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\"text\": \"跟委員報告這一部分我們是預計在8月底3家的239萬全部都清查完畢之所以會有時間的限制是因為當初有一些茶的量能專線怕影響白天入出境管理局的作業這邊我們也謝謝新市警察局跟入出境管理局移民署跟我們的合作這一塊到8月底都會清查出來\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 730.387, \"end\": 730.707, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 730.707, \"end\": 730.907, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 730.907, \"end\": 731.207, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 731.207, \"end\": 731.287, \"score\": 0.775}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 731.287, \"end\": 731.407, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 731.407, \"end\": 731.567, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 731.567, \"end\": 731.868, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 731.868, \"end\": 732.208, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 732.208, \"end\": 732.588, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 732.588, \"end\": 732.808, 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{\"word\": \"塊\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 753.276, \"end\": 753.576, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 753.576, \"end\": 753.716, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 753.716, \"end\": 753.857, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 753.857, \"end\": 754.097, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 754.097, \"end\": 754.297, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 754.297, \"end\": 754.497, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 754.497, \"end\": 754.517, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"來\"}]}, {\"start\": 755.197, \"end\": 776.117, \"text\": \"那另外委員也關切了說這一塊部分其實到現在為止也已經停花了25.6萬拒絕申辦了14.6萬所以8月底以前這些全部都清查完畢我今天提這個就是希望說我們這件事情就一開始我所講的我們希望整個行政系統應該把這件事情視為第一要務\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 755.197, \"end\": 755.557, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"另\", \"start\": 755.557, \"end\": 755.718, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 755.718, \"end\": 755.898, \"score\": 0.997}, 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924.912, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"黃\"}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 924.912, \"end\": 924.992, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"豪\", \"start\": 924.992, \"end\": 925.032, \"score\": 0.498}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 925.032, \"end\": 925.052, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"訊\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,997 --> 00:00:08,492\n好謝謝韓院長我們現在請行政院的卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n\n2\n00:00:21,309 --> 00:00:37,634\n黃委員好院長好院長我想一整天我想我是僅次於幾位官員聽最久的一個委員謝謝委員從早上到現在非常多大家從各個角度來關心我們這個台灣的詐騙委員一定可以給我更多更好的建議我相信應該可以來\n\n3\n00:00:38,914 --> 00:01:04,151\n一開始我想先放一下新聞當然這個新聞片段的這個標題為什麼要特別提這個我想院長也看過這些新聞但是我跟院長報告這個只是兵山一角為什麼因為我的支持者我的選區裡面也確實有這樣的家庭他沒有上新聞他就是因為被詐騙家裡面受不了這樣的財務壓力他選擇結束自己的生命那這個當然沒有上新聞那他一定會在\n\n4\n00:01:04,833 --> 00:01:22,932\n政府的統計數據裡面它是一個聲明它只是一個數字所以今天院長在這邊我們在這邊質詢在這邊討論詐騙問題我們談了很多數字但是我今天一開始要放這些新聞讓院長知道說我們希望要怎麼樣去解決台灣的詐騙問題最核心的是我們把每一個詐騙案\n\n5\n00:01:24,113 --> 00:01:45,238\n它背後代表的是很多的家庭它代表的可能是每一個人的生計把它放在心裡面去面對這些事情我想我們才有辦法去用同理心去了解受害者的心情因為我想過去在整個司法體系裡面在整個大環境裡面大家認為詐騙好像是小罪是輕罪從它的量刑從它的判決\n\n6\n00:01:46,178 --> 00:02:03,979\n看起來過去是這樣子那當然陸陸續續包含說發生這種詐團去虐求這種詐騙集團騙的金額越來越高有這麼多人選擇這樣的方式解除自己生命所以導致說國人現在非常注重詐騙的這個問題所以我要拜託的是說一開始我們討論這是你的前提是要把詐騙它視為\n\n7\n00:02:05,561 --> 00:02:31,655\n非常嚴重甚至是國安等級的問題來面對這樣子我想院長幫我們行政團隊我們社會各界大家才能夠認真的去考慮這件事情好不好院長沒錯我們現在就把它當作很重要的治安而且可能影響到動搖整個國家經濟跟社會安定的這個層面來看它確實是一個高層次的治安甚至已經進入到一個國安的要求裡面去了\n\n8\n00:02:32,095 --> 00:02:51,884\n我想這個詐騙制動搖國本我們從今年不談去年或前年因為院長你們不斷強調統計數字不一樣那我們就以新的統計方式來看待我想從詐騙的財損來看每個月這麼多錢被騙走平均一天大概兩億到三億我想整個台灣社會有這麼多錢通報被詐騙集團騙走\n\n9\n00:02:52,904 --> 00:03:11,591\n那真正的確實我也沒有否認說大家很辛苦有去查扣有查扣沒錯但是你看查扣的金額跟被詐騙的金額我想不成比例啊詐騙集團現在基本上是等於台灣最賺錢的行業但是我們在追溯在查扣的比例裡面我們真的效果不好啊\n\n10\n00:03:12,071 --> 00:03:27,737\n那效果不好到什麼程度包含說今天所有委員都放了那支影片我本來也想放但是沒關係我節省時間我們看到那個影片那個廖什麼廖先生我問他叫什麼名字他在他的這個社群上面\n\n11\n00:03:28,496 --> 00:03:47,591\n各地都傳這影片那這個廖先生他敢這樣做就表示說他認為詐騙是輕罪對他來講確實他很快就假釋出來了他把這個錢繳一繳他就出來了然後繼續上網去講說啊沒關係想要賺錢的什麼叫做尻的什麼叫做水的這些專業術語\n\n12\n00:03:48,692 --> 00:04:08,449\n我等會都要上網查一下但是對他們來講對這個社群來講好像是一個天生的與生俱來他就知道怎麼做的事情所以比方說這個事情這個詐騙問題已經深入到很多的年輕族群很多不汙真人的人他認為反正不管我是真的去做詐騙我去做什麼做尻的我去做水的\n\n13\n00:04:09,089 --> 00:04:37,101\n我能夠輕輕鬆鬆的騙過這個司法系統我能夠輕輕鬆鬆的走進法院裡面可能連監獄都不用進去因為他可能半年就出來了半年就出來之後裡面還有一些是什麼勞務役他根本連進去都不用進去他根本不受任何影響我們看真正的這個數據我們看那個詐我們看下一頁刑度統計真正的刑度統計你可以看到說有罪人數確實你們在報告裡面提到\n\n14\n00:04:38,052 --> 00:05:03,469\n我們在懲詐的部分今年抓了詐團2025團查獲15912人這個是我們第一線的檢警調非常辛苦的把這些人抓到了那抓到之後院長你看一下這個數據啊我相信法務部也給你看過很多次了這個數據有罪的人每個月每年像一萬多人兩萬人這樣子抓但實際上真的被判三年以上的0.5%0.3%0.4%\n\n15\n00:05:09,124 --> 00:05:21,971\n六個月以下的20%一年以上三年以下的50%那還有拘役的所以我們花了這麼多社會資源這麼多社會成本剪剪掉這麼認真這麼多宣導抓到了\n\n16\n00:05:22,864 --> 00:05:51,821\n但收進法院判決出來即便我們修法了我要講為什麼特別提今年度因為去年通過打詐條例所以我們本來期待的我們第一時間期待就是說為什麼要修打詐條例當初修打詐條例包含修新法339條之四都是因為說過去看到這樣的數據覺得這麼多人犯罪我抓到了我們希望他至少判刑他的這量刑能夠重一點能夠懲戒比較稍微效果但是從去年修完法到今年為止\n\n17\n00:05:52,810 --> 00:06:21,173\n你看這個數據它的比例並沒有明顯的改變欸六個月以下還是佔兩成多一年以上一年以上三年以下的也是要佔五成真的被判到三年以上我們打詐條例希望懲戒的所謂重罪要判到三年以上的一樣只佔百分之零點多而已不佔百分之一喔到底問題出在哪裡到底是我們修法不夠嚴謹還是司法系統判決哪裡出問題還是整個法界我們整個政府機關對於詐騙沒有把他視為重罪才有導致這個結果我們嚴查嚴辦的部分請部長說明\n\n18\n00:06:22,618 --> 00:06:46,004\n這部分這份統計數字的話因為我們那個詐偽條例的提高刑度是在去年一一三年八月才開始實行那案件的偵辦必須要有一定的時間那我相信這些數字應該是屬於判決確定的一個案件這個是在舊法時期就是最多是用那個刑法三三九之四的那個刑度那目前的話我們的確是有我們\n\n19\n00:06:47,064 --> 00:07:07,215\n认为这个技能新法的成立而且这个诈团的期限一定要再压制所以我们有要求检查要具体修行那具体修行我们台高检署也有定一个球形的一个标准给检查做参考那我们要增加那个积压率让这些诈团的这些手模这些以及用握力板的条款\n\n20\n00:07:07,891 --> 00:07:34,928\n來做一個遏止這些詐團的棄業我想這部分的效果會一段時間就會很明顯的看出來那我再跟委員做一個補充剛才委員有說料性攔截側面這個是警方已經移送給Unity監視我想Unity會火速的來處理這個案件來以正視聽因為這一種的話有涉及有可能會涉及到刑法153條的善或他能犯罪\n\n21\n00:07:35,488 --> 00:07:54,571\n犯罪的這一種緩衛秩序罪的這些的問題那我想這個的確是此風不可漲這個真是一個假釋中的一個這個怎麼可以去散貨委員部長這個個案喔那我想這部份這個個案當然要處理啦這個個案當然要處理但是我們今天見為之助嘛今天他敢這樣做\n\n22\n00:07:55,828 --> 00:08:07,118\n他可以光明正大的那是因為剛好他這個影片我不知道為什麼突然在社群上就爆紅了我也是在社群上看到他發現這個人怎麼那麼囂張但我相信這樣子的心態這樣子的\n\n23\n00:08:08,130 --> 00:08:32,953\n這個社群它這樣子的組織它不是唯一一個一定前面很多人做過類似的事情不斷的回溯不斷的再來一遍又一遍包含說前面也有問的我們這種判所謂的詐欺犯罪這些輕罪的人他們的債範率到底多少多少人被抓了被判了半年之後我出來然後我繼續投入同樣的產業繼續再做一樣事情這部分的數據到底我們法務部有沒有掌握\n\n24\n00:08:33,776 --> 00:08:59,990\n這部分我們有委員有需要的話我們可以提供給你們做一個參考那我想這個這個輕判的這個大家社會認為輕判我相信在一個假以時日我想這個整個效果會顯示出來因為我跟委員報告其實以前我們繳證署在監的這些受刑人是以毒品最多現在新收的都已經是詐欺最多了那個毒品的這邊一直降從五成降到四成\n\n25\n00:09:00,751 --> 00:09:22,793\n現在榨漆是一直在增加那個比例所以現在新收人犯新收最多的就是榨漆犯所以我想這個效果我們新法施行之後已經見到它的效果但是我們在等這個時間因為總是要一個審判的期間這樣才會看出它具體的成果這種數字是屬於\n\n26\n00:09:24,034 --> 00:09:39,552\n那個還沒有確定的一個我們希望這個數字能夠盡快呈現因為我提到了去年八月到現在快一年了那當然這個數字案件辦董事要有一定的心法要加快啦這個我是希望說行政的立場也好或是從司法立場也好或從我們多數民的立場\n\n27\n00:09:41,253 --> 00:10:08,060\n這個騙就是事實嘛我錢一直被騙走我每個月這麼多民眾的錢被騙走如果我們把它視為常態的一般像以前這樣我要這樣強調為什麼一開始我要講這個案例就是因為我們過去當然你把它視為說這個是整個國家裡面其中一項事情那當然我們就按照流程來處理但今天我想詐騙的問題是動搖國本動搖民間的資產這個真的是我們常常講以前常常講長富於民啊沒想到民間有這麼多資金可以被騙耶一直被騙耶\n\n28\n00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:23,488\n那這部分當然希望說這些去做詐騙的人就算他是車手車手被視為說是整個詐騙的產業裡面最底層的但是如果沒有這些車手詐騙也沒辦法成因為你每次都講我們也抓不到手謀啊\n\n29\n00:10:26,830 --> 00:10:54,058\n總是要把他手腳砍斷這個跟委員報告我想我們努力現在破獲了今年來就破獲2200多個炸團有我看到報告上面有這個數據不是只有單純一個數據這個炸團整個一個非常大就一個炸團的話就可以壓50幾個人所以我想我們的努力我想如果委員有在注意我們檢警調的這些的懲罰的績效我想你就很有印象\n\n30\n00:10:54,258 --> 00:11:23,213\n好部長謝謝再來談一下方法論的部分當然過去我也非常關注詐騙包含因為這是我自己的支持者親身經歷過所以我再提近代域立法院包含提了電信管理法這個二類電信詐騙我們要處理因為二類電信過去也是很多人透過二類電信這個法律的修正也走了一年才終於在基點終於刪讀那後續現在正在執行那當然執行成效好不好也需要等待時間出來那二類電信接下來還有什麼問題要處理我們的所謂的預付卡\n\n31\n00:11:24,393 --> 00:11:35,264\n傳統名稱移工卡外勞卡這部分兩百多萬一路在外面辦兩百多萬張但說真的我國的所謂不管合法的非法的移工大約就一百萬左右\n\n32\n00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:57,376\n就像你把桃園外島全部抓進去一百萬左右但是我們的卡有兩百多萬張那到底多的卡去哪裡了我們到底現在查到什麼程度在給我的數據裡面目前只有查了一百六十五萬筆那我就很好奇啊電信是有心靈資料的我們如果總外籍人士只有一百萬左右而已我有兩百多萬張卡\n\n33\n00:11:58,783 --> 00:12:09,280\n它不是應該很快可以匹配出來這張卡跟那個人有沒有在一起吧同一個人取下兩張卡有沒有在一起吧這不是應該很好查試為什麼要查了這麼久然後還有這麼多卡查不出來\n\n34\n00:12:10,387 --> 00:12:34,517\n跟委員報告這一部分我們是預計在8月底3家的239萬全部都清查完畢之所以會有時間的限制是因為當初有一些茶的量能專線怕影響白天入出境管理局的作業這邊我們也謝謝新市警察局跟入出境管理局移民署跟我們的合作這一塊到8月底都會清查出來\n\n35\n00:12:35,197 --> 00:12:56,117\n那另外委員也關切了說這一塊部分其實到現在為止也已經停花了25.6萬拒絕申辦了14.6萬所以8月底以前這些全部都清查完畢我今天提這個就是希望說我們這件事情就一開始我所講的我們希望整個行政系統應該把這件事情視為第一要務\n\n36\n00:12:57,881 --> 00:13:20,089\n能夠阻止的不管是電信詐騙也好網絡詐騙也好金融詐騙也好我手上就有了資料就是你們能夠確實掌握到資料至少先把這個先斷掉嘛那其他的他用新的手法來騙用新的手法來鑽漏洞我們才有餘力去追查但是你現在是至少要先把手上能夠擁有的先處理完如果連手上擁有的本來我提到的心靈資料\n\n37\n00:13:21,149 --> 00:13:43,704\n一個人匹配他有兩張卡這兩張卡在不同地方出現他就擺明不同的人在使用這個應該就可以直接禁掉了不需要等那麼多時間對這邊我們最後清查完畢就是他如果已經出境那卡還在國內就要給他停掉另外委員關心的此卡的數量部分我們也已經在納管就是說外國人大概只以一門為原則本國人是兩門\n\n38\n00:13:44,693 --> 00:14:01,520\n那如果说超过两门他要加强的KYC的一些封控也要求业主来做到这一点那我们未来除了在我们KYC指引之外我们现在在政委的打炸的修法里头我们打算修入就是打炸条例14条那边去\n\n39\n00:14:02,110 --> 00:14:16,400\n好主委謝謝喔院長接下來還有一個剛剛你提到說其實我們真的銀行很辛苦第一線警察很辛苦所以我們常去阻詐是用人工去阻詐行員說你不可以轉警察就說你不能轉他就硬要轉然後把他轉出去發現自己被騙了\n\n40\n00:14:17,639 --> 00:14:46,804\n我能參考新加坡啊因為你剛提的沒錯詐騙是全球問題就連法律大家認為最嚴格的新加坡他們詐騙也非常嚴重所以他們今年提了一個法案ProtectionfromScamsBill的一個法案做什麼事情他就是從被害者的角度去出發今天我們是用柔性勸導的我們台灣是用柔性勸導說你不要轉啦那如果堅持要轉他還是能轉嘛新加坡他們的法案我認為是我們國內可以參考的方式他認為有疑慮的他就發出限制令\n\n41\n00:14:48,579 --> 00:15:12,648\n這個帳戶不能把這個錢轉進去大筆的不能轉但是要保留你的生活費你有對詐騙的疑慮警察來介入司法機關來介入把相關的錢保護起來雖然是圈存凍存凍結起來但是你的生活費你要繳學費你要繳房貸你要繳日常的生活費一樣可以繼續支出這樣的方向有沒有可能在我們中華民國政府裡面來試用\n\n42\n00:15:14,397 --> 00:15:25,052\n因為我們到底是一個教育自由高度自由的國家跟社會我想要這樣做以保護被害人的身份是值得考量但是一定要取得社會的共識應該把這個議題讓大家來討論好謝謝黃建豪委員資訊\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4997\t8492\t好 謝謝韓院長 我們現在請行政院的卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n21309\t37634\t黃委員好院長好 院長我想一整天我想我是僅次於幾位官員聽最久的一個委員謝謝委員從早上到現在非常多大家從各個角度來關心我們這個台灣的詐騙委員一定可以給我更多更好的建議我相信應該可以 來\n38914\t64151\t一開始我想先放一下新聞當然這個新聞片段的這個標題為什麼要特別提這個我想院長也看過這些新聞但是我跟院長報告這個只是兵山一角為什麼因為我的支持者我的選區裡面也確實有這樣的家庭他沒有上新聞他就是因為被詐騙家裡面受不了這樣的財務壓力他選擇結束自己的生命那這個當然沒有上新聞那他一定會在\n64833\t82932\t政府的統計數據裡面它是一個聲明它只是一個數字所以今天院長在這邊我們在這邊質詢在這邊討論詐騙問題我們談了很多數字但是我今天一開始要放這些新聞讓院長知道說我們希望要怎麼樣去解決台灣的詐騙問題最核心的是我們把每一個詐騙案\n84113\t105238\t它背後代表的是很多的家庭它代表的可能是每一個人的生計把它放在心裡面去面對這些事情我想我們才有辦法去用同理心去了解受害者的心情因為我想過去在整個司法體系裡面在整個大環境裡面大家認為詐騙好像是小罪 是輕罪從它的量刑 從它的判決\n106178\t123979\t看起來過去是這樣子那當然陸陸續續包含說發生這種詐團去虐求這種詐騙集團騙的金額越來越高有這麼多人選擇這樣的方式解除自己生命所以導致說國人現在非常注重詐騙的這個問題所以我要拜託的是說一開始我們討論這是你的前提是要把詐騙它視為\n125561\t151655\t非常嚴重甚至是國安等級的問題來面對這樣子我想院長幫我們行政團隊我們社會各界大家才能夠認真的去考慮這件事情好不好 院長沒錯 我們現在就把它當作很重要的治安而且可能影響到動搖整個國家經濟跟社會安定的這個層面來看它確實是一個高層次的治安甚至已經進入到一個國安的要求裡面去了\n152095\t171884\t我想這個詐騙制動搖國本我們從今年不談去年或前年因為院長你們不斷強調統計數字不一樣那我們就以新的統計方式來看待我想從詐騙的財損來看每個月這麼多錢被騙走平均一天大概兩億到三億我想整個台灣社會有這麼多錢通報被詐騙集團騙走\n172904\t191591\t那真正的確實我也沒有否認說大家很辛苦有去查扣有查扣沒錯但是你看查扣的金額跟被詐騙的金額我想不成比例啊詐騙集團現在基本上是等於台灣最賺錢的行業但是我們在追溯在查扣的比例裡面我們真的效果不好啊\n192071\t207737\t那效果不好到什麼程度包含說今天所有委員都放了那支影片我本來也想放但是沒關係我節省時間我們看到那個影片那個廖什麼廖先生我問他叫什麼名字他在他的這個社群上面\n208496\t227591\t各地都傳這影片那這個廖先生他敢這樣做就表示說他認為詐騙是輕罪對他來講確實他很快就假釋出來了他把這個錢繳一繳他就出來了然後繼續上網去講說啊沒關係想要賺錢的什麼叫做尻的什麼叫做水的這些專業術語\n228692\t248449\t我等會都要上網查一下但是對他們來講對這個社群來講好像是一個天生的與生俱來他就知道怎麼做的事情所以比方說這個事情這個詐騙問題已經深入到很多的年輕族群很多不汙真人的人他認為反正不管我是真的去做詐騙我去做什麼做尻的我去做水的\n249089\t277101\t我能夠輕輕鬆鬆的騙過這個司法系統我能夠輕輕鬆鬆的走進法院裡面可能連監獄都不用進去因為他可能半年就出來了半年就出來之後裡面還有一些是什麼勞務役他根本連進去都不用進去他根本不受任何影響我們看真正的這個數據我們看那個詐我們看下一頁刑度統計真正的刑度統計你可以看到說有罪人數確實你們在報告裡面提到\n278052\t303469\t我們在懲詐的部分今年抓了詐團2025團查獲15912人這個是我們第一線的檢警調非常辛苦的把這些人抓到了那抓到之後院長你看一下這個數據啊我相信法務部也給你看過很多次了這個數據有罪的人每個月每年像一萬多人兩萬人這樣子抓但實際上真的被判三年以上的0.5%0.3%0.4%\n309124\t321971\t六個月以下的20%一年以上三年以下的50%那還有拘役的所以我們花了這麼多社會資源這麼多社會成本剪剪掉這麼認真這麼多宣導抓到了\n322864\t351821\t但收進法院判決出來即便我們修法了我要講為什麼特別提今年度因為去年通過打詐條例所以我們本來期待的我們第一時間期待就是說為什麼要修打詐條例當初修打詐條例包含修新法339條之四都是因為說過去看到這樣的數據覺得這麼多人犯罪我抓到了我們希望他至少判刑他的這量刑能夠重一點能夠懲戒比較稍微效果但是從去年修完法到今年為止\n352810\t381173\t你看這個數據它的比例並沒有明顯的改變欸六個月以下還是佔兩成多一年以上 一年以上 三年以下的也是要佔五成真的被判到三年以上我們打詐條例希望懲戒的所謂重罪要判到三年以上的一樣只佔百分之零點多而已不佔百分之一喔到底問題出在哪裡到底是我們修法不夠嚴謹還是司法系統判決哪裡出問題還是整個法界 我們整個政府機關對於詐騙沒有把他視為重罪才有導致這個結果我們嚴查嚴辦的部分請部長說明\n382618\t406004\t這部分這份統計數字的話因為我們那個詐偽條例的提高刑度是在去年一一三年八月才開始實行那案件的偵辦必須要有一定的時間那我相信這些數字應該是屬於判決確定的一個案件這個是在舊法時期就是最多是用那個刑法三三九之四的那個刑度那目前的話我們的確是有我們\n407064\t427215\t认为这个技能新法的成立而且这个诈团的期限一定要再压制所以我们有要求检查要具体修行那具体修行我们台高检署也有定一个球形的一个标准给检查做参考那我们要增加那个积压率让这些诈团的这些手模这些以及用握力板的条款\n427891\t454928\t來做一個遏止這些詐團的棄業我想這部分的效果會一段時間就會很明顯的看出來那我再跟委員做一個補充剛才委員有說料性攔截側面這個是警方已經移送給Unity監視我想Unity會火速的來處理這個案件來以正視聽因為這一種的話有涉及有可能會涉及到刑法153條的善或他能犯罪\n455488\t474571\t犯罪的這一種 緩衛秩序罪的這些的問題那我想這個的確是此風不可漲這個真是一個假釋中的一個這個怎麼可以去散貨委員部長 這個個案喔那我想這部份這個個案當然要處理啦這個個案當然要處理但是我們今天見為之助嘛今天他敢這樣做\n475828\t487118\t他可以光明正大的那是因為剛好他這個影片我不知道為什麼突然在社群上就爆紅了我也是在社群上看到他發現這個人怎麼那麼囂張但我相信這樣子的心態這樣子的\n488130\t512953\t這個社群它這樣子的組織它不是唯一一個一定前面很多人做過類似的事情不斷的回溯不斷的再來一遍又一遍包含說前面也有問的我們這種判所謂的詐欺犯罪這些輕罪的人他們的債範率到底多少多少人被抓了被判了半年之後我出來然後我繼續投入同樣的產業繼續再做一樣事情這部分的數據到底我們法務部有沒有掌握\n513776\t539990\t這部分我們有委員有需要的話我們可以提供給你們做一個參考那我想這個這個輕判的這個大家社會認為輕判我相信在一個假以時日我想這個整個效果會顯示出來因為我跟委員報告其實以前我們繳證署在監的這些受刑人是以毒品最多現在新收的都已經是詐欺最多了那個毒品的這邊一直降從五成降到四成\n540751\t562793\t現在榨漆是一直在增加那個比例所以現在新收人犯新收最多的就是榨漆犯所以我想這個效果我們新法施行之後已經見到它的效果但是我們在等這個時間因為總是要一個審判的期間這樣才會看出它具體的成果這種數字是屬於\n564034\t579552\t那個還沒有確定的一個我們希望這個數字能夠盡快呈現因為我提到了去年八月到現在快一年了那當然這個數字案件辦董事要有一定的心法要加快啦這個我是希望說行政的立場也好或是從司法立場也好或從我們多數民的立場\n581253\t608060\t這個騙就是事實嘛我錢一直被騙走我每個月這麼多民眾的錢被騙走如果我們把它視為常態的一般像以前這樣我要這樣強調為什麼一開始我要講這個案例就是因為我們過去當然你把它視為說這個是整個國家裡面其中一項事情那當然我們就按照流程來處理但今天我想詐騙的問題是動搖國本動搖民間的資產這個真的是我們常常講以前常常講長富於民啊沒想到民間有這麼多資金可以被騙耶一直被騙耶\n609040\t623488\t那這部分當然希望說這些去做詐騙的人就算他是車手車手被視為說是整個詐騙的產業裡面最底層的但是如果沒有這些車手詐騙也沒辦法成因為你每次都講我們也抓不到手謀啊\n626830\t654058\t總是要把他手腳砍斷這個跟委員報告我想我們努力現在破獲了今年來就破獲2200多個炸團有 我看到報告上面有這個數據不是只有單純一個數據這個炸團整個一個非常大就一個炸團的話就可以壓50幾個人所以我想我們的努力我想如果委員有在注意我們檢警調的這些的懲罰的績效我想你就很有印象\n654258\t683213\t好 部長謝謝再來談一下方法論的部分當然過去我也非常關注詐騙包含因為這是我自己的支持者親身經歷過所以我再提近代域立法院包含提了電信管理法這個二類電信詐騙我們要處理因為二類電信過去也是很多人透過二類電信這個法律的修正也走了一年才終於在基點終於刪讀那後續現在正在執行那當然執行成效好不好也需要等待時間出來那二類電信接下來還有什麼問題要處理我們的所謂的預付卡\n684393\t695264\t傳統名稱移工卡 外勞卡這部分兩百多萬一路在外面 辦兩百多萬張但說真的 我國的所謂不管合法的 非法的移工大約就一百萬左右\n696240\t717376\t就像你把桃園外島全部抓進去一百萬左右但是我們的卡有兩百多萬張那到底多的卡去哪裡了我們到底現在查到什麼程度在給我的數據裡面目前只有查了一百六十五萬筆那我就很好奇啊電信是有心靈資料的我們如果總外籍人士只有一百萬左右而已我有兩百多萬張卡\n718783\t729280\t它不是應該很快可以匹配出來這張卡跟那個人有沒有在一起吧同一個人取下兩張卡有沒有在一起吧這不是應該很好查試為什麼要查了這麼久然後還有這麼多卡查不出來\n730387\t754517\t跟委員報告這一部分我們是預計在8月底3家的239萬全部都清查完畢之所以會有時間的限制是因為當初有一些茶的量能專線怕影響白天入出境管理局的作業這邊我們也謝謝新市警察局跟入出境管理局移民署跟我們的合作這一塊到8月底都會清查出來\n755197\t776117\t那另外委員也關切了說這一塊部分其實到現在為止也已經停花了25.6萬拒絕申辦了14.6萬所以8月底以前這些全部都清查完畢我今天提這個就是希望說我們這件事情就一開始我所講的我們希望整個行政系統應該把這件事情視為第一要務\n777881\t800089\t能夠阻止的不管是電信詐騙也好網絡詐騙也好金融詐騙也好我手上就有了資料就是你們能夠確實掌握到資料至少先把這個先斷掉嘛那其他的他用新的手法來騙用新的手法來鑽漏洞我們才有餘力去追查但是你現在是至少要先把手上能夠擁有的先處理完如果連手上擁有的本來我提到的心靈資料\n801149\t823704\t一個人匹配他有兩張卡這兩張卡在不同地方出現他就擺明不同的人在使用這個應該就可以直接禁掉了不需要等那麼多時間對 這邊我們最後清查完畢就是他如果已經出境那卡還在國內就要給他停掉另外委員關心的此卡的數量部分我們也已經在納管就是說外國人大概只以一門為原則本國人是兩門\n824693\t841520\t那如果说超过两门他要加强的KYC的一些封控也要求业主来做到这一点那我们未来除了在我们KYC指引之外我们现在在政委的打炸的修法里头我们打算修入就是打炸条例14条那边去\n842110\t856400\t好主委謝謝喔院長接下來還有一個剛剛你提到說其實我們真的銀行很辛苦第一線警察很辛苦所以我們常去阻詐是用人工去阻詐行員說你不可以轉警察就說你不能轉他就硬要轉然後把他轉出去發現自己被騙了\n857639\t886804\t我能參考新加坡啊因為你剛提的沒錯詐騙是全球問題就連法律大家認為最嚴格的新加坡他們詐騙也非常嚴重所以他們今年提了一個法案Protection from Scams Bill的一個法案做什麼事情他就是從被害者的角度去出發今天我們是用柔性勸導的我們台灣是用柔性勸導說你不要轉啦那如果堅持要轉他還是能轉嘛新加坡他們的法案我認為是我們國內可以參考的方式他認為有疑慮的他就發出限制令\n888579\t912648\t這個帳戶不能把這個錢轉進去大筆的不能轉但是要保留你的生活費你有對詐騙的疑慮警察來介入 司法機關來介入把相關的錢保護起來雖然是圈存 凍存 凍結起來但是你的生活費你要繳學費你要繳房貸 你要繳日常的生活費一樣可以繼續支出這樣的方向有沒有可能在我們中華民國政府裡面來試用\n914397\t925052\t因為我們到底是一個教育自由高度自由的國家跟社會我想要這樣做以保護被害人的身份是值得考量但是一定要取得社會的共識應該把這個議題讓大家來討論好謝謝黃建豪委員資訊\n","txt":"好 謝謝韓院長 我們現在請行政院的卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n黃委員好院長好 院長我想一整天我想我是僅次於幾位官員聽最久的一個委員謝謝委員從早上到現在非常多大家從各個角度來關心我們這個台灣的詐騙委員一定可以給我更多更好的建議我相信應該可以 來\n一開始我想先放一下新聞當然這個新聞片段的這個標題為什麼要特別提這個我想院長也看過這些新聞但是我跟院長報告這個只是兵山一角為什麼因為我的支持者我的選區裡面也確實有這樣的家庭他沒有上新聞他就是因為被詐騙家裡面受不了這樣的財務壓力他選擇結束自己的生命那這個當然沒有上新聞那他一定會在\n政府的統計數據裡面它是一個聲明它只是一個數字所以今天院長在這邊我們在這邊質詢在這邊討論詐騙問題我們談了很多數字但是我今天一開始要放這些新聞讓院長知道說我們希望要怎麼樣去解決台灣的詐騙問題最核心的是我們把每一個詐騙案\n它背後代表的是很多的家庭它代表的可能是每一個人的生計把它放在心裡面去面對這些事情我想我們才有辦法去用同理心去了解受害者的心情因為我想過去在整個司法體系裡面在整個大環境裡面大家認為詐騙好像是小罪 是輕罪從它的量刑 從它的判決\n看起來過去是這樣子那當然陸陸續續包含說發生這種詐團去虐求這種詐騙集團騙的金額越來越高有這麼多人選擇這樣的方式解除自己生命所以導致說國人現在非常注重詐騙的這個問題所以我要拜託的是說一開始我們討論這是你的前提是要把詐騙它視為\n非常嚴重甚至是國安等級的問題來面對這樣子我想院長幫我們行政團隊我們社會各界大家才能夠認真的去考慮這件事情好不好 院長沒錯 我們現在就把它當作很重要的治安而且可能影響到動搖整個國家經濟跟社會安定的這個層面來看它確實是一個高層次的治安甚至已經進入到一個國安的要求裡面去了\n我想這個詐騙制動搖國本我們從今年不談去年或前年因為院長你們不斷強調統計數字不一樣那我們就以新的統計方式來看待我想從詐騙的財損來看每個月這麼多錢被騙走平均一天大概兩億到三億我想整個台灣社會有這麼多錢通報被詐騙集團騙走\n那真正的確實我也沒有否認說大家很辛苦有去查扣有查扣沒錯但是你看查扣的金額跟被詐騙的金額我想不成比例啊詐騙集團現在基本上是等於台灣最賺錢的行業但是我們在追溯在查扣的比例裡面我們真的效果不好啊\n那效果不好到什麼程度包含說今天所有委員都放了那支影片我本來也想放但是沒關係我節省時間我們看到那個影片那個廖什麼廖先生我問他叫什麼名字他在他的這個社群上面\n各地都傳這影片那這個廖先生他敢這樣做就表示說他認為詐騙是輕罪對他來講確實他很快就假釋出來了他把這個錢繳一繳他就出來了然後繼續上網去講說啊沒關係想要賺錢的什麼叫做尻的什麼叫做水的這些專業術語\n我等會都要上網查一下但是對他們來講對這個社群來講好像是一個天生的與生俱來他就知道怎麼做的事情所以比方說這個事情這個詐騙問題已經深入到很多的年輕族群很多不汙真人的人他認為反正不管我是真的去做詐騙我去做什麼做尻的我去做水的\n我能夠輕輕鬆鬆的騙過這個司法系統我能夠輕輕鬆鬆的走進法院裡面可能連監獄都不用進去因為他可能半年就出來了半年就出來之後裡面還有一些是什麼勞務役他根本連進去都不用進去他根本不受任何影響我們看真正的這個數據我們看那個詐我們看下一頁刑度統計真正的刑度統計你可以看到說有罪人數確實你們在報告裡面提到\n我們在懲詐的部分今年抓了詐團2025團查獲15912人這個是我們第一線的檢警調非常辛苦的把這些人抓到了那抓到之後院長你看一下這個數據啊我相信法務部也給你看過很多次了這個數據有罪的人每個月每年像一萬多人兩萬人這樣子抓但實際上真的被判三年以上的0.5%0.3%0.4%\n六個月以下的20%一年以上三年以下的50%那還有拘役的所以我們花了這麼多社會資源這麼多社會成本剪剪掉這麼認真這麼多宣導抓到了\n但收進法院判決出來即便我們修法了我要講為什麼特別提今年度因為去年通過打詐條例所以我們本來期待的我們第一時間期待就是說為什麼要修打詐條例當初修打詐條例包含修新法339條之四都是因為說過去看到這樣的數據覺得這麼多人犯罪我抓到了我們希望他至少判刑他的這量刑能夠重一點能夠懲戒比較稍微效果但是從去年修完法到今年為止\n你看這個數據它的比例並沒有明顯的改變欸六個月以下還是佔兩成多一年以上 一年以上 三年以下的也是要佔五成真的被判到三年以上我們打詐條例希望懲戒的所謂重罪要判到三年以上的一樣只佔百分之零點多而已不佔百分之一喔到底問題出在哪裡到底是我們修法不夠嚴謹還是司法系統判決哪裡出問題還是整個法界 我們整個政府機關對於詐騙沒有把他視為重罪才有導致這個結果我們嚴查嚴辦的部分請部長說明\n這部分這份統計數字的話因為我們那個詐偽條例的提高刑度是在去年一一三年八月才開始實行那案件的偵辦必須要有一定的時間那我相信這些數字應該是屬於判決確定的一個案件這個是在舊法時期就是最多是用那個刑法三三九之四的那個刑度那目前的話我們的確是有我們\n认为这个技能新法的成立而且这个诈团的期限一定要再压制所以我们有要求检查要具体修行那具体修行我们台高检署也有定一个球形的一个标准给检查做参考那我们要增加那个积压率让这些诈团的这些手模这些以及用握力板的条款\n來做一個遏止這些詐團的棄業我想這部分的效果會一段時間就會很明顯的看出來那我再跟委員做一個補充剛才委員有說料性攔截側面這個是警方已經移送給Unity監視我想Unity會火速的來處理這個案件來以正視聽因為這一種的話有涉及有可能會涉及到刑法153條的善或他能犯罪\n犯罪的這一種 緩衛秩序罪的這些的問題那我想這個的確是此風不可漲這個真是一個假釋中的一個這個怎麼可以去散貨委員部長 這個個案喔那我想這部份這個個案當然要處理啦這個個案當然要處理但是我們今天見為之助嘛今天他敢這樣做\n他可以光明正大的那是因為剛好他這個影片我不知道為什麼突然在社群上就爆紅了我也是在社群上看到他發現這個人怎麼那麼囂張但我相信這樣子的心態這樣子的\n這個社群它這樣子的組織它不是唯一一個一定前面很多人做過類似的事情不斷的回溯不斷的再來一遍又一遍包含說前面也有問的我們這種判所謂的詐欺犯罪這些輕罪的人他們的債範率到底多少多少人被抓了被判了半年之後我出來然後我繼續投入同樣的產業繼續再做一樣事情這部分的數據到底我們法務部有沒有掌握\n這部分我們有委員有需要的話我們可以提供給你們做一個參考那我想這個這個輕判的這個大家社會認為輕判我相信在一個假以時日我想這個整個效果會顯示出來因為我跟委員報告其實以前我們繳證署在監的這些受刑人是以毒品最多現在新收的都已經是詐欺最多了那個毒品的這邊一直降從五成降到四成\n現在榨漆是一直在增加那個比例所以現在新收人犯新收最多的就是榨漆犯所以我想這個效果我們新法施行之後已經見到它的效果但是我們在等這個時間因為總是要一個審判的期間這樣才會看出它具體的成果這種數字是屬於\n那個還沒有確定的一個我們希望這個數字能夠盡快呈現因為我提到了去年八月到現在快一年了那當然這個數字案件辦董事要有一定的心法要加快啦這個我是希望說行政的立場也好或是從司法立場也好或從我們多數民的立場\n這個騙就是事實嘛我錢一直被騙走我每個月這麼多民眾的錢被騙走如果我們把它視為常態的一般像以前這樣我要這樣強調為什麼一開始我要講這個案例就是因為我們過去當然你把它視為說這個是整個國家裡面其中一項事情那當然我們就按照流程來處理但今天我想詐騙的問題是動搖國本動搖民間的資產這個真的是我們常常講以前常常講長富於民啊沒想到民間有這麼多資金可以被騙耶一直被騙耶\n那這部分當然希望說這些去做詐騙的人就算他是車手車手被視為說是整個詐騙的產業裡面最底層的但是如果沒有這些車手詐騙也沒辦法成因為你每次都講我們也抓不到手謀啊\n總是要把他手腳砍斷這個跟委員報告我想我們努力現在破獲了今年來就破獲2200多個炸團有 我看到報告上面有這個數據不是只有單純一個數據這個炸團整個一個非常大就一個炸團的話就可以壓50幾個人所以我想我們的努力我想如果委員有在注意我們檢警調的這些的懲罰的績效我想你就很有印象\n好 部長謝謝再來談一下方法論的部分當然過去我也非常關注詐騙包含因為這是我自己的支持者親身經歷過所以我再提近代域立法院包含提了電信管理法這個二類電信詐騙我們要處理因為二類電信過去也是很多人透過二類電信這個法律的修正也走了一年才終於在基點終於刪讀那後續現在正在執行那當然執行成效好不好也需要等待時間出來那二類電信接下來還有什麼問題要處理我們的所謂的預付卡\n傳統名稱移工卡 外勞卡這部分兩百多萬一路在外面 辦兩百多萬張但說真的 我國的所謂不管合法的 非法的移工大約就一百萬左右\n就像你把桃園外島全部抓進去一百萬左右但是我們的卡有兩百多萬張那到底多的卡去哪裡了我們到底現在查到什麼程度在給我的數據裡面目前只有查了一百六十五萬筆那我就很好奇啊電信是有心靈資料的我們如果總外籍人士只有一百萬左右而已我有兩百多萬張卡\n它不是應該很快可以匹配出來這張卡跟那個人有沒有在一起吧同一個人取下兩張卡有沒有在一起吧這不是應該很好查試為什麼要查了這麼久然後還有這麼多卡查不出來\n跟委員報告這一部分我們是預計在8月底3家的239萬全部都清查完畢之所以會有時間的限制是因為當初有一些茶的量能專線怕影響白天入出境管理局的作業這邊我們也謝謝新市警察局跟入出境管理局移民署跟我們的合作這一塊到8月底都會清查出來\n那另外委員也關切了說這一塊部分其實到現在為止也已經停花了25.6萬拒絕申辦了14.6萬所以8月底以前這些全部都清查完畢我今天提這個就是希望說我們這件事情就一開始我所講的我們希望整個行政系統應該把這件事情視為第一要務\n能夠阻止的不管是電信詐騙也好網絡詐騙也好金融詐騙也好我手上就有了資料就是你們能夠確實掌握到資料至少先把這個先斷掉嘛那其他的他用新的手法來騙用新的手法來鑽漏洞我們才有餘力去追查但是你現在是至少要先把手上能夠擁有的先處理完如果連手上擁有的本來我提到的心靈資料\n一個人匹配他有兩張卡這兩張卡在不同地方出現他就擺明不同的人在使用這個應該就可以直接禁掉了不需要等那麼多時間對 這邊我們最後清查完畢就是他如果已經出境那卡還在國內就要給他停掉另外委員關心的此卡的數量部分我們也已經在納管就是說外國人大概只以一門為原則本國人是兩門\n那如果说超过两门他要加强的KYC的一些封控也要求业主来做到这一点那我们未来除了在我们KYC指引之外我们现在在政委的打炸的修法里头我们打算修入就是打炸条例14条那边去\n好主委謝謝喔院長接下來還有一個剛剛你提到說其實我們真的銀行很辛苦第一線警察很辛苦所以我們常去阻詐是用人工去阻詐行員說你不可以轉警察就說你不能轉他就硬要轉然後把他轉出去發現自己被騙了\n我能參考新加坡啊因為你剛提的沒錯詐騙是全球問題就連法律大家認為最嚴格的新加坡他們詐騙也非常嚴重所以他們今年提了一個法案Protection from Scams Bill的一個法案做什麼事情他就是從被害者的角度去出發今天我們是用柔性勸導的我們台灣是用柔性勸導說你不要轉啦那如果堅持要轉他還是能轉嘛新加坡他們的法案我認為是我們國內可以參考的方式他認為有疑慮的他就發出限制令\n這個帳戶不能把這個錢轉進去大筆的不能轉但是要保留你的生活費你有對詐騙的疑慮警察來介入 司法機關來介入把相關的錢保護起來雖然是圈存 凍存 凍結起來但是你的生活費你要繳學費你要繳房貸 你要繳日常的生活費一樣可以繼續支出這樣的方向有沒有可能在我們中華民國政府裡面來試用\n因為我們到底是一個教育自由高度自由的國家跟社會我想要這樣做以保護被害人的身份是值得考量但是一定要取得社會的共識應該把這個議題讓大家來討論好謝謝黃建豪委員資訊\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.997 --> 00:08.492\n好謝謝韓院長我們現在請行政院的卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n\n00:21.309 --> 00:37.634\n黃委員好院長好院長我想一整天我想我是僅次於幾位官員聽最久的一個委員謝謝委員從早上到現在非常多大家從各個角度來關心我們這個台灣的詐騙委員一定可以給我更多更好的建議我相信應該可以來\n\n00:38.914 --> 01:04.151\n一開始我想先放一下新聞當然這個新聞片段的這個標題為什麼要特別提這個我想院長也看過這些新聞但是我跟院長報告這個只是兵山一角為什麼因為我的支持者我的選區裡面也確實有這樣的家庭他沒有上新聞他就是因為被詐騙家裡面受不了這樣的財務壓力他選擇結束自己的生命那這個當然沒有上新聞那他一定會在\n\n01:04.833 --> 01:22.932\n政府的統計數據裡面它是一個聲明它只是一個數字所以今天院長在這邊我們在這邊質詢在這邊討論詐騙問題我們談了很多數字但是我今天一開始要放這些新聞讓院長知道說我們希望要怎麼樣去解決台灣的詐騙問題最核心的是我們把每一個詐騙案\n\n01:24.113 --> 01:45.238\n它背後代表的是很多的家庭它代表的可能是每一個人的生計把它放在心裡面去面對這些事情我想我們才有辦法去用同理心去了解受害者的心情因為我想過去在整個司法體系裡面在整個大環境裡面大家認為詐騙好像是小罪是輕罪從它的量刑從它的判決\n\n01:46.178 --> 02:03.979\n看起來過去是這樣子那當然陸陸續續包含說發生這種詐團去虐求這種詐騙集團騙的金額越來越高有這麼多人選擇這樣的方式解除自己生命所以導致說國人現在非常注重詐騙的這個問題所以我要拜託的是說一開始我們討論這是你的前提是要把詐騙它視為\n\n02:05.561 --> 02:31.655\n非常嚴重甚至是國安等級的問題來面對這樣子我想院長幫我們行政團隊我們社會各界大家才能夠認真的去考慮這件事情好不好院長沒錯我們現在就把它當作很重要的治安而且可能影響到動搖整個國家經濟跟社會安定的這個層面來看它確實是一個高層次的治安甚至已經進入到一個國安的要求裡面去了\n\n02:32.095 --> 02:51.884\n我想這個詐騙制動搖國本我們從今年不談去年或前年因為院長你們不斷強調統計數字不一樣那我們就以新的統計方式來看待我想從詐騙的財損來看每個月這麼多錢被騙走平均一天大概兩億到三億我想整個台灣社會有這麼多錢通報被詐騙集團騙走\n\n02:52.904 --> 03:11.591\n那真正的確實我也沒有否認說大家很辛苦有去查扣有查扣沒錯但是你看查扣的金額跟被詐騙的金額我想不成比例啊詐騙集團現在基本上是等於台灣最賺錢的行業但是我們在追溯在查扣的比例裡面我們真的效果不好啊\n\n03:12.071 --> 03:27.737\n那效果不好到什麼程度包含說今天所有委員都放了那支影片我本來也想放但是沒關係我節省時間我們看到那個影片那個廖什麼廖先生我問他叫什麼名字他在他的這個社群上面\n\n03:28.496 --> 03:47.591\n各地都傳這影片那這個廖先生他敢這樣做就表示說他認為詐騙是輕罪對他來講確實他很快就假釋出來了他把這個錢繳一繳他就出來了然後繼續上網去講說啊沒關係想要賺錢的什麼叫做尻的什麼叫做水的這些專業術語\n\n03:48.692 --> 04:08.449\n我等會都要上網查一下但是對他們來講對這個社群來講好像是一個天生的與生俱來他就知道怎麼做的事情所以比方說這個事情這個詐騙問題已經深入到很多的年輕族群很多不汙真人的人他認為反正不管我是真的去做詐騙我去做什麼做尻的我去做水的\n\n04:09.089 --> 04:37.101\n我能夠輕輕鬆鬆的騙過這個司法系統我能夠輕輕鬆鬆的走進法院裡面可能連監獄都不用進去因為他可能半年就出來了半年就出來之後裡面還有一些是什麼勞務役他根本連進去都不用進去他根本不受任何影響我們看真正的這個數據我們看那個詐我們看下一頁刑度統計真正的刑度統計你可以看到說有罪人數確實你們在報告裡面提到\n\n04:38.052 --> 05:03.469\n我們在懲詐的部分今年抓了詐團2025團查獲15912人這個是我們第一線的檢警調非常辛苦的把這些人抓到了那抓到之後院長你看一下這個數據啊我相信法務部也給你看過很多次了這個數據有罪的人每個月每年像一萬多人兩萬人這樣子抓但實際上真的被判三年以上的0.5%0.3%0.4%\n\n05:09.124 --> 05:21.971\n六個月以下的20%一年以上三年以下的50%那還有拘役的所以我們花了這麼多社會資源這麼多社會成本剪剪掉這麼認真這麼多宣導抓到了\n\n05:22.864 --> 05:51.821\n但收進法院判決出來即便我們修法了我要講為什麼特別提今年度因為去年通過打詐條例所以我們本來期待的我們第一時間期待就是說為什麼要修打詐條例當初修打詐條例包含修新法339條之四都是因為說過去看到這樣的數據覺得這麼多人犯罪我抓到了我們希望他至少判刑他的這量刑能夠重一點能夠懲戒比較稍微效果但是從去年修完法到今年為止\n\n05:52.810 --> 06:21.173\n你看這個數據它的比例並沒有明顯的改變欸六個月以下還是佔兩成多一年以上一年以上三年以下的也是要佔五成真的被判到三年以上我們打詐條例希望懲戒的所謂重罪要判到三年以上的一樣只佔百分之零點多而已不佔百分之一喔到底問題出在哪裡到底是我們修法不夠嚴謹還是司法系統判決哪裡出問題還是整個法界我們整個政府機關對於詐騙沒有把他視為重罪才有導致這個結果我們嚴查嚴辦的部分請部長說明\n\n06:22.618 --> 06:46.004\n這部分這份統計數字的話因為我們那個詐偽條例的提高刑度是在去年一一三年八月才開始實行那案件的偵辦必須要有一定的時間那我相信這些數字應該是屬於判決確定的一個案件這個是在舊法時期就是最多是用那個刑法三三九之四的那個刑度那目前的話我們的確是有我們\n\n06:47.064 --> 07:07.215\n认为这个技能新法的成立而且这个诈团的期限一定要再压制所以我们有要求检查要具体修行那具体修行我们台高检署也有定一个球形的一个标准给检查做参考那我们要增加那个积压率让这些诈团的这些手模这些以及用握力板的条款\n\n07:07.891 --> 07:34.928\n來做一個遏止這些詐團的棄業我想這部分的效果會一段時間就會很明顯的看出來那我再跟委員做一個補充剛才委員有說料性攔截側面這個是警方已經移送給Unity監視我想Unity會火速的來處理這個案件來以正視聽因為這一種的話有涉及有可能會涉及到刑法153條的善或他能犯罪\n\n07:35.488 --> 07:54.571\n犯罪的這一種緩衛秩序罪的這些的問題那我想這個的確是此風不可漲這個真是一個假釋中的一個這個怎麼可以去散貨委員部長這個個案喔那我想這部份這個個案當然要處理啦這個個案當然要處理但是我們今天見為之助嘛今天他敢這樣做\n\n07:55.828 --> 08:07.118\n他可以光明正大的那是因為剛好他這個影片我不知道為什麼突然在社群上就爆紅了我也是在社群上看到他發現這個人怎麼那麼囂張但我相信這樣子的心態這樣子的\n\n08:08.130 --> 08:32.953\n這個社群它這樣子的組織它不是唯一一個一定前面很多人做過類似的事情不斷的回溯不斷的再來一遍又一遍包含說前面也有問的我們這種判所謂的詐欺犯罪這些輕罪的人他們的債範率到底多少多少人被抓了被判了半年之後我出來然後我繼續投入同樣的產業繼續再做一樣事情這部分的數據到底我們法務部有沒有掌握\n\n08:33.776 --> 08:59.990\n這部分我們有委員有需要的話我們可以提供給你們做一個參考那我想這個這個輕判的這個大家社會認為輕判我相信在一個假以時日我想這個整個效果會顯示出來因為我跟委員報告其實以前我們繳證署在監的這些受刑人是以毒品最多現在新收的都已經是詐欺最多了那個毒品的這邊一直降從五成降到四成\n\n09:00.751 --> 09:22.793\n現在榨漆是一直在增加那個比例所以現在新收人犯新收最多的就是榨漆犯所以我想這個效果我們新法施行之後已經見到它的效果但是我們在等這個時間因為總是要一個審判的期間這樣才會看出它具體的成果這種數字是屬於\n\n09:24.034 --> 09:39.552\n那個還沒有確定的一個我們希望這個數字能夠盡快呈現因為我提到了去年八月到現在快一年了那當然這個數字案件辦董事要有一定的心法要加快啦這個我是希望說行政的立場也好或是從司法立場也好或從我們多數民的立場\n\n09:41.253 --> 10:08.060\n這個騙就是事實嘛我錢一直被騙走我每個月這麼多民眾的錢被騙走如果我們把它視為常態的一般像以前這樣我要這樣強調為什麼一開始我要講這個案例就是因為我們過去當然你把它視為說這個是整個國家裡面其中一項事情那當然我們就按照流程來處理但今天我想詐騙的問題是動搖國本動搖民間的資產這個真的是我們常常講以前常常講長富於民啊沒想到民間有這麼多資金可以被騙耶一直被騙耶\n\n10:09.040 --> 10:23.488\n那這部分當然希望說這些去做詐騙的人就算他是車手車手被視為說是整個詐騙的產業裡面最底層的但是如果沒有這些車手詐騙也沒辦法成因為你每次都講我們也抓不到手謀啊\n\n10:26.830 --> 10:54.058\n總是要把他手腳砍斷這個跟委員報告我想我們努力現在破獲了今年來就破獲2200多個炸團有我看到報告上面有這個數據不是只有單純一個數據這個炸團整個一個非常大就一個炸團的話就可以壓50幾個人所以我想我們的努力我想如果委員有在注意我們檢警調的這些的懲罰的績效我想你就很有印象\n\n10:54.258 --> 11:23.213\n好部長謝謝再來談一下方法論的部分當然過去我也非常關注詐騙包含因為這是我自己的支持者親身經歷過所以我再提近代域立法院包含提了電信管理法這個二類電信詐騙我們要處理因為二類電信過去也是很多人透過二類電信這個法律的修正也走了一年才終於在基點終於刪讀那後續現在正在執行那當然執行成效好不好也需要等待時間出來那二類電信接下來還有什麼問題要處理我們的所謂的預付卡\n\n11:24.393 --> 11:35.264\n傳統名稱移工卡外勞卡這部分兩百多萬一路在外面辦兩百多萬張但說真的我國的所謂不管合法的非法的移工大約就一百萬左右\n\n11:36.240 --> 11:57.376\n就像你把桃園外島全部抓進去一百萬左右但是我們的卡有兩百多萬張那到底多的卡去哪裡了我們到底現在查到什麼程度在給我的數據裡面目前只有查了一百六十五萬筆那我就很好奇啊電信是有心靈資料的我們如果總外籍人士只有一百萬左右而已我有兩百多萬張卡\n\n11:58.783 --> 12:09.280\n它不是應該很快可以匹配出來這張卡跟那個人有沒有在一起吧同一個人取下兩張卡有沒有在一起吧這不是應該很好查試為什麼要查了這麼久然後還有這麼多卡查不出來\n\n12:10.387 --> 12:34.517\n跟委員報告這一部分我們是預計在8月底3家的239萬全部都清查完畢之所以會有時間的限制是因為當初有一些茶的量能專線怕影響白天入出境管理局的作業這邊我們也謝謝新市警察局跟入出境管理局移民署跟我們的合作這一塊到8月底都會清查出來\n\n12:35.197 --> 12:56.117\n那另外委員也關切了說這一塊部分其實到現在為止也已經停花了25.6萬拒絕申辦了14.6萬所以8月底以前這些全部都清查完畢我今天提這個就是希望說我們這件事情就一開始我所講的我們希望整個行政系統應該把這件事情視為第一要務\n\n12:57.881 --> 13:20.089\n能夠阻止的不管是電信詐騙也好網絡詐騙也好金融詐騙也好我手上就有了資料就是你們能夠確實掌握到資料至少先把這個先斷掉嘛那其他的他用新的手法來騙用新的手法來鑽漏洞我們才有餘力去追查但是你現在是至少要先把手上能夠擁有的先處理完如果連手上擁有的本來我提到的心靈資料\n\n13:21.149 --> 13:43.704\n一個人匹配他有兩張卡這兩張卡在不同地方出現他就擺明不同的人在使用這個應該就可以直接禁掉了不需要等那麼多時間對這邊我們最後清查完畢就是他如果已經出境那卡還在國內就要給他停掉另外委員關心的此卡的數量部分我們也已經在納管就是說外國人大概只以一門為原則本國人是兩門\n\n13:44.693 --> 14:01.520\n那如果说超过两门他要加强的KYC的一些封控也要求业主来做到这一点那我们未来除了在我们KYC指引之外我们现在在政委的打炸的修法里头我们打算修入就是打炸条例14条那边去\n\n14:02.110 --> 14:16.400\n好主委謝謝喔院長接下來還有一個剛剛你提到說其實我們真的銀行很辛苦第一線警察很辛苦所以我們常去阻詐是用人工去阻詐行員說你不可以轉警察就說你不能轉他就硬要轉然後把他轉出去發現自己被騙了\n\n14:17.639 --> 14:46.804\n我能參考新加坡啊因為你剛提的沒錯詐騙是全球問題就連法律大家認為最嚴格的新加坡他們詐騙也非常嚴重所以他們今年提了一個法案ProtectionfromScamsBill的一個法案做什麼事情他就是從被害者的角度去出發今天我們是用柔性勸導的我們台灣是用柔性勸導說你不要轉啦那如果堅持要轉他還是能轉嘛新加坡他們的法案我認為是我們國內可以參考的方式他認為有疑慮的他就發出限制令\n\n14:48.579 --> 15:12.648\n這個帳戶不能把這個錢轉進去大筆的不能轉但是要保留你的生活費你有對詐騙的疑慮警察來介入司法機關來介入把相關的錢保護起來雖然是圈存凍存凍結起來但是你的生活費你要繳學費你要繳房貸你要繳日常的生活費一樣可以繼續支出這樣的方向有沒有可能在我們中華民國政府裡面來試用\n\n15:14.397 --> 15:25.052\n因為我們到底是一個教育自由高度自由的國家跟社會我想要這樣做以保護被害人的身份是值得考量但是一定要取得社會的共識應該把這個議題讓大家來討論好謝謝黃建豪委員資訊\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.997,"end":8.492,"text":"好 謝謝韓院長 我們現在請行政院的卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":21.309,"end":37.634,"text":"黃委員好院長好 院長我想一整天我想我是僅次於幾位官員聽最久的一個委員謝謝委員從早上到現在非常多大家從各個角度來關心我們這個台灣的詐騙委員一定可以給我更多更好的建議我相信應該可以 來"},{"start":38.914,"end":64.151,"text":"一開始我想先放一下新聞當然這個新聞片段的這個標題為什麼要特別提這個我想院長也看過這些新聞但是我跟院長報告這個只是兵山一角為什麼因為我的支持者我的選區裡面也確實有這樣的家庭他沒有上新聞他就是因為被詐騙家裡面受不了這樣的財務壓力他選擇結束自己的生命那這個當然沒有上新聞那他一定會在"},{"start":64.833,"end":82.932,"text":"政府的統計數據裡面它是一個聲明它只是一個數字所以今天院長在這邊我們在這邊質詢在這邊討論詐騙問題我們談了很多數字但是我今天一開始要放這些新聞讓院長知道說我們希望要怎麼樣去解決台灣的詐騙問題最核心的是我們把每一個詐騙案"},{"start":84.113,"end":105.238,"text":"它背後代表的是很多的家庭它代表的可能是每一個人的生計把它放在心裡面去面對這些事情我想我們才有辦法去用同理心去了解受害者的心情因為我想過去在整個司法體系裡面在整個大環境裡面大家認為詐騙好像是小罪 是輕罪從它的量刑 從它的判決"},{"start":106.178,"end":123.979,"text":"看起來過去是這樣子那當然陸陸續續包含說發生這種詐團去虐求這種詐騙集團騙的金額越來越高有這麼多人選擇這樣的方式解除自己生命所以導致說國人現在非常注重詐騙的這個問題所以我要拜託的是說一開始我們討論這是你的前提是要把詐騙它視為"},{"start":125.561,"end":151.655,"text":"非常嚴重甚至是國安等級的問題來面對這樣子我想院長幫我們行政團隊我們社會各界大家才能夠認真的去考慮這件事情好不好 院長沒錯 我們現在就把它當作很重要的治安而且可能影響到動搖整個國家經濟跟社會安定的這個層面來看它確實是一個高層次的治安甚至已經進入到一個國安的要求裡面去了"},{"start":152.095,"end":171.884,"text":"我想這個詐騙制動搖國本我們從今年不談去年或前年因為院長你們不斷強調統計數字不一樣那我們就以新的統計方式來看待我想從詐騙的財損來看每個月這麼多錢被騙走平均一天大概兩億到三億我想整個台灣社會有這麼多錢通報被詐騙集團騙走"},{"start":172.904,"end":191.591,"text":"那真正的確實我也沒有否認說大家很辛苦有去查扣有查扣沒錯但是你看查扣的金額跟被詐騙的金額我想不成比例啊詐騙集團現在基本上是等於台灣最賺錢的行業但是我們在追溯在查扣的比例裡面我們真的效果不好啊"},{"start":192.071,"end":207.737,"text":"那效果不好到什麼程度包含說今天所有委員都放了那支影片我本來也想放但是沒關係我節省時間我們看到那個影片那個廖什麼廖先生我問他叫什麼名字他在他的這個社群上面"},{"start":208.496,"end":227.591,"text":"各地都傳這影片那這個廖先生他敢這樣做就表示說他認為詐騙是輕罪對他來講確實他很快就假釋出來了他把這個錢繳一繳他就出來了然後繼續上網去講說啊沒關係想要賺錢的什麼叫做尻的什麼叫做水的這些專業術語"},{"start":228.692,"end":248.449,"text":"我等會都要上網查一下但是對他們來講對這個社群來講好像是一個天生的與生俱來他就知道怎麼做的事情所以比方說這個事情這個詐騙問題已經深入到很多的年輕族群很多不汙真人的人他認為反正不管我是真的去做詐騙我去做什麼做尻的我去做水的"},{"start":249.089,"end":277.101,"text":"我能夠輕輕鬆鬆的騙過這個司法系統我能夠輕輕鬆鬆的走進法院裡面可能連監獄都不用進去因為他可能半年就出來了半年就出來之後裡面還有一些是什麼勞務役他根本連進去都不用進去他根本不受任何影響我們看真正的這個數據我們看那個詐我們看下一頁刑度統計真正的刑度統計你可以看到說有罪人數確實你們在報告裡面提到"},{"start":278.052,"end":303.469,"text":"我們在懲詐的部分今年抓了詐團2025團查獲15912人這個是我們第一線的檢警調非常辛苦的把這些人抓到了那抓到之後院長你看一下這個數據啊我相信法務部也給你看過很多次了這個數據有罪的人每個月每年像一萬多人兩萬人這樣子抓但實際上真的被判三年以上的0.5%0.3%0.4%"},{"start":309.124,"end":321.971,"text":"六個月以下的20%一年以上三年以下的50%那還有拘役的所以我們花了這麼多社會資源這麼多社會成本剪剪掉這麼認真這麼多宣導抓到了"},{"start":322.864,"end":351.821,"text":"但收進法院判決出來即便我們修法了我要講為什麼特別提今年度因為去年通過打詐條例所以我們本來期待的我們第一時間期待就是說為什麼要修打詐條例當初修打詐條例包含修新法339條之四都是因為說過去看到這樣的數據覺得這麼多人犯罪我抓到了我們希望他至少判刑他的這量刑能夠重一點能夠懲戒比較稍微效果但是從去年修完法到今年為止"},{"start":352.81,"end":381.173,"text":"你看這個數據它的比例並沒有明顯的改變欸六個月以下還是佔兩成多一年以上 一年以上 三年以下的也是要佔五成真的被判到三年以上我們打詐條例希望懲戒的所謂重罪要判到三年以上的一樣只佔百分之零點多而已不佔百分之一喔到底問題出在哪裡到底是我們修法不夠嚴謹還是司法系統判決哪裡出問題還是整個法界 我們整個政府機關對於詐騙沒有把他視為重罪才有導致這個結果我們嚴查嚴辦的部分請部長說明"},{"start":382.618,"end":406.004,"text":"這部分這份統計數字的話因為我們那個詐偽條例的提高刑度是在去年一一三年八月才開始實行那案件的偵辦必須要有一定的時間那我相信這些數字應該是屬於判決確定的一個案件這個是在舊法時期就是最多是用那個刑法三三九之四的那個刑度那目前的話我們的確是有我們"},{"start":407.064,"end":427.215,"text":"认为这个技能新法的成立而且这个诈团的期限一定要再压制所以我们有要求检查要具体修行那具体修行我们台高检署也有定一个球形的一个标准给检查做参考那我们要增加那个积压率让这些诈团的这些手模这些以及用握力板的条款"},{"start":427.891,"end":454.928,"text":"來做一個遏止這些詐團的棄業我想這部分的效果會一段時間就會很明顯的看出來那我再跟委員做一個補充剛才委員有說料性攔截側面這個是警方已經移送給Unity監視我想Unity會火速的來處理這個案件來以正視聽因為這一種的話有涉及有可能會涉及到刑法153條的善或他能犯罪"},{"start":455.488,"end":474.571,"text":"犯罪的這一種 緩衛秩序罪的這些的問題那我想這個的確是此風不可漲這個真是一個假釋中的一個這個怎麼可以去散貨委員部長 這個個案喔那我想這部份這個個案當然要處理啦這個個案當然要處理但是我們今天見為之助嘛今天他敢這樣做"},{"start":475.828,"end":487.118,"text":"他可以光明正大的那是因為剛好他這個影片我不知道為什麼突然在社群上就爆紅了我也是在社群上看到他發現這個人怎麼那麼囂張但我相信這樣子的心態這樣子的"},{"start":488.13,"end":512.953,"text":"這個社群它這樣子的組織它不是唯一一個一定前面很多人做過類似的事情不斷的回溯不斷的再來一遍又一遍包含說前面也有問的我們這種判所謂的詐欺犯罪這些輕罪的人他們的債範率到底多少多少人被抓了被判了半年之後我出來然後我繼續投入同樣的產業繼續再做一樣事情這部分的數據到底我們法務部有沒有掌握"},{"start":513.776,"end":539.99,"text":"這部分我們有委員有需要的話我們可以提供給你們做一個參考那我想這個這個輕判的這個大家社會認為輕判我相信在一個假以時日我想這個整個效果會顯示出來因為我跟委員報告其實以前我們繳證署在監的這些受刑人是以毒品最多現在新收的都已經是詐欺最多了那個毒品的這邊一直降從五成降到四成"},{"start":540.751,"end":562.793,"text":"現在榨漆是一直在增加那個比例所以現在新收人犯新收最多的就是榨漆犯所以我想這個效果我們新法施行之後已經見到它的效果但是我們在等這個時間因為總是要一個審判的期間這樣才會看出它具體的成果這種數字是屬於"},{"start":564.034,"end":579.552,"text":"那個還沒有確定的一個我們希望這個數字能夠盡快呈現因為我提到了去年八月到現在快一年了那當然這個數字案件辦董事要有一定的心法要加快啦這個我是希望說行政的立場也好或是從司法立場也好或從我們多數民的立場"},{"start":581.253,"end":608.06,"text":"這個騙就是事實嘛我錢一直被騙走我每個月這麼多民眾的錢被騙走如果我們把它視為常態的一般像以前這樣我要這樣強調為什麼一開始我要講這個案例就是因為我們過去當然你把它視為說這個是整個國家裡面其中一項事情那當然我們就按照流程來處理但今天我想詐騙的問題是動搖國本動搖民間的資產這個真的是我們常常講以前常常講長富於民啊沒想到民間有這麼多資金可以被騙耶一直被騙耶"},{"start":609.04,"end":623.488,"text":"那這部分當然希望說這些去做詐騙的人就算他是車手車手被視為說是整個詐騙的產業裡面最底層的但是如果沒有這些車手詐騙也沒辦法成因為你每次都講我們也抓不到手謀啊"},{"start":626.83,"end":654.058,"text":"總是要把他手腳砍斷這個跟委員報告我想我們努力現在破獲了今年來就破獲2200多個炸團有 我看到報告上面有這個數據不是只有單純一個數據這個炸團整個一個非常大就一個炸團的話就可以壓50幾個人所以我想我們的努力我想如果委員有在注意我們檢警調的這些的懲罰的績效我想你就很有印象"},{"start":654.258,"end":683.213,"text":"好 部長謝謝再來談一下方法論的部分當然過去我也非常關注詐騙包含因為這是我自己的支持者親身經歷過所以我再提近代域立法院包含提了電信管理法這個二類電信詐騙我們要處理因為二類電信過去也是很多人透過二類電信這個法律的修正也走了一年才終於在基點終於刪讀那後續現在正在執行那當然執行成效好不好也需要等待時間出來那二類電信接下來還有什麼問題要處理我們的所謂的預付卡"},{"start":684.393,"end":695.264,"text":"傳統名稱移工卡 外勞卡這部分兩百多萬一路在外面 辦兩百多萬張但說真的 我國的所謂不管合法的 非法的移工大約就一百萬左右"},{"start":696.24,"end":717.376,"text":"就像你把桃園外島全部抓進去一百萬左右但是我們的卡有兩百多萬張那到底多的卡去哪裡了我們到底現在查到什麼程度在給我的數據裡面目前只有查了一百六十五萬筆那我就很好奇啊電信是有心靈資料的我們如果總外籍人士只有一百萬左右而已我有兩百多萬張卡"},{"start":718.783,"end":729.28,"text":"它不是應該很快可以匹配出來這張卡跟那個人有沒有在一起吧同一個人取下兩張卡有沒有在一起吧這不是應該很好查試為什麼要查了這麼久然後還有這麼多卡查不出來"},{"start":730.387,"end":754.517,"text":"跟委員報告這一部分我們是預計在8月底3家的239萬全部都清查完畢之所以會有時間的限制是因為當初有一些茶的量能專線怕影響白天入出境管理局的作業這邊我們也謝謝新市警察局跟入出境管理局移民署跟我們的合作這一塊到8月底都會清查出來"},{"start":755.197,"end":776.117,"text":"那另外委員也關切了說這一塊部分其實到現在為止也已經停花了25.6萬拒絕申辦了14.6萬所以8月底以前這些全部都清查完畢我今天提這個就是希望說我們這件事情就一開始我所講的我們希望整個行政系統應該把這件事情視為第一要務"},{"start":777.881,"end":800.089,"text":"能夠阻止的不管是電信詐騙也好網絡詐騙也好金融詐騙也好我手上就有了資料就是你們能夠確實掌握到資料至少先把這個先斷掉嘛那其他的他用新的手法來騙用新的手法來鑽漏洞我們才有餘力去追查但是你現在是至少要先把手上能夠擁有的先處理完如果連手上擁有的本來我提到的心靈資料"},{"start":801.149,"end":823.704,"text":"一個人匹配他有兩張卡這兩張卡在不同地方出現他就擺明不同的人在使用這個應該就可以直接禁掉了不需要等那麼多時間對 這邊我們最後清查完畢就是他如果已經出境那卡還在國內就要給他停掉另外委員關心的此卡的數量部分我們也已經在納管就是說外國人大概只以一門為原則本國人是兩門"},{"start":824.693,"end":841.52,"text":"那如果说超过两门他要加强的KYC的一些封控也要求业主来做到这一点那我们未来除了在我们KYC指引之外我们现在在政委的打炸的修法里头我们打算修入就是打炸条例14条那边去"},{"start":842.11,"end":856.4,"text":"好主委謝謝喔院長接下來還有一個剛剛你提到說其實我們真的銀行很辛苦第一線警察很辛苦所以我們常去阻詐是用人工去阻詐行員說你不可以轉警察就說你不能轉他就硬要轉然後把他轉出去發現自己被騙了"},{"start":857.639,"end":886.804,"text":"我能參考新加坡啊因為你剛提的沒錯詐騙是全球問題就連法律大家認為最嚴格的新加坡他們詐騙也非常嚴重所以他們今年提了一個法案Protection from Scams Bill的一個法案做什麼事情他就是從被害者的角度去出發今天我們是用柔性勸導的我們台灣是用柔性勸導說你不要轉啦那如果堅持要轉他還是能轉嘛新加坡他們的法案我認為是我們國內可以參考的方式他認為有疑慮的他就發出限制令"},{"start":888.579,"end":912.648,"text":"這個帳戶不能把這個錢轉進去大筆的不能轉但是要保留你的生活費你有對詐騙的疑慮警察來介入 司法機關來介入把相關的錢保護起來雖然是圈存 凍存 凍結起來但是你的生活費你要繳學費你要繳房貸 你要繳日常的生活費一樣可以繼續支出這樣的方向有沒有可能在我們中華民國政府裡面來試用"},{"start":914.397,"end":925.052,"text":"因為我們到底是一個教育自由高度自由的國家跟社會我想要這樣做以保護被害人的身份是值得考量但是一定要取得社會的共識應該把這個議題讓大家來討論好謝謝黃建豪委員資訊"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":517,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（16時34分）謝謝韓院長。我一樣請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：院長好。我想一整天了，我是僅次於幾位官員聽最久的一個委員……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["黃委員健豪：從早上到現在，大家從各個角度來關心臺灣的詐騙問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員一定可以給我更多、更好的建議。"],["黃委員健豪：我也相信應該可以。一開始，我先放一下新聞片段的標題，為什麼要特別提這個？我想院長看過這些新聞，但是我要跟院長報告，這個只是冰山一角，為什麼？因為我的支持者、我的選區裡面也確實有這樣的家庭，雖然沒有上新聞，他就是因為被詐騙，家裡面受不了這樣的財務壓力，他選擇結束自己的生命。這個當然沒有上新聞，但一定會在政府的統計數據裡面。他是一個生命，卻只是一個數字，所以今天我們在這邊質詢院長、討論詐騙問題，談了很多數字，但我今天一開始放這些新聞是要讓院長知道，怎麼樣去解決臺灣的詐騙問題，最核心的是每一個詐騙案背後代表的是很多家庭，代表的可能是每一個人的生計，把他放在心裡去面對這些事情，我們才有辦法用同理心了解受害者的心情。","過去在整個司法體系裡面、在整個大環境裡面，大家認為詐騙好像是小罪、輕罪，從它的量刑、從它的判決看起來，過去是這樣子，當然陸陸續續發生包含詐團虐囚、詐騙集團騙的金額越來越高，有這麼多人選擇以這樣的方式結束自己生命，導致國人現在非常注重詐騙這個問題。所以我要拜託，一開始我們討論這件事情的前提是要把詐騙視為非常嚴重、甚至是國安等級的問題來面對，這樣包含院長、行政團隊及社會各界，大家才能夠認真去考慮這件事情，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯，我們現在就把它當作很重要的治安，而且從可能影響、動搖整個國家經濟跟社會安定的層面來看，它確實是一個高層次的治安、甚至已經進入到國安的要求裡面。"],["黃委員健豪：詐騙真的動搖國本！我從今年，不談去年或前年，因為院長不斷強調統計數字不一樣，我們就以新的統計方式來看待。從詐騙的財損來看，每個月有這麼多錢被騙走，平均一天大概兩億到三億，整個臺灣社會竟有這麼多錢通報被詐騙集團騙走。我也沒有否認大家很辛苦，雖然有查扣沒錯，但是你看查扣的金額跟被詐騙的金額不成比例。詐騙集團現在基本上是臺灣最賺錢的行業，但是我們追溯、查扣比例的效果真的不好，效果不好到什麼程度？","今天所有委員都放了那支影片，我本來也想放，但是沒關係，節省時間。我們看到那個影片有一位廖先生，我忘記他叫什麼名字了，他在他的社群上發影片，而各地都傳在這個影片，這個廖先生敢這樣做，就表示他認為詐騙是輕罪。對他來講，確實很快就假釋出來了，他把錢繳一繳就出來了，繼續上網說：沒關係，想要賺錢的、什麼叫做尻的、什麼叫做水的，這些專業術語連我都要上網查一下，但是對他們來講、對這個社群來講，好像是天生的、與生俱來就知道要怎麼做的事情。比方這個事情顯現詐騙問題已經深入到很多年輕族群、很多不務正業的人，他認為反正不管是不是真的去做詐騙，或是做尻的、做水的，能夠輕輕鬆鬆地騙過司法系統，能夠輕輕鬆鬆地走進法院裡面，可能連監獄都不用進去，因為他可能半年就出來了，半年出來之後，裡面還有一些是勞務役，他連進去都不用進去，根本不受任何影響。","更何況我們從真正的數據、真正的刑度統計可以看到有罪人數，你在報告裡面確實提到懲詐的部分，今年抓了詐團2,025團，查獲1萬5,912人，這是第一線的檢警調非常辛苦地把這些人抓到了，但抓到之後，院長看一下這個數據，我相信法務部也給你看過很多次了。這個數據顯示有罪的人每年有一萬多人、兩萬人這樣子抓，但實際上真的被判三年以上的0.5%、0.3%、0.4%；六個月以下的20%；一年以上三年以下的50%；還有拘役的。所以我們花了這麼多社會資源、這麼多社會成本，檢警調這麼認真、這麼多宣導，抓到了，但送進法院判決出來，即便我們修法了，我為什麼特別提今年度？因為去年通過打詐條例，所以我們本來第一時間期待的，為什麼要修打詐條例？當初修打詐條例，包含修刑法第三百三十九條之四，都是因為過去看到這樣的數據，覺得這麼多人犯罪，我們抓到了，希望至少他的量刑能夠重一點，能夠讓懲戒稍微有效果，但是從去年修完法到今年為止，你看這個數據，它的比例並沒有明顯的改變耶！六個月以下還是占兩成多；一年以上三年以下的也是一樣占五成；真的被判到三年以上，我們打詐條例希望懲戒的所謂重罪，要判到三年以上的，一樣只占百分之零點多而已，不到1%喔！到底問題出在哪裡？到底是我們修法不夠嚴謹？還是司法系統判決哪裡出問題？還是整個法界、我們整個政府機關沒有把詐騙視為重罪，才導致這個結果？"],["卓院長榮泰：嚴查嚴辦的部分請部長說明。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分統計數字，因為我們詐危條例提高刑度是在去年113年8月才開始施行，而案件的偵辦必須要有一定的時間，我相信這些數字應該是屬於判決確定的案件，這個是在舊法時期，最多是用刑法第三百三十九條之四的刑度。目前我們的確認為既然新法成立，而且對於詐團的氣焰一定要再壓制，所以我們有要求檢察官要具體求刑，並且我們臺高檢署也有訂求刑的標準給檢察官做參考，我們要增加羈押率，讓詐團的這些首謀……以及用窩裡反條款來遏止這些詐團的氣焰，我想這部分的效果一段時間後就會很明顯地看出來。","我再跟委員做一個補充，剛才委員說廖姓男子這個案件，警方已經移送給雲林地檢署，我想雲林地檢署會火速來處理，以正視聽，因為他有可能會涉及刑法第一百五十三條「煽惑他人犯罪」這種妨害秩序罪的問題。我想的確是此風不可長，假釋中的……怎麼可以去散播，這部分檢調會處理。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，這個個案當然要處理，但是我們今天見微知著，今天他敢這樣做，他可以光明正大的，那是因為剛好他這個影片我不知道為什麼突然在社群上就爆紅了，我也是在社群上看到，才發現這個人怎麼那麼囂張。但我相信這樣子的心態、這樣子的社群、這樣子的組織，他不是唯一一個，一定前面很多人做過類似的事情，不斷地回溯，不斷再來一遍又一遍。包含前面也有委員問，這種判詐欺犯罪、這些輕罪的，他們的再犯率到底多少？多少人被抓了，被判了半年之後出來，然後又繼續投入同樣的產業，繼續在做一樣的事情？這部分的數據我們法務部到底有沒有掌握？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分委員有需要，我們可以提供給你做參考，我想大家、社會認為輕判，但我相信假以時日，整個效果會顯現出來。我跟委員報告，其實以前我們矯正署在監的這些受刑人是以毒品最多，但現在新收的都已經是詐欺最多了，毒品的一直降，從五成降到四成，而現在詐欺比例是一直增加，因此現在新收人犯、新收最多的就是詐欺犯。所以我們新法施行之後已經見到它的效果，但是我們再等這個時間，因為總是要一個審判的期間，這樣才會看出它具體的成果，因此這個數字是屬於還沒有確定的數據。"],["黃委員健豪：好，我們希望這數字能夠儘快呈現，因為我前面提到，去年8月到現在快1年了啦！當然這個數字……"],["鄭部長銘謙：依新法辦案總是要有一定的時程……"],["黃委員健豪：要加快啦，我希望從行政的立場也好，或是從司法立場也好，或從我們多數民眾的立場，「騙」就是事實嘛，我錢一直被騙走，每個月這麼多民眾的錢被騙走，如果我們把它視為常態，像以前這樣……我還是要強調為什麼一開始要講這個案例？就是因為我們過去……當然你把它視為這個是整個國家裡面其中一項事情，我們就按照流程來處理，但今天詐騙的問題是動搖國本、動搖民間的資產，我們以前常常講「藏富於民」，我沒想到民間有這麼多資金可以被騙，一直被騙耶！我們當然希望這些去做詐騙的人，就算他是車手，車手被視為是整個詐騙產業鏈裡面最底層的，但是如果沒有這些車手，詐騙也沒辦法成功，因為講真的你們也抓不到首謀啊，但總是要把他的手腳砍斷嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，其實我們也很努力，以破獲案件來講，今年以來就破獲兩千兩百多個詐騙……"],["黃委員健豪：有，我看到這個報告上面有。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個數據不是只有單純的一個數據，整個詐團非常大，一個詐團就可以押五十幾個人，對於我們的努力，如果委員有在注意檢、警、調的懲詐績效，我相信你會很有印象。"],["黃委員健豪：好，部長謝謝。再來還是要討論方法論的部分，當然過去我也非常關注詐騙，因為這是我的支持者親身經歷過，所以我進來立法院之後包含提了電信管理法，針對二類電信詐騙我們要處理，因為過去也有很多人是透過二類電信，這個法令的修正也走了一年，才在今年終於三讀，現在正在執行，當然執行成效好或不好也需要等待時間出來。","二類電信接下來還有什麼問題要處理？所謂的預付卡，傳統名稱移工卡、外勞卡這部分有兩百多萬張，移工在外面辦了兩百多萬張，但說真的，我國不管合法、非法的移工，大約就100萬左右，就算你把逃逸外勞全部抓進去，總數就是100萬左右，但是我們的卡有兩百多萬張，到底多的卡去哪裡了？現在到底查到什麼程度？在給我的數據裡面，目前只有查了165萬筆，那我就很好奇，電信是有信令資料的，如果總外籍人士只有100萬左右而已，但目前卻有兩百多萬張卡，那不是應該很快可以匹配出來這張卡跟那個人有沒有在一起嗎？同一個人名下的兩張卡有沒有在一起，這不是應該很好查的事情，為什麼查了這麼久，還有這麼多卡查不出來？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，這部分我們是預計在8月底對於三家的兩百三十幾萬張全部都清查完畢，之所以會有時間的限制，是因為當初有些查的量能專線怕影響白天入出境管理局的作業，在這邊也要謝謝刑事警察局及入出入出境管理局、移民署跟我們的合作，這一塊到8月底都會清查出來。另外，委員也關切這部分其實到現在為止已經停發25.6萬張，拒絕申辦14.6萬張，所以8月底以前這些全部都清查完畢，另外……"],["黃委員健豪：我今天提這個問題就是希望像我一開始所講的，我們整個行政系統應該把這件事情視為第一要務，能夠阻止的，不管是電信詐騙也好、網路詐騙也好、金融詐騙也好，就你們手上舊有的資料，就是你們能夠確實掌握到的資料，至少先把這個斷掉嘛，至於其他用新的手法來騙、用新的手法來鑽漏洞，我們才有餘力去追查，但是你現在至少要把手上能夠擁有的先處理完，如果連手上能擁有的都無法處理，像剛剛我提到的信令資料，一個人匹配他有兩張卡，這兩張卡在不同地方出現，那就擺明是不同一個人在使用，這個應該就可以直接禁掉，不需要等那麼多時間啊！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，這邊我們就會清查完畢，就是他如果已經出境，而卡還在國內的，我們就會給他停掉。","另外，委員關心的持卡數量的部分，我們也已經在納管，就是外國人只以一門為原則，本國人是兩門，如果超過兩門，就要加強KYC的一些風控，也要求業者做到這一點。未來除了在KYC的執行之外，目前在政委的打詐修法裡頭，我們打算修到打詐條例第十四條那邊去。"],["黃委員健豪：主委謝謝。院長，剛剛你提到銀行行員很辛苦，第一線警察很辛苦，也就是我們的阻詐常常是用人工去阻詐，行員說你不可以轉，警察說你不能轉，但他就硬要轉，然後轉出去之後發現自己被騙了。","我們可以參考新加坡，你剛剛說得沒錯，詐騙是全球問題，就連大家認為法律最嚴格的新加坡，他們的詐騙也非常嚴重，所以他們今年提了一個法案叫做Protection From Scams Bill，這是做什麼事情？就是從被害者的角度出發，今天我們是用柔性勸導，臺灣是用柔性勸導說你不要轉，他如果堅持要轉，他還是能轉。新加坡的法案我認為是我們國內可以參考的方式，他認為有疑慮的，他就發出限制令，這個帳戶不能把錢轉進去，大筆的不能轉，但是他保留你的生活費，你有對詐騙的疑慮，警察來介入、司法機關來介入，把相關的錢保護起來，算是圈存凍結起來，但是你的生活費、你要繳學費、你要繳房貸、你要繳日常的生活費，一樣可以繼續支出，這樣的方向有沒有可能在中華民國政府裡面來適用？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為我們到底還是一個交易自由、高度自由的國家跟社會，我想若要這樣做，基於保護被害人的身分，這是值得考量的，但是一定要取得社會的共識，應該把這個議題讓大家來討論。"],["黃委員健豪：好，院長謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的建議。"],["主席：謝謝黃健豪委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長備詢。","接下來我們請陳亭妃委員質詢，葛如鈞委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-25","speakers":["韓國瑜","傅崐萁","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","羅智強","劉書彬","王義川","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","張智倫","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","賴士葆","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","黃健豪","陳亭妃","葛如鈞","林楚茵","陳冠廷"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2025-08-15"],"gazette_id":"1147101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147101_00002","1147101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第25次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領2.0執行成效」專案報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147101_00004"}}}