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{\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 959.577, \"end\": 959.657, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 959.657, \"end\": 959.737, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 959.737, \"end\": 959.757, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 973.646, \"end\": 974.307, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 974.307, \"end\": 974.628, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"鳳\"}, {\"word\": \"召\", \"start\": 974.628, \"end\": 974.848, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 974.848, \"end\": 974.868, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:23,558 --> 00:00:24,342\n大家謝謝請大家注意\n\n2\n00:00:36,060 --> 00:00:58,100\n主委今天台灣的時間早上凌晨四點川普公布對我們晶片跟半導體100%我剛剛看了你的答詢像真正的癥結是什麼川普要的就是美國生產嘛對不對那相對之下我們現在要解決的問題是不是因為他課了這麼高的一個關稅我們的半導體會不會外移非常嚴重\n\n3\n00:00:59,653 --> 00:01:15,820\n他不只課這個關稅100%喔他有個計畫嘛對不對他說你如果要我美國投資對不對還是說你有投資計畫我就是領嘛那這個像在拔河啊川普都出招了他也跟你講得那麼清楚啊我要你的半導體他之前說你把我的晶片都偷走了\n\n4\n00:01:17,368 --> 00:01:45,817\n那這樣會不會導致會不會導致台灣的半導體現在是全州都去喔不是只有台電去喔上中下游在這段時間你應該有知道那個整個狀況嗎很多相關的業者都過去了嘛會不會因為今天的這個100%導致我們的半導體的產業更加速的外移到美國去這應該不是外移喔我們過去有外移的情形是很多中小型的企業把這邊關掉到了別的地方去生產\n\n5\n00:01:47,037 --> 00:02:14,632\n那現在這個不是萬一是全球佈局就是他跟在台灣我們來看建設來看現在台積電一廠做完再蓋二廠但是台積電現在在高雄在嘉義這些地方都在建廠包括台中也要再建新廠其實這邊的建台積電在台灣的投資遠超過在美國的投資如果像您是專家就很清楚在三個廠去的時候大家就在看\n\n6\n00:02:15,492 --> 00:02:34,365\n這個大概產能可以佔台積電多少那時候大家估計都在6%多那事實上台積電以外銷美國來看現在在1%上下其實都沒有那麼多它不是外移它是全球佈局的部分他認為外移這個字可以變成是全球佈局兩種他如果把台灣關掉\n\n7\n00:02:39,128 --> 00:02:56,821\n過去就是外移就跟移民一樣有些會不會關掉關掉了有沒有關掉是個問號但台積電所有的先進製程都在台灣那投資金額是有限的嘛對不對就是有排擠嘛例如說本來要在台灣要投資一千億嘛那因為我美國這個高關稅我只要有一半到那邊去那台灣投資當然就減少囉\n\n8\n00:02:58,603 --> 00:03:15,397\n這個您是專家一定更清楚每個企業在進行投資的時候一定會看到他的他手上的資金流量來然後看他的佈局那您對企業比較了解一定很清楚沒有一個企業會去蓋一個廠擺在那裡花一千億然後沒有人買對不對\n\n9\n00:03:16,918 --> 00:03:41,903\n所以它一定是有訂單它才會往前移動那第二個事情是它在資金的佈局上面很明顯它在台灣在建廠非常多遠比美國多很多那就很明顯它的資金的投資在這邊那台積電的資金流量一定是控制得非常嚴謹的我們做兩個非常具體的指標第一個有沒有因為本來要在台灣的這個投資或者它的產能現在到美國去這是馬上看得到的喔\n\n10\n00:03:42,803 --> 00:03:57,951\n因為你是個企業你現在一定要想嘛我在台灣生產然後在美國生產美國這邊要到在台灣可能要100%那到那邊是零沒有這個我們就不用爭辯這個就未來很快就可以看得到有沒有影響到台灣的投資或者某些產業的這個外移我們知道事實\n\n11\n00:03:59,131 --> 00:04:15,636\n這有一個證明點這個證明點就是說美國的產能有沒有人包下來美國做的有沒有買家如果沒有的話就會吻合你剛才講的但如果有那就另外一個看法了\n\n12\n00:04:16,056 --> 00:04:25,728\n那我現在的瞭解是說他是確定要有訂單他才會生產目前是這樣的狀況所以他不會有空置才能你只要看產能利用率就很清楚了你應該比我了解我們剛剛這樣討論我要求兩個東西好不好就是未來辦\n\n13\n00:04:33,958 --> 00:04:59,378\n開始要你要去推估就是經過這百分之百這個衝擊完之後不管是外移或者是全球布局要兩個東西第一個在投資台灣的這個金額有沒有減少或是有哪些加速到美國去投資影響到台灣把這兩個做個整理好不好金額跟投資額的加速這個都很明顯很快就看得到了好不好因為這個要訪談我們大概只能訪談主要代表廠商啦因為這個蠻大的量\n\n14\n00:05:00,517 --> 00:05:21,695\n你先反彈幾個比較有代表性的好那我們更具體的你是我們國家這個公股董事台積電的公股董事嘛台積電現在面臨兩個很重要的挑戰一個是投資金額川普一直在加碼一直在加碼今天最新的他講的不是三千億喔兩千億當然也有可能再跳回去三千億不過這金額都很大\n\n15\n00:05:22,805 --> 00:05:51,529\n兩千億是增加多少?目前是1650元1650元是台積電發言人很確定的在回應數字那如果照川普講的至少要增加350億的美金350億美金是多少?一條耶中央政府總預算的三分之一耶那這筆錢是本來要投資在台灣的會不會到美國去?這個是一個考量點對不對那你的了解你是公股公股的這個董事你對於現在到底到美國投資到底是多少?\n\n16\n00:05:53,048 --> 00:06:18,654\n內部你們有沒有評估過投資就是1650目前所以雖然川普現在是喊價嗎還是已經很具體已經有跟你們要求還沒有我想這個民間的事情當然是以台積電發言人為主你也知道董事大概就沒辦法講太多但是就我的了解目前還是在1650站在公股董事的這個代表國家去你比較支持再繼續加碼嗎還是留在1650\n\n17\n00:06:21,447 --> 00:06:49,427\n我的看法是這樣子看生意了你的訂單有沒有所有的企業都是照這個走那第二個是我們看下來在高雄六個廠的計畫沒有變然後其實嘉義的廠的計畫沒有變尤其嘉義的投資其實你應該知道不只兩個廠對不對那再加上台南跟台中所以他的投資\n\n18\n00:06:50,188 --> 00:07:16,121\n投資量能而且您可以看到目前最先進的都在臺灣所以他不會改變那我們現在最守住的就是最先進的製程一定在臺灣所以主委我們跟全民承諾在對美國加大投資的同時臺灣一定要顧到對不對你剛講這些廠我們要顧到就是不能少只能增加最新的技術一定在臺灣來來來你剛講新的你現在講到第二個就是我要講的第二個危機理工核心技術來\n\n19\n00:07:17,482 --> 00:07:39,390\n現在川普跟美國要求的是什麼?不是只有生價金了啦他要求Intel我們要合股對不對?要去買多少?變成49%對不對?所以要問公股董事啊你們內部有沒有討論過如果要去要去跟Intel做這麼大的一個投資49%\n\n20\n00:07:41,656 --> 00:08:09,781\n表示51%還是英特爾主導嘛為什麼要去美國為什麼要做這個要求要去救英特爾嘛對不對我上次國元跟你報告一下上次我就有回應到英特爾就造成美國的股市股價就下滑了所以我想我是不建議我們可以私下聊聊但是我不建議我們在不公開討論我們不用像經濟部長多智慧講說去入股合併救他們雖然上次沒有影響到台灣但是影響到美國股價上了好多媒體\n\n21\n00:08:10,501 --> 00:08:30,538\n有內部評估可是我們還不公開啦OK好那就我們私底下再來問好來我接下來問兩個很重要的事情這都是你主管的重要的那個我們現在啊面臨的是美國的關稅一直在拉高可是主委你沒有發現在民進黨政府在抗中保台的同時\n\n22\n00:08:32,725 --> 00:08:46,390\n我們從中國大陸賺的錢一直在快速的下滑我可以看這個是審計部跟很多這個統計最近這五年民國109年到110年度我國出口到\n\n23\n00:08:49,551 --> 00:09:06,021\n中國大陸早說的產品出口值介於149億美元到259億美元光是最近這兩年民國110年到113年度呈現負成長少了多少18.76%一個是減了23%我們從大陸那邊賺的錢減少了將近四分之一\n\n24\n00:09:14,265 --> 00:09:43,516\n減少了四分之一那現在更恐怖的是什麼我們本來要這筆錢就從美國去賺嘛我們去年從美國賺了739億對不對可是現在危機來了因為這個刀關稅衝擊川普的意思就是你賺了我的錢我要拿回來啦所以美國那邊會不會減少這是一個危機更重要的現在還要走我們不是一直在強調要去加入一些七一的經濟對不對我們看一下這個是審計部最新的決算報告他說我們政府啊\n\n25\n00:09:45,981 --> 00:10:10,482\n這個國發會應該有接到啦這是審計部的結算報告政府最近這幾年積極在推動國際經貿的這個拓展要去爭取出國產業的對外貿易的立足點的平等你看人家國與國之間都是很多都是零關稅自由貿易對不對我們已經要簽訂加入七億整合協定已經十幾年了可是現在申請加入包括CPTPP兩年到現在還沒進來\n\n26\n00:10:11,957 --> 00:10:36,170\n沒有發現所以相對你大陸那邊ECOQUA的你現在少了那麼多錢一年少了四分之一的錢喔從大陸賺的錢喔而且越來越在抗中保台越來越少結果從美國賺的錢美國現在川普出手可能會降下來你現在跟東協跟其他國家你要申請這個國際的這個冠帽的到現在進不去啊因為中國的反對我們現在這幾個全部都是中國反對\n\n27\n00:10:37,386 --> 00:10:59,904\n那如果中國不反對,我認為我們的機會都很大啦中國一定反對嘛,中國對台灣的打壓是無時不刻影響他一直在打壓我們所以呢,我們自己也要有做好準備,做好防衛啦所以注意這上面準備,而且要突破啊,人們要看你是要突破嘛\n\n28\n00:11:00,484 --> 00:11:21,890\n我剛剛講這三個點都很重要對不對中國大陸抗中保台之下收入減少了美國看起來本來是高的可是可能會往下掉因為川普出手了接下來你跟這個經濟貿易這一塊你要加入的這個國際組織現在都是停所以是不是這一塊要趕快再一突破要多加強我們會繼續努力啦但是我們不會再像打壓我們的人屈服啦\n\n29\n00:11:22,590 --> 00:11:46,802\n現在當然不能欺負啦重點是自己要自立自強你自己這條路要趕快去開出來先是審計部的決算報告喔這是要求國發會也要做改正的喔你要面對這個你要回答審計部喔後來最後問一個很重要的題這幾天光電板山也光電板海也光電板製縫池也光電板農地也是光電板\n\n30\n00:11:48,254 --> 00:12:15,274\n引起了全民的抗議現在光電板已經卡住了而且這次颱風一來破損的壞掉了甚至有些都已經堆到這個農地上面去了民怨非常的深我來看一下審計部怎麼講新潔部他們最近提了一個報告說政府的太陽能這個光電啊這也是你管的你本來訂一個目標嘛對不對訂一個目標嘛結果審計部現在審理出來的\n\n31\n00:12:17,349 --> 00:12:24,100\n跳票一再再跳票特別是在魚電工生這一塊魚電工生就是下面養魚上面有光電板\n\n32\n00:12:26,384 --> 00:12:51,313\n你們訂的木片到現在達成率是多少您提到這個漁電工生我們現在在我們也看到這次在家也有廠商他其實是放在他的儲存櫃跟屋頂上一個新的模式這個新的模式讓他度過了五天這個斷電的時間那其實我們在台南也有廠商他們就是\n\n33\n00:12:52,713 --> 00:13:12,037\n養魚業者自己做的新型漁電工生他們自己覺得效果很好所以我們現在在試著搭配這些一起來推廣他們覺得養魚業者覺得比較好的模式我們希望推廣給業者達到合作另外我們也在協調農業部就是說過去漁電工生如果是他必須要養魚的部分可以免費給到農業青年\n\n34\n00:13:20,879 --> 00:13:48,558\n得到免費的餘溫來養魚然後達到一個三贏的角色主委我現在跟你講的是那我們逐步希望來改善那至於他的那個房台的強化我們我想我們也會找經濟部來協商看看經濟部可不可以在這個部分做一個強化那再來我們現在所有的這個光電要設置一定要經過溝通才能送案那這個溝通的部分我們現在也做了做了比較大的改善就是說我們分兩個區一個區是在地居民\n\n35\n00:13:51,079 --> 00:14:11,079\n一個是不是在地居民那這樣的話我們可以分清楚在地人的聲音是什麼那這些都做過才申請我們要一起努力不過現在兩個最大的問題這個都是你國發會也是我們國家定下的目標一個是發電量嘛餘電共生的發電量第二個就是魚不能夠餘電共生結果魚死了\n\n36\n00:14:12,660 --> 00:14:33,174\n電才來甚至是於此的電嚴重的缺乏少了非常多現在兩個目標第一個你看喔這些都是你訂的目標喔113年跟115年你訂的目標的達成率啊不到一半到了115年這個是省紀部最新的結算報告大家看一下達成率只有多少\n\n37\n00:14:34,195 --> 00:14:56,298\n你本來要達成的115年底的達成率是4428MW到目前為止只達成了22.52%欸你整個標準只達成了大概五分之一欸連七成都不到欸所以主委檢討兩個事情主委你的目標是不是定的太高誤會還是中間出了什麼問題\n\n38\n00:14:57,932 --> 00:15:12,047\n你大概一個月好不好一個月檢討一下為什麼打成立省然後講你你也是要回應給省紀部的啦清潔波對應你的目標我不要用打臉就說這個落差真的太大了當初準備訂了然後打成立查這些因為是訂的目標不是我們訂的\n\n39\n00:15:13,710 --> 00:15:29,728\n這是漁業署定的目標啦那我們來溝通吧漁業署容易不提上去嘛那我們跟委員一個說我們政府國發會定這個目標漁業署定這個目標竟然達成力不到七成發電量不到七成\n\n40\n00:15:31,149 --> 00:15:44,554\n不到三成這是多嚴重的一個事情那第二個我給你我找他們給你一個報告我們一起弄一下那一個月內給我一份報告這個你也要回給那個審計部嘛那另外就是很多魚都死掉了\n\n41\n00:15:45,886 --> 00:15:59,757\n違反了漁電共生的原則好不好這個也是非常嚴重的這個我是問過農業部長然後省紀部這次也講也是有七成都沒有達成這個魚的養殖也並同一個月檢討好不好好謝謝好我們現在接下來請\n\n42\n00:16:13,646 --> 00:16:14,868\n我們謝一鳳召委來質詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n23558\t24342\t大家謝謝 請大家注意\n36060\t58100\t主委今天台灣的時間早上凌晨四點川普公布對我們晶片跟半導體100%我剛剛看了你的答詢像真正的癥結是什麼川普要的就是美國生產嘛對不對那相對之下我們現在要解決的問題是不是因為他課了這麼高的一個關稅我們的半導體會不會外移非常嚴重\n59653\t75820\t他不只課這個關稅100%喔他有個計畫嘛 對不對他說你如果要我美國投資 對不對還是說你有投資計畫我就是領嘛那這個像在拔河啊川普都出招了他也跟你講得那麼清楚啊我要你的半導體他之前說你把我的晶片都偷走了\n77368\t105817\t那這樣會不會導致 會不會導致台灣的半導體 現在是全州都去喔不是只有台電去喔 上中下游在這段時間你應該有知道那個整個狀況嗎很多相關的業者都過去了嘛會不會因為今天的這個100%導致我們的半導體的產業更加速的外移到美國去這應該不是外移喔 我們過去有外移的情形是很多中小型的企業把這邊關掉到了別的地方去生產\n107037\t134632\t那現在這個不是萬一是全球佈局就是他跟在台灣我們來看建設來看現在台積電一廠做完再蓋二廠但是台積電現在在高雄在嘉義這些地方都在建廠包括台中也要再建新廠其實這邊的建台積電在台灣的投資遠超過在美國的投資如果像您是專家就很清楚在三個廠去的時候大家就在看\n135492\t154365\t這個大概產能可以佔台積電多少那時候大家估計都在6%多那事實上台積電以外銷美國來看現在在1%上下其實都沒有那麼多它不是外移它是全球佈局的部分他認為外移這個字可以變成是全球佈局兩種他如果把台灣關掉\n159128\t176821\t過去就是外移就跟移民一樣有些會不會關掉關掉了有沒有關掉是個問號但台積電所有的先進製程都在台灣那投資金額是有限的嘛對不對就是有排擠嘛例如說本來要在台灣要投資一千億嘛那因為我美國這個高關稅我只要有一半到那邊去那台灣投資當然就減少囉\n178603\t195397\t這個您是專家一定更清楚每個企業在進行投資的時候一定會看到他的他手上的資金流量來然後看他的佈局那您對企業比較了解一定很清楚沒有一個企業會去蓋一個廠擺在那裡花一千億然後沒有人買對不對\n196918\t221903\t所以它一定是有訂單它才會往前移動那第二個事情是它在資金的佈局上面很明顯它在台灣在建廠非常多遠比美國多很多那就很明顯它的資金的投資在這邊那台積電的資金流量一定是控制得非常嚴謹的我們做兩個非常具體的指標第一個有沒有因為本來要在台灣的這個投資或者它的產能現在到美國去這是馬上看得到的喔\n222803\t237951\t因為你是個企業你現在一定要想嘛我在台灣生產然後在美國生產美國這邊要到在台灣可能要100%那到那邊是零沒有這個我們就不用爭辯這個就未來很快就可以看得到有沒有影響到台灣的投資或者某些產業的這個外移我們知道事實\n239131\t255636\t這有一個證明點這個證明點就是說美國的產能有沒有人包下來美國做的有沒有買家如果沒有的話就會吻合你剛才講的但如果有那就另外一個看法了\n256056\t265728\t那我現在的瞭解是說他是確定要有訂單他才會生產目前是這樣的狀況所以他不會有空置才能你只要看產能利用率就很清楚了你應該比我了解我們剛剛這樣討論我要求兩個東西好不好就是未來辦\n273958\t299378\t開始要你要去推估就是經過這百分之百這個衝擊完之後不管是外移或者是全球布局要兩個東西第一個在投資台灣的這個金額有沒有減少或是有哪些加速到美國去投資影響到台灣把這兩個做個整理好不好金額跟投資額的加速這個都很明顯很快就看得到了好不好因為這個要訪談我們大概只能訪談主要代表廠商啦因為這個蠻大的量\n300517\t321695\t你先反彈幾個比較有代表性的好那我們更具體的你是我們國家這個公股董事台積電的公股董事嘛台積電現在面臨兩個很重要的挑戰一個是投資金額川普一直在加碼一直在加碼今天最新的他講的不是三千億喔兩千億當然也有可能再跳回去三千億不過這金額都很大\n322805\t351529\t兩千億是增加多少?目前是1650元1650元是台積電發言人很確定的在回應數字那如果照川普講的至少要增加350億的美金350億美金是多少?一條耶中央政府總預算的三分之一耶那這筆錢是本來要投資在台灣的會不會到美國去?這個是一個考量點對不對那你的了解你是公股公股的這個董事你對於現在到底到美國投資到底是多少?\n353048\t378654\t內部你們有沒有評估過投資就是1650目前所以雖然川普現在是喊價嗎還是已經很具體已經有跟你們要求還沒有我想這個民間的事情當然是以台積電發言人為主你也知道董事大概就沒辦法講太多但是就我的了解目前還是在1650站在公股董事的這個代表國家去你比較支持再繼續加碼嗎還是留在1650\n381447\t409427\t我的看法是這樣子看生意了你的訂單有沒有所有的企業都是照這個走那第二個是我們看下來在高雄六個廠的計畫沒有變然後其實嘉義的廠的計畫沒有變尤其嘉義的投資其實你應該知道不只兩個廠對不對那再加上台南跟台中所以他的投資\n410188\t436121\t投資量能而且您可以看到目前最先進的都在臺灣所以他不會改變那我們現在最守住的就是最先進的製程一定在臺灣所以主委我們跟全民承諾在對美國加大投資的同時臺灣一定要顧到對不對你剛講這些廠我們要顧到就是不能少只能增加最新的技術一定在臺灣來來來你剛講新的你現在講到第二個就是我要講的第二個危機理工核心技術來\n437482\t459390\t現在川普跟美國要求的是什麼?不是只有生價金了啦他要求Intel我們要合股對不對?要去買多少?變成49%對不對?所以要問公股董事啊你們內部有沒有討論過如果要去要去跟Intel做這麼大的一個投資49%\n461656\t489781\t表示51%還是英特爾主導嘛為什麼要去美國為什麼要做這個要求要去救英特爾嘛對不對我上次國元跟你報告一下上次我就有回應到英特爾就造成美國的股市股價就下滑了所以我想我是不建議我們可以私下聊聊但是我不建議我們在不公開討論我們不用像經濟部長多智慧講說去入股合併救他們雖然上次沒有影響到台灣但是影響到美國股價上了好多媒體\n490501\t510538\t有內部評估可是我們還不公開啦OK好那就我們私底下再來問好來我接下來問兩個很重要的事情這都是你主管的重要的那個我們現在啊面臨的是美國的關稅一直在拉高可是主委你沒有發現在民進黨政府在抗中保台的同時\n512725\t526390\t我們從中國大陸賺的錢一直在快速的下滑我可以看這個是審計部跟很多這個統計最近這五年民國109年到110年度我國出口到\n529551\t546021\t中國大陸早說的產品出口值介於149億美元到259億美元光是最近這兩年民國110年到113年度呈現負成長少了多少18.76%一個是減了23%我們從大陸那邊賺的錢減少了將近四分之一\n554265\t583516\t減少了四分之一那現在更恐怖的是什麼我們本來要這筆錢就從美國去賺嘛我們去年從美國賺了739億對不對可是現在危機來了因為這個刀關稅衝擊川普的意思就是你賺了我的錢我要拿回來啦所以美國那邊會不會減少這是一個危機更重要的現在還要走我們不是一直在強調要去加入一些七一的經濟對不對我們看一下這個是審計部最新的決算報告他說我們政府啊\n585981\t610482\t這個國發會應該有接到啦這是審計部的結算報告政府最近這幾年積極在推動國際經貿的這個拓展要去爭取出國產業的對外貿易的立足點的平等你看人家國與國之間都是很多都是零關稅自由貿易對不對我們已經要簽訂加入七億整合協定已經十幾年了可是現在申請加入包括CPTPP兩年到現在還沒進來\n611957\t636170\t沒有發現所以相對你大陸那邊ECOQUA的你現在少了那麼多錢一年少了四分之一的錢喔從大陸賺的錢喔而且越來越在抗中保台越來越少結果從美國賺的錢美國現在川普出手可能會降下來你現在跟東協跟其他國家你要申請這個國際的這個冠帽的到現在進不去啊因為中國的反對我們現在這幾個全部都是中國反對\n637386\t659904\t那如果中國不反對,我認為我們的機會都很大啦中國一定反對嘛,中國對台灣的打壓是無時不刻影響他一直在打壓我們所以呢,我們自己也要有做好準備,做好防衛啦所以注意這上面準備,而且要突破啊,人們要看你是要突破嘛\n660484\t681890\t我剛剛講這三個點都很重要對不對中國大陸抗中保台之下收入減少了美國看起來本來是高的可是可能會往下掉因為川普出手了接下來你跟這個經濟貿易這一塊你要加入的這個國際組織現在都是停所以是不是這一塊要趕快再一突破要多加強我們會繼續努力啦但是我們不會再像打壓我們的人屈服啦\n682590\t706802\t現在當然不能欺負啦 重點是自己要自立自強 你自己這條路要趕快去開出來先是審計部的決算報告喔這是要求國發會也要做改正的喔你要面對這個 你要回答審計部喔後來 最後問一個很重要的題這幾天 光電板 山也光電板 海也光電板 製縫池也光電板 農地也是光電板\n708254\t735274\t引起了全民的抗議 現在光電板已經卡住了而且這次颱風一來破損的壞掉了 甚至有些都已經堆到這個農地上面去了民怨非常的深 我來看一下審計部怎麼講新潔部他們最近提了一個報告說政府的太陽能這個光電啊這也是你管的 你本來訂一個目標嘛 對不對訂一個目標嘛 結果審計部現在審理出來的\n737349\t744100\t跳票一再再跳票特別是在魚電工生這一塊魚電工生就是下面養魚上面有光電板\n746384\t771313\t你們訂的木片到現在達成率是多少您提到這個漁電工生我們現在在我們也看到這次在家也有廠商他其實是放在他的儲存櫃跟屋頂上一個新的模式這個新的模式讓他度過了五天這個斷電的時間那其實我們在台南也有廠商他們就是\n772713\t792037\t養魚業者自己做的新型漁電工生他們自己覺得效果很好所以我們現在在試著搭配這些一起來推廣他們覺得養魚業者覺得比較好的模式我們希望推廣給業者達到合作另外我們也在協調農業部就是說過去漁電工生如果是他必須要養魚的部分可以免費給到農業青年\n800879\t828558\t得到免費的餘溫來養魚然後達到一個三贏的角色主委我現在跟你講的是那我們逐步希望來改善那至於他的那個房台的強化我們我想我們也會找經濟部來協商看看經濟部可不可以在這個部分做一個強化那再來我們現在所有的這個光電要設置一定要經過溝通才能送案那這個溝通的部分我們現在也做了做了比較大的改善就是說我們分兩個區一個區是在地居民\n831079\t851079\t一個是不是在地居民那這樣的話我們可以分清楚在地人的聲音是什麼那這些都做過才申請我們要一起努力不過現在兩個最大的問題這個都是你國發會也是我們國家定下的目標一個是發電量嘛餘電共生的發電量第二個就是魚不能夠餘電共生結果魚死了\n852660\t873174\t電才來 甚至是 於此的電嚴重的缺乏少了非常多現在兩個目標 第一個你看喔 這些都是你訂的目標喔113年跟115年你訂的目標的達成率啊不到一半 到了115年 這個是省紀部最新的結算報告大家看一下 達成率只有多少\n874195\t896298\t你本來要達成的115年底的達成率是4428MW到目前為止只達成了22.52%欸你整個標準只達成了大概五分之一欸連七成都不到欸所以主委檢討兩個事情 主委你的目標是不是定的太高誤會還是中間出了什麼問題\n897932\t912047\t你大概一個月好不好一個月檢討一下為什麼打成立省然後講你 你也是要回應給省紀部的啦清潔波對應你的目標我不要用打臉就說這個落差真的太大了當初準備訂了然後打成立查這些因為是訂的目標不是我們訂的\n913710\t929728\t這是漁業署定的目標啦那我們來溝通吧漁業署容易不提上去嘛那我們跟委員一個說我們政府國發會定這個目標漁業署定這個目標竟然達成力不到七成發電量不到七成\n931149\t944554\t不到三成這是多嚴重的一個事情那第二個我給你我找他們給你一個報告我們一起弄一下那一個月內給我一份報告這個你也要回給那個審計部嘛那另外就是很多魚都死掉了\n945886\t959757\t違反了漁電共生的原則好不好這個也是非常嚴重的這個我是問過農業部長然後省紀部這次也講也是有七成都沒有達成這個魚的養殖也並同一個月檢討好不好好謝謝好我們現在接下來請\n973646\t974868\t我們謝一鳳召委來質詢\n","txt":"大家謝謝 請大家注意\n主委今天台灣的時間早上凌晨四點川普公布對我們晶片跟半導體100%我剛剛看了你的答詢像真正的癥結是什麼川普要的就是美國生產嘛對不對那相對之下我們現在要解決的問題是不是因為他課了這麼高的一個關稅我們的半導體會不會外移非常嚴重\n他不只課這個關稅100%喔他有個計畫嘛 對不對他說你如果要我美國投資 對不對還是說你有投資計畫我就是領嘛那這個像在拔河啊川普都出招了他也跟你講得那麼清楚啊我要你的半導體他之前說你把我的晶片都偷走了\n那這樣會不會導致 會不會導致台灣的半導體 現在是全州都去喔不是只有台電去喔 上中下游在這段時間你應該有知道那個整個狀況嗎很多相關的業者都過去了嘛會不會因為今天的這個100%導致我們的半導體的產業更加速的外移到美國去這應該不是外移喔 我們過去有外移的情形是很多中小型的企業把這邊關掉到了別的地方去生產\n那現在這個不是萬一是全球佈局就是他跟在台灣我們來看建設來看現在台積電一廠做完再蓋二廠但是台積電現在在高雄在嘉義這些地方都在建廠包括台中也要再建新廠其實這邊的建台積電在台灣的投資遠超過在美國的投資如果像您是專家就很清楚在三個廠去的時候大家就在看\n這個大概產能可以佔台積電多少那時候大家估計都在6%多那事實上台積電以外銷美國來看現在在1%上下其實都沒有那麼多它不是外移它是全球佈局的部分他認為外移這個字可以變成是全球佈局兩種他如果把台灣關掉\n過去就是外移就跟移民一樣有些會不會關掉關掉了有沒有關掉是個問號但台積電所有的先進製程都在台灣那投資金額是有限的嘛對不對就是有排擠嘛例如說本來要在台灣要投資一千億嘛那因為我美國這個高關稅我只要有一半到那邊去那台灣投資當然就減少囉\n這個您是專家一定更清楚每個企業在進行投資的時候一定會看到他的他手上的資金流量來然後看他的佈局那您對企業比較了解一定很清楚沒有一個企業會去蓋一個廠擺在那裡花一千億然後沒有人買對不對\n所以它一定是有訂單它才會往前移動那第二個事情是它在資金的佈局上面很明顯它在台灣在建廠非常多遠比美國多很多那就很明顯它的資金的投資在這邊那台積電的資金流量一定是控制得非常嚴謹的我們做兩個非常具體的指標第一個有沒有因為本來要在台灣的這個投資或者它的產能現在到美國去這是馬上看得到的喔\n因為你是個企業你現在一定要想嘛我在台灣生產然後在美國生產美國這邊要到在台灣可能要100%那到那邊是零沒有這個我們就不用爭辯這個就未來很快就可以看得到有沒有影響到台灣的投資或者某些產業的這個外移我們知道事實\n這有一個證明點這個證明點就是說美國的產能有沒有人包下來美國做的有沒有買家如果沒有的話就會吻合你剛才講的但如果有那就另外一個看法了\n那我現在的瞭解是說他是確定要有訂單他才會生產目前是這樣的狀況所以他不會有空置才能你只要看產能利用率就很清楚了你應該比我了解我們剛剛這樣討論我要求兩個東西好不好就是未來辦\n開始要你要去推估就是經過這百分之百這個衝擊完之後不管是外移或者是全球布局要兩個東西第一個在投資台灣的這個金額有沒有減少或是有哪些加速到美國去投資影響到台灣把這兩個做個整理好不好金額跟投資額的加速這個都很明顯很快就看得到了好不好因為這個要訪談我們大概只能訪談主要代表廠商啦因為這個蠻大的量\n你先反彈幾個比較有代表性的好那我們更具體的你是我們國家這個公股董事台積電的公股董事嘛台積電現在面臨兩個很重要的挑戰一個是投資金額川普一直在加碼一直在加碼今天最新的他講的不是三千億喔兩千億當然也有可能再跳回去三千億不過這金額都很大\n兩千億是增加多少?目前是1650元1650元是台積電發言人很確定的在回應數字那如果照川普講的至少要增加350億的美金350億美金是多少?一條耶中央政府總預算的三分之一耶那這筆錢是本來要投資在台灣的會不會到美國去?這個是一個考量點對不對那你的了解你是公股公股的這個董事你對於現在到底到美國投資到底是多少?\n內部你們有沒有評估過投資就是1650目前所以雖然川普現在是喊價嗎還是已經很具體已經有跟你們要求還沒有我想這個民間的事情當然是以台積電發言人為主你也知道董事大概就沒辦法講太多但是就我的了解目前還是在1650站在公股董事的這個代表國家去你比較支持再繼續加碼嗎還是留在1650\n我的看法是這樣子看生意了你的訂單有沒有所有的企業都是照這個走那第二個是我們看下來在高雄六個廠的計畫沒有變然後其實嘉義的廠的計畫沒有變尤其嘉義的投資其實你應該知道不只兩個廠對不對那再加上台南跟台中所以他的投資\n投資量能而且您可以看到目前最先進的都在臺灣所以他不會改變那我們現在最守住的就是最先進的製程一定在臺灣所以主委我們跟全民承諾在對美國加大投資的同時臺灣一定要顧到對不對你剛講這些廠我們要顧到就是不能少只能增加最新的技術一定在臺灣來來來你剛講新的你現在講到第二個就是我要講的第二個危機理工核心技術來\n現在川普跟美國要求的是什麼?不是只有生價金了啦他要求Intel我們要合股對不對?要去買多少?變成49%對不對?所以要問公股董事啊你們內部有沒有討論過如果要去要去跟Intel做這麼大的一個投資49%\n表示51%還是英特爾主導嘛為什麼要去美國為什麼要做這個要求要去救英特爾嘛對不對我上次國元跟你報告一下上次我就有回應到英特爾就造成美國的股市股價就下滑了所以我想我是不建議我們可以私下聊聊但是我不建議我們在不公開討論我們不用像經濟部長多智慧講說去入股合併救他們雖然上次沒有影響到台灣但是影響到美國股價上了好多媒體\n有內部評估可是我們還不公開啦OK好那就我們私底下再來問好來我接下來問兩個很重要的事情這都是你主管的重要的那個我們現在啊面臨的是美國的關稅一直在拉高可是主委你沒有發現在民進黨政府在抗中保台的同時\n我們從中國大陸賺的錢一直在快速的下滑我可以看這個是審計部跟很多這個統計最近這五年民國109年到110年度我國出口到\n中國大陸早說的產品出口值介於149億美元到259億美元光是最近這兩年民國110年到113年度呈現負成長少了多少18.76%一個是減了23%我們從大陸那邊賺的錢減少了將近四分之一\n減少了四分之一那現在更恐怖的是什麼我們本來要這筆錢就從美國去賺嘛我們去年從美國賺了739億對不對可是現在危機來了因為這個刀關稅衝擊川普的意思就是你賺了我的錢我要拿回來啦所以美國那邊會不會減少這是一個危機更重要的現在還要走我們不是一直在強調要去加入一些七一的經濟對不對我們看一下這個是審計部最新的決算報告他說我們政府啊\n這個國發會應該有接到啦這是審計部的結算報告政府最近這幾年積極在推動國際經貿的這個拓展要去爭取出國產業的對外貿易的立足點的平等你看人家國與國之間都是很多都是零關稅自由貿易對不對我們已經要簽訂加入七億整合協定已經十幾年了可是現在申請加入包括CPTPP兩年到現在還沒進來\n沒有發現所以相對你大陸那邊ECOQUA的你現在少了那麼多錢一年少了四分之一的錢喔從大陸賺的錢喔而且越來越在抗中保台越來越少結果從美國賺的錢美國現在川普出手可能會降下來你現在跟東協跟其他國家你要申請這個國際的這個冠帽的到現在進不去啊因為中國的反對我們現在這幾個全部都是中國反對\n那如果中國不反對,我認為我們的機會都很大啦中國一定反對嘛,中國對台灣的打壓是無時不刻影響他一直在打壓我們所以呢,我們自己也要有做好準備,做好防衛啦所以注意這上面準備,而且要突破啊,人們要看你是要突破嘛\n我剛剛講這三個點都很重要對不對中國大陸抗中保台之下收入減少了美國看起來本來是高的可是可能會往下掉因為川普出手了接下來你跟這個經濟貿易這一塊你要加入的這個國際組織現在都是停所以是不是這一塊要趕快再一突破要多加強我們會繼續努力啦但是我們不會再像打壓我們的人屈服啦\n現在當然不能欺負啦 重點是自己要自立自強 你自己這條路要趕快去開出來先是審計部的決算報告喔這是要求國發會也要做改正的喔你要面對這個 你要回答審計部喔後來 最後問一個很重要的題這幾天 光電板 山也光電板 海也光電板 製縫池也光電板 農地也是光電板\n引起了全民的抗議 現在光電板已經卡住了而且這次颱風一來破損的壞掉了 甚至有些都已經堆到這個農地上面去了民怨非常的深 我來看一下審計部怎麼講新潔部他們最近提了一個報告說政府的太陽能這個光電啊這也是你管的 你本來訂一個目標嘛 對不對訂一個目標嘛 結果審計部現在審理出來的\n跳票一再再跳票特別是在魚電工生這一塊魚電工生就是下面養魚上面有光電板\n你們訂的木片到現在達成率是多少您提到這個漁電工生我們現在在我們也看到這次在家也有廠商他其實是放在他的儲存櫃跟屋頂上一個新的模式這個新的模式讓他度過了五天這個斷電的時間那其實我們在台南也有廠商他們就是\n養魚業者自己做的新型漁電工生他們自己覺得效果很好所以我們現在在試著搭配這些一起來推廣他們覺得養魚業者覺得比較好的模式我們希望推廣給業者達到合作另外我們也在協調農業部就是說過去漁電工生如果是他必須要養魚的部分可以免費給到農業青年\n得到免費的餘溫來養魚然後達到一個三贏的角色主委我現在跟你講的是那我們逐步希望來改善那至於他的那個房台的強化我們我想我們也會找經濟部來協商看看經濟部可不可以在這個部分做一個強化那再來我們現在所有的這個光電要設置一定要經過溝通才能送案那這個溝通的部分我們現在也做了做了比較大的改善就是說我們分兩個區一個區是在地居民\n一個是不是在地居民那這樣的話我們可以分清楚在地人的聲音是什麼那這些都做過才申請我們要一起努力不過現在兩個最大的問題這個都是你國發會也是我們國家定下的目標一個是發電量嘛餘電共生的發電量第二個就是魚不能夠餘電共生結果魚死了\n電才來 甚至是 於此的電嚴重的缺乏少了非常多現在兩個目標 第一個你看喔 這些都是你訂的目標喔113年跟115年你訂的目標的達成率啊不到一半 到了115年 這個是省紀部最新的結算報告大家看一下 達成率只有多少\n你本來要達成的115年底的達成率是4428MW到目前為止只達成了22.52%欸你整個標準只達成了大概五分之一欸連七成都不到欸所以主委檢討兩個事情 主委你的目標是不是定的太高誤會還是中間出了什麼問題\n你大概一個月好不好一個月檢討一下為什麼打成立省然後講你 你也是要回應給省紀部的啦清潔波對應你的目標我不要用打臉就說這個落差真的太大了當初準備訂了然後打成立查這些因為是訂的目標不是我們訂的\n這是漁業署定的目標啦那我們來溝通吧漁業署容易不提上去嘛那我們跟委員一個說我們政府國發會定這個目標漁業署定這個目標竟然達成力不到七成發電量不到七成\n不到三成這是多嚴重的一個事情那第二個我給你我找他們給你一個報告我們一起弄一下那一個月內給我一份報告這個你也要回給那個審計部嘛那另外就是很多魚都死掉了\n違反了漁電共生的原則好不好這個也是非常嚴重的這個我是問過農業部長然後省紀部這次也講也是有七成都沒有達成這個魚的養殖也並同一個月檢討好不好好謝謝好我們現在接下來請\n我們謝一鳳召委來質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:23.558 --> 00:24.342\n大家謝謝請大家注意\n\n00:36.060 --> 00:58.100\n主委今天台灣的時間早上凌晨四點川普公布對我們晶片跟半導體100%我剛剛看了你的答詢像真正的癥結是什麼川普要的就是美國生產嘛對不對那相對之下我們現在要解決的問題是不是因為他課了這麼高的一個關稅我們的半導體會不會外移非常嚴重\n\n00:59.653 --> 01:15.820\n他不只課這個關稅100%喔他有個計畫嘛對不對他說你如果要我美國投資對不對還是說你有投資計畫我就是領嘛那這個像在拔河啊川普都出招了他也跟你講得那麼清楚啊我要你的半導體他之前說你把我的晶片都偷走了\n\n01:17.368 --> 01:45.817\n那這樣會不會導致會不會導致台灣的半導體現在是全州都去喔不是只有台電去喔上中下游在這段時間你應該有知道那個整個狀況嗎很多相關的業者都過去了嘛會不會因為今天的這個100%導致我們的半導體的產業更加速的外移到美國去這應該不是外移喔我們過去有外移的情形是很多中小型的企業把這邊關掉到了別的地方去生產\n\n01:47.037 --> 02:14.632\n那現在這個不是萬一是全球佈局就是他跟在台灣我們來看建設來看現在台積電一廠做完再蓋二廠但是台積電現在在高雄在嘉義這些地方都在建廠包括台中也要再建新廠其實這邊的建台積電在台灣的投資遠超過在美國的投資如果像您是專家就很清楚在三個廠去的時候大家就在看\n\n02:15.492 --> 02:34.365\n這個大概產能可以佔台積電多少那時候大家估計都在6%多那事實上台積電以外銷美國來看現在在1%上下其實都沒有那麼多它不是外移它是全球佈局的部分他認為外移這個字可以變成是全球佈局兩種他如果把台灣關掉\n\n02:39.128 --> 02:56.821\n過去就是外移就跟移民一樣有些會不會關掉關掉了有沒有關掉是個問號但台積電所有的先進製程都在台灣那投資金額是有限的嘛對不對就是有排擠嘛例如說本來要在台灣要投資一千億嘛那因為我美國這個高關稅我只要有一半到那邊去那台灣投資當然就減少囉\n\n02:58.603 --> 03:15.397\n這個您是專家一定更清楚每個企業在進行投資的時候一定會看到他的他手上的資金流量來然後看他的佈局那您對企業比較了解一定很清楚沒有一個企業會去蓋一個廠擺在那裡花一千億然後沒有人買對不對\n\n03:16.918 --> 03:41.903\n所以它一定是有訂單它才會往前移動那第二個事情是它在資金的佈局上面很明顯它在台灣在建廠非常多遠比美國多很多那就很明顯它的資金的投資在這邊那台積電的資金流量一定是控制得非常嚴謹的我們做兩個非常具體的指標第一個有沒有因為本來要在台灣的這個投資或者它的產能現在到美國去這是馬上看得到的喔\n\n03:42.803 --> 03:57.951\n因為你是個企業你現在一定要想嘛我在台灣生產然後在美國生產美國這邊要到在台灣可能要100%那到那邊是零沒有這個我們就不用爭辯這個就未來很快就可以看得到有沒有影響到台灣的投資或者某些產業的這個外移我們知道事實\n\n03:59.131 --> 04:15.636\n這有一個證明點這個證明點就是說美國的產能有沒有人包下來美國做的有沒有買家如果沒有的話就會吻合你剛才講的但如果有那就另外一個看法了\n\n04:16.056 --> 04:25.728\n那我現在的瞭解是說他是確定要有訂單他才會生產目前是這樣的狀況所以他不會有空置才能你只要看產能利用率就很清楚了你應該比我了解我們剛剛這樣討論我要求兩個東西好不好就是未來辦\n\n04:33.958 --> 04:59.378\n開始要你要去推估就是經過這百分之百這個衝擊完之後不管是外移或者是全球布局要兩個東西第一個在投資台灣的這個金額有沒有減少或是有哪些加速到美國去投資影響到台灣把這兩個做個整理好不好金額跟投資額的加速這個都很明顯很快就看得到了好不好因為這個要訪談我們大概只能訪談主要代表廠商啦因為這個蠻大的量\n\n05:00.517 --> 05:21.695\n你先反彈幾個比較有代表性的好那我們更具體的你是我們國家這個公股董事台積電的公股董事嘛台積電現在面臨兩個很重要的挑戰一個是投資金額川普一直在加碼一直在加碼今天最新的他講的不是三千億喔兩千億當然也有可能再跳回去三千億不過這金額都很大\n\n05:22.805 --> 05:51.529\n兩千億是增加多少?目前是1650元1650元是台積電發言人很確定的在回應數字那如果照川普講的至少要增加350億的美金350億美金是多少?一條耶中央政府總預算的三分之一耶那這筆錢是本來要投資在台灣的會不會到美國去?這個是一個考量點對不對那你的了解你是公股公股的這個董事你對於現在到底到美國投資到底是多少?\n\n05:53.048 --> 06:18.654\n內部你們有沒有評估過投資就是1650目前所以雖然川普現在是喊價嗎還是已經很具體已經有跟你們要求還沒有我想這個民間的事情當然是以台積電發言人為主你也知道董事大概就沒辦法講太多但是就我的了解目前還是在1650站在公股董事的這個代表國家去你比較支持再繼續加碼嗎還是留在1650\n\n06:21.447 --> 06:49.427\n我的看法是這樣子看生意了你的訂單有沒有所有的企業都是照這個走那第二個是我們看下來在高雄六個廠的計畫沒有變然後其實嘉義的廠的計畫沒有變尤其嘉義的投資其實你應該知道不只兩個廠對不對那再加上台南跟台中所以他的投資\n\n06:50.188 --> 07:16.121\n投資量能而且您可以看到目前最先進的都在臺灣所以他不會改變那我們現在最守住的就是最先進的製程一定在臺灣所以主委我們跟全民承諾在對美國加大投資的同時臺灣一定要顧到對不對你剛講這些廠我們要顧到就是不能少只能增加最新的技術一定在臺灣來來來你剛講新的你現在講到第二個就是我要講的第二個危機理工核心技術來\n\n07:17.482 --> 07:39.390\n現在川普跟美國要求的是什麼?不是只有生價金了啦他要求Intel我們要合股對不對?要去買多少?變成49%對不對?所以要問公股董事啊你們內部有沒有討論過如果要去要去跟Intel做這麼大的一個投資49%\n\n07:41.656 --> 08:09.781\n表示51%還是英特爾主導嘛為什麼要去美國為什麼要做這個要求要去救英特爾嘛對不對我上次國元跟你報告一下上次我就有回應到英特爾就造成美國的股市股價就下滑了所以我想我是不建議我們可以私下聊聊但是我不建議我們在不公開討論我們不用像經濟部長多智慧講說去入股合併救他們雖然上次沒有影響到台灣但是影響到美國股價上了好多媒體\n\n08:10.501 --> 08:30.538\n有內部評估可是我們還不公開啦OK好那就我們私底下再來問好來我接下來問兩個很重要的事情這都是你主管的重要的那個我們現在啊面臨的是美國的關稅一直在拉高可是主委你沒有發現在民進黨政府在抗中保台的同時\n\n08:32.725 --> 08:46.390\n我們從中國大陸賺的錢一直在快速的下滑我可以看這個是審計部跟很多這個統計最近這五年民國109年到110年度我國出口到\n\n08:49.551 --> 09:06.021\n中國大陸早說的產品出口值介於149億美元到259億美元光是最近這兩年民國110年到113年度呈現負成長少了多少18.76%一個是減了23%我們從大陸那邊賺的錢減少了將近四分之一\n\n09:14.265 --> 09:43.516\n減少了四分之一那現在更恐怖的是什麼我們本來要這筆錢就從美國去賺嘛我們去年從美國賺了739億對不對可是現在危機來了因為這個刀關稅衝擊川普的意思就是你賺了我的錢我要拿回來啦所以美國那邊會不會減少這是一個危機更重要的現在還要走我們不是一直在強調要去加入一些七一的經濟對不對我們看一下這個是審計部最新的決算報告他說我們政府啊\n\n09:45.981 --> 10:10.482\n這個國發會應該有接到啦這是審計部的結算報告政府最近這幾年積極在推動國際經貿的這個拓展要去爭取出國產業的對外貿易的立足點的平等你看人家國與國之間都是很多都是零關稅自由貿易對不對我們已經要簽訂加入七億整合協定已經十幾年了可是現在申請加入包括CPTPP兩年到現在還沒進來\n\n10:11.957 --> 10:36.170\n沒有發現所以相對你大陸那邊ECOQUA的你現在少了那麼多錢一年少了四分之一的錢喔從大陸賺的錢喔而且越來越在抗中保台越來越少結果從美國賺的錢美國現在川普出手可能會降下來你現在跟東協跟其他國家你要申請這個國際的這個冠帽的到現在進不去啊因為中國的反對我們現在這幾個全部都是中國反對\n\n10:37.386 --> 10:59.904\n那如果中國不反對,我認為我們的機會都很大啦中國一定反對嘛,中國對台灣的打壓是無時不刻影響他一直在打壓我們所以呢,我們自己也要有做好準備,做好防衛啦所以注意這上面準備,而且要突破啊,人們要看你是要突破嘛\n\n11:00.484 --> 11:21.890\n我剛剛講這三個點都很重要對不對中國大陸抗中保台之下收入減少了美國看起來本來是高的可是可能會往下掉因為川普出手了接下來你跟這個經濟貿易這一塊你要加入的這個國際組織現在都是停所以是不是這一塊要趕快再一突破要多加強我們會繼續努力啦但是我們不會再像打壓我們的人屈服啦\n\n11:22.590 --> 11:46.802\n現在當然不能欺負啦重點是自己要自立自強你自己這條路要趕快去開出來先是審計部的決算報告喔這是要求國發會也要做改正的喔你要面對這個你要回答審計部喔後來最後問一個很重要的題這幾天光電板山也光電板海也光電板製縫池也光電板農地也是光電板\n\n11:48.254 --> 12:15.274\n引起了全民的抗議現在光電板已經卡住了而且這次颱風一來破損的壞掉了甚至有些都已經堆到這個農地上面去了民怨非常的深我來看一下審計部怎麼講新潔部他們最近提了一個報告說政府的太陽能這個光電啊這也是你管的你本來訂一個目標嘛對不對訂一個目標嘛結果審計部現在審理出來的\n\n12:17.349 --> 12:24.100\n跳票一再再跳票特別是在魚電工生這一塊魚電工生就是下面養魚上面有光電板\n\n12:26.384 --> 12:51.313\n你們訂的木片到現在達成率是多少您提到這個漁電工生我們現在在我們也看到這次在家也有廠商他其實是放在他的儲存櫃跟屋頂上一個新的模式這個新的模式讓他度過了五天這個斷電的時間那其實我們在台南也有廠商他們就是\n\n12:52.713 --> 13:12.037\n養魚業者自己做的新型漁電工生他們自己覺得效果很好所以我們現在在試著搭配這些一起來推廣他們覺得養魚業者覺得比較好的模式我們希望推廣給業者達到合作另外我們也在協調農業部就是說過去漁電工生如果是他必須要養魚的部分可以免費給到農業青年\n\n13:20.879 --> 13:48.558\n得到免費的餘溫來養魚然後達到一個三贏的角色主委我現在跟你講的是那我們逐步希望來改善那至於他的那個房台的強化我們我想我們也會找經濟部來協商看看經濟部可不可以在這個部分做一個強化那再來我們現在所有的這個光電要設置一定要經過溝通才能送案那這個溝通的部分我們現在也做了做了比較大的改善就是說我們分兩個區一個區是在地居民\n\n13:51.079 --> 14:11.079\n一個是不是在地居民那這樣的話我們可以分清楚在地人的聲音是什麼那這些都做過才申請我們要一起努力不過現在兩個最大的問題這個都是你國發會也是我們國家定下的目標一個是發電量嘛餘電共生的發電量第二個就是魚不能夠餘電共生結果魚死了\n\n14:12.660 --> 14:33.174\n電才來甚至是於此的電嚴重的缺乏少了非常多現在兩個目標第一個你看喔這些都是你訂的目標喔113年跟115年你訂的目標的達成率啊不到一半到了115年這個是省紀部最新的結算報告大家看一下達成率只有多少\n\n14:34.195 --> 14:56.298\n你本來要達成的115年底的達成率是4428MW到目前為止只達成了22.52%欸你整個標準只達成了大概五分之一欸連七成都不到欸所以主委檢討兩個事情主委你的目標是不是定的太高誤會還是中間出了什麼問題\n\n14:57.932 --> 15:12.047\n你大概一個月好不好一個月檢討一下為什麼打成立省然後講你你也是要回應給省紀部的啦清潔波對應你的目標我不要用打臉就說這個落差真的太大了當初準備訂了然後打成立查這些因為是訂的目標不是我們訂的\n\n15:13.710 --> 15:29.728\n這是漁業署定的目標啦那我們來溝通吧漁業署容易不提上去嘛那我們跟委員一個說我們政府國發會定這個目標漁業署定這個目標竟然達成力不到七成發電量不到七成\n\n15:31.149 --> 15:44.554\n不到三成這是多嚴重的一個事情那第二個我給你我找他們給你一個報告我們一起弄一下那一個月內給我一份報告這個你也要回給那個審計部嘛那另外就是很多魚都死掉了\n\n15:45.886 --> 15:59.757\n違反了漁電共生的原則好不好這個也是非常嚴重的這個我是問過農業部長然後省紀部這次也講也是有七成都沒有達成這個魚的養殖也並同一個月檢討好不好好謝謝好我們現在接下來請\n\n16:13.646 --> 16:14.868\n我們謝一鳳召委來質詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":23.558,"end":24.342,"text":"大家謝謝 請大家注意"},{"start":36.06,"end":58.1,"text":"主委今天台灣的時間早上凌晨四點川普公布對我們晶片跟半導體100%我剛剛看了你的答詢像真正的癥結是什麼川普要的就是美國生產嘛對不對那相對之下我們現在要解決的問題是不是因為他課了這麼高的一個關稅我們的半導體會不會外移非常嚴重"},{"start":59.653,"end":75.82,"text":"他不只課這個關稅100%喔他有個計畫嘛 對不對他說你如果要我美國投資 對不對還是說你有投資計畫我就是領嘛那這個像在拔河啊川普都出招了他也跟你講得那麼清楚啊我要你的半導體他之前說你把我的晶片都偷走了"},{"start":77.368,"end":105.817,"text":"那這樣會不會導致 會不會導致台灣的半導體 現在是全州都去喔不是只有台電去喔 上中下游在這段時間你應該有知道那個整個狀況嗎很多相關的業者都過去了嘛會不會因為今天的這個100%導致我們的半導體的產業更加速的外移到美國去這應該不是外移喔 我們過去有外移的情形是很多中小型的企業把這邊關掉到了別的地方去生產"},{"start":107.037,"end":134.632,"text":"那現在這個不是萬一是全球佈局就是他跟在台灣我們來看建設來看現在台積電一廠做完再蓋二廠但是台積電現在在高雄在嘉義這些地方都在建廠包括台中也要再建新廠其實這邊的建台積電在台灣的投資遠超過在美國的投資如果像您是專家就很清楚在三個廠去的時候大家就在看"},{"start":135.492,"end":154.365,"text":"這個大概產能可以佔台積電多少那時候大家估計都在6%多那事實上台積電以外銷美國來看現在在1%上下其實都沒有那麼多它不是外移它是全球佈局的部分他認為外移這個字可以變成是全球佈局兩種他如果把台灣關掉"},{"start":159.128,"end":176.821,"text":"過去就是外移就跟移民一樣有些會不會關掉關掉了有沒有關掉是個問號但台積電所有的先進製程都在台灣那投資金額是有限的嘛對不對就是有排擠嘛例如說本來要在台灣要投資一千億嘛那因為我美國這個高關稅我只要有一半到那邊去那台灣投資當然就減少囉"},{"start":178.603,"end":195.397,"text":"這個您是專家一定更清楚每個企業在進行投資的時候一定會看到他的他手上的資金流量來然後看他的佈局那您對企業比較了解一定很清楚沒有一個企業會去蓋一個廠擺在那裡花一千億然後沒有人買對不對"},{"start":196.918,"end":221.903,"text":"所以它一定是有訂單它才會往前移動那第二個事情是它在資金的佈局上面很明顯它在台灣在建廠非常多遠比美國多很多那就很明顯它的資金的投資在這邊那台積電的資金流量一定是控制得非常嚴謹的我們做兩個非常具體的指標第一個有沒有因為本來要在台灣的這個投資或者它的產能現在到美國去這是馬上看得到的喔"},{"start":222.803,"end":237.951,"text":"因為你是個企業你現在一定要想嘛我在台灣生產然後在美國生產美國這邊要到在台灣可能要100%那到那邊是零沒有這個我們就不用爭辯這個就未來很快就可以看得到有沒有影響到台灣的投資或者某些產業的這個外移我們知道事實"},{"start":239.131,"end":255.636,"text":"這有一個證明點這個證明點就是說美國的產能有沒有人包下來美國做的有沒有買家如果沒有的話就會吻合你剛才講的但如果有那就另外一個看法了"},{"start":256.056,"end":265.728,"text":"那我現在的瞭解是說他是確定要有訂單他才會生產目前是這樣的狀況所以他不會有空置才能你只要看產能利用率就很清楚了你應該比我了解我們剛剛這樣討論我要求兩個東西好不好就是未來辦"},{"start":273.958,"end":299.378,"text":"開始要你要去推估就是經過這百分之百這個衝擊完之後不管是外移或者是全球布局要兩個東西第一個在投資台灣的這個金額有沒有減少或是有哪些加速到美國去投資影響到台灣把這兩個做個整理好不好金額跟投資額的加速這個都很明顯很快就看得到了好不好因為這個要訪談我們大概只能訪談主要代表廠商啦因為這個蠻大的量"},{"start":300.517,"end":321.695,"text":"你先反彈幾個比較有代表性的好那我們更具體的你是我們國家這個公股董事台積電的公股董事嘛台積電現在面臨兩個很重要的挑戰一個是投資金額川普一直在加碼一直在加碼今天最新的他講的不是三千億喔兩千億當然也有可能再跳回去三千億不過這金額都很大"},{"start":322.805,"end":351.529,"text":"兩千億是增加多少?目前是1650元1650元是台積電發言人很確定的在回應數字那如果照川普講的至少要增加350億的美金350億美金是多少?一條耶中央政府總預算的三分之一耶那這筆錢是本來要投資在台灣的會不會到美國去?這個是一個考量點對不對那你的了解你是公股公股的這個董事你對於現在到底到美國投資到底是多少?"},{"start":353.048,"end":378.654,"text":"內部你們有沒有評估過投資就是1650目前所以雖然川普現在是喊價嗎還是已經很具體已經有跟你們要求還沒有我想這個民間的事情當然是以台積電發言人為主你也知道董事大概就沒辦法講太多但是就我的了解目前還是在1650站在公股董事的這個代表國家去你比較支持再繼續加碼嗎還是留在1650"},{"start":381.447,"end":409.427,"text":"我的看法是這樣子看生意了你的訂單有沒有所有的企業都是照這個走那第二個是我們看下來在高雄六個廠的計畫沒有變然後其實嘉義的廠的計畫沒有變尤其嘉義的投資其實你應該知道不只兩個廠對不對那再加上台南跟台中所以他的投資"},{"start":410.188,"end":436.121,"text":"投資量能而且您可以看到目前最先進的都在臺灣所以他不會改變那我們現在最守住的就是最先進的製程一定在臺灣所以主委我們跟全民承諾在對美國加大投資的同時臺灣一定要顧到對不對你剛講這些廠我們要顧到就是不能少只能增加最新的技術一定在臺灣來來來你剛講新的你現在講到第二個就是我要講的第二個危機理工核心技術來"},{"start":437.482,"end":459.39,"text":"現在川普跟美國要求的是什麼?不是只有生價金了啦他要求Intel我們要合股對不對?要去買多少?變成49%對不對?所以要問公股董事啊你們內部有沒有討論過如果要去要去跟Intel做這麼大的一個投資49%"},{"start":461.656,"end":489.781,"text":"表示51%還是英特爾主導嘛為什麼要去美國為什麼要做這個要求要去救英特爾嘛對不對我上次國元跟你報告一下上次我就有回應到英特爾就造成美國的股市股價就下滑了所以我想我是不建議我們可以私下聊聊但是我不建議我們在不公開討論我們不用像經濟部長多智慧講說去入股合併救他們雖然上次沒有影響到台灣但是影響到美國股價上了好多媒體"},{"start":490.501,"end":510.538,"text":"有內部評估可是我們還不公開啦OK好那就我們私底下再來問好來我接下來問兩個很重要的事情這都是你主管的重要的那個我們現在啊面臨的是美國的關稅一直在拉高可是主委你沒有發現在民進黨政府在抗中保台的同時"},{"start":512.725,"end":526.39,"text":"我們從中國大陸賺的錢一直在快速的下滑我可以看這個是審計部跟很多這個統計最近這五年民國109年到110年度我國出口到"},{"start":529.551,"end":546.021,"text":"中國大陸早說的產品出口值介於149億美元到259億美元光是最近這兩年民國110年到113年度呈現負成長少了多少18.76%一個是減了23%我們從大陸那邊賺的錢減少了將近四分之一"},{"start":554.265,"end":583.516,"text":"減少了四分之一那現在更恐怖的是什麼我們本來要這筆錢就從美國去賺嘛我們去年從美國賺了739億對不對可是現在危機來了因為這個刀關稅衝擊川普的意思就是你賺了我的錢我要拿回來啦所以美國那邊會不會減少這是一個危機更重要的現在還要走我們不是一直在強調要去加入一些七一的經濟對不對我們看一下這個是審計部最新的決算報告他說我們政府啊"},{"start":585.981,"end":610.482,"text":"這個國發會應該有接到啦這是審計部的結算報告政府最近這幾年積極在推動國際經貿的這個拓展要去爭取出國產業的對外貿易的立足點的平等你看人家國與國之間都是很多都是零關稅自由貿易對不對我們已經要簽訂加入七億整合協定已經十幾年了可是現在申請加入包括CPTPP兩年到現在還沒進來"},{"start":611.957,"end":636.17,"text":"沒有發現所以相對你大陸那邊ECOQUA的你現在少了那麼多錢一年少了四分之一的錢喔從大陸賺的錢喔而且越來越在抗中保台越來越少結果從美國賺的錢美國現在川普出手可能會降下來你現在跟東協跟其他國家你要申請這個國際的這個冠帽的到現在進不去啊因為中國的反對我們現在這幾個全部都是中國反對"},{"start":637.386,"end":659.904,"text":"那如果中國不反對,我認為我們的機會都很大啦中國一定反對嘛,中國對台灣的打壓是無時不刻影響他一直在打壓我們所以呢,我們自己也要有做好準備,做好防衛啦所以注意這上面準備,而且要突破啊,人們要看你是要突破嘛"},{"start":660.484,"end":681.89,"text":"我剛剛講這三個點都很重要對不對中國大陸抗中保台之下收入減少了美國看起來本來是高的可是可能會往下掉因為川普出手了接下來你跟這個經濟貿易這一塊你要加入的這個國際組織現在都是停所以是不是這一塊要趕快再一突破要多加強我們會繼續努力啦但是我們不會再像打壓我們的人屈服啦"},{"start":682.59,"end":706.802,"text":"現在當然不能欺負啦 重點是自己要自立自強 你自己這條路要趕快去開出來先是審計部的決算報告喔這是要求國發會也要做改正的喔你要面對這個 你要回答審計部喔後來 最後問一個很重要的題這幾天 光電板 山也光電板 海也光電板 製縫池也光電板 農地也是光電板"},{"start":708.254,"end":735.274,"text":"引起了全民的抗議 現在光電板已經卡住了而且這次颱風一來破損的壞掉了 甚至有些都已經堆到這個農地上面去了民怨非常的深 我來看一下審計部怎麼講新潔部他們最近提了一個報告說政府的太陽能這個光電啊這也是你管的 你本來訂一個目標嘛 對不對訂一個目標嘛 結果審計部現在審理出來的"},{"start":737.349,"end":744.1,"text":"跳票一再再跳票特別是在魚電工生這一塊魚電工生就是下面養魚上面有光電板"},{"start":746.384,"end":771.313,"text":"你們訂的木片到現在達成率是多少您提到這個漁電工生我們現在在我們也看到這次在家也有廠商他其實是放在他的儲存櫃跟屋頂上一個新的模式這個新的模式讓他度過了五天這個斷電的時間那其實我們在台南也有廠商他們就是"},{"start":772.713,"end":792.037,"text":"養魚業者自己做的新型漁電工生他們自己覺得效果很好所以我們現在在試著搭配這些一起來推廣他們覺得養魚業者覺得比較好的模式我們希望推廣給業者達到合作另外我們也在協調農業部就是說過去漁電工生如果是他必須要養魚的部分可以免費給到農業青年"},{"start":800.879,"end":828.558,"text":"得到免費的餘溫來養魚然後達到一個三贏的角色主委我現在跟你講的是那我們逐步希望來改善那至於他的那個房台的強化我們我想我們也會找經濟部來協商看看經濟部可不可以在這個部分做一個強化那再來我們現在所有的這個光電要設置一定要經過溝通才能送案那這個溝通的部分我們現在也做了做了比較大的改善就是說我們分兩個區一個區是在地居民"},{"start":831.079,"end":851.079,"text":"一個是不是在地居民那這樣的話我們可以分清楚在地人的聲音是什麼那這些都做過才申請我們要一起努力不過現在兩個最大的問題這個都是你國發會也是我們國家定下的目標一個是發電量嘛餘電共生的發電量第二個就是魚不能夠餘電共生結果魚死了"},{"start":852.66,"end":873.174,"text":"電才來 甚至是 於此的電嚴重的缺乏少了非常多現在兩個目標 第一個你看喔 這些都是你訂的目標喔113年跟115年你訂的目標的達成率啊不到一半 到了115年 這個是省紀部最新的結算報告大家看一下 達成率只有多少"},{"start":874.195,"end":896.298,"text":"你本來要達成的115年底的達成率是4428MW到目前為止只達成了22.52%欸你整個標準只達成了大概五分之一欸連七成都不到欸所以主委檢討兩個事情 主委你的目標是不是定的太高誤會還是中間出了什麼問題"},{"start":897.932,"end":912.047,"text":"你大概一個月好不好一個月檢討一下為什麼打成立省然後講你 你也是要回應給省紀部的啦清潔波對應你的目標我不要用打臉就說這個落差真的太大了當初準備訂了然後打成立查這些因為是訂的目標不是我們訂的"},{"start":913.71,"end":929.728,"text":"這是漁業署定的目標啦那我們來溝通吧漁業署容易不提上去嘛那我們跟委員一個說我們政府國發會定這個目標漁業署定這個目標竟然達成力不到七成發電量不到七成"},{"start":931.149,"end":944.554,"text":"不到三成這是多嚴重的一個事情那第二個我給你我找他們給你一個報告我們一起弄一下那一個月內給我一份報告這個你也要回給那個審計部嘛那另外就是很多魚都死掉了"},{"start":945.886,"end":959.757,"text":"違反了漁電共生的原則好不好這個也是非常嚴重的這個我是問過農業部長然後省紀部這次也講也是有七成都沒有達成這個魚的養殖也並同一個月檢討好不好好謝謝好我們現在接下來請"},{"start":973.646,"end":974.868,"text":"我們謝一鳳召委來質詢"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":399,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時27分）多謝主席，請主委。"],["主席（鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員代）：請主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，今天臺灣時間的凌晨4點，川普公布要對我們的晶片跟半導體課稅100%，我剛剛看了你的答詢，這個真正的癥結是什麼？川普要的就是美國生產嘛，對不對？相對之下，我們現在要解決的問題是不是因為它課了這麼高的關稅，我們的半導體會不會外移就非常嚴重。它不只是課這個關稅100%，它還有一個計畫，對不對？說是如果到美國投資，或是你有投資計畫，那就是0嘛！這個現在在拔河，美國川普都出招了，他也跟你講得那麼清楚，我要你的半導體，他之前是說你把我的晶片都偷走了，這樣會不會導致臺灣的半導體上、中、下游整組被搬過去，而不是只有台積電過去？像這段時間你應該知道那整個狀況吧？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我報告……"],["張委員啓楷：相關的業者都過去了嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["張委員啓楷：會不會因為今天的這個100%，導致我們半導體的產業更加速外移到美國去？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這應該不是外移，我們過去外移的情形是，很多中小型的企業把這邊關掉到別的地方去生產，現在這個不是外移而是全球布局，就是它的根在臺灣。我們以建設來看，現在台積電一廠做完在蓋二廠，但是台積電現在在高雄、嘉義這些地方都在建廠，包括臺中也要再建新廠，其實台積電在臺灣的投資遠超過在美國的投資。","像您是專家就很清楚，在3個廠區的時候大家就在看，這大概可以占台積電多少產能，那個時候大家估計都在百分之六點多，事實上以台積電外銷美國來看，現在是在1%上下，其實都沒有那麼多，它不是外移，是全球布局的部分。"],["張委員啓楷：主委講的喔！你認為「外移」這個詞可以變成是全球布局……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這是兩種，它如果把臺灣的關掉……"],["張委員啓楷：沒有完全衝突，不過，主委……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：它如果把臺灣的關掉過去就是外移，就跟移民一樣。"],["張委員啓楷：有沒有關掉是個問號，但是這個是重要的……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：但是台積電所有的先進製程都在臺灣。"],["張委員啓楷：投資金額是有限的，對不對？就是有排擠，例如它本來要在臺灣投資1,000億，後來因為美國這個高關稅，只好有一半到那邊去，所以在臺灣的投資當然就減少了，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個您是專家，一定更清楚，每個企業在進行投資的時候，一定會看到它手上的資金流量，還有看它的布局，您對企業比較了解，一定很清楚，沒有一個企業會花1,000億去蓋一個廠擺在那裡，卻沒有人買，對不對？所以它一定是有訂單，才會往前移動。","第二個事情是它在資金的布局上面很明顯，它在臺灣在建廠非常多，遠比在美國多很多，那就很明顯，它的資金投資在這邊，台積電的資金流量一定是控制得非常嚴謹的。"],["張委員啓楷：好，主委，我們用兩個非常具體的指標，第一個、有沒有本來要在臺灣的投資或者產能現在要到美國去？這是馬上看得到的，因為它是一個企業，現在一定要想，要在臺灣生產，還是要在美國生產，在臺灣可能要100%，在美國是0%，這個我們就不用爭辯，未來很快就可以看得到，有沒有影響到臺灣的投資，或者某些產業的外移，我們照事實……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，其實這有一個證明點，就是美國的產能有沒有人包下來，在美國做的有沒有買家，如果沒有的話，就會吻合你剛才講的，但是如果有，那就是另外一個看法了，我現在的了解是它是確定要有訂單，才會生產，目前是這樣的狀況，所以它不會有空置產能……"],["張委員啓楷：好，主委，我有兩個非常具體的要求，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：你只要看產能利用率就很清楚了……"],["張委員啓楷：對、對、對，針對我們剛剛的……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個你應該比我了解。"],["張委員啓楷：就我們剛剛的討論，我要求兩個東西，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["張委員啓楷：就是你要開始去推估，經過這個100%的衝擊之後，不管是外移或者是全球布局，我要兩個東西，第一個、在投資臺灣的金額有沒有減少？或者有哪些家數到美國去投資，影響到臺灣？把這兩個做個整理，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，這個我們……"],["張委員啓楷：金額及投資的家數……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：但是可能要……"],["張委員啓楷：這個都很明顯，很快就看得到了，好不好？你們做個統計。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個要訪談，我們大概只能訪談主要代表廠商，因為這個有滿大的量。"],["張委員啓楷：對，你先訪談幾個比較有代表性的。好，再來，我們講更具體的，你是台積電的公股董事……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是。"],["張委員啓楷：台積電現在面臨兩個很重要的挑戰，一個是投資金額，川普一直在加碼，今天最新的，他講的不是3,000億，是2,000億，當然也有可能再跳回去3,000億，不過，這個金額都很大，2,000億是增加多少？目前是1,650億……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：1,650億是台積電發言人很確定回應的數字。"],["張委員啓楷：如果照川普講的，至少要增加350億美金，350億美金是多少？1兆耶！中央政府總預算的三分之一耶！這筆錢是本來要投資在臺灣的，會不會到美國去？這個是一個考量點，對不對？你是公股董事，據你的了解，現在到美國投資的到底是多少，你們內部有沒有評估過？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前投資就是1,650億，沒有錯，那是在我們……"],["張委員啓楷：川普現在是在喊價嗎？還是已經有很具體跟你們要求？還沒有？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我想這個民間的事情當然是以台積電發言人為主，你也知道，董事大概就沒辦法講太多，但是就我的了解，目前還是在1,650億。"],["張委員啓楷：站在公股董事的立場，代表國家去，你比較支持再繼續加碼嗎？還是留在1,650億？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我的看法是看生意、訂單有沒有，所有的企業都是照這個走……"],["張委員啓楷：有訂單，可以賺到錢，就去了，要加。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：第二個是我們看下來，在高雄6個廠的計畫沒有變、嘉義廠的計畫沒有變，尤其是嘉義的投資，你應該知道不只2個廠，對不對？再加上臺南……"],["張委員啓楷：對、對、對，我很關心，所以嘉義和高雄，在國內的投資不能減少、不能變。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：和臺中，而且您可以看到，目前最先進的都在臺灣，所以它不會改變。那我們現在最要守住的就是最先進的製程一定在臺灣。"],["張委員啓楷：好，主委，所以我們跟全民承諾，在對美國加大投資的同時，臺灣一定要顧到，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我們……"],["張委員啓楷：你剛剛講的這些廠、8個廠……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們要顧到的就是……"],["張委員啓楷：投資不能少，只能增加。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：最新的技術一定在臺灣……"],["張委員啓楷：好，你剛剛講新的……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：臺灣的產能……"],["張委員啓楷：你現在講的就是我要講的第二個危機，就是核心技術。現在川普和美國要求的是什麼？不是只有增加金額，他要求我們要入股Intel，對不對？要去買多少？49%，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，這個是新聞……"],["張委員啓楷：所以要問公股董事，問台積電的公股董事，你們內部有沒有討論過，如果要對Intel做這麼大的投資，49%，49%表示有51%還是Intel主導……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我跟委員……"],["張委員啓楷：第二個、為什麼要去？美國為什麼要做這個要求？要去救Intel，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，跟你報告一下，上次我就有回應到Intel，結果就造成美國的股價下滑了，所以我想我們可以私下聊聊，但是我不建議我們在檯面上談。"],["張委員啓楷：不公開討論，我們不用像經濟部長郭智輝講去入股救他們是不可能的……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：雖然上次沒有影響到臺灣，但是影響到美國股價，上了好多媒體……"],["張委員啓楷：有內部評估，可是我們還不公開……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以……"],["張委員啓楷：好，我們私底下再來問。","我接下來問兩個很重要的事情，這個都是你主管的重要事情。我們現在面臨的是美國關稅一直在拉高，主委，可是你有沒有發現，在民進黨政府抗中保臺的同時，我們從中國大陸賺的錢一直在快速的下滑。我給你看，這個是審計部及很多單位的統計，最近這5年度（民國109年度到113年度）我國出口到中國大陸早收產品的出口值介於149億美元到252億美元，最近這兩年（民國111年度到113年度）都呈現負成長，少了多少？一個是減了18.76%，一個是減了23%，我們從大陸那邊賺的錢減少了將近四分之一。","現在更恐怖的是什麼？我們本來這筆錢就從美國去賺，我們去年從美國賺了739億，對不對？可是現在危機來了，因為高關稅衝擊，川普的意思就是我們賺了他們的錢，他們要拿回去，所以美國那邊會不會減少？這是一個危機。更重要的，現在國家要做的，我們不是一直在強調要去加入一些區域經濟協定，對不對？我們看一下，這個是審計部最新的決算報告，國發會應該有接到，它說政府最近這幾年積極在推動國際經貿關係的拓展，要去爭取出口產業對外貿易立足點的平等，你看人家國與國之間很多都是零關稅、自由貿易，對不對？我們要洽簽加入區域經濟整合協定已經十幾年了，現在已經提出申請的包括CPTPP，超過2年，可是到現在還沒有加入，有沒有發現？所以現在從大陸ECFA賺的少了那麼多錢，從大陸賺的錢一年少了四分之一，而且在抗中保臺之下，越來越少；從美國賺的錢，現在川普出手，可能會降下來；現在我們要跟東協、跟其他國家申請加入國際的、關貿的協定，到現在都進不去啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為中國的反對，我們現在這幾個全部都是中國反對，如果中國不反對，我認為我們的機會都很大。"],["張委員啓楷：中國一定反對嘛！中國對臺灣的打壓是無時無刻都在，所以我們要突破，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：您講對了，它一直在打壓我們，所以……"],["張委員啓楷：主委，對，面對別人的打壓，我們要突破嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們自己也要做好準備、做好防衛。"],["張委員啓楷：對，主委，所以做什麼準備？而且要突破，人民也是要看我們突破。我剛剛講的這三個點都很重要，對不對？從中國大陸賺的，在抗中保臺之下，收入減少了，從美國賺的，看起來本來是高的，可是可能會往下掉，因為川普出手了，接下來對於經濟貿易這一塊，我們要加入的國際組織現在都是停擺的，所以是不是這一塊要趕快再去突破，要多加強？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們會繼續努力，而且我們不會向打壓我們的人屈服。"],["張委員啓楷：對，當然不能屈服，重點是自己要自立自強，我們自己的這條路要趕快去開出來……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，我們一定會努力。"],["張委員啓楷：現在是審計部的決算報告要求國發會也要做改正的，你要面對這個，你要回答審計部。","再來，我問一個很重要的題，這幾天山也光電板、海也光電板、滯洪池也光電板、農地也是光電板，引起全民的抗議，現在光電板「淹跤目」了，而且這次颱風一來，破損的、壞掉的堆置，甚至有些都已經堆到農地上面去了，民怨非常的深。我們來看一下審計部怎麼講，審計部最近提了一個報告，說政府的太陽能光電，這也是你管的，你們本來訂了一個目標，對不對？審計部現在整理出來，結果是一再跳票，特別是在漁電共生這一塊，漁電共生就是下面養魚，上面有光電板，主委，你知道嗎？你們訂的目標到現在達成率是多少？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：您提到漁電共生，我們也看到這次在嘉義有廠商是放在它的儲存櫃跟屋頂上的一個新模式，這個新的模式讓它度過了五天斷電的時間。臺南也有廠商，就是養魚業者自己做新型漁電共生，他們覺得效果很好，所以我們現在在試著搭配這些一起來推廣，即養魚業者覺得比較好的模式，我們希望推廣給業者，達到合作。另外，我們也在協調農業部，過去漁電共生必須要養魚的部分，可以讓農業青年得到免費的魚塭來養魚，達到三贏的角色，我們希望逐步來改善。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，我現在跟你講的是經過……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：至於防颱的強化，我們也會找經濟部來協商，看看經濟部可不可以在這個部分強化。再來，現在所有的光電要設置一定要經過溝通才能送案，針對溝通的部分，我們現在也做了比較大的改善，就是我們會分兩個區，一個區是在地居民，另一個不是在地居民，這樣的話，可以分清楚在地人的聲音是什麼，這些都做過才能來申請。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，我們要一起努力。不過現在有兩個最大的問題，這個都是國發會，也是我們國家訂下的目標，第一個是漁電共生的發電量，第二個就是不能夠漁電共生，結果魚死了，電才來，甚至是魚死了，電嚴重的缺乏，少了非常多！現在有兩個目標：第一個、你看這都是你們訂的目標，113年跟115年你們訂的目標達成率不到一半。到了115年，這是審計部最新的決算報告，大家看一下，達成率只有多少？你本來115年底要達成的是4,428MW，到目前為止，只達成了22.52%，你訂的標準只達成了大概五分之一、連七成都不到，所以請主委檢討兩件事，你的目標是不是訂得太過好高騖遠，還是中間出了什麼問題？大概一個月，好不好？給你一個月檢討一下，為什麼達成率這麼低？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["張委員啓楷：老實講，你也是要回應審計部，審計部對於你的目標，我不要說是打臉，但落差真的太大了。當初怎麼會訂了，然後達成率差這麼多？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這是漁業署訂的目標，我們來溝通。"],["張委員啓楷：你們經管，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們來溝通。"],["張委員啓楷：農業部漁業署提上去，然後你們訂了這個目標。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒關係，我們溝通，給委員一個說明，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：政府、國發會訂這個目標，漁業署訂這個目標，達成率竟然不到七成、發電量不到三成，這是多嚴重的一件事情。第二個……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我找他們給你一個報告，我們也……"],["張委員啓楷：把它列為報告好好檢討，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["張委員啓楷：一個月內給我一份報告。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["張委員啓楷：反正這個你也要回給審計部。另外，很多魚都死掉了，違反了漁電共生的原則，這也是非常嚴重的，我問過農業部長，審計部這次也講有七成都沒有達成魚的養殖，也併同一個月內檢討，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請謝衣鳯召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":500,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-19","speakers":["謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","陳超明","邱志偉","賴士葆","李坤城","呂玉玲","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","廖先翔","葉元之","蔡易餘","林岱樺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":437,"meetingDate":["2025-08-07"],"gazette_id":"1147101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147101_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員就「美國對等關稅底定後，我國經濟未來之景氣情況及產業全球佈\n局新規劃」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147101_00010"}}}