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137.108, \"text\": \"所以我們很擔心的是未來重症家庭將更難請到移工或者是因為代價昂貴而請不起移工移工本來就是第一個國跟國的競爭我們本來就很難競爭得過日韓兩個國家還有產業跟產業之間的競爭今天看護工要去競爭其他跟其他產業競爭本來就一定困難更何況現在還有所謂的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 113.106, \"end\": 113.206, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 113.206, \"end\": 113.266, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 113.266, \"end\": 113.346, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 113.346, \"end\": 113.807, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"擔\"}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 113.807, \"end\": 113.987, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 113.987, \"end\": 114.127, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 114.127, \"end\": 114.647, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"未\", \"start\": 114.647, \"end\": 114.908, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 114.908, \"end\": 115.088, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"症\", \"start\": 115.088, \"end\": 115.248, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 115.248, 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\"start\": 911.797, \"end\": 912.418, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"勳\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 912.418, \"end\": 912.638, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 912.638, \"end\": 912.658, \"score\": 0.198}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:12,643 --> 00:00:28,429\n主席麻煩我們的洪部長有請洪部長部長早去年底我們就通過了那個就業服務法第46條修法\n\n2\n00:00:29,356 --> 00:00:50,961\n恐怕就将打乱包括重度需求者跟失智症者的照顾规划新法大概开放80岁以上或70岁以上罹患癌症第二期的长辈不用经过专业评估就可以直接聘雇我们的外籍看护这样一来增加了53万有评估资格者评估移工资格者\n\n3\n00:00:51,465 --> 00:01:12,398\n那預估也是將近有10萬的人要提出申請特別是這些申請人多數都是比較好照顧的長輩那將把真正需求的重症者會排擠到後邊所以本席非常擔心未來將是移工更難請薪資飆高有錢也找不到人我想這不是只有我們的擔心也不是說那真的是\n\n4\n00:01:15,207 --> 00:01:43,379\n剛剛趙志偉講的說政府在恐嚇事實上民間團體也提出來所以7月28日那社福總盟跟很多的相關的因為總盟大概60幾個團體那他們跟本席共同召開記者會希望落實在呼籲落實我們的重症優先會中臺灣的失智症協會還表示說失智症患者家庭從來都沒有被移工選\n\n5\n00:01:44,369 --> 00:01:52,472\n而是沒有挑選移工的條件那他們根本是沒有選擇任何有選擇權而且他們是被挑選的\n\n6\n00:01:53,106 --> 00:02:17,108\n所以我們很擔心的是未來重症家庭將更難請到移工或者是因為代價昂貴而請不起移工移工本來就是第一個國跟國的競爭我們本來就很難競爭得過日韓兩個國家還有產業跟產業之間的競爭今天看護工要去競爭其他跟其他產業競爭本來就一定困難更何況現在還有所謂的\n\n7\n00:02:18,171 --> 00:02:33,167\n避重就輕也就是重症的真的事實上會很難找到人所以想問勞動部勞動部提出的六大配套當中提出來說重症者最快一天內能夠完成國內推薦7天可以獲得招募的許可函\n\n8\n00:02:33,735 --> 00:02:57,889\n如此能夠節省13到21天便可進入國外選工的程序可是人力仲介公司早在半年前就已經開始宣傳我們的聘僱新制同時對僱主跟移工來伸手招攬所以重症者家庭勢必是國外便會是可能招募不到人所以我不知道勞動部對於幫重症節省的這個21天有效嗎\n\n9\n00:02:59,697 --> 00:03:22,618\n跟委員說明的確這個修法不管是在修法的期間或修法通過我們其實最擔心的其實就是對重症家庭影響那的確在這尤其是近期就是這個法生效上路之後我們陸陸續續也接到一些澄清就是說這些重症的家庭他要聘僱移工的時候或他已經聘僱的移工\n\n10\n00:03:23,599 --> 00:03:42,582\n那在照顧的狀態上面會做出改變或對於是否要留下來有移工開始會有一些不一樣的想法那這樣子的陳情的案件我們也陸陸續續聽到不少那包括網路上面其實大概有些在社群媒體上面也是可以看到這樣的訊息那這都其實這真的都不是我們樂見的事情\n\n11\n00:03:43,383 --> 00:03:59,475\n所以剛剛在講到說我們也是思考到重症家庭的權益所以我們在這一次的配套裡面我特別希望讓重症家庭包括他的行政的審查都能夠比較優先包括可能像一般來講過去一般其實在求財階段你可能要求財要七天\n\n12\n00:04:00,596 --> 00:04:28,036\n那接下來在這個如果是重症拿到重症的資格的話他在求財可能一天我們都盡量的去縮短這個他們可能相對應的程序或者是我們在懲辦案件的時候讓重症家庭可以優先就是希望盡量在減少一些重症家庭在這裡面會遇到的行政上面的可能一些阻礙或者是一些行政上面的時間上面的成本這是我們希望優先來幫助重症家庭的部分\n\n13\n00:04:28,696 --> 00:04:55,997\n這個短期有效一個月後可能就很難達到我們的重症優先的效果那勞動部怎麼看這件事為什麼我們這樣講就像現在是因為不是這麼多我們的有80歲以上的老人家庭知道我覺得公民團體在推估初期真的申請的人不會這麼多可是後端越來越多人知道的時候這個效果可能會看半年後\n\n14\n00:04:56,522 --> 00:05:06,564\n才會看到那個衝擊量進來所以預估10萬所以現在有很多人講說不會啊現在看起來一直在問勞動部說你們好像進來剛剛講的我們招資委員說\n\n15\n00:05:08,567 --> 00:05:26,688\n沒有沒有多少人申請嘛量很低可是我們擔心的是半年後其實因為現在在趨勢上面還沒有辦法看得很清楚就像我剛才跟委員包括跟媒體報告的的確現在看起來量好像沒有一下暴增很多可是我們的確已經看到第二週比第一週的申請的人數是兩倍\n\n16\n00:05:27,549 --> 00:05:46,067\n那未來第三週第四週會是什麼樣的趨勢這個部分可能還要更多的數據比較才能觀察到這個趨勢但我們只能盡我們所能的協助重症的家庭就像我想我在剛才在報告上因為說我的確我們也自己心清楚可能還是很難完全就是\n\n17\n00:05:47,366 --> 00:06:02,564\n避免對重症家庭的影響這是我們只能盡我們作為一個行政部門的所能盡力的優先盡力的優先服務重症家庭這是我們所能做的事情對但能做的事情我們就盡量做至少這是我們行政部門的責任\n\n18\n00:06:02,864 --> 00:06:27,244\n在過去多元免評的方案的條件裡面有一項條件是使用長照六個月後就取得我們的移工聘僱的資格這項條件確實是有效拖延非重症者跟重症者強人的時程所以在訂這個政策的時候除了縮短重症人僱主的求財招募申請時間另外一邊另一邊為什麼不延長非重症者\n\n19\n00:06:28,044 --> 00:06:51,393\n雇主的求財招募的時間申請的時間把兩邊的距離再度的能夠再拉長一點其實現在委員你的問題是要把時間再縮短嗎也就是說我覺得要把兩邊否則的話你現在在80歲大概7天的時間雖然講重症的時間事實上是可以\n\n20\n00:06:51,772 --> 00:07:17,854\n可以短一點就申請得到我們是希望如果這兩邊時間可以拉長是不是就可以讓重症的事實上還是有優先的一個考量我們基本上現在是讓輕症的還是維持原本的因為這是原本的就是我們其實也沒有特別要去卡輕症的因為如果我們要特別把它程序拉長的話可能也會造成這邊輕症的申請者他們可能也會有抱怨所以我們基本上現在就是維持輕症的申請者他是\n\n21\n00:07:18,735 --> 00:07:36,780\n原本的原本的但我們做的事情是讓重症優先就是而不是選我們的確現在沒有不是去選擇說我把輕症的程序給拉長因為這個這就是很難2021年我們就曾經發生生產業類的那個移工搶人大戰\n\n22\n00:07:37,760 --> 00:08:01,943\n疫情限制了移工的入境導致我們的缺工頻傳然後部分看護工看準廠工價優渥的勞動條件以騷擾雇主或是代工方式來逼迫雇主藉由三方合一方式轉為廠工那讓需照顧家庭的雇主急著跳腳對此勞動部那時候去修正了一個辦法\n\n23\n00:08:02,563 --> 00:08:22,341\n民定移工跨业的话转换的话要以同类别为优先也就是说看护家庭看护工如果14内没有雇主承接的话才可以转换到其他所以想问劳动部我们的聘雇新制上路的时候的一个问题早在今年初就已经传遍了整个移工社群\n\n24\n00:08:22,941 --> 00:08:43,619\n媒體甚至還報導說今年7月移工1955的專線被打到爆重症家庭拼顧移工遇難跳槽所以請問今年7月到現在1955諮詢專線的數量到底有沒有增加還有社福類的移工轉換僱主的諮詢電話有多少的比例\n\n25\n00:08:45,641 --> 00:09:07,221\n我想一直以來其實我們的1955的這個專線其實但來詢問移工相關的事項就是比較多那的確這幾個月來來詢問這個80歲以上免巴士量表的申請的程序等等的相關的問題的確也是增加不少不過詳細的數字我可能要跟我們部裡面的業務單位去確認一下才知道到底多了多少\n\n26\n00:09:07,421 --> 00:09:23,584\n好那是不是會後再給我那不然也是再續問就是說新制上路至今我們的社福類移工的申請轉換雇主許可的申請案件量跟前幾個月比是不是有增加是就像你剛剛講的嗎\n\n27\n00:09:24,925 --> 00:09:47,863\n對就是我剛才說到就是說我剛講這個大概1450左右的這個數字其實是等於是在修法後那因為修法而興取的資格有來申請的人包括80歲以上免巴氏量表的80就簡單80歲以上的長者跟70到79歲癌症二期這兩個加起來是這個數字那\n\n28\n00:09:50,645 --> 00:10:08,703\n這個數字確實我們看到了一些增加的趨勢但是後續真的還需要一點時間我們也不敢斷言是不是之後一定會必然增加其實從勞動部的角度我們也不希望這個數字增加因為我們在提醒器重則輕這件事情它其實是一個提醒它不是我們的政策目標\n\n29\n00:10:10,284 --> 00:10:27,199\n器重責輕並不是我們的政策目標或者我們政策目標是要增加大量的人來申請這不是我們政策目標可是勞動部做一個行政部門要為可能會有增加的人數尤其是如果真的增加很多的話我們必須做準備這是一個行政部門該有的責任\n\n30\n00:10:27,779 --> 00:10:42,304\n所以我們也不能把他想的好像很樂觀或者是都沒問題這樣可能也會出問題所以我們必須把情境想可能比較嚴峻一點可為嚴峻狀況做準備如果真的沒有人來這麼多的話那我想我們我們做的準備也比較能夠因應大家的需求\n\n31\n00:10:44,105 --> 00:11:12,761\n既然國內我們的缺工日漸嚴重勞動部去提升提升什麼因為因為本期獲知部分移工安置中心等待轉換僱主的移工因為照顧技術不好在入境半年內就跟僱主就跟他解約了可是在移工在解約之後比較不容易轉換所以近日當然有很多越南籍移工遇到這樣的問題所以有沒有考慮去提升他們的照顧技術活化在安置中心等待的\n\n32\n00:11:14,302 --> 00:11:33,491\n時間內去做這件事情讓移工能夠順利轉換也可以解決那個缺工的問題我想其實我們接下來包括我們近期其實也針對我們的轉換的中心會把它強化它的功能那就是希望讓移工的轉換能夠更順暢不要有很多可能合約到期以後它就必須被送回去被送回國家\n\n33\n00:11:33,971 --> 00:11:57,067\n我們更希望他能夠被優先的承接那第二個該委員說關於我們這個學習的課程我們接下來也會來強化那尤其包括語言的部分或者是照顧的技巧的部分我想這都是我們想強化的方向再麻煩我們的衛福部的次長我想這項政策按理說不應該是勞動部的事是不是衛福部在推動移工學習上有什麼貢獻\n\n34\n00:11:58,451 --> 00:12:25,824\n是非常感謝委員對於這個問題的關心我包委員我們在這個大院通過這個46條以後本部跟勞動部一直維持非常非常密切的一個聯繫因為經過左院長的一個指示我們當時馬上就成立一個所謂雙次長的一個會議那洪聖翰洪部長還對我們非常非常有很多的一個指導那跟我們報告我們主要就幾個部分\n\n35\n00:12:26,624 --> 00:12:47,786\n就是大家最關心的一個就是對於重症的一個這個衝擊所以我們基本上是輕重分流而且重症可是我現在看你們開的事實上有的是線上課程可是線上課程跟實體課程還是有落差所以移工區上課如果要實體課程的話當然因為僱主在這段時間沒有人照顧需要常照服務資源所以請問一下\n\n36\n00:12:48,906 --> 00:13:10,663\n衛福部有什麼樣一個對應的作為是報告委員其實因為最主要就是這個部分如果說移工他要來上課的話其實基本上還在經過這一個顧主他們的家庭的同意那我也必須要承認就是說一般來說顧主他通常還是會對於這個準價的部分可能會有一些比較他們自己本身的需要\n\n37\n00:13:11,423 --> 00:13:39,703\n那當然我們也會這邊還是來加強來宣導因為其實移工他來上其實對於整個照顧的品質基本上還是有幫助所以我們基本上這邊還是會跟這一個病故的家庭來多宣導最後我希望是不是可以考慮因為大概整個照顧歷程平均10年從衰落到離世這個時間點大概10年所以問衛福部說我覺得在長期照顧在整個照顧方式的選項裡面是不是應該把\n\n38\n00:13:41,354 --> 00:13:56,772\n移工的照顾跟住宿型机构整合进来不是只有你的衰弱到中度后边呢就是交由家庭来去做解决那你的看法如何我觉得这个确实我们我觉得这是一个不错的方向我也会来\n\n39\n00:13:57,633 --> 00:14:15,124\n來跟同仁來嚴寧就是剛剛委員剛剛所說的這部分確實啦因為整個這一個我們長照3.0也即將在明年上路那我想這個裡面對於怎麼樣把家庭康復工這個也視為我們未來的一個整個潛在人力我想這個所以進一步再問就是\n\n40\n00:14:16,164 --> 00:14:42,797\n既然這次把80歲的巴士兩表廢除所以我們有沒有考慮因為2021年的話身心障礙者需求評估ICF曾經做過一次改革那老人照顧的需求評估為何不做改革整個用你的長照需求做評估報告委員其實基本上巴士兩表跟我們現在所謂CMS基本上還是我必須要說還是有點不太一樣巴士兩表其實基本上大概就是說你要不要聘僱外籍家庭\n\n41\n00:14:43,317 --> 00:15:12,658\n那CMS不能用整個那個CMS來做評估嗎包委員還是兩個還是不一樣我舉個我打個比方這個怕是兩不一樣有點像就是資格考博士班的資格考可是呢你的CMS有點像就是那個博士班口試啊這兩個還是不一樣一個是資格一個是有民間團體已經開始有提出這樣子的一個想法所以你們評估看看然後再把評估報告給我因為時間關係好OK非常感謝委員的一個指教謝謝好謝謝林耀勳委員發言\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n12643\t28429\t主席麻煩我們的洪部長有請洪部長部長早 去年底我們就通過了那個就業服務法第46條修法\n29356\t50961\t恐怕就将打乱包括重度需求者跟失智症者的照顾规划新法大概开放80岁以上或70岁以上罹患癌症第二期的长辈不用经过专业评估就可以直接聘雇我们的外籍看护这样一来增加了53万有评估资格者评估移工资格者\n51465\t72398\t那預估也是將近有10萬的人要提出申請特別是這些申請人多數都是比較好照顧的長輩那將把真正需求的重症者會排擠到後邊所以本席非常擔心未來將是移工更難請薪資飆高有錢也找不到人我想這不是只有我們的擔心也不是說那真的是\n75207\t103379\t剛剛趙志偉講的說政府在恐嚇事實上民間團體也提出來所以7月28日那社福總盟跟很多的相關的因為總盟大概60幾個團體那他們跟本席共同召開記者會希望落實在呼籲落實我們的重症優先會中臺灣的失智症協會還表示說失智症患者家庭從來都沒有被移工選\n104369\t112472\t而是沒有挑選移工的條件那他們根本是沒有選擇任何有選擇權而且他們是被挑選的\n113106\t137108\t所以我們很擔心的是未來重症家庭將更難請到移工或者是因為代價昂貴而請不起移工移工本來就是第一個國跟國的競爭我們本來就很難競爭得過日韓兩個國家還有產業跟產業之間的競爭今天看護工要去競爭其他跟其他產業競爭本來就一定困難更何況現在還有所謂的\n138171\t153167\t避重就輕也就是重症的真的事實上會很難找到人所以想問勞動部 勞動部提出的六大配套當中提出來說重症者最快一天內能夠完成國內推薦7天可以獲得招募的許可函\n153735\t177889\t如此能夠節省13到21天便可進入國外選工的程序可是人力仲介公司早在半年前就已經開始宣傳我們的聘僱新制同時對僱主跟移工來伸手招攬所以重症者家庭勢必是國外便會是可能招募不到人所以我不知道勞動部對於幫重症節省的這個21天有效嗎\n179697\t202618\t跟委員說明的確這個修法不管是在修法的期間或修法通過我們其實最擔心的其實就是對重症家庭影響那的確在這尤其是近期就是這個法生效上路之後我們陸陸續續也接到一些澄清就是說這些重症的家庭他要聘僱移工的時候或他已經聘僱的移工\n203599\t222582\t那在照顧的狀態上面會做出改變或對於是否要留下來有移工開始會有一些不一樣的想法那這樣子的陳情的案件我們也陸陸續續聽到不少那包括網路上面其實大概有些在社群媒體上面也是可以看到這樣的訊息那這都其實這真的都不是我們樂見的事情\n223383\t239475\t所以剛剛在講到說我們也是思考到重症家庭的權益所以我們在這一次的配套裡面我特別希望讓重症家庭包括他的行政的審查都能夠比較優先包括可能像一般來講過去一般其實在求財階段你可能要求財要七天\n240596\t268036\t那接下來在這個如果是重症拿到重症的資格的話他在求財可能一天我們都盡量的去縮短這個他們可能相對應的程序或者是我們在懲辦案件的時候讓重症家庭可以優先就是希望盡量在減少一些重症家庭在這裡面會遇到的行政上面的可能一些阻礙或者是一些行政上面的時間上面的成本這是我們希望優先來幫助重症家庭的部分\n268696\t295997\t這個短期有效一個月後可能就很難達到我們的重症優先的效果那勞動部怎麼看這件事為什麼我們這樣講就像現在是因為不是這麼多我們的有80歲以上的老人家庭知道我覺得公民團體在推估初期真的申請的人不會這麼多可是後端越來越多人知道的時候這個效果可能會看半年後\n296522\t306564\t才會看到那個衝擊量進來所以預估10萬所以現在有很多人講說不會啊現在看起來一直在問勞動部說你們好像進來剛剛講的我們招資委員說\n308567\t326688\t沒有沒有多少人申請嘛量很低可是我們擔心的是半年後其實因為現在在趨勢上面還沒有辦法看得很清楚就像我剛才跟委員包括跟媒體報告的的確現在看起來量好像沒有一下暴增很多可是我們的確已經看到第二週比第一週的申請的人數是兩倍\n327549\t346067\t那未來第三週第四週會是什麼樣的趨勢這個部分可能還要更多的數據比較才能觀察到這個趨勢但我們只能盡我們所能的協助重症的家庭就像我想我在剛才在報告上因為說我的確我們也自己心清楚可能還是很難完全就是\n347366\t362564\t避免對重症家庭的影響這是我們只能盡我們作為一個行政部門的所能盡力的優先盡力的優先服務重症家庭這是我們所能做的事情對但能做的事情我們就盡量做至少這是我們行政部門的責任\n362864\t387244\t在過去多元免評的方案的條件裡面有一項條件是使用長照六個月後就取得我們的移工聘僱的資格這項條件確實是有效拖延非重症者跟重症者強人的時程所以在訂這個政策的時候除了縮短重症人僱主的求財招募申請時間另外一邊另一邊為什麼不延長非重症者\n388044\t411393\t雇主的求財招募的時間 申請的時間把兩邊的距離再度的能夠再拉長一點其實現在委員你的問題是要把時間再縮短嗎也就是說我覺得要把兩邊否則的話你現在在80歲大概7天的時間雖然講重症的時間事實上是可以\n411772\t437854\t可以短一點就申請得到我們是希望如果這兩邊時間可以拉長是不是就可以讓重症的事實上還是有優先的一個考量我們基本上現在是讓輕症的還是維持原本的因為這是原本的就是我們其實也沒有特別要去卡輕症的因為如果我們要特別把它程序拉長的話可能也會造成這邊輕症的申請者他們可能也會有抱怨所以我們基本上現在就是維持輕症的申請者他是\n438735\t456780\t原本的原本的但我們做的事情是讓重症優先就是而不是選我們的確現在沒有不是去選擇說我把輕症的程序給拉長因為這個這就是很難2021年我們就曾經發生生產業類的那個移工搶人大戰\n457760\t481943\t疫情限制了移工的入境導致我們的缺工頻傳然後部分看護工看準廠工價優渥的勞動條件以騷擾雇主或是代工方式來逼迫雇主藉由三方合一方式轉為廠工那讓需照顧家庭的雇主急著跳腳對此勞動部那時候去修正了一個辦法\n482563\t502341\t民定移工跨业的话转换的话要以同类别为优先也就是说看护家庭看护工如果14内没有雇主承接的话才可以转换到其他所以想问劳动部我们的聘雇新制上路的时候的一个问题早在今年初就已经传遍了整个移工社群\n502941\t523619\t媒體甚至還報導說今年7月移工1955的專線被打到爆重症家庭拼顧移工遇難跳槽所以請問今年7月到現在1955諮詢專線的數量到底有沒有增加還有社福類的移工轉換僱主的諮詢電話有多少的比例\n525641\t547221\t我想一直以來其實我們的1955的這個專線其實但來詢問移工相關的事項就是比較多那的確這幾個月來來詢問這個80歲以上免巴士量表的申請的程序等等的相關的問題的確也是增加不少不過詳細的數字我可能要跟我們部裡面的業務單位去確認一下才知道到底多了多少\n547421\t563584\t好那是不是會後再給我那不然也是再續問就是說新制上路至今我們的社福類移工的申請轉換雇主許可的申請案件量跟前幾個月比是不是有增加是就像你剛剛講的嗎\n564925\t587863\t對就是我剛才說到就是說我剛講這個大概1450左右的這個數字其實是等於是在修法後那因為修法而興取的資格有來申請的人包括80歲以上免巴氏量表的80就簡單80歲以上的長者跟70到79歲癌症二期這兩個加起來是這個數字那\n590645\t608703\t這個數字確實我們看到了一些增加的趨勢但是後續真的還需要一點時間我們也不敢斷言是不是之後一定會必然增加其實從勞動部的角度我們也不希望這個數字增加因為我們在提醒器重則輕這件事情它其實是一個提醒它不是我們的政策目標\n610284\t627199\t器重責輕並不是我們的政策目標或者我們政策目標是要增加大量的人來申請這不是我們政策目標可是勞動部做一個行政部門要為可能會有增加的人數尤其是如果真的增加很多的話我們必須做準備這是一個行政部門該有的責任\n627779\t642304\t所以我們也不能把他想的好像很樂觀或者是都沒問題這樣可能也會出問題所以我們必須把情境想可能比較嚴峻一點可為嚴峻狀況做準備如果真的沒有人來這麼多的話那我想我們我們做的準備也比較能夠因應大家的需求\n644105\t672761\t既然國內我們的缺工日漸嚴重勞動部去提升 提升什麼因為因為本期獲知部分移工安置中心等待轉換僱主的移工因為照顧技術不好在入境半年內就跟僱主就跟他解約了可是在移工在解約之後比較不容易轉換所以近日當然有很多越南籍移工遇到這樣的問題所以有沒有考慮去提升他們的照顧技術活化在安置中心等待的\n674302\t693491\t時間內去做這件事情讓移工能夠順利轉換也可以解決那個缺工的問題我想其實我們接下來包括我們近期其實也針對我們的轉換的中心會把它強化它的功能那就是希望讓移工的轉換能夠更順暢不要有很多可能合約到期以後它就必須被送回去被送回國家\n693971\t717067\t我們更希望他能夠被優先的承接那第二個該委員說關於我們這個學習的課程我們接下來也會來強化那尤其包括語言的部分或者是照顧的技巧的部分我想這都是我們想強化的方向再麻煩我們的衛福部的次長我想這項政策按理說不應該是勞動部的事是不是衛福部在推動移工學習上有什麼貢獻\n718451\t745824\t是 非常感謝委員對於這個問題的關心我包委員我們在這個大院通過這個46條以後本部跟勞動部一直維持非常非常密切的一個聯繫因為經過左院長的一個指示我們當時馬上就成立一個所謂雙次長的一個會議那洪聖翰 洪部長還對我們非常非常有很多的一個指導那跟我們報告我們主要就幾個部分\n746624\t767786\t就是大家最關心的一個就是對於重症的一個這個衝擊所以我們基本上是輕重分流而且重症可是我現在看你們開的事實上有的是線上課程可是線上課程跟實體課程還是有落差所以移工區上課如果要實體課程的話當然因為僱主在這段時間沒有人照顧需要常照服務資源所以請問一下\n768906\t790663\t衛福部有什麼樣一個對應的作為是 報告委員其實因為最主要就是這個部分如果說移工他要來上課的話其實基本上還在經過這一個顧主他們的家庭的同意那我也必須要承認就是說一般來說顧主他通常還是會對於這個準價的部分可能會有一些比較他們自己本身的需要\n791423\t819703\t那當然我們也會這邊還是來加強來宣導因為其實移工他來上其實對於整個照顧的品質基本上還是有幫助所以我們基本上這邊還是會跟這一個病故的家庭來多宣導最後我希望是不是可以考慮因為大概整個照顧歷程平均10年從衰落到離世這個時間點大概10年所以問衛福部說我覺得在長期照顧在整個照顧方式的選項裡面是不是應該把\n821354\t836772\t移工的照顾跟住宿型机构整合进来不是只有你的衰弱到中度后边呢就是交由家庭来去做解决那你的看法如何我觉得这个确实我们我觉得这是一个不错的方向我也会来\n837633\t855124\t來跟同仁來嚴寧就是剛剛委員剛剛所說的這部分確實啦因為整個這一個我們長照3.0也即將在明年上路那我想這個裡面對於怎麼樣把家庭康復工這個也視為我們未來的一個整個潛在人力我想這個所以進一步再問就是\n856164\t882797\t既然這次把80歲的巴士兩表廢除所以我們有沒有考慮因為2021年的話身心障礙者需求評估ICF曾經做過一次改革那老人照顧的需求評估為何不做改革整個用你的長照需求做評估報告委員其實基本上巴士兩表跟我們現在所謂CMS基本上還是我必須要說還是有點不太一樣巴士兩表其實基本上大概就是說你要不要聘僱外籍家庭\n883317\t912658\t那CMS不能用整個那個CMS來做評估嗎包委員還是兩個還是不一樣我舉個我打個比方這個怕是兩不一樣有點像就是資格考博士班的資格考可是呢你的CMS有點像就是那個博士班口試啊這兩個還是不一樣一個是資格一個是有民間團體已經開始有提出這樣子的一個想法所以你們評估看看然後再把評估報告給我因為時間關係好OK非常感謝委員的一個指教謝謝好謝謝林耀勳委員發言\n","txt":"主席麻煩我們的洪部長有請洪部長部長早 去年底我們就通過了那個就業服務法第46條修法\n恐怕就将打乱包括重度需求者跟失智症者的照顾规划新法大概开放80岁以上或70岁以上罹患癌症第二期的长辈不用经过专业评估就可以直接聘雇我们的外籍看护这样一来增加了53万有评估资格者评估移工资格者\n那預估也是將近有10萬的人要提出申請特別是這些申請人多數都是比較好照顧的長輩那將把真正需求的重症者會排擠到後邊所以本席非常擔心未來將是移工更難請薪資飆高有錢也找不到人我想這不是只有我們的擔心也不是說那真的是\n剛剛趙志偉講的說政府在恐嚇事實上民間團體也提出來所以7月28日那社福總盟跟很多的相關的因為總盟大概60幾個團體那他們跟本席共同召開記者會希望落實在呼籲落實我們的重症優先會中臺灣的失智症協會還表示說失智症患者家庭從來都沒有被移工選\n而是沒有挑選移工的條件那他們根本是沒有選擇任何有選擇權而且他們是被挑選的\n所以我們很擔心的是未來重症家庭將更難請到移工或者是因為代價昂貴而請不起移工移工本來就是第一個國跟國的競爭我們本來就很難競爭得過日韓兩個國家還有產業跟產業之間的競爭今天看護工要去競爭其他跟其他產業競爭本來就一定困難更何況現在還有所謂的\n避重就輕也就是重症的真的事實上會很難找到人所以想問勞動部 勞動部提出的六大配套當中提出來說重症者最快一天內能夠完成國內推薦7天可以獲得招募的許可函\n如此能夠節省13到21天便可進入國外選工的程序可是人力仲介公司早在半年前就已經開始宣傳我們的聘僱新制同時對僱主跟移工來伸手招攬所以重症者家庭勢必是國外便會是可能招募不到人所以我不知道勞動部對於幫重症節省的這個21天有效嗎\n跟委員說明的確這個修法不管是在修法的期間或修法通過我們其實最擔心的其實就是對重症家庭影響那的確在這尤其是近期就是這個法生效上路之後我們陸陸續續也接到一些澄清就是說這些重症的家庭他要聘僱移工的時候或他已經聘僱的移工\n那在照顧的狀態上面會做出改變或對於是否要留下來有移工開始會有一些不一樣的想法那這樣子的陳情的案件我們也陸陸續續聽到不少那包括網路上面其實大概有些在社群媒體上面也是可以看到這樣的訊息那這都其實這真的都不是我們樂見的事情\n所以剛剛在講到說我們也是思考到重症家庭的權益所以我們在這一次的配套裡面我特別希望讓重症家庭包括他的行政的審查都能夠比較優先包括可能像一般來講過去一般其實在求財階段你可能要求財要七天\n那接下來在這個如果是重症拿到重症的資格的話他在求財可能一天我們都盡量的去縮短這個他們可能相對應的程序或者是我們在懲辦案件的時候讓重症家庭可以優先就是希望盡量在減少一些重症家庭在這裡面會遇到的行政上面的可能一些阻礙或者是一些行政上面的時間上面的成本這是我們希望優先來幫助重症家庭的部分\n這個短期有效一個月後可能就很難達到我們的重症優先的效果那勞動部怎麼看這件事為什麼我們這樣講就像現在是因為不是這麼多我們的有80歲以上的老人家庭知道我覺得公民團體在推估初期真的申請的人不會這麼多可是後端越來越多人知道的時候這個效果可能會看半年後\n才會看到那個衝擊量進來所以預估10萬所以現在有很多人講說不會啊現在看起來一直在問勞動部說你們好像進來剛剛講的我們招資委員說\n沒有沒有多少人申請嘛量很低可是我們擔心的是半年後其實因為現在在趨勢上面還沒有辦法看得很清楚就像我剛才跟委員包括跟媒體報告的的確現在看起來量好像沒有一下暴增很多可是我們的確已經看到第二週比第一週的申請的人數是兩倍\n那未來第三週第四週會是什麼樣的趨勢這個部分可能還要更多的數據比較才能觀察到這個趨勢但我們只能盡我們所能的協助重症的家庭就像我想我在剛才在報告上因為說我的確我們也自己心清楚可能還是很難完全就是\n避免對重症家庭的影響這是我們只能盡我們作為一個行政部門的所能盡力的優先盡力的優先服務重症家庭這是我們所能做的事情對但能做的事情我們就盡量做至少這是我們行政部門的責任\n在過去多元免評的方案的條件裡面有一項條件是使用長照六個月後就取得我們的移工聘僱的資格這項條件確實是有效拖延非重症者跟重症者強人的時程所以在訂這個政策的時候除了縮短重症人僱主的求財招募申請時間另外一邊另一邊為什麼不延長非重症者\n雇主的求財招募的時間 申請的時間把兩邊的距離再度的能夠再拉長一點其實現在委員你的問題是要把時間再縮短嗎也就是說我覺得要把兩邊否則的話你現在在80歲大概7天的時間雖然講重症的時間事實上是可以\n可以短一點就申請得到我們是希望如果這兩邊時間可以拉長是不是就可以讓重症的事實上還是有優先的一個考量我們基本上現在是讓輕症的還是維持原本的因為這是原本的就是我們其實也沒有特別要去卡輕症的因為如果我們要特別把它程序拉長的話可能也會造成這邊輕症的申請者他們可能也會有抱怨所以我們基本上現在就是維持輕症的申請者他是\n原本的原本的但我們做的事情是讓重症優先就是而不是選我們的確現在沒有不是去選擇說我把輕症的程序給拉長因為這個這就是很難2021年我們就曾經發生生產業類的那個移工搶人大戰\n疫情限制了移工的入境導致我們的缺工頻傳然後部分看護工看準廠工價優渥的勞動條件以騷擾雇主或是代工方式來逼迫雇主藉由三方合一方式轉為廠工那讓需照顧家庭的雇主急著跳腳對此勞動部那時候去修正了一個辦法\n民定移工跨业的话转换的话要以同类别为优先也就是说看护家庭看护工如果14内没有雇主承接的话才可以转换到其他所以想问劳动部我们的聘雇新制上路的时候的一个问题早在今年初就已经传遍了整个移工社群\n媒體甚至還報導說今年7月移工1955的專線被打到爆重症家庭拼顧移工遇難跳槽所以請問今年7月到現在1955諮詢專線的數量到底有沒有增加還有社福類的移工轉換僱主的諮詢電話有多少的比例\n我想一直以來其實我們的1955的這個專線其實但來詢問移工相關的事項就是比較多那的確這幾個月來來詢問這個80歲以上免巴士量表的申請的程序等等的相關的問題的確也是增加不少不過詳細的數字我可能要跟我們部裡面的業務單位去確認一下才知道到底多了多少\n好那是不是會後再給我那不然也是再續問就是說新制上路至今我們的社福類移工的申請轉換雇主許可的申請案件量跟前幾個月比是不是有增加是就像你剛剛講的嗎\n對就是我剛才說到就是說我剛講這個大概1450左右的這個數字其實是等於是在修法後那因為修法而興取的資格有來申請的人包括80歲以上免巴氏量表的80就簡單80歲以上的長者跟70到79歲癌症二期這兩個加起來是這個數字那\n這個數字確實我們看到了一些增加的趨勢但是後續真的還需要一點時間我們也不敢斷言是不是之後一定會必然增加其實從勞動部的角度我們也不希望這個數字增加因為我們在提醒器重則輕這件事情它其實是一個提醒它不是我們的政策目標\n器重責輕並不是我們的政策目標或者我們政策目標是要增加大量的人來申請這不是我們政策目標可是勞動部做一個行政部門要為可能會有增加的人數尤其是如果真的增加很多的話我們必須做準備這是一個行政部門該有的責任\n所以我們也不能把他想的好像很樂觀或者是都沒問題這樣可能也會出問題所以我們必須把情境想可能比較嚴峻一點可為嚴峻狀況做準備如果真的沒有人來這麼多的話那我想我們我們做的準備也比較能夠因應大家的需求\n既然國內我們的缺工日漸嚴重勞動部去提升 提升什麼因為因為本期獲知部分移工安置中心等待轉換僱主的移工因為照顧技術不好在入境半年內就跟僱主就跟他解約了可是在移工在解約之後比較不容易轉換所以近日當然有很多越南籍移工遇到這樣的問題所以有沒有考慮去提升他們的照顧技術活化在安置中心等待的\n時間內去做這件事情讓移工能夠順利轉換也可以解決那個缺工的問題我想其實我們接下來包括我們近期其實也針對我們的轉換的中心會把它強化它的功能那就是希望讓移工的轉換能夠更順暢不要有很多可能合約到期以後它就必須被送回去被送回國家\n我們更希望他能夠被優先的承接那第二個該委員說關於我們這個學習的課程我們接下來也會來強化那尤其包括語言的部分或者是照顧的技巧的部分我想這都是我們想強化的方向再麻煩我們的衛福部的次長我想這項政策按理說不應該是勞動部的事是不是衛福部在推動移工學習上有什麼貢獻\n是 非常感謝委員對於這個問題的關心我包委員我們在這個大院通過這個46條以後本部跟勞動部一直維持非常非常密切的一個聯繫因為經過左院長的一個指示我們當時馬上就成立一個所謂雙次長的一個會議那洪聖翰 洪部長還對我們非常非常有很多的一個指導那跟我們報告我們主要就幾個部分\n就是大家最關心的一個就是對於重症的一個這個衝擊所以我們基本上是輕重分流而且重症可是我現在看你們開的事實上有的是線上課程可是線上課程跟實體課程還是有落差所以移工區上課如果要實體課程的話當然因為僱主在這段時間沒有人照顧需要常照服務資源所以請問一下\n衛福部有什麼樣一個對應的作為是 報告委員其實因為最主要就是這個部分如果說移工他要來上課的話其實基本上還在經過這一個顧主他們的家庭的同意那我也必須要承認就是說一般來說顧主他通常還是會對於這個準價的部分可能會有一些比較他們自己本身的需要\n那當然我們也會這邊還是來加強來宣導因為其實移工他來上其實對於整個照顧的品質基本上還是有幫助所以我們基本上這邊還是會跟這一個病故的家庭來多宣導最後我希望是不是可以考慮因為大概整個照顧歷程平均10年從衰落到離世這個時間點大概10年所以問衛福部說我覺得在長期照顧在整個照顧方式的選項裡面是不是應該把\n移工的照顾跟住宿型机构整合进来不是只有你的衰弱到中度后边呢就是交由家庭来去做解决那你的看法如何我觉得这个确实我们我觉得这是一个不错的方向我也会来\n來跟同仁來嚴寧就是剛剛委員剛剛所說的這部分確實啦因為整個這一個我們長照3.0也即將在明年上路那我想這個裡面對於怎麼樣把家庭康復工這個也視為我們未來的一個整個潛在人力我想這個所以進一步再問就是\n既然這次把80歲的巴士兩表廢除所以我們有沒有考慮因為2021年的話身心障礙者需求評估ICF曾經做過一次改革那老人照顧的需求評估為何不做改革整個用你的長照需求做評估報告委員其實基本上巴士兩表跟我們現在所謂CMS基本上還是我必須要說還是有點不太一樣巴士兩表其實基本上大概就是說你要不要聘僱外籍家庭\n那CMS不能用整個那個CMS來做評估嗎包委員還是兩個還是不一樣我舉個我打個比方這個怕是兩不一樣有點像就是資格考博士班的資格考可是呢你的CMS有點像就是那個博士班口試啊這兩個還是不一樣一個是資格一個是有民間團體已經開始有提出這樣子的一個想法所以你們評估看看然後再把評估報告給我因為時間關係好OK非常感謝委員的一個指教謝謝好謝謝林耀勳委員發言\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:12.643 --> 00:28.429\n主席麻煩我們的洪部長有請洪部長部長早去年底我們就通過了那個就業服務法第46條修法\n\n00:29.356 --> 00:50.961\n恐怕就将打乱包括重度需求者跟失智症者的照顾规划新法大概开放80岁以上或70岁以上罹患癌症第二期的长辈不用经过专业评估就可以直接聘雇我们的外籍看护这样一来增加了53万有评估资格者评估移工资格者\n\n00:51.465 --> 01:12.398\n那預估也是將近有10萬的人要提出申請特別是這些申請人多數都是比較好照顧的長輩那將把真正需求的重症者會排擠到後邊所以本席非常擔心未來將是移工更難請薪資飆高有錢也找不到人我想這不是只有我們的擔心也不是說那真的是\n\n01:15.207 --> 01:43.379\n剛剛趙志偉講的說政府在恐嚇事實上民間團體也提出來所以7月28日那社福總盟跟很多的相關的因為總盟大概60幾個團體那他們跟本席共同召開記者會希望落實在呼籲落實我們的重症優先會中臺灣的失智症協會還表示說失智症患者家庭從來都沒有被移工選\n\n01:44.369 --> 01:52.472\n而是沒有挑選移工的條件那他們根本是沒有選擇任何有選擇權而且他們是被挑選的\n\n01:53.106 --> 02:17.108\n所以我們很擔心的是未來重症家庭將更難請到移工或者是因為代價昂貴而請不起移工移工本來就是第一個國跟國的競爭我們本來就很難競爭得過日韓兩個國家還有產業跟產業之間的競爭今天看護工要去競爭其他跟其他產業競爭本來就一定困難更何況現在還有所謂的\n\n02:18.171 --> 02:33.167\n避重就輕也就是重症的真的事實上會很難找到人所以想問勞動部勞動部提出的六大配套當中提出來說重症者最快一天內能夠完成國內推薦7天可以獲得招募的許可函\n\n02:33.735 --> 02:57.889\n如此能夠節省13到21天便可進入國外選工的程序可是人力仲介公司早在半年前就已經開始宣傳我們的聘僱新制同時對僱主跟移工來伸手招攬所以重症者家庭勢必是國外便會是可能招募不到人所以我不知道勞動部對於幫重症節省的這個21天有效嗎\n\n02:59.697 --> 03:22.618\n跟委員說明的確這個修法不管是在修法的期間或修法通過我們其實最擔心的其實就是對重症家庭影響那的確在這尤其是近期就是這個法生效上路之後我們陸陸續續也接到一些澄清就是說這些重症的家庭他要聘僱移工的時候或他已經聘僱的移工\n\n03:23.599 --> 03:42.582\n那在照顧的狀態上面會做出改變或對於是否要留下來有移工開始會有一些不一樣的想法那這樣子的陳情的案件我們也陸陸續續聽到不少那包括網路上面其實大概有些在社群媒體上面也是可以看到這樣的訊息那這都其實這真的都不是我們樂見的事情\n\n03:43.383 --> 03:59.475\n所以剛剛在講到說我們也是思考到重症家庭的權益所以我們在這一次的配套裡面我特別希望讓重症家庭包括他的行政的審查都能夠比較優先包括可能像一般來講過去一般其實在求財階段你可能要求財要七天\n\n04:00.596 --> 04:28.036\n那接下來在這個如果是重症拿到重症的資格的話他在求財可能一天我們都盡量的去縮短這個他們可能相對應的程序或者是我們在懲辦案件的時候讓重症家庭可以優先就是希望盡量在減少一些重症家庭在這裡面會遇到的行政上面的可能一些阻礙或者是一些行政上面的時間上面的成本這是我們希望優先來幫助重症家庭的部分\n\n04:28.696 --> 04:55.997\n這個短期有效一個月後可能就很難達到我們的重症優先的效果那勞動部怎麼看這件事為什麼我們這樣講就像現在是因為不是這麼多我們的有80歲以上的老人家庭知道我覺得公民團體在推估初期真的申請的人不會這麼多可是後端越來越多人知道的時候這個效果可能會看半年後\n\n04:56.522 --> 05:06.564\n才會看到那個衝擊量進來所以預估10萬所以現在有很多人講說不會啊現在看起來一直在問勞動部說你們好像進來剛剛講的我們招資委員說\n\n05:08.567 --> 05:26.688\n沒有沒有多少人申請嘛量很低可是我們擔心的是半年後其實因為現在在趨勢上面還沒有辦法看得很清楚就像我剛才跟委員包括跟媒體報告的的確現在看起來量好像沒有一下暴增很多可是我們的確已經看到第二週比第一週的申請的人數是兩倍\n\n05:27.549 --> 05:46.067\n那未來第三週第四週會是什麼樣的趨勢這個部分可能還要更多的數據比較才能觀察到這個趨勢但我們只能盡我們所能的協助重症的家庭就像我想我在剛才在報告上因為說我的確我們也自己心清楚可能還是很難完全就是\n\n05:47.366 --> 06:02.564\n避免對重症家庭的影響這是我們只能盡我們作為一個行政部門的所能盡力的優先盡力的優先服務重症家庭這是我們所能做的事情對但能做的事情我們就盡量做至少這是我們行政部門的責任\n\n06:02.864 --> 06:27.244\n在過去多元免評的方案的條件裡面有一項條件是使用長照六個月後就取得我們的移工聘僱的資格這項條件確實是有效拖延非重症者跟重症者強人的時程所以在訂這個政策的時候除了縮短重症人僱主的求財招募申請時間另外一邊另一邊為什麼不延長非重症者\n\n06:28.044 --> 06:51.393\n雇主的求財招募的時間申請的時間把兩邊的距離再度的能夠再拉長一點其實現在委員你的問題是要把時間再縮短嗎也就是說我覺得要把兩邊否則的話你現在在80歲大概7天的時間雖然講重症的時間事實上是可以\n\n06:51.772 --> 07:17.854\n可以短一點就申請得到我們是希望如果這兩邊時間可以拉長是不是就可以讓重症的事實上還是有優先的一個考量我們基本上現在是讓輕症的還是維持原本的因為這是原本的就是我們其實也沒有特別要去卡輕症的因為如果我們要特別把它程序拉長的話可能也會造成這邊輕症的申請者他們可能也會有抱怨所以我們基本上現在就是維持輕症的申請者他是\n\n07:18.735 --> 07:36.780\n原本的原本的但我們做的事情是讓重症優先就是而不是選我們的確現在沒有不是去選擇說我把輕症的程序給拉長因為這個這就是很難2021年我們就曾經發生生產業類的那個移工搶人大戰\n\n07:37.760 --> 08:01.943\n疫情限制了移工的入境導致我們的缺工頻傳然後部分看護工看準廠工價優渥的勞動條件以騷擾雇主或是代工方式來逼迫雇主藉由三方合一方式轉為廠工那讓需照顧家庭的雇主急著跳腳對此勞動部那時候去修正了一個辦法\n\n08:02.563 --> 08:22.341\n民定移工跨业的话转换的话要以同类别为优先也就是说看护家庭看护工如果14内没有雇主承接的话才可以转换到其他所以想问劳动部我们的聘雇新制上路的时候的一个问题早在今年初就已经传遍了整个移工社群\n\n08:22.941 --> 08:43.619\n媒體甚至還報導說今年7月移工1955的專線被打到爆重症家庭拼顧移工遇難跳槽所以請問今年7月到現在1955諮詢專線的數量到底有沒有增加還有社福類的移工轉換僱主的諮詢電話有多少的比例\n\n08:45.641 --> 09:07.221\n我想一直以來其實我們的1955的這個專線其實但來詢問移工相關的事項就是比較多那的確這幾個月來來詢問這個80歲以上免巴士量表的申請的程序等等的相關的問題的確也是增加不少不過詳細的數字我可能要跟我們部裡面的業務單位去確認一下才知道到底多了多少\n\n09:07.421 --> 09:23.584\n好那是不是會後再給我那不然也是再續問就是說新制上路至今我們的社福類移工的申請轉換雇主許可的申請案件量跟前幾個月比是不是有增加是就像你剛剛講的嗎\n\n09:24.925 --> 09:47.863\n對就是我剛才說到就是說我剛講這個大概1450左右的這個數字其實是等於是在修法後那因為修法而興取的資格有來申請的人包括80歲以上免巴氏量表的80就簡單80歲以上的長者跟70到79歲癌症二期這兩個加起來是這個數字那\n\n09:50.645 --> 10:08.703\n這個數字確實我們看到了一些增加的趨勢但是後續真的還需要一點時間我們也不敢斷言是不是之後一定會必然增加其實從勞動部的角度我們也不希望這個數字增加因為我們在提醒器重則輕這件事情它其實是一個提醒它不是我們的政策目標\n\n10:10.284 --> 10:27.199\n器重責輕並不是我們的政策目標或者我們政策目標是要增加大量的人來申請這不是我們政策目標可是勞動部做一個行政部門要為可能會有增加的人數尤其是如果真的增加很多的話我們必須做準備這是一個行政部門該有的責任\n\n10:27.779 --> 10:42.304\n所以我們也不能把他想的好像很樂觀或者是都沒問題這樣可能也會出問題所以我們必須把情境想可能比較嚴峻一點可為嚴峻狀況做準備如果真的沒有人來這麼多的話那我想我們我們做的準備也比較能夠因應大家的需求\n\n10:44.105 --> 11:12.761\n既然國內我們的缺工日漸嚴重勞動部去提升提升什麼因為因為本期獲知部分移工安置中心等待轉換僱主的移工因為照顧技術不好在入境半年內就跟僱主就跟他解約了可是在移工在解約之後比較不容易轉換所以近日當然有很多越南籍移工遇到這樣的問題所以有沒有考慮去提升他們的照顧技術活化在安置中心等待的\n\n11:14.302 --> 11:33.491\n時間內去做這件事情讓移工能夠順利轉換也可以解決那個缺工的問題我想其實我們接下來包括我們近期其實也針對我們的轉換的中心會把它強化它的功能那就是希望讓移工的轉換能夠更順暢不要有很多可能合約到期以後它就必須被送回去被送回國家\n\n11:33.971 --> 11:57.067\n我們更希望他能夠被優先的承接那第二個該委員說關於我們這個學習的課程我們接下來也會來強化那尤其包括語言的部分或者是照顧的技巧的部分我想這都是我們想強化的方向再麻煩我們的衛福部的次長我想這項政策按理說不應該是勞動部的事是不是衛福部在推動移工學習上有什麼貢獻\n\n11:58.451 --> 12:25.824\n是非常感謝委員對於這個問題的關心我包委員我們在這個大院通過這個46條以後本部跟勞動部一直維持非常非常密切的一個聯繫因為經過左院長的一個指示我們當時馬上就成立一個所謂雙次長的一個會議那洪聖翰洪部長還對我們非常非常有很多的一個指導那跟我們報告我們主要就幾個部分\n\n12:26.624 --> 12:47.786\n就是大家最關心的一個就是對於重症的一個這個衝擊所以我們基本上是輕重分流而且重症可是我現在看你們開的事實上有的是線上課程可是線上課程跟實體課程還是有落差所以移工區上課如果要實體課程的話當然因為僱主在這段時間沒有人照顧需要常照服務資源所以請問一下\n\n12:48.906 --> 13:10.663\n衛福部有什麼樣一個對應的作為是報告委員其實因為最主要就是這個部分如果說移工他要來上課的話其實基本上還在經過這一個顧主他們的家庭的同意那我也必須要承認就是說一般來說顧主他通常還是會對於這個準價的部分可能會有一些比較他們自己本身的需要\n\n13:11.423 --> 13:39.703\n那當然我們也會這邊還是來加強來宣導因為其實移工他來上其實對於整個照顧的品質基本上還是有幫助所以我們基本上這邊還是會跟這一個病故的家庭來多宣導最後我希望是不是可以考慮因為大概整個照顧歷程平均10年從衰落到離世這個時間點大概10年所以問衛福部說我覺得在長期照顧在整個照顧方式的選項裡面是不是應該把\n\n13:41.354 --> 13:56.772\n移工的照顾跟住宿型机构整合进来不是只有你的衰弱到中度后边呢就是交由家庭来去做解决那你的看法如何我觉得这个确实我们我觉得这是一个不错的方向我也会来\n\n13:57.633 --> 14:15.124\n來跟同仁來嚴寧就是剛剛委員剛剛所說的這部分確實啦因為整個這一個我們長照3.0也即將在明年上路那我想這個裡面對於怎麼樣把家庭康復工這個也視為我們未來的一個整個潛在人力我想這個所以進一步再問就是\n\n14:16.164 --> 14:42.797\n既然這次把80歲的巴士兩表廢除所以我們有沒有考慮因為2021年的話身心障礙者需求評估ICF曾經做過一次改革那老人照顧的需求評估為何不做改革整個用你的長照需求做評估報告委員其實基本上巴士兩表跟我們現在所謂CMS基本上還是我必須要說還是有點不太一樣巴士兩表其實基本上大概就是說你要不要聘僱外籍家庭\n\n14:43.317 --> 15:12.658\n那CMS不能用整個那個CMS來做評估嗎包委員還是兩個還是不一樣我舉個我打個比方這個怕是兩不一樣有點像就是資格考博士班的資格考可是呢你的CMS有點像就是那個博士班口試啊這兩個還是不一樣一個是資格一個是有民間團體已經開始有提出這樣子的一個想法所以你們評估看看然後再把評估報告給我因為時間關係好OK非常感謝委員的一個指教謝謝好謝謝林耀勳委員發言\n\n","segments":[{"start":12.643,"end":28.429,"text":"主席麻煩我們的洪部長有請洪部長部長早 去年底我們就通過了那個就業服務法第46條修法"},{"start":29.356,"end":50.961,"text":"恐怕就将打乱包括重度需求者跟失智症者的照顾规划新法大概开放80岁以上或70岁以上罹患癌症第二期的长辈不用经过专业评估就可以直接聘雇我们的外籍看护这样一来增加了53万有评估资格者评估移工资格者"},{"start":51.465,"end":72.398,"text":"那預估也是將近有10萬的人要提出申請特別是這些申請人多數都是比較好照顧的長輩那將把真正需求的重症者會排擠到後邊所以本席非常擔心未來將是移工更難請薪資飆高有錢也找不到人我想這不是只有我們的擔心也不是說那真的是"},{"start":75.207,"end":103.379,"text":"剛剛趙志偉講的說政府在恐嚇事實上民間團體也提出來所以7月28日那社福總盟跟很多的相關的因為總盟大概60幾個團體那他們跟本席共同召開記者會希望落實在呼籲落實我們的重症優先會中臺灣的失智症協會還表示說失智症患者家庭從來都沒有被移工選"},{"start":104.369,"end":112.472,"text":"而是沒有挑選移工的條件那他們根本是沒有選擇任何有選擇權而且他們是被挑選的"},{"start":113.106,"end":137.108,"text":"所以我們很擔心的是未來重症家庭將更難請到移工或者是因為代價昂貴而請不起移工移工本來就是第一個國跟國的競爭我們本來就很難競爭得過日韓兩個國家還有產業跟產業之間的競爭今天看護工要去競爭其他跟其他產業競爭本來就一定困難更何況現在還有所謂的"},{"start":138.171,"end":153.167,"text":"避重就輕也就是重症的真的事實上會很難找到人所以想問勞動部 勞動部提出的六大配套當中提出來說重症者最快一天內能夠完成國內推薦7天可以獲得招募的許可函"},{"start":153.735,"end":177.889,"text":"如此能夠節省13到21天便可進入國外選工的程序可是人力仲介公司早在半年前就已經開始宣傳我們的聘僱新制同時對僱主跟移工來伸手招攬所以重症者家庭勢必是國外便會是可能招募不到人所以我不知道勞動部對於幫重症節省的這個21天有效嗎"},{"start":179.697,"end":202.618,"text":"跟委員說明的確這個修法不管是在修法的期間或修法通過我們其實最擔心的其實就是對重症家庭影響那的確在這尤其是近期就是這個法生效上路之後我們陸陸續續也接到一些澄清就是說這些重症的家庭他要聘僱移工的時候或他已經聘僱的移工"},{"start":203.599,"end":222.582,"text":"那在照顧的狀態上面會做出改變或對於是否要留下來有移工開始會有一些不一樣的想法那這樣子的陳情的案件我們也陸陸續續聽到不少那包括網路上面其實大概有些在社群媒體上面也是可以看到這樣的訊息那這都其實這真的都不是我們樂見的事情"},{"start":223.383,"end":239.475,"text":"所以剛剛在講到說我們也是思考到重症家庭的權益所以我們在這一次的配套裡面我特別希望讓重症家庭包括他的行政的審查都能夠比較優先包括可能像一般來講過去一般其實在求財階段你可能要求財要七天"},{"start":240.596,"end":268.036,"text":"那接下來在這個如果是重症拿到重症的資格的話他在求財可能一天我們都盡量的去縮短這個他們可能相對應的程序或者是我們在懲辦案件的時候讓重症家庭可以優先就是希望盡量在減少一些重症家庭在這裡面會遇到的行政上面的可能一些阻礙或者是一些行政上面的時間上面的成本這是我們希望優先來幫助重症家庭的部分"},{"start":268.696,"end":295.997,"text":"這個短期有效一個月後可能就很難達到我們的重症優先的效果那勞動部怎麼看這件事為什麼我們這樣講就像現在是因為不是這麼多我們的有80歲以上的老人家庭知道我覺得公民團體在推估初期真的申請的人不會這麼多可是後端越來越多人知道的時候這個效果可能會看半年後"},{"start":296.522,"end":306.564,"text":"才會看到那個衝擊量進來所以預估10萬所以現在有很多人講說不會啊現在看起來一直在問勞動部說你們好像進來剛剛講的我們招資委員說"},{"start":308.567,"end":326.688,"text":"沒有沒有多少人申請嘛量很低可是我們擔心的是半年後其實因為現在在趨勢上面還沒有辦法看得很清楚就像我剛才跟委員包括跟媒體報告的的確現在看起來量好像沒有一下暴增很多可是我們的確已經看到第二週比第一週的申請的人數是兩倍"},{"start":327.549,"end":346.067,"text":"那未來第三週第四週會是什麼樣的趨勢這個部分可能還要更多的數據比較才能觀察到這個趨勢但我們只能盡我們所能的協助重症的家庭就像我想我在剛才在報告上因為說我的確我們也自己心清楚可能還是很難完全就是"},{"start":347.366,"end":362.564,"text":"避免對重症家庭的影響這是我們只能盡我們作為一個行政部門的所能盡力的優先盡力的優先服務重症家庭這是我們所能做的事情對但能做的事情我們就盡量做至少這是我們行政部門的責任"},{"start":362.864,"end":387.244,"text":"在過去多元免評的方案的條件裡面有一項條件是使用長照六個月後就取得我們的移工聘僱的資格這項條件確實是有效拖延非重症者跟重症者強人的時程所以在訂這個政策的時候除了縮短重症人僱主的求財招募申請時間另外一邊另一邊為什麼不延長非重症者"},{"start":388.044,"end":411.393,"text":"雇主的求財招募的時間 申請的時間把兩邊的距離再度的能夠再拉長一點其實現在委員你的問題是要把時間再縮短嗎也就是說我覺得要把兩邊否則的話你現在在80歲大概7天的時間雖然講重症的時間事實上是可以"},{"start":411.772,"end":437.854,"text":"可以短一點就申請得到我們是希望如果這兩邊時間可以拉長是不是就可以讓重症的事實上還是有優先的一個考量我們基本上現在是讓輕症的還是維持原本的因為這是原本的就是我們其實也沒有特別要去卡輕症的因為如果我們要特別把它程序拉長的話可能也會造成這邊輕症的申請者他們可能也會有抱怨所以我們基本上現在就是維持輕症的申請者他是"},{"start":438.735,"end":456.78,"text":"原本的原本的但我們做的事情是讓重症優先就是而不是選我們的確現在沒有不是去選擇說我把輕症的程序給拉長因為這個這就是很難2021年我們就曾經發生生產業類的那個移工搶人大戰"},{"start":457.76,"end":481.943,"text":"疫情限制了移工的入境導致我們的缺工頻傳然後部分看護工看準廠工價優渥的勞動條件以騷擾雇主或是代工方式來逼迫雇主藉由三方合一方式轉為廠工那讓需照顧家庭的雇主急著跳腳對此勞動部那時候去修正了一個辦法"},{"start":482.563,"end":502.341,"text":"民定移工跨业的话转换的话要以同类别为优先也就是说看护家庭看护工如果14内没有雇主承接的话才可以转换到其他所以想问劳动部我们的聘雇新制上路的时候的一个问题早在今年初就已经传遍了整个移工社群"},{"start":502.941,"end":523.619,"text":"媒體甚至還報導說今年7月移工1955的專線被打到爆重症家庭拼顧移工遇難跳槽所以請問今年7月到現在1955諮詢專線的數量到底有沒有增加還有社福類的移工轉換僱主的諮詢電話有多少的比例"},{"start":525.641,"end":547.221,"text":"我想一直以來其實我們的1955的這個專線其實但來詢問移工相關的事項就是比較多那的確這幾個月來來詢問這個80歲以上免巴士量表的申請的程序等等的相關的問題的確也是增加不少不過詳細的數字我可能要跟我們部裡面的業務單位去確認一下才知道到底多了多少"},{"start":547.421,"end":563.584,"text":"好那是不是會後再給我那不然也是再續問就是說新制上路至今我們的社福類移工的申請轉換雇主許可的申請案件量跟前幾個月比是不是有增加是就像你剛剛講的嗎"},{"start":564.925,"end":587.863,"text":"對就是我剛才說到就是說我剛講這個大概1450左右的這個數字其實是等於是在修法後那因為修法而興取的資格有來申請的人包括80歲以上免巴氏量表的80就簡單80歲以上的長者跟70到79歲癌症二期這兩個加起來是這個數字那"},{"start":590.645,"end":608.703,"text":"這個數字確實我們看到了一些增加的趨勢但是後續真的還需要一點時間我們也不敢斷言是不是之後一定會必然增加其實從勞動部的角度我們也不希望這個數字增加因為我們在提醒器重則輕這件事情它其實是一個提醒它不是我們的政策目標"},{"start":610.284,"end":627.199,"text":"器重責輕並不是我們的政策目標或者我們政策目標是要增加大量的人來申請這不是我們政策目標可是勞動部做一個行政部門要為可能會有增加的人數尤其是如果真的增加很多的話我們必須做準備這是一個行政部門該有的責任"},{"start":627.779,"end":642.304,"text":"所以我們也不能把他想的好像很樂觀或者是都沒問題這樣可能也會出問題所以我們必須把情境想可能比較嚴峻一點可為嚴峻狀況做準備如果真的沒有人來這麼多的話那我想我們我們做的準備也比較能夠因應大家的需求"},{"start":644.105,"end":672.761,"text":"既然國內我們的缺工日漸嚴重勞動部去提升 提升什麼因為因為本期獲知部分移工安置中心等待轉換僱主的移工因為照顧技術不好在入境半年內就跟僱主就跟他解約了可是在移工在解約之後比較不容易轉換所以近日當然有很多越南籍移工遇到這樣的問題所以有沒有考慮去提升他們的照顧技術活化在安置中心等待的"},{"start":674.302,"end":693.491,"text":"時間內去做這件事情讓移工能夠順利轉換也可以解決那個缺工的問題我想其實我們接下來包括我們近期其實也針對我們的轉換的中心會把它強化它的功能那就是希望讓移工的轉換能夠更順暢不要有很多可能合約到期以後它就必須被送回去被送回國家"},{"start":693.971,"end":717.067,"text":"我們更希望他能夠被優先的承接那第二個該委員說關於我們這個學習的課程我們接下來也會來強化那尤其包括語言的部分或者是照顧的技巧的部分我想這都是我們想強化的方向再麻煩我們的衛福部的次長我想這項政策按理說不應該是勞動部的事是不是衛福部在推動移工學習上有什麼貢獻"},{"start":718.451,"end":745.824,"text":"是 非常感謝委員對於這個問題的關心我包委員我們在這個大院通過這個46條以後本部跟勞動部一直維持非常非常密切的一個聯繫因為經過左院長的一個指示我們當時馬上就成立一個所謂雙次長的一個會議那洪聖翰 洪部長還對我們非常非常有很多的一個指導那跟我們報告我們主要就幾個部分"},{"start":746.624,"end":767.786,"text":"就是大家最關心的一個就是對於重症的一個這個衝擊所以我們基本上是輕重分流而且重症可是我現在看你們開的事實上有的是線上課程可是線上課程跟實體課程還是有落差所以移工區上課如果要實體課程的話當然因為僱主在這段時間沒有人照顧需要常照服務資源所以請問一下"},{"start":768.906,"end":790.663,"text":"衛福部有什麼樣一個對應的作為是 報告委員其實因為最主要就是這個部分如果說移工他要來上課的話其實基本上還在經過這一個顧主他們的家庭的同意那我也必須要承認就是說一般來說顧主他通常還是會對於這個準價的部分可能會有一些比較他們自己本身的需要"},{"start":791.423,"end":819.703,"text":"那當然我們也會這邊還是來加強來宣導因為其實移工他來上其實對於整個照顧的品質基本上還是有幫助所以我們基本上這邊還是會跟這一個病故的家庭來多宣導最後我希望是不是可以考慮因為大概整個照顧歷程平均10年從衰落到離世這個時間點大概10年所以問衛福部說我覺得在長期照顧在整個照顧方式的選項裡面是不是應該把"},{"start":821.354,"end":836.772,"text":"移工的照顾跟住宿型机构整合进来不是只有你的衰弱到中度后边呢就是交由家庭来去做解决那你的看法如何我觉得这个确实我们我觉得这是一个不错的方向我也会来"},{"start":837.633,"end":855.124,"text":"來跟同仁來嚴寧就是剛剛委員剛剛所說的這部分確實啦因為整個這一個我們長照3.0也即將在明年上路那我想這個裡面對於怎麼樣把家庭康復工這個也視為我們未來的一個整個潛在人力我想這個所以進一步再問就是"},{"start":856.164,"end":882.797,"text":"既然這次把80歲的巴士兩表廢除所以我們有沒有考慮因為2021年的話身心障礙者需求評估ICF曾經做過一次改革那老人照顧的需求評估為何不做改革整個用你的長照需求做評估報告委員其實基本上巴士兩表跟我們現在所謂CMS基本上還是我必須要說還是有點不太一樣巴士兩表其實基本上大概就是說你要不要聘僱外籍家庭"},{"start":883.317,"end":912.658,"text":"那CMS不能用整個那個CMS來做評估嗎包委員還是兩個還是不一樣我舉個我打個比方這個怕是兩不一樣有點像就是資格考博士班的資格考可是呢你的CMS有點像就是那個博士班口試啊這兩個還是不一樣一個是資格一個是有民間團體已經開始有提出這樣子的一個想法所以你們評估看看然後再把評估報告給我因為時間關係好OK非常感謝委員的一個指教謝謝好謝謝林耀勳委員發言"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":178,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時23分）主席，麻煩請洪部長。"],["主席：有請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：林委員早。"],["林委員月琴：部長早。去年底我們就通過了就業服務法第四十六條修法，恐怕將打亂重度需求者跟失智症者的照顧規劃。新法開放80歲以上，或70歲以上罹患癌症第二期的長輩，不用經過專業評估，就可以直接聘僱外籍看護，這樣一來，增加了53萬聘僱移工資格者，預估將近有10萬人要提出申請。特別是這些申請人，多數都是比較好照顧的長輩，將會把真正有需求的重症者排擠到後邊，所以本席非常擔心未來移工將更難請，薪資飆高，有錢也找不到人。我想這不是只有我們擔心，剛剛昭姿委員所講的，政府在恐嚇，事實上民間團體也提出來，7月28日社福總盟跟很多相關的……因為總盟大概六十幾個團體，他們跟本席共同召開記者會，呼籲希望落實我們的重症優先，會中台灣失智症協會還表示，失智症患者的家庭從來都沒有選擇移工，而是沒有挑選移工的條件，他們根本沒有任何選擇權，他們是被挑選的，所以我們很擔心的是，未來重症家庭將更難請到移工，或者是因為代價昂貴而請不起移工。","第一個，移工本來就是國跟國的競爭，我們本來就很難競爭得過日、韓兩個國家，還有產業跟產業之間的競爭，今天看護工要去跟其他產業競爭本來已經很困難，更何況現在還有所謂的避重就輕，也就是重症的病患真的會很難找到人。所以想問勞動部，勞動部提出的六大配套當中，重症者最快1天內能夠完成國內推介，7天可以獲得招募的許可函，如此能夠節省13到21天便可進入國外選工的程序。可是人力仲介公司早在半年前就已經開始宣傳我們的聘僱新制，同時對雇主跟移工伸手招攬，所以重症者家庭可能招募不到人。我不知道勞動部對於幫重症節省這21天有效嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，的確不管是在修法的期間，或修法通過，我們其實最擔心的就是對重症家庭的影響。的確尤其是近期這個法生效上路之後，我們陸陸續續也接到一些陳情，這些重症家庭要聘僱移工的時候，或他已經聘僱的移工，在照顧的狀態上面會做出改變，或對於是否要留下來，移工開始會有一些不一樣的想法，這樣子陳情的案件，我們也陸陸續續聽到不少。包括網路上面，有些在社群媒體上面也是可以看到這樣的訊息，但是其實這真的都不是我們樂見的事情。","剛剛講到我們也是思考到重症家庭的權益，所以我們在這一次的配套裡面，我特別希望讓重症家庭，包括他的行政審查都能夠比較優先，像過去一般其實在求才階段可能要7天，如果是拿到重症資格的話，求才可能1天，我們都儘量縮短他們可能相對應的程序，或者是我們在承辦案件的時候，讓重症家庭可以優先，就是希望儘量再減少一些重症家庭在這裡面會遇到行政上面的一些阻礙，或者是一些行政、時間上面的成本，這是我們希望優先來幫助重症家庭的部分。"],["林委員月琴：部長，這個可能短期有效，一個月後可能就很難達到重症優先的效果，勞動部怎麼看這件事情？為什麼我們這樣講？現在是因為還沒有這麼多80歲以上的老人家家庭知道這件事情。我覺得公民團體在推估初期真的申請的人不會這麼多，可是後端越來越多人知道之後，這個效果可能半年後才會看到衝擊量進來，預估10萬，所以現在有很多人說不會啊，也一直在問勞動部說你們好像進來……像我們昭姿委員說沒有多少人申請，量很低，可是我們擔心的是半年後怎麼辦？"],["洪部長申翰：其實因為現在趨勢上面還沒有辦法看得很清楚，就像我剛剛跟委員報告、跟媒體報告的，的確現在看起來量好像沒有一下暴增很多，可是我們的確已經看到第二週比第一週申請的人數多2倍，未來第三週、第四週會是什麼樣的趨勢。這個部分可能還要更多的數據比較，才能觀察到趨勢。但我們只能盡我們所能協助重症的家庭，就像我剛剛在報告也說過，我們也自己清楚，可能還是很難完全避免對重症家庭的影響，我們只能盡我們作為一個行政部門所能，盡力優先服務重症家庭，這是我們所能做的事情，但能做的事情我們就儘量做，至少這是我們行政部門的責任。"],["林委員月琴：在過去多元免評的方案條件裡面，有一項條件是使用長照6個月後，就取得我們移工聘僱的資格，這項條件確實是有效拖延非重症者跟重症者搶人的時程。在訂這個政策的時候，除了縮短重症雇主的求才招募申請時間，另一邊為什麼不延長非重症者雇主求才招募的時間、申請的時間，把兩邊的距離再度能夠拉長一點？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，你的問題是要把多元免評的時間再縮短嗎？"],["林委員月琴：也就是說，我覺得要把兩邊的時間距離拉長，否則你現在80歲大概7天的時間，雖然重症的時間是可以短一點就申請得到，我們是希望如果這兩邊時間可以拉長，是不是就可以讓重症的還是有優先順位？"],["洪部長申翰：我們現在事實上輕症還是維持原本的，就是我們其實也沒有特別要去卡輕症的，因為如果我們要特別把他的程序拉長的話，可能也會造成輕症的申請者可能也會有抱怨。所以，我們基本上，現在就是維持輕症的申請者原本的機制，但我們做的事情是讓重症優先，我們的確現在不是去選擇把輕症的程序給拉長，因為這個……"],["林委員月琴：部長，這就是很難的部分，2021年我們就曾經發生生產業類的移工搶人大戰，疫情限制了移工入境，導致我們缺工頻傳，部分看護工看準廠工較優渥的勞動條件，以騷擾雇主或是怠工方式來逼迫雇主，藉由三方合意方式轉為廠工，讓須照護家庭的雇主急得跳腳。對此，勞動部那時候去修正了一個辦法，明定移工跨業轉換的話要以同類別為優先，也就是說，家庭看護工如果14日內沒有雇主承接的話，才可以轉換到其他業別。所以想問勞動部，我們聘僱新制上路的一個問題，早在今年初就已經傳遍了整個移工社群，媒體甚至還報導，今年7月移工1955專線被打到爆，重症家庭聘僱移工醞釀跳槽。所以請問，今年7月到現在，1955諮詢專線的數量到底有沒有增加？還有社福類的移工轉換，雇主的諮詢電話有多少的比例？"],["洪部長申翰：我想一直以來，其實我們1955專線來詢問移工相關的事項有比較多，的確這幾個月來，詢問80歲以上免巴氏量表申請的程序等等相關的問題也增加不少，不過，詳細的數字，我可能要跟我們部裡面的業務單位去確認一下，才知道到底多了多少。"],["林委員月琴：好，那是不是會後再給我數據？部長，我再續問，新制上路至今，我們的社福類移工申請轉換雇主許可的申請案件量，跟前幾個月比是不是有增加？就像你剛剛講的嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：對，就是我剛才說大概1,450左右這個數字，等於是在修法後，因為修法而新取得資格有來申請的人，包括80歲以上免巴氏量表的……就80歲以上的長者及70歲到79歲癌症二期的病患，這兩個加起來就是這個數字。我們看到這個數字確實有一些增加的趨勢，但是後續真的還需要一點時間，我們也不敢斷言是不是之後一定必然會增加。其實從勞動部的角度，我們也不希望這個數字增加，因為我們在提醒「棄重擇輕」這件事情，其實是一個提醒，並不是我們的政策目標。"],["林委員月琴：是。"],["洪部長申翰：「棄重擇輕」並不是我們的政策目標，或者要增加大量的人來申請，這不是我們的政策目標，可是勞動部作為行政部門，要為可能會有增加的人數準備，尤其是如果真的增加很多的話，我們必須準備，這是一個行政部門該有的責任，我們也不能把它想得好像很樂觀或者是「啊！都沒問題。」這樣可能也會出問題，所以我們必須把情境設想可能比較嚴峻一點，為嚴峻的狀況準備，如果真的沒有來這麼多人的話，我想我們做的準備也比較能夠因應大家的需求。"],["林委員月琴：部長，國內我們的缺工日漸嚴重，勞動部何不去提升？提升什麼呢？因為本席獲知部分移工安置中心等待轉換雇主的移工，因為照顧技術不好，在入境半年內就被雇主解約了，移工在解約之後，比較不容易轉換，近日有很多越南籍移工遇到這樣的問題。有沒有考慮提升他們的照顧技術，活化在安置中心等待的時間去做這件事情，讓移工能夠順利轉換，也可以解決缺工的問題？"],["洪部長申翰：接下來我們近期也會針對我們的轉換中心強化它的功能，就是希望讓移工的轉換能夠更順暢，不要有很多可能合約到期以後，他就必須被送回去、被送回國家，我們更希望他能夠被優先承接。第二個，剛才委員提到關於我們學習的課程，接下來也會強化，尤其包括語言的部分，或者是照顧技巧的部分，這都是我們想強化的方向。"],["林委員月琴：好。再麻煩我們衛福部的次長，我想這項政策按理說不應該是勞動部的事，請教衛福部在推動移工學習上有什麼貢獻？"],["呂次長建德：是，非常感謝委員對於這個問題的關心。在大院通過第四十六條以後，本部跟勞動部一直維持非常、非常密切的聯繫，經過卓院長的指示，我們當時馬上就成立一個所謂雙次長的會議，洪申翰部長對我們有非常、非常多的指導。我們主要就幾個部分，大家最關心的一個就是對於重症的衝擊，所以我們基本上是輕重分流而且重症……"],["林委員月琴：次長，我現在看你們開的課程，事實上有些是線上課程，可是線上課程跟實體課程還是有落差，所以移工去上課，如果是實體課程的話，當然意味著雇主在這段時間沒有人照顧，需要長照服務支援。所以請問一下，衛福部有什麼樣的對應作為？"],["呂次長建德：是。報告委員，最主要如果移工要來上課的話，其實基本上還要經過聘僱主他們家庭的同意。我也必須要承認，一般來說，雇主通常對於准假的部分，可能還是比較會有他們自己本身需要的考量。當然，我們還是會加強宣導，因為移工來上課，其實對於整個照顧的品質，基本上還是有幫助，所以我們還是會跟聘僱的家庭多宣導。"],["林委員月琴：最後，我希望是不是可以考慮……因為大概整個照顧歷程平均10年，從衰弱到離世的時間點大概10年，所以請教衛福部，我覺得在整個長期照顧方式的選項裡，是不是應該把移工的照顧跟住宿型機構整合起來？不是只有衰弱到中度後面就交由家庭解決，你的看法如何？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我覺得這個確實是一個不錯的方向，我也會跟同仁研擬委員剛剛所說的這部分。確實啦！因為我們長照3.0也即將在明年上路，我想對於怎麼樣把家庭看護工也視為我們未來的潛在人力，我想這個……"],["林委員月琴：再進一步請教，既然這次把80歲以上聘僱外看的巴氏量表廢除，你們有沒有考慮……因為在2021年身心障礙鑑定與需求評估（ICF）曾經做過一次改革，老人照顧的需求評估為何不改革？整個用你們的長照需求做評估機制。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，基本上巴氏量表跟我們現在所謂CMS，我必須要說還是有點不太一樣啦！巴氏量表其實大概就是「你要不要聘僱外籍家庭看護工？」CMS……"],["林委員月琴：不能用整個CMS評估嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，這兩個還是不一樣，我打個比方，這個巴氏量表有點像是資格考，博士班的資格考，可是CMS有點像是博士班口試啊！"],["林委員月琴：民間團體已經有這樣的……"],["呂次長建德：這兩個還是不一樣，一個是資格，一個是……"],["林委員月琴：對，民間團體已經開始有提出這樣的想法。"],["呂次長建德：是，我了解啦！"],["林委員月琴：所以你們評估看看，再把評估報告給我。"],["呂次長建德：好的。"],["林委員月琴：因為時間關係，謝謝部長及次長。"],["呂次長建德：好，非常感謝委員的指教，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員的發言，也謝謝相關部長的答詢。","下一位請陳菁徽委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":220,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-25","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","林淑芬","王正旭","陳瑩","盧縣一","楊曜","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","何欣純"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2025-08-20"],"gazette_id":"1147502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長、衛生福利部就「就業服務法第46條，80歲以上長者聘請外籍看護免巴氏量\n表上路，對重症家庭的衝擊與配套措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審查 (一）委員王\n育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(二）委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人\n自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九\n條及第十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正\n草案」案、(五)委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案【逐條\n討論】","agenda_id":"1147502_00002"}}}