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100.307, \"score\": 0.731}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"決\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 100.307, \"end\": 100.327, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}]}, {\"start\": 105.108, \"end\": 125.658, \"text\": \"謝謝委員 我想我們九院獎金事實上大概也感謝委員提這個問題因為外界一直認為說一定要留在原學校我們其實已經通過試 他可以跨縣市跨校採集因為那個學校可能他教了六年 因為接著他可能已經補上一個正式的老師所以他並沒有帶 這個是\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 105.108, \"end\": 105.749, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 105.749, \"end\": 105.909, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 105.909, \"end\": 106.249, \"score\": 0.787}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 106.249, \"end\": 106.529, \"score\": 0.692}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"九\", \"start\": 106.529, \"end\": 106.689, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 106.689, \"end\": 107.109, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"獎\"}, {\"word\": \"金\", \"start\": 107.109, \"end\": 107.309, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"事\", 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898.605, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,388 --> 00:00:15,142\n謝主席先有請曾耀部長跟彭副原署長請鄭部長彭署長貝子荀謝謝部長好\n\n2\n00:00:21,121 --> 00:00:38,657\n首先先詢問您一下就是上一次的質詢本席曾經提過偏遠地區學校教師久任獎金的問題當時本席是提到說偏鄉的主任或這個後任校長他如果介紹到教育局去那因為沒有實際服務在偏鄉的這個學校\n\n3\n00:00:41,420 --> 00:00:56,213\n所以就不能採計年資那這部分部長有答應說要研議按照這個比例來發放九任獎金那國教署也有跟本席說大約七月底前會定案那現在八月了不曉得研議員如何\n\n4\n00:00:57,014 --> 00:01:24,070\n那另外就是說本席上次來不及提到的就是目前9月的年資沒有採計育嬰留庭的年資那如果因為育嬰留庭而暫時沒有辦法去工作那年資就不予計算那這樣規定恐怕會讓更多的老師們不敢生孩子所以也不利於現在我們少子化要鼓勵生育的這個政策所以請問部長\n\n5\n00:01:25,872 --> 00:01:40,327\n上述的規定會不會與這個性別平等工作法的所謂的促進工作平等的這個措施有相抵觸那這個在本次討論的修正的會議中有討論嗎那有什麼決議部長\n\n6\n00:01:45,108 --> 00:02:05,658\n謝謝委員我想我們九院獎金事實上大概也感謝委員提這個問題因為外界一直認為說一定要留在原學校我們其實已經通過試他可以跨縣市跨校採集因為那個學校可能他教了六年因為接著他可能已經補上一個正式的老師所以他並沒有帶這個是\n\n7\n00:02:07,919 --> 00:02:21,654\n肯定他是可以採計的那另外一個剛才委員也感謝委員提醒我們事實上是按比例校長的借調在後用的是借調按比例給那至於剛才委員非常非常好\n\n8\n00:02:24,317 --> 00:02:45,949\n我想這是非常健康的一個一個主張我覺得我們應該來朝這個來支持的一個方向來因為確實我們現在希望有更多的這一些年輕老師他們也能夠有擁有一個小孩然後有一個家庭這個應該要被鼓勵好好那你會研議往這個支持的方向好謝謝部長\n\n9\n00:02:49,792 --> 00:02:54,276\n主席我再請一下體育署正署長台師大吳校長還有國科會書副主委還有衛福部劉司長\n\n10\n00:03:05,353 --> 00:03:21,498\n好謝謝我接下來還是要關心就是說我們全台灣民眾現在關心的這個台師大抽血案的問題那這個事件現在無論是教育部國科會或者衛福部都在持續的調查當中那包含教育部\n\n11\n00:03:23,819 --> 00:03:50,888\n這個禮拜跟台大還有台師大還有北師大這個查核這個IRB那還有就是國科會也要釐清這個事件的來龍去脈那並且要研議更具體的所謂的學術倫理守則等等那這部分本席要請相關單位務必要嚴查嚴辦那不只是給當事的同學跟社會大眾一個交代\n\n12\n00:03:51,328 --> 00:04:11,695\n那更是要透過重新檢討這個學術研究倫理然後教育現場的權力結構等面向來重整這個台灣整體學術界的威信跟風氣那更重要的是說我們真的要防止類似的事件再次發生那針對這次的事件本席首先想要討論是說\n\n13\n00:04:13,175 --> 00:04:40,026\n主持人或者受委託招募的受試者的人與受試者權利不對等的這個問題通常這種涉及主持人跟受試者的權利不對等的研究案會被研究倫理審查委員會就是IRB擋下來但這一次的研究主持人跟受試者的管理者\n\n14\n00:04:40,726 --> 00:04:47,290\n沒有適當揭露這個利害衝突所以審查會沒有及時去察覺到這種所謂的失聲權利不對等的狀態那我就想關心說那當研究計畫者有所隱瞞那IRB怎麼如何察覺到還是說要等到事件發生之後才會祭出懲處\n\n15\n00:05:01,377 --> 00:05:09,726\n那IRB要如何避免流於行事或者缺乏實質的審查這部分是不是先請部長或者國科會這邊來做回答\n\n16\n00:05:14,053 --> 00:05:32,425\n我想就教育部這一個部分是我想我們應該大學裡面大學都要加強宣導學生接受老師或是參與老師任何的研究他認為他不想參與他隨時可以終止這本來也是IRB裡面一個很重要的一個精神受試者的權益要優先被保障\n\n17\n00:05:32,905 --> 00:05:47,092\n那第二個就在大學端裡面加強內控內積裡面做不定期的這樣一個對研究涉及到IRB的這一個相關的研究裡面能夠有一個定期跟不定期的一個抽減我想\n\n18\n00:05:48,735 --> 00:06:07,727\n怎麼樣一個加強這個查核然後來確保我們所有的學生跟碩士者的一個權益我想對那所以剛我的問題是說那如果說當研究計畫者他有所隱瞞的時候那這樣整個整個機制怎麼樣去化解病人都一定要事情發生了才會知道\n\n19\n00:06:12,708 --> 00:06:25,364\n法當中就是有規定IRV就要定期的去查核他所督管的案子所以他有所隱瞞也會透過查核去了解然後只要一有異常狀況他可以IRV可以命這個計畫終止執行好\n\n20\n00:06:29,088 --> 00:06:45,796\n那在此我想要討論的就是說當人體實驗的受試者是學生那要求受他們抽血的人正是老師啊或者是教授那這樣子光是這個實驗樣本的取得過程就有所謂研究倫理的疑慮啊\n\n21\n00:06:46,816 --> 00:07:05,783\n那台大研究倫理委員會的臨床實驗研究計畫的審查重點當中他有針對這種權力不對等的關係下面的人體實驗就有明確的規範不過台師大的IRB的案件受理的管理程序跟\n\n22\n00:07:06,983 --> 00:07:32,544\n知情同意與審查的程序就都沒有提到這一點那本席理解是說例如像我們這次這個女足精英學生球員這種相關的運科研究有很大機率是研究者和受試者就是教練跟隊員的上對下的關係因為最精英的這批學生球員他可能就是這個教練所訓練管理的\n\n23\n00:07:33,044 --> 00:07:50,740\n那或者研究者就是學生系上的教授那既然如此相關的倫理規範不就應該要更加嚴謹嗎那所以要請教教部未來這種權力不對等的這種實驗和研究那你怎麼樣加強研究倫理的強化\n\n24\n00:07:53,032 --> 00:08:20,950\n我想這一個剛才包含我們這一個施大吳校長他也特別提到說學校裡邊怎麼樣去加強這個老師在研究倫理上的一些這一個教育訓練等一個真人我想這當然是一個那另外一個就是還是要必須要有一個不定期跟定期的一個查核機制那我覺得很重要的就是說我們對學生這一個部分我們還是要加強宣導\n\n25\n00:08:22,751 --> 00:08:44,043\n讓學生了解他的權益他可以自己保護那另外如果老師嚴重的違規這個本來校教評會都有一個處理機制我想這就是校教評會的一個處理機制如果還不足以去糾正老師的一個行為教育部的一個力量當然就一定會介入\n\n26\n00:08:45,003 --> 00:09:01,798\n好那接著本席有注意到就是說教科部有一個人體研究倫理審查委員會的這個查核作業要點那用這個查核人體研究的倫理審查委員會的運作情形那台師大在2022年\n\n27\n00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:31,977\n有通過教育部的不定期的查核那2023年的常規性的查核那台師大也在合格的名單中喔那合格的期限到2027年那但據這個受害了台師大的學生的描述教練可能是長期來用類似的手法在從事研究那教育部在這個不定期的查核跟常規性的查核裡面怎麼就沒有發現台師大的這個研究倫理\n\n28\n00:09:32,917 --> 00:09:41,327\n審查文會可能有失靈的狀況那製作部在到底在查核上發揮的實質的功能是不是失靈了或者出現了什麼問題啊部長\n\n29\n00:09:44,008 --> 00:10:12,634\n你查核過程都OK呢對報告委員我們查核的重點其實是在查核整個學校IRV運作的機制那確實台師大在這件事情上面也有出現了一些異常的狀況為時所以我們在5月19號本部的IRV的一個決議裡頭就是停止從7月1號開始停止台師大受理新案的審查這個是我們對於台師大整個IRV的一個監控機制\n\n30\n00:10:13,974 --> 00:10:36,232\n是另外這個受試者的保護當然是學術研究一個很重要的一環那本席看了一下人體研究法的主管機關衛福部那衛福部他有一個人體研究倫理審查委員會即受試者保護查核基準作業準則這個內容有受試者保護的規範那他的這個\n\n31\n00:10:41,716 --> 00:11:09,084\n他的那個規範的完善可說是重中之重而且他第四章就專門寫研究對象就是所謂受試者的保護的嚴謹性那明確寫出說這個評估受試者的招募內容方式流程的適當性等等可是我們再看回到教育部教育部的一個人體研究倫理審查文會查核基準使用說明裡面其實就寫得很簡略\n\n32\n00:11:10,444 --> 00:11:32,792\n簡單的三四頁然後細緻度跟衛福部的差很多那基本上也沒有提到說受試者的保護所以教育部我們可不可以考慮真的來重新檢視你這一套人體研究倫理審查委員會的這個查核基準把它寫得詳細一點或者說加強受試者保護這一塊\n\n33\n00:11:34,793 --> 00:11:59,680\n或者說教育部你認為在這一塊要如何經濟強化這個教育部在查核的力度那衛福部其實也應該可以給予協助啦是謝謝委員提醒我想這我們會來改進好就是以衛福部的這種查核的方式來作為主要的參考人家衛福部這個非常的詳盡好那我想這件事當然也反映了就是體育生\n\n34\n00:12:01,221 --> 00:12:15,658\n學業升學甚至參賽的資格我想常常會被教練掌控因為學生怕不能上場比賽得不到學分或者受到委屈也不敢吭聲我想這也是關鍵\n\n35\n00:12:17,620 --> 00:12:41,777\n我小時候為了是田徑隊喔那所以我很清楚能理解就是說教練要訓練競技的運動他必須要建立權威不然什麼要聽他的可是這個威信是要利他幫助孩子有更好的發展是利他的態度而不是拿來當自己的好處滿足自己的私慾那所以本席有看到這個運動部的報告\n\n36\n00:12:44,179 --> 00:13:00,870\n有特別提到說體育班的轉型當中我們就是要檢討現行體育班跟專任教練運動教練的相關法規那這部分想要具體檢討哪些法規或修改的方向是什麼那體育班我想長期以來就是\n\n37\n00:13:01,730 --> 00:13:18,940\n相對是軍事化的管理啦就是比較威權的管理那教練說了算的這種思維那該如何革新那怎麼杜絕影響到學生的學業成績啊或者初賽資格這種事情再次發生署長\n\n38\n00:13:19,540 --> 00:13:45,198\n報告委員其實在您的簡報上面就有提到我們在整個體育班轉型的這個六年的過程當中對專任教練的一些要求考核都有一些變更希望我們至少從國小開始做起我們就是希望把它社區化社團化而不是以多排的思維為主那當然我們有一批比較資深的教練他的觀念可能因為我們這幾年才把兒少的這個部分\n\n39\n00:13:45,818 --> 00:14:04,072\n把他放進我們的教練的考證的這個課程當中那也因為這樣所以我們現在有在立法院的支持下我們現在有所謂的六年要換證那換證的過程那就必須要有真人所以資深的教練我們就會透過真人的部分再給予他一個重新的一個教育希望他們就像委員講的以立他為基礎進行\n\n40\n00:14:05,533 --> 00:14:22,217\n那最後就是說我有看到教育部跟未來的運動部對學校體育這個部分已經做出分工那目前其實已經有開始在執行分工的任務了嗎已經開過應該有七八次的會議由戰略次長來主持討論蠻細的\n\n41\n00:14:24,378 --> 00:14:48,298\n我是想提醒初期應該會比較相對混亂一點那某些業務也很難區分誰要負責那當然我們不希望在這個業務轉移要分工的這個時候看到互踢皮球的狀態那應該可以做到啦包委我們其實會建立目前這個默契就是運動部成立之後兩個部會會有一個學校體育的一個溝通平台來做這個協調好謝謝謝謝署長謝謝部長謝謝主席\n\n42\n00:14:56,879 --> 00:14:58,605\n謝謝臨警召委質詢歡迎請回座謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5388\t15142\t謝主席 先有請曾耀部長跟彭副原署長請鄭部長 彭署長 貝子荀 謝謝部長好\n21121\t38657\t首先先詢問您一下就是上一次的質詢本席曾經提過偏遠地區學校教師久任獎金的問題當時本席是提到說偏鄉的主任或這個後任校長他如果介紹到教育局去那因為沒有實際服務在偏鄉的這個學校\n41420\t56213\t所以就不能採計年資那這部分部長有答應說要研議按照這個比例來發放九任獎金那國教署也有跟本席說大約七月底前會定案那現在八月了不曉得研議員如何\n57014\t84070\t那另外就是說本席上次來不及提到的就是目前9月的年資沒有採計育嬰留庭的年資那如果因為育嬰留庭而暫時沒有辦法去工作那年資就不予計算那這樣規定恐怕會讓更多的老師們不敢生孩子所以也不利於現在我們少子化要鼓勵生育的這個政策所以請問部長\n85872\t100327\t上述的規定會不會與這個性別平等工作法的所謂的促進工作平等的這個措施有相抵觸那這個在本次討論的修正的會議中有討論嗎那有什麼決議部長\n105108\t125658\t謝謝委員 我想我們九院獎金事實上大概也感謝委員提這個問題因為外界一直認為說一定要留在原學校我們其實已經通過試 他可以跨縣市跨校採集因為那個學校可能他教了六年 因為接著他可能已經補上一個正式的老師所以他並沒有帶 這個是\n127919\t141654\t肯定他是可以採計的那另外一個剛才委員也感謝委員提醒我們事實上是按比例校長的借調在後用的是借調按比例給那至於剛才委員非常非常好\n144317\t165949\t我想這是非常健康的一個一個主張我覺得我們應該來朝這個來支持的一個方向來因為確實我們現在希望有更多的這一些年輕老師他們也能夠有擁有一個小孩然後有一個家庭這個應該要被鼓勵好好那你會研議往這個支持的方向好謝謝部長\n169792\t174276\t主席 我再請一下體育署正署長 台師大吳校長還有國科會書副主委 還有衛福部劉司長\n185353\t201498\t好 謝謝我接下來還是要關心就是說我們全台灣民眾現在關心的這個台師大抽血案的問題那這個事件現在無論是教育部 國科會或者衛福部都在持續的調查當中那包含教育部\n203819\t230888\t這個禮拜跟台大還有台師大還有北師大這個查核這個IRB那還有就是國科會也要釐清這個事件的來龍去脈那並且要研議更具體的所謂的學術倫理守則等等那這部分本席要請相關單位務必要嚴查嚴辦那不只是給當事的同學跟社會大眾一個交代\n231328\t251695\t那更是要透過重新檢討這個學術研究倫理然後教育現場的權力結構等面向來重整這個台灣整體學術界的威信跟風氣那更重要的是說我們真的要防止類似的事件再次發生那針對這次的事件本席首先想要討論是說\n253175\t280026\t主持人或者受委託招募的受試者的人與受試者權利不對等的這個問題通常這種涉及主持人跟受試者的權利不對等的研究案會被研究倫理審查委員會就是IRB擋下來但這一次的研究主持人跟受試者的管理者\n280726\t287290\t沒有適當揭露這個利害衝突所以審查會沒有及時去察覺到這種所謂的失聲權利不對等的狀態那我就想關心說那當研究計畫者有所隱瞞那IRB怎麼如何察覺到還是說要等到事件發生之後才會祭出懲處\n301377\t309726\t那IRB要如何避免流於行事或者缺乏實質的審查這部分是不是先請部長或者國科會這邊來做回答\n314053\t332425\t我想就教育部這一個部分是我想我們應該大學裡面大學都要加強宣導學生接受老師或是參與老師任何的研究他認為他不想參與他隨時可以終止這本來也是IRB裡面一個很重要的一個精神受試者的權益要優先被保障\n332905\t347092\t那第二個就在大學端裡面加強內控內積裡面做不定期的這樣一個對研究涉及到IRB的這一個相關的研究裡面能夠有一個定期跟不定期的一個抽減我想\n348735\t367727\t怎麼樣一個加強這個查核然後來確保我們所有的學生跟碩士者的一個權益我想對那所以剛我的問題是說那如果說當研究計畫者他有所隱瞞的時候那這樣整個整個機制怎麼樣去化解病人都一定要事情發生了才會知道\n372708\t385364\t法當中就是有規定IRV就要定期的去查核他所督管的案子所以他有所隱瞞也會透過查核去了解然後只要一有異常狀況他可以IRV可以命這個計畫終止執行好\n389088\t405796\t那在此我想要討論的就是說當人體實驗的受試者是學生那要求受他們抽血的人正是老師啊或者是教授那這樣子光是這個實驗樣本的取得過程就有所謂研究倫理的疑慮啊\n406816\t425783\t那台大研究倫理委員會的臨床實驗研究計畫的審查重點當中他有針對這種權力不對等的關係下面的人體實驗就有明確的規範不過台師大的IRB的案件受理的管理程序跟\n426983\t452544\t知情同意與審查的程序就都沒有提到這一點那本席理解是說例如像我們這次這個女足精英學生球員這種相關的運科研究有很大機率是研究者和受試者就是教練跟隊員的上對下的關係因為最精英的這批學生球員他可能就是這個教練所訓練管理的\n453044\t470740\t那或者研究者就是學生系上的教授那既然如此相關的倫理規範不就應該要更加嚴謹嗎那所以要請教教部未來這種權力不對等的這種實驗和研究那你怎麼樣加強研究倫理的強化\n473032\t500950\t我想這一個剛才包含我們這一個施大吳校長他也特別提到說學校裡邊怎麼樣去加強這個老師在研究倫理上的一些這一個教育訓練等一個真人我想這當然是一個那另外一個就是還是要必須要有一個不定期跟定期的一個查核機制那我覺得很重要的就是說我們對學生這一個部分我們還是要加強宣導\n502751\t524043\t讓學生了解他的權益他可以自己保護那另外如果老師嚴重的違規這個本來校教評會都有一個處理機制我想這就是校教評會的一個處理機制如果還不足以去糾正老師的一個行為教育部的一個力量當然就一定會介入\n525003\t541798\t好 那接著本席有注意到就是說教科部有一個人體研究倫理審查委員會的這個查核作業要點那用這個查核人體研究的倫理審查委員會的運作情形那台師大在2022年\n543559\t571977\t有通過教育部的不定期的查核那2023年的常規性的查核那台師大也在合格的名單中喔那合格的期限到2027年那但據這個受害了台師大的學生的描述教練可能是長期來用類似的手法在從事研究那教育部在這個不定期的查核跟常規性的查核裡面怎麼就沒有發現台師大的這個研究倫理\n572917\t581327\t審查文會可能有失靈的狀況那製作部在到底在查核上發揮的實質的功能是不是失靈了或者出現了什麼問題啊 部長\n584008\t612634\t你查核過程都OK呢對 報告委員我們查核的重點其實是在查核整個學校IRV運作的機制那確實台師大在這件事情上面也有出現了一些異常的狀況為時所以我們在5月19號本部的IRV的一個決議裡頭就是停止從7月1號開始停止台師大受理新案的審查這個是我們對於台師大整個IRV的一個監控機制\n613974\t636232\t是另外這個受試者的保護當然是學術研究一個很重要的一環那本席看了一下人體研究法的主管機關衛福部那衛福部他有一個人體研究倫理審查委員會即受試者保護查核基準作業準則這個內容有受試者保護的規範那他的這個\n641716\t669084\t他的那個規範的完善可說是重中之重而且他第四章就專門寫研究對象就是所謂受試者的保護的嚴謹性那明確寫出說這個評估受試者的招募內容方式流程的適當性等等可是我們再看回到教育部教育部的一個人體研究倫理審查文會查核基準使用說明裡面其實就寫得很簡略\n670444\t692792\t簡單的三四頁然後細緻度跟衛福部的差很多那基本上也沒有提到說受試者的保護所以教育部我們可不可以考慮真的來重新檢視你這一套人體研究倫理審查委員會的這個查核基準把它寫得詳細一點或者說加強受試者保護這一塊\n694793\t719680\t或者說教育部你認為在這一塊要如何經濟強化這個教育部在查核的力度那衛福部其實也應該可以給予協助啦是 謝謝委員提醒我想這我們會來改進好 就是以衛福部的這種查核的方式來作為主要的參考人家衛福部這個非常的詳盡好 那我想這件事當然也反映了就是體育生\n721221\t735658\t學業升學 甚至參賽的資格我想常常會被教練掌控因為學生怕不能上場比賽得不到學分 或者受到委屈也不敢吭聲我想這也是關鍵\n737620\t761777\t我小時候為了是田徑隊喔那所以我很清楚能理解就是說教練要訓練競技的運動他必須要建立權威不然什麼要聽他的可是這個威信是要利他幫助孩子有更好的發展是利他的態度而不是拿來當自己的好處滿足自己的私慾那所以本席有看到這個運動部的報告\n764179\t780870\t有特別提到說體育班的轉型當中我們就是要檢討現行體育班跟專任教練運動教練的相關法規那這部分想要具體檢討哪些法規或修改的方向是什麼那體育班我想長期以來就是\n781730\t798940\t相對是軍事化的管理啦就是比較威權的管理那教練說了算的這種思維那該如何革新那怎麼杜絕影響到學生的學業成績啊或者初賽資格這種事情再次發生署長\n799540\t825198\t報告委員其實在您的簡報上面就有提到我們在整個體育班轉型的這個六年的過程當中對專任教練的一些要求考核都有一些變更希望我們至少從國小開始做起我們就是希望把它社區化社團化而不是以多排的思維為主那當然我們有一批比較資深的教練他的觀念可能因為我們這幾年才把兒少的這個部分\n825818\t844072\t把他放進我們的教練的考證的這個課程當中那也因為這樣所以我們現在有在立法院的支持下我們現在有所謂的六年要換證那換證的過程那就必須要有真人所以資深的教練我們就會透過真人的部分再給予他一個重新的一個教育希望他們就像委員講的以立他為基礎進行\n845533\t862217\t那最後就是說我有看到教育部跟未來的運動部對學校體育這個部分已經做出分工那目前其實已經有開始在執行分工的任務了嗎已經開過應該有七八次的會議由戰略次長來主持討論蠻細的\n864378\t888298\t我是想提醒初期應該會比較相對混亂一點那某些業務也很難區分誰要負責那當然我們不希望在這個業務轉移要分工的這個時候看到互踢皮球的狀態那應該可以做到啦包委我們其實會建立目前這個默契就是運動部成立之後兩個部會會有一個學校體育的一個溝通平台來做這個協調好 謝謝 謝謝署長 謝謝部長 謝謝主席\n896879\t898605\t謝謝 臨警召委質詢 歡迎請回座 謝謝\n","txt":"謝主席 先有請曾耀部長跟彭副原署長請鄭部長 彭署長 貝子荀 謝謝部長好\n首先先詢問您一下就是上一次的質詢本席曾經提過偏遠地區學校教師久任獎金的問題當時本席是提到說偏鄉的主任或這個後任校長他如果介紹到教育局去那因為沒有實際服務在偏鄉的這個學校\n所以就不能採計年資那這部分部長有答應說要研議按照這個比例來發放九任獎金那國教署也有跟本席說大約七月底前會定案那現在八月了不曉得研議員如何\n那另外就是說本席上次來不及提到的就是目前9月的年資沒有採計育嬰留庭的年資那如果因為育嬰留庭而暫時沒有辦法去工作那年資就不予計算那這樣規定恐怕會讓更多的老師們不敢生孩子所以也不利於現在我們少子化要鼓勵生育的這個政策所以請問部長\n上述的規定會不會與這個性別平等工作法的所謂的促進工作平等的這個措施有相抵觸那這個在本次討論的修正的會議中有討論嗎那有什麼決議部長\n謝謝委員 我想我們九院獎金事實上大概也感謝委員提這個問題因為外界一直認為說一定要留在原學校我們其實已經通過試 他可以跨縣市跨校採集因為那個學校可能他教了六年 因為接著他可能已經補上一個正式的老師所以他並沒有帶 這個是\n肯定他是可以採計的那另外一個剛才委員也感謝委員提醒我們事實上是按比例校長的借調在後用的是借調按比例給那至於剛才委員非常非常好\n我想這是非常健康的一個一個主張我覺得我們應該來朝這個來支持的一個方向來因為確實我們現在希望有更多的這一些年輕老師他們也能夠有擁有一個小孩然後有一個家庭這個應該要被鼓勵好好那你會研議往這個支持的方向好謝謝部長\n主席 我再請一下體育署正署長 台師大吳校長還有國科會書副主委 還有衛福部劉司長\n好 謝謝我接下來還是要關心就是說我們全台灣民眾現在關心的這個台師大抽血案的問題那這個事件現在無論是教育部 國科會或者衛福部都在持續的調查當中那包含教育部\n這個禮拜跟台大還有台師大還有北師大這個查核這個IRB那還有就是國科會也要釐清這個事件的來龍去脈那並且要研議更具體的所謂的學術倫理守則等等那這部分本席要請相關單位務必要嚴查嚴辦那不只是給當事的同學跟社會大眾一個交代\n那更是要透過重新檢討這個學術研究倫理然後教育現場的權力結構等面向來重整這個台灣整體學術界的威信跟風氣那更重要的是說我們真的要防止類似的事件再次發生那針對這次的事件本席首先想要討論是說\n主持人或者受委託招募的受試者的人與受試者權利不對等的這個問題通常這種涉及主持人跟受試者的權利不對等的研究案會被研究倫理審查委員會就是IRB擋下來但這一次的研究主持人跟受試者的管理者\n沒有適當揭露這個利害衝突所以審查會沒有及時去察覺到這種所謂的失聲權利不對等的狀態那我就想關心說那當研究計畫者有所隱瞞那IRB怎麼如何察覺到還是說要等到事件發生之後才會祭出懲處\n那IRB要如何避免流於行事或者缺乏實質的審查這部分是不是先請部長或者國科會這邊來做回答\n我想就教育部這一個部分是我想我們應該大學裡面大學都要加強宣導學生接受老師或是參與老師任何的研究他認為他不想參與他隨時可以終止這本來也是IRB裡面一個很重要的一個精神受試者的權益要優先被保障\n那第二個就在大學端裡面加強內控內積裡面做不定期的這樣一個對研究涉及到IRB的這一個相關的研究裡面能夠有一個定期跟不定期的一個抽減我想\n怎麼樣一個加強這個查核然後來確保我們所有的學生跟碩士者的一個權益我想對那所以剛我的問題是說那如果說當研究計畫者他有所隱瞞的時候那這樣整個整個機制怎麼樣去化解病人都一定要事情發生了才會知道\n法當中就是有規定IRV就要定期的去查核他所督管的案子所以他有所隱瞞也會透過查核去了解然後只要一有異常狀況他可以IRV可以命這個計畫終止執行好\n那在此我想要討論的就是說當人體實驗的受試者是學生那要求受他們抽血的人正是老師啊或者是教授那這樣子光是這個實驗樣本的取得過程就有所謂研究倫理的疑慮啊\n那台大研究倫理委員會的臨床實驗研究計畫的審查重點當中他有針對這種權力不對等的關係下面的人體實驗就有明確的規範不過台師大的IRB的案件受理的管理程序跟\n知情同意與審查的程序就都沒有提到這一點那本席理解是說例如像我們這次這個女足精英學生球員這種相關的運科研究有很大機率是研究者和受試者就是教練跟隊員的上對下的關係因為最精英的這批學生球員他可能就是這個教練所訓練管理的\n那或者研究者就是學生系上的教授那既然如此相關的倫理規範不就應該要更加嚴謹嗎那所以要請教教部未來這種權力不對等的這種實驗和研究那你怎麼樣加強研究倫理的強化\n我想這一個剛才包含我們這一個施大吳校長他也特別提到說學校裡邊怎麼樣去加強這個老師在研究倫理上的一些這一個教育訓練等一個真人我想這當然是一個那另外一個就是還是要必須要有一個不定期跟定期的一個查核機制那我覺得很重要的就是說我們對學生這一個部分我們還是要加強宣導\n讓學生了解他的權益他可以自己保護那另外如果老師嚴重的違規這個本來校教評會都有一個處理機制我想這就是校教評會的一個處理機制如果還不足以去糾正老師的一個行為教育部的一個力量當然就一定會介入\n好 那接著本席有注意到就是說教科部有一個人體研究倫理審查委員會的這個查核作業要點那用這個查核人體研究的倫理審查委員會的運作情形那台師大在2022年\n有通過教育部的不定期的查核那2023年的常規性的查核那台師大也在合格的名單中喔那合格的期限到2027年那但據這個受害了台師大的學生的描述教練可能是長期來用類似的手法在從事研究那教育部在這個不定期的查核跟常規性的查核裡面怎麼就沒有發現台師大的這個研究倫理\n審查文會可能有失靈的狀況那製作部在到底在查核上發揮的實質的功能是不是失靈了或者出現了什麼問題啊 部長\n你查核過程都OK呢對 報告委員我們查核的重點其實是在查核整個學校IRV運作的機制那確實台師大在這件事情上面也有出現了一些異常的狀況為時所以我們在5月19號本部的IRV的一個決議裡頭就是停止從7月1號開始停止台師大受理新案的審查這個是我們對於台師大整個IRV的一個監控機制\n是另外這個受試者的保護當然是學術研究一個很重要的一環那本席看了一下人體研究法的主管機關衛福部那衛福部他有一個人體研究倫理審查委員會即受試者保護查核基準作業準則這個內容有受試者保護的規範那他的這個\n他的那個規範的完善可說是重中之重而且他第四章就專門寫研究對象就是所謂受試者的保護的嚴謹性那明確寫出說這個評估受試者的招募內容方式流程的適當性等等可是我們再看回到教育部教育部的一個人體研究倫理審查文會查核基準使用說明裡面其實就寫得很簡略\n簡單的三四頁然後細緻度跟衛福部的差很多那基本上也沒有提到說受試者的保護所以教育部我們可不可以考慮真的來重新檢視你這一套人體研究倫理審查委員會的這個查核基準把它寫得詳細一點或者說加強受試者保護這一塊\n或者說教育部你認為在這一塊要如何經濟強化這個教育部在查核的力度那衛福部其實也應該可以給予協助啦是 謝謝委員提醒我想這我們會來改進好 就是以衛福部的這種查核的方式來作為主要的參考人家衛福部這個非常的詳盡好 那我想這件事當然也反映了就是體育生\n學業升學 甚至參賽的資格我想常常會被教練掌控因為學生怕不能上場比賽得不到學分 或者受到委屈也不敢吭聲我想這也是關鍵\n我小時候為了是田徑隊喔那所以我很清楚能理解就是說教練要訓練競技的運動他必須要建立權威不然什麼要聽他的可是這個威信是要利他幫助孩子有更好的發展是利他的態度而不是拿來當自己的好處滿足自己的私慾那所以本席有看到這個運動部的報告\n有特別提到說體育班的轉型當中我們就是要檢討現行體育班跟專任教練運動教練的相關法規那這部分想要具體檢討哪些法規或修改的方向是什麼那體育班我想長期以來就是\n相對是軍事化的管理啦就是比較威權的管理那教練說了算的這種思維那該如何革新那怎麼杜絕影響到學生的學業成績啊或者初賽資格這種事情再次發生署長\n報告委員其實在您的簡報上面就有提到我們在整個體育班轉型的這個六年的過程當中對專任教練的一些要求考核都有一些變更希望我們至少從國小開始做起我們就是希望把它社區化社團化而不是以多排的思維為主那當然我們有一批比較資深的教練他的觀念可能因為我們這幾年才把兒少的這個部分\n把他放進我們的教練的考證的這個課程當中那也因為這樣所以我們現在有在立法院的支持下我們現在有所謂的六年要換證那換證的過程那就必須要有真人所以資深的教練我們就會透過真人的部分再給予他一個重新的一個教育希望他們就像委員講的以立他為基礎進行\n那最後就是說我有看到教育部跟未來的運動部對學校體育這個部分已經做出分工那目前其實已經有開始在執行分工的任務了嗎已經開過應該有七八次的會議由戰略次長來主持討論蠻細的\n我是想提醒初期應該會比較相對混亂一點那某些業務也很難區分誰要負責那當然我們不希望在這個業務轉移要分工的這個時候看到互踢皮球的狀態那應該可以做到啦包委我們其實會建立目前這個默契就是運動部成立之後兩個部會會有一個學校體育的一個溝通平台來做這個協調好 謝謝 謝謝署長 謝謝部長 謝謝主席\n謝謝 臨警召委質詢 歡迎請回座 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.388 --> 00:15.142\n謝主席先有請曾耀部長跟彭副原署長請鄭部長彭署長貝子荀謝謝部長好\n\n00:21.121 --> 00:38.657\n首先先詢問您一下就是上一次的質詢本席曾經提過偏遠地區學校教師久任獎金的問題當時本席是提到說偏鄉的主任或這個後任校長他如果介紹到教育局去那因為沒有實際服務在偏鄉的這個學校\n\n00:41.420 --> 00:56.213\n所以就不能採計年資那這部分部長有答應說要研議按照這個比例來發放九任獎金那國教署也有跟本席說大約七月底前會定案那現在八月了不曉得研議員如何\n\n00:57.014 --> 01:24.070\n那另外就是說本席上次來不及提到的就是目前9月的年資沒有採計育嬰留庭的年資那如果因為育嬰留庭而暫時沒有辦法去工作那年資就不予計算那這樣規定恐怕會讓更多的老師們不敢生孩子所以也不利於現在我們少子化要鼓勵生育的這個政策所以請問部長\n\n01:25.872 --> 01:40.327\n上述的規定會不會與這個性別平等工作法的所謂的促進工作平等的這個措施有相抵觸那這個在本次討論的修正的會議中有討論嗎那有什麼決議部長\n\n01:45.108 --> 02:05.658\n謝謝委員我想我們九院獎金事實上大概也感謝委員提這個問題因為外界一直認為說一定要留在原學校我們其實已經通過試他可以跨縣市跨校採集因為那個學校可能他教了六年因為接著他可能已經補上一個正式的老師所以他並沒有帶這個是\n\n02:07.919 --> 02:21.654\n肯定他是可以採計的那另外一個剛才委員也感謝委員提醒我們事實上是按比例校長的借調在後用的是借調按比例給那至於剛才委員非常非常好\n\n02:24.317 --> 02:45.949\n我想這是非常健康的一個一個主張我覺得我們應該來朝這個來支持的一個方向來因為確實我們現在希望有更多的這一些年輕老師他們也能夠有擁有一個小孩然後有一個家庭這個應該要被鼓勵好好那你會研議往這個支持的方向好謝謝部長\n\n02:49.792 --> 02:54.276\n主席我再請一下體育署正署長台師大吳校長還有國科會書副主委還有衛福部劉司長\n\n03:05.353 --> 03:21.498\n好謝謝我接下來還是要關心就是說我們全台灣民眾現在關心的這個台師大抽血案的問題那這個事件現在無論是教育部國科會或者衛福部都在持續的調查當中那包含教育部\n\n03:23.819 --> 03:50.888\n這個禮拜跟台大還有台師大還有北師大這個查核這個IRB那還有就是國科會也要釐清這個事件的來龍去脈那並且要研議更具體的所謂的學術倫理守則等等那這部分本席要請相關單位務必要嚴查嚴辦那不只是給當事的同學跟社會大眾一個交代\n\n03:51.328 --> 04:11.695\n那更是要透過重新檢討這個學術研究倫理然後教育現場的權力結構等面向來重整這個台灣整體學術界的威信跟風氣那更重要的是說我們真的要防止類似的事件再次發生那針對這次的事件本席首先想要討論是說\n\n04:13.175 --> 04:40.026\n主持人或者受委託招募的受試者的人與受試者權利不對等的這個問題通常這種涉及主持人跟受試者的權利不對等的研究案會被研究倫理審查委員會就是IRB擋下來但這一次的研究主持人跟受試者的管理者\n\n04:40.726 --> 04:47.290\n沒有適當揭露這個利害衝突所以審查會沒有及時去察覺到這種所謂的失聲權利不對等的狀態那我就想關心說那當研究計畫者有所隱瞞那IRB怎麼如何察覺到還是說要等到事件發生之後才會祭出懲處\n\n05:01.377 --> 05:09.726\n那IRB要如何避免流於行事或者缺乏實質的審查這部分是不是先請部長或者國科會這邊來做回答\n\n05:14.053 --> 05:32.425\n我想就教育部這一個部分是我想我們應該大學裡面大學都要加強宣導學生接受老師或是參與老師任何的研究他認為他不想參與他隨時可以終止這本來也是IRB裡面一個很重要的一個精神受試者的權益要優先被保障\n\n05:32.905 --> 05:47.092\n那第二個就在大學端裡面加強內控內積裡面做不定期的這樣一個對研究涉及到IRB的這一個相關的研究裡面能夠有一個定期跟不定期的一個抽減我想\n\n05:48.735 --> 06:07.727\n怎麼樣一個加強這個查核然後來確保我們所有的學生跟碩士者的一個權益我想對那所以剛我的問題是說那如果說當研究計畫者他有所隱瞞的時候那這樣整個整個機制怎麼樣去化解病人都一定要事情發生了才會知道\n\n06:12.708 --> 06:25.364\n法當中就是有規定IRV就要定期的去查核他所督管的案子所以他有所隱瞞也會透過查核去了解然後只要一有異常狀況他可以IRV可以命這個計畫終止執行好\n\n06:29.088 --> 06:45.796\n那在此我想要討論的就是說當人體實驗的受試者是學生那要求受他們抽血的人正是老師啊或者是教授那這樣子光是這個實驗樣本的取得過程就有所謂研究倫理的疑慮啊\n\n06:46.816 --> 07:05.783\n那台大研究倫理委員會的臨床實驗研究計畫的審查重點當中他有針對這種權力不對等的關係下面的人體實驗就有明確的規範不過台師大的IRB的案件受理的管理程序跟\n\n07:06.983 --> 07:32.544\n知情同意與審查的程序就都沒有提到這一點那本席理解是說例如像我們這次這個女足精英學生球員這種相關的運科研究有很大機率是研究者和受試者就是教練跟隊員的上對下的關係因為最精英的這批學生球員他可能就是這個教練所訓練管理的\n\n07:33.044 --> 07:50.740\n那或者研究者就是學生系上的教授那既然如此相關的倫理規範不就應該要更加嚴謹嗎那所以要請教教部未來這種權力不對等的這種實驗和研究那你怎麼樣加強研究倫理的強化\n\n07:53.032 --> 08:20.950\n我想這一個剛才包含我們這一個施大吳校長他也特別提到說學校裡邊怎麼樣去加強這個老師在研究倫理上的一些這一個教育訓練等一個真人我想這當然是一個那另外一個就是還是要必須要有一個不定期跟定期的一個查核機制那我覺得很重要的就是說我們對學生這一個部分我們還是要加強宣導\n\n08:22.751 --> 08:44.043\n讓學生了解他的權益他可以自己保護那另外如果老師嚴重的違規這個本來校教評會都有一個處理機制我想這就是校教評會的一個處理機制如果還不足以去糾正老師的一個行為教育部的一個力量當然就一定會介入\n\n08:45.003 --> 09:01.798\n好那接著本席有注意到就是說教科部有一個人體研究倫理審查委員會的這個查核作業要點那用這個查核人體研究的倫理審查委員會的運作情形那台師大在2022年\n\n09:03.559 --> 09:31.977\n有通過教育部的不定期的查核那2023年的常規性的查核那台師大也在合格的名單中喔那合格的期限到2027年那但據這個受害了台師大的學生的描述教練可能是長期來用類似的手法在從事研究那教育部在這個不定期的查核跟常規性的查核裡面怎麼就沒有發現台師大的這個研究倫理\n\n09:32.917 --> 09:41.327\n審查文會可能有失靈的狀況那製作部在到底在查核上發揮的實質的功能是不是失靈了或者出現了什麼問題啊部長\n\n09:44.008 --> 10:12.634\n你查核過程都OK呢對報告委員我們查核的重點其實是在查核整個學校IRV運作的機制那確實台師大在這件事情上面也有出現了一些異常的狀況為時所以我們在5月19號本部的IRV的一個決議裡頭就是停止從7月1號開始停止台師大受理新案的審查這個是我們對於台師大整個IRV的一個監控機制\n\n10:13.974 --> 10:36.232\n是另外這個受試者的保護當然是學術研究一個很重要的一環那本席看了一下人體研究法的主管機關衛福部那衛福部他有一個人體研究倫理審查委員會即受試者保護查核基準作業準則這個內容有受試者保護的規範那他的這個\n\n10:41.716 --> 11:09.084\n他的那個規範的完善可說是重中之重而且他第四章就專門寫研究對象就是所謂受試者的保護的嚴謹性那明確寫出說這個評估受試者的招募內容方式流程的適當性等等可是我們再看回到教育部教育部的一個人體研究倫理審查文會查核基準使用說明裡面其實就寫得很簡略\n\n11:10.444 --> 11:32.792\n簡單的三四頁然後細緻度跟衛福部的差很多那基本上也沒有提到說受試者的保護所以教育部我們可不可以考慮真的來重新檢視你這一套人體研究倫理審查委員會的這個查核基準把它寫得詳細一點或者說加強受試者保護這一塊\n\n11:34.793 --> 11:59.680\n或者說教育部你認為在這一塊要如何經濟強化這個教育部在查核的力度那衛福部其實也應該可以給予協助啦是謝謝委員提醒我想這我們會來改進好就是以衛福部的這種查核的方式來作為主要的參考人家衛福部這個非常的詳盡好那我想這件事當然也反映了就是體育生\n\n12:01.221 --> 12:15.658\n學業升學甚至參賽的資格我想常常會被教練掌控因為學生怕不能上場比賽得不到學分或者受到委屈也不敢吭聲我想這也是關鍵\n\n12:17.620 --> 12:41.777\n我小時候為了是田徑隊喔那所以我很清楚能理解就是說教練要訓練競技的運動他必須要建立權威不然什麼要聽他的可是這個威信是要利他幫助孩子有更好的發展是利他的態度而不是拿來當自己的好處滿足自己的私慾那所以本席有看到這個運動部的報告\n\n12:44.179 --> 13:00.870\n有特別提到說體育班的轉型當中我們就是要檢討現行體育班跟專任教練運動教練的相關法規那這部分想要具體檢討哪些法規或修改的方向是什麼那體育班我想長期以來就是\n\n13:01.730 --> 13:18.940\n相對是軍事化的管理啦就是比較威權的管理那教練說了算的這種思維那該如何革新那怎麼杜絕影響到學生的學業成績啊或者初賽資格這種事情再次發生署長\n\n13:19.540 --> 13:45.198\n報告委員其實在您的簡報上面就有提到我們在整個體育班轉型的這個六年的過程當中對專任教練的一些要求考核都有一些變更希望我們至少從國小開始做起我們就是希望把它社區化社團化而不是以多排的思維為主那當然我們有一批比較資深的教練他的觀念可能因為我們這幾年才把兒少的這個部分\n\n13:45.818 --> 14:04.072\n把他放進我們的教練的考證的這個課程當中那也因為這樣所以我們現在有在立法院的支持下我們現在有所謂的六年要換證那換證的過程那就必須要有真人所以資深的教練我們就會透過真人的部分再給予他一個重新的一個教育希望他們就像委員講的以立他為基礎進行\n\n14:05.533 --> 14:22.217\n那最後就是說我有看到教育部跟未來的運動部對學校體育這個部分已經做出分工那目前其實已經有開始在執行分工的任務了嗎已經開過應該有七八次的會議由戰略次長來主持討論蠻細的\n\n14:24.378 --> 14:48.298\n我是想提醒初期應該會比較相對混亂一點那某些業務也很難區分誰要負責那當然我們不希望在這個業務轉移要分工的這個時候看到互踢皮球的狀態那應該可以做到啦包委我們其實會建立目前這個默契就是運動部成立之後兩個部會會有一個學校體育的一個溝通平台來做這個協調好謝謝謝謝署長謝謝部長謝謝主席\n\n14:56.879 --> 14:58.605\n謝謝臨警召委質詢歡迎請回座謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.388,"end":15.142,"text":"謝主席 先有請曾耀部長跟彭副原署長請鄭部長 彭署長 貝子荀 謝謝部長好"},{"start":21.121,"end":38.657,"text":"首先先詢問您一下就是上一次的質詢本席曾經提過偏遠地區學校教師久任獎金的問題當時本席是提到說偏鄉的主任或這個後任校長他如果介紹到教育局去那因為沒有實際服務在偏鄉的這個學校"},{"start":41.42,"end":56.213,"text":"所以就不能採計年資那這部分部長有答應說要研議按照這個比例來發放九任獎金那國教署也有跟本席說大約七月底前會定案那現在八月了不曉得研議員如何"},{"start":57.014,"end":84.07,"text":"那另外就是說本席上次來不及提到的就是目前9月的年資沒有採計育嬰留庭的年資那如果因為育嬰留庭而暫時沒有辦法去工作那年資就不予計算那這樣規定恐怕會讓更多的老師們不敢生孩子所以也不利於現在我們少子化要鼓勵生育的這個政策所以請問部長"},{"start":85.872,"end":100.327,"text":"上述的規定會不會與這個性別平等工作法的所謂的促進工作平等的這個措施有相抵觸那這個在本次討論的修正的會議中有討論嗎那有什麼決議部長"},{"start":105.108,"end":125.658,"text":"謝謝委員 我想我們九院獎金事實上大概也感謝委員提這個問題因為外界一直認為說一定要留在原學校我們其實已經通過試 他可以跨縣市跨校採集因為那個學校可能他教了六年 因為接著他可能已經補上一個正式的老師所以他並沒有帶 這個是"},{"start":127.919,"end":141.654,"text":"肯定他是可以採計的那另外一個剛才委員也感謝委員提醒我們事實上是按比例校長的借調在後用的是借調按比例給那至於剛才委員非常非常好"},{"start":144.317,"end":165.949,"text":"我想這是非常健康的一個一個主張我覺得我們應該來朝這個來支持的一個方向來因為確實我們現在希望有更多的這一些年輕老師他們也能夠有擁有一個小孩然後有一個家庭這個應該要被鼓勵好好那你會研議往這個支持的方向好謝謝部長"},{"start":169.792,"end":174.276,"text":"主席 我再請一下體育署正署長 台師大吳校長還有國科會書副主委 還有衛福部劉司長"},{"start":185.353,"end":201.498,"text":"好 謝謝我接下來還是要關心就是說我們全台灣民眾現在關心的這個台師大抽血案的問題那這個事件現在無論是教育部 國科會或者衛福部都在持續的調查當中那包含教育部"},{"start":203.819,"end":230.888,"text":"這個禮拜跟台大還有台師大還有北師大這個查核這個IRB那還有就是國科會也要釐清這個事件的來龍去脈那並且要研議更具體的所謂的學術倫理守則等等那這部分本席要請相關單位務必要嚴查嚴辦那不只是給當事的同學跟社會大眾一個交代"},{"start":231.328,"end":251.695,"text":"那更是要透過重新檢討這個學術研究倫理然後教育現場的權力結構等面向來重整這個台灣整體學術界的威信跟風氣那更重要的是說我們真的要防止類似的事件再次發生那針對這次的事件本席首先想要討論是說"},{"start":253.175,"end":280.026,"text":"主持人或者受委託招募的受試者的人與受試者權利不對等的這個問題通常這種涉及主持人跟受試者的權利不對等的研究案會被研究倫理審查委員會就是IRB擋下來但這一次的研究主持人跟受試者的管理者"},{"start":280.726,"end":287.29,"text":"沒有適當揭露這個利害衝突所以審查會沒有及時去察覺到這種所謂的失聲權利不對等的狀態那我就想關心說那當研究計畫者有所隱瞞那IRB怎麼如何察覺到還是說要等到事件發生之後才會祭出懲處"},{"start":301.377,"end":309.726,"text":"那IRB要如何避免流於行事或者缺乏實質的審查這部分是不是先請部長或者國科會這邊來做回答"},{"start":314.053,"end":332.425,"text":"我想就教育部這一個部分是我想我們應該大學裡面大學都要加強宣導學生接受老師或是參與老師任何的研究他認為他不想參與他隨時可以終止這本來也是IRB裡面一個很重要的一個精神受試者的權益要優先被保障"},{"start":332.905,"end":347.092,"text":"那第二個就在大學端裡面加強內控內積裡面做不定期的這樣一個對研究涉及到IRB的這一個相關的研究裡面能夠有一個定期跟不定期的一個抽減我想"},{"start":348.735,"end":367.727,"text":"怎麼樣一個加強這個查核然後來確保我們所有的學生跟碩士者的一個權益我想對那所以剛我的問題是說那如果說當研究計畫者他有所隱瞞的時候那這樣整個整個機制怎麼樣去化解病人都一定要事情發生了才會知道"},{"start":372.708,"end":385.364,"text":"法當中就是有規定IRV就要定期的去查核他所督管的案子所以他有所隱瞞也會透過查核去了解然後只要一有異常狀況他可以IRV可以命這個計畫終止執行好"},{"start":389.088,"end":405.796,"text":"那在此我想要討論的就是說當人體實驗的受試者是學生那要求受他們抽血的人正是老師啊或者是教授那這樣子光是這個實驗樣本的取得過程就有所謂研究倫理的疑慮啊"},{"start":406.816,"end":425.783,"text":"那台大研究倫理委員會的臨床實驗研究計畫的審查重點當中他有針對這種權力不對等的關係下面的人體實驗就有明確的規範不過台師大的IRB的案件受理的管理程序跟"},{"start":426.983,"end":452.544,"text":"知情同意與審查的程序就都沒有提到這一點那本席理解是說例如像我們這次這個女足精英學生球員這種相關的運科研究有很大機率是研究者和受試者就是教練跟隊員的上對下的關係因為最精英的這批學生球員他可能就是這個教練所訓練管理的"},{"start":453.044,"end":470.74,"text":"那或者研究者就是學生系上的教授那既然如此相關的倫理規範不就應該要更加嚴謹嗎那所以要請教教部未來這種權力不對等的這種實驗和研究那你怎麼樣加強研究倫理的強化"},{"start":473.032,"end":500.95,"text":"我想這一個剛才包含我們這一個施大吳校長他也特別提到說學校裡邊怎麼樣去加強這個老師在研究倫理上的一些這一個教育訓練等一個真人我想這當然是一個那另外一個就是還是要必須要有一個不定期跟定期的一個查核機制那我覺得很重要的就是說我們對學生這一個部分我們還是要加強宣導"},{"start":502.751,"end":524.043,"text":"讓學生了解他的權益他可以自己保護那另外如果老師嚴重的違規這個本來校教評會都有一個處理機制我想這就是校教評會的一個處理機制如果還不足以去糾正老師的一個行為教育部的一個力量當然就一定會介入"},{"start":525.003,"end":541.798,"text":"好 那接著本席有注意到就是說教科部有一個人體研究倫理審查委員會的這個查核作業要點那用這個查核人體研究的倫理審查委員會的運作情形那台師大在2022年"},{"start":543.559,"end":571.977,"text":"有通過教育部的不定期的查核那2023年的常規性的查核那台師大也在合格的名單中喔那合格的期限到2027年那但據這個受害了台師大的學生的描述教練可能是長期來用類似的手法在從事研究那教育部在這個不定期的查核跟常規性的查核裡面怎麼就沒有發現台師大的這個研究倫理"},{"start":572.917,"end":581.327,"text":"審查文會可能有失靈的狀況那製作部在到底在查核上發揮的實質的功能是不是失靈了或者出現了什麼問題啊 部長"},{"start":584.008,"end":612.634,"text":"你查核過程都OK呢對 報告委員我們查核的重點其實是在查核整個學校IRV運作的機制那確實台師大在這件事情上面也有出現了一些異常的狀況為時所以我們在5月19號本部的IRV的一個決議裡頭就是停止從7月1號開始停止台師大受理新案的審查這個是我們對於台師大整個IRV的一個監控機制"},{"start":613.974,"end":636.232,"text":"是另外這個受試者的保護當然是學術研究一個很重要的一環那本席看了一下人體研究法的主管機關衛福部那衛福部他有一個人體研究倫理審查委員會即受試者保護查核基準作業準則這個內容有受試者保護的規範那他的這個"},{"start":641.716,"end":669.084,"text":"他的那個規範的完善可說是重中之重而且他第四章就專門寫研究對象就是所謂受試者的保護的嚴謹性那明確寫出說這個評估受試者的招募內容方式流程的適當性等等可是我們再看回到教育部教育部的一個人體研究倫理審查文會查核基準使用說明裡面其實就寫得很簡略"},{"start":670.444,"end":692.792,"text":"簡單的三四頁然後細緻度跟衛福部的差很多那基本上也沒有提到說受試者的保護所以教育部我們可不可以考慮真的來重新檢視你這一套人體研究倫理審查委員會的這個查核基準把它寫得詳細一點或者說加強受試者保護這一塊"},{"start":694.793,"end":719.68,"text":"或者說教育部你認為在這一塊要如何經濟強化這個教育部在查核的力度那衛福部其實也應該可以給予協助啦是 謝謝委員提醒我想這我們會來改進好 就是以衛福部的這種查核的方式來作為主要的參考人家衛福部這個非常的詳盡好 那我想這件事當然也反映了就是體育生"},{"start":721.221,"end":735.658,"text":"學業升學 甚至參賽的資格我想常常會被教練掌控因為學生怕不能上場比賽得不到學分 或者受到委屈也不敢吭聲我想這也是關鍵"},{"start":737.62,"end":761.777,"text":"我小時候為了是田徑隊喔那所以我很清楚能理解就是說教練要訓練競技的運動他必須要建立權威不然什麼要聽他的可是這個威信是要利他幫助孩子有更好的發展是利他的態度而不是拿來當自己的好處滿足自己的私慾那所以本席有看到這個運動部的報告"},{"start":764.179,"end":780.87,"text":"有特別提到說體育班的轉型當中我們就是要檢討現行體育班跟專任教練運動教練的相關法規那這部分想要具體檢討哪些法規或修改的方向是什麼那體育班我想長期以來就是"},{"start":781.73,"end":798.94,"text":"相對是軍事化的管理啦就是比較威權的管理那教練說了算的這種思維那該如何革新那怎麼杜絕影響到學生的學業成績啊或者初賽資格這種事情再次發生署長"},{"start":799.54,"end":825.198,"text":"報告委員其實在您的簡報上面就有提到我們在整個體育班轉型的這個六年的過程當中對專任教練的一些要求考核都有一些變更希望我們至少從國小開始做起我們就是希望把它社區化社團化而不是以多排的思維為主那當然我們有一批比較資深的教練他的觀念可能因為我們這幾年才把兒少的這個部分"},{"start":825.818,"end":844.072,"text":"把他放進我們的教練的考證的這個課程當中那也因為這樣所以我們現在有在立法院的支持下我們現在有所謂的六年要換證那換證的過程那就必須要有真人所以資深的教練我們就會透過真人的部分再給予他一個重新的一個教育希望他們就像委員講的以立他為基礎進行"},{"start":845.533,"end":862.217,"text":"那最後就是說我有看到教育部跟未來的運動部對學校體育這個部分已經做出分工那目前其實已經有開始在執行分工的任務了嗎已經開過應該有七八次的會議由戰略次長來主持討論蠻細的"},{"start":864.378,"end":888.298,"text":"我是想提醒初期應該會比較相對混亂一點那某些業務也很難區分誰要負責那當然我們不希望在這個業務轉移要分工的這個時候看到互踢皮球的狀態那應該可以做到啦包委我們其實會建立目前這個默契就是運動部成立之後兩個部會會有一個學校體育的一個溝通平台來做這個協調好 謝謝 謝謝署長 謝謝部長 謝謝主席"},{"start":896.879,"end":898.605,"text":"謝謝 臨警召委質詢 歡迎請回座 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":535,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（11時5分）謝謝主席，有請鄭英耀部長跟彭富源署長。"],["主席：好，請鄭部長、彭署長備詢，謝謝。"],["林委員宜瑾：部長好。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：部長，首先要先詢問您一下，在上一次質詢時本席曾經提過偏遠地區學校教師久任獎金的問題，當時本席提到偏鄉的主任或候用校長如果借調到教育局去，因為沒有實際在偏鄉學校服務，所以就不能採計年資，這部分部長有答應要研議按照比例來發放久任獎金，國教署也有跟本席說大約7月底前會定案，那現在已經8月了，不曉得研議得如何。另外，本席上次來不及提到，就是目前久任的年資沒有採計育嬰留停的年資，如果因為育嬰留停而暫時沒有辦法去工作，那年資就不予計算，這樣的規定恐怕會讓更多的老師們不敢生孩子，也不利於現在我們因為少子化而要鼓勵生育的政策，請問部長，上述的規定會不會與性別平等工作法中所謂的促進工作平等這個措施相牴觸？在本次的修正會議中有討論這個部分嗎？最後有做什麼決議？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員，感謝委員提出這個久任獎金的問題，因為外界一直認為一定要留在原學校，我們其實已經通過可以跨縣市、跨校採計，因為他可能在那個學校教了6年，接著他已經補上正式的老師，所以他並沒有代理……"],["林委員宜瑾：他又去別的學校。"],["鄭部長英耀：這個是肯定可以採計的。"],["林委員宜瑾：對。"],["鄭部長英耀：另外，也感謝委員的提醒，事實上，我們是按比例，校長在候用的是借調，就是按比例給。至於剛才委員提出一個非常好的問題，就是育嬰留停，我想這是一個非常健康的主張，我覺得我們應該朝支持的方向來做，因為我們現在確實希望有更多的年輕老師也能夠擁有一個小孩，然後有一個家庭，這個應該要被鼓勵，我想我們朝支持的方向來努力。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，你們會研議往支持的方向，好，謝謝部長。我再請一下體育署鄭署長、臺師大吳校長、國科會蘇副主委還有衛福部劉司長，謝謝。我接下來還是要關心一個問題，就是我們全臺灣民眾現在所關心的這個臺師大抽血案，針對這個事件，現在無論是教育部、國科會或者衛福部，都在持續的調查當中，包含教育部在這個禮拜跟臺大、臺師大還有北市大查核IRB，還有國科會也要釐清這個事件的來龍去脈，並且要研議更具體的學術倫理守則等等，本席請相關單位對這部分務必要嚴查、嚴辦，不只給身為當事人的同學跟社會大眾一個交代，更是要透過重新檢討學術研究倫理還有教育現場的權力結構等面向，來重整臺灣整體學術界的威信跟風氣，更重要的就是我們真的要防止類似的事件再次發生。針對這次的事件，本席首先想要討論一個問題，就是主持人或者受委託招募受試者的人與受試者權力不對等，因為通常這種涉及主持人跟受試者之間權力不對等的研究案會被研究倫理審查委員會，也就是IRB擋下來，但這一次的研究主持人與受試者的管理者沒有適當揭露這個利害衝突，所以審查會沒有及時察覺到這種所謂的師生權力不對等的狀態，我想關心的是，當研究計畫者有所隱瞞，IRB如何察覺到，還是要等到事件發生之後才會祭出懲處？IRB要如何避免流於形式或者缺乏實質的審查？這部分是不是先請部長或者國科會來做回答。"],["鄭部長英耀：就教育部的部分，大學裡面都要加強宣導，學生接受老師或者參與老師任何的研究，當他不想參與的時候，他隨時可以終止，這本來也是IRB裡面一個很重要的精神，受試者的權益要優先被保障。第二個，在大學端加強內控內稽，對涉及到IRB的相關研究進行定期和不定期的抽檢，如何加強查核，以確保所有學生及受試者的權益。"],["林委員宜瑾：我的問題是，當研究計畫者有所隱瞞的時候，整個機制怎麼樣去化解，變成都一定要事情發生了才會知道。"],["廖司長高賢：……當中就有規定IRB要定期去查核它所督管的案子。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以當他有所隱瞞，也會通過查核去瞭解？"],["廖司長高賢：對，只要一有異常狀況，IRB可以命這個計畫終止執行。"],["林委員宜瑾：在此我想要討論的是，當人體實驗的受試者是學生，要求受他們抽血的人正是老師或者是教授，光是實驗樣本的取得過程就有所謂研究倫理的疑慮，臺大研究倫理委員會的臨床試驗研究計畫審查重點當中，針對這種權力不對等關係下的人體實驗就有明確規範，不過臺師大IRB案件受理的管理程序、知情同意與審查程序，就都沒有提到這一點。本席的理解是，例如，像這次的女足菁英學生球員，這種相關的運科研究有很大機率是研究者和受試者就是教練和隊員的上對下關係，因為最菁英的這批學生球員，他可能就是這個教練所訓練、管理的，或者研究者就是學生系上的教授，既然如此，相關的倫理規範不就應該要更加嚴謹嗎？所以要請教教育部，未來這種權力不對等的實驗和研究，怎麼樣加強研究倫理的強化？"],["鄭部長英耀：剛才包含我們師大的吳校長，他也特別提到學校怎麼樣去加強老師在研究倫理上教育訓練的增能，這當然是一個，另外還是必須要有一個不定期與定期的查核機制，我覺得很重要的是，對於學生的部分我們還是要加強宣導，讓學生瞭解他的權益，這樣他就可以自我保護。另外，若老師有嚴重違規之情事，本來校教評會都有一個處理機制，但是校教評會的處理機制如果還不足以去糾正老師的行為，教育部的力量當然也就一定會介入。"],["林委員宜瑾：接著本席也有注意到，教育部有一個人體研究倫理審查委員會查核作業要點，用於查核人體研究倫理審查委員會的運作情形，臺師大在2022年有通過教育部的不定期查核，2023年的常規性查核，臺師大也在合格的名單中，合格期限到2027年。但據受害的臺師大學生描述，教練可能是長期以來都用類似的手法在從事研究，教育部在不定期查核及常規性查核裡面，怎麼沒有發現臺師大的研究倫理審查委員會可能有失靈的狀況，教育部在查核上發揮的實質功能是不是失靈了或者出現了什麼問題？部長，它的查核過程都是OK的。"],["廖司長高賢：報告委員，我們查核的重點其實是在查核整個學校IRB運作的機制，臺師大在這件事情上面確實也有出現了一些異常的狀況、違失，所以5月19日本部IRB就決議從7月1日開始停止臺師大受理新案的審查，這個是我們對於臺師大整個IRB的監控機制。"],["林委員宜瑾：另外，受試者保護當然是學術研究很重要的一環，本席看了一下人體研究法的主管機關是衛福部，衛福部有一個人體研究倫理審查委員會暨受試者保護查核基準作業準則，這個內容有受試者保護的規範，規範的完善可說是重中之重，而且第四章專門針對研究對象，也就是所謂受試者保護的嚴謹性，明確寫出評估受試者的招募內容、方式、流程的適當性等等。可是我們再回到教育部，教育部的人體研究倫理審查委員會查核基準使用說明裡面其實就寫得很簡略，只有簡單的3、4頁，細緻度也與衛福部的規範差很多，基本上也沒有提到受試者的保護，所以教育部可不可以考慮真的重新檢視這一套人體研究倫理審查委員會的查核基準，把它寫得詳細一點或者加強受試者保護這一塊？教育部認為在這一塊要如何精進，以強化教育部查核的力度，衛福部其實也應該可以給予協助，部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒，這個我們會來改進。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，以衛福部的查核方式作為主要參考，衛福部規範的非常詳盡。這件事當然也反映體育生的學業升學，甚至是參賽資格常常會被教練掌控，因為學生怕不能上場比賽、得不到學分或者受到委屈也不敢吭聲，我想這也是關鍵，我小時候也是田徑隊，所以我很清楚也能理解，教練要訓練競技運動，他必須要建立權威，不然誰要聽他的，可是這個威信是要利他，幫助孩子有更好的發展，是利他的態度，而不是拿來當自己的好處，滿足自己的私慾。本席看到運動部的報告有特別提到，體育班的轉型當中就是要檢討現行體育班與專任教練、運動教練的相關法規，這部分想要具體檢討哪些法規或修改的方向是什麼？體育班長期以來相對是軍事化管理，比較威權的管理，教練說了算的這種思維該如何革新，怎麼杜絕影響到學生的學業成績或出賽資格的這種事情再次發生？署長。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，其實在你的簡報上面就有提到在體育班轉型的6年過程當中，對專任教練的要求、考核都有一些變更，希望至少從國小開始做起，我們希望把它社區化、社團化，而不是以奪牌的思維為主。當然，我們有一批比較資深的教練，因為我們這幾年才把兒少的部分放進教練考證的課程當中，也因為這樣，所以我們在立法院的支持下，現在有所謂的6年要換證，換證的過程就必須要有增能，所以我們就會透過增能的部分，再給予資深教練一個重新的教育，就像委員講的，希望他們以利他為基礎來進行。"],["林委員宜瑾：最後，我有看到教育部和未來的運動部對學校體育部分已經做出分工，目前已經有開始在執行分工的任務了嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：目前已經開過7、8次會議，由張廖次長主持，也討論滿細的。"],["林委員宜瑾：我想提醒初期應該會相對混亂一點，某些業務也很難區分誰要負責，當然，我們不希望在業務轉移、分工的時候看到互踢皮球的狀態，應該可以做到吧？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我們其實會建立……目前整個默契就是運動部成立之後，兩個部會會有一個學校體育的溝通平臺來做協調。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝署長，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["鄭署長世忠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林宜瑾召委質詢，官員請回座，謝謝。","接下來有請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-18","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","劉書彬","萬美玲","陳秀寳","張雅琳","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","范雲","李坤城","黃捷","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","陳培瑜","葉元之","黃國昌","高金素梅","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":3,"meetingDate":["2025-08-07"],"gazette_id":"1147202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長列席就「全國中小學教師人力不足現況與具體因應對策」進行專題報告並備\n質詢；二、邀請教育部部長、國家科學及技術委員會、衛生福利部列席就「如何強化研究計畫之\n人體研究倫理把關機制，以保障人權，捍衛科研價值，並避免類似台師大女足抽血違反研究倫理\n之案件再次發生」進行專題報告，並備質詢；三、邀請教育部部長、行政院人事行政總處及行政\n院主計總處列席就「9月9日運動部成立籌備情形與後續推動規劃」進行專題報告並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147202_00002"}}}