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\"你們說這個十四案是因為有收到學生的陳情有人檢舉所以你們介入處理但是其他相關的包括運科資源計畫底下的兩百多個案子包括這個周老師跟這個陳慶忠教授陳忠慶教授底下涉及血液樣本的二十九個案子其實都應該要清查才對啊都應該要清查才對啊為什麼有人檢舉才處理\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 53.394, \"end\": 54.075, \"score\": 0.68}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"十\", \"start\": 54.075, \"end\": 54.235, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"四\", \"start\": 54.235, \"end\": 54.355, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 54.355, \"end\": 54.535, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 54.535, \"end\": 54.635, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 54.635, \"end\": 54.755, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 54.755, \"end\": 54.935, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"收\", \"start\": 54.935, \"end\": 55.095, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 55.095, \"end\": 55.275, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 55.275, \"end\": 55.415, \"score\": 0.652}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 55.415, 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{\"word\": \"涉\", \"start\": 97.941, \"end\": 98.061, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 98.061, \"end\": 98.081, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 98.081, \"end\": 98.101, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"試\"}, {\"word\": \"驗\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 98.101, \"end\": 98.121, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 98.121, \"end\": 98.141, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 98.141, \"end\": 98.241, \"score\": 0.633}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 98.241, \"end\": 98.261, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"竟\", \"start\": 98.261, \"end\": 98.281, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 98.281, \"end\": 98.441, \"score\": 0.68}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 98.441, \"end\": 98.461, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 98.461, \"end\": 98.602, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"需\", \"start\": 98.602, \"end\": 98.622, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 98.622, \"end\": 98.642, \"score\": 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\"報告委員確實我們現在除了昨天有專案到台師大去做訪查之外我們也從7月1號開始停止台師大的一個新修理的新案我們要他齊具相關的檢討報告之後我們會再提我們教育部的IRB再好好的檢視一次這部分我們會遵守人體研究法的相關規定來檢視台師大的一個整個IRB的運作機制\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 306.834, \"end\": 306.995, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 306.995, \"end\": 308.015, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 308.015, \"end\": 308.516, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 308.516, \"end\": 308.896, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"除\", \"start\": 308.896, \"end\": 309.036, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 309.036, \"end\": 309.216, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"昨\", \"start\": 309.216, \"end\": 309.437, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 309.437, \"end\": 309.657, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 309.657, \"end\": 310.057, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 310.057, \"end\": 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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,337 --> 00:00:34,522\n好部長好今天時間很短但是這個兩週之前我們發生的高教裡面國際的學術醜聞這件事情我認為有必要追蹤下去因為其實我看到的時候真的非常非常的震驚就是台師大的抽血案這件事情雖然簡同學他要的很簡單他說他要的只是周老師跟台師大的一個道歉那他最後也獲得了這個道歉但是他獲得道歉之後還有很多真相還沒有釐清啊\n\n2\n00:00:35,635 --> 00:00:48,669\n接下來釐清真相這件事情我相信是最重要的所以這個腳步我們絕對不能停下來那昨天我看到最新的消息是接下來會有三個學校裡面有14案正在清查是嗎是的那其實就像剛剛范議員講的我今天來這邊也是想問其實不只這14案啊\n\n3\n00:00:53,394 --> 00:01:13,828\n你們說這個十四案是因為有收到學生的陳情有人檢舉所以你們介入處理但是其他相關的包括運科資源計畫底下的兩百多個案子包括這個周老師跟這個陳慶忠教授陳忠慶教授底下涉及血液樣本的二十九個案子其實都應該要清查才對啊都應該要清查才對啊為什麼有人檢舉才處理\n\n4\n00:01:19,822 --> 00:01:34,397\n我想跟我們報告就是說我們現階段當然這個直接的這個事件的關係我們優先處理但是我們事實上也全面的希望能夠再有一個這個相關的一些一個檢核\n\n5\n00:01:35,618 --> 00:01:38,982\n所以全面清查很重要我再講一次全面清查很重要為什麼呢因為剛剛也有提到有一些明明就很明顯涉及人體試驗法可是你們竟然沒有需要申請IRB這件事情何等嚴重\n\n6\n00:01:53,738 --> 00:02:07,547\n那甚至從這個兩個週兩週之前我們在問的這一些案子裡面這個周老師涉及的案子裡面到現在這一些寫意的樣本寫用在哪裡沒有人告訴我們耶甚至學生的名單都對不起來耶\n\n7\n00:02:12,646 --> 00:02:29,762\n這些事情難道不嚴重嗎為什麼到現在都沒有一個人給社會一個交代我們做研究是可以這樣做的嗎這些事情不是都要按部就班的嗎甚至申請IRB或是REC這一些倫理工作都是做研究最基本最基本要做的事情\n\n8\n00:02:30,613 --> 00:02:59,488\n是謝謝委員我們在7月21號組成跨部會專案小組之後就分三個層面來清查第一個是全面的清查成州兩位老師那針對有特別總共幾案目前國科會跟相關部體育署回報給我們的大概有三十幾案涉及到從他任教以來民國九十年的案子那裡頭針對有特別同學或者是檢舉人特別有檢舉的\n\n9\n00:03:00,188 --> 00:03:16,557\n只有14案嗎14案的部分我們是實地查訪可是剛剛有報告的全面清查的部分我們已經請各個學校相關的IRB要在8月8號之前把他們的清查結果報教育部所以這個部分是有同步在進行的\n\n10\n00:03:17,017 --> 00:03:40,209\n好那這個拜託我剛剛講的第一個這些案子裡面到底血用在哪裡啊怎麼會到現在叫學生抽血然後這些血沒有用在應該要核實的這個計畫裡面這件事情拜託一定要優先處理好嗎另外就是IRB這個我特別把當時台師大的倫理委員倫理審查委員會裡面的會議記錄找出來因為我覺得太荒謬了\n\n11\n00:03:45,373 --> 00:03:54,781\n一片空白會議記錄是一片空白然後呢這個主席然後所有出席的委員有沒有意見沒有意見全數通過我光是看到這個RB的審查過程我覺得不可思議可以長這樣嗎\n\n12\n00:04:04,286 --> 00:04:28,666\n我不知道是真的流於形式還是像你們說的他們有隱匿的情況就算他們送假的資料都還是有很多預防的機會才對啊因為我必須要說其實這個研究案我有看到有另外一個子計畫裡面有納入一家其他一個大學的醫學中心然後這個醫學中心的IRB在審查本案的時候認為教授收案只屬學生\n\n13\n00:04:29,727 --> 00:04:55,736\n不知道能不能確保學生的自主同意所以他們提出了質疑最後他們怎麼做他們把這個案子撤掉了也就是說有其他學校針對同一個研究案的IRB在審查過程他們有發現問題然後他們選擇撤案因為他們知道這個在IRB上很可能是不會過的結果台師大過了所以我覺得台師大IRB中心\n\n14\n00:04:56,736 --> 00:05:01,501\n是不是應該出來面對出來檢討這件事情非常嚴重\n\n15\n00:05:06,834 --> 00:05:32,236\n報告委員確實我們現在除了昨天有專案到台師大去做訪查之外我們也從7月1號開始停止台師大的一個新修理的新案我們要他齊具相關的檢討報告之後我們會再提我們教育部的IRB再好好的檢視一次這部分我們會遵守人體研究法的相關規定來檢視台師大的一個整個IRB的運作機制\n\n16\n00:05:32,796 --> 00:05:35,777\n好當然你們剛剛也說該開罰你們也開罰了該送刑事責任的你們也送了有一些造假的有一些違法的部分你們都已經在處理了但是我很怕這個是體育界裡面的陋習我最怕的是這件事情他們覺得不需要送但明明涉及很多未成年\n\n17\n00:05:54,324 --> 00:06:01,573\n甚至是學生甚至他們長期以來在全市的文化裡面長期慣性的把學生當成試驗的對象\n\n18\n00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:26,482\n這是我最擔心的所以不要讓IRB變成只是橡皮圖這樣更不能變成是形同虛設的一個單位它要實際進到實質審查的功能這個拜託這個是教育部現在最重要最重要的責任不要讓國際上覺得哇台灣在做研究我們的高校環境是如此的糟糕\n\n19\n00:06:28,124 --> 00:06:43,080\n連這種基本的把關都做不到然後最後我本來要提一個臨時提案但是礙於時間我直接講就是我跟體育署也討論過了就是在單項協會裡面應該要有反霸凌教育這件事情因為我也很擔心說在\n\n20\n00:06:44,101 --> 00:06:51,828\n體育界裡面長期有一些基本的這種對於權勢的不認知或者是他們對於霸凌文化的認識不夠深導致於說他們把這種壓迫的行為一代又一代的傳下去覺得說鐵血教育是對的覺得說我就是老師學生體育的學生對我就只有絕對的服從絕對不是這樣嘛\n\n21\n00:07:06,500 --> 00:07:26,052\n所以這種文化一定要改善那也希望可以徹底的淘汰這種權勢的霸凌行為所以我也希望在這邊具體建議教育部體育署接下來所有該上這種反霸凌教育的對象教練然後所有的體育環境裡面的作為師長的都應該要有這樣的認識好嗎好這個拜託你們謝謝好謝謝黃婕委員的\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9\t1152\t謝謝\n6337\t34522\t好部長好今天時間很短但是這個兩週之前我們發生的高教裡面國際的學術醜聞這件事情我認為有必要追蹤下去因為其實我看到的時候真的非常非常的震驚就是台師大的抽血案這件事情雖然簡同學他要的很簡單他說他要的只是周老師跟台師大的一個道歉那他最後也獲得了這個道歉但是他獲得道歉之後還有很多真相還沒有釐清啊\n35635\t48669\t接下來釐清真相這件事情我相信是最重要的所以這個腳步我們絕對不能停下來那昨天我看到最新的消息是接下來會有三個學校裡面有14案正在清查是嗎是的那其實就像剛剛范議員講的我今天來這邊也是想問其實不只這14案啊\n53394\t73828\t你們說這個十四案是因為有收到學生的陳情有人檢舉所以你們介入處理但是其他相關的包括運科資源計畫底下的兩百多個案子包括這個周老師跟這個陳慶忠教授陳忠慶教授底下涉及血液樣本的二十九個案子其實都應該要清查才對啊都應該要清查才對啊為什麼有人檢舉才處理\n79822\t94397\t我想跟我們報告就是說我們現階段當然這個直接的這個事件的關係我們優先處理但是我們事實上也全面的希望能夠再有一個這個相關的一些一個檢核\n95618\t98982\t所以全面清查很重要我再講一次全面清查很重要為什麼呢因為剛剛也有提到有一些明明就很明顯涉及人體試驗法可是你們竟然沒有需要申請IRB這件事情何等嚴重\n113738\t127547\t那甚至從這個兩個週 兩週之前我們在問的這一些案子裡面 這個周老師涉及的案子裡面到現在這一些寫意的樣本 寫用在哪裡沒有人告訴我們耶甚至學生的名單都對不起來耶\n132646\t149762\t這些事情難道不嚴重嗎為什麼到現在都沒有一個人給社會一個交代我們做研究是可以這樣做的嗎這些事情不是都要按部就班的嗎甚至申請IRB或是REC這一些倫理工作都是做研究最基本最基本要做的事情\n150613\t179488\t是 謝謝委員我們在7月21號組成跨部會專案小組之後就分三個層面來清查第一個是全面的清查成州兩位老師那針對有特別總共幾案目前國科會跟相關部體育署回報給我們的大概有三十幾案涉及到從他任教以來民國九十年的案子那裡頭針對有特別同學或者是檢舉人特別有檢舉的\n180188\t196557\t只有14案嗎14案的部分我們是實地查訪可是剛剛有報告的全面清查的部分我們已經請各個學校相關的IRB要在8月8號之前把他們的清查結果報教育部所以這個部分是有同步在進行的\n197017\t220209\t好那這個拜託我剛剛講的第一個這些案子裡面到底血用在哪裡啊怎麼會到現在叫學生抽血然後這些血沒有用在應該要核實的這個計畫裡面這件事情拜託一定要優先處理好嗎另外就是IRB這個我特別把當時台師大的倫理委員倫理審查委員會裡面的會議記錄找出來因為我覺得太荒謬了\n225373\t234781\t一片空白會議記錄是一片空白然後呢這個主席然後所有出席的委員有沒有意見沒有意見全數通過我光是看到這個RB的審查過程我覺得不可思議可以長這樣嗎\n244286\t268666\t我不知道是真的流於形式還是像你們說的他們有隱匿的情況就算他們送假的資料都還是有很多預防的機會才對啊因為我必須要說其實這個研究案我有看到有另外一個子計畫裡面有納入一家其他一個大學的醫學中心然後這個醫學中心的IRB在審查本案的時候認為教授收案只屬學生\n269727\t295736\t不知道能不能確保學生的自主同意所以他們提出了質疑最後他們怎麼做他們把這個案子撤掉了也就是說有其他學校針對同一個研究案的IRB在審查過程他們有發現問題然後他們選擇撤案因為他們知道這個在IRB上很可能是不會過的結果台師大過了所以我覺得台師大IRB中心\n296736\t301501\t是不是應該出來面對出來檢討這件事情非常嚴重\n306834\t332236\t報告委員確實我們現在除了昨天有專案到台師大去做訪查之外我們也從7月1號開始停止台師大的一個新修理的新案我們要他齊具相關的檢討報告之後我們會再提我們教育部的IRB再好好的檢視一次這部分我們會遵守人體研究法的相關規定來檢視台師大的一個整個IRB的運作機制\n332796\t335777\t好 當然你們剛剛也說該開罰你們也開罰了該送刑事責任的你們也送了有一些造假的有一些違法的部分你們都已經在處理了但是我很怕這個是體育界裡面的陋習我最怕的是這件事情他們覺得不需要送但明明涉及很多未成年\n354324\t361573\t甚至是學生甚至他們長期以來在全市的文化裡面長期慣性的把學生當成試驗的對象\n364520\t386482\t這是我最擔心的所以不要讓IRB變成只是橡皮圖這樣更不能變成是形同虛設的一個單位它要實際進到實質審查的功能這個拜託這個是教育部現在最重要最重要的責任不要讓國際上覺得哇台灣在做研究我們的高校環境是如此的糟糕\n388124\t403080\t連這種基本的把關都做不到然後最後我本來要提一個臨時提案但是礙於時間我直接講就是我跟體育署也討論過了就是在單項協會裡面應該要有反霸凌教育這件事情因為我也很擔心說在\n404101\t411828\t體育界裡面長期有一些基本的這種對於權勢的不認知或者是他們對於霸凌文化的認識不夠深導致於說他們把這種壓迫的行為一代又一代的傳下去覺得說鐵血教育是對的覺得說我就是老師學生體育的學生對我就只有絕對的服從絕對不是這樣嘛\n426500\t446052\t所以這種文化一定要改善那也希望可以徹底的淘汰這種權勢的霸凌行為所以我也希望在這邊具體建議教育部體育署接下來所有該上這種反霸凌教育的對象教練然後所有的體育環境裡面的作為師長的都應該要有這樣的認識好嗎好 這個拜託你們 謝謝好 謝謝黃婕委員的\n","txt":"謝謝\n好部長好今天時間很短但是這個兩週之前我們發生的高教裡面國際的學術醜聞這件事情我認為有必要追蹤下去因為其實我看到的時候真的非常非常的震驚就是台師大的抽血案這件事情雖然簡同學他要的很簡單他說他要的只是周老師跟台師大的一個道歉那他最後也獲得了這個道歉但是他獲得道歉之後還有很多真相還沒有釐清啊\n接下來釐清真相這件事情我相信是最重要的所以這個腳步我們絕對不能停下來那昨天我看到最新的消息是接下來會有三個學校裡面有14案正在清查是嗎是的那其實就像剛剛范議員講的我今天來這邊也是想問其實不只這14案啊\n你們說這個十四案是因為有收到學生的陳情有人檢舉所以你們介入處理但是其他相關的包括運科資源計畫底下的兩百多個案子包括這個周老師跟這個陳慶忠教授陳忠慶教授底下涉及血液樣本的二十九個案子其實都應該要清查才對啊都應該要清查才對啊為什麼有人檢舉才處理\n我想跟我們報告就是說我們現階段當然這個直接的這個事件的關係我們優先處理但是我們事實上也全面的希望能夠再有一個這個相關的一些一個檢核\n所以全面清查很重要我再講一次全面清查很重要為什麼呢因為剛剛也有提到有一些明明就很明顯涉及人體試驗法可是你們竟然沒有需要申請IRB這件事情何等嚴重\n那甚至從這個兩個週 兩週之前我們在問的這一些案子裡面 這個周老師涉及的案子裡面到現在這一些寫意的樣本 寫用在哪裡沒有人告訴我們耶甚至學生的名單都對不起來耶\n這些事情難道不嚴重嗎為什麼到現在都沒有一個人給社會一個交代我們做研究是可以這樣做的嗎這些事情不是都要按部就班的嗎甚至申請IRB或是REC這一些倫理工作都是做研究最基本最基本要做的事情\n是 謝謝委員我們在7月21號組成跨部會專案小組之後就分三個層面來清查第一個是全面的清查成州兩位老師那針對有特別總共幾案目前國科會跟相關部體育署回報給我們的大概有三十幾案涉及到從他任教以來民國九十年的案子那裡頭針對有特別同學或者是檢舉人特別有檢舉的\n只有14案嗎14案的部分我們是實地查訪可是剛剛有報告的全面清查的部分我們已經請各個學校相關的IRB要在8月8號之前把他們的清查結果報教育部所以這個部分是有同步在進行的\n好那這個拜託我剛剛講的第一個這些案子裡面到底血用在哪裡啊怎麼會到現在叫學生抽血然後這些血沒有用在應該要核實的這個計畫裡面這件事情拜託一定要優先處理好嗎另外就是IRB這個我特別把當時台師大的倫理委員倫理審查委員會裡面的會議記錄找出來因為我覺得太荒謬了\n一片空白會議記錄是一片空白然後呢這個主席然後所有出席的委員有沒有意見沒有意見全數通過我光是看到這個RB的審查過程我覺得不可思議可以長這樣嗎\n我不知道是真的流於形式還是像你們說的他們有隱匿的情況就算他們送假的資料都還是有很多預防的機會才對啊因為我必須要說其實這個研究案我有看到有另外一個子計畫裡面有納入一家其他一個大學的醫學中心然後這個醫學中心的IRB在審查本案的時候認為教授收案只屬學生\n不知道能不能確保學生的自主同意所以他們提出了質疑最後他們怎麼做他們把這個案子撤掉了也就是說有其他學校針對同一個研究案的IRB在審查過程他們有發現問題然後他們選擇撤案因為他們知道這個在IRB上很可能是不會過的結果台師大過了所以我覺得台師大IRB中心\n是不是應該出來面對出來檢討這件事情非常嚴重\n報告委員確實我們現在除了昨天有專案到台師大去做訪查之外我們也從7月1號開始停止台師大的一個新修理的新案我們要他齊具相關的檢討報告之後我們會再提我們教育部的IRB再好好的檢視一次這部分我們會遵守人體研究法的相關規定來檢視台師大的一個整個IRB的運作機制\n好 當然你們剛剛也說該開罰你們也開罰了該送刑事責任的你們也送了有一些造假的有一些違法的部分你們都已經在處理了但是我很怕這個是體育界裡面的陋習我最怕的是這件事情他們覺得不需要送但明明涉及很多未成年\n甚至是學生甚至他們長期以來在全市的文化裡面長期慣性的把學生當成試驗的對象\n這是我最擔心的所以不要讓IRB變成只是橡皮圖這樣更不能變成是形同虛設的一個單位它要實際進到實質審查的功能這個拜託這個是教育部現在最重要最重要的責任不要讓國際上覺得哇台灣在做研究我們的高校環境是如此的糟糕\n連這種基本的把關都做不到然後最後我本來要提一個臨時提案但是礙於時間我直接講就是我跟體育署也討論過了就是在單項協會裡面應該要有反霸凌教育這件事情因為我也很擔心說在\n體育界裡面長期有一些基本的這種對於權勢的不認知或者是他們對於霸凌文化的認識不夠深導致於說他們把這種壓迫的行為一代又一代的傳下去覺得說鐵血教育是對的覺得說我就是老師學生體育的學生對我就只有絕對的服從絕對不是這樣嘛\n所以這種文化一定要改善那也希望可以徹底的淘汰這種權勢的霸凌行為所以我也希望在這邊具體建議教育部體育署接下來所有該上這種反霸凌教育的對象教練然後所有的體育環境裡面的作為師長的都應該要有這樣的認識好嗎好 這個拜託你們 謝謝好 謝謝黃婕委員的\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.337 --> 00:34.522\n好部長好今天時間很短但是這個兩週之前我們發生的高教裡面國際的學術醜聞這件事情我認為有必要追蹤下去因為其實我看到的時候真的非常非常的震驚就是台師大的抽血案這件事情雖然簡同學他要的很簡單他說他要的只是周老師跟台師大的一個道歉那他最後也獲得了這個道歉但是他獲得道歉之後還有很多真相還沒有釐清啊\n\n00:35.635 --> 00:48.669\n接下來釐清真相這件事情我相信是最重要的所以這個腳步我們絕對不能停下來那昨天我看到最新的消息是接下來會有三個學校裡面有14案正在清查是嗎是的那其實就像剛剛范議員講的我今天來這邊也是想問其實不只這14案啊\n\n00:53.394 --> 01:13.828\n你們說這個十四案是因為有收到學生的陳情有人檢舉所以你們介入處理但是其他相關的包括運科資源計畫底下的兩百多個案子包括這個周老師跟這個陳慶忠教授陳忠慶教授底下涉及血液樣本的二十九個案子其實都應該要清查才對啊都應該要清查才對啊為什麼有人檢舉才處理\n\n01:19.822 --> 01:34.397\n我想跟我們報告就是說我們現階段當然這個直接的這個事件的關係我們優先處理但是我們事實上也全面的希望能夠再有一個這個相關的一些一個檢核\n\n01:35.618 --> 01:38.982\n所以全面清查很重要我再講一次全面清查很重要為什麼呢因為剛剛也有提到有一些明明就很明顯涉及人體試驗法可是你們竟然沒有需要申請IRB這件事情何等嚴重\n\n01:53.738 --> 02:07.547\n那甚至從這個兩個週兩週之前我們在問的這一些案子裡面這個周老師涉及的案子裡面到現在這一些寫意的樣本寫用在哪裡沒有人告訴我們耶甚至學生的名單都對不起來耶\n\n02:12.646 --> 02:29.762\n這些事情難道不嚴重嗎為什麼到現在都沒有一個人給社會一個交代我們做研究是可以這樣做的嗎這些事情不是都要按部就班的嗎甚至申請IRB或是REC這一些倫理工作都是做研究最基本最基本要做的事情\n\n02:30.613 --> 02:59.488\n是謝謝委員我們在7月21號組成跨部會專案小組之後就分三個層面來清查第一個是全面的清查成州兩位老師那針對有特別總共幾案目前國科會跟相關部體育署回報給我們的大概有三十幾案涉及到從他任教以來民國九十年的案子那裡頭針對有特別同學或者是檢舉人特別有檢舉的\n\n03:00.188 --> 03:16.557\n只有14案嗎14案的部分我們是實地查訪可是剛剛有報告的全面清查的部分我們已經請各個學校相關的IRB要在8月8號之前把他們的清查結果報教育部所以這個部分是有同步在進行的\n\n03:17.017 --> 03:40.209\n好那這個拜託我剛剛講的第一個這些案子裡面到底血用在哪裡啊怎麼會到現在叫學生抽血然後這些血沒有用在應該要核實的這個計畫裡面這件事情拜託一定要優先處理好嗎另外就是IRB這個我特別把當時台師大的倫理委員倫理審查委員會裡面的會議記錄找出來因為我覺得太荒謬了\n\n03:45.373 --> 03:54.781\n一片空白會議記錄是一片空白然後呢這個主席然後所有出席的委員有沒有意見沒有意見全數通過我光是看到這個RB的審查過程我覺得不可思議可以長這樣嗎\n\n04:04.286 --> 04:28.666\n我不知道是真的流於形式還是像你們說的他們有隱匿的情況就算他們送假的資料都還是有很多預防的機會才對啊因為我必須要說其實這個研究案我有看到有另外一個子計畫裡面有納入一家其他一個大學的醫學中心然後這個醫學中心的IRB在審查本案的時候認為教授收案只屬學生\n\n04:29.727 --> 04:55.736\n不知道能不能確保學生的自主同意所以他們提出了質疑最後他們怎麼做他們把這個案子撤掉了也就是說有其他學校針對同一個研究案的IRB在審查過程他們有發現問題然後他們選擇撤案因為他們知道這個在IRB上很可能是不會過的結果台師大過了所以我覺得台師大IRB中心\n\n04:56.736 --> 05:01.501\n是不是應該出來面對出來檢討這件事情非常嚴重\n\n05:06.834 --> 05:32.236\n報告委員確實我們現在除了昨天有專案到台師大去做訪查之外我們也從7月1號開始停止台師大的一個新修理的新案我們要他齊具相關的檢討報告之後我們會再提我們教育部的IRB再好好的檢視一次這部分我們會遵守人體研究法的相關規定來檢視台師大的一個整個IRB的運作機制\n\n05:32.796 --> 05:35.777\n好當然你們剛剛也說該開罰你們也開罰了該送刑事責任的你們也送了有一些造假的有一些違法的部分你們都已經在處理了但是我很怕這個是體育界裡面的陋習我最怕的是這件事情他們覺得不需要送但明明涉及很多未成年\n\n05:54.324 --> 06:01.573\n甚至是學生甚至他們長期以來在全市的文化裡面長期慣性的把學生當成試驗的對象\n\n06:04.520 --> 06:26.482\n這是我最擔心的所以不要讓IRB變成只是橡皮圖這樣更不能變成是形同虛設的一個單位它要實際進到實質審查的功能這個拜託這個是教育部現在最重要最重要的責任不要讓國際上覺得哇台灣在做研究我們的高校環境是如此的糟糕\n\n06:28.124 --> 06:43.080\n連這種基本的把關都做不到然後最後我本來要提一個臨時提案但是礙於時間我直接講就是我跟體育署也討論過了就是在單項協會裡面應該要有反霸凌教育這件事情因為我也很擔心說在\n\n06:44.101 --> 06:51.828\n體育界裡面長期有一些基本的這種對於權勢的不認知或者是他們對於霸凌文化的認識不夠深導致於說他們把這種壓迫的行為一代又一代的傳下去覺得說鐵血教育是對的覺得說我就是老師學生體育的學生對我就只有絕對的服從絕對不是這樣嘛\n\n07:06.500 --> 07:26.052\n所以這種文化一定要改善那也希望可以徹底的淘汰這種權勢的霸凌行為所以我也希望在這邊具體建議教育部體育署接下來所有該上這種反霸凌教育的對象教練然後所有的體育環境裡面的作為師長的都應該要有這樣的認識好嗎好這個拜託你們謝謝好謝謝黃婕委員的\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.009,"end":1.152,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":6.337,"end":34.522,"text":"好部長好今天時間很短但是這個兩週之前我們發生的高教裡面國際的學術醜聞這件事情我認為有必要追蹤下去因為其實我看到的時候真的非常非常的震驚就是台師大的抽血案這件事情雖然簡同學他要的很簡單他說他要的只是周老師跟台師大的一個道歉那他最後也獲得了這個道歉但是他獲得道歉之後還有很多真相還沒有釐清啊"},{"start":35.635,"end":48.669,"text":"接下來釐清真相這件事情我相信是最重要的所以這個腳步我們絕對不能停下來那昨天我看到最新的消息是接下來會有三個學校裡面有14案正在清查是嗎是的那其實就像剛剛范議員講的我今天來這邊也是想問其實不只這14案啊"},{"start":53.394,"end":73.828,"text":"你們說這個十四案是因為有收到學生的陳情有人檢舉所以你們介入處理但是其他相關的包括運科資源計畫底下的兩百多個案子包括這個周老師跟這個陳慶忠教授陳忠慶教授底下涉及血液樣本的二十九個案子其實都應該要清查才對啊都應該要清查才對啊為什麼有人檢舉才處理"},{"start":79.822,"end":94.397,"text":"我想跟我們報告就是說我們現階段當然這個直接的這個事件的關係我們優先處理但是我們事實上也全面的希望能夠再有一個這個相關的一些一個檢核"},{"start":95.618,"end":98.982,"text":"所以全面清查很重要我再講一次全面清查很重要為什麼呢因為剛剛也有提到有一些明明就很明顯涉及人體試驗法可是你們竟然沒有需要申請IRB這件事情何等嚴重"},{"start":113.738,"end":127.547,"text":"那甚至從這個兩個週 兩週之前我們在問的這一些案子裡面 這個周老師涉及的案子裡面到現在這一些寫意的樣本 寫用在哪裡沒有人告訴我們耶甚至學生的名單都對不起來耶"},{"start":132.646,"end":149.762,"text":"這些事情難道不嚴重嗎為什麼到現在都沒有一個人給社會一個交代我們做研究是可以這樣做的嗎這些事情不是都要按部就班的嗎甚至申請IRB或是REC這一些倫理工作都是做研究最基本最基本要做的事情"},{"start":150.613,"end":179.488,"text":"是 謝謝委員我們在7月21號組成跨部會專案小組之後就分三個層面來清查第一個是全面的清查成州兩位老師那針對有特別總共幾案目前國科會跟相關部體育署回報給我們的大概有三十幾案涉及到從他任教以來民國九十年的案子那裡頭針對有特別同學或者是檢舉人特別有檢舉的"},{"start":180.188,"end":196.557,"text":"只有14案嗎14案的部分我們是實地查訪可是剛剛有報告的全面清查的部分我們已經請各個學校相關的IRB要在8月8號之前把他們的清查結果報教育部所以這個部分是有同步在進行的"},{"start":197.017,"end":220.209,"text":"好那這個拜託我剛剛講的第一個這些案子裡面到底血用在哪裡啊怎麼會到現在叫學生抽血然後這些血沒有用在應該要核實的這個計畫裡面這件事情拜託一定要優先處理好嗎另外就是IRB這個我特別把當時台師大的倫理委員倫理審查委員會裡面的會議記錄找出來因為我覺得太荒謬了"},{"start":225.373,"end":234.781,"text":"一片空白會議記錄是一片空白然後呢這個主席然後所有出席的委員有沒有意見沒有意見全數通過我光是看到這個RB的審查過程我覺得不可思議可以長這樣嗎"},{"start":244.286,"end":268.666,"text":"我不知道是真的流於形式還是像你們說的他們有隱匿的情況就算他們送假的資料都還是有很多預防的機會才對啊因為我必須要說其實這個研究案我有看到有另外一個子計畫裡面有納入一家其他一個大學的醫學中心然後這個醫學中心的IRB在審查本案的時候認為教授收案只屬學生"},{"start":269.727,"end":295.736,"text":"不知道能不能確保學生的自主同意所以他們提出了質疑最後他們怎麼做他們把這個案子撤掉了也就是說有其他學校針對同一個研究案的IRB在審查過程他們有發現問題然後他們選擇撤案因為他們知道這個在IRB上很可能是不會過的結果台師大過了所以我覺得台師大IRB中心"},{"start":296.736,"end":301.501,"text":"是不是應該出來面對出來檢討這件事情非常嚴重"},{"start":306.834,"end":332.236,"text":"報告委員確實我們現在除了昨天有專案到台師大去做訪查之外我們也從7月1號開始停止台師大的一個新修理的新案我們要他齊具相關的檢討報告之後我們會再提我們教育部的IRB再好好的檢視一次這部分我們會遵守人體研究法的相關規定來檢視台師大的一個整個IRB的運作機制"},{"start":332.796,"end":335.777,"text":"好 當然你們剛剛也說該開罰你們也開罰了該送刑事責任的你們也送了有一些造假的有一些違法的部分你們都已經在處理了但是我很怕這個是體育界裡面的陋習我最怕的是這件事情他們覺得不需要送但明明涉及很多未成年"},{"start":354.324,"end":361.573,"text":"甚至是學生甚至他們長期以來在全市的文化裡面長期慣性的把學生當成試驗的對象"},{"start":364.52,"end":386.482,"text":"這是我最擔心的所以不要讓IRB變成只是橡皮圖這樣更不能變成是形同虛設的一個單位它要實際進到實質審查的功能這個拜託這個是教育部現在最重要最重要的責任不要讓國際上覺得哇台灣在做研究我們的高校環境是如此的糟糕"},{"start":388.124,"end":403.08,"text":"連這種基本的把關都做不到然後最後我本來要提一個臨時提案但是礙於時間我直接講就是我跟體育署也討論過了就是在單項協會裡面應該要有反霸凌教育這件事情因為我也很擔心說在"},{"start":404.101,"end":411.828,"text":"體育界裡面長期有一些基本的這種對於權勢的不認知或者是他們對於霸凌文化的認識不夠深導致於說他們把這種壓迫的行為一代又一代的傳下去覺得說鐵血教育是對的覺得說我就是老師學生體育的學生對我就只有絕對的服從絕對不是這樣嘛"},{"start":426.5,"end":446.052,"text":"所以這種文化一定要改善那也希望可以徹底的淘汰這種權勢的霸凌行為所以我也希望在這邊具體建議教育部體育署接下來所有該上這種反霸凌教育的對象教練然後所有的體育環境裡面的作為師長的都應該要有這樣的認識好嗎好 這個拜託你們 謝謝好 謝謝黃婕委員的"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":820,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（12時33分）好，謝謝主席。請部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長備質詢，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：部長好。今天時間很短，但是2週之前，我們發生高教裡面國際的學術醜聞，這件事情我認為有必要追蹤下去，因為我看到的時候真的非常、非常的震驚，就是臺師大的抽血案這件事情，雖然簡同學要得很簡單，他說他要的只是周老師跟臺師大的一個道歉，他最後也獲得了這個道歉，但是他獲得道歉之後，還有很多真相還沒有釐清啊！接下來釐清真相這件事情，我相信是最重要的，所以這個腳步我們絕對不能停下來。昨天我看到最新的消息是接下來會有3個學校裡有14案正在清查，是嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是的。"],["黃委員捷：其實就像剛剛范委員講的，我今天來這邊，也是想問，不只這14案，你們說這個14案是因為有收到學生的陳情、有人檢舉，所以你們介入處理，但是其他相關的包括運科支援計畫底下的兩百多個案子，包括周台英老師跟陳忠慶教授底下涉及血液樣本的29個案子，其實都應該要清查才對啊！為什麼有人檢舉才處理？"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有。跟委員報告，現階段這個事件的直接關係人，我們當然優先處理，但是我們事實上也全面的希望能夠再有相關的一些檢核。"],["黃委員捷：所以全面清查很重要！"],["鄭部長英耀：目前包含運科中心，全面停止他們的研究。"],["黃委員捷：我再講一次，全面清查很重要！為什麼？因為剛剛也有提到有一些明明很明顯涉及人體試驗法，但是竟然不需要申請IRB！這件事情何等嚴重，我們兩週之前問的這一些周老師涉及的案子裡面，到現在血液的樣本用在哪裡？沒有人告訴我們！甚至學生的名單都對不起來，這件事情難道不嚴重嗎？為什麼到現在都沒有人給社會一個交代，研究是可以這樣做的嗎？這件事情不是都要按部就班的嗎？申請IRB或是REC這一些倫理工作，都是做研究最基本的事情。"],["廖司長高賢：我們在7月21日組成跨部會專案小組之後，就分三個層面來清查，第一個是全面清查陳、周兩位老師針對有特別……"],["黃委員捷：總共幾案？"],["廖司長高賢：目前國科會跟體育署回報給我們的大概有三十幾案，從他任教以來，民國90年的案子。其中針對特別同學或者是檢舉人，特別有檢舉的時段……"],["黃委員捷：只有14案嘛！"],["廖司長高賢：14案的部分是實地查訪，另外剛剛報告的全面清查部分，我們已經請各個學校相關的IRB要在8月8日之前把清查結果報教育部，這個部分是同步在進行的。"],["黃委員捷：我剛剛講的第一個，這些案子裡面，血到底用在哪裡？怎麼會叫學生抽血，而這些血沒有用在應該要覈實的計畫裡面？拜託這件事情一定要優先處理好嗎？另外關於IRB，我特別把當時臺師大倫理審查委員會的會議紀錄找出來，因為我覺得太荒謬了，一片空白，會議紀錄是一片空白，然後主席和所有出席的委員有沒有意見？沒有意見，全數通過。光是看這個IRB的審查過程，我覺得不可思議！可以長這樣嗎？我不知道是真的流於形式，還是像你們說的他們有隱匿的情況，就算送假的資料，還是有很多預防的機會才對！其實這個研究案我看到另外一個子計畫裡面，有納入一家其他大學的醫學中心，這個醫學中心的IRB在審查本案的時候，認為教授收案直屬學生，不知道能不能確保學生的自主同意，所以提出了質疑，最後怎麼做？他們把這個案子撤掉了，也就是有其他學校針對同一個研究案的IRB，在審查過程有發現問題而選擇撤案，因為他們知道這個在IRB上很可能是不會過的，結果臺師大過了。臺師大IRB中心是不是應該出來面對、出來檢討？這件事情非常嚴重。"],["廖司長高賢：報告委員，我們除了昨天專案到臺師大訪查外，也從7月1日開始停止臺師大受理新案，我們要他提具相關的檢討報告之後，提教育部的IRB好好地再檢視一次，這個部分我們會遵守人體研究法的相關規定，來檢視臺師大整個IRB的運作機制。"],["黃委員捷：你們剛剛說該開罰也開罰了；該送刑事責任的，你們也送了；有一些造假的、違法的部分，你們都已經在處理了。但是我很怕這個是體育界裡面的陋習，我最怕的是這件事情，他們覺得不需要送，但明明涉及很多未成年，甚至是學生。他們長期以來在權勢的文化裡面，長期、慣性地把學生當成試驗的對象，這是我最擔心的。所以不要讓IRB變成只是橡皮圖章，更不能變成是形同虛設的一個單位，要實際盡到實質審查的功能，這個是教育部現在最重要、最重要的責任。不要讓國際上覺得臺灣在做研究的高教環境是如此地糟糕，連這種基本的把關都做不到。","最後我本來要提一個臨時提案，但是礙於時間的關係，我直接講，這部分我跟體育署也討論過了，在單項協會裡面應該要有反霸凌教育，因為我也很擔心在體育界裡，長期有一些基本對於權勢的不認知，或者是對於霸凌文化的認識不夠深，導致把這種壓迫的行為一代又一代的傳下去，覺得鐵血教育是對的，覺得我就是老師，體育的學生對我就只有絕對的服從。絕對不是這樣嘛！這種文化一定要改善，也希望可以澈底地淘汰這種權勢的霸凌行為，所以我在這邊具體建議教育部、體育署，接下來所有該上反霸凌教育的對象，教練和所有體育環境裡面做為師長的，都應該要有這樣的認識，好嗎？這個部分拜託你們，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員的質詢，官員請回座。","接下來有請羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-18","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","劉書彬","萬美玲","陳秀寳","張雅琳","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","范雲","李坤城","黃捷","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","陳培瑜","葉元之","黃國昌","高金素梅","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":3,"meetingDate":["2025-08-07"],"gazette_id":"1147202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長列席就「全國中小學教師人力不足現況與具體因應對策」進行專題報告並備\n質詢；二、邀請教育部部長、國家科學及技術委員會、衛生福利部列席就「如何強化研究計畫之\n人體研究倫理把關機制，以保障人權，捍衛科研價值，並避免類似台師大女足抽血違反研究倫理\n之案件再次發生」進行專題報告，並備質詢；三、邀請教育部部長、行政院人事行政總處及行政\n院主計總處列席就「9月9日運動部成立籌備情形與後續推動規劃」進行專題報告並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147202_00002"}}}