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618.728, \"score\": 0.694}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 618.728, \"end\": 619.028, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 619.028, \"end\": 619.168, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 619.168, \"end\": 619.409, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 619.409, \"end\": 619.769, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 619.769, \"end\": 620.249, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 620.249, \"end\": 620.789, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 620.789, \"end\": 620.97, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 620.97, \"end\": 623.471, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 623.471, \"end\": 623.912, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 623.912, \"end\": 624.192, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 624.192, \"end\": 624.492, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"抽\", \"start\": 624.492, \"end\": 624.752, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 624.752, \"end\": 625.012, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 625.012, \"end\": 625.513, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 625.513, \"end\": 625.713, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 625.713, \"end\": 625.813, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"灣\"}, {\"word\": \"師\"}, {\"word\": \"範\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 625.813, \"end\": 625.833, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 625.833, \"end\": 625.853, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 628.135, \"end\": 638.005, \"text\": \"當時抽查的狀況怎麼樣如果當時有用心抽查我們很有可能提前發現這個案件的問題請教一下110年抽查的情況如何\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"抽\", \"start\": 628.135, \"end\": 628.355, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 628.355, \"end\": 628.555, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 628.555, \"end\": 629.096, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 629.096, \"end\": 630.017, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 630.017, \"end\": 630.177, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 630.177, \"end\": 630.717, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 630.717, \"end\": 630.878, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 630.878, \"end\": 631.078, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 631.078, \"end\": 631.298, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"抽\", \"start\": 631.298, \"end\": 631.558, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 631.558, \"end\": 632.059, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 632.059, \"end\": 632.279, \"score\": 0.707}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 632.279, \"end\": 632.439, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 632.439, \"end\": 632.64, \"score\": 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\"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"抽\", \"start\": 637.144, \"end\": 637.305, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 637.305, \"end\": 637.445, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 637.445, \"end\": 637.545, \"score\": 0.736}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 637.545, \"end\": 637.865, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 637.865, \"end\": 637.985, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"何\", \"start\": 637.985, \"end\": 638.005, \"score\": 0.859}]}, {\"start\": 639.386, \"end\": 667.123, \"text\": \"為什麼會讓這個案子還留下來報告委員我們抽查的項目主要是針對他們整體的學校的IRB的運作機制跟相關的一些那個執行的狀況那針對個案的異常的狀況有些時候真的必須要到就是說實地抽查才會來我幫您整理啦就是有抽查但這個案子沒有抽查到啦那我想這還是要檢討一下那變成這個抽查變成圖據形式嘛\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 639.386, \"end\": 640.006, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 640.006, \"end\": 640.207, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 640.207, 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950.257, \"text\": \"我們有發現其實檢疫型的審查是主要的那我們去檢查了以後發現IRB的組成人的這個樣態五花八門這個IRB的組成成員有法師有里長有常見的行政人員那如果普通的檢疫案件直接就通過了\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 929.864, \"end\": 930.084, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 930.084, \"end\": 931.025, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 931.025, \"end\": 931.565, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"疫\", \"start\": 931.565, \"end\": 931.825, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"型\", \"start\": 931.825, \"end\": 932.065, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 932.065, \"end\": 932.506, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 932.506, \"end\": 932.766, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 932.766, \"end\": 933.066, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 933.066, \"end\": 933.266, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 933.266, \"end\": 933.506, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"的\", 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\"start\": 1062.555, \"end\": 1062.615, \"score\": 0.59}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 1062.615, \"end\": 1062.775, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"座\", \"start\": 1062.775, \"end\": 1062.795, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:12,469 --> 00:00:16,017\n好謝謝代理主席有請教育部鄭英耀部長請部長\n\n2\n00:00:24,195 --> 00:00:46,140\n委員好部長早上週我們在議程安排的時候就有風聲聽到說今天可能是部長的重要考試萬一考不過有沒有可能就被左內閣放進二一名單想請教一下部長這個說法是不是屬實我們有沒有機會繼續再看到您想不想再繼續來跟我們一起協作\n\n3\n00:00:47,340 --> 00:01:12,213\n謝謝委員關心我的去留不過我想這個假設性的問題基本上我其實不方便回答但是就政務官來講我個人認為政務官的進退要優雅要雍容這是我一直一路走來的堅持那說不定委員我也不曉得委員會不會想希望我留下來\n\n4\n00:01:14,551 --> 00:01:33,444\n我想這個如果不只是優雅從容啊還要能夠努力的捍衛學生權益的話當然是希望您留下來這個是無庸置疑也不要只是把時間花在政治的議題啊也不要把時間花在只是在勾選哪一間學校要停止交流如果是這樣的話我們當然希望您留下來但我想不管你是不是留下來\n\n5\n00:01:38,227 --> 00:01:54,805\n優雅從容之餘也應該努力到最後一天來捍衛學生的權益也要檢討我們在過去有沒有哪些事情還需要能夠來加強的那我們首先要來請教一下部長這個無限期休假的事件除了您本身的去留其實近期教育界有另外一個議論紛紛的是\n\n6\n00:01:56,286 --> 00:02:22,238\n其实就是我们的叶秉成次长迄今请假天数已经达到72天社群平台还有网友在计算做了一个计时器就是他请假的天数原本我们教育部有三位次长分工非常的明确但是我们稍微计算了一下其实在叶次长请假的期间当中有32天教育部居然只剩下一位次长\n\n7\n00:02:22,938 --> 00:02:37,165\n在處理所有的公務啊也就是您在這個圖上面看到的這個這個公務啊在葉市長請假朱市長還沒到位之前有32天的時間只有一位市長處理所有的事部長您知道嗎\n\n8\n00:02:39,039 --> 00:02:53,699\n我當然知道那所以請問部長嘛您認為長期32天算很長啦少一個次長的情況下有沒有影響到會不會影響到相關政策的推行我想我非常感謝我們教育部的一個團隊\n\n9\n00:02:55,041 --> 00:03:11,952\n當然在人事異動還有許多接任的時間它當然有一些時間差那這一個期間我們教育部的會不會影響?有沒有影響?我想我們基本上都希望它在所有的政務跟政策的推動它都能夠順暢的在推動中所以過去的這32天對於事務上有沒有影響?\n\n10\n00:03:19,208 --> 00:03:37,142\n會不會影響一位次長我真的還是要肯定啦張廖次長這一個人扛起來三十二天那當然葉次長請假有他的原因跟理由三十二天有沒有去影響到政策的推行會不會影響基本上我們保持讓他可能的影響降到最低\n\n11\n00:03:38,062 --> 00:03:56,077\n我想這個部長真的是如果您希望次長趕快消價上班您就要明確的表達那如果您覺得說影響可以降到最低那我們是不是一位次長一位長賜就好啦可以減少納稅人的錢不用必要的支出\n\n12\n00:03:56,798 --> 00:04:25,266\n否則我想這樣子的一個分工的狀態現在兩位次長我又要替朱次長來抱不平了那甚至萬一這個之後我們的運動部成立了我們次長說不定這個有一些人事的異動調整會不會又出現了一位次長扛下所有的任務我想這個接下來的這些狀況想請教一下次長未來有可能面臨的這個情況你有沒有預先規劃之前可能是意外之後有沒有預先規劃\n\n13\n00:04:26,667 --> 00:04:47,772\n跟委員報告因為現在在業次長被這個指控這個洩漏違反了這個性平的這個個資那性平的調查小組專案調查小組我們當然希望他趕快把結果調查出來但是因為性平小組他認為必須要還有很多的求證\n\n14\n00:04:48,592 --> 00:05:14,761\n是部長我打斷您因為我們已經算過了啦他請假第一輪可以是這個不是請假就是這個事件的調查可以兩個月再加一加一啦所以可能四個月之後如果有申訴假設有申訴的話又再二加一加一啦所以一共可能有八個月啊那我們張耀次長萬一真的高升去當部長了那接下來我們很可能會有人事的異動我是要問您有沒有對這個未來的可能性做準備嘛\n\n15\n00:05:15,501 --> 00:05:28,888\n我們當然會對人事可能的一個異動我們當然會有一些內部的一些討論好所以我想不要讓這個單一的次長的工作太繁重可能也會讓底下的部署感到困擾那我們想接下來還是要來請教一個比較專業的議題\n\n16\n00:05:31,869 --> 00:05:46,617\n就是這個AI課程的聯盟TICA那113年第二學期的參與學校從25所增加到55所對此本席要予以肯定但是近來我們有掌握到一些資訊就是說現在開放5300個名額實際修課的人合計2465人修課但是能夠修完課程並取得學分的人各課程介於190人到368人之間事實上只有4到6成\n\n17\n00:06:00,685 --> 00:06:04,437\n請問部長教育部有沒有好好去了解學生沒有完成課程的原因\n\n18\n00:06:05,506 --> 00:06:31,157\n我想這個首先就這個來講我要非常感謝我們葉次長當時在AI內閣裡面他快速的整合清大台大成大為主的這些大學的這個AI的教授很快速的透過網路上的我想謝謝部長這個我們都知道我是要問您啊現在已經有問題發生了我也很感謝葉次長在這個企劃上跟委員報告人員不能讓我多說一點\n\n19\n00:06:35,319 --> 00:06:38,363\n說一些新聞上沒有講過您沒有講過的我說新聞上沒講過的簡單來講我們當時這一個五門課快速的在去年九月開了五門課有將近兩千五百人休課那當然第一\n\n20\n00:06:51,101 --> 00:07:15,333\n第一學期的時候許多的課在網路上包括學生的休課等等的確實有一些學生並沒有通過通過率才只有1322位大概就56到57%不好意思部長我真的要打斷您您在浪費我的時間啊我現在要講的是第二學期的事你現在還在跟我回顧第一學期第二學期的\n\n21\n00:07:16,073 --> 00:07:43,482\n所謂的既有的25所學校裡面高達48%將近一半選客人數呈現衰退你們到底有沒有掌握更委員報告甚至我要繼續講我甚至要講台師大為例六門課程裡面有五門的修課人數是零然後最後通過的人全部是掛蛋的兩間學校全部是零人你現在在跟我講什麼第一學期沒有\n\n22\n00:07:44,262 --> 00:08:03,413\n我要問的是學生為什麼越來越選越少我們在進步中第二學期開始我們就收了有四千幾乎快double的學生休克四千四百位然後通過有三千三百位現在我數字都整理給你了\n\n23\n00:08:04,173 --> 00:08:15,997\n就開始在下降開始在下降有沒有去了解原因是不是太難還是什麼原因為什麼有這麼多既有的學校都是下降的\n\n24\n00:08:19,878 --> 00:08:25,739\n但是也有可能的原因像台師大的AI的老師他們也慢慢在豐富所以他們可能就自己開課我們本來這個網路上希望能夠用整合這個大學好的一個資源能夠去彌補許多學校可能沒有AI的專任老師那如果學校已經有的他當然學生就近實體的上課方便所以部長我想我很肯定葉次長當時提出這個計畫\n\n25\n00:08:48,965 --> 00:09:16,586\n那現在持續的擴增他現在請假我們也先理解他但是呢現在這個計畫又面臨到新的挑戰休克人數在下降既有的25所學校裡面還有人掛蛋的台師大是零人完課您知道嗎那您的理由是說台師大已經有自己的AI課程了那我們要抬卡做什麼呢是不是開始造成學校額外的重複行政的困擾他是不是有補助有沒有補助補助完了零人休克這樣可以嗎\n\n26\n00:09:19,793 --> 00:09:33,076\n我們就希望台城新郊的能量老師的能量能夠與陸新山全國的所有的大學生研究生他們能夠也能夠受惠新學期8月要展開啦那也希望部長趕快不管您是優雅從容還是怎麼樣努力到最後我們還是希望台卡的課程要持續優化好不好\n\n27\n00:09:42,958 --> 00:09:57,995\n那接下來啦我想我們還是要來關注一下令人震驚跟心痛的這個台師大女卒抽血案的事件那來請教部長和國客會的書副主委和衛福部的劉師長請代理主席讓書副主委跟劉師長就備巡台\n\n28\n00:09:59,495 --> 00:10:25,853\n請相關部會首長那我借用一點時間那首先呢剛剛柯志恩委員在質詢的時候有提到抽查的狀況結果我們教育部其實並沒有仔細的講啊我們這裡取得的這個教育部的IRB的這個所謂的查核的狀況我們這個案子啊其實是3到7年的時間111年就有抽查到國立台灣師範大學\n\n29\n00:10:28,135 --> 00:10:38,005\n當時抽查的狀況怎麼樣如果當時有用心抽查我們很有可能提前發現這個案件的問題請教一下110年抽查的情況如何\n\n30\n00:10:39,386 --> 00:11:07,123\n為什麼會讓這個案子還留下來報告委員我們抽查的項目主要是針對他們整體的學校的IRB的運作機制跟相關的一些那個執行的狀況那針對個案的異常的狀況有些時候真的必須要到就是說實地抽查才會來我幫您整理啦就是有抽查但這個案子沒有抽查到啦那我想這還是要檢討一下那變成這個抽查變成圖據形式嘛\n\n31\n00:11:07,563 --> 00:11:27,807\n那而且這個抽查學校變成不定期查核學校那接下來有沒有這個查核的頻率、頻次、內容、深度是不是要做調整我想這個可能要檢討那另外請教一下兩位教育部與國科會對於這個案件知曉的時間點請教一下副主委跟部長知曉的時間點是什麼這個案子這個案子我們是去年113年11月28\n\n32\n00:11:35,385 --> 00:11:52,667\n我想部長這邊我想11月28號陳培於委員揭發此事報導得知那我念一下這個媒體學生的這個刊出的這個說法啦我想這個細節我真的看了非常難過我就不多念了\n\n33\n00:11:53,388 --> 00:12:02,380\n但我想在這樣的一個文字內容下我們完全都可以理解那它還有這個抽血暈眩的狀況我自己抽血也是會暈眩我非常理解這個非常恐怖也非常可怕那個無助的一個狀態而且甚至是可能會產生危險\n\n34\n00:12:11,852 --> 00:12:28,273\n請問在這種情況下所謂的研究受試者同時也是私生關係的學生他能夠向誰來求助他到底能用什麼樣的救濟管道來救濟我想請教部長啊他這個受到這樣的一個困難他想要尋求救濟他可以找誰\n\n35\n00:12:29,494 --> 00:12:38,557\n我想這個完全是在這個抽血的過程裡邊我們的醫護人員的一個訓練必須要再加強部長我講的是結構性的醫護人員可能是外部請來的我可以直接告訴您答案啦我們詢問學生要找什麼救濟管道教育部給我們的答覆是說這個學生可以聯繫研究計畫的主持人\n\n36\n00:12:56,226 --> 00:13:21,097\n您覺得這樣可以解決問題嗎我想就學生可以當下就這個表達堅定的立場他是不是改天再抽或者等他舒服的等於說延一段時間再抽在當天來講因為以他當時在抽的時候他事實上人是非常不舒服的這個情況下我想他是可以在整個研究計畫裡邊部長我想您可能還是沒有了解到整件事情的嚴重性\n\n37\n00:13:22,217 --> 00:13:35,465\n這些學生到底是不是真的知情同意是不是有可能在校園裡面權利關係不對等的情況之下不是說我今天不想抽可不可以明天抽就沒事了\n\n38\n00:13:36,892 --> 00:13:58,505\n他有可能一直都不想抽啊所以我想要問的我想要講的就是計劃主持人絕對可能不是一個合適的救助管道所以本席認為啊此案之所以今年累月的累積到最後要求助我們的立法委員來處理就是沒有一個隱密的獨立的通暢的救濟管道\n\n39\n00:13:59,065 --> 00:14:20,166\n沒有一個單一的申訴窗口所以本席在這裡要具體要求教育部必須要針對主管的IRB審查的人體研究計畫設立永久的單一申訴窗口同時啊這個申訴窗口必須登載在教育部的網站也必須載明在知情同意書上請問部長能不能當場承諾這件事\n\n40\n00:14:22,088 --> 00:14:35,986\n我想這一個我們當然教育部責務龐大但是我更希望學校也能夠建立一個內積內控包括學生在反應的一個單一窗口因為譬如說類似研發處他就可以做譬如說這個學生本來他就可以決定他退出研究的一個地方\n\n41\n00:14:41,152 --> 00:14:51,777\n是研究計畫主持人他是利益關係人學校本身是不是利益關係人有沒有可能所以我想教育部作為最高主導機關我們一定會感謝委員的建議我們會來設好很好那就當場允諾學校也應該要建立大家一起努力我們都同意教育部\n\n42\n00:15:05,143 --> 00:15:10,745\n我們希望把這個更健全的一個體制建立謝謝部長我們今天時間有限還有幾個點我還是希望來提出首先我們在做這個相關的審查的時候我們在審查這個內容IRB的內容的時候我們的這個IRB的審查\n\n43\n00:15:29,864 --> 00:15:50,257\n我們有發現其實檢疫型的審查是主要的那我們去檢查了以後發現IRB的組成人的這個樣態五花八門這個IRB的組成成員有法師有里長有常見的行政人員那如果普通的檢疫案件直接就通過了\n\n44\n00:15:50,717 --> 00:16:08,997\n那還好但是如果是有比較高風險的人體研究計畫他很可能會送到醫院這裡來進行但是也有可能不會所以我想請教也希望呼籲教育部長和衛福部的司長在這裡本席希望具體要求能不能共同研議\n\n45\n00:16:09,838 --> 00:16:24,680\n未來採用一般程序審查的人體試驗研究計畫應該要由學校的IRB和醫療院所的IRB來共同審查剛剛有提到抽血次數的問題也可能是因為兩個分案\n\n46\n00:16:25,601 --> 00:16:36,910\n送到不同的地方審查學校這裡覺得這裡只抽一次醫院這裡也覺得這裡只抽一次可是事實上在同一批人一天可能就變成抽兩次他如果沒有共同審查的話很可能會重放了其實應該要嚴格審查的專案這個部分能不能就此進行研議三個月內因為有跨部會啦\n\n47\n00:16:47,478 --> 00:17:06,773\n以書面答覆本席謝謝委員提醒事實上我們教育部國科會跟衛務部也已經就這一個部分在做內部的這些溝通我們也希望能夠建立一個更精進的一個這樣一個審查的一個機制確保能夠維護這一個學生或者所有的受試者的一個權益我想這一次的事件\n\n48\n00:17:07,830 --> 00:17:24,463\n其實是我們每一個人都要一起來努力去捍衛學生的權益當然我們也理解整個事件還有一些部分在進行調查當中但是我想我們的人權啊我們的學生的學習的權益啊真的非常的重要當他在校園裡面可能因為弱勢\n\n49\n00:17:27,205 --> 00:17:42,795\n他的意見不受重視甚至可能有利益關係利害關係導致他們的聲音沒有辦法傳出來這個真的是我們每一位在這裡的人我們都應該要一起來關注我們希望這個事件能夠有非常好的檢討來改進謝謝謝謝部長謝謝市長謝謝部長請回座\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n12469\t16017\t好謝謝代理主席有請教育部鄭英耀部長請部長\n24195\t46140\t委員好部長早上週我們在議程安排的時候就有風聲聽到說今天可能是部長的重要考試萬一考不過有沒有可能就被左內閣放進二一名單想請教一下部長這個說法是不是屬實我們有沒有機會繼續再看到您想不想再繼續來跟我們一起協作\n47340\t72213\t謝謝委員關心我的去留不過我想這個假設性的問題基本上我其實不方便回答但是就政務官來講我個人認為政務官的進退要優雅要雍容這是我一直一路走來的堅持那說不定委員我也不曉得委員會不會想希望我留下來\n74551\t93444\t我想這個如果不只是優雅從容啊還要能夠努力的捍衛學生權益的話當然是希望您留下來這個是無庸置疑也不要只是把時間花在政治的議題啊也不要把時間花在只是在勾選哪一間學校要停止交流如果是這樣的話我們當然希望您留下來但我想不管你是不是留下來\n98227\t114805\t優雅從容之餘也應該努力到最後一天來捍衛學生的權益也要檢討我們在過去有沒有哪些事情還需要能夠來加強的那我們首先要來請教一下部長這個無限期休假的事件除了您本身的去留其實近期教育界有另外一個議論紛紛的是\n116286\t142238\t其实就是我们的叶秉成次长迄今请假天数已经达到72天社群平台还有网友在计算做了一个计时器就是他请假的天数原本我们教育部有三位次长分工非常的明确但是我们稍微计算了一下其实在叶次长请假的期间当中有32天教育部居然只剩下一位次长\n142938\t157165\t在處理所有的公務啊也就是您在這個圖上面看到的這個這個公務啊在葉市長請假朱市長還沒到位之前有32天的時間只有一位市長處理所有的事部長您知道嗎\n159039\t173699\t我當然知道那所以請問部長嘛您認為長期32天算很長啦少一個次長的情況下有沒有影響到會不會影響到相關政策的推行我想我非常感謝我們教育部的一個團隊\n175041\t191952\t當然在人事異動還有許多接任的時間它當然有一些時間差那這一個期間我們教育部的會不會影響?有沒有影響?我想我們基本上都希望它在所有的政務跟政策的推動它都能夠順暢的在推動中所以過去的這32天對於事務上有沒有影響?\n199208\t217142\t會不會影響一位次長我真的還是要肯定啦張廖次長這一個人扛起來三十二天那當然葉次長請假有他的原因跟理由三十二天有沒有去影響到政策的推行會不會影響基本上我們保持讓他可能的影響降到最低\n218062\t236077\t我想這個部長真的是如果您希望次長趕快消價上班您就要明確的表達那如果您覺得說影響可以降到最低那我們是不是一位次長一位長賜就好啦可以減少納稅人的錢不用必要的支出\n236798\t265266\t否則我想這樣子的一個分工的狀態現在兩位次長我又要替朱次長來抱不平了那甚至萬一這個之後我們的運動部成立了我們次長說不定這個有一些人事的異動調整會不會又出現了一位次長扛下所有的任務我想這個接下來的這些狀況想請教一下次長未來有可能面臨的這個情況你有沒有預先規劃之前可能是意外之後有沒有預先規劃\n266667\t287772\t跟委員報告因為現在在業次長被這個指控這個洩漏違反了這個性平的這個個資那性平的調查小組專案調查小組我們當然希望他趕快把結果調查出來但是因為性平小組他認為必須要還有很多的求證\n288592\t314761\t是 部長我打斷您因為我們已經算過了啦他請假第一輪可以是這個不是請假就是這個事件的調查可以兩個月再加一加一啦所以可能四個月之後如果有申訴假設有申訴的話又再二加一加一啦所以一共可能有八個月啊那我們張耀次長萬一真的高升去當部長了那接下來我們很可能會有人事的異動我是要問您有沒有對這個未來的可能性做準備嘛\n315501\t328888\t我們當然會對人事可能的一個異動我們當然會有一些內部的一些討論好 所以我想不要讓這個單一的次長的工作太繁重可能也會讓底下的部署感到困擾那我們想接下來還是要來請教一個比較專業的議題\n331869\t346617\t就是這個AI課程的聯盟TICA那113年第二學期的參與學校從25所增加到55所對此本席要予以肯定但是近來我們有掌握到一些資訊就是說現在開放5300個名額實際修課的人合計2465人修課但是能夠修完課程並取得學分的人各課程介於190人到368人之間事實上只有4到6成\n360685\t364437\t請問部長 教育部有沒有好好去了解學生沒有完成課程的原因\n365506\t391157\t我想這個首先就這個來講我要非常感謝我們葉次長當時在AI內閣裡面他快速的整合清大台大成大為主的這些大學的這個AI的教授很快速的透過網路上的我想謝謝部長這個我們都知道我是要問您啊現在已經有問題發生了我也很感謝葉次長在這個企劃上跟委員報告人員不能讓我多說一點\n395319\t398363\t說一些新聞上沒有講過您沒有講過的我說新聞上沒講過的簡單來講我們當時這一個五門課快速的在去年九月開了五門課有將近兩千五百人休課那當然第一\n411101\t435333\t第一學期的時候許多的課在網路上包括學生的休課等等的確實有一些學生並沒有通過通過率才只有1322位大概就56到57%不好意思部長我真的要打斷您您在浪費我的時間啊我現在要講的是第二學期的事你現在還在跟我回顧第一學期第二學期的\n436073\t463482\t所謂的既有的25所學校裡面高達48%將近一半選客人數呈現衰退你們到底有沒有掌握更委員報告甚至我要繼續講我甚至要講台師大為例六門課程裡面有五門的修課人數是零然後最後通過的人全部是掛蛋的兩間學校全部是零人你現在在跟我講什麼第一學期沒有\n464262\t483413\t我要問的是學生為什麼越來越選越少我們在進步中第二學期開始我們就收了有四千幾乎快double的學生休克四千四百位然後通過有三千三百位現在我數字都整理給你了\n484173\t495997\t就開始在下降開始在下降有沒有去了解原因是不是太難還是什麼原因為什麼有這麼多既有的學校都是下降的\n499878\t505739\t但是也有可能的原因像台師大的AI的老師他們也慢慢在豐富所以他們可能就自己開課我們本來這個網路上希望能夠用整合這個大學好的一個資源能夠去彌補許多學校可能沒有AI的專任老師那如果學校已經有的他當然學生就近實體的上課方便所以部長我想我很肯定葉次長當時提出這個計畫\n528965\t556586\t那現在持續的擴增他現在請假我們也先理解他但是呢現在這個計畫又面臨到新的挑戰休克人數在下降既有的25所學校裡面還有人掛蛋的台師大是零人完課您知道嗎那您的理由是說台師大已經有自己的AI課程了那我們要抬卡做什麼呢是不是開始造成學校額外的重複行政的困擾他是不是有補助有沒有補助補助完了零人休克這樣可以嗎\n559793\t573076\t我們就希望台城新郊的能量老師的能量能夠與陸新山全國的所有的大學生研究生他們能夠也能夠受惠新學期8月要展開啦那也希望部長趕快不管您是優雅從容還是怎麼樣努力到最後我們還是希望台卡的課程要持續優化好不好\n582958\t597995\t那接下來啦我想我們還是要來關注一下令人震驚跟心痛的這個台師大女卒抽血案的事件那來請教部長和國客會的書副主委和衛福部的劉師長請代理主席讓書副主委跟劉師長就備巡台\n599495\t625853\t請相關部會首長那我借用一點時間那首先呢剛剛柯志恩委員在質詢的時候有提到抽查的狀況結果我們教育部其實並沒有仔細的講啊我們這裡取得的這個教育部的IRB的這個所謂的查核的狀況我們這個案子啊其實是3到7年的時間111年就有抽查到國立台灣師範大學\n628135\t638005\t當時抽查的狀況怎麼樣如果當時有用心抽查我們很有可能提前發現這個案件的問題請教一下110年抽查的情況如何\n639386\t667123\t為什麼會讓這個案子還留下來報告委員我們抽查的項目主要是針對他們整體的學校的IRB的運作機制跟相關的一些那個執行的狀況那針對個案的異常的狀況有些時候真的必須要到就是說實地抽查才會來我幫您整理啦就是有抽查但這個案子沒有抽查到啦那我想這還是要檢討一下那變成這個抽查變成圖據形式嘛\n667563\t687807\t那而且這個抽查學校變成不定期查核學校那接下來有沒有這個查核的頻率、頻次、內容、深度是不是要做調整我想這個可能要檢討那另外請教一下兩位教育部與國科會對於這個案件知曉的時間點請教一下副主委跟部長知曉的時間點是什麼這個案子這個案子我們是去年113年11月28\n695385\t712667\t我想部長這邊我想11月28號陳培於委員揭發此事報導得知那我念一下這個媒體學生的這個刊出的這個說法啦我想這個細節我真的看了非常難過我就不多念了\n713388\t722380\t但我想在這樣的一個文字內容下我們完全都可以理解那它還有這個抽血暈眩的狀況我自己抽血也是會暈眩我非常理解這個非常恐怖也非常可怕那個無助的一個狀態而且甚至是可能會產生危險\n731852\t748273\t請問在這種情況下所謂的研究受試者同時也是私生關係的學生他能夠向誰來求助他到底能用什麼樣的救濟管道來救濟我想請教部長啊他這個受到這樣的一個困難他想要尋求救濟他可以找誰\n749494\t758557\t我想這個完全是在這個抽血的過程裡邊我們的醫護人員的一個訓練必須要再加強部長 我講的是結構性的醫護人員可能是外部請來的我可以直接告訴您答案啦我們詢問學生要找什麼救濟管道教育部給我們的答覆是說這個學生可以聯繫研究計畫的主持人\n776226\t801097\t您覺得這樣可以解決問題嗎我想就學生可以當下就這個表達堅定的立場他是不是改天再抽或者等他舒服的等於說延一段時間再抽在當天來講因為以他當時在抽的時候他事實上人是非常不舒服的這個情況下我想他是可以在整個研究計畫裡邊部長我想您可能還是沒有了解到整件事情的嚴重性\n802217\t815465\t這些學生到底是不是真的知情同意是不是有可能在校園裡面權利關係不對等的情況之下不是說我今天不想抽可不可以明天抽就沒事了\n816892\t838505\t他有可能一直都不想抽啊所以我想要問的我想要講的就是計劃主持人絕對可能不是一個合適的救助管道所以本席認為啊此案之所以今年累月的累積到最後要求助我們的立法委員來處理就是沒有一個隱密的獨立的通暢的救濟管道\n839065\t860166\t沒有一個單一的申訴窗口所以本席在這裡要具體要求教育部必須要針對主管的IRB審查的人體研究計畫設立永久的單一申訴窗口同時啊這個申訴窗口必須登載在教育部的網站也必須載明在知情同意書上請問部長能不能當場承諾這件事\n862088\t875986\t我想這一個我們當然教育部責務龐大但是我更希望學校也能夠建立一個內積內控包括學生在反應的一個單一窗口因為譬如說類似研發處他就可以做譬如說這個學生本來他就可以決定他退出研究的一個地方\n881152\t891777\t是研究計畫主持人他是利益關係人學校本身是不是利益關係人有沒有可能所以我想教育部作為最高主導機關我們一定會感謝委員的建議我們會來設好很好那就當場允諾學校也應該要建立大家一起努力我們都同意教育部\n905143\t910745\t我們希望把這個更健全的一個體制建立謝謝部長我們今天時間有限還有幾個點我還是希望來提出首先我們在做這個相關的審查的時候我們在審查這個內容IRB的內容的時候我們的這個IRB的審查\n929864\t950257\t我們有發現其實檢疫型的審查是主要的那我們去檢查了以後發現IRB的組成人的這個樣態五花八門這個IRB的組成成員有法師有里長有常見的行政人員那如果普通的檢疫案件直接就通過了\n950717\t968997\t那還好但是如果是有比較高風險的人體研究計畫他很可能會送到醫院這裡來進行但是也有可能不會所以我想請教也希望呼籲教育部長和衛福部的司長在這裡本席希望具體要求能不能共同研議\n969838\t984680\t未來採用一般程序審查的人體試驗研究計畫應該要由學校的IRB和醫療院所的IRB來共同審查剛剛有提到抽血次數的問題也可能是因為兩個分案\n985601\t996910\t送到不同的地方審查學校這裡覺得這裡只抽一次醫院這裡也覺得這裡只抽一次可是事實上在同一批人一天可能就變成抽兩次他如果沒有共同審查的話很可能會重放了其實應該要嚴格審查的專案這個部分能不能就此進行研議三個月內因為有跨部會啦\n1007478\t1026773\t以書面答覆本席謝謝委員提醒事實上我們教育部國科會跟衛務部也已經就這一個部分在做內部的這些溝通我們也希望能夠建立一個更精進的一個這樣一個審查的一個機制確保能夠維護這一個學生或者所有的受試者的一個權益我想這一次的事件\n1027830\t1044463\t其實是我們每一個人都要一起來努力去捍衛學生的權益當然我們也理解整個事件還有一些部分在進行調查當中但是我想我們的人權啊我們的學生的學習的權益啊真的非常的重要當他在校園裡面可能因為弱勢\n1047205\t1062795\t他的意見不受重視甚至可能有利益關係利害關係導致他們的聲音沒有辦法傳出來這個真的是我們每一位在這裡的人我們都應該要一起來關注我們希望這個事件能夠有非常好的檢討來改進謝謝 謝謝部長謝謝市長謝謝部長 請回座\n","txt":"好謝謝代理主席有請教育部鄭英耀部長請部長\n委員好部長早上週我們在議程安排的時候就有風聲聽到說今天可能是部長的重要考試萬一考不過有沒有可能就被左內閣放進二一名單想請教一下部長這個說法是不是屬實我們有沒有機會繼續再看到您想不想再繼續來跟我們一起協作\n謝謝委員關心我的去留不過我想這個假設性的問題基本上我其實不方便回答但是就政務官來講我個人認為政務官的進退要優雅要雍容這是我一直一路走來的堅持那說不定委員我也不曉得委員會不會想希望我留下來\n我想這個如果不只是優雅從容啊還要能夠努力的捍衛學生權益的話當然是希望您留下來這個是無庸置疑也不要只是把時間花在政治的議題啊也不要把時間花在只是在勾選哪一間學校要停止交流如果是這樣的話我們當然希望您留下來但我想不管你是不是留下來\n優雅從容之餘也應該努力到最後一天來捍衛學生的權益也要檢討我們在過去有沒有哪些事情還需要能夠來加強的那我們首先要來請教一下部長這個無限期休假的事件除了您本身的去留其實近期教育界有另外一個議論紛紛的是\n其实就是我们的叶秉成次长迄今请假天数已经达到72天社群平台还有网友在计算做了一个计时器就是他请假的天数原本我们教育部有三位次长分工非常的明确但是我们稍微计算了一下其实在叶次长请假的期间当中有32天教育部居然只剩下一位次长\n在處理所有的公務啊也就是您在這個圖上面看到的這個這個公務啊在葉市長請假朱市長還沒到位之前有32天的時間只有一位市長處理所有的事部長您知道嗎\n我當然知道那所以請問部長嘛您認為長期32天算很長啦少一個次長的情況下有沒有影響到會不會影響到相關政策的推行我想我非常感謝我們教育部的一個團隊\n當然在人事異動還有許多接任的時間它當然有一些時間差那這一個期間我們教育部的會不會影響?有沒有影響?我想我們基本上都希望它在所有的政務跟政策的推動它都能夠順暢的在推動中所以過去的這32天對於事務上有沒有影響?\n會不會影響一位次長我真的還是要肯定啦張廖次長這一個人扛起來三十二天那當然葉次長請假有他的原因跟理由三十二天有沒有去影響到政策的推行會不會影響基本上我們保持讓他可能的影響降到最低\n我想這個部長真的是如果您希望次長趕快消價上班您就要明確的表達那如果您覺得說影響可以降到最低那我們是不是一位次長一位長賜就好啦可以減少納稅人的錢不用必要的支出\n否則我想這樣子的一個分工的狀態現在兩位次長我又要替朱次長來抱不平了那甚至萬一這個之後我們的運動部成立了我們次長說不定這個有一些人事的異動調整會不會又出現了一位次長扛下所有的任務我想這個接下來的這些狀況想請教一下次長未來有可能面臨的這個情況你有沒有預先規劃之前可能是意外之後有沒有預先規劃\n跟委員報告因為現在在業次長被這個指控這個洩漏違反了這個性平的這個個資那性平的調查小組專案調查小組我們當然希望他趕快把結果調查出來但是因為性平小組他認為必須要還有很多的求證\n是 部長我打斷您因為我們已經算過了啦他請假第一輪可以是這個不是請假就是這個事件的調查可以兩個月再加一加一啦所以可能四個月之後如果有申訴假設有申訴的話又再二加一加一啦所以一共可能有八個月啊那我們張耀次長萬一真的高升去當部長了那接下來我們很可能會有人事的異動我是要問您有沒有對這個未來的可能性做準備嘛\n我們當然會對人事可能的一個異動我們當然會有一些內部的一些討論好 所以我想不要讓這個單一的次長的工作太繁重可能也會讓底下的部署感到困擾那我們想接下來還是要來請教一個比較專業的議題\n就是這個AI課程的聯盟TICA那113年第二學期的參與學校從25所增加到55所對此本席要予以肯定但是近來我們有掌握到一些資訊就是說現在開放5300個名額實際修課的人合計2465人修課但是能夠修完課程並取得學分的人各課程介於190人到368人之間事實上只有4到6成\n請問部長 教育部有沒有好好去了解學生沒有完成課程的原因\n我想這個首先就這個來講我要非常感謝我們葉次長當時在AI內閣裡面他快速的整合清大台大成大為主的這些大學的這個AI的教授很快速的透過網路上的我想謝謝部長這個我們都知道我是要問您啊現在已經有問題發生了我也很感謝葉次長在這個企劃上跟委員報告人員不能讓我多說一點\n說一些新聞上沒有講過您沒有講過的我說新聞上沒講過的簡單來講我們當時這一個五門課快速的在去年九月開了五門課有將近兩千五百人休課那當然第一\n第一學期的時候許多的課在網路上包括學生的休課等等的確實有一些學生並沒有通過通過率才只有1322位大概就56到57%不好意思部長我真的要打斷您您在浪費我的時間啊我現在要講的是第二學期的事你現在還在跟我回顧第一學期第二學期的\n所謂的既有的25所學校裡面高達48%將近一半選客人數呈現衰退你們到底有沒有掌握更委員報告甚至我要繼續講我甚至要講台師大為例六門課程裡面有五門的修課人數是零然後最後通過的人全部是掛蛋的兩間學校全部是零人你現在在跟我講什麼第一學期沒有\n我要問的是學生為什麼越來越選越少我們在進步中第二學期開始我們就收了有四千幾乎快double的學生休克四千四百位然後通過有三千三百位現在我數字都整理給你了\n就開始在下降開始在下降有沒有去了解原因是不是太難還是什麼原因為什麼有這麼多既有的學校都是下降的\n但是也有可能的原因像台師大的AI的老師他們也慢慢在豐富所以他們可能就自己開課我們本來這個網路上希望能夠用整合這個大學好的一個資源能夠去彌補許多學校可能沒有AI的專任老師那如果學校已經有的他當然學生就近實體的上課方便所以部長我想我很肯定葉次長當時提出這個計畫\n那現在持續的擴增他現在請假我們也先理解他但是呢現在這個計畫又面臨到新的挑戰休克人數在下降既有的25所學校裡面還有人掛蛋的台師大是零人完課您知道嗎那您的理由是說台師大已經有自己的AI課程了那我們要抬卡做什麼呢是不是開始造成學校額外的重複行政的困擾他是不是有補助有沒有補助補助完了零人休克這樣可以嗎\n我們就希望台城新郊的能量老師的能量能夠與陸新山全國的所有的大學生研究生他們能夠也能夠受惠新學期8月要展開啦那也希望部長趕快不管您是優雅從容還是怎麼樣努力到最後我們還是希望台卡的課程要持續優化好不好\n那接下來啦我想我們還是要來關注一下令人震驚跟心痛的這個台師大女卒抽血案的事件那來請教部長和國客會的書副主委和衛福部的劉師長請代理主席讓書副主委跟劉師長就備巡台\n請相關部會首長那我借用一點時間那首先呢剛剛柯志恩委員在質詢的時候有提到抽查的狀況結果我們教育部其實並沒有仔細的講啊我們這裡取得的這個教育部的IRB的這個所謂的查核的狀況我們這個案子啊其實是3到7年的時間111年就有抽查到國立台灣師範大學\n當時抽查的狀況怎麼樣如果當時有用心抽查我們很有可能提前發現這個案件的問題請教一下110年抽查的情況如何\n為什麼會讓這個案子還留下來報告委員我們抽查的項目主要是針對他們整體的學校的IRB的運作機制跟相關的一些那個執行的狀況那針對個案的異常的狀況有些時候真的必須要到就是說實地抽查才會來我幫您整理啦就是有抽查但這個案子沒有抽查到啦那我想這還是要檢討一下那變成這個抽查變成圖據形式嘛\n那而且這個抽查學校變成不定期查核學校那接下來有沒有這個查核的頻率、頻次、內容、深度是不是要做調整我想這個可能要檢討那另外請教一下兩位教育部與國科會對於這個案件知曉的時間點請教一下副主委跟部長知曉的時間點是什麼這個案子這個案子我們是去年113年11月28\n我想部長這邊我想11月28號陳培於委員揭發此事報導得知那我念一下這個媒體學生的這個刊出的這個說法啦我想這個細節我真的看了非常難過我就不多念了\n但我想在這樣的一個文字內容下我們完全都可以理解那它還有這個抽血暈眩的狀況我自己抽血也是會暈眩我非常理解這個非常恐怖也非常可怕那個無助的一個狀態而且甚至是可能會產生危險\n請問在這種情況下所謂的研究受試者同時也是私生關係的學生他能夠向誰來求助他到底能用什麼樣的救濟管道來救濟我想請教部長啊他這個受到這樣的一個困難他想要尋求救濟他可以找誰\n我想這個完全是在這個抽血的過程裡邊我們的醫護人員的一個訓練必須要再加強部長 我講的是結構性的醫護人員可能是外部請來的我可以直接告訴您答案啦我們詢問學生要找什麼救濟管道教育部給我們的答覆是說這個學生可以聯繫研究計畫的主持人\n您覺得這樣可以解決問題嗎我想就學生可以當下就這個表達堅定的立場他是不是改天再抽或者等他舒服的等於說延一段時間再抽在當天來講因為以他當時在抽的時候他事實上人是非常不舒服的這個情況下我想他是可以在整個研究計畫裡邊部長我想您可能還是沒有了解到整件事情的嚴重性\n這些學生到底是不是真的知情同意是不是有可能在校園裡面權利關係不對等的情況之下不是說我今天不想抽可不可以明天抽就沒事了\n他有可能一直都不想抽啊所以我想要問的我想要講的就是計劃主持人絕對可能不是一個合適的救助管道所以本席認為啊此案之所以今年累月的累積到最後要求助我們的立法委員來處理就是沒有一個隱密的獨立的通暢的救濟管道\n沒有一個單一的申訴窗口所以本席在這裡要具體要求教育部必須要針對主管的IRB審查的人體研究計畫設立永久的單一申訴窗口同時啊這個申訴窗口必須登載在教育部的網站也必須載明在知情同意書上請問部長能不能當場承諾這件事\n我想這一個我們當然教育部責務龐大但是我更希望學校也能夠建立一個內積內控包括學生在反應的一個單一窗口因為譬如說類似研發處他就可以做譬如說這個學生本來他就可以決定他退出研究的一個地方\n是研究計畫主持人他是利益關係人學校本身是不是利益關係人有沒有可能所以我想教育部作為最高主導機關我們一定會感謝委員的建議我們會來設好很好那就當場允諾學校也應該要建立大家一起努力我們都同意教育部\n我們希望把這個更健全的一個體制建立謝謝部長我們今天時間有限還有幾個點我還是希望來提出首先我們在做這個相關的審查的時候我們在審查這個內容IRB的內容的時候我們的這個IRB的審查\n我們有發現其實檢疫型的審查是主要的那我們去檢查了以後發現IRB的組成人的這個樣態五花八門這個IRB的組成成員有法師有里長有常見的行政人員那如果普通的檢疫案件直接就通過了\n那還好但是如果是有比較高風險的人體研究計畫他很可能會送到醫院這裡來進行但是也有可能不會所以我想請教也希望呼籲教育部長和衛福部的司長在這裡本席希望具體要求能不能共同研議\n未來採用一般程序審查的人體試驗研究計畫應該要由學校的IRB和醫療院所的IRB來共同審查剛剛有提到抽血次數的問題也可能是因為兩個分案\n送到不同的地方審查學校這裡覺得這裡只抽一次醫院這裡也覺得這裡只抽一次可是事實上在同一批人一天可能就變成抽兩次他如果沒有共同審查的話很可能會重放了其實應該要嚴格審查的專案這個部分能不能就此進行研議三個月內因為有跨部會啦\n以書面答覆本席謝謝委員提醒事實上我們教育部國科會跟衛務部也已經就這一個部分在做內部的這些溝通我們也希望能夠建立一個更精進的一個這樣一個審查的一個機制確保能夠維護這一個學生或者所有的受試者的一個權益我想這一次的事件\n其實是我們每一個人都要一起來努力去捍衛學生的權益當然我們也理解整個事件還有一些部分在進行調查當中但是我想我們的人權啊我們的學生的學習的權益啊真的非常的重要當他在校園裡面可能因為弱勢\n他的意見不受重視甚至可能有利益關係利害關係導致他們的聲音沒有辦法傳出來這個真的是我們每一位在這裡的人我們都應該要一起來關注我們希望這個事件能夠有非常好的檢討來改進謝謝 謝謝部長謝謝市長謝謝部長 請回座\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:12.469 --> 00:16.017\n好謝謝代理主席有請教育部鄭英耀部長請部長\n\n00:24.195 --> 00:46.140\n委員好部長早上週我們在議程安排的時候就有風聲聽到說今天可能是部長的重要考試萬一考不過有沒有可能就被左內閣放進二一名單想請教一下部長這個說法是不是屬實我們有沒有機會繼續再看到您想不想再繼續來跟我們一起協作\n\n00:47.340 --> 01:12.213\n謝謝委員關心我的去留不過我想這個假設性的問題基本上我其實不方便回答但是就政務官來講我個人認為政務官的進退要優雅要雍容這是我一直一路走來的堅持那說不定委員我也不曉得委員會不會想希望我留下來\n\n01:14.551 --> 01:33.444\n我想這個如果不只是優雅從容啊還要能夠努力的捍衛學生權益的話當然是希望您留下來這個是無庸置疑也不要只是把時間花在政治的議題啊也不要把時間花在只是在勾選哪一間學校要停止交流如果是這樣的話我們當然希望您留下來但我想不管你是不是留下來\n\n01:38.227 --> 01:54.805\n優雅從容之餘也應該努力到最後一天來捍衛學生的權益也要檢討我們在過去有沒有哪些事情還需要能夠來加強的那我們首先要來請教一下部長這個無限期休假的事件除了您本身的去留其實近期教育界有另外一個議論紛紛的是\n\n01:56.286 --> 02:22.238\n其实就是我们的叶秉成次长迄今请假天数已经达到72天社群平台还有网友在计算做了一个计时器就是他请假的天数原本我们教育部有三位次长分工非常的明确但是我们稍微计算了一下其实在叶次长请假的期间当中有32天教育部居然只剩下一位次长\n\n02:22.938 --> 02:37.165\n在處理所有的公務啊也就是您在這個圖上面看到的這個這個公務啊在葉市長請假朱市長還沒到位之前有32天的時間只有一位市長處理所有的事部長您知道嗎\n\n02:39.039 --> 02:53.699\n我當然知道那所以請問部長嘛您認為長期32天算很長啦少一個次長的情況下有沒有影響到會不會影響到相關政策的推行我想我非常感謝我們教育部的一個團隊\n\n02:55.041 --> 03:11.952\n當然在人事異動還有許多接任的時間它當然有一些時間差那這一個期間我們教育部的會不會影響?有沒有影響?我想我們基本上都希望它在所有的政務跟政策的推動它都能夠順暢的在推動中所以過去的這32天對於事務上有沒有影響?\n\n03:19.208 --> 03:37.142\n會不會影響一位次長我真的還是要肯定啦張廖次長這一個人扛起來三十二天那當然葉次長請假有他的原因跟理由三十二天有沒有去影響到政策的推行會不會影響基本上我們保持讓他可能的影響降到最低\n\n03:38.062 --> 03:56.077\n我想這個部長真的是如果您希望次長趕快消價上班您就要明確的表達那如果您覺得說影響可以降到最低那我們是不是一位次長一位長賜就好啦可以減少納稅人的錢不用必要的支出\n\n03:56.798 --> 04:25.266\n否則我想這樣子的一個分工的狀態現在兩位次長我又要替朱次長來抱不平了那甚至萬一這個之後我們的運動部成立了我們次長說不定這個有一些人事的異動調整會不會又出現了一位次長扛下所有的任務我想這個接下來的這些狀況想請教一下次長未來有可能面臨的這個情況你有沒有預先規劃之前可能是意外之後有沒有預先規劃\n\n04:26.667 --> 04:47.772\n跟委員報告因為現在在業次長被這個指控這個洩漏違反了這個性平的這個個資那性平的調查小組專案調查小組我們當然希望他趕快把結果調查出來但是因為性平小組他認為必須要還有很多的求證\n\n04:48.592 --> 05:14.761\n是部長我打斷您因為我們已經算過了啦他請假第一輪可以是這個不是請假就是這個事件的調查可以兩個月再加一加一啦所以可能四個月之後如果有申訴假設有申訴的話又再二加一加一啦所以一共可能有八個月啊那我們張耀次長萬一真的高升去當部長了那接下來我們很可能會有人事的異動我是要問您有沒有對這個未來的可能性做準備嘛\n\n05:15.501 --> 05:28.888\n我們當然會對人事可能的一個異動我們當然會有一些內部的一些討論好所以我想不要讓這個單一的次長的工作太繁重可能也會讓底下的部署感到困擾那我們想接下來還是要來請教一個比較專業的議題\n\n05:31.869 --> 05:46.617\n就是這個AI課程的聯盟TICA那113年第二學期的參與學校從25所增加到55所對此本席要予以肯定但是近來我們有掌握到一些資訊就是說現在開放5300個名額實際修課的人合計2465人修課但是能夠修完課程並取得學分的人各課程介於190人到368人之間事實上只有4到6成\n\n06:00.685 --> 06:04.437\n請問部長教育部有沒有好好去了解學生沒有完成課程的原因\n\n06:05.506 --> 06:31.157\n我想這個首先就這個來講我要非常感謝我們葉次長當時在AI內閣裡面他快速的整合清大台大成大為主的這些大學的這個AI的教授很快速的透過網路上的我想謝謝部長這個我們都知道我是要問您啊現在已經有問題發生了我也很感謝葉次長在這個企劃上跟委員報告人員不能讓我多說一點\n\n06:35.319 --> 06:38.363\n說一些新聞上沒有講過您沒有講過的我說新聞上沒講過的簡單來講我們當時這一個五門課快速的在去年九月開了五門課有將近兩千五百人休課那當然第一\n\n06:51.101 --> 07:15.333\n第一學期的時候許多的課在網路上包括學生的休課等等的確實有一些學生並沒有通過通過率才只有1322位大概就56到57%不好意思部長我真的要打斷您您在浪費我的時間啊我現在要講的是第二學期的事你現在還在跟我回顧第一學期第二學期的\n\n07:16.073 --> 07:43.482\n所謂的既有的25所學校裡面高達48%將近一半選客人數呈現衰退你們到底有沒有掌握更委員報告甚至我要繼續講我甚至要講台師大為例六門課程裡面有五門的修課人數是零然後最後通過的人全部是掛蛋的兩間學校全部是零人你現在在跟我講什麼第一學期沒有\n\n07:44.262 --> 08:03.413\n我要問的是學生為什麼越來越選越少我們在進步中第二學期開始我們就收了有四千幾乎快double的學生休克四千四百位然後通過有三千三百位現在我數字都整理給你了\n\n08:04.173 --> 08:15.997\n就開始在下降開始在下降有沒有去了解原因是不是太難還是什麼原因為什麼有這麼多既有的學校都是下降的\n\n08:19.878 --> 08:25.739\n但是也有可能的原因像台師大的AI的老師他們也慢慢在豐富所以他們可能就自己開課我們本來這個網路上希望能夠用整合這個大學好的一個資源能夠去彌補許多學校可能沒有AI的專任老師那如果學校已經有的他當然學生就近實體的上課方便所以部長我想我很肯定葉次長當時提出這個計畫\n\n08:48.965 --> 09:16.586\n那現在持續的擴增他現在請假我們也先理解他但是呢現在這個計畫又面臨到新的挑戰休克人數在下降既有的25所學校裡面還有人掛蛋的台師大是零人完課您知道嗎那您的理由是說台師大已經有自己的AI課程了那我們要抬卡做什麼呢是不是開始造成學校額外的重複行政的困擾他是不是有補助有沒有補助補助完了零人休克這樣可以嗎\n\n09:19.793 --> 09:33.076\n我們就希望台城新郊的能量老師的能量能夠與陸新山全國的所有的大學生研究生他們能夠也能夠受惠新學期8月要展開啦那也希望部長趕快不管您是優雅從容還是怎麼樣努力到最後我們還是希望台卡的課程要持續優化好不好\n\n09:42.958 --> 09:57.995\n那接下來啦我想我們還是要來關注一下令人震驚跟心痛的這個台師大女卒抽血案的事件那來請教部長和國客會的書副主委和衛福部的劉師長請代理主席讓書副主委跟劉師長就備巡台\n\n09:59.495 --> 10:25.853\n請相關部會首長那我借用一點時間那首先呢剛剛柯志恩委員在質詢的時候有提到抽查的狀況結果我們教育部其實並沒有仔細的講啊我們這裡取得的這個教育部的IRB的這個所謂的查核的狀況我們這個案子啊其實是3到7年的時間111年就有抽查到國立台灣師範大學\n\n10:28.135 --> 10:38.005\n當時抽查的狀況怎麼樣如果當時有用心抽查我們很有可能提前發現這個案件的問題請教一下110年抽查的情況如何\n\n10:39.386 --> 11:07.123\n為什麼會讓這個案子還留下來報告委員我們抽查的項目主要是針對他們整體的學校的IRB的運作機制跟相關的一些那個執行的狀況那針對個案的異常的狀況有些時候真的必須要到就是說實地抽查才會來我幫您整理啦就是有抽查但這個案子沒有抽查到啦那我想這還是要檢討一下那變成這個抽查變成圖據形式嘛\n\n11:07.563 --> 11:27.807\n那而且這個抽查學校變成不定期查核學校那接下來有沒有這個查核的頻率、頻次、內容、深度是不是要做調整我想這個可能要檢討那另外請教一下兩位教育部與國科會對於這個案件知曉的時間點請教一下副主委跟部長知曉的時間點是什麼這個案子這個案子我們是去年113年11月28\n\n11:35.385 --> 11:52.667\n我想部長這邊我想11月28號陳培於委員揭發此事報導得知那我念一下這個媒體學生的這個刊出的這個說法啦我想這個細節我真的看了非常難過我就不多念了\n\n11:53.388 --> 12:02.380\n但我想在這樣的一個文字內容下我們完全都可以理解那它還有這個抽血暈眩的狀況我自己抽血也是會暈眩我非常理解這個非常恐怖也非常可怕那個無助的一個狀態而且甚至是可能會產生危險\n\n12:11.852 --> 12:28.273\n請問在這種情況下所謂的研究受試者同時也是私生關係的學生他能夠向誰來求助他到底能用什麼樣的救濟管道來救濟我想請教部長啊他這個受到這樣的一個困難他想要尋求救濟他可以找誰\n\n12:29.494 --> 12:38.557\n我想這個完全是在這個抽血的過程裡邊我們的醫護人員的一個訓練必須要再加強部長我講的是結構性的醫護人員可能是外部請來的我可以直接告訴您答案啦我們詢問學生要找什麼救濟管道教育部給我們的答覆是說這個學生可以聯繫研究計畫的主持人\n\n12:56.226 --> 13:21.097\n您覺得這樣可以解決問題嗎我想就學生可以當下就這個表達堅定的立場他是不是改天再抽或者等他舒服的等於說延一段時間再抽在當天來講因為以他當時在抽的時候他事實上人是非常不舒服的這個情況下我想他是可以在整個研究計畫裡邊部長我想您可能還是沒有了解到整件事情的嚴重性\n\n13:22.217 --> 13:35.465\n這些學生到底是不是真的知情同意是不是有可能在校園裡面權利關係不對等的情況之下不是說我今天不想抽可不可以明天抽就沒事了\n\n13:36.892 --> 13:58.505\n他有可能一直都不想抽啊所以我想要問的我想要講的就是計劃主持人絕對可能不是一個合適的救助管道所以本席認為啊此案之所以今年累月的累積到最後要求助我們的立法委員來處理就是沒有一個隱密的獨立的通暢的救濟管道\n\n13:59.065 --> 14:20.166\n沒有一個單一的申訴窗口所以本席在這裡要具體要求教育部必須要針對主管的IRB審查的人體研究計畫設立永久的單一申訴窗口同時啊這個申訴窗口必須登載在教育部的網站也必須載明在知情同意書上請問部長能不能當場承諾這件事\n\n14:22.088 --> 14:35.986\n我想這一個我們當然教育部責務龐大但是我更希望學校也能夠建立一個內積內控包括學生在反應的一個單一窗口因為譬如說類似研發處他就可以做譬如說這個學生本來他就可以決定他退出研究的一個地方\n\n14:41.152 --> 14:51.777\n是研究計畫主持人他是利益關係人學校本身是不是利益關係人有沒有可能所以我想教育部作為最高主導機關我們一定會感謝委員的建議我們會來設好很好那就當場允諾學校也應該要建立大家一起努力我們都同意教育部\n\n15:05.143 --> 15:10.745\n我們希望把這個更健全的一個體制建立謝謝部長我們今天時間有限還有幾個點我還是希望來提出首先我們在做這個相關的審查的時候我們在審查這個內容IRB的內容的時候我們的這個IRB的審查\n\n15:29.864 --> 15:50.257\n我們有發現其實檢疫型的審查是主要的那我們去檢查了以後發現IRB的組成人的這個樣態五花八門這個IRB的組成成員有法師有里長有常見的行政人員那如果普通的檢疫案件直接就通過了\n\n15:50.717 --> 16:08.997\n那還好但是如果是有比較高風險的人體研究計畫他很可能會送到醫院這裡來進行但是也有可能不會所以我想請教也希望呼籲教育部長和衛福部的司長在這裡本席希望具體要求能不能共同研議\n\n16:09.838 --> 16:24.680\n未來採用一般程序審查的人體試驗研究計畫應該要由學校的IRB和醫療院所的IRB來共同審查剛剛有提到抽血次數的問題也可能是因為兩個分案\n\n16:25.601 --> 16:36.910\n送到不同的地方審查學校這裡覺得這裡只抽一次醫院這裡也覺得這裡只抽一次可是事實上在同一批人一天可能就變成抽兩次他如果沒有共同審查的話很可能會重放了其實應該要嚴格審查的專案這個部分能不能就此進行研議三個月內因為有跨部會啦\n\n16:47.478 --> 17:06.773\n以書面答覆本席謝謝委員提醒事實上我們教育部國科會跟衛務部也已經就這一個部分在做內部的這些溝通我們也希望能夠建立一個更精進的一個這樣一個審查的一個機制確保能夠維護這一個學生或者所有的受試者的一個權益我想這一次的事件\n\n17:07.830 --> 17:24.463\n其實是我們每一個人都要一起來努力去捍衛學生的權益當然我們也理解整個事件還有一些部分在進行調查當中但是我想我們的人權啊我們的學生的學習的權益啊真的非常的重要當他在校園裡面可能因為弱勢\n\n17:27.205 --> 17:42.795\n他的意見不受重視甚至可能有利益關係利害關係導致他們的聲音沒有辦法傳出來這個真的是我們每一位在這裡的人我們都應該要一起來關注我們希望這個事件能夠有非常好的檢討來改進謝謝謝謝部長謝謝市長謝謝部長請回座\n\n","segments":[{"start":12.469,"end":16.017,"text":"好謝謝代理主席有請教育部鄭英耀部長請部長"},{"start":24.195,"end":46.14,"text":"委員好部長早上週我們在議程安排的時候就有風聲聽到說今天可能是部長的重要考試萬一考不過有沒有可能就被左內閣放進二一名單想請教一下部長這個說法是不是屬實我們有沒有機會繼續再看到您想不想再繼續來跟我們一起協作"},{"start":47.34,"end":72.213,"text":"謝謝委員關心我的去留不過我想這個假設性的問題基本上我其實不方便回答但是就政務官來講我個人認為政務官的進退要優雅要雍容這是我一直一路走來的堅持那說不定委員我也不曉得委員會不會想希望我留下來"},{"start":74.551,"end":93.444,"text":"我想這個如果不只是優雅從容啊還要能夠努力的捍衛學生權益的話當然是希望您留下來這個是無庸置疑也不要只是把時間花在政治的議題啊也不要把時間花在只是在勾選哪一間學校要停止交流如果是這樣的話我們當然希望您留下來但我想不管你是不是留下來"},{"start":98.227,"end":114.805,"text":"優雅從容之餘也應該努力到最後一天來捍衛學生的權益也要檢討我們在過去有沒有哪些事情還需要能夠來加強的那我們首先要來請教一下部長這個無限期休假的事件除了您本身的去留其實近期教育界有另外一個議論紛紛的是"},{"start":116.286,"end":142.238,"text":"其实就是我们的叶秉成次长迄今请假天数已经达到72天社群平台还有网友在计算做了一个计时器就是他请假的天数原本我们教育部有三位次长分工非常的明确但是我们稍微计算了一下其实在叶次长请假的期间当中有32天教育部居然只剩下一位次长"},{"start":142.938,"end":157.165,"text":"在處理所有的公務啊也就是您在這個圖上面看到的這個這個公務啊在葉市長請假朱市長還沒到位之前有32天的時間只有一位市長處理所有的事部長您知道嗎"},{"start":159.039,"end":173.699,"text":"我當然知道那所以請問部長嘛您認為長期32天算很長啦少一個次長的情況下有沒有影響到會不會影響到相關政策的推行我想我非常感謝我們教育部的一個團隊"},{"start":175.041,"end":191.952,"text":"當然在人事異動還有許多接任的時間它當然有一些時間差那這一個期間我們教育部的會不會影響?有沒有影響?我想我們基本上都希望它在所有的政務跟政策的推動它都能夠順暢的在推動中所以過去的這32天對於事務上有沒有影響?"},{"start":199.208,"end":217.142,"text":"會不會影響一位次長我真的還是要肯定啦張廖次長這一個人扛起來三十二天那當然葉次長請假有他的原因跟理由三十二天有沒有去影響到政策的推行會不會影響基本上我們保持讓他可能的影響降到最低"},{"start":218.062,"end":236.077,"text":"我想這個部長真的是如果您希望次長趕快消價上班您就要明確的表達那如果您覺得說影響可以降到最低那我們是不是一位次長一位長賜就好啦可以減少納稅人的錢不用必要的支出"},{"start":236.798,"end":265.266,"text":"否則我想這樣子的一個分工的狀態現在兩位次長我又要替朱次長來抱不平了那甚至萬一這個之後我們的運動部成立了我們次長說不定這個有一些人事的異動調整會不會又出現了一位次長扛下所有的任務我想這個接下來的這些狀況想請教一下次長未來有可能面臨的這個情況你有沒有預先規劃之前可能是意外之後有沒有預先規劃"},{"start":266.667,"end":287.772,"text":"跟委員報告因為現在在業次長被這個指控這個洩漏違反了這個性平的這個個資那性平的調查小組專案調查小組我們當然希望他趕快把結果調查出來但是因為性平小組他認為必須要還有很多的求證"},{"start":288.592,"end":314.761,"text":"是 部長我打斷您因為我們已經算過了啦他請假第一輪可以是這個不是請假就是這個事件的調查可以兩個月再加一加一啦所以可能四個月之後如果有申訴假設有申訴的話又再二加一加一啦所以一共可能有八個月啊那我們張耀次長萬一真的高升去當部長了那接下來我們很可能會有人事的異動我是要問您有沒有對這個未來的可能性做準備嘛"},{"start":315.501,"end":328.888,"text":"我們當然會對人事可能的一個異動我們當然會有一些內部的一些討論好 所以我想不要讓這個單一的次長的工作太繁重可能也會讓底下的部署感到困擾那我們想接下來還是要來請教一個比較專業的議題"},{"start":331.869,"end":346.617,"text":"就是這個AI課程的聯盟TICA那113年第二學期的參與學校從25所增加到55所對此本席要予以肯定但是近來我們有掌握到一些資訊就是說現在開放5300個名額實際修課的人合計2465人修課但是能夠修完課程並取得學分的人各課程介於190人到368人之間事實上只有4到6成"},{"start":360.685,"end":364.437,"text":"請問部長 教育部有沒有好好去了解學生沒有完成課程的原因"},{"start":365.506,"end":391.157,"text":"我想這個首先就這個來講我要非常感謝我們葉次長當時在AI內閣裡面他快速的整合清大台大成大為主的這些大學的這個AI的教授很快速的透過網路上的我想謝謝部長這個我們都知道我是要問您啊現在已經有問題發生了我也很感謝葉次長在這個企劃上跟委員報告人員不能讓我多說一點"},{"start":395.319,"end":398.363,"text":"說一些新聞上沒有講過您沒有講過的我說新聞上沒講過的簡單來講我們當時這一個五門課快速的在去年九月開了五門課有將近兩千五百人休課那當然第一"},{"start":411.101,"end":435.333,"text":"第一學期的時候許多的課在網路上包括學生的休課等等的確實有一些學生並沒有通過通過率才只有1322位大概就56到57%不好意思部長我真的要打斷您您在浪費我的時間啊我現在要講的是第二學期的事你現在還在跟我回顧第一學期第二學期的"},{"start":436.073,"end":463.482,"text":"所謂的既有的25所學校裡面高達48%將近一半選客人數呈現衰退你們到底有沒有掌握更委員報告甚至我要繼續講我甚至要講台師大為例六門課程裡面有五門的修課人數是零然後最後通過的人全部是掛蛋的兩間學校全部是零人你現在在跟我講什麼第一學期沒有"},{"start":464.262,"end":483.413,"text":"我要問的是學生為什麼越來越選越少我們在進步中第二學期開始我們就收了有四千幾乎快double的學生休克四千四百位然後通過有三千三百位現在我數字都整理給你了"},{"start":484.173,"end":495.997,"text":"就開始在下降開始在下降有沒有去了解原因是不是太難還是什麼原因為什麼有這麼多既有的學校都是下降的"},{"start":499.878,"end":505.739,"text":"但是也有可能的原因像台師大的AI的老師他們也慢慢在豐富所以他們可能就自己開課我們本來這個網路上希望能夠用整合這個大學好的一個資源能夠去彌補許多學校可能沒有AI的專任老師那如果學校已經有的他當然學生就近實體的上課方便所以部長我想我很肯定葉次長當時提出這個計畫"},{"start":528.965,"end":556.586,"text":"那現在持續的擴增他現在請假我們也先理解他但是呢現在這個計畫又面臨到新的挑戰休克人數在下降既有的25所學校裡面還有人掛蛋的台師大是零人完課您知道嗎那您的理由是說台師大已經有自己的AI課程了那我們要抬卡做什麼呢是不是開始造成學校額外的重複行政的困擾他是不是有補助有沒有補助補助完了零人休克這樣可以嗎"},{"start":559.793,"end":573.076,"text":"我們就希望台城新郊的能量老師的能量能夠與陸新山全國的所有的大學生研究生他們能夠也能夠受惠新學期8月要展開啦那也希望部長趕快不管您是優雅從容還是怎麼樣努力到最後我們還是希望台卡的課程要持續優化好不好"},{"start":582.958,"end":597.995,"text":"那接下來啦我想我們還是要來關注一下令人震驚跟心痛的這個台師大女卒抽血案的事件那來請教部長和國客會的書副主委和衛福部的劉師長請代理主席讓書副主委跟劉師長就備巡台"},{"start":599.495,"end":625.853,"text":"請相關部會首長那我借用一點時間那首先呢剛剛柯志恩委員在質詢的時候有提到抽查的狀況結果我們教育部其實並沒有仔細的講啊我們這裡取得的這個教育部的IRB的這個所謂的查核的狀況我們這個案子啊其實是3到7年的時間111年就有抽查到國立台灣師範大學"},{"start":628.135,"end":638.005,"text":"當時抽查的狀況怎麼樣如果當時有用心抽查我們很有可能提前發現這個案件的問題請教一下110年抽查的情況如何"},{"start":639.386,"end":667.123,"text":"為什麼會讓這個案子還留下來報告委員我們抽查的項目主要是針對他們整體的學校的IRB的運作機制跟相關的一些那個執行的狀況那針對個案的異常的狀況有些時候真的必須要到就是說實地抽查才會來我幫您整理啦就是有抽查但這個案子沒有抽查到啦那我想這還是要檢討一下那變成這個抽查變成圖據形式嘛"},{"start":667.563,"end":687.807,"text":"那而且這個抽查學校變成不定期查核學校那接下來有沒有這個查核的頻率、頻次、內容、深度是不是要做調整我想這個可能要檢討那另外請教一下兩位教育部與國科會對於這個案件知曉的時間點請教一下副主委跟部長知曉的時間點是什麼這個案子這個案子我們是去年113年11月28"},{"start":695.385,"end":712.667,"text":"我想部長這邊我想11月28號陳培於委員揭發此事報導得知那我念一下這個媒體學生的這個刊出的這個說法啦我想這個細節我真的看了非常難過我就不多念了"},{"start":713.388,"end":722.38,"text":"但我想在這樣的一個文字內容下我們完全都可以理解那它還有這個抽血暈眩的狀況我自己抽血也是會暈眩我非常理解這個非常恐怖也非常可怕那個無助的一個狀態而且甚至是可能會產生危險"},{"start":731.852,"end":748.273,"text":"請問在這種情況下所謂的研究受試者同時也是私生關係的學生他能夠向誰來求助他到底能用什麼樣的救濟管道來救濟我想請教部長啊他這個受到這樣的一個困難他想要尋求救濟他可以找誰"},{"start":749.494,"end":758.557,"text":"我想這個完全是在這個抽血的過程裡邊我們的醫護人員的一個訓練必須要再加強部長 我講的是結構性的醫護人員可能是外部請來的我可以直接告訴您答案啦我們詢問學生要找什麼救濟管道教育部給我們的答覆是說這個學生可以聯繫研究計畫的主持人"},{"start":776.226,"end":801.097,"text":"您覺得這樣可以解決問題嗎我想就學生可以當下就這個表達堅定的立場他是不是改天再抽或者等他舒服的等於說延一段時間再抽在當天來講因為以他當時在抽的時候他事實上人是非常不舒服的這個情況下我想他是可以在整個研究計畫裡邊部長我想您可能還是沒有了解到整件事情的嚴重性"},{"start":802.217,"end":815.465,"text":"這些學生到底是不是真的知情同意是不是有可能在校園裡面權利關係不對等的情況之下不是說我今天不想抽可不可以明天抽就沒事了"},{"start":816.892,"end":838.505,"text":"他有可能一直都不想抽啊所以我想要問的我想要講的就是計劃主持人絕對可能不是一個合適的救助管道所以本席認為啊此案之所以今年累月的累積到最後要求助我們的立法委員來處理就是沒有一個隱密的獨立的通暢的救濟管道"},{"start":839.065,"end":860.166,"text":"沒有一個單一的申訴窗口所以本席在這裡要具體要求教育部必須要針對主管的IRB審查的人體研究計畫設立永久的單一申訴窗口同時啊這個申訴窗口必須登載在教育部的網站也必須載明在知情同意書上請問部長能不能當場承諾這件事"},{"start":862.088,"end":875.986,"text":"我想這一個我們當然教育部責務龐大但是我更希望學校也能夠建立一個內積內控包括學生在反應的一個單一窗口因為譬如說類似研發處他就可以做譬如說這個學生本來他就可以決定他退出研究的一個地方"},{"start":881.152,"end":891.777,"text":"是研究計畫主持人他是利益關係人學校本身是不是利益關係人有沒有可能所以我想教育部作為最高主導機關我們一定會感謝委員的建議我們會來設好很好那就當場允諾學校也應該要建立大家一起努力我們都同意教育部"},{"start":905.143,"end":910.745,"text":"我們希望把這個更健全的一個體制建立謝謝部長我們今天時間有限還有幾個點我還是希望來提出首先我們在做這個相關的審查的時候我們在審查這個內容IRB的內容的時候我們的這個IRB的審查"},{"start":929.864,"end":950.257,"text":"我們有發現其實檢疫型的審查是主要的那我們去檢查了以後發現IRB的組成人的這個樣態五花八門這個IRB的組成成員有法師有里長有常見的行政人員那如果普通的檢疫案件直接就通過了"},{"start":950.717,"end":968.997,"text":"那還好但是如果是有比較高風險的人體研究計畫他很可能會送到醫院這裡來進行但是也有可能不會所以我想請教也希望呼籲教育部長和衛福部的司長在這裡本席希望具體要求能不能共同研議"},{"start":969.838,"end":984.68,"text":"未來採用一般程序審查的人體試驗研究計畫應該要由學校的IRB和醫療院所的IRB來共同審查剛剛有提到抽血次數的問題也可能是因為兩個分案"},{"start":985.601,"end":996.91,"text":"送到不同的地方審查學校這裡覺得這裡只抽一次醫院這裡也覺得這裡只抽一次可是事實上在同一批人一天可能就變成抽兩次他如果沒有共同審查的話很可能會重放了其實應該要嚴格審查的專案這個部分能不能就此進行研議三個月內因為有跨部會啦"},{"start":1007.478,"end":1026.773,"text":"以書面答覆本席謝謝委員提醒事實上我們教育部國科會跟衛務部也已經就這一個部分在做內部的這些溝通我們也希望能夠建立一個更精進的一個這樣一個審查的一個機制確保能夠維護這一個學生或者所有的受試者的一個權益我想這一次的事件"},{"start":1027.83,"end":1044.463,"text":"其實是我們每一個人都要一起來努力去捍衛學生的權益當然我們也理解整個事件還有一些部分在進行調查當中但是我想我們的人權啊我們的學生的學習的權益啊真的非常的重要當他在校園裡面可能因為弱勢"},{"start":1047.205,"end":1062.795,"text":"他的意見不受重視甚至可能有利益關係利害關係導致他們的聲音沒有辦法傳出來這個真的是我們每一位在這裡的人我們都應該要一起來關注我們希望這個事件能夠有非常好的檢討來改進謝謝 謝謝部長謝謝市長謝謝部長 請回座"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":167,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（9時33分）謝謝代理主席。有請教育部鄭英耀部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：部長早。上週我們在議程安排的時候就有聽到風聲說，今天可能是部長的重要考試，萬一考不過，有沒有可能就被卓內閣放進二一名單？想請教一下部長，這個說法是不是屬實？我們有沒有機會繼續再看到您？想不想再繼續跟我們一起協作？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心我的去留。不過，我想假設性的問題，基本上我不方便回答。但是就政務官來講，我個人認為，政務官的進退要優雅、要雍容，這是我一路走來的堅持，我也不曉得委員會不會希望我留下來。"],["葛委員如鈞：我想如果不只是優雅從容，還要能夠努力的捍衛學生權益的話，當然是希望您留下來。"],["鄭部長英耀：這是無庸置疑。"],["葛委員如鈞：也不要只是把時間花在政治的議題，也不要把時間花在只是勾選哪一間學校要停止交流，如果是這樣的話，我們當然希望您留下來！但是我想，不管你是不是留下來，優雅從容之餘，也應該努力到最後一天，來捍衛學生的權益，也要檢討我們在過去有沒有哪些事情還需要加強的。"],["鄭部長英耀：這當然是肯定的。"],["葛委員如鈞：首先要請教一下部長，有關無限期休假的事件，除了您本身的去留，其實近期教育界有另外一個議論紛紛的事，就是葉丙成次長迄今請假天數已經達到72天，社群平台還有網友做一個計時器在計算他請假的天數。原本教育部有3位次長，分工非常地明確，但是我們稍微計算一下在葉次長請假期間，當中有32天教育部居然只剩下一位次長在處理所有的公務，也就是您在這個圖上面看到葉次長請假，朱次長還沒到位之前，有32天的時間只有一位次長處理所有的事，部長，您知道嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我當然知道。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以請問部長，32天算很長啦！您認為長期少一個次長的情況下，會不會影響到相關政策的推行？"],["鄭部長英耀：我非常感謝教育部的團隊，當然在人事異動，還有接任的時間會有一些時間差，這個期間教育部的……"],["葛委員如鈞：會不會影響？有沒有影響？"],["鄭部長英耀：基本上我們都希望所有政務跟政策都能夠順暢的推動。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以過去的這32天，對於事務上有沒有影響？會不會影響？我還是要肯定張廖次長一個人扛起來32天，當然葉次長請假有他的原因跟理由，32天有沒有影響到政策的推行？會不會影響？"],["鄭部長英耀：基本上我們保持對可能的影響降到最低。"],["葛委員如鈞：好啦，部長，如果您希望次長趕快銷假上班，您就要明確地表達；如果您覺得影響可以降到最低，我們是不是一位常次就好啦？可以減少納稅人的錢、不必要的支出，否則我想這樣分工的狀態，現在兩位次長，那我又要替朱次長抱不平啦！萬一之後我們的運動部成立了，次長說不定有一些人事的異動調整，會不會又出現一位次長要扛下所有的任務？接下來的這些狀況，想請教部長，未來有可能面臨的這個情況，你有沒有預先規劃？之前可能是意外，之後有沒有預先規劃？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，因為葉次長被指控洩漏、違反性平的個資，我們當然希望性平專案調查小組趕快把結果調查出來，但是因為性平小組認為必須還有很多要的求證，才會延長時間……"],["葛委員如鈞：是，部長，我打斷你，因為我們已經算過了，就這個事件的調查可以兩個月再加一、加一，所以可能四個月，之後假設有申訴的話，又再二加一、加一，所以一共可能有8個月。萬一張廖次長真的高升去當部長了，接下來很可能會有人事異動，我是要問您有沒有對這個未來的可能性做準備？"],["鄭部長英耀：對人事可能的異動，我們當然會有一些內部的討論。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以我想不要讓單一的次長工作太繁重，可能也會讓底下的部屬感到困擾。接下來還是要請教一個比較專業的議題，就是AI學程聯盟（TAICA）113年第二學期的參與學校從25所增加到55所，對此本席要予以肯定。但是近來我們有掌握到一些資訊，就是現在開放5,300個名額，實際修課的人合計2,465人，但是能夠修完課程並取得學分的人，各課程介於190人到368人之間，事實上只有四到六成。請問部長，教育部有沒有好好去了解學生沒有完成課程的原因？"],["鄭部長英耀：首先就這一個來講，我要非常感謝我們葉次長，當時在AI內閣裡面，他快速地整合清大、臺大、成大為主的AI教授，很快速地透過網路上的……我想一年後……"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝部長，這個我們都知道，我是要問您現在已經有問題發生，我也很感謝葉次長在這個計畫上……"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，能不能讓我多說一點？"],["葛委員如鈞：說一些新聞上沒有講過、您沒有講過的。"],["鄭部長英耀：我說新聞上沒講過的，簡單來講，我們當時快速地在去年9月開了五門課，有將近2,500人修課，當然，第一學期許多課在網路上，包括學生的修課等等，確實有一些學生並沒有通過，通過率只有1,322位大概等於56%到57%……"],["葛委員如鈞：不好意思，部長，我真的要打斷您，您在浪費我的時間。我現在要講的是第二學期的事，你現在還在跟我回顧第一學期……"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有，我只是……"],["葛委員如鈞：第二學期既有的25所學校裡面，高達48%將近一半選課人數呈現衰退，你們到底有沒有掌握？"],["鄭部長英耀：已經提升，跟委員報告……"],["葛委員如鈞：甚至我要繼續講，以臺師大為例，六門課程裡面有五門修課人數是零，最後通過的人全部是掛蛋的，兩間學校全部是零人，你現在跟我講什麼第一學期！"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有，跟委員……"],["葛委員如鈞：我要問的是學生為什麼越選越少？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們在進步中……"],["葛委員如鈞：為什麼退選的人越來越多，你跟我說葉丙成老師好棒。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們在進步中，第二學期開始我們就收4,400位幾乎快double的學生修課，通過有3,300位。"],["葛委員如鈞：我現在數字都整理給你了，就開始在下降，有沒有去了解原因？"],["鄭部長英耀：本來這門課就希望說……"],["葛委員如鈞：是不是太難，還是什麼原因？為什麼有這麼多既有的學校都是下降的？"],["鄭部長英耀：當然我不排斥有部分的學校可能太難，但是也有可能的原因，像臺師大的AI老師也慢慢在豐富，所以他們可能就自己開課。本來我們希望透過網路整合大學好的資源，能夠去彌補許多學校可能沒有AI的專任老師，如果學校已經有的，當然學生就近實體上課比較方便……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以部長，我很肯定葉次長當時提出這個計畫，現在持續地擴增，他現在請假，我們也先理解他，但是現在這個計畫又面臨到新的挑戰，修課人數在下降，既有25所學校裡面還有人掛蛋的，臺師大是零人完課，您知道嗎？您的理由是說臺師大已經有自己的AI課程，那我們要TAICA做什麼呢？是不是開始造成學校額外重複的行政困擾？它有沒有補助？補助完了，零人修課，這樣可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們就希望臺、成、清、交老師的能量能夠雨露均霑，讓全國所有的大學生也能夠受惠。"],["葛委員如鈞：我想新學期8月1號展開，也希望部長趕快，不管您是優雅、從容，還是怎麼樣，努力到最後，我們還是希望TAICA課程要持續優化，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：接下來，我們還是要關注一下令人震驚跟心痛的臺師大女足抽血案事件，請教部長、國科會蘇副主委和衛福部劉司長，請代理主席讓蘇副主委跟劉司長就備詢臺。"],["主席：請相關部會首長就備詢臺。"],["葛委員如鈞：我借用一點時間，首先，剛剛柯志恩委員在質詢的時候，有提到抽查的狀況，結果教育部其實並沒有仔細的講。我們這裡取得教育部IRB所謂的查核狀況，這個案子其實是3到7年的時間，111年就有抽查到國立臺灣師範大學，當時抽查的狀況怎麼樣？如果當時有用心抽查，我們很有可能提前發現這個案件的問題，請教111年抽查的情況如何？為什麼會讓這個案子還留下來？"],["廖司長高賢：報告委員，我們抽查的項目主要是針對他們整體學校IRB運作機制跟相關執行的狀況，針對個案異常的狀況，有些時候真的必須要實地抽查才會……"],["葛委員如鈞：我幫你整理啦！就是有抽查，但這個案子沒有抽查到，我想這還是要檢討一下，這個抽查變成逐具形式，而且抽查學校變成不定期查核學校，接下來查核的頻率、頻次、內容、深度是不是要做調整？我想這個可能要檢討。另外也請教兩位，教育部與國科會對於這個案件知曉的時間點，請教副主委跟部長，這個案子知曉的時間點是何時？"],["蘇副主任委員振綱：這個案子我們是113年11月28日。"],["葛委員如鈞：部長，我想11月28號陳培瑜委員揭發此事，報導得知，我唸一下媒體刊出學生的說法，細節我真的看得非常難過，就不多唸了。在這樣的文字內容下，我們都完全可以理解，他還有抽血暈眩的狀況，我自己抽血也是會暈眩，我非常理解這樣一個無助的狀態，非常恐怖，也非常可怕，甚至可能會產生危險。請問在這種情況下，所謂的研究受試者，同時也是師生關係的學生，他能夠向誰求助，到底能用什麼管道來救濟？我想請教部長，遇到這樣的困難想要尋求救濟，他可以找誰？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想在抽血的過程裡面，醫護人員的訓練必須要再加強，也就是說學生……"],["葛委員如鈞：部長，我講的是結構性的，醫護人員可能是外部請來的，我可以直接告訴您答案啦，我們詢問學生要找什麼救濟管道？教育部給的答復是學生可以聯繫研究計畫的主持人，您覺得這樣可以解決問題嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想學生當下可以表達堅定的立場，是不是改天再抽，或者等他舒服的時候，等於延一段時間再抽？因為以他當時在抽的時候，事實上人是非常不舒服的，這個情況下，他是可以在整個研究計畫裡面……"],["葛委員如鈞：部長，我想您可能還是沒有了解整件事情的嚴重性，這些學生到底是不是真的知情、同意？是不是有可能在校園裡面權力關係不對等的情況之下？不是說今天不想抽，可不可以明天抽就沒事了，他有可能一直都不想抽啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：就IRB在研議這個倫理……"],["葛委員如鈞：我想要講的就是，計畫主持人絕對有可能不是一個合適的救助管道，本席認為此案之所以經年累月地累積，到最後要求助我們立法委員來處理，就是沒有一個隱密、獨立、通暢的救濟管道，沒有單一的申訴窗口。所以本席在這裡具體要求，教育部必須要針對主管IRB審查的人體研究計畫，設立永久的單一申訴窗口，同時這個申訴窗口必須登載在教育部網站，也必須載明在知情同意書上，請問部長能不能當場承諾這件事？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想這一個我們教育部當然責無旁貸，但我更希望學校也能夠建立內稽內控，包括學生反應的一個單一窗口，譬如類似研發處就可以做……"],["葛委員如鈞：對不起，部長，我還是要讓您知道……"],["鄭部長英耀：譬如說這個學生本來就可以決定退出這些研究計畫……"],["葛委員如鈞：這些專案往上是研究計畫主持人，他是利益關係人，學校本身是不是利益關係人？有沒有可能……"],["鄭部長英耀：學校整個就校長來講，他……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以我想教育部作為最高主導機關……"],["鄭部長英耀：教育部沒有問題，我們一定會……感謝委員的建議，我們會來設。"],["葛委員如鈞：很好，那就當場允諾。"],["鄭部長英耀：但我們更希望學校也應該要建立……"],["葛委員如鈞：大家一起努力，我們都同意。"],["鄭部長英耀：對，從學校到教育部，我們希望建立更健全的體制，更能保護學生所有的受教權。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝部長，今天時間有限，我還有幾點希望提出。首先，在做相關審查的時候，審查IRB的內容，我們發現其實簡易型審查是主要的，而且我們檢查以後發現組成IRB的人，樣態五花八門，IRB的組成成員有法師、有里長、有常見的行政人員，如果普通的簡易案件直接就通過了，那還好，但如果是有比較高風險的人體研究計畫，很可能會送到醫院這裡來進行，但是也有可能不會。所以本席希望具體要求，也呼籲教育部長和衛福部的司長，能不能共同研議未來採用一般程序審查的人體試驗研究計畫，應該要由學校的IRB和醫療院所的IRB來共同審查？","剛剛提到抽血次數的問題，也可能是因為兩個分案送到不同的地方審查，學校覺得這裡只抽1次，醫院也覺得這裡只抽1次，可是事實上同一批人一天可能就變成抽2次，如果沒有共同審查的話，很可能會縱放其實應該要嚴格審查的專案。能不能就此部分進行研議，因為有跨部會，3個月內以書面答復本席？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，事實上我們教育部、國科會跟衛福部也已經就這部分在做內部溝通，也希望能夠建立更精進的審查機制，確保能夠維護學生或者所有受試者的權益。"],["葛委員如鈞：這次的事件其實是每個人都要一起來努力，去捍衛學生的權益，當然我們也理解整個事件還有部分在調查中，但是我想我們的人權、學生的學習權益真的非常重要。當他們在校園裡面可能因為弱勢，意見不受重視，甚至可能有利益關係、利害關係，導致他們的聲音沒有辦法傳出來，這是我們在這裡的每一位都應該要一起來關注，希望這個事件能夠非常好地檢討改進。謝謝部長、謝謝司長。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝部長，請回座。"],["主席（葛委員如鈞）：接下來有請劉書彬委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-18","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","劉書彬","萬美玲","陳秀寳","張雅琳","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","范雲","李坤城","黃捷","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","陳培瑜","葉元之","黃國昌","高金素梅","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":3,"meetingDate":["2025-08-07"],"gazette_id":"1147202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長列席就「全國中小學教師人力不足現況與具體因應對策」進行專題報告並備\n質詢；二、邀請教育部部長、國家科學及技術委員會、衛生福利部列席就「如何強化研究計畫之\n人體研究倫理把關機制，以保障人權，捍衛科研價值，並避免類似台師大女足抽血違反研究倫理\n之案件再次發生」進行專題報告，並備質詢；三、邀請教育部部長、行政院人事行政總處及行政\n院主計總處列席就「9月9日運動部成立籌備情形與後續推動規劃」進行專題報告並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147202_00002"}}}