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692.538, \"end\": 692.558, \"score\": 0.528}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,292 --> 00:00:00,312\n被質詢謝謝\n\n2\n00:00:09,768 --> 00:00:34,757\n我还是针对台师大的女足的部分就教育部长因为这件事情目前处理告一段落但是我想有关后续的检讨的机制还有如何避免它发生我想我们还是必须要做一个厘清那我想这件事情在去年11月就已经爆发但是教育部跟国科会的积极处理的态度我们先来看一下那部长你知不知道国科会什么时候成立专案小组的\n\n3\n00:00:36,428 --> 00:00:56,862\n跟委員報告事實上這件事情發生在11月28日被揭露我知道你知道國科會什麼時候成立專案小組國科剛剛已經有報過過我現在只要指名這個時候就看出因為這裡面牽涉到兩個我們中央部會一個是國科會一個是教育部我要跟委員報告國科會在11月隔天11月29號就馬上發文要台灣事態兩個禮拜內就要把這一個做掉\n\n4\n00:01:02,426 --> 00:01:21,821\n但是我懂啊所以说呢你看韩寝世大他们也算是快成立专案小组是12月23号没错吧国科会动作不算是太慢可惜的是我们这半年以后呢国科会跟台世大都在公文往返那我想教育部在半年里面做什么国科会做了教育部做什么\n\n5\n00:01:23,490 --> 00:01:44,869\n跟委員報告我們事實上在12月16號就發文給教育這個針對台師大因為國會科會所責成的台師大的調查我們就因為教育這個師大把這個調查給教育部我們也責成他有許多的這個疑點還要再進一步查清在12月16號我們就已經好我們來看一下1月2號的時候台師大將倫理調查報告送給教育部\n\n6\n00:01:49,733 --> 00:02:07,628\n并且确定它是有违反人体的研究的法规那去年的时候呢国科会马上就可以专案小组并开了三次的会议我刚刚看到了副组委报告教育部是到今年5月19号才成立的这个专案会议没错吧跟委员报告晚了七个月\n\n7\n00:02:08,228 --> 00:02:12,809\n沒有我們在3月6號事實上就召開第一次的好那顯然為什麼到我們現在才鬧得沸沸揚揚就是這兩個部會所做的這些狀況沒有辦法滿足這些受害學生的需求否則這件事情如果早有處理就不會鬧到全國皆知那我現在想了解因為你前天的新聞就告訴我們說教育部目前有到三個學校\n\n8\n00:02:32,335 --> 00:02:51,107\n台大台市大北市大三个学校里面因为我们有IRB可以做这样一个申请的审核的部分有全国有13个嘛对不对你们为什么前天才去看这三个地方不是应该更早吗这事情发生已经这么久了七个月时间为什么前天才去看这三个学校\n\n9\n00:02:51,980 --> 00:03:12,569\n跟委員報告我們事實上因為有很多在調查委員在大學也認教也是本身是大學教授出身所以所有的這個程序裡面我們都是依法而且快速的處理我知道啦部長我現在是說我們要來檢討但是我是說你前天才去然後新聞發布我們總覺得這個動作是有點太慢了\n\n10\n00:03:13,389 --> 00:03:22,078\n針對學校的許多的東西對好那我就來看嘛因為根據我們的法規上面教育部是對於這個輪審會是絕對具有監督跟輔導的一個角色因為這是根據我們的一個要點你必須要對於這個部分我想請過去這麼多年來教育部有對於創校這個13個輪審會裡面有任何的抽查或\n\n11\n00:03:34,991 --> 00:03:36,552\n跟柯委員報告在從109年到113年當中我們都有近期對或者是有幾次\n\n12\n00:03:53,622 --> 00:04:20,743\n所以這13個學校做了這個抽查有幾次基本上每一間學校都有進行抽查每一年都進入抽查我們每一年我們109年開始對於這些13所學校不定期抽查但是我們都有抽查過一輪這些相關的資料我們可以會後提供給你們好我現在想要了解我要想了解你們到底是說因為你現在都有法規在那顯然是這個法規上面跟執行層面上出現了一個很大的落差不好意思我是不是可以請我們的陳學志主委\n\n13\n00:04:21,724 --> 00:04:23,926\n虽然我们过去在这个幽默心理学上\n\n14\n00:04:53,745 --> 00:05:16,340\n我們在審查的時候看到他提出來資料裡面並沒有一天抽三次血只有一天抽一次血然後那個實際的時候我們去問的時候很多學生也是說都是只有一天抽一次血只有他沒有辦法抽足的時候才會再補抽所以這個案子事先也都有送給那個校外的醫生來做審查\n\n15\n00:05:17,020 --> 00:05:35,243\n所以说你们经过校外医生你们认为这个案子就是他们所呈报上去不是一天三次是一天一次而且医生认为这个是符合我们一般的健康一般的规准所以你们才会允许所以当他这个学生爆料说一天三次的时候而且不止一个学生的时候你们轮审会的态度会是什么\n\n16\n00:05:36,223 --> 00:05:51,090\n報告委員我們有去追查而且我會去把原來資料調出來而且我們發現在精準運動科學的時候並沒有發現因為會議事人員抽血因為主持人都有把護士的證照抽血時間跟匯款的紀錄\n\n17\n00:05:52,170 --> 00:06:09,507\n我觉得这个咨询上是有一些的落差特别你刚刚说你只看到一次这个学生确实三次这就是我等一下要特别问到部长的就是我们现在虽然有建立这样一个机制但是呢不管是我们的IRB或是REC完全是在落实跟申请等等之间到底是出现在什么样的问题所以说呢\n\n18\n00:06:10,228 --> 00:06:29,586\n那个轮审会一次然后也觉得符合这个医生所说的可是到最后结果却是老师执行计划的申请人竟然是做的跟他们送这个计划的时候是有一些执行上的落差我这样说没有错吧那这部分未来教育部该怎么办来陈老师你可以回座这个那教育部你该怎么办对这样的问题\n\n19\n00:06:30,486 --> 00:06:52,171\n謝謝委員關心確實我們在過去在這個RARB裡面從大學端裡面他比較少建立有內控內積的這樣一個機制然後另外包含這個學生在接受或者這個受試者在接受一些相關的學術研究的時候我們也比較少有建立一個這樣一個譬如說\n\n20\n00:06:54,491 --> 00:07:21,368\n这个部长这是我们今天执行这个最主要的目的因为我们都有这个法规我们都有这个单位在这个地方可是要是不是爆发出台师大这件事情的话没人想到包括我们自己的学生在做这样子有关于论文的时候他都要经过这样的申请那基本上面又没有牵涉到这个血液的这个部分所以大家就是用这个方法来了稍微看看就让他通过然后发现执行层面是有一些问题我现在接下来请体育署长也要一起上来因为呢\n\n21\n00:07:22,088 --> 00:07:43,224\n基本上面除了国客会这个报告之外呢这个我们的周教授跟我们这个陈忠庆教授呢他有申请的运发基金里面的150万也是来做这个裁写这样的部分申请到你们运发基金因为这跟国客会是不一样申请的单位不一样所以当然审查单位不一样那我想请问一下你认为郑署长你也在大学教书\n\n22\n00:07:43,644 --> 00:08:02,206\n你认为这件案子里面有没有违反这个受试者愿意抽血因为他也有采血啊而且第一时间我还是要强调镇署长你还帮他们洗地你告诉我说抽血不等于采血但是呢而且你们告诉我们说这个部分IRB这个部分呢对你们这个领域当中是未来的趋势结果呢你看看\n\n23\n00:08:02,907 --> 00:08:05,829\n在這個報告當中明明這個所謂的抽血這樣的一件事情還有送請IRB的這樣審核機制也有啊他也有條列在那邊他要申請經費耶那怎麼可能沒有呢體育署在面對這件狀況怎麼說\n\n24\n00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:33,746\n報告委員我想這個是周台英老師跟陳宗敬老師他本身就違反了我們一開始的運科資源計畫的精神我們的計畫是用現有的研究成果來應用在選手的\n\n25\n00:08:35,106 --> 00:08:43,130\n你這邊有提過運動訓練服務不是人體研究對不對所以他不能夠拿來做研究所以他本身違反了這個規定所以這又是一個問題嘛你們讓他有150萬的錢用你們的運發基金然後呢他的執行你們現在都告訴我說他違反那這中間落差到怎麼樣我們所有的東西都配備我們所有的審查機制都已經擺在那個地方可是你發現所有執行的東西跟當初跟你們申請跟你們發的錢完全不一樣那未來該怎麼辦嘛\n\n26\n00:09:02,100 --> 00:09:16,860\n這個部分我們還是會強調因為包委員說實在大部分的我們這個計畫裡面的所有的運科資源參與的老師都知道其實真的不能拿去做發表它也不是研究所以真的是陳仲慶本身個人的一個違規行為\n\n27\n00:09:18,112 --> 00:09:39,086\n所以未来的部分我们现在最大包括我们这个部分都是事情发生完之后我们再回去追溯我们显然没有一个特别的机制可以来做这样的一个预防其实我们现在请国家运科中心来研理一个我们的运科检测的流程以及计划审查流程我们会来请一跟卫福部一起来讨论\n\n28\n00:09:41,588 --> 00:10:08,305\n對所以你要全面清查陳宗慶老師周太英老師所申請的所有這個計畫的補助的公編然後呢最重要我在乎的就是有沒有取得受試者的同意書而且經過他們的簽署而不是被脅迫我覺得這個部分才是才是很大的一個重點啊所以我真的覺得體育署應該演繹怎麼樣強制送審這個IRB你們目前為止還是不是一個必要的條件但是未來不要告訴我只是一個趨勢這都是一樣因為畢竟用到你們的錢\n\n29\n00:10:09,325 --> 00:10:18,649\n這還是非常重要的這件事情引發出太多太多執行層面的問題最後問一個那個體育部你剛好在這個地方你有被徵詢運動部的部長的這個部分嗎沒有\n\n30\n00:10:22,830 --> 00:10:42,209\n目前没有是吧?没有。目前没有。好,那目前筹备的状况如何?给我一分钟就好。目前筹备状况如何?报告委员,目前我们将在原体育大楼设置运动部门,部分的部门像在全民署以及产业科技师以及资讯处会到,我们就将离站附近的灌达。\n\n31\n00:10:42,349 --> 00:10:49,555\n沒有啦我只是說你現在人力是從130個我們現在人是有總共427個對但是據說你們現在招聘並不如預期喔從130變成429而且你分兩年合計而且目前來說你們的規模已經提升到210\n\n32\n00:10:58,441 --> 00:11:25,292\n但是呢据说你们的招聘目前为止不如这个预期这个人力的承揽各方面的部分我还是强调而且最终变成一个运动部里面有非常多非常多像是我们以前跟特别提到的这个执行的层面像运动产业条例非常多的职棒的运动员也非常希望在提升为运动部完之后能够对于他们所关切的包括企业联下包括这个台皮篮球队没有替有过半没有替选手来劳保这个问题\n\n33\n00:11:25,652 --> 00:11:32,558\n我希望在成立这样的部会当中你可以继续执行而且确实的执行这才是成立运动部最大的一个目标\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n292\t312\t被質詢 謝謝\n9768\t34757\t我还是针对台师大的女足的部分就教育部长因为这件事情目前处理告一段落但是我想有关后续的检讨的机制还有如何避免它发生我想我们还是必须要做一个厘清那我想这件事情在去年11月就已经爆发但是教育部跟国科会的积极处理的态度我们先来看一下那部长你知不知道国科会什么时候成立专案小组的\n36428\t56862\t跟委員報告 事實上這件事情發生在11月28日被揭露我知道 你知道國科會什麼時候成立專案小組國科剛剛已經有報過過我現在只要指名 這個時候就看出因為這裡面牽涉到兩個我們中央部會一個是國科會 一個是教育部我要跟委員報告 國科會在11月 隔天11月29號就馬上發文要台灣事態兩個禮拜內就要把這一個做掉\n62426\t81821\t但是我懂啊所以说呢你看韩寝世大他们也算是快成立专案小组是12月23号没错吧国科会动作不算是太慢可惜的是我们这半年以后呢国科会跟台世大都在公文往返那我想教育部在半年里面做什么国科会做了教育部做什么\n83490\t104869\t跟委員報告我們事實上在12月16號就發文給教育這個針對台師大因為國會科會所責成的台師大的調查我們就因為教育這個師大把這個調查給教育部我們也責成他有許多的這個疑點還要再進一步查清在12月16號我們就已經好我們來看一下1月2號的時候台師大將倫理調查報告送給教育部\n109733\t127628\t并且确定它是有违反人体的研究的法规那去年的时候呢国科会马上就可以专案小组并开了三次的会议我刚刚看到了副组委报告教育部是到今年5月19号才成立的这个专案会议没错吧跟委员报告晚了七个月\n128228\t132809\t沒有 我們在3月6號事實上就召開第一次的好 那顯然為什麼到我們現在才鬧得沸沸揚揚就是這兩個部會所做的這些狀況沒有辦法滿足這些受害學生的需求否則這件事情如果早有處理就不會鬧到全國皆知那我現在想了解因為你前天的新聞就告訴我們說教育部目前有到三個學校\n152335\t171107\t台大台市大北市大三个学校里面因为我们有IRB可以做这样一个申请的审核的部分有全国有13个嘛对不对你们为什么前天才去看这三个地方不是应该更早吗这事情发生已经这么久了七个月时间为什么前天才去看这三个学校\n171980\t192569\t跟委員報告我們事實上因為有很多在調查委員在大學也認教也是本身是大學教授出身所以所有的這個程序裡面我們都是依法而且快速的處理我知道啦部長我現在是說我們要來檢討但是我是說你前天才去然後新聞發布我們總覺得這個動作是有點太慢了\n193389\t202078\t針對學校的許多的東西對好那我就來看嘛因為根據我們的法規上面教育部是對於這個輪審會是絕對具有監督跟輔導的一個角色因為這是根據我們的一個要點你必須要對於這個部分我想請過去這麼多年來教育部有對於創校這個13個輪審會裡面有任何的抽查或\n214991\t216552\t跟柯委員報告在從109年到113年當中我們都有近期對 或者是有幾次\n233622\t260743\t所以這13個學校做了這個抽查有幾次基本上每一間學校都有進行抽查每一年都進入抽查我們每一年我們109年開始對於這些13所學校不定期抽查但是我們都有抽查過一輪這些相關的資料我們可以會後提供給你們好 我現在想要了解我要想了解你們到底是說因為你現在都有法規在那顯然是這個法規上面跟執行層面上出現了一個很大的落差不好意思我是不是可以請我們的陳學志主委\n261724\t263926\t虽然我们过去在这个幽默心理学上\n293745\t316340\t我們在審查的時候看到他提出來資料裡面並沒有一天抽三次血只有一天抽一次血然後那個實際的時候我們去問的時候很多學生也是說都是只有一天抽一次血只有他沒有辦法抽足的時候才會再補抽所以這個案子事先也都有送給那個校外的醫生來做審查\n317020\t335243\t所以说你们经过校外医生你们认为这个案子就是他们所呈报上去不是一天三次是一天一次而且医生认为这个是符合我们一般的健康一般的规准所以你们才会允许所以当他这个学生爆料说一天三次的时候而且不止一个学生的时候你们轮审会的态度会是什么\n336223\t351090\t報告委員我們有去追查而且我會去把原來資料調出來而且我們發現在精準運動科學的時候並沒有發現因為會議事人員抽血因為主持人都有把護士的證照抽血時間跟匯款的紀錄\n352170\t369507\t我觉得这个咨询上是有一些的落差特别你刚刚说你只看到一次这个学生确实三次这就是我等一下要特别问到部长的就是我们现在虽然有建立这样一个机制但是呢不管是我们的IRB或是REC完全是在落实跟申请等等之间到底是出现在什么样的问题所以说呢\n370228\t389586\t那个轮审会一次然后也觉得符合这个医生所说的可是到最后结果却是老师执行计划的申请人竟然是做的跟他们送这个计划的时候是有一些执行上的落差我这样说没有错吧那这部分未来教育部该怎么办来陈老师你可以回座这个那教育部你该怎么办对这样的问题\n390486\t412171\t謝謝委員關心 確實我們在過去在這個RARB裡面從大學端裡面他比較少建立有內控內積的這樣一個機制然後另外包含這個學生在接受或者這個受試者在接受一些相關的學術研究的時候我們也比較少有建立一個這樣一個譬如說\n414491\t441368\t这个部长这是我们今天执行这个最主要的目的因为我们都有这个法规我们都有这个单位在这个地方可是要是不是爆发出台师大这件事情的话没人想到包括我们自己的学生在做这样子有关于论文的时候他都要经过这样的申请那基本上面又没有牵涉到这个血液的这个部分所以大家就是用这个方法来了稍微看看就让他通过然后发现执行层面是有一些问题我现在接下来请体育署长也要一起上来因为呢\n442088\t463224\t基本上面除了国客会这个报告之外呢这个我们的周教授跟我们这个陈忠庆教授呢他有申请的运发基金里面的150万也是来做这个裁写这样的部分申请到你们运发基金因为这跟国客会是不一样申请的单位不一样所以当然审查单位不一样那我想请问一下你认为郑署长你也在大学教书\n463644\t482206\t你认为这件案子里面有没有违反这个受试者愿意抽血因为他也有采血啊而且第一时间我还是要强调镇署长你还帮他们洗地你告诉我说抽血不等于采血但是呢而且你们告诉我们说这个部分IRB这个部分呢对你们这个领域当中是未来的趋势结果呢你看看\n482907\t485829\t在這個報告當中明明這個所謂的抽血這樣的一件事情還有送請IRB的這樣審核機制也有啊他也有條列在那邊他要申請經費耶那怎麼可能沒有呢體育署在面對這件狀況怎麼說\n498880\t513746\t報告委員我想這個是周台英老師跟陳宗敬老師他本身就違反了我們一開始的運科資源計畫的精神我們的計畫是用現有的研究成果來應用在選手的\n515106\t523130\t你這邊有提過運動訓練服務不是人體研究對不對所以他不能夠拿來做研究所以他本身違反了這個規定所以這又是一個問題嘛你們讓他有150萬的錢用你們的運發基金然後呢他的執行你們現在都告訴我說他違反那這中間落差到怎麼樣我們所有的東西都配備我們所有的審查機制都已經擺在那個地方可是你發現所有執行的東西跟當初跟你們申請跟你們發的錢完全不一樣那未來該怎麼辦嘛\n542100\t556860\t這個部分我們還是會強調因為包委員說實在大部分的我們這個計畫裡面的所有的運科資源參與的老師都知道其實真的不能拿去做發表它也不是研究所以真的是陳仲慶本身個人的一個違規行為\n558112\t579086\t所以未来的部分我们现在最大包括我们这个部分都是事情发生完之后我们再回去追溯我们显然没有一个特别的机制可以来做这样的一个预防其实我们现在请国家运科中心来研理一个我们的运科检测的流程以及计划审查流程我们会来请一跟卫福部一起来讨论\n581588\t608305\t對 所以你要全面清查陳宗慶老師 周太英老師所申請的所有這個計畫的補助的公編然後呢 最重要我在乎的就是有沒有取得受試者的同意書而且經過他們的簽署而不是被脅迫我覺得這個部分才是才是很大的一個重點啊所以我真的覺得體育署應該演繹怎麼樣強制送審這個IRB你們目前為止還是不是一個必要的條件但是未來不要告訴我只是一個趨勢這都是一樣因為畢竟用到你們的錢\n609325\t618649\t這還是非常重要的這件事情引發出太多太多執行層面的問題最後問一個那個體育部你剛好在這個地方你有被徵詢運動部的部長的這個部分嗎沒有\n622830\t642209\t目前没有是吧?没有。目前没有。好,那目前筹备的状况如何?给我一分钟就好。目前筹备状况如何?报告委员,目前我们将在原体育大楼设置运动部门,部分的部门像在全民署以及产业科技师以及资讯处会到,我们就将离站附近的灌达。\n642349\t649555\t沒有啦我只是說你現在人力是從130個我們現在人是有總共427個對但是據說你們現在招聘並不如預期喔從130變成429而且你分兩年合計而且目前來說你們的規模已經提升到210\n658441\t685292\t但是呢据说你们的招聘目前为止不如这个预期这个人力的承揽各方面的部分我还是强调而且最终变成一个运动部里面有非常多非常多像是我们以前跟特别提到的这个执行的层面像运动产业条例非常多的职棒的运动员也非常希望在提升为运动部完之后能够对于他们所关切的包括企业联下包括这个台皮篮球队没有替有过半没有替选手来劳保这个问题\n685652\t692558\t我希望在成立这样的部会当中你可以继续执行而且确实的执行这才是成立运动部最大的一个目标\n","txt":"被質詢 謝謝\n我还是针对台师大的女足的部分就教育部长因为这件事情目前处理告一段落但是我想有关后续的检讨的机制还有如何避免它发生我想我们还是必须要做一个厘清那我想这件事情在去年11月就已经爆发但是教育部跟国科会的积极处理的态度我们先来看一下那部长你知不知道国科会什么时候成立专案小组的\n跟委員報告 事實上這件事情發生在11月28日被揭露我知道 你知道國科會什麼時候成立專案小組國科剛剛已經有報過過我現在只要指名 這個時候就看出因為這裡面牽涉到兩個我們中央部會一個是國科會 一個是教育部我要跟委員報告 國科會在11月 隔天11月29號就馬上發文要台灣事態兩個禮拜內就要把這一個做掉\n但是我懂啊所以说呢你看韩寝世大他们也算是快成立专案小组是12月23号没错吧国科会动作不算是太慢可惜的是我们这半年以后呢国科会跟台世大都在公文往返那我想教育部在半年里面做什么国科会做了教育部做什么\n跟委員報告我們事實上在12月16號就發文給教育這個針對台師大因為國會科會所責成的台師大的調查我們就因為教育這個師大把這個調查給教育部我們也責成他有許多的這個疑點還要再進一步查清在12月16號我們就已經好我們來看一下1月2號的時候台師大將倫理調查報告送給教育部\n并且确定它是有违反人体的研究的法规那去年的时候呢国科会马上就可以专案小组并开了三次的会议我刚刚看到了副组委报告教育部是到今年5月19号才成立的这个专案会议没错吧跟委员报告晚了七个月\n沒有 我們在3月6號事實上就召開第一次的好 那顯然為什麼到我們現在才鬧得沸沸揚揚就是這兩個部會所做的這些狀況沒有辦法滿足這些受害學生的需求否則這件事情如果早有處理就不會鬧到全國皆知那我現在想了解因為你前天的新聞就告訴我們說教育部目前有到三個學校\n台大台市大北市大三个学校里面因为我们有IRB可以做这样一个申请的审核的部分有全国有13个嘛对不对你们为什么前天才去看这三个地方不是应该更早吗这事情发生已经这么久了七个月时间为什么前天才去看这三个学校\n跟委員報告我們事實上因為有很多在調查委員在大學也認教也是本身是大學教授出身所以所有的這個程序裡面我們都是依法而且快速的處理我知道啦部長我現在是說我們要來檢討但是我是說你前天才去然後新聞發布我們總覺得這個動作是有點太慢了\n針對學校的許多的東西對好那我就來看嘛因為根據我們的法規上面教育部是對於這個輪審會是絕對具有監督跟輔導的一個角色因為這是根據我們的一個要點你必須要對於這個部分我想請過去這麼多年來教育部有對於創校這個13個輪審會裡面有任何的抽查或\n跟柯委員報告在從109年到113年當中我們都有近期對 或者是有幾次\n所以這13個學校做了這個抽查有幾次基本上每一間學校都有進行抽查每一年都進入抽查我們每一年我們109年開始對於這些13所學校不定期抽查但是我們都有抽查過一輪這些相關的資料我們可以會後提供給你們好 我現在想要了解我要想了解你們到底是說因為你現在都有法規在那顯然是這個法規上面跟執行層面上出現了一個很大的落差不好意思我是不是可以請我們的陳學志主委\n虽然我们过去在这个幽默心理学上\n我們在審查的時候看到他提出來資料裡面並沒有一天抽三次血只有一天抽一次血然後那個實際的時候我們去問的時候很多學生也是說都是只有一天抽一次血只有他沒有辦法抽足的時候才會再補抽所以這個案子事先也都有送給那個校外的醫生來做審查\n所以说你们经过校外医生你们认为这个案子就是他们所呈报上去不是一天三次是一天一次而且医生认为这个是符合我们一般的健康一般的规准所以你们才会允许所以当他这个学生爆料说一天三次的时候而且不止一个学生的时候你们轮审会的态度会是什么\n報告委員我們有去追查而且我會去把原來資料調出來而且我們發現在精準運動科學的時候並沒有發現因為會議事人員抽血因為主持人都有把護士的證照抽血時間跟匯款的紀錄\n我觉得这个咨询上是有一些的落差特别你刚刚说你只看到一次这个学生确实三次这就是我等一下要特别问到部长的就是我们现在虽然有建立这样一个机制但是呢不管是我们的IRB或是REC完全是在落实跟申请等等之间到底是出现在什么样的问题所以说呢\n那个轮审会一次然后也觉得符合这个医生所说的可是到最后结果却是老师执行计划的申请人竟然是做的跟他们送这个计划的时候是有一些执行上的落差我这样说没有错吧那这部分未来教育部该怎么办来陈老师你可以回座这个那教育部你该怎么办对这样的问题\n謝謝委員關心 確實我們在過去在這個RARB裡面從大學端裡面他比較少建立有內控內積的這樣一個機制然後另外包含這個學生在接受或者這個受試者在接受一些相關的學術研究的時候我們也比較少有建立一個這樣一個譬如說\n这个部长这是我们今天执行这个最主要的目的因为我们都有这个法规我们都有这个单位在这个地方可是要是不是爆发出台师大这件事情的话没人想到包括我们自己的学生在做这样子有关于论文的时候他都要经过这样的申请那基本上面又没有牵涉到这个血液的这个部分所以大家就是用这个方法来了稍微看看就让他通过然后发现执行层面是有一些问题我现在接下来请体育署长也要一起上来因为呢\n基本上面除了国客会这个报告之外呢这个我们的周教授跟我们这个陈忠庆教授呢他有申请的运发基金里面的150万也是来做这个裁写这样的部分申请到你们运发基金因为这跟国客会是不一样申请的单位不一样所以当然审查单位不一样那我想请问一下你认为郑署长你也在大学教书\n你认为这件案子里面有没有违反这个受试者愿意抽血因为他也有采血啊而且第一时间我还是要强调镇署长你还帮他们洗地你告诉我说抽血不等于采血但是呢而且你们告诉我们说这个部分IRB这个部分呢对你们这个领域当中是未来的趋势结果呢你看看\n在這個報告當中明明這個所謂的抽血這樣的一件事情還有送請IRB的這樣審核機制也有啊他也有條列在那邊他要申請經費耶那怎麼可能沒有呢體育署在面對這件狀況怎麼說\n報告委員我想這個是周台英老師跟陳宗敬老師他本身就違反了我們一開始的運科資源計畫的精神我們的計畫是用現有的研究成果來應用在選手的\n你這邊有提過運動訓練服務不是人體研究對不對所以他不能夠拿來做研究所以他本身違反了這個規定所以這又是一個問題嘛你們讓他有150萬的錢用你們的運發基金然後呢他的執行你們現在都告訴我說他違反那這中間落差到怎麼樣我們所有的東西都配備我們所有的審查機制都已經擺在那個地方可是你發現所有執行的東西跟當初跟你們申請跟你們發的錢完全不一樣那未來該怎麼辦嘛\n這個部分我們還是會強調因為包委員說實在大部分的我們這個計畫裡面的所有的運科資源參與的老師都知道其實真的不能拿去做發表它也不是研究所以真的是陳仲慶本身個人的一個違規行為\n所以未来的部分我们现在最大包括我们这个部分都是事情发生完之后我们再回去追溯我们显然没有一个特别的机制可以来做这样的一个预防其实我们现在请国家运科中心来研理一个我们的运科检测的流程以及计划审查流程我们会来请一跟卫福部一起来讨论\n對 所以你要全面清查陳宗慶老師 周太英老師所申請的所有這個計畫的補助的公編然後呢 最重要我在乎的就是有沒有取得受試者的同意書而且經過他們的簽署而不是被脅迫我覺得這個部分才是才是很大的一個重點啊所以我真的覺得體育署應該演繹怎麼樣強制送審這個IRB你們目前為止還是不是一個必要的條件但是未來不要告訴我只是一個趨勢這都是一樣因為畢竟用到你們的錢\n這還是非常重要的這件事情引發出太多太多執行層面的問題最後問一個那個體育部你剛好在這個地方你有被徵詢運動部的部長的這個部分嗎沒有\n目前没有是吧?没有。目前没有。好,那目前筹备的状况如何?给我一分钟就好。目前筹备状况如何?报告委员,目前我们将在原体育大楼设置运动部门,部分的部门像在全民署以及产业科技师以及资讯处会到,我们就将离站附近的灌达。\n沒有啦我只是說你現在人力是從130個我們現在人是有總共427個對但是據說你們現在招聘並不如預期喔從130變成429而且你分兩年合計而且目前來說你們的規模已經提升到210\n但是呢据说你们的招聘目前为止不如这个预期这个人力的承揽各方面的部分我还是强调而且最终变成一个运动部里面有非常多非常多像是我们以前跟特别提到的这个执行的层面像运动产业条例非常多的职棒的运动员也非常希望在提升为运动部完之后能够对于他们所关切的包括企业联下包括这个台皮篮球队没有替有过半没有替选手来劳保这个问题\n我希望在成立这样的部会当中你可以继续执行而且确实的执行这才是成立运动部最大的一个目标\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.292 --> 00:00.312\n被質詢謝謝\n\n00:09.768 --> 00:34.757\n我还是针对台师大的女足的部分就教育部长因为这件事情目前处理告一段落但是我想有关后续的检讨的机制还有如何避免它发生我想我们还是必须要做一个厘清那我想这件事情在去年11月就已经爆发但是教育部跟国科会的积极处理的态度我们先来看一下那部长你知不知道国科会什么时候成立专案小组的\n\n00:36.428 --> 00:56.862\n跟委員報告事實上這件事情發生在11月28日被揭露我知道你知道國科會什麼時候成立專案小組國科剛剛已經有報過過我現在只要指名這個時候就看出因為這裡面牽涉到兩個我們中央部會一個是國科會一個是教育部我要跟委員報告國科會在11月隔天11月29號就馬上發文要台灣事態兩個禮拜內就要把這一個做掉\n\n01:02.426 --> 01:21.821\n但是我懂啊所以说呢你看韩寝世大他们也算是快成立专案小组是12月23号没错吧国科会动作不算是太慢可惜的是我们这半年以后呢国科会跟台世大都在公文往返那我想教育部在半年里面做什么国科会做了教育部做什么\n\n01:23.490 --> 01:44.869\n跟委員報告我們事實上在12月16號就發文給教育這個針對台師大因為國會科會所責成的台師大的調查我們就因為教育這個師大把這個調查給教育部我們也責成他有許多的這個疑點還要再進一步查清在12月16號我們就已經好我們來看一下1月2號的時候台師大將倫理調查報告送給教育部\n\n01:49.733 --> 02:07.628\n并且确定它是有违反人体的研究的法规那去年的时候呢国科会马上就可以专案小组并开了三次的会议我刚刚看到了副组委报告教育部是到今年5月19号才成立的这个专案会议没错吧跟委员报告晚了七个月\n\n02:08.228 --> 02:12.809\n沒有我們在3月6號事實上就召開第一次的好那顯然為什麼到我們現在才鬧得沸沸揚揚就是這兩個部會所做的這些狀況沒有辦法滿足這些受害學生的需求否則這件事情如果早有處理就不會鬧到全國皆知那我現在想了解因為你前天的新聞就告訴我們說教育部目前有到三個學校\n\n02:32.335 --> 02:51.107\n台大台市大北市大三个学校里面因为我们有IRB可以做这样一个申请的审核的部分有全国有13个嘛对不对你们为什么前天才去看这三个地方不是应该更早吗这事情发生已经这么久了七个月时间为什么前天才去看这三个学校\n\n02:51.980 --> 03:12.569\n跟委員報告我們事實上因為有很多在調查委員在大學也認教也是本身是大學教授出身所以所有的這個程序裡面我們都是依法而且快速的處理我知道啦部長我現在是說我們要來檢討但是我是說你前天才去然後新聞發布我們總覺得這個動作是有點太慢了\n\n03:13.389 --> 03:22.078\n針對學校的許多的東西對好那我就來看嘛因為根據我們的法規上面教育部是對於這個輪審會是絕對具有監督跟輔導的一個角色因為這是根據我們的一個要點你必須要對於這個部分我想請過去這麼多年來教育部有對於創校這個13個輪審會裡面有任何的抽查或\n\n03:34.991 --> 03:36.552\n跟柯委員報告在從109年到113年當中我們都有近期對或者是有幾次\n\n03:53.622 --> 04:20.743\n所以這13個學校做了這個抽查有幾次基本上每一間學校都有進行抽查每一年都進入抽查我們每一年我們109年開始對於這些13所學校不定期抽查但是我們都有抽查過一輪這些相關的資料我們可以會後提供給你們好我現在想要了解我要想了解你們到底是說因為你現在都有法規在那顯然是這個法規上面跟執行層面上出現了一個很大的落差不好意思我是不是可以請我們的陳學志主委\n\n04:21.724 --> 04:23.926\n虽然我们过去在这个幽默心理学上\n\n04:53.745 --> 05:16.340\n我們在審查的時候看到他提出來資料裡面並沒有一天抽三次血只有一天抽一次血然後那個實際的時候我們去問的時候很多學生也是說都是只有一天抽一次血只有他沒有辦法抽足的時候才會再補抽所以這個案子事先也都有送給那個校外的醫生來做審查\n\n05:17.020 --> 05:35.243\n所以说你们经过校外医生你们认为这个案子就是他们所呈报上去不是一天三次是一天一次而且医生认为这个是符合我们一般的健康一般的规准所以你们才会允许所以当他这个学生爆料说一天三次的时候而且不止一个学生的时候你们轮审会的态度会是什么\n\n05:36.223 --> 05:51.090\n報告委員我們有去追查而且我會去把原來資料調出來而且我們發現在精準運動科學的時候並沒有發現因為會議事人員抽血因為主持人都有把護士的證照抽血時間跟匯款的紀錄\n\n05:52.170 --> 06:09.507\n我觉得这个咨询上是有一些的落差特别你刚刚说你只看到一次这个学生确实三次这就是我等一下要特别问到部长的就是我们现在虽然有建立这样一个机制但是呢不管是我们的IRB或是REC完全是在落实跟申请等等之间到底是出现在什么样的问题所以说呢\n\n06:10.228 --> 06:29.586\n那个轮审会一次然后也觉得符合这个医生所说的可是到最后结果却是老师执行计划的申请人竟然是做的跟他们送这个计划的时候是有一些执行上的落差我这样说没有错吧那这部分未来教育部该怎么办来陈老师你可以回座这个那教育部你该怎么办对这样的问题\n\n06:30.486 --> 06:52.171\n謝謝委員關心確實我們在過去在這個RARB裡面從大學端裡面他比較少建立有內控內積的這樣一個機制然後另外包含這個學生在接受或者這個受試者在接受一些相關的學術研究的時候我們也比較少有建立一個這樣一個譬如說\n\n06:54.491 --> 07:21.368\n这个部长这是我们今天执行这个最主要的目的因为我们都有这个法规我们都有这个单位在这个地方可是要是不是爆发出台师大这件事情的话没人想到包括我们自己的学生在做这样子有关于论文的时候他都要经过这样的申请那基本上面又没有牵涉到这个血液的这个部分所以大家就是用这个方法来了稍微看看就让他通过然后发现执行层面是有一些问题我现在接下来请体育署长也要一起上来因为呢\n\n07:22.088 --> 07:43.224\n基本上面除了国客会这个报告之外呢这个我们的周教授跟我们这个陈忠庆教授呢他有申请的运发基金里面的150万也是来做这个裁写这样的部分申请到你们运发基金因为这跟国客会是不一样申请的单位不一样所以当然审查单位不一样那我想请问一下你认为郑署长你也在大学教书\n\n07:43.644 --> 08:02.206\n你认为这件案子里面有没有违反这个受试者愿意抽血因为他也有采血啊而且第一时间我还是要强调镇署长你还帮他们洗地你告诉我说抽血不等于采血但是呢而且你们告诉我们说这个部分IRB这个部分呢对你们这个领域当中是未来的趋势结果呢你看看\n\n08:02.907 --> 08:05.829\n在這個報告當中明明這個所謂的抽血這樣的一件事情還有送請IRB的這樣審核機制也有啊他也有條列在那邊他要申請經費耶那怎麼可能沒有呢體育署在面對這件狀況怎麼說\n\n08:18.880 --> 08:33.746\n報告委員我想這個是周台英老師跟陳宗敬老師他本身就違反了我們一開始的運科資源計畫的精神我們的計畫是用現有的研究成果來應用在選手的\n\n08:35.106 --> 08:43.130\n你這邊有提過運動訓練服務不是人體研究對不對所以他不能夠拿來做研究所以他本身違反了這個規定所以這又是一個問題嘛你們讓他有150萬的錢用你們的運發基金然後呢他的執行你們現在都告訴我說他違反那這中間落差到怎麼樣我們所有的東西都配備我們所有的審查機制都已經擺在那個地方可是你發現所有執行的東西跟當初跟你們申請跟你們發的錢完全不一樣那未來該怎麼辦嘛\n\n09:02.100 --> 09:16.860\n這個部分我們還是會強調因為包委員說實在大部分的我們這個計畫裡面的所有的運科資源參與的老師都知道其實真的不能拿去做發表它也不是研究所以真的是陳仲慶本身個人的一個違規行為\n\n09:18.112 --> 09:39.086\n所以未来的部分我们现在最大包括我们这个部分都是事情发生完之后我们再回去追溯我们显然没有一个特别的机制可以来做这样的一个预防其实我们现在请国家运科中心来研理一个我们的运科检测的流程以及计划审查流程我们会来请一跟卫福部一起来讨论\n\n09:41.588 --> 10:08.305\n對所以你要全面清查陳宗慶老師周太英老師所申請的所有這個計畫的補助的公編然後呢最重要我在乎的就是有沒有取得受試者的同意書而且經過他們的簽署而不是被脅迫我覺得這個部分才是才是很大的一個重點啊所以我真的覺得體育署應該演繹怎麼樣強制送審這個IRB你們目前為止還是不是一個必要的條件但是未來不要告訴我只是一個趨勢這都是一樣因為畢竟用到你們的錢\n\n10:09.325 --> 10:18.649\n這還是非常重要的這件事情引發出太多太多執行層面的問題最後問一個那個體育部你剛好在這個地方你有被徵詢運動部的部長的這個部分嗎沒有\n\n10:22.830 --> 10:42.209\n目前没有是吧?没有。目前没有。好,那目前筹备的状况如何?给我一分钟就好。目前筹备状况如何?报告委员,目前我们将在原体育大楼设置运动部门,部分的部门像在全民署以及产业科技师以及资讯处会到,我们就将离站附近的灌达。\n\n10:42.349 --> 10:49.555\n沒有啦我只是說你現在人力是從130個我們現在人是有總共427個對但是據說你們現在招聘並不如預期喔從130變成429而且你分兩年合計而且目前來說你們的規模已經提升到210\n\n10:58.441 --> 11:25.292\n但是呢据说你们的招聘目前为止不如这个预期这个人力的承揽各方面的部分我还是强调而且最终变成一个运动部里面有非常多非常多像是我们以前跟特别提到的这个执行的层面像运动产业条例非常多的职棒的运动员也非常希望在提升为运动部完之后能够对于他们所关切的包括企业联下包括这个台皮篮球队没有替有过半没有替选手来劳保这个问题\n\n11:25.652 --> 11:32.558\n我希望在成立这样的部会当中你可以继续执行而且确实的执行这才是成立运动部最大的一个目标\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.292,"end":0.312,"text":"被質詢 謝謝"},{"start":9.768,"end":34.757,"text":"我还是针对台师大的女足的部分就教育部长因为这件事情目前处理告一段落但是我想有关后续的检讨的机制还有如何避免它发生我想我们还是必须要做一个厘清那我想这件事情在去年11月就已经爆发但是教育部跟国科会的积极处理的态度我们先来看一下那部长你知不知道国科会什么时候成立专案小组的"},{"start":36.428,"end":56.862,"text":"跟委員報告 事實上這件事情發生在11月28日被揭露我知道 你知道國科會什麼時候成立專案小組國科剛剛已經有報過過我現在只要指名 這個時候就看出因為這裡面牽涉到兩個我們中央部會一個是國科會 一個是教育部我要跟委員報告 國科會在11月 隔天11月29號就馬上發文要台灣事態兩個禮拜內就要把這一個做掉"},{"start":62.426,"end":81.821,"text":"但是我懂啊所以说呢你看韩寝世大他们也算是快成立专案小组是12月23号没错吧国科会动作不算是太慢可惜的是我们这半年以后呢国科会跟台世大都在公文往返那我想教育部在半年里面做什么国科会做了教育部做什么"},{"start":83.49,"end":104.869,"text":"跟委員報告我們事實上在12月16號就發文給教育這個針對台師大因為國會科會所責成的台師大的調查我們就因為教育這個師大把這個調查給教育部我們也責成他有許多的這個疑點還要再進一步查清在12月16號我們就已經好我們來看一下1月2號的時候台師大將倫理調查報告送給教育部"},{"start":109.733,"end":127.628,"text":"并且确定它是有违反人体的研究的法规那去年的时候呢国科会马上就可以专案小组并开了三次的会议我刚刚看到了副组委报告教育部是到今年5月19号才成立的这个专案会议没错吧跟委员报告晚了七个月"},{"start":128.228,"end":132.809,"text":"沒有 我們在3月6號事實上就召開第一次的好 那顯然為什麼到我們現在才鬧得沸沸揚揚就是這兩個部會所做的這些狀況沒有辦法滿足這些受害學生的需求否則這件事情如果早有處理就不會鬧到全國皆知那我現在想了解因為你前天的新聞就告訴我們說教育部目前有到三個學校"},{"start":152.335,"end":171.107,"text":"台大台市大北市大三个学校里面因为我们有IRB可以做这样一个申请的审核的部分有全国有13个嘛对不对你们为什么前天才去看这三个地方不是应该更早吗这事情发生已经这么久了七个月时间为什么前天才去看这三个学校"},{"start":171.98,"end":192.569,"text":"跟委員報告我們事實上因為有很多在調查委員在大學也認教也是本身是大學教授出身所以所有的這個程序裡面我們都是依法而且快速的處理我知道啦部長我現在是說我們要來檢討但是我是說你前天才去然後新聞發布我們總覺得這個動作是有點太慢了"},{"start":193.389,"end":202.078,"text":"針對學校的許多的東西對好那我就來看嘛因為根據我們的法規上面教育部是對於這個輪審會是絕對具有監督跟輔導的一個角色因為這是根據我們的一個要點你必須要對於這個部分我想請過去這麼多年來教育部有對於創校這個13個輪審會裡面有任何的抽查或"},{"start":214.991,"end":216.552,"text":"跟柯委員報告在從109年到113年當中我們都有近期對 或者是有幾次"},{"start":233.622,"end":260.743,"text":"所以這13個學校做了這個抽查有幾次基本上每一間學校都有進行抽查每一年都進入抽查我們每一年我們109年開始對於這些13所學校不定期抽查但是我們都有抽查過一輪這些相關的資料我們可以會後提供給你們好 我現在想要了解我要想了解你們到底是說因為你現在都有法規在那顯然是這個法規上面跟執行層面上出現了一個很大的落差不好意思我是不是可以請我們的陳學志主委"},{"start":261.724,"end":263.926,"text":"虽然我们过去在这个幽默心理学上"},{"start":293.745,"end":316.34,"text":"我們在審查的時候看到他提出來資料裡面並沒有一天抽三次血只有一天抽一次血然後那個實際的時候我們去問的時候很多學生也是說都是只有一天抽一次血只有他沒有辦法抽足的時候才會再補抽所以這個案子事先也都有送給那個校外的醫生來做審查"},{"start":317.02,"end":335.243,"text":"所以说你们经过校外医生你们认为这个案子就是他们所呈报上去不是一天三次是一天一次而且医生认为这个是符合我们一般的健康一般的规准所以你们才会允许所以当他这个学生爆料说一天三次的时候而且不止一个学生的时候你们轮审会的态度会是什么"},{"start":336.223,"end":351.09,"text":"報告委員我們有去追查而且我會去把原來資料調出來而且我們發現在精準運動科學的時候並沒有發現因為會議事人員抽血因為主持人都有把護士的證照抽血時間跟匯款的紀錄"},{"start":352.17,"end":369.507,"text":"我觉得这个咨询上是有一些的落差特别你刚刚说你只看到一次这个学生确实三次这就是我等一下要特别问到部长的就是我们现在虽然有建立这样一个机制但是呢不管是我们的IRB或是REC完全是在落实跟申请等等之间到底是出现在什么样的问题所以说呢"},{"start":370.228,"end":389.586,"text":"那个轮审会一次然后也觉得符合这个医生所说的可是到最后结果却是老师执行计划的申请人竟然是做的跟他们送这个计划的时候是有一些执行上的落差我这样说没有错吧那这部分未来教育部该怎么办来陈老师你可以回座这个那教育部你该怎么办对这样的问题"},{"start":390.486,"end":412.171,"text":"謝謝委員關心 確實我們在過去在這個RARB裡面從大學端裡面他比較少建立有內控內積的這樣一個機制然後另外包含這個學生在接受或者這個受試者在接受一些相關的學術研究的時候我們也比較少有建立一個這樣一個譬如說"},{"start":414.491,"end":441.368,"text":"这个部长这是我们今天执行这个最主要的目的因为我们都有这个法规我们都有这个单位在这个地方可是要是不是爆发出台师大这件事情的话没人想到包括我们自己的学生在做这样子有关于论文的时候他都要经过这样的申请那基本上面又没有牵涉到这个血液的这个部分所以大家就是用这个方法来了稍微看看就让他通过然后发现执行层面是有一些问题我现在接下来请体育署长也要一起上来因为呢"},{"start":442.088,"end":463.224,"text":"基本上面除了国客会这个报告之外呢这个我们的周教授跟我们这个陈忠庆教授呢他有申请的运发基金里面的150万也是来做这个裁写这样的部分申请到你们运发基金因为这跟国客会是不一样申请的单位不一样所以当然审查单位不一样那我想请问一下你认为郑署长你也在大学教书"},{"start":463.644,"end":482.206,"text":"你认为这件案子里面有没有违反这个受试者愿意抽血因为他也有采血啊而且第一时间我还是要强调镇署长你还帮他们洗地你告诉我说抽血不等于采血但是呢而且你们告诉我们说这个部分IRB这个部分呢对你们这个领域当中是未来的趋势结果呢你看看"},{"start":482.907,"end":485.829,"text":"在這個報告當中明明這個所謂的抽血這樣的一件事情還有送請IRB的這樣審核機制也有啊他也有條列在那邊他要申請經費耶那怎麼可能沒有呢體育署在面對這件狀況怎麼說"},{"start":498.88,"end":513.746,"text":"報告委員我想這個是周台英老師跟陳宗敬老師他本身就違反了我們一開始的運科資源計畫的精神我們的計畫是用現有的研究成果來應用在選手的"},{"start":515.106,"end":523.13,"text":"你這邊有提過運動訓練服務不是人體研究對不對所以他不能夠拿來做研究所以他本身違反了這個規定所以這又是一個問題嘛你們讓他有150萬的錢用你們的運發基金然後呢他的執行你們現在都告訴我說他違反那這中間落差到怎麼樣我們所有的東西都配備我們所有的審查機制都已經擺在那個地方可是你發現所有執行的東西跟當初跟你們申請跟你們發的錢完全不一樣那未來該怎麼辦嘛"},{"start":542.1,"end":556.86,"text":"這個部分我們還是會強調因為包委員說實在大部分的我們這個計畫裡面的所有的運科資源參與的老師都知道其實真的不能拿去做發表它也不是研究所以真的是陳仲慶本身個人的一個違規行為"},{"start":558.112,"end":579.086,"text":"所以未来的部分我们现在最大包括我们这个部分都是事情发生完之后我们再回去追溯我们显然没有一个特别的机制可以来做这样的一个预防其实我们现在请国家运科中心来研理一个我们的运科检测的流程以及计划审查流程我们会来请一跟卫福部一起来讨论"},{"start":581.588,"end":608.305,"text":"對 所以你要全面清查陳宗慶老師 周太英老師所申請的所有這個計畫的補助的公編然後呢 最重要我在乎的就是有沒有取得受試者的同意書而且經過他們的簽署而不是被脅迫我覺得這個部分才是才是很大的一個重點啊所以我真的覺得體育署應該演繹怎麼樣強制送審這個IRB你們目前為止還是不是一個必要的條件但是未來不要告訴我只是一個趨勢這都是一樣因為畢竟用到你們的錢"},{"start":609.325,"end":618.649,"text":"這還是非常重要的這件事情引發出太多太多執行層面的問題最後問一個那個體育部你剛好在這個地方你有被徵詢運動部的部長的這個部分嗎沒有"},{"start":622.83,"end":642.209,"text":"目前没有是吧?没有。目前没有。好,那目前筹备的状况如何?给我一分钟就好。目前筹备状况如何?报告委员,目前我们将在原体育大楼设置运动部门,部分的部门像在全民署以及产业科技师以及资讯处会到,我们就将离站附近的灌达。"},{"start":642.349,"end":649.555,"text":"沒有啦我只是說你現在人力是從130個我們現在人是有總共427個對但是據說你們現在招聘並不如預期喔從130變成429而且你分兩年合計而且目前來說你們的規模已經提升到210"},{"start":658.441,"end":685.292,"text":"但是呢据说你们的招聘目前为止不如这个预期这个人力的承揽各方面的部分我还是强调而且最终变成一个运动部里面有非常多非常多像是我们以前跟特别提到的这个执行的层面像运动产业条例非常多的职棒的运动员也非常希望在提升为运动部完之后能够对于他们所关切的包括企业联下包括这个台皮篮球队没有替有过半没有替选手来劳保这个问题"},{"start":685.652,"end":692.558,"text":"我希望在成立这样的部会当中你可以继续执行而且确实的执行这才是成立运动部最大的一个目标"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":99,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時21分）謝謝召委。是不是先請教育部鄭部長？"],["主席：請鄭部長備質詢。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：部長好。我針對臺師大女足問題就教部長。目前這件事已經處理告一段落，但後續的檢討機制及如何避免它發生，我想我們還是必須釐清。","這件事在去年11月爆發，就教育部跟國科會的處理態度我們來看一下。部長，你知不知道國科會什麼時候成立專案小組？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，這件事發生在11月28日……"],["柯委員志恩：我知道，所以我問你知不知道國科會什麼時候成立專案小組？國科會剛剛已經報過，我現在只是……因為這件事牽涉到兩個中央部會，一個是國科會，一個是教育部……"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，國科會在隔天，即11月29日就馬上發文臺灣師大，要求兩個禮拜內做調查……"],["柯委員志恩：沒錯，我懂。國科會函請師大，所以他們動作也算快，並於12月23日成立專案小組，沒錯吧？動作不算太慢，可惜的是這半年裡國科會跟臺師大都在做公文往返！但教育部在這半年裡做了什麼？國科會做了，但教育部做了什麼？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，事實上我們在12月16日就針對臺師大……因為國科會責成臺師大調查，而之後師大把調查結果給教育部，我們認為當中有許多疑點要再進一步查清，故責成師大……12月16日我們就已經啟動……"],["柯委員志恩：我們來看一下。1月2日時，臺師大將倫理調查報告送給教育部，確定違反人體研究法規。我剛剛看了副主委的報告，知道去年國科會就成立專案小組，並開了三次會議，但教育部到今年5月19日才召開專案會議，沒錯吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告……"],["柯委員志恩：晚了七個月！"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有！事實上我們在3月6日就召開了第一次大專校院研究倫理……"],["柯委員志恩：為什麼到現在還鬧得沸沸揚揚？顯然這兩個部會所做的沒有辦法滿足受害學生的需求！這件事如果早有處理，就不會鬧到全國皆知。我現在想了解，前天的新聞提及教育部到三所學校，臺大、臺師大及北市大三所學校，因為可以做IRB申請審核的學校全國有十三個，對不對？你們為什麼前天才去看這三所學校？不是應該更早嗎？事情已經發生這麼久了，七個月時間，為什麼到前天才去看這三所學校？"],["鄭部長英耀：因為有很多問題仍在調查，委員在大學任教，本身是大學教授出身，理當知道這點。而且所有程序我們都依法快速在處理……"],["柯委員志恩：我知道，所以現在我們要做檢討，而且你前天才去，新聞也才發布，讓我們覺得動作有點太慢了。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們今天是針對學校的許多東西……"],["柯委員志恩：根據法規規定，教育部對於倫審會具有監督跟輔導之責，根據要點，教育部必須對這部分……過去這麼多年來，教育部對於這十三個倫審會有做任何的抽查嗎？我們先排除臺師大這個案子，請問你們有做任何抽查跟輔導嗎？有發現任何不符合IRB規定的事項嗎？你們有做過嗎？有做過這樣的動作嗎？有幾次？過去十年有幾次？"],["廖司長高賢：跟柯委員報告，從109年到113年當中，我們都有定期或不定期……"],["柯委員志恩：有幾次？對這13個學校做抽查，有幾次？"],["廖司長高賢：基本上每一間學校都有進行抽查。"],["柯委員志恩：每一年都進行抽查？"],["廖司長高賢：我們從109年開始對這13所學校不定期抽查，但是我們都有抽查過一輪，這些相關資料，我們可以會後提供給委員。"],["柯委員志恩：好，我想要了解你們到底是如何，因為現在都有法規在，但顯然是法規和執行層面出現一個很大的落差。不好意思，我是不是可以請陳學志主委？雖然過去我們在幽默心理學上曾……陳主委是非常具有經驗的。"],["主席：請陳學志主委。"],["柯委員志恩：我很想了解一下，因為這是全國矚目的點，臺師大倫審會為什麼對於……看到女足每一個人所陳述的真是血淚斑斑，一天有三次，為什麼臺師大可以讓這樣的案子通過呢？你們的倫審會為什麼看到這樣一個計畫申請可以讓它通過呢？"],["陳主任委員學志：報告委員，我們在審查的時候看到提出來的資料，裡面並沒有一天抽三次血，只有一天抽一次血，實際我們去問的時候，很多學生也說都是一天只有抽一次血，只有在沒有辦法抽足的時候才會再補抽，所以這個案子事先也都有送給校外的醫生審查。"],["柯委員志恩：所以經過校外醫生，你們認為這個案子他們所呈報上去的不是一天三次，而是一天一次，而且醫生認為這個是符合我們一般的健康、一般的標準，所以你們才會允許？當學生爆料說一天三次，而且不止一個學生這樣說的時候，你們倫審會的態度是什麼？"],["陳主任委員學志：報告委員，我們有去追查，而且會把原來資料調出來，我們發現在精準運動科學的時候，並沒有發現非醫事人員抽血，因為主持人都有把護士的證照、抽血時間跟匯款人紀錄都有拿出來。"],["柯委員志恩：我覺得這個資訊上是有一些落差，特別你剛剛說你只看到一次，但是學生卻說是三次，這就是我等一下要特別問部長的。我們現在雖然有建立這樣一個機制，但是不管是IRB或REC，在落實跟申請等等之間到底是出現什麼樣的問題？倫審會認為是一次，也覺得符合醫生所說的，可是到最後的結果卻是老師、執行計畫的申請人做的竟然跟他們送的計畫有一些執行上的落差，我這樣說沒有錯吧？這部分未來教育部該怎麼辦？陳老師，你可以回座。教育部，你該怎麼辦？對這樣的問題。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心。確實我們過去在IRB裡面，在大學端比較少建立內控、內稽這樣一個機制，包含學生在接受或者受試者在接受一些相關學術研究的時候，我們也比較少建立這樣一個……"],["柯委員志恩：是，部長，這就是我們今天質詢最主要的目的，因為我們都有這個法規、我們都有相關單位，可是要不是爆發出臺師大這件事情的話，沒有人想到，包括我們自己的學生在做這樣子的論文的時候，要經過這樣的申請，基本上因為沒有牽涉到血液的部分，所以大家就是計畫來了，稍微看一下就讓它通過，然後發現執行層面是有一些問題。","我現在接下來要請體育署長也一起上來，基本上除了國科會這個報告之外，周教授跟陳忠慶教授申請運發基金裡面的150萬也是要採血，他們申請到運發基金，這跟國科會的不一樣，申請單位不一樣，當然審查單位就不一樣。","我想請問一下，鄭署長你也在大學教書，你認為這件案子裡面有沒有違反受試者意願進行抽血？因為它也有採血，而且第一時間，我還是要強調，鄭署長，你還幫他們洗地，你告訴我抽血不等於採血，而且你們告訴我們IRB在你們這個領域當中是未來的趨勢，結果你看看，在這個報告當中，明明所謂抽血這樣一件事情，還有送請IRB的審核機制也有啊！它也有條列出來，它要申請經費，那怎麼可能沒有呢？體育署面對這些狀況怎麼說？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我想這個是周台英老師跟陳忠慶老師本身就違反了我們一開始的運科支援計畫的精神，我們的計畫是用現有的研究成果應用在選手的強化表現，但不能夠做……"],["柯委員志恩：你這邊有提過運動訓練服務，不是人體研究，對不對？"],["鄭署長世忠：對！所以他不能夠拿來做研究。"],["柯委員志恩：所以是他違法對不對？"],["鄭署長世忠：他本身違反了這個規定。"],["柯委員志恩：所以這又是一個問題嘛！你們讓他有150萬的錢，是用你們的運發基金，對於他的執行，你們現在都告訴我說他違反，這中間的落差到底是怎麼樣？我們所有的東西都有配套，所有的審查機制都已經擺在那個地方，可是你發現所有執行的東西跟當初向你們申請、跟你們發的錢完全不一樣，那未來該怎麼辦？"],["鄭署長世忠：這個部分我們還是會強調……報告委員，說實在的，大部分我們這個計畫裡面的所有運科支援，參與的老師都知道真的不能拿去發表，它也不是研究，所以真的是陳忠慶本身個人的一個違規行為。"],["柯委員志恩：所以未來……包括這個部分，都是事情發生完之後，我們再回去追溯，我們顯然沒有一個特別的機制可以做相關的預防。"],["鄭署長世忠：是有的，報告委員，我們現在請國家運科中心研擬一個運科檢測的流程以及計畫審查流程，我們會……"],["柯委員志恩：好，一個月之內是不是可以……"],["鄭署長世忠：跟衛福部一起討論。"],["柯委員志恩：對，所以你要全面清查陳忠慶老師、周台英老師申請的所有計畫補助，然後最重要我在乎的是有沒有取得受試者的同意書。"],["鄭署長世忠：沒有錯。"],["柯委員志恩：而且經過他們的同意簽署，而不是被脅迫的，我覺得這個部分才是很大的一個重點。所以我真的覺得體育署應該研議怎麼樣強制送審IRB，目前為止這還不是一個必要的條件，但是未來……不要告訴我只是一個趨勢。"],["鄭署長世忠：我們會跟衛福部討論這件事。"],["柯委員志恩：這都一樣，因為畢竟用到你們的錢，這還是非常重要的，這件事情引發出太多太多執行層面的問題。最後問一個，體育部……你剛好在這個地方……"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，是運動部。"],["柯委員志恩：你有被徵詢接任運動部部長嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告，沒有！"],["柯委員志恩：目前沒有，是不是？"],["鄭署長世忠：沒有。"],["柯委員志恩：目前沒有！好，目前籌備的狀況如何？給我1分鐘就好，目前籌備狀況如何？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，目前我們將在原體育大樓設置運動部，部分部門，像全民署、產業科技司以及資訊處會到六張犁站附近的冠德、和平大樓。"],["柯委員志恩：好，沒有，我只是說現在的人力是從130個……"],["鄭署長世忠：我們現在總共有427個……"],["柯委員志恩：對，但是據說你們現在招聘並不如預期，從130變成429，而且分兩年合計，目前來說你們的規模已經提升到200億，但是到目前為止招聘並不如預期，包括人力承攬各方面。我還是強調，最重要是變成一個運動部，裡面有非常多、非常多，像我們以前特別提到的執行層面，像運動產業發展條例，非常多職棒的運動員也非常希望在提升為運動部之後，能夠對於他們所關切的，包括企業聯賽、包括台啤籃球隊有過半選手沒有加入勞保這個問題，我希望在成立這個部會當中，你可以繼續執行，而且確實的執行，這才是成立運動部最大的一個目標，對不對？"],["鄭署長世忠：謝謝委員提醒。"],["柯委員志恩：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩委員，質詢官員請回座。"],["主席（劉委員書彬代）：現在請葛如鈞委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-18","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","劉書彬","萬美玲","陳秀寳","張雅琳","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","范雲","李坤城","黃捷","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","陳培瑜","葉元之","黃國昌","高金素梅","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":3,"meetingDate":["2025-08-07"],"gazette_id":"1147202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長列席就「全國中小學教師人力不足現況與具體因應對策」進行專題報告並備\n質詢；二、邀請教育部部長、國家科學及技術委員會、衛生福利部列席就「如何強化研究計畫之\n人體研究倫理把關機制，以保障人權，捍衛科研價值，並避免類似台師大女足抽血違反研究倫理\n之案件再次發生」進行專題報告，並備質詢；三、邀請教育部部長、行政院人事行政總處及行政\n院主計總處列席就「9月9日運動部成立籌備情形與後續推動規劃」進行專題報告並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147202_00002"}}}