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{\"word\": \"支\", \"start\": 866.759, \"end\": 866.919, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"撐\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 866.919, \"end\": 867.099, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"支\", \"start\": 867.099, \"end\": 867.3, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 867.3, \"end\": 867.46, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 867.46, \"end\": 867.48, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,364 --> 00:00:15,258\n謝謝主席我們有請洪部長好請洪部長王委員好\n\n2\n00:00:16,345 --> 00:00:40,592\n部長好部長你在7月25號11點44分上班時間發文那你把巴士量表的修法呢舉例說他是一個快速出委員會好像過水式的這樣的一個修法我就要請教你請問巴士量表當時在委員會的審查審查的時間多久為什麼在你認定他是一個過水式的修法\n\n3\n00:00:41,232 --> 00:00:58,687\n從什麼時候開始修法那個我想跟委員說明我其實做這個巴塞陽堡的舉例主要是在講的是其實當初其實有機會其實韓院長朝野協商我就問你他是不是一個快速出委員會的修法如果不是請你道歉當時我是召委\n\n4\n00:00:59,528 --> 00:01:24,762\n我的牌法並沒有快速的出委員會在委員會討論了兩次還辦了黨團的協商之後委員會也還辦了公聽會你所謂快速的出委員會是什麼意思如果不是的事情一個部長可以公然在你的臉書上面造謠說謊嗎如果這不是你要表達的目的你為什麼把八四亮表的修法通通寫進去了我反對你這樣子誤導\n\n5\n00:01:27,043 --> 00:01:43,009\n背離事實巴士亮表的修法在座的委員都在當時有快速出委員會嗎是用表決出委員會嗎都沒有嘛還有經過朝野協商所以這件事情錯了就是錯了我覺得承認錯誤就好這完全是背離事實\n\n6\n00:01:44,269 --> 00:02:01,225\n有快速出委員會嗎你先告訴我跟我說明我當初其實是做了幾個法律案的舉例在我的文字裡面那你就不應該把巴斯亮表拿出來嗎我把巴斯亮表我特別為什麼講巴斯亮表的原因是因為他跳過了韓院長要召集的朝野協商你沒有當過立法委員嗎\n\n7\n00:02:02,286 --> 00:02:26,756\n現在所有的法案沒有一定要經過韓院長主持的朝野協商委員會自己的協商也算其實當初韓院長是有排的我們是準備了法案原本要到朝野協商上面跟委員好好的來針對這個案子可能可以的做法來討論你覺得都是事後的狡辯之詞這不是事後這是當時發生的事情你當時你的臉書文我希望你自己再把它download下來好好看一遍\n\n8\n00:02:28,538 --> 00:02:47,568\n你把巴士亮表的修法說為是一個過水式的修法這個本行是絕對的抗議跟反對背離事實背離委員會好好的審查這一個法條的事實你應該要道歉你根本就是說謊背離事實而且當時你不是勞動部部長\n\n9\n00:02:49,141 --> 00:03:15,850\n我是勞動部部長韓院長的協商我是勞動部部長我們委員會審查的時候你不是勞動部部長可是我在講的是韓院長的協商的時候那你為什麼要把那一段寫出來呢完全背離事實嘛你當時又不是部長是何佩珊在當部長你也沒有參與審查的過程你還好意思把整個的結果寫出來掛在臉書上面結果現在就是被打臉完全背離事實第二個我要講當時這一個巴士量表修法就是要簡正辨明\n\n10\n00:03:16,850 --> 00:03:42,091\n事實上在野黨的出發點非常簡單就是簡正變民因為有很多民眾有這樣的心聲就是如此而已但是勞動部你們放大了那個衝擊你說有10萬人一下子會湧進10萬人影響非常巨大那我就問你到目前為止你剛剛報告說到目前為止8月17號登記申請的1400人對不對\n\n11\n00:03:46,075 --> 00:03:57,893\n那你當時的巨大的衝擊報告在你的臉書所呈現的你試圖要告訴全國民眾說這是一個錯誤的修法這是一個錯誤的政策你當時的立場就是這樣嗎現在事後來看\n\n12\n00:04:00,596 --> 00:04:19,122\n現在已經上路了而且你們跟衛福部也有去討論重症優先的原則請問他真的衝擊有那麼大嗎有爆量嗎有所有的人都器重就輕嗎我覺得作為一個政務官秉於專業跟事實這是你最好的解方但是你如果為了反對而反對\n\n13\n00:04:20,302 --> 00:04:35,536\n坦白講最後就是自打臉而已媒體下的標就是跌破眼鏡嘛你們當時啊宣稱的十萬結果第一個月應該是如果你當時宣稱是這樣應該第一個月大家都急著要來搶可能至少是幾萬吧結果沒有是一千多\n\n14\n00:04:37,356 --> 00:05:03,327\n跟委員說明我們現在在數據上面的確看到第二個星期是第一個星期的兩倍是多少的兩倍是第一個星期的兩倍對數字是多少所以它的成長的趨勢是看得到的我知道嘛那本數是多少啦不要再用那種兩倍的數字刻意好像還不想承認錯誤還要想要去放大說是兩倍的成長那個都沒有意義事實就是事實\n\n15\n00:05:04,227 --> 00:05:31,906\n我說過了80歲以上開放的這一個免巴士量表他的初心只有一個是要簡正便民他不在於是侯友宇的政策不在於是賴清德的政策而是民意之所向因為現在的程序就是很繁複僅此而已你當然可以有你的立場反對但不用去誇大數字刻意要來貶抑這個政策他本身利益良善的這個部分我就提醒到此為止接下來一個很重要的議題這個是媒體很關心的\n\n16\n00:05:36,369 --> 00:05:51,680\n當時這個大家在討論救安基金濫用的問題事實上這個之前有揭露過其中你們做那個影片的部分真的這個金額高得嚇人一支影片可以高達上千萬但是點讚數不到500\n\n17\n00:05:52,981 --> 00:06:19,928\n那這件事情呢現在再一次被掀出來討論呢大家就看到說審計部他認為難以嚥和履約的結果連審計部都不敢背書那部長你說要檢討請問你的檢討你到目前為止懲處了哪些人哪些人當時是讓他這樣子可以輕易的過關的另外你的檢討要不要移送檢調之前討論霸凌案你是來處理這個霸凌案的\n\n18\n00:06:22,449 --> 00:06:44,274\n相關的人等還有當時這個涉案的都已經移送檢調他現在也被起訴那這一個案子涉及到是2800萬這當中如果有審計部都難以背書的覺得你這樣子的一個核銷是有問題的那請問你要不要移送檢調你說要檢討你要不要移送檢調比照之前的霸凌案的處理\n\n19\n00:06:44,834 --> 00:07:07,496\n我跟委員說明第一個其實的確針對救安基金致用的問題檢調是已經有立案在調查有包括這個部分嗎就是2800萬就是這整個部分你們提供的有包括2800萬也不只是這部分都有也不只是就是整個救安基金致用的問題檢調現在在已經有立案調查所以他全面的包含這部分都會一併調查\n\n20\n00:07:08,177 --> 00:07:35,709\n那我們勞動部其實也是全力在配合這些調查這是第一個第二個就像你的投影片上面寫到其實這幾個東西我們都在改革比方說下面那個常態性的行政支出因回歸公務預算我們已經跟行政院爭取過去可能我們認為其實他應該是支用在公用公務預算來支用的部分不應該用救援基金來支用的部分我們已經跟行政院來爭取所以這個部分在115年的預算裡面我們已經爭取到了一些\n\n21\n00:07:36,869 --> 00:07:49,612\n那這部分我們就在落實第二個是沒宣的預算或者是媒體宣導的部分我們在我們也檢討了開口合約的適用的範圍所以今年我說去年底\n\n22\n00:07:50,982 --> 00:08:06,393\n沒宣在開口合約上面的標案我就把它給停下來檢討了都沒有了零件了所以現在我們部裡面是沒有政策沒宣的開口企業的不會再拍這種影片然後用開口合約我們未來會把影片的部分\n\n23\n00:08:07,153 --> 00:08:32,572\n我們當然後續未來還會使用開口契約因為各個部會跟地方政府其實大家很多還是使用開口契約可是我們認為在開口契約使用裡面我們覺得未來我們會把影片或者是一些活動給拿出開口契約的適用的範圍這個是我們對於開口契約的檢討所以委員你現在提的其實我們對於包括救安基金的使用包括開口契約的檢討這都是正在落實中的事情\n\n24\n00:08:32,912 --> 00:08:48,171\n好我要求務必落實另外一個勞發署的水電費被報出來說還有九成是由救安基金支出這個是事實嗎這是媒體報的這個是我們因為你剛剛已經說你要回歸公務預算了對明年的公務預算裡面\n\n25\n00:08:51,416 --> 00:09:10,001\n這個因為現在勞發署的嘴電是1比9那我們有跟行政院爭取不應該再是這個比例但因為我們發案署的業務裡面其實也有蠻大部分是在執行基金的業務所以你明年還是九成不是不是不是九成是降低了幾成應該是數是4比6了\n\n26\n00:09:10,714 --> 00:09:26,860\n就是降低到六成還是有救安基金支出對因為因為這是跟主計討論我們來盤點這個部分我真的覺得救安基金的濫用有一部分是勞動部你們自己所屬的屬在濫用我覺得這邊很好用金庫就是很多錢該編的不編編到這邊來\n\n27\n00:09:30,081 --> 00:09:56,923\n我要提醒這個部長的是現在面對關稅的衝擊事實上你的救安基金就應該要用在刀口上這一些現在已經開始無薪假的勞工真的是非常的辛苦到目前為止已經有4000人這個是有通報的喔我都擔心有一些不見得有通報上來已通報的就已經有4000人喔那他們有的很慘他可能他\n\n28\n00:09:57,964 --> 00:10:13,244\n減班休息無薪假之後有可能只領到基本工資28590那請問他少掉的這些薪資你們現在的雇用安定措施薪資補貼也頂多補貼一半薪資差的一半\n\n29\n00:10:14,373 --> 00:10:29,604\n現在提高到七成很好但是你可以想像一個人原來的收入如果他的月薪是五萬塊他要養家然後他因為這樣的減班休息少了請問他的房貸他的車貸還有孩子的學貸怎麼辦\n\n30\n00:10:30,585 --> 00:10:55,785\n這個都是衝擊所以我要問你的是你現在除了薪資的補貼你現在差額補貼到七成之外你有沒有給他一些新的貸款的措施像這個九月要開學了很多他家裡有大學生的就是要付學貸了像這一些被衝擊到勞工他的家庭他的家庭支出他如果短時間沒有辦法因應我就問你你的救安基金相關編併的預算還有行政院150億\n\n31\n00:10:57,006 --> 00:11:18,488\n你有沒有給予勞工額外彈性的他可以來無息貸款無息貸款的部分其實確實現在沒有在這裡面那我們現在比較著重的事情我們覺得比較重要的事情是如果你減班休息我希望盡量還是把你留在職場上因為如果你調出職場你如果失業的話那後面會更麻煩\n\n32\n00:11:19,389 --> 00:11:39,707\n所以我們基本上我們的資源現在先比較集中在先撐住假如你有遇到減班休息的勞工他的經濟安全的部分所以剛剛委員在講到這也是為什麼我們在前兩個禮拜裡面我們其實把原本公安訂措施的五成的補貼薪資差的五成補貼拉高到七成甚至我們還有充電再出發其實可以併領\n\n33\n00:11:40,327 --> 00:12:05,325\n因為以前不能併零以前你只能二選一現在可以併零甚至可以到你原本的薪資水準但是你那個沖天債出發你那個金額都是小的我要告訴你的是有些家庭他原本就有負債或者是他有一些貸款要支付他可能會因為這樣子他需要一筆資金來運用你講的那個是對他單一月薪的部分的補貼他也不是百分之百所以我現在希望你推薦我們可以補到他\n\n34\n00:12:06,266 --> 00:12:31,462\n我現在希望你回去思考的這一波的關稅衝擊因為我們現在比日韓高出10%然後連知名的上櫃的公司如果都撐不住我擔心更多中小型的後面也撐不住所以你們除了原來的薪資補貼現在七成之外我希望你們去研議就是有沒有可能再額外給勞工這一個無息的貸款讓他至少撐過這一波\n\n35\n00:12:32,122 --> 00:12:56,977\n如果他有需求不要讓他們去借地下錢莊不要讓他們去借高利貸不要因為這次的關稅衝擊造成他財務上面更血上加霜這個部分可不可以回去再研議我們可以來針對整體對勞工的支持綜合性的再來思考我希望你們去思考因為你們的這個115年就業安定基金你們現在的編列我希望你們再調整你們其實是要簡列\n\n36\n00:12:58,453 --> 00:13:14,407\n促進國民就業的部分怎麼還會減劣呢現在關稅衝擊的問題這麼大你們怎麼反而是下降我現在知道的訊息是你們是下降的是減少反而是減少的我希望你回去好好檢討你們救安基金115年度你要編\n\n37\n00:13:15,647 --> 00:13:37,455\n這個跟文說明當然我們回去可以再看一下你現在列出來這幾項增加跟減少可以再去確認但的確有一個部分就像剛才說的我們其實也把一些過去大家認為是在救安基金的支出我們認為應該要用公務預算的我們也把它跟行政院爭取希望可以用公務預算所以挪出去之後你的錢更多啊那你就更應該放在這個促進國民救援還是說你這個9.381都是原來不應該編在這裡的\n\n38\n00:13:40,196 --> 00:13:59,277\n不是不是這個意思不是這個意思我們可以確認細節你就徹底檢討好不好我覺得這一波的關稅衝擊真的不要小看現在對傳產的衝擊其實是大的因為我們是20%就是加N了所以這個部分我希望勞動部你責無旁貸對於關稅的衝擊對勞工部支持我們是嚴正以待\n\n39\n00:14:01,599 --> 00:14:27,480\n政治的部分你碰少一點你把你更多的心力放在勞工朋友現在最在乎的事情上面我覺得這個就是一個勞動部長你應該做到我們對於關稅的衝擊我們勞動部是嚴正以待全力戒備然後我們也不會做樂觀的樂觀的設想現在沒有樂觀的本錢了20%完全沒有樂觀的本錢我們會要把相對嚴峻的狀況拿來做為我們準備的設想好我們希望給勞工最大的支撐跟支持謝謝好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7364\t15258\t謝謝主席 我們有請洪部長好 請洪部長王委員好\n16345\t40592\t部長好部長你在7月25號11點44分上班時間發文那你把巴士量表的修法呢舉例說他是一個快速出委員會好像過水式的這樣的一個修法我就要請教你請問巴士量表當時在委員會的審查審查的時間多久為什麼在你認定他是一個過水式的修法\n41232\t58687\t從什麼時候開始修法那個我想跟委員說明我其實做這個巴塞陽堡的舉例主要是在講的是其實當初其實有機會其實韓院長朝野協商我就問你他是不是一個快速出委員會的修法如果不是請你道歉當時我是召委\n59528\t84762\t我的牌法並沒有快速的出委員會在委員會討論了兩次還辦了黨團的協商之後委員會也還辦了公聽會你所謂快速的出委員會是什麼意思如果不是的事情一個部長可以公然在你的臉書上面造謠說謊嗎如果這不是你要表達的目的你為什麼把八四亮表的修法通通寫進去了我反對你這樣子誤導\n87043\t103009\t背離事實巴士亮表的修法 在座的委員都在當時有快速出委員會嗎是用表決出委員會嗎 都沒有嘛還有經過朝野協商所以這件事情錯了就是錯了我覺得承認錯誤就好這完全是背離事實\n104269\t121225\t有快速出委員會嗎 你先告訴我跟我說明我當初其實是做了幾個法律案的舉例在我的文字裡面那你就不應該把巴斯亮表拿出來嗎我把巴斯亮表我特別為什麼講巴斯亮表的原因是因為他跳過了韓院長要召集的朝野協商你沒有當過立法委員嗎\n122286\t146756\t現在所有的法案沒有一定要經過韓院長主持的朝野協商委員會自己的協商也算其實當初韓院長是有排的我們是準備了法案原本要到朝野協商上面跟委員好好的來針對這個案子可能可以的做法來討論你覺得都是事後的狡辯之詞這不是事後 這是當時發生的事情你當時你的臉書文我希望你自己再把它download下來好好看一遍\n148538\t167568\t你把巴士亮表的修法說為是一個過水式的修法這個本行是絕對的抗議跟反對背離事實背離委員會好好的審查這一個法條的事實你應該要道歉你根本就是說謊背離事實而且當時你不是勞動部部長\n169141\t195850\t我是勞動部部長 韓院長的協商我是勞動部部長我們委員會審查的時候你不是勞動部部長可是我在講的是韓院長的協商的時候那你為什麼要把那一段寫出來呢 完全背離事實嘛你當時又不是部長 是何佩珊在當部長你也沒有參與審查的過程 你還好意思把整個的結果寫出來掛在臉書上面結果現在就是被打臉 完全背離事實第二個我要講 當時這一個巴士量表修法就是要簡正辨明\n196850\t222091\t事實上在野黨的出發點非常簡單就是簡正變民因為有很多民眾有這樣的心聲就是如此而已但是勞動部你們放大了那個衝擊你說有10萬人一下子會湧進10萬人影響非常巨大那我就問你到目前為止你剛剛報告說到目前為止8月17號登記申請的1400人對不對\n226075\t237893\t那你當時的巨大的衝擊報告在你的臉書所呈現的你試圖要告訴全國民眾說這是一個錯誤的修法這是一個錯誤的政策你當時的立場就是這樣嗎現在事後來看\n240596\t259122\t現在已經上路了而且你們跟衛福部也有去討論重症優先的原則請問他真的衝擊有那麼大嗎有爆量嗎有所有的人都器重就輕嗎我覺得作為一個政務官秉於專業跟事實這是你最好的解方但是你如果為了反對而反對\n260302\t275536\t坦白講最後就是自打臉而已媒體下的標就是跌破眼鏡嘛你們當時啊宣稱的十萬結果第一個月應該是如果你當時宣稱是這樣應該第一個月大家都急著要來搶可能至少是幾萬吧結果沒有是一千多\n277356\t303327\t跟委員說明我們現在在數據上面的確看到第二個星期是第一個星期的兩倍是多少的兩倍是第一個星期的兩倍對 數字是多少所以它的成長的趨勢是看得到的我知道嘛 那本數是多少啦不要再用那種兩倍的數字刻意好像還不想承認錯誤還要想要去放大說是兩倍的成長那個都沒有意義事實就是事實\n304227\t331906\t我說過了80歲以上開放的這一個免巴士量表他的初心只有一個是要簡正便民他不在於是侯友宇的政策不在於是賴清德的政策而是民意之所向因為現在的程序就是很繁複僅此而已你當然可以有你的立場反對但不用去誇大數字刻意要來貶抑這個政策他本身利益良善的這個部分我就提醒到此為止接下來一個很重要的議題這個是媒體很關心的\n336369\t351680\t當時這個大家在討論救安基金濫用的問題事實上這個之前有揭露過其中你們做那個影片的部分真的這個金額高得嚇人一支影片可以高達上千萬但是點讚數不到500\n352981\t379928\t那這件事情呢現在再一次被掀出來討論呢大家就看到說審計部他認為難以嚥和履約的結果連審計部都不敢背書那部長你說要檢討請問你的檢討你到目前為止懲處了哪些人哪些人當時是讓他這樣子可以輕易的過關的另外你的檢討要不要移送檢調之前討論霸凌案你是來處理這個霸凌案的\n382449\t404274\t相關的人等還有當時這個涉案的都已經移送檢調他現在也被起訴那這一個案子涉及到是2800萬這當中如果有審計部都難以背書的覺得你這樣子的一個核銷是有問題的那請問你要不要移送檢調你說要檢討你要不要移送檢調比照之前的霸凌案的處理\n404834\t427496\t我跟委員說明第一個其實的確針對救安基金致用的問題檢調是已經有立案在調查有包括這個部分嗎就是2800萬就是這整個部分你們提供的有包括2800萬也不只是這部分都有也不只是就是整個救安基金致用的問題檢調現在在已經有立案調查所以他全面的包含這部分都會一併調查\n428177\t455709\t那我們勞動部其實也是全力在配合這些調查這是第一個第二個就像你的投影片上面寫到其實這幾個東西我們都在改革比方說下面那個常態性的行政支出因回歸公務預算我們已經跟行政院爭取過去可能我們認為其實他應該是支用在公用公務預算來支用的部分不應該用救援基金來支用的部分我們已經跟行政院來爭取所以這個部分在115年的預算裡面我們已經爭取到了一些\n456869\t469612\t那這部分我們就在落實第二個是沒宣的預算或者是媒體宣導的部分我們在我們也檢討了開口合約的適用的範圍所以今年我說去年底\n470982\t486393\t沒宣在開口合約上面的標案我就把它給停下來檢討了都沒有了 零件了所以現在我們部裡面是沒有政策沒宣的開口企業的不會再拍這種影片然後用開口合約我們未來會把影片的部分\n487153\t512572\t我們當然後續未來還會使用開口契約因為各個部會跟地方政府其實大家很多還是使用開口契約可是我們認為在開口契約使用裡面我們覺得未來我們會把影片或者是一些活動給拿出開口契約的適用的範圍這個是我們對於開口契約的檢討所以委員你現在提的其實我們對於包括救安基金的使用包括開口契約的檢討這都是正在落實中的事情\n512912\t528171\t好 我要求務必落實另外一個勞發署的水電費被報出來說還有九成是由救安基金支出這個是事實嗎這是媒體報的這個是我們因為你剛剛已經說你要回歸公務預算了對 明年的公務預算裡面\n531416\t550001\t這個因為現在勞發署的嘴電是1比9那我們有跟行政院爭取不應該再是這個比例但因為我們發案署的業務裡面其實也有蠻大部分是在執行基金的業務所以你明年還是九成不是不是不是九成是降低了幾成應該是數是4比6了\n550714\t566860\t就是降低到六成還是有救安基金支出對因為因為這是跟主計討論我們來盤點這個部分我真的覺得救安基金的濫用有一部分是勞動部你們自己所屬的屬在濫用我覺得這邊很好用金庫就是很多錢該編的不編編到這邊來\n570081\t596923\t我要提醒這個部長的是現在面對關稅的衝擊事實上你的救安基金就應該要用在刀口上這一些現在已經開始無薪假的勞工真的是非常的辛苦到目前為止已經有4000人這個是有通報的喔我都擔心有一些不見得有通報上來已通報的就已經有4000人喔那他們有的很慘他可能他\n597964\t613244\t減班休息無薪假之後有可能只領到基本工資28590那請問他少掉的這些薪資你們現在的雇用安定措施薪資補貼也頂多補貼一半薪資差的一半\n614373\t629604\t現在提高到七成 很好但是你可以想像一個人原來的收入如果他的月薪是五萬塊他要養家然後他因為這樣的減班休息少了請問他的房貸他的車貸還有孩子的學貸怎麼辦\n630585\t655785\t這個都是衝擊所以我要問你的是你現在除了薪資的補貼你現在差額補貼到七成之外你有沒有給他一些新的貸款的措施像這個九月要開學了很多他家裡有大學生的就是要付學貸了像這一些被衝擊到勞工他的家庭他的家庭支出他如果短時間沒有辦法因應我就問你你的救安基金相關編併的預算還有行政院150億\n657006\t678488\t你有沒有給予勞工額外彈性的他可以來無息貸款無息貸款的部分其實確實現在沒有在這裡面那我們現在比較著重的事情我們覺得比較重要的事情是如果你減班休息我希望盡量還是把你留在職場上因為如果你調出職場你如果失業的話那後面會更麻煩\n679389\t699707\t所以我們基本上我們的資源現在先比較集中在先撐住假如你有遇到減班休息的勞工他的經濟安全的部分所以剛剛委員在講到這也是為什麼我們在前兩個禮拜裡面我們其實把原本公安訂措施的五成的補貼薪資差的五成補貼拉高到七成甚至我們還有充電再出發其實可以併領\n700327\t725325\t因為以前不能併零 以前你只能二選一現在可以併零 甚至可以到你原本的薪資水準但是你那個沖天債出發 你那個金額都是小的我要告訴你的是 有些家庭他原本就有負債或者是他有一些貸款要支付他可能會因為這樣子 他需要一筆資金來運用你講的那個是對他單一月薪的部分的補貼他也不是百分之百所以我現在希望你推薦 我們可以補到他\n726266\t751462\t我現在希望你回去思考的這一波的關稅衝擊因為我們現在比日韓高出10%然後連知名的上櫃的公司如果都撐不住我擔心更多中小型的後面也撐不住所以你們除了原來的薪資補貼現在七成之外我希望你們去研議就是有沒有可能再額外給勞工這一個無息的貸款讓他至少撐過這一波\n752122\t776977\t如果他有需求不要讓他們去借地下錢莊不要讓他們去借高利貸不要因為這次的關稅衝擊造成他財務上面更血上加霜這個部分可不可以回去再研議我們可以來針對整體對勞工的支持綜合性的再來思考我希望你們去思考因為你們的這個115年就業安定基金你們現在的編列我希望你們再調整你們其實是要簡列\n778453\t794407\t促進國民就業的部分怎麼還會減劣呢現在關稅衝擊的問題這麼大你們怎麼反而是下降我現在知道的訊息是你們是下降的是減少反而是減少的我希望你回去好好檢討你們救安基金115年度你要編\n795647\t817455\t這個跟文說明當然我們回去可以再看一下你現在列出來這幾項增加跟減少可以再去確認但的確有一個部分就像剛才說的我們其實也把一些過去大家認為是在救安基金的支出我們認為應該要用公務預算的我們也把它跟行政院爭取希望可以用公務預算所以挪出去之後你的錢更多啊那你就更應該放在這個促進國民救援還是說你這個9.381都是原來不應該編在這裡的\n820196\t839277\t不是不是這個意思不是這個意思我們可以確認細節你就徹底檢討好不好我覺得這一波的關稅衝擊真的不要小看現在對傳產的衝擊其實是大的因為我們是20%就是加N了所以這個部分我希望勞動部你責無旁貸對於關稅的衝擊對勞工部支持我們是嚴正以待\n841599\t867480\t政治的部分你碰少一點你把你更多的心力放在勞工朋友現在最在乎的事情上面我覺得這個就是一個勞動部長你應該做到我們對於關稅的衝擊我們勞動部是嚴正以待全力戒備然後我們也不會做樂觀的樂觀的設想現在沒有樂觀的本錢了20%完全沒有樂觀的本錢我們會要把相對嚴峻的狀況拿來做為我們準備的設想好我們希望給勞工最大的支撐跟支持謝謝好 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 我們有請洪部長好 請洪部長王委員好\n部長好部長你在7月25號11點44分上班時間發文那你把巴士量表的修法呢舉例說他是一個快速出委員會好像過水式的這樣的一個修法我就要請教你請問巴士量表當時在委員會的審查審查的時間多久為什麼在你認定他是一個過水式的修法\n從什麼時候開始修法那個我想跟委員說明我其實做這個巴塞陽堡的舉例主要是在講的是其實當初其實有機會其實韓院長朝野協商我就問你他是不是一個快速出委員會的修法如果不是請你道歉當時我是召委\n我的牌法並沒有快速的出委員會在委員會討論了兩次還辦了黨團的協商之後委員會也還辦了公聽會你所謂快速的出委員會是什麼意思如果不是的事情一個部長可以公然在你的臉書上面造謠說謊嗎如果這不是你要表達的目的你為什麼把八四亮表的修法通通寫進去了我反對你這樣子誤導\n背離事實巴士亮表的修法 在座的委員都在當時有快速出委員會嗎是用表決出委員會嗎 都沒有嘛還有經過朝野協商所以這件事情錯了就是錯了我覺得承認錯誤就好這完全是背離事實\n有快速出委員會嗎 你先告訴我跟我說明我當初其實是做了幾個法律案的舉例在我的文字裡面那你就不應該把巴斯亮表拿出來嗎我把巴斯亮表我特別為什麼講巴斯亮表的原因是因為他跳過了韓院長要召集的朝野協商你沒有當過立法委員嗎\n現在所有的法案沒有一定要經過韓院長主持的朝野協商委員會自己的協商也算其實當初韓院長是有排的我們是準備了法案原本要到朝野協商上面跟委員好好的來針對這個案子可能可以的做法來討論你覺得都是事後的狡辯之詞這不是事後 這是當時發生的事情你當時你的臉書文我希望你自己再把它download下來好好看一遍\n你把巴士亮表的修法說為是一個過水式的修法這個本行是絕對的抗議跟反對背離事實背離委員會好好的審查這一個法條的事實你應該要道歉你根本就是說謊背離事實而且當時你不是勞動部部長\n我是勞動部部長 韓院長的協商我是勞動部部長我們委員會審查的時候你不是勞動部部長可是我在講的是韓院長的協商的時候那你為什麼要把那一段寫出來呢 完全背離事實嘛你當時又不是部長 是何佩珊在當部長你也沒有參與審查的過程 你還好意思把整個的結果寫出來掛在臉書上面結果現在就是被打臉 完全背離事實第二個我要講 當時這一個巴士量表修法就是要簡正辨明\n事實上在野黨的出發點非常簡單就是簡正變民因為有很多民眾有這樣的心聲就是如此而已但是勞動部你們放大了那個衝擊你說有10萬人一下子會湧進10萬人影響非常巨大那我就問你到目前為止你剛剛報告說到目前為止8月17號登記申請的1400人對不對\n那你當時的巨大的衝擊報告在你的臉書所呈現的你試圖要告訴全國民眾說這是一個錯誤的修法這是一個錯誤的政策你當時的立場就是這樣嗎現在事後來看\n現在已經上路了而且你們跟衛福部也有去討論重症優先的原則請問他真的衝擊有那麼大嗎有爆量嗎有所有的人都器重就輕嗎我覺得作為一個政務官秉於專業跟事實這是你最好的解方但是你如果為了反對而反對\n坦白講最後就是自打臉而已媒體下的標就是跌破眼鏡嘛你們當時啊宣稱的十萬結果第一個月應該是如果你當時宣稱是這樣應該第一個月大家都急著要來搶可能至少是幾萬吧結果沒有是一千多\n跟委員說明我們現在在數據上面的確看到第二個星期是第一個星期的兩倍是多少的兩倍是第一個星期的兩倍對 數字是多少所以它的成長的趨勢是看得到的我知道嘛 那本數是多少啦不要再用那種兩倍的數字刻意好像還不想承認錯誤還要想要去放大說是兩倍的成長那個都沒有意義事實就是事實\n我說過了80歲以上開放的這一個免巴士量表他的初心只有一個是要簡正便民他不在於是侯友宇的政策不在於是賴清德的政策而是民意之所向因為現在的程序就是很繁複僅此而已你當然可以有你的立場反對但不用去誇大數字刻意要來貶抑這個政策他本身利益良善的這個部分我就提醒到此為止接下來一個很重要的議題這個是媒體很關心的\n當時這個大家在討論救安基金濫用的問題事實上這個之前有揭露過其中你們做那個影片的部分真的這個金額高得嚇人一支影片可以高達上千萬但是點讚數不到500\n那這件事情呢現在再一次被掀出來討論呢大家就看到說審計部他認為難以嚥和履約的結果連審計部都不敢背書那部長你說要檢討請問你的檢討你到目前為止懲處了哪些人哪些人當時是讓他這樣子可以輕易的過關的另外你的檢討要不要移送檢調之前討論霸凌案你是來處理這個霸凌案的\n相關的人等還有當時這個涉案的都已經移送檢調他現在也被起訴那這一個案子涉及到是2800萬這當中如果有審計部都難以背書的覺得你這樣子的一個核銷是有問題的那請問你要不要移送檢調你說要檢討你要不要移送檢調比照之前的霸凌案的處理\n我跟委員說明第一個其實的確針對救安基金致用的問題檢調是已經有立案在調查有包括這個部分嗎就是2800萬就是這整個部分你們提供的有包括2800萬也不只是這部分都有也不只是就是整個救安基金致用的問題檢調現在在已經有立案調查所以他全面的包含這部分都會一併調查\n那我們勞動部其實也是全力在配合這些調查這是第一個第二個就像你的投影片上面寫到其實這幾個東西我們都在改革比方說下面那個常態性的行政支出因回歸公務預算我們已經跟行政院爭取過去可能我們認為其實他應該是支用在公用公務預算來支用的部分不應該用救援基金來支用的部分我們已經跟行政院來爭取所以這個部分在115年的預算裡面我們已經爭取到了一些\n那這部分我們就在落實第二個是沒宣的預算或者是媒體宣導的部分我們在我們也檢討了開口合約的適用的範圍所以今年我說去年底\n沒宣在開口合約上面的標案我就把它給停下來檢討了都沒有了 零件了所以現在我們部裡面是沒有政策沒宣的開口企業的不會再拍這種影片然後用開口合約我們未來會把影片的部分\n我們當然後續未來還會使用開口契約因為各個部會跟地方政府其實大家很多還是使用開口契約可是我們認為在開口契約使用裡面我們覺得未來我們會把影片或者是一些活動給拿出開口契約的適用的範圍這個是我們對於開口契約的檢討所以委員你現在提的其實我們對於包括救安基金的使用包括開口契約的檢討這都是正在落實中的事情\n好 我要求務必落實另外一個勞發署的水電費被報出來說還有九成是由救安基金支出這個是事實嗎這是媒體報的這個是我們因為你剛剛已經說你要回歸公務預算了對 明年的公務預算裡面\n這個因為現在勞發署的嘴電是1比9那我們有跟行政院爭取不應該再是這個比例但因為我們發案署的業務裡面其實也有蠻大部分是在執行基金的業務所以你明年還是九成不是不是不是九成是降低了幾成應該是數是4比6了\n就是降低到六成還是有救安基金支出對因為因為這是跟主計討論我們來盤點這個部分我真的覺得救安基金的濫用有一部分是勞動部你們自己所屬的屬在濫用我覺得這邊很好用金庫就是很多錢該編的不編編到這邊來\n我要提醒這個部長的是現在面對關稅的衝擊事實上你的救安基金就應該要用在刀口上這一些現在已經開始無薪假的勞工真的是非常的辛苦到目前為止已經有4000人這個是有通報的喔我都擔心有一些不見得有通報上來已通報的就已經有4000人喔那他們有的很慘他可能他\n減班休息無薪假之後有可能只領到基本工資28590那請問他少掉的這些薪資你們現在的雇用安定措施薪資補貼也頂多補貼一半薪資差的一半\n現在提高到七成 很好但是你可以想像一個人原來的收入如果他的月薪是五萬塊他要養家然後他因為這樣的減班休息少了請問他的房貸他的車貸還有孩子的學貸怎麼辦\n這個都是衝擊所以我要問你的是你現在除了薪資的補貼你現在差額補貼到七成之外你有沒有給他一些新的貸款的措施像這個九月要開學了很多他家裡有大學生的就是要付學貸了像這一些被衝擊到勞工他的家庭他的家庭支出他如果短時間沒有辦法因應我就問你你的救安基金相關編併的預算還有行政院150億\n你有沒有給予勞工額外彈性的他可以來無息貸款無息貸款的部分其實確實現在沒有在這裡面那我們現在比較著重的事情我們覺得比較重要的事情是如果你減班休息我希望盡量還是把你留在職場上因為如果你調出職場你如果失業的話那後面會更麻煩\n所以我們基本上我們的資源現在先比較集中在先撐住假如你有遇到減班休息的勞工他的經濟安全的部分所以剛剛委員在講到這也是為什麼我們在前兩個禮拜裡面我們其實把原本公安訂措施的五成的補貼薪資差的五成補貼拉高到七成甚至我們還有充電再出發其實可以併領\n因為以前不能併零 以前你只能二選一現在可以併零 甚至可以到你原本的薪資水準但是你那個沖天債出發 你那個金額都是小的我要告訴你的是 有些家庭他原本就有負債或者是他有一些貸款要支付他可能會因為這樣子 他需要一筆資金來運用你講的那個是對他單一月薪的部分的補貼他也不是百分之百所以我現在希望你推薦 我們可以補到他\n我現在希望你回去思考的這一波的關稅衝擊因為我們現在比日韓高出10%然後連知名的上櫃的公司如果都撐不住我擔心更多中小型的後面也撐不住所以你們除了原來的薪資補貼現在七成之外我希望你們去研議就是有沒有可能再額外給勞工這一個無息的貸款讓他至少撐過這一波\n如果他有需求不要讓他們去借地下錢莊不要讓他們去借高利貸不要因為這次的關稅衝擊造成他財務上面更血上加霜這個部分可不可以回去再研議我們可以來針對整體對勞工的支持綜合性的再來思考我希望你們去思考因為你們的這個115年就業安定基金你們現在的編列我希望你們再調整你們其實是要簡列\n促進國民就業的部分怎麼還會減劣呢現在關稅衝擊的問題這麼大你們怎麼反而是下降我現在知道的訊息是你們是下降的是減少反而是減少的我希望你回去好好檢討你們救安基金115年度你要編\n這個跟文說明當然我們回去可以再看一下你現在列出來這幾項增加跟減少可以再去確認但的確有一個部分就像剛才說的我們其實也把一些過去大家認為是在救安基金的支出我們認為應該要用公務預算的我們也把它跟行政院爭取希望可以用公務預算所以挪出去之後你的錢更多啊那你就更應該放在這個促進國民救援還是說你這個9.381都是原來不應該編在這裡的\n不是不是這個意思不是這個意思我們可以確認細節你就徹底檢討好不好我覺得這一波的關稅衝擊真的不要小看現在對傳產的衝擊其實是大的因為我們是20%就是加N了所以這個部分我希望勞動部你責無旁貸對於關稅的衝擊對勞工部支持我們是嚴正以待\n政治的部分你碰少一點你把你更多的心力放在勞工朋友現在最在乎的事情上面我覺得這個就是一個勞動部長你應該做到我們對於關稅的衝擊我們勞動部是嚴正以待全力戒備然後我們也不會做樂觀的樂觀的設想現在沒有樂觀的本錢了20%完全沒有樂觀的本錢我們會要把相對嚴峻的狀況拿來做為我們準備的設想好我們希望給勞工最大的支撐跟支持謝謝好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.364 --> 00:15.258\n謝謝主席我們有請洪部長好請洪部長王委員好\n\n00:16.345 --> 00:40.592\n部長好部長你在7月25號11點44分上班時間發文那你把巴士量表的修法呢舉例說他是一個快速出委員會好像過水式的這樣的一個修法我就要請教你請問巴士量表當時在委員會的審查審查的時間多久為什麼在你認定他是一個過水式的修法\n\n00:41.232 --> 00:58.687\n從什麼時候開始修法那個我想跟委員說明我其實做這個巴塞陽堡的舉例主要是在講的是其實當初其實有機會其實韓院長朝野協商我就問你他是不是一個快速出委員會的修法如果不是請你道歉當時我是召委\n\n00:59.528 --> 01:24.762\n我的牌法並沒有快速的出委員會在委員會討論了兩次還辦了黨團的協商之後委員會也還辦了公聽會你所謂快速的出委員會是什麼意思如果不是的事情一個部長可以公然在你的臉書上面造謠說謊嗎如果這不是你要表達的目的你為什麼把八四亮表的修法通通寫進去了我反對你這樣子誤導\n\n01:27.043 --> 01:43.009\n背離事實巴士亮表的修法在座的委員都在當時有快速出委員會嗎是用表決出委員會嗎都沒有嘛還有經過朝野協商所以這件事情錯了就是錯了我覺得承認錯誤就好這完全是背離事實\n\n01:44.269 --> 02:01.225\n有快速出委員會嗎你先告訴我跟我說明我當初其實是做了幾個法律案的舉例在我的文字裡面那你就不應該把巴斯亮表拿出來嗎我把巴斯亮表我特別為什麼講巴斯亮表的原因是因為他跳過了韓院長要召集的朝野協商你沒有當過立法委員嗎\n\n02:02.286 --> 02:26.756\n現在所有的法案沒有一定要經過韓院長主持的朝野協商委員會自己的協商也算其實當初韓院長是有排的我們是準備了法案原本要到朝野協商上面跟委員好好的來針對這個案子可能可以的做法來討論你覺得都是事後的狡辯之詞這不是事後這是當時發生的事情你當時你的臉書文我希望你自己再把它download下來好好看一遍\n\n02:28.538 --> 02:47.568\n你把巴士亮表的修法說為是一個過水式的修法這個本行是絕對的抗議跟反對背離事實背離委員會好好的審查這一個法條的事實你應該要道歉你根本就是說謊背離事實而且當時你不是勞動部部長\n\n02:49.141 --> 03:15.850\n我是勞動部部長韓院長的協商我是勞動部部長我們委員會審查的時候你不是勞動部部長可是我在講的是韓院長的協商的時候那你為什麼要把那一段寫出來呢完全背離事實嘛你當時又不是部長是何佩珊在當部長你也沒有參與審查的過程你還好意思把整個的結果寫出來掛在臉書上面結果現在就是被打臉完全背離事實第二個我要講當時這一個巴士量表修法就是要簡正辨明\n\n03:16.850 --> 03:42.091\n事實上在野黨的出發點非常簡單就是簡正變民因為有很多民眾有這樣的心聲就是如此而已但是勞動部你們放大了那個衝擊你說有10萬人一下子會湧進10萬人影響非常巨大那我就問你到目前為止你剛剛報告說到目前為止8月17號登記申請的1400人對不對\n\n03:46.075 --> 03:57.893\n那你當時的巨大的衝擊報告在你的臉書所呈現的你試圖要告訴全國民眾說這是一個錯誤的修法這是一個錯誤的政策你當時的立場就是這樣嗎現在事後來看\n\n04:00.596 --> 04:19.122\n現在已經上路了而且你們跟衛福部也有去討論重症優先的原則請問他真的衝擊有那麼大嗎有爆量嗎有所有的人都器重就輕嗎我覺得作為一個政務官秉於專業跟事實這是你最好的解方但是你如果為了反對而反對\n\n04:20.302 --> 04:35.536\n坦白講最後就是自打臉而已媒體下的標就是跌破眼鏡嘛你們當時啊宣稱的十萬結果第一個月應該是如果你當時宣稱是這樣應該第一個月大家都急著要來搶可能至少是幾萬吧結果沒有是一千多\n\n04:37.356 --> 05:03.327\n跟委員說明我們現在在數據上面的確看到第二個星期是第一個星期的兩倍是多少的兩倍是第一個星期的兩倍對數字是多少所以它的成長的趨勢是看得到的我知道嘛那本數是多少啦不要再用那種兩倍的數字刻意好像還不想承認錯誤還要想要去放大說是兩倍的成長那個都沒有意義事實就是事實\n\n05:04.227 --> 05:31.906\n我說過了80歲以上開放的這一個免巴士量表他的初心只有一個是要簡正便民他不在於是侯友宇的政策不在於是賴清德的政策而是民意之所向因為現在的程序就是很繁複僅此而已你當然可以有你的立場反對但不用去誇大數字刻意要來貶抑這個政策他本身利益良善的這個部分我就提醒到此為止接下來一個很重要的議題這個是媒體很關心的\n\n05:36.369 --> 05:51.680\n當時這個大家在討論救安基金濫用的問題事實上這個之前有揭露過其中你們做那個影片的部分真的這個金額高得嚇人一支影片可以高達上千萬但是點讚數不到500\n\n05:52.981 --> 06:19.928\n那這件事情呢現在再一次被掀出來討論呢大家就看到說審計部他認為難以嚥和履約的結果連審計部都不敢背書那部長你說要檢討請問你的檢討你到目前為止懲處了哪些人哪些人當時是讓他這樣子可以輕易的過關的另外你的檢討要不要移送檢調之前討論霸凌案你是來處理這個霸凌案的\n\n06:22.449 --> 06:44.274\n相關的人等還有當時這個涉案的都已經移送檢調他現在也被起訴那這一個案子涉及到是2800萬這當中如果有審計部都難以背書的覺得你這樣子的一個核銷是有問題的那請問你要不要移送檢調你說要檢討你要不要移送檢調比照之前的霸凌案的處理\n\n06:44.834 --> 07:07.496\n我跟委員說明第一個其實的確針對救安基金致用的問題檢調是已經有立案在調查有包括這個部分嗎就是2800萬就是這整個部分你們提供的有包括2800萬也不只是這部分都有也不只是就是整個救安基金致用的問題檢調現在在已經有立案調查所以他全面的包含這部分都會一併調查\n\n07:08.177 --> 07:35.709\n那我們勞動部其實也是全力在配合這些調查這是第一個第二個就像你的投影片上面寫到其實這幾個東西我們都在改革比方說下面那個常態性的行政支出因回歸公務預算我們已經跟行政院爭取過去可能我們認為其實他應該是支用在公用公務預算來支用的部分不應該用救援基金來支用的部分我們已經跟行政院來爭取所以這個部分在115年的預算裡面我們已經爭取到了一些\n\n07:36.869 --> 07:49.612\n那這部分我們就在落實第二個是沒宣的預算或者是媒體宣導的部分我們在我們也檢討了開口合約的適用的範圍所以今年我說去年底\n\n07:50.982 --> 08:06.393\n沒宣在開口合約上面的標案我就把它給停下來檢討了都沒有了零件了所以現在我們部裡面是沒有政策沒宣的開口企業的不會再拍這種影片然後用開口合約我們未來會把影片的部分\n\n08:07.153 --> 08:32.572\n我們當然後續未來還會使用開口契約因為各個部會跟地方政府其實大家很多還是使用開口契約可是我們認為在開口契約使用裡面我們覺得未來我們會把影片或者是一些活動給拿出開口契約的適用的範圍這個是我們對於開口契約的檢討所以委員你現在提的其實我們對於包括救安基金的使用包括開口契約的檢討這都是正在落實中的事情\n\n08:32.912 --> 08:48.171\n好我要求務必落實另外一個勞發署的水電費被報出來說還有九成是由救安基金支出這個是事實嗎這是媒體報的這個是我們因為你剛剛已經說你要回歸公務預算了對明年的公務預算裡面\n\n08:51.416 --> 09:10.001\n這個因為現在勞發署的嘴電是1比9那我們有跟行政院爭取不應該再是這個比例但因為我們發案署的業務裡面其實也有蠻大部分是在執行基金的業務所以你明年還是九成不是不是不是九成是降低了幾成應該是數是4比6了\n\n09:10.714 --> 09:26.860\n就是降低到六成還是有救安基金支出對因為因為這是跟主計討論我們來盤點這個部分我真的覺得救安基金的濫用有一部分是勞動部你們自己所屬的屬在濫用我覺得這邊很好用金庫就是很多錢該編的不編編到這邊來\n\n09:30.081 --> 09:56.923\n我要提醒這個部長的是現在面對關稅的衝擊事實上你的救安基金就應該要用在刀口上這一些現在已經開始無薪假的勞工真的是非常的辛苦到目前為止已經有4000人這個是有通報的喔我都擔心有一些不見得有通報上來已通報的就已經有4000人喔那他們有的很慘他可能他\n\n09:57.964 --> 10:13.244\n減班休息無薪假之後有可能只領到基本工資28590那請問他少掉的這些薪資你們現在的雇用安定措施薪資補貼也頂多補貼一半薪資差的一半\n\n10:14.373 --> 10:29.604\n現在提高到七成很好但是你可以想像一個人原來的收入如果他的月薪是五萬塊他要養家然後他因為這樣的減班休息少了請問他的房貸他的車貸還有孩子的學貸怎麼辦\n\n10:30.585 --> 10:55.785\n這個都是衝擊所以我要問你的是你現在除了薪資的補貼你現在差額補貼到七成之外你有沒有給他一些新的貸款的措施像這個九月要開學了很多他家裡有大學生的就是要付學貸了像這一些被衝擊到勞工他的家庭他的家庭支出他如果短時間沒有辦法因應我就問你你的救安基金相關編併的預算還有行政院150億\n\n10:57.006 --> 11:18.488\n你有沒有給予勞工額外彈性的他可以來無息貸款無息貸款的部分其實確實現在沒有在這裡面那我們現在比較著重的事情我們覺得比較重要的事情是如果你減班休息我希望盡量還是把你留在職場上因為如果你調出職場你如果失業的話那後面會更麻煩\n\n11:19.389 --> 11:39.707\n所以我們基本上我們的資源現在先比較集中在先撐住假如你有遇到減班休息的勞工他的經濟安全的部分所以剛剛委員在講到這也是為什麼我們在前兩個禮拜裡面我們其實把原本公安訂措施的五成的補貼薪資差的五成補貼拉高到七成甚至我們還有充電再出發其實可以併領\n\n11:40.327 --> 12:05.325\n因為以前不能併零以前你只能二選一現在可以併零甚至可以到你原本的薪資水準但是你那個沖天債出發你那個金額都是小的我要告訴你的是有些家庭他原本就有負債或者是他有一些貸款要支付他可能會因為這樣子他需要一筆資金來運用你講的那個是對他單一月薪的部分的補貼他也不是百分之百所以我現在希望你推薦我們可以補到他\n\n12:06.266 --> 12:31.462\n我現在希望你回去思考的這一波的關稅衝擊因為我們現在比日韓高出10%然後連知名的上櫃的公司如果都撐不住我擔心更多中小型的後面也撐不住所以你們除了原來的薪資補貼現在七成之外我希望你們去研議就是有沒有可能再額外給勞工這一個無息的貸款讓他至少撐過這一波\n\n12:32.122 --> 12:56.977\n如果他有需求不要讓他們去借地下錢莊不要讓他們去借高利貸不要因為這次的關稅衝擊造成他財務上面更血上加霜這個部分可不可以回去再研議我們可以來針對整體對勞工的支持綜合性的再來思考我希望你們去思考因為你們的這個115年就業安定基金你們現在的編列我希望你們再調整你們其實是要簡列\n\n12:58.453 --> 13:14.407\n促進國民就業的部分怎麼還會減劣呢現在關稅衝擊的問題這麼大你們怎麼反而是下降我現在知道的訊息是你們是下降的是減少反而是減少的我希望你回去好好檢討你們救安基金115年度你要編\n\n13:15.647 --> 13:37.455\n這個跟文說明當然我們回去可以再看一下你現在列出來這幾項增加跟減少可以再去確認但的確有一個部分就像剛才說的我們其實也把一些過去大家認為是在救安基金的支出我們認為應該要用公務預算的我們也把它跟行政院爭取希望可以用公務預算所以挪出去之後你的錢更多啊那你就更應該放在這個促進國民救援還是說你這個9.381都是原來不應該編在這裡的\n\n13:40.196 --> 13:59.277\n不是不是這個意思不是這個意思我們可以確認細節你就徹底檢討好不好我覺得這一波的關稅衝擊真的不要小看現在對傳產的衝擊其實是大的因為我們是20%就是加N了所以這個部分我希望勞動部你責無旁貸對於關稅的衝擊對勞工部支持我們是嚴正以待\n\n14:01.599 --> 14:27.480\n政治的部分你碰少一點你把你更多的心力放在勞工朋友現在最在乎的事情上面我覺得這個就是一個勞動部長你應該做到我們對於關稅的衝擊我們勞動部是嚴正以待全力戒備然後我們也不會做樂觀的樂觀的設想現在沒有樂觀的本錢了20%完全沒有樂觀的本錢我們會要把相對嚴峻的狀況拿來做為我們準備的設想好我們希望給勞工最大的支撐跟支持謝謝好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.364,"end":15.258,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請洪部長好 請洪部長王委員好"},{"start":16.345,"end":40.592,"text":"部長好部長你在7月25號11點44分上班時間發文那你把巴士量表的修法呢舉例說他是一個快速出委員會好像過水式的這樣的一個修法我就要請教你請問巴士量表當時在委員會的審查審查的時間多久為什麼在你認定他是一個過水式的修法"},{"start":41.232,"end":58.687,"text":"從什麼時候開始修法那個我想跟委員說明我其實做這個巴塞陽堡的舉例主要是在講的是其實當初其實有機會其實韓院長朝野協商我就問你他是不是一個快速出委員會的修法如果不是請你道歉當時我是召委"},{"start":59.528,"end":84.762,"text":"我的牌法並沒有快速的出委員會在委員會討論了兩次還辦了黨團的協商之後委員會也還辦了公聽會你所謂快速的出委員會是什麼意思如果不是的事情一個部長可以公然在你的臉書上面造謠說謊嗎如果這不是你要表達的目的你為什麼把八四亮表的修法通通寫進去了我反對你這樣子誤導"},{"start":87.043,"end":103.009,"text":"背離事實巴士亮表的修法 在座的委員都在當時有快速出委員會嗎是用表決出委員會嗎 都沒有嘛還有經過朝野協商所以這件事情錯了就是錯了我覺得承認錯誤就好這完全是背離事實"},{"start":104.269,"end":121.225,"text":"有快速出委員會嗎 你先告訴我跟我說明我當初其實是做了幾個法律案的舉例在我的文字裡面那你就不應該把巴斯亮表拿出來嗎我把巴斯亮表我特別為什麼講巴斯亮表的原因是因為他跳過了韓院長要召集的朝野協商你沒有當過立法委員嗎"},{"start":122.286,"end":146.756,"text":"現在所有的法案沒有一定要經過韓院長主持的朝野協商委員會自己的協商也算其實當初韓院長是有排的我們是準備了法案原本要到朝野協商上面跟委員好好的來針對這個案子可能可以的做法來討論你覺得都是事後的狡辯之詞這不是事後 這是當時發生的事情你當時你的臉書文我希望你自己再把它download下來好好看一遍"},{"start":148.538,"end":167.568,"text":"你把巴士亮表的修法說為是一個過水式的修法這個本行是絕對的抗議跟反對背離事實背離委員會好好的審查這一個法條的事實你應該要道歉你根本就是說謊背離事實而且當時你不是勞動部部長"},{"start":169.141,"end":195.85,"text":"我是勞動部部長 韓院長的協商我是勞動部部長我們委員會審查的時候你不是勞動部部長可是我在講的是韓院長的協商的時候那你為什麼要把那一段寫出來呢 完全背離事實嘛你當時又不是部長 是何佩珊在當部長你也沒有參與審查的過程 你還好意思把整個的結果寫出來掛在臉書上面結果現在就是被打臉 完全背離事實第二個我要講 當時這一個巴士量表修法就是要簡正辨明"},{"start":196.85,"end":222.091,"text":"事實上在野黨的出發點非常簡單就是簡正變民因為有很多民眾有這樣的心聲就是如此而已但是勞動部你們放大了那個衝擊你說有10萬人一下子會湧進10萬人影響非常巨大那我就問你到目前為止你剛剛報告說到目前為止8月17號登記申請的1400人對不對"},{"start":226.075,"end":237.893,"text":"那你當時的巨大的衝擊報告在你的臉書所呈現的你試圖要告訴全國民眾說這是一個錯誤的修法這是一個錯誤的政策你當時的立場就是這樣嗎現在事後來看"},{"start":240.596,"end":259.122,"text":"現在已經上路了而且你們跟衛福部也有去討論重症優先的原則請問他真的衝擊有那麼大嗎有爆量嗎有所有的人都器重就輕嗎我覺得作為一個政務官秉於專業跟事實這是你最好的解方但是你如果為了反對而反對"},{"start":260.302,"end":275.536,"text":"坦白講最後就是自打臉而已媒體下的標就是跌破眼鏡嘛你們當時啊宣稱的十萬結果第一個月應該是如果你當時宣稱是這樣應該第一個月大家都急著要來搶可能至少是幾萬吧結果沒有是一千多"},{"start":277.356,"end":303.327,"text":"跟委員說明我們現在在數據上面的確看到第二個星期是第一個星期的兩倍是多少的兩倍是第一個星期的兩倍對 數字是多少所以它的成長的趨勢是看得到的我知道嘛 那本數是多少啦不要再用那種兩倍的數字刻意好像還不想承認錯誤還要想要去放大說是兩倍的成長那個都沒有意義事實就是事實"},{"start":304.227,"end":331.906,"text":"我說過了80歲以上開放的這一個免巴士量表他的初心只有一個是要簡正便民他不在於是侯友宇的政策不在於是賴清德的政策而是民意之所向因為現在的程序就是很繁複僅此而已你當然可以有你的立場反對但不用去誇大數字刻意要來貶抑這個政策他本身利益良善的這個部分我就提醒到此為止接下來一個很重要的議題這個是媒體很關心的"},{"start":336.369,"end":351.68,"text":"當時這個大家在討論救安基金濫用的問題事實上這個之前有揭露過其中你們做那個影片的部分真的這個金額高得嚇人一支影片可以高達上千萬但是點讚數不到500"},{"start":352.981,"end":379.928,"text":"那這件事情呢現在再一次被掀出來討論呢大家就看到說審計部他認為難以嚥和履約的結果連審計部都不敢背書那部長你說要檢討請問你的檢討你到目前為止懲處了哪些人哪些人當時是讓他這樣子可以輕易的過關的另外你的檢討要不要移送檢調之前討論霸凌案你是來處理這個霸凌案的"},{"start":382.449,"end":404.274,"text":"相關的人等還有當時這個涉案的都已經移送檢調他現在也被起訴那這一個案子涉及到是2800萬這當中如果有審計部都難以背書的覺得你這樣子的一個核銷是有問題的那請問你要不要移送檢調你說要檢討你要不要移送檢調比照之前的霸凌案的處理"},{"start":404.834,"end":427.496,"text":"我跟委員說明第一個其實的確針對救安基金致用的問題檢調是已經有立案在調查有包括這個部分嗎就是2800萬就是這整個部分你們提供的有包括2800萬也不只是這部分都有也不只是就是整個救安基金致用的問題檢調現在在已經有立案調查所以他全面的包含這部分都會一併調查"},{"start":428.177,"end":455.709,"text":"那我們勞動部其實也是全力在配合這些調查這是第一個第二個就像你的投影片上面寫到其實這幾個東西我們都在改革比方說下面那個常態性的行政支出因回歸公務預算我們已經跟行政院爭取過去可能我們認為其實他應該是支用在公用公務預算來支用的部分不應該用救援基金來支用的部分我們已經跟行政院來爭取所以這個部分在115年的預算裡面我們已經爭取到了一些"},{"start":456.869,"end":469.612,"text":"那這部分我們就在落實第二個是沒宣的預算或者是媒體宣導的部分我們在我們也檢討了開口合約的適用的範圍所以今年我說去年底"},{"start":470.982,"end":486.393,"text":"沒宣在開口合約上面的標案我就把它給停下來檢討了都沒有了 零件了所以現在我們部裡面是沒有政策沒宣的開口企業的不會再拍這種影片然後用開口合約我們未來會把影片的部分"},{"start":487.153,"end":512.572,"text":"我們當然後續未來還會使用開口契約因為各個部會跟地方政府其實大家很多還是使用開口契約可是我們認為在開口契約使用裡面我們覺得未來我們會把影片或者是一些活動給拿出開口契約的適用的範圍這個是我們對於開口契約的檢討所以委員你現在提的其實我們對於包括救安基金的使用包括開口契約的檢討這都是正在落實中的事情"},{"start":512.912,"end":528.171,"text":"好 我要求務必落實另外一個勞發署的水電費被報出來說還有九成是由救安基金支出這個是事實嗎這是媒體報的這個是我們因為你剛剛已經說你要回歸公務預算了對 明年的公務預算裡面"},{"start":531.416,"end":550.001,"text":"這個因為現在勞發署的嘴電是1比9那我們有跟行政院爭取不應該再是這個比例但因為我們發案署的業務裡面其實也有蠻大部分是在執行基金的業務所以你明年還是九成不是不是不是九成是降低了幾成應該是數是4比6了"},{"start":550.714,"end":566.86,"text":"就是降低到六成還是有救安基金支出對因為因為這是跟主計討論我們來盤點這個部分我真的覺得救安基金的濫用有一部分是勞動部你們自己所屬的屬在濫用我覺得這邊很好用金庫就是很多錢該編的不編編到這邊來"},{"start":570.081,"end":596.923,"text":"我要提醒這個部長的是現在面對關稅的衝擊事實上你的救安基金就應該要用在刀口上這一些現在已經開始無薪假的勞工真的是非常的辛苦到目前為止已經有4000人這個是有通報的喔我都擔心有一些不見得有通報上來已通報的就已經有4000人喔那他們有的很慘他可能他"},{"start":597.964,"end":613.244,"text":"減班休息無薪假之後有可能只領到基本工資28590那請問他少掉的這些薪資你們現在的雇用安定措施薪資補貼也頂多補貼一半薪資差的一半"},{"start":614.373,"end":629.604,"text":"現在提高到七成 很好但是你可以想像一個人原來的收入如果他的月薪是五萬塊他要養家然後他因為這樣的減班休息少了請問他的房貸他的車貸還有孩子的學貸怎麼辦"},{"start":630.585,"end":655.785,"text":"這個都是衝擊所以我要問你的是你現在除了薪資的補貼你現在差額補貼到七成之外你有沒有給他一些新的貸款的措施像這個九月要開學了很多他家裡有大學生的就是要付學貸了像這一些被衝擊到勞工他的家庭他的家庭支出他如果短時間沒有辦法因應我就問你你的救安基金相關編併的預算還有行政院150億"},{"start":657.006,"end":678.488,"text":"你有沒有給予勞工額外彈性的他可以來無息貸款無息貸款的部分其實確實現在沒有在這裡面那我們現在比較著重的事情我們覺得比較重要的事情是如果你減班休息我希望盡量還是把你留在職場上因為如果你調出職場你如果失業的話那後面會更麻煩"},{"start":679.389,"end":699.707,"text":"所以我們基本上我們的資源現在先比較集中在先撐住假如你有遇到減班休息的勞工他的經濟安全的部分所以剛剛委員在講到這也是為什麼我們在前兩個禮拜裡面我們其實把原本公安訂措施的五成的補貼薪資差的五成補貼拉高到七成甚至我們還有充電再出發其實可以併領"},{"start":700.327,"end":725.325,"text":"因為以前不能併零 以前你只能二選一現在可以併零 甚至可以到你原本的薪資水準但是你那個沖天債出發 你那個金額都是小的我要告訴你的是 有些家庭他原本就有負債或者是他有一些貸款要支付他可能會因為這樣子 他需要一筆資金來運用你講的那個是對他單一月薪的部分的補貼他也不是百分之百所以我現在希望你推薦 我們可以補到他"},{"start":726.266,"end":751.462,"text":"我現在希望你回去思考的這一波的關稅衝擊因為我們現在比日韓高出10%然後連知名的上櫃的公司如果都撐不住我擔心更多中小型的後面也撐不住所以你們除了原來的薪資補貼現在七成之外我希望你們去研議就是有沒有可能再額外給勞工這一個無息的貸款讓他至少撐過這一波"},{"start":752.122,"end":776.977,"text":"如果他有需求不要讓他們去借地下錢莊不要讓他們去借高利貸不要因為這次的關稅衝擊造成他財務上面更血上加霜這個部分可不可以回去再研議我們可以來針對整體對勞工的支持綜合性的再來思考我希望你們去思考因為你們的這個115年就業安定基金你們現在的編列我希望你們再調整你們其實是要簡列"},{"start":778.453,"end":794.407,"text":"促進國民就業的部分怎麼還會減劣呢現在關稅衝擊的問題這麼大你們怎麼反而是下降我現在知道的訊息是你們是下降的是減少反而是減少的我希望你回去好好檢討你們救安基金115年度你要編"},{"start":795.647,"end":817.455,"text":"這個跟文說明當然我們回去可以再看一下你現在列出來這幾項增加跟減少可以再去確認但的確有一個部分就像剛才說的我們其實也把一些過去大家認為是在救安基金的支出我們認為應該要用公務預算的我們也把它跟行政院爭取希望可以用公務預算所以挪出去之後你的錢更多啊那你就更應該放在這個促進國民救援還是說你這個9.381都是原來不應該編在這裡的"},{"start":820.196,"end":839.277,"text":"不是不是這個意思不是這個意思我們可以確認細節你就徹底檢討好不好我覺得這一波的關稅衝擊真的不要小看現在對傳產的衝擊其實是大的因為我們是20%就是加N了所以這個部分我希望勞動部你責無旁貸對於關稅的衝擊對勞工部支持我們是嚴正以待"},{"start":841.599,"end":867.48,"text":"政治的部分你碰少一點你把你更多的心力放在勞工朋友現在最在乎的事情上面我覺得這個就是一個勞動部長你應該做到我們對於關稅的衝擊我們勞動部是嚴正以待全力戒備然後我們也不會做樂觀的樂觀的設想現在沒有樂觀的本錢了20%完全沒有樂觀的本錢我們會要把相對嚴峻的狀況拿來做為我們準備的設想好我們希望給勞工最大的支撐跟支持謝謝好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":284,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（9時53分）謝謝主席。我們有請洪部長。"],["主席：好，請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長在7月25日11點44分上班時間發文，你把巴氏量表的修法舉例為它是一個快速出委員會，好像過水式這樣的修法。我就要請教你，請問巴氏量表當時在委員會的審查，審查的時間多久，為什麼你的認定，它是一個過水式的修法？從什麼時候開始修法？"],["洪部長申翰：我想跟委員說明，其實做這個巴氏量表的舉例，主要在講的是當初有機會在韓院長的朝野協商，我們可以有更多的機會坐下來……"],["王委員育敏：我就問你，它是不是一個快速出委員會的修法？如果不是，請你道歉，當時我是召委，我的排法並沒有快速出委員會，在委員會討論了兩次，還辦了黨團的協商，之後委員會也還辦了公聽會，你所謂快速的出委員會是什麼意思？如果不是，一個部長可以公然在你的臉書上面造謠、說謊嗎？如果這不是你要表達的目的，你為什麼把巴氏量表的修法通通寫進去了？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明……"],["王委員育敏：我反對你這樣子誤導、背離事實，巴氏量表的修法，在座委員都在，當時有快速出委員會嗎？是用表決出委員會嗎？都沒有嘛！還有經過朝野協商……"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我當初的表達……"],["王委員育敏：所以這一件事情錯了就是錯了，我覺得承認錯誤就好，這完全是背離事實！"],["洪部長申翰：委員，可以讓我說明嗎？"],["王委員育敏：有快速出委員會嗎？你先告訴我，不符合事實嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我當初其實是做了幾個法律案的舉例，在我的文字裡面……"],["王委員育敏：你就不應該把巴氏量表拿出來。"],["洪部長申翰：我為什麼要特別講巴氏量表的原因，是因為它跳過了韓院長要召集的朝野協商……"],["王委員育敏：你沒有當過立法委員嗎？現在所有的法案沒有一定要經過韓院長主持的朝野協商啊，委員會自己的協商也算。"],["洪部長申翰：其實當初韓院長是有排的，我們是準備了法案，原本要到朝野協商上面，跟委員好好針對這個案子可能可以的作法討論……"],["王委員育敏：你那個都是事後的狡辯之詞。"],["洪部長申翰：這不是事後，這是當時發生的事情。"],["王委員育敏：你的臉書文，我希望你自己再把它download下來好好看一遍，你把巴氏量表的修法說為是一個過水式的修法，這個本席是絕對的抗議跟反對，它背離事實、背離委員會好好的審查這一個事實，你應該要道歉，你根本就是說謊，背離事實，而且當時你不是勞動部部長。"],["洪部長申翰：我是勞動部部長，韓院長的協商，我是勞動部部長。"],["王委員育敏：我們委員會審查的時候，你不是勞動部部長。"],["洪部長申翰：對，可是我在講的是韓院長協商的時候，當時跳過，我們覺得很遺憾。"],["王委員育敏：你為什麼要把那一段寫出來呢？完全背離事實嘛，你當時又不是部長，是何佩珊在當部長，你也沒有參與審查的過程，你還好意思把整個結果寫出來，掛在臉書上面？結果現在就是被打臉，完全背離事實。第二個，我要講，當時這一個巴氏量表修法就是要簡政便民，事實上在野黨的出發點非常簡單，就是簡政便民，因為有很多民眾有這樣的心聲，就是如此而已，但是勞動部放大了那個衝擊，你說有10萬人、一下子會湧進10萬人，影響非常巨大。我就問你，你剛剛報告到目前為止，8月17日登記申請的是1,400人，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["王委員育敏：你當時的巨大衝擊報告在你的臉書所呈現的，你試圖要告訴全國民眾這是一個錯誤的修法、這是一個錯誤的政策，你當時的立場就是這樣，事後來看，現在已經上路了，而且你們跟衛福部也有討論重症優先的原則，請問它真的衝擊有那麼大嗎？有爆量嗎？有所有的人都棄重就輕嗎？我覺得作為一個政務官，秉於專業跟事實，這是你最好的解方，但是你如果為了反對而反對，坦白講，最後就是自打臉而已，媒體下的標就是「跌破眼鏡」嘛！你們當時宣稱的10萬，結果第一個月是如何？如果你當時宣稱是這樣，應該第一個月大家都急著要來搶，可能至少是幾萬吧，結果沒有，是一千多。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們現在在數據上面的確看到第二個星期是第一個星期的兩倍……"],["王委員育敏：是多少的兩倍？"],["洪部長申翰：是第一個星期的兩倍。"],["王委員育敏：對，數字是多少？"],["洪部長申翰：所以它的成長趨勢是看得到的。"],["王委員育敏：我知道嘛！母數是多少嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：但是接下來我跟……"],["王委員育敏：不要再用那種兩倍的數字刻意講，好像不想承認錯誤，還想要去放大，說是兩倍的成長，那個都沒有意義，事實就是事實。我說過了，80歲以上開放免巴氏量表，它的初心只有一個，它是要簡政便民，它不在於是侯友宜的政策、不在於是賴清德的政策，而是民意之所向，因為現在的程序就是很繁複，僅此而已。你當然可以有你的立場反對，但不用去誇大數字，刻意要來貶抑這個政策本身立意良善的部分，我就提醒到此為止。","接下來有一個很重要的議題，這個是媒體很關心的，當時大家在討論就安基金濫用的問題，事實上這個之前有揭露過，其中你們做那個影片的部分，金額真的高得嚇人，一支影片可以高達上千萬，但是點讚數不到500。這件事情現在再次被掀出來討論，大家就看到審計部認為難以驗核履約的結果，連審計部都不敢背書。部長說要檢討，請問你的檢討，到目前為止懲處了哪些人？哪些人當時是讓他這樣子可以輕易過關的？另外，你的檢討要不要移送檢調？之前討論霸凌案，你是來處理霸凌案的，相關的人等還有當時涉案的都已經移送檢調，他現在也被起訴，而這一個案子涉及2,800萬，這當中如果有審計部都難以背書的，覺得你這樣的核銷是有問題的，那麼請問你要不要移送檢調？你說要檢討，你要不要移送檢調，比照之前霸凌案的處理方式？"],["洪部長申翰：好的，我跟委員說明，第一個，的確針對就安基金支用這個問題，檢調已經有立案在調查……"],["王委員育敏：有包括這個部分嗎？2,800萬？"],["洪部長申翰：就是這整個部分。"],["王委員育敏：你們提供的有包含2,800萬的部分？"],["洪部長申翰：也不只是這部分……"],["王委員育敏：都有？"],["洪部長申翰：也不只是，就是整個就安基金支用的問題，檢調現在已經有立案調查。"],["王委員育敏：所以全面包含這部分都會一併調查？"],["洪部長申翰：對，我們勞動部其實也是全力在配合這些調查，這是第一個。第二個，就像你的投影片上面寫到，其實這幾個東西我們都在改革，比方下面那個「常態性的行政支出，應回歸公務預算」，我們已經跟行政院爭取。我們認為其實它應該是用公務預算支用，而不應該用就安基金來支用。我們已經跟行政院爭取，所以在115年的預算裡面我們已經爭取到了一些，我們在落實。第三個，媒宣的預算或者是媒體宣導的部分，我們也檢討了開口合約的適用範圍，所以去年底媒宣在開口合約上面的標案，我就把它給停下來檢討了……"],["王委員育敏：都沒有了？0件了？"],["洪部長申翰：所以現在我們部裡面沒有政策媒宣的開口契約了。"],["王委員育敏：不會再拍這種影片，然後用開口合約？"],["洪部長申翰：我們未來會把影片的部分，當然未來還會使用開口契約，因為各個部會跟地方政府，其實大家很多還是使用開口契約，可是我們認為在開口契約的使用裡面，未來我們會把影片或者是一些活動拿出開口契約的適用範圍，這個是我們對於開口契約的檢討。所以委員現在提的，其實我們對於包括就安基金的使用，包括開口契約的檢討，這都是正在落實中的事情。"],["王委員育敏：好，我要求務必落實。","另外一個是勞發署的水電費被爆出來還有九成是由就安基金支出，這個是事實嗎？這是媒體報導的。"],["洪部長申翰：有關這個部分，我們應該是在明年的預算……"],["王委員育敏：因為你剛剛已經說你要回歸公務預算了。"],["洪部長申翰：對，明年的公務預算裡面……"],["王委員育敏：你還涵蓋了九成。"],["洪部長申翰：因為現在勞發署的水電是一比九，我們有跟行政院爭取不應該再是這個比例，但是因為我們發展署的業務裡面，其實有滿大部分是在執行基金的業務……"],["王委員育敏：所以你明年還是九成用就安基金支付？"],["洪部長申翰：不是，不是九成，是降低了。"],["王委員育敏：幾成？"],["洪部長申翰：署應該是四比六了。"],["王委員育敏：就是降低到六成還是由就安基金支出？"],["洪部長申翰：對，因為這是跟主計討論，我們來盤點發展署的業務裡面，有多少是在辦就安基金的業務……"],["王委員育敏：好，我真的覺得就安基金的濫用，有一部分是勞動部你們自己所屬的署在濫用，覺得這邊很好用，是個金庫，結果很多錢該編的不編，編到這邊來。","我要提醒部長的是現在面對關稅的衝擊，事實上，你的就安基金就應該要用在刀口上，現在已經開始無薪假的這一些勞工真的是非常的辛苦！到目前為止已經有4,000人，這個是有通報的，我都擔心有一些不見得有通報上來，已通報的就已經有4,000人。他們有的很慘，減班休息、無薪假之後，他有可能只領到基本工資2萬8,590，他少掉的這些薪資，你們現在的僱用安定措施薪資補貼也頂多補貼一半、薪資差額的一半……"],["洪部長申翰：不是，現在提高到七成。"],["王委員育敏：提高到七成，很好！但是你可以想像，一個人原來的收入如果是月薪5萬塊，他要養家，然後因為這樣的減班休息少了，請問他的房貸、他的車貸，還有孩子的學貸，怎麼辦？這個都是衝擊！所以我要問你的是你現在除了薪資補貼，差額補貼到七成之外，有沒有給他一些新的貸款措施？像9月要開學了，很多家裡有大學生的就是要付學貸了，像這一些被衝擊到的勞工家庭，他的家庭支出如果短時間沒有辦法因應，我就問你，你的就安基金相關編定的預算，還有行政院的150億，有沒有給予勞工額外的彈性，讓他可以來無息貸款？"],["洪部長申翰：無息貸款的部分確實現在沒有在這裡面，我們現在比較著重的事情、覺得比較重要的事情是如果他減班休息，我希望儘量還是把他留在職場上，因為如果他掉出職場失業的話，後面會更麻煩。所以基本上我們的資源現在比較集中在先撐住遇到減班休息的勞工的經濟安全部分，這也是為什麼我們在前兩個禮拜裡面，把原本僱用安定措施薪資差額的五成補貼拉高到七成……"],["王委員育敏：很好！這個我贊成。"],["洪部長申翰：甚至我們還有「充電再出發」，其實可以併領，以前是不能併領，以前只能二選一，現在可以併領，甚至可以到他原本的薪資水準。"],["王委員育敏：但是你那個「充電再出發」的金額都是小的。我要告訴你的是有些家庭原本就有負債，或者是有些貸款要支付，他可能會因為這樣子需要一筆資金來運用。你講的那個是對他月薪單一部分的補貼，也不是百分之百，所以我現在希望你回去……"],["洪部長申翰：我們可以補到他……"],["王委員育敏：我現在希望你回去思考，這一波的關稅衝擊，因為我們現在比日韓高出10%，連知名的上櫃公司如果都撐不住，我擔心更多中小型的後面也撐不住，所以你們除了原來的薪資補貼現在是七成之外，我希望你們去研議，有沒有可能再額外給勞工可以無息貸款，讓他至少撐過這一波再說……"],["洪部長申翰：我們可以來……"],["王委員育敏：如果他有需求，不要讓他們去借地下錢莊、不要讓他們去借高利貸，不要因為這一次的關稅衝擊造成他財務上面更雪上加霜，這一個部分可不可以回去再研議？"],["洪部長申翰：我們可以針對整體對勞工的支持，再來綜合性地思考及盤點。"],["王委員育敏：好，我希望你們去思考，你們現在115年就業安定基金的編列，我希望你們再調整，你們是要減列促進國民就業的部分，怎麼還會減列呢？現在關稅衝擊的問題這麼大，你們這個部分怎麼反而是下降？我現在知道的訊息是你們這個部分是下降的、是減少的，反而是減少的，我希望你回去好好檢討你們就安基金115年度要編列的數額。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，當然我們回去可以再看一下你現在列出來這幾項增加及減少的原因，我們可以再去確認。但的確有一個部分，就像剛才說的，我們其實也把過去大家認為是在就安基金的支出，但我們認為應該要用公務預算的，我們也跟行政院爭取，希望可以用公務預算……"],["王委員育敏：當然，挪出去之後，你的錢更多，你就更應該放在促進國民就業，還是你這個9.38億都是原來不應該編在這裡的……"],["洪部長申翰：不是，不是這個意思、不是這個意思……"],["王委員育敏：好，那你就澈底檢討……"],["洪部長申翰：我們可以確認細節。"],["王委員育敏：你就澈底檢討，好不好？我覺得這一波的關稅衝擊真的不要小看……"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["王委員育敏：現在對傳產的衝擊其實是大的，因為我們是20%加N，所以這個部分我希望勞動部責無旁貸……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，對於關稅的衝擊、對勞工的支持，我們是嚴陣以待。"],["王委員育敏：部長，政治的部分你碰少一點，你把你更多的心力放在勞工朋友現在最在乎的事情上面，我覺得這個就是一個勞動部長應該做到位的，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：對於關稅的衝擊，勞動部是嚴陣以待、全力戒備……"],["王委員育敏：好，就這樣。"],["洪部長申翰：我們也不會做樂觀的設想……"],["王委員育敏：現在沒有樂觀的本錢了，20%完全沒有樂觀的本錢。"],["洪部長申翰：對，我們不會做樂觀的設想，我們會把相對嚴峻的狀況拿來做為我們準備的設想。"],["王委員育敏：好，我們希望給勞工最大的支撐及支持……"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["王委員育敏：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王育敏委員的發言，也謝謝洪部長的答詢。","下一位請邱鎮軍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":220,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-25","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","林淑芬","王正旭","陳瑩","盧縣一","楊曜","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","何欣純"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2025-08-20"],"gazette_id":"1147502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長、衛生福利部就「就業服務法第46條，80歲以上長者聘請外籍看護免巴氏量\n表上路，對重症家庭的衝擊與配套措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審查 (一）委員王\n育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(二）委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人\n自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九\n條及第十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正\n草案」案、(五)委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案【逐條\n討論】","agenda_id":"1147502_00002"}}}