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國際模範生為什麼你會有個概念你去看民調啊 否定不只是河山廠附近的四個鄉鎮的居民超過七成以上都要求河山廠營利你整體的民調裡面河山廠支持連個屏東人支持河山廠比例還是比較高的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"河\", \"start\": 701.073, \"end\": 701.193, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"山\", \"start\": 701.193, \"end\": 701.333, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"廠\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 701.333, \"end\": 701.613, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 701.613, \"end\": 701.813, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 701.813, \"end\": 701.973, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 701.973, \"end\": 702.913, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"際\"}, {\"word\": \"模\", \"start\": 702.913, \"end\": 703.194, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"範\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 703.194, \"end\": 703.514, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 703.514, \"end\": 703.714, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 703.714, \"end\": 704.654, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", 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{\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 717.237, \"end\": 717.457, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"河\", \"start\": 717.457, \"end\": 717.577, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"山\", \"start\": 717.577, \"end\": 717.897, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"廠\"}, {\"word\": \"支\", \"start\": 717.897, \"end\": 718.057, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 718.057, \"end\": 718.917, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"連\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"屏\", \"start\": 718.917, \"end\": 719.257, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"東\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 719.257, \"end\": 719.477, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"支\", \"start\": 719.477, \"end\": 719.638, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 719.638, \"end\": 719.758, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"河\", \"start\": 719.758, \"end\": 719.898, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"山\", \"start\": 719.898, \"end\": 720.198, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"廠\"}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 720.198, \"end\": 720.318, \"score\": 0.902}, 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00:01:25,848\n我的去留我想這個不是我可以決定如果我可以決定我就會跟您報告那第二個我在這個什麼時候去留我想來是偶然來是偶然去是必然所以我在在位的每一天我就是全力以赴我之前也講過了我一天當作兩天在在努力所以我每天做的工作的時間其實超過八個小時\n\n4\n00:01:27,649 --> 00:01:48,950\n希望是一個大家會肯定的經濟部的這個部長那老實講事實上在去年的6月13號那時候我就諮詢過你了那時候你在討論說你會不會是誤闖從你的小白兔可是那時候你的民調是很高啊你剛從企業來的時候我要提醒你說那時候王美花還任期了1431天希望你可以多做一點不過更重要的不是短跟\n\n5\n00:01:50,188 --> 00:02:03,785\n常的問題啦是人民知道你要做什麼事情所以你如果再留下來下個禮拜我會繼續再質詢到你你下禮拜留下來當經濟部長你有沒有什麼事情很想做的你覺得你現在很急著要把它完成的\n\n6\n00:02:09,684 --> 00:02:26,531\n我們現在經濟部最重要的工作最重要的工作有兩項第一項就是在災區救災的事情第二項就是協助這個談判小組談關稅的問題還有你答應的事情把它做完來\n\n7\n00:02:28,666 --> 00:02:50,945\n你上次在這邊質詢打詢的時候還有你去看了一些地方你做了一些引漏包括你跟我說自己的新聞製膨紙上面那個損壞的光電板的時候你有做了一個承諾嘛你說你有把握這個一定要清除完畢啊所以報告委員我們你所指責的那個部分我們都已經從水裡面把它清到上面滷上來了\n\n8\n00:02:52,710 --> 00:03:13,144\n但是對就是說因為他的這個受災的這個情形還蠻嚴重的我想大家都清楚但是大家都關心他在水上是不是會造成大家水源的擔心所以我們第一優先我在講七月把它清除完他的意思就是說從水裡面把它移到路上\n\n9\n00:03:14,125 --> 00:03:28,895\n那我們也用最快的速度坦白講那個如果說讓廠商自己去做大概要兩個月但是我們考慮到委員的這個關心所以我們是在七天裡面就把它完成那個是我整個水利署\n\n10\n00:03:30,305 --> 00:03:59,563\n完全投入然后把我们水利署的公班然后来帮助他们来清除的大家都很清楚嘛就是风灾是不是一个某个区域产生了而且很大量的这个要处理事实上厂商他已经没有办法靠自己独自的能力去完成这个修复的事情所以也谢谢委员的这个关心所以我们也就是说请我们水利署的公班\n\n11\n00:04:00,928 --> 00:04:29,295\n甚至於這一次包括嘉義的救災都是一樣我們現在已經協調出我們整個都協調出來把那個嘉義台南高雄的公共工程的工班工作全部停下來全部進入救災全部進入救災當然彰化也有我想這個召委這我們彰化也是一樣在處理這幾個地區的公共工程的工班\n\n12\n00:04:30,666 --> 00:04:51,977\n全部先停一下子公共工程然後所有的公班都進入災區搶救這個災民這個做法我想我們也是跟委員一樣我們都是人力極力自己感受到那個情境我想委員我們在災區也碰過好幾次我搭高鐵我們也碰了好幾次\n\n13\n00:04:53,098 --> 00:05:19,824\n我們都可以了解在那個時期要靠我們的受災戶自己去解決問題其實是非常難的所以政府的態度政府的態度就是用政府的力量但是政府的工程可以稍微緩一下緩一個月緩兩個月沒有關係但是受災區我們希望受災區所有的災民能夠早一日回到平日的這樣的一個生活這一點我想\n\n14\n00:05:20,984 --> 00:05:47,882\n委員在關心我想委員也很會認同我們這樣的做法最近這幾個禮拜的農曆大家有看嗎包括形象看起來都有改變了啦大家有肯定不過我要提醒你現在人民期待不是只有從這個自動池把它繞上來人民現在期待本來就是說你所謂的清除碗應該就放回去整個回收處理廠嘛對不對那現在現在碰到兩個問題部長我要跟你講兩個非常嚴重的問題第一有些光電板\n\n15\n00:05:50,072 --> 00:06:03,631\n撈上來之後放到你經濟部台廠的土地上面去了另外一個問題等一下我跟你講這個是吹哨者來檢取讓你到了當地去拍的我給你看左下角這個左下角這張圖\n\n16\n00:06:05,404 --> 00:06:27,899\n你這個光電的浮板跟這個光電板放下來這在廢氣屋處理法上面是明明確確規定喔你要一個不透水的那個那個像環布啊那個鋪面要有嘛對不對你看那個都沒做啦所以這個有汙染要可能要你要把它做好了好不好然後又抱歉抱歉我還沒說完那像右邊這些你看那個土這樣挖起來\n\n17\n00:06:28,860 --> 00:06:53,772\n你一些那個重型機器裡面去那個油都漏下來所以整個污染要把它處理好要處理得好誰啦第一本來我都提前一年這個是他現在應該是回到回收處理廠去處理這專業的那沒有的話他應該也要把它做好整個那個不要被污染這是一個第二個現在就是環境部部長最近看了幾次\n\n18\n00:06:55,454 --> 00:07:23,431\n去看了幾次他發現有些製紡紙你們管的嘛這光電板是你們管的光電是你們管的他現在放在什麼地方不是放到台塘土地喔你看你那個製紡紙旁邊的那個道路提案就開始把它碎掉了把那個浮板就碎掉了結果那個塑膠那個顆粒就滿天飛滿天飄這邊你也在碎台塘也在碎農地受到影響然後環境部長去看那邊的農地跟道路又受到影響\n\n19\n00:07:25,154 --> 00:07:52,005\n這個你去規範一下吧避免這個農地的污染好不好是謝謝委員好委員要講事情我要跟您討論一下前陣子引起很大討論的這個河山場那個木林經費那個事情你後來有沒有檢討有沒有發現出了什麼問題為什麼那時候那麼多人在罵你我是是這個樣子我想委員你也很清楚我來當這個部長之前我是大學的教授\n\n20\n00:07:53,288 --> 00:07:56,373\n我是社會科學的研究者我想你也很清楚\n\n21\n00:07:57,503 --> 00:08:23,143\n你也写过论文我们在做民调的时候通常有一些变数关系为了要确实的去了解消费者的意愿的时候我们会把一些变数拿掉我只是说敦青牧林会是其中的一个变数但是我想因为当初他们在讲说我们整个我们恒春的乡亲有77%的人是支持的\n\n22\n00:08:23,715 --> 00:08:49,170\n但是我做一个科学研究者我想我们会对这样的一个命题的解读会提出说我们是不是要再研究一下真正的了解我对这个这个敦青木林废啊我认为这个是没有问题的我们台电到每一个地方去都有敦青木林废嘛我相信我我相信我们恒春的这些这些怎么讲我的\n\n23\n00:08:50,231 --> 00:09:02,129\n同鄉的這個...你也變成同人了我變成同人但是我不可能...你講其他講的情色必要的話可能都要道歉因為你會不會講太快我不是道歉我這個大家的看法不太一樣\n\n24\n00:09:03,328 --> 00:09:21,082\n我只是就一個他的民調的上部上那個問題我在就教於這個委員但是他把我歪樓到別的地方去說我我說我們的這個屏東的這個城村的鄉民是喜歡這個東西這個是完全是\n\n25\n00:09:22,793 --> 00:09:39,172\n您認為這個合理嗎委員你也是社會科學的支持者吧其實民眾為什麼會罵你會那麼抗議其實你那個講法你忽略一個非常重要河山場旁邊附近的居民那四個鄉鎮他們為什麼希望河山可以嚴厲\n\n26\n00:09:41,038 --> 00:10:09,191\n一個跟台電的員工對你聽我講對台電員工的付出跟努力有很大的關係因為你的員工台電的員工在河山場把他經營得非常好他們不只蹲進木林喔他們安全在全世界每次評比都是名列前茅啊所以那個居民才會覺得安全啊所以他們肯定聽我講他們希望河山可以營利他們肯定台電這段時間的付出你知道嗎\n\n27\n00:10:10,267 --> 00:10:20,065\n河山厂的厂长副厂长他们都在那边买房子结婚生子他们很多人退休都是在那边生活\n\n28\n00:10:21,141 --> 00:10:48,123\n他們跟居民已經融為一體了這個才是真正為什麼附近的居民希望河山可以繼續原理因為他們經歷的是安全嘛所以他們才會接受你一直在講說什麼慕尼基金那一塊你就傷了他們的心你為什麼不去看台電員工的付出還有這段時間他們對國家的貢獻我同意委員你的說法委員我同意您的說法只是說如果說我們在做這個社會科學的討論的時候\n\n29\n00:10:49,892 --> 00:11:15,627\n我們可以做一次測試啊可以做一次測試來做一次民調我只是就民調的部分在跟他討論不是說對這個敦俊慕林會這件事情在做討論所以那個命題不一樣結果會不一樣我想這個委員你應該可以支持我的說法要不然台電的員工他也覺得心寒或覺得說沒有被重視\n\n30\n00:11:16,047 --> 00:11:40,553\n他們這麼付出你經濟部長一定肯定沒有沒有沒有也要肯定河山產生不經濟力對我們經濟發展的貢獻你要考慮我們屏東人的心情喔為什麼我們屏東的人要來忍受核電廠在我屏東由這個全國的人來決定屏東人要接受這個河山的研議呢為什麼合一合二合四不研議呢保定\n\n31\n00:11:41,073 --> 00:12:00,898\n河山廠很安全啊國際模範生為什麼你會有個概念你去看民調啊否定不只是河山廠附近的四個鄉鎮的居民超過七成以上都要求河山廠營利你整體的民調裡面河山廠支持連個屏東人支持河山廠比例還是比較高的\n\n32\n00:12:01,838 --> 00:12:26,391\n你要去看民調你不要自己以為說你現在要推動賴總統不要核酸或者總統不要核酸欸你就汙名化核酸連你的好朋友黃承信都講了不要汙名化核冷核酸廠是安全的好另外我要問你一個你看報告委員報告委員核酸廠是不是安全必須要由專家來決定而不是靠民調來決定安全這個命題絕對不能夠是用民調來決定對嘛這個是裡面\n\n33\n00:12:28,092 --> 00:12:56,875\n安全必須要由專家來決定的事情你講這個就沒專家了我跟你講我這個是非常專業的這個就是現在很多民眾在罵你們的這次的河山公投有提到說要投那個安全嗎安全是必要的在河管法修正的時候裡面就清楚要經過安全檢查確定以後他才可以研議這次我們要投的是要不要研議他是個必要的要不要研議總統已經講得非常的清楚\n\n34\n00:12:58,287 --> 00:13:13,195\n兩個必須三個原則只要符合兩個必須三個原則他就可以研議所以我就不知道說這個公投的命題而且特別為我屏東的這個核電廠去做一個公投那為什麼不一起談核一核二\n\n35\n00:13:13,675 --> 00:13:34,014\n何氏呢他也是在谈核电的原意如果说今天是一个确实的命题那么他应该讨论的是核电要不要原意而不是说核酸要不要原意在这个命题我的个人的观点跟我小代表的我的这个知识告诉我\n\n36\n00:13:34,895 --> 00:14:03,475\n正確的事情我們都支持所以您剛剛在講說那如果沒有安全那安全是大家共事OK那我們到底要討論什麼挑問請的那麼清清楚楚沒有安全什麼可能可能延誼啊對不對而且柏定你的問題我回答你我是民眾黨黨團負責提案說明的委員為什麼當初訂的這個是河山延誼沒有其他河山因為去年的河山剛剛大體檢過嘛它是最安全的嘛\n\n37\n00:14:04,710 --> 00:14:33,387\n所以我們才從核三做起啊所以我們也保定你核三年曆823過了之後你就可以進一步去討論核二或者是核四廠要不要體檢嘛你先跨出一個最安全的核三它最新嘛對不對統新而且它去年你花了那麼多錢它剛大稅休完它又是最安全的保定現在喔現在立法院的立法委員正在核三廠在考察我們也確認它是安全的它的那個十四除人潮\n\n38\n00:14:34,622 --> 00:15:02,445\n就是這個燃料棒用完之後出來它又可以用四年喔目前最安全的就是核酸嘛所以先從核酸做起嘛我想不能夠救我來你看一下核廢料問題來保定化加特的核廢料核廢料上一張你一直在講這個三原則安全全世界在用核電的那麼多國家哪一個國家不認為安全要不然他怎麼敢用\n\n39\n00:15:03,379 --> 00:15:19,869\n核廢料的處理核廢料美國有問題嗎美國的AID處長還跟你講不只是技術設備連核廢料他都可以幫忙處理全世界現在核廢料有任何地方有問題嗎現在台灣的核一廠核二廠核三廠核廢料現在可能\n\n40\n00:15:24,517 --> 00:15:52,139\n它在核一核二都在這個這個它廠區裡面啊對嘛全世界也是這樣嘛全世界有哪一個人跟你哪一個國家跟你講說它核廢料有問題沒有啊沒有沒有沒有沒有啊那個委員我跟您報告日本日本的這個地形跟我們是差不多的日本有很多已經停的這個核電廠到現在都沒有重啟\n\n41\n00:15:53,857 --> 00:16:21,631\n那你認為他為什麼沒有重啟我想還是一樣我們要由專家來考慮他的安全問題嘛你知不知道民進黨昨天做了一個做了一個發文被那個日本打臉嗎就是你剛講的那個日本的記者是打臉你民進黨啊昨天竟然說核電重啟不是國際歧視他引用的就是你剛講引用日本結果一部分的媒體馬上出來打臉他他講了這段話我講給你聽\n\n42\n00:16:23,595 --> 00:16:52,241\n他說你民進黨怎麼可以講說我們日本什麼自賀二號機敦賀二號機這些重啟有困難日本的電器新聞直接打臉他說沒有啊什麼自賀二號機地震前跟後日本的科學的評估都是一致根本沒有問題更重要的日本政府已經提出了2025年的他們能源基本計畫裡面明定第一個他們要拖碳就是減碳\n\n43\n00:16:53,356 --> 00:17:02,590\n第二個為了電力的需求所以他們要用最大的限度去活化核能這個核能現在是日本的能源主軸\n\n44\n00:17:04,264 --> 00:17:31,257\n日本昨天打臉了民進黨結果你今天臉都臭了又被打了沒有報告委員我們在討論的你就是很容易把他shift到別的地方去啊但是因為你講的跟昨天民進黨一樣人家很清楚跟你講日本你要講日本啊日本就是他們認為安全啊來我給你看來保定來看下一張保定日本目前保定你這樣講我們日本總有歸宿歸宿還沒有恢復嘛你這樣實在很好啊來來來保定你看來來來保定看\n\n45\n00:17:33,157 --> 00:17:55,131\n日本目前有33座核電的基礎到2024年11月他有7座電廠的13個反應爐本來是3個有6座對不對日本現在已經有恢復了7座電廠13座反應爐在運轉了他們的目標是後面這個更重要他們一直在增加2023年要恢復到20\n\n46\n00:17:57,625 --> 00:18:07,170\n所以日本不是你講的不然日本人很重視安全啊啊你一講說日本沒有恢復所以日本人家出來抗議我沒有講說日本沒有恢復那委員你又再斷章取義囉\n\n47\n00:18:08,885 --> 00:18:29,373\n又在斷章取義我沒有講這句話我是講說日本也有沒有還沒恢復的這個電廠他說扛聖的問題就是安全的問題嘛是啊你也是同意是安全的問題啊是不是這樣但是我的意思是說安全的問題不能夠用公投來決定嘛\n\n48\n00:18:30,353 --> 00:18:59,491\n安全的問題一定要專家決定嘛對不對譬如說我們如果有一台車這台車載40噸啊大家也認為說40噸還可以開啊問題是不是我們兩個掛電說它可以開就可以開嘛一定要電機技師所有的這個專家來決定說它可以開對啊所以要你們所以這個問題就是不是用公投就可以來決定說它是不是要重啟啊這個安全的責任政府就要負啊\n\n49\n00:19:00,529 --> 00:19:13,181\n所以安全不是這次公投的題目你要投的是要不要研議那政府本來在核管法在這次公投的條文裡面就是我們在講過了總統也講過非常清楚前世界哪一個國家會在不確定是安全的時候會重啟核電你都要說40年有沒有研究美國啊\n\n50\n00:19:25,011 --> 00:19:28,018\n美國現在有94座的核電機組其中89座都是超過40年\n\n51\n00:19:34,216 --> 00:19:51,127\n40年當然是安全的啦所以所以剛剛人家講的日本有些人超過40年他經過安全測試之後確定安全他就用了嘛美國也是一樣嘛所以來來我跟你講我也是在講抱歉可能要快一點那個等一下民進黨立委說我站太多時間我今天給你很多時間講法\n\n52\n00:20:04,396 --> 00:20:32,152\n我剛才在講保定我們的台電是很優秀的我們合一廠合二廠合三廠在國際評比我們的車都保養得很好都是名列前茅對自己有信心而且我們機器跟技術都是美國來的安全的問題一定要專家講保定你想要對自己這麼沒有信心我剛才在講黃岑欣說你們不要汙染核電安全的問題一定要專家鑑定安全的問題一定要專家鑑定不能靠民眾大家的意識來決定他是不是可以做\n\n53\n00:20:32,572 --> 00:20:55,109\n你這樣是完全不尊重民意不然你怎麼這樣說民意是民意的部分我們一定尊重對啊你剛才說不是友好人來學沒有安全的事情為什麼要公投這是一個全民意志的展現嘛就你在講三條件的共識嘛你當然要尊重民意啦好啦我知道我時間再拖下去不行了那個主席都已經大家看完我告訴你馬上823就要公投了大後天啦\n\n54\n00:20:56,610 --> 00:21:22,955\n我們現在結議文跟提案文裡面都清楚講它是一個便宜的店穩定的店乾淨的店我也很希望就是說823如果通過了這個門檻之後你本來就依法要做嘛希望你如果留下來好好去推動整個河山廠可是我告訴你河山廠是最新的去年底剛剛提醒過請好好去做事讓河山廠可以趕快研立謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝那我們現在休息10分鐘\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t28679\t人做尋答張旗開委員質詢完我們休息來 請請郭部長郭部長\n36482\t54138\t委員好 部長今天答詢的時候笑容有比較多會講同理心跟人機幾機 人力幾力今天看起來是比較氣定神閒這段時間在傳你的去留賴總統或者是左院長沒有跟你聊到這個事情\n56584\t85848\t我的去留我想這個不是我可以決定如果我可以決定我就會跟您報告那第二個我在這個什麼時候去留我想來是偶然來是偶然去是必然所以我在在位的每一天我就是全力以赴我之前也講過了我一天當作兩天在在努力所以我每天做的工作的時間其實超過八個小時\n87649\t108950\t希望是一個大家會肯定的經濟部的這個部長那老實講事實上在去年的6月13號那時候我就諮詢過你了那時候你在討論說你會不會是誤闖從你的小白兔可是那時候你的民調是很高啊你剛從企業來的時候我要提醒你說那時候王美花還任期了1431天希望你可以多做一點不過更重要的不是短跟\n110188\t123785\t常的問題啦 是人民知道你要做什麼事情所以你如果再留下來下個禮拜我會繼續再質詢到你你下禮拜留下來當經濟部長你有沒有什麼事情很想做的你覺得你現在很急著要把它完成的\n129684\t146531\t我們現在經濟部最重要的工作最重要的工作有兩項第一項就是在災區救災的事情第二項就是協助這個談判小組談關稅的問題還有你答應的事情 把它做完 來\n148666\t170945\t你上次在這邊質詢 打詢的時候 還有你去看了一些地方 你做了一些引漏包括 你跟我說自己的新聞 製膨紙上面那個損壞的光電板的時候 你有做了一個承諾嘛你說你有把握 這個一定要清除完畢啊所以報告委員 我們你所指責的那個部分 我們都已經從水裡面把它清到上面 滷上來了\n172710\t193144\t但是對就是說因為他的這個受災的這個情形還蠻嚴重的我想大家都清楚但是大家都關心他在水上是不是會造成大家水源的擔心所以我們第一優先我在講七月把它清除完他的意思就是說從水裡面把它移到路上\n194125\t208895\t那我們也用最快的速度坦白講那個如果說讓廠商自己去做大概要兩個月但是我們考慮到委員的這個關心所以我們是在七天裡面就把它完成那個是我整個水利署\n210305\t239563\t完全投入然后把我们水利署的公班然后来帮助他们来清除的大家都很清楚嘛就是风灾是不是一个某个区域产生了而且很大量的这个要处理事实上厂商他已经没有办法靠自己独自的能力去完成这个修复的事情所以也谢谢委员的这个关心所以我们也就是说请我们水利署的公班\n240928\t269295\t甚至於這一次包括嘉義的救災都是一樣我們現在已經協調出我們整個都協調出來把那個嘉義台南高雄的公共工程的工班工作全部停下來全部進入救災全部進入救災當然彰化也有我想這個召委這我們彰化也是一樣在處理這幾個地區的公共工程的工班\n270666\t291977\t全部先停一下子公共工程然後所有的公班都進入災區搶救這個災民這個做法我想我們也是跟委員一樣我們都是人力極力自己感受到那個情境我想委員我們在災區也碰過好幾次我搭高鐵我們也碰了好幾次\n293098\t319824\t我們都可以了解在那個時期要靠我們的受災戶自己去解決問題其實是非常難的所以政府的態度政府的態度就是用政府的力量但是政府的工程可以稍微緩一下緩一個月緩兩個月沒有關係但是受災區我們希望受災區所有的災民能夠早一日回到平日的這樣的一個生活這一點我想\n320984\t347882\t委員在關心 我想委員也很會認同我們這樣的做法最近這幾個禮拜的農曆大家有看嗎包括形象看起來都有改變了啦大家有肯定 不過我要提醒你現在人民期待不是只有從這個自動池把它繞上來人民現在期待 本來就是說你所謂的清除碗應該就放回去整個回收處理廠嘛 對不對那現在 現在碰到兩個問題部長我要跟你講 兩個非常嚴重的問題第一 有些光電板\n350072\t363631\t撈上來之後放到你經濟部台廠的土地上面去了另外一個問題等一下我跟你講這個是吹哨者來檢取讓你到了當地去拍的我給你看 左下角這個左下角這張圖\n365404\t387899\t你這個光電的浮板跟這個光電板放下來這在廢氣屋處理法上面是明明確確規定喔你要一個不透水的那個那個像環布啊那個鋪面要有嘛對不對你看那個都沒做啦所以這個有汙染要可能要你要把它做好了好不好然後又 抱歉抱歉我還沒說完那像右邊這些你看那個土這樣挖起來\n388860\t413772\t你一些那個重型機器裡面去 那個油都漏下來所以整個污染要把它處理好 要處理得好誰啦第一 本來我都提前一年這個是 他現在應該是回到回收處理廠去處理 這專業的那沒有的話 他應該也要把它做好整個那個不要被污染 這是一個第二個 現在就是 環境部部長最近看了幾次\n415454\t443431\t去看了幾次 他發現有些製紡紙 你們管的嘛這光電板是你們管的 光電是你們管的他現在放在什麼地方 不是放到台塘土地喔你看你那個製紡紙旁邊的那個道路提案就開始把它碎掉了把那個浮板就碎掉了 結果那個塑膠那個顆粒就滿天飛 滿天飄這邊你也在碎 台塘也在碎 農地受到影響然後環境部長去看那邊的農地跟道路又受到影響\n445154\t472005\t這個你去規範一下吧 避免這個農地的污染好不好是 謝謝委員好 委員要講事情 我要跟您討論一下前陣子引起很大討論的這個河山場那個木林經費那個事情你後來有沒有檢討 有沒有發現出了什麼問題 為什麼那時候那麼多人在罵你我是是這個樣子 我想委員你也很清楚我來當這個部長之前我是大學的教授\n473288\t476373\t我是社會科學的研究者我想你也很清楚\n477503\t503143\t你也写过论文我们在做民调的时候通常有一些变数关系为了要确实的去了解消费者的意愿的时候我们会把一些变数拿掉我只是说敦青牧林会是其中的一个变数但是我想因为当初他们在讲说我们整个我们恒春的乡亲有77%的人是支持的\n503715\t529170\t但是我做一个科学研究者我想我们会对这样的一个命题的解读会提出说我们是不是要再研究一下真正的了解我对这个这个敦青木林废啊我认为这个是没有问题的我们台电到每一个地方去都有敦青木林废嘛我相信我我相信我们恒春的这些这些怎么讲我的\n530231\t542129\t同鄉的這個...你也變成同人了我變成同人 但是我不可能...你講其他講的情色必要的話可能都要道歉因為你會不會講太快我不是道歉我這個大家的看法不太一樣\n543328\t561082\t我只是就一個他的民調的上部上那個問題我在就教於這個委員但是他把我歪樓到別的地方去說我我說我們的這個屏東的這個城村的鄉民是喜歡這個東西這個是完全是\n562793\t579172\t您認為這個合理嗎委員你也是社會科學的支持者吧其實民眾為什麼會罵你會那麼抗議其實你那個講法你忽略一個非常重要河山場旁邊附近的居民那四個鄉鎮他們為什麼希望河山可以嚴厲\n581038\t609191\t一個跟台電的員工對 你聽我講對台電員工的付出跟努力有很大的關係因為你的員工台電的員工在河山場把他經營得非常好他們不只蹲進木林喔他們安全在全世界每次評比都是名列前茅啊所以那個居民才會覺得安全啊所以他們肯定 聽我講他們希望河山可以營利他們肯定台電這段時間的付出你知道嗎\n610267\t620065\t河山厂的厂长 副厂长他们都在那边买房子结婚生子他们很多人退休都是在那边生活\n621141\t648123\t他們跟居民已經融為一體了這個才是真正為什麼附近的居民希望河山可以繼續原理因為他們經歷的是安全嘛所以他們才會接受你一直在講說什麼慕尼基金那一塊你就傷了他們的心你為什麼不去看台電員工的付出還有這段時間他們對國家的貢獻我同意委員你的說法委員我同意您的說法只是說如果說我們在做這個社會科學的討論的時候\n649892\t675627\t我們可以做一次測試啊可以做一次測試來做一次民調我只是就民調的部分在跟他討論不是說對這個敦俊慕林會這件事情在做討論所以那個命題不一樣結果會不一樣我想這個委員你應該可以支持我的說法要不然台電的員工他也覺得心寒或覺得說沒有被重視\n676047\t700553\t他們這麼付出你經濟部長一定肯定沒有沒有沒有也要肯定河山產生不經濟力對我們經濟發展的貢獻你要考慮我們屏東人的心情喔為什麼我們屏東的人要來忍受核電廠在我屏東由這個全國的人來決定屏東人要接受這個河山的研議呢為什麼合一合二合四不研議呢保定\n701073\t720898\t河山廠很安全啊 國際模範生為什麼你會有個概念你去看民調啊 否定不只是河山廠附近的四個鄉鎮的居民超過七成以上都要求河山廠營利你整體的民調裡面河山廠支持連個屏東人支持河山廠比例還是比較高的\n721838\t746391\t你要去看民調 你不要自己以為說你現在要推動賴總統不要核酸 或者總統不要核酸欸 你就汙名化核酸連你的好朋友黃承信都講了 不要汙名化核冷核酸廠是安全的好 另外我要問你一個 你看報告委員 報告委員核酸廠是不是安全 必須要由專家來決定而不是靠民調來決定安全這個命題 絕對不能夠是用民調來決定對嘛 這個是裡面\n748092\t776875\t安全必須要由專家來決定的事情你講這個就沒專家了 我跟你講我這個是非常專業的這個就是現在很多民眾在罵你們的這次的河山公投有提到說要投那個安全嗎安全是必要的在河管法修正的時候裡面就清楚要經過安全檢查確定以後他才可以研議這次我們要投的是要不要研議他是個必要的要不要研議總統已經講得非常的清楚\n778287\t793195\t兩個必須三個原則只要符合兩個必須三個原則他就可以研議所以我就不知道說這個公投的命題而且特別為我屏東的這個核電廠去做一個公投那為什麼不一起談核一核二\n793675\t814014\t何氏呢他也是在谈核电的原意如果说今天是一个确实的命题那么他应该讨论的是核电要不要原意而不是说核酸要不要原意在这个命题我的个人的观点跟我小代表的我的这个知识告诉我\n814895\t843475\t正確的事情我們都支持所以您剛剛在講說那如果沒有安全那安全是大家共事 OK那我們到底要討論什麼挑問請的那麼清清楚楚沒有安全什麼可能 可能延誼啊對不對而且柏定你的問題我回答你我是民眾黨黨團負責提案說明的委員為什麼當初訂的這個是河山延誼沒有其他河山因為去年的河山剛剛大體檢過嘛它是最安全的嘛\n844710\t873387\t所以我們才從核三做起啊所以我們也 保定你核三年曆823過了之後你就可以進一步去討論核二或者是核四廠要不要體檢嘛你先跨出一個最安全的核三它最新嘛 對不對統新而且它去年你花了那麼多錢它剛大稅休完它又是最安全的保定 現在喔現在立法院的立法委員正在核三廠在考察我們也確認它是安全的它的那個十四除人潮\n874622\t902445\t就是這個燃料棒用完之後出來它又可以用四年喔目前最安全的就是核酸嘛所以先從核酸做起嘛我想不能夠救我來 你看一下核廢料問題來 保定化加特的核廢料核廢料 上一張你一直在講這個三原則安全 全世界在用核電的那麼多國家哪一個國家不認為安全要不然他怎麼敢用\n903379\t919869\t核廢料的處理核廢料美國有問題嗎美國的AID處長還跟你講不只是技術設備連核廢料他都可以幫忙處理全世界現在核廢料有任何地方有問題嗎現在台灣的核一廠 核二廠 核三廠核廢料現在可能\n924517\t952139\t它在核一核二都在這個這個它廠區裡面啊對嘛全世界也是這樣嘛全世界有哪一個人跟你哪一個國家跟你講說它核廢料有問題沒有啊沒有沒有沒有沒有啊那個委員我跟您報告日本日本的這個地形跟我們是差不多的日本有很多已經停的這個核電廠到現在都沒有重啟\n953857\t981631\t那你認為他為什麼沒有重啟我想還是一樣我們要由專家來考慮他的安全問題嘛你知不知道民進黨昨天做了一個做了一個發文被那個日本打臉嗎就是你剛講的那個日本的記者是打臉你民進黨啊昨天竟然說核電重啟不是國際歧視他引用的就是你剛講引用日本結果一部分的媒體馬上出來打臉他他講了這段話我講給你聽\n983595\t1012241\t他說你民進黨怎麼可以講說我們日本什麼自賀二號機敦賀二號機這些重啟有困難日本的電器新聞直接打臉他說沒有啊 什麼自賀二號機地震前跟後 日本的科學的評估都是一致根本沒有問題 更重要的日本政府已經提出了2025年的他們能源基本計畫裡面明定第一個 他們要拖碳 就是減碳\n1013356\t1022590\t第二個為了電力的需求所以他們要用最大的限度去活化核能這個核能現在是日本的能源主軸\n1024264\t1051257\t日本昨天打臉了民進黨結果你今天臉都臭了又被打了沒有 報告委員我們在討論的你就是很容易把他shift到別的地方去啊但是因為你講的跟昨天民進黨一樣人家很清楚跟你講日本 你要講日本啊日本就是他們認為安全啊來 我給你看來 保定來看下一張保定 日本目前保定 你這樣講我們日本總有歸宿歸宿還沒有恢復嘛你這樣實在很好啊來來來 保定你看來來來 保定看\n1053157\t1075131\t日本目前有33座核電的基礎到2024年11月他有7座電廠的13個反應爐本來是3個有6座對不對日本現在已經有恢復了7座電廠13座反應爐在運轉了他們的目標是後面這個更重要他們一直在增加2023年要恢復到20\n1077625\t1087170\t所以日本不是你講的不然日本人很重視安全啊啊你一講說日本沒有恢復所以日本人家出來抗議我沒有講說日本沒有恢復那委員你又再斷章取義囉\n1088885\t1109373\t又在斷章取義我沒有講這句話我是講說日本也有沒有還沒恢復的這個電廠他說扛聖的問題就是安全的問題嘛是啊你也是同意是安全的問題啊是不是這樣但是我的意思是說安全的問題不能夠用公投來決定嘛\n1110353\t1139491\t安全的問題一定要專家決定嘛對不對譬如說我們如果有一台車這台車載40噸啊大家也認為說40噸還可以開啊問題是不是我們兩個掛電說它可以開就可以開嘛一定要電機技師所有的這個專家來決定說它可以開對啊所以要你們所以這個問題就是不是用公投就可以來決定說它是不是要重啟啊這個安全的責任政府就要負啊\n1140529\t1153181\t所以 安全不是這次公投的題目你要投的是要不要研議那政府本來在核管法在這次公投的條文裡面就是我們在講過了 總統也講過非常清楚前世界哪一個國家會在不確定是安全的時候會重啟核電你都要說40年有沒有研究美國啊\n1165011\t1168018\t美國現在有94座的核電機組其中89座都是超過40年\n1174216\t1191127\t40年當然是安全的啦所以所以剛剛人家講的日本有些人超過40年他經過安全測試之後 確定安全他就用了嘛美國也是一樣嘛所以來來 我跟你講我也是在講抱歉 可能要快一點那個等一下民進黨立委說我站太多時間我今天給你很多時間講法\n1204396\t1232152\t我剛才在講 保定我們的台電是很優秀的我們合一廠 合二廠 合三廠在國際評比我們的車都保養得很好都是名列前茅 對自己有信心而且我們機器跟技術都是美國來的安全的問題一定要專家講保定你想要對自己這麼沒有信心我剛才在講 黃岑欣說你們不要汙染核電安全的問題一定要專家鑑定安全的問題一定要專家鑑定不能靠民眾大家的意識來決定他是不是可以做\n1232572\t1255109\t你這樣是完全不尊重民意 不然你怎麼這樣說民意是 民意的部分我們一定尊重對啊 你剛才說不是友好人來學沒有安全的事情為什麼要公投 這是一個全民意志的展現嘛就你在講三條件的共識嘛你當然要尊重民意啦 好啦我知道我時間再拖下去不行了那個主席都已經 大家看完我告訴你 馬上823就要公投了 大後天啦\n1256610\t1282955\t我們現在結議文跟提案文裡面都清楚講它是一個便宜的店穩定的店 乾淨的店我也很希望就是說823如果通過了這個門檻之後你本來就依法要做嘛希望你如果留下來好好去推動整個河山廠可是我告訴你河山廠是最新的去年底剛剛提醒過請好好去做事讓河山廠可以趕快研立 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝那我們現在休息10分鐘\n","txt":"人做尋答張旗開委員質詢完我們休息來 請請郭部長郭部長\n委員好 部長今天答詢的時候笑容有比較多會講同理心跟人機幾機 人力幾力今天看起來是比較氣定神閒這段時間在傳你的去留賴總統或者是左院長沒有跟你聊到這個事情\n我的去留我想這個不是我可以決定如果我可以決定我就會跟您報告那第二個我在這個什麼時候去留我想來是偶然來是偶然去是必然所以我在在位的每一天我就是全力以赴我之前也講過了我一天當作兩天在在努力所以我每天做的工作的時間其實超過八個小時\n希望是一個大家會肯定的經濟部的這個部長那老實講事實上在去年的6月13號那時候我就諮詢過你了那時候你在討論說你會不會是誤闖從你的小白兔可是那時候你的民調是很高啊你剛從企業來的時候我要提醒你說那時候王美花還任期了1431天希望你可以多做一點不過更重要的不是短跟\n常的問題啦 是人民知道你要做什麼事情所以你如果再留下來下個禮拜我會繼續再質詢到你你下禮拜留下來當經濟部長你有沒有什麼事情很想做的你覺得你現在很急著要把它完成的\n我們現在經濟部最重要的工作最重要的工作有兩項第一項就是在災區救災的事情第二項就是協助這個談判小組談關稅的問題還有你答應的事情 把它做完 來\n你上次在這邊質詢 打詢的時候 還有你去看了一些地方 你做了一些引漏包括 你跟我說自己的新聞 製膨紙上面那個損壞的光電板的時候 你有做了一個承諾嘛你說你有把握 這個一定要清除完畢啊所以報告委員 我們你所指責的那個部分 我們都已經從水裡面把它清到上面 滷上來了\n但是對就是說因為他的這個受災的這個情形還蠻嚴重的我想大家都清楚但是大家都關心他在水上是不是會造成大家水源的擔心所以我們第一優先我在講七月把它清除完他的意思就是說從水裡面把它移到路上\n那我們也用最快的速度坦白講那個如果說讓廠商自己去做大概要兩個月但是我們考慮到委員的這個關心所以我們是在七天裡面就把它完成那個是我整個水利署\n完全投入然后把我们水利署的公班然后来帮助他们来清除的大家都很清楚嘛就是风灾是不是一个某个区域产生了而且很大量的这个要处理事实上厂商他已经没有办法靠自己独自的能力去完成这个修复的事情所以也谢谢委员的这个关心所以我们也就是说请我们水利署的公班\n甚至於這一次包括嘉義的救災都是一樣我們現在已經協調出我們整個都協調出來把那個嘉義台南高雄的公共工程的工班工作全部停下來全部進入救災全部進入救災當然彰化也有我想這個召委這我們彰化也是一樣在處理這幾個地區的公共工程的工班\n全部先停一下子公共工程然後所有的公班都進入災區搶救這個災民這個做法我想我們也是跟委員一樣我們都是人力極力自己感受到那個情境我想委員我們在災區也碰過好幾次我搭高鐵我們也碰了好幾次\n我們都可以了解在那個時期要靠我們的受災戶自己去解決問題其實是非常難的所以政府的態度政府的態度就是用政府的力量但是政府的工程可以稍微緩一下緩一個月緩兩個月沒有關係但是受災區我們希望受災區所有的災民能夠早一日回到平日的這樣的一個生活這一點我想\n委員在關心 我想委員也很會認同我們這樣的做法最近這幾個禮拜的農曆大家有看嗎包括形象看起來都有改變了啦大家有肯定 不過我要提醒你現在人民期待不是只有從這個自動池把它繞上來人民現在期待 本來就是說你所謂的清除碗應該就放回去整個回收處理廠嘛 對不對那現在 現在碰到兩個問題部長我要跟你講 兩個非常嚴重的問題第一 有些光電板\n撈上來之後放到你經濟部台廠的土地上面去了另外一個問題等一下我跟你講這個是吹哨者來檢取讓你到了當地去拍的我給你看 左下角這個左下角這張圖\n你這個光電的浮板跟這個光電板放下來這在廢氣屋處理法上面是明明確確規定喔你要一個不透水的那個那個像環布啊那個鋪面要有嘛對不對你看那個都沒做啦所以這個有汙染要可能要你要把它做好了好不好然後又 抱歉抱歉我還沒說完那像右邊這些你看那個土這樣挖起來\n你一些那個重型機器裡面去 那個油都漏下來所以整個污染要把它處理好 要處理得好誰啦第一 本來我都提前一年這個是 他現在應該是回到回收處理廠去處理 這專業的那沒有的話 他應該也要把它做好整個那個不要被污染 這是一個第二個 現在就是 環境部部長最近看了幾次\n去看了幾次 他發現有些製紡紙 你們管的嘛這光電板是你們管的 光電是你們管的他現在放在什麼地方 不是放到台塘土地喔你看你那個製紡紙旁邊的那個道路提案就開始把它碎掉了把那個浮板就碎掉了 結果那個塑膠那個顆粒就滿天飛 滿天飄這邊你也在碎 台塘也在碎 農地受到影響然後環境部長去看那邊的農地跟道路又受到影響\n這個你去規範一下吧 避免這個農地的污染好不好是 謝謝委員好 委員要講事情 我要跟您討論一下前陣子引起很大討論的這個河山場那個木林經費那個事情你後來有沒有檢討 有沒有發現出了什麼問題 為什麼那時候那麼多人在罵你我是是這個樣子 我想委員你也很清楚我來當這個部長之前我是大學的教授\n我是社會科學的研究者我想你也很清楚\n你也写过论文我们在做民调的时候通常有一些变数关系为了要确实的去了解消费者的意愿的时候我们会把一些变数拿掉我只是说敦青牧林会是其中的一个变数但是我想因为当初他们在讲说我们整个我们恒春的乡亲有77%的人是支持的\n但是我做一个科学研究者我想我们会对这样的一个命题的解读会提出说我们是不是要再研究一下真正的了解我对这个这个敦青木林废啊我认为这个是没有问题的我们台电到每一个地方去都有敦青木林废嘛我相信我我相信我们恒春的这些这些怎么讲我的\n同鄉的這個...你也變成同人了我變成同人 但是我不可能...你講其他講的情色必要的話可能都要道歉因為你會不會講太快我不是道歉我這個大家的看法不太一樣\n我只是就一個他的民調的上部上那個問題我在就教於這個委員但是他把我歪樓到別的地方去說我我說我們的這個屏東的這個城村的鄉民是喜歡這個東西這個是完全是\n您認為這個合理嗎委員你也是社會科學的支持者吧其實民眾為什麼會罵你會那麼抗議其實你那個講法你忽略一個非常重要河山場旁邊附近的居民那四個鄉鎮他們為什麼希望河山可以嚴厲\n一個跟台電的員工對 你聽我講對台電員工的付出跟努力有很大的關係因為你的員工台電的員工在河山場把他經營得非常好他們不只蹲進木林喔他們安全在全世界每次評比都是名列前茅啊所以那個居民才會覺得安全啊所以他們肯定 聽我講他們希望河山可以營利他們肯定台電這段時間的付出你知道嗎\n河山厂的厂长 副厂长他们都在那边买房子结婚生子他们很多人退休都是在那边生活\n他們跟居民已經融為一體了這個才是真正為什麼附近的居民希望河山可以繼續原理因為他們經歷的是安全嘛所以他們才會接受你一直在講說什麼慕尼基金那一塊你就傷了他們的心你為什麼不去看台電員工的付出還有這段時間他們對國家的貢獻我同意委員你的說法委員我同意您的說法只是說如果說我們在做這個社會科學的討論的時候\n我們可以做一次測試啊可以做一次測試來做一次民調我只是就民調的部分在跟他討論不是說對這個敦俊慕林會這件事情在做討論所以那個命題不一樣結果會不一樣我想這個委員你應該可以支持我的說法要不然台電的員工他也覺得心寒或覺得說沒有被重視\n他們這麼付出你經濟部長一定肯定沒有沒有沒有也要肯定河山產生不經濟力對我們經濟發展的貢獻你要考慮我們屏東人的心情喔為什麼我們屏東的人要來忍受核電廠在我屏東由這個全國的人來決定屏東人要接受這個河山的研議呢為什麼合一合二合四不研議呢保定\n河山廠很安全啊 國際模範生為什麼你會有個概念你去看民調啊 否定不只是河山廠附近的四個鄉鎮的居民超過七成以上都要求河山廠營利你整體的民調裡面河山廠支持連個屏東人支持河山廠比例還是比較高的\n你要去看民調 你不要自己以為說你現在要推動賴總統不要核酸 或者總統不要核酸欸 你就汙名化核酸連你的好朋友黃承信都講了 不要汙名化核冷核酸廠是安全的好 另外我要問你一個 你看報告委員 報告委員核酸廠是不是安全 必須要由專家來決定而不是靠民調來決定安全這個命題 絕對不能夠是用民調來決定對嘛 這個是裡面\n安全必須要由專家來決定的事情你講這個就沒專家了 我跟你講我這個是非常專業的這個就是現在很多民眾在罵你們的這次的河山公投有提到說要投那個安全嗎安全是必要的在河管法修正的時候裡面就清楚要經過安全檢查確定以後他才可以研議這次我們要投的是要不要研議他是個必要的要不要研議總統已經講得非常的清楚\n兩個必須三個原則只要符合兩個必須三個原則他就可以研議所以我就不知道說這個公投的命題而且特別為我屏東的這個核電廠去做一個公投那為什麼不一起談核一核二\n何氏呢他也是在谈核电的原意如果说今天是一个确实的命题那么他应该讨论的是核电要不要原意而不是说核酸要不要原意在这个命题我的个人的观点跟我小代表的我的这个知识告诉我\n正確的事情我們都支持所以您剛剛在講說那如果沒有安全那安全是大家共事 OK那我們到底要討論什麼挑問請的那麼清清楚楚沒有安全什麼可能 可能延誼啊對不對而且柏定你的問題我回答你我是民眾黨黨團負責提案說明的委員為什麼當初訂的這個是河山延誼沒有其他河山因為去年的河山剛剛大體檢過嘛它是最安全的嘛\n所以我們才從核三做起啊所以我們也 保定你核三年曆823過了之後你就可以進一步去討論核二或者是核四廠要不要體檢嘛你先跨出一個最安全的核三它最新嘛 對不對統新而且它去年你花了那麼多錢它剛大稅休完它又是最安全的保定 現在喔現在立法院的立法委員正在核三廠在考察我們也確認它是安全的它的那個十四除人潮\n就是這個燃料棒用完之後出來它又可以用四年喔目前最安全的就是核酸嘛所以先從核酸做起嘛我想不能夠救我來 你看一下核廢料問題來 保定化加特的核廢料核廢料 上一張你一直在講這個三原則安全 全世界在用核電的那麼多國家哪一個國家不認為安全要不然他怎麼敢用\n核廢料的處理核廢料美國有問題嗎美國的AID處長還跟你講不只是技術設備連核廢料他都可以幫忙處理全世界現在核廢料有任何地方有問題嗎現在台灣的核一廠 核二廠 核三廠核廢料現在可能\n它在核一核二都在這個這個它廠區裡面啊對嘛全世界也是這樣嘛全世界有哪一個人跟你哪一個國家跟你講說它核廢料有問題沒有啊沒有沒有沒有沒有啊那個委員我跟您報告日本日本的這個地形跟我們是差不多的日本有很多已經停的這個核電廠到現在都沒有重啟\n那你認為他為什麼沒有重啟我想還是一樣我們要由專家來考慮他的安全問題嘛你知不知道民進黨昨天做了一個做了一個發文被那個日本打臉嗎就是你剛講的那個日本的記者是打臉你民進黨啊昨天竟然說核電重啟不是國際歧視他引用的就是你剛講引用日本結果一部分的媒體馬上出來打臉他他講了這段話我講給你聽\n他說你民進黨怎麼可以講說我們日本什麼自賀二號機敦賀二號機這些重啟有困難日本的電器新聞直接打臉他說沒有啊 什麼自賀二號機地震前跟後 日本的科學的評估都是一致根本沒有問題 更重要的日本政府已經提出了2025年的他們能源基本計畫裡面明定第一個 他們要拖碳 就是減碳\n第二個為了電力的需求所以他們要用最大的限度去活化核能這個核能現在是日本的能源主軸\n日本昨天打臉了民進黨結果你今天臉都臭了又被打了沒有 報告委員我們在討論的你就是很容易把他shift到別的地方去啊但是因為你講的跟昨天民進黨一樣人家很清楚跟你講日本 你要講日本啊日本就是他們認為安全啊來 我給你看來 保定來看下一張保定 日本目前保定 你這樣講我們日本總有歸宿歸宿還沒有恢復嘛你這樣實在很好啊來來來 保定你看來來來 保定看\n日本目前有33座核電的基礎到2024年11月他有7座電廠的13個反應爐本來是3個有6座對不對日本現在已經有恢復了7座電廠13座反應爐在運轉了他們的目標是後面這個更重要他們一直在增加2023年要恢復到20\n所以日本不是你講的不然日本人很重視安全啊啊你一講說日本沒有恢復所以日本人家出來抗議我沒有講說日本沒有恢復那委員你又再斷章取義囉\n又在斷章取義我沒有講這句話我是講說日本也有沒有還沒恢復的這個電廠他說扛聖的問題就是安全的問題嘛是啊你也是同意是安全的問題啊是不是這樣但是我的意思是說安全的問題不能夠用公投來決定嘛\n安全的問題一定要專家決定嘛對不對譬如說我們如果有一台車這台車載40噸啊大家也認為說40噸還可以開啊問題是不是我們兩個掛電說它可以開就可以開嘛一定要電機技師所有的這個專家來決定說它可以開對啊所以要你們所以這個問題就是不是用公投就可以來決定說它是不是要重啟啊這個安全的責任政府就要負啊\n所以 安全不是這次公投的題目你要投的是要不要研議那政府本來在核管法在這次公投的條文裡面就是我們在講過了 總統也講過非常清楚前世界哪一個國家會在不確定是安全的時候會重啟核電你都要說40年有沒有研究美國啊\n美國現在有94座的核電機組其中89座都是超過40年\n40年當然是安全的啦所以所以剛剛人家講的日本有些人超過40年他經過安全測試之後 確定安全他就用了嘛美國也是一樣嘛所以來來 我跟你講我也是在講抱歉 可能要快一點那個等一下民進黨立委說我站太多時間我今天給你很多時間講法\n我剛才在講 保定我們的台電是很優秀的我們合一廠 合二廠 合三廠在國際評比我們的車都保養得很好都是名列前茅 對自己有信心而且我們機器跟技術都是美國來的安全的問題一定要專家講保定你想要對自己這麼沒有信心我剛才在講 黃岑欣說你們不要汙染核電安全的問題一定要專家鑑定安全的問題一定要專家鑑定不能靠民眾大家的意識來決定他是不是可以做\n你這樣是完全不尊重民意 不然你怎麼這樣說民意是 民意的部分我們一定尊重對啊 你剛才說不是友好人來學沒有安全的事情為什麼要公投 這是一個全民意志的展現嘛就你在講三條件的共識嘛你當然要尊重民意啦 好啦我知道我時間再拖下去不行了那個主席都已經 大家看完我告訴你 馬上823就要公投了 大後天啦\n我們現在結議文跟提案文裡面都清楚講它是一個便宜的店穩定的店 乾淨的店我也很希望就是說823如果通過了這個門檻之後你本來就依法要做嘛希望你如果留下來好好去推動整個河山廠可是我告訴你河山廠是最新的去年底剛剛提醒過請好好去做事讓河山廠可以趕快研立 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝那我們現在休息10分鐘\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:28.679\n人做尋答張旗開委員質詢完我們休息來請請郭部長郭部長\n\n00:36.482 --> 00:54.138\n委員好部長今天答詢的時候笑容有比較多會講同理心跟人機幾機人力幾力今天看起來是比較氣定神閒這段時間在傳你的去留賴總統或者是左院長沒有跟你聊到這個事情\n\n00:56.584 --> 01:25.848\n我的去留我想這個不是我可以決定如果我可以決定我就會跟您報告那第二個我在這個什麼時候去留我想來是偶然來是偶然去是必然所以我在在位的每一天我就是全力以赴我之前也講過了我一天當作兩天在在努力所以我每天做的工作的時間其實超過八個小時\n\n01:27.649 --> 01:48.950\n希望是一個大家會肯定的經濟部的這個部長那老實講事實上在去年的6月13號那時候我就諮詢過你了那時候你在討論說你會不會是誤闖從你的小白兔可是那時候你的民調是很高啊你剛從企業來的時候我要提醒你說那時候王美花還任期了1431天希望你可以多做一點不過更重要的不是短跟\n\n01:50.188 --> 02:03.785\n常的問題啦是人民知道你要做什麼事情所以你如果再留下來下個禮拜我會繼續再質詢到你你下禮拜留下來當經濟部長你有沒有什麼事情很想做的你覺得你現在很急著要把它完成的\n\n02:09.684 --> 02:26.531\n我們現在經濟部最重要的工作最重要的工作有兩項第一項就是在災區救災的事情第二項就是協助這個談判小組談關稅的問題還有你答應的事情把它做完來\n\n02:28.666 --> 02:50.945\n你上次在這邊質詢打詢的時候還有你去看了一些地方你做了一些引漏包括你跟我說自己的新聞製膨紙上面那個損壞的光電板的時候你有做了一個承諾嘛你說你有把握這個一定要清除完畢啊所以報告委員我們你所指責的那個部分我們都已經從水裡面把它清到上面滷上來了\n\n02:52.710 --> 03:13.144\n但是對就是說因為他的這個受災的這個情形還蠻嚴重的我想大家都清楚但是大家都關心他在水上是不是會造成大家水源的擔心所以我們第一優先我在講七月把它清除完他的意思就是說從水裡面把它移到路上\n\n03:14.125 --> 03:28.895\n那我們也用最快的速度坦白講那個如果說讓廠商自己去做大概要兩個月但是我們考慮到委員的這個關心所以我們是在七天裡面就把它完成那個是我整個水利署\n\n03:30.305 --> 03:59.563\n完全投入然后把我们水利署的公班然后来帮助他们来清除的大家都很清楚嘛就是风灾是不是一个某个区域产生了而且很大量的这个要处理事实上厂商他已经没有办法靠自己独自的能力去完成这个修复的事情所以也谢谢委员的这个关心所以我们也就是说请我们水利署的公班\n\n04:00.928 --> 04:29.295\n甚至於這一次包括嘉義的救災都是一樣我們現在已經協調出我們整個都協調出來把那個嘉義台南高雄的公共工程的工班工作全部停下來全部進入救災全部進入救災當然彰化也有我想這個召委這我們彰化也是一樣在處理這幾個地區的公共工程的工班\n\n04:30.666 --> 04:51.977\n全部先停一下子公共工程然後所有的公班都進入災區搶救這個災民這個做法我想我們也是跟委員一樣我們都是人力極力自己感受到那個情境我想委員我們在災區也碰過好幾次我搭高鐵我們也碰了好幾次\n\n04:53.098 --> 05:19.824\n我們都可以了解在那個時期要靠我們的受災戶自己去解決問題其實是非常難的所以政府的態度政府的態度就是用政府的力量但是政府的工程可以稍微緩一下緩一個月緩兩個月沒有關係但是受災區我們希望受災區所有的災民能夠早一日回到平日的這樣的一個生活這一點我想\n\n05:20.984 --> 05:47.882\n委員在關心我想委員也很會認同我們這樣的做法最近這幾個禮拜的農曆大家有看嗎包括形象看起來都有改變了啦大家有肯定不過我要提醒你現在人民期待不是只有從這個自動池把它繞上來人民現在期待本來就是說你所謂的清除碗應該就放回去整個回收處理廠嘛對不對那現在現在碰到兩個問題部長我要跟你講兩個非常嚴重的問題第一有些光電板\n\n05:50.072 --> 06:03.631\n撈上來之後放到你經濟部台廠的土地上面去了另外一個問題等一下我跟你講這個是吹哨者來檢取讓你到了當地去拍的我給你看左下角這個左下角這張圖\n\n06:05.404 --> 06:27.899\n你這個光電的浮板跟這個光電板放下來這在廢氣屋處理法上面是明明確確規定喔你要一個不透水的那個那個像環布啊那個鋪面要有嘛對不對你看那個都沒做啦所以這個有汙染要可能要你要把它做好了好不好然後又抱歉抱歉我還沒說完那像右邊這些你看那個土這樣挖起來\n\n06:28.860 --> 06:53.772\n你一些那個重型機器裡面去那個油都漏下來所以整個污染要把它處理好要處理得好誰啦第一本來我都提前一年這個是他現在應該是回到回收處理廠去處理這專業的那沒有的話他應該也要把它做好整個那個不要被污染這是一個第二個現在就是環境部部長最近看了幾次\n\n06:55.454 --> 07:23.431\n去看了幾次他發現有些製紡紙你們管的嘛這光電板是你們管的光電是你們管的他現在放在什麼地方不是放到台塘土地喔你看你那個製紡紙旁邊的那個道路提案就開始把它碎掉了把那個浮板就碎掉了結果那個塑膠那個顆粒就滿天飛滿天飄這邊你也在碎台塘也在碎農地受到影響然後環境部長去看那邊的農地跟道路又受到影響\n\n07:25.154 --> 07:52.005\n這個你去規範一下吧避免這個農地的污染好不好是謝謝委員好委員要講事情我要跟您討論一下前陣子引起很大討論的這個河山場那個木林經費那個事情你後來有沒有檢討有沒有發現出了什麼問題為什麼那時候那麼多人在罵你我是是這個樣子我想委員你也很清楚我來當這個部長之前我是大學的教授\n\n07:53.288 --> 07:56.373\n我是社會科學的研究者我想你也很清楚\n\n07:57.503 --> 08:23.143\n你也写过论文我们在做民调的时候通常有一些变数关系为了要确实的去了解消费者的意愿的时候我们会把一些变数拿掉我只是说敦青牧林会是其中的一个变数但是我想因为当初他们在讲说我们整个我们恒春的乡亲有77%的人是支持的\n\n08:23.715 --> 08:49.170\n但是我做一个科学研究者我想我们会对这样的一个命题的解读会提出说我们是不是要再研究一下真正的了解我对这个这个敦青木林废啊我认为这个是没有问题的我们台电到每一个地方去都有敦青木林废嘛我相信我我相信我们恒春的这些这些怎么讲我的\n\n08:50.231 --> 09:02.129\n同鄉的這個...你也變成同人了我變成同人但是我不可能...你講其他講的情色必要的話可能都要道歉因為你會不會講太快我不是道歉我這個大家的看法不太一樣\n\n09:03.328 --> 09:21.082\n我只是就一個他的民調的上部上那個問題我在就教於這個委員但是他把我歪樓到別的地方去說我我說我們的這個屏東的這個城村的鄉民是喜歡這個東西這個是完全是\n\n09:22.793 --> 09:39.172\n您認為這個合理嗎委員你也是社會科學的支持者吧其實民眾為什麼會罵你會那麼抗議其實你那個講法你忽略一個非常重要河山場旁邊附近的居民那四個鄉鎮他們為什麼希望河山可以嚴厲\n\n09:41.038 --> 10:09.191\n一個跟台電的員工對你聽我講對台電員工的付出跟努力有很大的關係因為你的員工台電的員工在河山場把他經營得非常好他們不只蹲進木林喔他們安全在全世界每次評比都是名列前茅啊所以那個居民才會覺得安全啊所以他們肯定聽我講他們希望河山可以營利他們肯定台電這段時間的付出你知道嗎\n\n10:10.267 --> 10:20.065\n河山厂的厂长副厂长他们都在那边买房子结婚生子他们很多人退休都是在那边生活\n\n10:21.141 --> 10:48.123\n他們跟居民已經融為一體了這個才是真正為什麼附近的居民希望河山可以繼續原理因為他們經歷的是安全嘛所以他們才會接受你一直在講說什麼慕尼基金那一塊你就傷了他們的心你為什麼不去看台電員工的付出還有這段時間他們對國家的貢獻我同意委員你的說法委員我同意您的說法只是說如果說我們在做這個社會科學的討論的時候\n\n10:49.892 --> 11:15.627\n我們可以做一次測試啊可以做一次測試來做一次民調我只是就民調的部分在跟他討論不是說對這個敦俊慕林會這件事情在做討論所以那個命題不一樣結果會不一樣我想這個委員你應該可以支持我的說法要不然台電的員工他也覺得心寒或覺得說沒有被重視\n\n11:16.047 --> 11:40.553\n他們這麼付出你經濟部長一定肯定沒有沒有沒有也要肯定河山產生不經濟力對我們經濟發展的貢獻你要考慮我們屏東人的心情喔為什麼我們屏東的人要來忍受核電廠在我屏東由這個全國的人來決定屏東人要接受這個河山的研議呢為什麼合一合二合四不研議呢保定\n\n11:41.073 --> 12:00.898\n河山廠很安全啊國際模範生為什麼你會有個概念你去看民調啊否定不只是河山廠附近的四個鄉鎮的居民超過七成以上都要求河山廠營利你整體的民調裡面河山廠支持連個屏東人支持河山廠比例還是比較高的\n\n12:01.838 --> 12:26.391\n你要去看民調你不要自己以為說你現在要推動賴總統不要核酸或者總統不要核酸欸你就汙名化核酸連你的好朋友黃承信都講了不要汙名化核冷核酸廠是安全的好另外我要問你一個你看報告委員報告委員核酸廠是不是安全必須要由專家來決定而不是靠民調來決定安全這個命題絕對不能夠是用民調來決定對嘛這個是裡面\n\n12:28.092 --> 12:56.875\n安全必須要由專家來決定的事情你講這個就沒專家了我跟你講我這個是非常專業的這個就是現在很多民眾在罵你們的這次的河山公投有提到說要投那個安全嗎安全是必要的在河管法修正的時候裡面就清楚要經過安全檢查確定以後他才可以研議這次我們要投的是要不要研議他是個必要的要不要研議總統已經講得非常的清楚\n\n12:58.287 --> 13:13.195\n兩個必須三個原則只要符合兩個必須三個原則他就可以研議所以我就不知道說這個公投的命題而且特別為我屏東的這個核電廠去做一個公投那為什麼不一起談核一核二\n\n13:13.675 --> 13:34.014\n何氏呢他也是在谈核电的原意如果说今天是一个确实的命题那么他应该讨论的是核电要不要原意而不是说核酸要不要原意在这个命题我的个人的观点跟我小代表的我的这个知识告诉我\n\n13:34.895 --> 14:03.475\n正確的事情我們都支持所以您剛剛在講說那如果沒有安全那安全是大家共事OK那我們到底要討論什麼挑問請的那麼清清楚楚沒有安全什麼可能可能延誼啊對不對而且柏定你的問題我回答你我是民眾黨黨團負責提案說明的委員為什麼當初訂的這個是河山延誼沒有其他河山因為去年的河山剛剛大體檢過嘛它是最安全的嘛\n\n14:04.710 --> 14:33.387\n所以我們才從核三做起啊所以我們也保定你核三年曆823過了之後你就可以進一步去討論核二或者是核四廠要不要體檢嘛你先跨出一個最安全的核三它最新嘛對不對統新而且它去年你花了那麼多錢它剛大稅休完它又是最安全的保定現在喔現在立法院的立法委員正在核三廠在考察我們也確認它是安全的它的那個十四除人潮\n\n14:34.622 --> 15:02.445\n就是這個燃料棒用完之後出來它又可以用四年喔目前最安全的就是核酸嘛所以先從核酸做起嘛我想不能夠救我來你看一下核廢料問題來保定化加特的核廢料核廢料上一張你一直在講這個三原則安全全世界在用核電的那麼多國家哪一個國家不認為安全要不然他怎麼敢用\n\n15:03.379 --> 15:19.869\n核廢料的處理核廢料美國有問題嗎美國的AID處長還跟你講不只是技術設備連核廢料他都可以幫忙處理全世界現在核廢料有任何地方有問題嗎現在台灣的核一廠核二廠核三廠核廢料現在可能\n\n15:24.517 --> 15:52.139\n它在核一核二都在這個這個它廠區裡面啊對嘛全世界也是這樣嘛全世界有哪一個人跟你哪一個國家跟你講說它核廢料有問題沒有啊沒有沒有沒有沒有啊那個委員我跟您報告日本日本的這個地形跟我們是差不多的日本有很多已經停的這個核電廠到現在都沒有重啟\n\n15:53.857 --> 16:21.631\n那你認為他為什麼沒有重啟我想還是一樣我們要由專家來考慮他的安全問題嘛你知不知道民進黨昨天做了一個做了一個發文被那個日本打臉嗎就是你剛講的那個日本的記者是打臉你民進黨啊昨天竟然說核電重啟不是國際歧視他引用的就是你剛講引用日本結果一部分的媒體馬上出來打臉他他講了這段話我講給你聽\n\n16:23.595 --> 16:52.241\n他說你民進黨怎麼可以講說我們日本什麼自賀二號機敦賀二號機這些重啟有困難日本的電器新聞直接打臉他說沒有啊什麼自賀二號機地震前跟後日本的科學的評估都是一致根本沒有問題更重要的日本政府已經提出了2025年的他們能源基本計畫裡面明定第一個他們要拖碳就是減碳\n\n16:53.356 --> 17:02.590\n第二個為了電力的需求所以他們要用最大的限度去活化核能這個核能現在是日本的能源主軸\n\n17:04.264 --> 17:31.257\n日本昨天打臉了民進黨結果你今天臉都臭了又被打了沒有報告委員我們在討論的你就是很容易把他shift到別的地方去啊但是因為你講的跟昨天民進黨一樣人家很清楚跟你講日本你要講日本啊日本就是他們認為安全啊來我給你看來保定來看下一張保定日本目前保定你這樣講我們日本總有歸宿歸宿還沒有恢復嘛你這樣實在很好啊來來來保定你看來來來保定看\n\n17:33.157 --> 17:55.131\n日本目前有33座核電的基礎到2024年11月他有7座電廠的13個反應爐本來是3個有6座對不對日本現在已經有恢復了7座電廠13座反應爐在運轉了他們的目標是後面這個更重要他們一直在增加2023年要恢復到20\n\n17:57.625 --> 18:07.170\n所以日本不是你講的不然日本人很重視安全啊啊你一講說日本沒有恢復所以日本人家出來抗議我沒有講說日本沒有恢復那委員你又再斷章取義囉\n\n18:08.885 --> 18:29.373\n又在斷章取義我沒有講這句話我是講說日本也有沒有還沒恢復的這個電廠他說扛聖的問題就是安全的問題嘛是啊你也是同意是安全的問題啊是不是這樣但是我的意思是說安全的問題不能夠用公投來決定嘛\n\n18:30.353 --> 18:59.491\n安全的問題一定要專家決定嘛對不對譬如說我們如果有一台車這台車載40噸啊大家也認為說40噸還可以開啊問題是不是我們兩個掛電說它可以開就可以開嘛一定要電機技師所有的這個專家來決定說它可以開對啊所以要你們所以這個問題就是不是用公投就可以來決定說它是不是要重啟啊這個安全的責任政府就要負啊\n\n19:00.529 --> 19:13.181\n所以安全不是這次公投的題目你要投的是要不要研議那政府本來在核管法在這次公投的條文裡面就是我們在講過了總統也講過非常清楚前世界哪一個國家會在不確定是安全的時候會重啟核電你都要說40年有沒有研究美國啊\n\n19:25.011 --> 19:28.018\n美國現在有94座的核電機組其中89座都是超過40年\n\n19:34.216 --> 19:51.127\n40年當然是安全的啦所以所以剛剛人家講的日本有些人超過40年他經過安全測試之後確定安全他就用了嘛美國也是一樣嘛所以來來我跟你講我也是在講抱歉可能要快一點那個等一下民進黨立委說我站太多時間我今天給你很多時間講法\n\n20:04.396 --> 20:32.152\n我剛才在講保定我們的台電是很優秀的我們合一廠合二廠合三廠在國際評比我們的車都保養得很好都是名列前茅對自己有信心而且我們機器跟技術都是美國來的安全的問題一定要專家講保定你想要對自己這麼沒有信心我剛才在講黃岑欣說你們不要汙染核電安全的問題一定要專家鑑定安全的問題一定要專家鑑定不能靠民眾大家的意識來決定他是不是可以做\n\n20:32.572 --> 20:55.109\n你這樣是完全不尊重民意不然你怎麼這樣說民意是民意的部分我們一定尊重對啊你剛才說不是友好人來學沒有安全的事情為什麼要公投這是一個全民意志的展現嘛就你在講三條件的共識嘛你當然要尊重民意啦好啦我知道我時間再拖下去不行了那個主席都已經大家看完我告訴你馬上823就要公投了大後天啦\n\n20:56.610 --> 21:22.955\n我們現在結議文跟提案文裡面都清楚講它是一個便宜的店穩定的店乾淨的店我也很希望就是說823如果通過了這個門檻之後你本來就依法要做嘛希望你如果留下來好好去推動整個河山廠可是我告訴你河山廠是最新的去年底剛剛提醒過請好好去做事讓河山廠可以趕快研立謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝那我們現在休息10分鐘\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":28.679,"text":"人做尋答張旗開委員質詢完我們休息來 請請郭部長郭部長"},{"start":36.482,"end":54.138,"text":"委員好 部長今天答詢的時候笑容有比較多會講同理心跟人機幾機 人力幾力今天看起來是比較氣定神閒這段時間在傳你的去留賴總統或者是左院長沒有跟你聊到這個事情"},{"start":56.584,"end":85.848,"text":"我的去留我想這個不是我可以決定如果我可以決定我就會跟您報告那第二個我在這個什麼時候去留我想來是偶然來是偶然去是必然所以我在在位的每一天我就是全力以赴我之前也講過了我一天當作兩天在在努力所以我每天做的工作的時間其實超過八個小時"},{"start":87.649,"end":108.95,"text":"希望是一個大家會肯定的經濟部的這個部長那老實講事實上在去年的6月13號那時候我就諮詢過你了那時候你在討論說你會不會是誤闖從你的小白兔可是那時候你的民調是很高啊你剛從企業來的時候我要提醒你說那時候王美花還任期了1431天希望你可以多做一點不過更重要的不是短跟"},{"start":110.188,"end":123.785,"text":"常的問題啦 是人民知道你要做什麼事情所以你如果再留下來下個禮拜我會繼續再質詢到你你下禮拜留下來當經濟部長你有沒有什麼事情很想做的你覺得你現在很急著要把它完成的"},{"start":129.684,"end":146.531,"text":"我們現在經濟部最重要的工作最重要的工作有兩項第一項就是在災區救災的事情第二項就是協助這個談判小組談關稅的問題還有你答應的事情 把它做完 來"},{"start":148.666,"end":170.945,"text":"你上次在這邊質詢 打詢的時候 還有你去看了一些地方 你做了一些引漏包括 你跟我說自己的新聞 製膨紙上面那個損壞的光電板的時候 你有做了一個承諾嘛你說你有把握 這個一定要清除完畢啊所以報告委員 我們你所指責的那個部分 我們都已經從水裡面把它清到上面 滷上來了"},{"start":172.71,"end":193.144,"text":"但是對就是說因為他的這個受災的這個情形還蠻嚴重的我想大家都清楚但是大家都關心他在水上是不是會造成大家水源的擔心所以我們第一優先我在講七月把它清除完他的意思就是說從水裡面把它移到路上"},{"start":194.125,"end":208.895,"text":"那我們也用最快的速度坦白講那個如果說讓廠商自己去做大概要兩個月但是我們考慮到委員的這個關心所以我們是在七天裡面就把它完成那個是我整個水利署"},{"start":210.305,"end":239.563,"text":"完全投入然后把我们水利署的公班然后来帮助他们来清除的大家都很清楚嘛就是风灾是不是一个某个区域产生了而且很大量的这个要处理事实上厂商他已经没有办法靠自己独自的能力去完成这个修复的事情所以也谢谢委员的这个关心所以我们也就是说请我们水利署的公班"},{"start":240.928,"end":269.295,"text":"甚至於這一次包括嘉義的救災都是一樣我們現在已經協調出我們整個都協調出來把那個嘉義台南高雄的公共工程的工班工作全部停下來全部進入救災全部進入救災當然彰化也有我想這個召委這我們彰化也是一樣在處理這幾個地區的公共工程的工班"},{"start":270.666,"end":291.977,"text":"全部先停一下子公共工程然後所有的公班都進入災區搶救這個災民這個做法我想我們也是跟委員一樣我們都是人力極力自己感受到那個情境我想委員我們在災區也碰過好幾次我搭高鐵我們也碰了好幾次"},{"start":293.098,"end":319.824,"text":"我們都可以了解在那個時期要靠我們的受災戶自己去解決問題其實是非常難的所以政府的態度政府的態度就是用政府的力量但是政府的工程可以稍微緩一下緩一個月緩兩個月沒有關係但是受災區我們希望受災區所有的災民能夠早一日回到平日的這樣的一個生活這一點我想"},{"start":320.984,"end":347.882,"text":"委員在關心 我想委員也很會認同我們這樣的做法最近這幾個禮拜的農曆大家有看嗎包括形象看起來都有改變了啦大家有肯定 不過我要提醒你現在人民期待不是只有從這個自動池把它繞上來人民現在期待 本來就是說你所謂的清除碗應該就放回去整個回收處理廠嘛 對不對那現在 現在碰到兩個問題部長我要跟你講 兩個非常嚴重的問題第一 有些光電板"},{"start":350.072,"end":363.631,"text":"撈上來之後放到你經濟部台廠的土地上面去了另外一個問題等一下我跟你講這個是吹哨者來檢取讓你到了當地去拍的我給你看 左下角這個左下角這張圖"},{"start":365.404,"end":387.899,"text":"你這個光電的浮板跟這個光電板放下來這在廢氣屋處理法上面是明明確確規定喔你要一個不透水的那個那個像環布啊那個鋪面要有嘛對不對你看那個都沒做啦所以這個有汙染要可能要你要把它做好了好不好然後又 抱歉抱歉我還沒說完那像右邊這些你看那個土這樣挖起來"},{"start":388.86,"end":413.772,"text":"你一些那個重型機器裡面去 那個油都漏下來所以整個污染要把它處理好 要處理得好誰啦第一 本來我都提前一年這個是 他現在應該是回到回收處理廠去處理 這專業的那沒有的話 他應該也要把它做好整個那個不要被污染 這是一個第二個 現在就是 環境部部長最近看了幾次"},{"start":415.454,"end":443.431,"text":"去看了幾次 他發現有些製紡紙 你們管的嘛這光電板是你們管的 光電是你們管的他現在放在什麼地方 不是放到台塘土地喔你看你那個製紡紙旁邊的那個道路提案就開始把它碎掉了把那個浮板就碎掉了 結果那個塑膠那個顆粒就滿天飛 滿天飄這邊你也在碎 台塘也在碎 農地受到影響然後環境部長去看那邊的農地跟道路又受到影響"},{"start":445.154,"end":472.005,"text":"這個你去規範一下吧 避免這個農地的污染好不好是 謝謝委員好 委員要講事情 我要跟您討論一下前陣子引起很大討論的這個河山場那個木林經費那個事情你後來有沒有檢討 有沒有發現出了什麼問題 為什麼那時候那麼多人在罵你我是是這個樣子 我想委員你也很清楚我來當這個部長之前我是大學的教授"},{"start":473.288,"end":476.373,"text":"我是社會科學的研究者我想你也很清楚"},{"start":477.503,"end":503.143,"text":"你也写过论文我们在做民调的时候通常有一些变数关系为了要确实的去了解消费者的意愿的时候我们会把一些变数拿掉我只是说敦青牧林会是其中的一个变数但是我想因为当初他们在讲说我们整个我们恒春的乡亲有77%的人是支持的"},{"start":503.715,"end":529.17,"text":"但是我做一个科学研究者我想我们会对这样的一个命题的解读会提出说我们是不是要再研究一下真正的了解我对这个这个敦青木林废啊我认为这个是没有问题的我们台电到每一个地方去都有敦青木林废嘛我相信我我相信我们恒春的这些这些怎么讲我的"},{"start":530.231,"end":542.129,"text":"同鄉的這個...你也變成同人了我變成同人 但是我不可能...你講其他講的情色必要的話可能都要道歉因為你會不會講太快我不是道歉我這個大家的看法不太一樣"},{"start":543.328,"end":561.082,"text":"我只是就一個他的民調的上部上那個問題我在就教於這個委員但是他把我歪樓到別的地方去說我我說我們的這個屏東的這個城村的鄉民是喜歡這個東西這個是完全是"},{"start":562.793,"end":579.172,"text":"您認為這個合理嗎委員你也是社會科學的支持者吧其實民眾為什麼會罵你會那麼抗議其實你那個講法你忽略一個非常重要河山場旁邊附近的居民那四個鄉鎮他們為什麼希望河山可以嚴厲"},{"start":581.038,"end":609.191,"text":"一個跟台電的員工對 你聽我講對台電員工的付出跟努力有很大的關係因為你的員工台電的員工在河山場把他經營得非常好他們不只蹲進木林喔他們安全在全世界每次評比都是名列前茅啊所以那個居民才會覺得安全啊所以他們肯定 聽我講他們希望河山可以營利他們肯定台電這段時間的付出你知道嗎"},{"start":610.267,"end":620.065,"text":"河山厂的厂长 副厂长他们都在那边买房子结婚生子他们很多人退休都是在那边生活"},{"start":621.141,"end":648.123,"text":"他們跟居民已經融為一體了這個才是真正為什麼附近的居民希望河山可以繼續原理因為他們經歷的是安全嘛所以他們才會接受你一直在講說什麼慕尼基金那一塊你就傷了他們的心你為什麼不去看台電員工的付出還有這段時間他們對國家的貢獻我同意委員你的說法委員我同意您的說法只是說如果說我們在做這個社會科學的討論的時候"},{"start":649.892,"end":675.627,"text":"我們可以做一次測試啊可以做一次測試來做一次民調我只是就民調的部分在跟他討論不是說對這個敦俊慕林會這件事情在做討論所以那個命題不一樣結果會不一樣我想這個委員你應該可以支持我的說法要不然台電的員工他也覺得心寒或覺得說沒有被重視"},{"start":676.047,"end":700.553,"text":"他們這麼付出你經濟部長一定肯定沒有沒有沒有也要肯定河山產生不經濟力對我們經濟發展的貢獻你要考慮我們屏東人的心情喔為什麼我們屏東的人要來忍受核電廠在我屏東由這個全國的人來決定屏東人要接受這個河山的研議呢為什麼合一合二合四不研議呢保定"},{"start":701.073,"end":720.898,"text":"河山廠很安全啊 國際模範生為什麼你會有個概念你去看民調啊 否定不只是河山廠附近的四個鄉鎮的居民超過七成以上都要求河山廠營利你整體的民調裡面河山廠支持連個屏東人支持河山廠比例還是比較高的"},{"start":721.838,"end":746.391,"text":"你要去看民調 你不要自己以為說你現在要推動賴總統不要核酸 或者總統不要核酸欸 你就汙名化核酸連你的好朋友黃承信都講了 不要汙名化核冷核酸廠是安全的好 另外我要問你一個 你看報告委員 報告委員核酸廠是不是安全 必須要由專家來決定而不是靠民調來決定安全這個命題 絕對不能夠是用民調來決定對嘛 這個是裡面"},{"start":748.092,"end":776.875,"text":"安全必須要由專家來決定的事情你講這個就沒專家了 我跟你講我這個是非常專業的這個就是現在很多民眾在罵你們的這次的河山公投有提到說要投那個安全嗎安全是必要的在河管法修正的時候裡面就清楚要經過安全檢查確定以後他才可以研議這次我們要投的是要不要研議他是個必要的要不要研議總統已經講得非常的清楚"},{"start":778.287,"end":793.195,"text":"兩個必須三個原則只要符合兩個必須三個原則他就可以研議所以我就不知道說這個公投的命題而且特別為我屏東的這個核電廠去做一個公投那為什麼不一起談核一核二"},{"start":793.675,"end":814.014,"text":"何氏呢他也是在谈核电的原意如果说今天是一个确实的命题那么他应该讨论的是核电要不要原意而不是说核酸要不要原意在这个命题我的个人的观点跟我小代表的我的这个知识告诉我"},{"start":814.895,"end":843.475,"text":"正確的事情我們都支持所以您剛剛在講說那如果沒有安全那安全是大家共事 OK那我們到底要討論什麼挑問請的那麼清清楚楚沒有安全什麼可能 可能延誼啊對不對而且柏定你的問題我回答你我是民眾黨黨團負責提案說明的委員為什麼當初訂的這個是河山延誼沒有其他河山因為去年的河山剛剛大體檢過嘛它是最安全的嘛"},{"start":844.71,"end":873.387,"text":"所以我們才從核三做起啊所以我們也 保定你核三年曆823過了之後你就可以進一步去討論核二或者是核四廠要不要體檢嘛你先跨出一個最安全的核三它最新嘛 對不對統新而且它去年你花了那麼多錢它剛大稅休完它又是最安全的保定 現在喔現在立法院的立法委員正在核三廠在考察我們也確認它是安全的它的那個十四除人潮"},{"start":874.622,"end":902.445,"text":"就是這個燃料棒用完之後出來它又可以用四年喔目前最安全的就是核酸嘛所以先從核酸做起嘛我想不能夠救我來 你看一下核廢料問題來 保定化加特的核廢料核廢料 上一張你一直在講這個三原則安全 全世界在用核電的那麼多國家哪一個國家不認為安全要不然他怎麼敢用"},{"start":903.379,"end":919.869,"text":"核廢料的處理核廢料美國有問題嗎美國的AID處長還跟你講不只是技術設備連核廢料他都可以幫忙處理全世界現在核廢料有任何地方有問題嗎現在台灣的核一廠 核二廠 核三廠核廢料現在可能"},{"start":924.517,"end":952.139,"text":"它在核一核二都在這個這個它廠區裡面啊對嘛全世界也是這樣嘛全世界有哪一個人跟你哪一個國家跟你講說它核廢料有問題沒有啊沒有沒有沒有沒有啊那個委員我跟您報告日本日本的這個地形跟我們是差不多的日本有很多已經停的這個核電廠到現在都沒有重啟"},{"start":953.857,"end":981.631,"text":"那你認為他為什麼沒有重啟我想還是一樣我們要由專家來考慮他的安全問題嘛你知不知道民進黨昨天做了一個做了一個發文被那個日本打臉嗎就是你剛講的那個日本的記者是打臉你民進黨啊昨天竟然說核電重啟不是國際歧視他引用的就是你剛講引用日本結果一部分的媒體馬上出來打臉他他講了這段話我講給你聽"},{"start":983.595,"end":1012.241,"text":"他說你民進黨怎麼可以講說我們日本什麼自賀二號機敦賀二號機這些重啟有困難日本的電器新聞直接打臉他說沒有啊 什麼自賀二號機地震前跟後 日本的科學的評估都是一致根本沒有問題 更重要的日本政府已經提出了2025年的他們能源基本計畫裡面明定第一個 他們要拖碳 就是減碳"},{"start":1013.356,"end":1022.59,"text":"第二個為了電力的需求所以他們要用最大的限度去活化核能這個核能現在是日本的能源主軸"},{"start":1024.264,"end":1051.257,"text":"日本昨天打臉了民進黨結果你今天臉都臭了又被打了沒有 報告委員我們在討論的你就是很容易把他shift到別的地方去啊但是因為你講的跟昨天民進黨一樣人家很清楚跟你講日本 你要講日本啊日本就是他們認為安全啊來 我給你看來 保定來看下一張保定 日本目前保定 你這樣講我們日本總有歸宿歸宿還沒有恢復嘛你這樣實在很好啊來來來 保定你看來來來 保定看"},{"start":1053.157,"end":1075.131,"text":"日本目前有33座核電的基礎到2024年11月他有7座電廠的13個反應爐本來是3個有6座對不對日本現在已經有恢復了7座電廠13座反應爐在運轉了他們的目標是後面這個更重要他們一直在增加2023年要恢復到20"},{"start":1077.625,"end":1087.17,"text":"所以日本不是你講的不然日本人很重視安全啊啊你一講說日本沒有恢復所以日本人家出來抗議我沒有講說日本沒有恢復那委員你又再斷章取義囉"},{"start":1088.885,"end":1109.373,"text":"又在斷章取義我沒有講這句話我是講說日本也有沒有還沒恢復的這個電廠他說扛聖的問題就是安全的問題嘛是啊你也是同意是安全的問題啊是不是這樣但是我的意思是說安全的問題不能夠用公投來決定嘛"},{"start":1110.353,"end":1139.491,"text":"安全的問題一定要專家決定嘛對不對譬如說我們如果有一台車這台車載40噸啊大家也認為說40噸還可以開啊問題是不是我們兩個掛電說它可以開就可以開嘛一定要電機技師所有的這個專家來決定說它可以開對啊所以要你們所以這個問題就是不是用公投就可以來決定說它是不是要重啟啊這個安全的責任政府就要負啊"},{"start":1140.529,"end":1153.181,"text":"所以 安全不是這次公投的題目你要投的是要不要研議那政府本來在核管法在這次公投的條文裡面就是我們在講過了 總統也講過非常清楚前世界哪一個國家會在不確定是安全的時候會重啟核電你都要說40年有沒有研究美國啊"},{"start":1165.011,"end":1168.018,"text":"美國現在有94座的核電機組其中89座都是超過40年"},{"start":1174.216,"end":1191.127,"text":"40年當然是安全的啦所以所以剛剛人家講的日本有些人超過40年他經過安全測試之後 確定安全他就用了嘛美國也是一樣嘛所以來來 我跟你講我也是在講抱歉 可能要快一點那個等一下民進黨立委說我站太多時間我今天給你很多時間講法"},{"start":1204.396,"end":1232.152,"text":"我剛才在講 保定我們的台電是很優秀的我們合一廠 合二廠 合三廠在國際評比我們的車都保養得很好都是名列前茅 對自己有信心而且我們機器跟技術都是美國來的安全的問題一定要專家講保定你想要對自己這麼沒有信心我剛才在講 黃岑欣說你們不要汙染核電安全的問題一定要專家鑑定安全的問題一定要專家鑑定不能靠民眾大家的意識來決定他是不是可以做"},{"start":1232.572,"end":1255.109,"text":"你這樣是完全不尊重民意 不然你怎麼這樣說民意是 民意的部分我們一定尊重對啊 你剛才說不是友好人來學沒有安全的事情為什麼要公投 這是一個全民意志的展現嘛就你在講三條件的共識嘛你當然要尊重民意啦 好啦我知道我時間再拖下去不行了那個主席都已經 大家看完我告訴你 馬上823就要公投了 大後天啦"},{"start":1256.61,"end":1282.955,"text":"我們現在結議文跟提案文裡面都清楚講它是一個便宜的店穩定的店 乾淨的店我也很希望就是說823如果通過了這個門檻之後你本來就依法要做嘛希望你如果留下來好好去推動整個河山廠可是我告訴你河山廠是最新的去年底剛剛提醒過請好好去做事讓河山廠可以趕快研立 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝那我們現在休息10分鐘"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":448,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時28分）先請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，今天答詢的時候笑容有比較多，會講同理心跟「人飢己飢，人溺己溺」了，今天看起來是比較氣定神閒。這段時間在傳你的去留，賴總統或卓院長有沒有跟你聊到這件事情？"],["郭部長智輝：我的去留不是我可以決定的，如果我可以決定，我就會跟您報告。第二個，我什麼時候去留？我想來是偶然，去是必然，所以我在位的每一天，我就是全力以赴。我之前也講過，我一天當成兩天在努力，所以我每天工作時間超過8個小時。"],["張委員啓楷：很好，希望是一個大家會肯定的經濟部部長。老實講，在去年6月13日我就質詢過你了，那時候在討論你會不會是誤闖叢林的小白兔，可是那時候你的民調很高，你剛從企業來的時候，我還提醒你說，王美花的任期是1,431天，希望你可以多做一點。不過最重要的不是短或長的問題，而是人民知道你要做什麼事情。所以你如果再留下來，下個禮拜我會繼續再質詢到你，如果你留下來當經濟部長，有沒有什麼事情是你很想做的，是你現在很急著想要把它完成的？你剛剛在講災後的復原跟重建嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，現在經濟部最重要的工作有兩項，第一項就是在災區救災的事情，第二項就是協助談判小組談關稅的問題。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，還有你答應的事情要把它做完，你上次在這邊答詢的時候，你去看的一些地方，也做了一些允諾，包括嘉義新塭的滯洪池上面損壞的光電板，你有做了一個承諾，你說你有把握7月底清除完畢，現在……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，你所指責的那個部分，我們都已經把它從水裡面清到路上來了，但是……"],["張委員啓楷：這樣不夠啦！"],["郭部長智輝：對，因為它的受災情形還滿嚴重的，我想大家都清楚，但是大家都擔心它在水上是不是會造成水源的污染，所以我們第一優先，我在講7月把它清除完畢，意思就是從水裡面把它移到路上。我們也用最快的速度，坦白講，如果讓廠商自己去做，大概要兩個月，但是我們考慮到委員的關心，所以我們是在7天內把它完成，那個是整個水利署完全投入，甚至水利署的工班還去幫他們清除，大家都很清楚，風災不是只是某個區域產生大量的廢棄物要處理，事實上廠商已經沒有辦法靠自己獨自的能力去完成修復的事情。也謝謝委員的關心，所以我們請水利署的工班，甚至這一次包括嘉義的救災，都是一樣，我們現在已經整個都協調出來，讓嘉義、臺南、高雄的公共工程的工班工作全部停下來，全部進入救災，當然彰化也有，彰化也是一樣，在處理這幾個地區的公共工程的工班，全部的公共工程都先停下了，所有的工班都進入災區搶救災民。這個作法，我們也是跟委員一樣，我們都是人溺己溺，自己感受到那個情境。委員，我們在災區也碰過好幾次，我搭高鐵，我們也碰了好幾次，我們都可以了解在那個moment、在那個時期，要靠受災戶自己去解決問題其實是非常難的，所以政府的態度就是用政府的力量，政府的工程可以稍微緩一下，緩一個月、緩兩個月沒有關係，但是我們希望受災區所有的災民都能夠早日回到平日的生活。這一點，既然委員在關心，我想委員也會認同我們這樣的作法。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，最近你這一、兩個禮拜的努力，我們都有看到，包括形象看起來都有改變，大家有肯定。不過我要提醒你，人民期待的不是只有從滯洪池把它撈上來，人民現在期待的是，本來以為你所謂的清除完，應該就是整個放回去回收處理廠，對不對？但現在碰到兩個問題，部長，我要跟你講，有兩個非常嚴重的問題，第一個，有些光電板撈上來之後，放到經濟部所屬台糖的土地上面去了，另外一個問題我等一下再跟你講。這個是吹哨者來檢舉的，是他們到當地去拍的，部長，你看左下角這張圖，這些光電板放下來後，這在廢棄物處理法上有明明確確的規定，你要用一個不透水帆布覆蓋，那個鋪面要有嘛，對不對？你看那個都沒做，這會有污染，你要把它做好。像右邊這些，你看那個土這樣挖起來，一些重型機具到裡面去，油都漏下來了，所以整個污染要把它處理好。此外，我要再提醒部長，它現在應該是回到回收處理廠去做專業的處理，既使沒有，也應該要做好阻隔，讓它不要被污染，這是一個。","第二個，環境部部長先去看了幾次，光電板是你們管的，現在不是放在台糖土地，而是直接放在滯洪池旁邊的道路、堤岸就開始把浮板碎掉了，結果塑膠顆粒就滿天飛、滿天飄，這邊在碎，台糖也在碎，農地受到影響，然後環境部長去看，發現那邊的農地跟道路都受到影響，這個你去規範一下，避免農地污染，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，還有一件事情，我要跟你討論一下。前陣子引起很大討論的核三廠睦鄰經費，你後來有沒有檢討、有沒有發現出了什麼問題？為什麼那時候那麼多人在罵你？"],["郭部長智輝：我想委員也很清楚，我來當部長之前是大學教授，我是社會科學的研究者。我想你也很清楚，你也寫過論文，我們在做民調的時候通常有一些變數關係，為了要確實了解消費者的意願，會把一些變數拿掉。我只是說敦親睦鄰費是其中的一個變數，因為當初他們說恆春的鄉親有77%的人是支持的，但是我作為一個科學研究者，我們對這樣的命題解讀會提出是不是要再研究一下、真正的了解。我認為敦親睦鄰費是沒有問題的，台電到每一個地方都有敦親睦鄰費，我相信這些我恆春的同鄉……"],["張委員啓楷：你也是屏東人。"],["郭部長智輝：我是屏東人，但是我不可能……"],["張委員啓楷：所以你跟鄉親要講清楚，必要的話，可能都得道歉，因為你會不會講太快？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，不是道歉，大家的看法不太一樣，我只是就一個民調的問題就教於委員，但是他把我歪樓到別的地方說，我說屏東恆春的鄉民喜歡敦親睦鄰費，這個是完全……你認為這個合理嗎？委員，你也是社會科學的支持者吧？"],["張委員啓楷：部長，民眾為什麼會罵你、會抗議？其實你那個講法忽略一個非常重要的，核三廠附近四個鄉鎮的居民為什麼希望核三可以延役？跟台電員工的付出跟努力有很大的關係，因為台電員工把核三廠經營得非常好，他們不只敦親睦鄰，它的安全在全世界每次評比都是名列前茅，所以居民才會覺得安全，所以他們是肯定。"],["郭部長智輝：因為……"],["張委員啓楷：你聽我講，他們希望核三可以延役，是肯定台電這段時間的付出。你知道嗎？核三廠的廠長、副廠長都在那邊買房子、結婚生子，他們很多人退休都是繼續在那邊生活，他們跟居民已經融為一體了，這個才是附近居民真正希望核三可以繼續延役的原因，因為他們經歷的是安全，所以才會接受。你卻一直在說睦鄰基金那一塊，就傷了他們的心，你為什麼不去看台電員工的付出，還有這段時間他們對國家的貢獻？核三廠對整個經濟成長……"],["郭部長智輝：我同意委員的說法，只是如果我們在做社會科學討論的時候，可以做一次測試、做一次民調，我只是就……"],["張委員啓楷：你把更重要的變數拿掉了嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：我只是就民調的部分在跟他討論，不是對敦親睦鄰費這一件事情討論，所以那個命題不一樣，結果會不一樣，我想委員應該可以支持我的說法吧？"],["張委員啓楷：我現在是提醒你，你要肯定台電的員工，否則他們會覺得心寒或沒有被重視。他們這麼付出，經濟部長要肯定台電員工的付出，也要肯定核三廠跟附近居民對於經濟發展的貢獻。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有！你要考慮屏東人的心情，為什麼屏東人要忍受核電廠設在屏東？為什麼由全國的人來決定，屏東人要接受核三延役呢？為什麼核一、核二、核四不延役呢？"],["張委員啓楷：部長，核三廠很安全，是國際模範生。為什麼你會有個概念……你去看民調啊！"],["郭部長智輝：您的意思就是核四是不安全的。"],["張委員啓楷：不只是核三廠附近四個鄉鎮的居民超過七成以上都要求核三要延役，整體民調也顯示，屏東人支持核三廠的比例還是比較高的，你要去看民調。你不要自己以為要推動賴總統不要核三或者卓榮泰不要核三，就污名化核三，連你的好朋友黃仁勳都講了，不要污名化核能。核三廠是安全的！另外，我要問你，你剛剛講的那個變數……"],["郭部長智輝：核三廠是不是安全必須要由專家來決定，而不是靠民調來決定，安全這個命題絕對不能夠用民調來決定。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：安全是必須要由專家來決定的事情。"],["張委員啓楷：你說這個就不專業了，我跟你講。"],["郭部長智輝：我提這個是非常專業的。"],["張委員啓楷：這個就是現在很多民眾在罵你們的，這次核三公投有提到要投安全嗎？安全是必要的，在核管法修正的時候就清楚規定，要經過安全檢查確定以後，才可以延役，這次我們要投的是要不要延役。它是必要的……"],["郭部長智輝：有關要不要延役，總統已經講得非常的清楚，有兩個必須、三個原則，只要符合兩個必須、三個原則就可以延役，所以我就不知道這個公投的命題……而且特別為屏東的核電廠公投，為什麼不一起談核一、核二、核四呢？這也是在談核電的延役。如果今天是一個確實的命題，那麼應該討論的是核電要不要延役，而不是核三要不要延役。對這個命題，我個人的觀點跟我的知識告訴我，正確的事情我們都支持，所以您剛剛說安全，安全是大家共識，OK！那我們到底要討論什麼？"],["張委員啓楷：這是政府的責任！條文寫得清清楚楚，沒有安全怎麼可能延役，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，那……"],["張委員啓楷：我回答部長的問題，我是民眾黨黨團負責提案說明的委員，為什麼當初訂的是核三延役，沒有其他的？因為去年核三剛剛大體檢過，它是最安全的，所以我們才從核三做起。823核三延役公投過了之後，你就可以進一步討論核二或者核四廠要不要體檢，你先跨出一個最安全的。核三最新，對不對？最新而且去年花了那麼多錢、剛大歲修完，它又是最安全的。部長，現在立法院的立法委員正在核三廠在考察，我們也確認它是安全的，它的濕式儲能槽在核燃料棒用完之後取出來，又可以用4年，目前最安全的就是核三，所以先從核三做起。"],["郭部長智輝：我想不能夠就某一個……"],["張委員啓楷：你看一下核廢料問題，我跟你討論核廢料。你一直在講三原則──安全，全世界那麼多國家在用核電，哪一個國家不認為安全，要不然怎麼敢用？核廢料的處理，美國有問題嗎？美國AIT處長還跟你講，不只是技術、設備，連核廢料，他都可以幫忙處理。全世界現在有任何地方的核廢料有問題嗎？我問你，現在臺灣核一廠、核二廠、核三廠的核廢料放在哪裡？"],["郭部長智輝：核一、核二都在廠區裡面。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛！全世界也是這樣，全世界有哪一個國家跟你說他的核廢料有問題？沒有啊！"],["郭部長智輝：沒有、沒有、沒有、沒有！日本的地形跟我們是差不多的，日本有很多已經停止運轉的核電廠到現在都沒有重啟，您認為為什麼沒有重啟？我想還是一樣，我們要由專家來考慮它的安全問題，是不是？"],["張委員啓楷：你知道民進黨昨天發了一個文被日本打臉嗎？就是你剛剛講的，日本記者也是打臉你。昨天民進黨竟然說核電重啟不是國際趨勢，引用的就是你剛剛講的日本，結果日本的媒體馬上出來打臉。他講了這段話，我講給你聽，他說民進黨怎麼可以說日本志賀2號機、敦賀2號機等重啟有困難？日本電氣新聞直接打臉，他說沒有啊！志賀2號機地震前跟後，日本的科學評估都是一致的，根本沒有問題。更重要的，日本政府已經提出的2025年能源基本計畫裡面明定，第一個，他們要脫碳，就是減碳；第二個，為了電力的需求，所以他們要用最大的限度去活化核能。核能現在是日本的能源主軸，日本昨天打臉了民進黨，結果你今天臉又湊回來又被打了……"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，部長，我跟你說，來，我給你看一下……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們在討論的，你就是很容易把它shift到別的地方去，是不是？"],["張委員啓楷：就是因為你講的跟昨天的民進黨一樣……"],["郭部長智輝：沒有啊，沒有、沒有、沒有，不一樣……"],["張委員啓楷：人家很清楚的跟你講，日本……"],["郭部長智輝：我剛才在講的……"],["張委員啓楷：他講日本，日本就是他們認為安全啊。部長，我給你看下一張。"],["郭部長智輝：不能這樣講，委員，你這樣……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，日本目前……"],["郭部長智輝：委員，你這樣講，日本總共有幾座，有幾座還沒恢復嘛，你這邊寫得很好啊……"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛，部長你看。日本目前有33座核電機組，到2024年11月共有7個電廠13座反應爐在運轉，像我們本來是3個核電廠有6座反應爐，對不對？日本現在已經恢復運轉的有7個電廠13座反應爐，後面這個更重要，他們還一直在增加耶，日本政府的目標是2030年核能占比要恢復到20%。所以日本不是你講的，日本人很重視安全啊，你一直講說日本沒有恢復，所以人家日本出來抗議，打臉民進黨就是打臉你啊。"],["郭部長智輝：不、不、不、不，我沒有講說日本沒有恢復，委員，你又在斷章取義了喔。又在斷章取義，我沒有講這句話。我是講說日本也有還沒有恢復的電廠，他所concern的問題就是安全的問題嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛，他會每一個，就跟我們每個電廠……"],["郭部長智輝：是啊！你也同意是安全的問題，不是這樣嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：對，但是人家檢討過以後就安全了。"],["郭部長智輝：我的意思是說，安全的問題不能夠用公投來決定嘛，安全的問題一定要專家決定嘛，對不對？譬如說我們有一輛車，這輛車開了40年了，大家也認為開了40年還可以再繼續開，問題是，不是我們兩個決定說它可以開就可以開嘛，一定要包括電機技師等，所有的專家來決定說它可以開。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛，所以要你們在核管法……"],["郭部長智輝：對啊。所以這個問題……"],["張委員啓楷：這個公投裡面就是明定……"],["郭部長智輝：不是用公投就可以來決定，它是不是要重啟。"],["張委員啓楷：我們核安會跟台電都要去檢驗，確定它是安全的嘛。這個安全的責任政府就要負啊，所以安全不是這次公投的題目……"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們……"],["張委員啓楷：公投的題目是要不要延役，那政府本來在核管法，在這次公投的條文裡面，你就是有責任要注意到他的安全……"],["郭部長智輝：我們之前講過了，總統也講得非常清楚兩個必須、三個原則……"],["張委員啓楷：全世界，部長，我跟你講一下，全世界哪一個國家會在不確定是安全的時候重啟核電？","來，部長，我給你看一下，你剛才說用40年後還能不能延用，美國現在有94座的核電機組，其中89座都是超過40年的，40年當然是安全的，所以剛剛你在講的日本，有些也是超過40年，他經過安全測試之後，確定安全他就用了，美國也是一樣。所以，部長，你說。"],["郭部長智輝：我可以說嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉，可能要快一點，等一下民進黨立委說我占用太多時間。"],["郭部長智輝：委員，委員，譬如說……"],["張委員啓楷：我已經給你很多時間講了。"],["郭部長智輝：有一輛美國車開了40年，就算你開的美國車跟我開的美國車是同樣的品牌，但是開車的是不一樣的人，你覺得40年後，那輛車的condition是都一樣的嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，我剛才就跟你說了，部長，我們的台電是很優秀的。我們的核一廠、核二廠、核三廠在國際上的評比，我們的車都保養得很好耶，都是名列前茅，你要對自己有信心。而且我們的機器……"],["郭部長智輝：這個不能自己講啦！安全的問題……"],["張委員啓楷：我們的機器跟技術都是美國來的。"],["郭部長智輝：安全的問題一定要專家講啦！"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你為什麼對自己這麼沒有信心？我剛才說的，黃仁勳說你們不要污染核電……"],["郭部長智輝：不是信心的問題，安全的問題一定要專家鑑定……"],["張委員啓楷：你還一直在污名化，怎麼對自己沒有信心？"],["郭部長智輝：安全的問題一定要專家鑑定……"],["張委員啓楷：你是經濟部長……"],["郭部長智輝：不能靠民眾大家的意志來決定他是不是可以做。"],["張委員啓楷：欸，你這樣是完全不尊重民意耶，部長，你怎麼可以這樣講？"],["郭部長智輝：民意的部分我們一定尊重，但是我的意思……"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，你剛才還說不是由他們來決定。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，安全的事情……"],["張委員啓楷：為什麼要公投？這是全民意志的展現嘛，就你們在講三條件的共識嘛，你當然要尊重民意啦！","好啦，我知道我的時間再拖下去不行了，主席都已經在我看了。","部長，馬上823大後天就要公投了，我們現在決議文跟提案文裡面都清楚地講，核電是便宜的電、穩定的電、乾淨的電，我也很希望就是823如果通過了這個門檻之後，你本來就依法要做嘛，你如果留下來，希望你好好去推動整個核三廠，就像我剛才說的……"],["郭部長智輝：經濟部的立場就是依法行事。"],["張委員啓楷：核三廠是最新的，去年底剛剛體檢過，請好好去落實讓核三廠可以趕快延役。謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝，我們現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時49分）","繼續開會（10時58分）"],["主席：現在請鄭天財委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-20","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","林岱樺","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴瑞隆","李坤城","賴士葆","蔡易餘","邱志偉","張嘉郡","何欣純","陳超明"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-08-20"],"gazette_id":"1147302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長就「協助中小企業災後復原辦理情況」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147302_00001"}}}