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123.256, \"end\": 123.276, \"score\": 1.0}]}, {\"start\": 124.256, \"end\": 152.535, \"text\": \"為什麼不進教育現場教育現場發生了什麼問題讓這些修了教育學程拿了證甚至可能是本科本系本專任學校所謂師大啦張師大啦這些學校的人都不願意去當老師我認為這個是我們真的要一起面對我不認為是只有教育部的問題我認為所有立法委員所有區域立委聽到民意的都要一起面對關心教育的人都要一起面對所以我很想問到底找不到老師是為什麼當然我們辦公室自己做了研究等一下跟部長討論第二個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 124.256, \"end\": 124.476, \"score\": 0.759}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 124.476, \"end\": 124.716, \"score\": 0.72}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 124.716, \"end\": 124.857, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"育\", \"start\": 124.857, \"end\": 125.397, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 125.397, \"end\": 125.517, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"育\", \"start\": 125.517, \"end\": 125.957, \"score\": 0.583}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 125.957, \"end\": 126.057, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 1199.787, \"end\": 1199.947, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"具\", \"start\": 1199.947, \"end\": 1200.067, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 1200.067, \"end\": 1200.247, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"繼\"}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"犧\"}, {\"word\": \"牲\", \"start\": 1200.247, \"end\": 1200.267, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 1203.359, \"end\": 1218.564, \"text\": \"然後在這個過程當中他們可能真的不清楚自己什麼權益被犧牲了因為從小沒有人告訴他們原來那個是你的權益我再說一次從小在那個環境威權體制下長大的選手他什麼時候開了視野\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 1203.359, \"end\": 1203.459, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 1203.459, \"end\": 1203.579, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1203.579, \"end\": 1204.019, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 1204.019, \"end\": 1204.439, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 1204.439, \"end\": 1205.3, \"score\": 0.996}, 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1218.564, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 1220.265, \"end\": 1234.661, \"text\": \"什麼時候有人幫他打開那個眼界他才知道說原來我被犧牲了就如陳潔倩說她是到日本去念書她才知道簡齊生說她到英國還是到國外去遊學的時候在跟外國同學聊天才發現抽血是不對的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 1220.265, \"end\": 1220.706, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 1220.706, \"end\": 1220.866, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1220.866, \"end\": 1220.986, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 1220.986, \"end\": 1221.326, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"幫\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 1221.326, \"end\": 1221.827, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"打\", \"start\": 1221.827, \"end\": 1222.267, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1222.267, \"end\": 1222.468, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"眼\", \"start\": 1222.468, \"end\": 1222.708, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"界\", \"start\": 1222.708, \"end\": 1223.369, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 1223.369, \"end\": 1223.529, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 1223.529, \"end\": 1223.669, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 1223.669, \"end\": 1223.769, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 1223.769, \"end\": 1224.21, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 1224.21, \"end\": 1224.47, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1224.47, \"end\": 1224.55, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 1224.55, \"end\": 1224.95, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"犧\"}, {\"word\": \"牲\", \"start\": 1224.95, \"end\": 1225.171, \"score\": 0.727}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 1225.171, \"end\": 1225.551, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1225.551, \"end\": 1225.691, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 1225.691, \"end\": 1225.831, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"潔\"}, {\"word\": \"倩\", \"start\": 1225.831, \"end\": 1226.592, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"她\", \"start\": 1226.592, \"end\": 1226.752, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1226.752, \"end\": 1226.853, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 1226.853, \"end\": 1227.033, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"日\", \"start\": 1227.033, \"end\": 1227.153, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 1227.153, \"end\": 1227.313, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 1227.313, \"end\": 1227.453, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"念\", \"start\": 1227.453, \"end\": 1227.734, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"她\", \"start\": 1227.734, \"end\": 1227.874, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 1227.874, \"end\": 1228.034, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 1228.034, \"end\": 1228.194, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 1228.194, \"end\": 1228.995, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"簡\"}, {\"word\": \"齊\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 1228.995, \"end\": 1229.375, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"她\", \"start\": 1229.375, \"end\": 1229.516, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 1229.516, \"end\": 1229.896, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"英\", \"start\": 1229.896, \"end\": 1230.437, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1230.437, \"end\": 1230.557, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 1230.557, \"end\": 1230.857, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 1230.857, \"end\": 1230.977, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 1230.977, \"end\": 1231.117, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"遊\"}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 1231.117, \"end\": 1231.498, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1231.498, \"end\": 1231.558, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 1231.558, \"end\": 1231.758, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1231.758, \"end\": 1232.699, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 1232.699, \"end\": 1232.919, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 1232.919, \"end\": 1233.26, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 1233.26, \"end\": 1233.42, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 1233.42, \"end\": 1233.52, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"聊\", \"start\": 1233.52, \"end\": 1233.64, \"score\": 0.724}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 1233.64, \"end\": 1233.78, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 1233.78, \"end\": 1234.181, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"抽\", \"start\": 1234.181, \"end\": 1234.341, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"血\", \"start\": 1234.341, \"end\": 1234.461, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1234.461, \"end\": 1234.581, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1234.581, \"end\": 1234.641, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1234.641, \"end\": 1234.661, \"score\": 0.001}]}, {\"start\": 1237.171, \"end\": 1263.564, \"text\": \"而這樣的現場可能就在我剛剛說的您說是縫隙我說是地獄當中被犧牲第六點全國運動會學生綜合型運動賽事學生運動聯賽之規劃執行之輔導這些聯賽都跟體育班有關都跟選手有關第二項各級優秀競爭運動教練之與選手之選拔四級培育之規劃執行輔導及考核通通都在競技運動室部長你現在知道我為什麼那麼擔心害怕焦慮了嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 1237.171, \"end\": 1237.371, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1237.371, \"end\": 1238.112, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 1238.112, \"end\": 1238.272, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 1238.272, \"end\": 1238.492, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1238.492, \"end\": 1238.652, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1238.652, \"end\": 1238.792, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1238.792, \"end\": 1239.372, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1239.372, \"end\": 1239.552, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 1239.552, \"end\": 1239.932, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": 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1454.235, \"text\": \"這個很可怕我剛剛已經實現說了有查才被發現那更何況那些沒有查的會出什麼事情7月15號我們辦公室持續跟教育部人事處開會這件事情可以怎麼做很開心教育部給我們非常積極的回覆說可以做系統跟後台查詢的改良這個事情我們會繼續追查我們希望教育部可以承諾在年底以前完成不適任人員清查監督資訊系統的改良\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 1431.563, \"end\": 1431.703, \"score\": 0.52}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 1431.703, \"end\": 1431.843, \"score\": 0.679}, {\"word\": \"怕\", \"start\": 1431.843, \"end\": 1432.544, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1432.544, \"end\": 1432.644, \"score\": 0.664}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 1432.644, \"end\": 1433.444, \"score\": 0.682}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 1433.444, \"end\": 1433.664, \"score\": 0.559}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1433.664, \"end\": 1433.944, \"score\": 0.633}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 1433.944, \"end\": 1434.345, \"score\": 0.736}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 1434.345, \"end\": 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00:00:50,523\n很可愛的梗圖而已但是我要跟部長說很無奈這個是在教育現場學校為了徵老師連老師自己都要來做梗圖徵老師才有可能吸睛才有可能被關注才有可能在網路上有流量讓更多除背中的老師看見來這裡應徵\n\n4\n00:00:53,125 --> 00:01:07,930\n右邊這張圖呢是幾年前親子天下寫的文章說如果可以去護國神山誰要當代理教師而那一年建中發生什麼事情資訊教師找不到但是當時在爭這個資訊教師的時候他還刮胡要兼任圖書館主任\n\n5\n00:01:09,551 --> 00:01:24,186\n那後來到PTT上去發文等到招了13招部長13招才找到人我沒有要講個案部長我再一次強調我沒有要講個案大家都看到教師荒的問題我只是舉其中兩個例子下一張\n\n6\n00:01:25,748 --> 00:01:42,166\n那這個新聞截圖呢其實教育部一直都告訴我們你們有相關這些數字剛剛那個羅廷偉委員在問的時候部長甚至還談到後端師資培育的部分我都聽進去了我們來看一下如果部長用你的邏輯來看現在的數字有問題還是教育部的理解有落差\n\n7\n00:01:43,047 --> 00:02:03,276\n教育部告訴我們新教師六成任教職多元配套確保教學人力這是教育部的新聞稿可是我們看到幾個問題第一個如果按照這個邏輯每一年所取得教師證的人你們認為會有六成甚至越來越提升進入教育現場那我們就要問三成多那四成到哪裡去了\n\n8\n00:02:04,256 --> 00:02:32,535\n為什麼不進教育現場教育現場發生了什麼問題讓這些修了教育學程拿了證甚至可能是本科本系本專任學校所謂師大啦張師大啦這些學校的人都不願意去當老師我認為這個是我們真的要一起面對我不認為是只有教育部的問題我認為所有立法委員所有區域立委聽到民意的都要一起面對關心教育的人都要一起面對所以我很想問到底找不到老師是為什麼當然我們辦公室自己做了研究等一下跟部長討論第二個\n\n9\n00:02:36,058 --> 00:02:55,698\n師資儲備轉換為現場教職員的轉換率其實是非常非常的低的如果按照這個邏輯大家都不來當老師所以當然就出現教師荒而且以前是只有代理代課教師荒現在連正式教師也出現教師荒我相信您的幕僚一定有給您數字而且今天已經來到八月多了\n\n10\n00:02:56,138 --> 00:03:09,186\n各個縣市開圈應徵報到的狀況你可能也大略有所掌握我必須要說這些數字可能都很驚人教育部目前為止有沒有因應之道我等一下想請部長一起回答下一張\n\n11\n00:03:11,158 --> 00:03:25,637\n我想要講的是一定有一些原因導致於大家不想當正式老師也不想當代理老師到底教育部這幾年的解決方案如同部長你說的你沒有解決方案可是落地之後到底發生了什麼事情\n\n12\n00:03:26,118 --> 00:03:42,937\n我們來看這個數字這個數字是你們給我的部長我們辦公室跟你們所知我跟部長討論一下最左邊這一張呢是依照教育部的統計資料國小教師的總人數越來越多當然是有很多正式老師從代理代課老師上岸變正式老師可是教育現場一樣出現另外一個問題中間這張投影片紅色的字\n\n13\n00:03:47,102 --> 00:03:49,503\n從110學年度5594人到112學年度8999人這些紅色的數字是所謂的無證代理教室\n\n14\n00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:23,577\n部長無證這件事情我並沒有要指控所有無證的老師都不專業無證的老師沒有熱情搞不好這些無證的代理教師比現場有證九任的老師還要有熱情還要有專業可是在現在教師荒的情況之下很多縣市很多學校不得不打開門十招二十招三十招拜託\n\n15\n00:04:24,358 --> 00:04:47,996\n只要有人願意進學校教書就算沒有證他大學畢業他就可以進來而部長110112上升了將近60%欸我們的家長如果看到這個數字他會問部長我的小孩是被沒有證的老師教喔你們要怎麼保證教學品質你們要怎麼保障孩子的受教權益我認為所有家長都會焦慮\n\n16\n00:04:50,043 --> 00:05:10,043\n這個數字可能你的幕僚沒有讓你知道但是我們這個是透過公開的公文所知不找這個數字我真的很害怕我們都是來自教育基層我們都在基層待過所以我們一定可以想見無證的狀況跟有證的狀況會發生截然不同的困境但這個困境我們教育部的因應對策是什麼\n\n17\n00:05:11,404 --> 00:05:33,305\n這也是真的讓我很擔心的吳政我剛剛講吳政我就不再多說了吳政的狀況我相信部長應該知道我們辦公室試著跟非常非常非常多地方教師跟學會跟工會也跟家長討論部長我想要提出一些可能的解方因為今天早上到目前為止有非常多人都跟你講了他們遇到的困境他們從地方收集到的意見\n\n18\n00:05:34,486 --> 00:05:49,425\n有一件事情其實教育部從108課綱上路到現在六七年了一直在逃避面對的問題但是我認為從潘部長到您一定聽過有現場老師告訴你教育部要不要修園而法\n\n19\n00:05:50,717 --> 00:05:57,166\n原額法有機會動教育現場的困境才能解決因為部長他是一個基生誕誕生期的問題我解釋給您聽如果我今天在教育現場因為108課綱所有的高中老師他額外備課的那些時間你們都沒有算原額給他\n\n20\n00:06:08,101 --> 00:06:28,828\n幫忙cover行政的時間也沒有算時數給他所以現場的老師不僅行政增量他們連教學要備課的時間你們都沒有算給他所以所有的老師在準備那些高中為了應付大學考試額外108多出來那些課程都算入他的時數可是你們沒有多人給他所以每一個老師的超時你們怎麼解決400塊500塊終點費解決\n\n21\n00:06:32,984 --> 00:06:39,908\n不是錢的問題部長每一個人都有自己的生活而老師現在幾乎超超超超時上班6點8點9點10點\n\n22\n00:06:42,188 --> 00:07:02,449\n只要有熱情有愛對孩子有負責任心的老師都會願意留下來但長期以來耗損的是這些還有愛還有心留在現場的老師所有的老師都告訴我們你源而法跟著108課綱的改變沒有做出改變才是造成現在沒有人敢再走進教育現場最大的原因我知道源而法一動就會動到錢\n\n23\n00:07:06,155 --> 00:07:34,337\n去年才化法又通過了很多錢會到地方去部長我拜託你我要跟你說很多這些錢是地方政府必須要去負擔的教育部要拿出你的肩膀拿出你的勇氣告訴這些執政縣市首長你花在教育端的錢如同剛羅廷偉委員說的不能信你就不能信不能站你就不能站不能逃你就不能逃所以未來各個執政縣市要不要去面對跟你教育部\n\n24\n00:07:34,758 --> 00:07:43,199\n坐下來討論原額法我認為是要的這件事情才能根本的解決現場教師荒的問題\n\n25\n00:07:44,702 --> 00:08:09,487\n行政再怎麼減量各部會還是發公文給學校行政再怎麼減量家長還是半夜打電話給老師行政再怎麼減量孩子的身心狀況在現場還是需要所有老師一起接觸更不要講現場還有太多不適應的老師是在拖垮現場認真的老師所以如果我們可以讓現場工作人他們合理的減低他們的工作量透過增加員額這件事情真的才能根本的解決\n\n26\n00:08:10,547 --> 00:08:22,339\n第二個回過頭來教師的薪資調整這件事情我認為一定很多人跟你講過了部長但是我知道教育部經費有限署長你讓我先講完再跟部長報告好不好\n\n27\n00:08:24,751 --> 00:08:49,600\n我們非常負責任想要提出解方因為指責大家都會可是如果你真心我們辦公室是真的真心想要跟教育部站在一起跟老師們站在一起跟家長站在一起繼而跟學生站在一起所有的困境是我剛剛講的現場的人都要承擔最後是教育部要來承擔回來談提升教職員薪資這件事情我們認為現在的教職員薪資確實要好好商議\n\n28\n00:08:50,941 --> 00:09:00,042\n從校長到主任到現場老師到代理代課老師甚至連特教助理員大家都是因為錢的問題可是現在面對\n\n29\n00:09:01,778 --> 00:09:23,273\n各式各樣社會環境變動經濟因素變動的關係都導致於薪資這件事情真的不是誘因啦部長好再來落實行政減量這個很多人都講過我就不再講提升教師支持系統有非常多的老師一直在告訴我們家庭教育出了問題所有很多不該不該歸老師扛的通通怪老師\n\n30\n00:09:24,654 --> 00:09:47,155\n孩子們的困境也要找老師家長不會教小孩也要找老師我要談的是整個行政系統的支援真的需要部長您大迫大力有非常多人一定給過您建言如何引進新的思維如何找一兩所關鍵學校開始試辦所謂大迫大力\n\n31\n00:09:47,936 --> 00:10:05,195\n我認為這是大家對部長您的期待所以我花了這麼多力氣談解方其實最重要還是回到原額這件事情所以我要提醒財化法下去之後現在你們已經在編預算了我不確定你們編的預算是有財化法新版還是沒有財化法新版\n\n32\n00:10:05,876 --> 00:10:30,576\n可是我們都知道很多地方的老師的薪水要地方來支付很多地方教育的支出要地方政府來支付我不確定教育部有沒有開始在事權分立這件事情跟縣市政府討論如果有請拜託把我這些談的事情做下來跟地方政府好好說哪些該中央出的哪些該地方負責的哪些該地方去監督的哪些該中央政府有法規的我認為\n\n33\n00:10:32,097 --> 00:10:40,555\n所有的推脫最後受害的是小孩是家長是老師所以我們辦公室很負責任提出解放拜託部長好嗎\n\n34\n00:10:42,396 --> 00:11:01,425\n謝謝委員的這個不但是發現問題理解問題而且還有一些具體的一些建議我想都非常有價值我們教育部一定會把這些來跟地方看特別剛才提到的顏額就是我們現在的一個小學的顏額大概1.65偏鄉我們是給2.0國中是這個2.2偏鄉是給3.0\n\n35\n00:11:08,248 --> 00:11:21,277\n那這樣是不是能夠支撐到我們現在的大家對教育包括人才培育包括整個社會的一個變遷上所面臨的挑戰包含薪水等等的我想它是一個整體結構上我想我們會認真地很嚴肅地來跟\n\n36\n00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:42,980\n地方來一起來共同來思考看怎麼樣能夠形成一個支持的力量謝謝部長原額法的部分我們辦公室很願意積極做下來邀請教育部跟人總組總一起討論因為這件事情是國家根本的問題如果原額不解決我真的不知道現場還有多少人願意留下來\n\n37\n00:11:43,841 --> 00:12:04,571\n接下來我要談教育部最近幾個公共政策造成非常多基層的困擾我相信很多委員問過我就不再贅述但是我想要提醒教育部的整個系統裡面有沒有人去理解到社會溝通基層溝通非常的重要到底發布消息的管道哪裡出了問題到底從中央的美意到了地方變成強迫這件事情中間的落差是什麼\n\n38\n00:12:05,131 --> 00:12:30,082\n所以我們都看到你們的說明但我想我就不再贅述這件事情要拜託部長到底我們在跟地方政府溝通出了什麼問題好嗎所以我們就從最近的一個政策來看我等一下來談體育部未來運動部的事情這個是一個關於署長的專訪體育署署長的專訪談到所謂的運動部9月9號掛牌倒數大家最關心的至少是我們辦公室最關心的體育班轉型跟校園開放\n\n39\n00:12:32,844 --> 00:13:00,345\n這邊體育署署長在受訪的時候說我們未來要跟國教署合作希望未來一個禮拜裡面從兩天三天四天第七節課可以轉型成運動社團課那這個事情當然就引起很多爭議我們就不再贅述可是我要講的是這個文章看起來讓非常多關心體育班政策的轉型的人問我說這個是跟我們體育班轉型有關係嗎我想要請部長\n\n40\n00:13:00,927 --> 00:13:01,357\n回應一下\n\n41\n00:13:02,953 --> 00:13:29,889\n一個純粹基本上的精神就是說希望說我們的學生小朋友國中小學生不是每天上課排的滿滿的應該讓他們有一些比如說第七節第一年級有一次的有一天的時間讓他們能夠運動社團或者到操場去跑然後中高年級一個禮拜也許有兩天不要每天把課程塞得滿滿的那這個部分呢\n\n42\n00:13:33,195 --> 00:13:54,536\n國教署還編了擔心等於說事實上這些本來他們學校都有排政客那我們希望能不能轉化為一個比較運動休閒有益於青少年小朋友的身心健康本來他是一個好事那而且教育部國教署也編有一些如果你社團的話你要推動幾多不一樣的\n\n43\n00:13:55,417 --> 00:14:11,482\n這個社團是對學生是有價值的但是可能學校這個部分沒有這方面專長的老師他還可以給一些聘兼任的老師來指導社團或者體育各方面的運動的活動我想他的這個想法是\n\n44\n00:14:13,223 --> 00:14:28,589\n好的而且我們是鼓勵地方也跟22個縣市教育局處所長都談過是剛開始是用這個鼓勵的我們總是要學的東西不可能老師全部教完教滿塞滿我們總要給學生有一個不一樣的一個\n\n45\n00:14:32,591 --> 00:14:42,183\n部長你一定不知道我剛剛的擔心從何而來主席你也歡迎你一起看這張投影片的最下面兩句我沒有框起來但是我們的署長是怎麼說的為什麼會讓人誤會以為這個政策跟你未來運動部要做的體育班轉型掛鉤了呢最後這兩句說\n\n46\n00:14:50,936 --> 00:15:09,924\n我們的學校專任運動教練考核在國小那一塊把成績歸零要求這些專任運動教練去做社團推動運動推動到時候不只是我們的體育班三點之後如果大家都去參與運動那體育班就沒有存在的必要了學生可以回歸正常的班級上課每個小孩都可以接觸運動社團跟運動訓練\n\n47\n00:15:12,345 --> 00:15:23,271\n意思就是說看起來是國教署的事情可是最後拉到體育署甚至拉到未來的運動部對於體育班的正義轉型這件事情我們怎麼能夠不擔心部長\n\n48\n00:15:24,485 --> 00:15:50,544\n是這段話但是我剛剛非常尊重部長我讓部長您把剛剛第七集的事情好好地講完了全國人民也都聽見了但是我要講的是我非常非常非常我用了三個非常擔心現在教育部裡面會不會很多幕僚搞不清楚狀況幫忙莫名其妙為未來的運動部背了一個政策的鍋而未來運動部跟教育部在體育班的分工\n\n49\n00:15:51,872 --> 00:16:12,132\n他會出現一個多大的落差我們來看下一張頭影片體育班的存在說在某些地方有需要我們試著從六都跟家庭經濟狀況比較好的這些社區縣市開始做如果可以成功轉型就讓他轉型我真的不懂部長我從小是經濟狀況極差極差極差的小孩\n\n50\n00:16:16,601 --> 00:16:25,127\n而我的小孩現在因為我跟爸爸的努力他們可以算是家庭經濟狀況好的小孩請問家庭經濟狀況如何跟一個孩子要不要去參加體育班產生關聯\n\n51\n00:16:26,894 --> 00:16:45,531\n我們還是用過去黨國時代用衛福社福的想法在看待體育班請問他們要怎麼走出奪牌主義而目前為止我不知道這個鍋誰要背是你們教育部未來要背還是運動部要背如果都沒有人要背那我不知道未來這些體育班的小孩還要繼續如何的為國家犧牲他們黃金珍貴的學習學術科目的時間就只是為了幫國家奪牌\n\n52\n00:16:51,816 --> 00:17:16,506\n過去已經有很多選手站出來告訴你們不是只有專家學者在告訴你們連陳傑憲都當面跟賴總統說過體育班要轉型不要再消耗選手了可是在幾次的公開體育署長的受訪裡面我不確定署長們跟部長您報告但是我看到痛心就是這樣剛剛在教師荒的部分我覺得我非常的平和可是講到這個體育班我真的要問我們還要繼續犧牲多少小孩\n\n53\n00:17:20,427 --> 00:17:39,906\n而現在竟然講出跟家庭經濟狀況比較好的這些社區開始做那你把我們偏鄉家庭經濟狀況不好的小孩他就該死嗎他就該被放在體育班裡面嗎就只是因為體育班的教練會去找錢找球衣找球鞋然後讓他們放學後有人幫他們做客服所以他們就留在隊上面為學校奪牌為縣市奪牌未來為全國奪牌\n\n54\n00:17:43,390 --> 00:18:05,294\n部長我當面跟您討論體育班的事情討論過非常非常多次講到我都覺得會不會你覺得我很煩但是我們沒有在幫孩子發聲的時候會不會九月運動部成立之後有更多的小孩就在兩個部會沒有講清楚情況下被犧牲了跟委員報告我對體育班的看法跟委員是一致的\n\n55\n00:18:08,922 --> 00:18:26,504\n我們不希望我們的小朋友從小學就讀體育班他只有打球運動事實上我們希望他在學科的學習在整個身心的發展是一個更正常的更全面性的為什麼今天運動部的成立我覺得他是非常有價值的\n\n56\n00:18:27,785 --> 00:18:41,336\n等一下部長我跟你說我完全認同你剛剛講的學科學習跟身心發展對於一個想要投身於運動的孩子來說非常重要二全國人民真的都非常期待運動部我跟你一樣但我現在要講的不是這個大的命題我要講的是\n\n57\n00:18:45,720 --> 00:19:10,498\n部長我要拜託你一定要密切的跟體育署現在未來要升格成運動部剩下不到一個月的時間了這中間的討論到底哪一些歸你們教育部在未來未來哪一些歸運動部而中間現在在實務現場可能產生的縫隙我們大人看起來叫做縫隙在資源不足社區環境不足的小孩面前那叫地獄\n\n58\n00:19:12,315 --> 00:19:39,775\n我必須要用這麼嚴正的話因為我在偏鄉陪小孩的時間超過十年我要再講一次我們大人我們有資源站在台北講這些話的大人叫做縫隙對於每天在社區在原生家庭裡面被教練逼著走的那些奪牌那些小孩來說那個縫隙叫地獄部長所以我只是要告訴您在相關資訊的銜接上一定出了問題才會導致於我們看下一張投影片現在我們手上拿到的運動部的規劃是長這樣\n\n59\n00:19:42,536 --> 00:20:00,267\n競技運動司部長第八項學校體育班制度跟學校專任運動教練政策是規劃法規研修及督導他被放在競技運動司欸有沒有完全是我剛剛講的那一段這些小孩繼續被當工具人繼續犧牲\n\n60\n00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:18,564\n然後在這個過程當中他們可能真的不清楚自己什麼權益被犧牲了因為從小沒有人告訴他們原來那個是你的權益我再說一次從小在那個環境威權體制下長大的選手他什麼時候開了視野\n\n61\n00:20:20,265 --> 00:20:34,661\n什麼時候有人幫他打開那個眼界他才知道說原來我被犧牲了就如陳潔倩說她是到日本去念書她才知道簡齊生說她到英國還是到國外去遊學的時候在跟外國同學聊天才發現抽血是不對的\n\n62\n00:20:37,171 --> 00:21:03,564\n而這樣的現場可能就在我剛剛說的您說是縫隙我說是地獄當中被犧牲第六點全國運動會學生綜合型運動賽事學生運動聯賽之規劃執行之輔導這些聯賽都跟體育班有關都跟選手有關第二項各級優秀競爭運動教練之與選手之選拔四級培育之規劃執行輔導及考核通通都在競技運動室部長你現在知道我為什麼那麼擔心害怕焦慮了嗎\n\n63\n00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:18,837\n他一旦一直被框在競技運動私底下我們就不可能走出奪牌思維工具人思維這是很現實的因為業務分工一下去他就是長成像這樣對不對部長\n\n64\n00:21:21,428 --> 00:21:40,806\n我想跟委員報告我們運動部的一個成立事實上就是希望全民健康運動成為一種生活的態度然後確保全國人的一個健康那我們看到運動部其實也讓我看到了另外一個機會就是我們看到史丹佛大學去年的奧運他一個\n\n65\n00:21:41,687 --> 00:22:10,999\n史丹佛大學的一個這個名校有學生拿了三十幾塊的金銀銅牌這也是我們看到從過去只是強調少數精英的一個運動人才培育我們希望把pool做大讓全民都運動全民事實上包含我們今天所有在會場裡邊所有的不管是官員或者我民意代表有很多人的運動也非常好但是他們沒有選擇往運動那個方向我們總是希望\n\n66\n00:22:11,559 --> 00:22:32,101\n大家是健康的但是我們未來的為國家能夠爭取榮耀的已經不是那一個體育班而已他可能是有更多的人我想委員剛才所非常熱心這個關切的我們一定會來深切的來檢討看怎麼樣讓他在未來的一個體育署\n\n67\n00:22:33,202 --> 00:22:47,455\n體育組改為運動部的時候能夠真正的能夠照我們的一個理想能夠來逐步來實現謝謝部長那個未及答覆的麻煩就書面答覆陳培委員還沒有有拜託再給我一下下拜託\n\n68\n00:22:48,456 --> 00:22:48,836\n謝謝委員提醒這是我們應該做的\n\n69\n00:23:12,099 --> 00:23:14,160\n我們之前在台中市棒球體育班大規模性侵之後我們要求教育部要做不適任人員清查制度的破口\n\n70\n00:23:33,545 --> 00:23:50,399\n我們要求你們去做這個事情結果回覆出來的一次一次回覆目前確實透過普查查出有35個人是所謂的不適任可是如果沒有去查這些人都還在教育現場但非常可怕的是目前還有台中市新竹縣新竹市南投縣雲林縣沒有回覆\n\n71\n00:23:51,563 --> 00:24:14,235\n這個很可怕我剛剛已經實現說了有查才被發現那更何況那些沒有查的會出什麼事情7月15號我們辦公室持續跟教育部人事處開會這件事情可以怎麼做很開心教育部給我們非常積極的回覆說可以做系統跟後台查詢的改良這個事情我們會繼續追查我們希望教育部可以承諾在年底以前完成不適任人員清查監督資訊系統的改良\n\n72\n00:24:17,837 --> 00:24:39,358\n第二个定期公告教育部所属跟各县市高中以下学校不适任人员查询的状况还有部长我刚跟你说的迟迟不回的台中市新竹县新竹市南投县云林县请你们继续追踪这些资料可以再跟我们办公室索取好吗好谢谢谢谢主席谢谢陈培宇委员的质询官员请回座\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n349\t8036\t陳培宇委員質詢好 謝謝主席 有請部長請鄭部長備質詢 謝謝\n17096\t32625\t委員好部長辛苦了從早上站到現在真的辛苦了我今天問的第一個問題其實叫失慌已經很多人問過了但是我有幾個數字幾個現場的現象然後也跟非常多老師討論我想要反映給部長左邊這張圖部長可能以為是\n33826\t50523\t很可愛的梗圖而已但是我要跟部長說很無奈這個是在教育現場學校為了徵老師連老師自己都要來做梗圖徵老師才有可能吸睛才有可能被關注才有可能在網路上有流量讓更多除背中的老師看見來這裡應徵\n53125\t67930\t右邊這張圖呢是幾年前親子天下寫的文章說如果可以去護國神山誰要當代理教師而那一年建中發生什麼事情資訊教師找不到但是當時在爭這個資訊教師的時候他還刮胡要兼任圖書館主任\n69551\t84186\t那後來到PTT上去發文等到招了13招部長13招才找到人我沒有要講個案部長我再一次強調我沒有要講個案大家都看到教師荒的問題我只是舉其中兩個例子下一張\n85748\t102166\t那這個新聞截圖呢其實教育部一直都告訴我們你們有相關這些數字剛剛那個羅廷偉委員在問的時候部長甚至還談到後端師資培育的部分我都聽進去了我們來看一下如果部長用你的邏輯來看現在的數字有問題還是教育部的理解有落差\n103047\t123276\t教育部告訴我們新教師六成任教職多元配套確保教學人力這是教育部的新聞稿可是我們看到幾個問題第一個如果按照這個邏輯每一年所取得教師證的人你們認為會有六成甚至越來越提升進入教育現場那我們就要問三成多那四成到哪裡去了\n124256\t152535\t為什麼不進教育現場教育現場發生了什麼問題讓這些修了教育學程拿了證甚至可能是本科本系本專任學校所謂師大啦張師大啦這些學校的人都不願意去當老師我認為這個是我們真的要一起面對我不認為是只有教育部的問題我認為所有立法委員所有區域立委聽到民意的都要一起面對關心教育的人都要一起面對所以我很想問到底找不到老師是為什麼當然我們辦公室自己做了研究等一下跟部長討論第二個\n156058\t175698\t師資儲備轉換為現場教職員的轉換率其實是非常非常的低的如果按照這個邏輯大家都不來當老師所以當然就出現教師荒而且以前是只有代理代課教師荒現在連正式教師也出現教師荒我相信您的幕僚一定有給您數字而且今天已經來到八月多了\n176138\t189186\t各個縣市開圈應徵報到的狀況你可能也大略有所掌握我必須要說這些數字可能都很驚人教育部目前為止有沒有因應之道我等一下想請部長一起回答下一張\n191158\t205637\t我想要講的是一定有一些原因導致於大家不想當正式老師也不想當代理老師到底教育部這幾年的解決方案如同部長你說的你沒有解決方案可是落地之後到底發生了什麼事情\n206118\t222937\t我們來看這個數字這個數字是你們給我的部長我們辦公室跟你們所知我跟部長討論一下最左邊這一張呢是依照教育部的統計資料國小教師的總人數越來越多當然是有很多正式老師從代理代課老師上岸變正式老師可是教育現場一樣出現另外一個問題中間這張投影片紅色的字\n227102\t229503\t從110學年度5594人到112學年度8999人這些紅色的數字是所謂的無證代理教室\n240680\t263577\t部長無證這件事情我並沒有要指控所有無證的老師都不專業無證的老師沒有熱情搞不好這些無證的代理教師比現場有證九任的老師還要有熱情還要有專業可是在現在教師荒的情況之下很多縣市很多學校不得不打開門十招二十招三十招拜託\n264358\t287996\t只要有人願意進學校教書就算沒有證他大學畢業他就可以進來而部長110 112上升了將近60%欸我們的家長如果看到這個數字他會問部長我的小孩是被沒有證的老師教喔你們要怎麼保證教學品質你們要怎麼保障孩子的受教權益我認為所有家長都會焦慮\n290043\t310043\t這個數字可能你的幕僚沒有讓你知道但是我們這個是透過公開的公文所知不找這個數字我真的很害怕我們都是來自教育基層我們都在基層待過所以我們一定可以想見無證的狀況跟有證的狀況會發生截然不同的困境但這個困境我們教育部的因應對策是什麼\n311404\t333305\t這也是真的讓我很擔心的吳政 我剛剛講吳政我就不再多說了吳政的狀況我相信部長應該知道我們辦公室試著跟非常非常非常多地方教師跟學會跟工會也跟家長討論部長我想要提出一些可能的解方因為今天早上到目前為止有非常多人都跟你講了他們遇到的困境他們從地方收集到的意見\n334486\t349425\t有一件事情其實教育部從108課綱上路到現在六七年了一直在逃避面對的問題但是我認為從潘部長到您一定聽過有現場老師告訴你教育部要不要修園而法\n350717\t357166\t原額法有機會動教育現場的困境才能解決因為部長他是一個基生誕誕生期的問題我解釋給您聽如果我今天在教育現場因為108課綱所有的高中老師他額外備課的那些時間你們都沒有算原額給他\n368101\t388828\t幫忙cover行政的時間也沒有算時數給他所以現場的老師不僅行政增量他們連教學要備課的時間你們都沒有算給他所以所有的老師在準備那些高中為了應付大學考試額外108多出來那些課程都算入他的時數可是你們沒有多人給他所以每一個老師的超時你們怎麼解決400塊500塊終點費解決\n392984\t399908\t不是錢的問題部長每一個人都有自己的生活而老師現在幾乎超超超超時上班6點8點9點10點\n402188\t422449\t只要有熱情有愛對孩子有負責任心的老師都會願意留下來但長期以來耗損的是這些還有愛還有心留在現場的老師所有的老師都告訴我們你源而法跟著108課綱的改變沒有做出改變才是造成現在沒有人敢再走進教育現場最大的原因我知道源而法一動就會動到錢\n426155\t454337\t去年才化法又通過了很多錢會到地方去部長我拜託你我要跟你說很多這些錢是地方政府必須要去負擔的教育部要拿出你的肩膀拿出你的勇氣告訴這些執政縣市首長你花在教育端的錢如同剛羅廷偉委員說的不能信你就不能信不能站你就不能站不能逃你就不能逃所以未來各個執政縣市要不要去面對跟你教育部\n454758\t463199\t坐下來討論原額法我認為是要的這件事情才能根本的解決現場教師荒的問題\n464702\t489487\t行政再怎麼減量各部會還是發公文給學校行政再怎麼減量家長還是半夜打電話給老師行政再怎麼減量孩子的身心狀況在現場還是需要所有老師一起接觸更不要講現場還有太多不適應的老師是在拖垮現場認真的老師所以如果我們可以讓現場工作人他們合理的減低他們的工作量透過增加員額這件事情真的才能根本的解決\n490547\t502339\t第二個 回過頭來教師的薪資調整這件事情我認為一定很多人跟你講過了 部長但是我知道教育部經費有限署長你讓我先講完再跟部長報告好不好\n504751\t529600\t我們非常負責任想要提出解方因為指責大家都會可是如果你真心我們辦公室是真的真心想要跟教育部站在一起跟老師們站在一起跟家長站在一起繼而跟學生站在一起所有的困境是我剛剛講的現場的人都要承擔最後是教育部要來承擔回來談提升教職員薪資這件事情我們認為現在的教職員薪資確實要好好商議\n530941\t540042\t從校長到主任到現場老師到代理代課老師甚至連特教助理員大家都是因為錢的問題可是現在面對\n541778\t563273\t各式各樣社會環境變動經濟因素變動的關係都導致於薪資這件事情真的不是誘因啦部長好 再來落實行政減量這個很多人都講過我就不再講提升教師支持系統有非常多的老師一直在告訴我們家庭教育出了問題所有很多不該不該歸老師扛的通通怪老師\n564654\t587155\t孩子們的困境也要找老師家長不會教小孩也要找老師我要談的是整個行政系統的支援真的需要部長您大迫大力有非常多人一定給過您建言如何引進新的思維如何找一兩所關鍵學校開始試辦所謂大迫大力\n587936\t605195\t我認為這是大家對部長您的期待所以我花了這麼多力氣談解方其實最重要還是回到原額這件事情所以我要提醒財化法下去之後現在你們已經在編預算了我不確定你們編的預算是有財化法新版還是沒有財化法新版\n605876\t630576\t可是我們都知道很多地方的老師的薪水要地方來支付很多地方教育的支出要地方政府來支付我不確定教育部有沒有開始在事權分立這件事情跟縣市政府討論如果有請拜託把我這些談的事情做下來跟地方政府好好說哪些該中央出的哪些該地方負責的哪些該地方去監督的哪些該中央政府有法規的我認為\n632097\t640555\t所有的推脫最後受害的是小孩是家長是老師所以我們辦公室很負責任提出解放拜託部長好嗎\n642396\t661425\t謝謝委員的這個不但是發現問題理解問題而且還有一些具體的一些建議我想都非常有價值我們教育部一定會把這些來跟地方看特別剛才提到的顏額就是我們現在的一個小學的顏額大概1.65偏鄉我們是給2.0國中是這個2.2偏鄉是給3.0\n668248\t681277\t那這樣是不是能夠支撐到我們現在的大家對教育包括人才培育包括整個社會的一個變遷上所面臨的挑戰包含薪水等等的我想它是一個整體結構上我想我們會認真地很嚴肅地來跟\n685280\t702980\t地方來一起來共同來思考看怎麼樣能夠形成一個支持的力量謝謝部長 原額法的部分我們辦公室很願意積極做下來邀請教育部跟人總 組總一起討論因為這件事情是國家根本的問題如果原額不解決我真的不知道現場還有多少人願意留下來\n703841\t724571\t接下來我要談教育部最近幾個公共政策造成非常多基層的困擾我相信很多委員問過我就不再贅述但是我想要提醒教育部的整個系統裡面有沒有人去理解到社會溝通基層溝通非常的重要到底發布消息的管道哪裡出了問題到底從中央的美意到了地方變成強迫這件事情中間的落差是什麼\n725131\t750082\t所以我們都看到你們的說明但我想我就不再贅述這件事情要拜託部長到底我們在跟地方政府溝通出了什麼問題好嗎所以我們就從最近的一個政策來看我等一下來談體育部未來運動部的事情這個是一個關於署長的專訪體育署署長的專訪談到所謂的運動部9月9號掛牌倒數大家最關心的至少是我們辦公室最關心的體育班轉型跟校園開放\n752844\t780345\t這邊體育署署長在受訪的時候說我們未來要跟國教署合作希望未來一個禮拜裡面從兩天三天四天第七節課可以轉型成運動社團課那這個事情當然就引起很多爭議我們就不再贅述可是我要講的是這個文章看起來讓非常多關心體育班政策的轉型的人問我說這個是跟我們體育班轉型有關係嗎我想要請部長\n780927\t781357\t回應一下\n782953\t809889\t一個純粹基本上的精神就是說希望說我們的學生小朋友國中小學生不是每天上課排的滿滿的應該讓他們有一些比如說第七節第一年級有一次的有一天的時間讓他們能夠運動社團或者到操場去跑然後中高年級一個禮拜也許有兩天不要每天把課程塞得滿滿的那這個部分呢\n813195\t834536\t國教署還編了擔心等於說事實上這些本來他們學校都有排政客那我們希望能不能轉化為一個比較運動休閒有益於青少年小朋友的身心健康本來他是一個好事那而且教育部國教署也編有一些如果你社團的話你要推動幾多不一樣的\n835417\t851482\t這個社團是對學生是有價值的但是可能學校這個部分沒有這方面專長的老師他還可以給一些聘兼任的老師來指導社團或者體育各方面的運動的活動我想他的這個想法是\n853223\t868589\t好的而且我們是鼓勵地方也跟22個縣市教育局處所長都談過是剛開始是用這個鼓勵的我們總是要學的東西不可能老師全部教完教滿塞滿我們總要給學生有一個不一樣的一個\n872591\t882183\t部長你一定不知道我剛剛的擔心從何而來主席你也歡迎你一起看這張投影片的最下面兩句我沒有框起來但是我們的署長是怎麼說的為什麼會讓人誤會以為這個政策跟你未來運動部要做的體育班轉型掛鉤了呢最後這兩句說\n890936\t909924\t我們的學校專任運動教練考核在國小那一塊把成績歸零要求這些專任運動教練去做社團推動運動推動到時候不只是我們的體育班三點之後如果大家都去參與運動那體育班就沒有存在的必要了學生可以回歸正常的班級上課每個小孩都可以接觸運動社團跟運動訓練\n912345\t923271\t意思就是說看起來是國教署的事情可是最後拉到體育署甚至拉到未來的運動部對於體育班的正義轉型這件事情我們怎麼能夠不擔心部長\n924485\t950544\t是這段話 但是我剛剛非常尊重部長我讓部長您把剛剛第七集的事情好好地講完了全國人民也都聽見了但是我要講的是我非常非常非常我用了三個非常擔心現在教育部裡面會不會很多幕僚搞不清楚狀況幫忙莫名其妙為未來的運動部背了一個政策的鍋而未來運動部跟教育部在體育班的分工\n951872\t972132\t他會出現一個多大的落差我們來看下一張頭影片體育班的存在說在某些地方有需要我們試著從六都跟家庭經濟狀況比較好的這些社區縣市開始做如果可以成功轉型就讓他轉型我真的不懂部長我從小是經濟狀況極差極差極差的小孩\n976601\t985127\t而我的小孩現在因為我跟爸爸的努力他們可以算是家庭經濟狀況好的小孩請問家庭經濟狀況如何跟一個孩子要不要去參加體育班產生關聯\n986894\t1005531\t我們還是用過去黨國時代用衛福社福的想法在看待體育班請問他們要怎麼走出奪牌主義而目前為止我不知道這個鍋誰要背是你們教育部未來要背還是運動部要背如果都沒有人要背那我不知道未來這些體育班的小孩還要繼續如何的為國家犧牲他們黃金珍貴的學習學術科目的時間就只是為了幫國家奪牌\n1011816\t1036506\t過去已經有很多選手站出來告訴你們不是只有專家學者在告訴你們連陳傑憲都當面跟賴總統說過體育班要轉型不要再消耗選手了可是在幾次的公開體育署長的受訪裡面我不確定署長們跟部長您報告但是我看到痛心就是這樣剛剛在教師荒的部分我覺得我非常的平和可是講到這個體育班我真的要問我們還要繼續犧牲多少小孩\n1040427\t1059906\t而現在竟然講出跟家庭經濟狀況比較好的這些社區開始做那你把我們偏鄉家庭經濟狀況不好的小孩他就該死嗎他就該被放在體育班裡面嗎就只是因為體育班的教練會去找錢找球衣 找球鞋然後讓他們放學後有人幫他們做客服所以他們就留在隊上面為學校奪牌 為縣市奪牌未來為全國奪牌\n1063390\t1085294\t部長我當面跟您討論體育班的事情討論過非常非常多次講到我都覺得會不會你覺得我很煩但是我們沒有在幫孩子發聲的時候會不會九月運動部成立之後有更多的小孩就在兩個部會沒有講清楚情況下被犧牲了跟委員報告我對體育班的看法跟委員是一致的\n1088922\t1106504\t我們不希望我們的小朋友從小學就讀體育班他只有打球運動事實上我們希望他在學科的學習在整個身心的發展是一個更正常的更全面性的為什麼今天運動部的成立我覺得他是非常有價值的\n1107785\t1121336\t等一下部長我跟你說我完全認同你剛剛講的學科學習跟身心發展對於一個想要投身於運動的孩子來說非常重要二 全國人民真的都非常期待運動部 我跟你一樣但我現在要講的不是這個大的命題我要講的是\n1125720\t1150498\t部長我要拜託你一定要密切的跟體育署現在未來要升格成運動部剩下不到一個月的時間了這中間的討論到底哪一些歸你們教育部在未來未來哪一些歸運動部而中間現在在實務現場可能產生的縫隙我們大人看起來叫做縫隙在資源不足社區環境不足的小孩面前那叫地獄\n1152315\t1179775\t我必須要用這麼嚴正的話因為我在偏鄉陪小孩的時間超過十年我要再講一次我們大人我們有資源站在台北講這些話的大人叫做縫隙對於每天在社區在原生家庭裡面被教練逼著走的那些奪牌那些小孩來說那個縫隙叫地獄部長所以我只是要告訴您在相關資訊的銜接上一定出了問題才會導致於我們看下一張投影片現在我們手上拿到的運動部的規劃是長這樣\n1182536\t1200267\t競技運動司部長第八項學校體育班制度跟學校專任運動教練政策是規劃法規研修及督導他被放在競技運動司欸有沒有完全是我剛剛講的那一段這些小孩繼續被當工具人繼續犧牲\n1203359\t1218564\t然後在這個過程當中他們可能真的不清楚自己什麼權益被犧牲了因為從小沒有人告訴他們原來那個是你的權益我再說一次從小在那個環境威權體制下長大的選手他什麼時候開了視野\n1220265\t1234661\t什麼時候有人幫他打開那個眼界他才知道說原來我被犧牲了就如陳潔倩說她是到日本去念書她才知道簡齊生說她到英國還是到國外去遊學的時候在跟外國同學聊天才發現抽血是不對的\n1237171\t1263564\t而這樣的現場可能就在我剛剛說的您說是縫隙我說是地獄當中被犧牲第六點全國運動會學生綜合型運動賽事學生運動聯賽之規劃執行之輔導這些聯賽都跟體育班有關都跟選手有關第二項各級優秀競爭運動教練之與選手之選拔四級培育之規劃執行輔導及考核通通都在競技運動室部長你現在知道我為什麼那麼擔心害怕焦慮了嗎\n1266240\t1278837\t他一旦一直被框在競技運動私底下我們就不可能走出奪牌思維工具人思維這是很現實的因為業務分工一下去他就是長成像這樣對不對 部長\n1281428\t1300806\t我想跟委員報告我們運動部的一個成立事實上就是希望全民健康運動成為一種生活的態度然後確保全國人的一個健康那我們看到運動部其實也讓我看到了另外一個機會就是我們看到史丹佛大學去年的奧運他一個\n1301687\t1330999\t史丹佛大學的一個這個名校有學生拿了三十幾塊的金銀銅牌這也是我們看到從過去只是強調少數精英的一個運動人才培育我們希望把pool做大讓全民都運動全民事實上包含我們今天所有在會場裡邊所有的不管是官員或者我民意代表有很多人的運動也非常好但是他們沒有選擇往運動那個方向我們總是希望\n1331559\t1352101\t大家是健康的但是我們未來的為國家能夠爭取榮耀的已經不是那一個體育班而已他可能是有更多的人我想委員剛才所非常熱心這個關切的我們一定會來深切的來檢討看怎麼樣讓他在未來的一個體育署\n1353202\t1367455\t體育組改為運動部的時候能夠真正的能夠照我們的一個理想能夠來逐步來實現謝謝部長那個未及答覆的麻煩就書面答覆陳培委員還沒有有拜託再給我一下下拜託\n1368456\t1368836\t謝謝委員提醒 這是我們應該做的\n1392099\t1394160\t我們之前在台中市棒球體育班大規模性侵之後我們要求教育部要做不適任人員清查制度的破口\n1413545\t1430399\t我們要求你們去做這個事情結果回覆出來的一次一次回覆目前確實透過普查查出有35個人是所謂的不適任可是如果沒有去查這些人都還在教育現場但非常可怕的是目前還有台中市新竹縣新竹市南投縣雲林縣沒有回覆\n1431563\t1454235\t這個很可怕我剛剛已經實現說了有查才被發現那更何況那些沒有查的會出什麼事情7月15號我們辦公室持續跟教育部人事處開會這件事情可以怎麼做很開心教育部給我們非常積極的回覆說可以做系統跟後台查詢的改良這個事情我們會繼續追查我們希望教育部可以承諾在年底以前完成不適任人員清查監督資訊系統的改良\n1457837\t1479358\t第二个定期公告教育部所属跟各县市高中以下学校不适任人员查询的状况还有部长我刚跟你说的迟迟不回的台中市新竹县新竹市南投县云林县请你们继续追踪这些资料可以再跟我们办公室索取好吗好谢谢谢谢主席谢谢陈培宇委员的质询官员请回座\n","txt":"陳培宇委員質詢好 謝謝主席 有請部長請鄭部長備質詢 謝謝\n委員好部長辛苦了從早上站到現在真的辛苦了我今天問的第一個問題其實叫失慌已經很多人問過了但是我有幾個數字幾個現場的現象然後也跟非常多老師討論我想要反映給部長左邊這張圖部長可能以為是\n很可愛的梗圖而已但是我要跟部長說很無奈這個是在教育現場學校為了徵老師連老師自己都要來做梗圖徵老師才有可能吸睛才有可能被關注才有可能在網路上有流量讓更多除背中的老師看見來這裡應徵\n右邊這張圖呢是幾年前親子天下寫的文章說如果可以去護國神山誰要當代理教師而那一年建中發生什麼事情資訊教師找不到但是當時在爭這個資訊教師的時候他還刮胡要兼任圖書館主任\n那後來到PTT上去發文等到招了13招部長13招才找到人我沒有要講個案部長我再一次強調我沒有要講個案大家都看到教師荒的問題我只是舉其中兩個例子下一張\n那這個新聞截圖呢其實教育部一直都告訴我們你們有相關這些數字剛剛那個羅廷偉委員在問的時候部長甚至還談到後端師資培育的部分我都聽進去了我們來看一下如果部長用你的邏輯來看現在的數字有問題還是教育部的理解有落差\n教育部告訴我們新教師六成任教職多元配套確保教學人力這是教育部的新聞稿可是我們看到幾個問題第一個如果按照這個邏輯每一年所取得教師證的人你們認為會有六成甚至越來越提升進入教育現場那我們就要問三成多那四成到哪裡去了\n為什麼不進教育現場教育現場發生了什麼問題讓這些修了教育學程拿了證甚至可能是本科本系本專任學校所謂師大啦張師大啦這些學校的人都不願意去當老師我認為這個是我們真的要一起面對我不認為是只有教育部的問題我認為所有立法委員所有區域立委聽到民意的都要一起面對關心教育的人都要一起面對所以我很想問到底找不到老師是為什麼當然我們辦公室自己做了研究等一下跟部長討論第二個\n師資儲備轉換為現場教職員的轉換率其實是非常非常的低的如果按照這個邏輯大家都不來當老師所以當然就出現教師荒而且以前是只有代理代課教師荒現在連正式教師也出現教師荒我相信您的幕僚一定有給您數字而且今天已經來到八月多了\n各個縣市開圈應徵報到的狀況你可能也大略有所掌握我必須要說這些數字可能都很驚人教育部目前為止有沒有因應之道我等一下想請部長一起回答下一張\n我想要講的是一定有一些原因導致於大家不想當正式老師也不想當代理老師到底教育部這幾年的解決方案如同部長你說的你沒有解決方案可是落地之後到底發生了什麼事情\n我們來看這個數字這個數字是你們給我的部長我們辦公室跟你們所知我跟部長討論一下最左邊這一張呢是依照教育部的統計資料國小教師的總人數越來越多當然是有很多正式老師從代理代課老師上岸變正式老師可是教育現場一樣出現另外一個問題中間這張投影片紅色的字\n從110學年度5594人到112學年度8999人這些紅色的數字是所謂的無證代理教室\n部長無證這件事情我並沒有要指控所有無證的老師都不專業無證的老師沒有熱情搞不好這些無證的代理教師比現場有證九任的老師還要有熱情還要有專業可是在現在教師荒的情況之下很多縣市很多學校不得不打開門十招二十招三十招拜託\n只要有人願意進學校教書就算沒有證他大學畢業他就可以進來而部長110 112上升了將近60%欸我們的家長如果看到這個數字他會問部長我的小孩是被沒有證的老師教喔你們要怎麼保證教學品質你們要怎麼保障孩子的受教權益我認為所有家長都會焦慮\n這個數字可能你的幕僚沒有讓你知道但是我們這個是透過公開的公文所知不找這個數字我真的很害怕我們都是來自教育基層我們都在基層待過所以我們一定可以想見無證的狀況跟有證的狀況會發生截然不同的困境但這個困境我們教育部的因應對策是什麼\n這也是真的讓我很擔心的吳政 我剛剛講吳政我就不再多說了吳政的狀況我相信部長應該知道我們辦公室試著跟非常非常非常多地方教師跟學會跟工會也跟家長討論部長我想要提出一些可能的解方因為今天早上到目前為止有非常多人都跟你講了他們遇到的困境他們從地方收集到的意見\n有一件事情其實教育部從108課綱上路到現在六七年了一直在逃避面對的問題但是我認為從潘部長到您一定聽過有現場老師告訴你教育部要不要修園而法\n原額法有機會動教育現場的困境才能解決因為部長他是一個基生誕誕生期的問題我解釋給您聽如果我今天在教育現場因為108課綱所有的高中老師他額外備課的那些時間你們都沒有算原額給他\n幫忙cover行政的時間也沒有算時數給他所以現場的老師不僅行政增量他們連教學要備課的時間你們都沒有算給他所以所有的老師在準備那些高中為了應付大學考試額外108多出來那些課程都算入他的時數可是你們沒有多人給他所以每一個老師的超時你們怎麼解決400塊500塊終點費解決\n不是錢的問題部長每一個人都有自己的生活而老師現在幾乎超超超超時上班6點8點9點10點\n只要有熱情有愛對孩子有負責任心的老師都會願意留下來但長期以來耗損的是這些還有愛還有心留在現場的老師所有的老師都告訴我們你源而法跟著108課綱的改變沒有做出改變才是造成現在沒有人敢再走進教育現場最大的原因我知道源而法一動就會動到錢\n去年才化法又通過了很多錢會到地方去部長我拜託你我要跟你說很多這些錢是地方政府必須要去負擔的教育部要拿出你的肩膀拿出你的勇氣告訴這些執政縣市首長你花在教育端的錢如同剛羅廷偉委員說的不能信你就不能信不能站你就不能站不能逃你就不能逃所以未來各個執政縣市要不要去面對跟你教育部\n坐下來討論原額法我認為是要的這件事情才能根本的解決現場教師荒的問題\n行政再怎麼減量各部會還是發公文給學校行政再怎麼減量家長還是半夜打電話給老師行政再怎麼減量孩子的身心狀況在現場還是需要所有老師一起接觸更不要講現場還有太多不適應的老師是在拖垮現場認真的老師所以如果我們可以讓現場工作人他們合理的減低他們的工作量透過增加員額這件事情真的才能根本的解決\n第二個 回過頭來教師的薪資調整這件事情我認為一定很多人跟你講過了 部長但是我知道教育部經費有限署長你讓我先講完再跟部長報告好不好\n我們非常負責任想要提出解方因為指責大家都會可是如果你真心我們辦公室是真的真心想要跟教育部站在一起跟老師們站在一起跟家長站在一起繼而跟學生站在一起所有的困境是我剛剛講的現場的人都要承擔最後是教育部要來承擔回來談提升教職員薪資這件事情我們認為現在的教職員薪資確實要好好商議\n從校長到主任到現場老師到代理代課老師甚至連特教助理員大家都是因為錢的問題可是現在面對\n各式各樣社會環境變動經濟因素變動的關係都導致於薪資這件事情真的不是誘因啦部長好 再來落實行政減量這個很多人都講過我就不再講提升教師支持系統有非常多的老師一直在告訴我們家庭教育出了問題所有很多不該不該歸老師扛的通通怪老師\n孩子們的困境也要找老師家長不會教小孩也要找老師我要談的是整個行政系統的支援真的需要部長您大迫大力有非常多人一定給過您建言如何引進新的思維如何找一兩所關鍵學校開始試辦所謂大迫大力\n我認為這是大家對部長您的期待所以我花了這麼多力氣談解方其實最重要還是回到原額這件事情所以我要提醒財化法下去之後現在你們已經在編預算了我不確定你們編的預算是有財化法新版還是沒有財化法新版\n可是我們都知道很多地方的老師的薪水要地方來支付很多地方教育的支出要地方政府來支付我不確定教育部有沒有開始在事權分立這件事情跟縣市政府討論如果有請拜託把我這些談的事情做下來跟地方政府好好說哪些該中央出的哪些該地方負責的哪些該地方去監督的哪些該中央政府有法規的我認為\n所有的推脫最後受害的是小孩是家長是老師所以我們辦公室很負責任提出解放拜託部長好嗎\n謝謝委員的這個不但是發現問題理解問題而且還有一些具體的一些建議我想都非常有價值我們教育部一定會把這些來跟地方看特別剛才提到的顏額就是我們現在的一個小學的顏額大概1.65偏鄉我們是給2.0國中是這個2.2偏鄉是給3.0\n那這樣是不是能夠支撐到我們現在的大家對教育包括人才培育包括整個社會的一個變遷上所面臨的挑戰包含薪水等等的我想它是一個整體結構上我想我們會認真地很嚴肅地來跟\n地方來一起來共同來思考看怎麼樣能夠形成一個支持的力量謝謝部長 原額法的部分我們辦公室很願意積極做下來邀請教育部跟人總 組總一起討論因為這件事情是國家根本的問題如果原額不解決我真的不知道現場還有多少人願意留下來\n接下來我要談教育部最近幾個公共政策造成非常多基層的困擾我相信很多委員問過我就不再贅述但是我想要提醒教育部的整個系統裡面有沒有人去理解到社會溝通基層溝通非常的重要到底發布消息的管道哪裡出了問題到底從中央的美意到了地方變成強迫這件事情中間的落差是什麼\n所以我們都看到你們的說明但我想我就不再贅述這件事情要拜託部長到底我們在跟地方政府溝通出了什麼問題好嗎所以我們就從最近的一個政策來看我等一下來談體育部未來運動部的事情這個是一個關於署長的專訪體育署署長的專訪談到所謂的運動部9月9號掛牌倒數大家最關心的至少是我們辦公室最關心的體育班轉型跟校園開放\n這邊體育署署長在受訪的時候說我們未來要跟國教署合作希望未來一個禮拜裡面從兩天三天四天第七節課可以轉型成運動社團課那這個事情當然就引起很多爭議我們就不再贅述可是我要講的是這個文章看起來讓非常多關心體育班政策的轉型的人問我說這個是跟我們體育班轉型有關係嗎我想要請部長\n回應一下\n一個純粹基本上的精神就是說希望說我們的學生小朋友國中小學生不是每天上課排的滿滿的應該讓他們有一些比如說第七節第一年級有一次的有一天的時間讓他們能夠運動社團或者到操場去跑然後中高年級一個禮拜也許有兩天不要每天把課程塞得滿滿的那這個部分呢\n國教署還編了擔心等於說事實上這些本來他們學校都有排政客那我們希望能不能轉化為一個比較運動休閒有益於青少年小朋友的身心健康本來他是一個好事那而且教育部國教署也編有一些如果你社團的話你要推動幾多不一樣的\n這個社團是對學生是有價值的但是可能學校這個部分沒有這方面專長的老師他還可以給一些聘兼任的老師來指導社團或者體育各方面的運動的活動我想他的這個想法是\n好的而且我們是鼓勵地方也跟22個縣市教育局處所長都談過是剛開始是用這個鼓勵的我們總是要學的東西不可能老師全部教完教滿塞滿我們總要給學生有一個不一樣的一個\n部長你一定不知道我剛剛的擔心從何而來主席你也歡迎你一起看這張投影片的最下面兩句我沒有框起來但是我們的署長是怎麼說的為什麼會讓人誤會以為這個政策跟你未來運動部要做的體育班轉型掛鉤了呢最後這兩句說\n我們的學校專任運動教練考核在國小那一塊把成績歸零要求這些專任運動教練去做社團推動運動推動到時候不只是我們的體育班三點之後如果大家都去參與運動那體育班就沒有存在的必要了學生可以回歸正常的班級上課每個小孩都可以接觸運動社團跟運動訓練\n意思就是說看起來是國教署的事情可是最後拉到體育署甚至拉到未來的運動部對於體育班的正義轉型這件事情我們怎麼能夠不擔心部長\n是這段話 但是我剛剛非常尊重部長我讓部長您把剛剛第七集的事情好好地講完了全國人民也都聽見了但是我要講的是我非常非常非常我用了三個非常擔心現在教育部裡面會不會很多幕僚搞不清楚狀況幫忙莫名其妙為未來的運動部背了一個政策的鍋而未來運動部跟教育部在體育班的分工\n他會出現一個多大的落差我們來看下一張頭影片體育班的存在說在某些地方有需要我們試著從六都跟家庭經濟狀況比較好的這些社區縣市開始做如果可以成功轉型就讓他轉型我真的不懂部長我從小是經濟狀況極差極差極差的小孩\n而我的小孩現在因為我跟爸爸的努力他們可以算是家庭經濟狀況好的小孩請問家庭經濟狀況如何跟一個孩子要不要去參加體育班產生關聯\n我們還是用過去黨國時代用衛福社福的想法在看待體育班請問他們要怎麼走出奪牌主義而目前為止我不知道這個鍋誰要背是你們教育部未來要背還是運動部要背如果都沒有人要背那我不知道未來這些體育班的小孩還要繼續如何的為國家犧牲他們黃金珍貴的學習學術科目的時間就只是為了幫國家奪牌\n過去已經有很多選手站出來告訴你們不是只有專家學者在告訴你們連陳傑憲都當面跟賴總統說過體育班要轉型不要再消耗選手了可是在幾次的公開體育署長的受訪裡面我不確定署長們跟部長您報告但是我看到痛心就是這樣剛剛在教師荒的部分我覺得我非常的平和可是講到這個體育班我真的要問我們還要繼續犧牲多少小孩\n而現在竟然講出跟家庭經濟狀況比較好的這些社區開始做那你把我們偏鄉家庭經濟狀況不好的小孩他就該死嗎他就該被放在體育班裡面嗎就只是因為體育班的教練會去找錢找球衣 找球鞋然後讓他們放學後有人幫他們做客服所以他們就留在隊上面為學校奪牌 為縣市奪牌未來為全國奪牌\n部長我當面跟您討論體育班的事情討論過非常非常多次講到我都覺得會不會你覺得我很煩但是我們沒有在幫孩子發聲的時候會不會九月運動部成立之後有更多的小孩就在兩個部會沒有講清楚情況下被犧牲了跟委員報告我對體育班的看法跟委員是一致的\n我們不希望我們的小朋友從小學就讀體育班他只有打球運動事實上我們希望他在學科的學習在整個身心的發展是一個更正常的更全面性的為什麼今天運動部的成立我覺得他是非常有價值的\n等一下部長我跟你說我完全認同你剛剛講的學科學習跟身心發展對於一個想要投身於運動的孩子來說非常重要二 全國人民真的都非常期待運動部 我跟你一樣但我現在要講的不是這個大的命題我要講的是\n部長我要拜託你一定要密切的跟體育署現在未來要升格成運動部剩下不到一個月的時間了這中間的討論到底哪一些歸你們教育部在未來未來哪一些歸運動部而中間現在在實務現場可能產生的縫隙我們大人看起來叫做縫隙在資源不足社區環境不足的小孩面前那叫地獄\n我必須要用這麼嚴正的話因為我在偏鄉陪小孩的時間超過十年我要再講一次我們大人我們有資源站在台北講這些話的大人叫做縫隙對於每天在社區在原生家庭裡面被教練逼著走的那些奪牌那些小孩來說那個縫隙叫地獄部長所以我只是要告訴您在相關資訊的銜接上一定出了問題才會導致於我們看下一張投影片現在我們手上拿到的運動部的規劃是長這樣\n競技運動司部長第八項學校體育班制度跟學校專任運動教練政策是規劃法規研修及督導他被放在競技運動司欸有沒有完全是我剛剛講的那一段這些小孩繼續被當工具人繼續犧牲\n然後在這個過程當中他們可能真的不清楚自己什麼權益被犧牲了因為從小沒有人告訴他們原來那個是你的權益我再說一次從小在那個環境威權體制下長大的選手他什麼時候開了視野\n什麼時候有人幫他打開那個眼界他才知道說原來我被犧牲了就如陳潔倩說她是到日本去念書她才知道簡齊生說她到英國還是到國外去遊學的時候在跟外國同學聊天才發現抽血是不對的\n而這樣的現場可能就在我剛剛說的您說是縫隙我說是地獄當中被犧牲第六點全國運動會學生綜合型運動賽事學生運動聯賽之規劃執行之輔導這些聯賽都跟體育班有關都跟選手有關第二項各級優秀競爭運動教練之與選手之選拔四級培育之規劃執行輔導及考核通通都在競技運動室部長你現在知道我為什麼那麼擔心害怕焦慮了嗎\n他一旦一直被框在競技運動私底下我們就不可能走出奪牌思維工具人思維這是很現實的因為業務分工一下去他就是長成像這樣對不對 部長\n我想跟委員報告我們運動部的一個成立事實上就是希望全民健康運動成為一種生活的態度然後確保全國人的一個健康那我們看到運動部其實也讓我看到了另外一個機會就是我們看到史丹佛大學去年的奧運他一個\n史丹佛大學的一個這個名校有學生拿了三十幾塊的金銀銅牌這也是我們看到從過去只是強調少數精英的一個運動人才培育我們希望把pool做大讓全民都運動全民事實上包含我們今天所有在會場裡邊所有的不管是官員或者我民意代表有很多人的運動也非常好但是他們沒有選擇往運動那個方向我們總是希望\n大家是健康的但是我們未來的為國家能夠爭取榮耀的已經不是那一個體育班而已他可能是有更多的人我想委員剛才所非常熱心這個關切的我們一定會來深切的來檢討看怎麼樣讓他在未來的一個體育署\n體育組改為運動部的時候能夠真正的能夠照我們的一個理想能夠來逐步來實現謝謝部長那個未及答覆的麻煩就書面答覆陳培委員還沒有有拜託再給我一下下拜託\n謝謝委員提醒 這是我們應該做的\n我們之前在台中市棒球體育班大規模性侵之後我們要求教育部要做不適任人員清查制度的破口\n我們要求你們去做這個事情結果回覆出來的一次一次回覆目前確實透過普查查出有35個人是所謂的不適任可是如果沒有去查這些人都還在教育現場但非常可怕的是目前還有台中市新竹縣新竹市南投縣雲林縣沒有回覆\n這個很可怕我剛剛已經實現說了有查才被發現那更何況那些沒有查的會出什麼事情7月15號我們辦公室持續跟教育部人事處開會這件事情可以怎麼做很開心教育部給我們非常積極的回覆說可以做系統跟後台查詢的改良這個事情我們會繼續追查我們希望教育部可以承諾在年底以前完成不適任人員清查監督資訊系統的改良\n第二个定期公告教育部所属跟各县市高中以下学校不适任人员查询的状况还有部长我刚跟你说的迟迟不回的台中市新竹县新竹市南投县云林县请你们继续追踪这些资料可以再跟我们办公室索取好吗好谢谢谢谢主席谢谢陈培宇委员的质询官员请回座\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.349 --> 00:08.036\n陳培宇委員質詢好謝謝主席有請部長請鄭部長備質詢謝謝\n\n00:17.096 --> 00:32.625\n委員好部長辛苦了從早上站到現在真的辛苦了我今天問的第一個問題其實叫失慌已經很多人問過了但是我有幾個數字幾個現場的現象然後也跟非常多老師討論我想要反映給部長左邊這張圖部長可能以為是\n\n00:33.826 --> 00:50.523\n很可愛的梗圖而已但是我要跟部長說很無奈這個是在教育現場學校為了徵老師連老師自己都要來做梗圖徵老師才有可能吸睛才有可能被關注才有可能在網路上有流量讓更多除背中的老師看見來這裡應徵\n\n00:53.125 --> 01:07.930\n右邊這張圖呢是幾年前親子天下寫的文章說如果可以去護國神山誰要當代理教師而那一年建中發生什麼事情資訊教師找不到但是當時在爭這個資訊教師的時候他還刮胡要兼任圖書館主任\n\n01:09.551 --> 01:24.186\n那後來到PTT上去發文等到招了13招部長13招才找到人我沒有要講個案部長我再一次強調我沒有要講個案大家都看到教師荒的問題我只是舉其中兩個例子下一張\n\n01:25.748 --> 01:42.166\n那這個新聞截圖呢其實教育部一直都告訴我們你們有相關這些數字剛剛那個羅廷偉委員在問的時候部長甚至還談到後端師資培育的部分我都聽進去了我們來看一下如果部長用你的邏輯來看現在的數字有問題還是教育部的理解有落差\n\n01:43.047 --> 02:03.276\n教育部告訴我們新教師六成任教職多元配套確保教學人力這是教育部的新聞稿可是我們看到幾個問題第一個如果按照這個邏輯每一年所取得教師證的人你們認為會有六成甚至越來越提升進入教育現場那我們就要問三成多那四成到哪裡去了\n\n02:04.256 --> 02:32.535\n為什麼不進教育現場教育現場發生了什麼問題讓這些修了教育學程拿了證甚至可能是本科本系本專任學校所謂師大啦張師大啦這些學校的人都不願意去當老師我認為這個是我們真的要一起面對我不認為是只有教育部的問題我認為所有立法委員所有區域立委聽到民意的都要一起面對關心教育的人都要一起面對所以我很想問到底找不到老師是為什麼當然我們辦公室自己做了研究等一下跟部長討論第二個\n\n02:36.058 --> 02:55.698\n師資儲備轉換為現場教職員的轉換率其實是非常非常的低的如果按照這個邏輯大家都不來當老師所以當然就出現教師荒而且以前是只有代理代課教師荒現在連正式教師也出現教師荒我相信您的幕僚一定有給您數字而且今天已經來到八月多了\n\n02:56.138 --> 03:09.186\n各個縣市開圈應徵報到的狀況你可能也大略有所掌握我必須要說這些數字可能都很驚人教育部目前為止有沒有因應之道我等一下想請部長一起回答下一張\n\n03:11.158 --> 03:25.637\n我想要講的是一定有一些原因導致於大家不想當正式老師也不想當代理老師到底教育部這幾年的解決方案如同部長你說的你沒有解決方案可是落地之後到底發生了什麼事情\n\n03:26.118 --> 03:42.937\n我們來看這個數字這個數字是你們給我的部長我們辦公室跟你們所知我跟部長討論一下最左邊這一張呢是依照教育部的統計資料國小教師的總人數越來越多當然是有很多正式老師從代理代課老師上岸變正式老師可是教育現場一樣出現另外一個問題中間這張投影片紅色的字\n\n03:47.102 --> 03:49.503\n從110學年度5594人到112學年度8999人這些紅色的數字是所謂的無證代理教室\n\n04:00.680 --> 04:23.577\n部長無證這件事情我並沒有要指控所有無證的老師都不專業無證的老師沒有熱情搞不好這些無證的代理教師比現場有證九任的老師還要有熱情還要有專業可是在現在教師荒的情況之下很多縣市很多學校不得不打開門十招二十招三十招拜託\n\n04:24.358 --> 04:47.996\n只要有人願意進學校教書就算沒有證他大學畢業他就可以進來而部長110112上升了將近60%欸我們的家長如果看到這個數字他會問部長我的小孩是被沒有證的老師教喔你們要怎麼保證教學品質你們要怎麼保障孩子的受教權益我認為所有家長都會焦慮\n\n04:50.043 --> 05:10.043\n這個數字可能你的幕僚沒有讓你知道但是我們這個是透過公開的公文所知不找這個數字我真的很害怕我們都是來自教育基層我們都在基層待過所以我們一定可以想見無證的狀況跟有證的狀況會發生截然不同的困境但這個困境我們教育部的因應對策是什麼\n\n05:11.404 --> 05:33.305\n這也是真的讓我很擔心的吳政我剛剛講吳政我就不再多說了吳政的狀況我相信部長應該知道我們辦公室試著跟非常非常非常多地方教師跟學會跟工會也跟家長討論部長我想要提出一些可能的解方因為今天早上到目前為止有非常多人都跟你講了他們遇到的困境他們從地方收集到的意見\n\n05:34.486 --> 05:49.425\n有一件事情其實教育部從108課綱上路到現在六七年了一直在逃避面對的問題但是我認為從潘部長到您一定聽過有現場老師告訴你教育部要不要修園而法\n\n05:50.717 --> 05:57.166\n原額法有機會動教育現場的困境才能解決因為部長他是一個基生誕誕生期的問題我解釋給您聽如果我今天在教育現場因為108課綱所有的高中老師他額外備課的那些時間你們都沒有算原額給他\n\n06:08.101 --> 06:28.828\n幫忙cover行政的時間也沒有算時數給他所以現場的老師不僅行政增量他們連教學要備課的時間你們都沒有算給他所以所有的老師在準備那些高中為了應付大學考試額外108多出來那些課程都算入他的時數可是你們沒有多人給他所以每一個老師的超時你們怎麼解決400塊500塊終點費解決\n\n06:32.984 --> 06:39.908\n不是錢的問題部長每一個人都有自己的生活而老師現在幾乎超超超超時上班6點8點9點10點\n\n06:42.188 --> 07:02.449\n只要有熱情有愛對孩子有負責任心的老師都會願意留下來但長期以來耗損的是這些還有愛還有心留在現場的老師所有的老師都告訴我們你源而法跟著108課綱的改變沒有做出改變才是造成現在沒有人敢再走進教育現場最大的原因我知道源而法一動就會動到錢\n\n07:06.155 --> 07:34.337\n去年才化法又通過了很多錢會到地方去部長我拜託你我要跟你說很多這些錢是地方政府必須要去負擔的教育部要拿出你的肩膀拿出你的勇氣告訴這些執政縣市首長你花在教育端的錢如同剛羅廷偉委員說的不能信你就不能信不能站你就不能站不能逃你就不能逃所以未來各個執政縣市要不要去面對跟你教育部\n\n07:34.758 --> 07:43.199\n坐下來討論原額法我認為是要的這件事情才能根本的解決現場教師荒的問題\n\n07:44.702 --> 08:09.487\n行政再怎麼減量各部會還是發公文給學校行政再怎麼減量家長還是半夜打電話給老師行政再怎麼減量孩子的身心狀況在現場還是需要所有老師一起接觸更不要講現場還有太多不適應的老師是在拖垮現場認真的老師所以如果我們可以讓現場工作人他們合理的減低他們的工作量透過增加員額這件事情真的才能根本的解決\n\n08:10.547 --> 08:22.339\n第二個回過頭來教師的薪資調整這件事情我認為一定很多人跟你講過了部長但是我知道教育部經費有限署長你讓我先講完再跟部長報告好不好\n\n08:24.751 --> 08:49.600\n我們非常負責任想要提出解方因為指責大家都會可是如果你真心我們辦公室是真的真心想要跟教育部站在一起跟老師們站在一起跟家長站在一起繼而跟學生站在一起所有的困境是我剛剛講的現場的人都要承擔最後是教育部要來承擔回來談提升教職員薪資這件事情我們認為現在的教職員薪資確實要好好商議\n\n08:50.941 --> 09:00.042\n從校長到主任到現場老師到代理代課老師甚至連特教助理員大家都是因為錢的問題可是現在面對\n\n09:01.778 --> 09:23.273\n各式各樣社會環境變動經濟因素變動的關係都導致於薪資這件事情真的不是誘因啦部長好再來落實行政減量這個很多人都講過我就不再講提升教師支持系統有非常多的老師一直在告訴我們家庭教育出了問題所有很多不該不該歸老師扛的通通怪老師\n\n09:24.654 --> 09:47.155\n孩子們的困境也要找老師家長不會教小孩也要找老師我要談的是整個行政系統的支援真的需要部長您大迫大力有非常多人一定給過您建言如何引進新的思維如何找一兩所關鍵學校開始試辦所謂大迫大力\n\n09:47.936 --> 10:05.195\n我認為這是大家對部長您的期待所以我花了這麼多力氣談解方其實最重要還是回到原額這件事情所以我要提醒財化法下去之後現在你們已經在編預算了我不確定你們編的預算是有財化法新版還是沒有財化法新版\n\n10:05.876 --> 10:30.576\n可是我們都知道很多地方的老師的薪水要地方來支付很多地方教育的支出要地方政府來支付我不確定教育部有沒有開始在事權分立這件事情跟縣市政府討論如果有請拜託把我這些談的事情做下來跟地方政府好好說哪些該中央出的哪些該地方負責的哪些該地方去監督的哪些該中央政府有法規的我認為\n\n10:32.097 --> 10:40.555\n所有的推脫最後受害的是小孩是家長是老師所以我們辦公室很負責任提出解放拜託部長好嗎\n\n10:42.396 --> 11:01.425\n謝謝委員的這個不但是發現問題理解問題而且還有一些具體的一些建議我想都非常有價值我們教育部一定會把這些來跟地方看特別剛才提到的顏額就是我們現在的一個小學的顏額大概1.65偏鄉我們是給2.0國中是這個2.2偏鄉是給3.0\n\n11:08.248 --> 11:21.277\n那這樣是不是能夠支撐到我們現在的大家對教育包括人才培育包括整個社會的一個變遷上所面臨的挑戰包含薪水等等的我想它是一個整體結構上我想我們會認真地很嚴肅地來跟\n\n11:25.280 --> 11:42.980\n地方來一起來共同來思考看怎麼樣能夠形成一個支持的力量謝謝部長原額法的部分我們辦公室很願意積極做下來邀請教育部跟人總組總一起討論因為這件事情是國家根本的問題如果原額不解決我真的不知道現場還有多少人願意留下來\n\n11:43.841 --> 12:04.571\n接下來我要談教育部最近幾個公共政策造成非常多基層的困擾我相信很多委員問過我就不再贅述但是我想要提醒教育部的整個系統裡面有沒有人去理解到社會溝通基層溝通非常的重要到底發布消息的管道哪裡出了問題到底從中央的美意到了地方變成強迫這件事情中間的落差是什麼\n\n12:05.131 --> 12:30.082\n所以我們都看到你們的說明但我想我就不再贅述這件事情要拜託部長到底我們在跟地方政府溝通出了什麼問題好嗎所以我們就從最近的一個政策來看我等一下來談體育部未來運動部的事情這個是一個關於署長的專訪體育署署長的專訪談到所謂的運動部9月9號掛牌倒數大家最關心的至少是我們辦公室最關心的體育班轉型跟校園開放\n\n12:32.844 --> 13:00.345\n這邊體育署署長在受訪的時候說我們未來要跟國教署合作希望未來一個禮拜裡面從兩天三天四天第七節課可以轉型成運動社團課那這個事情當然就引起很多爭議我們就不再贅述可是我要講的是這個文章看起來讓非常多關心體育班政策的轉型的人問我說這個是跟我們體育班轉型有關係嗎我想要請部長\n\n13:00.927 --> 13:01.357\n回應一下\n\n13:02.953 --> 13:29.889\n一個純粹基本上的精神就是說希望說我們的學生小朋友國中小學生不是每天上課排的滿滿的應該讓他們有一些比如說第七節第一年級有一次的有一天的時間讓他們能夠運動社團或者到操場去跑然後中高年級一個禮拜也許有兩天不要每天把課程塞得滿滿的那這個部分呢\n\n13:33.195 --> 13:54.536\n國教署還編了擔心等於說事實上這些本來他們學校都有排政客那我們希望能不能轉化為一個比較運動休閒有益於青少年小朋友的身心健康本來他是一個好事那而且教育部國教署也編有一些如果你社團的話你要推動幾多不一樣的\n\n13:55.417 --> 14:11.482\n這個社團是對學生是有價值的但是可能學校這個部分沒有這方面專長的老師他還可以給一些聘兼任的老師來指導社團或者體育各方面的運動的活動我想他的這個想法是\n\n14:13.223 --> 14:28.589\n好的而且我們是鼓勵地方也跟22個縣市教育局處所長都談過是剛開始是用這個鼓勵的我們總是要學的東西不可能老師全部教完教滿塞滿我們總要給學生有一個不一樣的一個\n\n14:32.591 --> 14:42.183\n部長你一定不知道我剛剛的擔心從何而來主席你也歡迎你一起看這張投影片的最下面兩句我沒有框起來但是我們的署長是怎麼說的為什麼會讓人誤會以為這個政策跟你未來運動部要做的體育班轉型掛鉤了呢最後這兩句說\n\n14:50.936 --> 15:09.924\n我們的學校專任運動教練考核在國小那一塊把成績歸零要求這些專任運動教練去做社團推動運動推動到時候不只是我們的體育班三點之後如果大家都去參與運動那體育班就沒有存在的必要了學生可以回歸正常的班級上課每個小孩都可以接觸運動社團跟運動訓練\n\n15:12.345 --> 15:23.271\n意思就是說看起來是國教署的事情可是最後拉到體育署甚至拉到未來的運動部對於體育班的正義轉型這件事情我們怎麼能夠不擔心部長\n\n15:24.485 --> 15:50.544\n是這段話但是我剛剛非常尊重部長我讓部長您把剛剛第七集的事情好好地講完了全國人民也都聽見了但是我要講的是我非常非常非常我用了三個非常擔心現在教育部裡面會不會很多幕僚搞不清楚狀況幫忙莫名其妙為未來的運動部背了一個政策的鍋而未來運動部跟教育部在體育班的分工\n\n15:51.872 --> 16:12.132\n他會出現一個多大的落差我們來看下一張頭影片體育班的存在說在某些地方有需要我們試著從六都跟家庭經濟狀況比較好的這些社區縣市開始做如果可以成功轉型就讓他轉型我真的不懂部長我從小是經濟狀況極差極差極差的小孩\n\n16:16.601 --> 16:25.127\n而我的小孩現在因為我跟爸爸的努力他們可以算是家庭經濟狀況好的小孩請問家庭經濟狀況如何跟一個孩子要不要去參加體育班產生關聯\n\n16:26.894 --> 16:45.531\n我們還是用過去黨國時代用衛福社福的想法在看待體育班請問他們要怎麼走出奪牌主義而目前為止我不知道這個鍋誰要背是你們教育部未來要背還是運動部要背如果都沒有人要背那我不知道未來這些體育班的小孩還要繼續如何的為國家犧牲他們黃金珍貴的學習學術科目的時間就只是為了幫國家奪牌\n\n16:51.816 --> 17:16.506\n過去已經有很多選手站出來告訴你們不是只有專家學者在告訴你們連陳傑憲都當面跟賴總統說過體育班要轉型不要再消耗選手了可是在幾次的公開體育署長的受訪裡面我不確定署長們跟部長您報告但是我看到痛心就是這樣剛剛在教師荒的部分我覺得我非常的平和可是講到這個體育班我真的要問我們還要繼續犧牲多少小孩\n\n17:20.427 --> 17:39.906\n而現在竟然講出跟家庭經濟狀況比較好的這些社區開始做那你把我們偏鄉家庭經濟狀況不好的小孩他就該死嗎他就該被放在體育班裡面嗎就只是因為體育班的教練會去找錢找球衣找球鞋然後讓他們放學後有人幫他們做客服所以他們就留在隊上面為學校奪牌為縣市奪牌未來為全國奪牌\n\n17:43.390 --> 18:05.294\n部長我當面跟您討論體育班的事情討論過非常非常多次講到我都覺得會不會你覺得我很煩但是我們沒有在幫孩子發聲的時候會不會九月運動部成立之後有更多的小孩就在兩個部會沒有講清楚情況下被犧牲了跟委員報告我對體育班的看法跟委員是一致的\n\n18:08.922 --> 18:26.504\n我們不希望我們的小朋友從小學就讀體育班他只有打球運動事實上我們希望他在學科的學習在整個身心的發展是一個更正常的更全面性的為什麼今天運動部的成立我覺得他是非常有價值的\n\n18:27.785 --> 18:41.336\n等一下部長我跟你說我完全認同你剛剛講的學科學習跟身心發展對於一個想要投身於運動的孩子來說非常重要二全國人民真的都非常期待運動部我跟你一樣但我現在要講的不是這個大的命題我要講的是\n\n18:45.720 --> 19:10.498\n部長我要拜託你一定要密切的跟體育署現在未來要升格成運動部剩下不到一個月的時間了這中間的討論到底哪一些歸你們教育部在未來未來哪一些歸運動部而中間現在在實務現場可能產生的縫隙我們大人看起來叫做縫隙在資源不足社區環境不足的小孩面前那叫地獄\n\n19:12.315 --> 19:39.775\n我必須要用這麼嚴正的話因為我在偏鄉陪小孩的時間超過十年我要再講一次我們大人我們有資源站在台北講這些話的大人叫做縫隙對於每天在社區在原生家庭裡面被教練逼著走的那些奪牌那些小孩來說那個縫隙叫地獄部長所以我只是要告訴您在相關資訊的銜接上一定出了問題才會導致於我們看下一張投影片現在我們手上拿到的運動部的規劃是長這樣\n\n19:42.536 --> 20:00.267\n競技運動司部長第八項學校體育班制度跟學校專任運動教練政策是規劃法規研修及督導他被放在競技運動司欸有沒有完全是我剛剛講的那一段這些小孩繼續被當工具人繼續犧牲\n\n20:03.359 --> 20:18.564\n然後在這個過程當中他們可能真的不清楚自己什麼權益被犧牲了因為從小沒有人告訴他們原來那個是你的權益我再說一次從小在那個環境威權體制下長大的選手他什麼時候開了視野\n\n20:20.265 --> 20:34.661\n什麼時候有人幫他打開那個眼界他才知道說原來我被犧牲了就如陳潔倩說她是到日本去念書她才知道簡齊生說她到英國還是到國外去遊學的時候在跟外國同學聊天才發現抽血是不對的\n\n20:37.171 --> 21:03.564\n而這樣的現場可能就在我剛剛說的您說是縫隙我說是地獄當中被犧牲第六點全國運動會學生綜合型運動賽事學生運動聯賽之規劃執行之輔導這些聯賽都跟體育班有關都跟選手有關第二項各級優秀競爭運動教練之與選手之選拔四級培育之規劃執行輔導及考核通通都在競技運動室部長你現在知道我為什麼那麼擔心害怕焦慮了嗎\n\n21:06.240 --> 21:18.837\n他一旦一直被框在競技運動私底下我們就不可能走出奪牌思維工具人思維這是很現實的因為業務分工一下去他就是長成像這樣對不對部長\n\n21:21.428 --> 21:40.806\n我想跟委員報告我們運動部的一個成立事實上就是希望全民健康運動成為一種生活的態度然後確保全國人的一個健康那我們看到運動部其實也讓我看到了另外一個機會就是我們看到史丹佛大學去年的奧運他一個\n\n21:41.687 --> 22:10.999\n史丹佛大學的一個這個名校有學生拿了三十幾塊的金銀銅牌這也是我們看到從過去只是強調少數精英的一個運動人才培育我們希望把pool做大讓全民都運動全民事實上包含我們今天所有在會場裡邊所有的不管是官員或者我民意代表有很多人的運動也非常好但是他們沒有選擇往運動那個方向我們總是希望\n\n22:11.559 --> 22:32.101\n大家是健康的但是我們未來的為國家能夠爭取榮耀的已經不是那一個體育班而已他可能是有更多的人我想委員剛才所非常熱心這個關切的我們一定會來深切的來檢討看怎麼樣讓他在未來的一個體育署\n\n22:33.202 --> 22:47.455\n體育組改為運動部的時候能夠真正的能夠照我們的一個理想能夠來逐步來實現謝謝部長那個未及答覆的麻煩就書面答覆陳培委員還沒有有拜託再給我一下下拜託\n\n22:48.456 --> 22:48.836\n謝謝委員提醒這是我們應該做的\n\n23:12.099 --> 23:14.160\n我們之前在台中市棒球體育班大規模性侵之後我們要求教育部要做不適任人員清查制度的破口\n\n23:33.545 --> 23:50.399\n我們要求你們去做這個事情結果回覆出來的一次一次回覆目前確實透過普查查出有35個人是所謂的不適任可是如果沒有去查這些人都還在教育現場但非常可怕的是目前還有台中市新竹縣新竹市南投縣雲林縣沒有回覆\n\n23:51.563 --> 24:14.235\n這個很可怕我剛剛已經實現說了有查才被發現那更何況那些沒有查的會出什麼事情7月15號我們辦公室持續跟教育部人事處開會這件事情可以怎麼做很開心教育部給我們非常積極的回覆說可以做系統跟後台查詢的改良這個事情我們會繼續追查我們希望教育部可以承諾在年底以前完成不適任人員清查監督資訊系統的改良\n\n24:17.837 --> 24:39.358\n第二个定期公告教育部所属跟各县市高中以下学校不适任人员查询的状况还有部长我刚跟你说的迟迟不回的台中市新竹县新竹市南投县云林县请你们继续追踪这些资料可以再跟我们办公室索取好吗好谢谢谢谢主席谢谢陈培宇委员的质询官员请回座\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.349,"end":8.036,"text":"陳培宇委員質詢好 謝謝主席 有請部長請鄭部長備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":17.096,"end":32.625,"text":"委員好部長辛苦了從早上站到現在真的辛苦了我今天問的第一個問題其實叫失慌已經很多人問過了但是我有幾個數字幾個現場的現象然後也跟非常多老師討論我想要反映給部長左邊這張圖部長可能以為是"},{"start":33.826,"end":50.523,"text":"很可愛的梗圖而已但是我要跟部長說很無奈這個是在教育現場學校為了徵老師連老師自己都要來做梗圖徵老師才有可能吸睛才有可能被關注才有可能在網路上有流量讓更多除背中的老師看見來這裡應徵"},{"start":53.125,"end":67.93,"text":"右邊這張圖呢是幾年前親子天下寫的文章說如果可以去護國神山誰要當代理教師而那一年建中發生什麼事情資訊教師找不到但是當時在爭這個資訊教師的時候他還刮胡要兼任圖書館主任"},{"start":69.551,"end":84.186,"text":"那後來到PTT上去發文等到招了13招部長13招才找到人我沒有要講個案部長我再一次強調我沒有要講個案大家都看到教師荒的問題我只是舉其中兩個例子下一張"},{"start":85.748,"end":102.166,"text":"那這個新聞截圖呢其實教育部一直都告訴我們你們有相關這些數字剛剛那個羅廷偉委員在問的時候部長甚至還談到後端師資培育的部分我都聽進去了我們來看一下如果部長用你的邏輯來看現在的數字有問題還是教育部的理解有落差"},{"start":103.047,"end":123.276,"text":"教育部告訴我們新教師六成任教職多元配套確保教學人力這是教育部的新聞稿可是我們看到幾個問題第一個如果按照這個邏輯每一年所取得教師證的人你們認為會有六成甚至越來越提升進入教育現場那我們就要問三成多那四成到哪裡去了"},{"start":124.256,"end":152.535,"text":"為什麼不進教育現場教育現場發生了什麼問題讓這些修了教育學程拿了證甚至可能是本科本系本專任學校所謂師大啦張師大啦這些學校的人都不願意去當老師我認為這個是我們真的要一起面對我不認為是只有教育部的問題我認為所有立法委員所有區域立委聽到民意的都要一起面對關心教育的人都要一起面對所以我很想問到底找不到老師是為什麼當然我們辦公室自己做了研究等一下跟部長討論第二個"},{"start":156.058,"end":175.698,"text":"師資儲備轉換為現場教職員的轉換率其實是非常非常的低的如果按照這個邏輯大家都不來當老師所以當然就出現教師荒而且以前是只有代理代課教師荒現在連正式教師也出現教師荒我相信您的幕僚一定有給您數字而且今天已經來到八月多了"},{"start":176.138,"end":189.186,"text":"各個縣市開圈應徵報到的狀況你可能也大略有所掌握我必須要說這些數字可能都很驚人教育部目前為止有沒有因應之道我等一下想請部長一起回答下一張"},{"start":191.158,"end":205.637,"text":"我想要講的是一定有一些原因導致於大家不想當正式老師也不想當代理老師到底教育部這幾年的解決方案如同部長你說的你沒有解決方案可是落地之後到底發生了什麼事情"},{"start":206.118,"end":222.937,"text":"我們來看這個數字這個數字是你們給我的部長我們辦公室跟你們所知我跟部長討論一下最左邊這一張呢是依照教育部的統計資料國小教師的總人數越來越多當然是有很多正式老師從代理代課老師上岸變正式老師可是教育現場一樣出現另外一個問題中間這張投影片紅色的字"},{"start":227.102,"end":229.503,"text":"從110學年度5594人到112學年度8999人這些紅色的數字是所謂的無證代理教室"},{"start":240.68,"end":263.577,"text":"部長無證這件事情我並沒有要指控所有無證的老師都不專業無證的老師沒有熱情搞不好這些無證的代理教師比現場有證九任的老師還要有熱情還要有專業可是在現在教師荒的情況之下很多縣市很多學校不得不打開門十招二十招三十招拜託"},{"start":264.358,"end":287.996,"text":"只要有人願意進學校教書就算沒有證他大學畢業他就可以進來而部長110 112上升了將近60%欸我們的家長如果看到這個數字他會問部長我的小孩是被沒有證的老師教喔你們要怎麼保證教學品質你們要怎麼保障孩子的受教權益我認為所有家長都會焦慮"},{"start":290.043,"end":310.043,"text":"這個數字可能你的幕僚沒有讓你知道但是我們這個是透過公開的公文所知不找這個數字我真的很害怕我們都是來自教育基層我們都在基層待過所以我們一定可以想見無證的狀況跟有證的狀況會發生截然不同的困境但這個困境我們教育部的因應對策是什麼"},{"start":311.404,"end":333.305,"text":"這也是真的讓我很擔心的吳政 我剛剛講吳政我就不再多說了吳政的狀況我相信部長應該知道我們辦公室試著跟非常非常非常多地方教師跟學會跟工會也跟家長討論部長我想要提出一些可能的解方因為今天早上到目前為止有非常多人都跟你講了他們遇到的困境他們從地方收集到的意見"},{"start":334.486,"end":349.425,"text":"有一件事情其實教育部從108課綱上路到現在六七年了一直在逃避面對的問題但是我認為從潘部長到您一定聽過有現場老師告訴你教育部要不要修園而法"},{"start":350.717,"end":357.166,"text":"原額法有機會動教育現場的困境才能解決因為部長他是一個基生誕誕生期的問題我解釋給您聽如果我今天在教育現場因為108課綱所有的高中老師他額外備課的那些時間你們都沒有算原額給他"},{"start":368.101,"end":388.828,"text":"幫忙cover行政的時間也沒有算時數給他所以現場的老師不僅行政增量他們連教學要備課的時間你們都沒有算給他所以所有的老師在準備那些高中為了應付大學考試額外108多出來那些課程都算入他的時數可是你們沒有多人給他所以每一個老師的超時你們怎麼解決400塊500塊終點費解決"},{"start":392.984,"end":399.908,"text":"不是錢的問題部長每一個人都有自己的生活而老師現在幾乎超超超超時上班6點8點9點10點"},{"start":402.188,"end":422.449,"text":"只要有熱情有愛對孩子有負責任心的老師都會願意留下來但長期以來耗損的是這些還有愛還有心留在現場的老師所有的老師都告訴我們你源而法跟著108課綱的改變沒有做出改變才是造成現在沒有人敢再走進教育現場最大的原因我知道源而法一動就會動到錢"},{"start":426.155,"end":454.337,"text":"去年才化法又通過了很多錢會到地方去部長我拜託你我要跟你說很多這些錢是地方政府必須要去負擔的教育部要拿出你的肩膀拿出你的勇氣告訴這些執政縣市首長你花在教育端的錢如同剛羅廷偉委員說的不能信你就不能信不能站你就不能站不能逃你就不能逃所以未來各個執政縣市要不要去面對跟你教育部"},{"start":454.758,"end":463.199,"text":"坐下來討論原額法我認為是要的這件事情才能根本的解決現場教師荒的問題"},{"start":464.702,"end":489.487,"text":"行政再怎麼減量各部會還是發公文給學校行政再怎麼減量家長還是半夜打電話給老師行政再怎麼減量孩子的身心狀況在現場還是需要所有老師一起接觸更不要講現場還有太多不適應的老師是在拖垮現場認真的老師所以如果我們可以讓現場工作人他們合理的減低他們的工作量透過增加員額這件事情真的才能根本的解決"},{"start":490.547,"end":502.339,"text":"第二個 回過頭來教師的薪資調整這件事情我認為一定很多人跟你講過了 部長但是我知道教育部經費有限署長你讓我先講完再跟部長報告好不好"},{"start":504.751,"end":529.6,"text":"我們非常負責任想要提出解方因為指責大家都會可是如果你真心我們辦公室是真的真心想要跟教育部站在一起跟老師們站在一起跟家長站在一起繼而跟學生站在一起所有的困境是我剛剛講的現場的人都要承擔最後是教育部要來承擔回來談提升教職員薪資這件事情我們認為現在的教職員薪資確實要好好商議"},{"start":530.941,"end":540.042,"text":"從校長到主任到現場老師到代理代課老師甚至連特教助理員大家都是因為錢的問題可是現在面對"},{"start":541.778,"end":563.273,"text":"各式各樣社會環境變動經濟因素變動的關係都導致於薪資這件事情真的不是誘因啦部長好 再來落實行政減量這個很多人都講過我就不再講提升教師支持系統有非常多的老師一直在告訴我們家庭教育出了問題所有很多不該不該歸老師扛的通通怪老師"},{"start":564.654,"end":587.155,"text":"孩子們的困境也要找老師家長不會教小孩也要找老師我要談的是整個行政系統的支援真的需要部長您大迫大力有非常多人一定給過您建言如何引進新的思維如何找一兩所關鍵學校開始試辦所謂大迫大力"},{"start":587.936,"end":605.195,"text":"我認為這是大家對部長您的期待所以我花了這麼多力氣談解方其實最重要還是回到原額這件事情所以我要提醒財化法下去之後現在你們已經在編預算了我不確定你們編的預算是有財化法新版還是沒有財化法新版"},{"start":605.876,"end":630.576,"text":"可是我們都知道很多地方的老師的薪水要地方來支付很多地方教育的支出要地方政府來支付我不確定教育部有沒有開始在事權分立這件事情跟縣市政府討論如果有請拜託把我這些談的事情做下來跟地方政府好好說哪些該中央出的哪些該地方負責的哪些該地方去監督的哪些該中央政府有法規的我認為"},{"start":632.097,"end":640.555,"text":"所有的推脫最後受害的是小孩是家長是老師所以我們辦公室很負責任提出解放拜託部長好嗎"},{"start":642.396,"end":661.425,"text":"謝謝委員的這個不但是發現問題理解問題而且還有一些具體的一些建議我想都非常有價值我們教育部一定會把這些來跟地方看特別剛才提到的顏額就是我們現在的一個小學的顏額大概1.65偏鄉我們是給2.0國中是這個2.2偏鄉是給3.0"},{"start":668.248,"end":681.277,"text":"那這樣是不是能夠支撐到我們現在的大家對教育包括人才培育包括整個社會的一個變遷上所面臨的挑戰包含薪水等等的我想它是一個整體結構上我想我們會認真地很嚴肅地來跟"},{"start":685.28,"end":702.98,"text":"地方來一起來共同來思考看怎麼樣能夠形成一個支持的力量謝謝部長 原額法的部分我們辦公室很願意積極做下來邀請教育部跟人總 組總一起討論因為這件事情是國家根本的問題如果原額不解決我真的不知道現場還有多少人願意留下來"},{"start":703.841,"end":724.571,"text":"接下來我要談教育部最近幾個公共政策造成非常多基層的困擾我相信很多委員問過我就不再贅述但是我想要提醒教育部的整個系統裡面有沒有人去理解到社會溝通基層溝通非常的重要到底發布消息的管道哪裡出了問題到底從中央的美意到了地方變成強迫這件事情中間的落差是什麼"},{"start":725.131,"end":750.082,"text":"所以我們都看到你們的說明但我想我就不再贅述這件事情要拜託部長到底我們在跟地方政府溝通出了什麼問題好嗎所以我們就從最近的一個政策來看我等一下來談體育部未來運動部的事情這個是一個關於署長的專訪體育署署長的專訪談到所謂的運動部9月9號掛牌倒數大家最關心的至少是我們辦公室最關心的體育班轉型跟校園開放"},{"start":752.844,"end":780.345,"text":"這邊體育署署長在受訪的時候說我們未來要跟國教署合作希望未來一個禮拜裡面從兩天三天四天第七節課可以轉型成運動社團課那這個事情當然就引起很多爭議我們就不再贅述可是我要講的是這個文章看起來讓非常多關心體育班政策的轉型的人問我說這個是跟我們體育班轉型有關係嗎我想要請部長"},{"start":780.927,"end":781.357,"text":"回應一下"},{"start":782.953,"end":809.889,"text":"一個純粹基本上的精神就是說希望說我們的學生小朋友國中小學生不是每天上課排的滿滿的應該讓他們有一些比如說第七節第一年級有一次的有一天的時間讓他們能夠運動社團或者到操場去跑然後中高年級一個禮拜也許有兩天不要每天把課程塞得滿滿的那這個部分呢"},{"start":813.195,"end":834.536,"text":"國教署還編了擔心等於說事實上這些本來他們學校都有排政客那我們希望能不能轉化為一個比較運動休閒有益於青少年小朋友的身心健康本來他是一個好事那而且教育部國教署也編有一些如果你社團的話你要推動幾多不一樣的"},{"start":835.417,"end":851.482,"text":"這個社團是對學生是有價值的但是可能學校這個部分沒有這方面專長的老師他還可以給一些聘兼任的老師來指導社團或者體育各方面的運動的活動我想他的這個想法是"},{"start":853.223,"end":868.589,"text":"好的而且我們是鼓勵地方也跟22個縣市教育局處所長都談過是剛開始是用這個鼓勵的我們總是要學的東西不可能老師全部教完教滿塞滿我們總要給學生有一個不一樣的一個"},{"start":872.591,"end":882.183,"text":"部長你一定不知道我剛剛的擔心從何而來主席你也歡迎你一起看這張投影片的最下面兩句我沒有框起來但是我們的署長是怎麼說的為什麼會讓人誤會以為這個政策跟你未來運動部要做的體育班轉型掛鉤了呢最後這兩句說"},{"start":890.936,"end":909.924,"text":"我們的學校專任運動教練考核在國小那一塊把成績歸零要求這些專任運動教練去做社團推動運動推動到時候不只是我們的體育班三點之後如果大家都去參與運動那體育班就沒有存在的必要了學生可以回歸正常的班級上課每個小孩都可以接觸運動社團跟運動訓練"},{"start":912.345,"end":923.271,"text":"意思就是說看起來是國教署的事情可是最後拉到體育署甚至拉到未來的運動部對於體育班的正義轉型這件事情我們怎麼能夠不擔心部長"},{"start":924.485,"end":950.544,"text":"是這段話 但是我剛剛非常尊重部長我讓部長您把剛剛第七集的事情好好地講完了全國人民也都聽見了但是我要講的是我非常非常非常我用了三個非常擔心現在教育部裡面會不會很多幕僚搞不清楚狀況幫忙莫名其妙為未來的運動部背了一個政策的鍋而未來運動部跟教育部在體育班的分工"},{"start":951.872,"end":972.132,"text":"他會出現一個多大的落差我們來看下一張頭影片體育班的存在說在某些地方有需要我們試著從六都跟家庭經濟狀況比較好的這些社區縣市開始做如果可以成功轉型就讓他轉型我真的不懂部長我從小是經濟狀況極差極差極差的小孩"},{"start":976.601,"end":985.127,"text":"而我的小孩現在因為我跟爸爸的努力他們可以算是家庭經濟狀況好的小孩請問家庭經濟狀況如何跟一個孩子要不要去參加體育班產生關聯"},{"start":986.894,"end":1005.531,"text":"我們還是用過去黨國時代用衛福社福的想法在看待體育班請問他們要怎麼走出奪牌主義而目前為止我不知道這個鍋誰要背是你們教育部未來要背還是運動部要背如果都沒有人要背那我不知道未來這些體育班的小孩還要繼續如何的為國家犧牲他們黃金珍貴的學習學術科目的時間就只是為了幫國家奪牌"},{"start":1011.816,"end":1036.506,"text":"過去已經有很多選手站出來告訴你們不是只有專家學者在告訴你們連陳傑憲都當面跟賴總統說過體育班要轉型不要再消耗選手了可是在幾次的公開體育署長的受訪裡面我不確定署長們跟部長您報告但是我看到痛心就是這樣剛剛在教師荒的部分我覺得我非常的平和可是講到這個體育班我真的要問我們還要繼續犧牲多少小孩"},{"start":1040.427,"end":1059.906,"text":"而現在竟然講出跟家庭經濟狀況比較好的這些社區開始做那你把我們偏鄉家庭經濟狀況不好的小孩他就該死嗎他就該被放在體育班裡面嗎就只是因為體育班的教練會去找錢找球衣 找球鞋然後讓他們放學後有人幫他們做客服所以他們就留在隊上面為學校奪牌 為縣市奪牌未來為全國奪牌"},{"start":1063.39,"end":1085.294,"text":"部長我當面跟您討論體育班的事情討論過非常非常多次講到我都覺得會不會你覺得我很煩但是我們沒有在幫孩子發聲的時候會不會九月運動部成立之後有更多的小孩就在兩個部會沒有講清楚情況下被犧牲了跟委員報告我對體育班的看法跟委員是一致的"},{"start":1088.922,"end":1106.504,"text":"我們不希望我們的小朋友從小學就讀體育班他只有打球運動事實上我們希望他在學科的學習在整個身心的發展是一個更正常的更全面性的為什麼今天運動部的成立我覺得他是非常有價值的"},{"start":1107.785,"end":1121.336,"text":"等一下部長我跟你說我完全認同你剛剛講的學科學習跟身心發展對於一個想要投身於運動的孩子來說非常重要二 全國人民真的都非常期待運動部 我跟你一樣但我現在要講的不是這個大的命題我要講的是"},{"start":1125.72,"end":1150.498,"text":"部長我要拜託你一定要密切的跟體育署現在未來要升格成運動部剩下不到一個月的時間了這中間的討論到底哪一些歸你們教育部在未來未來哪一些歸運動部而中間現在在實務現場可能產生的縫隙我們大人看起來叫做縫隙在資源不足社區環境不足的小孩面前那叫地獄"},{"start":1152.315,"end":1179.775,"text":"我必須要用這麼嚴正的話因為我在偏鄉陪小孩的時間超過十年我要再講一次我們大人我們有資源站在台北講這些話的大人叫做縫隙對於每天在社區在原生家庭裡面被教練逼著走的那些奪牌那些小孩來說那個縫隙叫地獄部長所以我只是要告訴您在相關資訊的銜接上一定出了問題才會導致於我們看下一張投影片現在我們手上拿到的運動部的規劃是長這樣"},{"start":1182.536,"end":1200.267,"text":"競技運動司部長第八項學校體育班制度跟學校專任運動教練政策是規劃法規研修及督導他被放在競技運動司欸有沒有完全是我剛剛講的那一段這些小孩繼續被當工具人繼續犧牲"},{"start":1203.359,"end":1218.564,"text":"然後在這個過程當中他們可能真的不清楚自己什麼權益被犧牲了因為從小沒有人告訴他們原來那個是你的權益我再說一次從小在那個環境威權體制下長大的選手他什麼時候開了視野"},{"start":1220.265,"end":1234.661,"text":"什麼時候有人幫他打開那個眼界他才知道說原來我被犧牲了就如陳潔倩說她是到日本去念書她才知道簡齊生說她到英國還是到國外去遊學的時候在跟外國同學聊天才發現抽血是不對的"},{"start":1237.171,"end":1263.564,"text":"而這樣的現場可能就在我剛剛說的您說是縫隙我說是地獄當中被犧牲第六點全國運動會學生綜合型運動賽事學生運動聯賽之規劃執行之輔導這些聯賽都跟體育班有關都跟選手有關第二項各級優秀競爭運動教練之與選手之選拔四級培育之規劃執行輔導及考核通通都在競技運動室部長你現在知道我為什麼那麼擔心害怕焦慮了嗎"},{"start":1266.24,"end":1278.837,"text":"他一旦一直被框在競技運動私底下我們就不可能走出奪牌思維工具人思維這是很現實的因為業務分工一下去他就是長成像這樣對不對 部長"},{"start":1281.428,"end":1300.806,"text":"我想跟委員報告我們運動部的一個成立事實上就是希望全民健康運動成為一種生活的態度然後確保全國人的一個健康那我們看到運動部其實也讓我看到了另外一個機會就是我們看到史丹佛大學去年的奧運他一個"},{"start":1301.687,"end":1330.999,"text":"史丹佛大學的一個這個名校有學生拿了三十幾塊的金銀銅牌這也是我們看到從過去只是強調少數精英的一個運動人才培育我們希望把pool做大讓全民都運動全民事實上包含我們今天所有在會場裡邊所有的不管是官員或者我民意代表有很多人的運動也非常好但是他們沒有選擇往運動那個方向我們總是希望"},{"start":1331.559,"end":1352.101,"text":"大家是健康的但是我們未來的為國家能夠爭取榮耀的已經不是那一個體育班而已他可能是有更多的人我想委員剛才所非常熱心這個關切的我們一定會來深切的來檢討看怎麼樣讓他在未來的一個體育署"},{"start":1353.202,"end":1367.455,"text":"體育組改為運動部的時候能夠真正的能夠照我們的一個理想能夠來逐步來實現謝謝部長那個未及答覆的麻煩就書面答覆陳培委員還沒有有拜託再給我一下下拜託"},{"start":1368.456,"end":1368.836,"text":"謝謝委員提醒 這是我們應該做的"},{"start":1392.099,"end":1394.16,"text":"我們之前在台中市棒球體育班大規模性侵之後我們要求教育部要做不適任人員清查制度的破口"},{"start":1413.545,"end":1430.399,"text":"我們要求你們去做這個事情結果回覆出來的一次一次回覆目前確實透過普查查出有35個人是所謂的不適任可是如果沒有去查這些人都還在教育現場但非常可怕的是目前還有台中市新竹縣新竹市南投縣雲林縣沒有回覆"},{"start":1431.563,"end":1454.235,"text":"這個很可怕我剛剛已經實現說了有查才被發現那更何況那些沒有查的會出什麼事情7月15號我們辦公室持續跟教育部人事處開會這件事情可以怎麼做很開心教育部給我們非常積極的回覆說可以做系統跟後台查詢的改良這個事情我們會繼續追查我們希望教育部可以承諾在年底以前完成不適任人員清查監督資訊系統的改良"},{"start":1457.837,"end":1479.358,"text":"第二个定期公告教育部所属跟各县市高中以下学校不适任人员查询的状况还有部长我刚跟你说的迟迟不回的台中市新竹县新竹市南投县云林县请你们继续追踪这些资料可以再跟我们办公室索取好吗好谢谢谢谢主席谢谢陈培宇委员的质询官员请回座"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":968,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（13時4分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長備質詢，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長辛苦了，從早上站到現在，真的辛苦了。我今天要問的第一個問題是關於教師荒，其實已經很多人問過了，但是我有幾個數字、幾個現場的現象，也跟非常多的老師討論，我想要反映給部長。左邊這張圖，部長可能以為是很可愛的梗圖而已，但我要跟部長說，很無奈！這個是在教育現場，學校為了徵老師，連老師自己都要來做梗圖徵老師，才有可能吸睛、才有可能被關注、才有可能在網路上有流量，讓更多儲備中的老師看見之後來這裡應徵。右邊這張圖是幾年前親子天下寫的文章，「如果可以去護國神山，誰要當代理教師？」而那一年建中發生什麼事情？找不到資訊教師，但是當時在徵資訊教師的時候，他們還括弧要兼任圖書館主任，後來到PTT上去發文，等到招了13招……部長，13招才找到人；我沒有要講個案，部長，我再次強調，我沒有要講個案，大家都看到教師荒的問題，我只是舉其中兩個例子。","看下一張簡報的新聞截圖，其實教育部一直都告訴我們，你們有相關的這些數字，剛剛羅廷瑋委員在問的時候，部長甚至還談到後端師資培育的部分，我都聽進去了，我們來看一下，如果用部長你的邏輯來看，現在的數字有問題，還是教育部的理解有落差？教育部告訴我們，新教師六成任教職，多元配套確保教學人力，這是教育部的新聞稿，可是我們看到幾個問題，第一個，如果按照這個邏輯，每一年取得教師證的人，你們認為會有六成，甚至越來越提升，進入到教育現場，那我們就要問，三成多跟四成到哪裡去了？為什麼不進教育現場？教育現場發生什麼問題，讓這些修了教育學程、拿了證，甚至可能是本科、本系、本專任學校，所謂師大、彰師大這些學校的人都不願意去當老師？我認為這真的是我們要一起面對的，我不認為是只有教育部的問題，我認為所有立法委員、所有區域立委，聽到民意的都要一起面對，關心教育的人都要一起面對。所以我很想問，到底找不到老師是為什麼？我們辦公室自己做了研究，等一下跟部長討論。","第二個，師資儲備轉換為現場教職員的轉換率其實是非常非常低的，如果按照這個邏輯，大家都不來當老師，當然就出現教師荒，而且以前是只有代理代課教師荒，現在連正式教師也出現教師荒，我相信您的幕僚一定有給您數字，而且今天已經來到8月多了，各個縣市開缺應徵報到的狀況，你可能也大略有所掌握，我必須要說，這些數字可能都很驚人，教育部目前為止有沒有因應之道？我等一下想要請部長一起回答。","下一張簡報，我想要講的是，一定有一些原因導致大家不想當正式老師，也不想當代理老師，到底教育部這幾年的解決方案，如同部長說的，你們有解決方案，可是落地之後到底發生了什麼事情？我們來看這個數字，部長，這個數字是你們給我的，我們辦公室跟你們索資。我跟部長討論一下，最左邊這一張是依照教育部的統計資料，國小教師的總人數越來越多，當然是因為有很多正式老師從代理代課老師上岸變成正式老師，可是教育現場一樣出現另外一個問題，中間這張投影片上紅色的字，從110學年度5,594人到112學年度8,999人，這些紅色數字是所謂的無證代理教師。部長，關於無證這件事情，我並沒有要指控所有無證的老師都不專業、無證的老師沒有熱情，搞不好這些無證的代理教師比現場有證、久任的老師還要有熱情，還要有專業，可是在現在教師荒的情況之下，很多縣市、很多學校不得不打開門，10招、20招、30招。拜託，只要有人願意進學校教書，就算沒有證，他大學畢業就可以進來。部長，110年到112年上升了將近百分之六十，家長如果看到這個數字，他會問：部長，我的小孩是被沒有證的老師教喔？你們要怎麼保證教學品質？你們要怎麼保障孩子的受教權益？我認為所有家長都會焦慮，這個數字可能你的幕僚沒有讓你知道，但我們是透過公開的公文索資。部長，這個數字我真的很害怕，我們都是來自教育基層，我們都在基層待過，所以我們一定可以想見無證跟有證的狀況會發生截然不同的困境，對於這個困境，教育部的因應對策是什麼？這也真的是讓我很擔心的。","我剛剛講無證，我就不再多說了，無證的狀況，我相信部長應該知道。我們辦公室試著跟非常非常多的地方教師、學會、工會及家長討論，部長，我想要提出一些可能的解方，因為今天早上到目前為止，有非常多人都跟你講他們遇到的困境，他們從地方收集到的意見，有一件事情其實是教育部從108課綱上路到現在六、七年了，一直在逃避面對的問題，但是我認為從潘部長到您一定聽過有現場老師告訴你，教育部要不要修員額法，員額法有機會動，教育現場的困境才能解決。部長，因為它是一個雞生蛋、蛋生雞的問題，我解釋給您聽。如果我今天在教育現場，因為108課綱所有的高中老師額外備課的時間，你們都沒有算員額給他，他要幫忙cover行政的時間，也沒有算時數給他，現場的老師不僅行政增量，他們連教學要備課的時間你們都沒有算給他，所有的老師在準備那些高中為了應付大學考試108課綱額外多出來的課程，都算入他的時數，可是你們沒有多給他人，請問每一個老師的超時，你們怎麼解決？四百塊、五百塊鐘點費解決，不是錢的問題，部長。每一個人都有自己的生活，而老師現在幾乎超時上班到六點、八點、九點、十點，只要有熱情、有愛、對孩子有責任心的老師都會願意留下來，但長期以來耗損的是這些還有愛、還有心留在現場的老師。所有的老師都告訴我們，員額法沒有跟著108課綱的改變而做出改變，才是造成現在沒有人敢再走進教育現場最大的原因。我知道員額法一動就會動到錢，去年財劃法又通過了，很多錢會到地方去，部長，我拜託你，我要跟你說，這些錢很多是地方政府必須要去負擔的，教育部要拿出你的肩膀、拿出你的勇氣，告訴這些執政縣市首長，你花在教育端的錢，如同剛剛羅廷瑋委員說的不能省就是不能省，不能偷你就是不能偷，所以未來各個執政縣市要不要跟你教育部坐下來討論員額法？我認為是要的，這件事情才能根本解決現場教師荒的問題。行政再怎麼減量，各部會還是發公文給學校；行政再怎麼減量，家長還是半夜打電話給老師；行政再怎麼減量，孩子的身心狀況在現場還是需要所有老師一起接觸，更不要講現場還有太多不適任的老師是在拖垮現場認真的老師。所以如果我們可以合理的減低現場工作人員的工作量，透過增加員額才能真的根本解決。","第二個，回過頭來談教師薪資調整這件事情，我認為一定很多人跟你講過了，部長，但是我知道教育部經費有限。署長，你讓我先講完，再跟部長報告，好不好？我們非常負責任的想要提出解方，因為指責大家都會，可是如果你真心，我們辦公室是真心想要跟教育部站在一起、跟老師們站在一起、跟家長站在一起，繼而跟學生站在一起，所有的困境是我剛剛講的現場的人都要承擔，最後是教育部要來承擔。回來談提升教職員薪資這件事情，我們認為現在的教職員薪資確實要好好商議，從校長到主任、到現場老師、到代理、代課老師，甚至連特教助理員，大家都是因為錢的問題，現在面對各式各樣社會環境變動、經濟因素變動的關係，都導致薪資真的不是誘因，部長。","再來，落實行政減量，這個很多人都講過，我就不再講。提升教師支持系統，有非常多的老師一直在告訴我們，家庭教育出了問題，很多不該歸老師扛的通通怪老師，孩子們的困境要找老師，家長不會教小孩也要找老師，我要談的是整個行政系統的支援，真的需要部長您大破大立。有非常多人一定給過您建言，如何引進新的思維，如何找一、兩所關鍵學校開始試辦，所謂大破大立，我認為這是大家對部長您的期待，所以我花了這麼多力氣談解方，其實最重要的還是回到員額這件事情。我要提醒，財劃法下去之後，現在你們已經在編預算了，我不確定你們編的預算是有財劃法新版還是沒有財劃法新版，可是我們都知道，很多地方老師的薪水要地方來支付，很多地方的教育支出要地方政府來支付，我不確定教育部有沒有開始就事權分立這件事情跟縣市政府討論，如果有，拜託把我談的這些事情，坐下來跟地方政府好好說，哪些是該中央出的、哪些是該地方負責的、哪些該地方去監督的、哪些該中央政府有法規的，我認為所有的推託，最後受害的是小孩、是家長、是老師，所以我們辦公室很負責任的提出解方，拜託部長！好嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的意見，這不但是發現問題、理解問題，而且還有一些具體的建議，我想都非常有價值，我們教育部一定會把這些意見來跟地方談，特別剛才提到的員額，其實我們現在一個小學的員額大概1.65，偏鄉我們是給2.0，國中是2.2，偏鄉是給3.0，這樣是不是能夠支撐到大家對教育包括人才培育，包括整個社會的變遷所面臨的挑戰，包含薪水等等的，我想它是一個整體結構，我們會認真地、很嚴肅地跟地方一起來共同思考，看怎麼樣能夠形成一個支持的力量給老師……"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝部長，員額法的部分我們辦公室很願意積極邀請教育部跟人總、主總一起討論，因為這件事情是國家根本的問題，如果員額不解決，我真的不知道現場還有多少人願意留下來。","接下來我要談教育部最近幾個公共政策造成非常多基層的困擾，我相信很多委員問過，我就不再贅述，但是我想要提醒教育部整個系統裡面有沒有人理解到社會溝通、基層溝通非常的重要，到底發布消息的管道哪裡出了問題？到底中央的美意到了地方變成強迫這件事情，中間的落差是什麼？我們都看到你們的說明，我就不再贅述，這件事情要拜託部長去了解到底我們在跟地方政府溝通時出了什麼問題，好嗎？我們就從最近的一個政策來看，我等一下要談未來運動部的事情，這是一個關於體育署署長的專訪，談到運動部9月9號掛牌倒數，大家最關心的至少是我們辦公室最關心的體育班轉型跟校園開放，體育署署長在受訪的時候說，我們未來要跟國教署合作，希望未來一個禮拜裡面，從兩天、三天、四天第七節課可以轉型成運動社團課，這個事情當然就引起很多爭議，我們就不再贅述。可是我要講的是，這個文章看起來讓非常多關心體育班政策轉型的人問我說，這跟我們體育班轉型有關係嗎？我想要請部長回應一下。"],["鄭部長英耀：一個純粹、基本上的精神就是希望我們的國中、小學生，不是每天上課，排得滿滿的，應該讓他們比如第七節低年級有一些時間讓他們能夠運動、參加社團，或者到操場去跑，然後中高年級一個禮拜也許有兩天，不要每天把課程塞得滿滿的。這個部分事實上本來學校都有排正課，那我們希望能轉化為一個比較運動、休閒、有益於青少年、小朋友身心健康的活動，本來是一件好事，而且教育部、國教署也編有一些……如果學校要推動許多不一樣的社團，對學生是有價值的，但是可能學校在這部分沒有這方面專長的老師，還可以有經費聘兼任老師來指導社團或體育各方面的運動、活動。我想他的想法是好的，而且我們是鼓勵地方，也跟22個縣市教育局處首長都談過，剛開始是用鼓勵的，我們要學的東西，老師總是不可能全部教完、教滿、塞滿，我們總要給學生有一個不一樣的學習……"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，你一定不知道我剛剛的擔心從何而來，主席，也歡迎你一起看。這張投影片最下面兩句，我沒有框起來，但是我們的署長是怎麼說的？為什麼會讓人誤會以為這個政策跟你未來運動部要做的體育班轉型掛鉤了呢？最後這兩句說，我們的學校專任運動教練的考核在國小那一塊，把成績歸零，要求這些專任運動教練去做社團推動、運動推動，到時候不只是我們的體育班，三點之後如果大家都去參與運動，那體育班就沒有存在的必要了，學生可以回歸正常的班級上課，每個小孩都可以接觸運動社團跟運動訓練。意思就是看起來是國教署的事情，可是最後拉到體育署，甚至拉到未來的運動部。對於體育班的正義轉型這件事情，我們怎麼能夠不擔心？部長！是這一段話。但是我剛剛非常尊重部長，我讓部長把剛剛第七節的事情好好的講完了，全國人民也都聽見了，但是我要講的是，我非常、非常、非常擔心，我用了三個非常擔心，現在教育部裡面會不會很多幕僚搞不清楚狀況，莫名其妙為未來的運動部背了一個政策的鍋，而未來運動部跟教育部在體育班的分工，它會出現一個多大的落差？體育班的存在，說在某些地方有需要，我們試著從六都跟家庭經濟狀況比較好的這些社區、縣市開始做，如果可以成功轉型，就讓它轉型。我真的不懂，部長，我從小是經濟狀況極差、極差、極差的小孩，而我的小孩現在因為我跟爸爸的努力，他們可以算是家庭經濟狀況好的小孩。請問家庭經濟狀況如何跟一個孩子要不要去參加體育班產生關聯？我們還是用過去黨國時代，用衛福、社福的想法在看待體育班，請問他們要怎麼走出奪牌主義？而目前為止，我不知道這個鍋誰要背？是你們教育部未來要背，還是運動部要背？如果都沒有人要背，我不知道未來這些體育班的小孩還要繼續如何的為國家犧牲他們黃金珍貴的學習學術科目的時間，就只是為了幫國家奪牌，過去已經有很多選手站出來告訴你們，不是只有專家學者在告訴你們，連陳傑憲都當面跟賴總統說過體育班要轉型，不要再消耗選手了。可是在幾次體育署長公開的受訪裡面，我不確定署長有沒有跟部長您報告，但是我看到痛心就是這樣。","剛剛在談教師荒的部分，我覺得我非常的平和，可是講到這個體育班，我真的要問，我們還要繼續犧牲多少小孩？而現在竟然講出跟家庭經濟狀況比較好的這些社區開始做，那麼偏鄉家庭經濟狀況不好的小孩，他就該死嗎？他就該被放在體育班裡面嗎？就只是因為體育班的教練會去找錢、找球衣、找球鞋，然後讓他們放學後有人幫他們做課輔，所以他們就留在隊上面，為學校奪牌、為縣市奪牌，未來為全國奪牌？部長，我當面跟您討論體育班的事情，討論過非常、非常多次，講到我都覺得會不會你覺得我很煩，但是我們沒有在幫孩子發聲的時候，會不會9月運動部成立之後，有更多的小孩就在兩個部會沒有講清楚的情況下被犧牲了？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我對體育班的看法跟委員是一致的，我們不希望我們的小朋友從小學就讀體育班，他只有打球、運動，事實上我們希望他在學科的學習、在整個身心的發展，是一個更正常的、更全面性的。為什麼今天運動部的成立，我覺得它是非常有價值的，我們光看到……"],["陳委員培瑜：等一下，部長，我跟你說，我完全認同你講的學科學習跟身心發展對於一個想要投身於運動的孩子來說，非常重要；二，全國人民真的都非常期待運動部，我跟你一樣。但我現在要講的不是這個大的命題，我要講的是，部長，我要拜託，你一定要密切的跟體育署討論，未來要升格成運動部，剩下不到一個月的時間了，這中間的討論，未來到底哪一些歸你們教育部？未來哪一些歸運動部？而中間現在在實務現場可能產生的縫隙，我們大人看起來叫做縫隙，在資源不足、社區環境不足的小孩面前，那叫地獄，我必須要用這麼嚴正的話，因為我在偏鄉陪小孩的時間超過10年。我要再講一次，我們這些有資源站在臺北講這些話的大人叫做縫隙，對於每天在社區、在原生家庭裡面，對被教練逼著走、逼著奪牌的那些小孩來說，那個縫隙叫地獄。部長，我只是要告訴您，在相關資訊的銜接上一定出了問題，才會導致於這樣的狀況，現在我們手上拿到運動部的規劃是長這樣，競技運動司，第八項「學校體育班制度與學校專任運動教練政策之規劃、法規研修及督導」，它被放在競技運動司，有沒有完全是我剛剛講的那一段？這些小孩繼續被當工具人、繼續犧牲，然後在這個過程當中，他們可能真的不清楚自己什麼權益被犧牲了，因為從小沒有人告訴他們原來那個是你的權益。我再說一次，從小在那個環境、威權體制下長大的選手，他什麼時候開了視野、什麼時候有人幫他打開那個眼界，他才知道原來他被犧牲了，就如陳傑憲說他是到日本去念書，他才知道；簡奇陞說他到英國還是到國外去遊學的時候，在跟外國同學聊天，才發現抽血是不對的。而這樣的現場可能就在我剛剛說的，您說是縫隙，我說是地獄，在這當中被犧牲。第六點「全國運動會、學生綜合型運動賽事與學生運動聯賽之規劃、執行及輔導」，這些聯賽都跟體育班有關、都跟選手有關。第二項「各級優秀競技運動教練與選手之選拔、四級培育之規劃、執行輔導及考核。」通通都在競技運動司。部長，你現在知道我為什麼那麼擔心、害怕、焦慮了嗎？它一旦一直被框在競技運動司底下，我們就不可能走出奪牌思維、工具人思維，這是很現實的，因為業務分工一下去，它就是長成像這樣，對不對？部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：我想跟委員報告，運動部的成立事實上就是希望全民健康，運動成為一種生活的態度，然後確保國人的健康。我們看到運動部，其實也讓我看到了另外一個機會，就是我們看到史丹佛大學在去年的奧運，史丹佛大學這個名校的學生拿了三十幾塊金、銀、銅牌，這也是我們看到從過去只是強調少數菁英運動人才培育，我們希望把pool做大，讓全民都運動，全民事實上包含我們今天所有在會場裡面，不管是官員或者民意代表，有很多人的運動也非常好，但是他們沒有選擇往運動那一個方向，我們總是希望大家是健康的，但是未來能夠為國家爭取榮耀的，已經不是那一個體育班而已，可能是有更多的人。我想委員剛才所非常熱心關切的，我們一定會深切的檢討，看怎麼樣在未來體育署改為運動部的時候，能夠真正的照我們的理想逐步來實現。"],["主席：謝謝部長，未及答復的部分，麻煩就書面答復，陳培瑜委員還有沒有……"],["陳委員培瑜：有，拜託再給我一下下，拜託，一下下。"],["主席：是不是時間麻煩注意一下？還有其他委員，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我掌握。最後我要講的是，未來運動部的新任部長要不要為現在所有政策跟這些會議最後的結論背書？我其實非常的擔心，所以我要拜託部長，在運動部跟教育部的銜接工作，拜託、拜託，要走得更寬廣。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，這是我們應該做的。"],["陳委員培瑜：我還有時間嗎？最後一題好了，有關性侵那一題。葉委員，拜託！"],["主席：我們請委員將問題簡要提出，然後請部會書面答詢，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我的問題會簡要提出。在臺中市棒球體育班大規模性侵之後，我們要求教育部要處理不適任人員清查制度的破口，我們要求你們去做這個事情，結果回復出來的，一次、一次回復，目前確實透過普查查出有35個人是所謂的不適任，可是如果沒有去查，這些人都還在教育現場，但非常可怕的是，目前還有臺中市、新竹縣、新竹市、南投縣、雲林縣沒有回復，這個很可怕，我剛剛已經先說了，有查才被發現，更何況那些沒有查的會出什麼事情。7月15日我們辦公室持續跟教育部人事處開會，這件事情可以怎麼做，很開心教育部給了我們非常積極的回復，可以做系統跟後臺查詢的改良，這個事情我們會繼續追查，我們希望教育部可以承諾在年底以前完成不適任人員清查監督資訊系統的改良。第二個，定期公告教育部所屬跟各縣市高中以下學校不適任人員查詢的狀況。還有，部長，我剛剛跟你說的，遲遲不回的臺中市、新竹縣、新竹市、南投縣、雲林縣，請你們繼續追蹤，這些資料可以再跟我們辦公室索取好嗎？好，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員的質詢，官員請回座。","接下來有請高金素梅委員質詢。高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員不在。","接下來有請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-18","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","劉書彬","萬美玲","陳秀寳","張雅琳","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","范雲","李坤城","黃捷","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","陳培瑜","葉元之","黃國昌","高金素梅","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":3,"meetingDate":["2025-08-07"],"gazette_id":"1147202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長列席就「全國中小學教師人力不足現況與具體因應對策」進行專題報告並備\n質詢；二、邀請教育部部長、國家科學及技術委員會、衛生福利部列席就「如何強化研究計畫之\n人體研究倫理把關機制，以保障人權，捍衛科研價值，並避免類似台師大女足抽血違反研究倫理\n之案件再次發生」進行專題報告，並備質詢；三、邀請教育部部長、行政院人事行政總處及行政\n院主計總處列席就「9月9日運動部成立籌備情形與後續推動規劃」進行專題報告並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147202_00002"}}}