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\"民選總統的政策對那現在就是一個這其實是立法院所提出來的公投這不是總統所提出來的防禦性公投所以呢他今天他用總統的身份去講這樣子的話這沒有妨害公投嗎我想公投本來就是沒有妨害到大家就是有關於公投的這個這個公平和合理以及這個這樣的一個投票投票行使嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 110.185, \"end\": 111.026, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"選\"}, {\"word\": \"總\"}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 111.026, \"end\": 111.206, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 111.206, \"end\": 111.466, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"策\", \"start\": 111.466, \"end\": 112.326, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 112.326, \"end\": 112.626, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 112.626, \"end\": 112.787, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 112.787, \"end\": 112.967, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 112.967, \"end\": 113.107, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 113.107, \"end\": 113.547, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 113.547, \"end\": 113.667, 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134.279, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"和\", \"start\": 134.279, \"end\": 134.519, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 134.519, \"end\": 134.739, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 134.739, \"end\": 135.099, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 135.099, \"end\": 135.28, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 135.28, \"end\": 137.061, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 137.061, \"end\": 137.421, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 137.421, \"end\": 137.861, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"投\", \"start\": 137.861, \"end\": 138.061, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"票\", \"start\": 138.061, \"end\": 138.421, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"投\", \"start\": 138.421, \"end\": 138.601, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"票\", \"start\": 138.601, \"end\": 138.802, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 138.802, \"end\": 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147.485, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 147.485, \"end\": 147.785, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 147.785, \"end\": 147.945, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 147.945, \"end\": 148.045, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 148.045, \"end\": 148.145, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"概\", \"start\": 148.145, \"end\": 148.225, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 148.225, \"end\": 148.345, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 148.345, \"end\": 148.465, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 148.465, \"end\": 148.545, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 148.545, \"end\": 148.685, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 148.685, \"end\": 148.965, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 148.965, \"end\": 149.105, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 149.105, \"end\": 149.305, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"的\", 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{\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 160.407, \"end\": 160.547, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 160.547, \"end\": 160.647, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 160.647, \"end\": 160.707, \"score\": 0.664}, {\"word\": \"哪\", \"start\": 160.707, \"end\": 160.847, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 160.847, \"end\": 160.947, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 160.947, \"end\": 161.127, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 161.127, \"end\": 161.467, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 161.467, \"end\": 161.587, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 161.587, \"end\": 161.867, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 161.867, \"end\": 162.088, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 162.088, \"end\": 162.228, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 162.228, \"end\": 162.448, \"score\": 0.924}, 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00:01:03,620\n那麼我這邊我想請教您因為昨天賴清德總統他曾經有公開喊話說讓我們一起要針對核三研議的公投投下不同意票請問您認為賴總統說這句話有沒有違反行政中立有沒有\n\n4\n00:01:04,366 --> 00:01:25,589\n沒有為什麼沒有我跟委員報告行政中立法裡面有規範的是選舉跟公投那它大部分規範是選舉那公投的部分我想這個部分總統的態度總統本來就不適用行政中立法他當然沒有違反行政中立法的問題那有沒有違反行政中立\n\n5\n00:01:26,630 --> 00:01:49,395\n他是代表他作為一個國家元首對一個公投的立場的宣示所以你認為作為一個國家元首作為一個總統他的一個政策態度他可以他到底是代表誰他是代表全中華民國代表這個總統府這個機關還是說這今天是代表他個人的立場我覺得是代表他是一個民選總統出來以後他的政策的一個態度\n\n6\n00:01:50,185 --> 00:02:19,082\n民選總統的政策對那現在就是一個這其實是立法院所提出來的公投這不是總統所提出來的防禦性公投所以呢他今天他用總統的身份去講這樣子的話這沒有妨害公投嗎我想公投本來就是沒有妨害到大家就是有關於公投的這個這個公平和合理以及這個這樣的一個投票投票行使嗎\n\n7\n00:02:20,623 --> 00:02:43,068\n我認為他是代表他作為一個總統所宣示他的一個政策的態度所以我想這部分大概就是我跟部長對大家的意見的不同總統昨天是在什麼場合說這句話的他在總統府說的嗎他在中常會說的樣子中常會是哪邊的中常會是民進黨的中常會民進黨的中常會對\n\n8\n00:02:45,373 --> 00:03:11,043\n這就是我要講的如果說他今天他是作為一個民進黨的黨主席他就說這句話我沒有意見但是如果他今天作為一個總統他說這句話就顯不適當可是看起來我覺得從市部長您剛剛的回答裡面我認為說其實您對於一個國家機關一個重要的職務他利用他的職務的名氣對外發言他到底代表的是誰這樣子的一個\n\n9\n00:03:14,862 --> 00:03:36,323\n觀念我覺得您是跟我們一般的這個法界學界的這些想法是完全不同的總統他是一個國家的名氣他利用這樣子的一個職務他對外說的話他是代表全中華民國的人民您知道有現在民調有多少民眾是支持河山研議的嗎\n\n10\n00:03:38,294 --> 00:04:01,336\n我不清楚您不清楚所以代表您平常都沒有在關心時事都不曉得我們的民間的這個民間意見的這個趨勢我告訴您已經好幾個不同的民調機構都顯示大概有六成到七成的民眾是支持核酸原液的所以今天總統他講這句話他到底代表是誰的意見\n\n11\n00:04:03,070 --> 00:04:22,126\n是他個人的意見嗎還是民進黨的意見如果說他今天是代表總統的意見說實在話我認為這就是嚴重違反行政中立雖然說在我們現在的行政中立法裡面你們可以講說確實我們今天在公務員員行政中立法是不規範政務人員的但是你們自己也有講到\n\n12\n00:04:23,587 --> 00:04:48,126\n公務人員的長官也應該要遵守公務人員的行政中立法你們自己的解釋函都這麼說他不能夠指示部署做違反行政中立法的行為好所以就代表說只可以長官公務人員的長官部會首長總統院長他可以違反行政中立但他的下屬不可以違反行政中立\n\n13\n00:04:49,146 --> 00:05:06,580\n我覺得這樣子的說法對於一般的社會大眾來講是無法接受的委員我跟你報告我們行政中立的這個名詞每個人見解不一樣我尊重你的想法但是真正的行政中立根據我們行政中立講法是指參與政治性的積極性的參與政治活動所以剛剛總統說的那句話他們沒有屬於政治活動的範疇嗎\n\n14\n00:05:12,523 --> 00:05:35,138\n這是屬於他的政策的一個言論這是屬於政策還是屬於政治活動的言論我覺得這個部分的話真的是要搞清楚這也是為什麼大家現在對於所謂的行政中立的這個要把它法制化然後公務人員的行政中立法裡面其實它是對於公務人員要參與跟政治活動或是選舉公投相關的這個活動範圍的這樣的一個\n\n15\n00:05:39,481 --> 00:06:08,701\n情況其實都做了非常嚴格的規範那但是呢反而是對於政務人員從總統以降的這些部會首長都是輕輕的放過輕輕的帶過他們嚴重違反行政中立也都認為沒有違反行政中立然後我們已經很多次的希望全序部能夠趕快要去立法不管你是修法或是制定專法你總是要有個態度啊但是你們看我在今年五月份的時候我有請全序部給我一份\n\n16\n00:06:10,042 --> 00:06:32,563\n給我一份資料就請你們去研析到底現在世界各國裡面對於這個政務人員的行政中立的相關的法制的規範情形如何就你們給我的這個各國制度比較的研析報告裡面第一個我寫的我我看了基本上就是一個非常簡單也沒有什麼深入研究的報告然後第二個呢就是\n\n17\n00:06:33,929 --> 00:07:02,909\n從你們的報告裡面你們到底是希望是比照未來是應該要像加拿大一致就政務人員的職務本身就屬於政治性質所以他就可以從事政黨活動也不管他是不是上下班時間還是說應該像美國日本德國英國一樣這個基本上採取比較嚴格的標準在非政務職務的身份底下或是非執行職務的時候才可以參與政黨活動以及表達政黨立場\n\n18\n00:07:04,471 --> 00:07:05,955\n就是你們現在局局部的態度是什麼\n\n19\n00:07:07,020 --> 00:07:33,532\n我想委員當初有要求我們就一些其他國家的一個現行的規範給委員會做一個報告我們也務實的去做了這個事情也把相關的規定我想細部的那個條文當然沒有放在上面我們整理也跟委員會做過報告那我們的態度是說政務人員基本上跟公務人員他的本質就是非常不一樣如果說你要對政務人員的某些行為做規範\n\n20\n00:07:34,873 --> 00:07:45,484\n那是屬於立法跟行政權的一個立法政策的一個議題所以全區部不準備提案修法因為根據憲法全區部不應該管政務人員\n\n21\n00:07:46,677 --> 00:08:08,710\n好所以你認為說從縣級的角度來講這個政務人員的相關法制不是屬於你們權序部考試院的權責那所以政務人員的退俯條例是誰定的我想如果委員可以多了解政務人員當初立法的一個背景一開始考試院是不樂意的我先要講嘛政務人員的退修輔助條例的主管機關是哪個機關現在是考試院沒有錯\n\n22\n00:08:09,170 --> 00:08:31,624\n是那所以既然你們都已經規定了都已經承擔了政務人員的退休撫恤條例作為他的主管機關然後你們也提案那為什麼針對政務人員中立法你們又撇得一乾二淨說這不是我的責任我想你們這樣的講法大家能夠接受嗎社會大眾能夠接受我覺得這是一個問題我跟委員報告基本還是回到憲法最上位的觀點我想憲法明擺講\n\n23\n00:08:33,049 --> 00:08:46,855\n考試院主管公務人員政務人員是高度政治性不是只有中央政府有各級政府都有政務人員所以這是一個非常複雜的一個議題適不適合由考試院來做主管但是就實務上來講就現實的上面來講我們現在已經從憲法的解釋來講而且實務做法來說你們也已經承擔了去制定政務人員府去條例的一些\n\n24\n00:08:54,679 --> 00:09:20,501\n如果剛剛有人報告過說那個從立法的背景如果早期的立法背景去了解的話現在的背景並沒有改變太多好這個議題我不再跟您爭執了因為我想這個很重要就是這個全學部考試院如果怠惰不準備提案我們立法委員我們會主動的提案好那這邊那就先謝謝您時副部長那我接下來要請教任總這個請任市長\n\n25\n00:09:23,678 --> 00:09:29,132\n是任市長您好這個我直接了當的問請問2026年軍公教會調薪嗎\n\n26\n00:09:32,727 --> 00:10:01,050\n我跟委員報告一下我們這個禮拜一有找公教協會的同仁來開會那在會議上他們都有表達他的期待然後我們最近會再開公教人員審議委員會然後開完會以後我們會盡快把結論送到行政院所以你們現在初步的方向是什麼8月21號的院會之前你們就會抵定嗎目前朝這個方向努力\n\n27\n00:10:01,892 --> 00:10:27,748\n那所以是樂觀還是這個我沒辦法答覆因為這個決定前會在行政院這裡我們只是一個專業幕僚會把大家的意見中正所以這是你們專業幕僚你們應該就要提出專業的意見從現在零年的這個物價通膨各方面來看是不是軍公教目前的待遇的狀況都還是屬於中下偏低了也就是說跟其他的這個產業界裡面的這個薪資相比\n\n28\n00:10:30,089 --> 00:10:47,628\n我們是不是還是我想我們會從幾個過面剛才我也提了CPI是其中一個還有經濟成長力的問題還有GDP的問題還有民間薪資的問題還有國家財政會從這基本上從這五大過面裡面我們會中整\n\n29\n00:10:48,869 --> 00:10:58,435\n一個參考的數據反正總之啦就是人事長你現在不敢把你們這個人事總處的意見清楚的表達出來會議還沒有開我們怎麼表達不是你明天已經有一個專業的意見了沒有沒有我們還要再開一次那個委員會\n\n30\n00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:33,300\n好OK總之我就期待期待會有一個好的這個消息那麼接下來我要問的就是說我其實在今年大概三四月的時候我其實還是四五月我就已經請教過任市長你們到底對於軍公教待遇審議法制化的作業你們進行到什麼程度我還記得您那時候說你們任總已經提出了草案送行政院行政院七月底就會公布\n\n31\n00:11:35,131 --> 00:11:54,734\n結果到現在都已經八月中了我跟委員報告我們兩個影子都沒看到整個法治化的條文總共有八條然後行政院所有的程序都走了那現在等於就是在等待把這個案子排到行政院院會當行政院院會通過以後會送大院審查\n\n32\n00:11:55,114 --> 00:12:14,074\n那明明這個就是大家很關心而且這也是立法院這好幾個委員包含我在內我們都希望說能夠盡速的看到行政院的這個法案可是你們一直拖一直拖就算是你人是總處這裡算是有在合乎的期間之內提案那為什麼行政院一直拖拖拉拉\n\n33\n00:12:15,424 --> 00:12:32,914\n都沒有要排定審案行政院有它綜合的考量因為每一個禮拜開了宴會要審查的法案事實上非常多尤其最近又加入所謂的台美的關稅相關的議題所以我想它會有一套機制去排序這個排議程也不是人事長您的全責但是我這邊只是要講就是有關於軍公教\n\n34\n00:12:43,038 --> 00:12:57,590\n待遇審議的法制化這也是我們一直都很重視的對不對然後希望你們提案你們也不提那你們是不是應該要這個盡數在你們人事總之至少公告先預告你們的草案內容是什麼有預告過了後來呢後來的修正版本呢是不是可以請你們這個今天會後提供一份你們的這個送到行政院的公告草案給我\n\n35\n00:13:08,157 --> 00:13:33,659\n我這裡可以答應委員啦我們會再跟行政院拜託看看盡快排錄連我們立法委員們都不可以知道你們到底提了什麼內容嗎我們那個資料會送給委員啦這也是個秘密的資訊就是了沒有沒有這個公開的所以我這個本席要求今天會後你們在明天就可以把你們送到行政院的版本\n\n36\n00:13:34,740 --> 00:14:00,620\n條文你說只有八條嘛送一份給本席或是這個司委會的委員們做參考這的話我們現在不少的一直等待下去這是當時我們對你們的要求你們沒有做到嘛那另外針對於這個政務人員奉請法制化的問題這也是一個目前在法制上面的一個空白的一塊\n\n37\n00:14:02,813 --> 00:14:31,004\n我們現在政務人員的諷解是規定在哪裡我們有相關專法嗎就是我們現在對於總統副總統有一個專法但是政務人員現在沒有一個專法所以是規定在哪裡呢所以我們現在政務人員的諷解是怎麼給是依照什麼樣子的規定去\n\n38\n00:14:32,116 --> 00:15:00,787\n合給他是根據那個行政院有一套已經實施很久內部的一個就是有一個複雜的一個內部的一個規定然後做每年在做年度調薪的時候就用那個方式來做有一個點數所以看起來就是不管是部長或是人事長都搞不清楚現在政務人員的縫緊是規定在哪裡是依照什麼樣子的辦法或是這個法令去合給\n\n39\n00:15:02,968 --> 00:15:26,806\n這是規定在全國軍公教員工待遇知己要點的第三項裡面其中有個政務人員給予是照附表1鎖定數額之給好我要先講就是說這個也是名不正言不順你政務人員是跟軍公教人員就是不一樣啊他的退休撫恤你們都有定專法那麼為什麼政務人員的奉集法你們卻不提\n\n40\n00:15:28,604 --> 00:15:55,996\n這不應該是要把它提出來嗎中立法也說是軍公教人員跟政務人員不一樣也不能夠適用但是公務員服務法裡面卻又涵蓋了政務人員這個整個法制的體系是錯亂的我本行認為權需不跟人走在這個地方你們都失職這不應該把它法制化弄清楚嗎\n\n41\n00:16:00,069 --> 00:16:12,493\n所以政務人員的薪水到現在為止就是用一個要點在規範要調高調調調減這都是你們自己行政裁量權把立法權全部都晾在旁邊我認為這不是一個正常的做法任市長\n\n42\n00:16:21,533 --> 00:16:49,349\n有可能順便提嗎軍工匠人員奉集法制化然後呢也另外再提出政務人員奉集法制化這個我們回去再演繹一下好不好是然後也希望是部長至少在現行的制度底下考試院權需部他還是負責有關於政務人員的相關的法規啊不管您同不同意但是現在就是如此\n\n43\n00:16:50,583 --> 00:16:56,851\n所以既然有了政務人員退府條例那政務人員的相關的其他的規範是不是也應該要一併提出\n\n44\n00:16:58,379 --> 00:17:22,372\n如果說是行政機關這麼消極這麼怠惰的話我們現在立法委員我們都非常努力很認真很積極我們會很迅速的提出相關的法案到時候你們還是得要配合辦理配合來審議不要又說是哎呀這個都跟我們這個我們當時都沒有參與啊我們都不表示意見然後法律通過之後又再提出申請釋憲說我們的法案是違憲我覺得這是極不負責任的態度\n\n45\n00:17:24,790 --> 00:17:40,451\n好以上OK也麻煩這個任市長不要忘記明天之前把我們剛剛講的你們送出去的軍公教的待遇審議辦法請一份給我好謝謝好謝翁委員那下一個我們請吳思堯\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n249\t16960\t發言主席好 這邊有請全序部施部長麻煩施部長\n21997\t44050\t是 市部長好因為我們今天討論的議題是有關於行政中立的議題當然我們現在曉得整個公務人員行政中立法裡面其實並沒有包含去規範政務人員的行政中立所以我想這也是目前在整個行政中立法制裡面其實最缺乏的一塊\n45588\t63620\t那麼我這邊我想請教您因為昨天賴清德總統他曾經有公開喊話說讓我們一起要針對核三研議的公投投下不同意票請問您認為賴總統說這句話有沒有違反行政中立有沒有\n64366\t85589\t沒有為什麼沒有我跟委員報告行政中立法裡面有規範的是選舉跟公投那它大部分規範是選舉那公投的部分我想這個部分總統的態度總統本來就不適用行政中立法他當然沒有違反行政中立法的問題那有沒有違反行政中立\n86630\t109395\t他是代表他作為一個國家元首對一個公投的立場的宣示所以你認為作為一個國家元首作為一個總統他的一個政策態度他可以他到底是代表誰他是代表全中華民國代表這個總統府這個機關還是說這今天是代表他個人的立場我覺得是代表他是一個民選總統出來以後他的政策的一個態度\n110185\t139082\t民選總統的政策對那現在就是一個這其實是立法院所提出來的公投這不是總統所提出來的防禦性公投所以呢他今天他用總統的身份去講這樣子的話這沒有妨害公投嗎我想公投本來就是沒有妨害到大家就是有關於公投的這個這個公平和合理以及這個這樣的一個投票投票行使嗎\n140623\t163068\t我認為他是代表他作為一個總統所宣示他的一個政策的態度所以我想這部分大概就是我跟部長對大家的意見的不同總統昨天是在什麼場合說這句話的他在總統府說的嗎他在中常會說的樣子中常會是哪邊的中常會是民進黨的中常會民進黨的中常會對\n165373\t191043\t這就是我要講的 如果說他今天他是作為一個民進黨的黨主席他就說這句話我沒有意見但是如果他今天作為一個總統他說這句話就顯不適當可是看起來我覺得從市部長您剛剛的回答裡面我認為說其實您對於一個國家機關一個重要的職務他利用他的職務的名氣對外發言他到底代表的是誰這樣子的一個\n194862\t216323\t觀念我覺得您是跟我們一般的這個法界學界的這些想法是完全不同的總統他是一個國家的名氣他利用這樣子的一個職務他對外說的話他是代表全中華民國的人民您知道有現在民調有多少民眾是支持河山研議的嗎\n218294\t241336\t我不清楚您不清楚所以代表您平常都沒有在關心時事都不曉得我們的民間的這個民間意見的這個趨勢我告訴您已經好幾個不同的民調機構都顯示大概有六成到七成的民眾是支持核酸原液的所以今天總統他講這句話他到底代表是誰的意見\n243070\t262126\t是他個人的意見嗎還是民進黨的意見如果說他今天是代表總統的意見說實在話我認為這就是嚴重違反行政中立雖然說在我們現在的行政中立法裡面你們可以講說確實我們今天在公務員員行政中立法是不規範政務人員的但是你們自己也有講到\n263587\t288126\t公務人員的長官也應該要遵守公務人員的行政中立法你們自己的解釋函都這麼說他不能夠指示部署做違反行政中立法的行為好 所以就代表說只可以長官 公務人員的長官部會首長 總統 院長他可以違反行政中立但他的下屬不可以違反行政中立\n289146\t306580\t我覺得這樣子的說法對於一般的社會大眾來講是無法接受的委員 我跟你報告 我們行政中立的這個名詞每個人見解不一樣 我尊重你的想法但是真正的行政中立 根據我們行政中立講法是指參與政治性的 積極性的參與政治活動所以剛剛總統說的那句話 他們沒有屬於政治活動的範疇嗎\n312523\t335138\t這是屬於他的政策的一個言論這是屬於政策還是屬於政治活動的言論我覺得這個部分的話真的是要搞清楚這也是為什麼大家現在對於所謂的行政中立的這個要把它法制化然後公務人員的行政中立法裡面其實它是對於公務人員要參與跟政治活動或是選舉公投相關的這個活動範圍的這樣的一個\n339481\t368701\t情況其實都做了非常嚴格的規範那但是呢反而是對於政務人員從總統以降的這些部會首長都是輕輕的放過 輕輕的帶過他們嚴重違反行政中立也都認為沒有違反行政中立然後我們已經很多次的希望全序部能夠趕快要去立法不管你是修法或是制定專法你總是要有個態度啊但是你們看我在今年五月份的時候我有請全序部給我一份\n370042\t392563\t給我一份資料就請你們去研析到底現在世界各國裡面對於這個政務人員的行政中立的相關的法制的規範情形如何就你們給我的這個各國制度比較的研析報告裡面第一個我寫的我我看了基本上就是一個非常簡單也沒有什麼深入研究的報告然後第二個呢就是\n393929\t422909\t從你們的報告裡面你們到底是希望是比照未來是應該要像加拿大一致就政務人員的職務本身就屬於政治性質所以他就可以從事政黨活動也不管他是不是上下班時間還是說應該像美國日本德國英國一樣這個基本上採取比較嚴格的標準在非政務職務的身份底下或是非執行職務的時候才可以參與政黨活動以及表達政黨立場\n424471\t425955\t就是你們現在局局部的態度是什麼\n427020\t453532\t我想委員當初有要求我們就一些其他國家的一個現行的規範給委員會做一個報告我們也務實的去做了這個事情也把相關的規定我想細部的那個條文當然沒有放在上面我們整理也跟委員會做過報告那我們的態度是說政務人員基本上跟公務人員他的本質就是非常不一樣如果說你要對政務人員的某些行為做規範\n454873\t465484\t那是屬於立法跟行政權的一個立法政策的一個議題所以全區部不準備提案修法因為根據憲法全區部不應該管政務人員\n466677\t488710\t好 所以你認為說從縣級的角度來講這個政務人員的相關法制不是屬於你們權序部考試院的權責那所以政務人員的退俯條例是誰定的我想如果委員可以多了解政務人員當初立法的一個背景一開始考試院是不樂意的我先要講嘛 政務人員的退修輔助條例的主管機關是哪個機關現在是考試院沒有錯\n489170\t511624\t是那所以既然你們都已經規定了都已經承擔了政務人員的退休撫恤條例作為他的主管機關然後你們也提案那為什麼針對政務人員中立法你們又撇得一乾二淨說這不是我的責任我想你們這樣的講法大家能夠接受嗎社會大眾能夠接受我覺得這是一個問題我跟委員報告基本還是回到憲法最上位的觀點我想憲法明擺講\n513049\t526855\t考試院主管公務人員政務人員是高度政治性不是只有中央政府有各級政府都有政務人員所以這是一個非常複雜的一個議題適不適合由考試院來做主管但是就實務上來講就現實的上面來講我們現在已經從憲法的解釋來講而且實務做法來說你們也已經承擔了去制定政務人員府去條例的一些\n534679\t560501\t如果剛剛有人報告過說那個從立法的背景如果早期的立法背景去了解的話現在的背景並沒有改變太多好 這個議題我不再跟您爭執了因為我想這個很重要就是這個全學部考試院如果怠惰不準備提案我們立法委員我們會主動的提案好 那這邊那就先謝謝您 時副部長那我接下來要請教任總這個請任市長\n563678\t569132\t是 任市長您好這個我直接了當的問請問2026年軍公教會調薪嗎\n572727\t601050\t我跟委員報告一下我們這個禮拜一有找公教協會的同仁來開會那在會議上他們都有表達他的期待然後我們最近會再開公教人員審議委員會然後開完會以後我們會盡快把結論送到行政院所以你們現在初步的方向是什麼8月21號的院會之前你們就會抵定嗎目前朝這個方向努力\n601892\t627748\t那所以是樂觀還是這個我沒辦法答覆因為這個決定前會在行政院這裡我們只是一個專業幕僚會把大家的意見中正所以這是你們專業幕僚你們應該就要提出專業的意見從現在零年的這個物價通膨各方面來看是不是軍公教目前的待遇的狀況都還是屬於中下偏低了也就是說跟其他的這個產業界裡面的這個薪資相比\n630089\t647628\t我們是不是還是我想我們會從幾個過面剛才我也提了CPI是其中一個還有經濟成長力的問題還有GDP的問題還有民間薪資的問題還有國家財政會從這基本上從這五大過面裡面我們會中整\n648869\t658435\t一個參考的數據 反正總之啦就是人事長你現在不敢把你們這個人事總處的意見清楚的表達出來會議還沒有開我們怎麼表達不是你明天已經有一個專業的意見了沒有沒有我們還要再開一次那個委員會\n666400\t693300\t好 OK 總之我就期待期待會有一個好的這個消息那麼接下來我要問的就是說我其實在今年大概三四月的時候我其實還是四五月我就已經請教過任市長你們到底對於軍公教待遇審議法制化的作業你們進行到什麼程度我還記得您那時候說你們任總已經提出了草案送行政院行政院七月底就會公布\n695131\t714734\t結果到現在都已經八月中了我跟委員報告我們兩個影子都沒看到整個法治化的條文總共有八條然後行政院所有的程序都走了那現在等於就是在等待把這個案子排到行政院院會當行政院院會通過以後會送大院審查\n715114\t734074\t那明明這個就是大家很關心而且這也是立法院這好幾個委員包含我在內我們都希望說能夠盡速的看到行政院的這個法案可是你們一直拖一直拖就算是你人是總處這裡算是有在合乎的期間之內提案那為什麼行政院一直拖拖拉拉\n735424\t752914\t都沒有要排定審案行政院有它綜合的考量因為每一個禮拜開了宴會要審查的法案事實上非常多尤其最近又加入所謂的台美的關稅相關的議題所以我想它會有一套機制去排序這個排議程也不是人事長您的全責但是我這邊只是要講就是有關於軍公教\n763038\t777590\t待遇審議的法制化這也是我們一直都很重視的對不對然後希望你們提案你們也不提那你們是不是應該要這個盡數在你們人事總之至少公告先預告你們的草案內容是什麼有預告過了後來呢後來的修正版本呢是不是可以請你們這個今天會後提供一份你們的這個送到行政院的公告草案給我\n788157\t813659\t我這裡可以答應委員啦我們會再跟行政院拜託看看盡快排錄連我們立法委員們都不可以知道你們到底提了什麼內容嗎我們那個資料會送給委員啦這也是個秘密的資訊就是了沒有沒有 這個公開的所以我這個本席要求今天會後你們在明天就可以把你們送到行政院的版本\n814740\t840620\t條文 你說只有八條嘛 送一份給本席或是這個司委會的委員們做參考這的話我們現在不少的一直等待下去這是當時我們對你們的要求你們沒有做到嘛那另外針對於這個政務人員奉請法制化的問題這也是一個目前在法制上面的一個空白的一塊\n842813\t871004\t我們現在政務人員的諷解是規定在哪裡我們有相關專法嗎就是我們現在對於總統副總統有一個專法但是政務人員現在沒有一個專法所以是規定在哪裡呢所以我們現在政務人員的諷解是怎麼給是依照什麼樣子的規定去\n872116\t900787\t合給他是根據那個行政院有一套已經實施很久內部的一個就是有一個複雜的一個內部的一個規定然後做每年在做年度調薪的時候就用那個方式來做有一個點數所以看起來就是不管是部長或是人事長都搞不清楚現在政務人員的縫緊是規定在哪裡是依照什麼樣子的辦法或是這個法令去合給\n902968\t926806\t這是規定在全國軍公教員工待遇知己要點的第三項裡面其中有個政務人員給予是照附表1鎖定數額之給好 我要先講就是說這個也是名不正言不順你政務人員是跟軍公教人員就是不一樣啊他的退休撫恤你們都有定專法那麼為什麼政務人員的奉集法你們卻不提\n928604\t955996\t這不應該是要把它提出來嗎中立法也說是軍公教人員跟政務人員不一樣也不能夠適用但是公務員服務法裡面卻又涵蓋了政務人員這個整個法制的體系是錯亂的我本行認為 權需不跟人走在這個地方你們都失職這不應該把它法制化弄清楚嗎\n960069\t972493\t所以政務人員的薪水到現在為止就是用一個要點在規範要調高 調 調 調減這都是你們自己行政裁量權把立法權全部都晾在旁邊我認為這不是一個正常的做法任市長\n981533\t1009349\t有可能順便提嗎 軍工匠人員奉集法制化然後呢 也另外再提出政務人員奉集法制化這個我們回去再演繹一下 好不好是 然後也希望是部長 至少在現行的制度底下考試院 權需部 他還是負責有關於政務人員的相關的法規啊不管您同不同意 但是現在就是如此\n1010583\t1016851\t所以既然有了政務人員退府條例那政務人員的相關的其他的規範是不是也應該要一併提出\n1018379\t1042372\t如果說是行政機關這麼消極這麼怠惰的話我們現在立法委員我們都非常努力很認真很積極我們會很迅速的提出相關的法案到時候你們還是得要配合辦理配合來審議不要又說是哎呀這個都跟我們這個我們當時都沒有參與啊我們都不表示意見然後法律通過之後又再提出申請釋憲說我們的法案是違憲我覺得這是極不負責任的態度\n1044790\t1060451\t好 以上 OK也麻煩這個任市長不要忘記明天之前把我們剛剛講的你們送出去的軍公教的待遇審議辦法請一份給我好 謝謝好 謝翁委員那下一個我們請吳思堯\n","txt":"發言主席好 這邊有請全序部施部長麻煩施部長\n是 市部長好因為我們今天討論的議題是有關於行政中立的議題當然我們現在曉得整個公務人員行政中立法裡面其實並沒有包含去規範政務人員的行政中立所以我想這也是目前在整個行政中立法制裡面其實最缺乏的一塊\n那麼我這邊我想請教您因為昨天賴清德總統他曾經有公開喊話說讓我們一起要針對核三研議的公投投下不同意票請問您認為賴總統說這句話有沒有違反行政中立有沒有\n沒有為什麼沒有我跟委員報告行政中立法裡面有規範的是選舉跟公投那它大部分規範是選舉那公投的部分我想這個部分總統的態度總統本來就不適用行政中立法他當然沒有違反行政中立法的問題那有沒有違反行政中立\n他是代表他作為一個國家元首對一個公投的立場的宣示所以你認為作為一個國家元首作為一個總統他的一個政策態度他可以他到底是代表誰他是代表全中華民國代表這個總統府這個機關還是說這今天是代表他個人的立場我覺得是代表他是一個民選總統出來以後他的政策的一個態度\n民選總統的政策對那現在就是一個這其實是立法院所提出來的公投這不是總統所提出來的防禦性公投所以呢他今天他用總統的身份去講這樣子的話這沒有妨害公投嗎我想公投本來就是沒有妨害到大家就是有關於公投的這個這個公平和合理以及這個這樣的一個投票投票行使嗎\n我認為他是代表他作為一個總統所宣示他的一個政策的態度所以我想這部分大概就是我跟部長對大家的意見的不同總統昨天是在什麼場合說這句話的他在總統府說的嗎他在中常會說的樣子中常會是哪邊的中常會是民進黨的中常會民進黨的中常會對\n這就是我要講的 如果說他今天他是作為一個民進黨的黨主席他就說這句話我沒有意見但是如果他今天作為一個總統他說這句話就顯不適當可是看起來我覺得從市部長您剛剛的回答裡面我認為說其實您對於一個國家機關一個重要的職務他利用他的職務的名氣對外發言他到底代表的是誰這樣子的一個\n觀念我覺得您是跟我們一般的這個法界學界的這些想法是完全不同的總統他是一個國家的名氣他利用這樣子的一個職務他對外說的話他是代表全中華民國的人民您知道有現在民調有多少民眾是支持河山研議的嗎\n我不清楚您不清楚所以代表您平常都沒有在關心時事都不曉得我們的民間的這個民間意見的這個趨勢我告訴您已經好幾個不同的民調機構都顯示大概有六成到七成的民眾是支持核酸原液的所以今天總統他講這句話他到底代表是誰的意見\n是他個人的意見嗎還是民進黨的意見如果說他今天是代表總統的意見說實在話我認為這就是嚴重違反行政中立雖然說在我們現在的行政中立法裡面你們可以講說確實我們今天在公務員員行政中立法是不規範政務人員的但是你們自己也有講到\n公務人員的長官也應該要遵守公務人員的行政中立法你們自己的解釋函都這麼說他不能夠指示部署做違反行政中立法的行為好 所以就代表說只可以長官 公務人員的長官部會首長 總統 院長他可以違反行政中立但他的下屬不可以違反行政中立\n我覺得這樣子的說法對於一般的社會大眾來講是無法接受的委員 我跟你報告 我們行政中立的這個名詞每個人見解不一樣 我尊重你的想法但是真正的行政中立 根據我們行政中立講法是指參與政治性的 積極性的參與政治活動所以剛剛總統說的那句話 他們沒有屬於政治活動的範疇嗎\n這是屬於他的政策的一個言論這是屬於政策還是屬於政治活動的言論我覺得這個部分的話真的是要搞清楚這也是為什麼大家現在對於所謂的行政中立的這個要把它法制化然後公務人員的行政中立法裡面其實它是對於公務人員要參與跟政治活動或是選舉公投相關的這個活動範圍的這樣的一個\n情況其實都做了非常嚴格的規範那但是呢反而是對於政務人員從總統以降的這些部會首長都是輕輕的放過 輕輕的帶過他們嚴重違反行政中立也都認為沒有違反行政中立然後我們已經很多次的希望全序部能夠趕快要去立法不管你是修法或是制定專法你總是要有個態度啊但是你們看我在今年五月份的時候我有請全序部給我一份\n給我一份資料就請你們去研析到底現在世界各國裡面對於這個政務人員的行政中立的相關的法制的規範情形如何就你們給我的這個各國制度比較的研析報告裡面第一個我寫的我我看了基本上就是一個非常簡單也沒有什麼深入研究的報告然後第二個呢就是\n從你們的報告裡面你們到底是希望是比照未來是應該要像加拿大一致就政務人員的職務本身就屬於政治性質所以他就可以從事政黨活動也不管他是不是上下班時間還是說應該像美國日本德國英國一樣這個基本上採取比較嚴格的標準在非政務職務的身份底下或是非執行職務的時候才可以參與政黨活動以及表達政黨立場\n就是你們現在局局部的態度是什麼\n我想委員當初有要求我們就一些其他國家的一個現行的規範給委員會做一個報告我們也務實的去做了這個事情也把相關的規定我想細部的那個條文當然沒有放在上面我們整理也跟委員會做過報告那我們的態度是說政務人員基本上跟公務人員他的本質就是非常不一樣如果說你要對政務人員的某些行為做規範\n那是屬於立法跟行政權的一個立法政策的一個議題所以全區部不準備提案修法因為根據憲法全區部不應該管政務人員\n好 所以你認為說從縣級的角度來講這個政務人員的相關法制不是屬於你們權序部考試院的權責那所以政務人員的退俯條例是誰定的我想如果委員可以多了解政務人員當初立法的一個背景一開始考試院是不樂意的我先要講嘛 政務人員的退修輔助條例的主管機關是哪個機關現在是考試院沒有錯\n是那所以既然你們都已經規定了都已經承擔了政務人員的退休撫恤條例作為他的主管機關然後你們也提案那為什麼針對政務人員中立法你們又撇得一乾二淨說這不是我的責任我想你們這樣的講法大家能夠接受嗎社會大眾能夠接受我覺得這是一個問題我跟委員報告基本還是回到憲法最上位的觀點我想憲法明擺講\n考試院主管公務人員政務人員是高度政治性不是只有中央政府有各級政府都有政務人員所以這是一個非常複雜的一個議題適不適合由考試院來做主管但是就實務上來講就現實的上面來講我們現在已經從憲法的解釋來講而且實務做法來說你們也已經承擔了去制定政務人員府去條例的一些\n如果剛剛有人報告過說那個從立法的背景如果早期的立法背景去了解的話現在的背景並沒有改變太多好 這個議題我不再跟您爭執了因為我想這個很重要就是這個全學部考試院如果怠惰不準備提案我們立法委員我們會主動的提案好 那這邊那就先謝謝您 時副部長那我接下來要請教任總這個請任市長\n是 任市長您好這個我直接了當的問請問2026年軍公教會調薪嗎\n我跟委員報告一下我們這個禮拜一有找公教協會的同仁來開會那在會議上他們都有表達他的期待然後我們最近會再開公教人員審議委員會然後開完會以後我們會盡快把結論送到行政院所以你們現在初步的方向是什麼8月21號的院會之前你們就會抵定嗎目前朝這個方向努力\n那所以是樂觀還是這個我沒辦法答覆因為這個決定前會在行政院這裡我們只是一個專業幕僚會把大家的意見中正所以這是你們專業幕僚你們應該就要提出專業的意見從現在零年的這個物價通膨各方面來看是不是軍公教目前的待遇的狀況都還是屬於中下偏低了也就是說跟其他的這個產業界裡面的這個薪資相比\n我們是不是還是我想我們會從幾個過面剛才我也提了CPI是其中一個還有經濟成長力的問題還有GDP的問題還有民間薪資的問題還有國家財政會從這基本上從這五大過面裡面我們會中整\n一個參考的數據 反正總之啦就是人事長你現在不敢把你們這個人事總處的意見清楚的表達出來會議還沒有開我們怎麼表達不是你明天已經有一個專業的意見了沒有沒有我們還要再開一次那個委員會\n好 OK 總之我就期待期待會有一個好的這個消息那麼接下來我要問的就是說我其實在今年大概三四月的時候我其實還是四五月我就已經請教過任市長你們到底對於軍公教待遇審議法制化的作業你們進行到什麼程度我還記得您那時候說你們任總已經提出了草案送行政院行政院七月底就會公布\n結果到現在都已經八月中了我跟委員報告我們兩個影子都沒看到整個法治化的條文總共有八條然後行政院所有的程序都走了那現在等於就是在等待把這個案子排到行政院院會當行政院院會通過以後會送大院審查\n那明明這個就是大家很關心而且這也是立法院這好幾個委員包含我在內我們都希望說能夠盡速的看到行政院的這個法案可是你們一直拖一直拖就算是你人是總處這裡算是有在合乎的期間之內提案那為什麼行政院一直拖拖拉拉\n都沒有要排定審案行政院有它綜合的考量因為每一個禮拜開了宴會要審查的法案事實上非常多尤其最近又加入所謂的台美的關稅相關的議題所以我想它會有一套機制去排序這個排議程也不是人事長您的全責但是我這邊只是要講就是有關於軍公教\n待遇審議的法制化這也是我們一直都很重視的對不對然後希望你們提案你們也不提那你們是不是應該要這個盡數在你們人事總之至少公告先預告你們的草案內容是什麼有預告過了後來呢後來的修正版本呢是不是可以請你們這個今天會後提供一份你們的這個送到行政院的公告草案給我\n我這裡可以答應委員啦我們會再跟行政院拜託看看盡快排錄連我們立法委員們都不可以知道你們到底提了什麼內容嗎我們那個資料會送給委員啦這也是個秘密的資訊就是了沒有沒有 這個公開的所以我這個本席要求今天會後你們在明天就可以把你們送到行政院的版本\n條文 你說只有八條嘛 送一份給本席或是這個司委會的委員們做參考這的話我們現在不少的一直等待下去這是當時我們對你們的要求你們沒有做到嘛那另外針對於這個政務人員奉請法制化的問題這也是一個目前在法制上面的一個空白的一塊\n我們現在政務人員的諷解是規定在哪裡我們有相關專法嗎就是我們現在對於總統副總統有一個專法但是政務人員現在沒有一個專法所以是規定在哪裡呢所以我們現在政務人員的諷解是怎麼給是依照什麼樣子的規定去\n合給他是根據那個行政院有一套已經實施很久內部的一個就是有一個複雜的一個內部的一個規定然後做每年在做年度調薪的時候就用那個方式來做有一個點數所以看起來就是不管是部長或是人事長都搞不清楚現在政務人員的縫緊是規定在哪裡是依照什麼樣子的辦法或是這個法令去合給\n這是規定在全國軍公教員工待遇知己要點的第三項裡面其中有個政務人員給予是照附表1鎖定數額之給好 我要先講就是說這個也是名不正言不順你政務人員是跟軍公教人員就是不一樣啊他的退休撫恤你們都有定專法那麼為什麼政務人員的奉集法你們卻不提\n這不應該是要把它提出來嗎中立法也說是軍公教人員跟政務人員不一樣也不能夠適用但是公務員服務法裡面卻又涵蓋了政務人員這個整個法制的體系是錯亂的我本行認為 權需不跟人走在這個地方你們都失職這不應該把它法制化弄清楚嗎\n所以政務人員的薪水到現在為止就是用一個要點在規範要調高 調 調 調減這都是你們自己行政裁量權把立法權全部都晾在旁邊我認為這不是一個正常的做法任市長\n有可能順便提嗎 軍工匠人員奉集法制化然後呢 也另外再提出政務人員奉集法制化這個我們回去再演繹一下 好不好是 然後也希望是部長 至少在現行的制度底下考試院 權需部 他還是負責有關於政務人員的相關的法規啊不管您同不同意 但是現在就是如此\n所以既然有了政務人員退府條例那政務人員的相關的其他的規範是不是也應該要一併提出\n如果說是行政機關這麼消極這麼怠惰的話我們現在立法委員我們都非常努力很認真很積極我們會很迅速的提出相關的法案到時候你們還是得要配合辦理配合來審議不要又說是哎呀這個都跟我們這個我們當時都沒有參與啊我們都不表示意見然後法律通過之後又再提出申請釋憲說我們的法案是違憲我覺得這是極不負責任的態度\n好 以上 OK也麻煩這個任市長不要忘記明天之前把我們剛剛講的你們送出去的軍公教的待遇審議辦法請一份給我好 謝謝好 謝翁委員那下一個我們請吳思堯\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.249 --> 00:16.960\n發言主席好這邊有請全序部施部長麻煩施部長\n\n00:21.997 --> 00:44.050\n是市部長好因為我們今天討論的議題是有關於行政中立的議題當然我們現在曉得整個公務人員行政中立法裡面其實並沒有包含去規範政務人員的行政中立所以我想這也是目前在整個行政中立法制裡面其實最缺乏的一塊\n\n00:45.588 --> 01:03.620\n那麼我這邊我想請教您因為昨天賴清德總統他曾經有公開喊話說讓我們一起要針對核三研議的公投投下不同意票請問您認為賴總統說這句話有沒有違反行政中立有沒有\n\n01:04.366 --> 01:25.589\n沒有為什麼沒有我跟委員報告行政中立法裡面有規範的是選舉跟公投那它大部分規範是選舉那公投的部分我想這個部分總統的態度總統本來就不適用行政中立法他當然沒有違反行政中立法的問題那有沒有違反行政中立\n\n01:26.630 --> 01:49.395\n他是代表他作為一個國家元首對一個公投的立場的宣示所以你認為作為一個國家元首作為一個總統他的一個政策態度他可以他到底是代表誰他是代表全中華民國代表這個總統府這個機關還是說這今天是代表他個人的立場我覺得是代表他是一個民選總統出來以後他的政策的一個態度\n\n01:50.185 --> 02:19.082\n民選總統的政策對那現在就是一個這其實是立法院所提出來的公投這不是總統所提出來的防禦性公投所以呢他今天他用總統的身份去講這樣子的話這沒有妨害公投嗎我想公投本來就是沒有妨害到大家就是有關於公投的這個這個公平和合理以及這個這樣的一個投票投票行使嗎\n\n02:20.623 --> 02:43.068\n我認為他是代表他作為一個總統所宣示他的一個政策的態度所以我想這部分大概就是我跟部長對大家的意見的不同總統昨天是在什麼場合說這句話的他在總統府說的嗎他在中常會說的樣子中常會是哪邊的中常會是民進黨的中常會民進黨的中常會對\n\n02:45.373 --> 03:11.043\n這就是我要講的如果說他今天他是作為一個民進黨的黨主席他就說這句話我沒有意見但是如果他今天作為一個總統他說這句話就顯不適當可是看起來我覺得從市部長您剛剛的回答裡面我認為說其實您對於一個國家機關一個重要的職務他利用他的職務的名氣對外發言他到底代表的是誰這樣子的一個\n\n03:14.862 --> 03:36.323\n觀念我覺得您是跟我們一般的這個法界學界的這些想法是完全不同的總統他是一個國家的名氣他利用這樣子的一個職務他對外說的話他是代表全中華民國的人民您知道有現在民調有多少民眾是支持河山研議的嗎\n\n03:38.294 --> 04:01.336\n我不清楚您不清楚所以代表您平常都沒有在關心時事都不曉得我們的民間的這個民間意見的這個趨勢我告訴您已經好幾個不同的民調機構都顯示大概有六成到七成的民眾是支持核酸原液的所以今天總統他講這句話他到底代表是誰的意見\n\n04:03.070 --> 04:22.126\n是他個人的意見嗎還是民進黨的意見如果說他今天是代表總統的意見說實在話我認為這就是嚴重違反行政中立雖然說在我們現在的行政中立法裡面你們可以講說確實我們今天在公務員員行政中立法是不規範政務人員的但是你們自己也有講到\n\n04:23.587 --> 04:48.126\n公務人員的長官也應該要遵守公務人員的行政中立法你們自己的解釋函都這麼說他不能夠指示部署做違反行政中立法的行為好所以就代表說只可以長官公務人員的長官部會首長總統院長他可以違反行政中立但他的下屬不可以違反行政中立\n\n04:49.146 --> 05:06.580\n我覺得這樣子的說法對於一般的社會大眾來講是無法接受的委員我跟你報告我們行政中立的這個名詞每個人見解不一樣我尊重你的想法但是真正的行政中立根據我們行政中立講法是指參與政治性的積極性的參與政治活動所以剛剛總統說的那句話他們沒有屬於政治活動的範疇嗎\n\n05:12.523 --> 05:35.138\n這是屬於他的政策的一個言論這是屬於政策還是屬於政治活動的言論我覺得這個部分的話真的是要搞清楚這也是為什麼大家現在對於所謂的行政中立的這個要把它法制化然後公務人員的行政中立法裡面其實它是對於公務人員要參與跟政治活動或是選舉公投相關的這個活動範圍的這樣的一個\n\n05:39.481 --> 06:08.701\n情況其實都做了非常嚴格的規範那但是呢反而是對於政務人員從總統以降的這些部會首長都是輕輕的放過輕輕的帶過他們嚴重違反行政中立也都認為沒有違反行政中立然後我們已經很多次的希望全序部能夠趕快要去立法不管你是修法或是制定專法你總是要有個態度啊但是你們看我在今年五月份的時候我有請全序部給我一份\n\n06:10.042 --> 06:32.563\n給我一份資料就請你們去研析到底現在世界各國裡面對於這個政務人員的行政中立的相關的法制的規範情形如何就你們給我的這個各國制度比較的研析報告裡面第一個我寫的我我看了基本上就是一個非常簡單也沒有什麼深入研究的報告然後第二個呢就是\n\n06:33.929 --> 07:02.909\n從你們的報告裡面你們到底是希望是比照未來是應該要像加拿大一致就政務人員的職務本身就屬於政治性質所以他就可以從事政黨活動也不管他是不是上下班時間還是說應該像美國日本德國英國一樣這個基本上採取比較嚴格的標準在非政務職務的身份底下或是非執行職務的時候才可以參與政黨活動以及表達政黨立場\n\n07:04.471 --> 07:05.955\n就是你們現在局局部的態度是什麼\n\n07:07.020 --> 07:33.532\n我想委員當初有要求我們就一些其他國家的一個現行的規範給委員會做一個報告我們也務實的去做了這個事情也把相關的規定我想細部的那個條文當然沒有放在上面我們整理也跟委員會做過報告那我們的態度是說政務人員基本上跟公務人員他的本質就是非常不一樣如果說你要對政務人員的某些行為做規範\n\n07:34.873 --> 07:45.484\n那是屬於立法跟行政權的一個立法政策的一個議題所以全區部不準備提案修法因為根據憲法全區部不應該管政務人員\n\n07:46.677 --> 08:08.710\n好所以你認為說從縣級的角度來講這個政務人員的相關法制不是屬於你們權序部考試院的權責那所以政務人員的退俯條例是誰定的我想如果委員可以多了解政務人員當初立法的一個背景一開始考試院是不樂意的我先要講嘛政務人員的退修輔助條例的主管機關是哪個機關現在是考試院沒有錯\n\n08:09.170 --> 08:31.624\n是那所以既然你們都已經規定了都已經承擔了政務人員的退休撫恤條例作為他的主管機關然後你們也提案那為什麼針對政務人員中立法你們又撇得一乾二淨說這不是我的責任我想你們這樣的講法大家能夠接受嗎社會大眾能夠接受我覺得這是一個問題我跟委員報告基本還是回到憲法最上位的觀點我想憲法明擺講\n\n08:33.049 --> 08:46.855\n考試院主管公務人員政務人員是高度政治性不是只有中央政府有各級政府都有政務人員所以這是一個非常複雜的一個議題適不適合由考試院來做主管但是就實務上來講就現實的上面來講我們現在已經從憲法的解釋來講而且實務做法來說你們也已經承擔了去制定政務人員府去條例的一些\n\n08:54.679 --> 09:20.501\n如果剛剛有人報告過說那個從立法的背景如果早期的立法背景去了解的話現在的背景並沒有改變太多好這個議題我不再跟您爭執了因為我想這個很重要就是這個全學部考試院如果怠惰不準備提案我們立法委員我們會主動的提案好那這邊那就先謝謝您時副部長那我接下來要請教任總這個請任市長\n\n09:23.678 --> 09:29.132\n是任市長您好這個我直接了當的問請問2026年軍公教會調薪嗎\n\n09:32.727 --> 10:01.050\n我跟委員報告一下我們這個禮拜一有找公教協會的同仁來開會那在會議上他們都有表達他的期待然後我們最近會再開公教人員審議委員會然後開完會以後我們會盡快把結論送到行政院所以你們現在初步的方向是什麼8月21號的院會之前你們就會抵定嗎目前朝這個方向努力\n\n10:01.892 --> 10:27.748\n那所以是樂觀還是這個我沒辦法答覆因為這個決定前會在行政院這裡我們只是一個專業幕僚會把大家的意見中正所以這是你們專業幕僚你們應該就要提出專業的意見從現在零年的這個物價通膨各方面來看是不是軍公教目前的待遇的狀況都還是屬於中下偏低了也就是說跟其他的這個產業界裡面的這個薪資相比\n\n10:30.089 --> 10:47.628\n我們是不是還是我想我們會從幾個過面剛才我也提了CPI是其中一個還有經濟成長力的問題還有GDP的問題還有民間薪資的問題還有國家財政會從這基本上從這五大過面裡面我們會中整\n\n10:48.869 --> 10:58.435\n一個參考的數據反正總之啦就是人事長你現在不敢把你們這個人事總處的意見清楚的表達出來會議還沒有開我們怎麼表達不是你明天已經有一個專業的意見了沒有沒有我們還要再開一次那個委員會\n\n11:06.400 --> 11:33.300\n好OK總之我就期待期待會有一個好的這個消息那麼接下來我要問的就是說我其實在今年大概三四月的時候我其實還是四五月我就已經請教過任市長你們到底對於軍公教待遇審議法制化的作業你們進行到什麼程度我還記得您那時候說你們任總已經提出了草案送行政院行政院七月底就會公布\n\n11:35.131 --> 11:54.734\n結果到現在都已經八月中了我跟委員報告我們兩個影子都沒看到整個法治化的條文總共有八條然後行政院所有的程序都走了那現在等於就是在等待把這個案子排到行政院院會當行政院院會通過以後會送大院審查\n\n11:55.114 --> 12:14.074\n那明明這個就是大家很關心而且這也是立法院這好幾個委員包含我在內我們都希望說能夠盡速的看到行政院的這個法案可是你們一直拖一直拖就算是你人是總處這裡算是有在合乎的期間之內提案那為什麼行政院一直拖拖拉拉\n\n12:15.424 --> 12:32.914\n都沒有要排定審案行政院有它綜合的考量因為每一個禮拜開了宴會要審查的法案事實上非常多尤其最近又加入所謂的台美的關稅相關的議題所以我想它會有一套機制去排序這個排議程也不是人事長您的全責但是我這邊只是要講就是有關於軍公教\n\n12:43.038 --> 12:57.590\n待遇審議的法制化這也是我們一直都很重視的對不對然後希望你們提案你們也不提那你們是不是應該要這個盡數在你們人事總之至少公告先預告你們的草案內容是什麼有預告過了後來呢後來的修正版本呢是不是可以請你們這個今天會後提供一份你們的這個送到行政院的公告草案給我\n\n13:08.157 --> 13:33.659\n我這裡可以答應委員啦我們會再跟行政院拜託看看盡快排錄連我們立法委員們都不可以知道你們到底提了什麼內容嗎我們那個資料會送給委員啦這也是個秘密的資訊就是了沒有沒有這個公開的所以我這個本席要求今天會後你們在明天就可以把你們送到行政院的版本\n\n13:34.740 --> 14:00.620\n條文你說只有八條嘛送一份給本席或是這個司委會的委員們做參考這的話我們現在不少的一直等待下去這是當時我們對你們的要求你們沒有做到嘛那另外針對於這個政務人員奉請法制化的問題這也是一個目前在法制上面的一個空白的一塊\n\n14:02.813 --> 14:31.004\n我們現在政務人員的諷解是規定在哪裡我們有相關專法嗎就是我們現在對於總統副總統有一個專法但是政務人員現在沒有一個專法所以是規定在哪裡呢所以我們現在政務人員的諷解是怎麼給是依照什麼樣子的規定去\n\n14:32.116 --> 15:00.787\n合給他是根據那個行政院有一套已經實施很久內部的一個就是有一個複雜的一個內部的一個規定然後做每年在做年度調薪的時候就用那個方式來做有一個點數所以看起來就是不管是部長或是人事長都搞不清楚現在政務人員的縫緊是規定在哪裡是依照什麼樣子的辦法或是這個法令去合給\n\n15:02.968 --> 15:26.806\n這是規定在全國軍公教員工待遇知己要點的第三項裡面其中有個政務人員給予是照附表1鎖定數額之給好我要先講就是說這個也是名不正言不順你政務人員是跟軍公教人員就是不一樣啊他的退休撫恤你們都有定專法那麼為什麼政務人員的奉集法你們卻不提\n\n15:28.604 --> 15:55.996\n這不應該是要把它提出來嗎中立法也說是軍公教人員跟政務人員不一樣也不能夠適用但是公務員服務法裡面卻又涵蓋了政務人員這個整個法制的體系是錯亂的我本行認為權需不跟人走在這個地方你們都失職這不應該把它法制化弄清楚嗎\n\n16:00.069 --> 16:12.493\n所以政務人員的薪水到現在為止就是用一個要點在規範要調高調調調減這都是你們自己行政裁量權把立法權全部都晾在旁邊我認為這不是一個正常的做法任市長\n\n16:21.533 --> 16:49.349\n有可能順便提嗎軍工匠人員奉集法制化然後呢也另外再提出政務人員奉集法制化這個我們回去再演繹一下好不好是然後也希望是部長至少在現行的制度底下考試院權需部他還是負責有關於政務人員的相關的法規啊不管您同不同意但是現在就是如此\n\n16:50.583 --> 16:56.851\n所以既然有了政務人員退府條例那政務人員的相關的其他的規範是不是也應該要一併提出\n\n16:58.379 --> 17:22.372\n如果說是行政機關這麼消極這麼怠惰的話我們現在立法委員我們都非常努力很認真很積極我們會很迅速的提出相關的法案到時候你們還是得要配合辦理配合來審議不要又說是哎呀這個都跟我們這個我們當時都沒有參與啊我們都不表示意見然後法律通過之後又再提出申請釋憲說我們的法案是違憲我覺得這是極不負責任的態度\n\n17:24.790 --> 17:40.451\n好以上OK也麻煩這個任市長不要忘記明天之前把我們剛剛講的你們送出去的軍公教的待遇審議辦法請一份給我好謝謝好謝翁委員那下一個我們請吳思堯\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.249,"end":16.96,"text":"發言主席好 這邊有請全序部施部長麻煩施部長"},{"start":21.997,"end":44.05,"text":"是 市部長好因為我們今天討論的議題是有關於行政中立的議題當然我們現在曉得整個公務人員行政中立法裡面其實並沒有包含去規範政務人員的行政中立所以我想這也是目前在整個行政中立法制裡面其實最缺乏的一塊"},{"start":45.588,"end":63.62,"text":"那麼我這邊我想請教您因為昨天賴清德總統他曾經有公開喊話說讓我們一起要針對核三研議的公投投下不同意票請問您認為賴總統說這句話有沒有違反行政中立有沒有"},{"start":64.366,"end":85.589,"text":"沒有為什麼沒有我跟委員報告行政中立法裡面有規範的是選舉跟公投那它大部分規範是選舉那公投的部分我想這個部分總統的態度總統本來就不適用行政中立法他當然沒有違反行政中立法的問題那有沒有違反行政中立"},{"start":86.63,"end":109.395,"text":"他是代表他作為一個國家元首對一個公投的立場的宣示所以你認為作為一個國家元首作為一個總統他的一個政策態度他可以他到底是代表誰他是代表全中華民國代表這個總統府這個機關還是說這今天是代表他個人的立場我覺得是代表他是一個民選總統出來以後他的政策的一個態度"},{"start":110.185,"end":139.082,"text":"民選總統的政策對那現在就是一個這其實是立法院所提出來的公投這不是總統所提出來的防禦性公投所以呢他今天他用總統的身份去講這樣子的話這沒有妨害公投嗎我想公投本來就是沒有妨害到大家就是有關於公投的這個這個公平和合理以及這個這樣的一個投票投票行使嗎"},{"start":140.623,"end":163.068,"text":"我認為他是代表他作為一個總統所宣示他的一個政策的態度所以我想這部分大概就是我跟部長對大家的意見的不同總統昨天是在什麼場合說這句話的他在總統府說的嗎他在中常會說的樣子中常會是哪邊的中常會是民進黨的中常會民進黨的中常會對"},{"start":165.373,"end":191.043,"text":"這就是我要講的 如果說他今天他是作為一個民進黨的黨主席他就說這句話我沒有意見但是如果他今天作為一個總統他說這句話就顯不適當可是看起來我覺得從市部長您剛剛的回答裡面我認為說其實您對於一個國家機關一個重要的職務他利用他的職務的名氣對外發言他到底代表的是誰這樣子的一個"},{"start":194.862,"end":216.323,"text":"觀念我覺得您是跟我們一般的這個法界學界的這些想法是完全不同的總統他是一個國家的名氣他利用這樣子的一個職務他對外說的話他是代表全中華民國的人民您知道有現在民調有多少民眾是支持河山研議的嗎"},{"start":218.294,"end":241.336,"text":"我不清楚您不清楚所以代表您平常都沒有在關心時事都不曉得我們的民間的這個民間意見的這個趨勢我告訴您已經好幾個不同的民調機構都顯示大概有六成到七成的民眾是支持核酸原液的所以今天總統他講這句話他到底代表是誰的意見"},{"start":243.07,"end":262.126,"text":"是他個人的意見嗎還是民進黨的意見如果說他今天是代表總統的意見說實在話我認為這就是嚴重違反行政中立雖然說在我們現在的行政中立法裡面你們可以講說確實我們今天在公務員員行政中立法是不規範政務人員的但是你們自己也有講到"},{"start":263.587,"end":288.126,"text":"公務人員的長官也應該要遵守公務人員的行政中立法你們自己的解釋函都這麼說他不能夠指示部署做違反行政中立法的行為好 所以就代表說只可以長官 公務人員的長官部會首長 總統 院長他可以違反行政中立但他的下屬不可以違反行政中立"},{"start":289.146,"end":306.58,"text":"我覺得這樣子的說法對於一般的社會大眾來講是無法接受的委員 我跟你報告 我們行政中立的這個名詞每個人見解不一樣 我尊重你的想法但是真正的行政中立 根據我們行政中立講法是指參與政治性的 積極性的參與政治活動所以剛剛總統說的那句話 他們沒有屬於政治活動的範疇嗎"},{"start":312.523,"end":335.138,"text":"這是屬於他的政策的一個言論這是屬於政策還是屬於政治活動的言論我覺得這個部分的話真的是要搞清楚這也是為什麼大家現在對於所謂的行政中立的這個要把它法制化然後公務人員的行政中立法裡面其實它是對於公務人員要參與跟政治活動或是選舉公投相關的這個活動範圍的這樣的一個"},{"start":339.481,"end":368.701,"text":"情況其實都做了非常嚴格的規範那但是呢反而是對於政務人員從總統以降的這些部會首長都是輕輕的放過 輕輕的帶過他們嚴重違反行政中立也都認為沒有違反行政中立然後我們已經很多次的希望全序部能夠趕快要去立法不管你是修法或是制定專法你總是要有個態度啊但是你們看我在今年五月份的時候我有請全序部給我一份"},{"start":370.042,"end":392.563,"text":"給我一份資料就請你們去研析到底現在世界各國裡面對於這個政務人員的行政中立的相關的法制的規範情形如何就你們給我的這個各國制度比較的研析報告裡面第一個我寫的我我看了基本上就是一個非常簡單也沒有什麼深入研究的報告然後第二個呢就是"},{"start":393.929,"end":422.909,"text":"從你們的報告裡面你們到底是希望是比照未來是應該要像加拿大一致就政務人員的職務本身就屬於政治性質所以他就可以從事政黨活動也不管他是不是上下班時間還是說應該像美國日本德國英國一樣這個基本上採取比較嚴格的標準在非政務職務的身份底下或是非執行職務的時候才可以參與政黨活動以及表達政黨立場"},{"start":424.471,"end":425.955,"text":"就是你們現在局局部的態度是什麼"},{"start":427.02,"end":453.532,"text":"我想委員當初有要求我們就一些其他國家的一個現行的規範給委員會做一個報告我們也務實的去做了這個事情也把相關的規定我想細部的那個條文當然沒有放在上面我們整理也跟委員會做過報告那我們的態度是說政務人員基本上跟公務人員他的本質就是非常不一樣如果說你要對政務人員的某些行為做規範"},{"start":454.873,"end":465.484,"text":"那是屬於立法跟行政權的一個立法政策的一個議題所以全區部不準備提案修法因為根據憲法全區部不應該管政務人員"},{"start":466.677,"end":488.71,"text":"好 所以你認為說從縣級的角度來講這個政務人員的相關法制不是屬於你們權序部考試院的權責那所以政務人員的退俯條例是誰定的我想如果委員可以多了解政務人員當初立法的一個背景一開始考試院是不樂意的我先要講嘛 政務人員的退修輔助條例的主管機關是哪個機關現在是考試院沒有錯"},{"start":489.17,"end":511.624,"text":"是那所以既然你們都已經規定了都已經承擔了政務人員的退休撫恤條例作為他的主管機關然後你們也提案那為什麼針對政務人員中立法你們又撇得一乾二淨說這不是我的責任我想你們這樣的講法大家能夠接受嗎社會大眾能夠接受我覺得這是一個問題我跟委員報告基本還是回到憲法最上位的觀點我想憲法明擺講"},{"start":513.049,"end":526.855,"text":"考試院主管公務人員政務人員是高度政治性不是只有中央政府有各級政府都有政務人員所以這是一個非常複雜的一個議題適不適合由考試院來做主管但是就實務上來講就現實的上面來講我們現在已經從憲法的解釋來講而且實務做法來說你們也已經承擔了去制定政務人員府去條例的一些"},{"start":534.679,"end":560.501,"text":"如果剛剛有人報告過說那個從立法的背景如果早期的立法背景去了解的話現在的背景並沒有改變太多好 這個議題我不再跟您爭執了因為我想這個很重要就是這個全學部考試院如果怠惰不準備提案我們立法委員我們會主動的提案好 那這邊那就先謝謝您 時副部長那我接下來要請教任總這個請任市長"},{"start":563.678,"end":569.132,"text":"是 任市長您好這個我直接了當的問請問2026年軍公教會調薪嗎"},{"start":572.727,"end":601.05,"text":"我跟委員報告一下我們這個禮拜一有找公教協會的同仁來開會那在會議上他們都有表達他的期待然後我們最近會再開公教人員審議委員會然後開完會以後我們會盡快把結論送到行政院所以你們現在初步的方向是什麼8月21號的院會之前你們就會抵定嗎目前朝這個方向努力"},{"start":601.892,"end":627.748,"text":"那所以是樂觀還是這個我沒辦法答覆因為這個決定前會在行政院這裡我們只是一個專業幕僚會把大家的意見中正所以這是你們專業幕僚你們應該就要提出專業的意見從現在零年的這個物價通膨各方面來看是不是軍公教目前的待遇的狀況都還是屬於中下偏低了也就是說跟其他的這個產業界裡面的這個薪資相比"},{"start":630.089,"end":647.628,"text":"我們是不是還是我想我們會從幾個過面剛才我也提了CPI是其中一個還有經濟成長力的問題還有GDP的問題還有民間薪資的問題還有國家財政會從這基本上從這五大過面裡面我們會中整"},{"start":648.869,"end":658.435,"text":"一個參考的數據 反正總之啦就是人事長你現在不敢把你們這個人事總處的意見清楚的表達出來會議還沒有開我們怎麼表達不是你明天已經有一個專業的意見了沒有沒有我們還要再開一次那個委員會"},{"start":666.4,"end":693.3,"text":"好 OK 總之我就期待期待會有一個好的這個消息那麼接下來我要問的就是說我其實在今年大概三四月的時候我其實還是四五月我就已經請教過任市長你們到底對於軍公教待遇審議法制化的作業你們進行到什麼程度我還記得您那時候說你們任總已經提出了草案送行政院行政院七月底就會公布"},{"start":695.131,"end":714.734,"text":"結果到現在都已經八月中了我跟委員報告我們兩個影子都沒看到整個法治化的條文總共有八條然後行政院所有的程序都走了那現在等於就是在等待把這個案子排到行政院院會當行政院院會通過以後會送大院審查"},{"start":715.114,"end":734.074,"text":"那明明這個就是大家很關心而且這也是立法院這好幾個委員包含我在內我們都希望說能夠盡速的看到行政院的這個法案可是你們一直拖一直拖就算是你人是總處這裡算是有在合乎的期間之內提案那為什麼行政院一直拖拖拉拉"},{"start":735.424,"end":752.914,"text":"都沒有要排定審案行政院有它綜合的考量因為每一個禮拜開了宴會要審查的法案事實上非常多尤其最近又加入所謂的台美的關稅相關的議題所以我想它會有一套機制去排序這個排議程也不是人事長您的全責但是我這邊只是要講就是有關於軍公教"},{"start":763.038,"end":777.59,"text":"待遇審議的法制化這也是我們一直都很重視的對不對然後希望你們提案你們也不提那你們是不是應該要這個盡數在你們人事總之至少公告先預告你們的草案內容是什麼有預告過了後來呢後來的修正版本呢是不是可以請你們這個今天會後提供一份你們的這個送到行政院的公告草案給我"},{"start":788.157,"end":813.659,"text":"我這裡可以答應委員啦我們會再跟行政院拜託看看盡快排錄連我們立法委員們都不可以知道你們到底提了什麼內容嗎我們那個資料會送給委員啦這也是個秘密的資訊就是了沒有沒有 這個公開的所以我這個本席要求今天會後你們在明天就可以把你們送到行政院的版本"},{"start":814.74,"end":840.62,"text":"條文 你說只有八條嘛 送一份給本席或是這個司委會的委員們做參考這的話我們現在不少的一直等待下去這是當時我們對你們的要求你們沒有做到嘛那另外針對於這個政務人員奉請法制化的問題這也是一個目前在法制上面的一個空白的一塊"},{"start":842.813,"end":871.004,"text":"我們現在政務人員的諷解是規定在哪裡我們有相關專法嗎就是我們現在對於總統副總統有一個專法但是政務人員現在沒有一個專法所以是規定在哪裡呢所以我們現在政務人員的諷解是怎麼給是依照什麼樣子的規定去"},{"start":872.116,"end":900.787,"text":"合給他是根據那個行政院有一套已經實施很久內部的一個就是有一個複雜的一個內部的一個規定然後做每年在做年度調薪的時候就用那個方式來做有一個點數所以看起來就是不管是部長或是人事長都搞不清楚現在政務人員的縫緊是規定在哪裡是依照什麼樣子的辦法或是這個法令去合給"},{"start":902.968,"end":926.806,"text":"這是規定在全國軍公教員工待遇知己要點的第三項裡面其中有個政務人員給予是照附表1鎖定數額之給好 我要先講就是說這個也是名不正言不順你政務人員是跟軍公教人員就是不一樣啊他的退休撫恤你們都有定專法那麼為什麼政務人員的奉集法你們卻不提"},{"start":928.604,"end":955.996,"text":"這不應該是要把它提出來嗎中立法也說是軍公教人員跟政務人員不一樣也不能夠適用但是公務員服務法裡面卻又涵蓋了政務人員這個整個法制的體系是錯亂的我本行認為 權需不跟人走在這個地方你們都失職這不應該把它法制化弄清楚嗎"},{"start":960.069,"end":972.493,"text":"所以政務人員的薪水到現在為止就是用一個要點在規範要調高 調 調 調減這都是你們自己行政裁量權把立法權全部都晾在旁邊我認為這不是一個正常的做法任市長"},{"start":981.533,"end":1009.349,"text":"有可能順便提嗎 軍工匠人員奉集法制化然後呢 也另外再提出政務人員奉集法制化這個我們回去再演繹一下 好不好是 然後也希望是部長 至少在現行的制度底下考試院 權需部 他還是負責有關於政務人員的相關的法規啊不管您同不同意 但是現在就是如此"},{"start":1010.583,"end":1016.851,"text":"所以既然有了政務人員退府條例那政務人員的相關的其他的規範是不是也應該要一併提出"},{"start":1018.379,"end":1042.372,"text":"如果說是行政機關這麼消極這麼怠惰的話我們現在立法委員我們都非常努力很認真很積極我們會很迅速的提出相關的法案到時候你們還是得要配合辦理配合來審議不要又說是哎呀這個都跟我們這個我們當時都沒有參與啊我們都不表示意見然後法律通過之後又再提出申請釋憲說我們的法案是違憲我覺得這是極不負責任的態度"},{"start":1044.79,"end":1060.451,"text":"好 以上 OK也麻煩這個任市長不要忘記明天之前把我們剛剛講的你們送出去的軍公教的待遇審議辦法請一份給我好 謝謝好 謝翁委員那下一個我們請吳思堯"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":819,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時40分）主席好。有請銓敘部施部長。"],["主席：麻煩施部長。"],["翁委員曉玲：施部長好。我們今天討論的議題是有關於行政中立的議題，我們曉得整個公務人員行政中立法裡面其實並沒有包含規範政務人員的行政中立，我想這也是目前在整個行政中立法制裡面最缺乏的一塊。我想請教您，昨天賴清德總統曾經公開喊話說，讓我們一起來針對核三延役的公投投下不同意票，請問您認為賴總統說這句話有沒有違反行政中立？"],["施部長能傑：沒有。"],["翁委員曉玲：沒有，為什麼沒有？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，行政中立法裡面有規範的是選舉跟公投，大部分規範的是選舉，至於公投的部分，我想這個部分總統的態度，第一個，總統本來就不適用行政中立法，他當然沒有違反行政中立法的問題。"],["翁委員曉玲：那有沒有違反行政中立？"],["施部長能傑：他是代表他作為一個國家元首對一個公投的立場的宣示、他的一個政策態度。"],["翁委員曉玲：你認為作為一個國家元首、作為一個總統，他到底是代表誰？他講這句話，他是代表全中華民國，代表總統府這個機關，還是說今天是代表他個人的立場？"],["施部長能傑：我覺得是代表他是一個民選總統出來以後，他的政策的態度。"],["翁委員曉玲：民選總統的政策？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：這是立法院所提出來的公投，這不是總統所提出來的防禦性公投，所以今天他用總統的身分去講這樣子的話，這沒有妨害公投嗎？沒有妨害到公投的公平合理及投票行使嗎？"],["施部長能傑：我認為他是代表他作為一個總統宣示他的政策態度。"],["翁委員曉玲：我想這部分大概就是我跟部長意見最大的不同。總統昨天是在什麼場合說這句話的，他是在總統府說的嗎？"],["施部長能傑：他在民進黨中常會說的樣子。"],["翁委員曉玲：中常會是哪邊的中常會？"],["施部長能傑：是民進黨的中常會。"],["翁委員曉玲：民進黨的中常會？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：這就是我要講的，如果今天他是作為一個民進黨的黨主席，他去說這句話，我沒有意見，但是如果他今天作為一個總統，他說這句話就顯不適當。可是從施部長您剛剛的回答裡面，我認為您對於一個國家、機關重要的職務，他利用他職務的名器對外發言，他到底代表的是誰？這樣子的一個觀念，我覺得您跟我們一般法界、學界的想法是完全不同的。總統是一個國家的名器，他利用這樣的職務對外說的話，他是代表全中華民國的人民。您知道現在民調有多少民眾是支持核三延役的嗎？"],["施部長能傑：我不清楚。"],["翁委員曉玲：您不清楚，所以代表您平常都沒有在關心時事，都不曉得我們民間意見的趨勢。我告訴您，已經有好幾個不同的民調機構都顯示，大概有六成到七成的民眾是支持核三延役的，所以今天總統他講這句話，他到底代表的是誰的意見，是他個人的意見嗎？還是民進黨的意見？如果他今天是代表總統的意見，說實在話，我認為這就是嚴重違反行政中立，雖然在我們現在的行政中立法裡面，你們可以講說，確實我們今天的公務人員行政中立法是不規範政務人員的，但是你們自己也有講到，公務人員的長官也應該要遵守公務人員行政中立法，你們自己的解釋函都這麼說。"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告，那是他不能夠指示部屬做違反行政中立法的行為。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，所以就代表，只有政務人員的長官、部會首長、總統、院長可以違反行政中立，但他的下屬不可以違反行政中立，我覺得這樣子的說法對於一般的社會大眾來講是無法接受的。"],["施部長能傑：委員，我跟您報告，對於行政中立這個名詞每個人見解不一樣，我尊重你的想法，但是根據行政中立法，行政中立的講法是指積極性的參與政治活動。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以剛剛總統說的那句話沒有屬於政治活動的範疇嗎？"],["施部長能傑：這是屬於他的政策的一個言論。"],["翁委員曉玲：這是屬於政策還是屬於政治活動的言論，我覺得這個部分真的是要搞清楚，這也是為什麼大家現在對於行政中立要把它法制化，公務人員行政中立法對於公務人員要參與政治活動或是選舉、公投相關的活動範圍其實都做了非常嚴格的規範，但是反而對於政務人員，從總統以降的這些部會首長，都是輕輕地放過、輕輕地帶過，他們嚴重違反行政中立，也都認為沒有違反行政中立，我們已經很多次希望銓敘部能夠趕快去立法，不管是修法或是制定專法，你總是要有個態度啊！但是我在今年5月份的時候有請銓敘部給我一份資料，就請你們去研析到底現在世界各國裡面，對於政務人員行政中立的相關法制規範情形如何，結果你們給我的各國制度比較研析報告裡面，第一個，我看了基本上就是一個非常簡單、也沒有什麼深入研究的報告；第二個就是從你們的報告裡面，你們到底是希望未來應該要像加拿大一致，就政務人員的職務本身就是屬於政治性質，所以他就可以從事政黨活動，也不管他是不是上下班時間，還是說應該像美國、日本、德國、英國一樣，基本上採取比較嚴格的標準，在非政務職務的身分底下或是非執行職務的時候才可以參與政黨活動以及表達政黨立場。現在銓敘部的態度是什麼？"],["施部長能傑：我想委員當初有要求我們就一些其他國家的現行規範給委員會做一個報告，我們也務實地去做了這個事情，也把相關的規定……我想細部的條文當然沒有放在上面，我們整理也跟委員會做過報告，那我們的態度是說，政務人員基本上跟公務人員的本質就是非常不一樣，如果說你要對政務人員的某些行為做規範，那是屬於立法跟行政權的立法政策議題。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以銓敘部不準備提案修法？"],["施部長能傑：因為根據憲法，銓敘部不應該管政務人員。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，所以你認為從現行的角度來講，政務人員的相關法制不是屬於你們銓敘部、考試院的權責，那政務人員的退撫條例是誰定的？"],["施部長能傑：我想如果委員可以多了解政務人員當初立法的背景，一開始考試院也是不樂意的。"],["翁委員曉玲：我現在要講，政務人員退休撫卹條例的主管機關是哪個機關？"],["施部長能傑：現在是考試院沒有錯。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以既然你們都已經規定了、都已經承擔了政務人員的退休撫卹條例，作為它的主管機關，然後你們也提案，那為什麼針對政務人員中立法，你們又撇得一乾二淨，說這不是你的責任？你們這樣的講法，大家能夠接受嗎？社會大眾能夠接受嗎？我覺得這是一個問題。"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告，基本還是回到憲法最上位的觀點，我想憲法明白講考試院主管公務人員，政務人員是高度政治性，不是只有中央政府有，各級政府都有政務人員，所以這是一個非常複雜的議題，適不適合由考試院來做主管，我想這真的是……"],["翁委員曉玲：但是就實務上來講、就現實的上面來講，我們現在已經從憲法的解釋來講……"],["施部長能傑：現行的實務上……"],["翁委員曉玲：而且實務作法來說，你們也已經承擔了去制定政務人員撫卹條例的一些重要立法提案的責任……"],["施部長能傑：我想我跟委員報告過，從立法的背景，如果從早期的立法背景去了解的話並不是……"],["翁委員曉玲：現在的背景並沒有改變太多，好，這個議題我不再跟您爭執，因為我想這個很重要，就是銓敘部、考試院如果怠惰、不準備提案，我們立法委員會主動地提案，就先謝謝您，施部長。"],["施部長能傑：謝謝委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：我接下來要請教人總，請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，人事長您好。我直接了當地問，請問2026年軍公教會調薪嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告一下，我們這個禮拜一有找公教協會的同仁來開會，在會議上他們都有表達他的期待，然後我們最近會再開公教人員審議委員會，開完會以後，我們會儘快把結論送到行政院。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你們現在初步的方向是什麼？8月21號的院會之前，你們就會底定嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：目前朝這個方向努力。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以是樂觀，還是不可能加薪？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個我沒辦法答復，因為決定權會在行政院這裡，我們只是專業幕僚，會把大家的意見綜整。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你們是專業幕僚，你們應該就要提出專業的意見，從明年的物價、通膨、各方面來看，是不是軍公教目前的待遇狀況都還是屬於中下偏低了，也就是說跟其他產業界裡面的薪資相比，我們是不是還是偏低？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我想我們會從幾個構面，剛才委員提的CPI是其中一個，還有經濟成長率的問題，還有GDP的問題，還有民間薪資的問題，還有國家財政，基本上會從這五大構面裡面，我們會綜整一個參考的數據……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，了解了，反正總之就是人事長你現在不敢把你們人事總處的意見清楚表達出來，接下來我要……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：會議還沒有開，我們怎麼表達？"],["翁委員曉玲：可是你們應該已經有一個專業的意見了，從你們人總的角度來看。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有，我們還要再開一次委員會。"],["翁委員曉玲：OK，總之我就期待會有個好的消息。接下來我要問的就是，其實在今年大概3、4月的時候，還是4、5月，我就已經請教過人事長你們到底對於軍公教待遇審議法制化的作業進行到什麼程度，我還記得您那時候說你們人總已經提出了草案送行政院，行政院7月底就會公布，結果呢？到現在都已經8月中了。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告……"],["翁委員曉玲：我們連個影子都沒看到。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：整個法制化的條文總共有8條，然後行政院所有的程序都走了，現在等於就是在等待把這個案子排到行政院院會，當行政院院會通過以後會送大院審查。"],["翁委員曉玲：明明這個就是大家很關心，而且這也是立法院好幾個委員，包含我在內，我們都希望能夠儘速看到行政院這個法案，可是你們一直拖、一直拖，就算是你人事總處這裡有在合乎的期間之內提案，那為什麼行政院一直拖拖拉拉，都沒有要排進審案？是因為行政院長完全不重視軍公教嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我想行政院有它綜合的考量，因為每一個禮拜開的院會要審查的法案事實上非常多，尤其最近又加入所謂的臺美關稅相關的議題，所以我想它會有一套機制去queue、去排序。"],["翁委員曉玲：好啦，當然啦，排議程也不是人事長您的權責，但是我這邊只是要講，有關於軍公教待遇審議的法制化，這也是我們一直都很重視的，對不對？然後希望你們提案，你們也不提，那你們是不是應該要儘速在你們人事總處至少公告，先預告你們的草案內容是什麼，讓大家可以知道？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有預告啊，預告過了。"],["翁委員曉玲：預告過了，後來呢？後來的修正版本呢？是不是可以請你們今天會後提供一份你們送到行政院的公告草案給我？我想這個部分是很重要。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我這裡可以答應委員，我們會再跟行政院拜託看看儘快排入。"],["翁委員曉玲：是怎麼樣？是連我們立法委員們都不可以知道你們到底提了什麼內容嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們那個資料會送給委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：我們可能還必須要了解，這也是一個秘密的資訊就是了？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有、沒有、沒有、沒有，這個是公開的。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以本席要求今天會後，你們在明天就可以把你們送到行政院的版本條文，你說只有8條嘛！送一份給本席或是司委會的委員們做參考，否則的話，我們現在不曉得，一直等待下去，這是當時我們對你們的要求，你們沒有做到嘛！","另外，針對於政務人員俸給法制化的問題，這也是目前在法制上面空白的一塊，現在政務人員的俸給是規定在哪裡，我們有相關專法嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：就是……"],["施部長能傑：我們現在對於總統、副總統有一個專法，但是政務人員現在沒有一個專法。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，是規定在哪裡呢？所以現在政務人員的俸給是怎麼給，是依照什麼樣子的規定去核給？"],["施部長能傑：是根據行政院有一套已經實施很久一個內部複雜的規定，然後每年做年度調薪的時候就用那個方式來做，有一個點數。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以看起來不管是部長或人事長，你們都搞不清楚現在政務人員的俸給是規定在哪裡、是依照什麼樣子的辦法或是法令去核給，對不對？這是規定在全國軍公教員工待遇支給要點的第三項裡面，其中有政務人員的給與是照附表一所定數額支給。"],["施部長能傑：沒有錯。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我要講，這個也是名不正言不順，政務人員跟軍公教人員就是不一樣，他的退休、撫卹，你們都有定專法，為什麼政務人員的俸給法你們卻不提，這不應該是要把它提出來嗎？對不對？中立法也說軍公教人員跟政務人員不一樣，也不能夠適用，但是公務員服務法裡面卻又涵蓋了政務人員，整個法制的體系是錯亂的，對不對？本席認為銓敘部跟人總在這個地方你們都失職耶！這不應該把它法制化、弄清楚嗎？所以政務人員的薪水到現在為止就是用一個要點在規範，要調高、調減都是你們自己行政裁量權，把立法權全部都晾在旁邊，我認為這不是一個正常的作法，人事長，有可能順便提嗎？軍公教人員俸給法制化，然後也另外再提出政務人員俸給法制化。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個我們回去再研議一下，好不好？"],["翁委員曉玲：是。然後也希望施部長，至少在現行的制度底下，考試院銓敘部還是負責有關於政務人員的相關法規，不管您同不同意，但是現在就是如此，所以既然有了政務人員退撫條例，那政務人員其他相關規範是不是也應該要一併提出？如果行政機關這麼消極、這麼怠惰的話，我們現在立法委員都非常努力、很認真、很積極，我們會很迅速地提出相關的法案，到時候你們還是得要配合辦理、配合來審議，不要又說這個你們當時沒有參與、你們都不表示意見，然後法律通過之後又再提出聲請釋憲，說我們的法案是違憲，我覺得這是極不負責任的態度，以上。","也麻煩人事長，不要忘記明天之前把我們剛剛講的，就是你們送出去的軍公教待遇審議辦法請提供一份給我，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝翁委員。下一位請吳思瑤委員發言。今天會議的時間持續進行到所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止。","請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-24","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","莊瑞雄","林倩綺","陳培瑜","沈發惠","羅智強","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","陳冠廷","吳沛憶","王鴻薇"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2025-08-14"],"gazette_id":"1147302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147302_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請銓敘部部長、行政院人事行政總處人事長、中央選舉委員會主任委員、法務部廉政署署\n長、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「政務人員應否及如何遵守行政中立原\n則、行政機關於選舉罷免期間應為如何之宣導與落實」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、併案審查\n(一)考試院函請審議「公務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員邱志偉等21人擬具\n「公務人員考績法第三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「公務人員考績法第十\n二條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「公務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」\n案、( 五) 委員范雲等17 人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條、第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案」\n案；三、併案審查(一)委員傅崐萁等25人、(二)委員郭昱晴等18人分別擬具「刑事訴訟法第七十\n一條及第一百七十五條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1147302_00005"}}}