社政單位……"],["張司長曉雯：我們現行的編制，科控主要是針對防逃的部分，當然沒有包括這個部分。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊，它再也不僅是防逃了，它可能是縝密的，隨時要在那裡看啊！或者是你必須用大數據程式設計，只要踩到什麼線就立即馬上響了喔！這個科技部可以做得到吧？科技部沒有人來。如果人力上規劃會是哪一個單位、哪個部門？"],["張司長曉雯：我們看衛福部將來的討論……"],["林委員淑芬：現有的人力都沒有了，警政的人力也缺少，法務部更不可能。法務部，這需不需要修法？"],["張司長曉雯：因為針對被害人保護的科控是屬於民事保護令的範圍，目前的限制是沒有的，所以必須要透過法律的修訂才能。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊，修法又要曠日廢時啦。部長，這樣你聽懂了嗎？不是立委在這裡講爽的：來，電子監控！電子監控一句話很簡單，但是現在要落實要怎麼做？","再來，我要說的是，難道就只有電子監控一條途徑嗎？沒有其他行政、社政、警政部門可以做得更多的嗎？所以我剛剛講的是，部長，政府連調查近年來違反的樣態比例有哪一些、有沒有跨部會如何動用資源協助被害人，然後再加以輔導等等……如果加害人進入被害人公司，你要怎麼因應？如果有小孩的話，要怎麼因應？所以在這種狀況裡面，都不是只有電子監控而已，因為道高一尺，魔高一丈，你想不到的還有很多，但是受害者的社會經驗不一定足夠可以因應各種情況，而社政單位、主管機關對於這樣的社會教育，你做了哪一些？","剛才我說自力救濟的這個人，他是聰明的，他有辦法自力救濟，讓自己從加害者的生活圈裡面澈底失蹤，可是一般人都很難做到，而且想不到。更何況一拿到保護令，馬上放到網路上跟大家宣告，其實這是一刀兩刃，非常危險的動作。當然我們不能指責他，我認為是因為我們社政單位、警政單位、政府都沒有教導被害人要怎麼因應。我們到底有沒有教育社會大眾，說這個民事保護令是要給遵守的人遵守的啦！對於那些不要命的、亂來的，根本就沒用啦！它沒有辦法物理上阻隔加害者對你靠近，只有嚇阻作用而已，可是當沒辦法嚇阻的時候，我們當然要加強到另外一個層次，那還要修法，還要牽扯到人力，在修法跟人力到位以前，又有多少人是暴露在風險之下？會不會馬上又有傷害事件，暴力事件又來了？","所以現在緊急要做的是，你要趕緊教育社會大眾，對不對？不是只有在那邊說拿到保護令就有護身符，拿到保護令如果弄得不好的話，有可能的確是催命符，因為當事者如果要聲請羈押，他可能就要跟你「輸贏」，加害者如果知道你聲請保護令拿到了，他豁出去了，所以當拿到保護令的時候是最危險的時候。這個時候我們應該要教育社會大眾應該怎麼防範，對不對？但我覺得我們都沒有啊，好像保護令就是萬能的，這樣事情就嚴重了啦！這樣事情就嚴重了啦！所以這要討論的問題很大。","但我剛剛講的羈押，拜託，不要再像早些時候聲請保護令一樣，要被打好幾次，甚至冒著被殺的風險，才可以要求羈押加害者，羈押制度也是要稍微談一下，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的指教，我們一定遵照這樣的建議來努力。"],["主席（劉委員建國）：謝謝。部長應該當過兵了？"],["邱部長泰源：當2年而已。"],["主席：要拿到退伍令的時候，就是八字最輕的時候，這是事實。要拿到退伍令的時候，就是狀況最不好的時候，拿到之後有時候很高興，當天就出事情，隔天也出事情，所以剛剛林委員還有我在講的就是拿到保護令之前，怎麼沒有聽到有任何處理的方式？"],["林委員淑芬：要教育大家啦！"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請洪孟楷委員。洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員，洪孟楷委員不在。","請陳瑩委員來詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-23","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","楊曜","林月琴","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳雪生","黃國昌","黃捷","何欣純","李坤城","賴士葆","林淑芬","陳瑩","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","徐富癸","張雅琳","郭昱晴","鄭天財Sra Kacaw"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-08-06"],"gazette_id":"1147201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長、司法院、法務部、教育部、內政部警政署就「因應近期多起社會重\n大事件，檢討家庭暴力防治法民事保護令制度及執行缺失，強化保護令之作為」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢；二、(一)繼續審查行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案、 ( 二) 繼續審查\n委員林月琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、 (三) 繼續審查委員何欣純等 16人擬具「兒\n童托育服務法草案」案、 ( 四 ) 繼續審查委員王育敏等 24 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、\n( 五)繼續審查委員邱若華等 16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、( 六)繼續審查委員黃捷等21\n人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、( 七)繼續審查委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草\n案」案、( 八)繼續審查委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、( 九)繼續審查委員\n陳培瑜等19 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十)繼續審查委員郭昱晴等 21人擬具「兒童托\n育服務法草案」案、( 十一 ) 繼續審查委員陳素月等 16 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、 ( 十\n二)繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十三)繼續審查委\n員王美惠等19 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、( 十四) 繼續審查委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒\n童托育服務法草案」案、( 十五) 繼續審查委員王正旭等 18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、\n( 十六) 繼續審查委員吳沛憶等19 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(十七)繼續審查委員游顥\n等17人擬具「兒童托育多元服務法草案」案、( 十八)繼續審查委員范雲等17 人擬具「兒童托育\n服務法草案」案、(十九)繼續審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(二十)\n繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、( 二十一) 審查委員張雅琳等16人\n擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、 ( 二十二 ) 審查委員吳琪銘等 19 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草\n案」案、( 二十三) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等26 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」\n案、( 二十四)審查委員陳菁徽等17 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、(二十五) 審查委員蘇巧\n慧等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、( 二十六)審查委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「兒童托育服\n務法草案」案、( 二十七)審查委員劉建國等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、( 二十八) 審\n查委員黃健豪等 17 人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案、 ( 二十九 ) 審查委員洪孟楷等 21 人擬具\n「兒童托育服務法草案」案【逐條討論】","agenda_id":"1147201_00001"}}}