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\"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 694.114, \"end\": 694.134, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"組\"}, {\"word\": \"織\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 695.194, \"end\": 695.374, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 695.374, \"end\": 695.474, \"score\": 0.784}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 695.474, \"end\": 695.594, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 695.594, \"end\": 696.055, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 696.055, \"end\": 696.195, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 696.195, \"end\": 696.215, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"請\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:15,723 --> 00:00:42,013\n主席在場委員先進列車政府主管所長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生先有請我們司法院的理聽長和法務部的黃次長黃次長以及刑事警察局的蔡坤毅蔡警政監警政監委員好好聽長好次長好還有我們刑事警察局的還沒有到\n\n2\n00:00:48,685 --> 00:01:10,727\n來我先請我們蔡警政監是委員好你在刑事警察局你們刑事警察局負責打詐嘛是你覺得詐騙嚴不嚴重詐騙蠻嚴重的好來謝謝來次長您覺得一般國人的感受對於詐騙這個事情普遍的一個不滿在哪裡\n\n3\n00:01:12,406 --> 00:01:35,416\n就是無端遭受經濟上損失遭受經濟上損失還有一個就是認為啊抓到判得太輕你覺得目前這些經濟犯罪詐欺犯被查獲後目前被起訴良刑覺得有沒有看到很多報導民眾的反應我不是說是不是太輕你覺得民眾是不是常常發出這樣的聲音\n\n4\n00:01:36,622 --> 00:02:01,293\n我想這個是常見於爆炸媒體報導的一個說法好那麼我們知道詐欺它是個經濟犯罪經濟犯罪跟其他的經濟行為很像將本求利它其實它會去算它的成本其中一個很重要的犯罪成本最後端就是被抓到的風險以抓到後判刑的長短是不是這樣對好來請教廳長最近我們看到有那些車手\n\n5\n00:02:02,403 --> 00:02:31,863\n被起訴之後法院一般認為說被害人為判太輕了車手都判幾個月甚至好幾個案子判了後放出來又再犯又再被輕重廳長你有沒有聽到這樣的一個民眾反應有為什麼我今天特別來問這個問題我們財政委員上個星期我們到幾家銀行去考察他們的零貴主詐的成效結果在場很多媒體就私下跟我反應說判太輕了但是我要說的是說\n\n6\n00:02:33,224 --> 00:02:52,443\n判刑的長短他只是一個他的犯罪成本前面還有很多階段他要投入的成本我們主詐防詐包括就是打詐就是要把他的犯罪成本高到他覺得投資報酬不划算是不是這樣子我非常贊同委員的意見\n\n7\n00:02:54,969 --> 00:03:13,601\n對於詐騙的打擊這個部分除了要提高他的犯罪成本之外事實上前端的肆詐堵詐還有阻詐這個部分就是說增加了犯罪的障礙或是提高犯罪障礙的部分可以減少犯罪率\n\n8\n00:03:14,421 --> 00:03:40,199\n是我知道我們今天很理性的討論我們都可以理解在場聽的也可以接受但是一般民眾啊他只能看到的是什麼都被抓到了還判那麼輕這就是一般民眾的痛我們做再多前面再多讓詐團讓詐欺案件下降都抵不過最後這個判刑的輕重可不可以請您跟司法院這邊反映一下這是普遍民眾為什麼得了司法不公或者持來的正義不是正義這種感受可以帶回反應嗎\n\n9\n00:03:41,379 --> 00:03:57,766\n這個沒有問題但是我在這邊也可以澄清一下我們從113年有做了一些相關的量刑跟引導的一些作為包括所謂的量刑行情的系統還有一些加重詐欺的量刑的審酌事項或是參考表\n\n10\n00:03:58,526 --> 00:04:23,431\n這些我們可以從113年的量刑的量刑的統計跟到114年的量刑統計我們發現了一個趨勢就是我們已經有慢慢的引導法官對適當的量刑在一年以上的量刑比例從以前的大概六成現在提高到七成以上我大概理解了但是你看你今天講我還是第一次聽到所以我們希望司法院要加強對這個部分讓民眾理解\n\n11\n00:04:26,212 --> 00:04:46,589\n打詐不是只有行政院的事情司法院法官們也共同的感受到民眾對這個的痛好不好那另外一個事情持來的正義不是正義台版柬埔寨案他雖然出發點是經濟犯罪但是最後是一個暴力的家豬被害人甚至死亡這個案子您知道已經在台中地院審理多久了嗎\n\n12\n00:04:48,292 --> 00:05:15,954\n兩年多了而且到現在呢這些共同背後很多我們知道案情很複雜但是有更多的這些受害人將近十位的受害人到現在其中一個在屏東這兩年多來他常接到船票舟車勞頓心中的畏恐懼傷害還沒平復這個部分是不是在審理相關的詐欺或者相關暴力犯罪的進度您會不會覺得可以再讓民眾感覺到我們司法院司法正義有在幫助人民\n\n13\n00:05:16,838 --> 00:05:40,535\n這個的確我們有在精進的地方這個個案我雖然我通常不談案但是這個個案我特別要提出因為台版柬埔寨讓台灣的民眾真的shock希望未來在審理上能夠趕快還給受害者一個公道好嗎好謝謝請回來接下來呢我要再請教一下我們要請我們的來詐騙手法現在請次長還有我們警政署先生警察局\n\n14\n00:05:41,714 --> 00:06:10,869\n詐騙手法層出不窮什麼都有買票買演唱會的票啊然後點去投資啦連齊交所都有好那往下看那麼現在呢我們所謂的行政院的新世代打擊詐欺策略行動法務部是其中一部分嘛對不對內政部警政署行政警察也是嘛我們看到的最低的時候是在哪裡114年今年2月的時候那時候我們宣布了一個網路社群平台廣告實名制馬上呢案件量就下降\n\n15\n00:06:12,216 --> 00:06:28,826\n那個金額呢損失金額也下降但是過沒多久又開始跑上來了我們次長你覺得是不是打詐不可能一個招數就有辦法有效是不是要持續的對於詐團是以施壓反制他是不是這樣子次長\n\n16\n00:06:29,451 --> 00:06:59,037\n我想我們都一直持續的在精進好我們的打仗的作為所以不是只有一招就可以停了還是會起來好往下看現在我們看到的呢現在目前民眾所習慣的就是165專線嘛是不是蔡警政監這是行政警察局的嘛是的他是一個常設的編制嗎目前他是辦公廳設在寶一裡面然後呢人員來自哪裡人員目前其實他本來是任務編組是架在炸防中心\n\n17\n00:06:59,557 --> 00:07:21,438\n那炸防中心是編制嗎市政是編制嗎也是任務編組那行政院呢行政院的炸防辦也是任務編組所以拜託我們次長我們警政署所有民眾關心的打炸他必須要持之以恆的去進行所以你們是不是支持炸器犯罪防治中心的組織化又法制化\n\n18\n00:07:24,379 --> 00:07:39,353\n好那我們要來請教一下有兩個部長很重要一個是全區部部長一個是人事總署來人事長來請請教兩位是不是也支持我們民眾最關切的打詐需要給他有足夠的力量持續的來做這個事情\n\n19\n00:07:40,972 --> 00:07:55,260\n這個大概過去這一兩年刑事警察局跟我們提我們一直很支持只是說他內部的分工的問題好我後續會問所以你是支持的那行政院支持那我們那個考試院那個詮釋部\n\n20\n00:07:56,921 --> 00:08:16,270\n現在這個案子到你們那裡了嗎這個案子還沒但是過程有一些大家交互問過一些意見我們全區府一向的態度是行政院因為這次要不要設置一個行政院政策設了以後剩下就主編的部分我們一定會協助來處理好我們希望能夠在九月的時候完成但是我們要請刑事警察局了解一下來刑事警察局\n\n21\n00:08:17,230 --> 00:08:22,616\n你們刑事警察局是幾級機關啊四級機關但是你們四級機關底下有37個內部單位來根據我們你們還要再增設一個這個防炸中心已經37個了你還要再增設\n\n22\n00:08:34,268 --> 00:08:53,870\n讓我們看到說那組織是不是要檢討呢根據我們中央行政機關組織基準法第10條階段性任務已經完成或政策已改變者或者說業務或功能明顯萎縮重點者你們有沒有盤點過這37個有沒有哪一個可以節省掉讓我們放資源到打炸中心的你們有沒有做個檢討\n\n23\n00:08:56,207 --> 00:09:10,300\n這個部分因為我的這個夜館不是這個部分那我是有參加相關會議有聽到這個應該聽到誰說就是我們還有包括聽到我們人長說來人長講一下你覺得呢行政警察局有沒有好好的去做根據第10條來進行這樣的一個檢討\n\n24\n00:09:12,745 --> 00:09:36,591\n他們都有很多的考量所以這個事情就磨很久現在等於我們8月6號已經把案子簽到行政院那就誠如委員所提的大概目標看能不能9月就到前序部用意別拖啦但是你們在過程中也有提到這個部分嘛刑事警察局應該要檢討一下自己的底下\n\n25\n00:09:38,552 --> 00:10:01,250\n因為分工太細溝通成本太高稍微整併一下整個刑事警察局對他們來講是一個很好的事情然後第二件事情就是為了打詐而成立的單位我想剛才委員的數據資料也可以呈現說一年的詐騙案件多少我相信應該在\n\n26\n00:10:03,231 --> 00:10:23,336\n所有部會努力下應該兩年內應該案件量會往下嘛當案件量往下的時候就是委員所提的業務後功能明顯萎縮的時候那個組織應該也要做一些調整所以你的意思是說阿總怕沒得吃藥肥腸好藥就不用吃阿不吃藥會對身體有傷阿但是阿總藥吃得不好身體不好這個藥也不要吃是不是這樣\n\n27\n00:10:29,697 --> 00:10:48,199\n吃得好就不用吃吃得不好就不要吃是不是這樣所以來那個行政警察局的蔡警政監你聽到請你回去帶給警政署帶給行政警察局我們希望支持你們成立常態化的組織編制但是要定期檢討如果沒有效果我們就回到我們的組織經典好不好\n\n28\n00:10:48,760 --> 00:11:15,787\n好那最後呢我這邊還要請一下我們的次長來我們也分享一下過去我們有一個國民法官法它這裡面呢立法在通過的時候對於國民參與審判的制度我們就訂了一個六年的一個評估每年要出一個報告六年後要提個總結報告再決定國民法官制度要不要繼續走下去是不是有這樣的一個規定是好來廳長那你覺得司法院未來會不會到期後也來檢討一下到底這樣的制度有好\n\n29\n00:11:20,288 --> 00:11:34,134\n成效評估委員會的成立本來就是這樣的目的是嗎所以我這裡就說所以我們請人事長我們請那個權序部這邊我們的結論就是我們盡速推動刑事警察局詐欺防罪防治中心組織\n\n30\n00:11:35,194 --> 00:11:36,215\n好謝謝那我們下一位請\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n15723\t42013\t主席在場委員先進列車政府主管所長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生先有請我們司法院的理聽長和法務部的黃次長黃次長以及刑事警察局的蔡坤毅蔡警政監警政監委員好好 聽長好 次長好還有我們刑事警察局的還沒有到\n48685\t70727\t來 我先請我們蔡警政監是 委員好你在刑事警察局你們刑事警察局負責打詐嘛是你覺得詐騙嚴不嚴重詐騙蠻嚴重的好 來 謝謝來 次長您覺得一般國人的感受對於詐騙這個事情普遍的一個不滿在哪裡\n72406\t95416\t就是無端遭受經濟上損失遭受經濟上損失還有一個就是認為啊抓到判得太輕你覺得目前這些經濟犯罪詐欺犯被查獲後目前被起訴良刑覺得有沒有看到很多報導民眾的反應我不是說是不是太輕你覺得民眾是不是常常發出這樣的聲音\n96622\t121293\t我想這個是常見於爆炸媒體報導的一個說法好 那麼我們知道詐欺它是個經濟犯罪經濟犯罪跟其他的經濟行為很像將本求利它其實它會去算它的成本其中一個很重要的犯罪成本最後端就是被抓到的風險以抓到後判刑的長短 是不是這樣對好 來 請教廳長最近我們看到有那些車手\n122403\t151863\t被起訴之後法院一般認為說被害人為判太輕了車手都判幾個月甚至好幾個案子判了後放出來又再犯又再被輕重廳長你有沒有聽到這樣的一個民眾反應有為什麼我今天特別來問這個問題我們財政委員上個星期我們到幾家銀行去考察他們的零貴主詐的成效結果在場很多媒體就私下跟我反應說判太輕了但是我要說的是說\n153224\t172443\t判刑的長短他只是一個他的犯罪成本前面還有很多階段他要投入的成本我們主詐防詐包括就是打詐就是要把他的犯罪成本高到他覺得投資報酬不划算是不是這樣子我非常贊同委員的意見\n174969\t193601\t對於詐騙的打擊這個部分 除了要提高他的犯罪成本之外事實上前端的肆詐 堵詐 還有阻詐這個部分就是說增加了犯罪的障礙 或是提高犯罪障礙的部分可以減少犯罪率\n194421\t220199\t是 我知道我們今天很理性的討論我們都可以理解在場聽的也可以接受但是一般民眾啊他只能看到的是什麼都被抓到了還判那麼輕這就是一般民眾的痛我們做再多前面再多讓詐團 讓詐欺案件下降都抵不過最後這個判刑的輕重可不可以請您跟司法院這邊反映一下這是普遍民眾為什麼得了司法不公或者持來的正義不是正義這種感受可以帶回反應嗎\n221379\t237766\t這個沒有問題但是我在這邊也可以澄清一下我們從113年有做了一些相關的量刑跟引導的一些作為包括所謂的量刑行情的系統還有一些加重詐欺的量刑的審酌事項或是參考表\n238526\t263431\t這些我們可以從113年的量刑的量刑的統計跟到114年的量刑統計我們發現了一個趨勢就是我們已經有慢慢的引導法官對適當的量刑在一年以上的量刑比例從以前的大概六成現在提高到七成以上我大概理解了但是你看你今天講我還是第一次聽到所以我們希望司法院要加強對這個部分讓民眾理解\n266212\t286589\t打詐不是只有行政院的事情司法院法官們也共同的感受到民眾對這個的痛好不好那另外一個事情持來的正義不是正義台版柬埔寨案他雖然出發點是經濟犯罪但是最後是一個暴力的家豬被害人甚至死亡這個案子您知道已經在台中地院審理多久了嗎\n288292\t315954\t兩年多了而且到現在呢這些共同背後很多我們知道案情很複雜但是有更多的這些受害人將近十位的受害人到現在其中一個在屏東這兩年多來他常接到船票舟車勞頓心中的畏恐懼傷害還沒平復這個部分是不是在審理相關的詐欺或者相關暴力犯罪的進度您會不會覺得可以再讓民眾感覺到我們司法院司法正義有在幫助人民\n316838\t340535\t這個的確我們有在精進的地方這個個案我雖然我通常不談案但是這個個案我特別要提出因為台版柬埔寨讓台灣的民眾真的shock希望未來在審理上能夠趕快還給受害者一個公道好嗎好 謝謝 請回來 接下來呢我要再請教一下我們要請我們的來 詐騙手法 現在請次長還有我們警政署先生 警察局\n341714\t370869\t詐騙手法層出不窮什麼都有 買票 買演唱會的票啊然後點去投資啦連齊交所都有好 那往下看那麼現在呢 我們所謂的行政院的新世代打擊詐欺策略行動法務部是其中一部分嘛 對不對內政部警政署 行政警察也是嘛我們看到的最低的時候是在哪裡114年今年2月的時候那時候我們宣布了一個網路社群平台廣告實名制馬上呢 案件量就下降\n372216\t388826\t那個金額呢 損失金額也下降但是過沒多久又開始跑上來了我們 次長你覺得是不是打詐不可能一個招數就有辦法有效是不是要持續的對於詐團是以施壓反制他 是不是這樣子 次長\n389451\t419037\t我想我們都一直持續的在精進好我們的打仗的作為所以不是只有一招就可以停了還是會起來好往下看現在我們看到的呢現在目前民眾所習慣的就是165專線嘛是不是蔡警政監這是行政警察局的嘛是的他是一個常設的編制嗎目前他是辦公廳設在寶一裡面然後呢人員來自哪裡人員目前其實他本來是任務編組是架在炸防中心\n419557\t441438\t那炸防中心是編制嗎市政是編制嗎也是任務編組那行政院呢行政院的炸防辦也是任務編組所以拜託我們次長我們警政署所有民眾關心的打炸他必須要持之以恆的去進行所以你們是不是支持炸器犯罪防治中心的組織化又法制化\n444379\t459353\t好 那我們要來請教一下有兩個部長很重要一個是全區部部長一個是人事總署來 人事長來 請請教兩位是不是也支持我們民眾最關切的打詐需要給他有足夠的力量持續的來做這個事情\n460972\t475260\t這個大概過去這一兩年刑事警察局跟我們提我們一直很支持只是說他內部的分工的問題好我後續會問所以你是支持的那行政院支持那我們那個考試院那個詮釋部\n476921\t496270\t現在這個案子到你們那裡了嗎這個案子還沒 但是過程有一些大家交互問過一些意見我們全區府一向的態度是行政院因為這次要不要設置一個行政院政策設了以後剩下就主編的部分我們一定會協助來處理好 我們希望能夠在九月的時候完成但是我們要請刑事警察局了解一下來 刑事警察局\n497230\t502616\t你們刑事警察局是幾級機關啊四級機關但是你們四級機關底下有37個內部單位來 根據我們你們還要再增設一個這個防炸中心已經37個了 你還要再增設\n514268\t533870\t讓我們看到說那組織是不是要檢討呢根據我們中央行政機關組織基準法第10條階段性任務已經完成或政策已改變者或者說業務或功能明顯萎縮重點者你們有沒有盤點過這37個有沒有哪一個可以節省掉讓我們放資源到打炸中心的你們有沒有做個檢討\n536207\t550300\t這個部分因為我的這個夜館不是這個部分那我是有參加相關會議有聽到這個應該聽到誰說就是我們還有包括聽到我們人長說來人長講一下你覺得呢行政警察局有沒有好好的去做根據第10條來進行這樣的一個檢討\n552745\t576591\t他們都有很多的考量所以這個事情就磨很久現在等於我們8月6號已經把案子簽到行政院那就誠如委員所提的大概目標看能不能9月就到前序部用意 別拖啦但是你們在過程中也有提到這個部分嘛刑事警察局應該要檢討一下自己的底下\n578552\t601250\t因為分工太細 溝通成本太高稍微整併一下整個刑事警察局對他們來講是一個很好的事情然後第二件事情就是為了打詐而成立的單位我想剛才委員的數據資料也可以呈現說一年的詐騙案件多少我相信應該在\n603231\t623336\t所有部會努力下 應該兩年內應該案件量會往下嘛當案件量往下的時候 就是委員所提的業務後功能明顯萎縮的時候那個組織應該也要做一些調整所以你的意思是說 阿總怕沒得吃藥 肥腸好 藥就不用吃阿不吃藥會對身體有傷阿但是阿總藥吃得不好 身體不好 這個藥也不要吃 是不是這樣\n629697\t648199\t吃得好就不用吃吃得不好就不要吃是不是這樣所以來那個行政警察局的蔡警政監你聽到請你回去帶給警政署帶給行政警察局我們希望支持你們成立常態化的組織編制但是要定期檢討如果沒有效果我們就回到我們的組織經典好不好\n648760\t675787\t好 那最後呢 我這邊還要請一下我們的次長來 我們也分享一下過去我們有一個國民法官法它這裡面呢 立法在通過的時候對於國民參與審判的制度我們就訂了一個六年的一個評估每年要出一個報告六年後要提個總結報告再決定國民法官制度要不要繼續走下去是不是有這樣的一個規定是好 來 廳長那你覺得司法院未來會不會到期後也來檢討一下到底這樣的制度有好\n680288\t694134\t成效評估委員會的成立本來就是這樣的目的是嗎所以我這裡就說所以我們請人事長我們請那個權序部這邊我們的結論就是我們盡速推動刑事警察局詐欺防罪防治中心組織\n695194\t696215\t好 謝謝那我們下一位請\n","txt":"主席在場委員先進列車政府主管所長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生先有請我們司法院的理聽長和法務部的黃次長黃次長以及刑事警察局的蔡坤毅蔡警政監警政監委員好好 聽長好 次長好還有我們刑事警察局的還沒有到\n來 我先請我們蔡警政監是 委員好你在刑事警察局你們刑事警察局負責打詐嘛是你覺得詐騙嚴不嚴重詐騙蠻嚴重的好 來 謝謝來 次長您覺得一般國人的感受對於詐騙這個事情普遍的一個不滿在哪裡\n就是無端遭受經濟上損失遭受經濟上損失還有一個就是認為啊抓到判得太輕你覺得目前這些經濟犯罪詐欺犯被查獲後目前被起訴良刑覺得有沒有看到很多報導民眾的反應我不是說是不是太輕你覺得民眾是不是常常發出這樣的聲音\n我想這個是常見於爆炸媒體報導的一個說法好 那麼我們知道詐欺它是個經濟犯罪經濟犯罪跟其他的經濟行為很像將本求利它其實它會去算它的成本其中一個很重要的犯罪成本最後端就是被抓到的風險以抓到後判刑的長短 是不是這樣對好 來 請教廳長最近我們看到有那些車手\n被起訴之後法院一般認為說被害人為判太輕了車手都判幾個月甚至好幾個案子判了後放出來又再犯又再被輕重廳長你有沒有聽到這樣的一個民眾反應有為什麼我今天特別來問這個問題我們財政委員上個星期我們到幾家銀行去考察他們的零貴主詐的成效結果在場很多媒體就私下跟我反應說判太輕了但是我要說的是說\n判刑的長短他只是一個他的犯罪成本前面還有很多階段他要投入的成本我們主詐防詐包括就是打詐就是要把他的犯罪成本高到他覺得投資報酬不划算是不是這樣子我非常贊同委員的意見\n對於詐騙的打擊這個部分 除了要提高他的犯罪成本之外事實上前端的肆詐 堵詐 還有阻詐這個部分就是說增加了犯罪的障礙 或是提高犯罪障礙的部分可以減少犯罪率\n是 我知道我們今天很理性的討論我們都可以理解在場聽的也可以接受但是一般民眾啊他只能看到的是什麼都被抓到了還判那麼輕這就是一般民眾的痛我們做再多前面再多讓詐團 讓詐欺案件下降都抵不過最後這個判刑的輕重可不可以請您跟司法院這邊反映一下這是普遍民眾為什麼得了司法不公或者持來的正義不是正義這種感受可以帶回反應嗎\n這個沒有問題但是我在這邊也可以澄清一下我們從113年有做了一些相關的量刑跟引導的一些作為包括所謂的量刑行情的系統還有一些加重詐欺的量刑的審酌事項或是參考表\n這些我們可以從113年的量刑的量刑的統計跟到114年的量刑統計我們發現了一個趨勢就是我們已經有慢慢的引導法官對適當的量刑在一年以上的量刑比例從以前的大概六成現在提高到七成以上我大概理解了但是你看你今天講我還是第一次聽到所以我們希望司法院要加強對這個部分讓民眾理解\n打詐不是只有行政院的事情司法院法官們也共同的感受到民眾對這個的痛好不好那另外一個事情持來的正義不是正義台版柬埔寨案他雖然出發點是經濟犯罪但是最後是一個暴力的家豬被害人甚至死亡這個案子您知道已經在台中地院審理多久了嗎\n兩年多了而且到現在呢這些共同背後很多我們知道案情很複雜但是有更多的這些受害人將近十位的受害人到現在其中一個在屏東這兩年多來他常接到船票舟車勞頓心中的畏恐懼傷害還沒平復這個部分是不是在審理相關的詐欺或者相關暴力犯罪的進度您會不會覺得可以再讓民眾感覺到我們司法院司法正義有在幫助人民\n這個的確我們有在精進的地方這個個案我雖然我通常不談案但是這個個案我特別要提出因為台版柬埔寨讓台灣的民眾真的shock希望未來在審理上能夠趕快還給受害者一個公道好嗎好 謝謝 請回來 接下來呢我要再請教一下我們要請我們的來 詐騙手法 現在請次長還有我們警政署先生 警察局\n詐騙手法層出不窮什麼都有 買票 買演唱會的票啊然後點去投資啦連齊交所都有好 那往下看那麼現在呢 我們所謂的行政院的新世代打擊詐欺策略行動法務部是其中一部分嘛 對不對內政部警政署 行政警察也是嘛我們看到的最低的時候是在哪裡114年今年2月的時候那時候我們宣布了一個網路社群平台廣告實名制馬上呢 案件量就下降\n那個金額呢 損失金額也下降但是過沒多久又開始跑上來了我們 次長你覺得是不是打詐不可能一個招數就有辦法有效是不是要持續的對於詐團是以施壓反制他 是不是這樣子 次長\n我想我們都一直持續的在精進好我們的打仗的作為所以不是只有一招就可以停了還是會起來好往下看現在我們看到的呢現在目前民眾所習慣的就是165專線嘛是不是蔡警政監這是行政警察局的嘛是的他是一個常設的編制嗎目前他是辦公廳設在寶一裡面然後呢人員來自哪裡人員目前其實他本來是任務編組是架在炸防中心\n那炸防中心是編制嗎市政是編制嗎也是任務編組那行政院呢行政院的炸防辦也是任務編組所以拜託我們次長我們警政署所有民眾關心的打炸他必須要持之以恆的去進行所以你們是不是支持炸器犯罪防治中心的組織化又法制化\n好 那我們要來請教一下有兩個部長很重要一個是全區部部長一個是人事總署來 人事長來 請請教兩位是不是也支持我們民眾最關切的打詐需要給他有足夠的力量持續的來做這個事情\n這個大概過去這一兩年刑事警察局跟我們提我們一直很支持只是說他內部的分工的問題好我後續會問所以你是支持的那行政院支持那我們那個考試院那個詮釋部\n現在這個案子到你們那裡了嗎這個案子還沒 但是過程有一些大家交互問過一些意見我們全區府一向的態度是行政院因為這次要不要設置一個行政院政策設了以後剩下就主編的部分我們一定會協助來處理好 我們希望能夠在九月的時候完成但是我們要請刑事警察局了解一下來 刑事警察局\n你們刑事警察局是幾級機關啊四級機關但是你們四級機關底下有37個內部單位來 根據我們你們還要再增設一個這個防炸中心已經37個了 你還要再增設\n讓我們看到說那組織是不是要檢討呢根據我們中央行政機關組織基準法第10條階段性任務已經完成或政策已改變者或者說業務或功能明顯萎縮重點者你們有沒有盤點過這37個有沒有哪一個可以節省掉讓我們放資源到打炸中心的你們有沒有做個檢討\n這個部分因為我的這個夜館不是這個部分那我是有參加相關會議有聽到這個應該聽到誰說就是我們還有包括聽到我們人長說來人長講一下你覺得呢行政警察局有沒有好好的去做根據第10條來進行這樣的一個檢討\n他們都有很多的考量所以這個事情就磨很久現在等於我們8月6號已經把案子簽到行政院那就誠如委員所提的大概目標看能不能9月就到前序部用意 別拖啦但是你們在過程中也有提到這個部分嘛刑事警察局應該要檢討一下自己的底下\n因為分工太細 溝通成本太高稍微整併一下整個刑事警察局對他們來講是一個很好的事情然後第二件事情就是為了打詐而成立的單位我想剛才委員的數據資料也可以呈現說一年的詐騙案件多少我相信應該在\n所有部會努力下 應該兩年內應該案件量會往下嘛當案件量往下的時候 就是委員所提的業務後功能明顯萎縮的時候那個組織應該也要做一些調整所以你的意思是說 阿總怕沒得吃藥 肥腸好 藥就不用吃阿不吃藥會對身體有傷阿但是阿總藥吃得不好 身體不好 這個藥也不要吃 是不是這樣\n吃得好就不用吃吃得不好就不要吃是不是這樣所以來那個行政警察局的蔡警政監你聽到請你回去帶給警政署帶給行政警察局我們希望支持你們成立常態化的組織編制但是要定期檢討如果沒有效果我們就回到我們的組織經典好不好\n好 那最後呢 我這邊還要請一下我們的次長來 我們也分享一下過去我們有一個國民法官法它這裡面呢 立法在通過的時候對於國民參與審判的制度我們就訂了一個六年的一個評估每年要出一個報告六年後要提個總結報告再決定國民法官制度要不要繼續走下去是不是有這樣的一個規定是好 來 廳長那你覺得司法院未來會不會到期後也來檢討一下到底這樣的制度有好\n成效評估委員會的成立本來就是這樣的目的是嗎所以我這裡就說所以我們請人事長我們請那個權序部這邊我們的結論就是我們盡速推動刑事警察局詐欺防罪防治中心組織\n好 謝謝那我們下一位請\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:15.723 --> 00:42.013\n主席在場委員先進列車政府主管所長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生先有請我們司法院的理聽長和法務部的黃次長黃次長以及刑事警察局的蔡坤毅蔡警政監警政監委員好好聽長好次長好還有我們刑事警察局的還沒有到\n\n00:48.685 --> 01:10.727\n來我先請我們蔡警政監是委員好你在刑事警察局你們刑事警察局負責打詐嘛是你覺得詐騙嚴不嚴重詐騙蠻嚴重的好來謝謝來次長您覺得一般國人的感受對於詐騙這個事情普遍的一個不滿在哪裡\n\n01:12.406 --> 01:35.416\n就是無端遭受經濟上損失遭受經濟上損失還有一個就是認為啊抓到判得太輕你覺得目前這些經濟犯罪詐欺犯被查獲後目前被起訴良刑覺得有沒有看到很多報導民眾的反應我不是說是不是太輕你覺得民眾是不是常常發出這樣的聲音\n\n01:36.622 --> 02:01.293\n我想這個是常見於爆炸媒體報導的一個說法好那麼我們知道詐欺它是個經濟犯罪經濟犯罪跟其他的經濟行為很像將本求利它其實它會去算它的成本其中一個很重要的犯罪成本最後端就是被抓到的風險以抓到後判刑的長短是不是這樣對好來請教廳長最近我們看到有那些車手\n\n02:02.403 --> 02:31.863\n被起訴之後法院一般認為說被害人為判太輕了車手都判幾個月甚至好幾個案子判了後放出來又再犯又再被輕重廳長你有沒有聽到這樣的一個民眾反應有為什麼我今天特別來問這個問題我們財政委員上個星期我們到幾家銀行去考察他們的零貴主詐的成效結果在場很多媒體就私下跟我反應說判太輕了但是我要說的是說\n\n02:33.224 --> 02:52.443\n判刑的長短他只是一個他的犯罪成本前面還有很多階段他要投入的成本我們主詐防詐包括就是打詐就是要把他的犯罪成本高到他覺得投資報酬不划算是不是這樣子我非常贊同委員的意見\n\n02:54.969 --> 03:13.601\n對於詐騙的打擊這個部分除了要提高他的犯罪成本之外事實上前端的肆詐堵詐還有阻詐這個部分就是說增加了犯罪的障礙或是提高犯罪障礙的部分可以減少犯罪率\n\n03:14.421 --> 03:40.199\n是我知道我們今天很理性的討論我們都可以理解在場聽的也可以接受但是一般民眾啊他只能看到的是什麼都被抓到了還判那麼輕這就是一般民眾的痛我們做再多前面再多讓詐團讓詐欺案件下降都抵不過最後這個判刑的輕重可不可以請您跟司法院這邊反映一下這是普遍民眾為什麼得了司法不公或者持來的正義不是正義這種感受可以帶回反應嗎\n\n03:41.379 --> 03:57.766\n這個沒有問題但是我在這邊也可以澄清一下我們從113年有做了一些相關的量刑跟引導的一些作為包括所謂的量刑行情的系統還有一些加重詐欺的量刑的審酌事項或是參考表\n\n03:58.526 --> 04:23.431\n這些我們可以從113年的量刑的量刑的統計跟到114年的量刑統計我們發現了一個趨勢就是我們已經有慢慢的引導法官對適當的量刑在一年以上的量刑比例從以前的大概六成現在提高到七成以上我大概理解了但是你看你今天講我還是第一次聽到所以我們希望司法院要加強對這個部分讓民眾理解\n\n04:26.212 --> 04:46.589\n打詐不是只有行政院的事情司法院法官們也共同的感受到民眾對這個的痛好不好那另外一個事情持來的正義不是正義台版柬埔寨案他雖然出發點是經濟犯罪但是最後是一個暴力的家豬被害人甚至死亡這個案子您知道已經在台中地院審理多久了嗎\n\n04:48.292 --> 05:15.954\n兩年多了而且到現在呢這些共同背後很多我們知道案情很複雜但是有更多的這些受害人將近十位的受害人到現在其中一個在屏東這兩年多來他常接到船票舟車勞頓心中的畏恐懼傷害還沒平復這個部分是不是在審理相關的詐欺或者相關暴力犯罪的進度您會不會覺得可以再讓民眾感覺到我們司法院司法正義有在幫助人民\n\n05:16.838 --> 05:40.535\n這個的確我們有在精進的地方這個個案我雖然我通常不談案但是這個個案我特別要提出因為台版柬埔寨讓台灣的民眾真的shock希望未來在審理上能夠趕快還給受害者一個公道好嗎好謝謝請回來接下來呢我要再請教一下我們要請我們的來詐騙手法現在請次長還有我們警政署先生警察局\n\n05:41.714 --> 06:10.869\n詐騙手法層出不窮什麼都有買票買演唱會的票啊然後點去投資啦連齊交所都有好那往下看那麼現在呢我們所謂的行政院的新世代打擊詐欺策略行動法務部是其中一部分嘛對不對內政部警政署行政警察也是嘛我們看到的最低的時候是在哪裡114年今年2月的時候那時候我們宣布了一個網路社群平台廣告實名制馬上呢案件量就下降\n\n06:12.216 --> 06:28.826\n那個金額呢損失金額也下降但是過沒多久又開始跑上來了我們次長你覺得是不是打詐不可能一個招數就有辦法有效是不是要持續的對於詐團是以施壓反制他是不是這樣子次長\n\n06:29.451 --> 06:59.037\n我想我們都一直持續的在精進好我們的打仗的作為所以不是只有一招就可以停了還是會起來好往下看現在我們看到的呢現在目前民眾所習慣的就是165專線嘛是不是蔡警政監這是行政警察局的嘛是的他是一個常設的編制嗎目前他是辦公廳設在寶一裡面然後呢人員來自哪裡人員目前其實他本來是任務編組是架在炸防中心\n\n06:59.557 --> 07:21.438\n那炸防中心是編制嗎市政是編制嗎也是任務編組那行政院呢行政院的炸防辦也是任務編組所以拜託我們次長我們警政署所有民眾關心的打炸他必須要持之以恆的去進行所以你們是不是支持炸器犯罪防治中心的組織化又法制化\n\n07:24.379 --> 07:39.353\n好那我們要來請教一下有兩個部長很重要一個是全區部部長一個是人事總署來人事長來請請教兩位是不是也支持我們民眾最關切的打詐需要給他有足夠的力量持續的來做這個事情\n\n07:40.972 --> 07:55.260\n這個大概過去這一兩年刑事警察局跟我們提我們一直很支持只是說他內部的分工的問題好我後續會問所以你是支持的那行政院支持那我們那個考試院那個詮釋部\n\n07:56.921 --> 08:16.270\n現在這個案子到你們那裡了嗎這個案子還沒但是過程有一些大家交互問過一些意見我們全區府一向的態度是行政院因為這次要不要設置一個行政院政策設了以後剩下就主編的部分我們一定會協助來處理好我們希望能夠在九月的時候完成但是我們要請刑事警察局了解一下來刑事警察局\n\n08:17.230 --> 08:22.616\n你們刑事警察局是幾級機關啊四級機關但是你們四級機關底下有37個內部單位來根據我們你們還要再增設一個這個防炸中心已經37個了你還要再增設\n\n08:34.268 --> 08:53.870\n讓我們看到說那組織是不是要檢討呢根據我們中央行政機關組織基準法第10條階段性任務已經完成或政策已改變者或者說業務或功能明顯萎縮重點者你們有沒有盤點過這37個有沒有哪一個可以節省掉讓我們放資源到打炸中心的你們有沒有做個檢討\n\n08:56.207 --> 09:10.300\n這個部分因為我的這個夜館不是這個部分那我是有參加相關會議有聽到這個應該聽到誰說就是我們還有包括聽到我們人長說來人長講一下你覺得呢行政警察局有沒有好好的去做根據第10條來進行這樣的一個檢討\n\n09:12.745 --> 09:36.591\n他們都有很多的考量所以這個事情就磨很久現在等於我們8月6號已經把案子簽到行政院那就誠如委員所提的大概目標看能不能9月就到前序部用意別拖啦但是你們在過程中也有提到這個部分嘛刑事警察局應該要檢討一下自己的底下\n\n09:38.552 --> 10:01.250\n因為分工太細溝通成本太高稍微整併一下整個刑事警察局對他們來講是一個很好的事情然後第二件事情就是為了打詐而成立的單位我想剛才委員的數據資料也可以呈現說一年的詐騙案件多少我相信應該在\n\n10:03.231 --> 10:23.336\n所有部會努力下應該兩年內應該案件量會往下嘛當案件量往下的時候就是委員所提的業務後功能明顯萎縮的時候那個組織應該也要做一些調整所以你的意思是說阿總怕沒得吃藥肥腸好藥就不用吃阿不吃藥會對身體有傷阿但是阿總藥吃得不好身體不好這個藥也不要吃是不是這樣\n\n10:29.697 --> 10:48.199\n吃得好就不用吃吃得不好就不要吃是不是這樣所以來那個行政警察局的蔡警政監你聽到請你回去帶給警政署帶給行政警察局我們希望支持你們成立常態化的組織編制但是要定期檢討如果沒有效果我們就回到我們的組織經典好不好\n\n10:48.760 --> 11:15.787\n好那最後呢我這邊還要請一下我們的次長來我們也分享一下過去我們有一個國民法官法它這裡面呢立法在通過的時候對於國民參與審判的制度我們就訂了一個六年的一個評估每年要出一個報告六年後要提個總結報告再決定國民法官制度要不要繼續走下去是不是有這樣的一個規定是好來廳長那你覺得司法院未來會不會到期後也來檢討一下到底這樣的制度有好\n\n11:20.288 --> 11:34.134\n成效評估委員會的成立本來就是這樣的目的是嗎所以我這裡就說所以我們請人事長我們請那個權序部這邊我們的結論就是我們盡速推動刑事警察局詐欺防罪防治中心組織\n\n11:35.194 --> 11:36.215\n好謝謝那我們下一位請\n\n","segments":[{"start":15.723,"end":42.013,"text":"主席在場委員先進列車政府主管所長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生先有請我們司法院的理聽長和法務部的黃次長黃次長以及刑事警察局的蔡坤毅蔡警政監警政監委員好好 聽長好 次長好還有我們刑事警察局的還沒有到"},{"start":48.685,"end":70.727,"text":"來 我先請我們蔡警政監是 委員好你在刑事警察局你們刑事警察局負責打詐嘛是你覺得詐騙嚴不嚴重詐騙蠻嚴重的好 來 謝謝來 次長您覺得一般國人的感受對於詐騙這個事情普遍的一個不滿在哪裡"},{"start":72.406,"end":95.416,"text":"就是無端遭受經濟上損失遭受經濟上損失還有一個就是認為啊抓到判得太輕你覺得目前這些經濟犯罪詐欺犯被查獲後目前被起訴良刑覺得有沒有看到很多報導民眾的反應我不是說是不是太輕你覺得民眾是不是常常發出這樣的聲音"},{"start":96.622,"end":121.293,"text":"我想這個是常見於爆炸媒體報導的一個說法好 那麼我們知道詐欺它是個經濟犯罪經濟犯罪跟其他的經濟行為很像將本求利它其實它會去算它的成本其中一個很重要的犯罪成本最後端就是被抓到的風險以抓到後判刑的長短 是不是這樣對好 來 請教廳長最近我們看到有那些車手"},{"start":122.403,"end":151.863,"text":"被起訴之後法院一般認為說被害人為判太輕了車手都判幾個月甚至好幾個案子判了後放出來又再犯又再被輕重廳長你有沒有聽到這樣的一個民眾反應有為什麼我今天特別來問這個問題我們財政委員上個星期我們到幾家銀行去考察他們的零貴主詐的成效結果在場很多媒體就私下跟我反應說判太輕了但是我要說的是說"},{"start":153.224,"end":172.443,"text":"判刑的長短他只是一個他的犯罪成本前面還有很多階段他要投入的成本我們主詐防詐包括就是打詐就是要把他的犯罪成本高到他覺得投資報酬不划算是不是這樣子我非常贊同委員的意見"},{"start":174.969,"end":193.601,"text":"對於詐騙的打擊這個部分 除了要提高他的犯罪成本之外事實上前端的肆詐 堵詐 還有阻詐這個部分就是說增加了犯罪的障礙 或是提高犯罪障礙的部分可以減少犯罪率"},{"start":194.421,"end":220.199,"text":"是 我知道我們今天很理性的討論我們都可以理解在場聽的也可以接受但是一般民眾啊他只能看到的是什麼都被抓到了還判那麼輕這就是一般民眾的痛我們做再多前面再多讓詐團 讓詐欺案件下降都抵不過最後這個判刑的輕重可不可以請您跟司法院這邊反映一下這是普遍民眾為什麼得了司法不公或者持來的正義不是正義這種感受可以帶回反應嗎"},{"start":221.379,"end":237.766,"text":"這個沒有問題但是我在這邊也可以澄清一下我們從113年有做了一些相關的量刑跟引導的一些作為包括所謂的量刑行情的系統還有一些加重詐欺的量刑的審酌事項或是參考表"},{"start":238.526,"end":263.431,"text":"這些我們可以從113年的量刑的量刑的統計跟到114年的量刑統計我們發現了一個趨勢就是我們已經有慢慢的引導法官對適當的量刑在一年以上的量刑比例從以前的大概六成現在提高到七成以上我大概理解了但是你看你今天講我還是第一次聽到所以我們希望司法院要加強對這個部分讓民眾理解"},{"start":266.212,"end":286.589,"text":"打詐不是只有行政院的事情司法院法官們也共同的感受到民眾對這個的痛好不好那另外一個事情持來的正義不是正義台版柬埔寨案他雖然出發點是經濟犯罪但是最後是一個暴力的家豬被害人甚至死亡這個案子您知道已經在台中地院審理多久了嗎"},{"start":288.292,"end":315.954,"text":"兩年多了而且到現在呢這些共同背後很多我們知道案情很複雜但是有更多的這些受害人將近十位的受害人到現在其中一個在屏東這兩年多來他常接到船票舟車勞頓心中的畏恐懼傷害還沒平復這個部分是不是在審理相關的詐欺或者相關暴力犯罪的進度您會不會覺得可以再讓民眾感覺到我們司法院司法正義有在幫助人民"},{"start":316.838,"end":340.535,"text":"這個的確我們有在精進的地方這個個案我雖然我通常不談案但是這個個案我特別要提出因為台版柬埔寨讓台灣的民眾真的shock希望未來在審理上能夠趕快還給受害者一個公道好嗎好 謝謝 請回來 接下來呢我要再請教一下我們要請我們的來 詐騙手法 現在請次長還有我們警政署先生 警察局"},{"start":341.714,"end":370.869,"text":"詐騙手法層出不窮什麼都有 買票 買演唱會的票啊然後點去投資啦連齊交所都有好 那往下看那麼現在呢 我們所謂的行政院的新世代打擊詐欺策略行動法務部是其中一部分嘛 對不對內政部警政署 行政警察也是嘛我們看到的最低的時候是在哪裡114年今年2月的時候那時候我們宣布了一個網路社群平台廣告實名制馬上呢 案件量就下降"},{"start":372.216,"end":388.826,"text":"那個金額呢 損失金額也下降但是過沒多久又開始跑上來了我們 次長你覺得是不是打詐不可能一個招數就有辦法有效是不是要持續的對於詐團是以施壓反制他 是不是這樣子 次長"},{"start":389.451,"end":419.037,"text":"我想我們都一直持續的在精進好我們的打仗的作為所以不是只有一招就可以停了還是會起來好往下看現在我們看到的呢現在目前民眾所習慣的就是165專線嘛是不是蔡警政監這是行政警察局的嘛是的他是一個常設的編制嗎目前他是辦公廳設在寶一裡面然後呢人員來自哪裡人員目前其實他本來是任務編組是架在炸防中心"},{"start":419.557,"end":441.438,"text":"那炸防中心是編制嗎市政是編制嗎也是任務編組那行政院呢行政院的炸防辦也是任務編組所以拜託我們次長我們警政署所有民眾關心的打炸他必須要持之以恆的去進行所以你們是不是支持炸器犯罪防治中心的組織化又法制化"},{"start":444.379,"end":459.353,"text":"好 那我們要來請教一下有兩個部長很重要一個是全區部部長一個是人事總署來 人事長來 請請教兩位是不是也支持我們民眾最關切的打詐需要給他有足夠的力量持續的來做這個事情"},{"start":460.972,"end":475.26,"text":"這個大概過去這一兩年刑事警察局跟我們提我們一直很支持只是說他內部的分工的問題好我後續會問所以你是支持的那行政院支持那我們那個考試院那個詮釋部"},{"start":476.921,"end":496.27,"text":"現在這個案子到你們那裡了嗎這個案子還沒 但是過程有一些大家交互問過一些意見我們全區府一向的態度是行政院因為這次要不要設置一個行政院政策設了以後剩下就主編的部分我們一定會協助來處理好 我們希望能夠在九月的時候完成但是我們要請刑事警察局了解一下來 刑事警察局"},{"start":497.23,"end":502.616,"text":"你們刑事警察局是幾級機關啊四級機關但是你們四級機關底下有37個內部單位來 根據我們你們還要再增設一個這個防炸中心已經37個了 你還要再增設"},{"start":514.268,"end":533.87,"text":"讓我們看到說那組織是不是要檢討呢根據我們中央行政機關組織基準法第10條階段性任務已經完成或政策已改變者或者說業務或功能明顯萎縮重點者你們有沒有盤點過這37個有沒有哪一個可以節省掉讓我們放資源到打炸中心的你們有沒有做個檢討"},{"start":536.207,"end":550.3,"text":"這個部分因為我的這個夜館不是這個部分那我是有參加相關會議有聽到這個應該聽到誰說就是我們還有包括聽到我們人長說來人長講一下你覺得呢行政警察局有沒有好好的去做根據第10條來進行這樣的一個檢討"},{"start":552.745,"end":576.591,"text":"他們都有很多的考量所以這個事情就磨很久現在等於我們8月6號已經把案子簽到行政院那就誠如委員所提的大概目標看能不能9月就到前序部用意 別拖啦但是你們在過程中也有提到這個部分嘛刑事警察局應該要檢討一下自己的底下"},{"start":578.552,"end":601.25,"text":"因為分工太細 溝通成本太高稍微整併一下整個刑事警察局對他們來講是一個很好的事情然後第二件事情就是為了打詐而成立的單位我想剛才委員的數據資料也可以呈現說一年的詐騙案件多少我相信應該在"},{"start":603.231,"end":623.336,"text":"所有部會努力下 應該兩年內應該案件量會往下嘛當案件量往下的時候 就是委員所提的業務後功能明顯萎縮的時候那個組織應該也要做一些調整所以你的意思是說 阿總怕沒得吃藥 肥腸好 藥就不用吃阿不吃藥會對身體有傷阿但是阿總藥吃得不好 身體不好 這個藥也不要吃 是不是這樣"},{"start":629.697,"end":648.199,"text":"吃得好就不用吃吃得不好就不要吃是不是這樣所以來那個行政警察局的蔡警政監你聽到請你回去帶給警政署帶給行政警察局我們希望支持你們成立常態化的組織編制但是要定期檢討如果沒有效果我們就回到我們的組織經典好不好"},{"start":648.76,"end":675.787,"text":"好 那最後呢 我這邊還要請一下我們的次長來 我們也分享一下過去我們有一個國民法官法它這裡面呢 立法在通過的時候對於國民參與審判的制度我們就訂了一個六年的一個評估每年要出一個報告六年後要提個總結報告再決定國民法官制度要不要繼續走下去是不是有這樣的一個規定是好 來 廳長那你覺得司法院未來會不會到期後也來檢討一下到底這樣的制度有好"},{"start":680.288,"end":694.134,"text":"成效評估委員會的成立本來就是這樣的目的是嗎所以我這裡就說所以我們請人事長我們請那個權序部這邊我們的結論就是我們盡速推動刑事警察局詐欺防罪防治中心組織"},{"start":695.194,"end":696.215,"text":"好 謝謝那我們下一位請"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":967,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時12分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請司法院李廳長、法務部黃次長以及刑事警察局的蔡坤益警政監。"],["主席：請李廳長、黃次長、蔡警政監。"],["鍾委員佳濱：廳長好，次長好。我想先請教蔡警政監。"],["蔡警政監坤益：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你在刑事警察局，刑事警察局負責打詐，你覺得詐騙嚴不嚴重？"],["蔡警政監坤益：詐騙滿嚴重的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。請教次長，您覺得國人一般的感受，對於詐騙這個事情，普遍的不滿在哪裡？"],["黃次長世杰：就是無端遭受經濟上損失。"],["鍾委員佳濱：除了遭受經濟上損失，還有一個就是認為抓到之後判得太輕！目前這些經濟犯罪詐欺犯被查獲後，被起訴量刑，你有沒有看到很多報導，即民眾的反應，我不是說是不是太輕了，但你覺得民眾常常發出這樣的聲音？"],["黃次長世杰：我想這個是常見於報章媒體報導的一個說法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。我們知道，詐欺是經濟犯罪，經濟犯罪跟其他的經濟行為很像，就是要將本求利！他會去算他的成本，其中一個很重要的犯罪成本，就是最後端被抓到的風險以及抓到後判刑的長短，是不是這樣？"],["黃次長世杰：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請教廳長。最近我們看到有些車手被起訴後，一般認為法院會不會判太輕了，車手都判幾個月，甚至有好幾個案子判了後，放出來又再犯，又再被輕縱。廳長有沒有聽到民眾這樣的反應？"],["李廳長釱任：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，為什麼我今天特別來問這個問題，因為我們財政委員上個星期到幾家銀行去考察他們臨櫃阻詐的成效，結果在場很多媒體就私下跟我反映說判太輕了！我要說的是，判刑長短只是他的一個犯罪成本，前面還有很多階段他要投入的成本，我們阻詐、防詐、打詐，就是要把他的犯罪成本提高到讓他覺得投資報酬不划算，是不是這樣子？"],["李廳長釱任：我非常贊同委員的意見，對於詐騙的打擊，除了要提高他的犯罪成本之外，事實上，前端的識詐、堵詐，還有阻詐的部分，就是增加了犯罪的障礙，提高犯罪障礙的部分可以減少犯罪率。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是。我們今天很理性地討論，也都可以理解，在場的人也可以接受，但是一般民眾看到的是什麼？都被抓到了，還判的那麼輕，這就是一般民眾的痛。我們前面做再多，讓詐欺案件下降，都抵不過最後這個判刑的輕重。可不可以請您跟司法院這邊反映一下，為什麼民眾會普遍覺得司法不公或者遲來的正義不是正義，可以將這種感受代為反映嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：這個沒有問題，但我在這邊也要澄清一下，我們從113年都有做相關量刑跟引導的作為，包括量刑行情的系統，還有加重詐欺量刑的審酌事項或是參考表，我們可以從113年的量刑統計……"],["鍾委員佳濱：越來越重……"],["李廳長釱任：跟114年的量刑統計，發現到一個趨勢，就是我們已經慢慢引導法官做適當的量刑，一年以上的量刑比例，從以前大概是六成，現在提高到七成以上。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我大概理解了，但是你今天講的，我還是第一次聽到，所以我們希望司法院要加強這個部分，讓民眾理解打詐不是只有行政院的事情，司法院的法官也都共同感受到民眾對這個的痛，好不好？","另外，遲來的正義不是正義。臺版柬埔寨案的出發點雖然是經濟犯罪，但最後卻是以暴力加諸被害人，甚至造成死亡，你知道這個案子已經在臺中地院審理多久了嗎？兩年多了！我們知道共同被告很多，案情很複雜，但是有將近十位的受害人，其中一個在屏東，這兩年多來常常接到傳票，南北舟車勞頓，心中的恐懼傷害到現在還沒平復，在審理相關的詐欺或者相關暴力犯罪的進度上，您會不會覺得可以再讓民眾感覺到我們司法院、司法正義有在幫助人民？"],["李廳長釱任：這個的確是我們要再精進的地方。"],["鍾委員佳濱：本席通常不談個案，但是這個個案我特別要提出來，因為臺版柬埔寨案讓臺灣的民眾真的很shock，希望未來在審理上，能夠趕快還給受害者一個公道，好嗎？謝謝，請回。","接下來，我要再請教次長，還有警政署刑事警察局。詐騙手法層出不窮，什麼都有，像買演唱會的票、投資、連期交所都有。我們看到了行政院新世代打擊詐欺策略行動，法務部是其中一個部分，內政部警政署、刑事警察局也是。我們也看到最低的是在114年，也就是今年2月的時候，因為我們宣布了網路社群平臺廣告採實名制，案件量就馬上下降，損失金額也下降，但是過沒多久，又開始跑上來了。次長是不是也覺得打詐不可能一個招數就有辦法有效，是不是要持續對詐團施壓、反制？是不是這樣子？"],["黃次長世杰：我想我們都一直持續在精進打詐的作為。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以不是只有一招就可以停了，它還是會再起來。我們再往下看，目前民眾所習慣的就是165專線，這是在刑事警察局的，是不是？蔡警政監。"],["蔡警政監坤益：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：它是一個常設的編制嗎？"],["蔡警政監坤益：它目前的辦公廳舍是在保一裡面。"],["鍾委員佳濱：人員來自哪裡？"],["蔡警政監坤益：它本來是任務編組，是架在詐防中心。"],["鍾委員佳濱：詐防中心是正式編制嗎？"],["蔡警政監坤益：詐防中心也是任務編組。"],["鍾委員佳濱：行政院的詐防辦也是任務編組？所以，要拜託次長、警政署，對所有民眾所關心的打詐，都必須持之以恆去進行，所以你們是不是支持詐欺犯罪防制中心的組織化要法制化？"],["蔡警政監坤益：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有兩個部長很重要，本席要來請教一下，一個是銓敘部部長，一個是人事總處人事長。請教兩位是不是也支持我們民眾最關切的打詐，需要給它有足夠的力量，持續地來做這件事情？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：過去這一、兩年，刑事警察局跟我們提，我們也一直很支持，只是它內部分工的問題……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我後續會再問，所以你是支持的？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是，我支持。"],["鍾委員佳濱：行政院支持，那麼考試院銓敘部，現在這個案子到你們那裡了，是不是？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，這個案子還沒，但是過程中大家交換過一些意見，因為這要不要設置是行政院的政策，設了以後，剩下就是組編的部分，我們一定會協助處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們希望能夠在9月完成，但也要請刑事警察局了解一下，請問刑事警察局是幾級機關？"],["蔡警政監坤益：四級機關。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是在你們這個四級機關底下有37個內部單位，都已經37個了，還要再增設一個防詐中心，那麼這個組織是不是要檢討呢？根據中央行政機關組織基準法第十條規定，階段性任務已經完成或政策已改變者，或是業務或功能明顯萎縮或重疊者，你們有沒有盤點過這37個，有沒有哪一個可以節省掉，讓我們放資源到打詐中心？你們有沒有做過檢討？"],["蔡警政監坤益：報告委員，我業管的不是這個部分，但我參加相關會議是有聽到，應該……"],["鍾委員佳濱：聽到誰說？聽到我們人長說嗎？請人長來講一下，你覺得刑事警察局有沒有好好根據第十條，來進行這樣的檢討？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：他們都有很多的考量，所以這個事情就磨很久，我們在8月6日已經把案子簽到行政院，誠如委員所提的，大概目標就看9月能不能到銓敘部，不要拖啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們在過程中也有提到這個部分，刑事警察局是不是應該要檢討一下自己底下的內部單位？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：因為分工太細，溝通成本太高，稍微整併一下，對整個刑事警察局來講是很好的事情。第二件事情，就是為了打詐而成立的單位，我想委員剛才的數據資料也呈現出一年的詐騙案件多少，相信在所有部會努力下，兩年內案件量應該會往下；當案件量往下的時候，就是委員所提的業務或功能明顯萎縮的時候，那個組織也應該要做一些調整。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以，你的意思是，就好像生病就要吃藥，病好了，藥就不用再吃了，是不是？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，不然吃那個對身體也會有傷害啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：但如果吃的藥沒效，身體不好，這個藥也就不要吃了，是不是這樣？吃了，好了，就不用再吃；吃了，還是不好，就不要吃，是不是這樣？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：刑事警察局的蔡警政監也聽到了，請你帶回去給警政署和刑事警察局，我們希望支持你們成立常態化的組織編制，但也要定期檢討；如果沒有效果，就回到我們的組織精簡，好不好？"],["蔡警政監坤益：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後，我還要再請教次長，請你們也可以分享一下。過去國民法官法在立法通過的時候，對於國民參與審判的制度訂定6年要做一個評估，也就是每年要提一個報告，6年後要提出總結報告，再決定國民法官制度要不要繼續走下去，是不是有這樣的一個規定？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：廳長覺得司法院未來在到期後，會不會也來檢討這樣的制度，如果有效，就繼續吃；沒效，就停下來？"],["李廳長釱任：成效評估委員會的成立本來就是這樣的目的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是嘛！所以我們請人事長和銓敘部，結論就是儘速推動刑事警察局詐欺犯罪防制中心組織法制化，並參考國民參與審判制度訂定成效評估來考核它。最後，希望我們給你們工具、給你們方法，但你們要珍惜使用，以應國民的期待，幾位是不是都認同？好，謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請陳冠廷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-24","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","莊瑞雄","林倩綺","陳培瑜","沈發惠","羅智強","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","鍾佳濱","陳冠廷","吳沛憶","王鴻薇"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2025-08-14"],"gazette_id":"1147302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147302_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請銓敘部部長、行政院人事行政總處人事長、中央選舉委員會主任委員、法務部廉政署署\n長、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「政務人員應否及如何遵守行政中立原\n則、行政機關於選舉罷免期間應為如何之宣導與落實」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、併案審查\n(一)考試院函請審議「公務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員邱志偉等21人擬具\n「公務人員考績法第三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「公務人員考績法第十\n二條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「公務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」\n案、( 五) 委員范雲等17 人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條、第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案」\n案；三、併案審查(一)委員傅崐萁等25人、(二)委員郭昱晴等18人分別擬具「刑事訴訟法第七十\n一條及第一百七十五條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1147302_00005"}}}