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\"七\", \"start\": 833.944, \"end\": 834.084, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 834.084, \"end\": 834.324, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"份\", \"start\": 834.324, \"end\": 835.805, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 835.805, \"end\": 836.205, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"評\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 836.205, \"end\": 837.045, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"決\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"何\", \"start\": 837.045, \"end\": 837.245, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 837.245, \"end\": 837.386, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"落\", \"start\": 837.386, \"end\": 837.566, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"差\", \"start\": 837.566, \"end\": 837.786, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 837.786, \"end\": 837.986, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"此\", \"start\": 837.986, \"end\": 838.126, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 838.126, \"end\": 838.246, \"score\": 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00:00:50,788\n我想這個案子在調查過程因為他確實我們在依法尊重這個調查那當然各方的權益怎麼去維護從我一個學教育的一個這一個\n\n4\n00:00:54,482 --> 00:01:09,395\n背景出生我當然非常在意學生的一個受教權學生的權益應該被維護當然也期待也期待大學端一定要對學生的所有的權益上的一個受損能夠能夠可以\n\n5\n00:01:12,018 --> 00:01:34,752\n協助能夠給予支持或者給予看怎麼樣從行政裡面去做改善但是我也必須要講我們是一個民主法治的國家我們很多時候我們是依照法令法治來行使來做許多的行政的一些這個改善或者處理或者調查但是我也看到\n\n6\n00:01:35,774 --> 00:02:03,732\n社會大眾對這個案子事實上當然他們有殷切的期待部長重點是簡短好嗎我重點的講法就是說因為我們太多不了解整個事件的一個過程然後造成了很多社會的不必要的一些一些緊張或者一些能量或者一些資源的投入我覺得這一個部分我其實是讓我造成一個非常難過的一件事情謝謝\n\n7\n00:02:04,713 --> 00:02:19,140\n部長雖然我聽完以後還是沒有辦法充分感受到你到底難過跟心痛那個點不過聽起來好像是你覺得外界對這整件事情有一些誤解聽起來好像你心裡有一個定見但是不論如何我們尊重調查但是本席在這裡針對這個案子要講的是我認為\n\n8\n00:02:21,881 --> 00:02:43,437\n調查當然要仔細、要詳實但是速度也不可以拖我覺得這個拖久了對我們的社會、對我們的教育其實都是一個很大的傷害這邊提一下回到今天我正式的質詢的議題我們今天提到教師荒跟代理教師荒其實這兩個都存在那本席其實在四月份的時候我就已經針對了我們現在國內面臨教師荒的問題我跟部長提出了質詢\n\n9\n00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,383\n那但是幾個月過去了我們看到了這個問題不但沒有解決看起來還更加嚴重連本席選區內的某一個國中公告了三輪要甄選不管國文數學地理等等相關的科目這個叫做沒有人來報名無人報名\n\n10\n00:03:04,679 --> 00:03:12,525\n學校真的是非常的焦慮但是好像也沒辦法解決這個問題我相信部長應該知道這個狀況因為新聞也爆得沸沸揚揚那我們來看幾個數字因為剛才部長在做報告的時候你有提到說現在我們的教師其實還算是穩定投入教職的一個趨勢但這個趨勢看起來還沒有辦法解決教育上面的難處所以根據我們教育部自己的統計我們從83年到112年\n\n11\n00:03:33,281 --> 00:03:57,377\n總共是有22萬6194人領有教師的資格證但是我們實際任教率多少只有66.99%大概有三分之一超過7萬人並沒有正式進入教職所以我們就一直在講過去說失陪失陪我們要花很多的資源精神力氣來去做教師的培育跟培養但是呢\n\n12\n00:03:57,677 --> 00:04:24,368\n陪兒無法用這件事情我想這是非常嚴重的一種浪費所以我們一直要來討論那到底為什麼教師慌為什麼現在連代理教師都招不到那本席知道啦當然部長也有提到我們共同知道的因素包括少子化啦包括各縣市的資源啦經費啦等等啦還有教育現場的尊重啦困擾啦這些問題部長你都知道嗎你只要回答我你都知道嗎\n\n13\n00:04:27,009 --> 00:04:44,104\n都知道嘛而且你知道一定很長一段時間了嘛包括站在你身後的署長他更知道嘛那你想想看喔這些問題我們都知道但為什麼久久的不能解決我們應該要去看一下不能解決的原因在哪裡啊因為我們已經把問題都找出來了可是針對問題我們束手無策\n\n14\n00:04:46,406 --> 00:05:12,606\n是發生什麼事了呢對不對好您剛又說到說我們現在有針對各縣市啊如果釋出了正式圓額圈我們納入獎補助啊等等的有教育部有在做我們想辦法在做可是看起來還是沒有辦法解決嘛那這個影響是影響什麼影響我們花這麼多的精力經費培養出來的教師這麼專業卻沒有辦法進入到教職我們影響的是代理代課教師因為各項的保障跟我們教學的環境不夠好\n\n15\n00:05:13,627 --> 00:05:33,204\n他縱使他可以教堂他不願意留在這個地方最後影響的是什麼影響就是孩子的受教權所以今天我們在這裡提這樣的問題重新再提出來那包括剛剛我們所講的各縣市可能在預算上面有限經費這個不足那或者是說教育現場的環境沒有被改善所以呢教師荒\n\n16\n00:05:34,085 --> 00:06:03,016\n那教師換完以後呢我們要用代理教師可是代理教師呢即便過去這幾年當中啊其實本席一直在提說我們代理教師啊不管他的薪資要更合理化我們的聘期要整年度啊包括本席的這個桃園市我們也是其實縣市第一個第一個做到我們的這個全年制聘期的那現在當然我們全國都這樣做可是看起來還是不夠的所以呢部長你簡單的回答一下問題都知道了我們也想解決但是一直未果\n\n17\n00:06:03,556 --> 00:06:26,543\n這件事情怎麼處理我想跟委員報告感謝委員關心這個交易因為以我們今年所開的全國所開的區來看我們國中就是真的沒有招滿115個就佔6%也就是說100個裡面有6%部長不好意思我把您打斷一下數字上面我們\n\n18\n00:06:26,903 --> 00:06:45,397\n不要在這裡再討論了因為數字你有我也有少數的學校裡邊我想我們都跟地方縣市教育局處裡邊都有保持這個密切的一個溝通聯繫然後怎麼樣剛才署長也特別提到周周都會有跟這個地方政府能夠維持聯繫部長不好意思我想我繼續\n\n19\n00:06:46,918 --> 00:07:03,109\n我知道您等一下還要再繼續提出來就是說我們教育部做了很多但今天我們要面對的是說我們很關心我們也很協助教育部也很認真同仁大家都很努力但這個問題沒有辦法解決這是一個事實所以我想幾個點我今天只簡單的提幾個點因為這個問題很複雜第一個我覺得在校園裡面行政減量這件事情要做到\n\n20\n00:07:10,354 --> 00:07:34,246\n行政減量的工作第二個未來教師的待遇這個部分我們要看看怎麼樣去把它提升第三個部分呢就是在教育現場上面現在我們老師有的時候真的會很灰心有時候會覺得不如規矩怎麼樣給他們尊重怎麼樣在他們跟親師溝通之間我們給予協助這三件事情我想會後兩周給我一個報告好不好\n\n21\n00:07:35,026 --> 00:07:49,100\n可以嗎謝謝委員我想這些都是非常好的建議也是我們在努力那我們就是這個兩周給我一個報告那接下來我想一樣是部長但是我也請一下我們台師大的校長好不好\n\n22\n00:07:53,567 --> 00:08:14,597\n是我們的吳校長不好意思要麻煩你先準備一下我們還是提到這一次其實我們剛剛很多委員都有提到我們這次台師大女足學生被集體抽血換學分進行研究的這個案子我想震驚各界\n\n23\n00:08:18,479 --> 00:08:40,968\n台十一大女足這個案子其實嚴格算起來還沒有落幕我們其實又發生了這個台北海洋科技大學這個特教上面又有這個涉嫌把台積電的這個公讀名額作為控制特教生的一個工具那甚至於好像有這個要把這個公讀費回捐等等的事項其實我不禁在想\n\n24\n00:08:41,508 --> 00:09:02,791\n到底我們大學的校園發生什麼事了那麼這一些些離譜的事件發生在大學校園內教育部可能不能用大學自治就認為說這個責任教育部都沒有那我相信部長在這件事情發生之後應該不會這樣想可是我們看到教育部除了在過去\n\n25\n00:09:03,592 --> 00:09:21,100\n一直尊重大學自治之外那很多事情發生以後事後的調查懲處啊可是呢我覺得藉由這個事件我們應該來思考看看教育部到底還可以扮演什麼更積極的角色以今天來說很多細節我不再談因為媒體報導過很多今天我們委員也講了很多了但是呢我們看到剛剛國科會也有提到嘛\n\n26\n00:09:25,822 --> 00:09:31,525\n不過會發生這件事情一知道以後他也很積極趕快下去查查出來以後發現確定違法而且事件嚴重教育部後來下去了解以後也發現這個事件也非常嚴重我們都說它嚴重可是欸怪了咧我們整個相關的計畫是有審查的機制的是有審核機制的但為何\n\n27\n00:09:46,974 --> 00:10:11,173\n审核的时候是一套样本执行的时候又是一套样本而我们只能审核计划的出席给予补助但是执行的过程之中我们没有一个监督的机制然后发生事情之后我觉得在这件事情的处理上面其实是有一点荒腔走板了部长我想你一样简单台师大这个事件你觉得严不严重\n\n28\n00:10:12,264 --> 00:10:14,527\n當然嚴重好當然嚴重那我們來看到既然是當然嚴重那為何以這個台師大兩次我們兩次這個教評會的決議落差會這麼大這都在調查嘛那剛才那個也有委員在問\n\n29\n00:10:28,867 --> 00:10:42,253\n前前後後也調查了半年那何以我們在這個台師大霸凌防治委員會的建議是予以解聘兩年內不得聘任可是呢不到這個幾個月的時間兩個月的時間我們的教評會的決議跟第二次的教評會決議針對部長口中以及國科會調查的口中這麼嚴重的案件但是呢我們決議的懲處卻是天壤之別\n\n30\n00:10:53,098 --> 00:11:20,618\n这是一个非常严重的一个问题那不晓得这个我想这一题我询问一下台师大的校长吴校长好不好吴校长我想先请教您一下您身为台师大的校长我们台师大其实又是培育我们教育人才最高的殿堂发生了这样子全国震惊跟瞩目的案件一路以来半年的时间过去了您现在的心情是怎么样\n\n31\n00:11:22,246 --> 00:11:31,013\n我現在心情非常非常的沉重那也覺得我們對我們學生的照顧我們沒有照顧好\n\n32\n00:11:32,745 --> 00:11:58,990\n絕對對學生的照顧沒有照顧好那你對於這個就是我們學校在做這一些研究案的這個監督過程還有學生這樣的受害還有家長的感受跟整個教育上你還有沒有什麼話要說我想在這件事情一個很重要的一個基本根源是我們教練跟球員這個權力結構的不對等\n\n33\n00:12:02,043 --> 00:12:24,909\n以至於很多的事情我想球員沒有直接反映到學校來如果反映到學校來我想我們一定會好好的處理但是因為這個整個潛力結構的關係所以事後我們也檢討我們在這個溝通的管道一定要再加強我們在協務處也成立一個單一的管道\n\n34\n00:12:25,569 --> 00:12:46,143\n校長我對您這樣的心情上面我能理解但我對您的說法其實我不太能接受如果你只是把它列為是這個教練跟學員之間的權利不對等甚至有一點暗指說一直以來都是這樣或者是有一些漏息等等而把它訴諸在是說過程當中學生沒有來反應所以你要加強溝通我覺得太輕忽這個案子了\n\n35\n00:12:53,328 --> 00:13:08,311\n我們要知道這個案子從我們申請計畫開始起有層層把關的審核那學校難道沒有任何的監督的這個責任在裡面嗎一點都沒有嗎有有有當然有嘛所以你不是只是片面等待\n\n36\n00:13:08,812 --> 00:13:28,361\n學生來跟你說我剛才講說這個原因之一原因之二我想我們老師們在做研究的研究倫理的素養研究倫理的教育這個我們一定要再加強那當然我們倫理審查機制也有很多的地方我想我們要再進一步的做改善\n\n37\n00:13:29,535 --> 00:13:58,266\n那一個很重要當然就是說我們在查核上我們要更加的加強在這個研究好那校長我想也直接請教您這也是我剛剛請教部長的那部長當然等一下要補充回答也可以何以這麼嚴重的案子我們現在發現它的這個結果是這麼嚴重那我們在六月的這個教評會的決議跟這個七月份這個教評會的決議何以落差如此之大\n\n38\n00:14:00,244 --> 00:14:23,233\n因為我本身不是教評委員會的委員主席是我們副校長所以校長至今不了解為何落差這麼大因為裡面討論的情形我也不在裡面有不同的一些看法\n\n39\n00:14:25,454 --> 00:14:42,420\n我們在7月25日解聘四年不得聘任裡面他提到是說他們委員有在看了一些錄影帶聽了一些證據難道之前沒有看錄影帶嗎\n\n40\n00:14:44,020 --> 00:14:59,145\n這是有新的證據嗎據本席了解沒有新的證據啊這個是他們在7月25號他們指出來的那之前好那您可以先休息一下那部長據你了解為什麼兩次這個落差如此之大\n\n41\n00:15:01,584 --> 00:15:29,053\n我想我不排斥校內裡邊對周老師長期的一些貢獻當然這但是民主法治的社會你既然身為一個教評委的委員你應該要就事論事就證據來給予這一個對老師的苛責我想台師大當時的霸凌委員會裡邊調查出兩年的這個解聘兩年不能這一個從事教職\n\n42\n00:15:29,973 --> 00:15:44,404\n這一個我相信學生原來對這一個是接受的但是到校教評會裡邊似乎就輕輕放下給周老師的一些懲處看起來部長您講的這個是大家都知道的過程了啦\n\n43\n00:15:44,824 --> 00:15:48,127\n好我來講一下我想我們相關的計畫包括我們國科會其實它是會去審查每一個學校每一個單位所提出來的計畫然後這個合撥的補助但是學校在執行上面我想每一個學校都一樣應該有監督的角色而不是放任這個計畫自行進行\n\n44\n00:16:06,641 --> 00:16:34,344\n那教育部呢教育部扮演的角色在這個案子當中我是沒有看到不過我們看到亡羊補牢教育部在報告當中說你跟國科會衛福部體育署都會成立一個跨部會聯合抽查的一個機制出來嘛對不對那其實部長我要跟你提啊你現在成立一個跨部會的這個抽查機制事實上你就有審查機制了嘛也有監督機制所以呢空有機制不去做那是沒有用的我們只是在這邊說的多但做的少\n\n45\n00:16:35,905 --> 00:16:49,502\n这一点不是在斥责或是怒骂任何人而是我们检讨的问题就发现奇怪我们怎么就是机制都有但我们都没做所以我想请教你一下你这个联合抽查机制这个机制你现在跨部会成立起来了吗\n\n46\n00:16:50,612 --> 00:17:10,768\n成立了成立了那你有沒有預計一年當中定期不定期怎麼樣去一個抽查我想我們現在跨部會主要就針對這個事件裡面有現有的許多的規範審查希望能夠有改善的空間當然包含這個事件的本身還有哪些我們沒有擬親的一些的責任因為\n\n47\n00:17:11,648 --> 00:17:15,932\nPIE這個陳教授跟COPIE周老師還有其他的一些計畫我們希望能夠全盤的釐清那當然也感謝委員提醒我們因為這個事件確實我必須要承認過去在大學裡面當然它有來自於IRB的審查在事前的審查那校內比較少\n\n48\n00:17:34,830 --> 00:17:46,855\n因為過去人類經驗控比較是從行政財務上去做檢視比較少針對老師的研究裡面去做這一個不定期的一個偷測部長來因為我的時間也到了我想我最後一句話去叮您這一次這個教訓是非常痛的一個教訓是\n\n49\n00:17:53,317 --> 00:18:22,658\n那我們不希望看到這麼痛的教訓之後我們再有類似的事情發生那就是完全完全不可原諒了所以呢就有這一次那你不管是之後在事前的審查市中間的這個這個這個督查然後監督以及你現在事後你要所有要做的事情我覺得落實這件事很重要那我們也希望跨部會的小組成立起來後不要只有口號還是各唱各的調那該定期開會的該定期稽查的我們一定要落實做到可以嗎\n\n50\n00:18:23,058 --> 00:18:26,469\n是好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝萬美玲委員質詢官員請回座\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n549\t1450\t請萬美玲委員質詢好 謝謝召委 我們有請部長請部長備質詢 謝謝\n18394\t34409\t好 部長我首先想先問你一句話因為剛才我看到你在答詢的時候特別提到那個葉秉成次長所涉的事件的時候我看你整個情緒變得非常的激動那甚至好像還要一度哽咽你說這也是我心中的痛是什麼樣的痛 可以陳述一下嗎\n40336\t50788\t我想這個案子在調查過程因為他確實我們在依法尊重這個調查那當然各方的權益怎麼去維護從我一個學教育的一個這一個\n54482\t69395\t背景出生我當然非常在意學生的一個受教權學生的權益應該被維護當然也期待也期待大學端一定要對學生的所有的權益上的一個受損能夠能夠可以\n72018\t94752\t協助能夠給予支持或者給予看怎麼樣從行政裡面去做改善但是我也必須要講我們是一個民主法治的國家我們很多時候我們是依照法令法治來行使來做許多的行政的一些這個改善或者處理或者調查但是我也看到\n95774\t123732\t社會大眾對這個案子事實上當然他們有殷切的期待部長重點是簡短好嗎我重點的講法就是說因為我們太多不了解整個事件的一個過程然後造成了很多社會的不必要的一些一些緊張或者一些能量或者一些資源的投入我覺得這一個部分我其實是讓我造成一個非常難過的一件事情謝謝\n124713\t139140\t部長雖然我聽完以後還是沒有辦法充分感受到你到底難過跟心痛那個點不過聽起來好像是你覺得外界對這整件事情有一些誤解聽起來好像你心裡有一個定見但是不論如何我們尊重調查但是本席在這裡針對這個案子要講的是我認為\n141881\t163437\t調查當然要仔細、要詳實但是速度也不可以拖我覺得這個拖久了對我們的社會、對我們的教育其實都是一個很大的傷害這邊提一下回到今天我正式的質詢的議題我們今天提到教師荒跟代理教師荒其實這兩個都存在那本席其實在四月份的時候我就已經針對了我們現在國內面臨教師荒的問題我跟部長提出了質詢\n167720\t170383\t那但是幾個月過去了我們看到了這個問題不但沒有解決看起來還更加嚴重連本席選區內的某一個國中公告了三輪要甄選不管國文數學地理等等相關的科目這個叫做沒有人來報名無人報名\n184679\t192525\t學校真的是非常的焦慮但是好像也沒辦法解決這個問題我相信部長應該知道這個狀況因為新聞也爆得沸沸揚揚那我們來看幾個數字因為剛才部長在做報告的時候你有提到說現在我們的教師其實還算是穩定投入教職的一個趨勢但這個趨勢看起來還沒有辦法解決教育上面的難處所以根據我們教育部自己的統計我們從83年到112年\n213281\t237377\t總共是有22萬6194人 領有教師的資格證但是我們實際任教率多少 只有66.99%大概有三分之一超過7萬人 並沒有正式進入教職所以我們就一直在講 過去說失陪失陪我們要花很多的資源 精神 力氣 來去做教師的培育跟培養但是呢\n237677\t264368\t陪兒無法用這件事情我想這是非常嚴重的一種浪費所以我們一直要來討論那到底為什麼教師慌為什麼現在連代理教師都招不到那本席知道啦當然部長也有提到我們共同知道的因素包括少子化啦包括各縣市的資源啦經費啦等等啦還有教育現場的尊重啦困擾啦這些問題部長你都知道嗎你只要回答我你都知道嗎\n267009\t284104\t都知道嘛而且你知道一定很長一段時間了嘛包括站在你身後的署長他更知道嘛那你想想看喔這些問題我們都知道但為什麼久久的不能解決我們應該要去看一下不能解決的原因在哪裡啊因為我們已經把問題都找出來了可是針對問題我們束手無策\n286406\t312606\t是發生什麼事了呢 對不對好 您剛又說到說我們現在有針對各縣市啊如果釋出了正式圓額圈我們納入獎補助啊等等的有 教育部有在做我們想辦法在做 可是看起來還是沒有辦法解決嘛那這個影響是影響什麼影響我們花這麼多的精力 經費培養出來的教師這麼專業 卻沒有辦法進入到教職我們影響的是代理 代課教師因為各項的保障跟我們教學的環境不夠好\n313627\t333204\t他縱使他可以教堂他不願意留在這個地方最後影響的是什麼影響就是孩子的受教權所以今天我們在這裡提這樣的問題重新再提出來那包括剛剛我們所講的各縣市可能在預算上面有限經費這個不足那或者是說教育現場的環境沒有被改善所以呢教師荒\n334085\t363016\t那教師換完以後呢我們要用代理教師可是代理教師呢即便過去這幾年當中啊其實本席一直在提說我們代理教師啊不管他的薪資要更合理化我們的聘期要整年度啊包括本席的這個桃園市我們也是其實縣市第一個第一個做到我們的這個全年制聘期的那現在當然我們全國都這樣做可是看起來還是不夠的所以呢部長你簡單的回答一下問題都知道了我們也想解決但是一直未果\n363556\t386543\t這件事情怎麼處理我想跟委員報告感謝委員關心這個交易因為以我們今年所開的全國所開的區來看我們國中就是真的沒有招滿115個就佔6%也就是說100個裡面有6%部長不好意思我把您打斷一下數字上面我們\n386903\t405397\t不要在這裡再討論了因為數字你有我也有少數的學校裡邊我想我們都跟地方縣市教育局處裡邊都有保持這個密切的一個溝通聯繫然後怎麼樣剛才署長也特別提到周周都會有跟這個地方政府能夠維持聯繫部長不好意思我想我繼續\n406918\t423109\t我知道您等一下還要再繼續提出來就是說我們教育部做了很多但今天我們要面對的是說我們很關心我們也很協助教育部也很認真同仁大家都很努力但這個問題沒有辦法解決這是一個事實所以我想幾個點我今天只簡單的提幾個點因為這個問題很複雜第一個我覺得在校園裡面行政減量這件事情要做到\n430354\t454246\t行政減量的工作第二個未來教師的待遇這個部分我們要看看怎麼樣去把它提升第三個部分呢就是在教育現場上面現在我們老師有的時候真的會很灰心有時候會覺得不如規矩怎麼樣給他們尊重怎麼樣在他們跟親師溝通之間我們給予協助這三件事情我想會後兩周給我一個報告好不好\n455026\t469100\t可以嗎謝謝委員我想這些都是非常好的建議也是我們在努力那我們就是這個兩周給我一個報告那接下來我想一樣是部長但是我也請一下我們台師大的校長好不好\n473567\t494597\t是我們的吳校長不好意思要麻煩你先準備一下我們還是提到這一次其實我們剛剛很多委員都有提到我們這次台師大女足學生被集體抽血換學分進行研究的這個案子我想震驚各界\n498479\t520968\t台十一大女足這個案子其實嚴格算起來還沒有落幕我們其實又發生了這個台北海洋科技大學這個特教上面又有這個涉嫌把台積電的這個公讀名額作為控制特教生的一個工具那甚至於好像有這個要把這個公讀費回捐等等的事項其實我不禁在想\n521508\t542791\t到底我們大學的校園發生什麼事了那麼這一些些離譜的事件發生在大學校園內教育部可能不能用大學自治就認為說這個責任教育部都沒有那我相信部長在這件事情發生之後應該不會這樣想可是我們看到教育部除了在過去\n543592\t561100\t一直尊重大學自治之外那很多事情發生以後事後的調查懲處啊可是呢我覺得藉由這個事件我們應該來思考看看教育部到底還可以扮演什麼更積極的角色以今天來說很多細節我不再談因為媒體報導過很多今天我們委員也講了很多了但是呢我們看到剛剛國科會也有提到嘛\n565822\t571525\t不過會發生這件事情一知道以後他也很積極趕快下去查查出來以後發現確定違法而且事件嚴重教育部後來下去了解以後也發現這個事件也非常嚴重我們都說它嚴重可是 欸 怪了咧我們整個相關的計畫是有審查的機制的是有審核機制的但為何\n586974\t611173\t审核的时候是一套样本执行的时候又是一套样本而我们只能审核计划的出席给予补助但是执行的过程之中我们没有一个监督的机制然后发生事情之后我觉得在这件事情的处理上面其实是有一点荒腔走板了部长我想你一样简单台师大这个事件你觉得严不严重\n612264\t614527\t當然嚴重好 當然嚴重那我們來看到既然是當然嚴重那為何以這個台師大兩次我們兩次這個教評會的決議落差會這麼大這都在調查嘛那剛才那個也有委員在問\n628867\t642253\t前前後後也調查了半年那何以我們在這個台師大霸凌防治委員會的建議是予以解聘兩年內不得聘任可是呢不到這個幾個月的時間兩個月的時間我們的教評會的決議跟第二次的教評會決議針對部長口中以及國科會調查的口中這麼嚴重的案件但是呢我們決議的懲處卻是天壤之別\n653098\t680618\t这是一个非常严重的一个问题那不晓得这个我想这一题我询问一下台师大的校长吴校长好不好吴校长我想先请教您一下您身为台师大的校长我们台师大其实又是培育我们教育人才最高的殿堂发生了这样子全国震惊跟瞩目的案件一路以来半年的时间过去了您现在的心情是怎么样\n682246\t691013\t我現在心情非常非常的沉重那也覺得我們對我們學生的照顧我們沒有照顧好\n692745\t718990\t絕對對學生的照顧沒有照顧好那你對於這個就是我們學校在做這一些研究案的這個監督過程還有學生這樣的受害還有家長的感受跟整個教育上你還有沒有什麼話要說我想在這件事情一個很重要的一個基本根源是我們教練跟球員這個權力結構的不對等\n722043\t744909\t以至於很多的事情我想球員沒有直接反映到學校來如果反映到學校來我想我們一定會好好的處理但是因為這個整個潛力結構的關係所以事後我們也檢討我們在這個溝通的管道一定要再加強我們在協務處也成立一個單一的管道\n745569\t766143\t校長我對您這樣的心情上面我能理解但我對您的說法其實我不太能接受如果你只是把它列為是這個教練跟學員之間的權利不對等甚至有一點暗指說一直以來都是這樣或者是有一些漏息等等而把它訴諸在是說過程當中學生沒有來反應所以你要加強溝通我覺得太輕忽這個案子了\n773328\t788311\t我們要知道這個案子從我們申請計畫開始起有層層把關的審核那學校難道沒有任何的監督的這個責任在裡面嗎一點都沒有嗎有有有當然有嘛所以你不是只是片面等待\n788812\t808361\t學生來跟你說我剛才講說這個原因之一原因之二我想我們老師們在做研究的研究倫理的素養研究倫理的教育這個我們一定要再加強那當然我們倫理審查機制也有很多的地方我想我們要再進一步的做改善\n809535\t838266\t那一個很重要當然就是說我們在查核上我們要更加的加強在這個研究好 那校長我想也直接請教您這也是我剛剛請教部長的那部長當然等一下要補充回答也可以何以這麼嚴重的案子我們現在發現它的這個結果是這麼嚴重那我們在六月的這個教評會的決議跟這個七月份這個教評會的決議何以落差如此之大\n840244\t863233\t因為我本身不是教評委員會的委員主席是我們副校長所以校長至今不了解為何落差這麼大因為裡面討論的情形我也不在裡面有不同的一些看法\n865454\t882420\t我們在7月25日解聘四年不得聘任裡面他提到是說他們委員有在看了一些錄影帶聽了一些證據難道之前沒有看錄影帶嗎\n884020\t899145\t這是有新的證據嗎 據本席了解沒有新的證據啊這個是他們在7月25號他們指出來的那之前好 那您可以先休息一下那部長 據你了解為什麼兩次這個落差如此之大\n901584\t929053\t我想我不排斥校內裡邊對周老師長期的一些貢獻當然這但是民主法治的社會你既然身為一個教評委的委員你應該要就事論事就證據來給予這一個對老師的苛責我想台師大當時的霸凌委員會裡邊調查出兩年的這個解聘兩年不能這一個從事教職\n929973\t944404\t這一個我相信學生原來對這一個是接受的但是到校教評會裡邊似乎就輕輕放下給周老師的一些懲處看起來部長您講的這個是大家都知道的過程了啦\n944824\t948127\t好 我來講一下我想我們相關的計畫包括我們國科會其實它是會去審查每一個學校每一個單位所提出來的計畫然後這個合撥的補助但是學校在執行上面我想每一個學校都一樣應該有監督的角色而不是放任這個計畫自行進行\n966641\t994344\t那教育部呢教育部扮演的角色在這個案子當中我是沒有看到不過我們看到亡羊補牢教育部在報告當中說你跟國科會衛福部體育署都會成立一個跨部會聯合抽查的一個機制出來嘛對不對那其實部長我要跟你提啊你現在成立一個跨部會的這個抽查機制事實上你就有審查機制了嘛也有監督機制所以呢空有機制不去做那是沒有用的我們只是在這邊說的多但做的少\n995905\t1009502\t这一点不是在斥责或是怒骂任何人而是我们检讨的问题就发现奇怪我们怎么就是机制都有但我们都没做所以我想请教你一下你这个联合抽查机制这个机制你现在跨部会成立起来了吗\n1010612\t1030768\t成立了成立了那你有沒有預計一年當中定期不定期怎麼樣去一個抽查我想我們現在跨部會主要就針對這個事件裡面有現有的許多的規範審查希望能夠有改善的空間當然包含這個事件的本身還有哪些我們沒有擬親的一些的責任因為\n1031648\t1035932\tPIE這個陳教授跟COPIE周老師還有其他的一些計畫我們希望能夠全盤的釐清那當然也感謝委員提醒我們因為這個事件確實我必須要承認過去在大學裡面當然它有來自於IRB的審查在事前的審查那校內比較少\n1054830\t1066855\t因為過去人類經驗控比較是從行政財務上去做檢視比較少針對老師的研究裡面去做這一個不定期的一個偷測部長來 因為我的時間也到了我想我最後一句話去叮您這一次這個教訓是非常痛的一個教訓是\n1073317\t1102658\t那我們不希望看到這麼痛的教訓之後我們再有類似的事情發生那就是完全完全不可原諒了所以呢就有這一次那你不管是之後在事前的審查市中間的這個這個這個督查然後監督以及你現在事後你要所有要做的事情我覺得落實這件事很重要那我們也希望跨部會的小組成立起來後不要只有口號還是各唱各的調那該定期開會的該定期稽查的我們一定要落實做到可以嗎\n1103058\t1106469\t是好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝萬美玲委員質詢官員請回座\n","txt":"請萬美玲委員質詢好 謝謝召委 我們有請部長請部長備質詢 謝謝\n好 部長我首先想先問你一句話因為剛才我看到你在答詢的時候特別提到那個葉秉成次長所涉的事件的時候我看你整個情緒變得非常的激動那甚至好像還要一度哽咽你說這也是我心中的痛是什麼樣的痛 可以陳述一下嗎\n我想這個案子在調查過程因為他確實我們在依法尊重這個調查那當然各方的權益怎麼去維護從我一個學教育的一個這一個\n背景出生我當然非常在意學生的一個受教權學生的權益應該被維護當然也期待也期待大學端一定要對學生的所有的權益上的一個受損能夠能夠可以\n協助能夠給予支持或者給予看怎麼樣從行政裡面去做改善但是我也必須要講我們是一個民主法治的國家我們很多時候我們是依照法令法治來行使來做許多的行政的一些這個改善或者處理或者調查但是我也看到\n社會大眾對這個案子事實上當然他們有殷切的期待部長重點是簡短好嗎我重點的講法就是說因為我們太多不了解整個事件的一個過程然後造成了很多社會的不必要的一些一些緊張或者一些能量或者一些資源的投入我覺得這一個部分我其實是讓我造成一個非常難過的一件事情謝謝\n部長雖然我聽完以後還是沒有辦法充分感受到你到底難過跟心痛那個點不過聽起來好像是你覺得外界對這整件事情有一些誤解聽起來好像你心裡有一個定見但是不論如何我們尊重調查但是本席在這裡針對這個案子要講的是我認為\n調查當然要仔細、要詳實但是速度也不可以拖我覺得這個拖久了對我們的社會、對我們的教育其實都是一個很大的傷害這邊提一下回到今天我正式的質詢的議題我們今天提到教師荒跟代理教師荒其實這兩個都存在那本席其實在四月份的時候我就已經針對了我們現在國內面臨教師荒的問題我跟部長提出了質詢\n那但是幾個月過去了我們看到了這個問題不但沒有解決看起來還更加嚴重連本席選區內的某一個國中公告了三輪要甄選不管國文數學地理等等相關的科目這個叫做沒有人來報名無人報名\n學校真的是非常的焦慮但是好像也沒辦法解決這個問題我相信部長應該知道這個狀況因為新聞也爆得沸沸揚揚那我們來看幾個數字因為剛才部長在做報告的時候你有提到說現在我們的教師其實還算是穩定投入教職的一個趨勢但這個趨勢看起來還沒有辦法解決教育上面的難處所以根據我們教育部自己的統計我們從83年到112年\n總共是有22萬6194人 領有教師的資格證但是我們實際任教率多少 只有66.99%大概有三分之一超過7萬人 並沒有正式進入教職所以我們就一直在講 過去說失陪失陪我們要花很多的資源 精神 力氣 來去做教師的培育跟培養但是呢\n陪兒無法用這件事情我想這是非常嚴重的一種浪費所以我們一直要來討論那到底為什麼教師慌為什麼現在連代理教師都招不到那本席知道啦當然部長也有提到我們共同知道的因素包括少子化啦包括各縣市的資源啦經費啦等等啦還有教育現場的尊重啦困擾啦這些問題部長你都知道嗎你只要回答我你都知道嗎\n都知道嘛而且你知道一定很長一段時間了嘛包括站在你身後的署長他更知道嘛那你想想看喔這些問題我們都知道但為什麼久久的不能解決我們應該要去看一下不能解決的原因在哪裡啊因為我們已經把問題都找出來了可是針對問題我們束手無策\n是發生什麼事了呢 對不對好 您剛又說到說我們現在有針對各縣市啊如果釋出了正式圓額圈我們納入獎補助啊等等的有 教育部有在做我們想辦法在做 可是看起來還是沒有辦法解決嘛那這個影響是影響什麼影響我們花這麼多的精力 經費培養出來的教師這麼專業 卻沒有辦法進入到教職我們影響的是代理 代課教師因為各項的保障跟我們教學的環境不夠好\n他縱使他可以教堂他不願意留在這個地方最後影響的是什麼影響就是孩子的受教權所以今天我們在這裡提這樣的問題重新再提出來那包括剛剛我們所講的各縣市可能在預算上面有限經費這個不足那或者是說教育現場的環境沒有被改善所以呢教師荒\n那教師換完以後呢我們要用代理教師可是代理教師呢即便過去這幾年當中啊其實本席一直在提說我們代理教師啊不管他的薪資要更合理化我們的聘期要整年度啊包括本席的這個桃園市我們也是其實縣市第一個第一個做到我們的這個全年制聘期的那現在當然我們全國都這樣做可是看起來還是不夠的所以呢部長你簡單的回答一下問題都知道了我們也想解決但是一直未果\n這件事情怎麼處理我想跟委員報告感謝委員關心這個交易因為以我們今年所開的全國所開的區來看我們國中就是真的沒有招滿115個就佔6%也就是說100個裡面有6%部長不好意思我把您打斷一下數字上面我們\n不要在這裡再討論了因為數字你有我也有少數的學校裡邊我想我們都跟地方縣市教育局處裡邊都有保持這個密切的一個溝通聯繫然後怎麼樣剛才署長也特別提到周周都會有跟這個地方政府能夠維持聯繫部長不好意思我想我繼續\n我知道您等一下還要再繼續提出來就是說我們教育部做了很多但今天我們要面對的是說我們很關心我們也很協助教育部也很認真同仁大家都很努力但這個問題沒有辦法解決這是一個事實所以我想幾個點我今天只簡單的提幾個點因為這個問題很複雜第一個我覺得在校園裡面行政減量這件事情要做到\n行政減量的工作第二個未來教師的待遇這個部分我們要看看怎麼樣去把它提升第三個部分呢就是在教育現場上面現在我們老師有的時候真的會很灰心有時候會覺得不如規矩怎麼樣給他們尊重怎麼樣在他們跟親師溝通之間我們給予協助這三件事情我想會後兩周給我一個報告好不好\n可以嗎謝謝委員我想這些都是非常好的建議也是我們在努力那我們就是這個兩周給我一個報告那接下來我想一樣是部長但是我也請一下我們台師大的校長好不好\n是我們的吳校長不好意思要麻煩你先準備一下我們還是提到這一次其實我們剛剛很多委員都有提到我們這次台師大女足學生被集體抽血換學分進行研究的這個案子我想震驚各界\n台十一大女足這個案子其實嚴格算起來還沒有落幕我們其實又發生了這個台北海洋科技大學這個特教上面又有這個涉嫌把台積電的這個公讀名額作為控制特教生的一個工具那甚至於好像有這個要把這個公讀費回捐等等的事項其實我不禁在想\n到底我們大學的校園發生什麼事了那麼這一些些離譜的事件發生在大學校園內教育部可能不能用大學自治就認為說這個責任教育部都沒有那我相信部長在這件事情發生之後應該不會這樣想可是我們看到教育部除了在過去\n一直尊重大學自治之外那很多事情發生以後事後的調查懲處啊可是呢我覺得藉由這個事件我們應該來思考看看教育部到底還可以扮演什麼更積極的角色以今天來說很多細節我不再談因為媒體報導過很多今天我們委員也講了很多了但是呢我們看到剛剛國科會也有提到嘛\n不過會發生這件事情一知道以後他也很積極趕快下去查查出來以後發現確定違法而且事件嚴重教育部後來下去了解以後也發現這個事件也非常嚴重我們都說它嚴重可是 欸 怪了咧我們整個相關的計畫是有審查的機制的是有審核機制的但為何\n审核的时候是一套样本执行的时候又是一套样本而我们只能审核计划的出席给予补助但是执行的过程之中我们没有一个监督的机制然后发生事情之后我觉得在这件事情的处理上面其实是有一点荒腔走板了部长我想你一样简单台师大这个事件你觉得严不严重\n當然嚴重好 當然嚴重那我們來看到既然是當然嚴重那為何以這個台師大兩次我們兩次這個教評會的決議落差會這麼大這都在調查嘛那剛才那個也有委員在問\n前前後後也調查了半年那何以我們在這個台師大霸凌防治委員會的建議是予以解聘兩年內不得聘任可是呢不到這個幾個月的時間兩個月的時間我們的教評會的決議跟第二次的教評會決議針對部長口中以及國科會調查的口中這麼嚴重的案件但是呢我們決議的懲處卻是天壤之別\n这是一个非常严重的一个问题那不晓得这个我想这一题我询问一下台师大的校长吴校长好不好吴校长我想先请教您一下您身为台师大的校长我们台师大其实又是培育我们教育人才最高的殿堂发生了这样子全国震惊跟瞩目的案件一路以来半年的时间过去了您现在的心情是怎么样\n我現在心情非常非常的沉重那也覺得我們對我們學生的照顧我們沒有照顧好\n絕對對學生的照顧沒有照顧好那你對於這個就是我們學校在做這一些研究案的這個監督過程還有學生這樣的受害還有家長的感受跟整個教育上你還有沒有什麼話要說我想在這件事情一個很重要的一個基本根源是我們教練跟球員這個權力結構的不對等\n以至於很多的事情我想球員沒有直接反映到學校來如果反映到學校來我想我們一定會好好的處理但是因為這個整個潛力結構的關係所以事後我們也檢討我們在這個溝通的管道一定要再加強我們在協務處也成立一個單一的管道\n校長我對您這樣的心情上面我能理解但我對您的說法其實我不太能接受如果你只是把它列為是這個教練跟學員之間的權利不對等甚至有一點暗指說一直以來都是這樣或者是有一些漏息等等而把它訴諸在是說過程當中學生沒有來反應所以你要加強溝通我覺得太輕忽這個案子了\n我們要知道這個案子從我們申請計畫開始起有層層把關的審核那學校難道沒有任何的監督的這個責任在裡面嗎一點都沒有嗎有有有當然有嘛所以你不是只是片面等待\n學生來跟你說我剛才講說這個原因之一原因之二我想我們老師們在做研究的研究倫理的素養研究倫理的教育這個我們一定要再加強那當然我們倫理審查機制也有很多的地方我想我們要再進一步的做改善\n那一個很重要當然就是說我們在查核上我們要更加的加強在這個研究好 那校長我想也直接請教您這也是我剛剛請教部長的那部長當然等一下要補充回答也可以何以這麼嚴重的案子我們現在發現它的這個結果是這麼嚴重那我們在六月的這個教評會的決議跟這個七月份這個教評會的決議何以落差如此之大\n因為我本身不是教評委員會的委員主席是我們副校長所以校長至今不了解為何落差這麼大因為裡面討論的情形我也不在裡面有不同的一些看法\n我們在7月25日解聘四年不得聘任裡面他提到是說他們委員有在看了一些錄影帶聽了一些證據難道之前沒有看錄影帶嗎\n這是有新的證據嗎 據本席了解沒有新的證據啊這個是他們在7月25號他們指出來的那之前好 那您可以先休息一下那部長 據你了解為什麼兩次這個落差如此之大\n我想我不排斥校內裡邊對周老師長期的一些貢獻當然這但是民主法治的社會你既然身為一個教評委的委員你應該要就事論事就證據來給予這一個對老師的苛責我想台師大當時的霸凌委員會裡邊調查出兩年的這個解聘兩年不能這一個從事教職\n這一個我相信學生原來對這一個是接受的但是到校教評會裡邊似乎就輕輕放下給周老師的一些懲處看起來部長您講的這個是大家都知道的過程了啦\n好 我來講一下我想我們相關的計畫包括我們國科會其實它是會去審查每一個學校每一個單位所提出來的計畫然後這個合撥的補助但是學校在執行上面我想每一個學校都一樣應該有監督的角色而不是放任這個計畫自行進行\n那教育部呢教育部扮演的角色在這個案子當中我是沒有看到不過我們看到亡羊補牢教育部在報告當中說你跟國科會衛福部體育署都會成立一個跨部會聯合抽查的一個機制出來嘛對不對那其實部長我要跟你提啊你現在成立一個跨部會的這個抽查機制事實上你就有審查機制了嘛也有監督機制所以呢空有機制不去做那是沒有用的我們只是在這邊說的多但做的少\n这一点不是在斥责或是怒骂任何人而是我们检讨的问题就发现奇怪我们怎么就是机制都有但我们都没做所以我想请教你一下你这个联合抽查机制这个机制你现在跨部会成立起来了吗\n成立了成立了那你有沒有預計一年當中定期不定期怎麼樣去一個抽查我想我們現在跨部會主要就針對這個事件裡面有現有的許多的規範審查希望能夠有改善的空間當然包含這個事件的本身還有哪些我們沒有擬親的一些的責任因為\nPIE這個陳教授跟COPIE周老師還有其他的一些計畫我們希望能夠全盤的釐清那當然也感謝委員提醒我們因為這個事件確實我必須要承認過去在大學裡面當然它有來自於IRB的審查在事前的審查那校內比較少\n因為過去人類經驗控比較是從行政財務上去做檢視比較少針對老師的研究裡面去做這一個不定期的一個偷測部長來 因為我的時間也到了我想我最後一句話去叮您這一次這個教訓是非常痛的一個教訓是\n那我們不希望看到這麼痛的教訓之後我們再有類似的事情發生那就是完全完全不可原諒了所以呢就有這一次那你不管是之後在事前的審查市中間的這個這個這個督查然後監督以及你現在事後你要所有要做的事情我覺得落實這件事很重要那我們也希望跨部會的小組成立起來後不要只有口號還是各唱各的調那該定期開會的該定期稽查的我們一定要落實做到可以嗎\n是好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝萬美玲委員質詢官員請回座\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.549 --> 00:01.450\n請萬美玲委員質詢好謝謝召委我們有請部長請部長備質詢謝謝\n\n00:18.394 --> 00:34.409\n好部長我首先想先問你一句話因為剛才我看到你在答詢的時候特別提到那個葉秉成次長所涉的事件的時候我看你整個情緒變得非常的激動那甚至好像還要一度哽咽你說這也是我心中的痛是什麼樣的痛可以陳述一下嗎\n\n00:40.336 --> 00:50.788\n我想這個案子在調查過程因為他確實我們在依法尊重這個調查那當然各方的權益怎麼去維護從我一個學教育的一個這一個\n\n00:54.482 --> 01:09.395\n背景出生我當然非常在意學生的一個受教權學生的權益應該被維護當然也期待也期待大學端一定要對學生的所有的權益上的一個受損能夠能夠可以\n\n01:12.018 --> 01:34.752\n協助能夠給予支持或者給予看怎麼樣從行政裡面去做改善但是我也必須要講我們是一個民主法治的國家我們很多時候我們是依照法令法治來行使來做許多的行政的一些這個改善或者處理或者調查但是我也看到\n\n01:35.774 --> 02:03.732\n社會大眾對這個案子事實上當然他們有殷切的期待部長重點是簡短好嗎我重點的講法就是說因為我們太多不了解整個事件的一個過程然後造成了很多社會的不必要的一些一些緊張或者一些能量或者一些資源的投入我覺得這一個部分我其實是讓我造成一個非常難過的一件事情謝謝\n\n02:04.713 --> 02:19.140\n部長雖然我聽完以後還是沒有辦法充分感受到你到底難過跟心痛那個點不過聽起來好像是你覺得外界對這整件事情有一些誤解聽起來好像你心裡有一個定見但是不論如何我們尊重調查但是本席在這裡針對這個案子要講的是我認為\n\n02:21.881 --> 02:43.437\n調查當然要仔細、要詳實但是速度也不可以拖我覺得這個拖久了對我們的社會、對我們的教育其實都是一個很大的傷害這邊提一下回到今天我正式的質詢的議題我們今天提到教師荒跟代理教師荒其實這兩個都存在那本席其實在四月份的時候我就已經針對了我們現在國內面臨教師荒的問題我跟部長提出了質詢\n\n02:47.720 --> 02:50.383\n那但是幾個月過去了我們看到了這個問題不但沒有解決看起來還更加嚴重連本席選區內的某一個國中公告了三輪要甄選不管國文數學地理等等相關的科目這個叫做沒有人來報名無人報名\n\n03:04.679 --> 03:12.525\n學校真的是非常的焦慮但是好像也沒辦法解決這個問題我相信部長應該知道這個狀況因為新聞也爆得沸沸揚揚那我們來看幾個數字因為剛才部長在做報告的時候你有提到說現在我們的教師其實還算是穩定投入教職的一個趨勢但這個趨勢看起來還沒有辦法解決教育上面的難處所以根據我們教育部自己的統計我們從83年到112年\n\n03:33.281 --> 03:57.377\n總共是有22萬6194人領有教師的資格證但是我們實際任教率多少只有66.99%大概有三分之一超過7萬人並沒有正式進入教職所以我們就一直在講過去說失陪失陪我們要花很多的資源精神力氣來去做教師的培育跟培養但是呢\n\n03:57.677 --> 04:24.368\n陪兒無法用這件事情我想這是非常嚴重的一種浪費所以我們一直要來討論那到底為什麼教師慌為什麼現在連代理教師都招不到那本席知道啦當然部長也有提到我們共同知道的因素包括少子化啦包括各縣市的資源啦經費啦等等啦還有教育現場的尊重啦困擾啦這些問題部長你都知道嗎你只要回答我你都知道嗎\n\n04:27.009 --> 04:44.104\n都知道嘛而且你知道一定很長一段時間了嘛包括站在你身後的署長他更知道嘛那你想想看喔這些問題我們都知道但為什麼久久的不能解決我們應該要去看一下不能解決的原因在哪裡啊因為我們已經把問題都找出來了可是針對問題我們束手無策\n\n04:46.406 --> 05:12.606\n是發生什麼事了呢對不對好您剛又說到說我們現在有針對各縣市啊如果釋出了正式圓額圈我們納入獎補助啊等等的有教育部有在做我們想辦法在做可是看起來還是沒有辦法解決嘛那這個影響是影響什麼影響我們花這麼多的精力經費培養出來的教師這麼專業卻沒有辦法進入到教職我們影響的是代理代課教師因為各項的保障跟我們教學的環境不夠好\n\n05:13.627 --> 05:33.204\n他縱使他可以教堂他不願意留在這個地方最後影響的是什麼影響就是孩子的受教權所以今天我們在這裡提這樣的問題重新再提出來那包括剛剛我們所講的各縣市可能在預算上面有限經費這個不足那或者是說教育現場的環境沒有被改善所以呢教師荒\n\n05:34.085 --> 06:03.016\n那教師換完以後呢我們要用代理教師可是代理教師呢即便過去這幾年當中啊其實本席一直在提說我們代理教師啊不管他的薪資要更合理化我們的聘期要整年度啊包括本席的這個桃園市我們也是其實縣市第一個第一個做到我們的這個全年制聘期的那現在當然我們全國都這樣做可是看起來還是不夠的所以呢部長你簡單的回答一下問題都知道了我們也想解決但是一直未果\n\n06:03.556 --> 06:26.543\n這件事情怎麼處理我想跟委員報告感謝委員關心這個交易因為以我們今年所開的全國所開的區來看我們國中就是真的沒有招滿115個就佔6%也就是說100個裡面有6%部長不好意思我把您打斷一下數字上面我們\n\n06:26.903 --> 06:45.397\n不要在這裡再討論了因為數字你有我也有少數的學校裡邊我想我們都跟地方縣市教育局處裡邊都有保持這個密切的一個溝通聯繫然後怎麼樣剛才署長也特別提到周周都會有跟這個地方政府能夠維持聯繫部長不好意思我想我繼續\n\n06:46.918 --> 07:03.109\n我知道您等一下還要再繼續提出來就是說我們教育部做了很多但今天我們要面對的是說我們很關心我們也很協助教育部也很認真同仁大家都很努力但這個問題沒有辦法解決這是一個事實所以我想幾個點我今天只簡單的提幾個點因為這個問題很複雜第一個我覺得在校園裡面行政減量這件事情要做到\n\n07:10.354 --> 07:34.246\n行政減量的工作第二個未來教師的待遇這個部分我們要看看怎麼樣去把它提升第三個部分呢就是在教育現場上面現在我們老師有的時候真的會很灰心有時候會覺得不如規矩怎麼樣給他們尊重怎麼樣在他們跟親師溝通之間我們給予協助這三件事情我想會後兩周給我一個報告好不好\n\n07:35.026 --> 07:49.100\n可以嗎謝謝委員我想這些都是非常好的建議也是我們在努力那我們就是這個兩周給我一個報告那接下來我想一樣是部長但是我也請一下我們台師大的校長好不好\n\n07:53.567 --> 08:14.597\n是我們的吳校長不好意思要麻煩你先準備一下我們還是提到這一次其實我們剛剛很多委員都有提到我們這次台師大女足學生被集體抽血換學分進行研究的這個案子我想震驚各界\n\n08:18.479 --> 08:40.968\n台十一大女足這個案子其實嚴格算起來還沒有落幕我們其實又發生了這個台北海洋科技大學這個特教上面又有這個涉嫌把台積電的這個公讀名額作為控制特教生的一個工具那甚至於好像有這個要把這個公讀費回捐等等的事項其實我不禁在想\n\n08:41.508 --> 09:02.791\n到底我們大學的校園發生什麼事了那麼這一些些離譜的事件發生在大學校園內教育部可能不能用大學自治就認為說這個責任教育部都沒有那我相信部長在這件事情發生之後應該不會這樣想可是我們看到教育部除了在過去\n\n09:03.592 --> 09:21.100\n一直尊重大學自治之外那很多事情發生以後事後的調查懲處啊可是呢我覺得藉由這個事件我們應該來思考看看教育部到底還可以扮演什麼更積極的角色以今天來說很多細節我不再談因為媒體報導過很多今天我們委員也講了很多了但是呢我們看到剛剛國科會也有提到嘛\n\n09:25.822 --> 09:31.525\n不過會發生這件事情一知道以後他也很積極趕快下去查查出來以後發現確定違法而且事件嚴重教育部後來下去了解以後也發現這個事件也非常嚴重我們都說它嚴重可是欸怪了咧我們整個相關的計畫是有審查的機制的是有審核機制的但為何\n\n09:46.974 --> 10:11.173\n审核的时候是一套样本执行的时候又是一套样本而我们只能审核计划的出席给予补助但是执行的过程之中我们没有一个监督的机制然后发生事情之后我觉得在这件事情的处理上面其实是有一点荒腔走板了部长我想你一样简单台师大这个事件你觉得严不严重\n\n10:12.264 --> 10:14.527\n當然嚴重好當然嚴重那我們來看到既然是當然嚴重那為何以這個台師大兩次我們兩次這個教評會的決議落差會這麼大這都在調查嘛那剛才那個也有委員在問\n\n10:28.867 --> 10:42.253\n前前後後也調查了半年那何以我們在這個台師大霸凌防治委員會的建議是予以解聘兩年內不得聘任可是呢不到這個幾個月的時間兩個月的時間我們的教評會的決議跟第二次的教評會決議針對部長口中以及國科會調查的口中這麼嚴重的案件但是呢我們決議的懲處卻是天壤之別\n\n10:53.098 --> 11:20.618\n这是一个非常严重的一个问题那不晓得这个我想这一题我询问一下台师大的校长吴校长好不好吴校长我想先请教您一下您身为台师大的校长我们台师大其实又是培育我们教育人才最高的殿堂发生了这样子全国震惊跟瞩目的案件一路以来半年的时间过去了您现在的心情是怎么样\n\n11:22.246 --> 11:31.013\n我現在心情非常非常的沉重那也覺得我們對我們學生的照顧我們沒有照顧好\n\n11:32.745 --> 11:58.990\n絕對對學生的照顧沒有照顧好那你對於這個就是我們學校在做這一些研究案的這個監督過程還有學生這樣的受害還有家長的感受跟整個教育上你還有沒有什麼話要說我想在這件事情一個很重要的一個基本根源是我們教練跟球員這個權力結構的不對等\n\n12:02.043 --> 12:24.909\n以至於很多的事情我想球員沒有直接反映到學校來如果反映到學校來我想我們一定會好好的處理但是因為這個整個潛力結構的關係所以事後我們也檢討我們在這個溝通的管道一定要再加強我們在協務處也成立一個單一的管道\n\n12:25.569 --> 12:46.143\n校長我對您這樣的心情上面我能理解但我對您的說法其實我不太能接受如果你只是把它列為是這個教練跟學員之間的權利不對等甚至有一點暗指說一直以來都是這樣或者是有一些漏息等等而把它訴諸在是說過程當中學生沒有來反應所以你要加強溝通我覺得太輕忽這個案子了\n\n12:53.328 --> 13:08.311\n我們要知道這個案子從我們申請計畫開始起有層層把關的審核那學校難道沒有任何的監督的這個責任在裡面嗎一點都沒有嗎有有有當然有嘛所以你不是只是片面等待\n\n13:08.812 --> 13:28.361\n學生來跟你說我剛才講說這個原因之一原因之二我想我們老師們在做研究的研究倫理的素養研究倫理的教育這個我們一定要再加強那當然我們倫理審查機制也有很多的地方我想我們要再進一步的做改善\n\n13:29.535 --> 13:58.266\n那一個很重要當然就是說我們在查核上我們要更加的加強在這個研究好那校長我想也直接請教您這也是我剛剛請教部長的那部長當然等一下要補充回答也可以何以這麼嚴重的案子我們現在發現它的這個結果是這麼嚴重那我們在六月的這個教評會的決議跟這個七月份這個教評會的決議何以落差如此之大\n\n14:00.244 --> 14:23.233\n因為我本身不是教評委員會的委員主席是我們副校長所以校長至今不了解為何落差這麼大因為裡面討論的情形我也不在裡面有不同的一些看法\n\n14:25.454 --> 14:42.420\n我們在7月25日解聘四年不得聘任裡面他提到是說他們委員有在看了一些錄影帶聽了一些證據難道之前沒有看錄影帶嗎\n\n14:44.020 --> 14:59.145\n這是有新的證據嗎據本席了解沒有新的證據啊這個是他們在7月25號他們指出來的那之前好那您可以先休息一下那部長據你了解為什麼兩次這個落差如此之大\n\n15:01.584 --> 15:29.053\n我想我不排斥校內裡邊對周老師長期的一些貢獻當然這但是民主法治的社會你既然身為一個教評委的委員你應該要就事論事就證據來給予這一個對老師的苛責我想台師大當時的霸凌委員會裡邊調查出兩年的這個解聘兩年不能這一個從事教職\n\n15:29.973 --> 15:44.404\n這一個我相信學生原來對這一個是接受的但是到校教評會裡邊似乎就輕輕放下給周老師的一些懲處看起來部長您講的這個是大家都知道的過程了啦\n\n15:44.824 --> 15:48.127\n好我來講一下我想我們相關的計畫包括我們國科會其實它是會去審查每一個學校每一個單位所提出來的計畫然後這個合撥的補助但是學校在執行上面我想每一個學校都一樣應該有監督的角色而不是放任這個計畫自行進行\n\n16:06.641 --> 16:34.344\n那教育部呢教育部扮演的角色在這個案子當中我是沒有看到不過我們看到亡羊補牢教育部在報告當中說你跟國科會衛福部體育署都會成立一個跨部會聯合抽查的一個機制出來嘛對不對那其實部長我要跟你提啊你現在成立一個跨部會的這個抽查機制事實上你就有審查機制了嘛也有監督機制所以呢空有機制不去做那是沒有用的我們只是在這邊說的多但做的少\n\n16:35.905 --> 16:49.502\n这一点不是在斥责或是怒骂任何人而是我们检讨的问题就发现奇怪我们怎么就是机制都有但我们都没做所以我想请教你一下你这个联合抽查机制这个机制你现在跨部会成立起来了吗\n\n16:50.612 --> 17:10.768\n成立了成立了那你有沒有預計一年當中定期不定期怎麼樣去一個抽查我想我們現在跨部會主要就針對這個事件裡面有現有的許多的規範審查希望能夠有改善的空間當然包含這個事件的本身還有哪些我們沒有擬親的一些的責任因為\n\n17:11.648 --> 17:15.932\nPIE這個陳教授跟COPIE周老師還有其他的一些計畫我們希望能夠全盤的釐清那當然也感謝委員提醒我們因為這個事件確實我必須要承認過去在大學裡面當然它有來自於IRB的審查在事前的審查那校內比較少\n\n17:34.830 --> 17:46.855\n因為過去人類經驗控比較是從行政財務上去做檢視比較少針對老師的研究裡面去做這一個不定期的一個偷測部長來因為我的時間也到了我想我最後一句話去叮您這一次這個教訓是非常痛的一個教訓是\n\n17:53.317 --> 18:22.658\n那我們不希望看到這麼痛的教訓之後我們再有類似的事情發生那就是完全完全不可原諒了所以呢就有這一次那你不管是之後在事前的審查市中間的這個這個這個督查然後監督以及你現在事後你要所有要做的事情我覺得落實這件事很重要那我們也希望跨部會的小組成立起來後不要只有口號還是各唱各的調那該定期開會的該定期稽查的我們一定要落實做到可以嗎\n\n18:23.058 --> 18:26.469\n是好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝萬美玲委員質詢官員請回座\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.549,"end":1.45,"text":"請萬美玲委員質詢好 謝謝召委 我們有請部長請部長備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":18.394,"end":34.409,"text":"好 部長我首先想先問你一句話因為剛才我看到你在答詢的時候特別提到那個葉秉成次長所涉的事件的時候我看你整個情緒變得非常的激動那甚至好像還要一度哽咽你說這也是我心中的痛是什麼樣的痛 可以陳述一下嗎"},{"start":40.336,"end":50.788,"text":"我想這個案子在調查過程因為他確實我們在依法尊重這個調查那當然各方的權益怎麼去維護從我一個學教育的一個這一個"},{"start":54.482,"end":69.395,"text":"背景出生我當然非常在意學生的一個受教權學生的權益應該被維護當然也期待也期待大學端一定要對學生的所有的權益上的一個受損能夠能夠可以"},{"start":72.018,"end":94.752,"text":"協助能夠給予支持或者給予看怎麼樣從行政裡面去做改善但是我也必須要講我們是一個民主法治的國家我們很多時候我們是依照法令法治來行使來做許多的行政的一些這個改善或者處理或者調查但是我也看到"},{"start":95.774,"end":123.732,"text":"社會大眾對這個案子事實上當然他們有殷切的期待部長重點是簡短好嗎我重點的講法就是說因為我們太多不了解整個事件的一個過程然後造成了很多社會的不必要的一些一些緊張或者一些能量或者一些資源的投入我覺得這一個部分我其實是讓我造成一個非常難過的一件事情謝謝"},{"start":124.713,"end":139.14,"text":"部長雖然我聽完以後還是沒有辦法充分感受到你到底難過跟心痛那個點不過聽起來好像是你覺得外界對這整件事情有一些誤解聽起來好像你心裡有一個定見但是不論如何我們尊重調查但是本席在這裡針對這個案子要講的是我認為"},{"start":141.881,"end":163.437,"text":"調查當然要仔細、要詳實但是速度也不可以拖我覺得這個拖久了對我們的社會、對我們的教育其實都是一個很大的傷害這邊提一下回到今天我正式的質詢的議題我們今天提到教師荒跟代理教師荒其實這兩個都存在那本席其實在四月份的時候我就已經針對了我們現在國內面臨教師荒的問題我跟部長提出了質詢"},{"start":167.72,"end":170.383,"text":"那但是幾個月過去了我們看到了這個問題不但沒有解決看起來還更加嚴重連本席選區內的某一個國中公告了三輪要甄選不管國文數學地理等等相關的科目這個叫做沒有人來報名無人報名"},{"start":184.679,"end":192.525,"text":"學校真的是非常的焦慮但是好像也沒辦法解決這個問題我相信部長應該知道這個狀況因為新聞也爆得沸沸揚揚那我們來看幾個數字因為剛才部長在做報告的時候你有提到說現在我們的教師其實還算是穩定投入教職的一個趨勢但這個趨勢看起來還沒有辦法解決教育上面的難處所以根據我們教育部自己的統計我們從83年到112年"},{"start":213.281,"end":237.377,"text":"總共是有22萬6194人 領有教師的資格證但是我們實際任教率多少 只有66.99%大概有三分之一超過7萬人 並沒有正式進入教職所以我們就一直在講 過去說失陪失陪我們要花很多的資源 精神 力氣 來去做教師的培育跟培養但是呢"},{"start":237.677,"end":264.368,"text":"陪兒無法用這件事情我想這是非常嚴重的一種浪費所以我們一直要來討論那到底為什麼教師慌為什麼現在連代理教師都招不到那本席知道啦當然部長也有提到我們共同知道的因素包括少子化啦包括各縣市的資源啦經費啦等等啦還有教育現場的尊重啦困擾啦這些問題部長你都知道嗎你只要回答我你都知道嗎"},{"start":267.009,"end":284.104,"text":"都知道嘛而且你知道一定很長一段時間了嘛包括站在你身後的署長他更知道嘛那你想想看喔這些問題我們都知道但為什麼久久的不能解決我們應該要去看一下不能解決的原因在哪裡啊因為我們已經把問題都找出來了可是針對問題我們束手無策"},{"start":286.406,"end":312.606,"text":"是發生什麼事了呢 對不對好 您剛又說到說我們現在有針對各縣市啊如果釋出了正式圓額圈我們納入獎補助啊等等的有 教育部有在做我們想辦法在做 可是看起來還是沒有辦法解決嘛那這個影響是影響什麼影響我們花這麼多的精力 經費培養出來的教師這麼專業 卻沒有辦法進入到教職我們影響的是代理 代課教師因為各項的保障跟我們教學的環境不夠好"},{"start":313.627,"end":333.204,"text":"他縱使他可以教堂他不願意留在這個地方最後影響的是什麼影響就是孩子的受教權所以今天我們在這裡提這樣的問題重新再提出來那包括剛剛我們所講的各縣市可能在預算上面有限經費這個不足那或者是說教育現場的環境沒有被改善所以呢教師荒"},{"start":334.085,"end":363.016,"text":"那教師換完以後呢我們要用代理教師可是代理教師呢即便過去這幾年當中啊其實本席一直在提說我們代理教師啊不管他的薪資要更合理化我們的聘期要整年度啊包括本席的這個桃園市我們也是其實縣市第一個第一個做到我們的這個全年制聘期的那現在當然我們全國都這樣做可是看起來還是不夠的所以呢部長你簡單的回答一下問題都知道了我們也想解決但是一直未果"},{"start":363.556,"end":386.543,"text":"這件事情怎麼處理我想跟委員報告感謝委員關心這個交易因為以我們今年所開的全國所開的區來看我們國中就是真的沒有招滿115個就佔6%也就是說100個裡面有6%部長不好意思我把您打斷一下數字上面我們"},{"start":386.903,"end":405.397,"text":"不要在這裡再討論了因為數字你有我也有少數的學校裡邊我想我們都跟地方縣市教育局處裡邊都有保持這個密切的一個溝通聯繫然後怎麼樣剛才署長也特別提到周周都會有跟這個地方政府能夠維持聯繫部長不好意思我想我繼續"},{"start":406.918,"end":423.109,"text":"我知道您等一下還要再繼續提出來就是說我們教育部做了很多但今天我們要面對的是說我們很關心我們也很協助教育部也很認真同仁大家都很努力但這個問題沒有辦法解決這是一個事實所以我想幾個點我今天只簡單的提幾個點因為這個問題很複雜第一個我覺得在校園裡面行政減量這件事情要做到"},{"start":430.354,"end":454.246,"text":"行政減量的工作第二個未來教師的待遇這個部分我們要看看怎麼樣去把它提升第三個部分呢就是在教育現場上面現在我們老師有的時候真的會很灰心有時候會覺得不如規矩怎麼樣給他們尊重怎麼樣在他們跟親師溝通之間我們給予協助這三件事情我想會後兩周給我一個報告好不好"},{"start":455.026,"end":469.1,"text":"可以嗎謝謝委員我想這些都是非常好的建議也是我們在努力那我們就是這個兩周給我一個報告那接下來我想一樣是部長但是我也請一下我們台師大的校長好不好"},{"start":473.567,"end":494.597,"text":"是我們的吳校長不好意思要麻煩你先準備一下我們還是提到這一次其實我們剛剛很多委員都有提到我們這次台師大女足學生被集體抽血換學分進行研究的這個案子我想震驚各界"},{"start":498.479,"end":520.968,"text":"台十一大女足這個案子其實嚴格算起來還沒有落幕我們其實又發生了這個台北海洋科技大學這個特教上面又有這個涉嫌把台積電的這個公讀名額作為控制特教生的一個工具那甚至於好像有這個要把這個公讀費回捐等等的事項其實我不禁在想"},{"start":521.508,"end":542.791,"text":"到底我們大學的校園發生什麼事了那麼這一些些離譜的事件發生在大學校園內教育部可能不能用大學自治就認為說這個責任教育部都沒有那我相信部長在這件事情發生之後應該不會這樣想可是我們看到教育部除了在過去"},{"start":543.592,"end":561.1,"text":"一直尊重大學自治之外那很多事情發生以後事後的調查懲處啊可是呢我覺得藉由這個事件我們應該來思考看看教育部到底還可以扮演什麼更積極的角色以今天來說很多細節我不再談因為媒體報導過很多今天我們委員也講了很多了但是呢我們看到剛剛國科會也有提到嘛"},{"start":565.822,"end":571.525,"text":"不過會發生這件事情一知道以後他也很積極趕快下去查查出來以後發現確定違法而且事件嚴重教育部後來下去了解以後也發現這個事件也非常嚴重我們都說它嚴重可是 欸 怪了咧我們整個相關的計畫是有審查的機制的是有審核機制的但為何"},{"start":586.974,"end":611.173,"text":"审核的时候是一套样本执行的时候又是一套样本而我们只能审核计划的出席给予补助但是执行的过程之中我们没有一个监督的机制然后发生事情之后我觉得在这件事情的处理上面其实是有一点荒腔走板了部长我想你一样简单台师大这个事件你觉得严不严重"},{"start":612.264,"end":614.527,"text":"當然嚴重好 當然嚴重那我們來看到既然是當然嚴重那為何以這個台師大兩次我們兩次這個教評會的決議落差會這麼大這都在調查嘛那剛才那個也有委員在問"},{"start":628.867,"end":642.253,"text":"前前後後也調查了半年那何以我們在這個台師大霸凌防治委員會的建議是予以解聘兩年內不得聘任可是呢不到這個幾個月的時間兩個月的時間我們的教評會的決議跟第二次的教評會決議針對部長口中以及國科會調查的口中這麼嚴重的案件但是呢我們決議的懲處卻是天壤之別"},{"start":653.098,"end":680.618,"text":"这是一个非常严重的一个问题那不晓得这个我想这一题我询问一下台师大的校长吴校长好不好吴校长我想先请教您一下您身为台师大的校长我们台师大其实又是培育我们教育人才最高的殿堂发生了这样子全国震惊跟瞩目的案件一路以来半年的时间过去了您现在的心情是怎么样"},{"start":682.246,"end":691.013,"text":"我現在心情非常非常的沉重那也覺得我們對我們學生的照顧我們沒有照顧好"},{"start":692.745,"end":718.99,"text":"絕對對學生的照顧沒有照顧好那你對於這個就是我們學校在做這一些研究案的這個監督過程還有學生這樣的受害還有家長的感受跟整個教育上你還有沒有什麼話要說我想在這件事情一個很重要的一個基本根源是我們教練跟球員這個權力結構的不對等"},{"start":722.043,"end":744.909,"text":"以至於很多的事情我想球員沒有直接反映到學校來如果反映到學校來我想我們一定會好好的處理但是因為這個整個潛力結構的關係所以事後我們也檢討我們在這個溝通的管道一定要再加強我們在協務處也成立一個單一的管道"},{"start":745.569,"end":766.143,"text":"校長我對您這樣的心情上面我能理解但我對您的說法其實我不太能接受如果你只是把它列為是這個教練跟學員之間的權利不對等甚至有一點暗指說一直以來都是這樣或者是有一些漏息等等而把它訴諸在是說過程當中學生沒有來反應所以你要加強溝通我覺得太輕忽這個案子了"},{"start":773.328,"end":788.311,"text":"我們要知道這個案子從我們申請計畫開始起有層層把關的審核那學校難道沒有任何的監督的這個責任在裡面嗎一點都沒有嗎有有有當然有嘛所以你不是只是片面等待"},{"start":788.812,"end":808.361,"text":"學生來跟你說我剛才講說這個原因之一原因之二我想我們老師們在做研究的研究倫理的素養研究倫理的教育這個我們一定要再加強那當然我們倫理審查機制也有很多的地方我想我們要再進一步的做改善"},{"start":809.535,"end":838.266,"text":"那一個很重要當然就是說我們在查核上我們要更加的加強在這個研究好 那校長我想也直接請教您這也是我剛剛請教部長的那部長當然等一下要補充回答也可以何以這麼嚴重的案子我們現在發現它的這個結果是這麼嚴重那我們在六月的這個教評會的決議跟這個七月份這個教評會的決議何以落差如此之大"},{"start":840.244,"end":863.233,"text":"因為我本身不是教評委員會的委員主席是我們副校長所以校長至今不了解為何落差這麼大因為裡面討論的情形我也不在裡面有不同的一些看法"},{"start":865.454,"end":882.42,"text":"我們在7月25日解聘四年不得聘任裡面他提到是說他們委員有在看了一些錄影帶聽了一些證據難道之前沒有看錄影帶嗎"},{"start":884.02,"end":899.145,"text":"這是有新的證據嗎 據本席了解沒有新的證據啊這個是他們在7月25號他們指出來的那之前好 那您可以先休息一下那部長 據你了解為什麼兩次這個落差如此之大"},{"start":901.584,"end":929.053,"text":"我想我不排斥校內裡邊對周老師長期的一些貢獻當然這但是民主法治的社會你既然身為一個教評委的委員你應該要就事論事就證據來給予這一個對老師的苛責我想台師大當時的霸凌委員會裡邊調查出兩年的這個解聘兩年不能這一個從事教職"},{"start":929.973,"end":944.404,"text":"這一個我相信學生原來對這一個是接受的但是到校教評會裡邊似乎就輕輕放下給周老師的一些懲處看起來部長您講的這個是大家都知道的過程了啦"},{"start":944.824,"end":948.127,"text":"好 我來講一下我想我們相關的計畫包括我們國科會其實它是會去審查每一個學校每一個單位所提出來的計畫然後這個合撥的補助但是學校在執行上面我想每一個學校都一樣應該有監督的角色而不是放任這個計畫自行進行"},{"start":966.641,"end":994.344,"text":"那教育部呢教育部扮演的角色在這個案子當中我是沒有看到不過我們看到亡羊補牢教育部在報告當中說你跟國科會衛福部體育署都會成立一個跨部會聯合抽查的一個機制出來嘛對不對那其實部長我要跟你提啊你現在成立一個跨部會的這個抽查機制事實上你就有審查機制了嘛也有監督機制所以呢空有機制不去做那是沒有用的我們只是在這邊說的多但做的少"},{"start":995.905,"end":1009.502,"text":"这一点不是在斥责或是怒骂任何人而是我们检讨的问题就发现奇怪我们怎么就是机制都有但我们都没做所以我想请教你一下你这个联合抽查机制这个机制你现在跨部会成立起来了吗"},{"start":1010.612,"end":1030.768,"text":"成立了成立了那你有沒有預計一年當中定期不定期怎麼樣去一個抽查我想我們現在跨部會主要就針對這個事件裡面有現有的許多的規範審查希望能夠有改善的空間當然包含這個事件的本身還有哪些我們沒有擬親的一些的責任因為"},{"start":1031.648,"end":1035.932,"text":"PIE這個陳教授跟COPIE周老師還有其他的一些計畫我們希望能夠全盤的釐清那當然也感謝委員提醒我們因為這個事件確實我必須要承認過去在大學裡面當然它有來自於IRB的審查在事前的審查那校內比較少"},{"start":1054.83,"end":1066.855,"text":"因為過去人類經驗控比較是從行政財務上去做檢視比較少針對老師的研究裡面去做這一個不定期的一個偷測部長來 因為我的時間也到了我想我最後一句話去叮您這一次這個教訓是非常痛的一個教訓是"},{"start":1073.317,"end":1102.658,"text":"那我們不希望看到這麼痛的教訓之後我們再有類似的事情發生那就是完全完全不可原諒了所以呢就有這一次那你不管是之後在事前的審查市中間的這個這個這個督查然後監督以及你現在事後你要所有要做的事情我覺得落實這件事很重要那我們也希望跨部會的小組成立起來後不要只有口號還是各唱各的調那該定期開會的該定期稽查的我們一定要落實做到可以嗎"},{"start":1103.058,"end":1106.469,"text":"是好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝萬美玲委員質詢官員請回座"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":334,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（10時10分）謝謝召委，我們有請部長。"],["主席：請部長備質詢，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["萬委員美玲：好。部長，我首先想先問你一句話，因為剛才我看你在答詢的時候，特別提到葉丙成次長所涉的事件的時候，我看你整個情緒變得非常地激動，甚至於好像還一度哽咽，你說：這也是我心中的痛。是什麼樣的痛？可以陳述一下嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想這一個案子在調查過程，我們當然依法尊重調查，至於各方的權益怎麼去維護？從我是學教育的背景出身，我當然非常在意學生的受教權，學生的權益應該被維護，也期待大學端一定要對學生所有權益上的受損能夠給以協助、能夠給予支持或者看怎麼樣從行政裡面去做改善。但是我也必須要講，我們是一個民主法治的國家，很多的時候，我們是依照法令、法制來行使，來做許多的行政改善、處理或者調查，但是我也看到社會大眾對這個案子，當然他們有殷切的期待……"],["萬委員美玲：部長，重點是什麼？簡短好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：我的重點就是因為我們太多不了解整個事件的過程，然後造成了很多社會不必要的緊張，或者一些能量或者一些資源的投入，我覺得這一個部分，其實是讓我非常難過的一件事情。"],["萬委員美玲：好，謝謝部長，雖然我聽完以後還是沒有辦法充分感受到你到底難過跟心痛那個點，不過聽起來，好像是你覺得外界對這整件事情有一些誤解，聽起來好像你心裡有一個定見，但是不論如何，我們尊重調查。但是本席在這裡針對這個案子要講的是，我認為調查當然要仔細、要詳實，但是速度也不可以拖，我覺得拖久了對我們的社會、對我們的教育其實都是一個很大的傷害，這邊提一下。","回到今天我正式質詢的議題，我們今天提到教師荒跟代理教師荒，其實這兩個都存在，本席其實在4月份的時候，我就已經針對現在我們國內面臨教師荒的問題，我跟部長提出了質詢，但是幾個月過去了，我們看到這個問題不但沒有解決，看起來還更加嚴重，連本席選區內的某一個國中，公告了三輪要甄選，不管國文、數學、地理等等，相關的科目，這個叫做沒有人來報名、無人報名，學校真的是非常的焦慮，但是好像也沒辦法解決這個問題，我相信部長應該知道這個狀況，因為新聞也報得沸沸揚揚。我們來看幾個數字，因為剛才部長在報告的時候，你有提到現在的教師其實還算是穩定投入教職的趨勢，但這個趨勢看起來還沒有辦法解決教育上面的難處。所以根據教育部自己的統計，我們從86年到112年，總共是有22萬6,194人領有教師資格證，但是實際任教率多少？只有66.99%，大概有三分之一、超過7萬人並沒有正式進入教職。所以我們就一直在講，過去說師培、師培，我們要花很多的資源、精神、力氣去做教師的培育跟培養，但是我想培而無法用這件事情是非常嚴重的一種浪費，所以我們一直要討論到底為什麼教師荒、為什麼現在連代理教師都招不到？本席知道，當然部長也有提到，我們共同知道的這個因素，包括少子化，包括各縣市的資源、經費等等，還有教育現場的尊重、困擾，這些問題，部長你都知道嗎？你只要回答我，你都知道嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：知道。"],["萬委員美玲：都知道嘛！而且你也一定知道很長一段時間了，包括站在你身後的署長，他更知道。那你想想看，這些問題我們都知道，但為什麼久久不能解決？我們應該探討一下，不能解決的原因在哪裡？因為我們已經把問題都找出來了，可是針對問題卻束手無策，是發生什麼事了呢？對不對？你剛剛又說現在針對各縣市，如果有釋出正式員額缺，我們會納入獎補助等等。有！教育部有在做，你們有想辦法在做，可是看起來還是沒有辦法解決問題，那這個的影響是什麼？影響的是我們花這麼多的精力、經費培養出來這麼專業的教師，卻沒有辦法進入到教職；影響的是代理、代課教師，因為各項保障跟教學環境不夠好，縱使他可以教得很好，也不願意留在這個地方；最後影響的是什麼？影響的是孩子的受教權。所以今天在這裡我們重新再提出這樣的問題，包括剛剛我們講的，各縣市可能預算有限、經費不足，或者教育現場的環境沒有被改善，所以造成教師荒；教師荒以後，我們用代理教師因應，可是代理教師的部分，即便過去這幾年中，本席一直提出改善代理教師制度，不管是薪資更合理化，聘期要整年度，包括本席的桃園市也是第一個做到全年制聘期的縣市，當然現在全國都這樣做，可是看起來還是不夠。所以請部長簡單回答一下，現在問題都知道了，我們也想解決，但是一直未果，這件事情要怎麼處理？"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員關心教育問題，以今年全國所開的缺來看，國中是真的沒有招滿125個，比率是6%，也就是說，100個裡面有6個，但是……"],["萬委員美玲：部長，不好意思，我打斷一下，就數字部分，我們不要在這裡再討論，數字你有我也有……"],["鄭部長英耀：少數的學校，我們跟地方縣市教育局處都有保持密切的溝通、聯繫，剛才署長也特別提到，週週都會跟地方政府維持聯繫……"],["萬委員美玲：部長，不好意思，我想我繼續請教，我知道你等一下還會繼續再說明教育部事實上做了很多，但今天我們要面對的是，我們很關心、很協助，教育部也很認真，同仁大家都很努力，但問題沒有辦法解決是一個事實。這個問題很複雜，我今天就簡單提出幾點建議：第一點，校園裡行政減量的這件事情要做到。第二點，未來要如何提升教師的待遇。第三個，現在的教育現場，有時候老師會覺得很灰心、不如歸去，要如何給予他們尊重、如何在親師溝通之間給予協助？這三件事情在會後、兩週內給我一個報告，好不好？書面就好，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員，我想這些都是非常好的建議，也是我們在努力的。"],["萬委員美玲：那就兩週內給我一個報告。","接下來一樣想請教部長，但也請一下臺師大的吳校長。不好意思，要麻煩吳校長先準備一下。其實剛剛很多委員也有提到，就是臺師大女足學生被集體抽血換學分進行研究的這個案子，震驚各界，臺師大女足這個案子嚴格算起來其實還沒有落幕，接著又發生了臺北海洋科技大學在特教部分涉嫌把台積電工讀名額作為控制特教生的一個工具，甚至好像有要把工讀費回捐等等的事項，我不禁在想，到底我們大學的校園發生什麼事了？到底發生什麼事了？這一些離譜的事件發生在大學校園內，教育部可能不能用大學自治為藉口，認為教育部都沒有責任，我相信部長在這件事情發生之後，應該也不會這樣想，可是我們看到教育部過去除了一直表示尊重大學自治之外，很多事後的調查、懲處，教育部扮演了什麼角色？我覺得藉由這次事件，我們應該思考看看教育部到底還可以扮演什麼更積極的角色？很多細節我就不再談，因為媒體報導過很多，今天我們委員也講了很多，而國科會剛剛也有提到，國科會在知道這個事情之後，很積極的下去查，查出來以後發現確定違法，而且事態嚴重；教育部後來下去了解，也發現這個事件非常嚴重，大家都知道它很嚴重，可是很奇怪，整個相關計畫是有審查機制的，為何審核時是一套樣本，執行時又是一套樣本？而且你們只能在審核計畫的初期給予補助，在執行的過程中，卻沒有任何監督機制，然後事情發生之後，哇！我覺得在這件事情的處理上，其實是有一點荒腔走板。部長，請你一樣簡答，臺師大的這個事件，你覺得嚴不嚴重？"],["鄭部長英耀：當然嚴重。"],["萬委員美玲：好，當然嚴重，既然當然嚴重，為何臺師大兩次教評會的決議落差會這麼大？一樣都是調查，剛才也有委員詢問，前前後後調查了半年，何以臺師大霸凌防制委員會的建議是予以解聘、兩年內不得聘任，可是不到兩個月的時間，教評會的決議跟第二次教評會決議，針對部長口中及國科會調查所說的這麼嚴重的案件，決議的懲處卻是天壤之別？這是一個非常嚴重的問題。","這一題我詢問一下臺師大吳校長。吳校長，先請教你，身為臺師大校長，臺師大又是培育教育人才最高的殿堂，發生了這樣一個全國震驚跟矚目的案件，一路以來，半年時間過去了，你現在的心情怎麼樣？"],["吳校長正己：我現在的心情非常非常沉重，也覺得對我們學生的照顧是沒有照顧好。"],["萬委員美玲：覺得對學生的照顧沒有照顧好？"],["吳校長正己：是。"],["萬委員美玲：對於學校在做這一些研究案的監督過程，還有學生的受害、家長的感受，以及在整個教育上，你還有沒有什麼話要說？"],["吳校長正己：我想這件事情一個很重要的基本根源是教練跟球員權力結構的不對等，以至於很多事情球員沒有直接跟學校反映，如果有反映到學校，我們一定會好好處理，因為攸關整個權力結構的關係，事後我們也檢討這部分的溝通管道一定要再加強，所以我們在學務處也成立了一個單一管道。"],["萬委員美玲：校長，我對你這樣的心情能理解，但我對你的說法其實不太能接受，如果只是把它列為教練跟學員之間的權力不對等，甚至有一點暗指一直以來都是這樣，或者是有一些陋習等等，而把它訴諸在過程當中學生沒有來反映，所以你要加強溝通，我覺得就太輕忽這個案子了。我們要知道，這個案子從申請計畫開始，有層層把關的審核，學校難道沒有任何監督的責任嗎？一點都沒有嗎？"],["吳校長正己：有，有，有。"],["萬委員美玲：當然有嘛！所以你不是只是片面等待學生來跟你說啊！"],["吳校長正己：我剛才講的是原因之一，原因之二，老師們做研究的研究倫理素養、研究倫理教育，這個也一定要再加強，當然，我們的倫理審查機制也有很多要再進一步改善的地方，一個很重要的點當然就是我們在查核上要更加的加強，在這個研究……"],["萬委員美玲：好，校長，我就直接請教你，這也是我剛剛請教部長的，當然部長等一下要補充回答也可以。我們發現這個案子是這麼嚴重，而6月份教評會的決議和7月份教評會的決議，何以落差會如此之大？"],["吳校長正己：因為我本身不是教評委員會委員，主席是我們副校長，那……"],["萬委員美玲：所以校長至今不了解為何落差這麼大？"],["吳校長正己：因為討論時我並不在裡面，不過會中是有不同的一些看法，我們在7月25日決議解聘，且4年不得聘任，裡面提到委員有再看了一些錄影帶、聽了一些證據……"],["萬委員美玲：難道之前沒有看錄影帶嗎？這是有新的證據嗎？據本席了解，沒有新的證據啊！"],["吳校長正己：這個是在7月25號他們指出來的。"],["萬委員美玲：好，校長，您可以先休息一下。部長，據你了解，為什麼兩次的落差如此之大？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我不排斥周老師對校內長期的一些貢獻，但這是民主法治的社會，你既然身為一個教評會的委員，你應該要就事論事、就證據來給予這一個對老師的課責。我想臺師大當時的霸凌委員會調查後的懲處是2年不得從事教職，我相信學生原來對這一個決定是接受的，但是到校教評會裡面看起來似乎就輕輕放下給周老師的一些懲處……"],["萬委員美玲：部長，你講的這個是大家都知道的過程啦！我來講一下，我想我們相關的計畫，包括國科會，其實它會去審查每一個學校、每一個單位所提出來的計畫以及核撥的補助，但是學校在執行上面，我想每一個學校都一樣，應該有監督的角色，而不是放任這個計畫自行進行。至於教育部所扮演的角色，在這個案子當中我是沒有看到，不過我們看到亡羊補牢，教育部也在報告當中說，你跟國科會、衛福部、體育署會成立一個跨部會聯合抽查的機制，部長，你現在成立一個跨部會的抽查機制，但事實上你就有審查機制，也有監督機制，所以空有機制不去做是沒有用的，我們只是在那邊說得多，但做得少，這一點不是在斥責或是怒罵任何人，而是我們檢討問題時就發現，奇怪，我們怎麼機制都有，但我們都沒做？所以部長，我想請教你，現在這個跨部會的聯合抽查機制成立起來了嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：成立了。"],["萬委員美玲：那你有沒有預計一年當中定期、不定期怎麼樣去做抽查？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們現在跨部會針對這個事件裡面許多現有的規範、審查希望能夠有改善的空間，當然包含這個事件本身還有哪些我們沒有釐清的責任，因為PI陳教授跟Co-PI周老師還有其他的一些計畫，我們希望能夠全盤的釐清。當然也感謝委員提醒，因為這一個事件，確實我必須要承認，過去在大學裡面當然有來自於IRB在事前的審查，但因為過去校內的內稽、內控比較是從行政、財務上去做檢視，比較少針對老師的研究去做不定期的抽查……"],["萬委員美玲：部長，因為我的時間也到了，我想我最後用一句話叮嚀，這一次這個教訓是非常痛的一個教訓，我們不希望看到在這麼痛的教訓之後再有類似的事情發生，那就是完全不可原諒了。所以藉由這一次的事件，不管是之後在事前的審查，事中間的督察、監督，以及現在事後你所有要做的事情，我覺得落實這件事很重要，我們也希望跨部會的小組成立起來後不要只有口號，還是各唱各的調，該定期開會的、該定期稽查的一定要落實做到，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["萬委員美玲：好，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員質詢，官員請回座。","接下來有請陳秀寳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-18","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","劉書彬","萬美玲","陳秀寳","張雅琳","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","范雲","李坤城","黃捷","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","陳培瑜","葉元之","黃國昌","高金素梅","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":3,"meetingDate":["2025-08-07"],"gazette_id":"1147202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長列席就「全國中小學教師人力不足現況與具體因應對策」進行專題報告並備\n質詢；二、邀請教育部部長、國家科學及技術委員會、衛生福利部列席就「如何強化研究計畫之\n人體研究倫理把關機制，以保障人權，捍衛科研價值，並避免類似台師大女足抽血違反研究倫理\n之案件再次發生」進行專題報告，並備質詢；三、邀請教育部部長、行政院人事行政總處及行政\n院主計總處列席就「9月9日運動部成立籌備情形與後續推動規劃」進行專題報告並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147202_00002"}}}