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00:01:15,440\n那也後來有2.0的版本也出現了但是呢我們可以看到到上個月的財損還是到85.4億那麼下一頁我們可以看到的是這個每天都還超過了2億的這樣的一個財損那這個是最重要的在本黨的一個\n\n4\n00:01:18,029 --> 00:01:40,502\n診斷當中發現到最重要的成效有限是因為民眾對政府的誠信充滿了不信任施政就有過度的包裝跟話術的問題我們現在就繼續往下看行政院你自己本身的打詐架構當中有了市詐堵詐防詐阻詐跟懲詐的部分當然最重要的是市詐請問您\n\n5\n00:01:42,443 --> 00:01:47,219\n院長這四五個步驟裡面哪一個是最重要的是不是市長\n\n6\n00:01:48,137 --> 00:02:16,267\n每一個環節都重要有源頭到下游全部都重要有市詐就會降低案件的發生好我覺得是從第一步來講沒錯第一步你說的市詐非常重要所以我們就必須要了解市詐的重點是什麼包括你的打詐成果包括你常常說要強調源頭管理那我們現在看到市詐竟然是預防於先我們看到基本內容當中詐騙本身有幾個部分第一個部分就是\n\n7\n00:02:17,047 --> 00:02:39,439\n誇大的謊言製造第二個部分是設計騙局第三個是導致財損這是非常重要的情況那我們就繼續來看那就用這樣的架構我們就來看看民進黨本身你卓院長的這個政策幫他們看到好多項包括的是在看到的是在財化法當中造成的非常多的一個民怨還包括在\n\n8\n00:02:40,299 --> 00:02:58,712\n重視到光電呢但是卻造成台南的這個光電爐炸案這郭齋清的這個非法的掩埋等等還有包括21的這個非法獲利那我們再往下一頁看到的是特別是在現在進入到非核家園強調的達成了但是20%的要再生能源\n\n9\n00:02:59,612 --> 00:03:22,712\n那又看到的是但是實際上在現在只有16%的再生能源部分還造成了很多的影響企業的配電我們再繼續往下看看到的是在這次的颱風當中有出現到了這麼多的光電海溫新溫光電廠當中12天之內都還沒有再清洗我們繼續再往下看的時候他都已經清理完畢在集中在一個站置場上\n\n10\n00:03:23,995 --> 00:03:45,789\n對但是還是沒有處理完備好這部分我們繼續往下看這一部分呢民進黨的話術這邊就呈現到在20242025我們再看看這次的颱風當中呢也強調說風光發電瞬間的這個風速呢是非常高到15.2%等等的但事實上這些的剛才說那兩個在台南跟嘉義的光電呢通通都是屬於\n\n11\n00:03:47,011 --> 00:03:54,405\n在清理的部分包括之前用實驗性的都要花到3到5億這部分然後還要造成的環境的汙染\n\n12\n00:03:55,526 --> 00:04:23,971\n大家可以看到的是剛才所說的部分可以看到是一個誇大的說很好很好光電很好這真的有它的好處但是被誇大了看到這部分造成了災損的部分我們看往下的這部分好那繼續再想到在再生能源的部分行政院長主任院長你在當初有呈到說在2024的時候2024的時候這個新聞當中你說的再生能源的這個成本一定會降下來那\n\n13\n00:04:24,711 --> 00:04:42,941\n這一部分我們可以看到是根本就經不起在風災上面的檢驗根本還沒有準備好那測試當中呢還沒有準備好發電都已經有虧損的這個情況出現了報告委員風災檢驗不堪一擊這句話實驗性質的設備吧可能要調整一下\n\n14\n00:04:47,472 --> 00:05:05,226\n不需要我現在就說事實上我們看到就是我剛剛特別是指剛剛那兩個那兩個的養魚重電的場合所以沒有問題好那我們繼續往下看以現在台電我們看到的發電成本的數據來看在最近的台電的網站當中所呈現的這個數據當中呢平均的\n\n15\n00:05:06,787 --> 00:05:33,421\n發電購電成本是3.19但是再生能源還是到5.6我覺得是特別是針對到外部的購電的成本這些部分好那我們知道的是請問鄭敬請問卓院長一個問題再生能源的成本是需要考量的沒有錯可是重要我們知道核電的成本這部分你看到的是請問您知道核電是唯一的後端處理基金都已經計入電價的能源嗎CPT請出現核核端的基金有累積相當對\n\n16\n00:05:35,131 --> 00:05:52,473\n有放進去嘛對不對所以他現在的價格已經是像剛才那張圖上呈現出來的是不是才一點多塊錢而且他已經加入到這個計價當中把唯一後端的處理基金放進去除了處理之外他呈現的安全上的考量\n\n17\n00:05:52,833 --> 00:06:17,627\n是我們要優先考量所以我們是說有核安有核廢的處理還有全民的高度共識是我們對現在傳統能源的看法以及我們對新式能源願意來接觸的一個態度沒有錯你這樣講再把你的政策宣示一下是好事情但是我們現在繼續看到但是在目前的部分我們看到的是剛才就出現到在撥補台電1000億的招商的這個情況之下\n\n18\n00:06:18,807 --> 00:06:47,987\n你自己說的調整電價呢恐釀成呢就是三個一千億之後呢就會調整電價會讓人物價的上漲但是這民眾看起來就是怎麼樣就是你在恐嚇民眾這一部分因為在野黨的部分沒有刪就是把它刪除掉了再說你們刪除了不去做撥補了之後那會有上漲電價還會有造成物價上漲其實就像剛才我說的整個大片的過程當中就是\n\n19\n00:06:48,907 --> 00:07:15,928\n就是一個誇大的一個說法之後然後事實上面不是造成這樣然後最後造成了災損當然我們很清楚的知道我們今天我用這個方式教訓大家講的是卓榮泰政府所做的示威是一個當然是一個政府但是他最重要的是他所做的行為其實跟詐騙集團的思想法是很相近的我覺得剛剛那句話的邏輯應該是很簡單一般人都會懂因為他就是一個邏輯\n\n20\n00:07:17,148 --> 00:07:32,601\n我們敢讓台電的財務狀況比較健全我在電價審議委員會裡面的討論他就會認為台電可以抑制但如果不是的話電價委員會有他的考量我現在讓你看看下一頁的地方我們看到到2019年2019年\n\n21\n00:07:36,003 --> 00:08:00,770\n對說109年2020年的時候蔡總統在說了2050、2025年的時候再生能源可以創造1兆的投資額1.2兆的產值跟2萬個工作機會他要把台灣打造成亞洲的綠能發展中心那這個地方是他2020年說的那我們繼續往下看我們現在風電的增加量\n\n22\n00:08:02,349 --> 00:08:26,327\n經濟部統治我們風電的增加量那個時候到現在是世界第一位但我們不是以此自滿我們要做更多安全的能源分布所以您就講到就算是這樣子也只要部分可是其他的工作機會產值這些部分通通一直講到再生能力現在只講到風電再生能力有非常多種所以我們繼續講就是你是誇大不實的這部分就跟詐騙警察所做的很相近第二部分我們在看到的是\n\n23\n00:08:27,248 --> 00:08:53,535\n上個月本席在活客會的這個質詢當中呈現到說要他呈現做科學園區的用水用電包括是再生能源是不是能夠供應到台灣的科學園區的需求結果拿到三頁的這樣的內容事實上就看出來的是對於再生能源的供應他沒有說得清楚更重要的是在下一個部分看到的是在科學園區的部分我們看到這張圖是非常重要的\n\n24\n00:08:54,415 --> 00:09:07,749\n可以看到在生能源發展這邊呈現出來的是支持資料在2025年的時候是330億度左右這部分好那我們可以看到是台積電它本身在台灣就要用到250億度電\n\n25\n00:09:10,202 --> 00:09:11,982\n所以我們要增加開發更多的再生能源\n\n26\n00:09:39,162 --> 00:09:48,935\n是沒錯但是我跟你講現在謝謝院長但是我們繼續往下看同樣的可能又是在騙局的製造了我們看看這張圖當中呈現出來的\n\n27\n00:09:50,896 --> 00:10:14,019\n我可以為了事實上面呈現出來是說在現在的電網問題在上面不生產出來但是你要把輸電輸到廠商那邊去啊可是在我可能網站當中呈現出來是所有的網路的潰線的部分呢再生能源網站呢再生能源的電網最多到203年2032年之後才能達成7年之後所以現在在這能源是\n\n28\n00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,842\n所以我們要求拜託給台電多一點支持就是讓他增加電網的韌性時間暫停\n\n29\n00:10:38,035 --> 00:10:52,303\n委員容許我提醒一下我們今天根據職宣刑事法第17條邀請行政院率委員來報告題目是打詐策略那個院長我們有考慮過這個問題我說明一下因為本身\n\n30\n00:10:53,737 --> 00:11:21,414\n行政院就是一個非常重要的一個能夠讓人家信任而且能夠說你在政策部分所以這部分如果本身卓院長行政院的部分他本身就是一個製造謊言製造誇大言辭甚至還造成人民財損他本身不是最大的一個製造中心嗎我想就尊重容我提醒你如果說你針對能源問題我們立法院大家形成共識再請卓院長來報告能源問題\n\n31\n00:11:22,395 --> 00:11:30,665\n我觉得这样子比较名符相识好那我可以很快吗能源我觉得这个名符不是我们很多过去\n\n32\n00:11:31,144 --> 00:11:56,662\n有可能雞飛塵世如果特別提醒你我希望你還是能夠回到我們請卓院長來的今天主題打炸七列策略好不好謝謝請繼續謝謝韓院長才是好那是我尊重那個院長的這樣的但是我這邊部分有一個很快的就會帶過去好不好那這地方我們看到是剛才再生能源的部分有包括的是有再生能源但是我們可以看到的是再生能源因為往\n\n33\n00:11:57,483 --> 00:12:16,381\n往潰線的部分的一個差異性所以他沒辦法供給那最重要是剛才的部分大家就知道再生能源當中中午的9點到下午的2點當中就是非常多的一個潰線的部分非常多的再生能源但是這部分台電就是要不費給到發電業者去了\n\n34\n00:12:17,102 --> 00:12:36,469\n台電負責半夜月整這就是那其他部分在晚上的跟凌晨的時候呢就是會補上的這邊有火力去就是造成的台電虧損最重要的原因那我再必須從企業部分去講的是在於企業部分看到他還是要要複合他國外去做出口的時候他必須要有再生能源憑證那我們繼續往下看\n\n35\n00:12:37,009 --> 00:12:50,335\n可是再生能源憑證他必須要能夠這個電力呢是能夠真的有用的目前台灣的再生能源的憑證當中因為會線真的沒辦法到達所以他只能在台灣用但是最像台積電其他的\n\n36\n00:12:52,040 --> 00:13:15,635\n廠商他輸出國外的有外銷的部分他就沒辦法達到國際間的再生能源憑證那就會出現到非常大的問題就是說台灣現在的再生能源的環境並沒有去撐他的對他的這個在國際間的出口是有幫助的他沒辦法達到廠商的需求這部分更重要的還有一個部分再生能源剛才已經說了是\n\n37\n00:13:16,716 --> 00:13:43,186\n屬於一般的我們它的再生能源可是現在最重要的在於說再生能源如果到二再生能源它的量的話其實越受制於地形當地環境的差異性更重要的現在是要有所謂的非碳的全時的24小時7天能夠用的這樣子的一個能源在它才能夠因應國際間的需求但是這部分也是由聯合國跟國際能源總署跟產業客戶所達成的這樣一個部分\n\n38\n00:13:43,706 --> 00:14:04,785\n我們繼續再往下看在這個情況之前的國科會也提到了在廠商的外移這邊我們看到台積電的外移是非常重要的台積電的外移到我們方向雖然涉及到了關稅的問題雖然關稅的問題可是更重要的是台積電沒說的事實大家往下看到這個部分在全球的分布當中台積電要去\n\n39\n00:14:06,431 --> 00:14:27,914\n德國了德國他德國完整的跟他講可以的我們可以百分之百的供應到再生能源但日本的部分呢在熊本那但是他是用九州的這個整個電網裡面供應他也是再生能源也是沒有問題的然後在亞利桑那當中呢這個整個州這部分核能\n\n40\n00:14:29,075 --> 00:14:48,221\n因為供給他在積載電力之後他的再生能源也是可以的那最重要的是要跟大家講的是當芬蘭呢這個是大家知道北歐是非常重要的一個重視環保的國家他現在更是全世界第二大的這個核電生產國那降低了75%的一個建價成本這部分也是供參考\n\n41\n00:14:49,401 --> 00:15:08,767\n當然這部分我們的銀長佐的現在代表進到芬蘭去了這部分可是他在那邊如果有機會跟全民的這個共樂的時候可以講到說這部分他在一個核電這麼高的地方事實上是要去了解到的那最重要講到這邊的部分是要跟大家跟院長你要做一個資訊\n\n42\n00:15:10,467 --> 00:15:37,913\n因為您行政院民進黨的這個政府當中呢就是為了政策選票在說謊誇大不實的然後找出錯誤的一個政策出現導致的國家的財損還會繼續台電的擴大那企業就不敢出走包括我剛才說的台積電是一個非常典型的例子因為剛才所說的台積台灣並沒有辦法提供的這樣足夠的再生能源如果又沒有所謂的非碳的電力而且24小時7天的去這樣做是不行的\n\n43\n00:15:38,473 --> 00:15:58,422\n所以在剛才的這部分詐騙的一個行為當中就是誇大不實事實上跟相反然後還包括是後面這部分那當然就說人民就會覺得您就是民進黨政府可能就是一個非常大的一個詐騙期的也就是因為這樣的情況之下他沒有辦法去得到信念包括剛才的\n\n44\n00:16:00,336 --> 00:16:25,823\n胡志強我也說了當你的心思沒有完全在你的政策的上面大大增這個效果那我們繼續看到的是目前台灣最大的民怨是什麼是對等關稅能源問題跟詐騙跟詐騙的問題那因為缺乏政府人民缺乏對政府的信任只想優點的這個謊言而且忽視財產這個事實那老實講就是一個詐騙這種情形那這個地方怎麼去改變呢\n\n45\n00:16:26,943 --> 00:16:51,514\n打詐最重要在這裡就是希望是說包括的是希望在這邊我們繼續往下看的是希望能夠誠實的拿去處理對不起委員你剛剛的這一席講話不僅違反院長的才識也完全沒有邏輯我實在沒有辦法理解好謝謝謝謝謝謝委員辛苦了劉書斌委員謝謝好謝謝你的質詢也謝謝卓院長相關首長的備詢謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n49\t1630\t主席好 請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n34858\t57227\t劉委員好 院長好那本席今天就行政院的打詐政策跟民進黨政府的誠信問題還造成的財損的部分來請教於您再來我們看一下民進黨在109年的時候就宣告了打詐原理那您去年就任就已經通過了打詐的新的四法\n57927\t75440\t那也後來有2.0的版本也出現了但是呢我們可以看到到上個月的財損還是到85.4億那麼下一頁我們可以看到的是這個每天都還超過了2億的這樣的一個財損那這個是最重要的在本黨的一個\n78029\t100502\t診斷當中發現到最重要的成效有限是因為民眾對政府的誠信充滿了不信任施政就有過度的包裝跟話術的問題我們現在就繼續往下看行政院你自己本身的打詐架構當中有了市詐 堵詐 防詐 阻詐跟懲詐的部分當然最重要的是市詐請問您\n102443\t107219\t院長這四五個步驟裡面哪一個是最重要的是不是市長\n108137\t136267\t每一個環節都重要有源頭到下游 全部都重要有市詐就會降低案件的發生好 我覺得是從第一步來講沒錯 第一步你說的市詐非常重要所以我們就必須要了解市詐的重點是什麼包括你的打詐成果包括你常常說要強調源頭管理那我們現在看到市詐竟然是預防於先我們看到基本內容當中詐騙本身有幾個部分第一個部分就是\n137047\t159439\t誇大的謊言製造第二個部分是設計騙局第三個是導致財損這是非常重要的情況那我們就繼續來看那就用這樣的架構我們就來看看民進黨本身你卓院長的這個政策幫他們看到好多項包括的是在看到的是在財化法當中造成的非常多的一個民怨還包括在\n160299\t178712\t重視到光電呢但是卻造成台南的這個光電爐炸案這郭齋清的這個非法的掩埋等等還有包括21的這個非法獲利那我們再往下一頁看到的是特別是在現在進入到非核家園強調的達成了但是20%的要再生能源\n179612\t202712\t那又看到的是但是實際上在現在只有16%的再生能源部分還造成了很多的影響企業的配電我們再繼續往下看看到的是在這次的颱風當中有出現到了這麼多的光電海溫 新溫光電廠當中12天之內都還沒有再清洗我們繼續再往下看的時候他都已經清理完畢在集中在一個站置場上\n203995\t225789\t對但是還是沒有處理完備好這部分我們繼續往下看這一部分呢民進黨的話術這邊就呈現到在20242025我們再看看這次的颱風當中呢也強調說風光發電瞬間的這個風速呢是非常高到15.2%等等的但事實上這些的剛才說那兩個在台南跟嘉義的光電呢通通都是屬於\n227011\t234405\t在清理的部分包括之前用實驗性的都要花到3到5億這部分然後還要造成的環境的汙染\n235526\t263971\t大家可以看到的是剛才所說的部分可以看到是一個誇大的說很好很好光電很好這真的有它的好處但是被誇大了看到這部分造成了災損的部分我們看往下的這部分好那繼續再想到在再生能源的部分行政院長主任院長你在當初有呈到說在2024的時候2024的時候這個新聞當中你說的再生能源的這個成本一定會降下來那\n264711\t282941\t這一部分我們可以看到是根本就經不起在風災上面的檢驗根本還沒有準備好那測試當中呢還沒有準備好發電都已經有虧損的這個情況出現了報告委員風災檢驗不堪一擊這句話實驗性質的設備吧可能要調整一下\n287472\t305226\t不需要我現在就說事實上我們看到就是我剛剛特別是指剛剛那兩個那兩個的養魚重電的場合所以沒有問題好那我們繼續往下看以現在台電我們看到的發電成本的數據來看在最近的台電的網站當中所呈現的這個數據當中呢平均的\n306787\t333421\t發電購電成本是3.19但是再生能源還是到5.6我覺得是特別是針對到外部的購電的成本這些部分好那我們知道的是請問鄭敬請問卓院長一個問題再生能源的成本是需要考量的沒有錯可是重要我們知道核電的成本這部分你看到的是請問您知道核電是唯一的後端處理基金都已經計入電價的能源嗎CPT請出現核核端的基金有累積相當對\n335131\t352473\t有放進去嘛 對不對所以他現在的價格已經是像剛才那張圖上呈現出來的是不是才一點多塊錢而且他已經加入到這個計價當中把唯一後端的處理基金放進去除了處理之外 他呈現的安全上的考量\n352833\t377627\t是我們要優先考量所以我們是說有核安有核廢的處理還有全民的高度共識是我們對現在傳統能源的看法以及我們對新式能源願意來接觸的一個態度沒有錯你這樣講再把你的政策宣示一下是好事情但是我們現在繼續看到但是在目前的部分我們看到的是剛才就出現到在撥補台電1000億的招商的這個情況之下\n378807\t407987\t你自己說的調整電價呢恐釀成呢就是三個一千億之後呢就會調整電價會讓人物價的上漲但是這民眾看起來就是怎麼樣就是你在恐嚇民眾這一部分因為在野黨的部分沒有刪就是把它刪除掉了再說你們刪除了不去做撥補了之後那會有上漲電價還會有造成物價上漲其實就像剛才我說的整個大片的過程當中就是\n408907\t435928\t就是一個誇大的一個說法之後然後事實上面不是造成這樣然後最後造成了災損當然我們很清楚的知道我們今天我用這個方式教訓大家講的是卓榮泰政府所做的示威是一個當然是一個政府但是他最重要的是他所做的行為其實跟詐騙集團的思想法是很相近的我覺得剛剛那句話的邏輯應該是很簡單一般人都會懂因為他就是一個邏輯\n437148\t452601\t我們敢讓台電的財務狀況比較健全我在電價審議委員會裡面的討論他就會認為台電可以抑制但如果不是的話電價委員會有他的考量我現在讓你看看下一頁的地方我們看到到2019年2019年\n456003\t480770\t對 說109年 2020年的時候蔡總統在說了2050、2025年的時候再生能源可以創造1兆的投資額1.2兆的產值跟2萬個工作機會他要把台灣打造成亞洲的綠能發展中心那這個地方是他2020年說的那我們繼續往下看我們現在風電的增加量\n482349\t506327\t經濟部統治 我們風電的增加量那個時候到現在是世界第一位但我們不是以此自滿我們要做更多安全的能源分布所以您就講到 就算是這樣子也只要部分可是其他的工作機會產值這些部分通通一直講到再生能力 現在只講到風電再生能力有非常多種所以我們繼續講就是你是誇大不實的這部分就跟詐騙警察所做的很相近第二部分我們在看到的是\n507248\t533535\t上個月本席在活客會的這個質詢當中呈現到說要他呈現做科學園區的用水用電包括是再生能源是不是能夠供應到台灣的科學園區的需求結果拿到三頁的這樣的內容事實上就看出來的是對於再生能源的供應他沒有說得清楚更重要的是在下一個部分看到的是在科學園區的部分我們看到這張圖是非常重要的\n534415\t547749\t可以看到在生能源發展這邊呈現出來的是支持資料在2025年的時候是330億度左右這部分好那我們可以看到是台積電它本身在台灣就要用到250億度電\n550202\t551982\t所以我們要增加開發更多的再生能源\n579162\t588935\t是沒錯但是我跟你講現在謝謝院長但是我們繼續往下看同樣的可能又是在騙局的製造了我們看看這張圖當中呈現出來的\n590896\t614019\t我可以為了事實上面呈現出來是說在現在的電網問題在上面不生產出來但是你要把輸電輸到廠商那邊去啊可是在我可能網站當中呈現出來是所有的網路的潰線的部分呢再生能源網站呢再生能源的電網最多到203年2032年之後才能達成7年之後所以現在在這能源是\n615240\t618842\t所以我們要求拜託給台電多一點支持就是讓他增加電網的韌性時間暫停\n638035\t652303\t委員 容許我提醒一下我們今天根據職宣刑事法第17條邀請行政院率委員來報告題目是打詐策略那個 院長我們有考慮過這個問題我說明一下因為本身\n653737\t681414\t行政院就是一個非常重要的一個能夠讓人家信任而且能夠說你在政策部分所以這部分如果本身卓院長行政院的部分他本身就是一個製造謊言 製造誇大言辭甚至還造成人民財損他本身不是最大的一個製造中心嗎我想就尊重容我提醒你 如果說你針對能源問題我們立法院大家形成共識再請卓院長來報告能源問題\n682395\t690665\t我觉得这样子比较名符相识好那我可以很快吗能源我觉得这个名符不是我们很多过去\n691144\t716662\t有可能雞飛塵世如果特別提醒你我希望你還是能夠回到我們請卓院長來的今天主題打炸七列策略好不好謝謝請繼續謝謝韓院長才是好那是我尊重那個院長的這樣的但是我這邊部分有一個很快的就會帶過去好不好那這地方我們看到是剛才再生能源的部分有包括的是有再生能源但是我們可以看到的是再生能源因為往\n717483\t736381\t往潰線的部分的一個差異性所以他沒辦法供給那最重要是剛才的部分大家就知道再生能源當中中午的9點到下午的2點當中就是非常多的一個潰線的部分非常多的再生能源但是這部分台電就是要不費給到發電業者去了\n737102\t756469\t台電負責半夜月整這就是那其他部分在晚上的跟凌晨的時候呢就是會補上的這邊有火力去就是造成的台電虧損最重要的原因那我再必須從企業部分去講的是在於企業部分看到他還是要要複合他國外去做出口的時候他必須要有再生能源憑證那我們繼續往下看\n757009\t770335\t可是再生能源憑證他必須要能夠這個電力呢是能夠真的有用的目前台灣的再生能源的憑證當中因為會線真的沒辦法到達所以他只能在台灣用但是最像台積電其他的\n772040\t795635\t廠商他輸出國外的有外銷的部分他就沒辦法達到國際間的再生能源憑證那就會出現到非常大的問題就是說台灣現在的再生能源的環境並沒有去撐他的對他的這個在國際間的出口是有幫助的他沒辦法達到廠商的需求這部分更重要的還有一個部分再生能源剛才已經說了是\n796716\t823186\t屬於一般的我們它的再生能源可是現在最重要的在於說再生能源如果到二再生能源它的量的話其實越受制於地形當地環境的差異性更重要的現在是要有所謂的非碳的全時的24小時7天能夠用的這樣子的一個能源在它才能夠因應國際間的需求但是這部分也是由聯合國跟國際能源總署跟產業客戶所達成的這樣一個部分\n823706\t844785\t我們繼續再往下看在這個情況之前的國科會也提到了在廠商的外移這邊我們看到台積電的外移是非常重要的台積電的外移到我們方向雖然涉及到了關稅的問題雖然關稅的問題可是更重要的是台積電沒說的事實大家往下看到這個部分在全球的分布當中台積電要去\n846431\t867914\t德國了德國他德國完整的跟他講可以的我們可以百分之百的供應到再生能源但日本的部分呢在熊本那但是他是用九州的這個整個電網裡面供應他也是再生能源也是沒有問題的然後在亞利桑那當中呢這個整個州這部分核能\n869075\t888221\t因為供給他在積載電力之後他的再生能源也是可以的那最重要的是要跟大家講的是當芬蘭呢這個是大家知道北歐是非常重要的一個重視環保的國家他現在更是全世界第二大的這個核電生產國那降低了75%的一個建價成本這部分也是供參考\n889401\t908767\t當然這部分我們的銀長佐的現在代表進到芬蘭去了這部分可是他在那邊如果有機會跟全民的這個共樂的時候可以講到說這部分他在一個核電這麼高的地方事實上是要去了解到的那最重要講到這邊的部分是要跟大家跟院長你要做一個資訊\n910467\t937913\t因為您行政院民進黨的這個政府當中呢就是為了政策選票在說謊誇大不實的然後找出錯誤的一個政策出現導致的國家的財損還會繼續台電的擴大那企業就不敢出走包括我剛才說的台積電是一個非常典型的例子因為剛才所說的台積台灣並沒有辦法提供的這樣足夠的再生能源如果又沒有所謂的非碳的電力而且24小時7天的去這樣做是不行的\n938473\t958422\t所以在剛才的這部分詐騙的一個行為當中就是誇大不實事實上跟相反然後還包括是後面這部分那當然就說人民就會覺得您就是民進黨政府可能就是一個非常大的一個詐騙期的也就是因為這樣的情況之下他沒有辦法去得到信念包括剛才的\n960336\t985823\t胡志強我也說了當你的心思沒有完全在你的政策的上面大大增這個效果那我們繼續看到的是目前台灣最大的民怨是什麼是對等關稅能源問題跟詐騙跟詐騙的問題那因為缺乏政府人民缺乏對政府的信任只想優點的這個謊言而且忽視財產這個事實那老實講就是一個詐騙這種情形那這個地方怎麼去改變呢\n986943\t1011514\t打詐最重要在這裡就是希望是說包括的是希望在這邊我們繼續往下看的是希望能夠誠實的拿去處理對不起委員你剛剛的這一席講話不僅違反院長的才識也完全沒有邏輯我實在沒有辦法理解好 謝謝謝謝謝謝委員辛苦了 劉書斌委員謝謝好 謝謝你的質詢也謝謝卓院長相關首長的備詢 謝謝\n","txt":"主席好 請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n劉委員好 院長好那本席今天就行政院的打詐政策跟民進黨政府的誠信問題還造成的財損的部分來請教於您再來我們看一下民進黨在109年的時候就宣告了打詐原理那您去年就任就已經通過了打詐的新的四法\n那也後來有2.0的版本也出現了但是呢我們可以看到到上個月的財損還是到85.4億那麼下一頁我們可以看到的是這個每天都還超過了2億的這樣的一個財損那這個是最重要的在本黨的一個\n診斷當中發現到最重要的成效有限是因為民眾對政府的誠信充滿了不信任施政就有過度的包裝跟話術的問題我們現在就繼續往下看行政院你自己本身的打詐架構當中有了市詐 堵詐 防詐 阻詐跟懲詐的部分當然最重要的是市詐請問您\n院長這四五個步驟裡面哪一個是最重要的是不是市長\n每一個環節都重要有源頭到下游 全部都重要有市詐就會降低案件的發生好 我覺得是從第一步來講沒錯 第一步你說的市詐非常重要所以我們就必須要了解市詐的重點是什麼包括你的打詐成果包括你常常說要強調源頭管理那我們現在看到市詐竟然是預防於先我們看到基本內容當中詐騙本身有幾個部分第一個部分就是\n誇大的謊言製造第二個部分是設計騙局第三個是導致財損這是非常重要的情況那我們就繼續來看那就用這樣的架構我們就來看看民進黨本身你卓院長的這個政策幫他們看到好多項包括的是在看到的是在財化法當中造成的非常多的一個民怨還包括在\n重視到光電呢但是卻造成台南的這個光電爐炸案這郭齋清的這個非法的掩埋等等還有包括21的這個非法獲利那我們再往下一頁看到的是特別是在現在進入到非核家園強調的達成了但是20%的要再生能源\n那又看到的是但是實際上在現在只有16%的再生能源部分還造成了很多的影響企業的配電我們再繼續往下看看到的是在這次的颱風當中有出現到了這麼多的光電海溫 新溫光電廠當中12天之內都還沒有再清洗我們繼續再往下看的時候他都已經清理完畢在集中在一個站置場上\n對但是還是沒有處理完備好這部分我們繼續往下看這一部分呢民進黨的話術這邊就呈現到在20242025我們再看看這次的颱風當中呢也強調說風光發電瞬間的這個風速呢是非常高到15.2%等等的但事實上這些的剛才說那兩個在台南跟嘉義的光電呢通通都是屬於\n在清理的部分包括之前用實驗性的都要花到3到5億這部分然後還要造成的環境的汙染\n大家可以看到的是剛才所說的部分可以看到是一個誇大的說很好很好光電很好這真的有它的好處但是被誇大了看到這部分造成了災損的部分我們看往下的這部分好那繼續再想到在再生能源的部分行政院長主任院長你在當初有呈到說在2024的時候2024的時候這個新聞當中你說的再生能源的這個成本一定會降下來那\n這一部分我們可以看到是根本就經不起在風災上面的檢驗根本還沒有準備好那測試當中呢還沒有準備好發電都已經有虧損的這個情況出現了報告委員風災檢驗不堪一擊這句話實驗性質的設備吧可能要調整一下\n不需要我現在就說事實上我們看到就是我剛剛特別是指剛剛那兩個那兩個的養魚重電的場合所以沒有問題好那我們繼續往下看以現在台電我們看到的發電成本的數據來看在最近的台電的網站當中所呈現的這個數據當中呢平均的\n發電購電成本是3.19但是再生能源還是到5.6我覺得是特別是針對到外部的購電的成本這些部分好那我們知道的是請問鄭敬請問卓院長一個問題再生能源的成本是需要考量的沒有錯可是重要我們知道核電的成本這部分你看到的是請問您知道核電是唯一的後端處理基金都已經計入電價的能源嗎CPT請出現核核端的基金有累積相當對\n有放進去嘛 對不對所以他現在的價格已經是像剛才那張圖上呈現出來的是不是才一點多塊錢而且他已經加入到這個計價當中把唯一後端的處理基金放進去除了處理之外 他呈現的安全上的考量\n是我們要優先考量所以我們是說有核安有核廢的處理還有全民的高度共識是我們對現在傳統能源的看法以及我們對新式能源願意來接觸的一個態度沒有錯你這樣講再把你的政策宣示一下是好事情但是我們現在繼續看到但是在目前的部分我們看到的是剛才就出現到在撥補台電1000億的招商的這個情況之下\n你自己說的調整電價呢恐釀成呢就是三個一千億之後呢就會調整電價會讓人物價的上漲但是這民眾看起來就是怎麼樣就是你在恐嚇民眾這一部分因為在野黨的部分沒有刪就是把它刪除掉了再說你們刪除了不去做撥補了之後那會有上漲電價還會有造成物價上漲其實就像剛才我說的整個大片的過程當中就是\n就是一個誇大的一個說法之後然後事實上面不是造成這樣然後最後造成了災損當然我們很清楚的知道我們今天我用這個方式教訓大家講的是卓榮泰政府所做的示威是一個當然是一個政府但是他最重要的是他所做的行為其實跟詐騙集團的思想法是很相近的我覺得剛剛那句話的邏輯應該是很簡單一般人都會懂因為他就是一個邏輯\n我們敢讓台電的財務狀況比較健全我在電價審議委員會裡面的討論他就會認為台電可以抑制但如果不是的話電價委員會有他的考量我現在讓你看看下一頁的地方我們看到到2019年2019年\n對 說109年 2020年的時候蔡總統在說了2050、2025年的時候再生能源可以創造1兆的投資額1.2兆的產值跟2萬個工作機會他要把台灣打造成亞洲的綠能發展中心那這個地方是他2020年說的那我們繼續往下看我們現在風電的增加量\n經濟部統治 我們風電的增加量那個時候到現在是世界第一位但我們不是以此自滿我們要做更多安全的能源分布所以您就講到 就算是這樣子也只要部分可是其他的工作機會產值這些部分通通一直講到再生能力 現在只講到風電再生能力有非常多種所以我們繼續講就是你是誇大不實的這部分就跟詐騙警察所做的很相近第二部分我們在看到的是\n上個月本席在活客會的這個質詢當中呈現到說要他呈現做科學園區的用水用電包括是再生能源是不是能夠供應到台灣的科學園區的需求結果拿到三頁的這樣的內容事實上就看出來的是對於再生能源的供應他沒有說得清楚更重要的是在下一個部分看到的是在科學園區的部分我們看到這張圖是非常重要的\n可以看到在生能源發展這邊呈現出來的是支持資料在2025年的時候是330億度左右這部分好那我們可以看到是台積電它本身在台灣就要用到250億度電\n所以我們要增加開發更多的再生能源\n是沒錯但是我跟你講現在謝謝院長但是我們繼續往下看同樣的可能又是在騙局的製造了我們看看這張圖當中呈現出來的\n我可以為了事實上面呈現出來是說在現在的電網問題在上面不生產出來但是你要把輸電輸到廠商那邊去啊可是在我可能網站當中呈現出來是所有的網路的潰線的部分呢再生能源網站呢再生能源的電網最多到203年2032年之後才能達成7年之後所以現在在這能源是\n所以我們要求拜託給台電多一點支持就是讓他增加電網的韌性時間暫停\n委員 容許我提醒一下我們今天根據職宣刑事法第17條邀請行政院率委員來報告題目是打詐策略那個 院長我們有考慮過這個問題我說明一下因為本身\n行政院就是一個非常重要的一個能夠讓人家信任而且能夠說你在政策部分所以這部分如果本身卓院長行政院的部分他本身就是一個製造謊言 製造誇大言辭甚至還造成人民財損他本身不是最大的一個製造中心嗎我想就尊重容我提醒你 如果說你針對能源問題我們立法院大家形成共識再請卓院長來報告能源問題\n我觉得这样子比较名符相识好那我可以很快吗能源我觉得这个名符不是我们很多过去\n有可能雞飛塵世如果特別提醒你我希望你還是能夠回到我們請卓院長來的今天主題打炸七列策略好不好謝謝請繼續謝謝韓院長才是好那是我尊重那個院長的這樣的但是我這邊部分有一個很快的就會帶過去好不好那這地方我們看到是剛才再生能源的部分有包括的是有再生能源但是我們可以看到的是再生能源因為往\n往潰線的部分的一個差異性所以他沒辦法供給那最重要是剛才的部分大家就知道再生能源當中中午的9點到下午的2點當中就是非常多的一個潰線的部分非常多的再生能源但是這部分台電就是要不費給到發電業者去了\n台電負責半夜月整這就是那其他部分在晚上的跟凌晨的時候呢就是會補上的這邊有火力去就是造成的台電虧損最重要的原因那我再必須從企業部分去講的是在於企業部分看到他還是要要複合他國外去做出口的時候他必須要有再生能源憑證那我們繼續往下看\n可是再生能源憑證他必須要能夠這個電力呢是能夠真的有用的目前台灣的再生能源的憑證當中因為會線真的沒辦法到達所以他只能在台灣用但是最像台積電其他的\n廠商他輸出國外的有外銷的部分他就沒辦法達到國際間的再生能源憑證那就會出現到非常大的問題就是說台灣現在的再生能源的環境並沒有去撐他的對他的這個在國際間的出口是有幫助的他沒辦法達到廠商的需求這部分更重要的還有一個部分再生能源剛才已經說了是\n屬於一般的我們它的再生能源可是現在最重要的在於說再生能源如果到二再生能源它的量的話其實越受制於地形當地環境的差異性更重要的現在是要有所謂的非碳的全時的24小時7天能夠用的這樣子的一個能源在它才能夠因應國際間的需求但是這部分也是由聯合國跟國際能源總署跟產業客戶所達成的這樣一個部分\n我們繼續再往下看在這個情況之前的國科會也提到了在廠商的外移這邊我們看到台積電的外移是非常重要的台積電的外移到我們方向雖然涉及到了關稅的問題雖然關稅的問題可是更重要的是台積電沒說的事實大家往下看到這個部分在全球的分布當中台積電要去\n德國了德國他德國完整的跟他講可以的我們可以百分之百的供應到再生能源但日本的部分呢在熊本那但是他是用九州的這個整個電網裡面供應他也是再生能源也是沒有問題的然後在亞利桑那當中呢這個整個州這部分核能\n因為供給他在積載電力之後他的再生能源也是可以的那最重要的是要跟大家講的是當芬蘭呢這個是大家知道北歐是非常重要的一個重視環保的國家他現在更是全世界第二大的這個核電生產國那降低了75%的一個建價成本這部分也是供參考\n當然這部分我們的銀長佐的現在代表進到芬蘭去了這部分可是他在那邊如果有機會跟全民的這個共樂的時候可以講到說這部分他在一個核電這麼高的地方事實上是要去了解到的那最重要講到這邊的部分是要跟大家跟院長你要做一個資訊\n因為您行政院民進黨的這個政府當中呢就是為了政策選票在說謊誇大不實的然後找出錯誤的一個政策出現導致的國家的財損還會繼續台電的擴大那企業就不敢出走包括我剛才說的台積電是一個非常典型的例子因為剛才所說的台積台灣並沒有辦法提供的這樣足夠的再生能源如果又沒有所謂的非碳的電力而且24小時7天的去這樣做是不行的\n所以在剛才的這部分詐騙的一個行為當中就是誇大不實事實上跟相反然後還包括是後面這部分那當然就說人民就會覺得您就是民進黨政府可能就是一個非常大的一個詐騙期的也就是因為這樣的情況之下他沒有辦法去得到信念包括剛才的\n胡志強我也說了當你的心思沒有完全在你的政策的上面大大增這個效果那我們繼續看到的是目前台灣最大的民怨是什麼是對等關稅能源問題跟詐騙跟詐騙的問題那因為缺乏政府人民缺乏對政府的信任只想優點的這個謊言而且忽視財產這個事實那老實講就是一個詐騙這種情形那這個地方怎麼去改變呢\n打詐最重要在這裡就是希望是說包括的是希望在這邊我們繼續往下看的是希望能夠誠實的拿去處理對不起委員你剛剛的這一席講話不僅違反院長的才識也完全沒有邏輯我實在沒有辦法理解好 謝謝謝謝謝謝委員辛苦了 劉書斌委員謝謝好 謝謝你的質詢也謝謝卓院長相關首長的備詢 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.049 --> 00:01.630\n主席好請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n\n00:34.858 --> 00:57.227\n劉委員好院長好那本席今天就行政院的打詐政策跟民進黨政府的誠信問題還造成的財損的部分來請教於您再來我們看一下民進黨在109年的時候就宣告了打詐原理那您去年就任就已經通過了打詐的新的四法\n\n00:57.927 --> 01:15.440\n那也後來有2.0的版本也出現了但是呢我們可以看到到上個月的財損還是到85.4億那麼下一頁我們可以看到的是這個每天都還超過了2億的這樣的一個財損那這個是最重要的在本黨的一個\n\n01:18.029 --> 01:40.502\n診斷當中發現到最重要的成效有限是因為民眾對政府的誠信充滿了不信任施政就有過度的包裝跟話術的問題我們現在就繼續往下看行政院你自己本身的打詐架構當中有了市詐堵詐防詐阻詐跟懲詐的部分當然最重要的是市詐請問您\n\n01:42.443 --> 01:47.219\n院長這四五個步驟裡面哪一個是最重要的是不是市長\n\n01:48.137 --> 02:16.267\n每一個環節都重要有源頭到下游全部都重要有市詐就會降低案件的發生好我覺得是從第一步來講沒錯第一步你說的市詐非常重要所以我們就必須要了解市詐的重點是什麼包括你的打詐成果包括你常常說要強調源頭管理那我們現在看到市詐竟然是預防於先我們看到基本內容當中詐騙本身有幾個部分第一個部分就是\n\n02:17.047 --> 02:39.439\n誇大的謊言製造第二個部分是設計騙局第三個是導致財損這是非常重要的情況那我們就繼續來看那就用這樣的架構我們就來看看民進黨本身你卓院長的這個政策幫他們看到好多項包括的是在看到的是在財化法當中造成的非常多的一個民怨還包括在\n\n02:40.299 --> 02:58.712\n重視到光電呢但是卻造成台南的這個光電爐炸案這郭齋清的這個非法的掩埋等等還有包括21的這個非法獲利那我們再往下一頁看到的是特別是在現在進入到非核家園強調的達成了但是20%的要再生能源\n\n02:59.612 --> 03:22.712\n那又看到的是但是實際上在現在只有16%的再生能源部分還造成了很多的影響企業的配電我們再繼續往下看看到的是在這次的颱風當中有出現到了這麼多的光電海溫新溫光電廠當中12天之內都還沒有再清洗我們繼續再往下看的時候他都已經清理完畢在集中在一個站置場上\n\n03:23.995 --> 03:45.789\n對但是還是沒有處理完備好這部分我們繼續往下看這一部分呢民進黨的話術這邊就呈現到在20242025我們再看看這次的颱風當中呢也強調說風光發電瞬間的這個風速呢是非常高到15.2%等等的但事實上這些的剛才說那兩個在台南跟嘉義的光電呢通通都是屬於\n\n03:47.011 --> 03:54.405\n在清理的部分包括之前用實驗性的都要花到3到5億這部分然後還要造成的環境的汙染\n\n03:55.526 --> 04:23.971\n大家可以看到的是剛才所說的部分可以看到是一個誇大的說很好很好光電很好這真的有它的好處但是被誇大了看到這部分造成了災損的部分我們看往下的這部分好那繼續再想到在再生能源的部分行政院長主任院長你在當初有呈到說在2024的時候2024的時候這個新聞當中你說的再生能源的這個成本一定會降下來那\n\n04:24.711 --> 04:42.941\n這一部分我們可以看到是根本就經不起在風災上面的檢驗根本還沒有準備好那測試當中呢還沒有準備好發電都已經有虧損的這個情況出現了報告委員風災檢驗不堪一擊這句話實驗性質的設備吧可能要調整一下\n\n04:47.472 --> 05:05.226\n不需要我現在就說事實上我們看到就是我剛剛特別是指剛剛那兩個那兩個的養魚重電的場合所以沒有問題好那我們繼續往下看以現在台電我們看到的發電成本的數據來看在最近的台電的網站當中所呈現的這個數據當中呢平均的\n\n05:06.787 --> 05:33.421\n發電購電成本是3.19但是再生能源還是到5.6我覺得是特別是針對到外部的購電的成本這些部分好那我們知道的是請問鄭敬請問卓院長一個問題再生能源的成本是需要考量的沒有錯可是重要我們知道核電的成本這部分你看到的是請問您知道核電是唯一的後端處理基金都已經計入電價的能源嗎CPT請出現核核端的基金有累積相當對\n\n05:35.131 --> 05:52.473\n有放進去嘛對不對所以他現在的價格已經是像剛才那張圖上呈現出來的是不是才一點多塊錢而且他已經加入到這個計價當中把唯一後端的處理基金放進去除了處理之外他呈現的安全上的考量\n\n05:52.833 --> 06:17.627\n是我們要優先考量所以我們是說有核安有核廢的處理還有全民的高度共識是我們對現在傳統能源的看法以及我們對新式能源願意來接觸的一個態度沒有錯你這樣講再把你的政策宣示一下是好事情但是我們現在繼續看到但是在目前的部分我們看到的是剛才就出現到在撥補台電1000億的招商的這個情況之下\n\n06:18.807 --> 06:47.987\n你自己說的調整電價呢恐釀成呢就是三個一千億之後呢就會調整電價會讓人物價的上漲但是這民眾看起來就是怎麼樣就是你在恐嚇民眾這一部分因為在野黨的部分沒有刪就是把它刪除掉了再說你們刪除了不去做撥補了之後那會有上漲電價還會有造成物價上漲其實就像剛才我說的整個大片的過程當中就是\n\n06:48.907 --> 07:15.928\n就是一個誇大的一個說法之後然後事實上面不是造成這樣然後最後造成了災損當然我們很清楚的知道我們今天我用這個方式教訓大家講的是卓榮泰政府所做的示威是一個當然是一個政府但是他最重要的是他所做的行為其實跟詐騙集團的思想法是很相近的我覺得剛剛那句話的邏輯應該是很簡單一般人都會懂因為他就是一個邏輯\n\n07:17.148 --> 07:32.601\n我們敢讓台電的財務狀況比較健全我在電價審議委員會裡面的討論他就會認為台電可以抑制但如果不是的話電價委員會有他的考量我現在讓你看看下一頁的地方我們看到到2019年2019年\n\n07:36.003 --> 08:00.770\n對說109年2020年的時候蔡總統在說了2050、2025年的時候再生能源可以創造1兆的投資額1.2兆的產值跟2萬個工作機會他要把台灣打造成亞洲的綠能發展中心那這個地方是他2020年說的那我們繼續往下看我們現在風電的增加量\n\n08:02.349 --> 08:26.327\n經濟部統治我們風電的增加量那個時候到現在是世界第一位但我們不是以此自滿我們要做更多安全的能源分布所以您就講到就算是這樣子也只要部分可是其他的工作機會產值這些部分通通一直講到再生能力現在只講到風電再生能力有非常多種所以我們繼續講就是你是誇大不實的這部分就跟詐騙警察所做的很相近第二部分我們在看到的是\n\n08:27.248 --> 08:53.535\n上個月本席在活客會的這個質詢當中呈現到說要他呈現做科學園區的用水用電包括是再生能源是不是能夠供應到台灣的科學園區的需求結果拿到三頁的這樣的內容事實上就看出來的是對於再生能源的供應他沒有說得清楚更重要的是在下一個部分看到的是在科學園區的部分我們看到這張圖是非常重要的\n\n08:54.415 --> 09:07.749\n可以看到在生能源發展這邊呈現出來的是支持資料在2025年的時候是330億度左右這部分好那我們可以看到是台積電它本身在台灣就要用到250億度電\n\n09:10.202 --> 09:11.982\n所以我們要增加開發更多的再生能源\n\n09:39.162 --> 09:48.935\n是沒錯但是我跟你講現在謝謝院長但是我們繼續往下看同樣的可能又是在騙局的製造了我們看看這張圖當中呈現出來的\n\n09:50.896 --> 10:14.019\n我可以為了事實上面呈現出來是說在現在的電網問題在上面不生產出來但是你要把輸電輸到廠商那邊去啊可是在我可能網站當中呈現出來是所有的網路的潰線的部分呢再生能源網站呢再生能源的電網最多到203年2032年之後才能達成7年之後所以現在在這能源是\n\n10:15.240 --> 10:18.842\n所以我們要求拜託給台電多一點支持就是讓他增加電網的韌性時間暫停\n\n10:38.035 --> 10:52.303\n委員容許我提醒一下我們今天根據職宣刑事法第17條邀請行政院率委員來報告題目是打詐策略那個院長我們有考慮過這個問題我說明一下因為本身\n\n10:53.737 --> 11:21.414\n行政院就是一個非常重要的一個能夠讓人家信任而且能夠說你在政策部分所以這部分如果本身卓院長行政院的部分他本身就是一個製造謊言製造誇大言辭甚至還造成人民財損他本身不是最大的一個製造中心嗎我想就尊重容我提醒你如果說你針對能源問題我們立法院大家形成共識再請卓院長來報告能源問題\n\n11:22.395 --> 11:30.665\n我觉得这样子比较名符相识好那我可以很快吗能源我觉得这个名符不是我们很多过去\n\n11:31.144 --> 11:56.662\n有可能雞飛塵世如果特別提醒你我希望你還是能夠回到我們請卓院長來的今天主題打炸七列策略好不好謝謝請繼續謝謝韓院長才是好那是我尊重那個院長的這樣的但是我這邊部分有一個很快的就會帶過去好不好那這地方我們看到是剛才再生能源的部分有包括的是有再生能源但是我們可以看到的是再生能源因為往\n\n11:57.483 --> 12:16.381\n往潰線的部分的一個差異性所以他沒辦法供給那最重要是剛才的部分大家就知道再生能源當中中午的9點到下午的2點當中就是非常多的一個潰線的部分非常多的再生能源但是這部分台電就是要不費給到發電業者去了\n\n12:17.102 --> 12:36.469\n台電負責半夜月整這就是那其他部分在晚上的跟凌晨的時候呢就是會補上的這邊有火力去就是造成的台電虧損最重要的原因那我再必須從企業部分去講的是在於企業部分看到他還是要要複合他國外去做出口的時候他必須要有再生能源憑證那我們繼續往下看\n\n12:37.009 --> 12:50.335\n可是再生能源憑證他必須要能夠這個電力呢是能夠真的有用的目前台灣的再生能源的憑證當中因為會線真的沒辦法到達所以他只能在台灣用但是最像台積電其他的\n\n12:52.040 --> 13:15.635\n廠商他輸出國外的有外銷的部分他就沒辦法達到國際間的再生能源憑證那就會出現到非常大的問題就是說台灣現在的再生能源的環境並沒有去撐他的對他的這個在國際間的出口是有幫助的他沒辦法達到廠商的需求這部分更重要的還有一個部分再生能源剛才已經說了是\n\n13:16.716 --> 13:43.186\n屬於一般的我們它的再生能源可是現在最重要的在於說再生能源如果到二再生能源它的量的話其實越受制於地形當地環境的差異性更重要的現在是要有所謂的非碳的全時的24小時7天能夠用的這樣子的一個能源在它才能夠因應國際間的需求但是這部分也是由聯合國跟國際能源總署跟產業客戶所達成的這樣一個部分\n\n13:43.706 --> 14:04.785\n我們繼續再往下看在這個情況之前的國科會也提到了在廠商的外移這邊我們看到台積電的外移是非常重要的台積電的外移到我們方向雖然涉及到了關稅的問題雖然關稅的問題可是更重要的是台積電沒說的事實大家往下看到這個部分在全球的分布當中台積電要去\n\n14:06.431 --> 14:27.914\n德國了德國他德國完整的跟他講可以的我們可以百分之百的供應到再生能源但日本的部分呢在熊本那但是他是用九州的這個整個電網裡面供應他也是再生能源也是沒有問題的然後在亞利桑那當中呢這個整個州這部分核能\n\n14:29.075 --> 14:48.221\n因為供給他在積載電力之後他的再生能源也是可以的那最重要的是要跟大家講的是當芬蘭呢這個是大家知道北歐是非常重要的一個重視環保的國家他現在更是全世界第二大的這個核電生產國那降低了75%的一個建價成本這部分也是供參考\n\n14:49.401 --> 15:08.767\n當然這部分我們的銀長佐的現在代表進到芬蘭去了這部分可是他在那邊如果有機會跟全民的這個共樂的時候可以講到說這部分他在一個核電這麼高的地方事實上是要去了解到的那最重要講到這邊的部分是要跟大家跟院長你要做一個資訊\n\n15:10.467 --> 15:37.913\n因為您行政院民進黨的這個政府當中呢就是為了政策選票在說謊誇大不實的然後找出錯誤的一個政策出現導致的國家的財損還會繼續台電的擴大那企業就不敢出走包括我剛才說的台積電是一個非常典型的例子因為剛才所說的台積台灣並沒有辦法提供的這樣足夠的再生能源如果又沒有所謂的非碳的電力而且24小時7天的去這樣做是不行的\n\n15:38.473 --> 15:58.422\n所以在剛才的這部分詐騙的一個行為當中就是誇大不實事實上跟相反然後還包括是後面這部分那當然就說人民就會覺得您就是民進黨政府可能就是一個非常大的一個詐騙期的也就是因為這樣的情況之下他沒有辦法去得到信念包括剛才的\n\n16:00.336 --> 16:25.823\n胡志強我也說了當你的心思沒有完全在你的政策的上面大大增這個效果那我們繼續看到的是目前台灣最大的民怨是什麼是對等關稅能源問題跟詐騙跟詐騙的問題那因為缺乏政府人民缺乏對政府的信任只想優點的這個謊言而且忽視財產這個事實那老實講就是一個詐騙這種情形那這個地方怎麼去改變呢\n\n16:26.943 --> 16:51.514\n打詐最重要在這裡就是希望是說包括的是希望在這邊我們繼續往下看的是希望能夠誠實的拿去處理對不起委員你剛剛的這一席講話不僅違反院長的才識也完全沒有邏輯我實在沒有辦法理解好謝謝謝謝謝謝委員辛苦了劉書斌委員謝謝好謝謝你的質詢也謝謝卓院長相關首長的備詢謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.049,"end":1.63,"text":"主席好 請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":34.858,"end":57.227,"text":"劉委員好 院長好那本席今天就行政院的打詐政策跟民進黨政府的誠信問題還造成的財損的部分來請教於您再來我們看一下民進黨在109年的時候就宣告了打詐原理那您去年就任就已經通過了打詐的新的四法"},{"start":57.927,"end":75.44,"text":"那也後來有2.0的版本也出現了但是呢我們可以看到到上個月的財損還是到85.4億那麼下一頁我們可以看到的是這個每天都還超過了2億的這樣的一個財損那這個是最重要的在本黨的一個"},{"start":78.029,"end":100.502,"text":"診斷當中發現到最重要的成效有限是因為民眾對政府的誠信充滿了不信任施政就有過度的包裝跟話術的問題我們現在就繼續往下看行政院你自己本身的打詐架構當中有了市詐 堵詐 防詐 阻詐跟懲詐的部分當然最重要的是市詐請問您"},{"start":102.443,"end":107.219,"text":"院長這四五個步驟裡面哪一個是最重要的是不是市長"},{"start":108.137,"end":136.267,"text":"每一個環節都重要有源頭到下游 全部都重要有市詐就會降低案件的發生好 我覺得是從第一步來講沒錯 第一步你說的市詐非常重要所以我們就必須要了解市詐的重點是什麼包括你的打詐成果包括你常常說要強調源頭管理那我們現在看到市詐竟然是預防於先我們看到基本內容當中詐騙本身有幾個部分第一個部分就是"},{"start":137.047,"end":159.439,"text":"誇大的謊言製造第二個部分是設計騙局第三個是導致財損這是非常重要的情況那我們就繼續來看那就用這樣的架構我們就來看看民進黨本身你卓院長的這個政策幫他們看到好多項包括的是在看到的是在財化法當中造成的非常多的一個民怨還包括在"},{"start":160.299,"end":178.712,"text":"重視到光電呢但是卻造成台南的這個光電爐炸案這郭齋清的這個非法的掩埋等等還有包括21的這個非法獲利那我們再往下一頁看到的是特別是在現在進入到非核家園強調的達成了但是20%的要再生能源"},{"start":179.612,"end":202.712,"text":"那又看到的是但是實際上在現在只有16%的再生能源部分還造成了很多的影響企業的配電我們再繼續往下看看到的是在這次的颱風當中有出現到了這麼多的光電海溫 新溫光電廠當中12天之內都還沒有再清洗我們繼續再往下看的時候他都已經清理完畢在集中在一個站置場上"},{"start":203.995,"end":225.789,"text":"對但是還是沒有處理完備好這部分我們繼續往下看這一部分呢民進黨的話術這邊就呈現到在20242025我們再看看這次的颱風當中呢也強調說風光發電瞬間的這個風速呢是非常高到15.2%等等的但事實上這些的剛才說那兩個在台南跟嘉義的光電呢通通都是屬於"},{"start":227.011,"end":234.405,"text":"在清理的部分包括之前用實驗性的都要花到3到5億這部分然後還要造成的環境的汙染"},{"start":235.526,"end":263.971,"text":"大家可以看到的是剛才所說的部分可以看到是一個誇大的說很好很好光電很好這真的有它的好處但是被誇大了看到這部分造成了災損的部分我們看往下的這部分好那繼續再想到在再生能源的部分行政院長主任院長你在當初有呈到說在2024的時候2024的時候這個新聞當中你說的再生能源的這個成本一定會降下來那"},{"start":264.711,"end":282.941,"text":"這一部分我們可以看到是根本就經不起在風災上面的檢驗根本還沒有準備好那測試當中呢還沒有準備好發電都已經有虧損的這個情況出現了報告委員風災檢驗不堪一擊這句話實驗性質的設備吧可能要調整一下"},{"start":287.472,"end":305.226,"text":"不需要我現在就說事實上我們看到就是我剛剛特別是指剛剛那兩個那兩個的養魚重電的場合所以沒有問題好那我們繼續往下看以現在台電我們看到的發電成本的數據來看在最近的台電的網站當中所呈現的這個數據當中呢平均的"},{"start":306.787,"end":333.421,"text":"發電購電成本是3.19但是再生能源還是到5.6我覺得是特別是針對到外部的購電的成本這些部分好那我們知道的是請問鄭敬請問卓院長一個問題再生能源的成本是需要考量的沒有錯可是重要我們知道核電的成本這部分你看到的是請問您知道核電是唯一的後端處理基金都已經計入電價的能源嗎CPT請出現核核端的基金有累積相當對"},{"start":335.131,"end":352.473,"text":"有放進去嘛 對不對所以他現在的價格已經是像剛才那張圖上呈現出來的是不是才一點多塊錢而且他已經加入到這個計價當中把唯一後端的處理基金放進去除了處理之外 他呈現的安全上的考量"},{"start":352.833,"end":377.627,"text":"是我們要優先考量所以我們是說有核安有核廢的處理還有全民的高度共識是我們對現在傳統能源的看法以及我們對新式能源願意來接觸的一個態度沒有錯你這樣講再把你的政策宣示一下是好事情但是我們現在繼續看到但是在目前的部分我們看到的是剛才就出現到在撥補台電1000億的招商的這個情況之下"},{"start":378.807,"end":407.987,"text":"你自己說的調整電價呢恐釀成呢就是三個一千億之後呢就會調整電價會讓人物價的上漲但是這民眾看起來就是怎麼樣就是你在恐嚇民眾這一部分因為在野黨的部分沒有刪就是把它刪除掉了再說你們刪除了不去做撥補了之後那會有上漲電價還會有造成物價上漲其實就像剛才我說的整個大片的過程當中就是"},{"start":408.907,"end":435.928,"text":"就是一個誇大的一個說法之後然後事實上面不是造成這樣然後最後造成了災損當然我們很清楚的知道我們今天我用這個方式教訓大家講的是卓榮泰政府所做的示威是一個當然是一個政府但是他最重要的是他所做的行為其實跟詐騙集團的思想法是很相近的我覺得剛剛那句話的邏輯應該是很簡單一般人都會懂因為他就是一個邏輯"},{"start":437.148,"end":452.601,"text":"我們敢讓台電的財務狀況比較健全我在電價審議委員會裡面的討論他就會認為台電可以抑制但如果不是的話電價委員會有他的考量我現在讓你看看下一頁的地方我們看到到2019年2019年"},{"start":456.003,"end":480.77,"text":"對 說109年 2020年的時候蔡總統在說了2050、2025年的時候再生能源可以創造1兆的投資額1.2兆的產值跟2萬個工作機會他要把台灣打造成亞洲的綠能發展中心那這個地方是他2020年說的那我們繼續往下看我們現在風電的增加量"},{"start":482.349,"end":506.327,"text":"經濟部統治 我們風電的增加量那個時候到現在是世界第一位但我們不是以此自滿我們要做更多安全的能源分布所以您就講到 就算是這樣子也只要部分可是其他的工作機會產值這些部分通通一直講到再生能力 現在只講到風電再生能力有非常多種所以我們繼續講就是你是誇大不實的這部分就跟詐騙警察所做的很相近第二部分我們在看到的是"},{"start":507.248,"end":533.535,"text":"上個月本席在活客會的這個質詢當中呈現到說要他呈現做科學園區的用水用電包括是再生能源是不是能夠供應到台灣的科學園區的需求結果拿到三頁的這樣的內容事實上就看出來的是對於再生能源的供應他沒有說得清楚更重要的是在下一個部分看到的是在科學園區的部分我們看到這張圖是非常重要的"},{"start":534.415,"end":547.749,"text":"可以看到在生能源發展這邊呈現出來的是支持資料在2025年的時候是330億度左右這部分好那我們可以看到是台積電它本身在台灣就要用到250億度電"},{"start":550.202,"end":551.982,"text":"所以我們要增加開發更多的再生能源"},{"start":579.162,"end":588.935,"text":"是沒錯但是我跟你講現在謝謝院長但是我們繼續往下看同樣的可能又是在騙局的製造了我們看看這張圖當中呈現出來的"},{"start":590.896,"end":614.019,"text":"我可以為了事實上面呈現出來是說在現在的電網問題在上面不生產出來但是你要把輸電輸到廠商那邊去啊可是在我可能網站當中呈現出來是所有的網路的潰線的部分呢再生能源網站呢再生能源的電網最多到203年2032年之後才能達成7年之後所以現在在這能源是"},{"start":615.24,"end":618.842,"text":"所以我們要求拜託給台電多一點支持就是讓他增加電網的韌性時間暫停"},{"start":638.035,"end":652.303,"text":"委員 容許我提醒一下我們今天根據職宣刑事法第17條邀請行政院率委員來報告題目是打詐策略那個 院長我們有考慮過這個問題我說明一下因為本身"},{"start":653.737,"end":681.414,"text":"行政院就是一個非常重要的一個能夠讓人家信任而且能夠說你在政策部分所以這部分如果本身卓院長行政院的部分他本身就是一個製造謊言 製造誇大言辭甚至還造成人民財損他本身不是最大的一個製造中心嗎我想就尊重容我提醒你 如果說你針對能源問題我們立法院大家形成共識再請卓院長來報告能源問題"},{"start":682.395,"end":690.665,"text":"我觉得这样子比较名符相识好那我可以很快吗能源我觉得这个名符不是我们很多过去"},{"start":691.144,"end":716.662,"text":"有可能雞飛塵世如果特別提醒你我希望你還是能夠回到我們請卓院長來的今天主題打炸七列策略好不好謝謝請繼續謝謝韓院長才是好那是我尊重那個院長的這樣的但是我這邊部分有一個很快的就會帶過去好不好那這地方我們看到是剛才再生能源的部分有包括的是有再生能源但是我們可以看到的是再生能源因為往"},{"start":717.483,"end":736.381,"text":"往潰線的部分的一個差異性所以他沒辦法供給那最重要是剛才的部分大家就知道再生能源當中中午的9點到下午的2點當中就是非常多的一個潰線的部分非常多的再生能源但是這部分台電就是要不費給到發電業者去了"},{"start":737.102,"end":756.469,"text":"台電負責半夜月整這就是那其他部分在晚上的跟凌晨的時候呢就是會補上的這邊有火力去就是造成的台電虧損最重要的原因那我再必須從企業部分去講的是在於企業部分看到他還是要要複合他國外去做出口的時候他必須要有再生能源憑證那我們繼續往下看"},{"start":757.009,"end":770.335,"text":"可是再生能源憑證他必須要能夠這個電力呢是能夠真的有用的目前台灣的再生能源的憑證當中因為會線真的沒辦法到達所以他只能在台灣用但是最像台積電其他的"},{"start":772.04,"end":795.635,"text":"廠商他輸出國外的有外銷的部分他就沒辦法達到國際間的再生能源憑證那就會出現到非常大的問題就是說台灣現在的再生能源的環境並沒有去撐他的對他的這個在國際間的出口是有幫助的他沒辦法達到廠商的需求這部分更重要的還有一個部分再生能源剛才已經說了是"},{"start":796.716,"end":823.186,"text":"屬於一般的我們它的再生能源可是現在最重要的在於說再生能源如果到二再生能源它的量的話其實越受制於地形當地環境的差異性更重要的現在是要有所謂的非碳的全時的24小時7天能夠用的這樣子的一個能源在它才能夠因應國際間的需求但是這部分也是由聯合國跟國際能源總署跟產業客戶所達成的這樣一個部分"},{"start":823.706,"end":844.785,"text":"我們繼續再往下看在這個情況之前的國科會也提到了在廠商的外移這邊我們看到台積電的外移是非常重要的台積電的外移到我們方向雖然涉及到了關稅的問題雖然關稅的問題可是更重要的是台積電沒說的事實大家往下看到這個部分在全球的分布當中台積電要去"},{"start":846.431,"end":867.914,"text":"德國了德國他德國完整的跟他講可以的我們可以百分之百的供應到再生能源但日本的部分呢在熊本那但是他是用九州的這個整個電網裡面供應他也是再生能源也是沒有問題的然後在亞利桑那當中呢這個整個州這部分核能"},{"start":869.075,"end":888.221,"text":"因為供給他在積載電力之後他的再生能源也是可以的那最重要的是要跟大家講的是當芬蘭呢這個是大家知道北歐是非常重要的一個重視環保的國家他現在更是全世界第二大的這個核電生產國那降低了75%的一個建價成本這部分也是供參考"},{"start":889.401,"end":908.767,"text":"當然這部分我們的銀長佐的現在代表進到芬蘭去了這部分可是他在那邊如果有機會跟全民的這個共樂的時候可以講到說這部分他在一個核電這麼高的地方事實上是要去了解到的那最重要講到這邊的部分是要跟大家跟院長你要做一個資訊"},{"start":910.467,"end":937.913,"text":"因為您行政院民進黨的這個政府當中呢就是為了政策選票在說謊誇大不實的然後找出錯誤的一個政策出現導致的國家的財損還會繼續台電的擴大那企業就不敢出走包括我剛才說的台積電是一個非常典型的例子因為剛才所說的台積台灣並沒有辦法提供的這樣足夠的再生能源如果又沒有所謂的非碳的電力而且24小時7天的去這樣做是不行的"},{"start":938.473,"end":958.422,"text":"所以在剛才的這部分詐騙的一個行為當中就是誇大不實事實上跟相反然後還包括是後面這部分那當然就說人民就會覺得您就是民進黨政府可能就是一個非常大的一個詐騙期的也就是因為這樣的情況之下他沒有辦法去得到信念包括剛才的"},{"start":960.336,"end":985.823,"text":"胡志強我也說了當你的心思沒有完全在你的政策的上面大大增這個效果那我們繼續看到的是目前台灣最大的民怨是什麼是對等關稅能源問題跟詐騙跟詐騙的問題那因為缺乏政府人民缺乏對政府的信任只想優點的這個謊言而且忽視財產這個事實那老實講就是一個詐騙這種情形那這個地方怎麼去改變呢"},{"start":986.943,"end":1011.514,"text":"打詐最重要在這裡就是希望是說包括的是希望在這邊我們繼續往下看的是希望能夠誠實的拿去處理對不起委員你剛剛的這一席講話不僅違反院長的才識也完全沒有邏輯我實在沒有辦法理解好 謝謝謝謝謝謝委員辛苦了 劉書斌委員謝謝好 謝謝你的質詢也謝謝卓院長相關首長的備詢 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1928,"blocks":[["劉委員書彬：（11時25分）主席好，請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：劉委員好。"],["劉委員書彬：院長好。本席今天就行政院的打詐政策跟民進黨政府的誠信問題，還有造成財損的部分來請教您。我們看一下民進黨在109年的時候，就宣告了打詐元年，您去年就任就已經通過了「打詐新4法」嘛！後來2.0的版本也出現了，但是我們可以看到，到上個月的財損還是有85.4億；下一頁，我們可以看到每天都還是超過了2億的財損，最重要的在本黨的一個診斷當中，發現到打詐成效有限是因為民眾對政府誠信充滿了不信任，施政有過度包裝跟話術的問題。行政院自己本身的打詐組織架構當中，有識詐、堵詐、防詐、阻詐跟懲詐的部分，當然最重要的是識詐，請問院長這5個步驟裡面，哪一個是最重要的？是不是識詐？"],["卓院長榮泰：每一個環節都重要，由源頭到下游全部都重要，有識詐就會降低案件的發生，有懲詐才會有……"],["劉委員書彬：我知道，從第一步來講沒錯，第一部您說到識詐非常重要，所以我們就必須要來了解識詐的重點是什麼？包括打詐成果及你強調的源頭管理。我們現在看到識詐竟然預防於先，在識詐的基本內容當中，詐騙本身有幾個部分：第一個部分是誇大的謊言製造、第二個部分是設計騙局、第三個是導致財損，這是非常重要的情況。我們就用這樣的架構來看看民進黨本身及卓院長的相關政策，這當中看到很多項，包括在財劃法當中造成非常多的民怨，還包括雖重視光電，但是卻造成臺南的光電爐渣案，也就是郭再欽的非法掩埋，而非法獲利21億等等。","下一頁，特別看到的是現在進入到非核家園，執政黨強調2025年一定達成，但還要20%的再生能源。實際上，現在只有16%的再生能源，還造成了很多企業配電的影響。再繼續往下看，在這次的颱風當中，在新塭光電場有這麼多毀損的光電板，颱風後的12天都還沒有清理完。繼續再往下看……"],["卓院長榮泰：它都已經清理完畢，已經集中在一個暫置場。"],["劉委員書彬：對，但是它沒有處理完備。繼續往下看，在民進黨的話術呈現在2025年的這次颱風當中，強調風光發電瞬時最大值是非常高的，有到15.2%等等。但事實上，剛才提到的在臺南跟嘉義兩個光電場受損的光電板，在清理的預算部分，包括之前他們實驗性的都要花到3到5億不等，還造成環境污染。剛才所提的部分，大家可以看到是一個誇大的說法：很好、很好，光電很好。再生能源有它的好處，但是被誇大了，這部分造成很多的災損。我們往下看，在再生能源的部分，行政院卓榮泰院長你在當初在2024的這個新聞當中，就說再生能源的成本一定會降下來，這部分我們可以看到根本就禁不起在風災上面的檢驗，根本還沒有準備好。測試當中還沒有準備好發電，都已經有虧損的情況出現了……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，風災檢驗不堪一擊這句話，可能要調整一下……"],["劉委員書彬：實驗性質的設備吧！"],["卓院長榮泰：可能要調整一下。"],["劉委員書彬：不需要，事實上我們看到就是我特別指剛剛那兩個養魚種電的場合，所以沒有問題。我們繼續往下看。以現在台電的發電成本數據來看，在最近的台電網站所呈現的數據當中，平均的發電購電成本是3.19，但是再生能源還是到5.6，而且特別是針對外部的購電成本這些部分。請問卓院長一個問題，再生能源的成本是需要考量沒有錯，可是重要的是核電成本這部分，請問您知道核電是唯一的後端處理基金都已經計入電價的能源嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：核後端的基金有相當累積。"],["劉委員書彬：有放進去嘛！對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["劉委員書彬：所以它現在的價格已經像剛才那張圖上呈現出來的，是不是才一點多塊錢？而且它已經加入了這個計價當中，把後端處理基金放進去，這部分是不是這樣子？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，除了處理之外，它呈現的有關安全上的部分是我們要優先考量的，所以有核安、有核廢的處理，還有全民的高度共識，是我們現在對傳統能源的看法以及對新式能源願意接觸的一個態度。"],["劉委員書彬：好，沒有錯，你這樣講，再把你的政策宣示一下是好事情，但是我們現在繼續看剛才就出現的，在撥補台電1,000億遭刪的情況之下，院長，你自己說調整電價恐釀成……就是刪了1,000億之後會調整電價而釀成物價上漲，但是民眾看起來是怎麼樣？就是你在恐嚇民眾！因為在野黨對這部分把它刪除掉了，再來你們因刪除了、不做撥補之後，電價會上漲而造成物價上漲。就像剛才我說的，整個詐騙的過程當中，就是在一個誇大的說法之後而事實上不是這樣，最後造成了災損。當然，我們很清楚的知道，今天我用這個方式要跟大家講的是，卓榮泰政府所做的事……當然是一個政府，但是最重要的是他所做的行為，其實跟詐騙集團的手法是很相近的。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員剛剛那句話的邏輯應該是很簡單，一般人都會懂，因為它就是一個邏輯。我們讓台電的財務狀況比較健全，在電價審議委員會裡面的討論，就會認為台電可以抑制，但如果不是的話，電價委員會有它的考量……"],["劉委員書彬：好，沒問題，我現在讓你看下一頁，2020年蔡總統說2025年再生能源可以創造1兆的投資額、1.2兆的產值跟2萬個工作機會，把臺灣打造成「亞洲綠能發展中心」，這是他2020年說的，我們繼續往下看……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們現在風電的增加量，經經濟部統計那個時候到現在是世界第一位，但我們不是以此自滿，我們要做更多安全的能源分布。"],["劉委員書彬：就算是這樣子，也只要部分，可是其他的工作機會、產值等等通通……而且再生能源，你剛才只講到風電，再生能源有非常多種，所以你誇大不實的這部分，就跟詐騙集團所做的很相近。","第二部分，上個月本席在國科會的質詢當中，要他呈現科學園區的用水用電，包括再生能源是不是能夠供應臺灣科學園區的需求，結果拿到3頁這樣的內容，事實上看出來對於再生能源的供應，他沒辦法說清楚。更重要的是在下一個部分，看到的是在科學園區的部分，我們看到這張圖是非常重要的，可以看到再生能源發展在這邊呈現出來的事實資料，在2025年的時候是330億度左右，我們可以看到台積電本身在臺灣就要用到250億度電，如果在科學園區的話，事實上要更多了，而且目前只供應到25%的部分。如果到2030年的話再生能源是400億度，但台積電就要450億度，本身就不能供給台積電的需求，這地方就呈現了再生能源不足。卓院長，你知道再生能源不足，對廠商會有什麼樣的影響，尤其是外銷導向的？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們要開發更多的再生能源。"],["劉委員書彬：是，沒錯，但是我跟你講，同樣的可能又是在製造騙局了，我們看看這張圖呈現出來的是，現在的電網部分，再生能源生產不出來，但是你要把電輸到廠商那邊去，可是在國科會的網站呈現出來的是再生能源的電網要到2032年之後才能達成，7年之後，所以現在再生能源，對廠商而言是很大的問題，沒辦法達成的，饋線在科學園區的供應上是有問題的。還有很多事情沒說，我們繼續往下看。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們拜託給台電多一點支持，就是要增加電網的韌性。"],["劉委員書彬：但是現在就是不足，最重要的是，我現在看到再生能源的問題還包括下面這裡，可以看到的是……"],["主席：時間暫停，劉委員，容許我提醒一下，我們今天根據立法院職權行使法第十七條，邀請行政院院長率閣員來報告，題目是打詐策略。"],["劉委員書彬：院長，我們有考慮過這個問題，我說明一下，因為行政院就是一個非常重要的、要能夠讓人家信任，而且在政策部分要能夠說明的機關。"],["主席：我知道。"],["劉委員書彬：所以如果行政院、卓院長本身就在製造謊言，誇大其辭，甚至還造成人民財損，他本身不就是最大的一個詐騙中心嗎？我想就尊重……"],["主席：容我提醒你，如果你針對能源問題，我們立法院大家形成共識，再請卓院長來報告能源問題，我覺得這樣子比較名實相符。"],["劉委員書彬：好，我可以很快嗎？"],["主席：今天我們的題目是打詐，全部問到能源，我覺得這是名實不符，過去可能有很多積非成是，容我特別提醒你，我希望你還是能夠回到我們請卓院長來的主題打詐策略，好不好？謝謝，請繼續。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝韓院長裁示。"],["劉委員書彬：好，我尊重院長的裁示，但是我這部分很快的就會帶過去，好不好？這裡我們看到再生能源的部分，再生能源因為饋線網路的差異性，它沒辦法供給，最重要的是，大家都知道上午9點到下午2點當中，就是非常多的再生能源呈現出來，但是這個部分，台電就是要付費給發電業者，其他在晚上跟凌晨的時候，就是會補上火力發電，這就是造成台電虧損最重要的原因。我必須要從企業的部分去講，企業出口到國外的時候，必須要有再生能源憑證，可是再生能源憑證必須要這個電力是真正有用的，目前的再生能源憑證，因為饋線真的沒辦法到達，所以它只能在臺灣用，所以像台積電，輸出國外的、外銷的廠商就沒辦法拿到符合國際標準的再生能源憑證，那就會出現非常大的問題。臺灣現在的再生能源環境並沒有辦法去支撐廠商出口國際，沒辦法達到廠商的需求。更重要的還有一點，我剛才已經說了，再生能源是屬於一般的我們看到的再生能源，可是再生能源的量因為受制於地形，當地環境的差異性，更重要的是我們現在是要有所謂的非碳的、全時的、24小時、7天能夠用的能源，它可能要因應國際間的需求，但是這部分也是由聯合國、國際能源總署跟產業客戶所達成的。在這個情況下，之前的國科會也提到了廠商的外移，我們看到台積電的外移是非常重要的，台積電的外移雖然涉及關稅問題，可是更重要的是台積電沒說的事實，在全球的分布當中，台積電要去德國了，德國完整的跟它講，可以的，我們可以百分之百的供應再生能源；日本的部分在熊本，它用九州的電網供應再生能源，也是沒有問題的；然後在亞利桑那當中，整個州這部分，核能因為供給它基載電力之後，它的再生能源也是可以的。最重要的是要跟大家講，大家知道芬蘭在北歐是非常重要的一個重視環保的國家，他現在更是全世界第二大核電生產國，降低了75%電價成本，這部分也供參考。當然這一部分，林昶佐代表已經到芬蘭去了，可是他在那邊如果有機會跟全民共樂的時候可以講到，他在核電方面這麼高的一個地方，事實上是要去了解的。","最重要的，講到這邊是要給大家、院長一項資訊，因為您行政院、民進黨的這個政府當中，就是為了政策選票在說謊並誇大不實，導致錯誤政策出現，導致了國家財損還會繼續、台電方面的擴大，那企業就必然出走。包括我剛才說的台積電是一個非常典型的例子，因為剛才所說的，臺灣並沒有辦法提供足夠的再生能源，如果又沒有所謂非碳的電力，而且24時、7天這樣……是不行的。所以在剛才的這部分，詐騙行為當中，就是誇大不實，事實上是相反，還包括後面這個部分，當然人民就會覺得民進黨政府可能就是非常大的一個詐騙集團，也就是因為在這樣的情況之下，他沒有辦法去得到……包括剛才羅智強委員也說了，當你的心思沒有完全在你的政策上面，就沒有辦法達成這個效果。","我們繼續看到，目前臺灣最大的民怨是什麼？是對等關稅、能源問題跟詐騙的問題，因為人民缺乏對政府的信任，「只講優點的謊言」，而且忽視財損的事實，那老實講就是「詐騙」的這種情形。這個地方怎麼樣去改變呢？打詐最重要的是在這裡，希望能夠誠實地去處理……"],["卓院長榮泰：對不起，委員，你剛剛的這一席講話，不僅違反院長的裁示，也完全沒有邏輯，我實在沒有辦法理解。謝謝劉委員。"],["主席：謝謝，辛苦了，劉書彬委員，謝謝你的質詢。也謝謝卓院長、相關首長的備詢，謝謝。","報告院會，我們現在休息10分鐘。10分鐘之後，我們請王義川委員準備質詢，現在休息。","休息（11時42分）","繼續開會（11時52分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":49,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-25","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-08-15"],"gazette_id":"1147101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第25次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1147101_00001"}}}