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0.794}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 320.897, \"end\": 320.997, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 320.997, \"end\": 321.017, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 321.017, \"end\": 321.137, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 321.137, \"end\": 321.157, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 321.157, \"end\": 321.177, \"score\": 0.001}]}, {\"start\": 330.02, \"end\": 345.863, \"text\": \"因為我們現在沒有落實那個初步的審查變成很多東西直接進到校舍也把學校中小學搞到人仰馬翻我想這我們一定要從流程裡面看怎麼樣來建立一個共識有一個更好的一個分流的一個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 330.02, \"end\": 330.26, \"score\": 0.731}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 330.26, \"end\": 330.501, \"score\": 0.68}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 330.501, \"end\": 330.681, \"score\": 0.732}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 330.681, \"end\": 330.801, \"score\": 0.716}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 330.801, \"end\": 330.941, 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0.842}, {\"word\": \"仰\", \"start\": 338.051, \"end\": 338.432, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"馬\"}, {\"word\": \"翻\", \"start\": 338.432, \"end\": 338.913, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 338.913, \"end\": 339.053, \"score\": 0.648}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 339.053, \"end\": 339.373, \"score\": 0.681}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 339.373, \"end\": 339.634, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 339.634, \"end\": 339.754, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 339.754, \"end\": 339.894, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 339.894, \"end\": 340.575, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"流\", \"start\": 340.575, \"end\": 340.835, \"score\": 0.669}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 340.835, \"end\": 341.116, \"score\": 0.67}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 341.116, \"end\": 341.296, \"score\": 0.6}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 341.296, \"end\": 341.496, \"score\": 0.686}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 341.496, \"end\": 342.398, \"score\": 0.746}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 342.398, \"end\": 342.578, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 342.578, \"end\": 342.698, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 342.698, \"end\": 342.998, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"共\", \"start\": 342.998, \"end\": 343.459, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"識\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 343.459, \"end\": 343.679, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 343.679, \"end\": 344.2, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 344.2, \"end\": 344.38, \"score\": 0.767}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 344.38, \"end\": 344.601, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 344.601, \"end\": 344.701, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 344.701, \"end\": 345.322, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 345.322, \"end\": 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\"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"琴\", \"start\": 797.643, \"end\": 797.824, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 797.824, \"end\": 798.405, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"官\", \"start\": 798.405, \"end\": 798.846, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 798.846, \"end\": 799.067, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"座\", \"start\": 799.067, \"end\": 799.849, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"待\", \"start\": 799.849, \"end\": 800.009, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 800.009, \"end\": 800.23, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 800.23, \"end\": 800.45, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"范\", \"start\": 800.45, \"end\": 800.731, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"雲\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 800.731, \"end\": 801.373, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"束\", \"start\": 801.373, \"end\": 802.174, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 802.174, \"end\": 802.295, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 802.295, \"end\": 802.676, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 802.676, \"end\": 803.117, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 803.117, \"end\": 803.758, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"臨\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 803.758, \"end\": 803.899, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 803.899, \"end\": 804.039, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 804.039, \"end\": 804.159, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 804.159, \"end\": 804.179, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,269 --> 00:00:02,151\n接下來有請郭育晴委員質詢好有請部長有請鄭部長備質詢謝謝委員好\n\n2\n00:00:20,882 --> 00:00:44,885\n好部長辛苦了我們今天是要來討論這個中小學的教室人力不足的一個問題那最近我的辦公室其實接到很多很多的陳情喔可以應該嚴格上有上百件都是跟校事會議有關那這一位呢是今天特別早上在我的臉書上留言的一位代理教師喔\n\n3\n00:00:45,365 --> 00:01:05,195\n那他因為被家長濫訴那不僅是要出席這個刑事的訴訟那同時呢還有這個校事會議那目前呢他身上還有兩個案子是沒有結果其實身心俱疲他還要準備可能自己本身的教學的教材等等那我想這個過程當中其實他們\n\n4\n00:01:07,296 --> 00:01:26,991\n除了前線的這些教師在跟我反應之外我覺得已經是達到了有求救這樣子的一個訊號那我想校師會議原本的好意其實是為了要維護學生的一個權益那要保障這個校園當中的一些秩序但是呢我們現在看到也許\n\n5\n00:01:28,973 --> 00:01:45,635\n過程或者是制度上的不夠清楚跟不夠公正也引起了在校園尤其是在教學端的寒蟬效應我想這個問題其實是非常值得我們一起來看怎麼樣能夠來往比較好的方向去解決\n\n6\n00:01:47,113 --> 00:02:00,976\n好那我想這個部分我們可以看到這個是從新聞的資料上面顯示那整體的一個案件是每一年都在增加但是最後能夠成案的大概只有2.6%但沒有具體事證的高達36%但還有更在進行當中的也高達了61%點多那我想這個教學意見的不同親師的溝通有落差\n\n7\n00:02:14,259 --> 00:02:31,103\n甚至只要一點點小小的事情只要有人申訴他可能就馬上會啟動所謂的這個校式會議那初步來講其實他是沒有所謂的分流的一個處理那甚至有老師直接在跟我們反應他說是不是因為這樣人心惶惶我其實就不敢再\n\n8\n00:02:34,324 --> 00:02:57,779\n我的這個整個教學的過程當中我不敢創新不敢嘗試甚至還有老師跟我們說難道我在教學的過程當中還要全程錄音自保嗎我想請教一下這個教育部我們有沒有可能在校事會議當中可以先初步的建立審查的機制那分不同的類型採取不同的分析的處理\n\n9\n00:03:00,435 --> 00:03:26,624\n跟委員報告他本來就是以學校就有一個先初步的一個審查但是因為學校確實因為整個這樣一個氛圍就讓學校變成所有的不管輕重或者是實與否就都先進入就直接進入到校事調查我想這也是我們這一年來校事會議裡邊我們這一年來收集到很多第一線上的不管校長老師\n\n10\n00:03:27,904 --> 00:03:28,785\n所以部長應該也覺得因為這樣一點點小小的爭議馬上就進入調查\n\n11\n00:03:58,784 --> 00:04:23,735\n也就是說部長我們已經意識到就是學校第一線的老師跟我們反映的這些問題我們都已經我今天所有的內容跟問題其實都在反映第一線老師曾經反映過給我們的那我也會提出我的一些建議喔好再來很多的這個調查的案件當中其實老師沒有被完整的告知到底他自己被指控的內容是什麼\n\n12\n00:04:24,295 --> 00:04:51,136\n那甚至有人是到了現場才發現說我只有一個小時能夠月卷同時在一個小時當中有時候他的資料他被調查的這些資料是去識別化甚至高達上百頁一個小時怎麼能夠吸收得了怎麼能夠看完這些所謂的這些被指控的一些內容那我們是不是能夠要求這個調查報告應該要完整的告知這個當事人才能夠保障\n\n13\n00:04:52,698 --> 00:05:06,056\n讓就是被申訴的這些老師他有一個答辯的準備或者是說他有閱覽的一個權利這個部分我們是不是可以來嚴理增訂這樣子的一個部分提供給其他在學校第一現場的人\n\n14\n00:05:07,312 --> 00:05:21,177\n我想這是應該的因為任何一個民主法這個社會裡面我們本來就不希望延緩任何一個這個好等於說他沒有犯錯你不應該要所以目前我們是沒有這樣子的一個機制對不對適當的這個等於說他的權益應該要受維護我想這一個部分我們來看怎麼樣來在整個流程裡面我剛才跟委員講了\n\n15\n00:05:30,020 --> 00:05:45,863\n因為我們現在沒有落實那個初步的審查變成很多東西直接進到校舍也把學校中小學搞到人仰馬翻我想這我們一定要從流程裡面看怎麼樣來建立一個共識有一個更好的一個分流的一個\n\n16\n00:05:46,243 --> 00:06:15,402\n那我們得到了這個部長的這個算是正面的一個回應了那接下來我想要問一下就是很多的學校的調查委員到底是怎麼產生的那有很多人跟我們反映說這個學校的這個調查的委員是校長指定甚至他會找自己的指導教授來當委員那有些老師甚至被不懂教學現場的律師或者是退休的校長來做審查甚至還有人他是教\n\n17\n00:06:16,703 --> 00:06:33,875\n國文的但是他卻要被地理老師來做審查您覺得這樣子合理嗎是不是可以有所謂的這個地方政府的教育局或者第三方的單位我們來進行所謂的抽籤選任建立利益迴避跟專業的認證機制這個您同意嗎\n\n18\n00:06:38,312 --> 00:06:52,861\n確實我們也發現有一些本來我們希望利益良善希望不要放縱也不要冤枉所以有一個更客觀的社會學者專家團體教育部也有這樣的一個事前委員的真人培訓\n\n19\n00:06:56,884 --> 00:07:10,935\n調查委員的庫爾是由地方縣市教育局他上網去篩選三到五倍的人選然後把這個人選名單再交給這個學校學校校長來挑三個\n\n20\n00:07:12,116 --> 00:07:28,305\n我想這個不可否認的其實在教學現場我們碰到的這些來跟我們申訴的這些老師他所看到的這些問題包含就是這些調查的委員形成一條龍的作業變成他們沒有任何的\n\n21\n00:07:29,225 --> 00:07:56,362\n所謂的利益的迴避的問題那等於就是說一直同樣的都是這一群人甚至他們也有一些是完全沒有所謂的法證訓練的然後甚至也沒有在學校擔任過教職經驗他也被納入在這個所謂的調查的委員當中喔那我想這個部分其實我們應該要從制度面包含這個調查委員的資格那麼我想有很多的爭議喔\n\n22\n00:07:57,162 --> 00:08:21,471\n不管是校事會議當中我們看到像是性評也好霸凌也好學校有很多的部分在處理校事會議變成是球員兼裁判那這個部分其實也難免就會流於讓很多的老師會覺得我自己今天要進入到校事會議要被調查的過程當中他感覺是被凌遲的這個您同意嗎\n\n23\n00:08:22,401 --> 00:08:43,350\n我想確實有一些案例我們也包含我個人也有一些老師直接把這個像我這個反應或者說投訴我們其實對一直在希望說這個制度裡面一定要看怎麼樣來修改一個真正無妄誤種誤種的這樣的一個讓不好的老師我們什麼時候可以修改\n\n24\n00:08:44,644 --> 00:09:03,140\n剛剛我們講的這幾條什麼時候可以真的給前線老師一些實質上的一個幫助跟支持因為他們其實有的還是非常的有教學熱忱我們一直不斷的在講說不管是任何國中小現在的教師的缺額人力的不足的確也形成最大的一個問題其實最後影響的還是學生的受教權益\n\n25\n00:09:06,598 --> 00:09:23,175\n謝謝委員提醒我想年底之前我們一定會有一個比較希望能夠更好的一個這個方向來修訂也就是說這個它真的是造成已經造成第一線上的一些老師的工作世氣跟教協上的干擾\n\n26\n00:09:23,615 --> 00:09:38,357\n我們直接講到老師在被調查的期間他我剛剛說了他可能還要備課他有的人還要兼任所謂的這個行政上的一個處理其實他的身心壓力是非常非常之大就像我剛剛\n\n27\n00:09:39,258 --> 00:10:06,288\n第一頁就看到這位代理老師他的留言還有他有所謂的聘期不續還有資格取消等等這樣子的問題但是他在被調查的這些期間他沒有任何的心理上的一個支持他甚至是孤立無援的你要他怎麼樣在教學現場繼續走下去我想請問一下部長有沒有考慮可以建立讓老師有一個\n\n28\n00:10:07,048 --> 00:10:26,639\n教師支持的系統不管是法律上的協助心理上的輔導行政上的一個資源我覺得如果老師最後他真的能夠證明他自己的清白甚至要有一個可以讓他回復的一個機制不要讓他們默默的去承受所謂的這些莫須有的罪名\n\n29\n00:10:27,119 --> 00:10:31,083\n如果剛剛就像我們剛剛講的成案只有2.6%剩下還有百分之三十幾是完全沒有成案的我想老師的部分他真的會被嚴重的打擊他在教學現場的一個熱情這個部分我們是不是可以也有這樣子的一個支持系統實質上來支持他們這應該不用等到年底這應該馬上就可以\n\n30\n00:10:49,100 --> 00:11:03,348\n我想這不用我想因為我們現在心理輔導的知識系統本來就可以有六次但是我剛才也有委員關心我們可以到提供到八次這是沒有問題那法例的一個顧問禮兵我們也來跟地方這個教育\n\n31\n00:11:05,190 --> 00:11:28,292\n這個教育基礎來看怎麼樣來協助學校在真正進入到一些法律的一些諮詢跟一些協助我想今天因為是今天其實因為時間非常的有限喔那我再次強調校事會議它不是法庭它應該是要幫助學校去釐清一些問題能夠我想制度其實不是只是在強調處罰啦\n\n32\n00:11:29,713 --> 00:11:49,338\n也應該要有一個對話跟修復的空間讓老師能夠找回他們在教學上的熱情跟信心對學校的一個信任那我想親師之間的一個溝通那也是非常非常的重要那我最後呼籲幾點我們就往這個方向來做好不好我想我們應該要建立所謂的分級的制度\n\n33\n00:11:49,858 --> 00:12:18,881\n那是不是要提高提高所謂的啟動校事會議的門檻適度的提高不要一點點的小小的事情就讓老師真的陷入到其中他真的會身心俱疲第二點就是我們怎麼樣保障就是被校事會議調查的這些老師們他們知情跟答辯的權利再來第三點是怎麼樣健全調查委員的選任還有培訓的一個制度我想這個也是由第三方要非常的公正才能夠\n\n34\n00:12:19,902 --> 00:12:43,710\n讓老師能夠獲得這個清白或者是他要自證我想這個才是有幫助的那再來第四點我們是怎麼樣來推動第三方的審議的單位第五點設立教師支持跟法律援助的體系我想這一點我們第五點可以馬上就做我們讓整個所有的制度可以更明確程序可以更公平那對老師來講我們想學校是要讓老師能夠留下來是要讓老師可以教\n\n35\n00:12:48,271 --> 00:13:13,987\n他能夠教甚至他敢教學的地方我想這個部長您應該要同意吧謝謝委員的這個意見我想都是非常寶貴這些東西我相信對未來的這個校室會議的一個處理一定有非常高的一個價值好我們給更多的老師更多的支持因為最後還是因為學生的受教權益才是最重要的一部分好嗎是好謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝謝謝委員\n\n36\n00:13:17,423 --> 00:13:24,179\n謝謝郭玉琴委員官員請回座待會我們在范雲委員結束質詢之後我們進行臨時提案的處理\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n269\t2151\t接下來有請郭育晴委員質詢好 有請部長有請鄭部長備質詢 謝謝委員好\n20882\t44885\t好部長辛苦了我們今天是要來討論這個中小學的教室人力不足的一個問題那最近我的辦公室其實接到很多很多的陳情喔可以應該嚴格上有上百件都是跟校事會議有關那這一位呢是今天特別早上在我的臉書上留言的一位代理教師喔\n45365\t65195\t那他因為被家長濫訴那不僅是要出席這個刑事的訴訟那同時呢還有這個校事會議那目前呢他身上還有兩個案子是沒有結果其實身心俱疲他還要準備可能自己本身的教學的教材等等那我想這個過程當中其實他們\n67296\t86991\t除了前線的這些教師在跟我反應之外我覺得已經是達到了有求救這樣子的一個訊號那我想校師會議原本的好意其實是為了要維護學生的一個權益那要保障這個校園當中的一些秩序但是呢我們現在看到也許\n88973\t105635\t過程或者是制度上的不夠清楚跟不夠公正也引起了在校園尤其是在教學端的寒蟬效應我想這個問題其實是非常值得我們一起來看怎麼樣能夠來往比較好的方向去解決\n107113\t120976\t好 那我想這個部分我們可以看到這個是從新聞的資料上面顯示那整體的一個案件是每一年都在增加但是最後能夠成案的大概只有2.6%但沒有具體事證的高達36%但還有更在進行當中的也高達了61%點多那我想這個教學意見的不同 親師的溝通有落差\n134259\t151103\t甚至只要一點點小小的事情只要有人申訴他可能就馬上會啟動所謂的這個校式會議那初步來講其實他是沒有所謂的分流的一個處理那甚至有老師直接在跟我們反應他說是不是因為這樣人心惶惶我其實就不敢再\n154324\t177779\t我的這個整個教學的過程當中我不敢創新不敢嘗試甚至還有老師跟我們說難道我在教學的過程當中還要全程錄音自保嗎我想請教一下這個教育部我們有沒有可能在校事會議當中可以先初步的建立審查的機制那分不同的類型採取不同的分析的處理\n180435\t206624\t跟委員報告他本來就是以學校就有一個先初步的一個審查但是因為學校確實因為整個這樣一個氛圍就讓學校變成所有的不管輕重或者是實與否就都先進入就直接進入到校事調查我想這也是我們這一年來校事會議裡邊我們這一年來收集到很多第一線上的不管校長老師\n207904\t208785\t所以部長應該也覺得因為這樣一點點小小的爭議馬上就進入調查\n238784\t263735\t也就是說部長我們已經意識到就是學校第一線的老師跟我們反映的這些問題我們都已經我今天所有的內容跟問題其實都在反映第一線老師曾經反映過給我們的那我也會提出我的一些建議喔好再來很多的這個調查的案件當中其實老師沒有被完整的告知到底他自己被指控的內容是什麼\n264295\t291136\t那甚至有人是到了現場才發現說我只有一個小時能夠月卷同時在一個小時當中有時候他的資料他被調查的這些資料是去識別化甚至高達上百頁一個小時怎麼能夠吸收得了怎麼能夠看完這些所謂的這些被指控的一些內容那我們是不是能夠要求這個調查報告應該要完整的告知這個當事人才能夠保障\n292698\t306056\t讓就是被申訴的這些老師他有一個答辯的準備或者是說他有閱覽的一個權利這個部分我們是不是可以來嚴理增訂這樣子的一個部分提供給其他在學校第一現場的人\n307312\t321177\t我想這是應該的因為任何一個民主法這個社會裡面我們本來就不希望延緩任何一個這個好等於說他沒有犯錯你不應該要所以目前我們是沒有這樣子的一個機制對不對適當的這個等於說他的權益應該要受維護我想這一個部分我們來看怎麼樣來在整個流程裡面我剛才跟委員講了\n330020\t345863\t因為我們現在沒有落實那個初步的審查變成很多東西直接進到校舍也把學校中小學搞到人仰馬翻我想這我們一定要從流程裡面看怎麼樣來建立一個共識有一個更好的一個分流的一個\n346243\t375402\t那我們得到了這個部長的這個算是正面的一個回應了那接下來我想要問一下就是很多的學校的調查委員到底是怎麼產生的那有很多人跟我們反映說這個學校的這個調查的委員是校長指定甚至他會找自己的指導教授來當委員那有些老師甚至被不懂教學現場的律師或者是退休的校長來做審查甚至還有人他是教\n376703\t393875\t國文的但是他卻要被地理老師來做審查您覺得這樣子合理嗎是不是可以有所謂的這個地方政府的教育局或者第三方的單位我們來進行所謂的抽籤選任建立利益迴避跟專業的認證機制這個您同意嗎\n398312\t412861\t確實我們也發現有一些本來我們希望利益良善希望不要放縱也不要冤枉所以有一個更客觀的社會學者專家團體教育部也有這樣的一個事前委員的真人培訓\n416884\t430935\t調查委員的庫爾是由地方縣市教育局他上網去篩選三到五倍的人選然後把這個人選名單再交給這個學校學校校長來挑三個\n432116\t448305\t我想這個不可否認的其實在教學現場我們碰到的這些來跟我們申訴的這些老師他所看到的這些問題包含就是這些調查的委員形成一條龍的作業變成他們沒有任何的\n449225\t476362\t所謂的利益的迴避的問題那等於就是說一直同樣的都是這一群人甚至他們也有一些是完全沒有所謂的法證訓練的然後甚至也沒有在學校擔任過教職經驗他也被納入在這個所謂的調查的委員當中喔那我想這個部分其實我們應該要從制度面包含這個調查委員的資格那麼我想有很多的爭議喔\n477162\t501471\t不管是校事會議當中我們看到像是性評也好 霸凌也好學校有很多的部分在處理校事會議變成是球員兼裁判那這個部分其實也難免就會流於讓很多的老師會覺得我自己今天要進入到校事會議要被調查的過程當中他感覺是被凌遲的這個您同意嗎\n502401\t523350\t我想確實有一些案例我們也包含我個人也有一些老師直接把這個像我這個反應或者說投訴我們其實對一直在希望說這個制度裡面一定要看怎麼樣來修改一個真正無妄誤種誤種的這樣的一個讓不好的老師我們什麼時候可以修改\n524644\t543140\t剛剛我們講的這幾條什麼時候可以真的給前線老師一些實質上的一個幫助跟支持因為他們其實有的還是非常的有教學熱忱我們一直不斷的在講說不管是任何國中小現在的教師的缺額人力的不足的確也形成最大的一個問題其實最後影響的還是學生的受教權益\n546598\t563175\t謝謝委員提醒我想年底之前我們一定會有一個比較希望能夠更好的一個這個方向來修訂也就是說這個它真的是造成已經造成第一線上的一些老師的工作世氣跟教協上的干擾\n563615\t578357\t我們直接講到老師在被調查的期間他我剛剛說了他可能還要備課他有的人還要兼任所謂的這個行政上的一個處理其實他的身心壓力是非常非常之大就像我剛剛\n579258\t606288\t第一頁就看到這位代理老師他的留言還有他有所謂的聘期不續還有資格取消等等這樣子的問題但是他在被調查的這些期間他沒有任何的心理上的一個支持他甚至是孤立無援的你要他怎麼樣在教學現場繼續走下去我想請問一下部長有沒有考慮可以建立讓老師有一個\n607048\t626639\t教師支持的系統不管是法律上的協助心理上的輔導行政上的一個資源我覺得如果老師最後他真的能夠證明他自己的清白甚至要有一個可以讓他回復的一個機制不要讓他們默默的去承受所謂的這些莫須有的罪名\n627119\t631083\t如果剛剛就像我們剛剛講的成案只有2.6%剩下還有百分之三十幾是完全沒有成案的我想老師的部分他真的會被嚴重的打擊他在教學現場的一個熱情這個部分我們是不是可以也有這樣子的一個支持系統實質上來支持他們這應該不用等到年底這應該馬上就可以\n649100\t663348\t我想這不用我想因為我們現在心理輔導的知識系統本來就可以有六次但是我剛才也有委員關心我們可以到提供到八次這是沒有問題那法例的一個顧問禮兵我們也來跟地方這個教育\n665190\t688292\t這個教育基礎來看怎麼樣來協助學校在真正進入到一些法律的一些諮詢跟一些協助我想今天因為是今天其實因為時間非常的有限喔那我再次強調校事會議它不是法庭它應該是要幫助學校去釐清一些問題能夠我想制度其實不是只是在強調處罰啦\n689713\t709338\t也應該要有一個對話跟修復的空間讓老師能夠找回他們在教學上的熱情跟信心對學校的一個信任那我想親師之間的一個溝通那也是非常非常的重要那我最後呼籲幾點我們就往這個方向來做好不好我想我們應該要建立所謂的分級的制度\n709858\t738881\t那是不是要提高提高所謂的啟動校事會議的門檻適度的提高不要一點點的小小的事情就讓老師真的陷入到其中他真的會身心俱疲第二點就是我們怎麼樣保障就是被校事會議調查的這些老師們他們知情跟答辯的權利再來第三點是怎麼樣健全調查委員的選任還有培訓的一個制度我想這個也是由第三方要非常的公正才能夠\n739902\t763710\t讓老師能夠獲得這個清白或者是他要自證我想這個才是有幫助的那再來第四點我們是怎麼樣來推動第三方的審議的單位第五點設立教師支持跟法律援助的體系我想這一點我們第五點可以馬上就做我們讓整個所有的制度可以更明確程序可以更公平那對老師來講我們想學校是要讓老師能夠留下來是要讓老師可以教\n768271\t793987\t他能夠教甚至他敢教學的地方我想這個部長您應該要同意吧謝謝委員的這個意見我想都是非常寶貴這些東西我相信對未來的這個校室會議的一個處理一定有非常高的一個價值好 我們給更多的老師更多的支持因為最後還是因為學生的受教權益才是最重要的一部分好嗎是好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝 謝謝委員\n797423\t804179\t謝謝郭玉琴委員官員請回座待會我們在范雲委員結束質詢之後我們進行臨時提案的處理\n","txt":"接下來有請郭育晴委員質詢好 有請部長有請鄭部長備質詢 謝謝委員好\n好部長辛苦了我們今天是要來討論這個中小學的教室人力不足的一個問題那最近我的辦公室其實接到很多很多的陳情喔可以應該嚴格上有上百件都是跟校事會議有關那這一位呢是今天特別早上在我的臉書上留言的一位代理教師喔\n那他因為被家長濫訴那不僅是要出席這個刑事的訴訟那同時呢還有這個校事會議那目前呢他身上還有兩個案子是沒有結果其實身心俱疲他還要準備可能自己本身的教學的教材等等那我想這個過程當中其實他們\n除了前線的這些教師在跟我反應之外我覺得已經是達到了有求救這樣子的一個訊號那我想校師會議原本的好意其實是為了要維護學生的一個權益那要保障這個校園當中的一些秩序但是呢我們現在看到也許\n過程或者是制度上的不夠清楚跟不夠公正也引起了在校園尤其是在教學端的寒蟬效應我想這個問題其實是非常值得我們一起來看怎麼樣能夠來往比較好的方向去解決\n好 那我想這個部分我們可以看到這個是從新聞的資料上面顯示那整體的一個案件是每一年都在增加但是最後能夠成案的大概只有2.6%但沒有具體事證的高達36%但還有更在進行當中的也高達了61%點多那我想這個教學意見的不同 親師的溝通有落差\n甚至只要一點點小小的事情只要有人申訴他可能就馬上會啟動所謂的這個校式會議那初步來講其實他是沒有所謂的分流的一個處理那甚至有老師直接在跟我們反應他說是不是因為這樣人心惶惶我其實就不敢再\n我的這個整個教學的過程當中我不敢創新不敢嘗試甚至還有老師跟我們說難道我在教學的過程當中還要全程錄音自保嗎我想請教一下這個教育部我們有沒有可能在校事會議當中可以先初步的建立審查的機制那分不同的類型採取不同的分析的處理\n跟委員報告他本來就是以學校就有一個先初步的一個審查但是因為學校確實因為整個這樣一個氛圍就讓學校變成所有的不管輕重或者是實與否就都先進入就直接進入到校事調查我想這也是我們這一年來校事會議裡邊我們這一年來收集到很多第一線上的不管校長老師\n所以部長應該也覺得因為這樣一點點小小的爭議馬上就進入調查\n也就是說部長我們已經意識到就是學校第一線的老師跟我們反映的這些問題我們都已經我今天所有的內容跟問題其實都在反映第一線老師曾經反映過給我們的那我也會提出我的一些建議喔好再來很多的這個調查的案件當中其實老師沒有被完整的告知到底他自己被指控的內容是什麼\n那甚至有人是到了現場才發現說我只有一個小時能夠月卷同時在一個小時當中有時候他的資料他被調查的這些資料是去識別化甚至高達上百頁一個小時怎麼能夠吸收得了怎麼能夠看完這些所謂的這些被指控的一些內容那我們是不是能夠要求這個調查報告應該要完整的告知這個當事人才能夠保障\n讓就是被申訴的這些老師他有一個答辯的準備或者是說他有閱覽的一個權利這個部分我們是不是可以來嚴理增訂這樣子的一個部分提供給其他在學校第一現場的人\n我想這是應該的因為任何一個民主法這個社會裡面我們本來就不希望延緩任何一個這個好等於說他沒有犯錯你不應該要所以目前我們是沒有這樣子的一個機制對不對適當的這個等於說他的權益應該要受維護我想這一個部分我們來看怎麼樣來在整個流程裡面我剛才跟委員講了\n因為我們現在沒有落實那個初步的審查變成很多東西直接進到校舍也把學校中小學搞到人仰馬翻我想這我們一定要從流程裡面看怎麼樣來建立一個共識有一個更好的一個分流的一個\n那我們得到了這個部長的這個算是正面的一個回應了那接下來我想要問一下就是很多的學校的調查委員到底是怎麼產生的那有很多人跟我們反映說這個學校的這個調查的委員是校長指定甚至他會找自己的指導教授來當委員那有些老師甚至被不懂教學現場的律師或者是退休的校長來做審查甚至還有人他是教\n國文的但是他卻要被地理老師來做審查您覺得這樣子合理嗎是不是可以有所謂的這個地方政府的教育局或者第三方的單位我們來進行所謂的抽籤選任建立利益迴避跟專業的認證機制這個您同意嗎\n確實我們也發現有一些本來我們希望利益良善希望不要放縱也不要冤枉所以有一個更客觀的社會學者專家團體教育部也有這樣的一個事前委員的真人培訓\n調查委員的庫爾是由地方縣市教育局他上網去篩選三到五倍的人選然後把這個人選名單再交給這個學校學校校長來挑三個\n我想這個不可否認的其實在教學現場我們碰到的這些來跟我們申訴的這些老師他所看到的這些問題包含就是這些調查的委員形成一條龍的作業變成他們沒有任何的\n所謂的利益的迴避的問題那等於就是說一直同樣的都是這一群人甚至他們也有一些是完全沒有所謂的法證訓練的然後甚至也沒有在學校擔任過教職經驗他也被納入在這個所謂的調查的委員當中喔那我想這個部分其實我們應該要從制度面包含這個調查委員的資格那麼我想有很多的爭議喔\n不管是校事會議當中我們看到像是性評也好 霸凌也好學校有很多的部分在處理校事會議變成是球員兼裁判那這個部分其實也難免就會流於讓很多的老師會覺得我自己今天要進入到校事會議要被調查的過程當中他感覺是被凌遲的這個您同意嗎\n我想確實有一些案例我們也包含我個人也有一些老師直接把這個像我這個反應或者說投訴我們其實對一直在希望說這個制度裡面一定要看怎麼樣來修改一個真正無妄誤種誤種的這樣的一個讓不好的老師我們什麼時候可以修改\n剛剛我們講的這幾條什麼時候可以真的給前線老師一些實質上的一個幫助跟支持因為他們其實有的還是非常的有教學熱忱我們一直不斷的在講說不管是任何國中小現在的教師的缺額人力的不足的確也形成最大的一個問題其實最後影響的還是學生的受教權益\n謝謝委員提醒我想年底之前我們一定會有一個比較希望能夠更好的一個這個方向來修訂也就是說這個它真的是造成已經造成第一線上的一些老師的工作世氣跟教協上的干擾\n我們直接講到老師在被調查的期間他我剛剛說了他可能還要備課他有的人還要兼任所謂的這個行政上的一個處理其實他的身心壓力是非常非常之大就像我剛剛\n第一頁就看到這位代理老師他的留言還有他有所謂的聘期不續還有資格取消等等這樣子的問題但是他在被調查的這些期間他沒有任何的心理上的一個支持他甚至是孤立無援的你要他怎麼樣在教學現場繼續走下去我想請問一下部長有沒有考慮可以建立讓老師有一個\n教師支持的系統不管是法律上的協助心理上的輔導行政上的一個資源我覺得如果老師最後他真的能夠證明他自己的清白甚至要有一個可以讓他回復的一個機制不要讓他們默默的去承受所謂的這些莫須有的罪名\n如果剛剛就像我們剛剛講的成案只有2.6%剩下還有百分之三十幾是完全沒有成案的我想老師的部分他真的會被嚴重的打擊他在教學現場的一個熱情這個部分我們是不是可以也有這樣子的一個支持系統實質上來支持他們這應該不用等到年底這應該馬上就可以\n我想這不用我想因為我們現在心理輔導的知識系統本來就可以有六次但是我剛才也有委員關心我們可以到提供到八次這是沒有問題那法例的一個顧問禮兵我們也來跟地方這個教育\n這個教育基礎來看怎麼樣來協助學校在真正進入到一些法律的一些諮詢跟一些協助我想今天因為是今天其實因為時間非常的有限喔那我再次強調校事會議它不是法庭它應該是要幫助學校去釐清一些問題能夠我想制度其實不是只是在強調處罰啦\n也應該要有一個對話跟修復的空間讓老師能夠找回他們在教學上的熱情跟信心對學校的一個信任那我想親師之間的一個溝通那也是非常非常的重要那我最後呼籲幾點我們就往這個方向來做好不好我想我們應該要建立所謂的分級的制度\n那是不是要提高提高所謂的啟動校事會議的門檻適度的提高不要一點點的小小的事情就讓老師真的陷入到其中他真的會身心俱疲第二點就是我們怎麼樣保障就是被校事會議調查的這些老師們他們知情跟答辯的權利再來第三點是怎麼樣健全調查委員的選任還有培訓的一個制度我想這個也是由第三方要非常的公正才能夠\n讓老師能夠獲得這個清白或者是他要自證我想這個才是有幫助的那再來第四點我們是怎麼樣來推動第三方的審議的單位第五點設立教師支持跟法律援助的體系我想這一點我們第五點可以馬上就做我們讓整個所有的制度可以更明確程序可以更公平那對老師來講我們想學校是要讓老師能夠留下來是要讓老師可以教\n他能夠教甚至他敢教學的地方我想這個部長您應該要同意吧謝謝委員的這個意見我想都是非常寶貴這些東西我相信對未來的這個校室會議的一個處理一定有非常高的一個價值好 我們給更多的老師更多的支持因為最後還是因為學生的受教權益才是最重要的一部分好嗎是好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝 謝謝委員\n謝謝郭玉琴委員官員請回座待會我們在范雲委員結束質詢之後我們進行臨時提案的處理\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.269 --> 00:02.151\n接下來有請郭育晴委員質詢好有請部長有請鄭部長備質詢謝謝委員好\n\n00:20.882 --> 00:44.885\n好部長辛苦了我們今天是要來討論這個中小學的教室人力不足的一個問題那最近我的辦公室其實接到很多很多的陳情喔可以應該嚴格上有上百件都是跟校事會議有關那這一位呢是今天特別早上在我的臉書上留言的一位代理教師喔\n\n00:45.365 --> 01:05.195\n那他因為被家長濫訴那不僅是要出席這個刑事的訴訟那同時呢還有這個校事會議那目前呢他身上還有兩個案子是沒有結果其實身心俱疲他還要準備可能自己本身的教學的教材等等那我想這個過程當中其實他們\n\n01:07.296 --> 01:26.991\n除了前線的這些教師在跟我反應之外我覺得已經是達到了有求救這樣子的一個訊號那我想校師會議原本的好意其實是為了要維護學生的一個權益那要保障這個校園當中的一些秩序但是呢我們現在看到也許\n\n01:28.973 --> 01:45.635\n過程或者是制度上的不夠清楚跟不夠公正也引起了在校園尤其是在教學端的寒蟬效應我想這個問題其實是非常值得我們一起來看怎麼樣能夠來往比較好的方向去解決\n\n01:47.113 --> 02:00.976\n好那我想這個部分我們可以看到這個是從新聞的資料上面顯示那整體的一個案件是每一年都在增加但是最後能夠成案的大概只有2.6%但沒有具體事證的高達36%但還有更在進行當中的也高達了61%點多那我想這個教學意見的不同親師的溝通有落差\n\n02:14.259 --> 02:31.103\n甚至只要一點點小小的事情只要有人申訴他可能就馬上會啟動所謂的這個校式會議那初步來講其實他是沒有所謂的分流的一個處理那甚至有老師直接在跟我們反應他說是不是因為這樣人心惶惶我其實就不敢再\n\n02:34.324 --> 02:57.779\n我的這個整個教學的過程當中我不敢創新不敢嘗試甚至還有老師跟我們說難道我在教學的過程當中還要全程錄音自保嗎我想請教一下這個教育部我們有沒有可能在校事會議當中可以先初步的建立審查的機制那分不同的類型採取不同的分析的處理\n\n03:00.435 --> 03:26.624\n跟委員報告他本來就是以學校就有一個先初步的一個審查但是因為學校確實因為整個這樣一個氛圍就讓學校變成所有的不管輕重或者是實與否就都先進入就直接進入到校事調查我想這也是我們這一年來校事會議裡邊我們這一年來收集到很多第一線上的不管校長老師\n\n03:27.904 --> 03:28.785\n所以部長應該也覺得因為這樣一點點小小的爭議馬上就進入調查\n\n03:58.784 --> 04:23.735\n也就是說部長我們已經意識到就是學校第一線的老師跟我們反映的這些問題我們都已經我今天所有的內容跟問題其實都在反映第一線老師曾經反映過給我們的那我也會提出我的一些建議喔好再來很多的這個調查的案件當中其實老師沒有被完整的告知到底他自己被指控的內容是什麼\n\n04:24.295 --> 04:51.136\n那甚至有人是到了現場才發現說我只有一個小時能夠月卷同時在一個小時當中有時候他的資料他被調查的這些資料是去識別化甚至高達上百頁一個小時怎麼能夠吸收得了怎麼能夠看完這些所謂的這些被指控的一些內容那我們是不是能夠要求這個調查報告應該要完整的告知這個當事人才能夠保障\n\n04:52.698 --> 05:06.056\n讓就是被申訴的這些老師他有一個答辯的準備或者是說他有閱覽的一個權利這個部分我們是不是可以來嚴理增訂這樣子的一個部分提供給其他在學校第一現場的人\n\n05:07.312 --> 05:21.177\n我想這是應該的因為任何一個民主法這個社會裡面我們本來就不希望延緩任何一個這個好等於說他沒有犯錯你不應該要所以目前我們是沒有這樣子的一個機制對不對適當的這個等於說他的權益應該要受維護我想這一個部分我們來看怎麼樣來在整個流程裡面我剛才跟委員講了\n\n05:30.020 --> 05:45.863\n因為我們現在沒有落實那個初步的審查變成很多東西直接進到校舍也把學校中小學搞到人仰馬翻我想這我們一定要從流程裡面看怎麼樣來建立一個共識有一個更好的一個分流的一個\n\n05:46.243 --> 06:15.402\n那我們得到了這個部長的這個算是正面的一個回應了那接下來我想要問一下就是很多的學校的調查委員到底是怎麼產生的那有很多人跟我們反映說這個學校的這個調查的委員是校長指定甚至他會找自己的指導教授來當委員那有些老師甚至被不懂教學現場的律師或者是退休的校長來做審查甚至還有人他是教\n\n06:16.703 --> 06:33.875\n國文的但是他卻要被地理老師來做審查您覺得這樣子合理嗎是不是可以有所謂的這個地方政府的教育局或者第三方的單位我們來進行所謂的抽籤選任建立利益迴避跟專業的認證機制這個您同意嗎\n\n06:38.312 --> 06:52.861\n確實我們也發現有一些本來我們希望利益良善希望不要放縱也不要冤枉所以有一個更客觀的社會學者專家團體教育部也有這樣的一個事前委員的真人培訓\n\n06:56.884 --> 07:10.935\n調查委員的庫爾是由地方縣市教育局他上網去篩選三到五倍的人選然後把這個人選名單再交給這個學校學校校長來挑三個\n\n07:12.116 --> 07:28.305\n我想這個不可否認的其實在教學現場我們碰到的這些來跟我們申訴的這些老師他所看到的這些問題包含就是這些調查的委員形成一條龍的作業變成他們沒有任何的\n\n07:29.225 --> 07:56.362\n所謂的利益的迴避的問題那等於就是說一直同樣的都是這一群人甚至他們也有一些是完全沒有所謂的法證訓練的然後甚至也沒有在學校擔任過教職經驗他也被納入在這個所謂的調查的委員當中喔那我想這個部分其實我們應該要從制度面包含這個調查委員的資格那麼我想有很多的爭議喔\n\n07:57.162 --> 08:21.471\n不管是校事會議當中我們看到像是性評也好霸凌也好學校有很多的部分在處理校事會議變成是球員兼裁判那這個部分其實也難免就會流於讓很多的老師會覺得我自己今天要進入到校事會議要被調查的過程當中他感覺是被凌遲的這個您同意嗎\n\n08:22.401 --> 08:43.350\n我想確實有一些案例我們也包含我個人也有一些老師直接把這個像我這個反應或者說投訴我們其實對一直在希望說這個制度裡面一定要看怎麼樣來修改一個真正無妄誤種誤種的這樣的一個讓不好的老師我們什麼時候可以修改\n\n08:44.644 --> 09:03.140\n剛剛我們講的這幾條什麼時候可以真的給前線老師一些實質上的一個幫助跟支持因為他們其實有的還是非常的有教學熱忱我們一直不斷的在講說不管是任何國中小現在的教師的缺額人力的不足的確也形成最大的一個問題其實最後影響的還是學生的受教權益\n\n09:06.598 --> 09:23.175\n謝謝委員提醒我想年底之前我們一定會有一個比較希望能夠更好的一個這個方向來修訂也就是說這個它真的是造成已經造成第一線上的一些老師的工作世氣跟教協上的干擾\n\n09:23.615 --> 09:38.357\n我們直接講到老師在被調查的期間他我剛剛說了他可能還要備課他有的人還要兼任所謂的這個行政上的一個處理其實他的身心壓力是非常非常之大就像我剛剛\n\n09:39.258 --> 10:06.288\n第一頁就看到這位代理老師他的留言還有他有所謂的聘期不續還有資格取消等等這樣子的問題但是他在被調查的這些期間他沒有任何的心理上的一個支持他甚至是孤立無援的你要他怎麼樣在教學現場繼續走下去我想請問一下部長有沒有考慮可以建立讓老師有一個\n\n10:07.048 --> 10:26.639\n教師支持的系統不管是法律上的協助心理上的輔導行政上的一個資源我覺得如果老師最後他真的能夠證明他自己的清白甚至要有一個可以讓他回復的一個機制不要讓他們默默的去承受所謂的這些莫須有的罪名\n\n10:27.119 --> 10:31.083\n如果剛剛就像我們剛剛講的成案只有2.6%剩下還有百分之三十幾是完全沒有成案的我想老師的部分他真的會被嚴重的打擊他在教學現場的一個熱情這個部分我們是不是可以也有這樣子的一個支持系統實質上來支持他們這應該不用等到年底這應該馬上就可以\n\n10:49.100 --> 11:03.348\n我想這不用我想因為我們現在心理輔導的知識系統本來就可以有六次但是我剛才也有委員關心我們可以到提供到八次這是沒有問題那法例的一個顧問禮兵我們也來跟地方這個教育\n\n11:05.190 --> 11:28.292\n這個教育基礎來看怎麼樣來協助學校在真正進入到一些法律的一些諮詢跟一些協助我想今天因為是今天其實因為時間非常的有限喔那我再次強調校事會議它不是法庭它應該是要幫助學校去釐清一些問題能夠我想制度其實不是只是在強調處罰啦\n\n11:29.713 --> 11:49.338\n也應該要有一個對話跟修復的空間讓老師能夠找回他們在教學上的熱情跟信心對學校的一個信任那我想親師之間的一個溝通那也是非常非常的重要那我最後呼籲幾點我們就往這個方向來做好不好我想我們應該要建立所謂的分級的制度\n\n11:49.858 --> 12:18.881\n那是不是要提高提高所謂的啟動校事會議的門檻適度的提高不要一點點的小小的事情就讓老師真的陷入到其中他真的會身心俱疲第二點就是我們怎麼樣保障就是被校事會議調查的這些老師們他們知情跟答辯的權利再來第三點是怎麼樣健全調查委員的選任還有培訓的一個制度我想這個也是由第三方要非常的公正才能夠\n\n12:19.902 --> 12:43.710\n讓老師能夠獲得這個清白或者是他要自證我想這個才是有幫助的那再來第四點我們是怎麼樣來推動第三方的審議的單位第五點設立教師支持跟法律援助的體系我想這一點我們第五點可以馬上就做我們讓整個所有的制度可以更明確程序可以更公平那對老師來講我們想學校是要讓老師能夠留下來是要讓老師可以教\n\n12:48.271 --> 13:13.987\n他能夠教甚至他敢教學的地方我想這個部長您應該要同意吧謝謝委員的這個意見我想都是非常寶貴這些東西我相信對未來的這個校室會議的一個處理一定有非常高的一個價值好我們給更多的老師更多的支持因為最後還是因為學生的受教權益才是最重要的一部分好嗎是好謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝謝謝委員\n\n13:17.423 --> 13:24.179\n謝謝郭玉琴委員官員請回座待會我們在范雲委員結束質詢之後我們進行臨時提案的處理\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.269,"end":2.151,"text":"接下來有請郭育晴委員質詢好 有請部長有請鄭部長備質詢 謝謝委員好"},{"start":20.882,"end":44.885,"text":"好部長辛苦了我們今天是要來討論這個中小學的教室人力不足的一個問題那最近我的辦公室其實接到很多很多的陳情喔可以應該嚴格上有上百件都是跟校事會議有關那這一位呢是今天特別早上在我的臉書上留言的一位代理教師喔"},{"start":45.365,"end":65.195,"text":"那他因為被家長濫訴那不僅是要出席這個刑事的訴訟那同時呢還有這個校事會議那目前呢他身上還有兩個案子是沒有結果其實身心俱疲他還要準備可能自己本身的教學的教材等等那我想這個過程當中其實他們"},{"start":67.296,"end":86.991,"text":"除了前線的這些教師在跟我反應之外我覺得已經是達到了有求救這樣子的一個訊號那我想校師會議原本的好意其實是為了要維護學生的一個權益那要保障這個校園當中的一些秩序但是呢我們現在看到也許"},{"start":88.973,"end":105.635,"text":"過程或者是制度上的不夠清楚跟不夠公正也引起了在校園尤其是在教學端的寒蟬效應我想這個問題其實是非常值得我們一起來看怎麼樣能夠來往比較好的方向去解決"},{"start":107.113,"end":120.976,"text":"好 那我想這個部分我們可以看到這個是從新聞的資料上面顯示那整體的一個案件是每一年都在增加但是最後能夠成案的大概只有2.6%但沒有具體事證的高達36%但還有更在進行當中的也高達了61%點多那我想這個教學意見的不同 親師的溝通有落差"},{"start":134.259,"end":151.103,"text":"甚至只要一點點小小的事情只要有人申訴他可能就馬上會啟動所謂的這個校式會議那初步來講其實他是沒有所謂的分流的一個處理那甚至有老師直接在跟我們反應他說是不是因為這樣人心惶惶我其實就不敢再"},{"start":154.324,"end":177.779,"text":"我的這個整個教學的過程當中我不敢創新不敢嘗試甚至還有老師跟我們說難道我在教學的過程當中還要全程錄音自保嗎我想請教一下這個教育部我們有沒有可能在校事會議當中可以先初步的建立審查的機制那分不同的類型採取不同的分析的處理"},{"start":180.435,"end":206.624,"text":"跟委員報告他本來就是以學校就有一個先初步的一個審查但是因為學校確實因為整個這樣一個氛圍就讓學校變成所有的不管輕重或者是實與否就都先進入就直接進入到校事調查我想這也是我們這一年來校事會議裡邊我們這一年來收集到很多第一線上的不管校長老師"},{"start":207.904,"end":208.785,"text":"所以部長應該也覺得因為這樣一點點小小的爭議馬上就進入調查"},{"start":238.784,"end":263.735,"text":"也就是說部長我們已經意識到就是學校第一線的老師跟我們反映的這些問題我們都已經我今天所有的內容跟問題其實都在反映第一線老師曾經反映過給我們的那我也會提出我的一些建議喔好再來很多的這個調查的案件當中其實老師沒有被完整的告知到底他自己被指控的內容是什麼"},{"start":264.295,"end":291.136,"text":"那甚至有人是到了現場才發現說我只有一個小時能夠月卷同時在一個小時當中有時候他的資料他被調查的這些資料是去識別化甚至高達上百頁一個小時怎麼能夠吸收得了怎麼能夠看完這些所謂的這些被指控的一些內容那我們是不是能夠要求這個調查報告應該要完整的告知這個當事人才能夠保障"},{"start":292.698,"end":306.056,"text":"讓就是被申訴的這些老師他有一個答辯的準備或者是說他有閱覽的一個權利這個部分我們是不是可以來嚴理增訂這樣子的一個部分提供給其他在學校第一現場的人"},{"start":307.312,"end":321.177,"text":"我想這是應該的因為任何一個民主法這個社會裡面我們本來就不希望延緩任何一個這個好等於說他沒有犯錯你不應該要所以目前我們是沒有這樣子的一個機制對不對適當的這個等於說他的權益應該要受維護我想這一個部分我們來看怎麼樣來在整個流程裡面我剛才跟委員講了"},{"start":330.02,"end":345.863,"text":"因為我們現在沒有落實那個初步的審查變成很多東西直接進到校舍也把學校中小學搞到人仰馬翻我想這我們一定要從流程裡面看怎麼樣來建立一個共識有一個更好的一個分流的一個"},{"start":346.243,"end":375.402,"text":"那我們得到了這個部長的這個算是正面的一個回應了那接下來我想要問一下就是很多的學校的調查委員到底是怎麼產生的那有很多人跟我們反映說這個學校的這個調查的委員是校長指定甚至他會找自己的指導教授來當委員那有些老師甚至被不懂教學現場的律師或者是退休的校長來做審查甚至還有人他是教"},{"start":376.703,"end":393.875,"text":"國文的但是他卻要被地理老師來做審查您覺得這樣子合理嗎是不是可以有所謂的這個地方政府的教育局或者第三方的單位我們來進行所謂的抽籤選任建立利益迴避跟專業的認證機制這個您同意嗎"},{"start":398.312,"end":412.861,"text":"確實我們也發現有一些本來我們希望利益良善希望不要放縱也不要冤枉所以有一個更客觀的社會學者專家團體教育部也有這樣的一個事前委員的真人培訓"},{"start":416.884,"end":430.935,"text":"調查委員的庫爾是由地方縣市教育局他上網去篩選三到五倍的人選然後把這個人選名單再交給這個學校學校校長來挑三個"},{"start":432.116,"end":448.305,"text":"我想這個不可否認的其實在教學現場我們碰到的這些來跟我們申訴的這些老師他所看到的這些問題包含就是這些調查的委員形成一條龍的作業變成他們沒有任何的"},{"start":449.225,"end":476.362,"text":"所謂的利益的迴避的問題那等於就是說一直同樣的都是這一群人甚至他們也有一些是完全沒有所謂的法證訓練的然後甚至也沒有在學校擔任過教職經驗他也被納入在這個所謂的調查的委員當中喔那我想這個部分其實我們應該要從制度面包含這個調查委員的資格那麼我想有很多的爭議喔"},{"start":477.162,"end":501.471,"text":"不管是校事會議當中我們看到像是性評也好 霸凌也好學校有很多的部分在處理校事會議變成是球員兼裁判那這個部分其實也難免就會流於讓很多的老師會覺得我自己今天要進入到校事會議要被調查的過程當中他感覺是被凌遲的這個您同意嗎"},{"start":502.401,"end":523.35,"text":"我想確實有一些案例我們也包含我個人也有一些老師直接把這個像我這個反應或者說投訴我們其實對一直在希望說這個制度裡面一定要看怎麼樣來修改一個真正無妄誤種誤種的這樣的一個讓不好的老師我們什麼時候可以修改"},{"start":524.644,"end":543.14,"text":"剛剛我們講的這幾條什麼時候可以真的給前線老師一些實質上的一個幫助跟支持因為他們其實有的還是非常的有教學熱忱我們一直不斷的在講說不管是任何國中小現在的教師的缺額人力的不足的確也形成最大的一個問題其實最後影響的還是學生的受教權益"},{"start":546.598,"end":563.175,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我想年底之前我們一定會有一個比較希望能夠更好的一個這個方向來修訂也就是說這個它真的是造成已經造成第一線上的一些老師的工作世氣跟教協上的干擾"},{"start":563.615,"end":578.357,"text":"我們直接講到老師在被調查的期間他我剛剛說了他可能還要備課他有的人還要兼任所謂的這個行政上的一個處理其實他的身心壓力是非常非常之大就像我剛剛"},{"start":579.258,"end":606.288,"text":"第一頁就看到這位代理老師他的留言還有他有所謂的聘期不續還有資格取消等等這樣子的問題但是他在被調查的這些期間他沒有任何的心理上的一個支持他甚至是孤立無援的你要他怎麼樣在教學現場繼續走下去我想請問一下部長有沒有考慮可以建立讓老師有一個"},{"start":607.048,"end":626.639,"text":"教師支持的系統不管是法律上的協助心理上的輔導行政上的一個資源我覺得如果老師最後他真的能夠證明他自己的清白甚至要有一個可以讓他回復的一個機制不要讓他們默默的去承受所謂的這些莫須有的罪名"},{"start":627.119,"end":631.083,"text":"如果剛剛就像我們剛剛講的成案只有2.6%剩下還有百分之三十幾是完全沒有成案的我想老師的部分他真的會被嚴重的打擊他在教學現場的一個熱情這個部分我們是不是可以也有這樣子的一個支持系統實質上來支持他們這應該不用等到年底這應該馬上就可以"},{"start":649.1,"end":663.348,"text":"我想這不用我想因為我們現在心理輔導的知識系統本來就可以有六次但是我剛才也有委員關心我們可以到提供到八次這是沒有問題那法例的一個顧問禮兵我們也來跟地方這個教育"},{"start":665.19,"end":688.292,"text":"這個教育基礎來看怎麼樣來協助學校在真正進入到一些法律的一些諮詢跟一些協助我想今天因為是今天其實因為時間非常的有限喔那我再次強調校事會議它不是法庭它應該是要幫助學校去釐清一些問題能夠我想制度其實不是只是在強調處罰啦"},{"start":689.713,"end":709.338,"text":"也應該要有一個對話跟修復的空間讓老師能夠找回他們在教學上的熱情跟信心對學校的一個信任那我想親師之間的一個溝通那也是非常非常的重要那我最後呼籲幾點我們就往這個方向來做好不好我想我們應該要建立所謂的分級的制度"},{"start":709.858,"end":738.881,"text":"那是不是要提高提高所謂的啟動校事會議的門檻適度的提高不要一點點的小小的事情就讓老師真的陷入到其中他真的會身心俱疲第二點就是我們怎麼樣保障就是被校事會議調查的這些老師們他們知情跟答辯的權利再來第三點是怎麼樣健全調查委員的選任還有培訓的一個制度我想這個也是由第三方要非常的公正才能夠"},{"start":739.902,"end":763.71,"text":"讓老師能夠獲得這個清白或者是他要自證我想這個才是有幫助的那再來第四點我們是怎麼樣來推動第三方的審議的單位第五點設立教師支持跟法律援助的體系我想這一點我們第五點可以馬上就做我們讓整個所有的制度可以更明確程序可以更公平那對老師來講我們想學校是要讓老師能夠留下來是要讓老師可以教"},{"start":768.271,"end":793.987,"text":"他能夠教甚至他敢教學的地方我想這個部長您應該要同意吧謝謝委員的這個意見我想都是非常寶貴這些東西我相信對未來的這個校室會議的一個處理一定有非常高的一個價值好 我們給更多的老師更多的支持因為最後還是因為學生的受教權益才是最重要的一部分好嗎是好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":797.423,"end":804.179,"text":"謝謝郭玉琴委員官員請回座待會我們在范雲委員結束質詢之後我們進行臨時提案的處理"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":668,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（11時53分）有請部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長備詢，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：部長辛苦了。我們今天要來討論中小學教師人力不足的問題，最近我的辦公室接到很多的陳情，嚴格上應該有上百件都是跟校事會議有關。簡報上的這一位是今天早上特別在我臉書上留言的代理教師，他因為被家長濫訴，不僅要出席刑事訴訟，同時還有校事會議，目前他身上還有兩個案子是沒有結果的，其實身心俱疲，但他還要準備本身的教學教材等等。","在這個過程當中，除了前線的這些教師在跟我反映之外，我覺得已經達到了求救的訊號，我想校事會議原本的好意其實是為了要維護學生的權益，要維護校園當中的一些秩序，但是我們現在看到，也許是過程或者是制度上不夠清楚跟不夠公正，也在校園，尤其是在教學端引起了寒蟬效應，我想這個問題其實是非常值得我們一起來看，要怎麼樣能夠往比較好的方向去解決。我想這個部分我們可以看到，這個新聞上的資料顯示，整體的案件是每一年都在增加，但是最後能夠成案的大概只有2.6%，沒有具體事證的高達36%，還在進行當中的也高達了百分之六十一點多。教學意見的不同、親師的溝通有落差，甚至一點點小小的事情，只要有人申訴，它可能就馬上會啟動校事會議，初步來講，其實它是沒有分流處理的，甚至有老師直接跟我們反映，他說是不是因為這樣使得人心惶惶，他在整個教學過程當中就不敢創新、不敢嘗試，甚至還有老師跟我們說，難道他在教學的過程當中還要全程錄音自保嗎？我想請教一下教育部，你們有沒有可能在校事會議當中先建立初步的審查機制，分不同的類型，採取不同的分級處理？請教部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，本來學校就有一個初步的審查，但是確實是因為這樣的氛圍，讓學校變成不管輕重或者事實如何，所有案子就都直接進入到校事調查，我想這也是我們這一年來在校事會議裡面蒐集到很多第一線的，不管是校長、老師，還有許多家長的反映。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以部長應該也覺得因為這樣一點點小小的爭議，馬上就進入調查不合理對吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，因為現在所有的審查，包含校事會議，都是委託校外這些專業的人士，本來是希望能夠秉持更公開的態度，但是對學校、校長、老師來講，他會認為他們有這些專業沒有錯，但對學校裡面真正的運作可能並沒有辦法掌握地那麼精準。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，也就是說，部長你們已經意識到學校第一線的老師跟我們反映的這些問題，你們都已經……"],["鄭部長英耀：是，我們現在希望能夠蒐集更豐富的資料，必要的時候我們去做一些調整。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我今天所有的內容跟問題其實都是第一線的老師曾經反映給我們的，我也會提出我的一些建議。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：再來，很多的調查案件當中，其實老師沒有被完整的告知他被指控的內容到底是什麼，甚至有人是到了現場才發現他只有一個小時能夠閱卷，同時這一個小時當中，有時候他被調查的這些資料是去識別化的，甚至高達上百頁，一個小時怎麼能夠吸收得了，怎麼能夠看完這些被指控的內容，所以我們是不是能夠要求調查報告應該要完整的告知當事人？才能夠保障被申訴的這些老師，讓他有答辯的準備，或者是讓他有閱覽的權利，這個部分你們是不是可以來研擬、增訂，提供給其他在學校第一現場的人？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想這是應該的，因為任何一個民主法治的社會本來就不希望冤枉任何一個人，等於說他沒有犯錯，你不應該……"],["郭委員昱晴：是，目前我們是沒有這樣子的機制，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：等於說他的權益應該要受維護，我想這個部分我們來看怎麼樣在整個流程裡面改善，誠如我剛才跟委員講的，因為我們現在沒有落實初步的審查，變成很多東西直接進到校事會議，也把學校、中小學搞到人仰馬翻，我想這個我們一定要從流程裡面來看怎麼樣建立一個共識，有一個更好的分流機制。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我們得到了部長算是正面的一個回應了。接下來我想要問一下，很多學校的調查委員到底是怎麼產生的？有很多人跟我們反映，學校的調查委員是校長指定，甚至他會找自己的指導教授來當委員，有些老師甚至被不懂教學現場的律師或者是退休的校長審查，甚至還有人是教國文的，但是他卻要被地理老師審查，您覺得這樣子合理嗎？是不是可以由地方政府的教育局或者第三方的單位來進行抽籤選任，建立利益迴避跟專業的認證機制，這個您同意嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：確實我們發現有一些情況，本來我們立意良善，希望不要放縱，也不要冤枉，所以才有一個更客觀的社會、學者專家團體，教育部也有這樣的一個事前的委員增能培訓，所以這個調查委員的pool是由地方縣市政府教育局上網去篩選3到5倍的人選，然後把這個人選名單再交給學校，由學校校長來挑3個或者5個人。"],["郭委員昱晴：不可否認的，其實在教學現場我們碰到來跟我們申訴的這些老師，他所看到的問題包含這些調查委員形成一條龍作業，變成他們沒有任何的利益迴避問題，等於說一直都是同樣的這群人，甚至他們有一些人是完全沒有法政訓練的，也有沒有在學校擔任過教職的經驗，但也被納入調查委員當中，我想這個部分其實我們應該要從制度面，包含調查委員的資格來著手。那麼我想也有很多的爭議，不管是校事會議當中我們看到的，像是性平也好，霸凌也好，學校在處理校事會議時，有很多的部分變成是球員兼裁判，這個部分其實也難免會流於讓很多的老師覺得他今天要進入到校事會議被調查的過程當中，他是被凌遲的，這個您同意嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想確實有一些案例，包含也有一些老師直接向我反映或者投訴，我們其實一直希望這個制度毋枉毋縱，看怎麼樣來修改，讓不好的老師……"],["郭委員昱晴：你們什麼時候可以修改？剛剛我們講的這幾條，什麼時候可以真的給前線老師一些實質上的幫助跟支持？因為他們其實有的還是非常有教學熱誠。我們一直不斷地在講說不管是任何國中小，現在教師的缺額、人力的不足，的確也形成最大的一個問題，其實最後影響的還是學生的受教權益。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，我想年底之前我們一定會往更好的方向來修訂。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，年底之前。"],["鄭部長英耀：這個真的是已經造成對第一線的一些老師工作士氣跟教學上的干擾。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，老師在被調查的期間，我剛剛也說了，他可能還要備課，有的人還要兼任行政上的業務，其實他的身心壓力是非常非常之大，就像剛剛簡報第1頁我們就看到這位代理老師的留言，還有他有聘期不續、資格被取消等等問題，但是他在被調查期間，沒有任何心理上的支持，他甚至是孤立無援的，你要他怎麼在教學現場繼續走下去？我想請問一下部長，有沒有考慮建立一個教師支持的系統，不管是法律上的協助、心理上的輔導、行政上的資源？我覺得如果老師最後真的能夠證明他自己的清白，甚至要有一個可以讓他回復的機制，不要讓他們默默地去承受這些莫須有的罪名，就像我們剛剛講的，成案只有2.6%，剩下還有百分之三十幾是完全沒有成案的，我想老師在教學現場的熱情真的會被嚴重打擊，這個部分我們是不是也可以有這樣子的一個支持系統，實質上來支持他們？這個應該不用等到年底，應該馬上就可以做了吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，我想這不用等，因為我們現在心理輔導的支持系統本來就可以有6次，剛才也有委員關心，我們可以提供到8次，這是沒有問題的。法律的顧問裡邊，我們也來跟地方教育局處討論看怎麼樣來協助，學校真正進入到一些法律的諮詢跟協助，應該要建立這樣的機制。"],["郭委員昱晴：今天因為時間非常有限，我再次強調，校事會議不是法庭，他應該是要幫助學校去釐清一些問題。我想制度其實不是只是在強調處罰，也應該要有一個對話跟修復的空間，讓老師能夠找回他們在教學上的熱情跟信心以及對學校的信任。我想親師之間的溝通也是非常非常的重要。","我最後呼籲幾點，我們就往這個方向來做，好不好？我想我們應該要建立所謂的分級制度，是不是要適度地提高啟動校事會議的門檻，不要一點點小小的事情，就讓老師真的陷入到其中，他真的會身心俱疲。第二點，我們怎麼樣保障被校事會議調查的這些老師們，他們的知情跟答辯的權利。再來第三點，怎麼樣健全調查委員的選任還有培訓的制度，我想這個也是要由第三方非常的公正，才能夠讓老師獲得清白，或者是他要自證，我想這才是有幫助的。再來第四點，我們要怎麼樣來推動第三方的審議單位。第五點，設立教師支持跟法律援助體系。我想這一點，亦即第五點我們可以馬上就做，讓整個制度可以更明確，程序可以更公平。對老師來講，我想學校是要讓老師能夠留下來，是要讓老師可以教，他能夠教甚至他敢教學的地方，我想這個部長您應該要同意吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的意見，我想都是非常寶貴，這些東西我相信對未來校事會議的處理，一定有非常高的價值。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我們給更多老師更多的支持，因為最後學生的受教權益才是最重要的一部分，好嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員，官員請回座。","待會在范雲委員結束質詢之後，我們進行臨時提案的處理。同時也因為接近用餐時間，如果有血糖或者是其他的原因，有必要的個人可以私下用餐。因為今天的議題我想非常相對的很嚴肅，我們希望會場儘可能的保持對委員跟官員的尊重，如果有用餐的狀況的話，我們可能就儘量私下或者整個音量或狀態請麻煩控制一下。","我們接下來有請范雲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-18","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","劉書彬","萬美玲","陳秀寳","張雅琳","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","范雲","李坤城","黃捷","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","陳培瑜","葉元之","黃國昌","高金素梅","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":3,"meetingDate":["2025-08-07"],"gazette_id":"1147202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長列席就「全國中小學教師人力不足現況與具體因應對策」進行專題報告並備\n質詢；二、邀請教育部部長、國家科學及技術委員會、衛生福利部列席就「如何強化研究計畫之\n人體研究倫理把關機制，以保障人權，捍衛科研價值，並避免類似台師大女足抽血違反研究倫理\n之案件再次發生」進行專題報告，並備質詢；三、邀請教育部部長、行政院人事行政總處及行政\n院主計總處列席就「9月9日運動部成立籌備情形與後續推動規劃」進行專題報告並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147202_00002"}}}