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0.939}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"待\", \"start\": 753.038, \"end\": 753.219, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 753.219, \"end\": 753.44, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 753.44, \"end\": 754.063, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 754.063, \"end\": 754.083, \"score\": 0.136}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,203 --> 00:00:08,269\n議委委員陳昭智委員發言謝謝主席有請部長紅部長請紅部長\n\n2\n00:00:21,229 --> 00:00:39,885\n陳委員好部長早久違了請問去年年底那我們就通過了這個立法院三讀通過就業服務法的修法那放寬了80歲及癌症二期以上不要經過這個80量表的評估可以聘僱外籍看護當時勞動部說外籍看護來源不足\n\n3\n00:00:40,546 --> 00:00:59,226\n恐會造成這個排擠還有中性家庭請不到人長照體系崩壞請問部長既然這個修法影響這麼大你們也覺得至愛難行那為什麼庭審院不提復議呢你們有提復議嗎你們有提復議嗎在這個案子沒有提復議你沒有提復議這麼至愛難行你沒有提復議\n\n4\n00:01:04,161 --> 00:01:12,986\n那可見你們心裡知道嘛就是說巴士量表的確造成很多人的困擾而且整個民意是趨向如此嘛所以你們沒有提富裕是這樣嗎\n\n5\n00:01:13,888 --> 00:01:32,324\n那個跟陳委員說明第一個當時在修法通過以後我們就判斷那我們是願意來進行配套的準備用配套的準備來盡力的降低可能會造成的衝擊跟影響因為前會經過兩位部長大家都說這個非常至愛難行我想說至愛難行你們就來複譯複譯就是你們也常規做的\n\n6\n00:01:39,670 --> 00:01:55,863\n我們的確認為他會有一些衝擊那這些衝擊勞動部願意來規劃配套來去降盡力的降低這些衝擊7月6大罷免前一天你發了一篇文指責在野黨通過許多爭議的法案包括\n\n7\n00:01:56,764 --> 00:02:16,707\n救福法80歲免巴士量表的這個法案你說這是爭議法案喔你說這些法案有一套操作模式快速過水市的初委員會跳過韓院長主持的協商限制表決前逐條的發言表決前才拿出最高機密的版本我認為你的說法\n\n8\n00:02:17,668 --> 00:02:46,666\n很多不是事實我要一一來破解跟拆除部長您說委員會過水跳過協商我們來看一下這個救護法免巴士量表的修法過程總共開了一次公聽會三天的委員會的審查再加上召委召開的這個黨團協商立法院執行刑事法可沒有說協商一定要喊院長主持這樣還不算充分討論嗎光是為了一條修法\n\n9\n00:02:47,677 --> 00:03:05,207\n就討論了三次的委員會你知道其他的再生醫療法還有人體生物資料庫條例三四十條都討論也不過三天而已耶委員我講得很清楚其實原本這個案子在立法院是有派韓院長主持的\n\n10\n00:03:06,047 --> 00:03:19,694\n朝野協商的但後來這個朝野協商就被跳過了那我們原本想要帶著一個大家其實我們覺得可能更能夠執行或對衝擊會更小的方案到朝野協商來跟委員來討論當時我們做了這個準備\n\n11\n00:03:23,156 --> 00:03:37,526\n結果這場協商就被跳過後來就直接表決了我覺得這個程序的過程會讓我們覺得好像少了一些像少了一些其實可以找到更好的處理方案的機會我講的是這件事情\n\n12\n00:03:53,276 --> 00:04:10,889\n我現在也是幹事長我都見證這件事你也當過幹事長齁如果貴黨柯總召不簽名的話這個根本協商是破局的所以你說在野黨都推給在野黨限制表決前的逐條發言我只要告訴你這簽名啊簽名啊三黨都簽名啊\n\n13\n00:04:11,269 --> 00:04:34,375\n不是像你說的那個樣子就這個案子本身就把46條修法本身我自己很清楚我們當時是帶著我們覺得更能夠執行或讓衝擊更小的方案想要到朝野協商裡面來表達跟委員好好坐下來談可是當時的這個朝野協商確實是被跳過了也就是失去了這個更能夠好好討論的機會這是我覺得遺憾的地方\n\n14\n00:04:34,775 --> 00:04:43,797\n你說表決前才拿出最高機密版本你也當過幹部難道柯總召沒有教你嗎立法院的議事運作看一下柯總召怎麼講的請暫停聲音時間請暫停\n\n15\n00:05:05,970 --> 00:05:22,688\n主委會絕對不是綜藝版本最後版本是什麼最後版本是在表情那一剎那各黨提出版本才是最後版本嘛那時才是最後啊主委會絕對不是綜藝版本\n\n16\n00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:47,446\n好那我就講部長你聽到了柯總召說表決前那一剎那拿出來的還是最後版本這個其實每個黨他都有所謂的最高機密版本大家都有只是說最後的那個再修正動議的版本其實跟原來不會差很大只是一些微調所以我要說部長\n\n17\n00:05:48,246 --> 00:06:06,359\n可惜啦部長可惜你726的那個催票文沒什麼效果啦所以我勸你身為部長少講政治多談政策啦否則這個禮拜六大罷免可能又要再大失敗喔讓我說明一下我作為一個行政首長\n\n18\n00:06:07,844 --> 00:06:31,145\n我当时想表达的事情是想要争取能够让更多的行政机构可以好好的讨论政策跟法案的机会我其实在表达的是这件事情所以当时没有办法在超越协商里面好好表达我觉得对于最后的结果让我觉得这是比较可惜的地方我是作为一个行政首长希望能够争取\n\n19\n00:06:31,986 --> 00:06:53,335\n有這樣子好好討論政策的機會我的初衷是這個我們的主題是有媒體報導勞動部把這個這個免除這個巴士量把評估就新申請這個外籍看護人數列為最高機密所以讓人家質疑啊你當時一直喊說會造成搶工會造成長照體系的這個崩壞好像修法一通過天就要塌下來一樣\n\n20\n00:06:54,215 --> 00:07:14,466\n那現在是這樣嗎請問到8月1號到現在為止用免憑巴士量表的申請外籍考問人數有多少你說有多少天有塌下來嗎最新的數據到8月17號目前是就是說因為修法而新取得資格而有來申請的大概是1450左右\n\n21\n00:07:20,689 --> 00:07:41,866\n那但是我們的確看到在第二週的數據是第一週數據的兩倍第二週的數據是第一週數據的兩倍那這意思是說到底接下來的趨勢會怎麼樣走坦白說還需要一段時間觀察我們當然希望沒什麼衝擊但是人民不能接受的是你不要用恐嚇的方式來做你來回應你不想做的事\n\n22\n00:07:41,886 --> 00:08:06,830\n委員我並沒有用恐嚇方式我們做的事情是為可能會的衝擊做因應的準備我們不是恐嚇我們我們這6個月很努力在做的事情是為可能會發生的衝擊去做足我們的衝擊準備的因應的工作這是我們做我們不是只是恐嚇我們並沒有恐嚇主席我我他佔用我太多時間了我那個\n\n23\n00:08:09,124 --> 00:08:32,627\n我前幾天看到新聞部長有提到說針對外界關注開放印度移工來補充看護移工的事情勞動部說因為印度是新的移工來源國那目前我方跟印度政府在今年初的協商是希望尤其從製造業跟傳統產業開放至少1000名進來那看到這裡我就有疑問勞動部預期要補充很多外籍看護人員\n\n24\n00:08:33,327 --> 00:08:54,732\n為什麼年初跟印度政府談判的時候沒有列入考量呢沒有列入這個部分為什麼你不列入這個外籍看護呢跟委員說明確實當時在討論印度移工的時候社會普遍現在比較能夠接比較能夠有共識接受的是印度移工先進到製造業跟這些傳產裡面那為什麼這個是法通過了你不做你說有困難然後談論談判的時候又不把它納入\n\n25\n00:09:01,604 --> 00:09:20,867\n不是談判委員你誤會了當時在印度移工引進的時候包括來立法院報告當時很清楚就是跟立法院說明會印度移工如果進來的話會先以製造業或這些傳產作為優先的這個引進的場域當時就是跟立法院說的很清楚的事情\n\n26\n00:09:21,631 --> 00:09:48,173\n反正部長去年就三讀通過了如果你真的想像你們擔心的衝擊那你應該想辦法增加來源啊不只是印度還有其他的來源國不是去刻意營造一個在立法之後你去營造整個社會一種搶外籍這個看護人增加來源國的量能增加來源國供給引進的量能這是我們六大配套措施裡面非常重要的一部分\n\n27\n00:09:48,874 --> 00:10:15,186\n你在學育健保養我就給你這麼多移工好你們自己去搶然後創造這個社會這種氛圍害怕的氛圍委員我要跟你說我們花在這六個月時間花了很多的力氣跟四個移工來源國去協商希望他們增加引進的數量我們在這四個月不斷的跟四個來源國協商這件事情就是希望增加引進的這供給量這是我們配套措施裡面講得很清楚的部分\n\n28\n00:10:16,008 --> 00:10:36,932\n我希望你不要將對長者的照護當作一個政治這個操作或攻擊我完全沒有把它當作政治操作的工具我們是很努力的在針對衝擊來進行配套的準備這樣講對我們的同仁是不公平的我們的同仁在這六個月的時間裡面多麼努力在這件事情上包括增加引進的量\n\n29\n00:10:37,392 --> 00:10:59,430\n引進一千名勞工不是今年初談的是去年談的去年何沛山部長就開始談了開放巴士輛票的修法已經討論了一整年了你們有相當充分的時間去做準備所以你們年底通過就應該跟京都政府協商啊你完全沒有把這個看護工納在裡面啊我們通過以後就馬上跟來源國協商增加供給量\n\n30\n00:11:03,475 --> 00:11:14,829\n去年底12月31號三讀通過以後我們就馬上在1月的時候就跟來源國開始在接洽希望能夠增加引進的供給的量這是我們在做的事情\n\n31\n00:11:16,100 --> 00:11:38,767\n你們現在提出的六套配套措施老師說我必須給予肯定啦這些做法當然就是跟時間會改變但是該肯定我給你肯定但是我希望未來各行政部門首長都一樣不要存著僥倖的心態不要存著說國會要改組我可以翻案的心態就好好面對立法院三讀通過的這個法條好好去面對它準備它\n\n32\n00:11:39,947 --> 00:11:52,932\n三讀通過後在12月底通過後我們馬上就開始準備從1月不管是在配套不管是輕重的這個分流也包括是供給量我們就開始準備但是是12月底才三讀通過啊\n\n33\n00:12:01,499 --> 00:12:28,881\n我們就一直在醞釀那個法查的過程當中你們就當作說就通過以後也不做你到我辦公室來也是告訴我說這個至愛難行委員我到你的辦公室是告訴你我們會進行哪些配套當時到你辦公室提供給你的文件我都還留著我就是告訴我再告訴你我們做輕重分流包括來源國的增量這都是我們的配套重要的配套之一我到你辦公室的時候都很清楚的告訴委員\n\n34\n00:12:29,502 --> 00:12:34,083\n是爭議性的法案好嗎就面對它處理它好好對待它好謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n203\t8269\t議委委員陳昭智委員發言謝謝主席有請部長紅部長 請紅部長\n21229\t39885\t陳委員好 部長早 久違了請問去年年底 那我們就通過了這個立法院三讀通過就業服務法的修法那放寬了80歲及癌症二期以上不要經過這個80量表的評估可以聘僱外籍看護當時勞動部說外籍看護來源不足\n40546\t59226\t恐會造成這個排擠還有中性家庭請不到人長照體系崩壞請問部長既然這個修法影響這麼大你們也覺得至愛難行那為什麼庭審院不提復議呢你們有提復議嗎你們有提復議嗎在這個案子沒有提復議你沒有提復議這麼至愛難行你沒有提復議\n64161\t72986\t那可見你們心裡知道嘛就是說巴士量表的確造成很多人的困擾而且整個民意是趨向如此嘛所以你們沒有提富裕是這樣嗎\n73888\t92324\t那個跟陳委員說明第一個當時在修法通過以後我們就判斷那我們是願意來進行配套的準備用配套的準備來盡力的降低可能會造成的衝擊跟影響 因為前會經過兩位部長大家都說這個非常至愛難行我想說至愛難行你們就來複譯複譯就是你們也常規做的\n99670\t115863\t我們的確認為他會有一些衝擊那這些衝擊 勞動部願意來規劃配套來去降盡力的降低這些衝擊7月6大罷免前一天你發了一篇文指責在野黨通過許多爭議的法案包括\n116764\t136707\t救福法80歲免巴士量表的這個法案你說這是爭議法案喔你說這些法案有一套操作模式快速過水市的初委員會跳過韓院長主持的協商限制表決前逐條的發言表決前才拿出最高機密的版本我認為你的說法\n137668\t166666\t很多不是事實我要一一來破解跟拆除部長您說委員會過水跳過協商我們來看一下這個救護法免巴士量表的修法過程總共開了一次公聽會三天的委員會的審查再加上召委召開的這個黨團協商立法院執行刑事法可沒有說協商一定要喊院長主持這樣還不算充分討論嗎光是為了一條修法\n167677\t185207\t就討論了三次的委員會你知道其他的再生醫療法還有人體生物資料庫條例三四十條都討論也不過三天而已耶委員我講得很清楚其實原本這個案子在立法院是有派韓院長主持的\n186047\t199694\t朝野協商的但後來這個朝野協商就被跳過了那我們原本想要帶著一個大家其實我們覺得可能更能夠執行或對衝擊會更小的方案到朝野協商來跟委員來討論當時我們做了這個準備\n203156\t217526\t結果這場協商就被跳過後來就直接表決了我覺得這個程序的過程會讓我們覺得好像少了一些像少了一些其實可以找到更好的處理方案的機會我講的是這件事情\n233276\t250889\t我現在也是幹事長 我都見證這件事你也當過幹事長齁如果貴黨柯總召不簽名的話這個根本協商是破局的所以你說在野黨 都推給在野黨限制表決前的逐條發言我只要告訴你 這簽名啊 簽名啊三黨都簽名啊\n251269\t274375\t不是像你說的那個樣子就這個案子本身就把46條修法本身我自己很清楚我們當時是帶著我們覺得更能夠執行或讓衝擊更小的方案想要到朝野協商裡面來表達跟委員好好坐下來談可是當時的這個朝野協商確實是被跳過了也就是失去了這個更能夠好好討論的機會這是我覺得遺憾的地方\n274775\t283797\t你說表決前才拿出最高機密版本你也當過幹部難道柯總召沒有教你嗎立法院的議事運作看一下柯總召怎麼講的請暫停 聲音時間請暫停\n305970\t322688\t主委會絕對不是綜藝版本最後版本是什麼最後版本是在表情那一剎那各黨提出版本才是最後版本嘛那時才是最後啊主委會絕對不是綜藝版本\n326400\t347446\t好那我就講部長你聽到了柯總召說表決前那一剎那拿出來的還是最後版本這個其實每個黨他都有所謂的最高機密版本大家都有只是說最後的那個再修正動議的版本其實跟原來不會差很大只是一些微調所以我要說部長\n348246\t366359\t可惜啦 部長可惜你726的那個催票文沒什麼效果啦所以我勸你 身為部長少講政治 多談政策啦否則這個禮拜六大罷免可能又要再大失敗喔讓我說明一下我作為一個行政首長\n367844\t391145\t我当时想表达的事情是想要争取能够让更多的行政机构可以好好的讨论政策跟法案的机会我其实在表达的是这件事情所以当时没有办法在超越协商里面好好表达我觉得对于最后的结果让我觉得这是比较可惜的地方我是作为一个行政首长希望能够争取\n391986\t413335\t有這樣子好好討論政策的機會我的初衷是這個我們的主題是有媒體報導勞動部把這個這個免除這個巴士量把評估就新申請這個外籍看護人數列為最高機密所以讓人家質疑啊你當時一直喊說會造成搶工會造成長照體系的這個崩壞好像修法一通過天就要塌下來一樣\n414215\t434466\t那現在是這樣嗎 請問到8月1號到現在為止用免憑巴士量表的申請外籍考問人數有多少你說有多少 天有塌下來嗎最新的數據到8月17號目前是 就是說因為修法而新取得資格而有來申請的大概是1450左右\n440689\t461866\t那但是我們的確看到在第二週的數據是第一週數據的兩倍第二週的數據是第一週數據的兩倍那這意思是說到底接下來的趨勢會怎麼樣走坦白說還需要一段時間觀察我們當然希望沒什麼衝擊但是人民不能接受的是你不要用恐嚇的方式來做你來回應你不想做的事\n461886\t486830\t委員我並沒有用恐嚇方式我們做的事情是為可能會的衝擊做因應的準備我們不是恐嚇我們我們這6個月很努力在做的事情是為可能會發生的衝擊去做足我們的衝擊準備的因應的工作這是我們做我們不是只是恐嚇我們並沒有恐嚇主席我我他佔用我太多時間了我那個\n489124\t512627\t我前幾天看到新聞部長有提到說針對外界關注開放印度移工來補充看護移工的事情勞動部說因為印度是新的移工來源國那目前我方跟印度政府在今年初的協商是希望尤其從製造業跟傳統產業開放至少1000名進來那看到這裡我就有疑問勞動部預期要補充很多外籍看護人員\n513327\t534732\t為什麼年初跟印度政府談判的時候沒有列入考量呢沒有列入這個部分為什麼你不列入這個外籍看護呢跟委員說明確實當時在討論印度移工的時候社會普遍現在比較能夠接比較能夠有共識接受的是印度移工先進到製造業跟這些傳產裡面那為什麼這個是法通過了你不做你說有困難然後談論談判的時候又不把它納入\n541604\t560867\t不是談判委員你誤會了當時在印度移工引進的時候包括來立法院報告當時很清楚就是跟立法院說明會印度移工如果進來的話會先以製造業或這些傳產作為優先的這個引進的場域當時就是跟立法院說的很清楚的事情\n561631\t588173\t反正部長去年就三讀通過了如果你真的想像你們擔心的衝擊那你應該想辦法增加來源啊不只是印度還有其他的來源國不是去刻意營造一個在立法之後你去營造整個社會一種搶外籍這個看護人增加來源國的量能增加來源國供給引進的量能這是我們六大配套措施裡面非常重要的一部分\n588874\t615186\t你在學育健保養 我就給你這麼多移工 好 你們自己去搶然後創造這個社會這種氛圍 害怕的氛圍委員我要跟你說 我們花在這六個月時間花了很多的力氣跟四個移工來源國去協商希望他們增加引進的數量我們在這四個月不斷的跟四個來源國協商這件事情就是希望增加引進的這供給量這是我們配套措施裡面講得很清楚的部分\n616008\t636932\t我希望你不要將對長者的照護當作一個政治這個操作或攻擊我完全沒有把它當作政治操作的工具我們是很努力的在針對衝擊來進行配套的準備這樣講對我們的同仁是不公平的我們的同仁在這六個月的時間裡面多麼努力在這件事情上包括增加引進的量\n637392\t659430\t引進一千名勞工不是今年初談的 是去年談的去年何沛山部長就開始談了開放巴士輛票的修法已經討論了一整年了你們有相當充分的時間去做準備所以你們年底通過就應該跟京都政府協商啊你完全沒有把這個看護工納在裡面啊我們通過以後就馬上跟來源國協商增加供給量\n663475\t674829\t去年底12月31號三讀通過以後我們就馬上在1月的時候就跟來源國開始在接洽希望能夠增加引進的供給的量這是我們在做的事情\n676100\t698767\t你們現在提出的六套配套措施老師說我必須給予肯定啦這些做法當然就是跟時間會改變但是該肯定我給你肯定但是我希望未來各行政部門首長都一樣不要存著僥倖的心態不要存著說國會要改組我可以翻案的心態就好好面對立法院三讀通過的這個法條好好去面對它 準備它\n699947\t712932\t三讀通過後在12月底通過後我們馬上就開始準備從1月不管是在配套不管是輕重的這個分流也包括是供給量我們就開始準備但是是12月底才三讀通過啊\n721499\t748881\t我們就一直在醞釀那個法查的過程當中你們就當作說就通過以後也不做你到我辦公室來也是告訴我說這個至愛難行委員我到你的辦公室是告訴你我們會進行哪些配套當時到你辦公室提供給你的文件我都還留著我就是告訴我再告訴你我們做輕重分流包括來源國的增量這都是我們的配套重要的配套之一我到你辦公室的時候都很清楚的告訴委員\n749502\t754083\t是爭議性的法案 好嗎就面對它 處理它 好好對待它好 謝謝部長\n","txt":"議委委員陳昭智委員發言謝謝主席有請部長紅部長 請紅部長\n陳委員好 部長早 久違了請問去年年底 那我們就通過了這個立法院三讀通過就業服務法的修法那放寬了80歲及癌症二期以上不要經過這個80量表的評估可以聘僱外籍看護當時勞動部說外籍看護來源不足\n恐會造成這個排擠還有中性家庭請不到人長照體系崩壞請問部長既然這個修法影響這麼大你們也覺得至愛難行那為什麼庭審院不提復議呢你們有提復議嗎你們有提復議嗎在這個案子沒有提復議你沒有提復議這麼至愛難行你沒有提復議\n那可見你們心裡知道嘛就是說巴士量表的確造成很多人的困擾而且整個民意是趨向如此嘛所以你們沒有提富裕是這樣嗎\n那個跟陳委員說明第一個當時在修法通過以後我們就判斷那我們是願意來進行配套的準備用配套的準備來盡力的降低可能會造成的衝擊跟影響 因為前會經過兩位部長大家都說這個非常至愛難行我想說至愛難行你們就來複譯複譯就是你們也常規做的\n我們的確認為他會有一些衝擊那這些衝擊 勞動部願意來規劃配套來去降盡力的降低這些衝擊7月6大罷免前一天你發了一篇文指責在野黨通過許多爭議的法案包括\n救福法80歲免巴士量表的這個法案你說這是爭議法案喔你說這些法案有一套操作模式快速過水市的初委員會跳過韓院長主持的協商限制表決前逐條的發言表決前才拿出最高機密的版本我認為你的說法\n很多不是事實我要一一來破解跟拆除部長您說委員會過水跳過協商我們來看一下這個救護法免巴士量表的修法過程總共開了一次公聽會三天的委員會的審查再加上召委召開的這個黨團協商立法院執行刑事法可沒有說協商一定要喊院長主持這樣還不算充分討論嗎光是為了一條修法\n就討論了三次的委員會你知道其他的再生醫療法還有人體生物資料庫條例三四十條都討論也不過三天而已耶委員我講得很清楚其實原本這個案子在立法院是有派韓院長主持的\n朝野協商的但後來這個朝野協商就被跳過了那我們原本想要帶著一個大家其實我們覺得可能更能夠執行或對衝擊會更小的方案到朝野協商來跟委員來討論當時我們做了這個準備\n結果這場協商就被跳過後來就直接表決了我覺得這個程序的過程會讓我們覺得好像少了一些像少了一些其實可以找到更好的處理方案的機會我講的是這件事情\n我現在也是幹事長 我都見證這件事你也當過幹事長齁如果貴黨柯總召不簽名的話這個根本協商是破局的所以你說在野黨 都推給在野黨限制表決前的逐條發言我只要告訴你 這簽名啊 簽名啊三黨都簽名啊\n不是像你說的那個樣子就這個案子本身就把46條修法本身我自己很清楚我們當時是帶著我們覺得更能夠執行或讓衝擊更小的方案想要到朝野協商裡面來表達跟委員好好坐下來談可是當時的這個朝野協商確實是被跳過了也就是失去了這個更能夠好好討論的機會這是我覺得遺憾的地方\n你說表決前才拿出最高機密版本你也當過幹部難道柯總召沒有教你嗎立法院的議事運作看一下柯總召怎麼講的請暫停 聲音時間請暫停\n主委會絕對不是綜藝版本最後版本是什麼最後版本是在表情那一剎那各黨提出版本才是最後版本嘛那時才是最後啊主委會絕對不是綜藝版本\n好那我就講部長你聽到了柯總召說表決前那一剎那拿出來的還是最後版本這個其實每個黨他都有所謂的最高機密版本大家都有只是說最後的那個再修正動議的版本其實跟原來不會差很大只是一些微調所以我要說部長\n可惜啦 部長可惜你726的那個催票文沒什麼效果啦所以我勸你 身為部長少講政治 多談政策啦否則這個禮拜六大罷免可能又要再大失敗喔讓我說明一下我作為一個行政首長\n我当时想表达的事情是想要争取能够让更多的行政机构可以好好的讨论政策跟法案的机会我其实在表达的是这件事情所以当时没有办法在超越协商里面好好表达我觉得对于最后的结果让我觉得这是比较可惜的地方我是作为一个行政首长希望能够争取\n有這樣子好好討論政策的機會我的初衷是這個我們的主題是有媒體報導勞動部把這個這個免除這個巴士量把評估就新申請這個外籍看護人數列為最高機密所以讓人家質疑啊你當時一直喊說會造成搶工會造成長照體系的這個崩壞好像修法一通過天就要塌下來一樣\n那現在是這樣嗎 請問到8月1號到現在為止用免憑巴士量表的申請外籍考問人數有多少你說有多少 天有塌下來嗎最新的數據到8月17號目前是 就是說因為修法而新取得資格而有來申請的大概是1450左右\n那但是我們的確看到在第二週的數據是第一週數據的兩倍第二週的數據是第一週數據的兩倍那這意思是說到底接下來的趨勢會怎麼樣走坦白說還需要一段時間觀察我們當然希望沒什麼衝擊但是人民不能接受的是你不要用恐嚇的方式來做你來回應你不想做的事\n委員我並沒有用恐嚇方式我們做的事情是為可能會的衝擊做因應的準備我們不是恐嚇我們我們這6個月很努力在做的事情是為可能會發生的衝擊去做足我們的衝擊準備的因應的工作這是我們做我們不是只是恐嚇我們並沒有恐嚇主席我我他佔用我太多時間了我那個\n我前幾天看到新聞部長有提到說針對外界關注開放印度移工來補充看護移工的事情勞動部說因為印度是新的移工來源國那目前我方跟印度政府在今年初的協商是希望尤其從製造業跟傳統產業開放至少1000名進來那看到這裡我就有疑問勞動部預期要補充很多外籍看護人員\n為什麼年初跟印度政府談判的時候沒有列入考量呢沒有列入這個部分為什麼你不列入這個外籍看護呢跟委員說明確實當時在討論印度移工的時候社會普遍現在比較能夠接比較能夠有共識接受的是印度移工先進到製造業跟這些傳產裡面那為什麼這個是法通過了你不做你說有困難然後談論談判的時候又不把它納入\n不是談判委員你誤會了當時在印度移工引進的時候包括來立法院報告當時很清楚就是跟立法院說明會印度移工如果進來的話會先以製造業或這些傳產作為優先的這個引進的場域當時就是跟立法院說的很清楚的事情\n反正部長去年就三讀通過了如果你真的想像你們擔心的衝擊那你應該想辦法增加來源啊不只是印度還有其他的來源國不是去刻意營造一個在立法之後你去營造整個社會一種搶外籍這個看護人增加來源國的量能增加來源國供給引進的量能這是我們六大配套措施裡面非常重要的一部分\n你在學育健保養 我就給你這麼多移工 好 你們自己去搶然後創造這個社會這種氛圍 害怕的氛圍委員我要跟你說 我們花在這六個月時間花了很多的力氣跟四個移工來源國去協商希望他們增加引進的數量我們在這四個月不斷的跟四個來源國協商這件事情就是希望增加引進的這供給量這是我們配套措施裡面講得很清楚的部分\n我希望你不要將對長者的照護當作一個政治這個操作或攻擊我完全沒有把它當作政治操作的工具我們是很努力的在針對衝擊來進行配套的準備這樣講對我們的同仁是不公平的我們的同仁在這六個月的時間裡面多麼努力在這件事情上包括增加引進的量\n引進一千名勞工不是今年初談的 是去年談的去年何沛山部長就開始談了開放巴士輛票的修法已經討論了一整年了你們有相當充分的時間去做準備所以你們年底通過就應該跟京都政府協商啊你完全沒有把這個看護工納在裡面啊我們通過以後就馬上跟來源國協商增加供給量\n去年底12月31號三讀通過以後我們就馬上在1月的時候就跟來源國開始在接洽希望能夠增加引進的供給的量這是我們在做的事情\n你們現在提出的六套配套措施老師說我必須給予肯定啦這些做法當然就是跟時間會改變但是該肯定我給你肯定但是我希望未來各行政部門首長都一樣不要存著僥倖的心態不要存著說國會要改組我可以翻案的心態就好好面對立法院三讀通過的這個法條好好去面對它 準備它\n三讀通過後在12月底通過後我們馬上就開始準備從1月不管是在配套不管是輕重的這個分流也包括是供給量我們就開始準備但是是12月底才三讀通過啊\n我們就一直在醞釀那個法查的過程當中你們就當作說就通過以後也不做你到我辦公室來也是告訴我說這個至愛難行委員我到你的辦公室是告訴你我們會進行哪些配套當時到你辦公室提供給你的文件我都還留著我就是告訴我再告訴你我們做輕重分流包括來源國的增量這都是我們的配套重要的配套之一我到你辦公室的時候都很清楚的告訴委員\n是爭議性的法案 好嗎就面對它 處理它 好好對待它好 謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.203 --> 00:08.269\n議委委員陳昭智委員發言謝謝主席有請部長紅部長請紅部長\n\n00:21.229 --> 00:39.885\n陳委員好部長早久違了請問去年年底那我們就通過了這個立法院三讀通過就業服務法的修法那放寬了80歲及癌症二期以上不要經過這個80量表的評估可以聘僱外籍看護當時勞動部說外籍看護來源不足\n\n00:40.546 --> 00:59.226\n恐會造成這個排擠還有中性家庭請不到人長照體系崩壞請問部長既然這個修法影響這麼大你們也覺得至愛難行那為什麼庭審院不提復議呢你們有提復議嗎你們有提復議嗎在這個案子沒有提復議你沒有提復議這麼至愛難行你沒有提復議\n\n01:04.161 --> 01:12.986\n那可見你們心裡知道嘛就是說巴士量表的確造成很多人的困擾而且整個民意是趨向如此嘛所以你們沒有提富裕是這樣嗎\n\n01:13.888 --> 01:32.324\n那個跟陳委員說明第一個當時在修法通過以後我們就判斷那我們是願意來進行配套的準備用配套的準備來盡力的降低可能會造成的衝擊跟影響因為前會經過兩位部長大家都說這個非常至愛難行我想說至愛難行你們就來複譯複譯就是你們也常規做的\n\n01:39.670 --> 01:55.863\n我們的確認為他會有一些衝擊那這些衝擊勞動部願意來規劃配套來去降盡力的降低這些衝擊7月6大罷免前一天你發了一篇文指責在野黨通過許多爭議的法案包括\n\n01:56.764 --> 02:16.707\n救福法80歲免巴士量表的這個法案你說這是爭議法案喔你說這些法案有一套操作模式快速過水市的初委員會跳過韓院長主持的協商限制表決前逐條的發言表決前才拿出最高機密的版本我認為你的說法\n\n02:17.668 --> 02:46.666\n很多不是事實我要一一來破解跟拆除部長您說委員會過水跳過協商我們來看一下這個救護法免巴士量表的修法過程總共開了一次公聽會三天的委員會的審查再加上召委召開的這個黨團協商立法院執行刑事法可沒有說協商一定要喊院長主持這樣還不算充分討論嗎光是為了一條修法\n\n02:47.677 --> 03:05.207\n就討論了三次的委員會你知道其他的再生醫療法還有人體生物資料庫條例三四十條都討論也不過三天而已耶委員我講得很清楚其實原本這個案子在立法院是有派韓院長主持的\n\n03:06.047 --> 03:19.694\n朝野協商的但後來這個朝野協商就被跳過了那我們原本想要帶著一個大家其實我們覺得可能更能夠執行或對衝擊會更小的方案到朝野協商來跟委員來討論當時我們做了這個準備\n\n03:23.156 --> 03:37.526\n結果這場協商就被跳過後來就直接表決了我覺得這個程序的過程會讓我們覺得好像少了一些像少了一些其實可以找到更好的處理方案的機會我講的是這件事情\n\n03:53.276 --> 04:10.889\n我現在也是幹事長我都見證這件事你也當過幹事長齁如果貴黨柯總召不簽名的話這個根本協商是破局的所以你說在野黨都推給在野黨限制表決前的逐條發言我只要告訴你這簽名啊簽名啊三黨都簽名啊\n\n04:11.269 --> 04:34.375\n不是像你說的那個樣子就這個案子本身就把46條修法本身我自己很清楚我們當時是帶著我們覺得更能夠執行或讓衝擊更小的方案想要到朝野協商裡面來表達跟委員好好坐下來談可是當時的這個朝野協商確實是被跳過了也就是失去了這個更能夠好好討論的機會這是我覺得遺憾的地方\n\n04:34.775 --> 04:43.797\n你說表決前才拿出最高機密版本你也當過幹部難道柯總召沒有教你嗎立法院的議事運作看一下柯總召怎麼講的請暫停聲音時間請暫停\n\n05:05.970 --> 05:22.688\n主委會絕對不是綜藝版本最後版本是什麼最後版本是在表情那一剎那各黨提出版本才是最後版本嘛那時才是最後啊主委會絕對不是綜藝版本\n\n05:26.400 --> 05:47.446\n好那我就講部長你聽到了柯總召說表決前那一剎那拿出來的還是最後版本這個其實每個黨他都有所謂的最高機密版本大家都有只是說最後的那個再修正動議的版本其實跟原來不會差很大只是一些微調所以我要說部長\n\n05:48.246 --> 06:06.359\n可惜啦部長可惜你726的那個催票文沒什麼效果啦所以我勸你身為部長少講政治多談政策啦否則這個禮拜六大罷免可能又要再大失敗喔讓我說明一下我作為一個行政首長\n\n06:07.844 --> 06:31.145\n我当时想表达的事情是想要争取能够让更多的行政机构可以好好的讨论政策跟法案的机会我其实在表达的是这件事情所以当时没有办法在超越协商里面好好表达我觉得对于最后的结果让我觉得这是比较可惜的地方我是作为一个行政首长希望能够争取\n\n06:31.986 --> 06:53.335\n有這樣子好好討論政策的機會我的初衷是這個我們的主題是有媒體報導勞動部把這個這個免除這個巴士量把評估就新申請這個外籍看護人數列為最高機密所以讓人家質疑啊你當時一直喊說會造成搶工會造成長照體系的這個崩壞好像修法一通過天就要塌下來一樣\n\n06:54.215 --> 07:14.466\n那現在是這樣嗎請問到8月1號到現在為止用免憑巴士量表的申請外籍考問人數有多少你說有多少天有塌下來嗎最新的數據到8月17號目前是就是說因為修法而新取得資格而有來申請的大概是1450左右\n\n07:20.689 --> 07:41.866\n那但是我們的確看到在第二週的數據是第一週數據的兩倍第二週的數據是第一週數據的兩倍那這意思是說到底接下來的趨勢會怎麼樣走坦白說還需要一段時間觀察我們當然希望沒什麼衝擊但是人民不能接受的是你不要用恐嚇的方式來做你來回應你不想做的事\n\n07:41.886 --> 08:06.830\n委員我並沒有用恐嚇方式我們做的事情是為可能會的衝擊做因應的準備我們不是恐嚇我們我們這6個月很努力在做的事情是為可能會發生的衝擊去做足我們的衝擊準備的因應的工作這是我們做我們不是只是恐嚇我們並沒有恐嚇主席我我他佔用我太多時間了我那個\n\n08:09.124 --> 08:32.627\n我前幾天看到新聞部長有提到說針對外界關注開放印度移工來補充看護移工的事情勞動部說因為印度是新的移工來源國那目前我方跟印度政府在今年初的協商是希望尤其從製造業跟傳統產業開放至少1000名進來那看到這裡我就有疑問勞動部預期要補充很多外籍看護人員\n\n08:33.327 --> 08:54.732\n為什麼年初跟印度政府談判的時候沒有列入考量呢沒有列入這個部分為什麼你不列入這個外籍看護呢跟委員說明確實當時在討論印度移工的時候社會普遍現在比較能夠接比較能夠有共識接受的是印度移工先進到製造業跟這些傳產裡面那為什麼這個是法通過了你不做你說有困難然後談論談判的時候又不把它納入\n\n09:01.604 --> 09:20.867\n不是談判委員你誤會了當時在印度移工引進的時候包括來立法院報告當時很清楚就是跟立法院說明會印度移工如果進來的話會先以製造業或這些傳產作為優先的這個引進的場域當時就是跟立法院說的很清楚的事情\n\n09:21.631 --> 09:48.173\n反正部長去年就三讀通過了如果你真的想像你們擔心的衝擊那你應該想辦法增加來源啊不只是印度還有其他的來源國不是去刻意營造一個在立法之後你去營造整個社會一種搶外籍這個看護人增加來源國的量能增加來源國供給引進的量能這是我們六大配套措施裡面非常重要的一部分\n\n09:48.874 --> 10:15.186\n你在學育健保養我就給你這麼多移工好你們自己去搶然後創造這個社會這種氛圍害怕的氛圍委員我要跟你說我們花在這六個月時間花了很多的力氣跟四個移工來源國去協商希望他們增加引進的數量我們在這四個月不斷的跟四個來源國協商這件事情就是希望增加引進的這供給量這是我們配套措施裡面講得很清楚的部分\n\n10:16.008 --> 10:36.932\n我希望你不要將對長者的照護當作一個政治這個操作或攻擊我完全沒有把它當作政治操作的工具我們是很努力的在針對衝擊來進行配套的準備這樣講對我們的同仁是不公平的我們的同仁在這六個月的時間裡面多麼努力在這件事情上包括增加引進的量\n\n10:37.392 --> 10:59.430\n引進一千名勞工不是今年初談的是去年談的去年何沛山部長就開始談了開放巴士輛票的修法已經討論了一整年了你們有相當充分的時間去做準備所以你們年底通過就應該跟京都政府協商啊你完全沒有把這個看護工納在裡面啊我們通過以後就馬上跟來源國協商增加供給量\n\n11:03.475 --> 11:14.829\n去年底12月31號三讀通過以後我們就馬上在1月的時候就跟來源國開始在接洽希望能夠增加引進的供給的量這是我們在做的事情\n\n11:16.100 --> 11:38.767\n你們現在提出的六套配套措施老師說我必須給予肯定啦這些做法當然就是跟時間會改變但是該肯定我給你肯定但是我希望未來各行政部門首長都一樣不要存著僥倖的心態不要存著說國會要改組我可以翻案的心態就好好面對立法院三讀通過的這個法條好好去面對它準備它\n\n11:39.947 --> 11:52.932\n三讀通過後在12月底通過後我們馬上就開始準備從1月不管是在配套不管是輕重的這個分流也包括是供給量我們就開始準備但是是12月底才三讀通過啊\n\n12:01.499 --> 12:28.881\n我們就一直在醞釀那個法查的過程當中你們就當作說就通過以後也不做你到我辦公室來也是告訴我說這個至愛難行委員我到你的辦公室是告訴你我們會進行哪些配套當時到你辦公室提供給你的文件我都還留著我就是告訴我再告訴你我們做輕重分流包括來源國的增量這都是我們的配套重要的配套之一我到你辦公室的時候都很清楚的告訴委員\n\n12:29.502 --> 12:34.083\n是爭議性的法案好嗎就面對它處理它好好對待它好謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.203,"end":8.269,"text":"議委委員陳昭智委員發言謝謝主席有請部長紅部長 請紅部長"},{"start":21.229,"end":39.885,"text":"陳委員好 部長早 久違了請問去年年底 那我們就通過了這個立法院三讀通過就業服務法的修法那放寬了80歲及癌症二期以上不要經過這個80量表的評估可以聘僱外籍看護當時勞動部說外籍看護來源不足"},{"start":40.546,"end":59.226,"text":"恐會造成這個排擠還有中性家庭請不到人長照體系崩壞請問部長既然這個修法影響這麼大你們也覺得至愛難行那為什麼庭審院不提復議呢你們有提復議嗎你們有提復議嗎在這個案子沒有提復議你沒有提復議這麼至愛難行你沒有提復議"},{"start":64.161,"end":72.986,"text":"那可見你們心裡知道嘛就是說巴士量表的確造成很多人的困擾而且整個民意是趨向如此嘛所以你們沒有提富裕是這樣嗎"},{"start":73.888,"end":92.324,"text":"那個跟陳委員說明第一個當時在修法通過以後我們就判斷那我們是願意來進行配套的準備用配套的準備來盡力的降低可能會造成的衝擊跟影響 因為前會經過兩位部長大家都說這個非常至愛難行我想說至愛難行你們就來複譯複譯就是你們也常規做的"},{"start":99.67,"end":115.863,"text":"我們的確認為他會有一些衝擊那這些衝擊 勞動部願意來規劃配套來去降盡力的降低這些衝擊7月6大罷免前一天你發了一篇文指責在野黨通過許多爭議的法案包括"},{"start":116.764,"end":136.707,"text":"救福法80歲免巴士量表的這個法案你說這是爭議法案喔你說這些法案有一套操作模式快速過水市的初委員會跳過韓院長主持的協商限制表決前逐條的發言表決前才拿出最高機密的版本我認為你的說法"},{"start":137.668,"end":166.666,"text":"很多不是事實我要一一來破解跟拆除部長您說委員會過水跳過協商我們來看一下這個救護法免巴士量表的修法過程總共開了一次公聽會三天的委員會的審查再加上召委召開的這個黨團協商立法院執行刑事法可沒有說協商一定要喊院長主持這樣還不算充分討論嗎光是為了一條修法"},{"start":167.677,"end":185.207,"text":"就討論了三次的委員會你知道其他的再生醫療法還有人體生物資料庫條例三四十條都討論也不過三天而已耶委員我講得很清楚其實原本這個案子在立法院是有派韓院長主持的"},{"start":186.047,"end":199.694,"text":"朝野協商的但後來這個朝野協商就被跳過了那我們原本想要帶著一個大家其實我們覺得可能更能夠執行或對衝擊會更小的方案到朝野協商來跟委員來討論當時我們做了這個準備"},{"start":203.156,"end":217.526,"text":"結果這場協商就被跳過後來就直接表決了我覺得這個程序的過程會讓我們覺得好像少了一些像少了一些其實可以找到更好的處理方案的機會我講的是這件事情"},{"start":233.276,"end":250.889,"text":"我現在也是幹事長 我都見證這件事你也當過幹事長齁如果貴黨柯總召不簽名的話這個根本協商是破局的所以你說在野黨 都推給在野黨限制表決前的逐條發言我只要告訴你 這簽名啊 簽名啊三黨都簽名啊"},{"start":251.269,"end":274.375,"text":"不是像你說的那個樣子就這個案子本身就把46條修法本身我自己很清楚我們當時是帶著我們覺得更能夠執行或讓衝擊更小的方案想要到朝野協商裡面來表達跟委員好好坐下來談可是當時的這個朝野協商確實是被跳過了也就是失去了這個更能夠好好討論的機會這是我覺得遺憾的地方"},{"start":274.775,"end":283.797,"text":"你說表決前才拿出最高機密版本你也當過幹部難道柯總召沒有教你嗎立法院的議事運作看一下柯總召怎麼講的請暫停 聲音時間請暫停"},{"start":305.97,"end":322.688,"text":"主委會絕對不是綜藝版本最後版本是什麼最後版本是在表情那一剎那各黨提出版本才是最後版本嘛那時才是最後啊主委會絕對不是綜藝版本"},{"start":326.4,"end":347.446,"text":"好那我就講部長你聽到了柯總召說表決前那一剎那拿出來的還是最後版本這個其實每個黨他都有所謂的最高機密版本大家都有只是說最後的那個再修正動議的版本其實跟原來不會差很大只是一些微調所以我要說部長"},{"start":348.246,"end":366.359,"text":"可惜啦 部長可惜你726的那個催票文沒什麼效果啦所以我勸你 身為部長少講政治 多談政策啦否則這個禮拜六大罷免可能又要再大失敗喔讓我說明一下我作為一個行政首長"},{"start":367.844,"end":391.145,"text":"我当时想表达的事情是想要争取能够让更多的行政机构可以好好的讨论政策跟法案的机会我其实在表达的是这件事情所以当时没有办法在超越协商里面好好表达我觉得对于最后的结果让我觉得这是比较可惜的地方我是作为一个行政首长希望能够争取"},{"start":391.986,"end":413.335,"text":"有這樣子好好討論政策的機會我的初衷是這個我們的主題是有媒體報導勞動部把這個這個免除這個巴士量把評估就新申請這個外籍看護人數列為最高機密所以讓人家質疑啊你當時一直喊說會造成搶工會造成長照體系的這個崩壞好像修法一通過天就要塌下來一樣"},{"start":414.215,"end":434.466,"text":"那現在是這樣嗎 請問到8月1號到現在為止用免憑巴士量表的申請外籍考問人數有多少你說有多少 天有塌下來嗎最新的數據到8月17號目前是 就是說因為修法而新取得資格而有來申請的大概是1450左右"},{"start":440.689,"end":461.866,"text":"那但是我們的確看到在第二週的數據是第一週數據的兩倍第二週的數據是第一週數據的兩倍那這意思是說到底接下來的趨勢會怎麼樣走坦白說還需要一段時間觀察我們當然希望沒什麼衝擊但是人民不能接受的是你不要用恐嚇的方式來做你來回應你不想做的事"},{"start":461.886,"end":486.83,"text":"委員我並沒有用恐嚇方式我們做的事情是為可能會的衝擊做因應的準備我們不是恐嚇我們我們這6個月很努力在做的事情是為可能會發生的衝擊去做足我們的衝擊準備的因應的工作這是我們做我們不是只是恐嚇我們並沒有恐嚇主席我我他佔用我太多時間了我那個"},{"start":489.124,"end":512.627,"text":"我前幾天看到新聞部長有提到說針對外界關注開放印度移工來補充看護移工的事情勞動部說因為印度是新的移工來源國那目前我方跟印度政府在今年初的協商是希望尤其從製造業跟傳統產業開放至少1000名進來那看到這裡我就有疑問勞動部預期要補充很多外籍看護人員"},{"start":513.327,"end":534.732,"text":"為什麼年初跟印度政府談判的時候沒有列入考量呢沒有列入這個部分為什麼你不列入這個外籍看護呢跟委員說明確實當時在討論印度移工的時候社會普遍現在比較能夠接比較能夠有共識接受的是印度移工先進到製造業跟這些傳產裡面那為什麼這個是法通過了你不做你說有困難然後談論談判的時候又不把它納入"},{"start":541.604,"end":560.867,"text":"不是談判委員你誤會了當時在印度移工引進的時候包括來立法院報告當時很清楚就是跟立法院說明會印度移工如果進來的話會先以製造業或這些傳產作為優先的這個引進的場域當時就是跟立法院說的很清楚的事情"},{"start":561.631,"end":588.173,"text":"反正部長去年就三讀通過了如果你真的想像你們擔心的衝擊那你應該想辦法增加來源啊不只是印度還有其他的來源國不是去刻意營造一個在立法之後你去營造整個社會一種搶外籍這個看護人增加來源國的量能增加來源國供給引進的量能這是我們六大配套措施裡面非常重要的一部分"},{"start":588.874,"end":615.186,"text":"你在學育健保養 我就給你這麼多移工 好 你們自己去搶然後創造這個社會這種氛圍 害怕的氛圍委員我要跟你說 我們花在這六個月時間花了很多的力氣跟四個移工來源國去協商希望他們增加引進的數量我們在這四個月不斷的跟四個來源國協商這件事情就是希望增加引進的這供給量這是我們配套措施裡面講得很清楚的部分"},{"start":616.008,"end":636.932,"text":"我希望你不要將對長者的照護當作一個政治這個操作或攻擊我完全沒有把它當作政治操作的工具我們是很努力的在針對衝擊來進行配套的準備這樣講對我們的同仁是不公平的我們的同仁在這六個月的時間裡面多麼努力在這件事情上包括增加引進的量"},{"start":637.392,"end":659.43,"text":"引進一千名勞工不是今年初談的 是去年談的去年何沛山部長就開始談了開放巴士輛票的修法已經討論了一整年了你們有相當充分的時間去做準備所以你們年底通過就應該跟京都政府協商啊你完全沒有把這個看護工納在裡面啊我們通過以後就馬上跟來源國協商增加供給量"},{"start":663.475,"end":674.829,"text":"去年底12月31號三讀通過以後我們就馬上在1月的時候就跟來源國開始在接洽希望能夠增加引進的供給的量這是我們在做的事情"},{"start":676.1,"end":698.767,"text":"你們現在提出的六套配套措施老師說我必須給予肯定啦這些做法當然就是跟時間會改變但是該肯定我給你肯定但是我希望未來各行政部門首長都一樣不要存著僥倖的心態不要存著說國會要改組我可以翻案的心態就好好面對立法院三讀通過的這個法條好好去面對它 準備它"},{"start":699.947,"end":712.932,"text":"三讀通過後在12月底通過後我們馬上就開始準備從1月不管是在配套不管是輕重的這個分流也包括是供給量我們就開始準備但是是12月底才三讀通過啊"},{"start":721.499,"end":748.881,"text":"我們就一直在醞釀那個法查的過程當中你們就當作說就通過以後也不做你到我辦公室來也是告訴我說這個至愛難行委員我到你的辦公室是告訴你我們會進行哪些配套當時到你辦公室提供給你的文件我都還留著我就是告訴我再告訴你我們做輕重分流包括來源國的增量這都是我們的配套重要的配套之一我到你辦公室的時候都很清楚的告訴委員"},{"start":749.502,"end":754.083,"text":"是爭議性的法案 好嗎就面對它 處理它 好好對待它好 謝謝部長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":98,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時10分）謝謝主席，有請洪部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早，久違了！去年年底我們立法院三讀通過了就業服務法的修法，通過80歲以上及70到79歲罹患二期以上癌症者不需經巴氏量表的評估就可以聘僱外籍看護，當時勞動部說外籍看護來源不足，恐會造成排擠，導致重症家庭請不到人以及長照體系崩壞。請問部長，既然這個修法的影響這麼大，你們也覺得窒礙難行，為什麼行政院不提覆議呢？你們有提覆議嗎？你們有提覆議嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：這個案子沒有提覆議。"],["陳委員昭姿：你沒有提覆議？這麼窒礙難行，你們卻沒有提覆議，可見你們心裡知道巴氏量表的確造成很多人的困擾，而且整個民意趨向是如此，所以你們沒有提覆議，是這樣嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟陳委員說明，第一個，當時修法通過之後，我們就有做過判斷，我們願意進行配套準備，用配套準備來盡力降低可能會造成的衝擊跟影響。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝部長，因為前後經過兩位部長，大家都說這個非常窒礙難行，我想說如果窒礙難行，你們就提覆議嘛，覆議是你們常規在做的事情。"],["洪部長申翰：我們的確認為它會有一些衝擊，對於這些衝擊，勞動部願意規劃配套去盡力降低這些衝擊。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝部長。部長，726大罷免的前一天你發了一篇文，指責在野黨通過許多爭議的法案，包括就服法80歲免巴氏量表的修法，你說這是爭議法案喔！你說這些法案有一套操作模式，快速、過水似的出委員會，跳過韓院長主持的朝野協商，限制表決前的逐條發言，甚至在表決前才拿出最高機密版本。我認為你的說法很多不是事實，我要一一破解跟拆除。","部長，您說委員會過水、跳過協商，我們來看一下就服法免巴氏量表的修法過程，總共開了1次公聽會及3天委員會的審查，再加上召委召開的黨團協商，立法院職權行使法可沒有說協商一定要韓院長主持喔，這樣還不算充分討論嗎？光是為了一條修法就討論了三次的委員會……"],["洪部長申翰：委員……"],["陳委員昭姿：你知道其他的像再生醫療法還有人體生物資料庫條例，三、四十條都討論也不過三天而已。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我講得很清楚，其實原本這個案子在立法院是有排韓院長主持的朝野協商的，但後來這個朝野協商就被跳過了。我們原本想要帶著一個，我們覺得可能更能夠執行或是衝擊會更小的方案到朝野協商來跟委員討論。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我只是告訴你，協商沒有……"],["洪部長申翰：當時我們做了這個準備，結果這場協商就被跳過，後來就直接表決了，我覺得這個程序的過程，會讓我們覺得好像少了一些……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長，你要為你的發言負責任嘛，部長，部長……"],["洪部長申翰：少了一些其實可以找到更好的處理方案的機會，我講的是這件事情。"],["陳委員昭姿：你只講在野黨限制表決前的逐條發言，但是事實上發言人數向來都是韓院長帶領三團黨團協商所得的共識，民進黨三長都有在協商結論上簽名，你看柯建銘，我現在也是幹事長，我都見證這件事，你也當過幹事長，如果貴黨柯總召不簽名的話，這個協商根本是破局的。所以你說在野黨，都推給在野黨限制表決前的逐條發言，我只要告訴你，這個簽名是三黨都簽名的，不是像你說的那個樣子。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，針對就服法第四十六條修法本身，我自己很清楚，我們當時是帶著我們覺得更能夠執行或讓衝擊更小的方案，想要到朝野協商裡面來表達，跟委員好好坐下來談，可是當時這個朝野協商確實是被跳過了……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長，你們也沒覆議，還有還有，請給我時間。"],["洪部長申翰：也就是失去了這個更能夠好好討論的機會，這是我覺得遺憾的地方。"],["陳委員昭姿：你說表決前才拿出最高機密版本，你也當過幹部，難道柯總召沒有教你立法院的議事運作嗎？看一下柯總召怎麼講的。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長，你聽到了喔？柯總召說，表決前那一剎那拿出來的才是最後的版本。其實每個黨都有所謂的最高機密版本，大家都有，只是說最後那個再修正動議的版本其實跟原來不會差很大，只是一些微調啦。所以我要說可惜啦，部長，可惜你那個726的催票文沒有什麼效果，所以我勸你，身為部長，少講政治、多談政策，否則這個禮拜六的大罷免可能又要再大失敗喔！"],["洪部長申翰：委員，讓我說明一下，作為一個行政首長，我當時想表達的事情是想要爭取能夠讓更多的行政機構可以好好討論政策跟法案的機會……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長、部長，OK了，因為……"],["洪部長申翰：我其實在表達的是這件事情。所以當時沒有辦法在朝野協商裡面好好表達，我覺得對於最後的結果，讓我覺得會是比較可惜的地方……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長，請尊重我質詢的時間。"],["洪部長申翰：作為一個行政首長，我是希望能夠爭取有好好討論政策的機會……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長，我們的主題……"],["洪部長申翰：我的初衷是這個。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長，我們的主題是有媒體報導，勞動部把免除巴氏量表評估之後，新申請外籍看護的人數列為最高機密，所以讓人質疑，你當時一直喊說會造成搶工，會造成長照體系的崩壞，好像修法一通過，天就要塌下來一樣，那現在是這樣嗎？請問8月1號到現在為止，用免評巴氏量表申請外籍看護的人數有多少？你說有多少？天有塌下來嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：到8月17號最新的數據，目前因為修法新取得資格，並且有來申請的大概是1,450左右，但是我們的確看到，第二週的數據是第一週數據的兩倍，第二週的數據是第一週數據的兩倍，意思是到底接下來的趨勢會怎麼樣走，坦白說還需要一段時間觀察。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我們當然希望沒有什麼衝擊，但是人民不能接受的是，你不要用恐嚇的方式來回應你不想做的事情。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我並沒有用恐嚇的方式，我們做的事情是……"],["陳委員昭姿：你恐嚇大家會排擠啊，說會請不到人啊！"],["洪部長申翰：是為可能會出現的衝擊做因應的準備。委員，我們不是恐嚇……"],["陳委員昭姿：前幾天……"],["洪部長申翰：我們這六個月很努力在做的事情是，為可能會發生的衝擊去做足……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，部長，請尊重我的時間，部長，部長……"],["洪部長申翰：衝擊準備的因應工作，這是我們在做的，我們不是在恐嚇，我們並沒有恐嚇。"],["陳委員昭姿：主席，他占用我太多時間了。","部長，我前幾天看到新聞提到，針對外界關注開放印度移工來補充看護移工的事情，勞動部說因為印度是新的移工來源國，目前我方跟印度政府在今年初的協商，是希望優先從製造業跟傳統產業開放至少1,000名進來。看到這裡我就有疑問，勞動部預期要補充很多外籍看護人力，為什麼年初跟印度政府談判的時候沒有列入考量呢？沒有列入這個部分，為什麼你不列入外籍看護呢？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，確實當時討論印度移工的時候，社會普遍比較能夠有共識接受的是，印度移工先進到製造業跟這些傳產裡面……"],["陳委員昭姿：這個我知道，那為什麼……"],["洪部長申翰：那這個是……"],["陳委員昭姿：法通過了你不做，你說有困難，然後談判的時候又不把他納入。"],["洪部長申翰：不是談判不納入，委員，你誤會了。當時在討論引進印度移工的時候，包括來立法院報告，當時很清楚就是跟立法院說明，印度移工如果進來的話，會先以製造業或這些傳產作為優先引進的場域，這是當時就跟立法院說明得很清楚的事情。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，反正去年就三讀通過了，如果真的想因應你們所擔心的衝擊，那你應該想辦法增加來源，不只是印度，還有其他的來源國，而不是在立法之後，去刻意營造整個社會在搶外籍看護的狀況。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，增加來源國的量能，增加來源國供給引進的量能，這是我們六大配套措施裡面非常重要的一部分……"],["陳委員昭姿：我覺得你在學習健保總額耶……"],["洪部長申翰：蛤？"],["陳委員昭姿：你在學習健保總額，我就給你這麼多的移工，好，你們自己去搶，然後創造社會這種害怕的氛圍。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我要跟你說，我們在這六個月時間，花了很多力氣跟四個移工來源國去協商，希望他們增加引進的數量……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，總之……"],["洪部長申翰：我們在這四個月不斷地跟四個來源國協商這件事情，就是希望增加引進的供給量……"],["陳委員昭姿：我希望你……"],["洪部長申翰：這是我們配套措施裡面講得很清楚的部分。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我希望你不要將對長者的照護當作一個政治操作或攻擊的籌碼，這是對長者的照護……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我完全沒有把它當作政治操作的工具，我們是很努力的在針對衝擊進行配套的準備……"],["陳委員昭姿：我為什麼這樣說呢？"],["洪部長申翰：這樣講對我們的同仁是不公平的，我們的同仁在這六個月的時間裡面，多麼努力的在這件事情上，包括增加引進的量……"],["陳委員昭姿：請等一下！引進1,000名勞工不是今年初談的，是去年談的，去年何佩珊部長就開始談了。開放巴氏量表的修法已經討論一整年了，你們有相當充分的時間準備，所以去年底法案通過之後，你們就應該跟印度政府協商，但你完全沒有把看護工這部分納在裡面……"],["洪部長申翰：我們在法案通過以後，就馬上跟來源國協商增加供給量……"],["陳委員昭姿：這是去年談的，不是今年才談的……"],["洪部長申翰：今年……"],["陳委員昭姿：有充分的時間，已經有充分的時間……"],["洪部長申翰：去年底12月31號三讀通過以後，我們馬上在1月的時候就開始跟來源國接洽，希望能夠增加引進供給的量，這是我們在做的事情。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我跟你說，你們現在提出的六大配套措施，老實說我必須給予肯定，這些作法當然跟隨時間流逝會有所改變，但是該肯定的我會給你肯定。但是我希望未來，各個行政部門首長都一樣，不要存著僥倖的心態，不要存著國會要改組、我可以翻案的心態。好好面對立法院三讀通過的法條，好好地面對它，準備它，去應對民意……"],["洪部長申翰：在12月底三讀通過後，我們馬上就開始準備，從1月開始，不管是在配套，不管是輕重的分流，也包括供給量，我們就開始準備……"],["陳委員昭姿：你要概括承受，勞動部去年就開始談了，何部長就開始跟印度政府談了。"],["洪部長申翰：但是是12月底才三讀通過啊！"],["陳委員昭姿：我們一直在醞釀那個法條的過程當中，你們就當作……就通過以後也不做，你到我辦公室來，也是告訴我說這個窒礙難行，很有困難。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我到你的辦公室是告訴你，我們會進行哪些配套，當時到你辦公室提供給你的文件，我都還留著。我再告訴你，我們做輕重症分流，包括來源國的增量，這都是重要的配套之一。"],["陳委員昭姿：請你不要再說……"],["洪部長申翰：我到你辦公室的時候，都很清楚地告訴委員。"],["陳委員昭姿：請你不要再說通過這個法案是爭議性的法案，好嗎？就面對它、處理它，好好對待它。謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝陳昭姿委員的發言，也謝謝部長的答詢，也祝昭姿委員喉嚨可以早日康復。","下一位，我們請林月琴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":220,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-25","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","林淑芬","王正旭","陳瑩","盧縣一","楊曜","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","何欣純"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2025-08-20"],"gazette_id":"1147502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長、衛生福利部就「就業服務法第46條，80歲以上長者聘請外籍看護免巴氏量\n表上路，對重症家庭的衝擊與配套措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審查 (一）委員王\n育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(二）委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人\n自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九\n條及第十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正\n草案」案、(五)委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案【逐條\n討論】","agenda_id":"1147502_00002"}}}