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944.31, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 944.31, \"end\": 944.47, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 944.47, \"end\": 944.49, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"訊\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:10,647 --> 00:00:14,110\n謝謝主席有請院長麻煩請卓院長備詢部委員好\n\n2\n00:00:28,193 --> 00:00:44,700\n我想從最近大家一直在關心所謂的這個詐騙的這樣子的一個議題風源一家五口的一個悲劇我想這個不是只有台灣其實詐騙這樣子的一個全世界都在關注的議題其實在歐美也是一樣的\n\n3\n00:00:45,700 --> 00:01:03,997\n那根據統計27%的受害者他們在接觸詐騙的同時其實在第一個小時內受騙的人其實也非常非常之多那另外呢關於投資以及交友詐騙這個長時期的被養套殺就是取得所謂的被害人的一個信任\n\n4\n00:01:04,577 --> 00:01:23,596\n那到巨額的一個金錢被騙那我想這一年平均下來整個所有的犯罪所得是高達將近這個還是2022年的統計高達700億以上那我想這一連串我們看到詐騙的一個問題都是長時間大家普遍關注的一個議題\n\n5\n00:01:24,637 --> 00:01:39,674\n那當然去年我們的行政院跟立法院其實也合作通過了這個新打炸四法那我們從這個內容當中可以看到從市炸、堵炸、防炸跟阻炸以及我們的城炸這五個部分的面向\n\n6\n00:01:40,794 --> 00:01:59,740\n當然我們也看到最近其實我們也有很多就是破貨的一些案件當然也交出了一些成績單但我想做的永遠不夠根據今年的7月光是打炸儀表板當中數據顯示我就以一個地區來做這樣子的一個例子說明包含台中\n\n7\n00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:22,321\n光是詐騙集團被破獲的數量是高居全國第一那另外呢他的這個詐騙集團被破獲的高達有50團432個人落網那受理的這個詐騙的案件呢也是高居第二那整個整個所有的這個詐騙的案件數是高達2245件\n\n8\n00:02:24,663 --> 00:02:45,763\n那造成的財損光是7月份就已經高達了有11億多那我不曉得為什麼很多的詐騙集團是選擇在中部那也有許多的這個查獲的數量其實在台中也是最多的但並沒有因為被查獲的數量增多\n\n9\n00:02:46,539 --> 00:02:58,272\n而下降他所被詐騙的這樣子的一個金額跟財損這個是兩相矛盾的一個現象我們有沒有分析過這個背後的原因大概會是什麼\n\n10\n00:03:00,888 --> 00:03:17,833\n委員我先報告一下您提到說台中市最多那其實有我們警政署的資料大概六都裡面第一個人口多第二個交通便利還有就是說他在包括網路或者是其他的通訊都非常的好而且因為他在大樓裡面或是在園區裡面\n\n11\n00:03:19,153 --> 00:03:44,614\n隱密性反而高你在偏鄉來得好所以被查獲到的次數就是您看到的統計資料就比較多我想這個是我們警政署的同仁在統計的時候所得到的一個統計的結果所以我想我們也會特別留意在都會地區如何可以把這個打詐可以把這個詐騙集團可以來處理的一個最重要的一個關鍵部長也點出了我等一下要接下來要詢問的\n\n12\n00:03:45,871 --> 00:04:07,525\n這個是媒體的報導我想已經不止一次的報導包含台中的七級高級商辦因為它的管制嚴格但反而成為博弈炸團的工作基地這個其實也是都經過媒體多次的報導連同這樣子的報導當中其實我們可以看到\n\n13\n00:04:08,005 --> 00:04:30,332\n這些所謂的這個高級商辦豪宅地區那原本他的管制其實就是嚴格但是也很容易淪為所謂的詐騙集團他們的工作基地那就如同剛剛部長所說的因為隱秘性高但是呢就是他的所有人就是房屋的所有人他不管是短期租賃也好或者是他自己持有也好\n\n14\n00:04:31,141 --> 00:04:47,190\n其實在短期租賃容易讓他們比方說他們可以用比較高於行情的一些租金可能月付押金的一個方式他就可以租下這個豪宅那因為豪宅跟豪宅之間鄰居啊其實他們的互動時間相對的是減少的對\n\n15\n00:04:48,090 --> 00:05:12,775\n所以其實他們的管理可能就產生了這樣子的一個漏洞那在這樣子的一個漏洞當他們聽到一些風吹草動的時候他們是即刻就可以逃離現場這個也讓我們的警方其實也是長期來是難以追查這是原因之一第二個我剛剛講因為詐騙集團他們通常有時候不是只有用短期租賃他們是直接買下合法的掩護\n\n16\n00:05:13,675 --> 00:05:32,756\n或者所謂的直接買下合法掩護因為他把它當成一個長期作案的一個基地那基於他的產權其實是合法的那相對來講他的管委會或者他的保全其實並沒有明確的被法律授權去進行所謂的通報相對的來講也保護這些所謂的詐騙集團的總部的一個安全\n\n17\n00:05:33,457 --> 00:05:49,208\n這個也變成是我們在看到像七夕這樣所謂的高風險的一個社區租賃或者是購置的一個行為我們針對這個部分有沒有一套可以更加有效而且管理的一個機制來彌補這樣子的一個漏洞\n\n18\n00:05:49,841 --> 00:06:09,690\n報告委我們了解這樣的狀況你所提到的非常的正確也就是說有的時候他還會用人頭戶的方式他並不是用真名然後再來就是豪宅跟豪宅或者是房間跟房間之間大家都互不相認識除非說他出入或者是有一些其他的犯罪這樣子的部分這地方的政府警察才會去處理\n\n19\n00:06:10,370 --> 00:06:29,515\n所以我們現在中央跟地方的部分就要來協助就是如果發現它有異常也就譬如說它在電腦網路上面突然跳增非常的高或是用電量非常高的話我們會用這樣的方式來查找有可能潛在的加害的這個集團那這個都要長時間的監控才有可能達到這樣的目的\n\n20\n00:06:29,955 --> 00:06:47,330\n所以現在這些長時間的監控已經開始在做手進行其實我們都會有留意但是最最最佳的方式還是說會透過譬如說有人來檢舉那我們會更快因為如果詐騙集團假設他們都是比較年輕的或是說看起來很像是犯罪幫派\n\n21\n00:06:48,530 --> 00:07:03,939\n這樣的話警方才會特別留意但是如果他打扮得很時髦很登對或者看不出來的話人家以為他就是豪宅裡面的住戶所以還是要透過檢舉的方式比較好那如果說郭委員有這方面的資訊的話您給我們馬上就來處理\n\n22\n00:07:04,879 --> 00:07:26,289\n我想這個七期的模式應該絕非是個案那我們也擔心其實因為豪宅也不是只有台中有其實各地都有豪宅但是類似像這樣子的一個所謂的這個犯罪的模式我們也擔心它其實已經會變成是全台灣各地的豪宅型或複合型的這些所謂的社區它會形成一個巨大的一個社區防線的破口\n\n23\n00:07:27,410 --> 00:07:42,430\n我想這樣子的一個模式有可能會複製到全台灣各地那我想很多的豪宅其實他們追求所謂的這個高隱私就我剛剛講的鄰居其實不互相往來那就會變成零監督的一個環境再加上有時候是租期短\n\n24\n00:07:43,451 --> 00:07:58,128\n豬集團就更難掌握他到底是第幾手的轉租所以這個人的流動讓很多的成豬人的動態其實根本沒有人知道所以其實這個也是我們非常擔心的一個部分那另外就是\n\n25\n00:07:58,148 --> 00:08:20,809\n就是在詐騙集團就是利用這些所謂的這些漏洞那北中南各地他們在用所謂的VPN或者是多跳節點這些所謂的科技的一個手段就會讓我們的警方其實更難掌握那這也是我們真的一直不斷的我們在想這個上有政策正在下有對策其實他們也不斷的在翻新他們所謂的這個詐騙的一些手法啦\n\n26\n00:08:21,149 --> 00:08:47,841\n那我們很擔心這不是一個單一的個案而是全台灣目前持續在擴散當中的一個狀況那我想如果再加上這個屋主他自己本身就是詐騙集團的成員如果他又是詐騙集團成員利用自家的豪宅來進行所謂的犯罪其實管委會跟物業管理我們應該要怎麼樣來從外圍來做控管這個我們有想過嗎\n\n27\n00:08:48,601 --> 00:09:11,898\n是我想我們可以從不一定是警政系統啦譬如說民政系統或者是大樓管委會就是如果有出入人口複雜或者是很奇怪這整個月都沒有人進出可是用電量又非常的高然後每天都叫便當這表示說他們可能在裡面從事的是詐騙的行為那這個還是一樣如果管委會不願意提供給我們這個資訊因為管委會他是要保護用戶\n\n28\n00:09:12,839 --> 00:09:34,204\n他自己本身的一個隱秘性他如果沒辦法提供我們這些資訊的話會比較難一點但是我們還會從其他的管道來試看看好像譬如說今天早上有多位委員有提到有一位在抖音上面在炫耀說他賺了300萬然後他只要賠7000多塊然後就可以不被收押禁建\n\n29\n00:09:35,024 --> 00:09:58,243\n事實上我們也在提供資訊的時候我們的刑事警察非常的認真院長有交代其實我們在8月9號的時候已經通報抖音把這個影片要下架而且我們在8月13號中午的時候已經將這位姓廖的疑似嫌疑犯查緝盜案函請雲林地檢署來偵辦\n\n30\n00:09:59,204 --> 00:10:21,853\n是就是說警方如果有任何這方面的資訊提供給我們的話我們會很快不管是從網路或是其他實體實體的這個查緝到案的部分呢動作都會非常的快好那接下來我想要請問的就是所謂的這個跨部會的治安協作的部分了我想這個不是單一只有這個警政署或者是我們的內政部那還包含\n\n31\n00:10:23,102 --> 00:10:51,662\n移民署或者是甚至我們的這個抒發部的部分那我想這個跨部會的一個協作那不管是我們的這個公寓大廈管理條例當中我們是不是也要做有一些灰色地帶的一個修正來防堵這一類的所謂的這個詐騙的這個事件那另外還有包含就是我們這個對外籍人士的車手他們短期來台的動態其實掌握不足這個其實也會成為這個詐騙當中的另外一個我們\n\n32\n00:10:52,322 --> 00:11:17,572\n其實可以去關注的一個地方那另外呢就是所謂的這個高隱密性的所謂的機房的這個網路流量的分析其實這也是警政署這個地方或者書發部這個部分我們可能也要是要加強喔那我想呢在我們的這個詐騙集團其實他比較常利用剛剛我們講到的是豪宅去收受所謂的這個大筆的現金讓金流的部分其實掌握其實是\n\n33\n00:11:19,153 --> 00:11:44,529\n有時候它的金流是掌握的是更加的一個困難那我在這裡我想請教一下這個關於金管會的部分那金管會是不是我們請金管會那金管會是不是能夠將這個豪宅當中異常的現金流納入洗錢防治法的一個監控網那這個部分我們有這樣子的一個措施怎麼樣來盯這一類的漏洞\n\n34\n00:11:45,009 --> 00:11:54,926\n世保委員如果它這個豪宅是有涉及到貸款那我們當然是完全能夠掌握到這個金流如果它大額資金的流動本來就在我們洗錢房子的納管範圍之內\n\n35\n00:11:56,604 --> 00:12:25,243\n那另外再是科技的部分我想就是我剛剛提到這個豪宅內當中的這些機房其實它要去偵查的難度其實是比較高的那犯罪集團它常常會利用所謂的這個VPN這個多跳節點的一個隱密的一個網路的一個流量那書發部在這個部分有沒有透過類似的科技上的一個手段能夠協助發現及早發現類似這樣子一個高密隱密性的一個機房\n\n36\n00:12:26,619 --> 00:12:39,764\n報告委員這個的確是個問題那偵測的方式剛剛講就從流量或者是甚至於可以偵測就是網路流量還有用電量那甚至還有人說可以用電磁波去偵測\n\n37\n00:12:41,008 --> 00:13:00,159\n這個我們都有在持續關注但不過現在最大問題是第一個就是說尤其是他們當連上VPN到國外以後他們常常是真正發送那些大量的訊息或者這種詐騙的訊息是從國外發送回來所以國內出去的流量不大可是到國外就大量進來所以說有時候在技術上比較困難鎖定\n\n38\n00:13:01,159 --> 00:13:28,699\n另外一點就是說就算我們有懷疑還是需要有法規的依據去進去查驗所以我想在這裡面我講的技術上還是有點挑戰那在實行上的確需要跟各部會合作你說技術上其實目前還是需要有挑戰就是剛剛講就是說第一個就是說它的流量因為現在正好很多有方法嗎我們有找到一些方法嗎或者是我們可以複製國外他們怎麼樣來\n\n39\n00:13:29,929 --> 00:13:52,158\n因為他們現在都是用VPN連到國外去說真正的犯罪的server是在國外所以大量的流量是從國外進來這個都不見得是從公寓裡面出去的所以這個是當然我們可以跟ISP業者或者ISP業者合作看看能不能把這種流量把它找出來不過\n\n40\n00:13:53,741 --> 00:14:17,421\n是有機會可以去解決不過這目前還是有些挑戰就是好這些挑戰我們什麼時候可以盡快的我們再回去研究一下但是我就覺得這個會有挑戰這委員的想法很好但是我想這個我們再回去再去分析也跟委員報告剛剛委員提到的這個流量部分其實在原來我們警方在處理這個\n\n41\n00:14:19,442 --> 00:14:46,876\n攔截違反著作權的信號OTTV那一塊已經處理過炸團也有這種情況但是炸團他本身進一步的把流量分散所以現在比較不容易處理但是這個機制警方其實一直持續有在掌握有跟電信公司在掌握當中我想打炸這個工作其實真的是從上到下我們每一個人其實都要特別去\n\n42\n00:14:47,512 --> 00:15:06,783\n去關注最後其實我還想要再強調一點我想許多的受害者應該是說被詐騙的這些受害者他們其實都是社會支持系統比較薄弱的一些族群比方說像老人家我想這個部分其實他們失去了畢生的積蓄之後可能\n\n43\n00:15:07,703 --> 00:15:29,900\n苦於不敢開口那也不敢去報警然後他們礙於顏面的關係但最後其實我們看到有許多就因此走上絕路那我想這些數字上遠遠高於資料的一個顯示那納入公共衛生或者是在我們的社福的部分來填補這些社會的安全網的一個裂縫也是我們當務之急這個部分就是\n\n44\n00:15:43,689 --> 00:15:44,490\n好謝謝各位請回答資訊\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10647\t14110\t謝謝主席 有請院長麻煩請卓院長備詢部委員好\n28193\t44700\t我想從最近大家一直在關心所謂的這個詐騙的這樣子的一個議題風源一家五口的一個悲劇我想這個不是只有台灣其實詐騙這樣子的一個全世界都在關注的議題其實在歐美也是一樣的\n45700\t63997\t那根據統計27%的受害者他們在接觸詐騙的同時其實在第一個小時內受騙的人其實也非常非常之多那另外呢關於投資以及交友詐騙這個長時期的被養套殺就是取得所謂的被害人的一個信任\n64577\t83596\t那到巨額的一個金錢被騙那我想這一年平均下來整個所有的犯罪所得是高達將近這個還是2022年的統計高達700億以上那我想這一連串我們看到詐騙的一個問題都是長時間大家普遍關注的一個議題\n84637\t99674\t那當然去年我們的行政院跟立法院其實也合作通過了這個新打炸四法那我們從這個內容當中可以看到從市炸、堵炸、防炸跟阻炸以及我們的城炸這五個部分的面向\n100794\t119740\t當然我們也看到最近其實我們也有很多就是破貨的一些案件當然也交出了一些成績單但我想做的永遠不夠根據今年的7月光是打炸儀表板當中數據顯示我就以一個地區來做這樣子的一個例子說明包含台中\n120800\t142321\t光是詐騙集團被破獲的數量是高居全國第一那另外呢他的這個詐騙集團被破獲的高達有50團432個人落網那受理的這個詐騙的案件呢也是高居第二那整個整個所有的這個詐騙的案件數是高達2245件\n144663\t165763\t那造成的財損光是7月份就已經高達了有11億多那我不曉得為什麼很多的詐騙集團是選擇在中部那也有許多的這個查獲的數量其實在台中也是最多的但並沒有因為被查獲的數量增多\n166539\t178272\t而下降他所被詐騙的這樣子的一個金額跟財損這個是兩相矛盾的一個現象我們有沒有分析過這個背後的原因大概會是什麼\n180888\t197833\t委員我先報告一下您提到說台中市最多那其實有我們警政署的資料大概六都裡面第一個人口多第二個交通便利還有就是說他在包括網路或者是其他的通訊都非常的好而且因為他在大樓裡面或是在園區裡面\n199153\t224614\t隱密性反而高你在偏鄉來得好所以被查獲到的次數就是您看到的統計資料就比較多我想這個是我們警政署的同仁在統計的時候所得到的一個統計的結果所以我想我們也會特別留意在都會地區如何可以把這個打詐可以把這個詐騙集團可以來處理的一個最重要的一個關鍵部長也點出了我等一下要接下來要詢問的\n225871\t247525\t這個是媒體的報導我想已經不止一次的報導包含台中的七級高級商辦因為它的管制嚴格但反而成為博弈炸團的工作基地這個其實也是都經過媒體多次的報導連同這樣子的報導當中其實我們可以看到\n248005\t270332\t這些所謂的這個高級商辦豪宅地區那原本他的管制其實就是嚴格但是也很容易淪為所謂的詐騙集團他們的工作基地那就如同剛剛部長所說的因為隱秘性高但是呢就是他的所有人就是房屋的所有人他不管是短期租賃也好或者是他自己持有也好\n271141\t287190\t其實在短期租賃容易讓他們比方說他們可以用比較高於行情的一些租金可能月付押金的一個方式他就可以租下這個豪宅那因為豪宅跟豪宅之間鄰居啊其實他們的互動時間相對的是減少的對\n288090\t312775\t所以其實他們的管理可能就產生了這樣子的一個漏洞那在這樣子的一個漏洞當他們聽到一些風吹草動的時候他們是即刻就可以逃離現場這個也讓我們的警方其實也是長期來是難以追查這是原因之一第二個我剛剛講因為詐騙集團他們通常有時候不是只有用短期租賃他們是直接買下合法的掩護\n313675\t332756\t或者所謂的直接買下合法掩護因為他把它當成一個長期作案的一個基地那基於他的產權其實是合法的那相對來講他的管委會或者他的保全其實並沒有明確的被法律授權去進行所謂的通報相對的來講也保護這些所謂的詐騙集團的總部的一個安全\n333457\t349208\t這個也變成是我們在看到像七夕這樣所謂的高風險的一個社區租賃或者是購置的一個行為我們針對這個部分有沒有一套可以更加有效而且管理的一個機制來彌補這樣子的一個漏洞\n349841\t369690\t報告委我們了解這樣的狀況你所提到的非常的正確也就是說有的時候他還會用人頭戶的方式他並不是用真名然後再來就是豪宅跟豪宅或者是房間跟房間之間大家都互不相認識除非說他出入或者是有一些其他的犯罪這樣子的部分這地方的政府警察才會去處理\n370370\t389515\t所以我們現在中央跟地方的部分就要來協助就是如果發現它有異常也就譬如說它在電腦網路上面突然跳增非常的高或是用電量非常高的話我們會用這樣的方式來查找有可能潛在的加害的這個集團那這個都要長時間的監控才有可能達到這樣的目的\n389955\t407330\t所以現在這些長時間的監控已經開始在做手進行其實我們都會有留意但是最最最佳的方式還是說會透過譬如說有人來檢舉那我們會更快因為如果詐騙集團假設他們都是比較年輕的或是說看起來很像是犯罪幫派\n408530\t423939\t這樣的話警方才會特別留意但是如果他打扮得很時髦很登對或者看不出來的話人家以為他就是豪宅裡面的住戶所以還是要透過檢舉的方式比較好那如果說郭委員有這方面的資訊的話您給我們馬上就來處理\n424879\t446289\t我想這個七期的模式應該絕非是個案那我們也擔心其實因為豪宅也不是只有台中有其實各地都有豪宅但是類似像這樣子的一個所謂的這個犯罪的模式我們也擔心它其實已經會變成是全台灣各地的豪宅型或複合型的這些所謂的社區它會形成一個巨大的一個社區防線的破口\n447410\t462430\t我想這樣子的一個模式有可能會複製到全台灣各地那我想很多的豪宅其實他們追求所謂的這個高隱私就我剛剛講的鄰居其實不互相往來那就會變成零監督的一個環境再加上有時候是租期短\n463451\t478128\t豬集團就更難掌握他到底是第幾手的轉租所以這個人的流動讓很多的成豬人的動態其實根本沒有人知道所以其實這個也是我們非常擔心的一個部分那另外就是\n478148\t500809\t就是在詐騙集團就是利用這些所謂的這些漏洞那北中南各地他們在用所謂的VPN或者是多跳節點這些所謂的科技的一個手段就會讓我們的警方其實更難掌握那這也是我們真的一直不斷的我們在想這個上有政策正在下有對策其實他們也不斷的在翻新他們所謂的這個詐騙的一些手法啦\n501149\t527841\t那我們很擔心這不是一個單一的個案而是全台灣目前持續在擴散當中的一個狀況那我想如果再加上這個屋主他自己本身就是詐騙集團的成員如果他又是詐騙集團成員利用自家的豪宅來進行所謂的犯罪其實管委會跟物業管理我們應該要怎麼樣來從外圍來做控管這個我們有想過嗎\n528601\t551898\t是 我想我們可以從不一定是警政系統啦譬如說民政系統或者是大樓管委會就是如果有出入人口複雜或者是很奇怪這整個月都沒有人進出可是用電量又非常的高然後每天都叫便當這表示說他們可能在裡面從事的是詐騙的行為那這個還是一樣如果管委會不願意提供給我們這個資訊因為管委會他是要保護用戶\n552839\t574204\t他自己本身的一個隱秘性他如果沒辦法提供我們這些資訊的話會比較難一點但是我們還會從其他的管道來試看看好像譬如說今天早上有多位委員有提到有一位在抖音上面在炫耀說他賺了300萬然後他只要賠7000多塊然後就可以不被收押禁建\n575024\t598243\t事實上我們也在提供資訊的時候我們的刑事警察非常的認真院長有交代其實我們在8月9號的時候已經通報抖音把這個影片要下架而且我們在8月13號中午的時候已經將這位姓廖的疑似嫌疑犯查緝盜案函請雲林地檢署來偵辦\n599204\t621853\t是就是說警方如果有任何這方面的資訊提供給我們的話我們會很快不管是從網路或是其他實體實體的這個查緝到案的部分呢動作都會非常的快好那接下來我想要請問的就是所謂的這個跨部會的治安協作的部分了我想這個不是單一只有這個警政署或者是我們的內政部那還包含\n623102\t651662\t移民署或者是甚至我們的這個抒發部的部分那我想這個跨部會的一個協作那不管是我們的這個公寓大廈管理條例當中我們是不是也要做有一些灰色地帶的一個修正來防堵這一類的所謂的這個詐騙的這個事件那另外還有包含就是我們這個對外籍人士的車手他們短期來台的動態其實掌握不足這個其實也會成為這個詐騙當中的另外一個我們\n652322\t677572\t其實可以去關注的一個地方那另外呢就是所謂的這個高隱密性的所謂的機房的這個網路流量的分析其實這也是警政署這個地方或者書發部這個部分我們可能也要是要加強喔那我想呢在我們的這個詐騙集團其實他比較常利用剛剛我們講到的是豪宅去收受所謂的這個大筆的現金讓金流的部分其實掌握其實是\n679153\t704529\t有時候它的金流是掌握的是更加的一個困難那我在這裡我想請教一下這個關於金管會的部分那金管會是不是我們請金管會那金管會是不是能夠將這個豪宅當中異常的現金流納入洗錢防治法的一個監控網那這個部分我們有這樣子的一個措施怎麼樣來盯這一類的漏洞\n705009\t714926\t世保委員 如果它這個豪宅是有涉及到貸款那我們當然是完全能夠掌握到這個金流如果它大額資金的流動本來就在我們洗錢房子的納管範圍之內\n716604\t745243\t那另外再是科技的部分我想就是我剛剛提到這個豪宅內當中的這些機房其實它要去偵查的難度其實是比較高的那犯罪集團它常常會利用所謂的這個VPN這個多跳節點的一個隱密的一個網路的一個流量那書發部在這個部分有沒有透過類似的科技上的一個手段能夠協助發現及早發現類似這樣子一個高密隱密性的一個機房\n746619\t759764\t報告委員 這個的確是個問題那偵測的方式剛剛講就從流量或者是甚至於可以偵測就是網路流量還有用電量那甚至還有人說可以用電磁波去偵測\n761008\t780159\t這個我們都有在持續關注但不過現在最大問題是第一個就是說尤其是他們當連上VPN到國外以後他們常常是真正發送那些大量的訊息或者這種詐騙的訊息是從國外發送回來所以國內出去的流量不大可是到國外就大量進來所以說有時候在技術上比較困難鎖定\n781159\t808699\t另外一點就是說就算我們有懷疑還是需要有法規的依據去進去查驗所以我想在這裡面我講的技術上還是有點挑戰那在實行上的確需要跟各部會合作你說技術上其實目前還是需要有挑戰就是剛剛講就是說第一個就是說它的流量因為現在正好很多有方法嗎我們有找到一些方法嗎或者是我們可以複製國外他們怎麼樣來\n809929\t832158\t因為他們現在都是用VPN連到國外去說真正的犯罪的server是在國外所以大量的流量是從國外進來這個都不見得是從公寓裡面出去的所以這個是當然我們可以跟ISP業者或者ISP業者合作看看能不能把這種流量把它找出來不過\n833741\t857421\t是有機會可以去解決不過這目前還是有些挑戰就是好 這些挑戰我們什麼時候可以盡快的我們再回去研究一下但是我就覺得這個會有挑戰這委員的想法很好但是我想這個我們再回去再去分析也跟委員報告剛剛委員提到的這個流量部分其實在原來我們警方在處理這個\n859442\t886876\t攔截違反著作權的信號OTTV那一塊已經處理過炸團也有這種情況但是炸團他本身進一步的把流量分散所以現在比較不容易處理但是這個機制警方其實一直持續有在掌握有跟電信公司在掌握當中我想打炸這個工作其實真的是從上到下我們每一個人其實都要特別去\n887512\t906783\t去關注最後其實我還想要再強調一點我想許多的受害者應該是說被詐騙的這些受害者他們其實都是社會支持系統比較薄弱的一些族群比方說像老人家我想這個部分其實他們失去了畢生的積蓄之後可能\n907703\t929900\t苦於不敢開口那也不敢去報警然後他們礙於顏面的關係但最後其實我們看到有許多就因此走上絕路那我想這些數字上遠遠高於資料的一個顯示那納入公共衛生或者是在我們的社福的部分來填補這些社會的安全網的一個裂縫也是我們當務之急這個部分就是\n943689\t944490\t好 謝謝各位請回答資訊\n","txt":"謝謝主席 有請院長麻煩請卓院長備詢部委員好\n我想從最近大家一直在關心所謂的這個詐騙的這樣子的一個議題風源一家五口的一個悲劇我想這個不是只有台灣其實詐騙這樣子的一個全世界都在關注的議題其實在歐美也是一樣的\n那根據統計27%的受害者他們在接觸詐騙的同時其實在第一個小時內受騙的人其實也非常非常之多那另外呢關於投資以及交友詐騙這個長時期的被養套殺就是取得所謂的被害人的一個信任\n那到巨額的一個金錢被騙那我想這一年平均下來整個所有的犯罪所得是高達將近這個還是2022年的統計高達700億以上那我想這一連串我們看到詐騙的一個問題都是長時間大家普遍關注的一個議題\n那當然去年我們的行政院跟立法院其實也合作通過了這個新打炸四法那我們從這個內容當中可以看到從市炸、堵炸、防炸跟阻炸以及我們的城炸這五個部分的面向\n當然我們也看到最近其實我們也有很多就是破貨的一些案件當然也交出了一些成績單但我想做的永遠不夠根據今年的7月光是打炸儀表板當中數據顯示我就以一個地區來做這樣子的一個例子說明包含台中\n光是詐騙集團被破獲的數量是高居全國第一那另外呢他的這個詐騙集團被破獲的高達有50團432個人落網那受理的這個詐騙的案件呢也是高居第二那整個整個所有的這個詐騙的案件數是高達2245件\n那造成的財損光是7月份就已經高達了有11億多那我不曉得為什麼很多的詐騙集團是選擇在中部那也有許多的這個查獲的數量其實在台中也是最多的但並沒有因為被查獲的數量增多\n而下降他所被詐騙的這樣子的一個金額跟財損這個是兩相矛盾的一個現象我們有沒有分析過這個背後的原因大概會是什麼\n委員我先報告一下您提到說台中市最多那其實有我們警政署的資料大概六都裡面第一個人口多第二個交通便利還有就是說他在包括網路或者是其他的通訊都非常的好而且因為他在大樓裡面或是在園區裡面\n隱密性反而高你在偏鄉來得好所以被查獲到的次數就是您看到的統計資料就比較多我想這個是我們警政署的同仁在統計的時候所得到的一個統計的結果所以我想我們也會特別留意在都會地區如何可以把這個打詐可以把這個詐騙集團可以來處理的一個最重要的一個關鍵部長也點出了我等一下要接下來要詢問的\n這個是媒體的報導我想已經不止一次的報導包含台中的七級高級商辦因為它的管制嚴格但反而成為博弈炸團的工作基地這個其實也是都經過媒體多次的報導連同這樣子的報導當中其實我們可以看到\n這些所謂的這個高級商辦豪宅地區那原本他的管制其實就是嚴格但是也很容易淪為所謂的詐騙集團他們的工作基地那就如同剛剛部長所說的因為隱秘性高但是呢就是他的所有人就是房屋的所有人他不管是短期租賃也好或者是他自己持有也好\n其實在短期租賃容易讓他們比方說他們可以用比較高於行情的一些租金可能月付押金的一個方式他就可以租下這個豪宅那因為豪宅跟豪宅之間鄰居啊其實他們的互動時間相對的是減少的對\n所以其實他們的管理可能就產生了這樣子的一個漏洞那在這樣子的一個漏洞當他們聽到一些風吹草動的時候他們是即刻就可以逃離現場這個也讓我們的警方其實也是長期來是難以追查這是原因之一第二個我剛剛講因為詐騙集團他們通常有時候不是只有用短期租賃他們是直接買下合法的掩護\n或者所謂的直接買下合法掩護因為他把它當成一個長期作案的一個基地那基於他的產權其實是合法的那相對來講他的管委會或者他的保全其實並沒有明確的被法律授權去進行所謂的通報相對的來講也保護這些所謂的詐騙集團的總部的一個安全\n這個也變成是我們在看到像七夕這樣所謂的高風險的一個社區租賃或者是購置的一個行為我們針對這個部分有沒有一套可以更加有效而且管理的一個機制來彌補這樣子的一個漏洞\n報告委我們了解這樣的狀況你所提到的非常的正確也就是說有的時候他還會用人頭戶的方式他並不是用真名然後再來就是豪宅跟豪宅或者是房間跟房間之間大家都互不相認識除非說他出入或者是有一些其他的犯罪這樣子的部分這地方的政府警察才會去處理\n所以我們現在中央跟地方的部分就要來協助就是如果發現它有異常也就譬如說它在電腦網路上面突然跳增非常的高或是用電量非常高的話我們會用這樣的方式來查找有可能潛在的加害的這個集團那這個都要長時間的監控才有可能達到這樣的目的\n所以現在這些長時間的監控已經開始在做手進行其實我們都會有留意但是最最最佳的方式還是說會透過譬如說有人來檢舉那我們會更快因為如果詐騙集團假設他們都是比較年輕的或是說看起來很像是犯罪幫派\n這樣的話警方才會特別留意但是如果他打扮得很時髦很登對或者看不出來的話人家以為他就是豪宅裡面的住戶所以還是要透過檢舉的方式比較好那如果說郭委員有這方面的資訊的話您給我們馬上就來處理\n我想這個七期的模式應該絕非是個案那我們也擔心其實因為豪宅也不是只有台中有其實各地都有豪宅但是類似像這樣子的一個所謂的這個犯罪的模式我們也擔心它其實已經會變成是全台灣各地的豪宅型或複合型的這些所謂的社區它會形成一個巨大的一個社區防線的破口\n我想這樣子的一個模式有可能會複製到全台灣各地那我想很多的豪宅其實他們追求所謂的這個高隱私就我剛剛講的鄰居其實不互相往來那就會變成零監督的一個環境再加上有時候是租期短\n豬集團就更難掌握他到底是第幾手的轉租所以這個人的流動讓很多的成豬人的動態其實根本沒有人知道所以其實這個也是我們非常擔心的一個部分那另外就是\n就是在詐騙集團就是利用這些所謂的這些漏洞那北中南各地他們在用所謂的VPN或者是多跳節點這些所謂的科技的一個手段就會讓我們的警方其實更難掌握那這也是我們真的一直不斷的我們在想這個上有政策正在下有對策其實他們也不斷的在翻新他們所謂的這個詐騙的一些手法啦\n那我們很擔心這不是一個單一的個案而是全台灣目前持續在擴散當中的一個狀況那我想如果再加上這個屋主他自己本身就是詐騙集團的成員如果他又是詐騙集團成員利用自家的豪宅來進行所謂的犯罪其實管委會跟物業管理我們應該要怎麼樣來從外圍來做控管這個我們有想過嗎\n是 我想我們可以從不一定是警政系統啦譬如說民政系統或者是大樓管委會就是如果有出入人口複雜或者是很奇怪這整個月都沒有人進出可是用電量又非常的高然後每天都叫便當這表示說他們可能在裡面從事的是詐騙的行為那這個還是一樣如果管委會不願意提供給我們這個資訊因為管委會他是要保護用戶\n他自己本身的一個隱秘性他如果沒辦法提供我們這些資訊的話會比較難一點但是我們還會從其他的管道來試看看好像譬如說今天早上有多位委員有提到有一位在抖音上面在炫耀說他賺了300萬然後他只要賠7000多塊然後就可以不被收押禁建\n事實上我們也在提供資訊的時候我們的刑事警察非常的認真院長有交代其實我們在8月9號的時候已經通報抖音把這個影片要下架而且我們在8月13號中午的時候已經將這位姓廖的疑似嫌疑犯查緝盜案函請雲林地檢署來偵辦\n是就是說警方如果有任何這方面的資訊提供給我們的話我們會很快不管是從網路或是其他實體實體的這個查緝到案的部分呢動作都會非常的快好那接下來我想要請問的就是所謂的這個跨部會的治安協作的部分了我想這個不是單一只有這個警政署或者是我們的內政部那還包含\n移民署或者是甚至我們的這個抒發部的部分那我想這個跨部會的一個協作那不管是我們的這個公寓大廈管理條例當中我們是不是也要做有一些灰色地帶的一個修正來防堵這一類的所謂的這個詐騙的這個事件那另外還有包含就是我們這個對外籍人士的車手他們短期來台的動態其實掌握不足這個其實也會成為這個詐騙當中的另外一個我們\n其實可以去關注的一個地方那另外呢就是所謂的這個高隱密性的所謂的機房的這個網路流量的分析其實這也是警政署這個地方或者書發部這個部分我們可能也要是要加強喔那我想呢在我們的這個詐騙集團其實他比較常利用剛剛我們講到的是豪宅去收受所謂的這個大筆的現金讓金流的部分其實掌握其實是\n有時候它的金流是掌握的是更加的一個困難那我在這裡我想請教一下這個關於金管會的部分那金管會是不是我們請金管會那金管會是不是能夠將這個豪宅當中異常的現金流納入洗錢防治法的一個監控網那這個部分我們有這樣子的一個措施怎麼樣來盯這一類的漏洞\n世保委員 如果它這個豪宅是有涉及到貸款那我們當然是完全能夠掌握到這個金流如果它大額資金的流動本來就在我們洗錢房子的納管範圍之內\n那另外再是科技的部分我想就是我剛剛提到這個豪宅內當中的這些機房其實它要去偵查的難度其實是比較高的那犯罪集團它常常會利用所謂的這個VPN這個多跳節點的一個隱密的一個網路的一個流量那書發部在這個部分有沒有透過類似的科技上的一個手段能夠協助發現及早發現類似這樣子一個高密隱密性的一個機房\n報告委員 這個的確是個問題那偵測的方式剛剛講就從流量或者是甚至於可以偵測就是網路流量還有用電量那甚至還有人說可以用電磁波去偵測\n這個我們都有在持續關注但不過現在最大問題是第一個就是說尤其是他們當連上VPN到國外以後他們常常是真正發送那些大量的訊息或者這種詐騙的訊息是從國外發送回來所以國內出去的流量不大可是到國外就大量進來所以說有時候在技術上比較困難鎖定\n另外一點就是說就算我們有懷疑還是需要有法規的依據去進去查驗所以我想在這裡面我講的技術上還是有點挑戰那在實行上的確需要跟各部會合作你說技術上其實目前還是需要有挑戰就是剛剛講就是說第一個就是說它的流量因為現在正好很多有方法嗎我們有找到一些方法嗎或者是我們可以複製國外他們怎麼樣來\n因為他們現在都是用VPN連到國外去說真正的犯罪的server是在國外所以大量的流量是從國外進來這個都不見得是從公寓裡面出去的所以這個是當然我們可以跟ISP業者或者ISP業者合作看看能不能把這種流量把它找出來不過\n是有機會可以去解決不過這目前還是有些挑戰就是好 這些挑戰我們什麼時候可以盡快的我們再回去研究一下但是我就覺得這個會有挑戰這委員的想法很好但是我想這個我們再回去再去分析也跟委員報告剛剛委員提到的這個流量部分其實在原來我們警方在處理這個\n攔截違反著作權的信號OTTV那一塊已經處理過炸團也有這種情況但是炸團他本身進一步的把流量分散所以現在比較不容易處理但是這個機制警方其實一直持續有在掌握有跟電信公司在掌握當中我想打炸這個工作其實真的是從上到下我們每一個人其實都要特別去\n去關注最後其實我還想要再強調一點我想許多的受害者應該是說被詐騙的這些受害者他們其實都是社會支持系統比較薄弱的一些族群比方說像老人家我想這個部分其實他們失去了畢生的積蓄之後可能\n苦於不敢開口那也不敢去報警然後他們礙於顏面的關係但最後其實我們看到有許多就因此走上絕路那我想這些數字上遠遠高於資料的一個顯示那納入公共衛生或者是在我們的社福的部分來填補這些社會的安全網的一個裂縫也是我們當務之急這個部分就是\n好 謝謝各位請回答資訊\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.647 --> 00:14.110\n謝謝主席有請院長麻煩請卓院長備詢部委員好\n\n00:28.193 --> 00:44.700\n我想從最近大家一直在關心所謂的這個詐騙的這樣子的一個議題風源一家五口的一個悲劇我想這個不是只有台灣其實詐騙這樣子的一個全世界都在關注的議題其實在歐美也是一樣的\n\n00:45.700 --> 01:03.997\n那根據統計27%的受害者他們在接觸詐騙的同時其實在第一個小時內受騙的人其實也非常非常之多那另外呢關於投資以及交友詐騙這個長時期的被養套殺就是取得所謂的被害人的一個信任\n\n01:04.577 --> 01:23.596\n那到巨額的一個金錢被騙那我想這一年平均下來整個所有的犯罪所得是高達將近這個還是2022年的統計高達700億以上那我想這一連串我們看到詐騙的一個問題都是長時間大家普遍關注的一個議題\n\n01:24.637 --> 01:39.674\n那當然去年我們的行政院跟立法院其實也合作通過了這個新打炸四法那我們從這個內容當中可以看到從市炸、堵炸、防炸跟阻炸以及我們的城炸這五個部分的面向\n\n01:40.794 --> 01:59.740\n當然我們也看到最近其實我們也有很多就是破貨的一些案件當然也交出了一些成績單但我想做的永遠不夠根據今年的7月光是打炸儀表板當中數據顯示我就以一個地區來做這樣子的一個例子說明包含台中\n\n02:00.800 --> 02:22.321\n光是詐騙集團被破獲的數量是高居全國第一那另外呢他的這個詐騙集團被破獲的高達有50團432個人落網那受理的這個詐騙的案件呢也是高居第二那整個整個所有的這個詐騙的案件數是高達2245件\n\n02:24.663 --> 02:45.763\n那造成的財損光是7月份就已經高達了有11億多那我不曉得為什麼很多的詐騙集團是選擇在中部那也有許多的這個查獲的數量其實在台中也是最多的但並沒有因為被查獲的數量增多\n\n02:46.539 --> 02:58.272\n而下降他所被詐騙的這樣子的一個金額跟財損這個是兩相矛盾的一個現象我們有沒有分析過這個背後的原因大概會是什麼\n\n03:00.888 --> 03:17.833\n委員我先報告一下您提到說台中市最多那其實有我們警政署的資料大概六都裡面第一個人口多第二個交通便利還有就是說他在包括網路或者是其他的通訊都非常的好而且因為他在大樓裡面或是在園區裡面\n\n03:19.153 --> 03:44.614\n隱密性反而高你在偏鄉來得好所以被查獲到的次數就是您看到的統計資料就比較多我想這個是我們警政署的同仁在統計的時候所得到的一個統計的結果所以我想我們也會特別留意在都會地區如何可以把這個打詐可以把這個詐騙集團可以來處理的一個最重要的一個關鍵部長也點出了我等一下要接下來要詢問的\n\n03:45.871 --> 04:07.525\n這個是媒體的報導我想已經不止一次的報導包含台中的七級高級商辦因為它的管制嚴格但反而成為博弈炸團的工作基地這個其實也是都經過媒體多次的報導連同這樣子的報導當中其實我們可以看到\n\n04:08.005 --> 04:30.332\n這些所謂的這個高級商辦豪宅地區那原本他的管制其實就是嚴格但是也很容易淪為所謂的詐騙集團他們的工作基地那就如同剛剛部長所說的因為隱秘性高但是呢就是他的所有人就是房屋的所有人他不管是短期租賃也好或者是他自己持有也好\n\n04:31.141 --> 04:47.190\n其實在短期租賃容易讓他們比方說他們可以用比較高於行情的一些租金可能月付押金的一個方式他就可以租下這個豪宅那因為豪宅跟豪宅之間鄰居啊其實他們的互動時間相對的是減少的對\n\n04:48.090 --> 05:12.775\n所以其實他們的管理可能就產生了這樣子的一個漏洞那在這樣子的一個漏洞當他們聽到一些風吹草動的時候他們是即刻就可以逃離現場這個也讓我們的警方其實也是長期來是難以追查這是原因之一第二個我剛剛講因為詐騙集團他們通常有時候不是只有用短期租賃他們是直接買下合法的掩護\n\n05:13.675 --> 05:32.756\n或者所謂的直接買下合法掩護因為他把它當成一個長期作案的一個基地那基於他的產權其實是合法的那相對來講他的管委會或者他的保全其實並沒有明確的被法律授權去進行所謂的通報相對的來講也保護這些所謂的詐騙集團的總部的一個安全\n\n05:33.457 --> 05:49.208\n這個也變成是我們在看到像七夕這樣所謂的高風險的一個社區租賃或者是購置的一個行為我們針對這個部分有沒有一套可以更加有效而且管理的一個機制來彌補這樣子的一個漏洞\n\n05:49.841 --> 06:09.690\n報告委我們了解這樣的狀況你所提到的非常的正確也就是說有的時候他還會用人頭戶的方式他並不是用真名然後再來就是豪宅跟豪宅或者是房間跟房間之間大家都互不相認識除非說他出入或者是有一些其他的犯罪這樣子的部分這地方的政府警察才會去處理\n\n06:10.370 --> 06:29.515\n所以我們現在中央跟地方的部分就要來協助就是如果發現它有異常也就譬如說它在電腦網路上面突然跳增非常的高或是用電量非常高的話我們會用這樣的方式來查找有可能潛在的加害的這個集團那這個都要長時間的監控才有可能達到這樣的目的\n\n06:29.955 --> 06:47.330\n所以現在這些長時間的監控已經開始在做手進行其實我們都會有留意但是最最最佳的方式還是說會透過譬如說有人來檢舉那我們會更快因為如果詐騙集團假設他們都是比較年輕的或是說看起來很像是犯罪幫派\n\n06:48.530 --> 07:03.939\n這樣的話警方才會特別留意但是如果他打扮得很時髦很登對或者看不出來的話人家以為他就是豪宅裡面的住戶所以還是要透過檢舉的方式比較好那如果說郭委員有這方面的資訊的話您給我們馬上就來處理\n\n07:04.879 --> 07:26.289\n我想這個七期的模式應該絕非是個案那我們也擔心其實因為豪宅也不是只有台中有其實各地都有豪宅但是類似像這樣子的一個所謂的這個犯罪的模式我們也擔心它其實已經會變成是全台灣各地的豪宅型或複合型的這些所謂的社區它會形成一個巨大的一個社區防線的破口\n\n07:27.410 --> 07:42.430\n我想這樣子的一個模式有可能會複製到全台灣各地那我想很多的豪宅其實他們追求所謂的這個高隱私就我剛剛講的鄰居其實不互相往來那就會變成零監督的一個環境再加上有時候是租期短\n\n07:43.451 --> 07:58.128\n豬集團就更難掌握他到底是第幾手的轉租所以這個人的流動讓很多的成豬人的動態其實根本沒有人知道所以其實這個也是我們非常擔心的一個部分那另外就是\n\n07:58.148 --> 08:20.809\n就是在詐騙集團就是利用這些所謂的這些漏洞那北中南各地他們在用所謂的VPN或者是多跳節點這些所謂的科技的一個手段就會讓我們的警方其實更難掌握那這也是我們真的一直不斷的我們在想這個上有政策正在下有對策其實他們也不斷的在翻新他們所謂的這個詐騙的一些手法啦\n\n08:21.149 --> 08:47.841\n那我們很擔心這不是一個單一的個案而是全台灣目前持續在擴散當中的一個狀況那我想如果再加上這個屋主他自己本身就是詐騙集團的成員如果他又是詐騙集團成員利用自家的豪宅來進行所謂的犯罪其實管委會跟物業管理我們應該要怎麼樣來從外圍來做控管這個我們有想過嗎\n\n08:48.601 --> 09:11.898\n是我想我們可以從不一定是警政系統啦譬如說民政系統或者是大樓管委會就是如果有出入人口複雜或者是很奇怪這整個月都沒有人進出可是用電量又非常的高然後每天都叫便當這表示說他們可能在裡面從事的是詐騙的行為那這個還是一樣如果管委會不願意提供給我們這個資訊因為管委會他是要保護用戶\n\n09:12.839 --> 09:34.204\n他自己本身的一個隱秘性他如果沒辦法提供我們這些資訊的話會比較難一點但是我們還會從其他的管道來試看看好像譬如說今天早上有多位委員有提到有一位在抖音上面在炫耀說他賺了300萬然後他只要賠7000多塊然後就可以不被收押禁建\n\n09:35.024 --> 09:58.243\n事實上我們也在提供資訊的時候我們的刑事警察非常的認真院長有交代其實我們在8月9號的時候已經通報抖音把這個影片要下架而且我們在8月13號中午的時候已經將這位姓廖的疑似嫌疑犯查緝盜案函請雲林地檢署來偵辦\n\n09:59.204 --> 10:21.853\n是就是說警方如果有任何這方面的資訊提供給我們的話我們會很快不管是從網路或是其他實體實體的這個查緝到案的部分呢動作都會非常的快好那接下來我想要請問的就是所謂的這個跨部會的治安協作的部分了我想這個不是單一只有這個警政署或者是我們的內政部那還包含\n\n10:23.102 --> 10:51.662\n移民署或者是甚至我們的這個抒發部的部分那我想這個跨部會的一個協作那不管是我們的這個公寓大廈管理條例當中我們是不是也要做有一些灰色地帶的一個修正來防堵這一類的所謂的這個詐騙的這個事件那另外還有包含就是我們這個對外籍人士的車手他們短期來台的動態其實掌握不足這個其實也會成為這個詐騙當中的另外一個我們\n\n10:52.322 --> 11:17.572\n其實可以去關注的一個地方那另外呢就是所謂的這個高隱密性的所謂的機房的這個網路流量的分析其實這也是警政署這個地方或者書發部這個部分我們可能也要是要加強喔那我想呢在我們的這個詐騙集團其實他比較常利用剛剛我們講到的是豪宅去收受所謂的這個大筆的現金讓金流的部分其實掌握其實是\n\n11:19.153 --> 11:44.529\n有時候它的金流是掌握的是更加的一個困難那我在這裡我想請教一下這個關於金管會的部分那金管會是不是我們請金管會那金管會是不是能夠將這個豪宅當中異常的現金流納入洗錢防治法的一個監控網那這個部分我們有這樣子的一個措施怎麼樣來盯這一類的漏洞\n\n11:45.009 --> 11:54.926\n世保委員如果它這個豪宅是有涉及到貸款那我們當然是完全能夠掌握到這個金流如果它大額資金的流動本來就在我們洗錢房子的納管範圍之內\n\n11:56.604 --> 12:25.243\n那另外再是科技的部分我想就是我剛剛提到這個豪宅內當中的這些機房其實它要去偵查的難度其實是比較高的那犯罪集團它常常會利用所謂的這個VPN這個多跳節點的一個隱密的一個網路的一個流量那書發部在這個部分有沒有透過類似的科技上的一個手段能夠協助發現及早發現類似這樣子一個高密隱密性的一個機房\n\n12:26.619 --> 12:39.764\n報告委員這個的確是個問題那偵測的方式剛剛講就從流量或者是甚至於可以偵測就是網路流量還有用電量那甚至還有人說可以用電磁波去偵測\n\n12:41.008 --> 13:00.159\n這個我們都有在持續關注但不過現在最大問題是第一個就是說尤其是他們當連上VPN到國外以後他們常常是真正發送那些大量的訊息或者這種詐騙的訊息是從國外發送回來所以國內出去的流量不大可是到國外就大量進來所以說有時候在技術上比較困難鎖定\n\n13:01.159 --> 13:28.699\n另外一點就是說就算我們有懷疑還是需要有法規的依據去進去查驗所以我想在這裡面我講的技術上還是有點挑戰那在實行上的確需要跟各部會合作你說技術上其實目前還是需要有挑戰就是剛剛講就是說第一個就是說它的流量因為現在正好很多有方法嗎我們有找到一些方法嗎或者是我們可以複製國外他們怎麼樣來\n\n13:29.929 --> 13:52.158\n因為他們現在都是用VPN連到國外去說真正的犯罪的server是在國外所以大量的流量是從國外進來這個都不見得是從公寓裡面出去的所以這個是當然我們可以跟ISP業者或者ISP業者合作看看能不能把這種流量把它找出來不過\n\n13:53.741 --> 14:17.421\n是有機會可以去解決不過這目前還是有些挑戰就是好這些挑戰我們什麼時候可以盡快的我們再回去研究一下但是我就覺得這個會有挑戰這委員的想法很好但是我想這個我們再回去再去分析也跟委員報告剛剛委員提到的這個流量部分其實在原來我們警方在處理這個\n\n14:19.442 --> 14:46.876\n攔截違反著作權的信號OTTV那一塊已經處理過炸團也有這種情況但是炸團他本身進一步的把流量分散所以現在比較不容易處理但是這個機制警方其實一直持續有在掌握有跟電信公司在掌握當中我想打炸這個工作其實真的是從上到下我們每一個人其實都要特別去\n\n14:47.512 --> 15:06.783\n去關注最後其實我還想要再強調一點我想許多的受害者應該是說被詐騙的這些受害者他們其實都是社會支持系統比較薄弱的一些族群比方說像老人家我想這個部分其實他們失去了畢生的積蓄之後可能\n\n15:07.703 --> 15:29.900\n苦於不敢開口那也不敢去報警然後他們礙於顏面的關係但最後其實我們看到有許多就因此走上絕路那我想這些數字上遠遠高於資料的一個顯示那納入公共衛生或者是在我們的社福的部分來填補這些社會的安全網的一個裂縫也是我們當務之急這個部分就是\n\n15:43.689 --> 15:44.490\n好謝謝各位請回答資訊\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.647,"end":14.11,"text":"謝謝主席 有請院長麻煩請卓院長備詢部委員好"},{"start":28.193,"end":44.7,"text":"我想從最近大家一直在關心所謂的這個詐騙的這樣子的一個議題風源一家五口的一個悲劇我想這個不是只有台灣其實詐騙這樣子的一個全世界都在關注的議題其實在歐美也是一樣的"},{"start":45.7,"end":63.997,"text":"那根據統計27%的受害者他們在接觸詐騙的同時其實在第一個小時內受騙的人其實也非常非常之多那另外呢關於投資以及交友詐騙這個長時期的被養套殺就是取得所謂的被害人的一個信任"},{"start":64.577,"end":83.596,"text":"那到巨額的一個金錢被騙那我想這一年平均下來整個所有的犯罪所得是高達將近這個還是2022年的統計高達700億以上那我想這一連串我們看到詐騙的一個問題都是長時間大家普遍關注的一個議題"},{"start":84.637,"end":99.674,"text":"那當然去年我們的行政院跟立法院其實也合作通過了這個新打炸四法那我們從這個內容當中可以看到從市炸、堵炸、防炸跟阻炸以及我們的城炸這五個部分的面向"},{"start":100.794,"end":119.74,"text":"當然我們也看到最近其實我們也有很多就是破貨的一些案件當然也交出了一些成績單但我想做的永遠不夠根據今年的7月光是打炸儀表板當中數據顯示我就以一個地區來做這樣子的一個例子說明包含台中"},{"start":120.8,"end":142.321,"text":"光是詐騙集團被破獲的數量是高居全國第一那另外呢他的這個詐騙集團被破獲的高達有50團432個人落網那受理的這個詐騙的案件呢也是高居第二那整個整個所有的這個詐騙的案件數是高達2245件"},{"start":144.663,"end":165.763,"text":"那造成的財損光是7月份就已經高達了有11億多那我不曉得為什麼很多的詐騙集團是選擇在中部那也有許多的這個查獲的數量其實在台中也是最多的但並沒有因為被查獲的數量增多"},{"start":166.539,"end":178.272,"text":"而下降他所被詐騙的這樣子的一個金額跟財損這個是兩相矛盾的一個現象我們有沒有分析過這個背後的原因大概會是什麼"},{"start":180.888,"end":197.833,"text":"委員我先報告一下您提到說台中市最多那其實有我們警政署的資料大概六都裡面第一個人口多第二個交通便利還有就是說他在包括網路或者是其他的通訊都非常的好而且因為他在大樓裡面或是在園區裡面"},{"start":199.153,"end":224.614,"text":"隱密性反而高你在偏鄉來得好所以被查獲到的次數就是您看到的統計資料就比較多我想這個是我們警政署的同仁在統計的時候所得到的一個統計的結果所以我想我們也會特別留意在都會地區如何可以把這個打詐可以把這個詐騙集團可以來處理的一個最重要的一個關鍵部長也點出了我等一下要接下來要詢問的"},{"start":225.871,"end":247.525,"text":"這個是媒體的報導我想已經不止一次的報導包含台中的七級高級商辦因為它的管制嚴格但反而成為博弈炸團的工作基地這個其實也是都經過媒體多次的報導連同這樣子的報導當中其實我們可以看到"},{"start":248.005,"end":270.332,"text":"這些所謂的這個高級商辦豪宅地區那原本他的管制其實就是嚴格但是也很容易淪為所謂的詐騙集團他們的工作基地那就如同剛剛部長所說的因為隱秘性高但是呢就是他的所有人就是房屋的所有人他不管是短期租賃也好或者是他自己持有也好"},{"start":271.141,"end":287.19,"text":"其實在短期租賃容易讓他們比方說他們可以用比較高於行情的一些租金可能月付押金的一個方式他就可以租下這個豪宅那因為豪宅跟豪宅之間鄰居啊其實他們的互動時間相對的是減少的對"},{"start":288.09,"end":312.775,"text":"所以其實他們的管理可能就產生了這樣子的一個漏洞那在這樣子的一個漏洞當他們聽到一些風吹草動的時候他們是即刻就可以逃離現場這個也讓我們的警方其實也是長期來是難以追查這是原因之一第二個我剛剛講因為詐騙集團他們通常有時候不是只有用短期租賃他們是直接買下合法的掩護"},{"start":313.675,"end":332.756,"text":"或者所謂的直接買下合法掩護因為他把它當成一個長期作案的一個基地那基於他的產權其實是合法的那相對來講他的管委會或者他的保全其實並沒有明確的被法律授權去進行所謂的通報相對的來講也保護這些所謂的詐騙集團的總部的一個安全"},{"start":333.457,"end":349.208,"text":"這個也變成是我們在看到像七夕這樣所謂的高風險的一個社區租賃或者是購置的一個行為我們針對這個部分有沒有一套可以更加有效而且管理的一個機制來彌補這樣子的一個漏洞"},{"start":349.841,"end":369.69,"text":"報告委我們了解這樣的狀況你所提到的非常的正確也就是說有的時候他還會用人頭戶的方式他並不是用真名然後再來就是豪宅跟豪宅或者是房間跟房間之間大家都互不相認識除非說他出入或者是有一些其他的犯罪這樣子的部分這地方的政府警察才會去處理"},{"start":370.37,"end":389.515,"text":"所以我們現在中央跟地方的部分就要來協助就是如果發現它有異常也就譬如說它在電腦網路上面突然跳增非常的高或是用電量非常高的話我們會用這樣的方式來查找有可能潛在的加害的這個集團那這個都要長時間的監控才有可能達到這樣的目的"},{"start":389.955,"end":407.33,"text":"所以現在這些長時間的監控已經開始在做手進行其實我們都會有留意但是最最最佳的方式還是說會透過譬如說有人來檢舉那我們會更快因為如果詐騙集團假設他們都是比較年輕的或是說看起來很像是犯罪幫派"},{"start":408.53,"end":423.939,"text":"這樣的話警方才會特別留意但是如果他打扮得很時髦很登對或者看不出來的話人家以為他就是豪宅裡面的住戶所以還是要透過檢舉的方式比較好那如果說郭委員有這方面的資訊的話您給我們馬上就來處理"},{"start":424.879,"end":446.289,"text":"我想這個七期的模式應該絕非是個案那我們也擔心其實因為豪宅也不是只有台中有其實各地都有豪宅但是類似像這樣子的一個所謂的這個犯罪的模式我們也擔心它其實已經會變成是全台灣各地的豪宅型或複合型的這些所謂的社區它會形成一個巨大的一個社區防線的破口"},{"start":447.41,"end":462.43,"text":"我想這樣子的一個模式有可能會複製到全台灣各地那我想很多的豪宅其實他們追求所謂的這個高隱私就我剛剛講的鄰居其實不互相往來那就會變成零監督的一個環境再加上有時候是租期短"},{"start":463.451,"end":478.128,"text":"豬集團就更難掌握他到底是第幾手的轉租所以這個人的流動讓很多的成豬人的動態其實根本沒有人知道所以其實這個也是我們非常擔心的一個部分那另外就是"},{"start":478.148,"end":500.809,"text":"就是在詐騙集團就是利用這些所謂的這些漏洞那北中南各地他們在用所謂的VPN或者是多跳節點這些所謂的科技的一個手段就會讓我們的警方其實更難掌握那這也是我們真的一直不斷的我們在想這個上有政策正在下有對策其實他們也不斷的在翻新他們所謂的這個詐騙的一些手法啦"},{"start":501.149,"end":527.841,"text":"那我們很擔心這不是一個單一的個案而是全台灣目前持續在擴散當中的一個狀況那我想如果再加上這個屋主他自己本身就是詐騙集團的成員如果他又是詐騙集團成員利用自家的豪宅來進行所謂的犯罪其實管委會跟物業管理我們應該要怎麼樣來從外圍來做控管這個我們有想過嗎"},{"start":528.601,"end":551.898,"text":"是 我想我們可以從不一定是警政系統啦譬如說民政系統或者是大樓管委會就是如果有出入人口複雜或者是很奇怪這整個月都沒有人進出可是用電量又非常的高然後每天都叫便當這表示說他們可能在裡面從事的是詐騙的行為那這個還是一樣如果管委會不願意提供給我們這個資訊因為管委會他是要保護用戶"},{"start":552.839,"end":574.204,"text":"他自己本身的一個隱秘性他如果沒辦法提供我們這些資訊的話會比較難一點但是我們還會從其他的管道來試看看好像譬如說今天早上有多位委員有提到有一位在抖音上面在炫耀說他賺了300萬然後他只要賠7000多塊然後就可以不被收押禁建"},{"start":575.024,"end":598.243,"text":"事實上我們也在提供資訊的時候我們的刑事警察非常的認真院長有交代其實我們在8月9號的時候已經通報抖音把這個影片要下架而且我們在8月13號中午的時候已經將這位姓廖的疑似嫌疑犯查緝盜案函請雲林地檢署來偵辦"},{"start":599.204,"end":621.853,"text":"是就是說警方如果有任何這方面的資訊提供給我們的話我們會很快不管是從網路或是其他實體實體的這個查緝到案的部分呢動作都會非常的快好那接下來我想要請問的就是所謂的這個跨部會的治安協作的部分了我想這個不是單一只有這個警政署或者是我們的內政部那還包含"},{"start":623.102,"end":651.662,"text":"移民署或者是甚至我們的這個抒發部的部分那我想這個跨部會的一個協作那不管是我們的這個公寓大廈管理條例當中我們是不是也要做有一些灰色地帶的一個修正來防堵這一類的所謂的這個詐騙的這個事件那另外還有包含就是我們這個對外籍人士的車手他們短期來台的動態其實掌握不足這個其實也會成為這個詐騙當中的另外一個我們"},{"start":652.322,"end":677.572,"text":"其實可以去關注的一個地方那另外呢就是所謂的這個高隱密性的所謂的機房的這個網路流量的分析其實這也是警政署這個地方或者書發部這個部分我們可能也要是要加強喔那我想呢在我們的這個詐騙集團其實他比較常利用剛剛我們講到的是豪宅去收受所謂的這個大筆的現金讓金流的部分其實掌握其實是"},{"start":679.153,"end":704.529,"text":"有時候它的金流是掌握的是更加的一個困難那我在這裡我想請教一下這個關於金管會的部分那金管會是不是我們請金管會那金管會是不是能夠將這個豪宅當中異常的現金流納入洗錢防治法的一個監控網那這個部分我們有這樣子的一個措施怎麼樣來盯這一類的漏洞"},{"start":705.009,"end":714.926,"text":"世保委員 如果它這個豪宅是有涉及到貸款那我們當然是完全能夠掌握到這個金流如果它大額資金的流動本來就在我們洗錢房子的納管範圍之內"},{"start":716.604,"end":745.243,"text":"那另外再是科技的部分我想就是我剛剛提到這個豪宅內當中的這些機房其實它要去偵查的難度其實是比較高的那犯罪集團它常常會利用所謂的這個VPN這個多跳節點的一個隱密的一個網路的一個流量那書發部在這個部分有沒有透過類似的科技上的一個手段能夠協助發現及早發現類似這樣子一個高密隱密性的一個機房"},{"start":746.619,"end":759.764,"text":"報告委員 這個的確是個問題那偵測的方式剛剛講就從流量或者是甚至於可以偵測就是網路流量還有用電量那甚至還有人說可以用電磁波去偵測"},{"start":761.008,"end":780.159,"text":"這個我們都有在持續關注但不過現在最大問題是第一個就是說尤其是他們當連上VPN到國外以後他們常常是真正發送那些大量的訊息或者這種詐騙的訊息是從國外發送回來所以國內出去的流量不大可是到國外就大量進來所以說有時候在技術上比較困難鎖定"},{"start":781.159,"end":808.699,"text":"另外一點就是說就算我們有懷疑還是需要有法規的依據去進去查驗所以我想在這裡面我講的技術上還是有點挑戰那在實行上的確需要跟各部會合作你說技術上其實目前還是需要有挑戰就是剛剛講就是說第一個就是說它的流量因為現在正好很多有方法嗎我們有找到一些方法嗎或者是我們可以複製國外他們怎麼樣來"},{"start":809.929,"end":832.158,"text":"因為他們現在都是用VPN連到國外去說真正的犯罪的server是在國外所以大量的流量是從國外進來這個都不見得是從公寓裡面出去的所以這個是當然我們可以跟ISP業者或者ISP業者合作看看能不能把這種流量把它找出來不過"},{"start":833.741,"end":857.421,"text":"是有機會可以去解決不過這目前還是有些挑戰就是好 這些挑戰我們什麼時候可以盡快的我們再回去研究一下但是我就覺得這個會有挑戰這委員的想法很好但是我想這個我們再回去再去分析也跟委員報告剛剛委員提到的這個流量部分其實在原來我們警方在處理這個"},{"start":859.442,"end":886.876,"text":"攔截違反著作權的信號OTTV那一塊已經處理過炸團也有這種情況但是炸團他本身進一步的把流量分散所以現在比較不容易處理但是這個機制警方其實一直持續有在掌握有跟電信公司在掌握當中我想打炸這個工作其實真的是從上到下我們每一個人其實都要特別去"},{"start":887.512,"end":906.783,"text":"去關注最後其實我還想要再強調一點我想許多的受害者應該是說被詐騙的這些受害者他們其實都是社會支持系統比較薄弱的一些族群比方說像老人家我想這個部分其實他們失去了畢生的積蓄之後可能"},{"start":907.703,"end":929.9,"text":"苦於不敢開口那也不敢去報警然後他們礙於顏面的關係但最後其實我們看到有許多就因此走上絕路那我想這些數字上遠遠高於資料的一個顯示那納入公共衛生或者是在我們的社福的部分來填補這些社會的安全網的一個裂縫也是我們當務之急這個部分就是"},{"start":943.689,"end":944.49,"text":"好 謝謝各位請回答資訊"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（14時30分）謝謝主席，有請院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：郭委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：院長午安。最近大家一直在關心詐騙的議題，關於豐原一家五口的悲劇，我想不是只有臺灣，詐騙是全世界都在關注的議題，其實在歐美也是一樣。根據統計，27%的受害者在接觸詐騙的同時，在第一個小時內受騙的人也非常多；另外，關於投資以及交友詐騙，這是長時期被養套殺，就是取得被害人的信任到巨額的金錢被騙，一年平均下來，這個還是2022年的統計，整個犯罪所得高達700億以上！","這一連串我們看到的詐騙問題都是長時間大家普遍關注的議題，去年行政院跟立法院其實也合作通過了新打詐四法，我們從內容當中可以看到包含識詐、堵詐、防詐、阻詐以及懲詐這5個面向。我們看到最近其實也有破獲一些案件，當然也交出了一些成績單，但我想做的永遠不夠！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：光是根據今年7月打詐儀錶板當中的數據顯示，我就以一個地區來做例子說明，臺中的詐騙集團被破獲數量高居全國第一，被破獲的詐騙集團高達50團、432個人落網；受理的詐騙案件也是高居第二，所有的詐騙案件數高達2,245件；光是7月份造成的財損就已經高達了十一億多。我不曉得為什麼很多詐騙集團選擇在中部，關於查獲的數量，其實在臺中也是最多的，但並沒有因為被查獲的數量增多，而造成被詐騙的金額跟財損下降，這個是兩相矛盾的現象，你們有沒有分析過背後的原因大概會是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：部長說明。"],["劉部長世芳：委員，我先報告一下，您提到臺中市最多，其實依我們警政署的資料，大概在六都裡面，第一個人口多、第二個交通便利，還有包括網路或者是其他通訊都非常好，而且因為在大樓裡面或是園區裡面的隱密性反而高，比在偏鄉來得好，所以被查獲到的次數就如同您看到的統計資料是比較多，這個是我們警政署同仁在統計時所得到的統計結果，所以我們也會特別留意，並把如何在都會地區處理詐騙集團作為最重要的一個關鍵。"],["郭委員昱晴：部長也點出了我接下來要詢問的，這個是媒體的報導，我想已經不只一次的報導，包含臺中的七期高級商辦，因為它的管制嚴格，反而成為博弈詐團的工作基地，其實這也都經過媒體多次的報導。在這樣子的報導當中我們可以看到，這些所謂的高級商辦、豪宅地區原本就管制嚴格，但是也很容易淪為詐騙集團的工作基地，就如同剛剛部長所說的，因為隱密性高，但是房屋的所有人，不管是短期租賃也好或者是他自己持有也好，其實短期租賃容易讓他們……比方說他們可以用高於行情的一些租金，可能以月付押金的方式就可以租下這個豪宅，因為豪宅跟豪宅之間，其實鄰居的互動時間相對是減少的，所以他們的管理可能就產生了漏洞，當他們聽到一些風吹草動的時候，他們就可以即刻逃離現場，這也是讓我們警方長期以來難以追查的原因之一。","第二個，我剛剛講到，因為詐騙集團通常有時候不是只有用短期租賃，他們是直接買下合法的掩護，因為他把它當成一個長期作案的基地，基於它的產權是合法的，相對來講，它的管委會或者它的保全其實並沒有明確的被法律授權去進行通報，相對的來講，也保護了這些詐騙集團總部的安全，這個也變成我們看到像七期這樣高風險社區的租賃或者是購置行為，針對這個部分有沒有一套可以更加有效管理的機制，以彌補這樣子的漏洞？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們了解這樣的狀況，你所提到的非常的正確，有的時候他還會用人頭戶的方式，他並不是用真名，再來是豪宅跟豪宅或者是房間跟房間之間，大家都互相不認識，除非說他出入或者是有一些其他的犯罪行為，這樣地方政府、警察才會去處理，所以現在中央跟地方就要來協助，如果發現它有異常，譬如說它在電腦網路上面突然跳增非常的高，或是用電量非常高的話，我們會用這樣的方式來查找可能潛在的加害集團，這個都要長時間的監控，才有可能達到這樣的目的。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以現在這些長時間的監控已經開始在著手進行了嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：其實我們都會留意，但是最佳的方式還是透過，譬如說有人來檢舉，那我們會更快，假設詐騙集團都是比較年輕的，或是看起來很像是犯罪幫派，這樣警方才會特別留意。但是如果他打扮得很時髦、很登對或者看不出來的話，人家會以為他就是豪宅裡面的住戶，所以還是要透過檢舉的方式會比較好，如果郭委員有這方面的資訊的話，您給我們，我們馬上就來處理。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我想這個七期的模式應該絕非是個案，我們也擔心，因為豪宅也不是只有臺中有，其實各地都有豪宅。"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["郭委員昱晴：但是類似像這樣子的一個犯罪模式，我們也擔心它會讓全臺灣各地豪宅型或複合型的社區，形成一個巨大社區防線的破口，我想這樣子的模式有可能會複製到全臺灣各地，很多豪宅其實追求所謂的高隱私，就我剛剛講的，鄰居其實不互相往來，就會變成零監督的環境，再加上有時候租期短，租期短就更難掌握它到底是第幾手的轉租，所以人的流動，讓很多承租人的動態其實根本沒有人知道，這也是我們非常擔心的部分。","另外，詐騙集團就是利用這些漏洞，他們在北、中、南各地用VPN或者是多跳節點這些科技的手段，就會讓我們的警方更難掌握，這也是我們真的一直不斷的……我們說上有政策，下有對策，其實他們也不斷地在翻新他們的一些詐騙手法，我們很擔心這不是單一個案，而是目前持續在全臺灣擴散當中的狀況，如果再加上這個屋主自己本身就是詐騙集團的成員，如果他又是詐騙集團的成員，利用自家的豪宅來進行犯罪，那管委會跟物業管理應該要怎麼樣從外圍來做控管，這個我們有想過嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們可以從……不一定是警政系統，譬如說民政系統或者是大樓管委會，就是如果有出入人口複雜，或者是很奇怪，這整個月都沒有人進出，可是用電量又非常的高，然後每天都叫便當，這表示他們可能在裡面從事詐騙行為，這個還是一樣，如果管委會不願意提供給我們資訊，因為管委會要保護用戶的隱密性，他如果沒辦法提供我們這些資訊的話，會比較難一點，但是我們還會從其他的管道來試看看，譬如說今天早上有多位委員提到，有一位在抖音上面炫耀說他賺了300萬，但他只要賠七千多塊，就可以不被收押禁見。事實上，在提供資訊的時候，刑事警察非常地認真，院長有交代，其實我們在8月9號的時候已經通報抖音把這個影片下架，而且在8月13號中午的時候已經將這位廖姓的疑似嫌疑犯查緝到案，函請雲林地檢署偵辦。也就是警方如果有任何這方面的資訊提供給我們的話，我們會很快，不管是從網路或是其他實體查緝到案的部分，動作都會非常地快。"],["郭委員昱晴：接下來我想要請問的是關於跨部會的治安協作部分，我想這個不是單一只有警政署或者內政部，還包含移民署或者甚至是數發部，我想跨部會的協作部分，公寓大廈管理條例當中是不是也要做一些灰色地帶的修正？以防堵這一類的詐騙事件。另外，還包含對外籍人士車手短期來臺的動態掌握不足，這個其實也會成為詐騙當中另外一個我們可以去關注的地方。此外，高隱密性機房的網路流量分析，這是警政署或者數發部可能也要加強的。","我想詐騙集團比較常利用剛剛我們講到的豪宅去收受大筆的現金，讓金流的掌握其實有時候是更加困難，我在這裡想請教一下關於金管會的部分，金管會是不是能夠將豪宅當中異常的現金流納入洗錢防制法的監控網？這個部分你們有這樣子的措施來盯這一類的漏洞嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，如果這個豪宅是有涉及到貸款，那我們當然是完全能夠掌握到金流，如果它有大額資金的流動，本來就在洗錢防制的納管範圍之內。"],["郭委員昱晴：另外在科技的部分，就是我剛剛提到的，豪宅當中的這些機房，其實要去偵查的難度是比較高的，犯罪集團常常會利用所謂的VPN多跳節點的隱密網路流量，數發部在這個部分有沒有透過科技上的手段能夠協助及早發現類似這樣子的高隱密性機房？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，這個的確是個問題，但偵測的方式就如剛剛講的，可以偵測網路流量及用電量，甚至還有人說可以用電磁波去偵測，這個我們都有在持續關注，不過現在最大的問題是，當他們連上VPN到國外以後，常常真正發送那些大量訊息或者詐騙訊息是從國外發送回來的，所以國內出去的流量不大，可是到國外就大量進來，因此這有時候在技術上比較困難鎖定。另外，就算我們有懷疑，但還是需要有法規的依據才能進去查驗，所以在這裡面，我想技術上還是有點挑戰，在執行上的確需要跟各部會合作。"],["郭委員昱晴：你說技術上目前還是需要……"],["黃部長彥男：有挑戰，如剛剛講的，就是它的流量，因為現在這種……"],["郭委員昱晴：有方法嗎？你們有找到一些方法嗎？或者可以複製國外怎麼樣來……"],["黃部長彥男：因為他們現在都是用VPN連到國外去，所以真正犯罪的server是在國外，因此大量的流量是從國外進來，都不見得是從公寓裡面出去的，當然我們可以跟ISP業者合作，看看能不能把這種流量找出來，是有機會可以解決，不過目前還是有些挑戰。"],["郭委員昱晴：這些挑戰什麼時候可以儘快完成？"],["黃部長彥男：我們再回去研究一下，但是我覺得這個會有挑戰，委員的想法很好，但我想這個我們再回去分析。"],["卓院長榮泰：請陳主委補充。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，剛剛委員提到的流量部分，其實原來警方在處理攔截違反著作權的訊號，OTT TV那一塊已經處理過，詐團也有這種情況，但是詐團進一步的把流量分散，所以現在比較不容易處理，但其實這個機制警方一直持續有在掌握，有跟電信公司在掌握當中。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我想打詐這個工作其實真的是從上到下，我們每一個人其實都要特別去關注。最後我還想要再強調一點，我想許多的受害者，應該說被詐騙的這些受害者，他們其實都是社會支持系統比較薄弱的一些族群，比方說像老人家，我想他們失去了畢生的積蓄之後，可能苦於不敢開口，也不敢去報警，他們礙於顏面的關係，最後就看到有許多人因此走上絕路，我想這些數字遠遠高於資料的顯示，納入公共衛生或者是在我們的社福來填補社會安全網的裂縫也是我們當務之急，這個部分就是……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會針對不同的族群幫助他們提高警覺、識詐的功能，也會積極尋找潛在的被害者，提前告訴他們不要陷入陷阱，謝謝。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，謝謝院長。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢，謝謝。卓院長喝口水吧，你每次喝完水我才會呼叫下一位。","接下來我們請王鴻薇委員質詢，蔡易餘委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-25","speakers":["韓國瑜","傅崐萁","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","羅智強","劉書彬","王義川","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","張智倫","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","賴士葆","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","黃健豪","陳亭妃","葛如鈞","林楚茵","陳冠廷"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2025-08-15"],"gazette_id":"1147101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147101_00002","1147101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第25次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領2.0執行成效」專案報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147101_00004"}}}