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0.009}, {\"word\": \"備\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,149 --> 00:00:17,564\n麻煩請王地宇委員質詢謝院長麻煩卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n\n2\n00:00:29,110 --> 00:00:43,278\n王委員好辛苦了謝謝其實我有很多重要的題目要談不過剛剛聽了一下我其實有個感慨身為台南人任何人來幫我們哪怕只幫一個小時我們都充滿了感謝但是千萬不要以為\n\n3\n00:00:44,653 --> 00:01:02,844\n你有幫忙別人什麼都沒做你有來別人就放在那邊自生自滅去貶抑當地的努力不會讓自己更偉大我們回到自己的我們的題目這一次是一個危機120年來第一次有颱風從嘉義台南這個平原的地方衝上來\n\n4\n00:01:04,605 --> 00:01:21,378\n120年來第一次考驗我們嘉南平原我們的糧倉更是現在的科技狼帶能不能有抗災的韌性所以我們希望這一次的救災不僅是救急更能夠從根本上去解決一些問題危機就是轉機\n\n5\n00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:44,852\n透過這個災難的重建過程把國土抗災韌性把它提高我們現在都講韌性台灣我們之前遇到百年大旱還好八年八百億裡面有關不管是工業水井浮流水水庫峻深或者是幾個聯通管的接通才能夠讓我們經過兩年多幾乎沒什麼下雨的百年大旱\n\n6\n00:01:46,053 --> 00:02:13,129\n我們其實沒有停水它最多是減壓供水所以平時做好基礎建設遇到災難的時候那個韌性發揮出來感覺不到政府的存在反而是一件好事所以我們這次題目很多那我們在現場不管是經濟部啦或者我們指揮官陳金德啦政委等等其實都做相當多的努力外界未必看得到那我現在要提出幾個項目我們可以一起來透過這幾個項目我們來檢視的第一個\n\n7\n00:02:16,106 --> 00:02:37,317\n在石棉建材其实很多年前就已经列为我们一级的致癌的建材新的建物都不能用老旧的建物石棉它进到肺部里面要很多年以后才会导致肺病变这一次风灾到了把微屋子摧垮了\n\n8\n00:02:38,206 --> 00:03:07,247\n那正在重建的過程當中能不能有一些誘因跟強過去就有誘因了啦但誘因存在那裡大家不想換反正那處大好好啊那房子在那裡就順順的就好透過這一次能不能加一點半強制加高鼓勵的方式把實棉建材從災後重建的過程當中能夠把它從嘉南平原把它掃掉我不知道院長對這個方面有沒有什麼樣的計畫跟遠景\n\n9\n00:03:08,803 --> 00:03:34,940\n部長先說一下保養員的確失眠是一個很長久以來的問題我們台灣有二十幾萬棟的房子都有這個東西但是其實這個情況是這樣就是說如果他被破損但是他是破掉才會有問題如果好好的我們不用動他他對我們身體是沒有危害的所以我們是有編定進化逐年的淘汰我現在講的是平時的時候你們就有編定計畫鼓勵替換\n\n10\n00:03:37,042 --> 00:03:52,655\n現在遇到的是天災類似戰時然後現在這附近的房子石棉碼被吹掉了我們剛好要把它重建可不可以盤點一下這個社區也許還有七八戶還有石棉屋頂要不要一起給它鼓勵說做回去做一邊叫工比較便宜\n\n11\n00:03:56,078 --> 00:04:18,330\n因為我也到地方去看過很多那最大麻煩是有很多譬如說台南嘉義很多是好幾戶才共有那一戶所以他們產權他們要解決這個問題就很困難所以我們想辦法要解決我今天提這個問題是點出這個問題這是一個機會我們看到是天災的危機當然產權持分你若不想要本業財產你若不想要自己家蓋新的你懂我意思嗎\n\n12\n00:04:19,150 --> 00:04:45,308\n在建材的修繕上管理人居住人他不會說牆壁上釘個釘子還要持份人蓋章所以在鼓勵的措施上我們這個社區既然有幾間石棉瓦工廠石棉瓦屋頂的老宅被摧垮了就是要重建了工要進來宅要進來透過我們的民政體系統計一下還有七戶六戶他們雖然房子沒有受損但是在那裡你永遠不知道他什麼時候會致癌\n\n13\n00:04:46,109 --> 00:05:02,859\n那透過跟他溝通一下我給你帶新的好不好給你鼓勵給你補足把這一個環境致癌物呢透過天災把它扭轉我樂見我也期待環境部可以往前push多做一點而不是看到困難就停下來那要等一陣子啦\n\n14\n00:05:03,399 --> 00:05:09,161\n我了解委員的用意希望在這次的過程當中盡量把那些可能的致癌物少用不要用讓他未來不會再出現就在把人從\n\n15\n00:05:25,837 --> 00:05:47,525\n難以生活回到可以維持一般的生活但我們可以更進一步把他生活當中的不好的部分把它去除掉那這個就往前做的更多一點點我們看下面這個數據我請工程會來研究注意能不能在這個要做到相當的程度讓大家安心要不然這次你看石棉把吹下來連去清運都要帶防護衣\n\n16\n00:05:49,085 --> 00:06:10,508\n那把它拿走之後對未來抗災的韌性其實也是提高的透過一點誘因透過民政系統透過這個趨利去跟他講這個概念說那是性感情的啦現在看不到二十天後換你也沒得拖背那透過這個方式我給他多一點補助隔壁剛才吹倒了現在在修理這會大打的多做一點\n\n17\n00:06:11,570 --> 00:06:37,519\n人民會有感受的這片土地會有回饋的那個大概我們現在編了7.8億所以這個部分會全力來支援台南嘉義災疾因為那邊的量大到大到可能駐北部人不理解其實這量相當大他已經列為一級致癌物那個量算多的很多很多那我現在來看一下我們這一次光台南市嘉義還有其實整個加起來是4萬多戶光台南市民宅的毀損觸定消息30804戶\n\n18\n00:06:40,720 --> 00:07:00,223\n大家可以想像三萬零八百零四戶那個分佈的範圍然後呢這個丹納斯颱風吹完之後緊接著兩百毫米的大雨又接著來光台南三萬多戶齁出町如果要蓬佈一戶給你用五台就好了你知道要多少帆布\n\n19\n00:07:01,169 --> 00:07:26,869\n然後那個狀況要去救災要去重建要去清運垃圾要處理人要處理產權要處理垃圾清運要附電要通信所以我還是那句話我剛才聽了一小段其他同仁的質詢真的大家都來多做一點但是不要因為自己我去的時候旁邊沒人就以為都沒有人在做其實基層的公務人員都很辛苦我們陳金德政委在現場\n\n20\n00:07:28,070 --> 00:07:55,127\n指揮到都知道那個其實沒命沒力了大家不忍心自己的署名才會這樣嘛那這3萬多戶裡面呢大概我根據他的區域這17個區域還有他的坪數大概有個分類那這裡面難處在哪裡呢我們的復健通常是叫救急我讓你不流水就好但在救急的時候這個禮拜搞不好又有個颱風要來啊對啊然後\n\n21\n00:07:57,110 --> 00:08:25,673\n可能有豪大雨啊我又要救急我又希望這個臨時的救急的設施要能夠穩固抗災然後呢這裡有很多紅色的住在住在北部土地的人哎喲我們的人怎麼住在這種破落戶裡面好可憐喔那個是標準的從北部天龍新帶看南部三合院農村的風光那是有文化底蘊的甚至於三合院你去看那個黃坤湖國策顧問他到現在也住三合院啊\n\n22\n00:08:26,584 --> 00:08:52,202\n三盡的三百億啊整個本手存手啊三合院有它的歷史的底蘊在農村地帶這種紅色處有它的美甚至有的是有文化資產保存的價值像我們台南的喜樹聚落是全台灣最大的三合院的聚落我很擔心說重建之後通通變鐵皮屋你懂我的意思嗎因為這很難啦這個我要跟院長跟政委跟部長講\n\n23\n00:08:57,116 --> 00:09:13,985\n我只是說跟各位共同探討我又要救急希望他不會漏水趕快搭起來我又希望這個東西能夠很穩固下一個颱風來不會飛走然後呢地方這些老屋老宅他那個屋子那個屋子其實現在材料都沒了\n\n24\n00:09:15,009 --> 00:09:38,888\n所以怎麼樣在材料、地貌、地景穩固跟緊急救急之間有它的困難度我是不是先請陳金德指揮官你有讀到這個困難點嗎這到底要怎麼處理因為這個三合院或是比較鄉下的老宅都是繼承很久就沒有繼承好幾代人60年、70年、80年那天總統去看那一戶98年的房子\n\n25\n00:09:42,771 --> 00:09:58,907\n所以它很多人共用所以根本沒辦法改建因為沒有辦法改建所以就沒力了沒力了所以每個房子都已經很老舊了這是第一個那第二個有的是國有土地那國有土地你如果說材料要重建就面臨重建的問題\n\n26\n00:10:00,268 --> 00:10:17,224\n那為什麼有這麼多因為南部嘉蘭平原很少碰到這麼大的風災120年來第一次直接掃上來就是碰到這麼大的風災所以這一次問題才呈現出來有那麼多戶房子被掀掉那你如果說東部地區因為它經常面對颱風\n\n27\n00:10:19,405 --> 00:10:43,359\n類似的房子都已經被吹掉很多東部經常面對災殃它的韌性會好一點關於這些瓦的問題那麼台南市這邊也有人建議說台南市政府的文化局應該成立一個類似屋瓦的銀行啦有的拆下來不用的就收集有的要用的就給他他們用這個方式這位好就指揮官這邊好\n\n28\n00:10:45,425 --> 00:10:48,877\n你這個建議方向是對的我剛才講難處就是你一手要救急\n\n29\n00:10:49,926 --> 00:11:17,400\n直接把它搭起來一手要文化保存然後又希望這個東西能夠穩穩固固的抗災啊抗震啊等等這個很難你剛才講是一個方向烏瓦銀行啊古厝拆下來可以刷來這裡銀或者有一些規格比較好的現代的建材可以去取代舊的烏瓦至少風貌不要改變太多把規格訂好在重建的時候針對多少尼哥衣裳的老厝我被處定在修理的時候\n\n30\n00:11:18,661 --> 00:11:42,110\n那個規格不一樣我補助給你多一點點只為了維持嘉南平原這一兩百年來農村的風貌這個我覺得可以多用一點點心多做一點讓在地人民感受一點真的不要風災之後呢轉播變鐵皮屋這個其實是一個問題那我剛才講的因為今天時間關係救急又要穩固其實是兩難\n\n31\n00:11:44,093 --> 00:11:56,432\n我沒有去到現場的人很容易講風涼話我不希望是這樣的情形我舉帆布的例子我跟救災指揮官曾經的政委討論過我現在看到一個隱憂就是帆布\n\n32\n00:11:57,358 --> 00:12:25,459\n帆布是不得不第一時間三萬幾間房子在漏水你不搭帆布你要叫那個老人在家裡淋雨嗎而且會漏電我那天去那邊被電到那個會漏電所以不得不要用去嫌棄帆布的人是不曉得他第一時間屋子在漏水屋漏偏逢連夜雨他只用帆布把它蓋起來可現在問題來了颱風今天進來這數萬片的帆布蓋在這些脆弱的屋子的頂上\n\n33\n00:12:27,179 --> 00:12:55,743\n不用16、7級風9級以上一吹我們都可以想像會發生什麼事情這個防布綁著屋子屋子本來就脆弱了綁得夠牢靠會不會像風防一樣把整個房子拔掉綁得不牢靠飛走不用多一萬片飛走我們所有的水路水路水門排水道被這防布水往低速流往那邊集中的時候塞住了橋墩塞住了所以\n\n34\n00:12:57,110 --> 00:13:06,291\n現在面對的是颱風即將進來這些帆布都是綁著甚至用磚頭壓在屋頂上這今天你要知道這個要怎麼辦\n\n35\n00:13:08,731 --> 00:13:28,405\n報告委員目前在進行的媒合的很快目前安排媒合的已經有1917完成確定210我們認為要迅速的把這個屋頂用類似其他的金屬板來鋪上去用浪板把它蓋起來浪板和彩色金屬板我們討論過這個數據因為3萬多戶\n\n36\n00:13:32,649 --> 00:13:48,932\n來爆煤河的大概兩層有八層裡面大概有一大部分是因為要拆掉了他自己要處理了還有一部分是沒有來申報的啦縱使有煤河那兩層我們那天聽到的是兩個禮拜內完工嘛在拼兩個禮拜內完工嘛那我現在講的颱風是今天啊\n\n37\n00:13:50,327 --> 00:14:14,218\n這個颱風的部分我們認為帆布不是長久之計那如果颱風來了為了避免這個災民在第二次受到這個災損我們請台南市政府必要的時候應該做這個預防性的撤離我建議是這樣子如果預判這個颱風會進來會到那個位置帆布的部分要做適當的處理\n\n38\n00:14:16,598 --> 00:14:41,156\n拿下來是一種處理綁緊是一種處理看那個房子的狀態人要做妥適的安置萬事不如人重要跟委員報告今天這個楊柳颱風應該二級的中央應變中心二級已經開設了預計今天中午左右一級會開設我們已經透過中央應變中心要求地方政府全部的處理趕快把它安全上處置\n\n39\n00:14:41,796 --> 00:14:57,412\n能夠讓他更穩固人員要事先撤離我今天在大院質詢之後傍晚之後我也會到應變中心再去實地了解當下立即會發生的事情我強調一次帆布在糾結的時候是必要要做的可是面對連續的災難過來的時候\n\n40\n00:14:59,834 --> 00:15:15,125\n這個帆布可能反而成為自災因子這個要妥善處理我最後提這一個其實很多點我先舉個例子當時蘇貞昌院長編了78億那還被人家罵被人家笑把平和公路141公里把它2200多支電桿地下化\n\n41\n00:15:16,345 --> 00:15:33,591\n以前颱風一來那邊停電幾乎都是主供應電線被吹斷電線桿被吹倒如果有到北門地區會發現那個電桿是燃藥折斷所以透過這次復電重建台電能源的辛苦我們未來能不能啟動嘉南的主供應電線的全面地下化把他放\n\n42\n00:15:47,196 --> 00:15:48,802\n好謝謝王定宇委員質詢謝謝卓院長相關部會所長的備詢謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n149\t17564\t麻煩請王地宇委員質詢謝院長 麻煩卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n29110\t43278\t王委員好 辛苦了謝謝其實我有很多重要的題目要談不過剛剛聽了一下我其實有個感慨身為台南人任何人來幫我們哪怕只幫一個小時我們都充滿了感謝但是千萬不要以為\n44653\t62844\t你有幫忙別人什麼都沒做你有來別人就放在那邊自生自滅去貶抑當地的努力不會讓自己更偉大我們回到自己的我們的題目這一次是一個危機120年來第一次有颱風從嘉義台南這個平原的地方衝上來\n64605\t81378\t120年來第一次考驗我們嘉南平原我們的糧倉更是現在的科技狼帶能不能有抗災的韌性所以我們希望這一次的救災不僅是救急更能夠從根本上去解決一些問題危機就是轉機\n82319\t104852\t透過這個災難的重建過程把國土抗災韌性把它提高我們現在都講韌性台灣我們之前遇到百年大旱還好八年八百億裡面有關不管是工業水井 浮流水 水庫峻深或者是幾個聯通管的接通才能夠讓我們經過兩年多幾乎沒什麼下雨的百年大旱\n106053\t133129\t我們其實沒有停水它最多是減壓供水所以平時做好基礎建設遇到災難的時候那個韌性發揮出來感覺不到政府的存在反而是一件好事所以我們這次題目很多那我們在現場不管是經濟部啦或者我們指揮官陳金德啦 政委等等其實都做相當多的努力外界未必看得到那我現在要提出幾個項目我們可以一起來透過這幾個項目我們來檢視的第一個\n136106\t157317\t在石棉建材其实很多年前就已经列为我们一级的致癌的建材新的建物都不能用老旧的建物石棉它进到肺部里面要很多年以后才会导致肺病变这一次风灾到了把微屋子摧垮了\n158206\t187247\t那正在重建的過程當中能不能有一些誘因跟強過去就有誘因了啦但誘因存在那裡大家不想換反正那處大好好啊那房子在那裡就順順的就好透過這一次能不能加一點半強制加高鼓勵的方式把實棉建材從災後重建的過程當中能夠把它從嘉南平原把它掃掉我不知道院長對這個方面有沒有什麼樣的計畫跟遠景\n188803\t214940\t部長先說一下 保養員的確失眠是一個很長久以來的問題我們台灣有二十幾萬棟的房子都有這個東西但是其實這個情況是這樣就是說如果他被破損但是他是破掉才會有問題如果好好的我們不用動他他對我們身體是沒有危害的所以我們是有編定進化逐年的淘汰我現在講的是平時的時候你們就有編定計畫鼓勵替換\n217042\t232655\t現在遇到的是天災 類似戰時然後現在這附近的房子 石棉碼被吹掉了我們剛好要把它重建可不可以盤點一下這個社區也許還有七八戶 還有石棉屋頂要不要一起給它鼓勵說做回去 做一邊叫工 比較便宜\n236078\t258330\t因為我也到地方去看過很多那最大麻煩是有很多譬如說台南 嘉義很多是好幾戶才共有那一戶所以他們產權他們要解決這個問題就很困難所以我們想辦法要解決我今天提這個問題是點出這個問題這是一個機會我們看到是天災的危機當然產權持分你若不想要本業財產你若不想要自己家蓋新的你懂我意思嗎\n259150\t285308\t在建材的修繕上管理人 居住人他不會說牆壁上釘個釘子還要持份人蓋章所以在鼓勵的措施上我們這個社區既然有幾間石棉瓦工廠石棉瓦屋頂的老宅被摧垮了就是要重建了工要進來 宅要進來透過我們的民政體系統計一下還有七戶 六戶他們雖然房子沒有受損但是在那裡你永遠不知道他什麼時候會致癌\n286109\t302859\t那透過跟他溝通一下我給你帶新的好不好給你鼓勵 給你補足把這一個環境致癌物呢透過天災把它扭轉我樂見我也期待環境部可以往前push多做一點而不是看到困難就停下來那要等一陣子啦\n303399\t309161\t我了解委員的用意希望在這次的過程當中盡量把那些可能的致癌物少用不要用讓他未來不會再出現就在把人從\n325837\t347525\t難以生活回到可以維持一般的生活但我們可以更進一步把他生活當中的不好的部分把它去除掉那這個就往前做的更多一點點我們看下面這個數據我請工程會來研究注意能不能在這個要做到相當的程度讓大家安心要不然這次你看石棉把吹下來連去清運都要帶防護衣\n349085\t370508\t那把它拿走之後 對未來抗災的韌性其實也是提高的透過一點誘因 透過民政系統 透過這個趨利去跟他講這個概念說 那是性感情的啦現在看不到二十天後換 你也沒得拖背那透過這個方式 我給他多一點補助隔壁剛才吹倒了 現在在修理 這會大打的 多做一點\n371570\t397519\t人民會有感受的這片土地會有回饋的那個大概我們現在編了7.8億所以這個部分會全力來支援台南嘉義災疾因為那邊的量大到大到可能駐北部人不理解其實這量相當大他已經列為一級致癌物那個量算多的 很多很多那我現在來看一下我們這一次光台南市嘉義還有其實整個加起來是4萬多戶光台南市民宅的毀損觸定消息30804戶\n400720\t420223\t大家可以想像三萬零八百零四戶那個分佈的範圍然後呢這個丹納斯颱風吹完之後緊接著兩百毫米的大雨又接著來光台南三萬多戶齁出町如果要蓬佈一戶給你用五台就好了你知道要多少帆布\n421169\t446869\t然後那個狀況要去救災要去重建要去清運垃圾要處理人要處理產權要處理垃圾清運要附電要通信所以我還是那句話我剛才聽了一小段其他同仁的質詢真的大家都來多做一點但是不要因為自己我去的時候旁邊沒人就以為都沒有人在做其實基層的公務人員都很辛苦我們陳金德政委在現場\n448070\t475127\t指揮到都知道 那個其實沒命沒力了大家不忍心自己的署名 才會這樣嘛那這3萬多戶裡面呢大概我根據他的區域這17個區域還有他的坪數 大概有個分類那這裡面難處在哪裡呢我們的復健通常是叫救急我讓你不流水就好但在救急的時候這個禮拜搞不好又有個颱風要來啊對啊 然後\n477110\t505673\t可能有豪大雨啊 我又要救急我又希望這個臨時的救急的設施要能夠穩固抗災然後呢 這裡有很多紅色的住在 住在北部土地的人哎喲 我們的人怎麼住在這種破落戶裡面好可憐喔 那個是標準的從北部天龍新帶看南部三合院 農村的風光那是有文化底蘊的甚至於三合院 你去看那個黃坤湖國策顧問他到現在也住三合院啊\n506584\t532202\t三盡的三百億啊整個本手存手啊三合院有它的歷史的底蘊在農村地帶這種紅色處有它的美甚至有的是有文化資產保存的價值像我們台南的喜樹聚落是全台灣最大的三合院的聚落我很擔心說重建之後通通變鐵皮屋你懂我的意思嗎因為這很難啦這個我要跟院長跟政委跟部長講\n537116\t553985\t我只是說跟各位共同探討我又要救急希望他不會漏水趕快搭起來我又希望這個東西能夠很穩固下一個颱風來不會飛走然後呢地方這些老屋老宅他那個屋子那個屋子其實現在材料都沒了\n555009\t578888\t所以怎麼樣在材料、地貌、地景穩固跟緊急救急之間有它的困難度我是不是先請陳金德指揮官你有讀到這個困難點嗎這到底要怎麼處理因為這個三合院或是比較鄉下的老宅都是繼承很久就沒有繼承好幾代人60年、70年、80年那天總統去看那一戶98年的房子\n582771\t598907\t所以它很多人共用所以根本沒辦法改建因為沒有辦法改建所以就沒力了沒力了所以每個房子都已經很老舊了這是第一個那第二個有的是國有土地那國有土地你如果說材料要重建就面臨重建的問題\n600268\t617224\t那為什麼有這麼多因為南部 嘉蘭平原很少碰到這麼大的風災120年來第一次直接掃上來就是碰到這麼大的風災所以這一次問題才呈現出來有那麼多戶房子被掀掉那你如果說東部地區因為它經常面對颱風\n619405\t643359\t類似的房子都已經被吹掉很多東部經常面對災殃它的韌性會好一點關於這些瓦的問題那麼台南市這邊也有人建議說台南市政府的文化局應該成立一個類似屋瓦的銀行啦有的拆下來不用的就收集有的要用的就給他他們用這個方式這位好 就指揮官這邊好\n645425\t648877\t你這個建議方向是對的我剛才講難處就是你一手要救急\n649926\t677400\t直接把它搭起來一手要文化保存然後又希望這個東西能夠穩穩固固的抗災啊 抗震啊等等這個很難你剛才講是一個方向烏瓦銀行啊 古厝拆下來可以刷來這裡銀或者有一些規格比較好的現代的建材可以去取代舊的烏瓦至少風貌不要改變太多把規格訂好在重建的時候針對多少尼哥衣裳的老厝我被處定在修理的時候\n678661\t702110\t那個規格不一樣我補助給你多一點點只為了維持嘉南平原這一兩百年來農村的風貌這個我覺得可以多用一點點心多做一點讓在地人民感受一點真的不要風災之後呢轉播變鐵皮屋這個其實是一個問題那我剛才講的因為今天時間關係救急又要穩固其實是兩難\n704093\t716432\t我沒有去到現場的人很容易講風涼話我不希望是這樣的情形我舉帆布的例子我跟救災指揮官曾經的政委討論過我現在看到一個隱憂就是帆布\n717358\t745459\t帆布是不得不第一時間三萬幾間房子在漏水你不搭帆布你要叫那個老人在家裡淋雨嗎而且會漏電我那天去那邊被電到那個會漏電所以不得不要用去嫌棄帆布的人是不曉得他第一時間屋子在漏水屋漏偏逢連夜雨他只用帆布把它蓋起來可現在問題來了颱風今天進來這數萬片的帆布蓋在這些脆弱的屋子的頂上\n747179\t775743\t不用16、7級風9級以上一吹我們都可以想像會發生什麼事情這個防布綁著屋子 屋子本來就脆弱了綁得夠牢靠會不會像風防一樣把整個房子拔掉綁得不牢靠飛走 不用多一萬片飛走我們所有的水路 水路 水門 排水道被這防布水往低速流往那邊集中的時候塞住了橋墩塞住了所以\n777110\t786291\t現在面對的是颱風即將進來這些帆布都是綁著甚至用磚頭壓在屋頂上這今天你要知道這個要怎麼辦\n788731\t808405\t報告委員 目前在進行的 媒合的很快目前安排媒合的已經有1917 完成確定210我們認為要迅速的把這個屋頂用類似其他的金屬板來鋪上去用浪板把它蓋起來浪板和彩色金屬板我們討論過這個數據 因為3萬多戶\n812649\t828932\t來爆煤河的大概兩層有八層裡面大概有一大部分是因為要拆掉了他自己要處理了還有一部分是沒有來申報的啦縱使有煤河那兩層我們那天聽到的是兩個禮拜內完工嘛在拼兩個禮拜內完工嘛那我現在講的颱風是今天啊\n830327\t854218\t這個颱風的部分我們認為帆布不是長久之計那如果颱風來了為了避免這個災民在第二次受到這個災損我們請台南市政府必要的時候應該做這個預防性的撤離我建議是這樣子如果預判這個颱風會進來會到那個位置帆布的部分要做適當的處理\n856598\t881156\t拿下來是一種處理綁緊是一種處理看那個房子的狀態人要做妥適的安置萬事不如人重要跟委員報告今天這個楊柳颱風應該二級的中央應變中心二級已經開設了預計今天中午左右一級會開設我們已經透過中央應變中心要求地方政府全部的處理趕快把它安全上處置\n881796\t897412\t能夠讓他更穩固人員要事先撤離我今天在大院質詢之後 傍晚之後我也會到應變中心再去實地了解當下立即會發生的事情我強調一次帆布在糾結的時候是必要要做的可是面對連續的災難過來的時候\n899834\t915125\t這個帆布可能反而成為自災因子這個要妥善處理我最後提這一個其實很多點我先舉個例子當時蘇貞昌院長編了78億那還被人家罵被人家笑把平和公路141公里把它2200多支電桿地下化\n916345\t933591\t以前颱風一來那邊停電幾乎都是主供應電線被吹斷電線桿被吹倒如果有到北門地區會發現那個電桿是燃藥折斷所以透過這次復電重建台電能源的辛苦我們未來能不能啟動嘉南的主供應電線的全面地下化把他放\n947196\t948802\t好 謝謝王定宇委員質詢謝謝卓院長 相關部會所長的備詢謝謝\n","txt":"麻煩請王地宇委員質詢謝院長 麻煩卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n王委員好 辛苦了謝謝其實我有很多重要的題目要談不過剛剛聽了一下我其實有個感慨身為台南人任何人來幫我們哪怕只幫一個小時我們都充滿了感謝但是千萬不要以為\n你有幫忙別人什麼都沒做你有來別人就放在那邊自生自滅去貶抑當地的努力不會讓自己更偉大我們回到自己的我們的題目這一次是一個危機120年來第一次有颱風從嘉義台南這個平原的地方衝上來\n120年來第一次考驗我們嘉南平原我們的糧倉更是現在的科技狼帶能不能有抗災的韌性所以我們希望這一次的救災不僅是救急更能夠從根本上去解決一些問題危機就是轉機\n透過這個災難的重建過程把國土抗災韌性把它提高我們現在都講韌性台灣我們之前遇到百年大旱還好八年八百億裡面有關不管是工業水井 浮流水 水庫峻深或者是幾個聯通管的接通才能夠讓我們經過兩年多幾乎沒什麼下雨的百年大旱\n我們其實沒有停水它最多是減壓供水所以平時做好基礎建設遇到災難的時候那個韌性發揮出來感覺不到政府的存在反而是一件好事所以我們這次題目很多那我們在現場不管是經濟部啦或者我們指揮官陳金德啦 政委等等其實都做相當多的努力外界未必看得到那我現在要提出幾個項目我們可以一起來透過這幾個項目我們來檢視的第一個\n在石棉建材其实很多年前就已经列为我们一级的致癌的建材新的建物都不能用老旧的建物石棉它进到肺部里面要很多年以后才会导致肺病变这一次风灾到了把微屋子摧垮了\n那正在重建的過程當中能不能有一些誘因跟強過去就有誘因了啦但誘因存在那裡大家不想換反正那處大好好啊那房子在那裡就順順的就好透過這一次能不能加一點半強制加高鼓勵的方式把實棉建材從災後重建的過程當中能夠把它從嘉南平原把它掃掉我不知道院長對這個方面有沒有什麼樣的計畫跟遠景\n部長先說一下 保養員的確失眠是一個很長久以來的問題我們台灣有二十幾萬棟的房子都有這個東西但是其實這個情況是這樣就是說如果他被破損但是他是破掉才會有問題如果好好的我們不用動他他對我們身體是沒有危害的所以我們是有編定進化逐年的淘汰我現在講的是平時的時候你們就有編定計畫鼓勵替換\n現在遇到的是天災 類似戰時然後現在這附近的房子 石棉碼被吹掉了我們剛好要把它重建可不可以盤點一下這個社區也許還有七八戶 還有石棉屋頂要不要一起給它鼓勵說做回去 做一邊叫工 比較便宜\n因為我也到地方去看過很多那最大麻煩是有很多譬如說台南 嘉義很多是好幾戶才共有那一戶所以他們產權他們要解決這個問題就很困難所以我們想辦法要解決我今天提這個問題是點出這個問題這是一個機會我們看到是天災的危機當然產權持分你若不想要本業財產你若不想要自己家蓋新的你懂我意思嗎\n在建材的修繕上管理人 居住人他不會說牆壁上釘個釘子還要持份人蓋章所以在鼓勵的措施上我們這個社區既然有幾間石棉瓦工廠石棉瓦屋頂的老宅被摧垮了就是要重建了工要進來 宅要進來透過我們的民政體系統計一下還有七戶 六戶他們雖然房子沒有受損但是在那裡你永遠不知道他什麼時候會致癌\n那透過跟他溝通一下我給你帶新的好不好給你鼓勵 給你補足把這一個環境致癌物呢透過天災把它扭轉我樂見我也期待環境部可以往前push多做一點而不是看到困難就停下來那要等一陣子啦\n我了解委員的用意希望在這次的過程當中盡量把那些可能的致癌物少用不要用讓他未來不會再出現就在把人從\n難以生活回到可以維持一般的生活但我們可以更進一步把他生活當中的不好的部分把它去除掉那這個就往前做的更多一點點我們看下面這個數據我請工程會來研究注意能不能在這個要做到相當的程度讓大家安心要不然這次你看石棉把吹下來連去清運都要帶防護衣\n那把它拿走之後 對未來抗災的韌性其實也是提高的透過一點誘因 透過民政系統 透過這個趨利去跟他講這個概念說 那是性感情的啦現在看不到二十天後換 你也沒得拖背那透過這個方式 我給他多一點補助隔壁剛才吹倒了 現在在修理 這會大打的 多做一點\n人民會有感受的這片土地會有回饋的那個大概我們現在編了7.8億所以這個部分會全力來支援台南嘉義災疾因為那邊的量大到大到可能駐北部人不理解其實這量相當大他已經列為一級致癌物那個量算多的 很多很多那我現在來看一下我們這一次光台南市嘉義還有其實整個加起來是4萬多戶光台南市民宅的毀損觸定消息30804戶\n大家可以想像三萬零八百零四戶那個分佈的範圍然後呢這個丹納斯颱風吹完之後緊接著兩百毫米的大雨又接著來光台南三萬多戶齁出町如果要蓬佈一戶給你用五台就好了你知道要多少帆布\n然後那個狀況要去救災要去重建要去清運垃圾要處理人要處理產權要處理垃圾清運要附電要通信所以我還是那句話我剛才聽了一小段其他同仁的質詢真的大家都來多做一點但是不要因為自己我去的時候旁邊沒人就以為都沒有人在做其實基層的公務人員都很辛苦我們陳金德政委在現場\n指揮到都知道 那個其實沒命沒力了大家不忍心自己的署名 才會這樣嘛那這3萬多戶裡面呢大概我根據他的區域這17個區域還有他的坪數 大概有個分類那這裡面難處在哪裡呢我們的復健通常是叫救急我讓你不流水就好但在救急的時候這個禮拜搞不好又有個颱風要來啊對啊 然後\n可能有豪大雨啊 我又要救急我又希望這個臨時的救急的設施要能夠穩固抗災然後呢 這裡有很多紅色的住在 住在北部土地的人哎喲 我們的人怎麼住在這種破落戶裡面好可憐喔 那個是標準的從北部天龍新帶看南部三合院 農村的風光那是有文化底蘊的甚至於三合院 你去看那個黃坤湖國策顧問他到現在也住三合院啊\n三盡的三百億啊整個本手存手啊三合院有它的歷史的底蘊在農村地帶這種紅色處有它的美甚至有的是有文化資產保存的價值像我們台南的喜樹聚落是全台灣最大的三合院的聚落我很擔心說重建之後通通變鐵皮屋你懂我的意思嗎因為這很難啦這個我要跟院長跟政委跟部長講\n我只是說跟各位共同探討我又要救急希望他不會漏水趕快搭起來我又希望這個東西能夠很穩固下一個颱風來不會飛走然後呢地方這些老屋老宅他那個屋子那個屋子其實現在材料都沒了\n所以怎麼樣在材料、地貌、地景穩固跟緊急救急之間有它的困難度我是不是先請陳金德指揮官你有讀到這個困難點嗎這到底要怎麼處理因為這個三合院或是比較鄉下的老宅都是繼承很久就沒有繼承好幾代人60年、70年、80年那天總統去看那一戶98年的房子\n所以它很多人共用所以根本沒辦法改建因為沒有辦法改建所以就沒力了沒力了所以每個房子都已經很老舊了這是第一個那第二個有的是國有土地那國有土地你如果說材料要重建就面臨重建的問題\n那為什麼有這麼多因為南部 嘉蘭平原很少碰到這麼大的風災120年來第一次直接掃上來就是碰到這麼大的風災所以這一次問題才呈現出來有那麼多戶房子被掀掉那你如果說東部地區因為它經常面對颱風\n類似的房子都已經被吹掉很多東部經常面對災殃它的韌性會好一點關於這些瓦的問題那麼台南市這邊也有人建議說台南市政府的文化局應該成立一個類似屋瓦的銀行啦有的拆下來不用的就收集有的要用的就給他他們用這個方式這位好 就指揮官這邊好\n你這個建議方向是對的我剛才講難處就是你一手要救急\n直接把它搭起來一手要文化保存然後又希望這個東西能夠穩穩固固的抗災啊 抗震啊等等這個很難你剛才講是一個方向烏瓦銀行啊 古厝拆下來可以刷來這裡銀或者有一些規格比較好的現代的建材可以去取代舊的烏瓦至少風貌不要改變太多把規格訂好在重建的時候針對多少尼哥衣裳的老厝我被處定在修理的時候\n那個規格不一樣我補助給你多一點點只為了維持嘉南平原這一兩百年來農村的風貌這個我覺得可以多用一點點心多做一點讓在地人民感受一點真的不要風災之後呢轉播變鐵皮屋這個其實是一個問題那我剛才講的因為今天時間關係救急又要穩固其實是兩難\n我沒有去到現場的人很容易講風涼話我不希望是這樣的情形我舉帆布的例子我跟救災指揮官曾經的政委討論過我現在看到一個隱憂就是帆布\n帆布是不得不第一時間三萬幾間房子在漏水你不搭帆布你要叫那個老人在家裡淋雨嗎而且會漏電我那天去那邊被電到那個會漏電所以不得不要用去嫌棄帆布的人是不曉得他第一時間屋子在漏水屋漏偏逢連夜雨他只用帆布把它蓋起來可現在問題來了颱風今天進來這數萬片的帆布蓋在這些脆弱的屋子的頂上\n不用16、7級風9級以上一吹我們都可以想像會發生什麼事情這個防布綁著屋子 屋子本來就脆弱了綁得夠牢靠會不會像風防一樣把整個房子拔掉綁得不牢靠飛走 不用多一萬片飛走我們所有的水路 水路 水門 排水道被這防布水往低速流往那邊集中的時候塞住了橋墩塞住了所以\n現在面對的是颱風即將進來這些帆布都是綁著甚至用磚頭壓在屋頂上這今天你要知道這個要怎麼辦\n報告委員 目前在進行的 媒合的很快目前安排媒合的已經有1917 完成確定210我們認為要迅速的把這個屋頂用類似其他的金屬板來鋪上去用浪板把它蓋起來浪板和彩色金屬板我們討論過這個數據 因為3萬多戶\n來爆煤河的大概兩層有八層裡面大概有一大部分是因為要拆掉了他自己要處理了還有一部分是沒有來申報的啦縱使有煤河那兩層我們那天聽到的是兩個禮拜內完工嘛在拼兩個禮拜內完工嘛那我現在講的颱風是今天啊\n這個颱風的部分我們認為帆布不是長久之計那如果颱風來了為了避免這個災民在第二次受到這個災損我們請台南市政府必要的時候應該做這個預防性的撤離我建議是這樣子如果預判這個颱風會進來會到那個位置帆布的部分要做適當的處理\n拿下來是一種處理綁緊是一種處理看那個房子的狀態人要做妥適的安置萬事不如人重要跟委員報告今天這個楊柳颱風應該二級的中央應變中心二級已經開設了預計今天中午左右一級會開設我們已經透過中央應變中心要求地方政府全部的處理趕快把它安全上處置\n能夠讓他更穩固人員要事先撤離我今天在大院質詢之後 傍晚之後我也會到應變中心再去實地了解當下立即會發生的事情我強調一次帆布在糾結的時候是必要要做的可是面對連續的災難過來的時候\n這個帆布可能反而成為自災因子這個要妥善處理我最後提這一個其實很多點我先舉個例子當時蘇貞昌院長編了78億那還被人家罵被人家笑把平和公路141公里把它2200多支電桿地下化\n以前颱風一來那邊停電幾乎都是主供應電線被吹斷電線桿被吹倒如果有到北門地區會發現那個電桿是燃藥折斷所以透過這次復電重建台電能源的辛苦我們未來能不能啟動嘉南的主供應電線的全面地下化把他放\n好 謝謝王定宇委員質詢謝謝卓院長 相關部會所長的備詢謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.149 --> 00:17.564\n麻煩請王地宇委員質詢謝院長麻煩卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n\n00:29.110 --> 00:43.278\n王委員好辛苦了謝謝其實我有很多重要的題目要談不過剛剛聽了一下我其實有個感慨身為台南人任何人來幫我們哪怕只幫一個小時我們都充滿了感謝但是千萬不要以為\n\n00:44.653 --> 01:02.844\n你有幫忙別人什麼都沒做你有來別人就放在那邊自生自滅去貶抑當地的努力不會讓自己更偉大我們回到自己的我們的題目這一次是一個危機120年來第一次有颱風從嘉義台南這個平原的地方衝上來\n\n01:04.605 --> 01:21.378\n120年來第一次考驗我們嘉南平原我們的糧倉更是現在的科技狼帶能不能有抗災的韌性所以我們希望這一次的救災不僅是救急更能夠從根本上去解決一些問題危機就是轉機\n\n01:22.319 --> 01:44.852\n透過這個災難的重建過程把國土抗災韌性把它提高我們現在都講韌性台灣我們之前遇到百年大旱還好八年八百億裡面有關不管是工業水井浮流水水庫峻深或者是幾個聯通管的接通才能夠讓我們經過兩年多幾乎沒什麼下雨的百年大旱\n\n01:46.053 --> 02:13.129\n我們其實沒有停水它最多是減壓供水所以平時做好基礎建設遇到災難的時候那個韌性發揮出來感覺不到政府的存在反而是一件好事所以我們這次題目很多那我們在現場不管是經濟部啦或者我們指揮官陳金德啦政委等等其實都做相當多的努力外界未必看得到那我現在要提出幾個項目我們可以一起來透過這幾個項目我們來檢視的第一個\n\n02:16.106 --> 02:37.317\n在石棉建材其实很多年前就已经列为我们一级的致癌的建材新的建物都不能用老旧的建物石棉它进到肺部里面要很多年以后才会导致肺病变这一次风灾到了把微屋子摧垮了\n\n02:38.206 --> 03:07.247\n那正在重建的過程當中能不能有一些誘因跟強過去就有誘因了啦但誘因存在那裡大家不想換反正那處大好好啊那房子在那裡就順順的就好透過這一次能不能加一點半強制加高鼓勵的方式把實棉建材從災後重建的過程當中能夠把它從嘉南平原把它掃掉我不知道院長對這個方面有沒有什麼樣的計畫跟遠景\n\n03:08.803 --> 03:34.940\n部長先說一下保養員的確失眠是一個很長久以來的問題我們台灣有二十幾萬棟的房子都有這個東西但是其實這個情況是這樣就是說如果他被破損但是他是破掉才會有問題如果好好的我們不用動他他對我們身體是沒有危害的所以我們是有編定進化逐年的淘汰我現在講的是平時的時候你們就有編定計畫鼓勵替換\n\n03:37.042 --> 03:52.655\n現在遇到的是天災類似戰時然後現在這附近的房子石棉碼被吹掉了我們剛好要把它重建可不可以盤點一下這個社區也許還有七八戶還有石棉屋頂要不要一起給它鼓勵說做回去做一邊叫工比較便宜\n\n03:56.078 --> 04:18.330\n因為我也到地方去看過很多那最大麻煩是有很多譬如說台南嘉義很多是好幾戶才共有那一戶所以他們產權他們要解決這個問題就很困難所以我們想辦法要解決我今天提這個問題是點出這個問題這是一個機會我們看到是天災的危機當然產權持分你若不想要本業財產你若不想要自己家蓋新的你懂我意思嗎\n\n04:19.150 --> 04:45.308\n在建材的修繕上管理人居住人他不會說牆壁上釘個釘子還要持份人蓋章所以在鼓勵的措施上我們這個社區既然有幾間石棉瓦工廠石棉瓦屋頂的老宅被摧垮了就是要重建了工要進來宅要進來透過我們的民政體系統計一下還有七戶六戶他們雖然房子沒有受損但是在那裡你永遠不知道他什麼時候會致癌\n\n04:46.109 --> 05:02.859\n那透過跟他溝通一下我給你帶新的好不好給你鼓勵給你補足把這一個環境致癌物呢透過天災把它扭轉我樂見我也期待環境部可以往前push多做一點而不是看到困難就停下來那要等一陣子啦\n\n05:03.399 --> 05:09.161\n我了解委員的用意希望在這次的過程當中盡量把那些可能的致癌物少用不要用讓他未來不會再出現就在把人從\n\n05:25.837 --> 05:47.525\n難以生活回到可以維持一般的生活但我們可以更進一步把他生活當中的不好的部分把它去除掉那這個就往前做的更多一點點我們看下面這個數據我請工程會來研究注意能不能在這個要做到相當的程度讓大家安心要不然這次你看石棉把吹下來連去清運都要帶防護衣\n\n05:49.085 --> 06:10.508\n那把它拿走之後對未來抗災的韌性其實也是提高的透過一點誘因透過民政系統透過這個趨利去跟他講這個概念說那是性感情的啦現在看不到二十天後換你也沒得拖背那透過這個方式我給他多一點補助隔壁剛才吹倒了現在在修理這會大打的多做一點\n\n06:11.570 --> 06:37.519\n人民會有感受的這片土地會有回饋的那個大概我們現在編了7.8億所以這個部分會全力來支援台南嘉義災疾因為那邊的量大到大到可能駐北部人不理解其實這量相當大他已經列為一級致癌物那個量算多的很多很多那我現在來看一下我們這一次光台南市嘉義還有其實整個加起來是4萬多戶光台南市民宅的毀損觸定消息30804戶\n\n06:40.720 --> 07:00.223\n大家可以想像三萬零八百零四戶那個分佈的範圍然後呢這個丹納斯颱風吹完之後緊接著兩百毫米的大雨又接著來光台南三萬多戶齁出町如果要蓬佈一戶給你用五台就好了你知道要多少帆布\n\n07:01.169 --> 07:26.869\n然後那個狀況要去救災要去重建要去清運垃圾要處理人要處理產權要處理垃圾清運要附電要通信所以我還是那句話我剛才聽了一小段其他同仁的質詢真的大家都來多做一點但是不要因為自己我去的時候旁邊沒人就以為都沒有人在做其實基層的公務人員都很辛苦我們陳金德政委在現場\n\n07:28.070 --> 07:55.127\n指揮到都知道那個其實沒命沒力了大家不忍心自己的署名才會這樣嘛那這3萬多戶裡面呢大概我根據他的區域這17個區域還有他的坪數大概有個分類那這裡面難處在哪裡呢我們的復健通常是叫救急我讓你不流水就好但在救急的時候這個禮拜搞不好又有個颱風要來啊對啊然後\n\n07:57.110 --> 08:25.673\n可能有豪大雨啊我又要救急我又希望這個臨時的救急的設施要能夠穩固抗災然後呢這裡有很多紅色的住在住在北部土地的人哎喲我們的人怎麼住在這種破落戶裡面好可憐喔那個是標準的從北部天龍新帶看南部三合院農村的風光那是有文化底蘊的甚至於三合院你去看那個黃坤湖國策顧問他到現在也住三合院啊\n\n08:26.584 --> 08:52.202\n三盡的三百億啊整個本手存手啊三合院有它的歷史的底蘊在農村地帶這種紅色處有它的美甚至有的是有文化資產保存的價值像我們台南的喜樹聚落是全台灣最大的三合院的聚落我很擔心說重建之後通通變鐵皮屋你懂我的意思嗎因為這很難啦這個我要跟院長跟政委跟部長講\n\n08:57.116 --> 09:13.985\n我只是說跟各位共同探討我又要救急希望他不會漏水趕快搭起來我又希望這個東西能夠很穩固下一個颱風來不會飛走然後呢地方這些老屋老宅他那個屋子那個屋子其實現在材料都沒了\n\n09:15.009 --> 09:38.888\n所以怎麼樣在材料、地貌、地景穩固跟緊急救急之間有它的困難度我是不是先請陳金德指揮官你有讀到這個困難點嗎這到底要怎麼處理因為這個三合院或是比較鄉下的老宅都是繼承很久就沒有繼承好幾代人60年、70年、80年那天總統去看那一戶98年的房子\n\n09:42.771 --> 09:58.907\n所以它很多人共用所以根本沒辦法改建因為沒有辦法改建所以就沒力了沒力了所以每個房子都已經很老舊了這是第一個那第二個有的是國有土地那國有土地你如果說材料要重建就面臨重建的問題\n\n10:00.268 --> 10:17.224\n那為什麼有這麼多因為南部嘉蘭平原很少碰到這麼大的風災120年來第一次直接掃上來就是碰到這麼大的風災所以這一次問題才呈現出來有那麼多戶房子被掀掉那你如果說東部地區因為它經常面對颱風\n\n10:19.405 --> 10:43.359\n類似的房子都已經被吹掉很多東部經常面對災殃它的韌性會好一點關於這些瓦的問題那麼台南市這邊也有人建議說台南市政府的文化局應該成立一個類似屋瓦的銀行啦有的拆下來不用的就收集有的要用的就給他他們用這個方式這位好就指揮官這邊好\n\n10:45.425 --> 10:48.877\n你這個建議方向是對的我剛才講難處就是你一手要救急\n\n10:49.926 --> 11:17.400\n直接把它搭起來一手要文化保存然後又希望這個東西能夠穩穩固固的抗災啊抗震啊等等這個很難你剛才講是一個方向烏瓦銀行啊古厝拆下來可以刷來這裡銀或者有一些規格比較好的現代的建材可以去取代舊的烏瓦至少風貌不要改變太多把規格訂好在重建的時候針對多少尼哥衣裳的老厝我被處定在修理的時候\n\n11:18.661 --> 11:42.110\n那個規格不一樣我補助給你多一點點只為了維持嘉南平原這一兩百年來農村的風貌這個我覺得可以多用一點點心多做一點讓在地人民感受一點真的不要風災之後呢轉播變鐵皮屋這個其實是一個問題那我剛才講的因為今天時間關係救急又要穩固其實是兩難\n\n11:44.093 --> 11:56.432\n我沒有去到現場的人很容易講風涼話我不希望是這樣的情形我舉帆布的例子我跟救災指揮官曾經的政委討論過我現在看到一個隱憂就是帆布\n\n11:57.358 --> 12:25.459\n帆布是不得不第一時間三萬幾間房子在漏水你不搭帆布你要叫那個老人在家裡淋雨嗎而且會漏電我那天去那邊被電到那個會漏電所以不得不要用去嫌棄帆布的人是不曉得他第一時間屋子在漏水屋漏偏逢連夜雨他只用帆布把它蓋起來可現在問題來了颱風今天進來這數萬片的帆布蓋在這些脆弱的屋子的頂上\n\n12:27.179 --> 12:55.743\n不用16、7級風9級以上一吹我們都可以想像會發生什麼事情這個防布綁著屋子屋子本來就脆弱了綁得夠牢靠會不會像風防一樣把整個房子拔掉綁得不牢靠飛走不用多一萬片飛走我們所有的水路水路水門排水道被這防布水往低速流往那邊集中的時候塞住了橋墩塞住了所以\n\n12:57.110 --> 13:06.291\n現在面對的是颱風即將進來這些帆布都是綁著甚至用磚頭壓在屋頂上這今天你要知道這個要怎麼辦\n\n13:08.731 --> 13:28.405\n報告委員目前在進行的媒合的很快目前安排媒合的已經有1917完成確定210我們認為要迅速的把這個屋頂用類似其他的金屬板來鋪上去用浪板把它蓋起來浪板和彩色金屬板我們討論過這個數據因為3萬多戶\n\n13:32.649 --> 13:48.932\n來爆煤河的大概兩層有八層裡面大概有一大部分是因為要拆掉了他自己要處理了還有一部分是沒有來申報的啦縱使有煤河那兩層我們那天聽到的是兩個禮拜內完工嘛在拼兩個禮拜內完工嘛那我現在講的颱風是今天啊\n\n13:50.327 --> 14:14.218\n這個颱風的部分我們認為帆布不是長久之計那如果颱風來了為了避免這個災民在第二次受到這個災損我們請台南市政府必要的時候應該做這個預防性的撤離我建議是這樣子如果預判這個颱風會進來會到那個位置帆布的部分要做適當的處理\n\n14:16.598 --> 14:41.156\n拿下來是一種處理綁緊是一種處理看那個房子的狀態人要做妥適的安置萬事不如人重要跟委員報告今天這個楊柳颱風應該二級的中央應變中心二級已經開設了預計今天中午左右一級會開設我們已經透過中央應變中心要求地方政府全部的處理趕快把它安全上處置\n\n14:41.796 --> 14:57.412\n能夠讓他更穩固人員要事先撤離我今天在大院質詢之後傍晚之後我也會到應變中心再去實地了解當下立即會發生的事情我強調一次帆布在糾結的時候是必要要做的可是面對連續的災難過來的時候\n\n14:59.834 --> 15:15.125\n這個帆布可能反而成為自災因子這個要妥善處理我最後提這一個其實很多點我先舉個例子當時蘇貞昌院長編了78億那還被人家罵被人家笑把平和公路141公里把它2200多支電桿地下化\n\n15:16.345 --> 15:33.591\n以前颱風一來那邊停電幾乎都是主供應電線被吹斷電線桿被吹倒如果有到北門地區會發現那個電桿是燃藥折斷所以透過這次復電重建台電能源的辛苦我們未來能不能啟動嘉南的主供應電線的全面地下化把他放\n\n15:47.196 --> 15:48.802\n好謝謝王定宇委員質詢謝謝卓院長相關部會所長的備詢謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.149,"end":17.564,"text":"麻煩請王地宇委員質詢謝院長 麻煩卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":29.11,"end":43.278,"text":"王委員好 辛苦了謝謝其實我有很多重要的題目要談不過剛剛聽了一下我其實有個感慨身為台南人任何人來幫我們哪怕只幫一個小時我們都充滿了感謝但是千萬不要以為"},{"start":44.653,"end":62.844,"text":"你有幫忙別人什麼都沒做你有來別人就放在那邊自生自滅去貶抑當地的努力不會讓自己更偉大我們回到自己的我們的題目這一次是一個危機120年來第一次有颱風從嘉義台南這個平原的地方衝上來"},{"start":64.605,"end":81.378,"text":"120年來第一次考驗我們嘉南平原我們的糧倉更是現在的科技狼帶能不能有抗災的韌性所以我們希望這一次的救災不僅是救急更能夠從根本上去解決一些問題危機就是轉機"},{"start":82.319,"end":104.852,"text":"透過這個災難的重建過程把國土抗災韌性把它提高我們現在都講韌性台灣我們之前遇到百年大旱還好八年八百億裡面有關不管是工業水井 浮流水 水庫峻深或者是幾個聯通管的接通才能夠讓我們經過兩年多幾乎沒什麼下雨的百年大旱"},{"start":106.053,"end":133.129,"text":"我們其實沒有停水它最多是減壓供水所以平時做好基礎建設遇到災難的時候那個韌性發揮出來感覺不到政府的存在反而是一件好事所以我們這次題目很多那我們在現場不管是經濟部啦或者我們指揮官陳金德啦 政委等等其實都做相當多的努力外界未必看得到那我現在要提出幾個項目我們可以一起來透過這幾個項目我們來檢視的第一個"},{"start":136.106,"end":157.317,"text":"在石棉建材其实很多年前就已经列为我们一级的致癌的建材新的建物都不能用老旧的建物石棉它进到肺部里面要很多年以后才会导致肺病变这一次风灾到了把微屋子摧垮了"},{"start":158.206,"end":187.247,"text":"那正在重建的過程當中能不能有一些誘因跟強過去就有誘因了啦但誘因存在那裡大家不想換反正那處大好好啊那房子在那裡就順順的就好透過這一次能不能加一點半強制加高鼓勵的方式把實棉建材從災後重建的過程當中能夠把它從嘉南平原把它掃掉我不知道院長對這個方面有沒有什麼樣的計畫跟遠景"},{"start":188.803,"end":214.94,"text":"部長先說一下 保養員的確失眠是一個很長久以來的問題我們台灣有二十幾萬棟的房子都有這個東西但是其實這個情況是這樣就是說如果他被破損但是他是破掉才會有問題如果好好的我們不用動他他對我們身體是沒有危害的所以我們是有編定進化逐年的淘汰我現在講的是平時的時候你們就有編定計畫鼓勵替換"},{"start":217.042,"end":232.655,"text":"現在遇到的是天災 類似戰時然後現在這附近的房子 石棉碼被吹掉了我們剛好要把它重建可不可以盤點一下這個社區也許還有七八戶 還有石棉屋頂要不要一起給它鼓勵說做回去 做一邊叫工 比較便宜"},{"start":236.078,"end":258.33,"text":"因為我也到地方去看過很多那最大麻煩是有很多譬如說台南 嘉義很多是好幾戶才共有那一戶所以他們產權他們要解決這個問題就很困難所以我們想辦法要解決我今天提這個問題是點出這個問題這是一個機會我們看到是天災的危機當然產權持分你若不想要本業財產你若不想要自己家蓋新的你懂我意思嗎"},{"start":259.15,"end":285.308,"text":"在建材的修繕上管理人 居住人他不會說牆壁上釘個釘子還要持份人蓋章所以在鼓勵的措施上我們這個社區既然有幾間石棉瓦工廠石棉瓦屋頂的老宅被摧垮了就是要重建了工要進來 宅要進來透過我們的民政體系統計一下還有七戶 六戶他們雖然房子沒有受損但是在那裡你永遠不知道他什麼時候會致癌"},{"start":286.109,"end":302.859,"text":"那透過跟他溝通一下我給你帶新的好不好給你鼓勵 給你補足把這一個環境致癌物呢透過天災把它扭轉我樂見我也期待環境部可以往前push多做一點而不是看到困難就停下來那要等一陣子啦"},{"start":303.399,"end":309.161,"text":"我了解委員的用意希望在這次的過程當中盡量把那些可能的致癌物少用不要用讓他未來不會再出現就在把人從"},{"start":325.837,"end":347.525,"text":"難以生活回到可以維持一般的生活但我們可以更進一步把他生活當中的不好的部分把它去除掉那這個就往前做的更多一點點我們看下面這個數據我請工程會來研究注意能不能在這個要做到相當的程度讓大家安心要不然這次你看石棉把吹下來連去清運都要帶防護衣"},{"start":349.085,"end":370.508,"text":"那把它拿走之後 對未來抗災的韌性其實也是提高的透過一點誘因 透過民政系統 透過這個趨利去跟他講這個概念說 那是性感情的啦現在看不到二十天後換 你也沒得拖背那透過這個方式 我給他多一點補助隔壁剛才吹倒了 現在在修理 這會大打的 多做一點"},{"start":371.57,"end":397.519,"text":"人民會有感受的這片土地會有回饋的那個大概我們現在編了7.8億所以這個部分會全力來支援台南嘉義災疾因為那邊的量大到大到可能駐北部人不理解其實這量相當大他已經列為一級致癌物那個量算多的 很多很多那我現在來看一下我們這一次光台南市嘉義還有其實整個加起來是4萬多戶光台南市民宅的毀損觸定消息30804戶"},{"start":400.72,"end":420.223,"text":"大家可以想像三萬零八百零四戶那個分佈的範圍然後呢這個丹納斯颱風吹完之後緊接著兩百毫米的大雨又接著來光台南三萬多戶齁出町如果要蓬佈一戶給你用五台就好了你知道要多少帆布"},{"start":421.169,"end":446.869,"text":"然後那個狀況要去救災要去重建要去清運垃圾要處理人要處理產權要處理垃圾清運要附電要通信所以我還是那句話我剛才聽了一小段其他同仁的質詢真的大家都來多做一點但是不要因為自己我去的時候旁邊沒人就以為都沒有人在做其實基層的公務人員都很辛苦我們陳金德政委在現場"},{"start":448.07,"end":475.127,"text":"指揮到都知道 那個其實沒命沒力了大家不忍心自己的署名 才會這樣嘛那這3萬多戶裡面呢大概我根據他的區域這17個區域還有他的坪數 大概有個分類那這裡面難處在哪裡呢我們的復健通常是叫救急我讓你不流水就好但在救急的時候這個禮拜搞不好又有個颱風要來啊對啊 然後"},{"start":477.11,"end":505.673,"text":"可能有豪大雨啊 我又要救急我又希望這個臨時的救急的設施要能夠穩固抗災然後呢 這裡有很多紅色的住在 住在北部土地的人哎喲 我們的人怎麼住在這種破落戶裡面好可憐喔 那個是標準的從北部天龍新帶看南部三合院 農村的風光那是有文化底蘊的甚至於三合院 你去看那個黃坤湖國策顧問他到現在也住三合院啊"},{"start":506.584,"end":532.202,"text":"三盡的三百億啊整個本手存手啊三合院有它的歷史的底蘊在農村地帶這種紅色處有它的美甚至有的是有文化資產保存的價值像我們台南的喜樹聚落是全台灣最大的三合院的聚落我很擔心說重建之後通通變鐵皮屋你懂我的意思嗎因為這很難啦這個我要跟院長跟政委跟部長講"},{"start":537.116,"end":553.985,"text":"我只是說跟各位共同探討我又要救急希望他不會漏水趕快搭起來我又希望這個東西能夠很穩固下一個颱風來不會飛走然後呢地方這些老屋老宅他那個屋子那個屋子其實現在材料都沒了"},{"start":555.009,"end":578.888,"text":"所以怎麼樣在材料、地貌、地景穩固跟緊急救急之間有它的困難度我是不是先請陳金德指揮官你有讀到這個困難點嗎這到底要怎麼處理因為這個三合院或是比較鄉下的老宅都是繼承很久就沒有繼承好幾代人60年、70年、80年那天總統去看那一戶98年的房子"},{"start":582.771,"end":598.907,"text":"所以它很多人共用所以根本沒辦法改建因為沒有辦法改建所以就沒力了沒力了所以每個房子都已經很老舊了這是第一個那第二個有的是國有土地那國有土地你如果說材料要重建就面臨重建的問題"},{"start":600.268,"end":617.224,"text":"那為什麼有這麼多因為南部 嘉蘭平原很少碰到這麼大的風災120年來第一次直接掃上來就是碰到這麼大的風災所以這一次問題才呈現出來有那麼多戶房子被掀掉那你如果說東部地區因為它經常面對颱風"},{"start":619.405,"end":643.359,"text":"類似的房子都已經被吹掉很多東部經常面對災殃它的韌性會好一點關於這些瓦的問題那麼台南市這邊也有人建議說台南市政府的文化局應該成立一個類似屋瓦的銀行啦有的拆下來不用的就收集有的要用的就給他他們用這個方式這位好 就指揮官這邊好"},{"start":645.425,"end":648.877,"text":"你這個建議方向是對的我剛才講難處就是你一手要救急"},{"start":649.926,"end":677.4,"text":"直接把它搭起來一手要文化保存然後又希望這個東西能夠穩穩固固的抗災啊 抗震啊等等這個很難你剛才講是一個方向烏瓦銀行啊 古厝拆下來可以刷來這裡銀或者有一些規格比較好的現代的建材可以去取代舊的烏瓦至少風貌不要改變太多把規格訂好在重建的時候針對多少尼哥衣裳的老厝我被處定在修理的時候"},{"start":678.661,"end":702.11,"text":"那個規格不一樣我補助給你多一點點只為了維持嘉南平原這一兩百年來農村的風貌這個我覺得可以多用一點點心多做一點讓在地人民感受一點真的不要風災之後呢轉播變鐵皮屋這個其實是一個問題那我剛才講的因為今天時間關係救急又要穩固其實是兩難"},{"start":704.093,"end":716.432,"text":"我沒有去到現場的人很容易講風涼話我不希望是這樣的情形我舉帆布的例子我跟救災指揮官曾經的政委討論過我現在看到一個隱憂就是帆布"},{"start":717.358,"end":745.459,"text":"帆布是不得不第一時間三萬幾間房子在漏水你不搭帆布你要叫那個老人在家裡淋雨嗎而且會漏電我那天去那邊被電到那個會漏電所以不得不要用去嫌棄帆布的人是不曉得他第一時間屋子在漏水屋漏偏逢連夜雨他只用帆布把它蓋起來可現在問題來了颱風今天進來這數萬片的帆布蓋在這些脆弱的屋子的頂上"},{"start":747.179,"end":775.743,"text":"不用16、7級風9級以上一吹我們都可以想像會發生什麼事情這個防布綁著屋子 屋子本來就脆弱了綁得夠牢靠會不會像風防一樣把整個房子拔掉綁得不牢靠飛走 不用多一萬片飛走我們所有的水路 水路 水門 排水道被這防布水往低速流往那邊集中的時候塞住了橋墩塞住了所以"},{"start":777.11,"end":786.291,"text":"現在面對的是颱風即將進來這些帆布都是綁著甚至用磚頭壓在屋頂上這今天你要知道這個要怎麼辦"},{"start":788.731,"end":808.405,"text":"報告委員 目前在進行的 媒合的很快目前安排媒合的已經有1917 完成確定210我們認為要迅速的把這個屋頂用類似其他的金屬板來鋪上去用浪板把它蓋起來浪板和彩色金屬板我們討論過這個數據 因為3萬多戶"},{"start":812.649,"end":828.932,"text":"來爆煤河的大概兩層有八層裡面大概有一大部分是因為要拆掉了他自己要處理了還有一部分是沒有來申報的啦縱使有煤河那兩層我們那天聽到的是兩個禮拜內完工嘛在拼兩個禮拜內完工嘛那我現在講的颱風是今天啊"},{"start":830.327,"end":854.218,"text":"這個颱風的部分我們認為帆布不是長久之計那如果颱風來了為了避免這個災民在第二次受到這個災損我們請台南市政府必要的時候應該做這個預防性的撤離我建議是這樣子如果預判這個颱風會進來會到那個位置帆布的部分要做適當的處理"},{"start":856.598,"end":881.156,"text":"拿下來是一種處理綁緊是一種處理看那個房子的狀態人要做妥適的安置萬事不如人重要跟委員報告今天這個楊柳颱風應該二級的中央應變中心二級已經開設了預計今天中午左右一級會開設我們已經透過中央應變中心要求地方政府全部的處理趕快把它安全上處置"},{"start":881.796,"end":897.412,"text":"能夠讓他更穩固人員要事先撤離我今天在大院質詢之後 傍晚之後我也會到應變中心再去實地了解當下立即會發生的事情我強調一次帆布在糾結的時候是必要要做的可是面對連續的災難過來的時候"},{"start":899.834,"end":915.125,"text":"這個帆布可能反而成為自災因子這個要妥善處理我最後提這一個其實很多點我先舉個例子當時蘇貞昌院長編了78億那還被人家罵被人家笑把平和公路141公里把它2200多支電桿地下化"},{"start":916.345,"end":933.591,"text":"以前颱風一來那邊停電幾乎都是主供應電線被吹斷電線桿被吹倒如果有到北門地區會發現那個電桿是燃藥折斷所以透過這次復電重建台電能源的辛苦我們未來能不能啟動嘉南的主供應電線的全面地下化把他放"},{"start":947.196,"end":948.802,"text":"好 謝謝王定宇委員質詢謝謝卓院長 相關部會所長的備詢謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":275,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時6分）謝謝院長，麻煩卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：王委員好，辛苦了，謝謝。"],["王委員定宇：早安。其實我有很多重要題目要談，不過剛剛聽了一下我有個感慨，身為臺南人，任何人來幫我們，哪怕只幫一個小時，我們都充滿了感謝，但是千萬不要以為你有幫忙，別人什麼都沒做；你有來，別人就放在那邊自生自滅，去貶抑當地的努力不會讓自己更偉大。","回到我們的題目，這次是一個危機，120年來第一次有颱風從嘉義、臺南平原衝上來。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["王委員定宇：120年來第一次考驗我們的糧倉嘉南平原，更是考驗現在的科技廊帶能不能有抗災的韌性，所以我們希望這一次的救災不僅是救急，更能夠從根本上解決一些問題。危機就是轉機，透過這個災難的重建過程，將國土抗災韌性提高。現在都講韌性臺灣，我們之前遇到百年大旱，還好8年800億裡面有關不管是工業水井、伏流水、水庫浚深或者是幾個連通管的接通，才能夠讓我們經過兩年多幾乎沒什麼下雨的百年大旱卻沒有停水，最多是減壓供水，所以平時做好基礎建設，遇到災難的時候讓韌性發揮出來，感覺不到政府的存在，反而是一件好事。","這次的題目很多，在現場的不管是經濟部或者指揮官陳金德政委等等，其實做了相當多的努力，外界未必看得到。我現在要提出幾個項目，我們可以透過這幾個項目來檢視，第一個，石綿建材其實很多年前就已經列為我們一級的致癌建材，新的建物都不能用，而老舊的建物用的石綿進到肺部裡面要很多年以後才會導致肺病變。這一次風災到了，把屋子吹垮，正在重建的過程當中，雖然過去就有誘因了，但誘因存在那裡大家不想換，反正房子搭得好好的、板子在那邊順順地就好，能不能透過這一次加一點半強制、加高鼓勵的方式，把石綿建材在災後重建的過程當中，能夠從嘉南平原掃掉？我不知道院長對這方面有沒有什麼樣的計畫跟遠景？"],["卓院長榮泰：部長先說一下石綿的這個問題。"],["王委員定宇：彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實石綿是很長久以來的一個問題，臺灣有二十幾萬棟房子都有這個東西，但情況是這樣，如果它破損了……"],["王委員定宇：我們還是小孩的時候，屋頂都是石綿瓦。"],["彭部長啓明：都是這樣啊！但它是破掉才會有問題，如果好好的我們不用動它，它對身體是沒有危害的，所以我們是有編訂計畫、逐年淘汰……"],["王委員定宇：我現在講的是，平時的時候你們就有編訂計畫鼓勵替換。"],["彭部長啓明：對，但是數量相當的大……"],["王委員定宇：現在遇到的是天災，類似戰時。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["王委員定宇：然後現在這附近的房子石綿瓦被吹掉了，我們剛好要重建，可不可以盤點一下，這個社區也許還有七、八戶有石綿瓦的屋頂，要不要鼓勵他們一起重搭，一起叫工會比較便宜？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為我也去地方看過很多，最大的麻煩是例如臺南、嘉義有很多是好幾戶共有一戶的產權，他們要解決這個問題就很困難，所以我們要想辦法解決。"],["王委員定宇：我今天提這個是要點出這個問題，這是一個機會，我們是看到天災的危機，至於產權持分，既沒有要他們分財產，也沒有要幫他們蓋新房子，你懂我的意思嗎？是在建材的修繕上，管理人、居住人不會說牆壁上釘一個釘子還要持分人蓋章啦！所以在鼓勵的措施上，這個社區既然有幾家石綿瓦工廠、石綿瓦屋頂的老宅被吹垮，就是要重建，工要進來了、材料要進來了，透過民政體系統計一下還有7戶、6戶，雖然房子沒有受損，但是在那裡，你永遠不知道它什麼時候會致癌，那就跟他溝通一下，說：「我給你鼓勵、給你補助，幫你搭新的，好不好？」透過天災，把這個環境致癌物扭轉。我樂見也期待環境部可以往前push，多做一點。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["王委員定宇：而不是看到困難就停下來。那個不用蓋章啦！"],["彭部長啓明：我知道、我知道。"],["王委員定宇：如果搭屋頂要蓋章，這次被颱風吹走要重建的為什麼不用蓋章？所以那不是理由，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["王委員定宇：院長，這一塊就是從危機可以建構轉機的部分。"],["卓院長榮泰：我瞭解委員的用意，希望在這次的過程當中，儘量把那些可能的致癌物少用、不要用，讓它未來不會……"],["王委員定宇：讓它絕跡啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：這個我會提供給……"],["王委員定宇：我們期待的是，救災把人從難以生活回到可以維持一般的生活，但我們可以更進一步，把他生活當中不好的部分去除掉，這樣就往前做得更多一點點。"],["卓院長榮泰：我會請工程會來研究、注意，能不能在這個地方做到相當的程度，讓大家安心，謝謝委員。"],["王委員定宇：要加速啦！不然你看這次石綿瓦吹下來，連去清運都要穿防護衣耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["王委員定宇：把它拿走之後，未來抗災的韌性其實也能提高，透過一點誘因、透過民政系統、透過區里跟他們說：「這是會致癌的，現在看不到，20年後罹癌也無從求償。」要透過這個方式，給他們多一點補助，剛好隔壁的被吹倒了，正在修理，就一起搭一搭。多做一點，人民會有感受的、這片土地會有回饋的！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們現在編了7.8億，這個部分會全力來支援臺南、嘉義災區重建。"],["王委員定宇：那邊的量大到可能住北部的人不理解，其實那個量相當大，它已經被列為一級致癌物，而且量是以噸計算，實在非常多！","這次不光是臺南市，嘉義也有，其實整個加起來是四萬多戶。光臺南市民宅毀損、屋頂被掀走的就有3萬804戶，大家可以想像一下3萬804戶分布的範圍，而且丹娜絲颱風吹完之後，200毫米的大雨又接著來，光是臺南這三萬多戶的屋頂要蓋帆布，一戶5塊就好了，你想想看要多少帆布！在那個狀況下，要去救災、要去重建、要去清運垃圾、要處理人、要處理產權、要處理垃圾清運、要復電、要通訊！","所以我還是那句話，我剛才聽了一小段其他同仁的質詢，真的，大家都來多做一點，但是不要因為自己去的時候旁邊沒人，就以為都沒有人在做。其實基層的公務人員都很辛苦，陳金德政委在現場指揮就知道，那其實是沒日沒夜的，大家都不忍心自己的左鄰右舍這樣嘛！","在這三萬多戶裡面，我根據17個區域還有它的坪數大概有個分類，這裡面的難處在哪裡？我們的復建通常是救急，讓它不會漏水就好，但是在救急的時候，這個禮拜搞不好又有一個颱風要來……"],["卓院長榮泰：明天。"],["王委員定宇：對啊！然後可能會有豪大雨啊！我們既要救急，又希望臨時的救急設施能夠穩固、抗災，那邊有很多「紅瓦厝」，住在北部都市的人會認為：那裡的人怎麼住在這種破落戶裡面，好可憐！其實那是標準的從北部天龍心態在看南部！三合院、農村風光是有文化底蘊的，甚至你去看國策顧問黃崑虎，他到現在還住在三進的三合院，有好幾個「旁手」、「伸手」啊！三合院有它的歷史底蘊，在農村地帶，這種「紅瓦厝」有它的美，甚至有的有文化資產保存的價值，像臺南的喜樹聚落是全臺灣最大的三合院聚落，我很擔心重建之後通通變鐵皮屋，你懂我意思嗎？這很難啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：很難啦。"],["王委員定宇：我要跟院長、政委、部長講，我來做也不會比你們好，我只是跟各位共同探討，要救急，希望它不會漏水，趕快搭起來，又希望這個東西能夠很穩固，下一個颱風來不會飛走，然後地方這些老屋、老宅的屋瓦，其實現在材料都沒了，所以怎麼樣在材料、地貌、地景、穩固跟緊急、救急之間平衡，有它的困難度，我是不是先請問陳金德指揮官，你有遇到這個困難點嗎？這到底要怎麼處理？"],["陳主任委員金德：因為三合院或是比較鄉下的這些老宅都是好幾代人……"],["王委員定宇：那都一、兩百年了。"],["陳主任委員金德：60年、70年、80年，那天總統去看那一戶是98年的房子，因為很多人共有，所以根本沒辦法改建，也因為沒有辦法改建，就姑且留下來了，所以每個房子都已經很老舊了，這是第一個。第二個，有的是國有土地，國有土地如果拆掉就面臨重建的問題，為什麼有這麼多？因為南部嘉南平原很少碰到這麼大的風災……"],["王委員定宇：120年來第一次直接掃上來。"],["陳主任委員金德：就是碰到這麼大的風災，所以這次問題才呈現出來，有那麼多戶房子屋頂被掀掉，如果是東部地區因為經常面對颱風，類似的房子都已經被吹掉很多次……"],["王委員定宇：東部經常面對災殃，它的韌性會好一點。"],["陳主任委員金德：關於這些瓦的問題，也有人建議臺南市政府文化局應該成立一個類似屋瓦的銀行，有的拆下來不用的就蒐集，有的要用的就給他，利用這個方式。"],["王委員定宇：政委，就指揮官這個建議方向是對的，我剛才講難處就是一手要救急，急著把它搭起來，一手要文化保存，然後又希望這個東西能夠穩穩固固的抗災、抗震等等，很難。你剛才講的是一個方向，屋瓦銀行，舊房子拆下來可以移來這裡用，或者有一些規格比較好的現代建材可以取代舊的屋瓦，至少風貌不要改變太多，把規格訂好，在重建的時候，針對多少「年閣」以上的老屋，在修理屋頂的時候，規格不一樣，補助給多一點點，只為了維持嘉南平原這一、兩百年來農村的風貌，這個我覺得可以多用一點點心，多做一點，讓在地人民多感受一點，真的不要風災之後全部變鐵皮屋，這其實是一個問題。我剛才講的，因為今天時間的關係，救急又要穩固其實是兩難，沒有到現場的人很容易講風涼話，我不希望是這樣的情形。我舉帆布的例子，我跟救災指揮官陳金德政委討論過，我現在看到一個隱憂就是帆布，帆布是不得不用的，第一時間三萬多間房子在漏水，不搭帆布，要叫老人在家裡淋雨嗎？而且會漏電，我那天去那邊就被電到，因為會漏電，所以不得不用，嫌棄帆布的人是不曉得第一時間屋子在漏水，屋漏偏逢連夜雨，只能用帆布把它蓋起來。可是現在問題來了，颱風今天進來，這數萬片的帆布蓋在這些脆弱的屋頂上，不用16級、17級風，9級以上一吹，我們都可以想像會發生什麼事情。這個帆布綁著屋子，屋子本來就脆弱了，綁得夠牢靠，會不會像風帆一樣，把整個房子拔掉？綁得不牢靠，不用多，1萬片飛走，所有的水路、水門、排水道可能被帆布塞住，水往低處流，往那邊集中的時候塞住了，橋墩塞住了，現在面對的是颱風即將進來，這些帆布都是綁著，甚至用磚頭壓在屋頂上，金德兄也知道，這要怎麼辦？"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，目前進行得媒合很快，安排媒合的已經有1,917，完成確認的有210，我們認為要迅速的把屋頂用其他金屬板鋪上去……"],["王委員定宇：用板子、浪板把它蓋起來。"],["陳主任委員金德：浪板或彩色金屬板……"],["王委員定宇：這個我曉得，因為我們討論過數據，有三萬多戶來申報，媒合的大概兩成，其他八成大概有一大部分是因為要拆掉，他們自己要處理，還有一部分是沒有來申報的，縱使有媒合的那兩成，我那天聽到是兩個禮拜內完工、拚兩個禮拜內完工，但我現在講的是，颱風是今天！"],["陳主任委員金德：颱風的部分，我們認為帆布不是長久之計，如果颱風來了，為了避免災民再第二次受到災損，我們請臺南市政府在必要的時候，應該做預防性撤離。"],["王委員定宇：我的建議是這樣子，如果預判這個颱風會進來、會到那個位置，帆布的部分要做適當處理，拿下來是一種處理，綁緊也是一種處理，要看那個房子的狀態，人要妥適的安置，萬事不如人重要，人要安置好。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，針對楊柳颱風，中央應變中心二級已經開設了，預計今天中午左右……"],["王委員定宇：這個問題要處理，因為……"],["卓院長榮泰：中午左右一級會開設，我們已經透過中央應變中心要求地方政府，帆布的處理要趕快安全處置，讓它能夠更穩固，人員要事先撤離……"],["王委員定宇：是，是。"],["卓院長榮泰：我今天在大院備詢之後、傍晚之後，也會到應變中心再去實地了解，做好要求。"],["王委員定宇：對，這個執行要去落實，因為這是當下立即會發生的事情。我再強調一次，帆布在救急的時候是必要要做的，可是面對連續災難來臨的時候，帆布可能反而成為致災因子，這個要妥善處理。","我最後提一點，其實有很多點，但我先舉這個例子，就是當時蘇貞昌院長編了78億，要把屏鵝公路141公里的兩千兩百多支電桿地下化，那時候還被人家罵、被人家笑，那邊幾乎都是主供應電線，颱風一來，電線就被吹斷、電線桿被吹倒，如果有到北門地區看，就會發現電桿都是攔腰折斷，透過這一次復電、重建，以及體恤台電人員的辛苦，未來能不能啟動嘉南主供應電線的全面地下化，把經費放進預算裡？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果不是易淹水地區，我們會慎重考慮，在工程沒有困難的部分，我們會想辦法用技術跟預算來補足，但對於易淹水地區，目前施工上還是有一點困難。"],["王委員定宇：好，謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝王定宇委員質詢，也謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","報告院會，現在休息10分鐘，之後請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。現在休息。","休息（10時22分）","繼續開會（10時32分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":138,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-24","speakers":["韓國瑜","鍾佳濱","傅崐萁","林國成","王定宇","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","徐富癸","張嘉郡","賴惠員","謝龍介","林俊憲","王育敏","蔡易餘","邱鎮軍","郭國文","蘇清泉","陳冠廷","盧縣一","林岱樺","羅智強","劉建國","黃建賓"],"page_start":41,"meetingDate":["2025-08-12"],"gazette_id":"1147001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147001_00003","1147001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第24次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「丹娜絲颱風及七二八豪雨災後復原重建」專案報告並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147001_00006"}}}