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{\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 53.036, \"end\": 53.176, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 53.176, \"end\": 53.356, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 53.356, \"end\": 53.596, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 53.596, \"end\": 53.616, \"score\": 0.969}]}, {\"start\": 54.056, \"end\": 74.171, \"text\": \"目的就是要讓立法院在審查預算的時候必須要確認哪些支出是必須編列哪些是不得刪減的強制性項目所以請院長看一下第一項就是一般性補助款而在經過立法院的審議三讀通過的我們114年度的總預算總統也在3月21號正式公佈\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 54.056, \"end\": 54.216, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 54.216, \"end\": 54.336, \"score\": 0.696}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 54.336, \"end\": 54.456, \"score\": 0.788}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 54.456, \"end\": 54.657, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 54.657, \"end\": 54.857, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 54.857, \"end\": 55.017, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 55.017, \"end\": 55.137, \"score\": 0.999}, 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103.216, \"end\": 103.397, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 103.397, \"end\": 103.537, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 103.537, \"end\": 104.017, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"總\"}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 104.017, \"end\": 104.257, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 104.257, \"end\": 104.397, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 104.397, \"end\": 104.417, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"複\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}]}, {\"start\": 105.458, \"end\": 134.901, \"text\": \"而是提出追加減預算的方式來解決紛擾但是呢行政院還是一樣在2月27號提出復議那接著在5月16號韓文地方政府砍掉一般性的補助款636億元那8月14號才提出最佳預算所以這一來一往耽擱了半年如果當時早聽韓院長的一個建議的話也不會讓這半年來讓地方政府苦不堪言那我想\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 105.458, \"end\": 105.598, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 105.598, \"end\": 105.778, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 105.778, \"end\": 105.978, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 105.978, \"end\": 106.359, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": 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{\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 685.553, \"end\": 686.033, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 686.033, \"end\": 686.253, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 686.253, \"end\": 686.374, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 686.374, \"end\": 686.414, \"score\": 0.512}, {\"word\": \"影\", \"start\": 686.414, \"end\": 686.434, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"響\"}]}, {\"start\": 687.796, \"end\": 693.754, \"text\": \"院長 當時在6月4號這個曾元華秘書長就已經有提醒我們了\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 687.796, \"end\": 689.381, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 689.381, \"end\": 689.963, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 689.963, \"end\": 691.407, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"號\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"曾\", \"start\": 691.407, \"end\": 691.527, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"元\", 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\"end\": 709.067, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 709.067, \"end\": 709.628, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 709.628, \"end\": 709.768, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 709.768, \"end\": 709.928, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 709.928, \"end\": 710.088, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 710.088, \"end\": 710.248, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 710.248, \"end\": 710.609, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 710.609, \"end\": 711.249, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"執\"}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 711.249, \"end\": 711.409, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 711.409, \"end\": 711.67, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"扣\", \"start\": 711.67, \"end\": 711.69, \"score\": 0.239}, {\"word\": \"扣\", \"start\": 711.69, \"end\": 712.19, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 712.19, \"end\": 712.61, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": 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\"score\": 0.194}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 924.249, \"end\": 924.35, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 924.35, \"end\": 924.49, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 924.49, \"end\": 924.611, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"決\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 924.611, \"end\": 924.691, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"徐\", \"start\": 924.691, \"end\": 924.811, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 924.811, \"end\": 924.932, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 924.932, \"end\": 925.093, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 925.093, \"end\": 926.358, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"諮\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 926.358, \"end\": 926.719, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"卓\", \"start\": 926.719, \"end\": 926.88, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 926.88, \"end\": 926.9, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"備\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,129 --> 00:00:09,332\n請準備謝謝院長我們請卓榮泰院長備詢麻煩再請卓院長備詢區委員好\n\n2\n00:00:21,287 --> 00:00:26,291\n主委好您辛苦了我想請教一下卓院長行政院在113年8月30號有發函給立法院就是針對\n\n3\n00:00:33,291 --> 00:00:53,616\n貴院審查的111年度中央政府總預算案所做的決議並附上114年度的法律支出的明細表其中清楚的列出一般性補助款屬於法律義務支出依法必須編列不得刪減那這是行政院送給我們立法院的公文\n\n4\n00:00:54,056 --> 00:01:14,171\n目的就是要讓立法院在審查預算的時候必須要確認哪些支出是必須編列哪些是不得刪減的強制性項目所以請院長看一下第一項就是一般性補助款而在經過立法院的審議三讀通過的我們114年度的總預算總統也在3月21號正式公佈\n\n5\n00:01:15,232 --> 00:01:29,586\n結果行政院卻以統三為由自行砍掉636億元相當於27.3的比例這不僅自打嘴巴也更嚴重的違反預算法定原則那我想院長您在\n\n6\n00:01:31,007 --> 00:01:44,417\n賴清德總統在2月10號的時候有在總統府邀集五院進行國政的會商那當時韓國瑜院長就有當場提出希望行政院不要對114年度的總預算提出複議\n\n7\n00:01:45,458 --> 00:02:14,901\n而是提出追加減預算的方式來解決紛擾但是呢行政院還是一樣在2月27號提出復議那接著在5月16號韓文地方政府砍掉一般性的補助款636億元那8月14號才提出最佳預算所以這一來一往耽擱了半年如果當時早聽韓院長的一個建議的話也不會讓這半年來讓地方政府苦不堪言那我想\n\n8\n00:02:15,621 --> 00:02:27,806\n院長這次在行政院發給立法院的這個公文有明確的提出一般性的補助款是處於法定義務的支出那請問院長為什麼還要違法刪除呢\n\n9\n00:02:29,014 --> 00:02:54,881\n第一個行政院沒有違法刪除在總統召開這個院紀的協調之後我們跟韓院長也有其他若干的接觸我們所提出的方式雙方也都曾經有認同但是後來沒有辦法繼續的執行下去院長您剛剛說沒有違法可是你們明明就違反了立法院的決議這就是違法怎麼會沒有違法刪除呢因為立法院要求行政院自行刪除\n\n10\n00:02:55,962 --> 00:03:13,759\n我們是給你彈性去刪除因為很多的預算居然講我們刪了你覺得是不可以刪的所以這是一個彈性的做法那如果做不到的話其實我想其實主計總署也可以來做出一些調整跟方式那當然我想這個部分院長我現在請您看一下\n\n11\n00:03:14,460 --> 00:03:36,333\n在民進黨我只說兩句話不是不可以刪是刪的過程當中針對特定機關巨額龐大而且要我們自行刪除這確實有困難確實有很多地方其實可以刪的需要花一點時間但是事實上也經過半年哪裡可以刪哪裡不可以刪其實我想主席總署最清楚那你可以看一下民進黨對於法律義務支出的看法在114\n\n12\n00:03:37,834 --> 00:03:53,020\n4年1月21號的民進黨的臉書有寫2501億的一般性補助款都是行政和立法部門不得變動的中央法定支出那院長您以前也擔任過民進黨的主席那民進黨的臉書您認為他是亂寫的嗎\n\n13\n00:03:57,705 --> 00:04:23,647\n我想民進黨的臉書這樣的寫法你也不認為它是錯的嗎所以到底是現在的民進黨在打臉您卓榮泰院長還是您卓榮泰院長在打臉民進黨的主席賴清德呢法律義務支出這個的解釋是當行政院基於要編酬這個預算的過程當中我想連民進黨都特別提到了這2500億是一般性補助款必須是法律義務支出不得刪減\n\n14\n00:04:24,528 --> 00:04:53,269\n那所謂不得刪減就是一塊都不能刪啊還有不得刪減是某比例的刪減那樣是不正確的我們是著於補助我們對補助的定額跟百分比都可以處理法定義務就是既然叫做不得刪減不得就是指一塊錢都不能刪不是說我刪掉27.3%而已我沒有刪掉全部我覺得那是錯誤的曲解那當然我們針對現在正在編列115年度的中央政府的總預算嘛\n\n15\n00:04:53,729 --> 00:05:08,263\n那依法也是規定中央政府給予地方政府的一般性補助款不得少於修正施行前的前一年的預算編列數請問行政院有沒有依法編築115年度給地方政府的一般性補助款\n\n16\n00:05:09,215 --> 00:05:34,092\n基本上我是認為立法院做這樣的決議啊是侵犯了行政院編列預算的權利哪有說一個比例定住之後每逢年都不能調整我現在請教您的是115年度的編列預算你們有沒有依照這個不得定前沿的預算數我認為這樣的一個定數是違反侵犯了行政院的編列決定哪有一個定數但是這個財化法已經經過總統公告生效\n\n17\n00:05:39,475 --> 00:06:04,386\n我們未來或許基於憲政的救濟有其他的方式但基於讓預算能夠如期的上路我們還是依照這個方式在編定明年度的中央政府的預算譬如說院長的意思就是有對不對就會依照這樣的方式在115年度編列不會低於2500億的一般性補助款嗎院長剛剛這三話我可以這樣解讀嗎有但是我不代表我們完全認為它是合法合憲\n\n18\n00:06:05,492 --> 00:06:35,032\n既然剛剛院長提到了經費財化法上路那也就是說現在115年度在編列的預算就是依照財化法上路的一個方式在編列是嗎我們已經做這樣的準備工作了那請問有沒有事前跟地方政府去做一些全責的劃分還有預算的分配在整個預算編制原則抵定之後一定跟地方政府告訴地方政府要如何的編列這個就是一個溝通的過程往年如此今年一樣\n\n19\n00:06:35,771 --> 00:06:49,382\n所以表示我們也會跟地方的政府好好的溝通而不是像今年這樣忽然三足道他們一般性補助款636億讓他們真的是措手不及了今年的115年度的預算應該是不會有這樣的狀況\n\n20\n00:06:51,049 --> 00:07:20,216\n我們今年也有告訴地方政府預算立法院審查的結果我們會適時來調整我們看一下就是立法院我們針對這一次剛剛院長也特別提到的我們總共統三的項目其實就是11項那其中這一部分的話根本沒有所謂的一般性補助款所以對於這行政院自行砍掉這個一般性補助款根本就是在曲解立法院的決議也是在濫權行政依照統三的結果\n\n21\n00:07:20,876 --> 00:07:48,392\n也刪不掉939億其實院長很多地方其實都可以刪比如說像這兩天發生的就業安定基金5000多億審計部請你們要追回應該是要像違法者追回結果不是你們說你們還要編列公務預算回補這個濫用的錢所以這樣子當然會沒錢所以說其實我覺得有很多地方其實都可以刪就是因為\n\n22\n00:07:49,553 --> 00:08:00,327\n亂扶鞭爛鞭我們才會刪嘛我們怎麼刪呢就連這件事都不刪其實我相信有很多地方可以刪如果您真的不了解的話其實各部會自己都很清楚啊那\n\n23\n00:08:01,417 --> 00:08:19,658\n我們可以看到在一百今年的六月四號在立法院裁委會接受備詢的時候主計總署有提供了三個方案給您選擇主計長也在這裡第一個是刪減國債利息的支出B案是刪除一般性補助款三市以上各刪減一半\n\n24\n00:08:20,859 --> 00:08:38,147\n而院長卻選擇了B案就是影響最大的刪減一般性的補助款而一般性的補助款是用在哪裡用在教育補助社會福利還有基礎建設還有其他基本支出跟平衡預算的補助所以您可以看到如果針對債務的支出我們今年有1073億\n\n25\n00:08:40,888 --> 00:08:57,356\n所以如果你那時候可以選擇先從這個刪除一般的債務支出然後最後再來追加預算這樣就不會影響到地方政府的一般性補助那為何院長您不這樣處理而是選擇傷害地方政府運作最大的一個做法\n\n26\n00:08:58,234 --> 00:09:24,167\n一般性補助裡面有900億的徵域裁員的預算我們是希望這個地方政府能夠從這裡來做自行調整那我剛講的啊你就是一般的這個債務支出你其實只要先刪這個你只要先刪636億你在這個追加預算根本不會影響到地方政府啊是因為15個縣市都是國民黨執政所以你才要用這樣的一個方式嗎否則的話為什麼你不用一個傷害最小的方式而是用傷害最大的地方性補助款的方式\n\n27\n00:09:24,881 --> 00:09:48,753\n三選之後很有意見的也是南部幾個縣市我們也一一加以說明只要有來找行政院其實這種方式我覺得您選擇了一個最糟的一個方式就是三組地方因為我們就面臨一個最糟的狀況我可以跟院長看一下就是其實我們在這個過程當中很多的地方政府都跟我們反映因為事實上在113年7月要編類給地方政府的一般性付出款\n\n28\n00:09:49,153 --> 00:10:00,902\n是雙方經過討論並經立法院審議通過那行政院突然刪除這筆因撥付的補助款的時候請問你們有跟地方政府討論而且獲得他們的同意嗎\n\n29\n00:10:02,927 --> 00:10:14,249\n同樣的這句話應該在審查中央總預算的時候立法院要想到當你要求刪減939億的人有跟行政院討論過嗎而是一直公文下去就說我要刪減你27.3%636億元讓地方措手不及這樣的方式怎麼會讓地方政府能夠有辦法因應呢就刪減了939億不是嗎我們不要忘了那一段\n\n30\n00:10:32,533 --> 00:10:50,006\n造成社會紛亂的那一段我現在以雲林縣為例啦一般性補助款被刪減了37.6億導致社福基礎建設預算崩潰所以本席在6月4號在財委會的質詢的時候我有詢問雲林縣政府的秘書長曾元黃刪除27.3%的這個經費對雲林縣政府有什麼影響\n\n31\n00:10:57,951 --> 00:11:26,434\n各上級政府為謀求地方的均衡發展對於財力交叉的地方政府應予以補助所以我們現在先聽雲林縣政府先說明一下我們刪減了27.3%的經費之後對地方有什麼影響基礎設施的部分我想要更強調一點就是雲林縣是一個很重要的農業生產基地汛期也到了颱風期也到了這些基礎的設施都靠著這些補助款所以對農民的生命財產確實有很大的影響\n\n32\n00:11:27,796 --> 00:11:33,754\n院長當時在6月4號這個曾元華秘書長就已經有提醒我們了\n\n33\n00:11:34,775 --> 00:11:56,674\n在這個階段因為是汛期是颱風期所以他就說針對這些補助款是汛期跟房貸的一個救命前請不要這樣子用這樣的一個方式因為這要用在基礎這個設施或者是一些災害補助的因應方面但是行政院還是執意要扣扣這些補助導致地方沒有辦法那麼多的經費房貸救災災損擴大\n\n34\n00:11:57,975 --> 00:12:23,672\n所以我們可以看到明明知道7月就是颱風季但卻還是用這樣子看這個30年的一般性補助款就是把人民的生產安全呢無視於他們的存在所以請問院長聽到這樣的發言之後你有沒有毛骨悚然啊有沒有覺得說當時為什麼要這樣做而導致這一次這個丹納斯颱風的風災造成這麼大的一個損失呢這是丹納斯颱風造成的各縣市的損失行政院原本可以用稅計證明\n\n35\n00:12:25,173 --> 00:12:43,182\n儘快的來編列各項的預算但現在我們必須舉債而且颱風來的時候我們沒有到各縣市去救實際所自災的情況予以必要的任何的補助跟搶救嗎我們都有做到只是現在我們多增加了舉債必須編列特別預算就是這樣子\n\n36\n00:12:44,102 --> 00:13:13,662\n我們可以看到其實這段時間災區不管是它的屋頂開動總統叫他們自己去修屋頂或者是說這個抽水機來不及抽水而且還有很多的災害行政院說這次的刪減是要落實財政的一個紀律但是中南部的災損十分的嚴重地方也沒錢救災這是紀律還是懲罰人民陳院長你要不要為這次不當的刪減跟全國人民道歉\n\n37\n00:13:14,702 --> 00:13:37,969\n我們是在面對來自立法院大量刪除行政院的預算以及要我們自行調整我們無法在這個自行調整當中去挪出其他的預算所以請地方共體時間只要今天我們提出的解方能夠被大院所接受我們一起最佳預算通過之後所有問題包括中央各部會目前的結局跟地方政府財政上的困難一併解決院長\n\n38\n00:13:39,844 --> 00:14:07,674\n我現在要代表地方政府跟您說一下他們的心聲因為現在就是地方政府就是面對汛期的時候面對颱風的時候他們本來有足夠的經費可以去提前準備可以去提前預防可以減少颱風的災損他在事後也可以在災後迅速的投入救災但是呢因為行政院這次這個刪減了一般性補助款把一些受到受災相關的經費通通都這個\n\n39\n00:14:08,674 --> 00:14:26,233\n砍掉了百分之七三所以才會在這次釀成這樣子的一個災禍其實看起來這不只是天災還是人禍所以針對這個事情我覺得行政院要負最大的責任所以院長您有沒有覺得行政院應該是針對這次颱風行政院的關係所以造成大家這樣的傷害\n\n40\n00:14:29,196 --> 00:14:52,009\n還是因為行政院的預算被刪除之後我們有很多的應該可以作為用在災區的救援或是事前預防的一個過程剛剛已經講在6月4號他們就提醒了現在這個就是颱風季可能會遇到這樣的汛期颱風季砍掉這一般新股補助款對於他們來說確實會有很大的危機6月4號提出來的可是行政院不當一回事還是繼續砍繼續刪減\n\n41\n00:14:54,770 --> 00:15:23,869\n而不讓地方政府有足夠的這個經費來去營營那你認為這樣跟行政院沒有關係嗎我們當初我就說過了如果這樣的刪除未來颱風來的時候我們到地方去我們拿什麼跟地方來做合作院長如果你們沒有刪除一般性補助款地方早就自己做好幹嘛還需要你中央政府來去地方救災他可以早就做好啊所以你當時粉末倒置根本沒有真正的去了解這一次的緣由所以我覺得真的院長你真的要跟全國人民道歉\n\n42\n00:15:24,249 --> 00:15:26,900\n一起解決問題好謝謝徐議政委的諮詢也謝謝卓院長備詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n129\t9332\t請準備謝謝院長我們請卓榮泰院長備詢麻煩再請卓院長備詢區委員好\n21287\t26291\t主委好您辛苦了我想請教一下卓院長行政院在113年8月30號有發函給立法院就是針對\n33291\t53616\t貴院審查的111年度中央政府總預算案所做的決議並附上114年度的法律支出的明細表其中清楚的列出一般性補助款屬於法律義務支出依法必須編列不得刪減那這是行政院送給我們立法院的公文\n54056\t74171\t目的就是要讓立法院在審查預算的時候必須要確認哪些支出是必須編列哪些是不得刪減的強制性項目所以請院長看一下第一項就是一般性補助款而在經過立法院的審議三讀通過的我們114年度的總預算總統也在3月21號正式公佈\n75232\t89586\t結果行政院卻以統三為由自行砍掉636億元相當於27.3的比例這不僅自打嘴巴也更嚴重的違反預算法定原則那我想院長您在\n91007\t104417\t賴清德總統在2月10號的時候有在總統府邀集五院進行國政的會商那當時韓國瑜院長就有當場提出希望行政院不要對114年度的總預算提出複議\n105458\t134901\t而是提出追加減預算的方式來解決紛擾但是呢行政院還是一樣在2月27號提出復議那接著在5月16號韓文地方政府砍掉一般性的補助款636億元那8月14號才提出最佳預算所以這一來一往耽擱了半年如果當時早聽韓院長的一個建議的話也不會讓這半年來讓地方政府苦不堪言那我想\n135621\t147806\t院長這次在行政院發給立法院的這個公文有明確的提出一般性的補助款是處於法定義務的支出那請問院長為什麼還要違法刪除呢\n149014\t174881\t第一個行政院沒有違法刪除在總統召開這個院紀的協調之後我們跟韓院長也有其他若干的接觸我們所提出的方式雙方也都曾經有認同但是後來沒有辦法繼續的執行下去院長您剛剛說沒有違法可是你們明明就違反了立法院的決議這就是違法怎麼會沒有違法刪除呢因為立法院要求行政院自行刪除\n175962\t193759\t我們是給你彈性去刪除因為很多的預算居然講我們刪了你覺得是不可以刪的所以這是一個彈性的做法那如果做不到的話其實我想其實主計總署也可以來做出一些調整跟方式那當然我想這個部分院長我現在請您看一下\n194460\t216333\t在民進黨 我只說兩句話不是不可以刪是刪的過程當中針對特定機關巨額龐大而且要我們自行刪除這確實有困難確實有很多地方其實可以刪的需要花一點時間但是事實上也經過半年哪裡可以刪哪裡不可以刪其實我想主席總署最清楚那你可以看一下民進黨對於法律義務支出的看法在114\n217834\t233020\t4年1月21號的民進黨的臉書有寫2501億的一般性補助款都是行政和立法部門不得變動的中央法定支出那院長您以前也擔任過民進黨的主席那民進黨的臉書您認為他是亂寫的嗎\n237705\t263647\t我想民進黨的臉書這樣的寫法你也不認為它是錯的嗎所以到底是現在的民進黨在打臉您卓榮泰院長還是您卓榮泰院長在打臉民進黨的主席賴清德呢法律義務支出這個的解釋是當行政院基於要編酬這個預算的過程當中我想連民進黨都特別提到了這2500億是一般性補助款必須是法律義務支出不得刪減\n264528\t293269\t那所謂不得刪減就是一塊都不能刪啊還有不得刪減是某比例的刪減那樣是不正確的我們是著於補助我們對補助的定額跟百分比都可以處理法定義務就是既然叫做不得刪減不得就是指一塊錢都不能刪不是說我刪掉27.3%而已我沒有刪掉全部我覺得那是錯誤的曲解那當然我們針對現在正在編列115年度的中央政府的總預算嘛\n293729\t308263\t那依法也是規定中央政府給予地方政府的一般性補助款不得少於修正施行前的前一年的預算編列數請問行政院有沒有依法編築115年度給地方政府的一般性補助款\n309215\t334092\t基本上我是認為立法院做這樣的決議啊是侵犯了行政院編列預算的權利哪有說一個比例定住之後每逢年都不能調整我現在請教您的是115年度的編列預算你們有沒有依照這個不得定前沿的預算數我認為這樣的一個定數是違反侵犯了行政院的編列決定哪有一個定數但是這個財化法已經經過總統公告生效\n339475\t364386\t我們未來或許基於憲政的救濟有其他的方式但基於讓預算能夠如期的上路我們還是依照這個方式在編定明年度的中央政府的預算譬如說院長的意思就是有 對不對就會依照這樣的方式在115年度編列不會低於2500億的一般性補助款嗎院長剛剛這三話我可以這樣解讀嗎有 但是我不代表我們完全認為它是合法合憲\n365492\t395032\t既然剛剛院長提到了經費財化法上路那也就是說現在115年度在編列的預算就是依照財化法上路的一個方式在編列是嗎我們已經做這樣的準備工作了那請問有沒有事前跟地方政府去做一些全責的劃分還有預算的分配在整個預算編制原則抵定之後一定跟地方政府告訴地方政府要如何的編列這個就是一個溝通的過程往年如此今年一樣\n395771\t409382\t所以表示我們也會跟地方的政府好好的溝通而不是像今年這樣忽然三足道他們一般性補助款636億讓他們真的是措手不及了今年的115年度的預算應該是不會有這樣的狀況\n411049\t440216\t我們今年也有告訴地方政府預算立法院審查的結果我們會適時來調整我們看一下就是立法院我們針對這一次剛剛院長也特別提到的我們總共統三的項目其實就是11項那其中這一部分的話根本沒有所謂的一般性補助款所以對於這行政院自行砍掉這個一般性補助款根本就是在曲解立法院的決議也是在濫權行政依照統三的結果\n440876\t468392\t也刪不掉939億其實院長很多地方其實都可以刪比如說像這兩天發生的就業安定基金5000多億審計部請你們要追回應該是要像違法者追回結果不是你們說你們還要編列公務預算回補這個濫用的錢所以這樣子當然會沒錢所以說其實我覺得有很多地方其實都可以刪就是因為\n469553\t480327\t亂扶鞭爛鞭我們才會刪嘛我們怎麼刪呢 就連這件事都不刪其實我相信有很多地方可以刪如果您真的不了解的話其實各部會自己都很清楚啊那\n481417\t499658\t我們可以看到在一百今年的六月四號在立法院裁委會接受備詢的時候主計總署有提供了三個方案給您選擇主計長也在這裡第一個是刪減國債利息的支出B案是刪除一般性補助款三市以上各刪減一半\n500859\t518147\t而院長卻選擇了B案就是影響最大的刪減一般性的補助款而一般性的補助款是用在哪裡用在教育補助社會福利還有基礎建設還有其他基本支出跟平衡預算的補助所以您可以看到如果針對債務的支出我們今年有1073億\n520888\t537356\t所以如果你那時候可以選擇先從這個刪除一般的債務支出然後最後再來追加預算這樣就不會影響到地方政府的一般性補助那為何院長您不這樣處理而是選擇傷害地方政府運作最大的一個做法\n538234\t564167\t一般性補助裡面有900億的徵域裁員的預算我們是希望這個地方政府能夠從這裡來做自行調整那我剛講的啊你就是一般的這個債務支出你其實只要先刪這個你只要先刪636億你在這個追加預算根本不會影響到地方政府啊是因為15個縣市都是國民黨執政所以你才要用這樣的一個方式嗎否則的話為什麼你不用一個傷害最小的方式而是用傷害最大的地方性補助款的方式\n564881\t588753\t三選之後很有意見的也是南部幾個縣市我們也一一加以說明只要有來找行政院其實這種方式我覺得您選擇了一個最糟的一個方式就是三組地方因為我們就面臨一個最糟的狀況我可以跟院長看一下就是其實我們在這個過程當中很多的地方政府都跟我們反映因為事實上在113年7月要編類給地方政府的一般性付出款\n589153\t600902\t是雙方經過討論並經立法院審議通過那行政院突然刪除這筆因撥付的補助款的時候請問你們有跟地方政府討論而且獲得他們的同意嗎\n602927\t614249\t同樣的這句話應該在審查中央總預算的時候立法院要想到當你要求刪減939億的人有跟行政院討論過嗎而是一直公文下去就說我要刪減你27.3% 636億元讓地方措手不及這樣的方式怎麼會讓地方政府能夠有辦法因應呢就刪減了939億不是嗎我們不要忘了那一段\n632533\t650006\t造成社會紛亂的那一段我現在以雲林縣為例啦一般性補助款被刪減了37.6億導致社福基礎建設預算崩潰所以本席在6月4號在財委會的質詢的時候我有詢問雲林縣政府的秘書長曾元黃刪除27.3%的這個經費對雲林縣政府有什麼影響\n657951\t686434\t各上級政府為謀求地方的均衡發展對於財力交叉的地方政府應予以補助所以我們現在先聽雲林縣政府先說明一下我們刪減了27.3%的經費之後對地方有什麼影響基礎設施的部分我想要更強調一點就是雲林縣是一個很重要的農業生產基地汛期也到了 颱風期也到了這些基礎的設施都靠著這些補助款所以對農民的生命財產確實有很大的影響\n687796\t693754\t院長 當時在6月4號這個曾元華秘書長就已經有提醒我們了\n694775\t716674\t在這個階段因為是汛期是颱風期所以他就說針對這些補助款是汛期跟房貸的一個救命前請不要這樣子用這樣的一個方式因為這要用在基礎這個設施或者是一些災害補助的因應方面但是行政院還是執意要扣扣這些補助導致地方沒有辦法那麼多的經費房貸救災災損擴大\n717975\t743672\t所以我們可以看到明明知道7月就是颱風季但卻還是用這樣子看這個30年的一般性補助款就是把人民的生產安全呢無視於他們的存在所以請問院長聽到這樣的發言之後你有沒有毛骨悚然啊有沒有覺得說當時為什麼要這樣做而導致這一次這個丹納斯颱風的風災造成這麼大的一個損失呢這是丹納斯颱風造成的各縣市的損失行政院原本可以用稅計證明\n745173\t763182\t儘快的來編列各項的預算但現在我們必須舉債而且颱風來的時候我們沒有到各縣市去救實際所自災的情況予以必要的任何的補助跟搶救嗎我們都有做到只是現在我們多增加了舉債必須編列特別預算就是這樣子\n764102\t793662\t我們可以看到其實這段時間災區不管是它的屋頂開動總統叫他們自己去修屋頂或者是說這個抽水機來不及抽水而且還有很多的災害行政院說這次的刪減是要落實財政的一個紀律但是中南部的災損十分的嚴重地方也沒錢救災這是紀律還是懲罰人民陳院長你要不要為這次不當的刪減跟全國人民道歉\n794702\t817969\t我們是在面對來自立法院大量刪除行政院的預算以及要我們自行調整我們無法在這個自行調整當中去挪出其他的預算所以請地方共體時間只要今天我們提出的解方能夠被大院所接受我們一起最佳預算通過之後所有問題包括中央各部會目前的結局跟地方政府財政上的困難一併解決院長\n819844\t847674\t我現在要代表地方政府跟您說一下他們的心聲因為現在就是地方政府就是面對汛期的時候面對颱風的時候他們本來有足夠的經費可以去提前準備可以去提前預防可以減少颱風的災損他在事後也可以在災後迅速的投入救災但是呢因為行政院這次這個刪減了一般性補助款把一些受到受災相關的經費通通都這個\n848674\t866233\t砍掉了百分之七三所以才會在這次釀成這樣子的一個災禍其實看起來這不只是天災還是人禍所以針對這個事情我覺得行政院要負最大的責任所以院長您有沒有覺得行政院應該是針對這次颱風行政院的關係所以造成大家這樣的傷害\n869196\t892009\t還是因為行政院的預算被刪除之後我們有很多的應該可以作為用在災區的救援或是事前預防的一個過程剛剛已經講在6月4號他們就提醒了現在這個就是颱風季可能會遇到這樣的汛期颱風季砍掉這一般新股補助款對於他們來說確實會有很大的危機6月4號提出來的可是行政院不當一回事還是繼續砍繼續刪減\n894770\t923869\t而不讓地方政府有足夠的這個經費來去營營那你認為這樣跟行政院沒有關係嗎我們當初我就說過了 如果這樣的刪除未來颱風來的時候 我們到地方去我們拿什麼跟地方來做合作院長 如果你們沒有刪除一般性補助款地方早就自己做好 幹嘛還需要你中央政府來去地方救災他可以早就做好啊所以你當時粉末倒置 根本沒有真正的去了解這一次的緣由所以我覺得真的 院長你真的要跟全國人民道歉\n924249\t926900\t一起解決問題好 謝謝徐議政委的諮詢也謝謝卓院長備詢\n","txt":"請準備謝謝院長我們請卓榮泰院長備詢麻煩再請卓院長備詢區委員好\n主委好您辛苦了我想請教一下卓院長行政院在113年8月30號有發函給立法院就是針對\n貴院審查的111年度中央政府總預算案所做的決議並附上114年度的法律支出的明細表其中清楚的列出一般性補助款屬於法律義務支出依法必須編列不得刪減那這是行政院送給我們立法院的公文\n目的就是要讓立法院在審查預算的時候必須要確認哪些支出是必須編列哪些是不得刪減的強制性項目所以請院長看一下第一項就是一般性補助款而在經過立法院的審議三讀通過的我們114年度的總預算總統也在3月21號正式公佈\n結果行政院卻以統三為由自行砍掉636億元相當於27.3的比例這不僅自打嘴巴也更嚴重的違反預算法定原則那我想院長您在\n賴清德總統在2月10號的時候有在總統府邀集五院進行國政的會商那當時韓國瑜院長就有當場提出希望行政院不要對114年度的總預算提出複議\n而是提出追加減預算的方式來解決紛擾但是呢行政院還是一樣在2月27號提出復議那接著在5月16號韓文地方政府砍掉一般性的補助款636億元那8月14號才提出最佳預算所以這一來一往耽擱了半年如果當時早聽韓院長的一個建議的話也不會讓這半年來讓地方政府苦不堪言那我想\n院長這次在行政院發給立法院的這個公文有明確的提出一般性的補助款是處於法定義務的支出那請問院長為什麼還要違法刪除呢\n第一個行政院沒有違法刪除在總統召開這個院紀的協調之後我們跟韓院長也有其他若干的接觸我們所提出的方式雙方也都曾經有認同但是後來沒有辦法繼續的執行下去院長您剛剛說沒有違法可是你們明明就違反了立法院的決議這就是違法怎麼會沒有違法刪除呢因為立法院要求行政院自行刪除\n我們是給你彈性去刪除因為很多的預算居然講我們刪了你覺得是不可以刪的所以這是一個彈性的做法那如果做不到的話其實我想其實主計總署也可以來做出一些調整跟方式那當然我想這個部分院長我現在請您看一下\n在民進黨 我只說兩句話不是不可以刪是刪的過程當中針對特定機關巨額龐大而且要我們自行刪除這確實有困難確實有很多地方其實可以刪的需要花一點時間但是事實上也經過半年哪裡可以刪哪裡不可以刪其實我想主席總署最清楚那你可以看一下民進黨對於法律義務支出的看法在114\n4年1月21號的民進黨的臉書有寫2501億的一般性補助款都是行政和立法部門不得變動的中央法定支出那院長您以前也擔任過民進黨的主席那民進黨的臉書您認為他是亂寫的嗎\n我想民進黨的臉書這樣的寫法你也不認為它是錯的嗎所以到底是現在的民進黨在打臉您卓榮泰院長還是您卓榮泰院長在打臉民進黨的主席賴清德呢法律義務支出這個的解釋是當行政院基於要編酬這個預算的過程當中我想連民進黨都特別提到了這2500億是一般性補助款必須是法律義務支出不得刪減\n那所謂不得刪減就是一塊都不能刪啊還有不得刪減是某比例的刪減那樣是不正確的我們是著於補助我們對補助的定額跟百分比都可以處理法定義務就是既然叫做不得刪減不得就是指一塊錢都不能刪不是說我刪掉27.3%而已我沒有刪掉全部我覺得那是錯誤的曲解那當然我們針對現在正在編列115年度的中央政府的總預算嘛\n那依法也是規定中央政府給予地方政府的一般性補助款不得少於修正施行前的前一年的預算編列數請問行政院有沒有依法編築115年度給地方政府的一般性補助款\n基本上我是認為立法院做這樣的決議啊是侵犯了行政院編列預算的權利哪有說一個比例定住之後每逢年都不能調整我現在請教您的是115年度的編列預算你們有沒有依照這個不得定前沿的預算數我認為這樣的一個定數是違反侵犯了行政院的編列決定哪有一個定數但是這個財化法已經經過總統公告生效\n我們未來或許基於憲政的救濟有其他的方式但基於讓預算能夠如期的上路我們還是依照這個方式在編定明年度的中央政府的預算譬如說院長的意思就是有 對不對就會依照這樣的方式在115年度編列不會低於2500億的一般性補助款嗎院長剛剛這三話我可以這樣解讀嗎有 但是我不代表我們完全認為它是合法合憲\n既然剛剛院長提到了經費財化法上路那也就是說現在115年度在編列的預算就是依照財化法上路的一個方式在編列是嗎我們已經做這樣的準備工作了那請問有沒有事前跟地方政府去做一些全責的劃分還有預算的分配在整個預算編制原則抵定之後一定跟地方政府告訴地方政府要如何的編列這個就是一個溝通的過程往年如此今年一樣\n所以表示我們也會跟地方的政府好好的溝通而不是像今年這樣忽然三足道他們一般性補助款636億讓他們真的是措手不及了今年的115年度的預算應該是不會有這樣的狀況\n我們今年也有告訴地方政府預算立法院審查的結果我們會適時來調整我們看一下就是立法院我們針對這一次剛剛院長也特別提到的我們總共統三的項目其實就是11項那其中這一部分的話根本沒有所謂的一般性補助款所以對於這行政院自行砍掉這個一般性補助款根本就是在曲解立法院的決議也是在濫權行政依照統三的結果\n也刪不掉939億其實院長很多地方其實都可以刪比如說像這兩天發生的就業安定基金5000多億審計部請你們要追回應該是要像違法者追回結果不是你們說你們還要編列公務預算回補這個濫用的錢所以這樣子當然會沒錢所以說其實我覺得有很多地方其實都可以刪就是因為\n亂扶鞭爛鞭我們才會刪嘛我們怎麼刪呢 就連這件事都不刪其實我相信有很多地方可以刪如果您真的不了解的話其實各部會自己都很清楚啊那\n我們可以看到在一百今年的六月四號在立法院裁委會接受備詢的時候主計總署有提供了三個方案給您選擇主計長也在這裡第一個是刪減國債利息的支出B案是刪除一般性補助款三市以上各刪減一半\n而院長卻選擇了B案就是影響最大的刪減一般性的補助款而一般性的補助款是用在哪裡用在教育補助社會福利還有基礎建設還有其他基本支出跟平衡預算的補助所以您可以看到如果針對債務的支出我們今年有1073億\n所以如果你那時候可以選擇先從這個刪除一般的債務支出然後最後再來追加預算這樣就不會影響到地方政府的一般性補助那為何院長您不這樣處理而是選擇傷害地方政府運作最大的一個做法\n一般性補助裡面有900億的徵域裁員的預算我們是希望這個地方政府能夠從這裡來做自行調整那我剛講的啊你就是一般的這個債務支出你其實只要先刪這個你只要先刪636億你在這個追加預算根本不會影響到地方政府啊是因為15個縣市都是國民黨執政所以你才要用這樣的一個方式嗎否則的話為什麼你不用一個傷害最小的方式而是用傷害最大的地方性補助款的方式\n三選之後很有意見的也是南部幾個縣市我們也一一加以說明只要有來找行政院其實這種方式我覺得您選擇了一個最糟的一個方式就是三組地方因為我們就面臨一個最糟的狀況我可以跟院長看一下就是其實我們在這個過程當中很多的地方政府都跟我們反映因為事實上在113年7月要編類給地方政府的一般性付出款\n是雙方經過討論並經立法院審議通過那行政院突然刪除這筆因撥付的補助款的時候請問你們有跟地方政府討論而且獲得他們的同意嗎\n同樣的這句話應該在審查中央總預算的時候立法院要想到當你要求刪減939億的人有跟行政院討論過嗎而是一直公文下去就說我要刪減你27.3% 636億元讓地方措手不及這樣的方式怎麼會讓地方政府能夠有辦法因應呢就刪減了939億不是嗎我們不要忘了那一段\n造成社會紛亂的那一段我現在以雲林縣為例啦一般性補助款被刪減了37.6億導致社福基礎建設預算崩潰所以本席在6月4號在財委會的質詢的時候我有詢問雲林縣政府的秘書長曾元黃刪除27.3%的這個經費對雲林縣政府有什麼影響\n各上級政府為謀求地方的均衡發展對於財力交叉的地方政府應予以補助所以我們現在先聽雲林縣政府先說明一下我們刪減了27.3%的經費之後對地方有什麼影響基礎設施的部分我想要更強調一點就是雲林縣是一個很重要的農業生產基地汛期也到了 颱風期也到了這些基礎的設施都靠著這些補助款所以對農民的生命財產確實有很大的影響\n院長 當時在6月4號這個曾元華秘書長就已經有提醒我們了\n在這個階段因為是汛期是颱風期所以他就說針對這些補助款是汛期跟房貸的一個救命前請不要這樣子用這樣的一個方式因為這要用在基礎這個設施或者是一些災害補助的因應方面但是行政院還是執意要扣扣這些補助導致地方沒有辦法那麼多的經費房貸救災災損擴大\n所以我們可以看到明明知道7月就是颱風季但卻還是用這樣子看這個30年的一般性補助款就是把人民的生產安全呢無視於他們的存在所以請問院長聽到這樣的發言之後你有沒有毛骨悚然啊有沒有覺得說當時為什麼要這樣做而導致這一次這個丹納斯颱風的風災造成這麼大的一個損失呢這是丹納斯颱風造成的各縣市的損失行政院原本可以用稅計證明\n儘快的來編列各項的預算但現在我們必須舉債而且颱風來的時候我們沒有到各縣市去救實際所自災的情況予以必要的任何的補助跟搶救嗎我們都有做到只是現在我們多增加了舉債必須編列特別預算就是這樣子\n我們可以看到其實這段時間災區不管是它的屋頂開動總統叫他們自己去修屋頂或者是說這個抽水機來不及抽水而且還有很多的災害行政院說這次的刪減是要落實財政的一個紀律但是中南部的災損十分的嚴重地方也沒錢救災這是紀律還是懲罰人民陳院長你要不要為這次不當的刪減跟全國人民道歉\n我們是在面對來自立法院大量刪除行政院的預算以及要我們自行調整我們無法在這個自行調整當中去挪出其他的預算所以請地方共體時間只要今天我們提出的解方能夠被大院所接受我們一起最佳預算通過之後所有問題包括中央各部會目前的結局跟地方政府財政上的困難一併解決院長\n我現在要代表地方政府跟您說一下他們的心聲因為現在就是地方政府就是面對汛期的時候面對颱風的時候他們本來有足夠的經費可以去提前準備可以去提前預防可以減少颱風的災損他在事後也可以在災後迅速的投入救災但是呢因為行政院這次這個刪減了一般性補助款把一些受到受災相關的經費通通都這個\n砍掉了百分之七三所以才會在這次釀成這樣子的一個災禍其實看起來這不只是天災還是人禍所以針對這個事情我覺得行政院要負最大的責任所以院長您有沒有覺得行政院應該是針對這次颱風行政院的關係所以造成大家這樣的傷害\n還是因為行政院的預算被刪除之後我們有很多的應該可以作為用在災區的救援或是事前預防的一個過程剛剛已經講在6月4號他們就提醒了現在這個就是颱風季可能會遇到這樣的汛期颱風季砍掉這一般新股補助款對於他們來說確實會有很大的危機6月4號提出來的可是行政院不當一回事還是繼續砍繼續刪減\n而不讓地方政府有足夠的這個經費來去營營那你認為這樣跟行政院沒有關係嗎我們當初我就說過了 如果這樣的刪除未來颱風來的時候 我們到地方去我們拿什麼跟地方來做合作院長 如果你們沒有刪除一般性補助款地方早就自己做好 幹嘛還需要你中央政府來去地方救災他可以早就做好啊所以你當時粉末倒置 根本沒有真正的去了解這一次的緣由所以我覺得真的 院長你真的要跟全國人民道歉\n一起解決問題好 謝謝徐議政委的諮詢也謝謝卓院長備詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.129 --> 00:09.332\n請準備謝謝院長我們請卓榮泰院長備詢麻煩再請卓院長備詢區委員好\n\n00:21.287 --> 00:26.291\n主委好您辛苦了我想請教一下卓院長行政院在113年8月30號有發函給立法院就是針對\n\n00:33.291 --> 00:53.616\n貴院審查的111年度中央政府總預算案所做的決議並附上114年度的法律支出的明細表其中清楚的列出一般性補助款屬於法律義務支出依法必須編列不得刪減那這是行政院送給我們立法院的公文\n\n00:54.056 --> 01:14.171\n目的就是要讓立法院在審查預算的時候必須要確認哪些支出是必須編列哪些是不得刪減的強制性項目所以請院長看一下第一項就是一般性補助款而在經過立法院的審議三讀通過的我們114年度的總預算總統也在3月21號正式公佈\n\n01:15.232 --> 01:29.586\n結果行政院卻以統三為由自行砍掉636億元相當於27.3的比例這不僅自打嘴巴也更嚴重的違反預算法定原則那我想院長您在\n\n01:31.007 --> 01:44.417\n賴清德總統在2月10號的時候有在總統府邀集五院進行國政的會商那當時韓國瑜院長就有當場提出希望行政院不要對114年度的總預算提出複議\n\n01:45.458 --> 02:14.901\n而是提出追加減預算的方式來解決紛擾但是呢行政院還是一樣在2月27號提出復議那接著在5月16號韓文地方政府砍掉一般性的補助款636億元那8月14號才提出最佳預算所以這一來一往耽擱了半年如果當時早聽韓院長的一個建議的話也不會讓這半年來讓地方政府苦不堪言那我想\n\n02:15.621 --> 02:27.806\n院長這次在行政院發給立法院的這個公文有明確的提出一般性的補助款是處於法定義務的支出那請問院長為什麼還要違法刪除呢\n\n02:29.014 --> 02:54.881\n第一個行政院沒有違法刪除在總統召開這個院紀的協調之後我們跟韓院長也有其他若干的接觸我們所提出的方式雙方也都曾經有認同但是後來沒有辦法繼續的執行下去院長您剛剛說沒有違法可是你們明明就違反了立法院的決議這就是違法怎麼會沒有違法刪除呢因為立法院要求行政院自行刪除\n\n02:55.962 --> 03:13.759\n我們是給你彈性去刪除因為很多的預算居然講我們刪了你覺得是不可以刪的所以這是一個彈性的做法那如果做不到的話其實我想其實主計總署也可以來做出一些調整跟方式那當然我想這個部分院長我現在請您看一下\n\n03:14.460 --> 03:36.333\n在民進黨我只說兩句話不是不可以刪是刪的過程當中針對特定機關巨額龐大而且要我們自行刪除這確實有困難確實有很多地方其實可以刪的需要花一點時間但是事實上也經過半年哪裡可以刪哪裡不可以刪其實我想主席總署最清楚那你可以看一下民進黨對於法律義務支出的看法在114\n\n03:37.834 --> 03:53.020\n4年1月21號的民進黨的臉書有寫2501億的一般性補助款都是行政和立法部門不得變動的中央法定支出那院長您以前也擔任過民進黨的主席那民進黨的臉書您認為他是亂寫的嗎\n\n03:57.705 --> 04:23.647\n我想民進黨的臉書這樣的寫法你也不認為它是錯的嗎所以到底是現在的民進黨在打臉您卓榮泰院長還是您卓榮泰院長在打臉民進黨的主席賴清德呢法律義務支出這個的解釋是當行政院基於要編酬這個預算的過程當中我想連民進黨都特別提到了這2500億是一般性補助款必須是法律義務支出不得刪減\n\n04:24.528 --> 04:53.269\n那所謂不得刪減就是一塊都不能刪啊還有不得刪減是某比例的刪減那樣是不正確的我們是著於補助我們對補助的定額跟百分比都可以處理法定義務就是既然叫做不得刪減不得就是指一塊錢都不能刪不是說我刪掉27.3%而已我沒有刪掉全部我覺得那是錯誤的曲解那當然我們針對現在正在編列115年度的中央政府的總預算嘛\n\n04:53.729 --> 05:08.263\n那依法也是規定中央政府給予地方政府的一般性補助款不得少於修正施行前的前一年的預算編列數請問行政院有沒有依法編築115年度給地方政府的一般性補助款\n\n05:09.215 --> 05:34.092\n基本上我是認為立法院做這樣的決議啊是侵犯了行政院編列預算的權利哪有說一個比例定住之後每逢年都不能調整我現在請教您的是115年度的編列預算你們有沒有依照這個不得定前沿的預算數我認為這樣的一個定數是違反侵犯了行政院的編列決定哪有一個定數但是這個財化法已經經過總統公告生效\n\n05:39.475 --> 06:04.386\n我們未來或許基於憲政的救濟有其他的方式但基於讓預算能夠如期的上路我們還是依照這個方式在編定明年度的中央政府的預算譬如說院長的意思就是有對不對就會依照這樣的方式在115年度編列不會低於2500億的一般性補助款嗎院長剛剛這三話我可以這樣解讀嗎有但是我不代表我們完全認為它是合法合憲\n\n06:05.492 --> 06:35.032\n既然剛剛院長提到了經費財化法上路那也就是說現在115年度在編列的預算就是依照財化法上路的一個方式在編列是嗎我們已經做這樣的準備工作了那請問有沒有事前跟地方政府去做一些全責的劃分還有預算的分配在整個預算編制原則抵定之後一定跟地方政府告訴地方政府要如何的編列這個就是一個溝通的過程往年如此今年一樣\n\n06:35.771 --> 06:49.382\n所以表示我們也會跟地方的政府好好的溝通而不是像今年這樣忽然三足道他們一般性補助款636億讓他們真的是措手不及了今年的115年度的預算應該是不會有這樣的狀況\n\n06:51.049 --> 07:20.216\n我們今年也有告訴地方政府預算立法院審查的結果我們會適時來調整我們看一下就是立法院我們針對這一次剛剛院長也特別提到的我們總共統三的項目其實就是11項那其中這一部分的話根本沒有所謂的一般性補助款所以對於這行政院自行砍掉這個一般性補助款根本就是在曲解立法院的決議也是在濫權行政依照統三的結果\n\n07:20.876 --> 07:48.392\n也刪不掉939億其實院長很多地方其實都可以刪比如說像這兩天發生的就業安定基金5000多億審計部請你們要追回應該是要像違法者追回結果不是你們說你們還要編列公務預算回補這個濫用的錢所以這樣子當然會沒錢所以說其實我覺得有很多地方其實都可以刪就是因為\n\n07:49.553 --> 08:00.327\n亂扶鞭爛鞭我們才會刪嘛我們怎麼刪呢就連這件事都不刪其實我相信有很多地方可以刪如果您真的不了解的話其實各部會自己都很清楚啊那\n\n08:01.417 --> 08:19.658\n我們可以看到在一百今年的六月四號在立法院裁委會接受備詢的時候主計總署有提供了三個方案給您選擇主計長也在這裡第一個是刪減國債利息的支出B案是刪除一般性補助款三市以上各刪減一半\n\n08:20.859 --> 08:38.147\n而院長卻選擇了B案就是影響最大的刪減一般性的補助款而一般性的補助款是用在哪裡用在教育補助社會福利還有基礎建設還有其他基本支出跟平衡預算的補助所以您可以看到如果針對債務的支出我們今年有1073億\n\n08:40.888 --> 08:57.356\n所以如果你那時候可以選擇先從這個刪除一般的債務支出然後最後再來追加預算這樣就不會影響到地方政府的一般性補助那為何院長您不這樣處理而是選擇傷害地方政府運作最大的一個做法\n\n08:58.234 --> 09:24.167\n一般性補助裡面有900億的徵域裁員的預算我們是希望這個地方政府能夠從這裡來做自行調整那我剛講的啊你就是一般的這個債務支出你其實只要先刪這個你只要先刪636億你在這個追加預算根本不會影響到地方政府啊是因為15個縣市都是國民黨執政所以你才要用這樣的一個方式嗎否則的話為什麼你不用一個傷害最小的方式而是用傷害最大的地方性補助款的方式\n\n09:24.881 --> 09:48.753\n三選之後很有意見的也是南部幾個縣市我們也一一加以說明只要有來找行政院其實這種方式我覺得您選擇了一個最糟的一個方式就是三組地方因為我們就面臨一個最糟的狀況我可以跟院長看一下就是其實我們在這個過程當中很多的地方政府都跟我們反映因為事實上在113年7月要編類給地方政府的一般性付出款\n\n09:49.153 --> 10:00.902\n是雙方經過討論並經立法院審議通過那行政院突然刪除這筆因撥付的補助款的時候請問你們有跟地方政府討論而且獲得他們的同意嗎\n\n10:02.927 --> 10:14.249\n同樣的這句話應該在審查中央總預算的時候立法院要想到當你要求刪減939億的人有跟行政院討論過嗎而是一直公文下去就說我要刪減你27.3%636億元讓地方措手不及這樣的方式怎麼會讓地方政府能夠有辦法因應呢就刪減了939億不是嗎我們不要忘了那一段\n\n10:32.533 --> 10:50.006\n造成社會紛亂的那一段我現在以雲林縣為例啦一般性補助款被刪減了37.6億導致社福基礎建設預算崩潰所以本席在6月4號在財委會的質詢的時候我有詢問雲林縣政府的秘書長曾元黃刪除27.3%的這個經費對雲林縣政府有什麼影響\n\n10:57.951 --> 11:26.434\n各上級政府為謀求地方的均衡發展對於財力交叉的地方政府應予以補助所以我們現在先聽雲林縣政府先說明一下我們刪減了27.3%的經費之後對地方有什麼影響基礎設施的部分我想要更強調一點就是雲林縣是一個很重要的農業生產基地汛期也到了颱風期也到了這些基礎的設施都靠著這些補助款所以對農民的生命財產確實有很大的影響\n\n11:27.796 --> 11:33.754\n院長當時在6月4號這個曾元華秘書長就已經有提醒我們了\n\n11:34.775 --> 11:56.674\n在這個階段因為是汛期是颱風期所以他就說針對這些補助款是汛期跟房貸的一個救命前請不要這樣子用這樣的一個方式因為這要用在基礎這個設施或者是一些災害補助的因應方面但是行政院還是執意要扣扣這些補助導致地方沒有辦法那麼多的經費房貸救災災損擴大\n\n11:57.975 --> 12:23.672\n所以我們可以看到明明知道7月就是颱風季但卻還是用這樣子看這個30年的一般性補助款就是把人民的生產安全呢無視於他們的存在所以請問院長聽到這樣的發言之後你有沒有毛骨悚然啊有沒有覺得說當時為什麼要這樣做而導致這一次這個丹納斯颱風的風災造成這麼大的一個損失呢這是丹納斯颱風造成的各縣市的損失行政院原本可以用稅計證明\n\n12:25.173 --> 12:43.182\n儘快的來編列各項的預算但現在我們必須舉債而且颱風來的時候我們沒有到各縣市去救實際所自災的情況予以必要的任何的補助跟搶救嗎我們都有做到只是現在我們多增加了舉債必須編列特別預算就是這樣子\n\n12:44.102 --> 13:13.662\n我們可以看到其實這段時間災區不管是它的屋頂開動總統叫他們自己去修屋頂或者是說這個抽水機來不及抽水而且還有很多的災害行政院說這次的刪減是要落實財政的一個紀律但是中南部的災損十分的嚴重地方也沒錢救災這是紀律還是懲罰人民陳院長你要不要為這次不當的刪減跟全國人民道歉\n\n13:14.702 --> 13:37.969\n我們是在面對來自立法院大量刪除行政院的預算以及要我們自行調整我們無法在這個自行調整當中去挪出其他的預算所以請地方共體時間只要今天我們提出的解方能夠被大院所接受我們一起最佳預算通過之後所有問題包括中央各部會目前的結局跟地方政府財政上的困難一併解決院長\n\n13:39.844 --> 14:07.674\n我現在要代表地方政府跟您說一下他們的心聲因為現在就是地方政府就是面對汛期的時候面對颱風的時候他們本來有足夠的經費可以去提前準備可以去提前預防可以減少颱風的災損他在事後也可以在災後迅速的投入救災但是呢因為行政院這次這個刪減了一般性補助款把一些受到受災相關的經費通通都這個\n\n14:08.674 --> 14:26.233\n砍掉了百分之七三所以才會在這次釀成這樣子的一個災禍其實看起來這不只是天災還是人禍所以針對這個事情我覺得行政院要負最大的責任所以院長您有沒有覺得行政院應該是針對這次颱風行政院的關係所以造成大家這樣的傷害\n\n14:29.196 --> 14:52.009\n還是因為行政院的預算被刪除之後我們有很多的應該可以作為用在災區的救援或是事前預防的一個過程剛剛已經講在6月4號他們就提醒了現在這個就是颱風季可能會遇到這樣的汛期颱風季砍掉這一般新股補助款對於他們來說確實會有很大的危機6月4號提出來的可是行政院不當一回事還是繼續砍繼續刪減\n\n14:54.770 --> 15:23.869\n而不讓地方政府有足夠的這個經費來去營營那你認為這樣跟行政院沒有關係嗎我們當初我就說過了如果這樣的刪除未來颱風來的時候我們到地方去我們拿什麼跟地方來做合作院長如果你們沒有刪除一般性補助款地方早就自己做好幹嘛還需要你中央政府來去地方救災他可以早就做好啊所以你當時粉末倒置根本沒有真正的去了解這一次的緣由所以我覺得真的院長你真的要跟全國人民道歉\n\n15:24.249 --> 15:26.900\n一起解決問題好謝謝徐議政委的諮詢也謝謝卓院長備詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.129,"end":9.332,"text":"請準備謝謝院長我們請卓榮泰院長備詢麻煩再請卓院長備詢區委員好"},{"start":21.287,"end":26.291,"text":"主委好您辛苦了我想請教一下卓院長行政院在113年8月30號有發函給立法院就是針對"},{"start":33.291,"end":53.616,"text":"貴院審查的111年度中央政府總預算案所做的決議並附上114年度的法律支出的明細表其中清楚的列出一般性補助款屬於法律義務支出依法必須編列不得刪減那這是行政院送給我們立法院的公文"},{"start":54.056,"end":74.171,"text":"目的就是要讓立法院在審查預算的時候必須要確認哪些支出是必須編列哪些是不得刪減的強制性項目所以請院長看一下第一項就是一般性補助款而在經過立法院的審議三讀通過的我們114年度的總預算總統也在3月21號正式公佈"},{"start":75.232,"end":89.586,"text":"結果行政院卻以統三為由自行砍掉636億元相當於27.3的比例這不僅自打嘴巴也更嚴重的違反預算法定原則那我想院長您在"},{"start":91.007,"end":104.417,"text":"賴清德總統在2月10號的時候有在總統府邀集五院進行國政的會商那當時韓國瑜院長就有當場提出希望行政院不要對114年度的總預算提出複議"},{"start":105.458,"end":134.901,"text":"而是提出追加減預算的方式來解決紛擾但是呢行政院還是一樣在2月27號提出復議那接著在5月16號韓文地方政府砍掉一般性的補助款636億元那8月14號才提出最佳預算所以這一來一往耽擱了半年如果當時早聽韓院長的一個建議的話也不會讓這半年來讓地方政府苦不堪言那我想"},{"start":135.621,"end":147.806,"text":"院長這次在行政院發給立法院的這個公文有明確的提出一般性的補助款是處於法定義務的支出那請問院長為什麼還要違法刪除呢"},{"start":149.014,"end":174.881,"text":"第一個行政院沒有違法刪除在總統召開這個院紀的協調之後我們跟韓院長也有其他若干的接觸我們所提出的方式雙方也都曾經有認同但是後來沒有辦法繼續的執行下去院長您剛剛說沒有違法可是你們明明就違反了立法院的決議這就是違法怎麼會沒有違法刪除呢因為立法院要求行政院自行刪除"},{"start":175.962,"end":193.759,"text":"我們是給你彈性去刪除因為很多的預算居然講我們刪了你覺得是不可以刪的所以這是一個彈性的做法那如果做不到的話其實我想其實主計總署也可以來做出一些調整跟方式那當然我想這個部分院長我現在請您看一下"},{"start":194.46,"end":216.333,"text":"在民進黨 我只說兩句話不是不可以刪是刪的過程當中針對特定機關巨額龐大而且要我們自行刪除這確實有困難確實有很多地方其實可以刪的需要花一點時間但是事實上也經過半年哪裡可以刪哪裡不可以刪其實我想主席總署最清楚那你可以看一下民進黨對於法律義務支出的看法在114"},{"start":217.834,"end":233.02,"text":"4年1月21號的民進黨的臉書有寫2501億的一般性補助款都是行政和立法部門不得變動的中央法定支出那院長您以前也擔任過民進黨的主席那民進黨的臉書您認為他是亂寫的嗎"},{"start":237.705,"end":263.647,"text":"我想民進黨的臉書這樣的寫法你也不認為它是錯的嗎所以到底是現在的民進黨在打臉您卓榮泰院長還是您卓榮泰院長在打臉民進黨的主席賴清德呢法律義務支出這個的解釋是當行政院基於要編酬這個預算的過程當中我想連民進黨都特別提到了這2500億是一般性補助款必須是法律義務支出不得刪減"},{"start":264.528,"end":293.269,"text":"那所謂不得刪減就是一塊都不能刪啊還有不得刪減是某比例的刪減那樣是不正確的我們是著於補助我們對補助的定額跟百分比都可以處理法定義務就是既然叫做不得刪減不得就是指一塊錢都不能刪不是說我刪掉27.3%而已我沒有刪掉全部我覺得那是錯誤的曲解那當然我們針對現在正在編列115年度的中央政府的總預算嘛"},{"start":293.729,"end":308.263,"text":"那依法也是規定中央政府給予地方政府的一般性補助款不得少於修正施行前的前一年的預算編列數請問行政院有沒有依法編築115年度給地方政府的一般性補助款"},{"start":309.215,"end":334.092,"text":"基本上我是認為立法院做這樣的決議啊是侵犯了行政院編列預算的權利哪有說一個比例定住之後每逢年都不能調整我現在請教您的是115年度的編列預算你們有沒有依照這個不得定前沿的預算數我認為這樣的一個定數是違反侵犯了行政院的編列決定哪有一個定數但是這個財化法已經經過總統公告生效"},{"start":339.475,"end":364.386,"text":"我們未來或許基於憲政的救濟有其他的方式但基於讓預算能夠如期的上路我們還是依照這個方式在編定明年度的中央政府的預算譬如說院長的意思就是有 對不對就會依照這樣的方式在115年度編列不會低於2500億的一般性補助款嗎院長剛剛這三話我可以這樣解讀嗎有 但是我不代表我們完全認為它是合法合憲"},{"start":365.492,"end":395.032,"text":"既然剛剛院長提到了經費財化法上路那也就是說現在115年度在編列的預算就是依照財化法上路的一個方式在編列是嗎我們已經做這樣的準備工作了那請問有沒有事前跟地方政府去做一些全責的劃分還有預算的分配在整個預算編制原則抵定之後一定跟地方政府告訴地方政府要如何的編列這個就是一個溝通的過程往年如此今年一樣"},{"start":395.771,"end":409.382,"text":"所以表示我們也會跟地方的政府好好的溝通而不是像今年這樣忽然三足道他們一般性補助款636億讓他們真的是措手不及了今年的115年度的預算應該是不會有這樣的狀況"},{"start":411.049,"end":440.216,"text":"我們今年也有告訴地方政府預算立法院審查的結果我們會適時來調整我們看一下就是立法院我們針對這一次剛剛院長也特別提到的我們總共統三的項目其實就是11項那其中這一部分的話根本沒有所謂的一般性補助款所以對於這行政院自行砍掉這個一般性補助款根本就是在曲解立法院的決議也是在濫權行政依照統三的結果"},{"start":440.876,"end":468.392,"text":"也刪不掉939億其實院長很多地方其實都可以刪比如說像這兩天發生的就業安定基金5000多億審計部請你們要追回應該是要像違法者追回結果不是你們說你們還要編列公務預算回補這個濫用的錢所以這樣子當然會沒錢所以說其實我覺得有很多地方其實都可以刪就是因為"},{"start":469.553,"end":480.327,"text":"亂扶鞭爛鞭我們才會刪嘛我們怎麼刪呢 就連這件事都不刪其實我相信有很多地方可以刪如果您真的不了解的話其實各部會自己都很清楚啊那"},{"start":481.417,"end":499.658,"text":"我們可以看到在一百今年的六月四號在立法院裁委會接受備詢的時候主計總署有提供了三個方案給您選擇主計長也在這裡第一個是刪減國債利息的支出B案是刪除一般性補助款三市以上各刪減一半"},{"start":500.859,"end":518.147,"text":"而院長卻選擇了B案就是影響最大的刪減一般性的補助款而一般性的補助款是用在哪裡用在教育補助社會福利還有基礎建設還有其他基本支出跟平衡預算的補助所以您可以看到如果針對債務的支出我們今年有1073億"},{"start":520.888,"end":537.356,"text":"所以如果你那時候可以選擇先從這個刪除一般的債務支出然後最後再來追加預算這樣就不會影響到地方政府的一般性補助那為何院長您不這樣處理而是選擇傷害地方政府運作最大的一個做法"},{"start":538.234,"end":564.167,"text":"一般性補助裡面有900億的徵域裁員的預算我們是希望這個地方政府能夠從這裡來做自行調整那我剛講的啊你就是一般的這個債務支出你其實只要先刪這個你只要先刪636億你在這個追加預算根本不會影響到地方政府啊是因為15個縣市都是國民黨執政所以你才要用這樣的一個方式嗎否則的話為什麼你不用一個傷害最小的方式而是用傷害最大的地方性補助款的方式"},{"start":564.881,"end":588.753,"text":"三選之後很有意見的也是南部幾個縣市我們也一一加以說明只要有來找行政院其實這種方式我覺得您選擇了一個最糟的一個方式就是三組地方因為我們就面臨一個最糟的狀況我可以跟院長看一下就是其實我們在這個過程當中很多的地方政府都跟我們反映因為事實上在113年7月要編類給地方政府的一般性付出款"},{"start":589.153,"end":600.902,"text":"是雙方經過討論並經立法院審議通過那行政院突然刪除這筆因撥付的補助款的時候請問你們有跟地方政府討論而且獲得他們的同意嗎"},{"start":602.927,"end":614.249,"text":"同樣的這句話應該在審查中央總預算的時候立法院要想到當你要求刪減939億的人有跟行政院討論過嗎而是一直公文下去就說我要刪減你27.3% 636億元讓地方措手不及這樣的方式怎麼會讓地方政府能夠有辦法因應呢就刪減了939億不是嗎我們不要忘了那一段"},{"start":632.533,"end":650.006,"text":"造成社會紛亂的那一段我現在以雲林縣為例啦一般性補助款被刪減了37.6億導致社福基礎建設預算崩潰所以本席在6月4號在財委會的質詢的時候我有詢問雲林縣政府的秘書長曾元黃刪除27.3%的這個經費對雲林縣政府有什麼影響"},{"start":657.951,"end":686.434,"text":"各上級政府為謀求地方的均衡發展對於財力交叉的地方政府應予以補助所以我們現在先聽雲林縣政府先說明一下我們刪減了27.3%的經費之後對地方有什麼影響基礎設施的部分我想要更強調一點就是雲林縣是一個很重要的農業生產基地汛期也到了 颱風期也到了這些基礎的設施都靠著這些補助款所以對農民的生命財產確實有很大的影響"},{"start":687.796,"end":693.754,"text":"院長 當時在6月4號這個曾元華秘書長就已經有提醒我們了"},{"start":694.775,"end":716.674,"text":"在這個階段因為是汛期是颱風期所以他就說針對這些補助款是汛期跟房貸的一個救命前請不要這樣子用這樣的一個方式因為這要用在基礎這個設施或者是一些災害補助的因應方面但是行政院還是執意要扣扣這些補助導致地方沒有辦法那麼多的經費房貸救災災損擴大"},{"start":717.975,"end":743.672,"text":"所以我們可以看到明明知道7月就是颱風季但卻還是用這樣子看這個30年的一般性補助款就是把人民的生產安全呢無視於他們的存在所以請問院長聽到這樣的發言之後你有沒有毛骨悚然啊有沒有覺得說當時為什麼要這樣做而導致這一次這個丹納斯颱風的風災造成這麼大的一個損失呢這是丹納斯颱風造成的各縣市的損失行政院原本可以用稅計證明"},{"start":745.173,"end":763.182,"text":"儘快的來編列各項的預算但現在我們必須舉債而且颱風來的時候我們沒有到各縣市去救實際所自災的情況予以必要的任何的補助跟搶救嗎我們都有做到只是現在我們多增加了舉債必須編列特別預算就是這樣子"},{"start":764.102,"end":793.662,"text":"我們可以看到其實這段時間災區不管是它的屋頂開動總統叫他們自己去修屋頂或者是說這個抽水機來不及抽水而且還有很多的災害行政院說這次的刪減是要落實財政的一個紀律但是中南部的災損十分的嚴重地方也沒錢救災這是紀律還是懲罰人民陳院長你要不要為這次不當的刪減跟全國人民道歉"},{"start":794.702,"end":817.969,"text":"我們是在面對來自立法院大量刪除行政院的預算以及要我們自行調整我們無法在這個自行調整當中去挪出其他的預算所以請地方共體時間只要今天我們提出的解方能夠被大院所接受我們一起最佳預算通過之後所有問題包括中央各部會目前的結局跟地方政府財政上的困難一併解決院長"},{"start":819.844,"end":847.674,"text":"我現在要代表地方政府跟您說一下他們的心聲因為現在就是地方政府就是面對汛期的時候面對颱風的時候他們本來有足夠的經費可以去提前準備可以去提前預防可以減少颱風的災損他在事後也可以在災後迅速的投入救災但是呢因為行政院這次這個刪減了一般性補助款把一些受到受災相關的經費通通都這個"},{"start":848.674,"end":866.233,"text":"砍掉了百分之七三所以才會在這次釀成這樣子的一個災禍其實看起來這不只是天災還是人禍所以針對這個事情我覺得行政院要負最大的責任所以院長您有沒有覺得行政院應該是針對這次颱風行政院的關係所以造成大家這樣的傷害"},{"start":869.196,"end":892.009,"text":"還是因為行政院的預算被刪除之後我們有很多的應該可以作為用在災區的救援或是事前預防的一個過程剛剛已經講在6月4號他們就提醒了現在這個就是颱風季可能會遇到這樣的汛期颱風季砍掉這一般新股補助款對於他們來說確實會有很大的危機6月4號提出來的可是行政院不當一回事還是繼續砍繼續刪減"},{"start":894.77,"end":923.869,"text":"而不讓地方政府有足夠的這個經費來去營營那你認為這樣跟行政院沒有關係嗎我們當初我就說過了 如果這樣的刪除未來颱風來的時候 我們到地方去我們拿什麼跟地方來做合作院長 如果你們沒有刪除一般性補助款地方早就自己做好 幹嘛還需要你中央政府來去地方救災他可以早就做好啊所以你當時粉末倒置 根本沒有真正的去了解這一次的緣由所以我覺得真的 院長你真的要跟全國人民道歉"},{"start":924.249,"end":926.9,"text":"一起解決問題好 謝謝徐議政委的諮詢也謝謝卓院長備詢"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":475,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（16時33分）謝謝院長，請卓榮泰院長備詢。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：許委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：卓院長好，您辛苦了。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["許委員宇甄：我想請教一下卓院長，行政院在113年8月30號有發函給立法院，針對貴院審查111年度中央政府總預算案所作決議，並附上114年度的法律義務支出明細表，其中清楚地列出一般性補助款屬於法律義務支出，依法必須編列，不得刪減。這是行政院送給立法院的公文，目的就是要讓立法院在審查預算的時候，必須確認哪些支出是必須編列、哪些是不得刪減的強制性項目，所以請院長看一下，第一項就是一般性補助款；而在經過立法院審議、三讀通過的114年度總預算，總統也在3月21號正式公布，結果行政院卻以統刪為由，自行砍掉636億元，相當於27.3的比例，這不僅自打嘴巴，更嚴重的違反預算法定原則。院長，賴清德總統於2月10號在總統府邀集五院進行國政會商，當時韓國瑜院長當場就提出希望行政院不要對114年度的總預算提出覆議，而是提出追加減預算的方式來解決紛擾，但是行政院還是一樣在2月27號提出覆議，接著在5月16號函文地方政府砍掉一般性的補助款636億元，8月14號才提出追加預算，所以這一來一往耽擱了半年，如果當時早聽韓院長的建議，也不會在這半年來讓地方政府苦不堪言。院長，這次在行政院發給立法院的公文有明確提出一般性的補助款是屬於法定義務的支出，請問院長為什麼還要違法刪除呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個，我行政院沒有違法刪除，在總統召開院際的協調之後，我們跟韓院長也有其他若干的接觸，我們所提出的方式，雙方也都曾經有認同，但是後來沒有辦法繼續施行下去，所以……"],["許委員宇甄：院長，您剛剛說沒有違法嘛！可是你們明明就違反了立法院的決議，這就是違法啊，怎麼會沒有違法刪除呢？另外……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為立法院要求行政院自行刪除。"],["許委員宇甄：我們是給你彈性去刪除……"],["卓院長榮泰：對啊！所以我們就自行刪除。"],["許委員宇甄：因為很多的預算，我們刪了，但你覺得是不可以刪的，所以這是一個彈性的作法……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是……"],["許委員宇甄：如果做不到的話，其實我想主計總處也可以來做出一些調整跟方式……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是不可以刪，是立法院刪的數……"],["許委員宇甄：當然我想這個部分，院長，我現在請您看一下，在民進黨……"],["卓院長榮泰：我只說兩句話，不是不可以刪，是刪的過程當中，針對特定機關巨額龐大，而且要我們自行刪除，這確實有困難。"],["許委員宇甄：確實有很多地方其實可以刪的，需要花一點時間，但是事實上也經過半年，哪裡可以刪、哪裡不可以刪，其實我想主計總處最清楚。您可以看一下，民進黨對於法律義務支出的看法，在114年1月21號民進黨的臉書有寫2,501億的一般性補助款都是行政和立法部門不得變動的中央法定支出。院長，您以前擔任也過民進黨的主席，民進黨的臉書，您認為它是亂寫的嗎？我想民進黨的臉書這樣的寫法，你也不認為它是錯的嘛！所以到底是現在的民進黨在打臉您卓榮泰院長，還是您卓榮泰院長在打臉民進黨的主席賴清德呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：依法律義務支出，這個解釋是當行政院基於要編籌預算的過程當中，依照各個預算支出之性質，將它區分的……"],["許委員宇甄：我想連民進黨都特別提到了這2,501億是一般性補助款，必須是法律義務支出，不得刪減，所謂不得刪減就是1塊都不能刪，還有不得刪減是某比例的刪減？那樣是不正確的。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，對地方的補助，我們是酌予補助，我們對補助的定額跟百分比都可以處理。"],["許委員宇甄：法定義務就是既然叫做不得刪減，「不得」就是指1塊錢都不能刪，不是說我刪掉27.3%而已、我沒有刪掉全部，我覺得那是錯誤的曲解。當然我們針對現在正在編列115年度的中央政府總預算，依法也是規定中央政府給予地方政府的一般性補助款不得少於修正施行前一年的預算編列數，請問行政院有沒有依法編足115年度給地方政府的一般性補助款？"],["卓院長榮泰：基本上我是認為立法院做這樣的決議是侵犯了行政院編列預算的權力……"],["許委員宇甄：我現在在請教院長的是……"],["卓院長榮泰：哪有說一個比例定住之後，逐年都不能調整？"],["許委員宇甄：院長，我現在在請教您的是115年度的編列預算，你們有沒有依照這個「不得低於前一年的預算數」？"],["卓院長榮泰：我先說我的立場，我認為這樣的定數是違反、侵犯了行政院的編列權，哪有一個定數……"],["許委員宇甄：所以你的意思就是說法律是錯的囉？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是財劃法已經經過總統公告生效，我們未來或許基於憲政的救濟有其他的方式，但基於讓預算能夠如期上路，我們還是依照這個方式在編訂明年度的中央政府總預算。"],["許委員宇甄：所以院長的意思就是有，對不對？就會依照這樣的方式在115年度編列不會低於2,501億的一般性補助款，院長剛剛這番話，我可以這樣解讀嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：有，但是不代表我們完全認為它是合法、合憲的。"],["許委員宇甄：既然剛剛院長提到了財劃法上路，也就是說現在115年度在編列的預算就是依照財劃法上路的方式在編列，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們已經做這樣的準備工作了。"],["許委員宇甄：請問有沒有事前跟地方政府去做一些權責的劃分還有預算的分配？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在整個預算編製原則底定之後，一定告訴地方政府要如何編列，這個就是一個溝通的過程，往年如此，今年一樣。"],["許委員宇甄：所以表示我們也會跟地方政府好好溝通，而不是像今年這樣忽然刪除掉他們一般性補助款636億，讓他們真的是措手不及囉？115年度預算應該是不會有這樣的狀況。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們今年也有告訴地方政府，立法院審查預算的結果，我們會適時來調整，這個也有講過。"],["許委員宇甄：我們看一下立法院針對這一次，剛剛院長也特別提到的，我們總共統刪的項目其實就是11項，其中這部分根本沒有所謂的一般性補助款，所以對於行政院自行砍掉一般性補助款，根本就是在曲解立法院的決議，也在濫權行政。"],["卓院長榮泰：這些錢依照統刪的結果，也刪不掉939億。"],["許委員宇甄：院長，很多地方其實都可以刪，比如說像這兩天發生的就業安定基金，五千多億審計部請你們要追回，應該是要向違法者追回，結果不是，你們說你們還要編列公務預算回補這個濫用的錢，所以這樣子當然會沒錢。"],["卓院長榮泰：就業安定基金……"],["許委員宇甄：所以我覺得有很多地方其實都可以刪……"],["卓院長榮泰：就業安定基金是收來的錢耶！我們怎麼刪啊？"],["許委員宇甄：就是因為浮編、濫編，我們才會刪。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們怎麼刪啊？就業安定基金怎麼刪？"],["許委員宇甄：院長，其實我相信有很多地方可以刪……"],["卓院長榮泰：它的支出是另外一個方式。"],["許委員宇甄：如果您真的不了解的話，其實各部會自己都很清楚。我們可以看到在今年的6月4日在立法院財委會接受備詢的時候，主計總處有提供了3個方案給您選擇，主計長也在這裡，第一個是刪減國債利息的支出；第二案是刪除一般性補助款；第三個是以上各刪減一半。而院長卻選擇了第二案，就是影響最大的刪減一般性補助款，而一般性補助款是用在哪裡？用在教育補助、社會福利、基礎建設，還有其他基本支出及平衡預算的補助。所以您可以看到針對債務的支出……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們希望調整的是增裕財源這一項。"],["許委員宇甄：我們今年有1,073億，所以如果你那時候可以選擇先從刪除一般的債務支出，然後最後再來追加預算，這樣就不會影響到地方政府的一般性補助，為何院長您不這樣處理，而是選擇傷害地方政府運作最大的一個作法？"],["卓院長榮泰：一般性補助裡面有900億增裕財源的預算，我們是希望地方政府能夠從這裡來做自行調整。"],["許委員宇甄：我剛剛講的，這個一般的債務支出其實只要先刪636億，你再追加預算，根本不會影響到地方政府，是因為15個縣市都是國民黨執政，所以你才要用這樣的方式嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有。"],["許委員宇甄：否則的話，為什麼你不用一個傷害最小的方式，而是用傷害最大的刪減地方性補助款的方式？"],["卓院長榮泰：刪減之後，很有意見的也是南部幾個縣市，我們也一一加以說明，只要有來找行政院，我們……"],["許委員宇甄：其實這種方式我覺得您選擇了一個最糟的方式，就是刪除地方的一般性補助款。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為我們就面臨一個最糟的狀況。"],["許委員宇甄：我可以給院長看一下，就是其實我們在這個過程當中，很多地方政府都會跟我們反映，因為事實上在113年7月要編列給地方政府的一般性補助款是雙方經過討論並經立法院審議通過，行政院突然刪除這筆應撥付的補助款的時候，請問你們有跟地方政府討論而且獲得他們的同意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：同樣的，這句話應該在審查中央政府總預算的時候，立法院要想到喔！當你要求刪減939億的時候，有跟行政院討論過嗎？"],["許委員宇甄：院長，你完全沒有跟地方通知，而是一紙公文下去，就說要刪減27.3%、636億元，讓地方措手不及。"],["卓院長榮泰：大院在表決的時候，連公文都沒有……"],["許委員宇甄：這樣的方式怎麼會讓地方政府能夠有辦法因應呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：就拿出一張單子出來表決就刪減了939億，不是嗎？"],["許委員宇甄：院長，我再告訴您，針對這個部分，其實有一個很大的傷害，我可以跟您講一下……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們不要忘了那一段，造成社會紛亂的那一段，好不好？"],["許委員宇甄：我現在以雲林縣為例，一般性補助款被刪減了37.6億，導致社福基礎建設預算崩潰，所以本席在6月6日在財委會質詢的時候，我有詢問雲林縣政府的秘書長曾元煌，刪除27.3%的經費對雲林縣政府有什麼影響，我們看一下影片。","（播放影片）"],["許委員宇甄：院長，當時在6月4日曾元煌秘書長就已經有提醒我們了，這個階段因為是汛期、是颱風期，所以他就說針對這些補助款是汛期跟防颱的一個救命錢，請不要用這樣的方式，因為這要用在基礎設施或者是一些災害補助的因應方面，但是行政院還是執意要剋扣這些補助，導致地方沒有辦法有那麼多的經費防颱救災，導致災損擴大，所以我們可以看到，明明知道7月就是颱風季，但卻還是這樣刪除我們的一般性補助款，就是無視人民的生命財產安全。所以請問院長，聽到這樣的發言之後，你有沒有毛骨悚然？有沒有覺得當時為什麼要這樣做，而導致這一次丹娜絲颱風的風災造成這麼大的損失呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：這次丹娜絲颱風造成各縣市的損失，行政院原本可以用歲計賸餘儘快來編列各項預算，但現在我們必須舉債，而且颱風來的時候，我們難道沒有到各縣市去就實際的致災情況予以必要的任何補助跟搶救嗎？我們都有做到，只是現在我們多增加了舉債，必須編列特別預算，就是這樣子而已啊。"],["許委員宇甄：院長，我們可以看到，其實這段時間，災區不管是屋頂開洞，總統叫他們自己去修屋頂，或者是抽水機來不及抽水，還有很多的災害，行政院說這次的刪減是要落實財政紀律，但是中南部的災損十分地嚴重，地方也沒錢救災，這是紀律還是懲罰人民？請問院長，你要不要為這次不當的刪減跟全國人民道歉？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是在面對來自立法院大量刪除行政院的預算以及要我們自行調整，我們無法在這個自行調整當中去挪出其他的預算，所以請地方共體時艱，只要今天我們提出的解方能夠被大院所接受，我們一起讓追加預算通過，所有的問題包括中央各部會目前的拮据跟地方政府財政上的困難都能夠一併解決。"],["許委員宇甄：院長，我現在要代表地方政府跟您說一下他們的心聲，因為地方政府在面對汛期、面對颱風的時候，它本來有足夠的經費可以去提前準備，可以去提前預防，可以減少颱風的災損，它在事後、在災後也可以迅速投入救災，但是因為行政院這次刪減一般性補助款，把一些受災需要的相關經費砍掉了27.3%，所以才會在這次釀成這樣的災禍，其實看起來這不只是天災，還是人禍，針對這個事情，我覺得行政院要負最大的責任。所以院長，您有沒有覺得行政院應該是針對這次的颱風……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員的意思是這次颱風是因為行政院的關係，所以造成大家這樣的傷害，還是因為行政院的預算被刪除之後……"],["許委員宇甄：因為一般性補助款被刪除之後，我們有很多應該可以用在災區救援或是事前預防的過程，剛剛已經講了，在6月4號他們就提醒了現在是颱風季，可能會遇到這樣的汛期，在颱風季砍掉一般性補助款，對於他們來說，確實會有很大的危機，6月4號提出來的，可是行政院不當一回事，還是繼續砍、繼續刪減，而不讓地方政府有足夠的經費來因應，你認為這樣跟行政院沒有關係嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當初我就說過了，如果這樣刪除，未來颱風來的時候，我們到地方去，我們拿什麼跟地方來做合作？"],["許委員宇甄：院長，如果你們沒有刪除一般性補助款，地方早就自己做好……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個更早我就講過了，您也沒有聽進去啊。"],["許委員宇甄：幹嘛還需要你中央政府去地方救災，地方自己早就做好了啊……"],["卓院長榮泰：當初還有人認為我把責任歸……"],["許委員宇甄：所以你這樣是本末倒置，根本沒有真正去了解這次的緣由……"],["卓院長榮泰：當時還有人說我把責任歸給地方。"],["許委員宇甄：所以我真的覺得院長，你真的要跟全國人民道歉。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一起來解決問題。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長備詢。","接下來登記第15號張雅琳委員、登記第16號賴惠員委員、登記第17號王正旭委員，三位委員之質詢均以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員張雅琳書面質詢：","第一題：","因應《財政收支劃分法》修法，地方政府自114年度起，將增加3,753億元統籌分配稅款。在中央財源減少、地方財源增加的情況下，各項建設及補助的支出比例，自難以再完全比照往年。根據「中央對直轄市及縣市社會福利補助經費設算表」顯示，113年度設算分配數為40,044,362千元、114年度設算分配數為40,724,237千元。","目前初步看來，114年度財劃法正式施行之後，中央財政狀況並無影響設算的金額。請行政院針對未來設算金額是否已經跟各縣市政府完成協商，相關補助金額是否會影響？金額比例大約幾%，請行政院說明上述狀況。","此外，近期行政院也通過《丹娜絲颱風及七二八豪雨災後復原重建特別條例》草案，顯示中央在面對重大天災及全國性政策時，仍必須主導並承擔龐大經費與責任，因又受限財劃法的規範，今年度行政院提出追加預算後是否仍有餘裕支持相關重建計畫？請說明相關財政狀況。另外目前行政院是否已經與各縣市政府完成法定預算支出明確的分攤比例，以界定中央與地方在各支出領域應負擔之責任？","第二題：","目前本院刻正審查營養午餐法草案，而相關討論圍繞未來本法通過之後，中央能夠負擔的補助金額為何？過往模式下，中央主要補助弱勢家庭學生，而其餘經費則需由地方自籌，導致不同縣市因財政能力差異，午餐品質呈現落差。","但《財政收支劃分法》施行後，未來在營養午餐補助經費規劃中，相較於過去中央每年補助的74億元，是否已經有所調整？又或是否已和地方政府取得責任上的明確劃分？而其他未來相關草案，包含社會救助法或教育相關法案，是否已經與各縣市政府討論出相關負擔的比例？請行政院說明目前概況。"],["委員賴惠員書面質詢：","今年1月21日，立法院由在野黨主導，草率三讀通過2025年中央政府總預算案，甚至沒有宣讀刪減後的歲出總額，行政院主計總處和立法院議事處花了快一個月的時間，才確認最後通過的預算金額和刪減項目。這次預算刪減金額2,076億元，占總預算的6.6%，不僅是史上新高，其中636億甚至沒有明定刪減項目，反而要求行政院自行刪減，可知在野黨根本是憑感覺刪預算，完全為刪而刪！","5月底時，行政院艱難地決定統刪一般性補助款27%來達成立法院對總預算的刪減額度。6月初本席在財政委員會質詢這個問題，要求中央重視全國區域均衡發展，盡快以追加預算協助我們這些經濟弱勢的縣市。很高興行政院有聽取本席建議，上星期四院會通過「114年度中央政府總預算追加預算案」，總共編列額度878.4億的追加預算，而且是以「原預算收支賸餘」支應，不至於讓國家新增債務。","本席呼籲同樣身為立法委員的朝野同事，一起來支持這筆追加預算，讓我們的國家能夠良好地運作下去，不要影響地方重要的基礎服務和建設經費！","事實上，為了各地方的均衡發展，《地方制度法》第69條第1項前段及《財政收支劃分法》（簡稱《財劃法》）第30條第1項規定，中央可以針對「財力較差」之地方政府，酌予補助，而中央補助地方政府是用中央的錢，原本就有彈性調整的權限，行政院依政事需求及有限的預算空間，刪減一般性補助款並未違法。","而不論是中央政府對地方政府提供補助，或透過統籌分配稅款來劫富濟貧，都是財政上進行「地方政府財力的重新分配」，以均衡各地方發展的機制，稱為「府際財政移轉」，兩者必須同時考量。","正因為去年底藍白多數暴力地修正《財劃法》，不僅排擠了中央政府的可運用預算，分配指標更是只圖利北部都市，忽略農業縣市的發展！從最後的分配結果也可以看到，我們台南非常吃虧──在六都中，一直分配到最少統籌分配稅款，而《財劃法》修法後，我們還是增加最少，跟台北市比起來，簡直是人比人、氣死人。","最不合理的是，台北市已經是全台灣最有錢的地方政府，市長蔣萬安還是一直向中央要錢，反對減少一般性補助款、反對提高租金補貼自籌額度，其它地方政府情何以堪！","事實上，從往年中央補助款、統籌分配稅款的分配情形可以看到，統籌分配稅款主要還是給有錢的直轄市或北部縣市，更別說《財劃法》修正後，統籌分配稅款分配指標依然有利於都會地區，將使富者愈富、貧者愈貧；真正能均衡各地方政府財力的還是中央補助款，這也是為什麼我們這些農業大縣，台南、高雄、彰化、屏東相對依賴中央補助款。","台南市人口185萬，台北市則是245萬。但是2025年中央分配給地方的統籌分配稅款，總共是4,461億元，台北市會拿到707億元，而台南市是327億元，不到台北市的一半；一般補助款一共是1,865億元，台北市可以拿101億，台南市拿138億，只比台北市多一點點。《財劃法》被在野黨修惡之後，台北市未來可以領1千多億統籌分配稅款，根本不差1百億的補助款，但是這筆錢對於台南等財力弱勢地方卻很有用，中央應該因應《財政收支劃分法》修法後，各地方政府分配到統籌分配稅款的變化，進一步強化補助款的重分配功能。","綜上所述，基於《財劃法》修正後，可能擴大南北、城鄉差距，本席要求中央通盤檢討對地方補助款機制，強化「府際財政移轉」、「均衡各地方政府財力」之重分配功能，才能真正地保障真正弱勢的地區和民眾！"],["委員王正旭書面質詢：","針對「全額撥付114年度對地方政府之一般性補助款及原住民族地區基本設施維持費等相關事宜」專案報告，114年度中央政府總預算經立法院審查後，大幅刪減2,076億元，其中行政院尚須自行調整刪減636億元。藍白兩黨不顧基層民生，以政治算計為優先，造成地方政府財源嚴重受損，然行政院作為執政團隊，亦有責任提出具體因應方案，保障民眾生活與健康不受影響。爰此提出下列質詢：","一、刪減方式影響城鄉平衡","行政院照立法院的通案統刪方式，對各縣市的一般性補助款統一刪減27%，未能反映各地財政能力及實際需求。此舉恐使財政體質較弱之縣市、尤其偏鄉及原鄉，承受更大壓力，加劇城鄉差距。請問行政院，在既有限制下，是否有配套措施保障弱勢縣市？如何避免城鄉落差進一步惡化？是否能保證長照、醫療與公共衛生不會因統刪而縮水？","二、教育、社會福利及基礎建設經費之經費保障","考量一般性補助款之增裕財源項目多未設定用途，636億優先調減增裕財源補助529億，惟仍有教育、社會福利、基本設施遭調減107億元。請問行政院，是否已規劃專案或跨部會調度，以確保教育、長照與公共衛生等社會福利經費不致中斷？","三、地方舉債並非解方","行政院建議地方透過舉債因應，雖僅有苗栗縣無舉債空間，惟其他縣市若被迫舉債，也將造成財政惡化。請問行政院，是否有更積極的方案支持高齡化、醫療不足、基礎設施落後之縣市，確保公共服務不中斷？","四、原住民族地區建設保障","原住民族地區基礎設施長期不足，此次刪減恐影響飲水、污水、垃圾處理、防災設施等維護經費，進一步加深族群不平等。請問行政院，是否能針對原住民族地區提出具體保障方案，避免刪減影響原鄉公共建設與健康權益？"],["主席：再下來請登記第18號羅智強委員，請質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":292,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-25","speakers":["韓國瑜","陳昭姿","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","黃國昌","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱鎮軍","陳亭妃","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","許宇甄","張雅琳","賴惠員","王正旭","羅智強","陳培瑜","賴士葆"],"page_start":213,"meetingDate":["2025-08-19"],"gazette_id":"1147101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147101_00004","1147101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第25次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「全額撥付114年度對地方政府之一般性補助款及原住民族地區基本設施維持費\n等相關事宜」專案報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147101_00005"}}}