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\"勵\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 638.977, \"end\": 639.117, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 639.117, \"end\": 639.197, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 639.197, \"end\": 639.317, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 639.317, \"end\": 639.677, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 639.677, \"end\": 639.737, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 639.737, \"end\": 639.757, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 639.757, \"end\": 639.897, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"支\", \"start\": 639.897, \"end\": 640.038, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 640.038, \"end\": 640.098, \"score\": 0.705}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 640.098, \"end\": 640.118, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"們\"}]}, {\"start\": 641.144, \"end\": 662.243, \"text\": \"我請店長申報整合出來到底這個時候怎麼樣來處理對這些第一線很辛苦的員警們是最佳的鼓勵我們願意朝這個方向即刻來謝謝院長的肯定來我們今天看了這個表看了很多次了行政院認為說打詐有成趨勢是往下沒有錯但是我們看到這個紅線是詐騙金額那個那個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", 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\"條塊是詐騙的案件量我們注意到在2014年的2月非常有效急速下降那個時候是因為我們社群的網路平台實施了廣告實名制這也因為法令通過之後我們速發部動手了詐團受到阻礙但是他馬上就找到對策所以案件又上升了所以長期看趨勢是下滑但是是有高有低就看我們有沒有持續的提出有效的防詐作為院長你說對不對\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"塊\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 667.404, \"end\": 667.564, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"詐\"}, {\"word\": \"騙\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 667.564, \"end\": 667.905, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 667.905, \"end\": 668.065, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 668.065, \"end\": 668.225, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"量\", \"start\": 668.225, \"end\": 668.745, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 668.745, \"end\": 669.005, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"注\", \"start\": 669.005, \"end\": 669.125, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 669.125, \"end\": 669.225, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 669.225, \"end\": 669.425, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 669.425, \"end\": 670.446, \"score\": 0.933}, 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\"start\": 705.609, \"end\": 705.89, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 705.89, \"end\": 706.07, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"字\", \"start\": 706.07, \"end\": 706.491, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 706.491, \"end\": 706.611, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 706.611, \"end\": 706.711, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 706.711, \"end\": 706.891, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"求\", \"start\": 706.891, \"end\": 707.012, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 707.012, \"end\": 707.032, \"score\": 0.932}]}, {\"start\": 708.171, \"end\": 726.131, \"text\": \"第一個不能往上升這要努力了解您剛剛說了很多次了我的意思是說不能只靠一朝一世因為詐團的手法千變萬化要持之以恆對不對所以持之以恆要怎麼辦我們往下看現在在我們刑事警察局底下要設一個詐欺犯罪防治中心他要推動他的組織法制化\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 708.171, \"end\": 708.291, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 708.291, \"end\": 708.551, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 708.551, 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926.515, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"備\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,089 --> 00:00:24,482\n嘉賓委員質詢張志倫委員請準備主席在場委員先進列席的政務機關上官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們卓院長以及先邀請法務部部長跟金管會彭主委麻煩請卓院長法務部金管會備詢\n\n2\n00:00:36,443 --> 00:01:00,291\n總委員好院長好部長好主委好今天上午許多委員都關切國人最痛恨的打債來質詢這也是今天院長的專報就這麼巧在今天有一個2025年的亞洲詐騙報告當中提到亞洲14個國家或地區院長你覺得哪些國家的詐騙最頻繁\n\n3\n00:01:03,102 --> 00:01:29,038\n抱歉我倒沒有看到這個內容好香港跟泰國被詐騙的頻率最頻繁但是台灣有高達七成的民眾在過去一年前曾經遭遇過詐騙所以可以理解為什麼民眾對於詐騙這麼深惡痛絕因為很多人都有類似的經驗結果中國的網路也不遑多讓他們說詐騙猖獗是因為A騙子太多還是B傻子太多院長你覺得呢\n\n4\n00:01:31,124 --> 00:01:47,155\n我想這是一個網路上他們在一種以笑虐的方式來進行但是我們嚴肅來看待往下看那請教法務部曾部長你認為引發竊盜的主要原因是因為受害人屬於防範他的財務還是贓物因為容易脫手變現引發了竊盜您的經驗\n\n5\n00:01:49,905 --> 00:02:06,674\n那個犯罪的類型很多應該不限於這兩種吧不限於這兩種但是有人說鼓勵竊盜是因為髒物很好脫手啊如果髒物賣不掉他偷了也沒用往下看所以呢請教彭主委你認為詐欺超越竊盜成為犯罪大宗的原因有可能是什麼\n\n6\n00:02:10,632 --> 00:02:35,669\n直接提示因為網路交易已經取代了當面交付虛擬資產取代了實體貨幣以前你偷要偷鈔票偷金銀珠寶還要囂張還要變現因此現在虛擬貨幣來無影去無蹤而且以前要到你身上爬現在不用直接在網路上你按個鍵網路就交易了這是詐騙的原因好我們往下看所以有一個\n\n7\n00:02:36,403 --> 00:02:48,306\n最近有幾件事情讓我們看到了第一個是有台灣有超過4家業者成立第三方支付的工會彭主委這是一個正面的一個訊息雖然我知道第三方支付不是您的業館\n\n8\n00:02:50,000 --> 00:03:11,547\n是當然任何一個工會它有自律那當然會比沒有工會好很多好那另外也要請部長來看一下我們上週才會到國泰世華跟華南銀行去實際考察他們銀行的零貴主詐跟他們跟警方配合辦案的情況結果調查檢報說假三資可以詐騙很多錢那我們來看一下詐騙了多少錢\n\n9\n00:03:12,642 --> 00:03:33,311\n第三方支付洗錢高達50億結果裁罰30萬民眾說太輕了院長你會不會覺得民眾會這樣感覺洗錢洗那麼多對不對那個案子部長應該瞭解那調查局辦了結果裁罰30萬速發部裁罰30萬院長你覺得什麼原因民眾什麼感覺\n\n10\n00:03:34,668 --> 00:03:54,660\n不成比例但是往往我們忽略一點因為我們目前看到的洗錢防止法不管是第8條還是第13條它都是行政法都是程序上對這些參與洗錢的業者在他的刑事司法審理之前行政機關先祭出的華凡\n\n11\n00:03:55,731 --> 00:04:17,301\n那滑環呢?以地方開放支付來講是多少?五萬到五百萬啊相較到洗錢金額當然是不成比例為什麼?院長要跟您說明我們在宣傳打造的時候為什麼民眾還是這樣的錯覺?因為我們在新聞媒體呈現出來的是龐大的洗錢金額跟少少的行政滑環事實上最重要的是哪一個部分?後面這個部分\n\n12\n00:04:18,121 --> 00:04:19,702\n像這樣的一個刑罰的處罰是不是要等到法院審理完才能確定\n\n13\n00:04:37,442 --> 00:05:05,105\n這一定要判決一定要判決占卜確定院長了解原因了沒有我聽了很多委員的質詢很多民眾的抱怨哎呀胖子太輕了啦為什麼認為胖子太輕我要生五十歲要活五十萬其實這是一個誤解因為行政裁罰先後面的司法審理刑罰在後但是你認為目前是不是普遍人民認為就算刑罰判了也不夠院長你的看法呢\n\n14\n00:05:06,075 --> 00:05:33,673\n行動應該調整合理而且他的這個判決的時間也應該速審速決好但是儘管如此司法院的判決我們尊重也期待但是呢我們還是行政局外可以有所作為舉例來講我曾經問過彭主委類似這樣的問題其實詐團他們都利用人頭去開戶但是在現在的銀行金融機構不管你是證券戶要開交割戶到銀行要KYC你銀行自己本身自然能開戶也要KYC\n\n15\n00:05:34,253 --> 00:05:52,609\n甚至呢你是電子支付業者這是金管會管的也要KYCKYC就認識你的客戶只要你臨櫃辦理大概要很難用人頭辦為什麼因為有一個叫財軍資訊公司的如果你拿人頭來辦他只要一查你這個名字以前申請帳號的行動電話跟你現在不同一個\n\n16\n00:05:53,630 --> 00:06:21,826\n為什麼行動電話不同因為詐團用人頭啊就會叫他用同一支行動電話比較好控制因此跟原來的那個人頭的留存的電話號碼就不一樣了就抓到了但是目前第三方置物業者跟虛幣交易所他們沒有這樣的被要求在開戶的時候沒有辦法透過財經資訊公司去自行因為財經資訊公司會告訴原來的用戶告訴宗嘉斌我發一個OTP給你你是不是來開戶\n\n17\n00:06:22,964 --> 00:06:51,352\n沒有這個查核院長了解了那可不可以請彭主委說那為什麼你認為財經資訊公司沒有辦法對於三資跟虛幣交易所來進行這樣的照會這也是我們在這一次打造專法在檢討修法的時候比如說我們有個同業照會機制這很重要是那怎麼辦因為他不同業所以我們也提出了修法建議在這次裡面同業照會要誰來修法來請我們劉世芳部長跟我們的黃燕蘭黃部長因為這就是他們的業務了請\n\n18\n00:06:54,920 --> 00:07:21,458\n時間暫停老闆請院長因為打詐非常繁瑣希望透過您來聽我們質詢了解到各部會的合作很重要剛剛金管會要管法務部要罰但是法要修修哪一個法修詐欺犯罪危害防治條例這個是哪個部會主管的\n\n19\n00:07:23,541 --> 00:07:47,874\n沒有很多部會一起處管但是主責是內政部有內政部法務部還有金管會金管會提出要修法請問院長您覺得哪個部要趕快提出來哪個部哪個部要趕快提出炸房條例要修改第八條要把其中的金融機構以及提供虛擬資產服務事業或人員也要納入照會的機制是不是請行政院趕快提出修法法案\n\n20\n00:07:49,115 --> 00:08:18,198\n報告委員其實這個炸房條例有若干條文現在已經在內政委員會在討論現在的立法院的內政委會那您所提到的第8條如果要增刪下去的話我們要按照行政程序或按照立法程序來提出來好那麼為什麼請黃部長來因為剛剛講的目前洗錢最多的就是第三方支付的假冒第三方支付業者黃部長是不是第三方支付是不是住發部管的第三方支付我們現在納管的是的好那我們來看一下\n\n21\n00:08:19,143 --> 00:08:38,143\n當我們要去透過這些洗錢的途徑防止詐騙來的金額逃竄無法追回我們有很多動作要做政府有在執行防詐措施但是在第一線不管是速發部在監看網路網頁的人還是我們內政部警政署第一線的員警他們往往要公文的層層覺醒\n\n22\n00:08:39,500 --> 00:08:58,027\n因此怕錯過時效如果以基層來講如果沒有獎勵他幹嘛做那麼多的事情那另外公務員執行這些書發部的黃部長有沒有我們同仁跟你說當他們要執行業務的時候也擔心被業者提告有沒有難免會有這樣的擔心\n\n23\n00:08:58,752 --> 00:09:27,537\n那我要告訴院長問題出在哪裡我們炸房條例第38條當我們要協助打炸的時候這些金融機構網路廣告平台第三方住業者電商業者他可以有一個免責條款免除他業務上因所得秘密他來配合檢警調偵辦他有一個免責條款所以業者可以說我提供給警方辦我不用擔心被什麼被客戶告所以有這個免責條款但是公務員沒有\n\n24\n00:09:28,260 --> 00:09:51,606\n公務員沒有類似的設計所以速發部來講他主管的業務當中因為是管網路那麼動不動如果說配合辦案萬一給這些平台業者告公務員受不了院長要不要支持我們透過修法也讓公務員有這個機制讓他可以配合檢警調進行相關詐騙的防詐賭詐以及這些相關的偵辦作為我一向主張\n\n25\n00:09:53,373 --> 00:10:19,707\n公務人員在從事任何保障人民權利的時候跟自己的業務要用積極的方向來做如果他願意積極來做一些事情我們在刻意他重責顯然是不宜的所以如果到這個方向來做我們從這裡做合理的調整我覺得是好的方式那就請指示行政院相關的一個樣的一個免責的一個保障要有好其實我們目前呢防止詐騙基層員警很重要其中有一個叫做165專案165專線\n\n26\n00:10:22,742 --> 00:10:40,118\n部長劉部長這是一個任務編組還是一個常態編制現在是一個任務編組是的那麼這些人的技工嘉獎各種的續獎都是要回到原機關辦理所以我們希望說行政院能夠協助這些辦案有功的人員能夠得到積極的鼓勵好不好院長要不要支持他們\n\n27\n00:10:41,144 --> 00:11:02,243\n我請店長申報整合出來到底這個時候怎麼樣來處理對這些第一線很辛苦的員警們是最佳的鼓勵我們願意朝這個方向即刻來謝謝院長的肯定來我們今天看了這個表看了很多次了行政院認為說打詐有成趨勢是往下沒有錯但是我們看到這個紅線是詐騙金額那個那個\n\n28\n00:11:07,404 --> 00:11:34,796\n條塊是詐騙的案件量我們注意到在2014年的2月非常有效急速下降那個時候是因為我們社群的網路平台實施了廣告實名制這也因為法令通過之後我們速發部動手了詐團受到阻礙但是他馬上就找到對策所以案件又上升了所以長期看趨勢是下滑但是是有高有低就看我們有沒有持續的提出有效的防詐作為院長你說對不對\n\n29\n00:11:36,072 --> 00:11:47,032\n要抱持這一橫嗎報告委員這個圖表我們每一週的行政院的政務委員的政務會議林明新政委都會每個禮拜提出一個數字我只要求他\n\n30\n00:11:48,171 --> 00:12:06,131\n第一個不能往上升這要努力了解您剛剛說了很多次了我的意思是說不能只靠一朝一世因為詐團的手法千變萬化要持之以恆對不對所以持之以恆要怎麼辦我們往下看現在在我們刑事警察局底下要設一個詐欺犯罪防治中心他要推動他的組織法制化\n\n31\n00:12:07,489 --> 00:12:35,754\n但是要推動組織法治化在我們行政院要先行的共識要許到相關主管局的同意請問劉部長是不是我們行政院我們內政部這個刑事警察局的已經得到行政院內部的同意了是的我們在討論的過程當中行政院的包括政務委員他們覺得說165把它法治化是一個非常可行的方向好院長法治化之後行政院還要送到考試院是不是院長可以承諾9月底之前\n\n32\n00:12:36,618 --> 00:12:56,413\n完成兩院的會嫌把這個法制化工作完成我要跟內政部好好談法制化的功用是在提升它整體的效率跟所有在第一線工作同仁的一個工作上的尊重如果這兩個要同時達到要求的目標我才願意這樣做的考慮所以9月底前有沒有把握\n\n33\n00:12:57,653 --> 00:13:18,905\n我們會就內容來討論我們來研擬我是因為已經到院長辦公室了到行政院了我們希望後續能夠得我昨天也問過考試院全學部他們也是全力支持但是為什麼會有要這樣詢問呢因為我們看一下因為刑事警察局過去內部有37個內部單位有時候被質疑說機關龐雜需要整併因此我們也請提醒我們內政部跟行政院\n\n34\n00:13:19,645 --> 00:13:44,682\n根據中央行政機關組織基礎法第十條任務性已經完成或政策改變或者業務功能萎縮或重疊者要予診病所以當我們新設詐房中心的同時也要注意到刑事警察局內部這些分支機關的效能請一併做出檢討好不好好的謝謝那怎麼檢討呢其實我就提一個例子讓你們知道一下其實我們看到國民參與審判制度就是所謂俗稱國民法官法\n\n35\n00:13:45,262 --> 00:14:14,254\n他其實在當時五年前推動的時候他其實就很清楚的設定每年要提取民國報告而且執行滿六年之後要整個的通盤檢討如果有效繼續推如果效益不彰他就把它拿掉所以在我們立法的時候就把這樣的檢討機制放進去所以是不是也請行政院注意到我們推動打詐要搶求效率成如剛剛院長所說的要有效我們來實施檢討好不好好的好所以最後我們這邊就提出了\n\n36\n00:14:14,864 --> 00:14:38,304\n有關於競速推動對不起上一頁刑事警察局的這個詐欺犯罪防治中心的組織法之外也請你們行政院參照國民參與審判制度的規則對於一個成效跟評估把這個辦法考評法定出來我一方面希望促成你們的成立二方面也責成行政院要經常的查核他們的成效院長可以嗎謝謝委員這個建議很寶貴謝謝好\n\n37\n00:14:41,259 --> 00:15:03,455\n最後我就把今天對行政院提出的打詐的質詢希望對這些事項提出有關於詐欺犯罪危害防治條例的修正相關辦法有效打擊詐欺犯罪第一提供跨業照會的法據這在詐謗法當中要去修改第二行政機關參考免責條款的設計提供公務員保障的機制以及給予第一線基層及165專線員警能夠讓他們領到防詐的獎勵最後請競速\n\n38\n00:15:09,161 --> 00:15:26,515\n推動警政署刑事警察局詐欺犯罪防治中心組織法制化並比照國民參與審判制度訂定成效評估相關法律法案辦法以利後續的組織整併真相院長您接受嗎我請內政部詳細的言語我們來處理謝謝院長謝謝部長兩位部長謝謝宗嘉斌委員質詢也謝謝主委長相關部會首長的備詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t24482\t嘉賓委員質詢 張志倫委員請準備主席 在場委員先進列席的政務機關上官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請我們卓院長以及先邀請法務部部長跟金管會彭主委麻煩請卓院長 法務部金管會備詢\n36443\t60291\t總委員好院長好 部長好 主委好今天上午許多委員都關切國人最痛恨的打債來質詢這也是今天院長的專報就這麼巧在今天有一個2025年的亞洲詐騙報告當中提到亞洲14個國家或地區院長你覺得哪些國家的詐騙最頻繁\n63102\t89038\t抱歉我倒沒有看到這個內容好 香港跟泰國被詐騙的頻率最頻繁但是台灣有高達七成的民眾在過去一年前曾經遭遇過詐騙所以可以理解為什麼民眾對於詐騙這麼深惡痛絕因為很多人都有類似的經驗結果中國的網路也不遑多讓他們說詐騙猖獗是因為A 騙子太多還是B 傻子太多院長你覺得呢\n91124\t107155\t我想這是一個網路上他們在一種以笑虐的方式來進行但是我們嚴肅來看待往下看那請教法務部曾部長你認為引發竊盜的主要原因是因為受害人屬於防範他的財務還是贓物因為容易脫手變現引發了竊盜您的經驗\n109905\t126674\t那個犯罪的類型很多應該不限於這兩種吧不限於這兩種但是有人說鼓勵竊盜是因為髒物很好脫手啊如果髒物賣不掉他偷了也沒用往下看所以呢請教彭主委你認為詐欺超越竊盜成為犯罪大宗的原因有可能是什麼\n130632\t155669\t直接提示因為網路交易已經取代了當面交付虛擬資產取代了實體貨幣以前你偷要偷鈔票偷金銀珠寶還要囂張還要變現因此現在虛擬貨幣來無影去無蹤而且以前要到你身上爬現在不用直接在網路上你按個鍵網路就交易了這是詐騙的原因好我們往下看所以有一個\n156403\t168306\t最近有幾件事情讓我們看到了第一個是有台灣有超過4家業者成立第三方支付的工會彭主委這是一個正面的一個訊息雖然我知道第三方支付不是您的業館\n170000\t191547\t是 當然任何一個工會它有自律那當然會比沒有工會好很多好 那另外也要請部長來看一下我們上週才會到國泰世華跟華南銀行去實際考察他們銀行的零貴主詐跟他們跟警方配合辦案的情況結果調查檢報說假三資可以詐騙很多錢那我們來看一下詐騙了多少錢\n192642\t213311\t第三方支付洗錢高達50億結果裁罰30萬民眾說太輕了院長你會不會覺得民眾會這樣感覺洗錢洗那麼多對不對那個案子部長應該瞭解那調查局辦了結果裁罰30萬速發部裁罰30萬院長你覺得什麼原因民眾什麼感覺\n214668\t234660\t不成比例但是往往我們忽略一點因為我們目前看到的洗錢防止法不管是第8條還是第13條它都是行政法都是程序上對這些參與洗錢的業者在他的刑事司法審理之前行政機關先祭出的華凡\n235731\t257301\t那滑環呢?以地方開放支付來講是多少?五萬到五百萬啊相較到洗錢金額當然是不成比例為什麼?院長要跟您說明我們在宣傳打造的時候為什麼民眾還是這樣的錯覺?因為我們在新聞媒體呈現出來的是龐大的洗錢金額跟少少的行政滑環事實上最重要的是哪一個部分?後面這個部分\n258121\t259702\t像這樣的一個刑罰的處罰 是不是要等到法院審理完才能確定\n277442\t305105\t這一定要判決 一定要判決 占卜確定院長 了解原因了沒有我聽了很多委員的質詢 很多民眾的抱怨哎呀 胖子太輕了啦為什麼認為胖子太輕我要生五十歲 要活五十萬其實這是一個誤解因為行政裁罰先 後面的司法審理刑罰在後但是你認為目前是不是普遍人民認為就算刑罰判了也不夠院長你的看法呢\n306075\t333673\t行動應該調整合理而且他的這個判決的時間也應該速審速決好但是儘管如此司法院的判決我們尊重也期待但是呢我們還是行政局外可以有所作為舉例來講我曾經問過彭主委類似這樣的問題其實詐團他們都利用人頭去開戶但是在現在的銀行金融機構不管你是證券戶要開交割戶到銀行要KYC你銀行自己本身自然能開戶也要KYC\n334253\t352609\t甚至呢 你是電子支付業者 這是金管會管的也要KYC KYC就認識你的客戶只要你臨櫃辦理 大概要很難用人頭辦 為什麼因為有一個叫財軍資訊公司的如果你拿人頭來辦他只要一查你這個名字 以前申請帳號的行動電話跟你現在不同一個\n353630\t381826\t為什麼行動電話不同因為詐團用人頭啊就會叫他用同一支行動電話比較好控制因此跟原來的那個人頭的留存的電話號碼就不一樣了就抓到了但是目前第三方置物業者跟虛幣交易所他們沒有這樣的被要求在開戶的時候沒有辦法透過財經資訊公司去自行因為財經資訊公司會告訴原來的用戶告訴宗嘉斌我發一個OTP給你你是不是來開戶\n382964\t411352\t沒有這個查核院長了解了那可不可以請彭主委說那為什麼你認為財經資訊公司沒有辦法對於三資跟虛幣交易所來進行這樣的照會這也是我們在這一次打造專法在檢討修法的時候比如說我們有個同業照會機制這很重要是那怎麼辦因為他不同業所以我們也提出了修法建議在這次裡面同業照會要誰來修法來請我們劉世芳部長跟我們的黃燕蘭黃部長因為這就是他們的業務了請\n414920\t441458\t時間暫停 老闆請院長 因為打詐非常繁瑣希望透過您來聽我們質詢了解到各部會的合作很重要剛剛金管會要管 法務部要罰但是法要修 修哪一個法修詐欺犯罪危害防治條例這個是哪個部會主管的\n443541\t467874\t沒有 很多部會一起處管但是主責是內政部有內政部 法務部 還有金管會金管會提出要修法請問院長您覺得哪個部要趕快提出來哪個部哪個部要趕快提出 炸房條例要修改第八條要把其中的金融機構以及提供虛擬資產服務事業或人員也要納入照會的機制是不是請行政院趕快提出修法法案\n469115\t498198\t報告委員其實這個炸房條例有若干條文現在已經在內政委員會在討論現在的立法院的內政委會那您所提到的第8條如果要增刪下去的話我們要按照行政程序或按照立法程序來提出來好 那麼為什麼請黃部長來因為剛剛講的目前洗錢最多的就是第三方支付的假冒第三方支付業者黃部長是不是第三方支付是不是住發部管的第三方支付我們現在納管的 是的好 那我們來看一下\n499143\t518143\t當我們要去透過這些洗錢的途徑防止詐騙來的金額逃竄無法追回我們有很多動作要做政府有在執行防詐措施但是在第一線不管是速發部在監看網路網頁的人還是我們內政部警政署第一線的員警他們往往要公文的層層覺醒\n519500\t538027\t因此怕錯過時效如果以基層來講如果沒有獎勵他幹嘛做那麼多的事情那另外公務員執行這些書發部的黃部長有沒有我們同仁跟你說當他們要執行業務的時候也擔心被業者提告有沒有難免會有這樣的擔心\n538752\t567537\t那我要告訴院長 問題出在哪裡我們炸房條例第38條當我們要協助打炸的時候這些金融機構 網路廣告平台第三方住業者 電商業者他可以有一個免責條款免除他業務上因所得秘密他來配合檢警調偵辦他有一個免責條款所以業者可以說 我提供給警方辦我不用擔心被什麼 被客戶告所以有這個免責條款但是公務員沒有\n568260\t591606\t公務員沒有類似的設計所以速發部來講他主管的業務當中因為是管網路那麼動不動如果說配合辦案萬一給這些平台業者告公務員受不了院長要不要支持我們透過修法也讓公務員有這個機制讓他可以配合檢警調進行相關詐騙的防詐賭詐以及這些相關的偵辦作為我一向主張\n593373\t619707\t公務人員在從事任何保障人民權利的時候跟自己的業務要用積極的方向來做如果他願意積極來做一些事情我們在刻意他重責顯然是不宜的所以如果到這個方向來做我們從這裡做合理的調整我覺得是好的方式那就請指示行政院相關的一個樣的一個免責的一個保障要有好其實我們目前呢防止詐騙基層員警很重要其中有一個叫做165專案165專線\n622742\t640118\t部長 劉部長這是一個任務編組還是一個常態編制現在是一個任務編組是的那麼這些人的技工嘉獎各種的續獎都是要回到原機關辦理所以我們希望說行政院能夠協助這些辦案有功的人員能夠得到積極的鼓勵好不好 院長要不要支持他們\n641144\t662243\t我請店長申報整合出來到底這個時候怎麼樣來處理對這些第一線很辛苦的員警們是最佳的鼓勵我們願意朝這個方向即刻來謝謝院長的肯定來我們今天看了這個表看了很多次了行政院認為說打詐有成趨勢是往下沒有錯但是我們看到這個紅線是詐騙金額那個那個\n667404\t694796\t條塊是詐騙的案件量我們注意到在2014年的2月非常有效急速下降那個時候是因為我們社群的網路平台實施了廣告實名制這也因為法令通過之後我們速發部動手了詐團受到阻礙但是他馬上就找到對策所以案件又上升了所以長期看趨勢是下滑但是是有高有低就看我們有沒有持續的提出有效的防詐作為院長你說對不對\n696072\t707032\t要抱持這一橫嗎報告委員這個圖表我們每一週的行政院的政務委員的政務會議林明新政委都會每個禮拜提出一個數字我只要求他\n708171\t726131\t第一個不能往上升這要努力了解您剛剛說了很多次了我的意思是說不能只靠一朝一世因為詐團的手法千變萬化要持之以恆對不對所以持之以恆要怎麼辦我們往下看現在在我們刑事警察局底下要設一個詐欺犯罪防治中心他要推動他的組織法制化\n727489\t755754\t但是要推動組織法治化在我們行政院要先行的共識要許到相關主管局的同意請問劉部長是不是我們行政院我們內政部這個刑事警察局的已經得到行政院內部的同意了是的 我們在討論的過程當中行政院的包括政務委員他們覺得說165把它法治化是一個非常可行的方向好 院長法治化之後行政院還要送到考試院是不是院長可以承諾9月底之前\n756618\t776413\t完成兩院的會嫌把這個法制化工作完成我要跟內政部好好談法制化的功用是在提升它整體的效率跟所有在第一線工作同仁的一個工作上的尊重如果這兩個要同時達到要求的目標我才願意這樣做的考慮所以9月底前有沒有把握\n777653\t798905\t我們會就內容來討論我們來研擬我是因為已經到院長辦公室了到行政院了我們希望後續能夠得我昨天也問過考試院全學部他們也是全力支持但是為什麼會有要這樣詢問呢因為我們看一下因為刑事警察局過去內部有37個內部單位有時候被質疑說機關龐雜需要整併因此我們也請提醒我們內政部跟行政院\n799645\t824682\t根據中央行政機關組織基礎法第十條任務性已經完成或政策改變或者業務功能萎縮或重疊者要予診病所以當我們新設詐房中心的同時也要注意到刑事警察局內部這些分支機關的效能請一併做出檢討好不好好的謝謝那怎麼檢討呢其實我就提一個例子讓你們知道一下其實我們看到國民參與審判制度就是所謂俗稱國民法官法\n825262\t854254\t他其實在當時五年前推動的時候他其實就很清楚的設定每年要提取民國報告而且執行滿六年之後要整個的通盤檢討如果有效繼續推如果效益不彰他就把它拿掉所以在我們立法的時候就把這樣的檢討機制放進去所以是不是也請行政院注意到我們推動打詐要搶求效率成如剛剛院長所說的要有效我們來實施檢討好不好好的好所以最後我們這邊就提出了\n854864\t878304\t有關於競速推動對不起 上一頁刑事警察局的這個詐欺犯罪防治中心的組織法之外也請你們行政院參照國民參與審判制度的規則對於一個成效跟評估把這個辦法考評法定出來我一方面希望促成你們的成立二方面也責成行政院要經常的查核他們的成效院長可以嗎謝謝委員 這個建議很寶貴 謝謝好\n881259\t903455\t最後我就把今天對行政院提出的打詐的質詢希望對這些事項提出有關於詐欺犯罪危害防治條例的修正相關辦法有效打擊詐欺犯罪第一提供跨業照會的法據這在詐謗法當中要去修改第二行政機關參考免責條款的設計提供公務員保障的機制以及給予第一線基層及165專線員警能夠讓他們領到防詐的獎勵最後請競速\n909161\t926515\t推動警政署刑事警察局詐欺犯罪防治中心組織法制化並比照國民參與審判制度訂定成效評估相關法律法案辦法以利後續的組織整併真相院長您接受嗎我請內政部詳細的言語我們來處理謝謝院長謝謝部長兩位部長謝謝宗嘉斌委員質詢也謝謝主委長相關部會首長的備詢\n","txt":"嘉賓委員質詢 張志倫委員請準備主席 在場委員先進列席的政務機關上官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請我們卓院長以及先邀請法務部部長跟金管會彭主委麻煩請卓院長 法務部金管會備詢\n總委員好院長好 部長好 主委好今天上午許多委員都關切國人最痛恨的打債來質詢這也是今天院長的專報就這麼巧在今天有一個2025年的亞洲詐騙報告當中提到亞洲14個國家或地區院長你覺得哪些國家的詐騙最頻繁\n抱歉我倒沒有看到這個內容好 香港跟泰國被詐騙的頻率最頻繁但是台灣有高達七成的民眾在過去一年前曾經遭遇過詐騙所以可以理解為什麼民眾對於詐騙這麼深惡痛絕因為很多人都有類似的經驗結果中國的網路也不遑多讓他們說詐騙猖獗是因為A 騙子太多還是B 傻子太多院長你覺得呢\n我想這是一個網路上他們在一種以笑虐的方式來進行但是我們嚴肅來看待往下看那請教法務部曾部長你認為引發竊盜的主要原因是因為受害人屬於防範他的財務還是贓物因為容易脫手變現引發了竊盜您的經驗\n那個犯罪的類型很多應該不限於這兩種吧不限於這兩種但是有人說鼓勵竊盜是因為髒物很好脫手啊如果髒物賣不掉他偷了也沒用往下看所以呢請教彭主委你認為詐欺超越竊盜成為犯罪大宗的原因有可能是什麼\n直接提示因為網路交易已經取代了當面交付虛擬資產取代了實體貨幣以前你偷要偷鈔票偷金銀珠寶還要囂張還要變現因此現在虛擬貨幣來無影去無蹤而且以前要到你身上爬現在不用直接在網路上你按個鍵網路就交易了這是詐騙的原因好我們往下看所以有一個\n最近有幾件事情讓我們看到了第一個是有台灣有超過4家業者成立第三方支付的工會彭主委這是一個正面的一個訊息雖然我知道第三方支付不是您的業館\n是 當然任何一個工會它有自律那當然會比沒有工會好很多好 那另外也要請部長來看一下我們上週才會到國泰世華跟華南銀行去實際考察他們銀行的零貴主詐跟他們跟警方配合辦案的情況結果調查檢報說假三資可以詐騙很多錢那我們來看一下詐騙了多少錢\n第三方支付洗錢高達50億結果裁罰30萬民眾說太輕了院長你會不會覺得民眾會這樣感覺洗錢洗那麼多對不對那個案子部長應該瞭解那調查局辦了結果裁罰30萬速發部裁罰30萬院長你覺得什麼原因民眾什麼感覺\n不成比例但是往往我們忽略一點因為我們目前看到的洗錢防止法不管是第8條還是第13條它都是行政法都是程序上對這些參與洗錢的業者在他的刑事司法審理之前行政機關先祭出的華凡\n那滑環呢?以地方開放支付來講是多少?五萬到五百萬啊相較到洗錢金額當然是不成比例為什麼?院長要跟您說明我們在宣傳打造的時候為什麼民眾還是這樣的錯覺?因為我們在新聞媒體呈現出來的是龐大的洗錢金額跟少少的行政滑環事實上最重要的是哪一個部分?後面這個部分\n像這樣的一個刑罰的處罰 是不是要等到法院審理完才能確定\n這一定要判決 一定要判決 占卜確定院長 了解原因了沒有我聽了很多委員的質詢 很多民眾的抱怨哎呀 胖子太輕了啦為什麼認為胖子太輕我要生五十歲 要活五十萬其實這是一個誤解因為行政裁罰先 後面的司法審理刑罰在後但是你認為目前是不是普遍人民認為就算刑罰判了也不夠院長你的看法呢\n行動應該調整合理而且他的這個判決的時間也應該速審速決好但是儘管如此司法院的判決我們尊重也期待但是呢我們還是行政局外可以有所作為舉例來講我曾經問過彭主委類似這樣的問題其實詐團他們都利用人頭去開戶但是在現在的銀行金融機構不管你是證券戶要開交割戶到銀行要KYC你銀行自己本身自然能開戶也要KYC\n甚至呢 你是電子支付業者 這是金管會管的也要KYC KYC就認識你的客戶只要你臨櫃辦理 大概要很難用人頭辦 為什麼因為有一個叫財軍資訊公司的如果你拿人頭來辦他只要一查你這個名字 以前申請帳號的行動電話跟你現在不同一個\n為什麼行動電話不同因為詐團用人頭啊就會叫他用同一支行動電話比較好控制因此跟原來的那個人頭的留存的電話號碼就不一樣了就抓到了但是目前第三方置物業者跟虛幣交易所他們沒有這樣的被要求在開戶的時候沒有辦法透過財經資訊公司去自行因為財經資訊公司會告訴原來的用戶告訴宗嘉斌我發一個OTP給你你是不是來開戶\n沒有這個查核院長了解了那可不可以請彭主委說那為什麼你認為財經資訊公司沒有辦法對於三資跟虛幣交易所來進行這樣的照會這也是我們在這一次打造專法在檢討修法的時候比如說我們有個同業照會機制這很重要是那怎麼辦因為他不同業所以我們也提出了修法建議在這次裡面同業照會要誰來修法來請我們劉世芳部長跟我們的黃燕蘭黃部長因為這就是他們的業務了請\n時間暫停 老闆請院長 因為打詐非常繁瑣希望透過您來聽我們質詢了解到各部會的合作很重要剛剛金管會要管 法務部要罰但是法要修 修哪一個法修詐欺犯罪危害防治條例這個是哪個部會主管的\n沒有 很多部會一起處管但是主責是內政部有內政部 法務部 還有金管會金管會提出要修法請問院長您覺得哪個部要趕快提出來哪個部哪個部要趕快提出 炸房條例要修改第八條要把其中的金融機構以及提供虛擬資產服務事業或人員也要納入照會的機制是不是請行政院趕快提出修法法案\n報告委員其實這個炸房條例有若干條文現在已經在內政委員會在討論現在的立法院的內政委會那您所提到的第8條如果要增刪下去的話我們要按照行政程序或按照立法程序來提出來好 那麼為什麼請黃部長來因為剛剛講的目前洗錢最多的就是第三方支付的假冒第三方支付業者黃部長是不是第三方支付是不是住發部管的第三方支付我們現在納管的 是的好 那我們來看一下\n當我們要去透過這些洗錢的途徑防止詐騙來的金額逃竄無法追回我們有很多動作要做政府有在執行防詐措施但是在第一線不管是速發部在監看網路網頁的人還是我們內政部警政署第一線的員警他們往往要公文的層層覺醒\n因此怕錯過時效如果以基層來講如果沒有獎勵他幹嘛做那麼多的事情那另外公務員執行這些書發部的黃部長有沒有我們同仁跟你說當他們要執行業務的時候也擔心被業者提告有沒有難免會有這樣的擔心\n那我要告訴院長 問題出在哪裡我們炸房條例第38條當我們要協助打炸的時候這些金融機構 網路廣告平台第三方住業者 電商業者他可以有一個免責條款免除他業務上因所得秘密他來配合檢警調偵辦他有一個免責條款所以業者可以說 我提供給警方辦我不用擔心被什麼 被客戶告所以有這個免責條款但是公務員沒有\n公務員沒有類似的設計所以速發部來講他主管的業務當中因為是管網路那麼動不動如果說配合辦案萬一給這些平台業者告公務員受不了院長要不要支持我們透過修法也讓公務員有這個機制讓他可以配合檢警調進行相關詐騙的防詐賭詐以及這些相關的偵辦作為我一向主張\n公務人員在從事任何保障人民權利的時候跟自己的業務要用積極的方向來做如果他願意積極來做一些事情我們在刻意他重責顯然是不宜的所以如果到這個方向來做我們從這裡做合理的調整我覺得是好的方式那就請指示行政院相關的一個樣的一個免責的一個保障要有好其實我們目前呢防止詐騙基層員警很重要其中有一個叫做165專案165專線\n部長 劉部長這是一個任務編組還是一個常態編制現在是一個任務編組是的那麼這些人的技工嘉獎各種的續獎都是要回到原機關辦理所以我們希望說行政院能夠協助這些辦案有功的人員能夠得到積極的鼓勵好不好 院長要不要支持他們\n我請店長申報整合出來到底這個時候怎麼樣來處理對這些第一線很辛苦的員警們是最佳的鼓勵我們願意朝這個方向即刻來謝謝院長的肯定來我們今天看了這個表看了很多次了行政院認為說打詐有成趨勢是往下沒有錯但是我們看到這個紅線是詐騙金額那個那個\n條塊是詐騙的案件量我們注意到在2014年的2月非常有效急速下降那個時候是因為我們社群的網路平台實施了廣告實名制這也因為法令通過之後我們速發部動手了詐團受到阻礙但是他馬上就找到對策所以案件又上升了所以長期看趨勢是下滑但是是有高有低就看我們有沒有持續的提出有效的防詐作為院長你說對不對\n要抱持這一橫嗎報告委員這個圖表我們每一週的行政院的政務委員的政務會議林明新政委都會每個禮拜提出一個數字我只要求他\n第一個不能往上升這要努力了解您剛剛說了很多次了我的意思是說不能只靠一朝一世因為詐團的手法千變萬化要持之以恆對不對所以持之以恆要怎麼辦我們往下看現在在我們刑事警察局底下要設一個詐欺犯罪防治中心他要推動他的組織法制化\n但是要推動組織法治化在我們行政院要先行的共識要許到相關主管局的同意請問劉部長是不是我們行政院我們內政部這個刑事警察局的已經得到行政院內部的同意了是的 我們在討論的過程當中行政院的包括政務委員他們覺得說165把它法治化是一個非常可行的方向好 院長法治化之後行政院還要送到考試院是不是院長可以承諾9月底之前\n完成兩院的會嫌把這個法制化工作完成我要跟內政部好好談法制化的功用是在提升它整體的效率跟所有在第一線工作同仁的一個工作上的尊重如果這兩個要同時達到要求的目標我才願意這樣做的考慮所以9月底前有沒有把握\n我們會就內容來討論我們來研擬我是因為已經到院長辦公室了到行政院了我們希望後續能夠得我昨天也問過考試院全學部他們也是全力支持但是為什麼會有要這樣詢問呢因為我們看一下因為刑事警察局過去內部有37個內部單位有時候被質疑說機關龐雜需要整併因此我們也請提醒我們內政部跟行政院\n根據中央行政機關組織基礎法第十條任務性已經完成或政策改變或者業務功能萎縮或重疊者要予診病所以當我們新設詐房中心的同時也要注意到刑事警察局內部這些分支機關的效能請一併做出檢討好不好好的謝謝那怎麼檢討呢其實我就提一個例子讓你們知道一下其實我們看到國民參與審判制度就是所謂俗稱國民法官法\n他其實在當時五年前推動的時候他其實就很清楚的設定每年要提取民國報告而且執行滿六年之後要整個的通盤檢討如果有效繼續推如果效益不彰他就把它拿掉所以在我們立法的時候就把這樣的檢討機制放進去所以是不是也請行政院注意到我們推動打詐要搶求效率成如剛剛院長所說的要有效我們來實施檢討好不好好的好所以最後我們這邊就提出了\n有關於競速推動對不起 上一頁刑事警察局的這個詐欺犯罪防治中心的組織法之外也請你們行政院參照國民參與審判制度的規則對於一個成效跟評估把這個辦法考評法定出來我一方面希望促成你們的成立二方面也責成行政院要經常的查核他們的成效院長可以嗎謝謝委員 這個建議很寶貴 謝謝好\n最後我就把今天對行政院提出的打詐的質詢希望對這些事項提出有關於詐欺犯罪危害防治條例的修正相關辦法有效打擊詐欺犯罪第一提供跨業照會的法據這在詐謗法當中要去修改第二行政機關參考免責條款的設計提供公務員保障的機制以及給予第一線基層及165專線員警能夠讓他們領到防詐的獎勵最後請競速\n推動警政署刑事警察局詐欺犯罪防治中心組織法制化並比照國民參與審判制度訂定成效評估相關法律法案辦法以利後續的組織整併真相院長您接受嗎我請內政部詳細的言語我們來處理謝謝院長謝謝部長兩位部長謝謝宗嘉斌委員質詢也謝謝主委長相關部會首長的備詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:24.482\n嘉賓委員質詢張志倫委員請準備主席在場委員先進列席的政務機關上官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們卓院長以及先邀請法務部部長跟金管會彭主委麻煩請卓院長法務部金管會備詢\n\n00:36.443 --> 01:00.291\n總委員好院長好部長好主委好今天上午許多委員都關切國人最痛恨的打債來質詢這也是今天院長的專報就這麼巧在今天有一個2025年的亞洲詐騙報告當中提到亞洲14個國家或地區院長你覺得哪些國家的詐騙最頻繁\n\n01:03.102 --> 01:29.038\n抱歉我倒沒有看到這個內容好香港跟泰國被詐騙的頻率最頻繁但是台灣有高達七成的民眾在過去一年前曾經遭遇過詐騙所以可以理解為什麼民眾對於詐騙這麼深惡痛絕因為很多人都有類似的經驗結果中國的網路也不遑多讓他們說詐騙猖獗是因為A騙子太多還是B傻子太多院長你覺得呢\n\n01:31.124 --> 01:47.155\n我想這是一個網路上他們在一種以笑虐的方式來進行但是我們嚴肅來看待往下看那請教法務部曾部長你認為引發竊盜的主要原因是因為受害人屬於防範他的財務還是贓物因為容易脫手變現引發了竊盜您的經驗\n\n01:49.905 --> 02:06.674\n那個犯罪的類型很多應該不限於這兩種吧不限於這兩種但是有人說鼓勵竊盜是因為髒物很好脫手啊如果髒物賣不掉他偷了也沒用往下看所以呢請教彭主委你認為詐欺超越竊盜成為犯罪大宗的原因有可能是什麼\n\n02:10.632 --> 02:35.669\n直接提示因為網路交易已經取代了當面交付虛擬資產取代了實體貨幣以前你偷要偷鈔票偷金銀珠寶還要囂張還要變現因此現在虛擬貨幣來無影去無蹤而且以前要到你身上爬現在不用直接在網路上你按個鍵網路就交易了這是詐騙的原因好我們往下看所以有一個\n\n02:36.403 --> 02:48.306\n最近有幾件事情讓我們看到了第一個是有台灣有超過4家業者成立第三方支付的工會彭主委這是一個正面的一個訊息雖然我知道第三方支付不是您的業館\n\n02:50.000 --> 03:11.547\n是當然任何一個工會它有自律那當然會比沒有工會好很多好那另外也要請部長來看一下我們上週才會到國泰世華跟華南銀行去實際考察他們銀行的零貴主詐跟他們跟警方配合辦案的情況結果調查檢報說假三資可以詐騙很多錢那我們來看一下詐騙了多少錢\n\n03:12.642 --> 03:33.311\n第三方支付洗錢高達50億結果裁罰30萬民眾說太輕了院長你會不會覺得民眾會這樣感覺洗錢洗那麼多對不對那個案子部長應該瞭解那調查局辦了結果裁罰30萬速發部裁罰30萬院長你覺得什麼原因民眾什麼感覺\n\n03:34.668 --> 03:54.660\n不成比例但是往往我們忽略一點因為我們目前看到的洗錢防止法不管是第8條還是第13條它都是行政法都是程序上對這些參與洗錢的業者在他的刑事司法審理之前行政機關先祭出的華凡\n\n03:55.731 --> 04:17.301\n那滑環呢?以地方開放支付來講是多少?五萬到五百萬啊相較到洗錢金額當然是不成比例為什麼?院長要跟您說明我們在宣傳打造的時候為什麼民眾還是這樣的錯覺?因為我們在新聞媒體呈現出來的是龐大的洗錢金額跟少少的行政滑環事實上最重要的是哪一個部分?後面這個部分\n\n04:18.121 --> 04:19.702\n像這樣的一個刑罰的處罰是不是要等到法院審理完才能確定\n\n04:37.442 --> 05:05.105\n這一定要判決一定要判決占卜確定院長了解原因了沒有我聽了很多委員的質詢很多民眾的抱怨哎呀胖子太輕了啦為什麼認為胖子太輕我要生五十歲要活五十萬其實這是一個誤解因為行政裁罰先後面的司法審理刑罰在後但是你認為目前是不是普遍人民認為就算刑罰判了也不夠院長你的看法呢\n\n05:06.075 --> 05:33.673\n行動應該調整合理而且他的這個判決的時間也應該速審速決好但是儘管如此司法院的判決我們尊重也期待但是呢我們還是行政局外可以有所作為舉例來講我曾經問過彭主委類似這樣的問題其實詐團他們都利用人頭去開戶但是在現在的銀行金融機構不管你是證券戶要開交割戶到銀行要KYC你銀行自己本身自然能開戶也要KYC\n\n05:34.253 --> 05:52.609\n甚至呢你是電子支付業者這是金管會管的也要KYCKYC就認識你的客戶只要你臨櫃辦理大概要很難用人頭辦為什麼因為有一個叫財軍資訊公司的如果你拿人頭來辦他只要一查你這個名字以前申請帳號的行動電話跟你現在不同一個\n\n05:53.630 --> 06:21.826\n為什麼行動電話不同因為詐團用人頭啊就會叫他用同一支行動電話比較好控制因此跟原來的那個人頭的留存的電話號碼就不一樣了就抓到了但是目前第三方置物業者跟虛幣交易所他們沒有這樣的被要求在開戶的時候沒有辦法透過財經資訊公司去自行因為財經資訊公司會告訴原來的用戶告訴宗嘉斌我發一個OTP給你你是不是來開戶\n\n06:22.964 --> 06:51.352\n沒有這個查核院長了解了那可不可以請彭主委說那為什麼你認為財經資訊公司沒有辦法對於三資跟虛幣交易所來進行這樣的照會這也是我們在這一次打造專法在檢討修法的時候比如說我們有個同業照會機制這很重要是那怎麼辦因為他不同業所以我們也提出了修法建議在這次裡面同業照會要誰來修法來請我們劉世芳部長跟我們的黃燕蘭黃部長因為這就是他們的業務了請\n\n06:54.920 --> 07:21.458\n時間暫停老闆請院長因為打詐非常繁瑣希望透過您來聽我們質詢了解到各部會的合作很重要剛剛金管會要管法務部要罰但是法要修修哪一個法修詐欺犯罪危害防治條例這個是哪個部會主管的\n\n07:23.541 --> 07:47.874\n沒有很多部會一起處管但是主責是內政部有內政部法務部還有金管會金管會提出要修法請問院長您覺得哪個部要趕快提出來哪個部哪個部要趕快提出炸房條例要修改第八條要把其中的金融機構以及提供虛擬資產服務事業或人員也要納入照會的機制是不是請行政院趕快提出修法法案\n\n07:49.115 --> 08:18.198\n報告委員其實這個炸房條例有若干條文現在已經在內政委員會在討論現在的立法院的內政委會那您所提到的第8條如果要增刪下去的話我們要按照行政程序或按照立法程序來提出來好那麼為什麼請黃部長來因為剛剛講的目前洗錢最多的就是第三方支付的假冒第三方支付業者黃部長是不是第三方支付是不是住發部管的第三方支付我們現在納管的是的好那我們來看一下\n\n08:19.143 --> 08:38.143\n當我們要去透過這些洗錢的途徑防止詐騙來的金額逃竄無法追回我們有很多動作要做政府有在執行防詐措施但是在第一線不管是速發部在監看網路網頁的人還是我們內政部警政署第一線的員警他們往往要公文的層層覺醒\n\n08:39.500 --> 08:58.027\n因此怕錯過時效如果以基層來講如果沒有獎勵他幹嘛做那麼多的事情那另外公務員執行這些書發部的黃部長有沒有我們同仁跟你說當他們要執行業務的時候也擔心被業者提告有沒有難免會有這樣的擔心\n\n08:58.752 --> 09:27.537\n那我要告訴院長問題出在哪裡我們炸房條例第38條當我們要協助打炸的時候這些金融機構網路廣告平台第三方住業者電商業者他可以有一個免責條款免除他業務上因所得秘密他來配合檢警調偵辦他有一個免責條款所以業者可以說我提供給警方辦我不用擔心被什麼被客戶告所以有這個免責條款但是公務員沒有\n\n09:28.260 --> 09:51.606\n公務員沒有類似的設計所以速發部來講他主管的業務當中因為是管網路那麼動不動如果說配合辦案萬一給這些平台業者告公務員受不了院長要不要支持我們透過修法也讓公務員有這個機制讓他可以配合檢警調進行相關詐騙的防詐賭詐以及這些相關的偵辦作為我一向主張\n\n09:53.373 --> 10:19.707\n公務人員在從事任何保障人民權利的時候跟自己的業務要用積極的方向來做如果他願意積極來做一些事情我們在刻意他重責顯然是不宜的所以如果到這個方向來做我們從這裡做合理的調整我覺得是好的方式那就請指示行政院相關的一個樣的一個免責的一個保障要有好其實我們目前呢防止詐騙基層員警很重要其中有一個叫做165專案165專線\n\n10:22.742 --> 10:40.118\n部長劉部長這是一個任務編組還是一個常態編制現在是一個任務編組是的那麼這些人的技工嘉獎各種的續獎都是要回到原機關辦理所以我們希望說行政院能夠協助這些辦案有功的人員能夠得到積極的鼓勵好不好院長要不要支持他們\n\n10:41.144 --> 11:02.243\n我請店長申報整合出來到底這個時候怎麼樣來處理對這些第一線很辛苦的員警們是最佳的鼓勵我們願意朝這個方向即刻來謝謝院長的肯定來我們今天看了這個表看了很多次了行政院認為說打詐有成趨勢是往下沒有錯但是我們看到這個紅線是詐騙金額那個那個\n\n11:07.404 --> 11:34.796\n條塊是詐騙的案件量我們注意到在2014年的2月非常有效急速下降那個時候是因為我們社群的網路平台實施了廣告實名制這也因為法令通過之後我們速發部動手了詐團受到阻礙但是他馬上就找到對策所以案件又上升了所以長期看趨勢是下滑但是是有高有低就看我們有沒有持續的提出有效的防詐作為院長你說對不對\n\n11:36.072 --> 11:47.032\n要抱持這一橫嗎報告委員這個圖表我們每一週的行政院的政務委員的政務會議林明新政委都會每個禮拜提出一個數字我只要求他\n\n11:48.171 --> 12:06.131\n第一個不能往上升這要努力了解您剛剛說了很多次了我的意思是說不能只靠一朝一世因為詐團的手法千變萬化要持之以恆對不對所以持之以恆要怎麼辦我們往下看現在在我們刑事警察局底下要設一個詐欺犯罪防治中心他要推動他的組織法制化\n\n12:07.489 --> 12:35.754\n但是要推動組織法治化在我們行政院要先行的共識要許到相關主管局的同意請問劉部長是不是我們行政院我們內政部這個刑事警察局的已經得到行政院內部的同意了是的我們在討論的過程當中行政院的包括政務委員他們覺得說165把它法治化是一個非常可行的方向好院長法治化之後行政院還要送到考試院是不是院長可以承諾9月底之前\n\n12:36.618 --> 12:56.413\n完成兩院的會嫌把這個法制化工作完成我要跟內政部好好談法制化的功用是在提升它整體的效率跟所有在第一線工作同仁的一個工作上的尊重如果這兩個要同時達到要求的目標我才願意這樣做的考慮所以9月底前有沒有把握\n\n12:57.653 --> 13:18.905\n我們會就內容來討論我們來研擬我是因為已經到院長辦公室了到行政院了我們希望後續能夠得我昨天也問過考試院全學部他們也是全力支持但是為什麼會有要這樣詢問呢因為我們看一下因為刑事警察局過去內部有37個內部單位有時候被質疑說機關龐雜需要整併因此我們也請提醒我們內政部跟行政院\n\n13:19.645 --> 13:44.682\n根據中央行政機關組織基礎法第十條任務性已經完成或政策改變或者業務功能萎縮或重疊者要予診病所以當我們新設詐房中心的同時也要注意到刑事警察局內部這些分支機關的效能請一併做出檢討好不好好的謝謝那怎麼檢討呢其實我就提一個例子讓你們知道一下其實我們看到國民參與審判制度就是所謂俗稱國民法官法\n\n13:45.262 --> 14:14.254\n他其實在當時五年前推動的時候他其實就很清楚的設定每年要提取民國報告而且執行滿六年之後要整個的通盤檢討如果有效繼續推如果效益不彰他就把它拿掉所以在我們立法的時候就把這樣的檢討機制放進去所以是不是也請行政院注意到我們推動打詐要搶求效率成如剛剛院長所說的要有效我們來實施檢討好不好好的好所以最後我們這邊就提出了\n\n14:14.864 --> 14:38.304\n有關於競速推動對不起上一頁刑事警察局的這個詐欺犯罪防治中心的組織法之外也請你們行政院參照國民參與審判制度的規則對於一個成效跟評估把這個辦法考評法定出來我一方面希望促成你們的成立二方面也責成行政院要經常的查核他們的成效院長可以嗎謝謝委員這個建議很寶貴謝謝好\n\n14:41.259 --> 15:03.455\n最後我就把今天對行政院提出的打詐的質詢希望對這些事項提出有關於詐欺犯罪危害防治條例的修正相關辦法有效打擊詐欺犯罪第一提供跨業照會的法據這在詐謗法當中要去修改第二行政機關參考免責條款的設計提供公務員保障的機制以及給予第一線基層及165專線員警能夠讓他們領到防詐的獎勵最後請競速\n\n15:09.161 --> 15:26.515\n推動警政署刑事警察局詐欺犯罪防治中心組織法制化並比照國民參與審判制度訂定成效評估相關法律法案辦法以利後續的組織整併真相院長您接受嗎我請內政部詳細的言語我們來處理謝謝院長謝謝部長兩位部長謝謝宗嘉斌委員質詢也謝謝主委長相關部會首長的備詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":24.482,"text":"嘉賓委員質詢 張志倫委員請準備主席 在場委員先進列席的政務機關上官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請我們卓院長以及先邀請法務部部長跟金管會彭主委麻煩請卓院長 法務部金管會備詢"},{"start":36.443,"end":60.291,"text":"總委員好院長好 部長好 主委好今天上午許多委員都關切國人最痛恨的打債來質詢這也是今天院長的專報就這麼巧在今天有一個2025年的亞洲詐騙報告當中提到亞洲14個國家或地區院長你覺得哪些國家的詐騙最頻繁"},{"start":63.102,"end":89.038,"text":"抱歉我倒沒有看到這個內容好 香港跟泰國被詐騙的頻率最頻繁但是台灣有高達七成的民眾在過去一年前曾經遭遇過詐騙所以可以理解為什麼民眾對於詐騙這麼深惡痛絕因為很多人都有類似的經驗結果中國的網路也不遑多讓他們說詐騙猖獗是因為A 騙子太多還是B 傻子太多院長你覺得呢"},{"start":91.124,"end":107.155,"text":"我想這是一個網路上他們在一種以笑虐的方式來進行但是我們嚴肅來看待往下看那請教法務部曾部長你認為引發竊盜的主要原因是因為受害人屬於防範他的財務還是贓物因為容易脫手變現引發了竊盜您的經驗"},{"start":109.905,"end":126.674,"text":"那個犯罪的類型很多應該不限於這兩種吧不限於這兩種但是有人說鼓勵竊盜是因為髒物很好脫手啊如果髒物賣不掉他偷了也沒用往下看所以呢請教彭主委你認為詐欺超越竊盜成為犯罪大宗的原因有可能是什麼"},{"start":130.632,"end":155.669,"text":"直接提示因為網路交易已經取代了當面交付虛擬資產取代了實體貨幣以前你偷要偷鈔票偷金銀珠寶還要囂張還要變現因此現在虛擬貨幣來無影去無蹤而且以前要到你身上爬現在不用直接在網路上你按個鍵網路就交易了這是詐騙的原因好我們往下看所以有一個"},{"start":156.403,"end":168.306,"text":"最近有幾件事情讓我們看到了第一個是有台灣有超過4家業者成立第三方支付的工會彭主委這是一個正面的一個訊息雖然我知道第三方支付不是您的業館"},{"start":170,"end":191.547,"text":"是 當然任何一個工會它有自律那當然會比沒有工會好很多好 那另外也要請部長來看一下我們上週才會到國泰世華跟華南銀行去實際考察他們銀行的零貴主詐跟他們跟警方配合辦案的情況結果調查檢報說假三資可以詐騙很多錢那我們來看一下詐騙了多少錢"},{"start":192.642,"end":213.311,"text":"第三方支付洗錢高達50億結果裁罰30萬民眾說太輕了院長你會不會覺得民眾會這樣感覺洗錢洗那麼多對不對那個案子部長應該瞭解那調查局辦了結果裁罰30萬速發部裁罰30萬院長你覺得什麼原因民眾什麼感覺"},{"start":214.668,"end":234.66,"text":"不成比例但是往往我們忽略一點因為我們目前看到的洗錢防止法不管是第8條還是第13條它都是行政法都是程序上對這些參與洗錢的業者在他的刑事司法審理之前行政機關先祭出的華凡"},{"start":235.731,"end":257.301,"text":"那滑環呢?以地方開放支付來講是多少?五萬到五百萬啊相較到洗錢金額當然是不成比例為什麼?院長要跟您說明我們在宣傳打造的時候為什麼民眾還是這樣的錯覺?因為我們在新聞媒體呈現出來的是龐大的洗錢金額跟少少的行政滑環事實上最重要的是哪一個部分?後面這個部分"},{"start":258.121,"end":259.702,"text":"像這樣的一個刑罰的處罰 是不是要等到法院審理完才能確定"},{"start":277.442,"end":305.105,"text":"這一定要判決 一定要判決 占卜確定院長 了解原因了沒有我聽了很多委員的質詢 很多民眾的抱怨哎呀 胖子太輕了啦為什麼認為胖子太輕我要生五十歲 要活五十萬其實這是一個誤解因為行政裁罰先 後面的司法審理刑罰在後但是你認為目前是不是普遍人民認為就算刑罰判了也不夠院長你的看法呢"},{"start":306.075,"end":333.673,"text":"行動應該調整合理而且他的這個判決的時間也應該速審速決好但是儘管如此司法院的判決我們尊重也期待但是呢我們還是行政局外可以有所作為舉例來講我曾經問過彭主委類似這樣的問題其實詐團他們都利用人頭去開戶但是在現在的銀行金融機構不管你是證券戶要開交割戶到銀行要KYC你銀行自己本身自然能開戶也要KYC"},{"start":334.253,"end":352.609,"text":"甚至呢 你是電子支付業者 這是金管會管的也要KYC KYC就認識你的客戶只要你臨櫃辦理 大概要很難用人頭辦 為什麼因為有一個叫財軍資訊公司的如果你拿人頭來辦他只要一查你這個名字 以前申請帳號的行動電話跟你現在不同一個"},{"start":353.63,"end":381.826,"text":"為什麼行動電話不同因為詐團用人頭啊就會叫他用同一支行動電話比較好控制因此跟原來的那個人頭的留存的電話號碼就不一樣了就抓到了但是目前第三方置物業者跟虛幣交易所他們沒有這樣的被要求在開戶的時候沒有辦法透過財經資訊公司去自行因為財經資訊公司會告訴原來的用戶告訴宗嘉斌我發一個OTP給你你是不是來開戶"},{"start":382.964,"end":411.352,"text":"沒有這個查核院長了解了那可不可以請彭主委說那為什麼你認為財經資訊公司沒有辦法對於三資跟虛幣交易所來進行這樣的照會這也是我們在這一次打造專法在檢討修法的時候比如說我們有個同業照會機制這很重要是那怎麼辦因為他不同業所以我們也提出了修法建議在這次裡面同業照會要誰來修法來請我們劉世芳部長跟我們的黃燕蘭黃部長因為這就是他們的業務了請"},{"start":414.92,"end":441.458,"text":"時間暫停 老闆請院長 因為打詐非常繁瑣希望透過您來聽我們質詢了解到各部會的合作很重要剛剛金管會要管 法務部要罰但是法要修 修哪一個法修詐欺犯罪危害防治條例這個是哪個部會主管的"},{"start":443.541,"end":467.874,"text":"沒有 很多部會一起處管但是主責是內政部有內政部 法務部 還有金管會金管會提出要修法請問院長您覺得哪個部要趕快提出來哪個部哪個部要趕快提出 炸房條例要修改第八條要把其中的金融機構以及提供虛擬資產服務事業或人員也要納入照會的機制是不是請行政院趕快提出修法法案"},{"start":469.115,"end":498.198,"text":"報告委員其實這個炸房條例有若干條文現在已經在內政委員會在討論現在的立法院的內政委會那您所提到的第8條如果要增刪下去的話我們要按照行政程序或按照立法程序來提出來好 那麼為什麼請黃部長來因為剛剛講的目前洗錢最多的就是第三方支付的假冒第三方支付業者黃部長是不是第三方支付是不是住發部管的第三方支付我們現在納管的 是的好 那我們來看一下"},{"start":499.143,"end":518.143,"text":"當我們要去透過這些洗錢的途徑防止詐騙來的金額逃竄無法追回我們有很多動作要做政府有在執行防詐措施但是在第一線不管是速發部在監看網路網頁的人還是我們內政部警政署第一線的員警他們往往要公文的層層覺醒"},{"start":519.5,"end":538.027,"text":"因此怕錯過時效如果以基層來講如果沒有獎勵他幹嘛做那麼多的事情那另外公務員執行這些書發部的黃部長有沒有我們同仁跟你說當他們要執行業務的時候也擔心被業者提告有沒有難免會有這樣的擔心"},{"start":538.752,"end":567.537,"text":"那我要告訴院長 問題出在哪裡我們炸房條例第38條當我們要協助打炸的時候這些金融機構 網路廣告平台第三方住業者 電商業者他可以有一個免責條款免除他業務上因所得秘密他來配合檢警調偵辦他有一個免責條款所以業者可以說 我提供給警方辦我不用擔心被什麼 被客戶告所以有這個免責條款但是公務員沒有"},{"start":568.26,"end":591.606,"text":"公務員沒有類似的設計所以速發部來講他主管的業務當中因為是管網路那麼動不動如果說配合辦案萬一給這些平台業者告公務員受不了院長要不要支持我們透過修法也讓公務員有這個機制讓他可以配合檢警調進行相關詐騙的防詐賭詐以及這些相關的偵辦作為我一向主張"},{"start":593.373,"end":619.707,"text":"公務人員在從事任何保障人民權利的時候跟自己的業務要用積極的方向來做如果他願意積極來做一些事情我們在刻意他重責顯然是不宜的所以如果到這個方向來做我們從這裡做合理的調整我覺得是好的方式那就請指示行政院相關的一個樣的一個免責的一個保障要有好其實我們目前呢防止詐騙基層員警很重要其中有一個叫做165專案165專線"},{"start":622.742,"end":640.118,"text":"部長 劉部長這是一個任務編組還是一個常態編制現在是一個任務編組是的那麼這些人的技工嘉獎各種的續獎都是要回到原機關辦理所以我們希望說行政院能夠協助這些辦案有功的人員能夠得到積極的鼓勵好不好 院長要不要支持他們"},{"start":641.144,"end":662.243,"text":"我請店長申報整合出來到底這個時候怎麼樣來處理對這些第一線很辛苦的員警們是最佳的鼓勵我們願意朝這個方向即刻來謝謝院長的肯定來我們今天看了這個表看了很多次了行政院認為說打詐有成趨勢是往下沒有錯但是我們看到這個紅線是詐騙金額那個那個"},{"start":667.404,"end":694.796,"text":"條塊是詐騙的案件量我們注意到在2014年的2月非常有效急速下降那個時候是因為我們社群的網路平台實施了廣告實名制這也因為法令通過之後我們速發部動手了詐團受到阻礙但是他馬上就找到對策所以案件又上升了所以長期看趨勢是下滑但是是有高有低就看我們有沒有持續的提出有效的防詐作為院長你說對不對"},{"start":696.072,"end":707.032,"text":"要抱持這一橫嗎報告委員這個圖表我們每一週的行政院的政務委員的政務會議林明新政委都會每個禮拜提出一個數字我只要求他"},{"start":708.171,"end":726.131,"text":"第一個不能往上升這要努力了解您剛剛說了很多次了我的意思是說不能只靠一朝一世因為詐團的手法千變萬化要持之以恆對不對所以持之以恆要怎麼辦我們往下看現在在我們刑事警察局底下要設一個詐欺犯罪防治中心他要推動他的組織法制化"},{"start":727.489,"end":755.754,"text":"但是要推動組織法治化在我們行政院要先行的共識要許到相關主管局的同意請問劉部長是不是我們行政院我們內政部這個刑事警察局的已經得到行政院內部的同意了是的 我們在討論的過程當中行政院的包括政務委員他們覺得說165把它法治化是一個非常可行的方向好 院長法治化之後行政院還要送到考試院是不是院長可以承諾9月底之前"},{"start":756.618,"end":776.413,"text":"完成兩院的會嫌把這個法制化工作完成我要跟內政部好好談法制化的功用是在提升它整體的效率跟所有在第一線工作同仁的一個工作上的尊重如果這兩個要同時達到要求的目標我才願意這樣做的考慮所以9月底前有沒有把握"},{"start":777.653,"end":798.905,"text":"我們會就內容來討論我們來研擬我是因為已經到院長辦公室了到行政院了我們希望後續能夠得我昨天也問過考試院全學部他們也是全力支持但是為什麼會有要這樣詢問呢因為我們看一下因為刑事警察局過去內部有37個內部單位有時候被質疑說機關龐雜需要整併因此我們也請提醒我們內政部跟行政院"},{"start":799.645,"end":824.682,"text":"根據中央行政機關組織基礎法第十條任務性已經完成或政策改變或者業務功能萎縮或重疊者要予診病所以當我們新設詐房中心的同時也要注意到刑事警察局內部這些分支機關的效能請一併做出檢討好不好好的謝謝那怎麼檢討呢其實我就提一個例子讓你們知道一下其實我們看到國民參與審判制度就是所謂俗稱國民法官法"},{"start":825.262,"end":854.254,"text":"他其實在當時五年前推動的時候他其實就很清楚的設定每年要提取民國報告而且執行滿六年之後要整個的通盤檢討如果有效繼續推如果效益不彰他就把它拿掉所以在我們立法的時候就把這樣的檢討機制放進去所以是不是也請行政院注意到我們推動打詐要搶求效率成如剛剛院長所說的要有效我們來實施檢討好不好好的好所以最後我們這邊就提出了"},{"start":854.864,"end":878.304,"text":"有關於競速推動對不起 上一頁刑事警察局的這個詐欺犯罪防治中心的組織法之外也請你們行政院參照國民參與審判制度的規則對於一個成效跟評估把這個辦法考評法定出來我一方面希望促成你們的成立二方面也責成行政院要經常的查核他們的成效院長可以嗎謝謝委員 這個建議很寶貴 謝謝好"},{"start":881.259,"end":903.455,"text":"最後我就把今天對行政院提出的打詐的質詢希望對這些事項提出有關於詐欺犯罪危害防治條例的修正相關辦法有效打擊詐欺犯罪第一提供跨業照會的法據這在詐謗法當中要去修改第二行政機關參考免責條款的設計提供公務員保障的機制以及給予第一線基層及165專線員警能夠讓他們領到防詐的獎勵最後請競速"},{"start":909.161,"end":926.515,"text":"推動警政署刑事警察局詐欺犯罪防治中心組織法制化並比照國民參與審判制度訂定成效評估相關法律法案辦法以利後續的組織整併真相院長您接受嗎我請內政部詳細的言語我們來處理謝謝院長謝謝部長兩位部長謝謝宗嘉斌委員質詢也謝謝主委長相關部會首長的備詢"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":2173,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時25分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士、先生。有請卓院長以及先邀請法務部部長跟金管會彭主委。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長、法務部、金管會備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：院長好、部長好、主委好。今天上午許多委員的質詢都關切國人最痛恨的打詐，這也是今天院長的專報，就這麼巧，在前幾天有一個「2025年亞洲詐騙報告」，當中提到亞洲14個國家或地區，院長，你覺得哪些國家的詐騙最頻繁？猜猜看。"],["卓院長榮泰：抱歉，我倒沒有看到這個內容。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，香港跟泰國被詐騙的頻率最頻繁，但是臺灣有高達七成的民眾在過去一年前曾經遭遇過詐騙，所以可以理解為什麼民眾對於詐騙這麼深惡痛絕，因為很多人都有類似的經驗，結果中國的網路也不遑多讓，他們說詐騙猖獗是因為A.騙子太多，還是B.傻子太多？院長，你覺得呢？我想這是網路上以一種笑謔的方式來進行，但是我們嚴肅來看待。請教法務部鄭部長，就您的經驗，你認為引發竊盜的主要原因是因為受害人疏於防範他的財物，還是因為贓物容易脫手變現，引發了竊盜？"],["鄭部長銘謙：犯罪的類型很多，應該也不限於這兩種。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不限於這兩種，但是有人說，鼓勵竊盜是因為贓物很好脫手，如果贓物賣不掉，他偷了也沒用。請教彭主委，你認為詐欺超越竊盜成為犯罪大宗的原因有可能是什麼？直接提示啦！因為網路交易已經取代了當面交付，虛擬資產取代了實體貨幣，以前你偷要偷鈔票、偷金銀珠寶，還要銷贓、還要變現，現在虛擬貨幣來無影去無蹤，而且以前要到你身旁才能扒，現在不用，你直接在網路上按個鍵，在網路上就交易了，這就是詐騙的原因。最近我們看到幾件事情，第一個，臺灣有超過4家業者成立第三方支付的公會，彭主委，這是不是一個正面的訊息？雖然我知道第三方支付不是您的業管。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，任何一個公會它有自律，當然會比沒有公會好很多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：另外也要請部長看一下，上週財委會到國泰世華跟華南銀行去實際考察他們銀行的臨櫃阻詐跟他們與警方配合辦案的情況，結果調查局的簡報說，假三支可以詐騙很多錢。我們來看一下詐騙了多少錢，第三方支付洗錢高達50億，結果裁罰30萬，民眾說太輕了。院長，你會不會覺得民眾會這樣感覺，洗錢洗那麼多，那個案子部長應該了解，那是調查局辦的，結果數發部裁罰30萬，院長，你覺得是什麼原因呢？民眾有什麼感覺呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：不成比例。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，不成比例，但是往往我們忽略一點，因為我們目前看到的洗錢防制法，不管是第八條還是第十三條，它都是行政罰，都是程序上對這些參與洗錢的業者，在它的刑事司法審理之前，行政機關先祭出的罰鍰。以第三方支付來講，罰鍰是多少？5萬到500萬啊！相較洗錢的金額當然是不成比例，為什麼？院長，我要跟您說明，我們在宣傳打詐的時候為什麼民眾還是有這樣的錯覺？因為我們在新聞媒體呈現出來的是龐大的洗錢金額跟少少的行政罰鍰，事實上最重要的是哪一個部分？是後面這個部分，是洗錢防制法第二條、第十九條跟第二十條，第十九條針對犯罪所得、第二十條針對無合理來源，可以處三年以上十年以下，或者六個月以上五年以下有期徒刑，部長，是不是這樣子？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：像這樣一個刑罰的處罰，是不是要等到法院審理完才能確定？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這一定要判決才能夠確定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以院長了解原因了沒有？我聽了很多委員的質詢、很多民眾的抱怨，都說判太輕了，為什麼認為判太輕？洗錢50億才罰50萬。其實這是一個誤解，因為行政裁罰先，後面的司法審理、刑罰在後，但是目前是不是普遍人民認為就算刑罰判了也不夠？院長，你的看法呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：刑度應該調整合理，而且它的判決時間也應該速審速決。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對於司法院的判決，我們尊重也期待，但儘管如此，行政院還是可以有所作為。舉例來講，我曾經問過彭主委類似的問題，其實詐團都利用人頭去開戶，但是現在的銀行、金融機構，不管你是證券戶要開交割戶，到銀行要KYC，銀行本身自然人開戶也要KYC，甚至你是電子支付業者，這是金管會管的，也要KYC，KYC就是認識你的客戶，只要你臨櫃辦理，大概很難用人頭辦，為什麼？因為有一個叫財金資訊公司的，如果你拿人頭來辦，他只要一查，你這個名字以前申請帳號的行動電話跟你現在不同一個，為什麼行動電話不同？因為詐團用人頭，就會叫他用同一支行動電話，比較好控制，因此跟原來那個人頭留存的電話號碼就不一樣了，就抓到了。但是目前第三方支付業者跟虛幣交易所沒有被這樣要求，在開戶的時候，沒有辦法透過財金資訊公司去自行查核，因為財金資訊公司會告訴原來的用戶，比如說告訴鍾佳濱，我發一個OTP給你，你是不是來開戶？他沒有這個查核，院長了解了嗎？所以可不可以請彭主委說明，為什麼你認為財金資訊公司沒有辦法對於三支跟虛幣交易所進行這樣的照會？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這也是這一次打詐專法在檢討、修法的時候，比如說我們有一個同業照會機制，這很重要……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，那怎麼辦？"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為他不同業，所以我們這次也提出了修法建議。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，同業照會，那要誰來修法？請劉世芳部長跟黃彥男部長，因為這就是他們的業務了。時間暫停。"],["主席：麻煩請。"],["鍾委員佳濱：院長，因為打詐非常繁瑣，希望透過您來聽我們質詢，了解到各部會的合作很重要。剛剛金管會要管，法務部要罰，但是法要修，修哪一個法？修詐欺犯罪危害防制條例，這個是哪個部會主管的？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，是很多部會一起主管，要看……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，但是主責的是內政部。"],["劉部長世芳：有內政部、法務部還有金管會，都有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：金管會提出要修法，請問院長，您覺得哪個部會要趕快提出來？哪個部會要趕快提出詐防條例的修法？要修改第八條啊！要把其中的「金融機構及提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員」也納入照會的機制，是不是請行政院趕快提出修法法案？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，其實詐防條例有若干條文現在已經在內政委員會討論，即現在的立法院內政委員會，而您所提到的第八條，如果要增刪下去的話，我們要按照行政程序或按照立法程序來提出。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，為什麼請黃部長來？因為剛剛講到，目前洗錢最多的就是假冒第三方支付業者的，黃部長，是不是？第三方支付是不是數發部管的？"],["黃部長彥男：對，第三方支付現在是我們納管的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。那我們來看一下，當我們要去透過這些洗錢的途徑防止詐騙來的金額逃竄、無法追回，我們有很多的動作要做，政府有在執行防詐措施，但是在第一線，不管是數發部在監看網路網頁的人，還是內政部警政署的第一線員警，他們往往要公文的層層決行，因此怕錯過時效。以基層來講，如果沒有獎勵，他幹嘛做那麼多的事情？另外，公務人員執行這些，請問數發部黃部長，有沒有遇過同仁跟你說，當他們要執行這些業務的時候，也擔心被業者提告，有沒有？"],["黃部長彥男：難免會有這樣的擔心。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我要告訴院長問題出在哪裡，詐防條例第三十八條規定，當我們要協助打詐的時候，這些金融機構、網路廣告平臺業者、第三方支付業者、電商業者可以有一個免責條款，免除它業務上應守的秘密，它來配合檢警調偵辦，會有一個免責條款，所以業者可以說：我提供給警方辦，我不用擔心被客戶告，因為有這個免責條款。但是公務員沒有，公務員沒有類似的設計。以數發部來講，它主管的業務當中，因為是管網路，如果它配合辦案，萬一被這些平臺業者告，公務員會受不了。院長要不要支持我們透過修法，也讓公務員有這個機制，讓他可以配合檢警調進行詐騙的防詐、堵詐以及相關的偵辦作為？"],["卓院長榮泰：我一向主張公務人員在從事任何保障人民權利跟自己業務的時候，要用積極的方向來做，如果他願意積極來做一些事情，我們再課以他重責，顯然是不宜的，所以如何朝這個方向來做，我們從這裡做合理的調整，我覺得是好的辦法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那就請指示行政院要有相關的免責保障。其次，目前防制詐騙，基層員警很重要，其中有一個叫做165專線。劉部長，這是一個任務編組，還是一個常態編制？"],["劉部長世芳：現在是一個任務編組。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，這些人的記功、嘉獎及各種敘獎都要回到原機關辦理，所以我們希望行政院協助這些辦案有功人員能夠得到積極的鼓勵，好不好？院長要不要支持他們？"],["卓院長榮泰：我請內政部整合出來……"],["劉部長世芳：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：到底這個要怎麼樣來處理，對這些第一線很辛苦的員警們是最佳的鼓勵，我們願意朝這個方向即刻來處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝院長的肯定。我們今天看這個表很多次了，行政院認為打詐有成，趨勢是往下，沒有錯，我們看到這條紅線是詐騙金額，條塊則是詐騙的案件量。我們注意到在114年2月非常有效、急速下降，那個時候是因為社群網路平臺實施了廣告實名制，這也是因為法令通過之後，數發部動手了，詐團受到阻礙，但是他馬上又找到對策，所以案件又上升了。雖然長期看趨勢是下滑，但是有高有低，就看我們有沒有持續提出有效的防詐作為。院長，你說對不對？要不要持之以恆嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：有關這個圖表，每一週行政院政務委員的政務會議，林明昕政委每個禮拜都會提出一個數字，我只要求他：第一個、不能往上升，這要努力。再來，平緩往下降……"],["鍾委員佳濱：了解，您剛剛說了很多次，我的意思是不能只靠一招一式，因為詐團的手法千變萬化，要持之以恆，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以持之以恆要怎麼辦？現在刑事警察局底下要設一個詐欺犯罪防制中心，要推動組織法制化，但是要推動組織法制化在行政院要先形成共識，取得相關主管機關的同意。請問劉部長，內政部刑事警察局的這個中心是不是已經得到行政院內部的同意了？"],["劉部長世芳：是的，我們在討論的過程當中，包括行政院政務委員也覺得把165法制化是一個非常可行的方向。"],["鍾委員佳濱：法制化之後，行政院還要送到考試院，院長是不是可以承諾9月底之前完成兩院的會銜，把這個法制化工作完成？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我要跟內政部好好談。法制化的功用是在提升整體的效率跟對所有第一線工作同仁在工作上的尊重，如果這兩個要同時達到要求的目標，我才願意這樣考慮。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以9月底前有沒有把握？因為你們……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會就內容來討論。"],["劉部長世芳：我們來研擬。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我知道，因為已經到院長辦公室了、到行政院了，我們希望後續能夠……我昨天也問過考試院、銓敘部，他們也是全力支持，但是為什麼我會這樣詢問呢？我們看一下，因為刑事警察局過去有37個內部單位，有時候被質疑機關龐雜需要整併，因此我也提醒內政部跟行政院，根據中央行政機關組織基準法第十條，任務性已經完成或政策改變，或者業務功能萎縮或重疊者，要予以整併，所以當新設詐防中心的同時，也要注意到刑事警察局內部這些分支機關的效能，請一併做出檢討，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：怎麼檢討呢？我就提一個例子，讓你們知道一下，我們看到國民參與審判制度就是俗稱的國民法官法，在五年前推動的時候，其實就很清楚地設定每年要提評估報告，而且執行滿六年之後要整個通盤檢討，如果有效，繼續推；如果效益不彰，就把它拿掉，所以我們在立法的時候就把這樣的檢討機制放進去，是不是也請行政院注意到推動打詐也要講求效率？誠如剛剛院長所說的要有效，我們來實質檢討，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：刑事警察局詐欺犯罪防制中心的組織法制化，也請行政院參照國民參與審判制度把成效評估辦法訂出來。我一方面希望促成你們成立，二方面也責成行政院要經常查核他們的成效，院長可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，這個建議很寶貴，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後，我今天對行政院打詐提出質詢，針對下列事項提出有關詐欺犯罪危害防制條例修正相關辦法，以有效打擊詐欺犯罪：第一、提供跨業照會法據，這要在詐防法當中去修改。第二、行政機關參考免責條款設計，提供公務員保障機制。第三、第一線基層及165專線員警能夠領到防詐獎勵。最後，請儘速推動警政署刑事警察局詐欺犯罪防制中心組織法制化，並比照國民參與審判制度訂定成效評估相關辦法，以利後續的組織整併跟監偵效能。院長，您接受嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，我請內政部詳細研議，我們來處理。"],["劉部長世芳：我們來努力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝院長，謝謝兩位部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員質詢，也謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長備詢。","報告院會，今天中午以前最後一位是張智倫委員即將質詢。謝謝臺中選區的黃健豪委員，從早上專案報告參與到現在，再一次致謝。接下來，張智倫委員結束質詢之後，我們會進行午休。","現在請張智倫委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":49,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-25","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-08-15"],"gazette_id":"1147101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第25次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1147101_00001"}}}