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00:00:55,343\n那是針對我們這次應該說114年的預算有關這636億當初通刪沒有指定具體刪減的內容本席在這裡要還原也要釐清一些程序還有一些依法的事實首先第一個我們當初\n\n3\n00:00:57,704 --> 00:01:13,214\n這個沒有具體刪減的內容本席要就過去立法院你也擔任過立法委員我們立法院審查預算的時候按照慣例我們在最後二讀三讀協商的時候\n\n4\n00:01:14,828 --> 00:01:37,879\n立法院都會請行政院的各部會來協調通商的預算當時我們立法院的行政同仁邀請行政單位但行政單位都不出席這個是杯葛杯葛我們這個協商的程序並非如此\n\n5\n00:01:39,674 --> 00:01:50,989\n這個本席要請教您您當時知道行政院已經不跟立法院溝通這636億元的金額和數字分配嗎您當時知道嗎我們是在表決之後才知道的\n\n6\n00:01:53,840 --> 00:02:12,816\n這個三檢我們的通山這個提案早就出來了而且我們在程序過程中行政院都不派員說明請問誰決定不要派員的以前行政院各單位都會很積極的來跟立法院這邊溝通為什麼獨獨今年沒有\n\n7\n00:02:14,778 --> 00:02:38,465\n至少在院本部跟秘書長這個層級上面我們沒有被接到通知要來進行任何關於這個通商部分的任何協商事件有立法院有通知而且立法院的這個官員也有通知各部會所以這個是第一個我們行政院不能夠蓄意杯葛\n\n8\n00:02:39,502 --> 00:03:01,899\n那再來就是過去依照案例都會提出既然是通刪都會提出刪減清單為什麼這個行政院這一次也可以不回應都沒有提出而且消極不作為整個杯葛立法院的審查這個是我們整個憲政運作最壞的案例因為馬上下個會期下個月9月\n\n9\n00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:17,508\n115年的總預算又要開始審查了所以本席針對這一塊這個是一開始的原因我看今天的質詢裡面我們政天才委員也有稍微提到所以這一塊本席要特別的提出來強調\n\n10\n00:03:18,929 --> 00:03:42,482\n我們行政院惡意的杯葛這個也等於是爛拳行政院沒有惡意杯葛我們也沒有接到任何被要求來協調的時間再來往年都有通山之力但是今年這個通山數額之大過往從來沒有數額大小這個是另一個議題我記得90年林國90年度有一次有一個\n\n11\n00:03:43,903 --> 00:04:01,964\n300多億的一個通商後來這個差減數大概是幾十億有經過一個調整雙方同意了來調整但是今天636億從來沒有做下來說這636億數這麼大行政院如何接受所以內容如何來拚這個部分就是立法院邀請行政院\n\n12\n00:04:02,845 --> 00:04:21,053\n集體杯葛不來啊沒有杯葛沒有杯葛這個所以現在這個這個就螺旋門或許是有時間差的誤會但沒有杯葛我們願意來我們希望115年的總預算審查的時候不要有這種情況可以嗎可以嗎這一次我們的補救方法這個最佳預算這等一下我們來談好接著\n\n13\n00:04:21,892 --> 00:04:49,345\n我們看到沒有提到這個刪減的清單立法院尊重行政院讓你636億給你一個彈性調整的空間空間跟彈性讓你可以兼顧經費的節約以及行政效能結果我們接著看我們尊重行政院給行政院空間結果行政院怎麼樣呢\n\n14\n00:04:51,176 --> 00:05:02,941\n違法挪移院長您本身是學法律的本席要一一的來讓我們應該要讓全國的民眾知道首先第一個\n\n15\n00:05:05,871 --> 00:05:34,765\n行政院把這636億整個轉嫁到一般性地方政府的一般性補助款但是我們在整個114年度總預算案通案刪減的這個內容裡面案由的第一行就講他是針對中央各機關及所屬通案刪減然後接著底下有十幾項所以很明顯明顯的寫出來\n\n16\n00:05:36,611 --> 00:05:59,462\n這邊有嘛對中央各機關中央各機關及所屬他通案刪減所以我不相信我們整個行政院會不知道啊他怎麼可以變成是地方性的這個一般性的地方政府的一般性補助款這第一個再第二個第二個是我們114年通過的總預算\n\n17\n00:06:03,442 --> 00:06:20,188\n整個三讀通過的總預算有很多內容其中第26款來下一頁第26款第一項針對直轄市以及縣市一般性補助款是2501億1279萬照列院長\n\n18\n00:06:29,052 --> 00:06:53,152\n這麼明確怎麼這636億會變成這個一般性的轉嫁到地方委員上一張圖下面有一行字是叫做從其他項目自行刪減自行調整幫你回頭看一下對其他項目但是也是在中央各機關級所屬其他項目是指中央各機關級所屬\n\n19\n00:06:55,137 --> 00:07:00,632\n但是以其他項目刪減替代科目自行調整非常清楚\n\n20\n00:07:05,646 --> 00:07:31,306\n對是在他是架構在中央各機關及所屬不是直轄市及一般縣市政府他把各機關都列出來在文字上都有了沒有列就是其他項目其他項目刪減替代這個真的院長您念法的不要跟我玩文字遊戲接著接著沒有沒有接著接著我們下一頁沒有嗎我們那個114年通過的總預算對啊\n\n21\n00:07:34,108 --> 00:08:03,828\n我們通過三讀的照列這個照列是地方直轄市及縣市一般性補助款完全照列啊當初我們在8月30號的文當中有提到如果經過審查之後有變動我們就會依這個審查的結果預調您在報告中特別提到這一點所以本席接著就請教您你說你可以依法來調整請問你依哪一條法律\n\n22\n00:08:04,388 --> 00:08:27,900\n你依哪一條法律你可以動用到這個地方政府的一般性補助法好太好了來秀出來中央對直轄市及縣市政府的補助辦法院長這邊明確列出來第4條第5條第6條第12條第13條請問地方政府犯了哪一條\n\n23\n00:08:29,230 --> 00:08:53,269\n沒有犯哪一條行政院也沒有犯哪一條啊也是被刪了1439億所以就說這些地方政府的一般性補助款他如果有法律補助辦法有規定他如果有執行效能低落他開源節流的績效很差還是他依法該徵收而沒有徵收的都沒有犯啊\n\n24\n00:08:53,729 --> 00:09:13,477\n然後你一視同仁的這個刪減這不是行政院的要行政院自行刪除是犯了剛剛委員說的哪一條是低落呢還是行政院自行刪除是犯了哪一條這個刪除他不是犯哪一條他就是立法院針對通案刪減我還沒講完要行政院準結經費\n\n25\n00:09:15,663 --> 00:09:38,244\n要行政院準決經費所以你不用反問我我是在請教您您依法是依哪一個法我們現在對於地方你們把這636億轉嫁過去是完全違法違憲的這不是轉嫁過去就是我剛剛早上說的源頭的水沒有了那支流的水當然就會減少這必然的\n\n26\n00:09:39,445 --> 00:09:56,458\n不是你源頭你不能全部混在一起這個刪讀通過的他有哪些能夠刪哪些不能刪的然後照列的那這樣變成行政院完全不用依法行政可以違法亂紀\n\n27\n00:09:58,114 --> 00:10:05,499\n沒有財政紀律院長這個很可怕耶人家說風行草原上行下效所以白紙黑字全國民眾完全沒有被遵守\n\n28\n00:10:14,312 --> 00:10:35,889\n照憲法照預算法不能隨意增加稅出要跟行政院徵詢這個也沒有履行我們現在在討論這636億不能夠轉嫁到直轄市及地方政府的一般性補助款我在跟您談這個你行政院這個作為你是帶頭違法\n\n29\n00:10:37,745 --> 00:10:57,388\n那立法院在三行政院1439議席之後也應該想到要我們通山636的時候也應該想到所以院長您講不出來沒有依法沒有依法我依這個辦法有依法所以院長只要您願意您承認這是一個錯誤的決策我覺得您的幕僚真的給您錯誤的決策沒有錯誤\n\n30\n00:10:59,686 --> 00:11:12,436\n我必須講本席必須說我們都是中華民國的國民我們就像一家人OK今天不能夠假設真的中央政府\n\n31\n00:11:13,652 --> 00:11:36,181\n行政院各部會你錢真的怎麼樣挪不出來可以跟立法院協調啊你不能用綁架你綁架什麼你綁架所有區立委心中的那塊軟肋最軟的那塊肉你就像家人今天家人你真的預算經費怎麼樣我們可以溝通協調溝通協調之後\n\n32\n00:11:39,042 --> 00:11:58,532\n好你要追加我們經過溝通協調可以可是你們用了最錯誤的方法你綁架地方綁架人民把預算刪減之後把財化調整之後讓掌握掌櫃的人要去借錢來做這些事情你們的這個行為行為違法\n\n33\n00:12:01,914 --> 00:12:17,665\n你違反財政紀律而且你跟全國民眾你這樣講根本就是欺騙民眾我們如果違反財政紀律我們不可能有那麼多的稅計剩餘我們累積了那麼多的稅計剩餘現在卻必須去舉債來編特別預算這難道是一家人嗎\n\n34\n00:12:18,789 --> 00:12:35,614\n所以家人會這麼做嗎所以我這個當然這有很多我們其他可以談的但是我現在在談你們選擇這個行為這個是最卑劣的行為我們是被動的最卑劣你今天所以你院長你就承認了\n\n35\n00:12:36,354 --> 00:12:59,825\n你今天你是在做政治的操作你操作你讓地方民眾而且你這些錢你故意犧牲孩子的營養午餐長輩的照護偏鄉的救護還有教育的資源育兒津貼甚至地方的救災經費所以我們115年預算馬上要審\n\n36\n00:13:04,264 --> 00:13:31,191\n我們真的希望行政院不要這樣不要違法亂紀我們立法院一切依法你們也要依法行政那當然有自愛難行的本席也認同我們可以溝通甚至你們提出來追加預算這都是正確的政治的操作所以我們今天共同來解決問題希望追加預算下禮拜能夠被大院所支持\n\n37\n00:13:32,151 --> 00:13:53,226\n您立刻撥補這個636億給地方追加預算是另外一回事你不能夠挾持地方啊這樣是錯誤的行為行政院不是印鈔機不是魔術師啊沒有錢就是沒有錢這一些錢是造劣你怎麼會沒有錢這一些錢是造劣已經被刪減掉啦\n\n38\n00:13:54,927 --> 00:14:23,974\n錢是在啊沒有啊那好本席現在請教你不是本席請教你我們我們這個那這樣你說錢都用光我們針對中央各機關所屬通案刪減請問通案刪減適用的中央各機關所屬他整個的經費總經費是多少你們有統計嗎本席跟行政院相關單位要到我到我要質詢都不給\n\n39\n00:14:25,336 --> 00:14:41,577\n那如果你們有這麼精準的去計算院長你應該很清楚不是稅出而是我們針對通案刪減的對象中央所屬機關這些可以通案刪減的他的總經費是多少303億啊\n\n40\n00:14:42,859 --> 00:14:56,494\n不是你那個303億是我們已經列出來要刪我指的是他的總預算總預算有多少可以很清楚的算出來的\n\n41\n00:14:57,451 --> 00:15:15,659\n那你們應該算出來啦怎麼到現在本席藥都不給其中有的出國旅費被刪了60%有的特別費全刪有的教育費全刪刪多少那你們要看你今年比去年你浮邊了多少你增加了多少你沒講所以院長\n\n42\n00:15:16,559 --> 00:15:29,984\n今年要再審預算我們只希望行政院要依法行政報告委員今年的3兆1325億的稅出扣掉2806億的行政預算跟去年差不多好謝謝徐新委的質詢也謝謝卓院長備詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11191\t29363\t謝謝院長 主席 我們請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢學員好卓院長好 辛苦了今天我們的專案報告\n32537\t55343\t那是針對我們這次應該說114年的預算有關這636億當初通刪沒有指定具體刪減的內容本席在這裡要還原也要釐清一些程序還有一些依法的事實首先第一個我們當初\n57704\t73214\t這個沒有具體刪減的內容本席要就過去立法院你也擔任過立法委員我們立法院審查預算的時候按照慣例我們在最後二讀三讀協商的時候\n74828\t97879\t立法院都會請行政院的各部會來協調通商的預算當時我們立法院的行政同仁邀請行政單位但行政單位都不出席這個是杯葛杯葛我們這個協商的程序並非如此\n99674\t110989\t這個本席要請教您您當時知道行政院已經不跟立法院溝通這636億元的金額和數字分配嗎 您當時知道嗎我們是在表決之後才知道的\n113840\t132816\t這個三檢我們的通山這個提案早就出來了而且我們在程序過程中行政院都不派員說明請問誰決定不要派員的以前行政院各單位都會很積極的來跟立法院這邊溝通為什麼獨獨今年沒有\n134778\t158465\t至少在院本部跟秘書長這個層級上面我們沒有被接到通知要來進行任何關於這個通商部分的任何協商事件有 立法院有通知而且立法院的這個官員也有通知各部會所以這個是第一個我們行政院不能夠蓄意杯葛\n159502\t181899\t那再來就是過去依照案例都會提出既然是通刪都會提出刪減清單為什麼這個行政院這一次也可以不回應都沒有提出而且消極不作為整個杯葛立法院的審查這個是我們整個憲政運作最壞的案例因為馬上下個會期下個月9月\n183800\t197508\t115年的總預算又要開始審查了所以本席針對這一塊這個是一開始的原因我看今天的質詢裡面我們政天才委員也有稍微提到所以這一塊本席要特別的提出來強調\n198929\t222482\t我們行政院惡意的杯葛 這個也等於是爛拳行政院沒有惡意杯葛我們也沒有接到任何被要求來協調的時間再來 往年都有通山之力但是今年這個通山數額之大過往從來沒有數額大小 這個是另一個議題我記得90年 林國90年度有一次有一個\n223903\t241964\t300多億的一個通商後來這個差減數大概是幾十億有經過一個調整雙方同意了來調整但是今天636億從來沒有做下來說這636億數這麼大行政院如何接受所以內容如何來拚這個部分就是立法院邀請行政院\n242845\t261053\t集體杯葛不來啊沒有杯葛沒有杯葛這個所以現在這個這個就螺旋門或許是有時間差的誤會但沒有杯葛我們願意來我們希望115年的總預算審查的時候不要有這種情況可以嗎可以嗎這一次我們的補救方法這個最佳預算這等一下我們來談好接著\n261892\t289345\t我們看到沒有提到這個刪減的清單立法院尊重行政院讓你636億給你一個彈性調整的空間空間跟彈性讓你可以兼顧經費的節約以及行政效能結果我們接著看我們尊重行政院給行政院空間結果行政院怎麼樣呢\n291176\t302941\t違法挪移院長您本身是學法律的本席要一一的來讓我們應該要讓全國的民眾知道首先第一個\n305871\t334765\t行政院把這636億整個轉嫁到一般性地方政府的一般性補助款但是我們在整個114年度總預算案通案刪減的這個內容裡面案由的第一行就講他是針對中央各機關及所屬通案刪減然後接著底下有十幾項所以很明顯明顯的寫出來\n336611\t359462\t這邊有嘛 對中央各機關中央各機關及所屬他通案刪減所以我不相信我們整個行政院會不知道啊他怎麼可以變成是地方性的這個一般性的地方政府的一般性補助款這第一個再第二個第二個是我們114年通過的總預算\n363442\t380188\t整個三讀通過的總預算有很多內容其中第26款來下一頁第26款第一項針對直轄市以及縣市一般性補助款是2501億1279萬照列院長\n389052\t413152\t這麼明確怎麼這636億會變成這個一般性的轉嫁到地方委員上一張圖下面有一行字是叫做從其他項目自行刪減自行調整幫你回頭看一下對其他項目但是也是在中央各機關級所屬其他項目是指中央各機關級所屬\n415137\t420632\t但是以其他項目刪減替代科目自行調整非常清楚\n425646\t451306\t對 是在他是架構在中央各機關及所屬不是直轄市及一般縣市政府他把各機關都列出來在文字上都有了沒有列 就是其他項目其他項目 刪減替代這個真的 院長您念法的不要跟我玩文字遊戲接著 接著沒有沒有 接著 接著我們下一頁沒有嗎我們那個114年通過的總預算對啊\n454108\t483828\t我們通過三讀的照列這個照列是地方直轄市及縣市一般性補助款完全照列啊當初我們在8月30號的文當中有提到如果經過審查之後有變動我們就會依這個審查的結果預調您在報告中特別提到這一點所以本席接著就請教您你說你可以依法來調整請問你依哪一條法律\n484388\t507900\t你依哪一條法律你可以動用到這個地方政府的一般性補助法好太好了來秀出來中央對直轄市及縣市政府的補助辦法院長這邊明確列出來第4條第5條第6條第12條第13條請問地方政府犯了哪一條\n509230\t533269\t沒有犯哪一條行政院也沒有犯哪一條啊也是被刪了1439億所以就說這些地方政府的一般性補助款他如果有法律補助辦法有規定他如果有執行效能低落他開源節流的績效很差還是他依法該徵收而沒有徵收的都沒有犯啊\n533729\t553477\t然後你一視同仁的這個刪減 這不是行政院的要行政院自行刪除是犯了剛剛委員說的哪一條是低落呢還是行政院自行刪除是犯了哪一條這個刪除他不是犯哪一條 他就是立法院針對通案刪減 我還沒講完要行政院準結經費\n555663\t578244\t要行政院準決經費所以你不用反問我我是在請教您您依法是依哪一個法我們現在對於地方你們把這636億轉嫁過去是完全違法違憲的這不是轉嫁過去就是我剛剛早上說的源頭的水沒有了那支流的水當然就會減少這必然的\n579445\t596458\t不是你源頭你不能全部混在一起這個刪讀通過的他有哪些能夠刪哪些不能刪的然後照列的那這樣變成行政院完全不用依法行政可以違法亂紀\n598114\t605499\t沒有財政紀律院長這個很可怕耶人家說風行草原上行下效所以白紙黑字全國民眾完全沒有被遵守\n614312\t635889\t照憲法 照預算法 不能隨意增加稅出要跟行政院徵詢 這個也沒有履行我們現在在討論 這636億不能夠轉嫁到直轄市及地方政府的一般性補助款我在跟您談這個你行政院這個作為 你是帶頭違法\n637745\t657388\t那立法院在三行政院1439議席之後也應該想到要我們通山636的時候也應該想到所以院長您講不出來沒有依法沒有依法我依這個辦法有依法所以院長只要您願意您承認這是一個錯誤的決策我覺得您的幕僚真的給您錯誤的決策沒有錯誤\n659686\t672436\t我必須講 本席必須說我們都是中華民國的國民我們就像一家人OK 今天不能夠假設真的中央政府\n673652\t696181\t行政院各部會 你錢真的怎麼樣挪不出來可以跟立法院協調啊你不能用綁架 你綁架什麼你綁架所有區立委心中的那塊軟肋最軟的那塊肉 你就像家人今天家人 你真的預算 經費怎麼樣我們可以溝通協調 溝通協調之後\n699042\t718532\t好 你要追加 我們經過溝通協調可以可是你們用了最錯誤的方法你綁架地方 綁架人民把預算刪減之後 把財化調整之後讓掌握掌櫃的人要去借錢來做這些事情你們的這個行為行為違法\n721914\t737665\t你違反財政紀律而且你跟全國民眾你這樣講根本就是欺騙民眾我們如果違反財政紀律我們不可能有那麼多的稅計剩餘我們累積了那麼多的稅計剩餘現在卻必須去舉債來編特別預算這難道是一家人嗎\n738789\t755614\t所以家人會這麼做嗎所以我這個當然這有很多我們其他可以談的但是我現在在談你們選擇這個行為這個是最卑劣的行為我們是被動的最卑劣你今天所以你院長你就承認了\n756354\t779825\t你今天你是在做政治的操作你操作你讓地方民眾而且你這些錢你故意犧牲孩子的營養午餐長輩的照護 偏鄉的救護還有教育的資源育兒津貼甚至地方的救災經費所以我們115年預算馬上要審\n784264\t811191\t我們真的希望行政院不要這樣不要違法亂紀我們立法院一切依法你們也要依法行政那當然有自愛難行的本席也認同我們可以溝通甚至你們提出來追加預算這都是正確的政治的操作所以我們今天共同來解決問題希望追加預算下禮拜能夠被大院所支持\n812151\t833226\t您立刻撥補這個636億給地方追加預算是另外一回事 你不能夠挾持地方啊這樣是錯誤的行為行政院不是印鈔機 不是魔術師啊沒有錢就是沒有錢這一些錢是造劣 你怎麼會沒有錢這一些錢是造劣 已經被刪減掉啦\n834927\t863974\t錢是在啊沒有啊那好本席現在請教你不是本席請教你我們我們這個那這樣你說錢都用光我們針對中央各機關所屬通案刪減請問通案刪減適用的中央各機關所屬他整個的經費總經費是多少你們有統計嗎本席跟行政院相關單位要到我到我要質詢都不給\n865336\t881577\t那如果你們有這麼精準的去計算 院長你應該很清楚不是稅出 而是我們針對通案刪減的對象中央所屬機關這些可以通案刪減的他的總經費是多少 303億啊\n882859\t896494\t不是你那個303億是我們已經列出來要刪我指的是他的總預算總預算有多少可以很清楚的算出來的\n897451\t915659\t那你們應該算出來啦 怎麼到現在本席藥都不給其中有的出國旅費被刪了60%有的特別費全刪 有的教育費全刪刪多少 那你們要看你今年比去年你浮邊了多少你增加了多少 你沒講 所以院長\n916559\t929984\t今年要再審預算我們只希望行政院要依法行政報告委員 今年的3兆1325億的稅出扣掉2806億的行政預算 跟去年差不多好 謝謝徐新委的質詢也謝謝卓院長備詢\n","txt":"謝謝院長 主席 我們請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢學員好卓院長好 辛苦了今天我們的專案報告\n那是針對我們這次應該說114年的預算有關這636億當初通刪沒有指定具體刪減的內容本席在這裡要還原也要釐清一些程序還有一些依法的事實首先第一個我們當初\n這個沒有具體刪減的內容本席要就過去立法院你也擔任過立法委員我們立法院審查預算的時候按照慣例我們在最後二讀三讀協商的時候\n立法院都會請行政院的各部會來協調通商的預算當時我們立法院的行政同仁邀請行政單位但行政單位都不出席這個是杯葛杯葛我們這個協商的程序並非如此\n這個本席要請教您您當時知道行政院已經不跟立法院溝通這636億元的金額和數字分配嗎 您當時知道嗎我們是在表決之後才知道的\n這個三檢我們的通山這個提案早就出來了而且我們在程序過程中行政院都不派員說明請問誰決定不要派員的以前行政院各單位都會很積極的來跟立法院這邊溝通為什麼獨獨今年沒有\n至少在院本部跟秘書長這個層級上面我們沒有被接到通知要來進行任何關於這個通商部分的任何協商事件有 立法院有通知而且立法院的這個官員也有通知各部會所以這個是第一個我們行政院不能夠蓄意杯葛\n那再來就是過去依照案例都會提出既然是通刪都會提出刪減清單為什麼這個行政院這一次也可以不回應都沒有提出而且消極不作為整個杯葛立法院的審查這個是我們整個憲政運作最壞的案例因為馬上下個會期下個月9月\n115年的總預算又要開始審查了所以本席針對這一塊這個是一開始的原因我看今天的質詢裡面我們政天才委員也有稍微提到所以這一塊本席要特別的提出來強調\n我們行政院惡意的杯葛 這個也等於是爛拳行政院沒有惡意杯葛我們也沒有接到任何被要求來協調的時間再來 往年都有通山之力但是今年這個通山數額之大過往從來沒有數額大小 這個是另一個議題我記得90年 林國90年度有一次有一個\n300多億的一個通商後來這個差減數大概是幾十億有經過一個調整雙方同意了來調整但是今天636億從來沒有做下來說這636億數這麼大行政院如何接受所以內容如何來拚這個部分就是立法院邀請行政院\n集體杯葛不來啊沒有杯葛沒有杯葛這個所以現在這個這個就螺旋門或許是有時間差的誤會但沒有杯葛我們願意來我們希望115年的總預算審查的時候不要有這種情況可以嗎可以嗎這一次我們的補救方法這個最佳預算這等一下我們來談好接著\n我們看到沒有提到這個刪減的清單立法院尊重行政院讓你636億給你一個彈性調整的空間空間跟彈性讓你可以兼顧經費的節約以及行政效能結果我們接著看我們尊重行政院給行政院空間結果行政院怎麼樣呢\n違法挪移院長您本身是學法律的本席要一一的來讓我們應該要讓全國的民眾知道首先第一個\n行政院把這636億整個轉嫁到一般性地方政府的一般性補助款但是我們在整個114年度總預算案通案刪減的這個內容裡面案由的第一行就講他是針對中央各機關及所屬通案刪減然後接著底下有十幾項所以很明顯明顯的寫出來\n這邊有嘛 對中央各機關中央各機關及所屬他通案刪減所以我不相信我們整個行政院會不知道啊他怎麼可以變成是地方性的這個一般性的地方政府的一般性補助款這第一個再第二個第二個是我們114年通過的總預算\n整個三讀通過的總預算有很多內容其中第26款來下一頁第26款第一項針對直轄市以及縣市一般性補助款是2501億1279萬照列院長\n這麼明確怎麼這636億會變成這個一般性的轉嫁到地方委員上一張圖下面有一行字是叫做從其他項目自行刪減自行調整幫你回頭看一下對其他項目但是也是在中央各機關級所屬其他項目是指中央各機關級所屬\n但是以其他項目刪減替代科目自行調整非常清楚\n對 是在他是架構在中央各機關及所屬不是直轄市及一般縣市政府他把各機關都列出來在文字上都有了沒有列 就是其他項目其他項目 刪減替代這個真的 院長您念法的不要跟我玩文字遊戲接著 接著沒有沒有 接著 接著我們下一頁沒有嗎我們那個114年通過的總預算對啊\n我們通過三讀的照列這個照列是地方直轄市及縣市一般性補助款完全照列啊當初我們在8月30號的文當中有提到如果經過審查之後有變動我們就會依這個審查的結果預調您在報告中特別提到這一點所以本席接著就請教您你說你可以依法來調整請問你依哪一條法律\n你依哪一條法律你可以動用到這個地方政府的一般性補助法好太好了來秀出來中央對直轄市及縣市政府的補助辦法院長這邊明確列出來第4條第5條第6條第12條第13條請問地方政府犯了哪一條\n沒有犯哪一條行政院也沒有犯哪一條啊也是被刪了1439億所以就說這些地方政府的一般性補助款他如果有法律補助辦法有規定他如果有執行效能低落他開源節流的績效很差還是他依法該徵收而沒有徵收的都沒有犯啊\n然後你一視同仁的這個刪減 這不是行政院的要行政院自行刪除是犯了剛剛委員說的哪一條是低落呢還是行政院自行刪除是犯了哪一條這個刪除他不是犯哪一條 他就是立法院針對通案刪減 我還沒講完要行政院準結經費\n要行政院準決經費所以你不用反問我我是在請教您您依法是依哪一個法我們現在對於地方你們把這636億轉嫁過去是完全違法違憲的這不是轉嫁過去就是我剛剛早上說的源頭的水沒有了那支流的水當然就會減少這必然的\n不是你源頭你不能全部混在一起這個刪讀通過的他有哪些能夠刪哪些不能刪的然後照列的那這樣變成行政院完全不用依法行政可以違法亂紀\n沒有財政紀律院長這個很可怕耶人家說風行草原上行下效所以白紙黑字全國民眾完全沒有被遵守\n照憲法 照預算法 不能隨意增加稅出要跟行政院徵詢 這個也沒有履行我們現在在討論 這636億不能夠轉嫁到直轄市及地方政府的一般性補助款我在跟您談這個你行政院這個作為 你是帶頭違法\n那立法院在三行政院1439議席之後也應該想到要我們通山636的時候也應該想到所以院長您講不出來沒有依法沒有依法我依這個辦法有依法所以院長只要您願意您承認這是一個錯誤的決策我覺得您的幕僚真的給您錯誤的決策沒有錯誤\n我必須講 本席必須說我們都是中華民國的國民我們就像一家人OK 今天不能夠假設真的中央政府\n行政院各部會 你錢真的怎麼樣挪不出來可以跟立法院協調啊你不能用綁架 你綁架什麼你綁架所有區立委心中的那塊軟肋最軟的那塊肉 你就像家人今天家人 你真的預算 經費怎麼樣我們可以溝通協調 溝通協調之後\n好 你要追加 我們經過溝通協調可以可是你們用了最錯誤的方法你綁架地方 綁架人民把預算刪減之後 把財化調整之後讓掌握掌櫃的人要去借錢來做這些事情你們的這個行為行為違法\n你違反財政紀律而且你跟全國民眾你這樣講根本就是欺騙民眾我們如果違反財政紀律我們不可能有那麼多的稅計剩餘我們累積了那麼多的稅計剩餘現在卻必須去舉債來編特別預算這難道是一家人嗎\n所以家人會這麼做嗎所以我這個當然這有很多我們其他可以談的但是我現在在談你們選擇這個行為這個是最卑劣的行為我們是被動的最卑劣你今天所以你院長你就承認了\n你今天你是在做政治的操作你操作你讓地方民眾而且你這些錢你故意犧牲孩子的營養午餐長輩的照護 偏鄉的救護還有教育的資源育兒津貼甚至地方的救災經費所以我們115年預算馬上要審\n我們真的希望行政院不要這樣不要違法亂紀我們立法院一切依法你們也要依法行政那當然有自愛難行的本席也認同我們可以溝通甚至你們提出來追加預算這都是正確的政治的操作所以我們今天共同來解決問題希望追加預算下禮拜能夠被大院所支持\n您立刻撥補這個636億給地方追加預算是另外一回事 你不能夠挾持地方啊這樣是錯誤的行為行政院不是印鈔機 不是魔術師啊沒有錢就是沒有錢這一些錢是造劣 你怎麼會沒有錢這一些錢是造劣 已經被刪減掉啦\n錢是在啊沒有啊那好本席現在請教你不是本席請教你我們我們這個那這樣你說錢都用光我們針對中央各機關所屬通案刪減請問通案刪減適用的中央各機關所屬他整個的經費總經費是多少你們有統計嗎本席跟行政院相關單位要到我到我要質詢都不給\n那如果你們有這麼精準的去計算 院長你應該很清楚不是稅出 而是我們針對通案刪減的對象中央所屬機關這些可以通案刪減的他的總經費是多少 303億啊\n不是你那個303億是我們已經列出來要刪我指的是他的總預算總預算有多少可以很清楚的算出來的\n那你們應該算出來啦 怎麼到現在本席藥都不給其中有的出國旅費被刪了60%有的特別費全刪 有的教育費全刪刪多少 那你們要看你今年比去年你浮邊了多少你增加了多少 你沒講 所以院長\n今年要再審預算我們只希望行政院要依法行政報告委員 今年的3兆1325億的稅出扣掉2806億的行政預算 跟去年差不多好 謝謝徐新委的質詢也謝謝卓院長備詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.191 --> 00:29.363\n謝謝院長主席我們請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢學員好卓院長好辛苦了今天我們的專案報告\n\n00:32.537 --> 00:55.343\n那是針對我們這次應該說114年的預算有關這636億當初通刪沒有指定具體刪減的內容本席在這裡要還原也要釐清一些程序還有一些依法的事實首先第一個我們當初\n\n00:57.704 --> 01:13.214\n這個沒有具體刪減的內容本席要就過去立法院你也擔任過立法委員我們立法院審查預算的時候按照慣例我們在最後二讀三讀協商的時候\n\n01:14.828 --> 01:37.879\n立法院都會請行政院的各部會來協調通商的預算當時我們立法院的行政同仁邀請行政單位但行政單位都不出席這個是杯葛杯葛我們這個協商的程序並非如此\n\n01:39.674 --> 01:50.989\n這個本席要請教您您當時知道行政院已經不跟立法院溝通這636億元的金額和數字分配嗎您當時知道嗎我們是在表決之後才知道的\n\n01:53.840 --> 02:12.816\n這個三檢我們的通山這個提案早就出來了而且我們在程序過程中行政院都不派員說明請問誰決定不要派員的以前行政院各單位都會很積極的來跟立法院這邊溝通為什麼獨獨今年沒有\n\n02:14.778 --> 02:38.465\n至少在院本部跟秘書長這個層級上面我們沒有被接到通知要來進行任何關於這個通商部分的任何協商事件有立法院有通知而且立法院的這個官員也有通知各部會所以這個是第一個我們行政院不能夠蓄意杯葛\n\n02:39.502 --> 03:01.899\n那再來就是過去依照案例都會提出既然是通刪都會提出刪減清單為什麼這個行政院這一次也可以不回應都沒有提出而且消極不作為整個杯葛立法院的審查這個是我們整個憲政運作最壞的案例因為馬上下個會期下個月9月\n\n03:03.800 --> 03:17.508\n115年的總預算又要開始審查了所以本席針對這一塊這個是一開始的原因我看今天的質詢裡面我們政天才委員也有稍微提到所以這一塊本席要特別的提出來強調\n\n03:18.929 --> 03:42.482\n我們行政院惡意的杯葛這個也等於是爛拳行政院沒有惡意杯葛我們也沒有接到任何被要求來協調的時間再來往年都有通山之力但是今年這個通山數額之大過往從來沒有數額大小這個是另一個議題我記得90年林國90年度有一次有一個\n\n03:43.903 --> 04:01.964\n300多億的一個通商後來這個差減數大概是幾十億有經過一個調整雙方同意了來調整但是今天636億從來沒有做下來說這636億數這麼大行政院如何接受所以內容如何來拚這個部分就是立法院邀請行政院\n\n04:02.845 --> 04:21.053\n集體杯葛不來啊沒有杯葛沒有杯葛這個所以現在這個這個就螺旋門或許是有時間差的誤會但沒有杯葛我們願意來我們希望115年的總預算審查的時候不要有這種情況可以嗎可以嗎這一次我們的補救方法這個最佳預算這等一下我們來談好接著\n\n04:21.892 --> 04:49.345\n我們看到沒有提到這個刪減的清單立法院尊重行政院讓你636億給你一個彈性調整的空間空間跟彈性讓你可以兼顧經費的節約以及行政效能結果我們接著看我們尊重行政院給行政院空間結果行政院怎麼樣呢\n\n04:51.176 --> 05:02.941\n違法挪移院長您本身是學法律的本席要一一的來讓我們應該要讓全國的民眾知道首先第一個\n\n05:05.871 --> 05:34.765\n行政院把這636億整個轉嫁到一般性地方政府的一般性補助款但是我們在整個114年度總預算案通案刪減的這個內容裡面案由的第一行就講他是針對中央各機關及所屬通案刪減然後接著底下有十幾項所以很明顯明顯的寫出來\n\n05:36.611 --> 05:59.462\n這邊有嘛對中央各機關中央各機關及所屬他通案刪減所以我不相信我們整個行政院會不知道啊他怎麼可以變成是地方性的這個一般性的地方政府的一般性補助款這第一個再第二個第二個是我們114年通過的總預算\n\n06:03.442 --> 06:20.188\n整個三讀通過的總預算有很多內容其中第26款來下一頁第26款第一項針對直轄市以及縣市一般性補助款是2501億1279萬照列院長\n\n06:29.052 --> 06:53.152\n這麼明確怎麼這636億會變成這個一般性的轉嫁到地方委員上一張圖下面有一行字是叫做從其他項目自行刪減自行調整幫你回頭看一下對其他項目但是也是在中央各機關級所屬其他項目是指中央各機關級所屬\n\n06:55.137 --> 07:00.632\n但是以其他項目刪減替代科目自行調整非常清楚\n\n07:05.646 --> 07:31.306\n對是在他是架構在中央各機關及所屬不是直轄市及一般縣市政府他把各機關都列出來在文字上都有了沒有列就是其他項目其他項目刪減替代這個真的院長您念法的不要跟我玩文字遊戲接著接著沒有沒有接著接著我們下一頁沒有嗎我們那個114年通過的總預算對啊\n\n07:34.108 --> 08:03.828\n我們通過三讀的照列這個照列是地方直轄市及縣市一般性補助款完全照列啊當初我們在8月30號的文當中有提到如果經過審查之後有變動我們就會依這個審查的結果預調您在報告中特別提到這一點所以本席接著就請教您你說你可以依法來調整請問你依哪一條法律\n\n08:04.388 --> 08:27.900\n你依哪一條法律你可以動用到這個地方政府的一般性補助法好太好了來秀出來中央對直轄市及縣市政府的補助辦法院長這邊明確列出來第4條第5條第6條第12條第13條請問地方政府犯了哪一條\n\n08:29.230 --> 08:53.269\n沒有犯哪一條行政院也沒有犯哪一條啊也是被刪了1439億所以就說這些地方政府的一般性補助款他如果有法律補助辦法有規定他如果有執行效能低落他開源節流的績效很差還是他依法該徵收而沒有徵收的都沒有犯啊\n\n08:53.729 --> 09:13.477\n然後你一視同仁的這個刪減這不是行政院的要行政院自行刪除是犯了剛剛委員說的哪一條是低落呢還是行政院自行刪除是犯了哪一條這個刪除他不是犯哪一條他就是立法院針對通案刪減我還沒講完要行政院準結經費\n\n09:15.663 --> 09:38.244\n要行政院準決經費所以你不用反問我我是在請教您您依法是依哪一個法我們現在對於地方你們把這636億轉嫁過去是完全違法違憲的這不是轉嫁過去就是我剛剛早上說的源頭的水沒有了那支流的水當然就會減少這必然的\n\n09:39.445 --> 09:56.458\n不是你源頭你不能全部混在一起這個刪讀通過的他有哪些能夠刪哪些不能刪的然後照列的那這樣變成行政院完全不用依法行政可以違法亂紀\n\n09:58.114 --> 10:05.499\n沒有財政紀律院長這個很可怕耶人家說風行草原上行下效所以白紙黑字全國民眾完全沒有被遵守\n\n10:14.312 --> 10:35.889\n照憲法照預算法不能隨意增加稅出要跟行政院徵詢這個也沒有履行我們現在在討論這636億不能夠轉嫁到直轄市及地方政府的一般性補助款我在跟您談這個你行政院這個作為你是帶頭違法\n\n10:37.745 --> 10:57.388\n那立法院在三行政院1439議席之後也應該想到要我們通山636的時候也應該想到所以院長您講不出來沒有依法沒有依法我依這個辦法有依法所以院長只要您願意您承認這是一個錯誤的決策我覺得您的幕僚真的給您錯誤的決策沒有錯誤\n\n10:59.686 --> 11:12.436\n我必須講本席必須說我們都是中華民國的國民我們就像一家人OK今天不能夠假設真的中央政府\n\n11:13.652 --> 11:36.181\n行政院各部會你錢真的怎麼樣挪不出來可以跟立法院協調啊你不能用綁架你綁架什麼你綁架所有區立委心中的那塊軟肋最軟的那塊肉你就像家人今天家人你真的預算經費怎麼樣我們可以溝通協調溝通協調之後\n\n11:39.042 --> 11:58.532\n好你要追加我們經過溝通協調可以可是你們用了最錯誤的方法你綁架地方綁架人民把預算刪減之後把財化調整之後讓掌握掌櫃的人要去借錢來做這些事情你們的這個行為行為違法\n\n12:01.914 --> 12:17.665\n你違反財政紀律而且你跟全國民眾你這樣講根本就是欺騙民眾我們如果違反財政紀律我們不可能有那麼多的稅計剩餘我們累積了那麼多的稅計剩餘現在卻必須去舉債來編特別預算這難道是一家人嗎\n\n12:18.789 --> 12:35.614\n所以家人會這麼做嗎所以我這個當然這有很多我們其他可以談的但是我現在在談你們選擇這個行為這個是最卑劣的行為我們是被動的最卑劣你今天所以你院長你就承認了\n\n12:36.354 --> 12:59.825\n你今天你是在做政治的操作你操作你讓地方民眾而且你這些錢你故意犧牲孩子的營養午餐長輩的照護偏鄉的救護還有教育的資源育兒津貼甚至地方的救災經費所以我們115年預算馬上要審\n\n13:04.264 --> 13:31.191\n我們真的希望行政院不要這樣不要違法亂紀我們立法院一切依法你們也要依法行政那當然有自愛難行的本席也認同我們可以溝通甚至你們提出來追加預算這都是正確的政治的操作所以我們今天共同來解決問題希望追加預算下禮拜能夠被大院所支持\n\n13:32.151 --> 13:53.226\n您立刻撥補這個636億給地方追加預算是另外一回事你不能夠挾持地方啊這樣是錯誤的行為行政院不是印鈔機不是魔術師啊沒有錢就是沒有錢這一些錢是造劣你怎麼會沒有錢這一些錢是造劣已經被刪減掉啦\n\n13:54.927 --> 14:23.974\n錢是在啊沒有啊那好本席現在請教你不是本席請教你我們我們這個那這樣你說錢都用光我們針對中央各機關所屬通案刪減請問通案刪減適用的中央各機關所屬他整個的經費總經費是多少你們有統計嗎本席跟行政院相關單位要到我到我要質詢都不給\n\n14:25.336 --> 14:41.577\n那如果你們有這麼精準的去計算院長你應該很清楚不是稅出而是我們針對通案刪減的對象中央所屬機關這些可以通案刪減的他的總經費是多少303億啊\n\n14:42.859 --> 14:56.494\n不是你那個303億是我們已經列出來要刪我指的是他的總預算總預算有多少可以很清楚的算出來的\n\n14:57.451 --> 15:15.659\n那你們應該算出來啦怎麼到現在本席藥都不給其中有的出國旅費被刪了60%有的特別費全刪有的教育費全刪刪多少那你們要看你今年比去年你浮邊了多少你增加了多少你沒講所以院長\n\n15:16.559 --> 15:29.984\n今年要再審預算我們只希望行政院要依法行政報告委員今年的3兆1325億的稅出扣掉2806億的行政預算跟去年差不多好謝謝徐新委的質詢也謝謝卓院長備詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.191,"end":29.363,"text":"謝謝院長 主席 我們請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢學員好卓院長好 辛苦了今天我們的專案報告"},{"start":32.537,"end":55.343,"text":"那是針對我們這次應該說114年的預算有關這636億當初通刪沒有指定具體刪減的內容本席在這裡要還原也要釐清一些程序還有一些依法的事實首先第一個我們當初"},{"start":57.704,"end":73.214,"text":"這個沒有具體刪減的內容本席要就過去立法院你也擔任過立法委員我們立法院審查預算的時候按照慣例我們在最後二讀三讀協商的時候"},{"start":74.828,"end":97.879,"text":"立法院都會請行政院的各部會來協調通商的預算當時我們立法院的行政同仁邀請行政單位但行政單位都不出席這個是杯葛杯葛我們這個協商的程序並非如此"},{"start":99.674,"end":110.989,"text":"這個本席要請教您您當時知道行政院已經不跟立法院溝通這636億元的金額和數字分配嗎 您當時知道嗎我們是在表決之後才知道的"},{"start":113.84,"end":132.816,"text":"這個三檢我們的通山這個提案早就出來了而且我們在程序過程中行政院都不派員說明請問誰決定不要派員的以前行政院各單位都會很積極的來跟立法院這邊溝通為什麼獨獨今年沒有"},{"start":134.778,"end":158.465,"text":"至少在院本部跟秘書長這個層級上面我們沒有被接到通知要來進行任何關於這個通商部分的任何協商事件有 立法院有通知而且立法院的這個官員也有通知各部會所以這個是第一個我們行政院不能夠蓄意杯葛"},{"start":159.502,"end":181.899,"text":"那再來就是過去依照案例都會提出既然是通刪都會提出刪減清單為什麼這個行政院這一次也可以不回應都沒有提出而且消極不作為整個杯葛立法院的審查這個是我們整個憲政運作最壞的案例因為馬上下個會期下個月9月"},{"start":183.8,"end":197.508,"text":"115年的總預算又要開始審查了所以本席針對這一塊這個是一開始的原因我看今天的質詢裡面我們政天才委員也有稍微提到所以這一塊本席要特別的提出來強調"},{"start":198.929,"end":222.482,"text":"我們行政院惡意的杯葛 這個也等於是爛拳行政院沒有惡意杯葛我們也沒有接到任何被要求來協調的時間再來 往年都有通山之力但是今年這個通山數額之大過往從來沒有數額大小 這個是另一個議題我記得90年 林國90年度有一次有一個"},{"start":223.903,"end":241.964,"text":"300多億的一個通商後來這個差減數大概是幾十億有經過一個調整雙方同意了來調整但是今天636億從來沒有做下來說這636億數這麼大行政院如何接受所以內容如何來拚這個部分就是立法院邀請行政院"},{"start":242.845,"end":261.053,"text":"集體杯葛不來啊沒有杯葛沒有杯葛這個所以現在這個這個就螺旋門或許是有時間差的誤會但沒有杯葛我們願意來我們希望115年的總預算審查的時候不要有這種情況可以嗎可以嗎這一次我們的補救方法這個最佳預算這等一下我們來談好接著"},{"start":261.892,"end":289.345,"text":"我們看到沒有提到這個刪減的清單立法院尊重行政院讓你636億給你一個彈性調整的空間空間跟彈性讓你可以兼顧經費的節約以及行政效能結果我們接著看我們尊重行政院給行政院空間結果行政院怎麼樣呢"},{"start":291.176,"end":302.941,"text":"違法挪移院長您本身是學法律的本席要一一的來讓我們應該要讓全國的民眾知道首先第一個"},{"start":305.871,"end":334.765,"text":"行政院把這636億整個轉嫁到一般性地方政府的一般性補助款但是我們在整個114年度總預算案通案刪減的這個內容裡面案由的第一行就講他是針對中央各機關及所屬通案刪減然後接著底下有十幾項所以很明顯明顯的寫出來"},{"start":336.611,"end":359.462,"text":"這邊有嘛 對中央各機關中央各機關及所屬他通案刪減所以我不相信我們整個行政院會不知道啊他怎麼可以變成是地方性的這個一般性的地方政府的一般性補助款這第一個再第二個第二個是我們114年通過的總預算"},{"start":363.442,"end":380.188,"text":"整個三讀通過的總預算有很多內容其中第26款來下一頁第26款第一項針對直轄市以及縣市一般性補助款是2501億1279萬照列院長"},{"start":389.052,"end":413.152,"text":"這麼明確怎麼這636億會變成這個一般性的轉嫁到地方委員上一張圖下面有一行字是叫做從其他項目自行刪減自行調整幫你回頭看一下對其他項目但是也是在中央各機關級所屬其他項目是指中央各機關級所屬"},{"start":415.137,"end":420.632,"text":"但是以其他項目刪減替代科目自行調整非常清楚"},{"start":425.646,"end":451.306,"text":"對 是在他是架構在中央各機關及所屬不是直轄市及一般縣市政府他把各機關都列出來在文字上都有了沒有列 就是其他項目其他項目 刪減替代這個真的 院長您念法的不要跟我玩文字遊戲接著 接著沒有沒有 接著 接著我們下一頁沒有嗎我們那個114年通過的總預算對啊"},{"start":454.108,"end":483.828,"text":"我們通過三讀的照列這個照列是地方直轄市及縣市一般性補助款完全照列啊當初我們在8月30號的文當中有提到如果經過審查之後有變動我們就會依這個審查的結果預調您在報告中特別提到這一點所以本席接著就請教您你說你可以依法來調整請問你依哪一條法律"},{"start":484.388,"end":507.9,"text":"你依哪一條法律你可以動用到這個地方政府的一般性補助法好太好了來秀出來中央對直轄市及縣市政府的補助辦法院長這邊明確列出來第4條第5條第6條第12條第13條請問地方政府犯了哪一條"},{"start":509.23,"end":533.269,"text":"沒有犯哪一條行政院也沒有犯哪一條啊也是被刪了1439億所以就說這些地方政府的一般性補助款他如果有法律補助辦法有規定他如果有執行效能低落他開源節流的績效很差還是他依法該徵收而沒有徵收的都沒有犯啊"},{"start":533.729,"end":553.477,"text":"然後你一視同仁的這個刪減 這不是行政院的要行政院自行刪除是犯了剛剛委員說的哪一條是低落呢還是行政院自行刪除是犯了哪一條這個刪除他不是犯哪一條 他就是立法院針對通案刪減 我還沒講完要行政院準結經費"},{"start":555.663,"end":578.244,"text":"要行政院準決經費所以你不用反問我我是在請教您您依法是依哪一個法我們現在對於地方你們把這636億轉嫁過去是完全違法違憲的這不是轉嫁過去就是我剛剛早上說的源頭的水沒有了那支流的水當然就會減少這必然的"},{"start":579.445,"end":596.458,"text":"不是你源頭你不能全部混在一起這個刪讀通過的他有哪些能夠刪哪些不能刪的然後照列的那這樣變成行政院完全不用依法行政可以違法亂紀"},{"start":598.114,"end":605.499,"text":"沒有財政紀律院長這個很可怕耶人家說風行草原上行下效所以白紙黑字全國民眾完全沒有被遵守"},{"start":614.312,"end":635.889,"text":"照憲法 照預算法 不能隨意增加稅出要跟行政院徵詢 這個也沒有履行我們現在在討論 這636億不能夠轉嫁到直轄市及地方政府的一般性補助款我在跟您談這個你行政院這個作為 你是帶頭違法"},{"start":637.745,"end":657.388,"text":"那立法院在三行政院1439議席之後也應該想到要我們通山636的時候也應該想到所以院長您講不出來沒有依法沒有依法我依這個辦法有依法所以院長只要您願意您承認這是一個錯誤的決策我覺得您的幕僚真的給您錯誤的決策沒有錯誤"},{"start":659.686,"end":672.436,"text":"我必須講 本席必須說我們都是中華民國的國民我們就像一家人OK 今天不能夠假設真的中央政府"},{"start":673.652,"end":696.181,"text":"行政院各部會 你錢真的怎麼樣挪不出來可以跟立法院協調啊你不能用綁架 你綁架什麼你綁架所有區立委心中的那塊軟肋最軟的那塊肉 你就像家人今天家人 你真的預算 經費怎麼樣我們可以溝通協調 溝通協調之後"},{"start":699.042,"end":718.532,"text":"好 你要追加 我們經過溝通協調可以可是你們用了最錯誤的方法你綁架地方 綁架人民把預算刪減之後 把財化調整之後讓掌握掌櫃的人要去借錢來做這些事情你們的這個行為行為違法"},{"start":721.914,"end":737.665,"text":"你違反財政紀律而且你跟全國民眾你這樣講根本就是欺騙民眾我們如果違反財政紀律我們不可能有那麼多的稅計剩餘我們累積了那麼多的稅計剩餘現在卻必須去舉債來編特別預算這難道是一家人嗎"},{"start":738.789,"end":755.614,"text":"所以家人會這麼做嗎所以我這個當然這有很多我們其他可以談的但是我現在在談你們選擇這個行為這個是最卑劣的行為我們是被動的最卑劣你今天所以你院長你就承認了"},{"start":756.354,"end":779.825,"text":"你今天你是在做政治的操作你操作你讓地方民眾而且你這些錢你故意犧牲孩子的營養午餐長輩的照護 偏鄉的救護還有教育的資源育兒津貼甚至地方的救災經費所以我們115年預算馬上要審"},{"start":784.264,"end":811.191,"text":"我們真的希望行政院不要這樣不要違法亂紀我們立法院一切依法你們也要依法行政那當然有自愛難行的本席也認同我們可以溝通甚至你們提出來追加預算這都是正確的政治的操作所以我們今天共同來解決問題希望追加預算下禮拜能夠被大院所支持"},{"start":812.151,"end":833.226,"text":"您立刻撥補這個636億給地方追加預算是另外一回事 你不能夠挾持地方啊這樣是錯誤的行為行政院不是印鈔機 不是魔術師啊沒有錢就是沒有錢這一些錢是造劣 你怎麼會沒有錢這一些錢是造劣 已經被刪減掉啦"},{"start":834.927,"end":863.974,"text":"錢是在啊沒有啊那好本席現在請教你不是本席請教你我們我們這個那這樣你說錢都用光我們針對中央各機關所屬通案刪減請問通案刪減適用的中央各機關所屬他整個的經費總經費是多少你們有統計嗎本席跟行政院相關單位要到我到我要質詢都不給"},{"start":865.336,"end":881.577,"text":"那如果你們有這麼精準的去計算 院長你應該很清楚不是稅出 而是我們針對通案刪減的對象中央所屬機關這些可以通案刪減的他的總經費是多少 303億啊"},{"start":882.859,"end":896.494,"text":"不是你那個303億是我們已經列出來要刪我指的是他的總預算總預算有多少可以很清楚的算出來的"},{"start":897.451,"end":915.659,"text":"那你們應該算出來啦 怎麼到現在本席藥都不給其中有的出國旅費被刪了60%有的特別費全刪 有的教育費全刪刪多少 那你們要看你今年比去年你浮邊了多少你增加了多少 你沒講 所以院長"},{"start":916.559,"end":929.984,"text":"今年要再審預算我們只希望行政院要依法行政報告委員 今年的3兆1325億的稅出扣掉2806億的行政預算 跟去年差不多好 謝謝徐新委的質詢也謝謝卓院長備詢"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":368,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（16時17分）謝謝院長、主席，我們請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：卓院長好，辛苦了。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["徐委員欣瑩：今天我們的專案報告是針對114年預算中，有關這636億、當初通刪沒有指定具體刪減的內容，本席在這裡要還原也要釐清一些程序，還有一些依法的事實。第一個，我們當初沒有指定具體刪減的內容，就過去立法院的情況，你也擔任過立法委員，我們立法院審查預算的時候，按照慣例，我們在最後二讀、三讀協商的時候，立法院都會請行政院各部會來協調通刪的預算，而當時我們立法院行政同仁邀請了行政單位，但行政單位都不出席，這個是在杯葛我們協商的程序。"],["卓院長榮泰：並非如此。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席要請教您，您當時知道行政院已經不跟立法院溝通這636億元的金額和數字分配嗎？您當時知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是在表決之後才知道的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們的通刪提案早就出來了，而且在這個程序過程中，行政院都不派員說明，請問誰決定不要派員的？以前行政院各單位都會很積極的來跟立法院這邊溝通，為什麼獨獨今年沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：至少在院本部跟秘書長這個層級上面，我們沒有接到通知要來進行任何關於這個通刪部分的任何協商的時間。"],["徐委員欣瑩：有，立法院有通知，而且立法院的官員也有通知各部會，這是第一個，我們行政院不能夠蓄意杯葛。","再來，過去依照慣例，既然是通刪，都會提出刪減清單，為什麼行政院這一次可以不回應？都沒有提出，而且消極不作為，杯葛立法院的審查，這是我們整個憲政運作最壞的案例，下個月9月進入下個會期，馬上要開始審查115年的總預算，所以本席針對這一塊提出來，因為這個是一開始的原因，我看在今天的質詢裡面鄭天財委員也有稍微提到，所以本席要特別提出這一塊並強調，行政院惡意的杯葛，這個也等於是濫權。"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟委員報告，行政院沒有惡意杯葛，我們也沒有接到任何要求在什麼時間來協調的通知。再來，往年都有通刪之例，但是今年這個通刪數額之大，在過往從來沒有，而且……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，數額大小是另一個議題。"],["卓院長榮泰：我記得民國90年度是通刪三百多億，後來這個差減數大概是幾十億，有經過一個調整，雙方都同意調整。但是今天對636億從來沒有坐下來談這筆636億的數額這麼大，行政院如何接受以及內容如何來……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以這個部分就是立法院邀請了，可是行政院集體杯葛都不來啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有杯葛，這當中或許是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在這個就是羅生門。"],["卓院長榮泰：或許是有時間差的誤會，但是沒有杯葛，我們願意來談。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們希望在審查115年總預算的時候不要有這種情況，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我更期待這一次我們的補救方法，也就是這個追加預算，大家能夠支持。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這個等一下我們來談。接著，我們看到你沒有提出刪減的清單，那立法院尊重行政院，讓你對這636億有一個彈性調整的空間……"],["卓院長榮泰：實在沒有辦法吸納。"],["徐委員欣瑩：有空間跟彈性，讓你可以兼顧經費的節約以及行政效能，結果呢？我們接著看，我們尊重行政院，給行政院空間，結果行政院怎麼樣呢？就是違法挪移。院長，您本身是學法律的，我們應該要讓全國的民眾知道，首先，第一個，行政院把這636億整個轉嫁到地方政府的一般性補助款，但是我們在整個114年度總預算案通案刪減的內容裡面，在案由的第一行就講了，這是針對中央各機關及所屬通案刪減，然後接著底下有十幾項，所以有很明顯的寫出來，對不對？是中央各機關及所屬通案刪減，我不相信整個行政院會不知道，它怎麼可以變成地方政府的一般性補助款？這是第一個。","第二個，我們三讀通過的整個114年總預算有很多內容，其中第26款第1項直轄市及縣市一般性補助款2,501億1,279萬元是照列，院長，這是這麼的明確，怎麼這636億會變成轉嫁到地方呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，在上一張圖下面有一行字是從其他項目自行刪減、自行調整，不然你回頭看一下。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，是其他項目，但是也是在中央各機關及所屬啊！其他項目是指中央各機關及所屬。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是「以其他項目刪減替代，科目自行調整」，非常的清楚。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，它是架構在中央各機關及所屬，不是直轄市及一般縣市政府。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，它把各機關都列出來，在文字上都有了，沒有列的就是其他項目，其他項目刪減替代。"],["徐委員欣瑩：院長，您是唸法的，不要跟我玩文字遊戲。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我想我們今天不要……"],["徐委員欣瑩：接著，我們看下一頁，我們三讀通過的114年總預算是照列，這個照列是直轄市及縣市一般性補助款完全照列啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：當初我們在8月30號的文當中有提到，如果經過審查之後有變動，我們就會依這個審查的結果予以調整。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK！你在報告中有特別提到這點，所以本席接著就要請教你，你說你可以依法來調整，請問你依哪一條法律？你依哪一條法律可以動用到地方政府的一般性補助？"],["卓院長榮泰：依我們的補助辦法。"],["徐委員欣瑩：太好了！來，秀出來，中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府的補助辦法，院長，這邊明確列出來第四條、第五條、第六條、第十二條、第十三條，請問地方政府犯了哪一條？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有犯哪一條，行政院也沒有犯哪一條，也是被刪了1,439億。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以這些地方政府的一般性補助款……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有犯哪一條，我們只是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這個是法律，補助辦法有規定，它如果有執行效能低落、開源節流的績效很差，還是有依法該徵收而沒有徵收的，都沒有犯啊！然後你一視同仁地刪減，這不是行政院的……"],["卓院長榮泰：要行政院自行刪除是犯了剛剛委員說的哪一條？是低落呢？還是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：行政院自行刪除……"],["卓院長榮泰：是犯了哪一條？"],["徐委員欣瑩：這個刪除不是犯了哪一條，這就是立法院針對通案刪減……"],["卓院長榮泰：對啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：我還沒講完，要行政院撙節經費，所以你不用反問我，我是在請教你，你依法是依哪一個法？"],["卓院長榮泰：依照補助辦法。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在對於地方，你們把這636億轉嫁過去是完全違法、違憲。"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是轉嫁過去，就是我剛剛早上說的，源頭的水沒有了，支流的水當然就會減少，這必然的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是！你的源頭不能全部混在一起，這個是三讀通過的，有哪些能夠刪、哪些不能刪的，還有照列的，這樣變成行政院完全不用依法行政，可以違法亂紀啊？沒有財政紀律……"],["卓院長榮泰：在審查預算的過程當中，我們一直要求……"],["徐委員欣瑩：院長，這個很可怕耶！人家說風行草偃，上行下效，所以白紙黑字全國民眾……"],["卓院長榮泰：審查預算過程當中，我們要求照憲法、照預算法的規定，完全沒有被遵守，照憲法、照預算法不能隨意增加歲出，要跟行政院徵詢，這個也沒有履行。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們現在在討論這636億不能夠轉嫁到直轄市及地方政府的一般性補助款，我在跟你談這個，行政院這個作為是帶頭違法耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：立法院在刪行政院1,439億的時候也應該想到，要我們通刪636億的時候也應該想到。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以院長，你講不出來、沒有依法……"],["卓院長榮泰：我依這個辦法，有依法啊！依這個辦法。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以院長，只要你願意承認這是一個錯誤的決策，我覺得你的幕僚真的給你錯誤的決策。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有錯誤，我們今天在補救事實……"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席必須說我們都是中華民國的國民，我們就像一家人，OK！假設中央政府、行政院各部會的錢真的怎麼樣都挪不出來，可以跟立法院協調，你不能用綁架，你綁架所有區域立委心中的那塊軟肋、最軟的那塊肉。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，對不起，我們如果……"],["徐委員欣瑩：就像家人，你真的預算、經費怎麼樣，我們可以溝通協調……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們如果是一家人……"],["徐委員欣瑩：溝通協調之後，你要追加，我們真的經過溝通可以，可是你們用了最錯誤的方法，你綁架地方、綁架人民，而且……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，如果是一家人，你們怎麼忍心把預算刪減之後，把財劃法調整之後，讓這個掌櫃的人要去借錢來做這些事情呢？我們原來是有歲計賸餘的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們的這個行為違法，你違反財政紀律，而且你跟全國民眾這樣講根本就是欺騙民眾。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們如果違反財政紀律，我們不可能有那麼多的歲計賸餘，我們累積了那麼多的歲計賸餘，現在卻必須去舉債來編特別預算，這難道是一家人嗎？一家人會這麼做嗎？"],["徐委員欣瑩：當然這有很多我們其他可以談的，但是我現在在談你們選擇這個行為，這個是最卑劣的行為。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是被動的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以院長，你就承認了，今天你是在做政治的操作……"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有承認啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：你讓地方民眾，而且這些錢……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在做財政紀律的嚴守……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你故意犧牲孩子的營養午餐、長輩的照護、偏鄉的救護，還有教育的資源、育兒津貼，甚至是地方的救災經費，115年預算馬上要審了，我們真的希望行政院不要這樣……"],["卓院長榮泰：我真的希望不要再像今年這樣的審法……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不要違法亂紀，我們立法院一切依法，你們也要依法行政。"],["卓院長榮泰：絕對依法行政。"],["徐委員欣瑩：當然有窒礙難行的地方，本席也認同，我們可以溝通，甚至你們提出追加預算，這都是正確的政治操作。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們今天共同來解決問題，希望追加預算，下禮拜能夠被大院所支持。"],["徐委員欣瑩：院長，您立刻撥補636億給地方，追加預算是另外一回事，你不能夠挾持地方啊！這樣是錯誤的行為。"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院不是印鈔機，不是魔術師，沒有錢就是沒有錢。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這一些錢是照列，你怎麼會沒有錢？這一些錢是照列！"],["卓院長榮泰：已經被刪減掉了，錢是在啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有啊！好，本席現在請教你……"],["卓院長榮泰：現在歲計賸餘也好，都用光了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你說錢都用光，我們針對中央各機關及所屬通案刪減，請問通案刪減適用的中央各機關及所屬整個總經費是多少，你們有統計嗎？本席跟行政院相關單位要資料，到我要質詢都不給，如果你們有這麼精準地計算，院長，你應該很清楚喔。"],["卓院長榮泰：歲出的數字嗎？"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是歲出，而是我們針對通案刪減的對象，中央所屬機關這些可以通案刪減的總經費是多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：303億啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，303億是我們已經列出來要刪的……"],["卓院長榮泰：對，其他的無法刪啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：我指的是它的總預算，總預算有多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：總預算喔。"],["徐委員欣瑩：總預算有多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：這可以很清楚地算出來。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那你們應該算出來啦！怎麼到現在本席要資料都不給？"],["卓院長榮泰：其中有的出國旅費被刪60%，有的特別費全刪，有的教育費也全刪。"],["徐委員欣瑩：刪多少？你們要看今年比去年又浮編了多少、增加了多少，但你沒講。所以院長，今年要再審預算，我們只希望行政院依法行政，不要違反財政紀律。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，今年3兆1,325億的歲出，扣掉2,806億的新增預算，跟去年差不多……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不需要顧左右而言他。"],["卓院長榮泰：再扣掉立法院所刪的2,076億，我們只有去年的92%。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來我們請許宇甄委員質詢，羅智強委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":292,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-25","speakers":["韓國瑜","陳昭姿","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","黃國昌","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱鎮軍","陳亭妃","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","許宇甄","張雅琳","賴惠員","王正旭","羅智強","陳培瑜","賴士葆"],"page_start":213,"meetingDate":["2025-08-19"],"gazette_id":"1147101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147101_00004","1147101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第25次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「全額撥付114年度對地方政府之一般性補助款及原住民族地區基本設施維持費\n等相關事宜」專案報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147101_00005"}}}