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{\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 92.489, \"end\": 93.45, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 93.45, \"end\": 93.61, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 93.61, \"end\": 93.91, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 93.91, \"end\": 94.03, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 94.03, \"end\": 94.21, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 94.21, \"end\": 94.35, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 94.35, \"end\": 94.45, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 94.45, \"end\": 94.69, \"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 94.69, \"end\": 95.051, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"源\", \"start\": 95.051, \"end\": 95.471, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"濫\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 95.471, \"end\": 95.651, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 95.651, \"end\": 96.992, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 96.992, \"end\": 97.132, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 97.132, \"end\": 97.272, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 97.272, \"end\": 97.472, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"廉\", \"start\": 97.472, \"end\": 97.632, \"score\": 0.767}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 97.632, \"end\": 97.793, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 97.793, \"end\": 98.173, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 98.173, \"end\": 98.313, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 98.313, \"end\": 99.394, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"盤\"}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 99.394, \"end\": 99.714, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"防\", \"start\": 99.714, \"end\": 100.294, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"灘\"}, {\"word\": \"指\", \"start\": 100.294, \"end\": 100.514, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"引\", \"start\": 100.514, \"end\": 100.715, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 100.715, \"end\": 102.196, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 102.196, \"end\": 103.817, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 103.817, \"end\": 103.917, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 103.917, \"end\": 104.057, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 104.057, \"end\": 104.177, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 104.177, \"end\": 104.277, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 104.277, \"end\": 104.377, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 104.377, \"end\": 104.517, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 104.517, \"end\": 104.677, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"依\", \"start\": 104.677, \"end\": 105.097, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 105.097, \"end\": 105.318, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 105.318, \"end\": 105.878, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"源\", \"start\": 105.878, \"end\": 106.098, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 106.098, \"end\": 106.258, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 106.258, \"end\": 106.759, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 106.759, \"end\": 107.039, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"依\", \"start\": 107.039, \"end\": 107.299, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 107.299, \"end\": 107.579, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 107.579, \"end\": 107.779, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 107.779, \"end\": 107.939, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 107.939, \"end\": 108.24, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"使\", \"start\": 108.24, \"end\": 108.44, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 108.44, \"end\": 109.601, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 109.601, \"end\": 110.041, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"界\", \"start\": 110.041, \"end\": 110.261, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"限\", \"start\": 110.261, \"end\": 111.162, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 111.162, \"end\": 111.222, \"score\": 0.709}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 111.222, \"end\": 111.382, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 111.382, \"end\": 111.622, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 111.622, \"end\": 111.862, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 111.862, \"end\": 112.062, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"治\", \"start\": 112.062, \"end\": 112.683, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"鬥\"}, {\"word\": \"爭\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 112.683, \"end\": 112.863, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"特\", \"start\": 112.863, \"end\": 113.383, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"濫\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 113.383, \"end\": 113.563, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 113.563, \"end\": 113.863, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": 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131.481, \"end\": 131.661, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 131.661, \"end\": 132.062, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 132.062, \"end\": 132.242, \"score\": 0.786}, {\"word\": \"忽\", \"start\": 132.242, \"end\": 132.462, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"略\", \"start\": 132.462, \"end\": 132.482, \"score\": 0.412}]}, {\"start\": 133.263, \"end\": 159.811, \"text\": \"那本席舉一個例子在今年的3月29號那麼內政部長在民進黨應該是一個叫做政策宣導的人民是投家這樣一個宣講當中那公開的呼籲要罷免在野黨的這個立委然後反覆的在講這個有關於租金補貼這跟我們預算有關租金補貼的預算因為被砍了所以10月11月就可能用完但是我們知道這整個預算其實是比較複雜那這樣講有點簡化到\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 133.263, \"end\": 133.663, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 133.663, \"end\": 133.823, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 133.823, \"end\": 134.083, \"score\": 0.786}, {\"word\": \"舉\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 134.083, \"end\": 134.263, \"score\": 0.586}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 134.263, \"end\": 134.483, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:10,885 --> 00:00:20,897\n好謝謝昭偉我先請中選會主委跟全序部的部長李主委跟施部長\n\n2\n00:00:29,467 --> 00:00:41,455\n謝謝昭緯感謝昭緯今天設定這樣一個題目這樣子相關的議題我們先前也有一些討論今天當然是有幾個重點我就直接來進入這個重點我今天\n\n3\n00:00:46,098 --> 00:01:07,726\n整體大概聚焦三個方向第一個是在所謂的政務人員在政策宣講的時候是不是能夠遵守行政中立尤其是這個宣講的內容涉及到不太不詳實的數據還有不太正確的一個內容導致一些恐慌跟\n\n4\n00:01:09,767 --> 00:01:20,598\n有的時候是意圖有的時候是可能沒有注意影響了一些選罷的這個結果那這個部分該如何究責那第二個部分是那中選會在選罷的這個電視說明會上如果碰到明顯違反選罷法的言論或者是有一點恐嚇的一個導向\n\n5\n00:01:29,807 --> 00:01:54,084\n是不是有一些及時處理跟通報的機制第三個部分是有關於公務資源濫用的問題是不是廉政署這邊有一個盤點跟防灘指引的處理這個部分最主要都是依據行政資源跟公權力依法公正的使用在這個界限內不要成為一個政治鬥爭或特權濫用的工具\n\n6\n00:01:54,824 --> 00:02:12,482\n所以本席在這邊請教一下就是政務人員在選罷活動當中刻意或者是無意的造謠的救責在行政中立還有重大的政治動員當中有的時候好像會被刻意的被忽略\n\n7\n00:02:13,263 --> 00:02:39,811\n那本席舉一個例子在今年的3月29號那麼內政部長在民進黨應該是一個叫做政策宣導的人民是投家這樣一個宣講當中那公開的呼籲要罷免在野黨的這個立委然後反覆的在講這個有關於租金補貼這跟我們預算有關租金補貼的預算因為被砍了所以10月11月就可能用完但是我們知道這整個預算其實是比較複雜那這樣講有點簡化到\n\n8\n00:02:42,532 --> 00:02:57,899\n似乎跟事情的本質差異太大所以但事實上應該這個中央的租金補貼是一個延續性的計畫那總預算就算還沒有處理完那也能夠依據先前的這個核定的額度來動之\n\n9\n00:02:59,199 --> 00:03:25,877\n那這個部分其實跟實際上的一個影響似乎有點很大的落差在這個政務官這樣講起來所以他其實並不是這麼直接的一個影響但是呢這種內容就有可能導致某一些結果產生那麼這樣一個可以透過客觀查證的一個數字落差那麼在政治宣講當中政策宣講當中呢有點被\n\n10\n00:03:26,437 --> 00:03:53,795\n包裝成為一種恐慌敘事的一個反覆敘說那結果又成為這個我們講直接講罷免好了的一個訴求的這個中心那這樣子的言論其實有大家聽起來是有點喪失了這個行政中立那也不太平衡所以我們就講到這個公職人員選舉罷免法104條所規範的散佈不實之事那足以影響\n\n11\n00:03:55,517 --> 00:04:20,675\n選罷的這個結果的範圍因此本席這邊來請教第一個是針對中選會對於政務人員在這個政治場合當中涉及具體的政策資訊的不實還有數據上的落差中選會認為這個還是屬於政策說明的範圍嗎然後第二個部分是這一類的爭議是不是有主動收\n\n12\n00:04:22,076 --> 00:04:46,468\n證跟通報檢調的一個機制還是只能等著被動的等待有人檢舉那第三個部分是是不是認同政務官雖然其實剛才這個主委這邊有講到過就是您對政務官在公務人員行政中立法的適用的內容上\n\n13\n00:04:47,268 --> 00:05:03,881\n我想聽聽您這個部分的看法剛才我們召委在詢答的時候其實也有提到先前參考了考試院的一些版本針對政務官在公務人員行政中立的這個部分是不是要再進一步的做一些討論這個我想聽聽中選會的意見\n\n14\n00:05:08,064 --> 00:05:27,967\n那我是不是先到這邊那待會再問一下全序部所以主委是不是可以我剛才舉的利是相對比較實質的但是我們講的是一個比較客觀中立還有整體性的一個概念那主委您這邊針對我剛才講的例子還有這樣一個概念上的看法\n\n15\n00:05:29,008 --> 00:05:43,598\n好謝謝委員的指教那有關於政務官其實包括所有的公務人員他們應該要維持行政中立尤其是在選舉罷免期間的行政中立是大家都非常的關切\n\n16\n00:05:44,498 --> 00:06:09,588\n對那我這邊其實對於這個它產生的這樣一個情形在選舉過程當中怎麼去處理如何規範這個擅見在各個法律不只是在公職人員選舉罷免法上面那權責機關也是各有不同所以大家共同來維護行政中立這樣一個核心的價值\n\n17\n00:06:11,048 --> 00:06:36,013\n就選罷法的部分來講大概直接牽涉到的有兩個法條另外一個剛剛委員所提到的104條兩個法條裡面第一個就是選罷法的第50條這是規範中央跟地方的機關在選罷期間裡面不得從事宣傳等等這個如果是違反的話\n\n18\n00:06:37,613 --> 00:06:53,590\n有刑事責任的規定包括機關的首長他的代理人等等這個在50條有明文的規定權責機關因為牽涉到刑事的責任就是由司法機關他們來做處理\n\n19\n00:06:56,172 --> 00:07:24,843\n我這邊跟您請教一下所以如果是在結果還沒有出來之前就有這樣一個情形那你們是會主動收政然後來通報檢調還是要等著有人來提出被動的一個等待檢舉呢通常啦因為在選舉期間我們的選務本身就非常的忙碌那包括我等一下要講的就是選罷法第45條我們還有選務人員行政中立的這個規定\n\n20\n00:07:25,863 --> 00:07:48,465\n我今天這個部分是比較針對政務官在應該是要做政策宣導結果就變成一種意識形態跟影響結果的內容我要跟委員報告的這個就是牽涉兩個部分一個是政治責任的部分這個我們管不到至於是刑事責任有沒有牽涉到這個是屬於司法機關他們的權限\n\n21\n00:07:50,427 --> 00:08:04,977\n在這個整個選舉的過程裡面可能我們比較沒有餘力那可以來關照這一部分但是該我們管的我們要管那就是45條選務人員必須要中立什麼行為不能做不能做這45條都有明確的規定\n\n22\n00:08:06,778 --> 00:08:22,680\n所以應該是你們這邊比較能夠處理的是選務人員的這個部分我們主動應該要負起責任就像您剛才講的這個無餘力但是我這邊也是做個提醒因為我想近期的這樣一個氛圍其實大家常常聽到可能比較\n\n23\n00:08:24,122 --> 00:08:36,979\n越界的一些言論然後會引起社會的一些疑問跟恐慌至於104條的部分也是一樣是屬於司法機關的權責好的好謝謝全區部可以請教一下嗎\n\n24\n00:08:38,781 --> 00:08:52,254\n應該公務人員的行政中立是由你們這邊來處理的但是目前政務人員沒有被完全歸納進去所以如果未來政務官在政治動員的場合裡面持續有這種錯誤的資訊或者是差異太大的數據那導致\n\n25\n00:08:57,199 --> 00:09:12,132\n大部分的人會覺得有點混淆事實的政治操作那權序部會不會研議一些明確的法制的這個草案將政務官可以納入裁罰或移送究責的監督範圍呢您的看法\n\n26\n00:09:12,852 --> 00:09:35,535\n我跟委員報告我想任何一個政務官不管是中央或者地方包括鄉鎮市公所類似民選人員在選舉過程的一些言論那本來就不是行政中立法裡面的規範的一個室友那也許就像剛剛主委講的如果如果違反一些可能影響選舉一些活動那自然就有一定的程序應該要去處理我想\n\n27\n00:09:36,716 --> 00:09:54,956\n如果說一個政務人員或者是民選首長不管是他在選舉活動過程裡面有一些也許大家不是有人不認同的一個意見或者認為他真的數據有不正確我想那應該是一個透過政治科者的過程來處理我認為會比較好啦\n\n28\n00:09:56,001 --> 00:10:17,415\n好的那聽起來好像你們都還蠻無力的齁但是我想這樣一個倒不是無力我想這基本上兩套兩套人的一個運作模式不一樣那剛剛昭偉也提到說如果我也建議大家如果真的是要就政務人員這個部分要去立法的話可能我會建議就是說算是一個不一樣的領域應該要大家要好好再去想想怎麼樣立法方式可能最務實啦\n\n29\n00:10:18,055 --> 00:10:44,555\n好像先前考試院也有這樣一個草案的提出嘛那中間一直都沒有在動作是不是有一些考量或者是你們考慮上有一些什麼想法這些考量其實是包括說到底政務人員的主管機關應不應該是考試院因為根據憲法考試院主管公務人員那看起來那所以你們在這個過程當中那是不是應該是考試院那你們還有哪一些選項的可能呢\n\n30\n00:10:47,740 --> 00:10:53,244\n考試院並沒有所有的政務人員都是在行政機關裡面擔任首長\n\n31\n00:10:54,984 --> 00:11:17,295\n並不是在考試院所屬的一個體系所以這也是為什麼當初憲法會考試院主管公務人員主要就是說因為公務人員方式比較跟政務人員不太一樣他不是高度政治性交給考試院來主管其實政務人員真的是高度政治性的一環你們在過程當中除了說可能不太適合由你們來主管的話那你們有什麼樣子的選項的討論呢\n\n32\n00:11:20,357 --> 00:11:44,949\n這個跟我們未來如果還要再提相關的這個草案那有很大的關係所以我也很好奇說你們這麼長久的一段時間那討論起來是不是有其他的選項如果真的要立法立法政策過程裡面大家應該坐下來想想放在哪個地方來主管會比較適合啦那這麼長一段時間你們沒有討論到其他可能的主管機關的一個選項就對了我想\n\n33\n00:11:47,762 --> 00:12:09,250\n沒有特別針對這個問題好好再往下談好的好謝謝但是現在因為整個氛圍還有一些正在進行的事情本席在這邊可能再請教中選會三個問題就是當公辦電視說明會是不是有一些及時可以辨識或者是處置明顯不實言論的一個機制\n\n34\n00:12:11,191 --> 00:12:27,196\n還是這個平台完全開放給任何的發言內容如果已經涉及違法的情形非常大的話你們也不能介入或者是無餘利益第二個部分是如果有一些監看或應對的機制判斷標準跟啟動的時機\n\n35\n00:12:29,517 --> 00:12:53,940\n是什麼那有沒有誰是可以來判定的然後第三個部分是那對於已經明顯違反選罷法104條的情況除了您剛才說這應該有檢調來處理那中選會是不是會主動通報檢調來啟動偵查而不是等外界來檢舉那事後會被動回應那這個部分是不是可以請教一下主委的意見\n\n36\n00:12:55,460 --> 00:13:09,966\n謝謝委員我們現在正在進行公投的意見說明會另外在地方有一些罷免案件的電視說明會也在進行當中關於這些說明會都有我們辦法的一個規制\n\n37\n00:13:11,827 --> 00:13:40,166\n那現場都會有主持人也會有監察人如果有違反我們相關規定的部分他們會做現場立即的處理最嚴重最嚴重就是麥克風關掉麥克風關掉等於是他麥克風關掉之後那個部分完全都不屬於正式的言論的內容但是如果他觸及了麥克風關掉之前他觸及的這個部分除了現場直接去做處理以外那在這個\n\n38\n00:13:42,047 --> 00:13:58,595\n您說的這個司法的這個層面你們會有一些主動的做法如果有違法的情況的話在事後我們會根據事證來做必要的處置比如說是不是有違反這個刑事的法令那這個有職務告發的問題不過到現在為止並不會並沒有發生過這樣子嚴重的狀況\n\n39\n00:14:05,858 --> 00:14:29,826\n可能就您的觀點就目前來講似乎不是那麼的嚴重其實還蠻順利的只是社會各界有的時候會有一些疑問所以我指出來的是說那怎麼樣就像您說消音是很及時的一個處理但是消音前已經有這樣子的疑慮的時候那你們事後做一個處理那我們最主要的一個意旨就是說那我們希望這樣能夠影響不實的言論影響選舉結果的這個衝擊能夠降到最低\n\n40\n00:14:35,388 --> 00:14:56,946\n那希望中選會這邊也能夠更積極的來做處理至少一個社會的風氣讓大家基本上在公開場合要講的話可能要有一些思慮因為所有的代表人他可能都代表某一些能夠教育社會的一些言論所以我想這個部分可以再更積極一點的來處理我們都有現場突發狀況的演練但是到目前為止都沒有派上用場\n\n41\n00:15:03,601 --> 00:15:19,513\n好的那我想今天最主要的一個重點就是說我們希望大家可以來表述不同的想法跟意見但是呢可能有人會故意或有一些人是沒有意識到他的內容其實會導引整個方向太大那這樣子衝擊太大的話可能在尺度上還有分寸上我們就很難拿捏這個東西對整個實質選舉結果的這個影響那我們也希望中選會\n\n42\n00:15:33,724 --> 00:15:56,351\n跟公務人員管理的相關單位我們可以更積極更深入或者是更擴大一些範圍來做一些討論每經過一次的案例我們就可以來做一個整理的檢討讓這樣一個社會氛圍或者是選舉的結果能夠更契合一個社會公平正義的一個原則好謝謝好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10885\t20897\t好 謝謝昭偉我先請中選會主委跟全序部的部長李主委跟施部長\n29467\t41455\t謝謝昭緯感謝昭緯今天設定這樣一個題目這樣子相關的議題我們先前也有一些討論今天當然是有幾個重點我就直接來進入這個重點我今天\n46098\t67726\t整體大概聚焦三個方向第一個是在所謂的政務人員在政策宣講的時候是不是能夠遵守行政中立尤其是這個宣講的內容涉及到不太不詳實的數據還有不太正確的一個內容導致一些恐慌跟\n69767\t80598\t有的時候是意圖有的時候是可能沒有注意影響了一些選罷的這個結果那這個部分該如何究責那第二個部分是那中選會在選罷的這個電視說明會上如果碰到明顯違反選罷法的言論或者是有一點恐嚇的一個導向\n89807\t114084\t是不是有一些及時處理跟通報的機制第三個部分是有關於公務資源濫用的問題是不是廉政署這邊有一個盤點跟防灘指引的處理這個部分最主要都是依據行政資源跟公權力依法公正的使用在這個界限內不要成為一個政治鬥爭或特權濫用的工具\n114824\t132482\t所以本席在這邊請教一下就是政務人員在選罷活動當中刻意或者是無意的造謠的救責在行政中立還有重大的政治動員當中有的時候好像會被刻意的被忽略\n133263\t159811\t那本席舉一個例子在今年的3月29號那麼內政部長在民進黨應該是一個叫做政策宣導的人民是投家這樣一個宣講當中那公開的呼籲要罷免在野黨的這個立委然後反覆的在講這個有關於租金補貼這跟我們預算有關租金補貼的預算因為被砍了所以10月11月就可能用完但是我們知道這整個預算其實是比較複雜那這樣講有點簡化到\n162532\t177899\t似乎跟事情的本質差異太大所以 但事實上應該這個中央的租金補貼是一個延續性的計畫那總預算就算還沒有處理完那也能夠依據先前的這個核定的額度來動之\n179199\t205877\t那這個部分其實跟實際上的一個影響似乎有點很大的落差在這個政務官這樣講起來所以他其實並不是這麼直接的一個影響但是呢這種內容就有可能導致某一些結果產生那麼這樣一個可以透過客觀查證的一個數字落差那麼在政治宣講當中政策宣講當中呢有點被\n206437\t233795\t包裝成為一種恐慌敘事的一個反覆敘說那結果又成為這個我們講直接講罷免好了的一個訴求的這個中心那這樣子的言論其實有大家聽起來是有點喪失了這個行政中立那也不太平衡所以我們就講到這個公職人員選舉罷免法104條所規範的散佈不實之事那足以影響\n235517\t260675\t選罷的這個結果的範圍因此本席這邊來請教第一個是針對中選會對於政務人員在這個政治場合當中涉及具體的政策資訊的不實還有數據上的落差中選會認為這個還是屬於政策說明的範圍嗎然後第二個部分是這一類的爭議是不是有主動收\n262076\t286468\t證跟通報檢調的一個機制還是只能等著被動的等待有人檢舉那第三個部分是是不是認同政務官雖然其實剛才這個主委這邊有講到過就是您對政務官在公務人員行政中立法的適用的內容上\n287268\t303881\t我想聽聽您這個部分的看法剛才我們召委在詢答的時候其實也有提到先前參考了考試院的一些版本針對政務官在公務人員行政中立的這個部分是不是要再進一步的做一些討論這個我想聽聽中選會的意見\n308064\t327967\t那我是不是先到這邊那待會再問一下全序部所以主委是不是可以我剛才舉的利是相對比較實質的但是我們講的是一個比較客觀中立還有整體性的一個概念那主委您這邊針對我剛才講的例子還有這樣一個概念上的看法\n329008\t343598\t好 謝謝委員的指教那有關於政務官其實包括所有的公務人員他們應該要維持行政中立尤其是在選舉罷免期間的行政中立是大家都非常的關切\n344498\t369588\t對 那我這邊其實對於這個它產生的這樣一個情形在選舉過程當中怎麼去處理如何規範這個擅見在各個法律不只是在公職人員選舉罷免法上面那權責機關也是各有不同所以大家共同來維護行政中立這樣一個核心的價值\n371048\t396013\t就選罷法的部分來講大概直接牽涉到的有兩個法條另外一個剛剛委員所提到的104條兩個法條裡面第一個就是選罷法的第50條這是規範中央跟地方的機關在選罷期間裡面不得從事宣傳等等這個如果是違反的話\n397613\t413590\t有刑事責任的規定包括機關的首長他的代理人等等這個在50條有明文的規定權責機關因為牽涉到刑事的責任就是由司法機關他們來做處理\n416172\t444843\t我這邊跟您請教一下所以如果是在結果還沒有出來之前就有這樣一個情形那你們是會主動收政然後來通報檢調還是要等著有人來提出被動的一個等待檢舉呢通常啦 因為在選舉期間我們的選務本身就非常的忙碌那包括我等一下要講的就是選罷法第45條我們還有選務人員行政中立的這個規定\n445863\t468465\t我今天這個部分是比較針對政務官在應該是要做政策宣導結果就變成一種意識形態跟影響結果的內容我要跟委員報告的這個就是牽涉兩個部分一個是政治責任的部分這個我們管不到至於是刑事責任有沒有牽涉到這個是屬於司法機關他們的權限\n470427\t484977\t在這個整個選舉的過程裡面可能我們比較沒有餘力那可以來關照這一部分但是該我們管的我們要管那就是45條選務人員必須要中立什麼行為不能做不能做這45條都有明確的規定\n486778\t502680\t所以應該是你們這邊比較能夠處理的是選務人員的這個部分我們主動應該要負起責任就像您剛才講的這個無餘力但是我這邊也是做個提醒因為我想近期的這樣一個氛圍其實大家常常聽到可能比較\n504122\t516979\t越界的一些言論然後會引起社會的一些疑問跟恐慌至於104條的部分也是一樣是屬於司法機關的權責好的 好 謝謝全區部可以請教一下嗎\n518781\t532254\t應該公務人員的行政中立是由你們這邊來處理的但是目前政務人員沒有被完全歸納進去所以如果未來政務官在政治動員的場合裡面持續有這種錯誤的資訊或者是差異太大的數據那導致\n537199\t552132\t大部分的人會覺得有點混淆事實的政治操作那權序部會不會研議一些明確的法制的這個草案將政務官可以納入裁罰或移送究責的監督範圍呢您的看法\n552852\t575535\t我跟委員報告我想任何一個政務官不管是中央或者地方包括鄉鎮市公所類似民選人員在選舉過程的一些言論那本來就不是行政中立法裡面的規範的一個室友那也許就像剛剛主委講的如果如果違反一些可能影響選舉一些活動那自然就有一定的程序應該要去處理我想\n576716\t594956\t如果說一個政務人員或者是民選首長不管是他在選舉活動過程裡面有一些也許大家不是有人不認同的一個意見或者認為他真的數據有不正確我想那應該是一個透過政治科者的過程來處理我認為會比較好啦\n596001\t617415\t好的 那聽起來好像你們都還蠻無力的齁 但是我想這樣一個倒不是無力 我想這基本上兩套 兩套人的一個運作模式不一樣那剛剛 昭偉也提到說如果 我也建議大家如果真的是要 就政務人員這個部分要去立法的話可能我會建議就是說 算是一個不一樣的領域應該要 大家要好好再去想想 怎麼樣立法方式可能最務實啦\n618055\t644555\t好像先前考試院也有這樣一個草案的提出嘛那中間一直都沒有在動作是不是有一些考量或者是你們考慮上有一些什麼想法 這些考量其實是包括說到底政務人員的主管機關應不應該是考試院因為根據憲法考試院主管公務人員那看起來那所以你們在這個過程當中那是不是應該是考試院那你們還有哪一些選項的可能呢\n647740\t653244\t考試院並沒有所有的政務人員都是在行政機關裡面擔任首長\n654984\t677295\t並不是在考試院所屬的一個體系所以這也是為什麼當初憲法會考試院主管公務人員主要就是說因為公務人員方式比較跟政務人員不太一樣他不是高度政治性交給考試院來主管其實政務人員真的是高度政治性的一環你們在過程當中除了說可能不太適合由你們來主管的話那你們有什麼樣子的選項的討論呢\n680357\t704949\t這個跟我們未來如果還要再提相關的這個草案那有很大的關係所以我也很好奇說你們這麼長久的一段時間那討論起來是不是有其他的選項如果真的要立法立法政策過程裡面大家應該坐下來想想放在哪個地方來主管會比較適合啦那這麼長一段時間你們沒有討論到其他可能的主管機關的一個選項就對了我想\n707762\t729250\t沒有特別針對這個問題好好再往下談好的 好 謝謝但是現在因為整個氛圍還有一些正在進行的事情本席在這邊可能再請教中選會三個問題就是當公辦電視說明會是不是有一些及時可以辨識或者是處置明顯不實言論的一個機制\n731191\t747196\t還是這個平台完全開放給任何的發言內容如果已經涉及違法的情形非常大的話你們也不能介入或者是無餘利益第二個部分是如果有一些監看或應對的機制判斷標準跟啟動的時機\n749517\t773940\t是什麼那有沒有誰是可以來判定的然後第三個部分是那對於已經明顯違反選罷法104條的情況除了您剛才說這應該有檢調來處理那中選會是不是會主動通報檢調來啟動偵查而不是等外界來檢舉那事後會被動回應那這個部分是不是可以請教一下主委的意見\n775460\t789966\t謝謝委員 我們現在正在進行公投的意見說明會另外在地方有一些罷免案件的電視說明會也在進行當中關於這些說明會都有我們辦法的一個規制\n791827\t820166\t那現場都會有主持人也會有監察人如果有違反我們相關規定的部分他們會做現場立即的處理最嚴重最嚴重就是麥克風關掉麥克風關掉等於是他麥克風關掉之後那個部分完全都不屬於正式的言論的內容但是如果他觸及了麥克風關掉之前他觸及的這個部分除了現場直接去做處理以外那在這個\n822047\t838595\t您說的這個司法的這個層面你們會有一些主動的做法如果有違法的情況的話在事後我們會根據事證來做必要的處置比如說是不是有違反這個刑事的法令那這個有職務告發的問題不過到現在為止並不會並沒有發生過這樣子嚴重的狀況\n845858\t869826\t可能就您的觀點就目前來講似乎不是那麼的嚴重其實還蠻順利的只是社會各界有的時候會有一些疑問所以我指出來的是說那怎麼樣就像您說消音是很及時的一個處理但是消音前已經有這樣子的疑慮的時候那你們事後做一個處理那我們最主要的一個意旨就是說那我們希望這樣能夠影響不實的言論影響選舉結果的這個衝擊能夠降到最低\n875388\t896946\t那希望中選會這邊也能夠更積極的來做處理至少一個社會的風氣讓大家基本上在公開場合要講的話可能要有一些思慮因為所有的代表人他可能都代表某一些能夠教育社會的一些言論所以我想這個部分可以再更積極一點的來處理我們都有現場突發狀況的演練但是到目前為止都沒有派上用場\n903601\t919513\t好的那我想今天最主要的一個重點就是說我們希望大家可以來表述不同的想法跟意見但是呢可能有人會故意或有一些人是沒有意識到他的內容其實會導引整個方向太大那這樣子衝擊太大的話可能在尺度上還有分寸上我們就很難拿捏這個東西對整個實質選舉結果的這個影響那我們也希望中選會\n933724\t956351\t跟公務人員管理的相關單位我們可以更積極更深入或者是更擴大一些範圍來做一些討論每經過一次的案例我們就可以來做一個整理的檢討讓這樣一個社會氛圍或者是選舉的結果能夠更契合一個社會公平正義的一個原則好 謝謝好 謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝昭偉我先請中選會主委跟全序部的部長李主委跟施部長\n謝謝昭緯感謝昭緯今天設定這樣一個題目這樣子相關的議題我們先前也有一些討論今天當然是有幾個重點我就直接來進入這個重點我今天\n整體大概聚焦三個方向第一個是在所謂的政務人員在政策宣講的時候是不是能夠遵守行政中立尤其是這個宣講的內容涉及到不太不詳實的數據還有不太正確的一個內容導致一些恐慌跟\n有的時候是意圖有的時候是可能沒有注意影響了一些選罷的這個結果那這個部分該如何究責那第二個部分是那中選會在選罷的這個電視說明會上如果碰到明顯違反選罷法的言論或者是有一點恐嚇的一個導向\n是不是有一些及時處理跟通報的機制第三個部分是有關於公務資源濫用的問題是不是廉政署這邊有一個盤點跟防灘指引的處理這個部分最主要都是依據行政資源跟公權力依法公正的使用在這個界限內不要成為一個政治鬥爭或特權濫用的工具\n所以本席在這邊請教一下就是政務人員在選罷活動當中刻意或者是無意的造謠的救責在行政中立還有重大的政治動員當中有的時候好像會被刻意的被忽略\n那本席舉一個例子在今年的3月29號那麼內政部長在民進黨應該是一個叫做政策宣導的人民是投家這樣一個宣講當中那公開的呼籲要罷免在野黨的這個立委然後反覆的在講這個有關於租金補貼這跟我們預算有關租金補貼的預算因為被砍了所以10月11月就可能用完但是我們知道這整個預算其實是比較複雜那這樣講有點簡化到\n似乎跟事情的本質差異太大所以 但事實上應該這個中央的租金補貼是一個延續性的計畫那總預算就算還沒有處理完那也能夠依據先前的這個核定的額度來動之\n那這個部分其實跟實際上的一個影響似乎有點很大的落差在這個政務官這樣講起來所以他其實並不是這麼直接的一個影響但是呢這種內容就有可能導致某一些結果產生那麼這樣一個可以透過客觀查證的一個數字落差那麼在政治宣講當中政策宣講當中呢有點被\n包裝成為一種恐慌敘事的一個反覆敘說那結果又成為這個我們講直接講罷免好了的一個訴求的這個中心那這樣子的言論其實有大家聽起來是有點喪失了這個行政中立那也不太平衡所以我們就講到這個公職人員選舉罷免法104條所規範的散佈不實之事那足以影響\n選罷的這個結果的範圍因此本席這邊來請教第一個是針對中選會對於政務人員在這個政治場合當中涉及具體的政策資訊的不實還有數據上的落差中選會認為這個還是屬於政策說明的範圍嗎然後第二個部分是這一類的爭議是不是有主動收\n證跟通報檢調的一個機制還是只能等著被動的等待有人檢舉那第三個部分是是不是認同政務官雖然其實剛才這個主委這邊有講到過就是您對政務官在公務人員行政中立法的適用的內容上\n我想聽聽您這個部分的看法剛才我們召委在詢答的時候其實也有提到先前參考了考試院的一些版本針對政務官在公務人員行政中立的這個部分是不是要再進一步的做一些討論這個我想聽聽中選會的意見\n那我是不是先到這邊那待會再問一下全序部所以主委是不是可以我剛才舉的利是相對比較實質的但是我們講的是一個比較客觀中立還有整體性的一個概念那主委您這邊針對我剛才講的例子還有這樣一個概念上的看法\n好 謝謝委員的指教那有關於政務官其實包括所有的公務人員他們應該要維持行政中立尤其是在選舉罷免期間的行政中立是大家都非常的關切\n對 那我這邊其實對於這個它產生的這樣一個情形在選舉過程當中怎麼去處理如何規範這個擅見在各個法律不只是在公職人員選舉罷免法上面那權責機關也是各有不同所以大家共同來維護行政中立這樣一個核心的價值\n就選罷法的部分來講大概直接牽涉到的有兩個法條另外一個剛剛委員所提到的104條兩個法條裡面第一個就是選罷法的第50條這是規範中央跟地方的機關在選罷期間裡面不得從事宣傳等等這個如果是違反的話\n有刑事責任的規定包括機關的首長他的代理人等等這個在50條有明文的規定權責機關因為牽涉到刑事的責任就是由司法機關他們來做處理\n我這邊跟您請教一下所以如果是在結果還沒有出來之前就有這樣一個情形那你們是會主動收政然後來通報檢調還是要等著有人來提出被動的一個等待檢舉呢通常啦 因為在選舉期間我們的選務本身就非常的忙碌那包括我等一下要講的就是選罷法第45條我們還有選務人員行政中立的這個規定\n我今天這個部分是比較針對政務官在應該是要做政策宣導結果就變成一種意識形態跟影響結果的內容我要跟委員報告的這個就是牽涉兩個部分一個是政治責任的部分這個我們管不到至於是刑事責任有沒有牽涉到這個是屬於司法機關他們的權限\n在這個整個選舉的過程裡面可能我們比較沒有餘力那可以來關照這一部分但是該我們管的我們要管那就是45條選務人員必須要中立什麼行為不能做不能做這45條都有明確的規定\n所以應該是你們這邊比較能夠處理的是選務人員的這個部分我們主動應該要負起責任就像您剛才講的這個無餘力但是我這邊也是做個提醒因為我想近期的這樣一個氛圍其實大家常常聽到可能比較\n越界的一些言論然後會引起社會的一些疑問跟恐慌至於104條的部分也是一樣是屬於司法機關的權責好的 好 謝謝全區部可以請教一下嗎\n應該公務人員的行政中立是由你們這邊來處理的但是目前政務人員沒有被完全歸納進去所以如果未來政務官在政治動員的場合裡面持續有這種錯誤的資訊或者是差異太大的數據那導致\n大部分的人會覺得有點混淆事實的政治操作那權序部會不會研議一些明確的法制的這個草案將政務官可以納入裁罰或移送究責的監督範圍呢您的看法\n我跟委員報告我想任何一個政務官不管是中央或者地方包括鄉鎮市公所類似民選人員在選舉過程的一些言論那本來就不是行政中立法裡面的規範的一個室友那也許就像剛剛主委講的如果如果違反一些可能影響選舉一些活動那自然就有一定的程序應該要去處理我想\n如果說一個政務人員或者是民選首長不管是他在選舉活動過程裡面有一些也許大家不是有人不認同的一個意見或者認為他真的數據有不正確我想那應該是一個透過政治科者的過程來處理我認為會比較好啦\n好的 那聽起來好像你們都還蠻無力的齁 但是我想這樣一個倒不是無力 我想這基本上兩套 兩套人的一個運作模式不一樣那剛剛 昭偉也提到說如果 我也建議大家如果真的是要 就政務人員這個部分要去立法的話可能我會建議就是說 算是一個不一樣的領域應該要 大家要好好再去想想 怎麼樣立法方式可能最務實啦\n好像先前考試院也有這樣一個草案的提出嘛那中間一直都沒有在動作是不是有一些考量或者是你們考慮上有一些什麼想法 這些考量其實是包括說到底政務人員的主管機關應不應該是考試院因為根據憲法考試院主管公務人員那看起來那所以你們在這個過程當中那是不是應該是考試院那你們還有哪一些選項的可能呢\n考試院並沒有所有的政務人員都是在行政機關裡面擔任首長\n並不是在考試院所屬的一個體系所以這也是為什麼當初憲法會考試院主管公務人員主要就是說因為公務人員方式比較跟政務人員不太一樣他不是高度政治性交給考試院來主管其實政務人員真的是高度政治性的一環你們在過程當中除了說可能不太適合由你們來主管的話那你們有什麼樣子的選項的討論呢\n這個跟我們未來如果還要再提相關的這個草案那有很大的關係所以我也很好奇說你們這麼長久的一段時間那討論起來是不是有其他的選項如果真的要立法立法政策過程裡面大家應該坐下來想想放在哪個地方來主管會比較適合啦那這麼長一段時間你們沒有討論到其他可能的主管機關的一個選項就對了我想\n沒有特別針對這個問題好好再往下談好的 好 謝謝但是現在因為整個氛圍還有一些正在進行的事情本席在這邊可能再請教中選會三個問題就是當公辦電視說明會是不是有一些及時可以辨識或者是處置明顯不實言論的一個機制\n還是這個平台完全開放給任何的發言內容如果已經涉及違法的情形非常大的話你們也不能介入或者是無餘利益第二個部分是如果有一些監看或應對的機制判斷標準跟啟動的時機\n是什麼那有沒有誰是可以來判定的然後第三個部分是那對於已經明顯違反選罷法104條的情況除了您剛才說這應該有檢調來處理那中選會是不是會主動通報檢調來啟動偵查而不是等外界來檢舉那事後會被動回應那這個部分是不是可以請教一下主委的意見\n謝謝委員 我們現在正在進行公投的意見說明會另外在地方有一些罷免案件的電視說明會也在進行當中關於這些說明會都有我們辦法的一個規制\n那現場都會有主持人也會有監察人如果有違反我們相關規定的部分他們會做現場立即的處理最嚴重最嚴重就是麥克風關掉麥克風關掉等於是他麥克風關掉之後那個部分完全都不屬於正式的言論的內容但是如果他觸及了麥克風關掉之前他觸及的這個部分除了現場直接去做處理以外那在這個\n您說的這個司法的這個層面你們會有一些主動的做法如果有違法的情況的話在事後我們會根據事證來做必要的處置比如說是不是有違反這個刑事的法令那這個有職務告發的問題不過到現在為止並不會並沒有發生過這樣子嚴重的狀況\n可能就您的觀點就目前來講似乎不是那麼的嚴重其實還蠻順利的只是社會各界有的時候會有一些疑問所以我指出來的是說那怎麼樣就像您說消音是很及時的一個處理但是消音前已經有這樣子的疑慮的時候那你們事後做一個處理那我們最主要的一個意旨就是說那我們希望這樣能夠影響不實的言論影響選舉結果的這個衝擊能夠降到最低\n那希望中選會這邊也能夠更積極的來做處理至少一個社會的風氣讓大家基本上在公開場合要講的話可能要有一些思慮因為所有的代表人他可能都代表某一些能夠教育社會的一些言論所以我想這個部分可以再更積極一點的來處理我們都有現場突發狀況的演練但是到目前為止都沒有派上用場\n好的那我想今天最主要的一個重點就是說我們希望大家可以來表述不同的想法跟意見但是呢可能有人會故意或有一些人是沒有意識到他的內容其實會導引整個方向太大那這樣子衝擊太大的話可能在尺度上還有分寸上我們就很難拿捏這個東西對整個實質選舉結果的這個影響那我們也希望中選會\n跟公務人員管理的相關單位我們可以更積極更深入或者是更擴大一些範圍來做一些討論每經過一次的案例我們就可以來做一個整理的檢討讓這樣一個社會氛圍或者是選舉的結果能夠更契合一個社會公平正義的一個原則好 謝謝好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.885 --> 00:20.897\n好謝謝昭偉我先請中選會主委跟全序部的部長李主委跟施部長\n\n00:29.467 --> 00:41.455\n謝謝昭緯感謝昭緯今天設定這樣一個題目這樣子相關的議題我們先前也有一些討論今天當然是有幾個重點我就直接來進入這個重點我今天\n\n00:46.098 --> 01:07.726\n整體大概聚焦三個方向第一個是在所謂的政務人員在政策宣講的時候是不是能夠遵守行政中立尤其是這個宣講的內容涉及到不太不詳實的數據還有不太正確的一個內容導致一些恐慌跟\n\n01:09.767 --> 01:20.598\n有的時候是意圖有的時候是可能沒有注意影響了一些選罷的這個結果那這個部分該如何究責那第二個部分是那中選會在選罷的這個電視說明會上如果碰到明顯違反選罷法的言論或者是有一點恐嚇的一個導向\n\n01:29.807 --> 01:54.084\n是不是有一些及時處理跟通報的機制第三個部分是有關於公務資源濫用的問題是不是廉政署這邊有一個盤點跟防灘指引的處理這個部分最主要都是依據行政資源跟公權力依法公正的使用在這個界限內不要成為一個政治鬥爭或特權濫用的工具\n\n01:54.824 --> 02:12.482\n所以本席在這邊請教一下就是政務人員在選罷活動當中刻意或者是無意的造謠的救責在行政中立還有重大的政治動員當中有的時候好像會被刻意的被忽略\n\n02:13.263 --> 02:39.811\n那本席舉一個例子在今年的3月29號那麼內政部長在民進黨應該是一個叫做政策宣導的人民是投家這樣一個宣講當中那公開的呼籲要罷免在野黨的這個立委然後反覆的在講這個有關於租金補貼這跟我們預算有關租金補貼的預算因為被砍了所以10月11月就可能用完但是我們知道這整個預算其實是比較複雜那這樣講有點簡化到\n\n02:42.532 --> 02:57.899\n似乎跟事情的本質差異太大所以但事實上應該這個中央的租金補貼是一個延續性的計畫那總預算就算還沒有處理完那也能夠依據先前的這個核定的額度來動之\n\n02:59.199 --> 03:25.877\n那這個部分其實跟實際上的一個影響似乎有點很大的落差在這個政務官這樣講起來所以他其實並不是這麼直接的一個影響但是呢這種內容就有可能導致某一些結果產生那麼這樣一個可以透過客觀查證的一個數字落差那麼在政治宣講當中政策宣講當中呢有點被\n\n03:26.437 --> 03:53.795\n包裝成為一種恐慌敘事的一個反覆敘說那結果又成為這個我們講直接講罷免好了的一個訴求的這個中心那這樣子的言論其實有大家聽起來是有點喪失了這個行政中立那也不太平衡所以我們就講到這個公職人員選舉罷免法104條所規範的散佈不實之事那足以影響\n\n03:55.517 --> 04:20.675\n選罷的這個結果的範圍因此本席這邊來請教第一個是針對中選會對於政務人員在這個政治場合當中涉及具體的政策資訊的不實還有數據上的落差中選會認為這個還是屬於政策說明的範圍嗎然後第二個部分是這一類的爭議是不是有主動收\n\n04:22.076 --> 04:46.468\n證跟通報檢調的一個機制還是只能等著被動的等待有人檢舉那第三個部分是是不是認同政務官雖然其實剛才這個主委這邊有講到過就是您對政務官在公務人員行政中立法的適用的內容上\n\n04:47.268 --> 05:03.881\n我想聽聽您這個部分的看法剛才我們召委在詢答的時候其實也有提到先前參考了考試院的一些版本針對政務官在公務人員行政中立的這個部分是不是要再進一步的做一些討論這個我想聽聽中選會的意見\n\n05:08.064 --> 05:27.967\n那我是不是先到這邊那待會再問一下全序部所以主委是不是可以我剛才舉的利是相對比較實質的但是我們講的是一個比較客觀中立還有整體性的一個概念那主委您這邊針對我剛才講的例子還有這樣一個概念上的看法\n\n05:29.008 --> 05:43.598\n好謝謝委員的指教那有關於政務官其實包括所有的公務人員他們應該要維持行政中立尤其是在選舉罷免期間的行政中立是大家都非常的關切\n\n05:44.498 --> 06:09.588\n對那我這邊其實對於這個它產生的這樣一個情形在選舉過程當中怎麼去處理如何規範這個擅見在各個法律不只是在公職人員選舉罷免法上面那權責機關也是各有不同所以大家共同來維護行政中立這樣一個核心的價值\n\n06:11.048 --> 06:36.013\n就選罷法的部分來講大概直接牽涉到的有兩個法條另外一個剛剛委員所提到的104條兩個法條裡面第一個就是選罷法的第50條這是規範中央跟地方的機關在選罷期間裡面不得從事宣傳等等這個如果是違反的話\n\n06:37.613 --> 06:53.590\n有刑事責任的規定包括機關的首長他的代理人等等這個在50條有明文的規定權責機關因為牽涉到刑事的責任就是由司法機關他們來做處理\n\n06:56.172 --> 07:24.843\n我這邊跟您請教一下所以如果是在結果還沒有出來之前就有這樣一個情形那你們是會主動收政然後來通報檢調還是要等著有人來提出被動的一個等待檢舉呢通常啦因為在選舉期間我們的選務本身就非常的忙碌那包括我等一下要講的就是選罷法第45條我們還有選務人員行政中立的這個規定\n\n07:25.863 --> 07:48.465\n我今天這個部分是比較針對政務官在應該是要做政策宣導結果就變成一種意識形態跟影響結果的內容我要跟委員報告的這個就是牽涉兩個部分一個是政治責任的部分這個我們管不到至於是刑事責任有沒有牽涉到這個是屬於司法機關他們的權限\n\n07:50.427 --> 08:04.977\n在這個整個選舉的過程裡面可能我們比較沒有餘力那可以來關照這一部分但是該我們管的我們要管那就是45條選務人員必須要中立什麼行為不能做不能做這45條都有明確的規定\n\n08:06.778 --> 08:22.680\n所以應該是你們這邊比較能夠處理的是選務人員的這個部分我們主動應該要負起責任就像您剛才講的這個無餘力但是我這邊也是做個提醒因為我想近期的這樣一個氛圍其實大家常常聽到可能比較\n\n08:24.122 --> 08:36.979\n越界的一些言論然後會引起社會的一些疑問跟恐慌至於104條的部分也是一樣是屬於司法機關的權責好的好謝謝全區部可以請教一下嗎\n\n08:38.781 --> 08:52.254\n應該公務人員的行政中立是由你們這邊來處理的但是目前政務人員沒有被完全歸納進去所以如果未來政務官在政治動員的場合裡面持續有這種錯誤的資訊或者是差異太大的數據那導致\n\n08:57.199 --> 09:12.132\n大部分的人會覺得有點混淆事實的政治操作那權序部會不會研議一些明確的法制的這個草案將政務官可以納入裁罰或移送究責的監督範圍呢您的看法\n\n09:12.852 --> 09:35.535\n我跟委員報告我想任何一個政務官不管是中央或者地方包括鄉鎮市公所類似民選人員在選舉過程的一些言論那本來就不是行政中立法裡面的規範的一個室友那也許就像剛剛主委講的如果如果違反一些可能影響選舉一些活動那自然就有一定的程序應該要去處理我想\n\n09:36.716 --> 09:54.956\n如果說一個政務人員或者是民選首長不管是他在選舉活動過程裡面有一些也許大家不是有人不認同的一個意見或者認為他真的數據有不正確我想那應該是一個透過政治科者的過程來處理我認為會比較好啦\n\n09:56.001 --> 10:17.415\n好的那聽起來好像你們都還蠻無力的齁但是我想這樣一個倒不是無力我想這基本上兩套兩套人的一個運作模式不一樣那剛剛昭偉也提到說如果我也建議大家如果真的是要就政務人員這個部分要去立法的話可能我會建議就是說算是一個不一樣的領域應該要大家要好好再去想想怎麼樣立法方式可能最務實啦\n\n10:18.055 --> 10:44.555\n好像先前考試院也有這樣一個草案的提出嘛那中間一直都沒有在動作是不是有一些考量或者是你們考慮上有一些什麼想法這些考量其實是包括說到底政務人員的主管機關應不應該是考試院因為根據憲法考試院主管公務人員那看起來那所以你們在這個過程當中那是不是應該是考試院那你們還有哪一些選項的可能呢\n\n10:47.740 --> 10:53.244\n考試院並沒有所有的政務人員都是在行政機關裡面擔任首長\n\n10:54.984 --> 11:17.295\n並不是在考試院所屬的一個體系所以這也是為什麼當初憲法會考試院主管公務人員主要就是說因為公務人員方式比較跟政務人員不太一樣他不是高度政治性交給考試院來主管其實政務人員真的是高度政治性的一環你們在過程當中除了說可能不太適合由你們來主管的話那你們有什麼樣子的選項的討論呢\n\n11:20.357 --> 11:44.949\n這個跟我們未來如果還要再提相關的這個草案那有很大的關係所以我也很好奇說你們這麼長久的一段時間那討論起來是不是有其他的選項如果真的要立法立法政策過程裡面大家應該坐下來想想放在哪個地方來主管會比較適合啦那這麼長一段時間你們沒有討論到其他可能的主管機關的一個選項就對了我想\n\n11:47.762 --> 12:09.250\n沒有特別針對這個問題好好再往下談好的好謝謝但是現在因為整個氛圍還有一些正在進行的事情本席在這邊可能再請教中選會三個問題就是當公辦電視說明會是不是有一些及時可以辨識或者是處置明顯不實言論的一個機制\n\n12:11.191 --> 12:27.196\n還是這個平台完全開放給任何的發言內容如果已經涉及違法的情形非常大的話你們也不能介入或者是無餘利益第二個部分是如果有一些監看或應對的機制判斷標準跟啟動的時機\n\n12:29.517 --> 12:53.940\n是什麼那有沒有誰是可以來判定的然後第三個部分是那對於已經明顯違反選罷法104條的情況除了您剛才說這應該有檢調來處理那中選會是不是會主動通報檢調來啟動偵查而不是等外界來檢舉那事後會被動回應那這個部分是不是可以請教一下主委的意見\n\n12:55.460 --> 13:09.966\n謝謝委員我們現在正在進行公投的意見說明會另外在地方有一些罷免案件的電視說明會也在進行當中關於這些說明會都有我們辦法的一個規制\n\n13:11.827 --> 13:40.166\n那現場都會有主持人也會有監察人如果有違反我們相關規定的部分他們會做現場立即的處理最嚴重最嚴重就是麥克風關掉麥克風關掉等於是他麥克風關掉之後那個部分完全都不屬於正式的言論的內容但是如果他觸及了麥克風關掉之前他觸及的這個部分除了現場直接去做處理以外那在這個\n\n13:42.047 --> 13:58.595\n您說的這個司法的這個層面你們會有一些主動的做法如果有違法的情況的話在事後我們會根據事證來做必要的處置比如說是不是有違反這個刑事的法令那這個有職務告發的問題不過到現在為止並不會並沒有發生過這樣子嚴重的狀況\n\n14:05.858 --> 14:29.826\n可能就您的觀點就目前來講似乎不是那麼的嚴重其實還蠻順利的只是社會各界有的時候會有一些疑問所以我指出來的是說那怎麼樣就像您說消音是很及時的一個處理但是消音前已經有這樣子的疑慮的時候那你們事後做一個處理那我們最主要的一個意旨就是說那我們希望這樣能夠影響不實的言論影響選舉結果的這個衝擊能夠降到最低\n\n14:35.388 --> 14:56.946\n那希望中選會這邊也能夠更積極的來做處理至少一個社會的風氣讓大家基本上在公開場合要講的話可能要有一些思慮因為所有的代表人他可能都代表某一些能夠教育社會的一些言論所以我想這個部分可以再更積極一點的來處理我們都有現場突發狀況的演練但是到目前為止都沒有派上用場\n\n15:03.601 --> 15:19.513\n好的那我想今天最主要的一個重點就是說我們希望大家可以來表述不同的想法跟意見但是呢可能有人會故意或有一些人是沒有意識到他的內容其實會導引整個方向太大那這樣子衝擊太大的話可能在尺度上還有分寸上我們就很難拿捏這個東西對整個實質選舉結果的這個影響那我們也希望中選會\n\n15:33.724 --> 15:56.351\n跟公務人員管理的相關單位我們可以更積極更深入或者是更擴大一些範圍來做一些討論每經過一次的案例我們就可以來做一個整理的檢討讓這樣一個社會氛圍或者是選舉的結果能夠更契合一個社會公平正義的一個原則好謝謝好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.885,"end":20.897,"text":"好 謝謝昭偉我先請中選會主委跟全序部的部長李主委跟施部長"},{"start":29.467,"end":41.455,"text":"謝謝昭緯感謝昭緯今天設定這樣一個題目這樣子相關的議題我們先前也有一些討論今天當然是有幾個重點我就直接來進入這個重點我今天"},{"start":46.098,"end":67.726,"text":"整體大概聚焦三個方向第一個是在所謂的政務人員在政策宣講的時候是不是能夠遵守行政中立尤其是這個宣講的內容涉及到不太不詳實的數據還有不太正確的一個內容導致一些恐慌跟"},{"start":69.767,"end":80.598,"text":"有的時候是意圖有的時候是可能沒有注意影響了一些選罷的這個結果那這個部分該如何究責那第二個部分是那中選會在選罷的這個電視說明會上如果碰到明顯違反選罷法的言論或者是有一點恐嚇的一個導向"},{"start":89.807,"end":114.084,"text":"是不是有一些及時處理跟通報的機制第三個部分是有關於公務資源濫用的問題是不是廉政署這邊有一個盤點跟防灘指引的處理這個部分最主要都是依據行政資源跟公權力依法公正的使用在這個界限內不要成為一個政治鬥爭或特權濫用的工具"},{"start":114.824,"end":132.482,"text":"所以本席在這邊請教一下就是政務人員在選罷活動當中刻意或者是無意的造謠的救責在行政中立還有重大的政治動員當中有的時候好像會被刻意的被忽略"},{"start":133.263,"end":159.811,"text":"那本席舉一個例子在今年的3月29號那麼內政部長在民進黨應該是一個叫做政策宣導的人民是投家這樣一個宣講當中那公開的呼籲要罷免在野黨的這個立委然後反覆的在講這個有關於租金補貼這跟我們預算有關租金補貼的預算因為被砍了所以10月11月就可能用完但是我們知道這整個預算其實是比較複雜那這樣講有點簡化到"},{"start":162.532,"end":177.899,"text":"似乎跟事情的本質差異太大所以 但事實上應該這個中央的租金補貼是一個延續性的計畫那總預算就算還沒有處理完那也能夠依據先前的這個核定的額度來動之"},{"start":179.199,"end":205.877,"text":"那這個部分其實跟實際上的一個影響似乎有點很大的落差在這個政務官這樣講起來所以他其實並不是這麼直接的一個影響但是呢這種內容就有可能導致某一些結果產生那麼這樣一個可以透過客觀查證的一個數字落差那麼在政治宣講當中政策宣講當中呢有點被"},{"start":206.437,"end":233.795,"text":"包裝成為一種恐慌敘事的一個反覆敘說那結果又成為這個我們講直接講罷免好了的一個訴求的這個中心那這樣子的言論其實有大家聽起來是有點喪失了這個行政中立那也不太平衡所以我們就講到這個公職人員選舉罷免法104條所規範的散佈不實之事那足以影響"},{"start":235.517,"end":260.675,"text":"選罷的這個結果的範圍因此本席這邊來請教第一個是針對中選會對於政務人員在這個政治場合當中涉及具體的政策資訊的不實還有數據上的落差中選會認為這個還是屬於政策說明的範圍嗎然後第二個部分是這一類的爭議是不是有主動收"},{"start":262.076,"end":286.468,"text":"證跟通報檢調的一個機制還是只能等著被動的等待有人檢舉那第三個部分是是不是認同政務官雖然其實剛才這個主委這邊有講到過就是您對政務官在公務人員行政中立法的適用的內容上"},{"start":287.268,"end":303.881,"text":"我想聽聽您這個部分的看法剛才我們召委在詢答的時候其實也有提到先前參考了考試院的一些版本針對政務官在公務人員行政中立的這個部分是不是要再進一步的做一些討論這個我想聽聽中選會的意見"},{"start":308.064,"end":327.967,"text":"那我是不是先到這邊那待會再問一下全序部所以主委是不是可以我剛才舉的利是相對比較實質的但是我們講的是一個比較客觀中立還有整體性的一個概念那主委您這邊針對我剛才講的例子還有這樣一個概念上的看法"},{"start":329.008,"end":343.598,"text":"好 謝謝委員的指教那有關於政務官其實包括所有的公務人員他們應該要維持行政中立尤其是在選舉罷免期間的行政中立是大家都非常的關切"},{"start":344.498,"end":369.588,"text":"對 那我這邊其實對於這個它產生的這樣一個情形在選舉過程當中怎麼去處理如何規範這個擅見在各個法律不只是在公職人員選舉罷免法上面那權責機關也是各有不同所以大家共同來維護行政中立這樣一個核心的價值"},{"start":371.048,"end":396.013,"text":"就選罷法的部分來講大概直接牽涉到的有兩個法條另外一個剛剛委員所提到的104條兩個法條裡面第一個就是選罷法的第50條這是規範中央跟地方的機關在選罷期間裡面不得從事宣傳等等這個如果是違反的話"},{"start":397.613,"end":413.59,"text":"有刑事責任的規定包括機關的首長他的代理人等等這個在50條有明文的規定權責機關因為牽涉到刑事的責任就是由司法機關他們來做處理"},{"start":416.172,"end":444.843,"text":"我這邊跟您請教一下所以如果是在結果還沒有出來之前就有這樣一個情形那你們是會主動收政然後來通報檢調還是要等著有人來提出被動的一個等待檢舉呢通常啦 因為在選舉期間我們的選務本身就非常的忙碌那包括我等一下要講的就是選罷法第45條我們還有選務人員行政中立的這個規定"},{"start":445.863,"end":468.465,"text":"我今天這個部分是比較針對政務官在應該是要做政策宣導結果就變成一種意識形態跟影響結果的內容我要跟委員報告的這個就是牽涉兩個部分一個是政治責任的部分這個我們管不到至於是刑事責任有沒有牽涉到這個是屬於司法機關他們的權限"},{"start":470.427,"end":484.977,"text":"在這個整個選舉的過程裡面可能我們比較沒有餘力那可以來關照這一部分但是該我們管的我們要管那就是45條選務人員必須要中立什麼行為不能做不能做這45條都有明確的規定"},{"start":486.778,"end":502.68,"text":"所以應該是你們這邊比較能夠處理的是選務人員的這個部分我們主動應該要負起責任就像您剛才講的這個無餘力但是我這邊也是做個提醒因為我想近期的這樣一個氛圍其實大家常常聽到可能比較"},{"start":504.122,"end":516.979,"text":"越界的一些言論然後會引起社會的一些疑問跟恐慌至於104條的部分也是一樣是屬於司法機關的權責好的 好 謝謝全區部可以請教一下嗎"},{"start":518.781,"end":532.254,"text":"應該公務人員的行政中立是由你們這邊來處理的但是目前政務人員沒有被完全歸納進去所以如果未來政務官在政治動員的場合裡面持續有這種錯誤的資訊或者是差異太大的數據那導致"},{"start":537.199,"end":552.132,"text":"大部分的人會覺得有點混淆事實的政治操作那權序部會不會研議一些明確的法制的這個草案將政務官可以納入裁罰或移送究責的監督範圍呢您的看法"},{"start":552.852,"end":575.535,"text":"我跟委員報告我想任何一個政務官不管是中央或者地方包括鄉鎮市公所類似民選人員在選舉過程的一些言論那本來就不是行政中立法裡面的規範的一個室友那也許就像剛剛主委講的如果如果違反一些可能影響選舉一些活動那自然就有一定的程序應該要去處理我想"},{"start":576.716,"end":594.956,"text":"如果說一個政務人員或者是民選首長不管是他在選舉活動過程裡面有一些也許大家不是有人不認同的一個意見或者認為他真的數據有不正確我想那應該是一個透過政治科者的過程來處理我認為會比較好啦"},{"start":596.001,"end":617.415,"text":"好的 那聽起來好像你們都還蠻無力的齁 但是我想這樣一個倒不是無力 我想這基本上兩套 兩套人的一個運作模式不一樣那剛剛 昭偉也提到說如果 我也建議大家如果真的是要 就政務人員這個部分要去立法的話可能我會建議就是說 算是一個不一樣的領域應該要 大家要好好再去想想 怎麼樣立法方式可能最務實啦"},{"start":618.055,"end":644.555,"text":"好像先前考試院也有這樣一個草案的提出嘛那中間一直都沒有在動作是不是有一些考量或者是你們考慮上有一些什麼想法 這些考量其實是包括說到底政務人員的主管機關應不應該是考試院因為根據憲法考試院主管公務人員那看起來那所以你們在這個過程當中那是不是應該是考試院那你們還有哪一些選項的可能呢"},{"start":647.74,"end":653.244,"text":"考試院並沒有所有的政務人員都是在行政機關裡面擔任首長"},{"start":654.984,"end":677.295,"text":"並不是在考試院所屬的一個體系所以這也是為什麼當初憲法會考試院主管公務人員主要就是說因為公務人員方式比較跟政務人員不太一樣他不是高度政治性交給考試院來主管其實政務人員真的是高度政治性的一環你們在過程當中除了說可能不太適合由你們來主管的話那你們有什麼樣子的選項的討論呢"},{"start":680.357,"end":704.949,"text":"這個跟我們未來如果還要再提相關的這個草案那有很大的關係所以我也很好奇說你們這麼長久的一段時間那討論起來是不是有其他的選項如果真的要立法立法政策過程裡面大家應該坐下來想想放在哪個地方來主管會比較適合啦那這麼長一段時間你們沒有討論到其他可能的主管機關的一個選項就對了我想"},{"start":707.762,"end":729.25,"text":"沒有特別針對這個問題好好再往下談好的 好 謝謝但是現在因為整個氛圍還有一些正在進行的事情本席在這邊可能再請教中選會三個問題就是當公辦電視說明會是不是有一些及時可以辨識或者是處置明顯不實言論的一個機制"},{"start":731.191,"end":747.196,"text":"還是這個平台完全開放給任何的發言內容如果已經涉及違法的情形非常大的話你們也不能介入或者是無餘利益第二個部分是如果有一些監看或應對的機制判斷標準跟啟動的時機"},{"start":749.517,"end":773.94,"text":"是什麼那有沒有誰是可以來判定的然後第三個部分是那對於已經明顯違反選罷法104條的情況除了您剛才說這應該有檢調來處理那中選會是不是會主動通報檢調來啟動偵查而不是等外界來檢舉那事後會被動回應那這個部分是不是可以請教一下主委的意見"},{"start":775.46,"end":789.966,"text":"謝謝委員 我們現在正在進行公投的意見說明會另外在地方有一些罷免案件的電視說明會也在進行當中關於這些說明會都有我們辦法的一個規制"},{"start":791.827,"end":820.166,"text":"那現場都會有主持人也會有監察人如果有違反我們相關規定的部分他們會做現場立即的處理最嚴重最嚴重就是麥克風關掉麥克風關掉等於是他麥克風關掉之後那個部分完全都不屬於正式的言論的內容但是如果他觸及了麥克風關掉之前他觸及的這個部分除了現場直接去做處理以外那在這個"},{"start":822.047,"end":838.595,"text":"您說的這個司法的這個層面你們會有一些主動的做法如果有違法的情況的話在事後我們會根據事證來做必要的處置比如說是不是有違反這個刑事的法令那這個有職務告發的問題不過到現在為止並不會並沒有發生過這樣子嚴重的狀況"},{"start":845.858,"end":869.826,"text":"可能就您的觀點就目前來講似乎不是那麼的嚴重其實還蠻順利的只是社會各界有的時候會有一些疑問所以我指出來的是說那怎麼樣就像您說消音是很及時的一個處理但是消音前已經有這樣子的疑慮的時候那你們事後做一個處理那我們最主要的一個意旨就是說那我們希望這樣能夠影響不實的言論影響選舉結果的這個衝擊能夠降到最低"},{"start":875.388,"end":896.946,"text":"那希望中選會這邊也能夠更積極的來做處理至少一個社會的風氣讓大家基本上在公開場合要講的話可能要有一些思慮因為所有的代表人他可能都代表某一些能夠教育社會的一些言論所以我想這個部分可以再更積極一點的來處理我們都有現場突發狀況的演練但是到目前為止都沒有派上用場"},{"start":903.601,"end":919.513,"text":"好的那我想今天最主要的一個重點就是說我們希望大家可以來表述不同的想法跟意見但是呢可能有人會故意或有一些人是沒有意識到他的內容其實會導引整個方向太大那這樣子衝擊太大的話可能在尺度上還有分寸上我們就很難拿捏這個東西對整個實質選舉結果的這個影響那我們也希望中選會"},{"start":933.724,"end":956.351,"text":"跟公務人員管理的相關單位我們可以更積極更深入或者是更擴大一些範圍來做一些討論每經過一次的案例我們就可以來做一個整理的檢討讓這樣一個社會氛圍或者是選舉的結果能夠更契合一個社會公平正義的一個原則好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":498,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（10時22分）謝謝召委，我先請中選會主委跟銓敘部部長，李主委跟施部長。"],["主席：麻煩請李主委、銓敘部施部長。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝召委，感謝召委今天設定這樣一個題目，相關議題我們先前也有一些討論，今天有幾個重點，我就直接進入重點。","我今天整體大概聚焦三個方向，第一個，關於政務人員在政策宣講的時候是不是能夠遵守行政中立，尤其是宣講的內容涉及到不詳實的數據還有不太正確的內容，導致一些恐慌，有的時候是意圖、有的時候是可能沒有注意，而影響了一些選罷的結果，那這個部分該如何究責？第二個部分，中選會在選罷的電視說明會上，如果碰到明顯違反選罷法的言論或者有一點恐嚇的導向，是不是有一些即時處理跟通報的機制？第三個部分，有關公務資源濫用的問題，是不是廉政署這邊有盤點跟防貪指引的處理？這個部分最主要都是依據行政資源跟公權力依法公正使用，在這個界限內不要成為政治鬥爭或特權濫用的工具。","所以本席在這邊請教一下，關於政務人員在選罷活動當中刻意或無意造謠的究責，還有行政中立在重大政治動員當中，有的時候好像會刻意的被忽略。本席舉一個例子，在今年3月29號，內政部長在民進黨的「人民是頭家」政策宣講當中，公開呼籲要罷免在野黨的立委，然後反覆的講租金補貼，這跟我們預算有關，就是租金補貼的預算因為被砍了，所以10月、11月就可能用完。但是我們知道這整個預算其實比較複雜，這樣講有點簡化到似乎跟事情的本質差異太大，事實上，中央的租金補貼是一個延續性的計畫，總預算就算還沒有處理完，也能夠依據先前的核定額度來動支，這個政務官這樣講起來，這個部分跟實際上的影響似乎有很大的落差，所以這其實並非這麼直接的影響，但是這種內容就有可能導致某一些結果產生。這樣一個可以透過客觀查證的數字落差，在政策宣講當中有點被包裝成為一種恐慌敘事的反覆敘說，並成為罷免的訴求中心，這樣子的言論其實大家聽起來會覺得有點喪失了行政中立、也不太平衡，所以我們就講到公職人員選舉罷免法第一百零四條所規範的散播不實之事，足以影響選罷結果的範圍。","因此本席這邊請教，第一個是針對中選會，對於政務人員在政治場合當中涉及具體政策資訊不實還有數據上落差的言論，中選會認為這個還是屬於政策說明的範圍嗎？第二個部分，這一類的爭議是不是有主動蒐證跟通報檢調的機制，還是只能被動等待有人檢舉？第三個部分，其實剛才主委這邊有講到，對政務官在公務人員行政中立法的適用內容上，我想聽聽您的看法，剛才我們召委在詢答的時候其實也有提到，先前參考考試院的一些版本，針對政務官在公務人員行政中立這個部分是不是要再進一步做一些討論？我想聽聽中選會的意見，先到這邊，待會再問一下銓敘部。我剛才舉的例子是相對比較實質的，但我們講的是一個比較客觀、中立還有整體性的概念，請問主委針對我剛才講的例子還有這樣一個概念的看法？"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員的指教。有關於政務官，其實包括所有的公務人員，都應該要維持行政中立，尤其是在選舉罷免期間的行政中立，大家都非常的關切，那這個規範如何……"],["林委員倩綺：對於產生這樣一個情形，在選舉過程當中怎麼去處理？"],["李主任委員進勇：關於如何規範，散見在各個法律，不只是在公職人員選舉罷免法上面，權責機關也是各有不同，所以大家共同來維護行政中立這樣一個核心價值。就選罷法的部分來講，直接牽涉到的有兩個法條，另外一個是剛剛委員所提到的第一百零四條。在兩個法條裡面，第一個就是選罷法第五十條，這是規範中央跟地方機關在選罷期間不得從事宣傳等等，如果違反的話，有刑事責任的規定，包括機關首長、他的代理人等等，這個在第五十條有明文規定，至於權責機關，因為這牽涉到刑事的責任，就由司法機關來做處理，這是第一點……"],["林委員倩綺：我跟您請教一下，如果在結果還沒出來之前就有這樣一個情形，你們會主動蒐證、通報檢調，還是要等著有人提出、被動的等待檢舉呢？"],["李主任委員進勇：通常在選舉期間，我們的選務本身就非常忙碌，包括我等一下要講的選罷法第四十五條，我們還有選務人員行政中立的規定，這是行政罰……"],["林委員倩綺：我今天這個部分是比較針對政務官應該要做政策宣導，結果就變成一種意識型態跟影響結果的內容，你的看法？"],["李主任委員進勇：我要跟委員報告的就是這個牽涉兩個部分，一個是政治責任的部分，這個我們管不到，至於有沒有牽涉到刑事責任，這個是屬於司法機關的權限，在整個選舉的過程裡面，可能我們比較沒有餘力來關照這一部分。但是該我們管的我們要管，那就是第四十五條，選務人員必須要中立，什麼行為不能做，第四十五條都有明確的規定，這個我們主動……"],["林委員倩綺：所以你們這邊比較能夠處理的是選務人員的部分……"],["李主任委員進勇：對，我們應該主動負起責任。"],["林委員倩綺：政務官可能就像你剛才講的無餘力，但是我這邊也是做個提醒，我想近期這樣的一個氛圍，大家常常聽到可能比較越界的一些言論，會引起社會的一些疑問跟恐慌……"],["李主任委員進勇：是，至於第一百零四條的部分也是一樣，是屬於司法機關的權責。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝。我可以請教一下銓敘部嗎？公務人員的行政中立應該是由你們這邊來處理的，但是目前政務人員沒有被完全歸納進去，如果未來政務官在政治動員的場合裡面，持續有這種錯誤的資訊，或者是差異太大的數據，讓大部分的人會覺得有點混淆事實的政治操作，銓敘部會不會研議一些明確的法制草案，將政務官納入裁罰或移送究責的監督範圍呢？您的看法如何？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，我想任何一個政務官，不管是中央或者地方，包括鄉鎮市公所，類似民選人員，在選舉過程的一些言論，那本來就不是行政中立法裡面規範的事由，也許就像剛剛主委講的，如果他違反一些可能影響選舉的活動，自然應該有一定的程序要去處理。如果說一個政務人員或者是民選首長，不管是他在選舉活動過程裡面有一些也許有人不認同的意見，或者認為他的數據真的有不正確，我想應該透過政治課責的過程來處理，我認為會比較好。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，聽起來好像你們都還蠻無力的，但是我想這樣一個……"],["施部長能傑：倒不是無力，我想這基本上是兩套人的運作模式不一樣，剛剛召委也提到，如果真的要就政務人員的部分來立法的話，可能我會建議，因為算是一個不一樣的領域，大家應該要好好地再去想想怎麼樣的立法方式可能是最務實的。"],["林委員倩綺：好像先前考試院也有這樣一個草案的提出，中間一直都沒有在動作，是不是有一些考量？或是你們討論上有一些想法？"],["施部長能傑：這些考量其實是包括到底政務人員的主管機關應不應該是考試院，因為根據憲法，考試院是主管公務人員。"],["林委員倩綺：所以你們在這個過程當中，考量是不是應該是考試院，那你們還有哪一些選項的可能呢？"],["施部長能傑：我只能講，所有的政務人員都是在行政機關裡面擔任首長，並不是在考試院所屬的一個體系，所以這也是為什麼當初憲法會由考試院主管公務人員，主要是因為公務人員任用的方式跟政務人員比較不太一樣，他不是高度政治性，交給考試院來主管，其實政務人員真的是高度政治性的一環……"],["林委員倩綺：所以你們在過程當中，如果不太適合由你們來主管的話，你們還有什麼樣子選項的討論呢？這個跟我們未來如果還要再提相關的草案有很大的關係，所以我也很好奇你們在這麼長久的一段時間，討論起來是不是有其他的選項？"],["施部長能傑：我覺得這是一個立法政策，如果真的要立法，在立法政策的過程裡面，大家應該坐下來想想放在哪個地方來主管會比較適合。"],["林委員倩綺：好吧！所以這麼長一段時間，你們沒有討論到其他可能的主管機關的選項就對了？"],["施部長能傑：我想沒有特別針對這個問題好好地再往下談。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝。但是現在因為整個氛圍，還有一些正在進行的事情，本席在這邊可能要再請教中選會三個問題，就是公辦電視說明會是不是有一些可以即時辨識或者是處置明顯不實言論的機制？還是這個平臺完全開放給任何發言，如果內容已經涉及違法情形非常大的話，你們也不能介入或者是無餘力？第二個部分，如果有一些監看或應對的機制，那判斷標準跟啟動的時機是什麼？有沒有誰可以來判定？第三個部分是對於已經明顯違反選罷法第一百零四條的情況，除了您剛才說這應該由檢調來處理外，中選會是不是會主動通報檢調來啟動偵查，而不是等外界來檢舉，事後被動回應，這個部分是不是可以請教一下主委的意見？"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員，我們現在正在進行公投的意見說明會，另外在地方有一些罷免案件的電視說明會也在進行當中，關於這些說明會，都有我們辦法的規制，現場都會有主持人，也會有監察人，如果有違反我們相關規定的部分，他們會做現場立即的處理，最嚴重的就是麥克風關掉……"],["林委員倩綺：所以等於是他麥克風關掉之後，那個部分完全都不屬於正式的言論內容？但是如果在麥克風關掉之前，他觸及的這個部分，除了現場直接去做處理以外，在您說的司法層面上，你們會有一些主動的作法嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：如果有違法的情況的話，在事後，我們會根據事證來做必要的處置，譬如說是不是有違反刑事的法令，這個有職務告發的問題，不過到現在為止，並沒有發生過這樣子嚴重的狀況。"],["林委員倩綺：可能就您的觀點，就目前來講，似乎不是那麼的嚴重……"],["李主任委員進勇：其實還蠻順利的。"],["林委員倩綺：OK，只是社會各界有的時候會有一些疑問，所以我指出來的是，就像您說消音是很即時的處理，但是消音前已經有這樣子的疑慮的時候，你們事後做一個處理，但我們最主要的一個意旨是，我們希望不實言論對於選舉結果的影響、衝擊能夠降到最低，希望中選會這邊也能夠更積極的來做處理，至少導正社會的風氣，讓大家……"],["李主任委員進勇：我們也非常感謝大家的配合。"],["林委員倩綺：基本上，在公開場合講的話，可能要有一些思慮，因為所有的代表人講的話可能都代表某一些能夠教育社會的言論，所以我想這個部分可以再更積極一點的來做處理。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們都有現場突發狀況的演練，但是到目前為止，都沒有派上用場。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，我想今天最主要的一個重點是，我們希望大家可以來表述不同的想法跟意見，但是可能有人會故意，或有些人沒有意識到他的內容其實會導引整個方向太大，這樣的衝擊太大的話，可能在尺度上還有分寸上，我們就很難拿捏這個東西對整個選舉結果的實質影響，我們也希望中選會跟公務人員管理的相關單位可以更積極、更深入，或者是更擴大一些範圍，來做一些討論，每經過一次的案例，我們就可以來做一個整體的檢討，讓這樣的社會氛圍或者是選舉的結果，能夠更契合社會公平正義的原則，謝謝。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-24","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","莊瑞雄","林倩綺","陳培瑜","沈發惠","羅智強","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","陳冠廷","吳沛憶","王鴻薇"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2025-08-14"],"gazette_id":"1147302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147302_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請銓敘部部長、行政院人事行政總處人事長、中央選舉委員會主任委員、法務部廉政署署\n長、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「政務人員應否及如何遵守行政中立原\n則、行政機關於選舉罷免期間應為如何之宣導與落實」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、併案審查\n(一)考試院函請審議「公務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員邱志偉等21人擬具\n「公務人員考績法第三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「公務人員考績法第十\n二條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「公務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」\n案、( 五) 委員范雲等17 人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條、第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案」\n案；三、併案審查(一)委員傅崐萁等25人、(二)委員郭昱晴等18人分別擬具「刑事訴訟法第七十\n一條及第一百七十五條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1147302_00005"}}}