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00:01:25,358\n非常非常痛苦,因為廠長就是為了開個巴士輛票,包括我,廠長都要拜託,經常糾紛,我說覺得這不是必要,那麼就造成很多臨床醫師的困擾,也有衝突過,甚至有動手的,所以那個時候就提出來,提出來之後大家都很贊成,\n\n5\n00:01:27,540 --> 00:01:54,625\n那就在去年年底就通過了嘛現在這個案子已經在公告實施了那第二個問題這個法是我是覺得是OK的啦第二個問題就是說這些外籍的看護人來台灣之後他們會挑軟的重症的沒辦法過\n\n6\n00:01:55,669 --> 00:02:11,169\n是不是我們會怕這個嘛那個委員不要說挑軟的啦他可能就是說其實人性上都會希望能夠去找相對這個比較容易然後可能不要我覺得不要說挑軟的啦沒有啦這個是人性啦\n\n7\n00:02:12,202 --> 00:02:34,397\n我們我講一個我們醫界公會生包括醫師藥師這些在服務的時候他們派到偏遠地區能夠服務第二階段的他們去了之後譬如說去到部立恆春醫院然後他們去了半年甚至一年他們就可以申請轉換地方囉\n\n8\n00:02:37,324 --> 00:03:00,043\n實際上鄉村很需要人但是他就跟你說他們也有一個協會他就說你家長得不舒服院長對他不好等等他可以轉真的是可以轉他也轉成了所以這個他們能轉是他們的權利外籍的看護也好外籍勞工也好他要申請轉換\n\n9\n00:03:02,114 --> 00:03:13,846\n這個是本來他們就有這個權利的不是這個修法之後才有的所以第二個我要跟大家報告的就是說這個換僱主不是修這個法以後才可以換僱主本來他就可以換所以這不是理由啦\n\n10\n00:03:19,594 --> 00:03:40,611\n第三就是你們過了之後你們的門檻也加了很多譬如說要先上網登記一個禮拜之後沒有本國的來看負來apply你才可以開始排隊我們沒有加這不是增加的門檻這是原本就有的這是原本就有的這不是增加的\n\n11\n00:03:40,891 --> 00:04:01,293\n我在上次也有跟你執行過我說你們擔心說80歲以上可以這樣申請就可以直接申請外籍看護你會怕說會有10萬個人來申請對不對你預估啦就是健康的亞健康的我跟你說我說\n\n12\n00:04:02,779 --> 00:04:30,998\n好客好手的人沒台沒錢要請一個外籍客人來陪他那不是笑的那不爽耶那不爽耶現在大家不是在玩好鬼耶委員那是真的有這樣的案例啊才一個幾個一千多個到現在一千多個啊你再看我們再看半年看多少人我可以跟你保證最後我要跟你報告的就是說外籍的勞工來台灣做營建業做什麼業現在有七八十萬人嘛\n\n13\n00:04:32,805 --> 00:04:55,178\n製造業就是整體的這個外籍的移工加起來是這個數字那他們的薪水是比照我們的基本工資嘛對不對所以他們一戶可以拿到三萬塊如果加一半就三四萬所以他們那一戶他們的收入還不錯但是外籍看護他們的薪水多少\n\n14\n00:04:57,270 --> 00:05:18,911\n也沒有公司目前是兩萬塊以上多少兩萬塊或兩萬出頭兩萬出而已喔兩萬出喔太少了啦我跟妳報告我爸爸我媽媽都有請外籍九十幾歲那個孫子那個外籍的看護我都覺得表現得很好我是給他基本工資的\n\n15\n00:05:20,066 --> 00:05:35,480\n我給他要三萬塊所以很高興這就大家互相嘛他就顧得很認真我如果請台灣的我告訴你請台灣的各位可能請他四小時七萬塊就沒得請七萬塊沒得對不對我對你知不知道\n\n16\n00:05:40,290 --> 00:06:07,375\n對但是委員你要考慮一下可能一些就是可能要更多面向的所以我要跟你報告就是說委員這些外籍的看護19萬多20萬多21萬多這些人來台灣我感覺我們要把他們聽清楚啦當然我們要把他們聽明明啦當然你有搞好安定會你又搞什麼讓他們管吃管住你給他2萬塊\n\n17\n00:06:09,193 --> 00:06:22,326\n我也覺得很少因為日本就給4萬塊啦韓國也給4萬塊但是日本韓國給他查他沒有在分什麼外籍看護外籍勞工啦他們好像都打死都是一個價嘛是不是這樣部長你知不知道\n\n18\n00:06:26,121 --> 00:06:38,848\n他們的價格他們的薪資的價格的確是比我們高尤其他們蠻多是機構在聘請的對他們給到差不多4萬1啦對所以比我們多所以我們搶搶不贏人啊所以現在這個外籍的看護一個月薪水你會覺得太貴嗎\n\n19\n00:06:48,328 --> 00:07:15,748\n的確這個很多的這個來源母國也跟我們反映希望能夠把這個外籍的看護的薪資的下限能夠再做提高這很多來源母國也跟我們來反映有這個期待所以現在一個請一個外籍看護就是兩萬塊左右然後就安定基金繳多少就安定會繳多少每個月是兩千那一般勞工也是兩千嗎\n\n20\n00:07:17,659 --> 00:07:43,947\n那就2萬2然後管吃管住加起來差不多3萬3萬塊3萬多應該是說其實很多經濟弱勢勉強的也不少1.2萬1.2萬經濟弱勢勉強的有1.2萬那但是就是委員剛才講的這整體的這個我想外籍康護的整個制度當然我們也在持續性的在觀察也包括在部裡面在討論怎麼經濟就像我剛才說\n\n21\n00:07:44,927 --> 00:08:07,555\n其實來源的母國也一直有跟我們反應希望能夠讓這些外籍看護的薪資再提升但的確這裡面我們也在思考會有蠻多現在比方說他可能是比較弱勢的家庭他如果要請或者是他經濟收入比較沒有那麼好的可能沒有像委員這樣委員你畢竟我是自強戶對畢竟像你的經濟的水平我們都跟不上\n\n22\n00:08:12,819 --> 00:08:31,973\n那會有一些在經濟條件上可能不一定那麼好他們也是需要這個外籍的看護所以我們是綜合的評估考慮可是的確當然我們會持續的滾動來思考這些事情這個是要跟國際競爭那來源國就是這幾個國家但是我跟你報告\n\n23\n00:08:33,243 --> 00:08:53,537\n我們菲律賓人口1億,他在外面當勞工,不管是看護或者勞工,還有1000多萬人。印尼3億,差不多3億3的人口,還有很多在外面。印度14億人口,他在外面當外籍勞工的將近4000萬人。\n\n24\n00:08:54,969 --> 00:09:03,899\n所以那是很龐大的來源那我有查了一下像印尼那邊他們現在失業率滿高他們要出來的人還不少所以應該是\n\n25\n00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:30,615\n請不上欠人只不過是我們的行事外資康復沒有競爭力請不到人會不會跟委員說明第一個我們其實從1月開始以後其實就跟我們的來源母國在協商希望他們引進的數量可以再提高所以增加引進的供給量這事情是我們一直在做的這是一直在做的\n\n26\n00:09:31,115 --> 00:09:47,522\n但這裡面確實也要思考到台灣母國他們一些因為你進來要做外籍看護你有一定的訓練的能量因為這我們也不希望影響到品質所以這個我們一直在做但就像委員說的的確我們在台灣請外籍看護的薪資比方跟日韓比起來可能是差了一些\n\n27\n00:09:48,382 --> 00:10:12,252\n那我們比較不希望看到的狀況的確還是之前講的這器重可是我要跟委員說明我們並不是把器重責輕當成是目標不是我們作為一個行政部門可能要把各種可能會發生的衝擊把它思考進來然後為可能的衝擊來做因應的準備所以我們沒有辦法去想的很樂觀說一定人會很少還是怎樣\n\n28\n00:10:13,112 --> 00:10:41,387\n我們要把這個可能的挑戰再多想一些多想一些如果我有條件對於比較多的人數進來或者多的需求出現的時候來做因應的時候如果人數比較少的話我也相對比較有充裕的條件我做行政部門不能只想簡單的我們要想比較嚴峻的狀況這是我們的責任我們當然希望我們本國的照護員能夠充足啦但是我們本國照護員要求是\n\n29\n00:10:42,307 --> 00:11:11,256\n越來越高他也很會挑案子他也很會挑所以本國的照顧人員也很會挑他們的大夫很高他現在剩下點錢的事務都不錯我們衛務部我們次長在那邊他們現在一直在調高也希望我們這邊能充裕對不對所以我們台灣自己可以自己照顧老人老的照顧比較老的自己可以接受是最好\n\n30\n00:11:12,216 --> 00:11:29,785\n國務理事長請國外你就要去跟他們拚所以這是你們的套路你們的任務你們的MISSION所以你要拯救人我們絕對支持要拯救一百多個八百多個我都要支持絕對要支持到底這樣好不好謝謝委員支持好謝謝蘇星文的發言\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n189\t23297\t接著是廖偉祥委員發言等廖偉祥委員答詢完畢以後休息十分鐘齁來 蘇委員請好我今天生理有夠慢的謝謝主席那我們請部長蘇委員早部長辛苦了齁\n26800\t53876\t來 我三個問題第一個就是我們這個就會附法46條就是這個外籍看護的問題這個原有是怎麼來早上陳慶威 陳昭志委員都有提那我跟大家報告這個是2024年選總統的時候活有餘提出來的證件那這個這一個案子的起草人是誰就是我\n56419\t60166\t為什麼那個時候會停因為那個時候很多臨床醫師都非常困擾\n61499\t85358\t非常非常痛苦,因為廠長就是為了開個巴士輛票,包括我,廠長都要拜託,經常糾紛,我說覺得這不是必要,那麼就造成很多臨床醫師的困擾,也有衝突過,甚至有動手的,所以那個時候就提出來,提出來之後大家都很贊成,\n87540\t114625\t那就在去年年底就通過了嘛現在這個案子已經在公告實施了那第二個問題這個法是我是覺得是OK的啦第二個問題就是說這些外籍的看護人來台灣之後他們會挑軟的重症的沒辦法過\n115669\t131169\t是不是 我們會怕這個嘛那個委員不要說挑軟的啦他可能就是說其實人性上都會希望能夠去找相對這個比較容易然後可能不要我覺得不要說挑軟的啦沒有啦 這個是人性啦\n132202\t154397\t我們我講一個我們醫界公會生包括醫師藥師這些在服務的時候他們派到偏遠地區能夠服務第二階段的他們去了之後譬如說去到部立恆春醫院然後他們去了半年甚至一年他們就可以申請轉換地方囉\n157324\t180043\t實際上鄉村很需要人但是他就跟你說 他們也有一個協會他就說你家長得不舒服 院長對他不好等等他可以轉 真的是可以轉 他也轉成了所以這個他們能轉是他們的權利外籍的看護也好 外籍勞工也好他要申請轉換\n182114\t193846\t這個是本來他們就有這個權利的不是這個修法之後才有的所以第二個我要跟大家報告的就是說這個換僱主不是修這個法以後才可以換僱主本來他就可以換所以這不是理由啦\n199594\t220611\t第三就是你們過了之後你們的門檻也加了很多譬如說要先上網登記一個禮拜之後沒有本國的來看負來apply你才可以開始排隊我們沒有加 這不是增加的門檻這是原本就有的這是原本就有的 這不是增加的\n220891\t241293\t我在上次也有跟你執行過我說你們擔心說80歲以上可以這樣申請就可以直接申請外籍看護你會怕說會有10萬個人來申請對不對 你預估啦就是健康的 亞健康的我跟你說 我說\n242779\t270998\t好客好手的人沒台沒錢要請一個外籍客人來陪他那不是笑的那不爽耶那不爽耶現在大家不是在玩好鬼耶委員那是真的有這樣的案例啊才一個幾個一千多個到現在一千多個啊你再看我們再看半年看多少人我可以跟你保證最後我要跟你報告的就是說外籍的勞工來台灣做營建業做什麼業現在有七八十萬人嘛\n272805\t295178\t製造業就是整體的這個外籍的移工加起來是這個數字那他們的薪水是比照我們的基本工資嘛 對不對所以他們一戶可以拿到三萬塊如果加一半就三四萬所以他們那一戶他們的收入還不錯但是外籍看護他們的薪水多少\n297270\t318911\t也沒有公司 目前是兩萬塊以上多少 兩萬塊或兩萬出頭兩萬出而已喔兩萬出喔 太少了啦我跟妳報告我爸爸我媽媽都有請外籍九十幾歲 那個孫子那個外籍的看護我都覺得表現得很好我是給他基本工資的\n320066\t335480\t我給他要三萬塊所以很高興這就大家互相嘛他就顧得很認真我如果請台灣的我告訴你請台灣的各位可能請他四小時七萬塊就沒得請七萬塊沒得對不對我對你知不知道\n340290\t367375\t對 但是委員你要考慮一下可能一些就是可能要更多面向的所以我要跟你報告就是說委員這些外籍的看護19萬多 20萬多 21萬多這些人來台灣我感覺我們要把他們聽清楚啦當然我們要把他們聽明明啦當然你有搞好安定會你又搞什麼讓他們管吃管住你給他2萬塊\n369193\t382326\t我也覺得很少 因為日本就給4萬塊啦韓國也給4萬塊 但是日本 韓國給他查他沒有在分什麼外籍看護 外籍勞工啦他們好像都打死都是一個價嘛 是不是這樣 部長你知不知道\n386121\t398848\t他們的價格 他們的薪資的價格的確是比我們高尤其他們蠻多是機構在聘請的對 他們給到差不多4萬1啦對所以比我們多所以我們搶 搶不贏人啊所以現在這個外籍的看護一個月薪水你會覺得太貴嗎\n408328\t435748\t的確這個很多的這個來源母國也跟我們反映希望能夠把這個外籍的看護的薪資的下限能夠再做提高這很多來源母國也跟我們來反映有這個期待所以現在一個請一個外籍看護就是兩萬塊左右然後就安定基金繳多少就安定會繳多少每個月是兩千那一般勞工也是兩千嗎\n437659\t463947\t那就2萬2然後管吃管住加起來差不多3萬3萬塊3萬多應該是說其實很多經濟弱勢勉強的也不少1.2萬1.2萬經濟弱勢勉強的有1.2萬那但是就是委員剛才講的這整體的這個我想外籍康護的整個制度當然我們也在持續性的在觀察也包括在部裡面在討論怎麼經濟就像我剛才說\n464927\t487555\t其實來源的母國也一直有跟我們反應希望能夠讓這些外籍看護的薪資再提升但的確這裡面我們也在思考會有蠻多現在比方說他可能是比較弱勢的家庭他如果要請或者是他經濟收入比較沒有那麼好的可能沒有像委員這樣委員你畢竟我是自強戶對 畢竟像你的經濟的水平我們都跟不上\n492819\t511973\t那會有一些在經濟條件上可能不一定那麼好他們也是需要這個外籍的看護所以我們是綜合的評估考慮可是的確當然我們會持續的滾動來思考這些事情這個是要跟國際競爭那來源國就是這幾個國家但是我跟你報告\n513243\t533537\t我們菲律賓人口1億,他在外面當勞工,不管是看護或者勞工,還有1000多萬人。印尼3億,差不多3億3的人口,還有很多在外面。印度14億人口,他在外面當外籍勞工的將近4000萬人。\n534969\t543899\t所以那是很龐大的來源那我有查了一下像印尼那邊他們現在失業率滿高他們要出來的人還不少所以應該是\n547280\t570615\t請不上欠人只不過是我們的行事外資康復沒有競爭力請不到人會不會跟委員說明第一個我們其實從1月開始以後其實就跟我們的來源母國在協商希望他們引進的數量可以再提高所以增加引進的供給量這事情是我們一直在做的這是一直在做的\n571115\t587522\t但這裡面確實也要思考到台灣母國他們一些因為你進來要做外籍看護你有一定的訓練的能量因為這我們也不希望影響到品質所以這個我們一直在做但就像委員說的的確我們在台灣請外籍看護的薪資比方跟日韓比起來可能是差了一些\n588382\t612252\t那我們比較不希望看到的狀況的確還是之前講的這器重 可是我要跟委員說明我們並不是把器重責輕當成是目標 不是我們作為一個行政部門可能要把各種可能會發生的衝擊把它思考進來然後為可能的衝擊來做因應的準備所以我們沒有辦法去想的很樂觀說一定人會很少還是怎樣\n613112\t641387\t我們要把這個可能的挑戰再多想一些多想一些如果我有條件對於比較多的人數進來或者多的需求出現的時候來做因應的時候如果人數比較少的話我也相對比較有充裕的條件我做行政部門不能只想簡單的我們要想比較嚴峻的狀況這是我們的責任我們當然希望我們本國的照護員能夠充足啦但是我們本國照護員要求是\n642307\t671256\t越來越高他也很會挑案子他也很會挑所以本國的照顧人員也很會挑他們的大夫很高他現在剩下點錢的事務都不錯我們衛務部我們次長在那邊他們現在一直在調高也希望我們這邊能充裕 對不對所以我們台灣自己可以自己照顧老人老的照顧比較老的自己可以接受是最好\n672216\t689785\t國務理事長請國外 你就要去跟他們拚所以這是你們的套路你們的任務 你們的MISSION所以你要拯救人 我們絕對支持要拯救一百多個 八百多個 我都要支持絕對要支持到底 這樣好不好謝謝委員支持好 謝謝蘇星文的發言\n","txt":"接著是廖偉祥委員發言等廖偉祥委員答詢完畢以後休息十分鐘齁來 蘇委員請好我今天生理有夠慢的謝謝主席那我們請部長蘇委員早部長辛苦了齁\n來 我三個問題第一個就是我們這個就會附法46條就是這個外籍看護的問題這個原有是怎麼來早上陳慶威 陳昭志委員都有提那我跟大家報告這個是2024年選總統的時候活有餘提出來的證件那這個這一個案子的起草人是誰就是我\n為什麼那個時候會停因為那個時候很多臨床醫師都非常困擾\n非常非常痛苦,因為廠長就是為了開個巴士輛票,包括我,廠長都要拜託,經常糾紛,我說覺得這不是必要,那麼就造成很多臨床醫師的困擾,也有衝突過,甚至有動手的,所以那個時候就提出來,提出來之後大家都很贊成,\n那就在去年年底就通過了嘛現在這個案子已經在公告實施了那第二個問題這個法是我是覺得是OK的啦第二個問題就是說這些外籍的看護人來台灣之後他們會挑軟的重症的沒辦法過\n是不是 我們會怕這個嘛那個委員不要說挑軟的啦他可能就是說其實人性上都會希望能夠去找相對這個比較容易然後可能不要我覺得不要說挑軟的啦沒有啦 這個是人性啦\n我們我講一個我們醫界公會生包括醫師藥師這些在服務的時候他們派到偏遠地區能夠服務第二階段的他們去了之後譬如說去到部立恆春醫院然後他們去了半年甚至一年他們就可以申請轉換地方囉\n實際上鄉村很需要人但是他就跟你說 他們也有一個協會他就說你家長得不舒服 院長對他不好等等他可以轉 真的是可以轉 他也轉成了所以這個他們能轉是他們的權利外籍的看護也好 外籍勞工也好他要申請轉換\n這個是本來他們就有這個權利的不是這個修法之後才有的所以第二個我要跟大家報告的就是說這個換僱主不是修這個法以後才可以換僱主本來他就可以換所以這不是理由啦\n第三就是你們過了之後你們的門檻也加了很多譬如說要先上網登記一個禮拜之後沒有本國的來看負來apply你才可以開始排隊我們沒有加 這不是增加的門檻這是原本就有的這是原本就有的 這不是增加的\n我在上次也有跟你執行過我說你們擔心說80歲以上可以這樣申請就可以直接申請外籍看護你會怕說會有10萬個人來申請對不對 你預估啦就是健康的 亞健康的我跟你說 我說\n好客好手的人沒台沒錢要請一個外籍客人來陪他那不是笑的那不爽耶那不爽耶現在大家不是在玩好鬼耶委員那是真的有這樣的案例啊才一個幾個一千多個到現在一千多個啊你再看我們再看半年看多少人我可以跟你保證最後我要跟你報告的就是說外籍的勞工來台灣做營建業做什麼業現在有七八十萬人嘛\n製造業就是整體的這個外籍的移工加起來是這個數字那他們的薪水是比照我們的基本工資嘛 對不對所以他們一戶可以拿到三萬塊如果加一半就三四萬所以他們那一戶他們的收入還不錯但是外籍看護他們的薪水多少\n也沒有公司 目前是兩萬塊以上多少 兩萬塊或兩萬出頭兩萬出而已喔兩萬出喔 太少了啦我跟妳報告我爸爸我媽媽都有請外籍九十幾歲 那個孫子那個外籍的看護我都覺得表現得很好我是給他基本工資的\n我給他要三萬塊所以很高興這就大家互相嘛他就顧得很認真我如果請台灣的我告訴你請台灣的各位可能請他四小時七萬塊就沒得請七萬塊沒得對不對我對你知不知道\n對 但是委員你要考慮一下可能一些就是可能要更多面向的所以我要跟你報告就是說委員這些外籍的看護19萬多 20萬多 21萬多這些人來台灣我感覺我們要把他們聽清楚啦當然我們要把他們聽明明啦當然你有搞好安定會你又搞什麼讓他們管吃管住你給他2萬塊\n我也覺得很少 因為日本就給4萬塊啦韓國也給4萬塊 但是日本 韓國給他查他沒有在分什麼外籍看護 外籍勞工啦他們好像都打死都是一個價嘛 是不是這樣 部長你知不知道\n他們的價格 他們的薪資的價格的確是比我們高尤其他們蠻多是機構在聘請的對 他們給到差不多4萬1啦對所以比我們多所以我們搶 搶不贏人啊所以現在這個外籍的看護一個月薪水你會覺得太貴嗎\n的確這個很多的這個來源母國也跟我們反映希望能夠把這個外籍的看護的薪資的下限能夠再做提高這很多來源母國也跟我們來反映有這個期待所以現在一個請一個外籍看護就是兩萬塊左右然後就安定基金繳多少就安定會繳多少每個月是兩千那一般勞工也是兩千嗎\n那就2萬2然後管吃管住加起來差不多3萬3萬塊3萬多應該是說其實很多經濟弱勢勉強的也不少1.2萬1.2萬經濟弱勢勉強的有1.2萬那但是就是委員剛才講的這整體的這個我想外籍康護的整個制度當然我們也在持續性的在觀察也包括在部裡面在討論怎麼經濟就像我剛才說\n其實來源的母國也一直有跟我們反應希望能夠讓這些外籍看護的薪資再提升但的確這裡面我們也在思考會有蠻多現在比方說他可能是比較弱勢的家庭他如果要請或者是他經濟收入比較沒有那麼好的可能沒有像委員這樣委員你畢竟我是自強戶對 畢竟像你的經濟的水平我們都跟不上\n那會有一些在經濟條件上可能不一定那麼好他們也是需要這個外籍的看護所以我們是綜合的評估考慮可是的確當然我們會持續的滾動來思考這些事情這個是要跟國際競爭那來源國就是這幾個國家但是我跟你報告\n我們菲律賓人口1億,他在外面當勞工,不管是看護或者勞工,還有1000多萬人。印尼3億,差不多3億3的人口,還有很多在外面。印度14億人口,他在外面當外籍勞工的將近4000萬人。\n所以那是很龐大的來源那我有查了一下像印尼那邊他們現在失業率滿高他們要出來的人還不少所以應該是\n請不上欠人只不過是我們的行事外資康復沒有競爭力請不到人會不會跟委員說明第一個我們其實從1月開始以後其實就跟我們的來源母國在協商希望他們引進的數量可以再提高所以增加引進的供給量這事情是我們一直在做的這是一直在做的\n但這裡面確實也要思考到台灣母國他們一些因為你進來要做外籍看護你有一定的訓練的能量因為這我們也不希望影響到品質所以這個我們一直在做但就像委員說的的確我們在台灣請外籍看護的薪資比方跟日韓比起來可能是差了一些\n那我們比較不希望看到的狀況的確還是之前講的這器重 可是我要跟委員說明我們並不是把器重責輕當成是目標 不是我們作為一個行政部門可能要把各種可能會發生的衝擊把它思考進來然後為可能的衝擊來做因應的準備所以我們沒有辦法去想的很樂觀說一定人會很少還是怎樣\n我們要把這個可能的挑戰再多想一些多想一些如果我有條件對於比較多的人數進來或者多的需求出現的時候來做因應的時候如果人數比較少的話我也相對比較有充裕的條件我做行政部門不能只想簡單的我們要想比較嚴峻的狀況這是我們的責任我們當然希望我們本國的照護員能夠充足啦但是我們本國照護員要求是\n越來越高他也很會挑案子他也很會挑所以本國的照顧人員也很會挑他們的大夫很高他現在剩下點錢的事務都不錯我們衛務部我們次長在那邊他們現在一直在調高也希望我們這邊能充裕 對不對所以我們台灣自己可以自己照顧老人老的照顧比較老的自己可以接受是最好\n國務理事長請國外 你就要去跟他們拚所以這是你們的套路你們的任務 你們的MISSION所以你要拯救人 我們絕對支持要拯救一百多個 八百多個 我都要支持絕對要支持到底 這樣好不好謝謝委員支持好 謝謝蘇星文的發言\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.189 --> 00:23.297\n接著是廖偉祥委員發言等廖偉祥委員答詢完畢以後休息十分鐘齁來蘇委員請好我今天生理有夠慢的謝謝主席那我們請部長蘇委員早部長辛苦了齁\n\n00:26.800 --> 00:53.876\n來我三個問題第一個就是我們這個就會附法46條就是這個外籍看護的問題這個原有是怎麼來早上陳慶威陳昭志委員都有提那我跟大家報告這個是2024年選總統的時候活有餘提出來的證件那這個這一個案子的起草人是誰就是我\n\n00:56.419 --> 01:00.166\n為什麼那個時候會停因為那個時候很多臨床醫師都非常困擾\n\n01:01.499 --> 01:25.358\n非常非常痛苦,因為廠長就是為了開個巴士輛票,包括我,廠長都要拜託,經常糾紛,我說覺得這不是必要,那麼就造成很多臨床醫師的困擾,也有衝突過,甚至有動手的,所以那個時候就提出來,提出來之後大家都很贊成,\n\n01:27.540 --> 01:54.625\n那就在去年年底就通過了嘛現在這個案子已經在公告實施了那第二個問題這個法是我是覺得是OK的啦第二個問題就是說這些外籍的看護人來台灣之後他們會挑軟的重症的沒辦法過\n\n01:55.669 --> 02:11.169\n是不是我們會怕這個嘛那個委員不要說挑軟的啦他可能就是說其實人性上都會希望能夠去找相對這個比較容易然後可能不要我覺得不要說挑軟的啦沒有啦這個是人性啦\n\n02:12.202 --> 02:34.397\n我們我講一個我們醫界公會生包括醫師藥師這些在服務的時候他們派到偏遠地區能夠服務第二階段的他們去了之後譬如說去到部立恆春醫院然後他們去了半年甚至一年他們就可以申請轉換地方囉\n\n02:37.324 --> 03:00.043\n實際上鄉村很需要人但是他就跟你說他們也有一個協會他就說你家長得不舒服院長對他不好等等他可以轉真的是可以轉他也轉成了所以這個他們能轉是他們的權利外籍的看護也好外籍勞工也好他要申請轉換\n\n03:02.114 --> 03:13.846\n這個是本來他們就有這個權利的不是這個修法之後才有的所以第二個我要跟大家報告的就是說這個換僱主不是修這個法以後才可以換僱主本來他就可以換所以這不是理由啦\n\n03:19.594 --> 03:40.611\n第三就是你們過了之後你們的門檻也加了很多譬如說要先上網登記一個禮拜之後沒有本國的來看負來apply你才可以開始排隊我們沒有加這不是增加的門檻這是原本就有的這是原本就有的這不是增加的\n\n03:40.891 --> 04:01.293\n我在上次也有跟你執行過我說你們擔心說80歲以上可以這樣申請就可以直接申請外籍看護你會怕說會有10萬個人來申請對不對你預估啦就是健康的亞健康的我跟你說我說\n\n04:02.779 --> 04:30.998\n好客好手的人沒台沒錢要請一個外籍客人來陪他那不是笑的那不爽耶那不爽耶現在大家不是在玩好鬼耶委員那是真的有這樣的案例啊才一個幾個一千多個到現在一千多個啊你再看我們再看半年看多少人我可以跟你保證最後我要跟你報告的就是說外籍的勞工來台灣做營建業做什麼業現在有七八十萬人嘛\n\n04:32.805 --> 04:55.178\n製造業就是整體的這個外籍的移工加起來是這個數字那他們的薪水是比照我們的基本工資嘛對不對所以他們一戶可以拿到三萬塊如果加一半就三四萬所以他們那一戶他們的收入還不錯但是外籍看護他們的薪水多少\n\n04:57.270 --> 05:18.911\n也沒有公司目前是兩萬塊以上多少兩萬塊或兩萬出頭兩萬出而已喔兩萬出喔太少了啦我跟妳報告我爸爸我媽媽都有請外籍九十幾歲那個孫子那個外籍的看護我都覺得表現得很好我是給他基本工資的\n\n05:20.066 --> 05:35.480\n我給他要三萬塊所以很高興這就大家互相嘛他就顧得很認真我如果請台灣的我告訴你請台灣的各位可能請他四小時七萬塊就沒得請七萬塊沒得對不對我對你知不知道\n\n05:40.290 --> 06:07.375\n對但是委員你要考慮一下可能一些就是可能要更多面向的所以我要跟你報告就是說委員這些外籍的看護19萬多20萬多21萬多這些人來台灣我感覺我們要把他們聽清楚啦當然我們要把他們聽明明啦當然你有搞好安定會你又搞什麼讓他們管吃管住你給他2萬塊\n\n06:09.193 --> 06:22.326\n我也覺得很少因為日本就給4萬塊啦韓國也給4萬塊但是日本韓國給他查他沒有在分什麼外籍看護外籍勞工啦他們好像都打死都是一個價嘛是不是這樣部長你知不知道\n\n06:26.121 --> 06:38.848\n他們的價格他們的薪資的價格的確是比我們高尤其他們蠻多是機構在聘請的對他們給到差不多4萬1啦對所以比我們多所以我們搶搶不贏人啊所以現在這個外籍的看護一個月薪水你會覺得太貴嗎\n\n06:48.328 --> 07:15.748\n的確這個很多的這個來源母國也跟我們反映希望能夠把這個外籍的看護的薪資的下限能夠再做提高這很多來源母國也跟我們來反映有這個期待所以現在一個請一個外籍看護就是兩萬塊左右然後就安定基金繳多少就安定會繳多少每個月是兩千那一般勞工也是兩千嗎\n\n07:17.659 --> 07:43.947\n那就2萬2然後管吃管住加起來差不多3萬3萬塊3萬多應該是說其實很多經濟弱勢勉強的也不少1.2萬1.2萬經濟弱勢勉強的有1.2萬那但是就是委員剛才講的這整體的這個我想外籍康護的整個制度當然我們也在持續性的在觀察也包括在部裡面在討論怎麼經濟就像我剛才說\n\n07:44.927 --> 08:07.555\n其實來源的母國也一直有跟我們反應希望能夠讓這些外籍看護的薪資再提升但的確這裡面我們也在思考會有蠻多現在比方說他可能是比較弱勢的家庭他如果要請或者是他經濟收入比較沒有那麼好的可能沒有像委員這樣委員你畢竟我是自強戶對畢竟像你的經濟的水平我們都跟不上\n\n08:12.819 --> 08:31.973\n那會有一些在經濟條件上可能不一定那麼好他們也是需要這個外籍的看護所以我們是綜合的評估考慮可是的確當然我們會持續的滾動來思考這些事情這個是要跟國際競爭那來源國就是這幾個國家但是我跟你報告\n\n08:33.243 --> 08:53.537\n我們菲律賓人口1億,他在外面當勞工,不管是看護或者勞工,還有1000多萬人。印尼3億,差不多3億3的人口,還有很多在外面。印度14億人口,他在外面當外籍勞工的將近4000萬人。\n\n08:54.969 --> 09:03.899\n所以那是很龐大的來源那我有查了一下像印尼那邊他們現在失業率滿高他們要出來的人還不少所以應該是\n\n09:07.280 --> 09:30.615\n請不上欠人只不過是我們的行事外資康復沒有競爭力請不到人會不會跟委員說明第一個我們其實從1月開始以後其實就跟我們的來源母國在協商希望他們引進的數量可以再提高所以增加引進的供給量這事情是我們一直在做的這是一直在做的\n\n09:31.115 --> 09:47.522\n但這裡面確實也要思考到台灣母國他們一些因為你進來要做外籍看護你有一定的訓練的能量因為這我們也不希望影響到品質所以這個我們一直在做但就像委員說的的確我們在台灣請外籍看護的薪資比方跟日韓比起來可能是差了一些\n\n09:48.382 --> 10:12.252\n那我們比較不希望看到的狀況的確還是之前講的這器重可是我要跟委員說明我們並不是把器重責輕當成是目標不是我們作為一個行政部門可能要把各種可能會發生的衝擊把它思考進來然後為可能的衝擊來做因應的準備所以我們沒有辦法去想的很樂觀說一定人會很少還是怎樣\n\n10:13.112 --> 10:41.387\n我們要把這個可能的挑戰再多想一些多想一些如果我有條件對於比較多的人數進來或者多的需求出現的時候來做因應的時候如果人數比較少的話我也相對比較有充裕的條件我做行政部門不能只想簡單的我們要想比較嚴峻的狀況這是我們的責任我們當然希望我們本國的照護員能夠充足啦但是我們本國照護員要求是\n\n10:42.307 --> 11:11.256\n越來越高他也很會挑案子他也很會挑所以本國的照顧人員也很會挑他們的大夫很高他現在剩下點錢的事務都不錯我們衛務部我們次長在那邊他們現在一直在調高也希望我們這邊能充裕對不對所以我們台灣自己可以自己照顧老人老的照顧比較老的自己可以接受是最好\n\n11:12.216 --> 11:29.785\n國務理事長請國外你就要去跟他們拚所以這是你們的套路你們的任務你們的MISSION所以你要拯救人我們絕對支持要拯救一百多個八百多個我都要支持絕對要支持到底這樣好不好謝謝委員支持好謝謝蘇星文的發言\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.189,"end":23.297,"text":"接著是廖偉祥委員發言等廖偉祥委員答詢完畢以後休息十分鐘齁來 蘇委員請好我今天生理有夠慢的謝謝主席那我們請部長蘇委員早部長辛苦了齁"},{"start":26.8,"end":53.876,"text":"來 我三個問題第一個就是我們這個就會附法46條就是這個外籍看護的問題這個原有是怎麼來早上陳慶威 陳昭志委員都有提那我跟大家報告這個是2024年選總統的時候活有餘提出來的證件那這個這一個案子的起草人是誰就是我"},{"start":56.419,"end":60.166,"text":"為什麼那個時候會停因為那個時候很多臨床醫師都非常困擾"},{"start":61.499,"end":85.358,"text":"非常非常痛苦,因為廠長就是為了開個巴士輛票,包括我,廠長都要拜託,經常糾紛,我說覺得這不是必要,那麼就造成很多臨床醫師的困擾,也有衝突過,甚至有動手的,所以那個時候就提出來,提出來之後大家都很贊成,"},{"start":87.54,"end":114.625,"text":"那就在去年年底就通過了嘛現在這個案子已經在公告實施了那第二個問題這個法是我是覺得是OK的啦第二個問題就是說這些外籍的看護人來台灣之後他們會挑軟的重症的沒辦法過"},{"start":115.669,"end":131.169,"text":"是不是 我們會怕這個嘛那個委員不要說挑軟的啦他可能就是說其實人性上都會希望能夠去找相對這個比較容易然後可能不要我覺得不要說挑軟的啦沒有啦 這個是人性啦"},{"start":132.202,"end":154.397,"text":"我們我講一個我們醫界公會生包括醫師藥師這些在服務的時候他們派到偏遠地區能夠服務第二階段的他們去了之後譬如說去到部立恆春醫院然後他們去了半年甚至一年他們就可以申請轉換地方囉"},{"start":157.324,"end":180.043,"text":"實際上鄉村很需要人但是他就跟你說 他們也有一個協會他就說你家長得不舒服 院長對他不好等等他可以轉 真的是可以轉 他也轉成了所以這個他們能轉是他們的權利外籍的看護也好 外籍勞工也好他要申請轉換"},{"start":182.114,"end":193.846,"text":"這個是本來他們就有這個權利的不是這個修法之後才有的所以第二個我要跟大家報告的就是說這個換僱主不是修這個法以後才可以換僱主本來他就可以換所以這不是理由啦"},{"start":199.594,"end":220.611,"text":"第三就是你們過了之後你們的門檻也加了很多譬如說要先上網登記一個禮拜之後沒有本國的來看負來apply你才可以開始排隊我們沒有加 這不是增加的門檻這是原本就有的這是原本就有的 這不是增加的"},{"start":220.891,"end":241.293,"text":"我在上次也有跟你執行過我說你們擔心說80歲以上可以這樣申請就可以直接申請外籍看護你會怕說會有10萬個人來申請對不對 你預估啦就是健康的 亞健康的我跟你說 我說"},{"start":242.779,"end":270.998,"text":"好客好手的人沒台沒錢要請一個外籍客人來陪他那不是笑的那不爽耶那不爽耶現在大家不是在玩好鬼耶委員那是真的有這樣的案例啊才一個幾個一千多個到現在一千多個啊你再看我們再看半年看多少人我可以跟你保證最後我要跟你報告的就是說外籍的勞工來台灣做營建業做什麼業現在有七八十萬人嘛"},{"start":272.805,"end":295.178,"text":"製造業就是整體的這個外籍的移工加起來是這個數字那他們的薪水是比照我們的基本工資嘛 對不對所以他們一戶可以拿到三萬塊如果加一半就三四萬所以他們那一戶他們的收入還不錯但是外籍看護他們的薪水多少"},{"start":297.27,"end":318.911,"text":"也沒有公司 目前是兩萬塊以上多少 兩萬塊或兩萬出頭兩萬出而已喔兩萬出喔 太少了啦我跟妳報告我爸爸我媽媽都有請外籍九十幾歲 那個孫子那個外籍的看護我都覺得表現得很好我是給他基本工資的"},{"start":320.066,"end":335.48,"text":"我給他要三萬塊所以很高興這就大家互相嘛他就顧得很認真我如果請台灣的我告訴你請台灣的各位可能請他四小時七萬塊就沒得請七萬塊沒得對不對我對你知不知道"},{"start":340.29,"end":367.375,"text":"對 但是委員你要考慮一下可能一些就是可能要更多面向的所以我要跟你報告就是說委員這些外籍的看護19萬多 20萬多 21萬多這些人來台灣我感覺我們要把他們聽清楚啦當然我們要把他們聽明明啦當然你有搞好安定會你又搞什麼讓他們管吃管住你給他2萬塊"},{"start":369.193,"end":382.326,"text":"我也覺得很少 因為日本就給4萬塊啦韓國也給4萬塊 但是日本 韓國給他查他沒有在分什麼外籍看護 外籍勞工啦他們好像都打死都是一個價嘛 是不是這樣 部長你知不知道"},{"start":386.121,"end":398.848,"text":"他們的價格 他們的薪資的價格的確是比我們高尤其他們蠻多是機構在聘請的對 他們給到差不多4萬1啦對所以比我們多所以我們搶 搶不贏人啊所以現在這個外籍的看護一個月薪水你會覺得太貴嗎"},{"start":408.328,"end":435.748,"text":"的確這個很多的這個來源母國也跟我們反映希望能夠把這個外籍的看護的薪資的下限能夠再做提高這很多來源母國也跟我們來反映有這個期待所以現在一個請一個外籍看護就是兩萬塊左右然後就安定基金繳多少就安定會繳多少每個月是兩千那一般勞工也是兩千嗎"},{"start":437.659,"end":463.947,"text":"那就2萬2然後管吃管住加起來差不多3萬3萬塊3萬多應該是說其實很多經濟弱勢勉強的也不少1.2萬1.2萬經濟弱勢勉強的有1.2萬那但是就是委員剛才講的這整體的這個我想外籍康護的整個制度當然我們也在持續性的在觀察也包括在部裡面在討論怎麼經濟就像我剛才說"},{"start":464.927,"end":487.555,"text":"其實來源的母國也一直有跟我們反應希望能夠讓這些外籍看護的薪資再提升但的確這裡面我們也在思考會有蠻多現在比方說他可能是比較弱勢的家庭他如果要請或者是他經濟收入比較沒有那麼好的可能沒有像委員這樣委員你畢竟我是自強戶對 畢竟像你的經濟的水平我們都跟不上"},{"start":492.819,"end":511.973,"text":"那會有一些在經濟條件上可能不一定那麼好他們也是需要這個外籍的看護所以我們是綜合的評估考慮可是的確當然我們會持續的滾動來思考這些事情這個是要跟國際競爭那來源國就是這幾個國家但是我跟你報告"},{"start":513.243,"end":533.537,"text":"我們菲律賓人口1億,他在外面當勞工,不管是看護或者勞工,還有1000多萬人。印尼3億,差不多3億3的人口,還有很多在外面。印度14億人口,他在外面當外籍勞工的將近4000萬人。"},{"start":534.969,"end":543.899,"text":"所以那是很龐大的來源那我有查了一下像印尼那邊他們現在失業率滿高他們要出來的人還不少所以應該是"},{"start":547.28,"end":570.615,"text":"請不上欠人只不過是我們的行事外資康復沒有競爭力請不到人會不會跟委員說明第一個我們其實從1月開始以後其實就跟我們的來源母國在協商希望他們引進的數量可以再提高所以增加引進的供給量這事情是我們一直在做的這是一直在做的"},{"start":571.115,"end":587.522,"text":"但這裡面確實也要思考到台灣母國他們一些因為你進來要做外籍看護你有一定的訓練的能量因為這我們也不希望影響到品質所以這個我們一直在做但就像委員說的的確我們在台灣請外籍看護的薪資比方跟日韓比起來可能是差了一些"},{"start":588.382,"end":612.252,"text":"那我們比較不希望看到的狀況的確還是之前講的這器重 可是我要跟委員說明我們並不是把器重責輕當成是目標 不是我們作為一個行政部門可能要把各種可能會發生的衝擊把它思考進來然後為可能的衝擊來做因應的準備所以我們沒有辦法去想的很樂觀說一定人會很少還是怎樣"},{"start":613.112,"end":641.387,"text":"我們要把這個可能的挑戰再多想一些多想一些如果我有條件對於比較多的人數進來或者多的需求出現的時候來做因應的時候如果人數比較少的話我也相對比較有充裕的條件我做行政部門不能只想簡單的我們要想比較嚴峻的狀況這是我們的責任我們當然希望我們本國的照護員能夠充足啦但是我們本國照護員要求是"},{"start":642.307,"end":671.256,"text":"越來越高他也很會挑案子他也很會挑所以本國的照顧人員也很會挑他們的大夫很高他現在剩下點錢的事務都不錯我們衛務部我們次長在那邊他們現在一直在調高也希望我們這邊能充裕 對不對所以我們台灣自己可以自己照顧老人老的照顧比較老的自己可以接受是最好"},{"start":672.216,"end":689.785,"text":"國務理事長請國外 你就要去跟他們拚所以這是你們的套路你們的任務 你們的MISSION所以你要拯救人 我們絕對支持要拯救一百多個 八百多個 我都要支持絕對要支持到底 這樣好不好謝謝委員支持好 謝謝蘇星文的發言"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":435,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（10時19分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：蘇委員早。"],["蘇委員清泉：早，部長辛苦了。我有三個問題，第一個是有關就業服務法第四十六條，就是外籍看護的問題，這個緣由是怎麼來的，早上陳菁徽、陳昭姿委員都有提，我跟大家報告，這個是2024年選總統的時候，侯友宜提出來的政見。這一個案子的起草案人是誰？就是我，為什麼那個時候會提呢？因為那個時候很多臨床醫師都非常困擾，非常非常痛苦，常常就是為了開個巴氏量表，包括我，常常都被拜託，常常有糾紛，有時候會覺得有這個必要嗎？造成很多臨床醫師的困擾，也有衝突過，甚至有動手的，所以那個時候就提出來，提出來後大家都很贊成，在去年年底就通過了，現在這個案子也已經公告實施了。這個法我覺得是OK的。第二個問題是，這些外籍的看護來臺灣之後，他們會挑軟的，重症的他不願意去顧，我們會怕這個嘛！是不是？"],["洪部長申翰：委員不要說挑軟的啦！其實人性上都會希望能夠去找相對比較容易，然後……我覺得不要說挑軟的啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：沒有啦！這個是人性啦！我講一個，我們醫界的公費生，包括醫師、藥師，這些人在服務的時候，他們被派到偏遠地區服務第二階段的，譬如去到部立恆春醫院，他們去了半年，甚至一年，他們就可以申請轉換地方。實際上恆春很需要人，但是他就跟你說，他們也有一個協會，他就說在那裡住得不舒服、院長對他不好等等，所以他可以轉，真的可以轉，他也轉成了，所以他們能轉換是他們的權利啦啊！外籍看護也好，外籍勞工也好，他要申請轉換，這個是他們本來就有的權利，不是這個修法之後才有的，所以第二個我要跟大家報告的就是，換雇主不是修這個法以後才可以換雇主，本來他就可以換，所以這不是理由啦！","第三，修法過了之後，你們的門檻也加了很多，譬如要先上網登記，一個禮拜之後沒有本國看護來apply，你才可以開始排隊……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我們沒有加，這不是增加的門檻，這是原本就有的。"],["蘇委員清泉：原本就有？"],["洪部長申翰：這是原本就有的，這不是增加的。"],["蘇委員清泉：我在上次也有跟你質詢過，你們擔心80歲以上就可以直接申請外籍看護，你們怕說會有10萬人來apply，對不對？你的預估啦！"],["洪部長申翰：就是健康的、亞健康的。"],["蘇委員清泉：我有跟你說，好手好腳的人無緣無故要請一個外籍看護來陪他，他是瘋了嗎？那不便宜耶！不便宜耶！現在大家也不是很好過。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，但是真的有這樣的案例啊！"],["蘇委員清泉：幾個？到現在才一千多個，我們再看半年會有多少人，我可以跟你保證。最後我要跟你報告的就是，外籍的勞工來臺灣做營建業或其他行業的現有七、八十萬人嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：製造業，就是整體的外籍移工加起來是這個數字。"],["蘇委員清泉：對，他們的薪水是比照我們的基本工資，對不對？所以他們一個月可以領到3萬塊，如果再加班就有3萬、4萬了，所以那部分他們的收入還不錯，但是外籍看護的薪水多少？也沒有工時……"],["洪部長申翰：目前是兩萬塊以上。"],["蘇委員清泉：多少？一、兩萬？"],["洪部長申翰：兩萬塊或兩萬出頭。"],["蘇委員清泉：兩萬初而已，太少了啦！我跟你報告，我爸爸、媽媽都有請外籍看護，當時九十幾歲，我都覺得外籍看護的表現很好，我給他基本工資將近3萬塊，所以他很高興，這就是大家互相，所以他照顧得很認真，我如果請臺灣的看護顧24小時，一個月可能7萬塊都找不到人，對不對？部長，你知不知道？"],["洪部長申翰：對，但是委員，你要考慮一下，可能要更多面向的……"],["蘇委員清泉：所以我要跟你報告的就是，這些十九萬多、二十萬多、二十一萬多的外籍看護來到臺灣，我覺得我們要疼惜人家。"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們對人家要「疼命命」。"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["蘇委員清泉：你有繳交就業安定費還管吃、管住，你給他2萬塊，我也覺得很少，因為日本就給4萬塊，韓國也給4萬塊，但是查一下日本、韓國，他們沒有在分什麼外籍看護、外籍勞工，他們好像打死都是一個價，是不是這樣？部長，你知不知道？"],["洪部長申翰：他們薪資的價格的確是比我們高，尤其他們蠻多是機構在聘請的。"],["蘇委員清泉：對，他們給到差不多四萬一。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：比我們多，所以我們搶不贏人家，所以你會覺得現在外籍看護一個月薪水太低嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：的確，很多來源母國也跟我們反映，希望能夠把外籍看護薪資的下限再提高，很多來源母國也跟我們反映有這個期待。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以現在請一個外籍看護就是兩萬塊左右，就業安定費繳多少？3,000塊？"],["洪部長申翰：每個月是2,000。"],["蘇委員清泉：2,000，那一般勞工也是2,000嗎？那就是二萬二，然後管吃管住，加起來差不多三萬多？"],["洪部長申翰：應該是說其實很多經濟弱勢免繳的也不少啦，經濟弱勢免繳的有1.2萬。但是就像委員剛才講的，整體的外籍看護制度，當然我們也持續在觀察，包括部裡面也在討論怎麼精進。就像我剛才說，其實來源母國也一直有跟我反映，希望能夠讓這些外籍看護的薪資再提升。但的確這裡面我們也在思考，比方現在會有蠻多可能是比較弱勢的家庭，他如果要請或者是他的經濟收入比較沒有那麼好，可能沒有像委員這樣啦，委員，你畢竟……"],["蘇委員清泉：我是自強戶。"],["洪部長申翰：對、對、對，畢竟像你的經濟水平，我們都跟不上……"],["蘇委員清泉：不、不，我是剛脫貧……"],["洪部長申翰：也會有一些在經濟條件上可能不一定那麼好，但他們也是需要外籍看護，所以我們是綜合評估考慮，可是的確我們會持續滾動思考這些事情。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，這要跟國際競爭啦，來源國就是這幾個國家，但是我跟你報告，菲律賓人口1億，在外面不管是看護或者勞工有一千多萬人；印尼有三億三的人口，也有很多人在外面；印度14億人口，在外面當外籍勞工的有將近4,000萬人，所以那是很龐大的來源。我有查了一下，像印尼那邊現在失業率蠻高，他們要出來的人還不少，所以應該不會請不到人，只不過是我們的薪水對外籍看護沒有競爭力才請不到人，會不會？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，第一個，我們其實從1月開始以後就跟我們的來源母國在協商，希望他們引進的數量可以再提高，所以增加引進的供給量這件事情是我們一直在做的。但這裡面確實也要思考到來源母國的一些……因為你要進來做外籍看護有一定的訓練能量，我們也不希望影響到品質，這個我們一直在做。但就像委員說的，的確我們在臺灣請外籍看護的薪資跟日韓比起來可能是差了一些，我們比較不希望看到的狀況的確還是之前講的棄重擇輕，可是我要跟委員說明，我們並不是把棄重擇輕當成是目標，不是！而是我們作為一個行政部門，可能要把各種可能會發生的衝擊將它思考進來，然後為可能的衝擊做因應的準備，所以我們沒有辦法想得很樂觀，認為人一定會很少還是怎樣，我們要把可能的挑戰再多想一些。如果我有條件，對於比較多的人數進來或者多的需求出現來因應的時候，如果人數比較少的話，我也相對比較有充裕的條件。作為行政部門不能只想簡單的，我們要想比較嚴峻的狀況，這是我們的責任。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們當然希望本國的照服員能夠充足，但是我們對本國照服員的要求越來越高。他們其實也很會挑case，本國照服人員待遇很高，但也很會挑案，他們現在以小時計算，給付都不錯，衛福部次長在那邊，他們現在一直在調高，也希望我們這邊能充裕，對不對？所以我們臺灣可以自己照顧老人，老的照顧更老的，自己可以接起來是最好啦，如果萬不得已請國外的，你就要去跟人家拚，這是你們的工作、你們的任務、你們的mission，所以你要增加人，我們絕對支持啦，要增加一百多個、一百八十個等等，我們都支持，絕對支持到底，這樣好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝委員支持。"],["主席：好，謝謝蘇清泉委員的發言，謝謝洪部長的答詢。","下一位請廖偉翔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":220,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-25","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","林淑芬","王正旭","陳瑩","盧縣一","楊曜","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","何欣純"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2025-08-20"],"gazette_id":"1147502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長、衛生福利部就「就業服務法第46條，80歲以上長者聘請外籍看護免巴氏量\n表上路，對重症家庭的衝擊與配套措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審查 (一）委員王\n育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(二）委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人\n自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九\n條及第十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正\n草案」案、(五)委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案【逐條\n討論】","agenda_id":"1147502_00002"}}}