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00:01:10,073\n講次數我現在重點是在次數就這個案子5月235月23因為業次長他是在4月的時候嘛那5月23就成立了這個教育的而且有開會嗎有開會開會第一次開會然後專案小組在5月26號就正式成立所以業次長也因為專案小組成立因為\n\n4\n00:01:11,074 --> 00:01:20,262\n確立要調查成立的專案小組然後這委員會很快的委請了這些這個領域的這個學術專家那最近的那一次結果是什麼這一個對不起因為整個還是在專案小組的一個調查裡邊我想我們尊重調查小組的一個會議在還調查期間我事實上我也在討論有關業比業資上應該你知道應該知道幾次會議對吧\n\n5\n00:01:38,201 --> 00:01:52,576\n幾次會議對不起我沒有辦法回答委員也許我事後可以幾次會議當然是可以因為報紙上都有講出來在7月28號的時候其實都已經有召開一次會議那是另外那是初步的一個大會的一個會議但是大會會議對專案小組的一個調查仍有一些\n\n6\n00:01:57,621 --> 00:02:14,582\n這一個希望在年輕了所以才會再延長那我要跟委員報告因為涉及到我們葉市長的這個職務跟身分的關係教育部包含我所有的教育部的代表我們全部都是迴避了所以我們基本上我們是不曉得這個整個後來的一個\n\n7\n00:02:17,185 --> 00:02:30,392\n因為記得你們還是主責的部分啦當然說這該開幾次會議應該要了解如果到目前我聽的資料除了8月23號到7月28號之後看起來就只有兩次期初跟7月28號就只有開兩次會那目前說到8月20號我們現在要講的是這件事情跟跟我們的教師的士氣是會有相關的因為如果在\n\n8\n00:02:42,776 --> 00:03:02,829\n兩個七十二天的時間之內只開頭第一次跟第二次會議之後越來預計8月22號再開個最後結案會議而且是在大罷免之前所以在第二次的罷免之前的時候那這樣子變成說產生一個效果是半小不半大這都對我們的基層的老師的士氣可能很大的影響我們就先到這邊為止我要跟委員報告外面有許多的猜測這都是不真實的\n\n9\n00:03:08,089 --> 00:03:25,480\n因為就我個人來講我希望有關陳儒剛才主席也特別關注到我們總是希望這個事情到底是怎麼樣越早結束越好但是專案小組在整個查證的過程裡面因為涉及到當事人我們希望配合當事人還有許多相關利害關係人\n\n10\n00:03:26,220 --> 00:03:31,744\n在第一個月我原來希望一個月就結束但是後來專案小組在整個查證的資料過程裡面他們認為必須要到兩個月好那我們就等待希望是到時候給全國教師的一個印象是休育部是應該辦大也要辦小而且合理的辦\n\n11\n00:03:49,356 --> 00:03:59,161\n我想這我們一定會遵照法令上來做的這也是質評論這也是我的痛我必須要講我希望他趕快請住不好意思麻煩讓委員講完我們現在回到的是今天的一個主持那因為我本身是個大學教師所以也特別正視到對教師這部分的內容我們看一下\n\n12\n00:04:13,843 --> 00:04:27,247\n在你們的報告當中已經呈現出來說111年到114年的當中呢國高中的這個老師的缺額已經有改善了但是我想要問的是說在113年剛剛過去的這個113年一般的國中小學的師生比是多少2.0一般的是兩個\n\n13\n00:04:50,421 --> 00:05:04,572\n好那我請問一下齁那在這個情況之下那台北市的我說的師生比齁就在於說那一個學一個老師到底照顧多少的學生尤其在台北市像另外再找一個一個高雄市來講的話有沒有這下的數據有嗎\n\n14\n00:05:07,944 --> 00:05:28,095\n因為從教師團體所得到的訊息台北市的部分是缺二事實上是他的學生或是新北市的人數是非常多的是跟委員報告按照原來編制的標準一個班大概不能超過29人小學國中是30人就台北實際的狀況每一個班會不一樣有些班級可能18人有些可能到滿29人那這個數字我們後續會給您大概先下班前我們把台北市問一下\n\n15\n00:05:34,919 --> 00:05:56,369\n那委員剛才講的那個台北市個別的因素我們也有注意到我們也會一起來處理謝謝好謝謝那另外我們看到今年已經現在已經到一百一十四學年度了吧那我們看到的是從你們報告當中得知到國小的是八點八五那國中是六點二五高中是六趴那你們是標準是說達到八趴是大概是合理的情況那像這樣的情況之下目前連開學還不到一個月請問這個缺額怎麼樣處理法\n\n16\n00:06:00,425 --> 00:06:16,237\n跟委員報告這不是這個代理代課這個控制在8%以下它這是今年的中小學教師的增試那不足額大概有8.8%比如說以國中的6.25%大概就是有125個人因為它總共這一個\n\n17\n00:06:25,263 --> 00:06:32,068\n部主委我跟您報告一下在我們的報告第二頁有寫到像小學為例他要考3108人那麼他考了大概2833人所以他有815人大概有8.85錄取率\n\n18\n00:06:43,862 --> 00:07:11,861\n這個是開學出來的比例所以他這個不是代理律不是代理老師現在委員這個都是正式老師好是正式老師那事實上還是有缺額吧因為我現在都在看下面這張可以知道以今年在6月17號所看到的台北市的不過你教育部剛剛部長有說這部分他們有特別的一些因素存在的不過因為一般的這個代理教師這部分他還是有相當一個比例尤其是在偏遠學校嘛對吧\n\n19\n00:07:13,144 --> 00:07:18,802\n是那偏遠的學校現在帶領教師的這個比例是多少跟委員報告台北\n\n20\n00:07:20,014 --> 00:07:41,980\n教師這一個叫做脫北的這一個名詞我現在問的是我剛才有說特殊的因素我知道但是這部分不一樣因為早期台北市因為當然他的生活機能部長請你尊重我剛才講的這個事情我知道因為我看到報紙有說特別針對偏遠教師的目前的代理教師的比例是多少\n\n21\n00:07:42,878 --> 00:08:00,449\n台北市基本上是沒有偏遠地區的我不是說台北市我說全國的跟委員報告一下如果講代理率的話台灣的偏鄉地區代理率大概達到25%A班地區大概15%代理率對所以這個地方的話那現在馬上要開選那怎麼個處理法\n\n22\n00:08:04,184 --> 00:08:20,336\n有一些具體的這個技術面的事情跟您報告一下第一點我們會周周控管來協助地方政府第二點正式老師那個缺額在前面七月底以前他們考過之後會放到代理這邊所以我們現在從現在開始在考代理老師我們會周周來協助22縣市\n\n23\n00:08:22,157 --> 00:08:30,579\n好希望我們的尤其是偏向學校的老師他們在現場能夠真的是幫助到我們的學生不然的話這是已經要開學沒辦法處理的那我們繼續往下看喔包括你們的報告當中也呈現到說之前還沒看到你們報告之前我們知道在儲備教師這部分有的是目前有逾7萬人不過因為你們後來已經昨天的報告當中最新呈現出來說如果以活躍的這個儲備教師來看的話呢是有2萬7千人\n\n24\n00:08:51,243 --> 00:09:08,136\n那應徵率五年內是八成那報考是八成就再去做這個徵試的部分三年內報考是七成五可是為什麼你越來越近的時間內反而是他的去報考徵試的部分是人數少的而且我們再看看旁邊的這邊大家也看到遠見雜誌的這個內容當中就算是擔任正式教師之後呢他\n\n25\n00:09:12,399 --> 00:09:20,384\n他的這個比例從69.1下滑到57.5呢他繼續要留下來這部分他甚至不願意要進入到教室這些部分而且呢這些部分呢就會造成的是因為老師出去之後後來導致代理教室就越來越進去到裡面去那請問部長是說您知道說為什麼放棄這個教室正式教室他會放棄這樣的一個教室嗎\n\n26\n00:09:38,357 --> 00:10:02,304\n跟委員報告其實我們這些年來在世代交替退休的人數是多的那再加上少子化所以各縣市基本上有比較多的控留的比例來聘待老師可是我也跟委員報告我們這三年來為什麼會各縣市開始把這一個正式的確有出來是因為我們一一年政策做了一些\n\n27\n00:10:03,784 --> 00:10:18,957\n要求在配合一般補助一般地方的補助款裡邊我們把各地方的教師的這個專任營養的控管比例納入我們獎補助的一個指標所以各縣市就開始把\n\n28\n00:10:19,977 --> 00:10:41,025\n這個部分我都知道但是我先跟秀一下這個資料齁這個昨天在偏遠教師的這邊呈現出來有民間團體呈現出來大家看一下這個資料齁全職的外送員他的薪資在平常狀況之下的時候是大概4萬到8萬高的話還可以到8萬到這個地方正式的教師如果新進的部分啦他事實上是3萬2到3萬5那國小的這個部分的新進教師呢是到達大概碩士的大概4萬如果你就這個地方來看的話\n\n29\n00:10:49,188 --> 00:11:02,078\n教師他如果獲得到一個不是很好的待遇的情況之下包括沒有尊重的話這就是一個原因這部分那第二個我們再看一下的時候是有一個地方的教師團體跟我們的反應的時候是呈現出來是目前在高級中等以下學校教師的解併跟不續併跟停併跟諮詢辦法當中很清楚的呈現到說如果是因為在校園裡面有\n\n30\n00:11:14,248 --> 00:11:20,313\n出現到說有疑似到被害對這個學生部分有對這個學習權、受教權或身體自主權等等的這個人格氾濫權有影響的時候呢就進入到校事會議而校事會議重要是要在包括連媒體報導的部分都呈現出來就是他就進到調查的這個而且調查的內容的過程非常繁瑣這個情況之下\n\n31\n00:11:35,026 --> 00:11:42,408\n請問校長請問部長齁一個校育的團體教育的這個機構裡面用的是直接進入到所謂的用調查的方式而不是回歸到教育的本質因為部長你之前也是大學的校長教授等等的這個部分的話你面對這種情況之下尤其這是一個辦法是在屬於行政命令的部分對這個部分有這樣的意見呈現而且是很多的教師團體全教總都出現這個意見的你們有什麼看法\n\n32\n00:12:03,302 --> 00:12:30,805\n各位報告校士法大概校士的規定是在教師法下的一個授權那從去年開始實施確實在這一年裡邊我們也發現了不少的問題那當然我們國教署也在收集這些問題簡單來講我們目前的學校學生或者老師師生的一些行為上的一個這個糾正或者這個懲處他本來是學校有\n\n33\n00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:56,489\n教評會過去都是在教評會現在多了一個校事會校事會那校事會裡面就會涉及到這一個解聘這一個停聘不續聘等等的這些很複雜的問題就是說我們包含學生的一些衝突等等的一個處理所以我們現在就在想因為進入到校事會議目前都是法令規範都是校外的學者專家或者領域專家來針對學校的視線來做這一個調查\n\n34\n00:13:01,371 --> 00:13:22,648\n那學校裡面會造成一些困擾就是說因為他們可能有專業但是對學校的現況並不是那麼清楚了解所以我們現在在研議收集全國的一個資料希望是不是能夠至少教師的代表家長的代表他了解這個學校實際的運作然後再加上\n\n35\n00:13:23,368 --> 00:13:47,585\n這個一半以上的這些校外委員學者專家領域專家來共同來比較有一個好的一個討論能夠希望不要造成這個被冤枉但是如果真的不良老師我們當然希望他退場但是也不希望因為這樣造成校長的教育所以我想簡單一句是說你們事實上在定期在做檢討事實上準備在做了那大概是多久時間呢\n\n36\n00:13:48,866 --> 00:14:16,567\n大概是不是有大概在今年的大概十月左右年底之前我想我們會有一個訂入出來年底之前是好謝謝好那這個部分我剛才也提到說這個是不是沒有那兩個東西其實最重要的這個辛酸當你教師沒辦法去得到一個認同原來是一個置業的事情而不是一個職業卻當中這個效果其實是很遺憾的然後另外的部分我們再去往下看簡單的部分我還是必須要提供一個議題這在於說\n\n37\n00:14:22,903 --> 00:14:41,038\n這個部分在於因為在前幾個禮拜之前出現到一個問題是在於說你們的一個師特別針對在偏鄉的尤其在自然教師這部分的時候尤其在STEM的這個情況那他提出來的部分就是說對於這個專業教師呢\n\n38\n00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:48,042\n因為這個少那這邊部分引進到所謂高中教師的有這個相關的辦法所以說針對這些老師在自然科學的部分讓用免休職前學分跟免考試跟免實習的狀況的這個條件來讓大家支援可是這個支援的部分是在國小的部分那這邊部分國教署這邊有沒有什麼回應因為大家要知道\n\n39\n00:15:08,970 --> 00:15:35,090\n這個如果是有專技的這些部分的他是在高中沒有問題可是你們卻是用這個高中的這個辦法來去引用到國小的這樣的師資的自然科學的部分其實教也是對於學對教師是非常大的一個一個一個一個貶義啊因為老師他必須修了很多的這個學分包括是怎麼樣去對待學生怎麼樣心理的輔導等等的沒有如果沒有這些部分的話那直接到國小的時候他可能會造成這一種隔閡那請問部長您的看法\n\n40\n00:15:38,952 --> 00:15:54,591\n跟委員報告謝謝委員讓我有補充說明的機會事實上我們的想法是因為現在高職類科特別在高職類科有許多的理工的這些專業的科目學科的專業的科目找不到老師\n\n41\n00:15:55,552 --> 00:16:17,802\n那我們就希望說有許多大學退場的或者大學的一些科技大學的老師他退學校可能退場但是他非常優秀他能夠轉任到高職或者產業都在R&D裡邊或者他在對產業他都是有Masterdegree以上的他們有願意轉任因為以我們現在來講業師\n\n42\n00:16:20,123 --> 00:16:23,926\n他本來就沒有任何專業的事但是我們這裡邊還有6年的這個工作的機會有一些條件的限制他能夠真正的專業能夠滿足又能夠有產業豐富的經驗能夠協助我們高職我想訊息上有一些報導上有一些落差他涉及包括還有小學的部分如果只是在高職這部分我們優先要考量的是高中職的老師\n\n43\n00:16:50,203 --> 00:17:11,838\n在STEM的這個領域裡邊的老師的這個來源所以你指中的高職就對了是吧我目前是鎖定在高中好如果這樣子的話就沒問題我們再做一個澄清謝謝那這一部分配合在我們的一個有一些選服的部分我就簡單的詢問一下在這部分對於在私校的這個學雜費的部分那這部分因為它有大概\n\n44\n00:17:12,698 --> 00:17:21,704\n十幾年這個都沒有漲價了那你們對這部分有沒有在思效的部分因為思效的還是有多的是自己的一個學費所收入那你們這部分有沒有什麼看法放寬他的一個\n\n45\n00:17:25,975 --> 00:17:51,197\n主席大概就一分鐘多就結束了謝謝報告委員我們現在針對學雜費其實有一定的機制針對114年到116年其實有編列特別預算要來協助學校他來申請特別預算的部分相關的學校就要承諾在114學年度到116學年度不要去調漲學雜費不調漲學雜費但是我們會用特別預算來挹注學校的校務經營\n\n46\n00:17:52,615 --> 00:18:04,048\n所以還是有可能的是不是就是說用救愛部對學校的這種補助款的方式去抑制他們的經營是好張主任高中的部分的學費是我們來協助但是雜費是由各主管機關來訂定\n\n47\n00:18:05,578 --> 00:18:18,230\nOK好謝謝市長的一個部分好那我目前的好那就是現在做了一個這樣子一個說明就謝謝謝謝這個支部交易部的這個相關的主事部長還有那好謝謝主席給我這麼多時間謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8345\t10708\t我請教育部正部長請正部長備質詢 謝謝委員好部長好在葉秉成次長的這件事情上面他因為在五月中有請假請問一下在這個調查委員會教育部總共開了幾次到現在\n32759\t47875\t要查委員會就是開會開了幾次跟委員報告因為這一個我們這一個當這一個選投訴的時候我們在5月2323號的時候就教育部的一個性評委員會就成立然後就召開確認\n49757\t70073\t講次數我現在重點是在次數就這個案子5月235月23因為業次長他是在4月的時候嘛那5月23就成立了這個教育的而且有開會嗎有開會開會第一次開會然後專案小組在5月26號就正式成立所以業次長也因為專案小組成立因為\n71074\t80262\t確立要調查成立的專案小組然後這委員會很快的委請了這些這個領域的這個學術專家那最近的那一次結果是什麼這一個對不起因為整個還是在專案小組的一個調查裡邊我想我們尊重調查小組的一個會議在還調查期間我事實上我也在討論有關業比 業資上應該你知道應該知道幾次會議對吧\n98201\t112576\t幾次會議對不起我沒有辦法回答委員也許我事後可以幾次會議當然是可以因為報紙上都有講出來在7月28號的時候其實都已經有召開一次會議那是另外那是初步的一個大會的一個會議但是大會會議對專案小組的一個調查仍有一些\n117621\t134582\t這一個希望在年輕了所以才會再延長那我要跟委員報告因為涉及到我們葉市長的這個職務跟身分的關係教育部包含我所有的教育部的代表我們全部都是迴避了所以我們基本上我們是不曉得這個整個後來的一個\n137185\t150392\t因為記得你們還是主責的部分啦當然說這該開幾次會議應該要了解如果到目前我聽的資料除了8月23號到7月28號之後看起來就只有兩次期初跟7月28號就只有開兩次會那目前說到8月20號我們現在要講的是這件事情跟跟我們的教師的士氣是會有相關的因為如果在\n162776\t182829\t兩個七十二天的時間之內只開頭第一次跟第二次會議之後越來預計8月22號再開個最後結案會議而且是在大罷免之前所以在第二次的罷免之前的時候那這樣子變成說產生一個效果是半小不半大這都對我們的基層的老師的士氣可能很大的影響我們就先到這邊為止我要跟委員報告外面有許多的猜測這都是不真實的\n188089\t205480\t因為就我個人來講我希望有關陳儒剛才主席也特別關注到我們總是希望這個事情到底是怎麼樣越早結束越好但是專案小組在整個查證的過程裡面因為涉及到當事人我們希望配合當事人還有許多相關利害關係人\n206220\t211744\t在第一個月我原來希望一個月就結束但是後來專案小組在整個查證的資料過程裡面他們認為必須要到兩個月好那我們就等待希望是到時候給全國教師的一個印象是休育部是應該辦大也要辦小而且合理的辦\n229356\t239161\t我想這我們一定會遵照法令上來做的這也是 質評論這也是我的痛我必須要講 我希望他趕快 請住不好意思 麻煩讓委員講完我們現在回到的是今天的一個主持那因為我本身是個大學教師所以也特別正視到對教師這部分的內容我們看一下\n253843\t267247\t在你們的報告當中已經呈現出來說111年到114年的當中呢國高中的這個老師的缺額已經有改善了但是我想要問的是說在113年剛剛過去的這個113年一般的國中小學的師生比是多少2.0一般的是兩個\n290421\t304572\t好那我請問一下齁那在這個情況之下那台北市的我說的師生比齁就在於說那一個學一個老師到底照顧多少的學生尤其在台北市像另外再找一個一個高雄市來講的話有沒有這下的數據有嗎\n307944\t328095\t因為從教師團體所得到的訊息台北市的部分是缺二事實上是他的學生或是新北市的人數是非常多的是 跟委員報告按照原來編制的標準一個班大概不能超過29人小學國中是30人就台北實際的狀況每一個班會不一樣有些班級可能18人有些可能到滿29人那這個數字我們後續會給您大概先下班前我們把台北市問一下\n334919\t356369\t那委員剛才講的那個台北市個別的因素我們也有注意到我們也會一起來處理 謝謝好 謝謝那另外我們看到今年已經現在已經到一百一十四學年度了吧那我們看到的是從你們報告當中得知到國小的是八點八五那國中是六點二五高中是六趴那你們是標準是說達到八趴是大概是合理的情況那像這樣的情況之下目前連開學還不到一個月請問這個缺額怎麼樣處理法\n360425\t376237\t跟委員報告這不是這個代理代課這個控制在8%以下它這是今年的中小學教師的增試那不足額大概有8.8%比如說以國中的6.25%大概就是有125個人因為它總共這一個\n385263\t392068\t部主委我跟您報告一下在我們的報告第二頁有寫到像小學為例他要考3108人那麼他考了大概2833人所以他有815人大概有8.85錄取率\n403862\t431861\t這個是開學出來的比例所以他這個不是代理律不是代理老師現在委員這個都是正式老師好 是正式老師那事實上還是有缺額吧因為我現在都在看下面這張可以知道以今年在6月17號所看到的台北市的 不過你教育部剛剛部長有說這部分他們有特別的一些因素存在的不過因為一般的這個代理教師這部分他還是有相當一個比例尤其是在偏遠學校嘛 對吧\n433144\t438802\t是那偏遠的學校現在帶領教師的這個比例是多少跟委員報告台北\n440014\t461980\t教師這一個叫做脫北的這一個名詞我現在問的是我剛才有說特殊的因素我知道但是這部分不一樣因為早期台北市因為當然他的生活機能部長請你尊重我剛才講的這個事情我知道因為我看到報紙有說特別針對偏遠教師的目前的代理教師的比例是多少\n462878\t480449\t台北市基本上是沒有偏遠地區的我不是說台北市 我說全國的跟委員報告一下如果講代理率的話台灣的偏鄉地區代理率大概達到25%A班地區大概15%代理率對 所以這個地方的話那現在馬上要開選 那怎麼個處理法\n484184\t500336\t有一些具體的這個技術面的事情跟您報告一下第一點我們會周周控管來協助地方政府第二點正式老師那個缺額在前面七月底以前他們考過之後會放到代理這邊所以我們現在從現在開始在考代理老師我們會周周來協助22縣市\n502157\t510579\t好 希望我們的尤其是偏向學校的老師他們在現場能夠真的是幫助到我們的學生不然的話這是已經要開學沒辦法處理的那我們繼續往下看喔包括你們的報告當中也呈現到說之前還沒看到你們報告之前我們知道在儲備教師這部分有的是目前有逾7萬人不過因為你們後來已經昨天的報告當中最新呈現出來說如果以活躍的這個儲備教師來看的話呢是有2萬7千人\n531243\t548136\t那應徵率五年內是八成那報考是八成就再去做這個徵試的部分三年內報考是七成五可是為什麼你越來越近的時間內反而是他的去報考徵試的部分是人數少的而且我們再看看旁邊的這邊大家也看到遠見雜誌的這個內容當中就算是擔任正式教師之後呢他\n552399\t560384\t他的這個比例從69.1下滑到57.5呢他繼續要留下來這部分他甚至不願意要進入到教室這些部分而且呢這些部分呢就會造成的是因為老師出去之後後來導致代理教室就越來越進去到裡面去那請問部長是說您知道說為什麼放棄這個教室正式教室他會放棄這樣的一個教室嗎\n578357\t602304\t跟委員報告其實我們這些年來在世代交替退休的人數是多的那再加上少子化所以各縣市基本上有比較多的控留的比例來聘待老師可是我也跟委員報告我們這三年來為什麼會各縣市開始把這一個正式的確有出來是因為我們一一年政策做了一些\n603784\t618957\t要求在配合一般補助一般地方的補助款裡邊我們把各地方的教師的這個專任營養的控管比例納入我們獎補助的一個指標所以各縣市就開始把\n619977\t641025\t這個部分我都知道 但是我先跟秀一下這個資料齁這個昨天在偏遠教師的這邊呈現出來有民間團體呈現出來 大家看一下這個資料齁全職的外送員他的薪資在平常狀況之下的時候是大概4萬到8萬高的話還可以到8萬到這個地方正式的教師如果新進的部分啦他事實上是3萬2到3萬5那國小的這個部分的新進教師呢是到達大概碩士的大概4萬如果你就這個地方來看的話\n649188\t662078\t教師他如果獲得到一個不是很好的待遇的情況之下包括沒有尊重的話這就是一個原因這部分那第二個我們再看一下的時候是有一個地方的教師團體跟我們的反應的時候是呈現出來是目前在高級中等以下學校教師的解併跟不續併跟停併跟諮詢辦法當中很清楚的呈現到說如果是因為在校園裡面有\n674248\t680313\t出現到說有疑似到被害對這個學生部分有對這個學習權、受教權或身體自主權等等的這個人格氾濫權有影響的時候呢就進入到校事會議而校事會議重要是要在包括連媒體報導的部分都呈現出來就是他就進到調查的這個而且調查的內容的過程非常繁瑣這個情況之下\n695026\t702408\t請問校長 請問部長齁 一個校育的團體 教育的這個機構裡面用的是直接進入到所謂的用調查的方式 而不是回歸到教育的本質因為部長你之前也是大學的校長 教授等等的這個部分的話 你面對這種情況之下 尤其這是一個辦法是在屬於行政命令的部分 對這個部分有這樣的意見呈現而且是很多的教師團體 全教總都出現這個意見的 你們有什麼看法\n723302\t750805\t各位報告校士法大概校士的規定是在教師法下的一個授權那從去年開始實施確實在這一年裡邊我們也發現了不少的問題那當然我們國教署也在收集這些問題簡單來講我們目前的學校學生或者老師師生的一些行為上的一個這個糾正或者這個懲處他本來是學校有\n751960\t776489\t教評會過去都是在教評會現在多了一個校事會校事會那校事會裡面就會涉及到這一個解聘這一個停聘不續聘等等的這些很複雜的問題就是說我們包含學生的一些衝突等等的一個處理所以我們現在就在想因為進入到校事會議目前都是法令規範都是校外的學者專家或者領域專家來針對學校的視線來做這一個調查\n781371\t802648\t那學校裡面會造成一些困擾就是說因為他們可能有專業但是對學校的現況並不是那麼清楚了解所以我們現在在研議收集全國的一個資料希望是不是能夠至少教師的代表家長的代表他了解這個學校實際的運作然後再加上\n803368\t827585\t這個一半以上的這些校外委員 學者專家 領域專家來共同來比較有一個好的一個討論能夠希望不要造成這個被冤枉但是如果真的不良老師我們當然希望他退場但是也不希望因為這樣造成校長的教育所以我想簡單一句是說你們事實上在定期在做檢討事實上準備在做了那大概是多久時間呢\n828866\t856567\t大概是不是有大概在今年的大概十月左右年底之前我想我們會有一個訂入出來年底之前是好 謝謝好 那這個部分我剛才也提到說這個是不是沒有那兩個東西其實最重要的這個辛酸當你教師沒辦法去得到一個認同原來是一個置業的事情而不是一個職業卻當中這個效果其實是很遺憾的然後另外的部分我們再去往下看簡單的部分我還是必須要提供一個議題這在於說\n862903\t881038\t這個部分在於因為在前幾個禮拜之前出現到一個問題是在於說你們的一個師特別針對在偏鄉的尤其在自然教師這部分的時候尤其在STEM的這個情況那他提出來的部分就是說對於這個專業教師呢\n883320\t888042\t因為這個少那這邊部分引進到所謂高中教師的有這個相關的辦法所以說針對這些老師在自然科學的部分讓用免休職前學分跟免考試跟免實習的狀況的這個條件來讓大家支援可是這個支援的部分是在國小的部分那這邊部分國教署這邊有沒有什麼回應因為大家要知道\n908970\t935090\t這個如果是有專技的這些部分的他是在高中沒有問題可是你們卻是用這個高中的這個辦法來去引用到國小的這樣的師資的自然科學的部分其實教也是對於學對教師是非常大的一個一個一個一個貶義啊因為老師他必須修了很多的這個學分包括是怎麼樣去對待學生怎麼樣心理的輔導等等的沒有如果沒有這些部分的話那直接到國小的時候他可能會造成這一種隔閡那請問部長您的看法\n938952\t954591\t跟委員報告謝謝委員讓我有補充說明的機會事實上我們的想法是因為現在高職類科特別在高職類科有許多的理工的這些專業的科目學科的專業的科目找不到老師\n955552\t977802\t那我們就希望說有許多大學退場的或者大學的一些科技大學的老師他退學校可能退場但是他非常優秀他能夠轉任到高職或者產業都在R&D裡邊或者他在對產業他都是有Master degree以上的他們有願意轉任因為以我們現在來講業師\n980123\t983926\t他本來就沒有任何專業的事但是我們這裡邊還有6年的這個工作的機會有一些條件的限制他能夠真正的專業能夠滿足又能夠有產業豐富的經驗能夠協助我們高職我想訊息上有一些報導上有一些落差他涉及包括還有小學的部分如果只是在高職這部分我們優先要考量的是高中職的老師\n1010203\t1031838\t在STEM的這個領域裡邊的老師的這個來源所以你指中的高職就對了是吧我目前是鎖定在高中好 如果這樣子的話就沒問題我們再做一個澄清 謝謝那這一部分配合在我們的一個有一些選服的部分我就簡單的詢問一下在這部分對於在私校的這個學雜費的部分那這部分因為它有大概\n1032698\t1041704\t十幾年這個都沒有漲價了那你們對這部分有沒有在思效的部分因為思效的還是有多的是自己的一個學費所收入那你們這部分有沒有什麼看法放寬他的一個\n1045975\t1071197\t主席大概就一分鐘多就結束了謝謝報告委員我們現在針對學雜費其實有一定的機制針對114年到116年其實有編列特別預算要來協助學校他來申請特別預算的部分相關的學校就要承諾在114學年度到116學年度不要去調漲學雜費不調漲學雜費但是我們會用特別預算來挹注學校的校務經營\n1072615\t1084048\t所以還是有可能的 是不是就是說用救愛部對學校的這種補助款的方式去抑制他們的經營是好 張主任高中的部分的學費是我們來協助但是雜費是由各主管機關來訂定\n1085578\t1098230\tOK 好 謝謝市長的一個部分好 那我目前的好 那就是現在做了一個這樣子一個說明就謝謝 謝謝這個支部 交易部的這個相關的主事部長還有 那好 謝謝主席給我這麼多時間 謝謝\n","txt":"我請教育部正部長請正部長備質詢 謝謝委員好部長好在葉秉成次長的這件事情上面他因為在五月中有請假請問一下在這個調查委員會教育部總共開了幾次到現在\n要查委員會就是開會開了幾次跟委員報告因為這一個我們這一個當這一個選投訴的時候我們在5月2323號的時候就教育部的一個性評委員會就成立然後就召開確認\n講次數我現在重點是在次數就這個案子5月235月23因為業次長他是在4月的時候嘛那5月23就成立了這個教育的而且有開會嗎有開會開會第一次開會然後專案小組在5月26號就正式成立所以業次長也因為專案小組成立因為\n確立要調查成立的專案小組然後這委員會很快的委請了這些這個領域的這個學術專家那最近的那一次結果是什麼這一個對不起因為整個還是在專案小組的一個調查裡邊我想我們尊重調查小組的一個會議在還調查期間我事實上我也在討論有關業比 業資上應該你知道應該知道幾次會議對吧\n幾次會議對不起我沒有辦法回答委員也許我事後可以幾次會議當然是可以因為報紙上都有講出來在7月28號的時候其實都已經有召開一次會議那是另外那是初步的一個大會的一個會議但是大會會議對專案小組的一個調查仍有一些\n這一個希望在年輕了所以才會再延長那我要跟委員報告因為涉及到我們葉市長的這個職務跟身分的關係教育部包含我所有的教育部的代表我們全部都是迴避了所以我們基本上我們是不曉得這個整個後來的一個\n因為記得你們還是主責的部分啦當然說這該開幾次會議應該要了解如果到目前我聽的資料除了8月23號到7月28號之後看起來就只有兩次期初跟7月28號就只有開兩次會那目前說到8月20號我們現在要講的是這件事情跟跟我們的教師的士氣是會有相關的因為如果在\n兩個七十二天的時間之內只開頭第一次跟第二次會議之後越來預計8月22號再開個最後結案會議而且是在大罷免之前所以在第二次的罷免之前的時候那這樣子變成說產生一個效果是半小不半大這都對我們的基層的老師的士氣可能很大的影響我們就先到這邊為止我要跟委員報告外面有許多的猜測這都是不真實的\n因為就我個人來講我希望有關陳儒剛才主席也特別關注到我們總是希望這個事情到底是怎麼樣越早結束越好但是專案小組在整個查證的過程裡面因為涉及到當事人我們希望配合當事人還有許多相關利害關係人\n在第一個月我原來希望一個月就結束但是後來專案小組在整個查證的資料過程裡面他們認為必須要到兩個月好那我們就等待希望是到時候給全國教師的一個印象是休育部是應該辦大也要辦小而且合理的辦\n我想這我們一定會遵照法令上來做的這也是 質評論這也是我的痛我必須要講 我希望他趕快 請住不好意思 麻煩讓委員講完我們現在回到的是今天的一個主持那因為我本身是個大學教師所以也特別正視到對教師這部分的內容我們看一下\n在你們的報告當中已經呈現出來說111年到114年的當中呢國高中的這個老師的缺額已經有改善了但是我想要問的是說在113年剛剛過去的這個113年一般的國中小學的師生比是多少2.0一般的是兩個\n好那我請問一下齁那在這個情況之下那台北市的我說的師生比齁就在於說那一個學一個老師到底照顧多少的學生尤其在台北市像另外再找一個一個高雄市來講的話有沒有這下的數據有嗎\n因為從教師團體所得到的訊息台北市的部分是缺二事實上是他的學生或是新北市的人數是非常多的是 跟委員報告按照原來編制的標準一個班大概不能超過29人小學國中是30人就台北實際的狀況每一個班會不一樣有些班級可能18人有些可能到滿29人那這個數字我們後續會給您大概先下班前我們把台北市問一下\n那委員剛才講的那個台北市個別的因素我們也有注意到我們也會一起來處理 謝謝好 謝謝那另外我們看到今年已經現在已經到一百一十四學年度了吧那我們看到的是從你們報告當中得知到國小的是八點八五那國中是六點二五高中是六趴那你們是標準是說達到八趴是大概是合理的情況那像這樣的情況之下目前連開學還不到一個月請問這個缺額怎麼樣處理法\n跟委員報告這不是這個代理代課這個控制在8%以下它這是今年的中小學教師的增試那不足額大概有8.8%比如說以國中的6.25%大概就是有125個人因為它總共這一個\n部主委我跟您報告一下在我們的報告第二頁有寫到像小學為例他要考3108人那麼他考了大概2833人所以他有815人大概有8.85錄取率\n這個是開學出來的比例所以他這個不是代理律不是代理老師現在委員這個都是正式老師好 是正式老師那事實上還是有缺額吧因為我現在都在看下面這張可以知道以今年在6月17號所看到的台北市的 不過你教育部剛剛部長有說這部分他們有特別的一些因素存在的不過因為一般的這個代理教師這部分他還是有相當一個比例尤其是在偏遠學校嘛 對吧\n是那偏遠的學校現在帶領教師的這個比例是多少跟委員報告台北\n教師這一個叫做脫北的這一個名詞我現在問的是我剛才有說特殊的因素我知道但是這部分不一樣因為早期台北市因為當然他的生活機能部長請你尊重我剛才講的這個事情我知道因為我看到報紙有說特別針對偏遠教師的目前的代理教師的比例是多少\n台北市基本上是沒有偏遠地區的我不是說台北市 我說全國的跟委員報告一下如果講代理率的話台灣的偏鄉地區代理率大概達到25%A班地區大概15%代理率對 所以這個地方的話那現在馬上要開選 那怎麼個處理法\n有一些具體的這個技術面的事情跟您報告一下第一點我們會周周控管來協助地方政府第二點正式老師那個缺額在前面七月底以前他們考過之後會放到代理這邊所以我們現在從現在開始在考代理老師我們會周周來協助22縣市\n好 希望我們的尤其是偏向學校的老師他們在現場能夠真的是幫助到我們的學生不然的話這是已經要開學沒辦法處理的那我們繼續往下看喔包括你們的報告當中也呈現到說之前還沒看到你們報告之前我們知道在儲備教師這部分有的是目前有逾7萬人不過因為你們後來已經昨天的報告當中最新呈現出來說如果以活躍的這個儲備教師來看的話呢是有2萬7千人\n那應徵率五年內是八成那報考是八成就再去做這個徵試的部分三年內報考是七成五可是為什麼你越來越近的時間內反而是他的去報考徵試的部分是人數少的而且我們再看看旁邊的這邊大家也看到遠見雜誌的這個內容當中就算是擔任正式教師之後呢他\n他的這個比例從69.1下滑到57.5呢他繼續要留下來這部分他甚至不願意要進入到教室這些部分而且呢這些部分呢就會造成的是因為老師出去之後後來導致代理教室就越來越進去到裡面去那請問部長是說您知道說為什麼放棄這個教室正式教室他會放棄這樣的一個教室嗎\n跟委員報告其實我們這些年來在世代交替退休的人數是多的那再加上少子化所以各縣市基本上有比較多的控留的比例來聘待老師可是我也跟委員報告我們這三年來為什麼會各縣市開始把這一個正式的確有出來是因為我們一一年政策做了一些\n要求在配合一般補助一般地方的補助款裡邊我們把各地方的教師的這個專任營養的控管比例納入我們獎補助的一個指標所以各縣市就開始把\n這個部分我都知道 但是我先跟秀一下這個資料齁這個昨天在偏遠教師的這邊呈現出來有民間團體呈現出來 大家看一下這個資料齁全職的外送員他的薪資在平常狀況之下的時候是大概4萬到8萬高的話還可以到8萬到這個地方正式的教師如果新進的部分啦他事實上是3萬2到3萬5那國小的這個部分的新進教師呢是到達大概碩士的大概4萬如果你就這個地方來看的話\n教師他如果獲得到一個不是很好的待遇的情況之下包括沒有尊重的話這就是一個原因這部分那第二個我們再看一下的時候是有一個地方的教師團體跟我們的反應的時候是呈現出來是目前在高級中等以下學校教師的解併跟不續併跟停併跟諮詢辦法當中很清楚的呈現到說如果是因為在校園裡面有\n出現到說有疑似到被害對這個學生部分有對這個學習權、受教權或身體自主權等等的這個人格氾濫權有影響的時候呢就進入到校事會議而校事會議重要是要在包括連媒體報導的部分都呈現出來就是他就進到調查的這個而且調查的內容的過程非常繁瑣這個情況之下\n請問校長 請問部長齁 一個校育的團體 教育的這個機構裡面用的是直接進入到所謂的用調查的方式 而不是回歸到教育的本質因為部長你之前也是大學的校長 教授等等的這個部分的話 你面對這種情況之下 尤其這是一個辦法是在屬於行政命令的部分 對這個部分有這樣的意見呈現而且是很多的教師團體 全教總都出現這個意見的 你們有什麼看法\n各位報告校士法大概校士的規定是在教師法下的一個授權那從去年開始實施確實在這一年裡邊我們也發現了不少的問題那當然我們國教署也在收集這些問題簡單來講我們目前的學校學生或者老師師生的一些行為上的一個這個糾正或者這個懲處他本來是學校有\n教評會過去都是在教評會現在多了一個校事會校事會那校事會裡面就會涉及到這一個解聘這一個停聘不續聘等等的這些很複雜的問題就是說我們包含學生的一些衝突等等的一個處理所以我們現在就在想因為進入到校事會議目前都是法令規範都是校外的學者專家或者領域專家來針對學校的視線來做這一個調查\n那學校裡面會造成一些困擾就是說因為他們可能有專業但是對學校的現況並不是那麼清楚了解所以我們現在在研議收集全國的一個資料希望是不是能夠至少教師的代表家長的代表他了解這個學校實際的運作然後再加上\n這個一半以上的這些校外委員 學者專家 領域專家來共同來比較有一個好的一個討論能夠希望不要造成這個被冤枉但是如果真的不良老師我們當然希望他退場但是也不希望因為這樣造成校長的教育所以我想簡單一句是說你們事實上在定期在做檢討事實上準備在做了那大概是多久時間呢\n大概是不是有大概在今年的大概十月左右年底之前我想我們會有一個訂入出來年底之前是好 謝謝好 那這個部分我剛才也提到說這個是不是沒有那兩個東西其實最重要的這個辛酸當你教師沒辦法去得到一個認同原來是一個置業的事情而不是一個職業卻當中這個效果其實是很遺憾的然後另外的部分我們再去往下看簡單的部分我還是必須要提供一個議題這在於說\n這個部分在於因為在前幾個禮拜之前出現到一個問題是在於說你們的一個師特別針對在偏鄉的尤其在自然教師這部分的時候尤其在STEM的這個情況那他提出來的部分就是說對於這個專業教師呢\n因為這個少那這邊部分引進到所謂高中教師的有這個相關的辦法所以說針對這些老師在自然科學的部分讓用免休職前學分跟免考試跟免實習的狀況的這個條件來讓大家支援可是這個支援的部分是在國小的部分那這邊部分國教署這邊有沒有什麼回應因為大家要知道\n這個如果是有專技的這些部分的他是在高中沒有問題可是你們卻是用這個高中的這個辦法來去引用到國小的這樣的師資的自然科學的部分其實教也是對於學對教師是非常大的一個一個一個一個貶義啊因為老師他必須修了很多的這個學分包括是怎麼樣去對待學生怎麼樣心理的輔導等等的沒有如果沒有這些部分的話那直接到國小的時候他可能會造成這一種隔閡那請問部長您的看法\n跟委員報告謝謝委員讓我有補充說明的機會事實上我們的想法是因為現在高職類科特別在高職類科有許多的理工的這些專業的科目學科的專業的科目找不到老師\n那我們就希望說有許多大學退場的或者大學的一些科技大學的老師他退學校可能退場但是他非常優秀他能夠轉任到高職或者產業都在R&D裡邊或者他在對產業他都是有Master degree以上的他們有願意轉任因為以我們現在來講業師\n他本來就沒有任何專業的事但是我們這裡邊還有6年的這個工作的機會有一些條件的限制他能夠真正的專業能夠滿足又能夠有產業豐富的經驗能夠協助我們高職我想訊息上有一些報導上有一些落差他涉及包括還有小學的部分如果只是在高職這部分我們優先要考量的是高中職的老師\n在STEM的這個領域裡邊的老師的這個來源所以你指中的高職就對了是吧我目前是鎖定在高中好 如果這樣子的話就沒問題我們再做一個澄清 謝謝那這一部分配合在我們的一個有一些選服的部分我就簡單的詢問一下在這部分對於在私校的這個學雜費的部分那這部分因為它有大概\n十幾年這個都沒有漲價了那你們對這部分有沒有在思效的部分因為思效的還是有多的是自己的一個學費所收入那你們這部分有沒有什麼看法放寬他的一個\n主席大概就一分鐘多就結束了謝謝報告委員我們現在針對學雜費其實有一定的機制針對114年到116年其實有編列特別預算要來協助學校他來申請特別預算的部分相關的學校就要承諾在114學年度到116學年度不要去調漲學雜費不調漲學雜費但是我們會用特別預算來挹注學校的校務經營\n所以還是有可能的 是不是就是說用救愛部對學校的這種補助款的方式去抑制他們的經營是好 張主任高中的部分的學費是我們來協助但是雜費是由各主管機關來訂定\nOK 好 謝謝市長的一個部分好 那我目前的好 那就是現在做了一個這樣子一個說明就謝謝 謝謝這個支部 交易部的這個相關的主事部長還有 那好 謝謝主席給我這麼多時間 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.345 --> 00:10.708\n我請教育部正部長請正部長備質詢謝謝委員好部長好在葉秉成次長的這件事情上面他因為在五月中有請假請問一下在這個調查委員會教育部總共開了幾次到現在\n\n00:32.759 --> 00:47.875\n要查委員會就是開會開了幾次跟委員報告因為這一個我們這一個當這一個選投訴的時候我們在5月2323號的時候就教育部的一個性評委員會就成立然後就召開確認\n\n00:49.757 --> 01:10.073\n講次數我現在重點是在次數就這個案子5月235月23因為業次長他是在4月的時候嘛那5月23就成立了這個教育的而且有開會嗎有開會開會第一次開會然後專案小組在5月26號就正式成立所以業次長也因為專案小組成立因為\n\n01:11.074 --> 01:20.262\n確立要調查成立的專案小組然後這委員會很快的委請了這些這個領域的這個學術專家那最近的那一次結果是什麼這一個對不起因為整個還是在專案小組的一個調查裡邊我想我們尊重調查小組的一個會議在還調查期間我事實上我也在討論有關業比業資上應該你知道應該知道幾次會議對吧\n\n01:38.201 --> 01:52.576\n幾次會議對不起我沒有辦法回答委員也許我事後可以幾次會議當然是可以因為報紙上都有講出來在7月28號的時候其實都已經有召開一次會議那是另外那是初步的一個大會的一個會議但是大會會議對專案小組的一個調查仍有一些\n\n01:57.621 --> 02:14.582\n這一個希望在年輕了所以才會再延長那我要跟委員報告因為涉及到我們葉市長的這個職務跟身分的關係教育部包含我所有的教育部的代表我們全部都是迴避了所以我們基本上我們是不曉得這個整個後來的一個\n\n02:17.185 --> 02:30.392\n因為記得你們還是主責的部分啦當然說這該開幾次會議應該要了解如果到目前我聽的資料除了8月23號到7月28號之後看起來就只有兩次期初跟7月28號就只有開兩次會那目前說到8月20號我們現在要講的是這件事情跟跟我們的教師的士氣是會有相關的因為如果在\n\n02:42.776 --> 03:02.829\n兩個七十二天的時間之內只開頭第一次跟第二次會議之後越來預計8月22號再開個最後結案會議而且是在大罷免之前所以在第二次的罷免之前的時候那這樣子變成說產生一個效果是半小不半大這都對我們的基層的老師的士氣可能很大的影響我們就先到這邊為止我要跟委員報告外面有許多的猜測這都是不真實的\n\n03:08.089 --> 03:25.480\n因為就我個人來講我希望有關陳儒剛才主席也特別關注到我們總是希望這個事情到底是怎麼樣越早結束越好但是專案小組在整個查證的過程裡面因為涉及到當事人我們希望配合當事人還有許多相關利害關係人\n\n03:26.220 --> 03:31.744\n在第一個月我原來希望一個月就結束但是後來專案小組在整個查證的資料過程裡面他們認為必須要到兩個月好那我們就等待希望是到時候給全國教師的一個印象是休育部是應該辦大也要辦小而且合理的辦\n\n03:49.356 --> 03:59.161\n我想這我們一定會遵照法令上來做的這也是質評論這也是我的痛我必須要講我希望他趕快請住不好意思麻煩讓委員講完我們現在回到的是今天的一個主持那因為我本身是個大學教師所以也特別正視到對教師這部分的內容我們看一下\n\n04:13.843 --> 04:27.247\n在你們的報告當中已經呈現出來說111年到114年的當中呢國高中的這個老師的缺額已經有改善了但是我想要問的是說在113年剛剛過去的這個113年一般的國中小學的師生比是多少2.0一般的是兩個\n\n04:50.421 --> 05:04.572\n好那我請問一下齁那在這個情況之下那台北市的我說的師生比齁就在於說那一個學一個老師到底照顧多少的學生尤其在台北市像另外再找一個一個高雄市來講的話有沒有這下的數據有嗎\n\n05:07.944 --> 05:28.095\n因為從教師團體所得到的訊息台北市的部分是缺二事實上是他的學生或是新北市的人數是非常多的是跟委員報告按照原來編制的標準一個班大概不能超過29人小學國中是30人就台北實際的狀況每一個班會不一樣有些班級可能18人有些可能到滿29人那這個數字我們後續會給您大概先下班前我們把台北市問一下\n\n05:34.919 --> 05:56.369\n那委員剛才講的那個台北市個別的因素我們也有注意到我們也會一起來處理謝謝好謝謝那另外我們看到今年已經現在已經到一百一十四學年度了吧那我們看到的是從你們報告當中得知到國小的是八點八五那國中是六點二五高中是六趴那你們是標準是說達到八趴是大概是合理的情況那像這樣的情況之下目前連開學還不到一個月請問這個缺額怎麼樣處理法\n\n06:00.425 --> 06:16.237\n跟委員報告這不是這個代理代課這個控制在8%以下它這是今年的中小學教師的增試那不足額大概有8.8%比如說以國中的6.25%大概就是有125個人因為它總共這一個\n\n06:25.263 --> 06:32.068\n部主委我跟您報告一下在我們的報告第二頁有寫到像小學為例他要考3108人那麼他考了大概2833人所以他有815人大概有8.85錄取率\n\n06:43.862 --> 07:11.861\n這個是開學出來的比例所以他這個不是代理律不是代理老師現在委員這個都是正式老師好是正式老師那事實上還是有缺額吧因為我現在都在看下面這張可以知道以今年在6月17號所看到的台北市的不過你教育部剛剛部長有說這部分他們有特別的一些因素存在的不過因為一般的這個代理教師這部分他還是有相當一個比例尤其是在偏遠學校嘛對吧\n\n07:13.144 --> 07:18.802\n是那偏遠的學校現在帶領教師的這個比例是多少跟委員報告台北\n\n07:20.014 --> 07:41.980\n教師這一個叫做脫北的這一個名詞我現在問的是我剛才有說特殊的因素我知道但是這部分不一樣因為早期台北市因為當然他的生活機能部長請你尊重我剛才講的這個事情我知道因為我看到報紙有說特別針對偏遠教師的目前的代理教師的比例是多少\n\n07:42.878 --> 08:00.449\n台北市基本上是沒有偏遠地區的我不是說台北市我說全國的跟委員報告一下如果講代理率的話台灣的偏鄉地區代理率大概達到25%A班地區大概15%代理率對所以這個地方的話那現在馬上要開選那怎麼個處理法\n\n08:04.184 --> 08:20.336\n有一些具體的這個技術面的事情跟您報告一下第一點我們會周周控管來協助地方政府第二點正式老師那個缺額在前面七月底以前他們考過之後會放到代理這邊所以我們現在從現在開始在考代理老師我們會周周來協助22縣市\n\n08:22.157 --> 08:30.579\n好希望我們的尤其是偏向學校的老師他們在現場能夠真的是幫助到我們的學生不然的話這是已經要開學沒辦法處理的那我們繼續往下看喔包括你們的報告當中也呈現到說之前還沒看到你們報告之前我們知道在儲備教師這部分有的是目前有逾7萬人不過因為你們後來已經昨天的報告當中最新呈現出來說如果以活躍的這個儲備教師來看的話呢是有2萬7千人\n\n08:51.243 --> 09:08.136\n那應徵率五年內是八成那報考是八成就再去做這個徵試的部分三年內報考是七成五可是為什麼你越來越近的時間內反而是他的去報考徵試的部分是人數少的而且我們再看看旁邊的這邊大家也看到遠見雜誌的這個內容當中就算是擔任正式教師之後呢他\n\n09:12.399 --> 09:20.384\n他的這個比例從69.1下滑到57.5呢他繼續要留下來這部分他甚至不願意要進入到教室這些部分而且呢這些部分呢就會造成的是因為老師出去之後後來導致代理教室就越來越進去到裡面去那請問部長是說您知道說為什麼放棄這個教室正式教室他會放棄這樣的一個教室嗎\n\n09:38.357 --> 10:02.304\n跟委員報告其實我們這些年來在世代交替退休的人數是多的那再加上少子化所以各縣市基本上有比較多的控留的比例來聘待老師可是我也跟委員報告我們這三年來為什麼會各縣市開始把這一個正式的確有出來是因為我們一一年政策做了一些\n\n10:03.784 --> 10:18.957\n要求在配合一般補助一般地方的補助款裡邊我們把各地方的教師的這個專任營養的控管比例納入我們獎補助的一個指標所以各縣市就開始把\n\n10:19.977 --> 10:41.025\n這個部分我都知道但是我先跟秀一下這個資料齁這個昨天在偏遠教師的這邊呈現出來有民間團體呈現出來大家看一下這個資料齁全職的外送員他的薪資在平常狀況之下的時候是大概4萬到8萬高的話還可以到8萬到這個地方正式的教師如果新進的部分啦他事實上是3萬2到3萬5那國小的這個部分的新進教師呢是到達大概碩士的大概4萬如果你就這個地方來看的話\n\n10:49.188 --> 11:02.078\n教師他如果獲得到一個不是很好的待遇的情況之下包括沒有尊重的話這就是一個原因這部分那第二個我們再看一下的時候是有一個地方的教師團體跟我們的反應的時候是呈現出來是目前在高級中等以下學校教師的解併跟不續併跟停併跟諮詢辦法當中很清楚的呈現到說如果是因為在校園裡面有\n\n11:14.248 --> 11:20.313\n出現到說有疑似到被害對這個學生部分有對這個學習權、受教權或身體自主權等等的這個人格氾濫權有影響的時候呢就進入到校事會議而校事會議重要是要在包括連媒體報導的部分都呈現出來就是他就進到調查的這個而且調查的內容的過程非常繁瑣這個情況之下\n\n11:35.026 --> 11:42.408\n請問校長請問部長齁一個校育的團體教育的這個機構裡面用的是直接進入到所謂的用調查的方式而不是回歸到教育的本質因為部長你之前也是大學的校長教授等等的這個部分的話你面對這種情況之下尤其這是一個辦法是在屬於行政命令的部分對這個部分有這樣的意見呈現而且是很多的教師團體全教總都出現這個意見的你們有什麼看法\n\n12:03.302 --> 12:30.805\n各位報告校士法大概校士的規定是在教師法下的一個授權那從去年開始實施確實在這一年裡邊我們也發現了不少的問題那當然我們國教署也在收集這些問題簡單來講我們目前的學校學生或者老師師生的一些行為上的一個這個糾正或者這個懲處他本來是學校有\n\n12:31.960 --> 12:56.489\n教評會過去都是在教評會現在多了一個校事會校事會那校事會裡面就會涉及到這一個解聘這一個停聘不續聘等等的這些很複雜的問題就是說我們包含學生的一些衝突等等的一個處理所以我們現在就在想因為進入到校事會議目前都是法令規範都是校外的學者專家或者領域專家來針對學校的視線來做這一個調查\n\n13:01.371 --> 13:22.648\n那學校裡面會造成一些困擾就是說因為他們可能有專業但是對學校的現況並不是那麼清楚了解所以我們現在在研議收集全國的一個資料希望是不是能夠至少教師的代表家長的代表他了解這個學校實際的運作然後再加上\n\n13:23.368 --> 13:47.585\n這個一半以上的這些校外委員學者專家領域專家來共同來比較有一個好的一個討論能夠希望不要造成這個被冤枉但是如果真的不良老師我們當然希望他退場但是也不希望因為這樣造成校長的教育所以我想簡單一句是說你們事實上在定期在做檢討事實上準備在做了那大概是多久時間呢\n\n13:48.866 --> 14:16.567\n大概是不是有大概在今年的大概十月左右年底之前我想我們會有一個訂入出來年底之前是好謝謝好那這個部分我剛才也提到說這個是不是沒有那兩個東西其實最重要的這個辛酸當你教師沒辦法去得到一個認同原來是一個置業的事情而不是一個職業卻當中這個效果其實是很遺憾的然後另外的部分我們再去往下看簡單的部分我還是必須要提供一個議題這在於說\n\n14:22.903 --> 14:41.038\n這個部分在於因為在前幾個禮拜之前出現到一個問題是在於說你們的一個師特別針對在偏鄉的尤其在自然教師這部分的時候尤其在STEM的這個情況那他提出來的部分就是說對於這個專業教師呢\n\n14:43.320 --> 14:48.042\n因為這個少那這邊部分引進到所謂高中教師的有這個相關的辦法所以說針對這些老師在自然科學的部分讓用免休職前學分跟免考試跟免實習的狀況的這個條件來讓大家支援可是這個支援的部分是在國小的部分那這邊部分國教署這邊有沒有什麼回應因為大家要知道\n\n15:08.970 --> 15:35.090\n這個如果是有專技的這些部分的他是在高中沒有問題可是你們卻是用這個高中的這個辦法來去引用到國小的這樣的師資的自然科學的部分其實教也是對於學對教師是非常大的一個一個一個一個貶義啊因為老師他必須修了很多的這個學分包括是怎麼樣去對待學生怎麼樣心理的輔導等等的沒有如果沒有這些部分的話那直接到國小的時候他可能會造成這一種隔閡那請問部長您的看法\n\n15:38.952 --> 15:54.591\n跟委員報告謝謝委員讓我有補充說明的機會事實上我們的想法是因為現在高職類科特別在高職類科有許多的理工的這些專業的科目學科的專業的科目找不到老師\n\n15:55.552 --> 16:17.802\n那我們就希望說有許多大學退場的或者大學的一些科技大學的老師他退學校可能退場但是他非常優秀他能夠轉任到高職或者產業都在R&D裡邊或者他在對產業他都是有Masterdegree以上的他們有願意轉任因為以我們現在來講業師\n\n16:20.123 --> 16:23.926\n他本來就沒有任何專業的事但是我們這裡邊還有6年的這個工作的機會有一些條件的限制他能夠真正的專業能夠滿足又能夠有產業豐富的經驗能夠協助我們高職我想訊息上有一些報導上有一些落差他涉及包括還有小學的部分如果只是在高職這部分我們優先要考量的是高中職的老師\n\n16:50.203 --> 17:11.838\n在STEM的這個領域裡邊的老師的這個來源所以你指中的高職就對了是吧我目前是鎖定在高中好如果這樣子的話就沒問題我們再做一個澄清謝謝那這一部分配合在我們的一個有一些選服的部分我就簡單的詢問一下在這部分對於在私校的這個學雜費的部分那這部分因為它有大概\n\n17:12.698 --> 17:21.704\n十幾年這個都沒有漲價了那你們對這部分有沒有在思效的部分因為思效的還是有多的是自己的一個學費所收入那你們這部分有沒有什麼看法放寬他的一個\n\n17:25.975 --> 17:51.197\n主席大概就一分鐘多就結束了謝謝報告委員我們現在針對學雜費其實有一定的機制針對114年到116年其實有編列特別預算要來協助學校他來申請特別預算的部分相關的學校就要承諾在114學年度到116學年度不要去調漲學雜費不調漲學雜費但是我們會用特別預算來挹注學校的校務經營\n\n17:52.615 --> 18:04.048\n所以還是有可能的是不是就是說用救愛部對學校的這種補助款的方式去抑制他們的經營是好張主任高中的部分的學費是我們來協助但是雜費是由各主管機關來訂定\n\n18:05.578 --> 18:18.230\nOK好謝謝市長的一個部分好那我目前的好那就是現在做了一個這樣子一個說明就謝謝謝謝這個支部交易部的這個相關的主事部長還有那好謝謝主席給我這麼多時間謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.345,"end":10.708,"text":"我請教育部正部長請正部長備質詢 謝謝委員好部長好在葉秉成次長的這件事情上面他因為在五月中有請假請問一下在這個調查委員會教育部總共開了幾次到現在"},{"start":32.759,"end":47.875,"text":"要查委員會就是開會開了幾次跟委員報告因為這一個我們這一個當這一個選投訴的時候我們在5月2323號的時候就教育部的一個性評委員會就成立然後就召開確認"},{"start":49.757,"end":70.073,"text":"講次數我現在重點是在次數就這個案子5月235月23因為業次長他是在4月的時候嘛那5月23就成立了這個教育的而且有開會嗎有開會開會第一次開會然後專案小組在5月26號就正式成立所以業次長也因為專案小組成立因為"},{"start":71.074,"end":80.262,"text":"確立要調查成立的專案小組然後這委員會很快的委請了這些這個領域的這個學術專家那最近的那一次結果是什麼這一個對不起因為整個還是在專案小組的一個調查裡邊我想我們尊重調查小組的一個會議在還調查期間我事實上我也在討論有關業比 業資上應該你知道應該知道幾次會議對吧"},{"start":98.201,"end":112.576,"text":"幾次會議對不起我沒有辦法回答委員也許我事後可以幾次會議當然是可以因為報紙上都有講出來在7月28號的時候其實都已經有召開一次會議那是另外那是初步的一個大會的一個會議但是大會會議對專案小組的一個調查仍有一些"},{"start":117.621,"end":134.582,"text":"這一個希望在年輕了所以才會再延長那我要跟委員報告因為涉及到我們葉市長的這個職務跟身分的關係教育部包含我所有的教育部的代表我們全部都是迴避了所以我們基本上我們是不曉得這個整個後來的一個"},{"start":137.185,"end":150.392,"text":"因為記得你們還是主責的部分啦當然說這該開幾次會議應該要了解如果到目前我聽的資料除了8月23號到7月28號之後看起來就只有兩次期初跟7月28號就只有開兩次會那目前說到8月20號我們現在要講的是這件事情跟跟我們的教師的士氣是會有相關的因為如果在"},{"start":162.776,"end":182.829,"text":"兩個七十二天的時間之內只開頭第一次跟第二次會議之後越來預計8月22號再開個最後結案會議而且是在大罷免之前所以在第二次的罷免之前的時候那這樣子變成說產生一個效果是半小不半大這都對我們的基層的老師的士氣可能很大的影響我們就先到這邊為止我要跟委員報告外面有許多的猜測這都是不真實的"},{"start":188.089,"end":205.48,"text":"因為就我個人來講我希望有關陳儒剛才主席也特別關注到我們總是希望這個事情到底是怎麼樣越早結束越好但是專案小組在整個查證的過程裡面因為涉及到當事人我們希望配合當事人還有許多相關利害關係人"},{"start":206.22,"end":211.744,"text":"在第一個月我原來希望一個月就結束但是後來專案小組在整個查證的資料過程裡面他們認為必須要到兩個月好那我們就等待希望是到時候給全國教師的一個印象是休育部是應該辦大也要辦小而且合理的辦"},{"start":229.356,"end":239.161,"text":"我想這我們一定會遵照法令上來做的這也是 質評論這也是我的痛我必須要講 我希望他趕快 請住不好意思 麻煩讓委員講完我們現在回到的是今天的一個主持那因為我本身是個大學教師所以也特別正視到對教師這部分的內容我們看一下"},{"start":253.843,"end":267.247,"text":"在你們的報告當中已經呈現出來說111年到114年的當中呢國高中的這個老師的缺額已經有改善了但是我想要問的是說在113年剛剛過去的這個113年一般的國中小學的師生比是多少2.0一般的是兩個"},{"start":290.421,"end":304.572,"text":"好那我請問一下齁那在這個情況之下那台北市的我說的師生比齁就在於說那一個學一個老師到底照顧多少的學生尤其在台北市像另外再找一個一個高雄市來講的話有沒有這下的數據有嗎"},{"start":307.944,"end":328.095,"text":"因為從教師團體所得到的訊息台北市的部分是缺二事實上是他的學生或是新北市的人數是非常多的是 跟委員報告按照原來編制的標準一個班大概不能超過29人小學國中是30人就台北實際的狀況每一個班會不一樣有些班級可能18人有些可能到滿29人那這個數字我們後續會給您大概先下班前我們把台北市問一下"},{"start":334.919,"end":356.369,"text":"那委員剛才講的那個台北市個別的因素我們也有注意到我們也會一起來處理 謝謝好 謝謝那另外我們看到今年已經現在已經到一百一十四學年度了吧那我們看到的是從你們報告當中得知到國小的是八點八五那國中是六點二五高中是六趴那你們是標準是說達到八趴是大概是合理的情況那像這樣的情況之下目前連開學還不到一個月請問這個缺額怎麼樣處理法"},{"start":360.425,"end":376.237,"text":"跟委員報告這不是這個代理代課這個控制在8%以下它這是今年的中小學教師的增試那不足額大概有8.8%比如說以國中的6.25%大概就是有125個人因為它總共這一個"},{"start":385.263,"end":392.068,"text":"部主委我跟您報告一下在我們的報告第二頁有寫到像小學為例他要考3108人那麼他考了大概2833人所以他有815人大概有8.85錄取率"},{"start":403.862,"end":431.861,"text":"這個是開學出來的比例所以他這個不是代理律不是代理老師現在委員這個都是正式老師好 是正式老師那事實上還是有缺額吧因為我現在都在看下面這張可以知道以今年在6月17號所看到的台北市的 不過你教育部剛剛部長有說這部分他們有特別的一些因素存在的不過因為一般的這個代理教師這部分他還是有相當一個比例尤其是在偏遠學校嘛 對吧"},{"start":433.144,"end":438.802,"text":"是那偏遠的學校現在帶領教師的這個比例是多少跟委員報告台北"},{"start":440.014,"end":461.98,"text":"教師這一個叫做脫北的這一個名詞我現在問的是我剛才有說特殊的因素我知道但是這部分不一樣因為早期台北市因為當然他的生活機能部長請你尊重我剛才講的這個事情我知道因為我看到報紙有說特別針對偏遠教師的目前的代理教師的比例是多少"},{"start":462.878,"end":480.449,"text":"台北市基本上是沒有偏遠地區的我不是說台北市 我說全國的跟委員報告一下如果講代理率的話台灣的偏鄉地區代理率大概達到25%A班地區大概15%代理率對 所以這個地方的話那現在馬上要開選 那怎麼個處理法"},{"start":484.184,"end":500.336,"text":"有一些具體的這個技術面的事情跟您報告一下第一點我們會周周控管來協助地方政府第二點正式老師那個缺額在前面七月底以前他們考過之後會放到代理這邊所以我們現在從現在開始在考代理老師我們會周周來協助22縣市"},{"start":502.157,"end":510.579,"text":"好 希望我們的尤其是偏向學校的老師他們在現場能夠真的是幫助到我們的學生不然的話這是已經要開學沒辦法處理的那我們繼續往下看喔包括你們的報告當中也呈現到說之前還沒看到你們報告之前我們知道在儲備教師這部分有的是目前有逾7萬人不過因為你們後來已經昨天的報告當中最新呈現出來說如果以活躍的這個儲備教師來看的話呢是有2萬7千人"},{"start":531.243,"end":548.136,"text":"那應徵率五年內是八成那報考是八成就再去做這個徵試的部分三年內報考是七成五可是為什麼你越來越近的時間內反而是他的去報考徵試的部分是人數少的而且我們再看看旁邊的這邊大家也看到遠見雜誌的這個內容當中就算是擔任正式教師之後呢他"},{"start":552.399,"end":560.384,"text":"他的這個比例從69.1下滑到57.5呢他繼續要留下來這部分他甚至不願意要進入到教室這些部分而且呢這些部分呢就會造成的是因為老師出去之後後來導致代理教室就越來越進去到裡面去那請問部長是說您知道說為什麼放棄這個教室正式教室他會放棄這樣的一個教室嗎"},{"start":578.357,"end":602.304,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們這些年來在世代交替退休的人數是多的那再加上少子化所以各縣市基本上有比較多的控留的比例來聘待老師可是我也跟委員報告我們這三年來為什麼會各縣市開始把這一個正式的確有出來是因為我們一一年政策做了一些"},{"start":603.784,"end":618.957,"text":"要求在配合一般補助一般地方的補助款裡邊我們把各地方的教師的這個專任營養的控管比例納入我們獎補助的一個指標所以各縣市就開始把"},{"start":619.977,"end":641.025,"text":"這個部分我都知道 但是我先跟秀一下這個資料齁這個昨天在偏遠教師的這邊呈現出來有民間團體呈現出來 大家看一下這個資料齁全職的外送員他的薪資在平常狀況之下的時候是大概4萬到8萬高的話還可以到8萬到這個地方正式的教師如果新進的部分啦他事實上是3萬2到3萬5那國小的這個部分的新進教師呢是到達大概碩士的大概4萬如果你就這個地方來看的話"},{"start":649.188,"end":662.078,"text":"教師他如果獲得到一個不是很好的待遇的情況之下包括沒有尊重的話這就是一個原因這部分那第二個我們再看一下的時候是有一個地方的教師團體跟我們的反應的時候是呈現出來是目前在高級中等以下學校教師的解併跟不續併跟停併跟諮詢辦法當中很清楚的呈現到說如果是因為在校園裡面有"},{"start":674.248,"end":680.313,"text":"出現到說有疑似到被害對這個學生部分有對這個學習權、受教權或身體自主權等等的這個人格氾濫權有影響的時候呢就進入到校事會議而校事會議重要是要在包括連媒體報導的部分都呈現出來就是他就進到調查的這個而且調查的內容的過程非常繁瑣這個情況之下"},{"start":695.026,"end":702.408,"text":"請問校長 請問部長齁 一個校育的團體 教育的這個機構裡面用的是直接進入到所謂的用調查的方式 而不是回歸到教育的本質因為部長你之前也是大學的校長 教授等等的這個部分的話 你面對這種情況之下 尤其這是一個辦法是在屬於行政命令的部分 對這個部分有這樣的意見呈現而且是很多的教師團體 全教總都出現這個意見的 你們有什麼看法"},{"start":723.302,"end":750.805,"text":"各位報告校士法大概校士的規定是在教師法下的一個授權那從去年開始實施確實在這一年裡邊我們也發現了不少的問題那當然我們國教署也在收集這些問題簡單來講我們目前的學校學生或者老師師生的一些行為上的一個這個糾正或者這個懲處他本來是學校有"},{"start":751.96,"end":776.489,"text":"教評會過去都是在教評會現在多了一個校事會校事會那校事會裡面就會涉及到這一個解聘這一個停聘不續聘等等的這些很複雜的問題就是說我們包含學生的一些衝突等等的一個處理所以我們現在就在想因為進入到校事會議目前都是法令規範都是校外的學者專家或者領域專家來針對學校的視線來做這一個調查"},{"start":781.371,"end":802.648,"text":"那學校裡面會造成一些困擾就是說因為他們可能有專業但是對學校的現況並不是那麼清楚了解所以我們現在在研議收集全國的一個資料希望是不是能夠至少教師的代表家長的代表他了解這個學校實際的運作然後再加上"},{"start":803.368,"end":827.585,"text":"這個一半以上的這些校外委員 學者專家 領域專家來共同來比較有一個好的一個討論能夠希望不要造成這個被冤枉但是如果真的不良老師我們當然希望他退場但是也不希望因為這樣造成校長的教育所以我想簡單一句是說你們事實上在定期在做檢討事實上準備在做了那大概是多久時間呢"},{"start":828.866,"end":856.567,"text":"大概是不是有大概在今年的大概十月左右年底之前我想我們會有一個訂入出來年底之前是好 謝謝好 那這個部分我剛才也提到說這個是不是沒有那兩個東西其實最重要的這個辛酸當你教師沒辦法去得到一個認同原來是一個置業的事情而不是一個職業卻當中這個效果其實是很遺憾的然後另外的部分我們再去往下看簡單的部分我還是必須要提供一個議題這在於說"},{"start":862.903,"end":881.038,"text":"這個部分在於因為在前幾個禮拜之前出現到一個問題是在於說你們的一個師特別針對在偏鄉的尤其在自然教師這部分的時候尤其在STEM的這個情況那他提出來的部分就是說對於這個專業教師呢"},{"start":883.32,"end":888.042,"text":"因為這個少那這邊部分引進到所謂高中教師的有這個相關的辦法所以說針對這些老師在自然科學的部分讓用免休職前學分跟免考試跟免實習的狀況的這個條件來讓大家支援可是這個支援的部分是在國小的部分那這邊部分國教署這邊有沒有什麼回應因為大家要知道"},{"start":908.97,"end":935.09,"text":"這個如果是有專技的這些部分的他是在高中沒有問題可是你們卻是用這個高中的這個辦法來去引用到國小的這樣的師資的自然科學的部分其實教也是對於學對教師是非常大的一個一個一個一個貶義啊因為老師他必須修了很多的這個學分包括是怎麼樣去對待學生怎麼樣心理的輔導等等的沒有如果沒有這些部分的話那直接到國小的時候他可能會造成這一種隔閡那請問部長您的看法"},{"start":938.952,"end":954.591,"text":"跟委員報告謝謝委員讓我有補充說明的機會事實上我們的想法是因為現在高職類科特別在高職類科有許多的理工的這些專業的科目學科的專業的科目找不到老師"},{"start":955.552,"end":977.802,"text":"那我們就希望說有許多大學退場的或者大學的一些科技大學的老師他退學校可能退場但是他非常優秀他能夠轉任到高職或者產業都在R&D裡邊或者他在對產業他都是有Master degree以上的他們有願意轉任因為以我們現在來講業師"},{"start":980.123,"end":983.926,"text":"他本來就沒有任何專業的事但是我們這裡邊還有6年的這個工作的機會有一些條件的限制他能夠真正的專業能夠滿足又能夠有產業豐富的經驗能夠協助我們高職我想訊息上有一些報導上有一些落差他涉及包括還有小學的部分如果只是在高職這部分我們優先要考量的是高中職的老師"},{"start":1010.203,"end":1031.838,"text":"在STEM的這個領域裡邊的老師的這個來源所以你指中的高職就對了是吧我目前是鎖定在高中好 如果這樣子的話就沒問題我們再做一個澄清 謝謝那這一部分配合在我們的一個有一些選服的部分我就簡單的詢問一下在這部分對於在私校的這個學雜費的部分那這部分因為它有大概"},{"start":1032.698,"end":1041.704,"text":"十幾年這個都沒有漲價了那你們對這部分有沒有在思效的部分因為思效的還是有多的是自己的一個學費所收入那你們這部分有沒有什麼看法放寬他的一個"},{"start":1045.975,"end":1071.197,"text":"主席大概就一分鐘多就結束了謝謝報告委員我們現在針對學雜費其實有一定的機制針對114年到116年其實有編列特別預算要來協助學校他來申請特別預算的部分相關的學校就要承諾在114學年度到116學年度不要去調漲學雜費不調漲學雜費但是我們會用特別預算來挹注學校的校務經營"},{"start":1072.615,"end":1084.048,"text":"所以還是有可能的 是不是就是說用救愛部對學校的這種補助款的方式去抑制他們的經營是好 張主任高中的部分的學費是我們來協助但是雜費是由各主管機關來訂定"},{"start":1085.578,"end":1098.23,"text":"OK 好 謝謝市長的一個部分好 那我目前的好 那就是現在做了一個這樣子一個說明就謝謝 謝謝這個支部 交易部的這個相關的主事部長還有 那好 謝謝主席給我這麼多時間 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":243,"blocks":[["劉委員書彬：（9時51分）有請教育部鄭部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長備質詢，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["劉委員書彬：部長好。葉丙成次長的這件事情，因為他在5月中請假，請問在這個調查委員會，教育部到現在總共開了幾次？"],["鄭部長英耀：調查委員會……"],["劉委員書彬：就是開會開了幾次？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，當這個學生投訴的時候，教育部在5月23日成立性平委員會，然後就召開確認，成立以後……"],["劉委員書彬：講次數，我現在重點是在次數。"],["鄭部長英耀：就這個案子，5月23日，因為葉次長是在4月的時候，5月23日就成立了教育部的……"],["劉委員書彬：最近有開會嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：有開會。"],["劉委員書彬：第幾次？"],["鄭部長英耀：第一次開會，專案小組在5月26日就正式成立，所以葉次長也因為專案小組成立確立要調查，委員會很快地委請了這個領域的學者專家……"],["劉委員書彬：最近的那一次結果是什麼？"],["鄭部長英耀：對不起，因為整個還在專案小組的調查流程，我們尊重調查小組的會議，還在調查期間，事實上，我也在討論有關葉次長……"],["劉委員書彬：可是幾次會議你知道嗎？你應該知道幾次會議，對吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：對不起我沒有辦法回答委員，也許我事後可以回復幾次會議，這當然是可以……"],["劉委員書彬：因為報紙上都已經講出來，在7月28日的時候其實已經有召開一次會議了。"],["鄭部長英耀：那是另外、初步的一個大會會議，但是大會會議對專案小組的調查仍有一些希望再釐清，所以才會再延長。我要跟委員報告，因為涉及到葉次長的職務跟身分關係，教育部包含我、所有的教育部代表，我們全部都迴避了，所以基本上我們不曉得整個後來的……"],["劉委員書彬：好，但是因為你們還是主責，當然該開幾次會議應該要了解，到目前我聽得的資料，除了5月23日到7月28日之後，看起來就只有2次，期初跟7月28日，就只有開2次會，接著是8月22日要開。","我現在要講的是，這件事情會跟教師的士氣相關，因為如果在72天之內，只開第一次跟第二次會議，未來預計8月22日再開個最後結案會議，而且是在第二次的大罷免之前，這樣子會產生一個效果是「辦小不辦大」，這對基層老師的士氣可能有很大的影響，我們就先講到這邊為止。"],["鄭部長英耀：我要跟委員報告，外面有許多的猜測，這都是不真實的，就我個人來講，誠如剛才主席也特別關注到，我們總是希望了解這個事情到底是怎麼樣，越早結束越好，但是專案小組在整個查證的過程裡面，因為涉及到當事人，希望配合當事人，還有許多相關利害關係人的資證……"],["劉委員書彬：沒有，我想重點在於……我們先到此為止……因為你們的時間，在之後的幾個禮拜能不能達到這個效果……"],["鄭部長英耀：在第一個月，我原來希望一個月就結束，但是後來專案小組在整個查證資料過程，他們認為必須要到兩個月……"],["劉委員書彬：好，那我們就等待，希望到時候給全國的教師印象是……"],["鄭部長英耀：那兩個月以後，大會又決議……"],["劉委員書彬：教育部是應該辦大也要辦小……"],["鄭部長英耀：對調查小組的……"],["劉委員書彬：合理的辦！"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們一定會遵照法令來做的，持平而論這也是我的痛。"],["劉委員書彬：今天的主旨是……謝謝教育部部長，部長，請你停止，尊重我的質詢、我的時間。"],["鄭部長英耀：這我必須要講，我希望他趕快……"],["主席：部長，不好意思，麻煩讓委員講完，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：對不起，不好意思。"],["劉委員書彬：我們現在回到今天的主旨，因為我本身是個大學教師，所以也特別針對教師這部分的內容，我們看一下，在你們的報告當中已經呈現出來111年到114年國高中的老師缺額已經有改善，但是我想要問的是，在剛剛過去的這113年，一班的國中小學的師生比是多少？"],["鄭部長英耀：小學是2.0。"],["劉委員書彬：2.0？一班就是兩個……"],["鄭部長英耀：一般師生是1.65，偏鄉是2.0，然後一般國中是2.2，但是偏鄉在六班以下我們是給3為原則。"],["劉委員書彬：好，那我請問一下，在這個情況之下，我說的師生比就在於一個老師到底照顧多少的學生，尤其在臺北市，另外再找高雄市來講，有現在的數據嗎？因為從教師團體所得到的訊息，臺北市是缺額，事實上它的學生或新北市的學生數是非常多的。"],["彭署長富源：是，跟委員報告，按照員額編制的標準，小學一個班大概不能超過29人，國中是30人，就臺北實際的狀況，每一個班會不一樣，有些班級可能18人，有些可能到滿29人，這個數字我們後續會給您，大概今天下班前，我們問一下臺北市。"],["劉委員書彬：好，就這樣。"],["彭署長富源：委員剛才講的那個臺北市個別的因素，我們也有注意到，我們也會一起來處理。"],["劉委員書彬：好，謝謝。另外，我們看到今年已經到114學年度了，從你的報告當中得知未足額錄取佔開缺比率國小是8.85%，國中是6.25%，高中是6%，那你們的標準說達到8%是合理的情況，在這樣的情況之下，距離開學還不到一個月，請問這個缺額怎麼樣處理？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，這不是代理、代課控制在8%以下，這是今年中小學教師的甄試，不足額大概有8.8%，比如國中的6.25%，大概就是有125個人，因為它總共……"],["彭署長富源：跟您報告一下，在我們的報告第二頁有寫到，以小學為例，開缺3,108人，結果錄取了2,833人，所以未足額錄取佔開缺比率大概有8.85%的錄取率。"],["劉委員書彬：這是開缺出來的比率，好，那這部分……"],["彭署長富源：所以這不是代理率，不是代理老師，委員，這些都是正式老師。"],["劉委員書彬：好，是正式老師，那事實上還是有缺額，因為我們現在看下面這張可以知道，以今年6月17號所看到的，臺北市的，剛剛部長有說這部分他們有一些特別的因素存在，不過，因為一般的代理教師還是有相當的比例，尤其是在偏遠學校，對吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["劉委員書彬：那偏遠學校現在的代理教師比例是多少？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，臺北教師「脫北」的名詞……"],["劉委員書彬：我現在問的是……我知道你剛才有說特殊因素，但是這部分不要……"],["鄭部長英耀：因為早期臺北市的生活機能……"],["劉委員書彬：部長，請你尊重我的……我剛才講這個事情我知道，因為我看到報紙有說了，但是我想請問偏遠學校目前代理教師的比例是多少？"],["鄭部長英耀：臺北市基本上是沒有偏遠地區的。"],["劉委員書彬：我不是說臺北市，我是說全國的。"],["彭署長富源：跟委員報告一下，如果講代理率的話，臺灣偏鄉地區代理率大概達到25%，一般地區代理率大概15%。"],["劉委員書彬：對，現在馬上要開學了，那怎麼處理？"],["彭署長富源：有一些具體的技術面的事情跟您報告一下：第一點，我們會週週控管來協助地方政府，第二點，正式老師的缺額在7月底以前他們考過之後，會放到代理這邊，所以我們從現在開始在考代理老師，我們會週週來協助22縣市。"],["劉委員書彬：好，希望尤其是偏鄉學校的老師在現場能夠真的幫助到我們的學生，不然的話，已經要開學了，還沒辦法處理","我們繼續往下看，你們的報告也呈現出……還沒看到你們報告之前，我們知道在儲備教師這部分目前有逾7萬人，不過，你們昨天的報告最新呈現出來的是，如果以活躍的儲備教師來看的話，有2萬7,000人，應徵率5年內是八成，報考是八成，就是去做甄試的部分，3年內的報考率是七成五，可是為什麼越近的時間內，報考、甄試的人數是少的？我們再看看旁邊的這篇遠見雜誌的報導當中，就算是擔任正式教師之後，繼續要留下來的比例從69.1滑到57.5，他甚至不願意要進入教職，因為老師出缺之後，代理教師考上，又導致代理教師出缺，請問部長，您知道為什麼正式教師會放棄教職嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，其實我們這些年來在世代交替，退休的人數是多的，再加上少子化，所以各縣市基本上有比較多的控留比例來聘代理老師。可是我也跟委員報告，這三年來為什麼各縣市會開始把正式缺額提出來？是因為我們111年在政策上做了一些要求，再配合一般地方的補助款，我們把各地方專任教師員額的控管比例納入我們獎補助的指標，所以各縣市就開始把比較多的正式教師缺放出來。"],["劉委員書彬：這個部分我都知道，但是我先秀一下這個資料，民間團體呈現出來的偏遠教師的狀況，全職外送員的薪資在平常狀況之下大概是四萬到八萬，高的話還可以到八萬，但正式教師如果是新進的，事實上是三萬二到三萬五，國小的新進教師，碩士大概是四萬。就這個地方來看，當教師獲得不是很好的待遇，包括沒有尊重的話，這就是一個離職原因。第二個，我們再看一下，有一個地方的教師團體跟我們反映，目前在高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘或資遣辦法當中很清楚的呈現，如果教師在校園裡面出現對學生學習權、身體自主權、人格發展權有影響的時候，就進入到校事會議。而校事會議的重要在，包括連媒體報導都呈現出來，就是進到調查的階段，而且調查的內容、過程非常繁瑣，在這個情況之下，請問部長，一個教育團體、機構直接用調查的方式，而不是回歸到教育的本質……部長，您之前也是大學的校長、教授，您面對這種情況，尤其這是一個辦法，是屬於行政命令的部分，對這個部分有這樣的意見呈現，而且是很多的教師團體、全教總都出現了這個意見，你們什麼看法？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，校事的規定是在教師法下的一個授權，從去年開始實施，確實在這一年裡我們也發現了不少的問題，當然我們國教署也在蒐集這些問題。簡單來講，目前學生或老師的一些行為上的糾正或懲處，本來學校有教評會，過去都是在教評會，現在多了一個校事會，那校事會會涉及解聘、停聘、不續聘等等很複雜的問題，包含學生的一些衝突等等的處理。所以我們現在就在想，因為進入到校事會議，目前的法令規範都是由校外的學者專家或領域專家針對學校的事件來做調查，這在學校裡面會造成一些困擾，就是因為他們可能有專業，但是對學校的現況並不是那麼清楚、了解。所以我們現在在研議、蒐集全國的資料，希望至少教師的代表、家長的代表能夠了解學校的實際的運作，再加上一半以上的校外委員、學者、專家、領域專家來共同有好的討論，希望不要造成被冤枉。如果真的是不良老師，我們當然希望他退場，但是也不希望因為這樣造成校長的……"],["劉委員書彬：所以我想簡單一句是，事實上你們定期做檢討，準備在做了？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，我們現在正在……"],["劉委員書彬：大概是多久時間呢？大概在今年的10月左右？什麼時間？可以訂出一個時間嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：年底前，我想我們會訂定出來。"],["劉委員書彬：年底之前？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["劉委員書彬：好，謝謝。這個部分我剛才也提到這不是累，那兩個東西其實最重要的，這個辛酸，當你教師沒辦法去得到認同與尊重，是一個志業的事情，而不是一個職業，卻造成這個效果，其實很遺憾的。另外我還是必須要提供一個議題，前幾個禮拜之前出現一個問題是在於你們的一個司，特別針對在偏鄉尤其在自然教師、在STEM的情況提出疑問，對於專業教師少引進高中教師的相關辦法……針對自然科學部分的老師，用免修職前學分、免考試跟免實習的條件讓大家來支援，可是這個支援是在國中、國小的部分，國教署這邊有沒有什麼回應？因為大家要知道，如果是有專技部分的，它是在高中沒有問題，可是你們卻是用高中的辦法引用到國小自然科學師資的部分，其實對於教師也是非常大的貶抑，因為老師必須修了很多的學分，包括怎麼樣去對待學生、怎麼樣心理的輔導等等的，如果沒有這些部分，這些到國小時可能會造成一種隔閡，請問部長您的看法。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，謝謝委員讓我有補充說明的機會。事實上，我們的想法是因為現在特別在高職類科，有許多理工的專業科目、學科的專業科目找不到老師，我們就希望有許多大學退場的或者一些科技大學的老師，可能學校退場，但是他非常優秀，他能夠轉任到高職；或者產業在R&D；或者他在產業有Master's degree以上，他們願意轉任。以我們現在來講，業師本來就沒有任何專業的……但是我們這裡還有6年的工作機會，有一些條件的限制，他專業能夠真正的滿足，又能夠有產業豐富的經驗，能夠協助我們高職……"],["劉委員書彬：這個部分就是我要跟部長溝通的，因為你們看到這個工商時報的標題，是在全國的中小學……"],["鄭部長英耀：我想訊息在報導上有一些落差。"],["劉委員書彬：它涉及的包括有小學的部分，如果只是在高職的部分……其實你們是要做這樣的澄清，是嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們優先要考量是高中職的老師，在STEM這一個領域裡面的老師的來源……"],["劉委員書彬：所以你只針對高職就對了，是嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們目前是鎖定在高中職。"],["劉委員書彬：如果是這樣，那就沒問題，我們就要做一個澄清，謝謝。","最後一部分，配合到我們有一些選服的部分，我就簡單的詢問一下這個部分，對於在私校學雜費的部分，這部分因為大概十幾年真的都沒有漲價了，因為私校還是有很多是靠自己的學費收入，你們這部分有沒有什麼看法，放寬它？主席，大概再一分鐘多就結束了，謝謝。"],["廖司長高賢：報告委員，我們現在針對學雜費其實有一定的機制，針對114年到116年其實有編列特別預算協助學校申請特別預算的部分，相關的學校就要承諾在114學年度到116學年度不要去調漲學雜費……"],["劉委員書彬：不調漲學雜費？"],["廖司長高賢：對，但是我們會用特別預算來挹注學校的校務經營。"],["劉委員書彬：好，所以還是有可能的，是不是？就是用教育部對學校補助款的方式去挹注他們的經營？"],["廖司長高賢：是。"],["劉委員書彬：好，這樣子。"],["彭署長富源：高中這部分的學費是我們來協助，但是雜費是由各主管機關來訂定。"],["劉委員書彬：好，謝謝司長。好，現在做了這樣子的說明，謝謝教育部部長及相關的司、署長。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["劉委員書彬：還有謝謝主席給我這麼多時間，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝劉書彬委員，部長、官員請回座。我想在這邊可能要跟部長還有出席的官員溝通，待會麻煩可不可以協助我們三件事？第一，尊重：麻煩尊重我們的每一位立委，不分黨派；第二，傾聽：各位是教育的單位，傾聽是很重要的，拜託完整的理解我們每一位委員所提出的問題；第三，煩請直接回應，委員的問題如果你有完整傾聽，我相信可以直接回應到問題，也可以讓我們委員更明確了解您對這個問題的回復好嗎？也讓社會大眾可以更清楚的理解到現在社會需要改進，大家要一起努力的地方，謝謝。","接下來有請萬美玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-18","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","劉書彬","萬美玲","陳秀寳","張雅琳","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","范雲","李坤城","黃捷","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","陳培瑜","葉元之","黃國昌","高金素梅","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":3,"meetingDate":["2025-08-07"],"gazette_id":"1147202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長列席就「全國中小學教師人力不足現況與具體因應對策」進行專題報告並備\n質詢；二、邀請教育部部長、國家科學及技術委員會、衛生福利部列席就「如何強化研究計畫之\n人體研究倫理把關機制，以保障人權，捍衛科研價值，並避免類似台師大女足抽血違反研究倫理\n之案件再次發生」進行專題報告，並備質詢；三、邀請教育部部長、行政院人事行政總處及行政\n院主計總處列席就「9月9日運動部成立籌備情形與後續推動規劃」進行專題報告並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147202_00002"}}}