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131.768, \"text\": \"家中服務以後不適應然後仲介也沒有協調解決最後解除契約反國然後但是重症者這個家庭就面臨到了照顧的空窗期\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 117.549, \"end\": 117.809, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 117.809, \"end\": 118.07, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"服\", \"start\": 118.07, \"end\": 118.29, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 118.29, \"end\": 118.39, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 118.39, \"end\": 118.671, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 118.671, \"end\": 118.931, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"適\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 118.931, \"end\": 119.131, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 119.131, \"end\": 120.493, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"仲\", \"start\": 120.493, \"end\": 120.814, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"介\", \"start\": 120.814, \"end\": 121.034, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 121.034, \"end\": 121.234, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 121.234, 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\"text\": \"這問題永遠都沒有解決所以在這種狀況裡面而我們的康護外籍康護早就是長照的主要的人手和人力\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"永\", \"start\": 485.846, \"end\": 486.186, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"遠\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 486.186, \"end\": 486.306, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 486.306, \"end\": 486.406, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 486.406, \"end\": 486.526, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 486.526, \"end\": 487.587, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"決\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 487.587, \"end\": 487.827, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 487.827, \"end\": 487.968, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 487.968, \"end\": 488.888, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"種\"}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 488.888, \"end\": 489.329, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 489.329, \"end\": 489.569, \"score\": 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\"end\": 1601.81, \"score\": 0.783}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1601.81, \"end\": 1601.97, \"score\": 0.588}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 1601.97, \"end\": 1602.151, \"score\": 0.759}, {\"word\": \"世\", \"start\": 1602.151, \"end\": 1602.331, \"score\": 0.694}, {\"word\": \"界\", \"start\": 1602.331, \"end\": 1602.451, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1602.451, \"end\": 1602.471, \"score\": 0.007}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 1602.471, \"end\": 1602.491, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1602.491, \"end\": 1602.511, \"score\": 0.465}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 1602.511, \"end\": 1602.551, \"score\": 0.049}, {\"word\": \"嚴\"}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 1602.551, \"end\": 1602.572, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:09,417 --> 00:00:12,600\n好我們是不是請這個洪部長來請部長林委員好部長今天很多委員他好像撿到槍一樣馬上說到底有沒有缺10萬個移工\n\n2\n00:00:27,659 --> 00:00:41,349\n大家知道這個事情會一朝一夕馬上就發生的事情嗎然後大家在講講得好像說移工都源源不絕移工這個市場真的源源不絕嗎這個移工的市場全世界都在搶工那\n\n3\n00:00:42,293 --> 00:00:59,704\n我們今天更應該比說是不是馬上就缺十萬個工更重要的事情要討論比現在有沒有馬上因為這一個月開放了就馬上立即缺十萬個工更重要的事情要討論的是我們的確看到了有一些現象\n\n4\n00:01:00,945 --> 00:01:27,911\n那這一現象包括說整個國家移工的制度都不是掌握在政府手上啦整個國家的移工政策制度全部都掌握在大家習慣都是找仲介啦仲介這一環對移工的生態產業還有整個移工的訓練和專業影響非常大所以所有的案件雇主要去找移工也都是找仲介也不是透過這個政府啦\n\n5\n00:01:30,592 --> 00:01:56,488\n所以仲介掌握的資源都比家庭多比你政府還更全面性的影響在僱主和移工之間扮演很重要的角色現在來了有這種新聞媒體上的報導有一個重症家屬逼透過仲介公司請看護工移工到看護工到僱主這個需要需求的這個\n\n6\n00:01:57,549 --> 00:02:11,768\n家中服務以後不適應然後仲介也沒有協調解決最後解除契約反國然後但是重症者這個家庭就面臨到了照顧的空窗期\n\n7\n00:02:13,137 --> 00:02:41,736\n那也希望仲介可以重新幫忙找移工可是現在仲介卻以重症個案特殊無人願意接案且無適合人選為由消極應對都幫人家找沒有人沒人要顧這件事這樣事情就是這樣啊重症看護的家庭沒有人要接那僱主在這種狀況裡面真的是說我到底是欲哭無淚求助無門啊\n\n8\n00:02:43,417 --> 00:02:58,733\n那現在還有很多的移工來台灣做了幾天以後呢他說我不適應想要換新僱主但是現在很多僱主也是這樣子看護工做不到幾天就說要轉換僱主你如果不讓他轉換僱主就完蛋了如果完蛋了不讓他做\n\n9\n00:03:03,444 --> 00:03:25,051\n他就把你逃走所以你也只能讓他同意他轉換雇主然後不同的仲介再引進不同的這個移工看護工來每個人都要重新適應重新教導重新學習然後大家都住不穩定因為很多移工到台灣來他辛苦所為何來啊要賺錢比較多錢啦\n\n10\n00:03:28,184 --> 00:03:54,549\n這樣在康復工大家都知道廠工跟康復工有加班薪水甚至是雙倍而且廠工勞動條件依照勞基法有保障工時短再怎麼加班都比康復工還要短然後有休假然後薪水又高大家都想要\n\n11\n00:03:55,635 --> 00:04:11,661\n跳板啦康護工其實也很多長工把康護工申請當跳板來了以後不可以轉換僱主就要刷去工廠賺多點休息多點比較足足的所以在這種狀況我們真正的現實是這種狀況真的很多僱主長照康護工的僱主\n\n12\n00:04:24,724 --> 00:04:30,218\n即便有看護工但是也經常遇到這一種衝突怎麼辦啊\n\n13\n00:04:32,732 --> 00:04:54,058\n這些是大問題這種問題現在你以為是重症跟輕症相互排擠而已嗎相互搶工而已嗎不是是家庭看護工跟廠工的雇主在相互搶工這個問題更嚴重那要怎麼辦\n\n14\n00:04:57,455 --> 00:05:24,552\n跟委員說沒有的確剛剛在委員在講的現象我們的確都有看到了那尤其這裡在修法之後其實有些現象其實有在更更嚴重的狀況這事情是我們是都看到的那我們提現在接下來包括發言署裡面我們也希望能夠把包括剛剛在講我們執聘的執聘的資源包括我們執聘中心接下來都希望把功能再做一些強化\n\n15\n00:05:25,072 --> 00:05:43,662\n職聘也一樣啊職聘也是有少了剝削那一環少了仲介那一環啊可是基本結構是家庭看護工沒有沒有像廠工一樣適用勞基法家庭看護工的薪水就遠比廠工加班的時候遠遠的還要少\n\n16\n00:05:44,602 --> 00:06:06,241\n那作為一個移工他就是要賺比較多的家庭看護工能夠給付的薪水就不及於廠工所以如果廠工的雇主特別是在COVID-19那期間連仲介假裝幫你介紹家庭看護工來解約之後同意轉換雇主之後仲介都馬上\n\n17\n00:06:07,509 --> 00:06:09,130\n他只顧著玩家解約馬上引進到工廠去生產線上\n\n18\n00:06:18,191 --> 00:06:39,320\n這種狀況這種結構怎麼處理跟文說明的確這個結構的根源這個結構的根源其實是來自現在這些相對應的照顧的制度裡面變成是其實有很多一般的家庭看護工的雇主尤其是如果他的經濟條件比較沒那麼好的可是他可能還是必須請外籍看護工\n\n19\n00:06:40,060 --> 00:06:46,864\n所以變成是這些僱主跟這個移工看護工之間這個他變成是一個好像\n\n20\n00:06:48,069 --> 00:07:14,747\n你多一點我就少一點的問題這是為什麼我們勞動部一直希望需要更多的長照資源來引入因為如果沒有辦法透過政府的長照資源更多的來引入這一個相互就他就變成是一個相互好像你多一點我就會少一點的這個結構那不管是從看護工的角度或者是從這個僱主的角度來說都會非常非常的辛苦所以這是我們一直在跟衛福部談希望有更多長照資源導入的原因其實講的\n\n21\n00:07:16,788 --> 00:07:36,520\n愛愛妹妹模模糊糊大家在講弱弱相殘因為每一個移工都是弱勢他到台灣來所為何事啊就要賺這麼多回去照顧他的家庭嘛那每一個看護工的雇主身障的家庭重症的家庭他就是弱勢當中的弱勢你說國家要承擔起長照的責任政府就沒愛就沒辦法\n\n22\n00:07:38,661 --> 00:08:04,124\n外服部也沒愛沒辦法的難道這樣子我們就讓他這樣子手段都用完了嗎所以我今天要講說我們現實的層面康護工來了又走來了又走很多啊我們的移工政策都一直著重在說引進引進要穿進去引進進來可是呢沒有源源不絕的康護工引進以後逃跑或是轉到工廠生產線\n\n23\n00:08:05,846 --> 00:08:15,695\n這問題永遠都沒有解決所以在這種狀況裡面而我們的康護外籍康護早就是長照的主要的人手和人力\n\n24\n00:08:17,365 --> 00:08:37,883\n這不是替代這都補充台灣人都沒辦法做然後你弱勢的家庭也只請了市康護工不然你去找長照機構或者是請本國籍全部都請不上去在這種狀況我們手段用清了嗎我現在要告訴你說\n\n25\n00:08:39,397 --> 00:09:03,166\n我告訴你一個狀況就是說照顧是不是一個專業照顧需不需要專業是那不同的失能的家庭的照顧有不同的需求失智者需要的可能是引導和耐心和陪伴中風患者需要的是物理復健和技巧末期的病患可能是需要臨終照顧所以這都是有專業的在這種狀況裡面我現在要講的就是說\n\n26\n00:09:07,216 --> 00:09:30,189\n我們國家還有沒有手段和方法寧的薪水比工廠更糟然後工時勞動條件更差但是仍然有誘因給外籍康復工讓他們覺得暫時寧更糟條件更差忍耐一下未來會更好你覺得有沒有可能有這種誘因和手段\n\n27\n00:09:33,050 --> 00:09:38,186\n的確在一些國家他比方說在這過程裡面他會提供一些訓練或者是一些學習的機會\n\n28\n00:09:40,752 --> 00:10:02,165\n讓這些看護工訓練跟學習的機會換來的還是低報酬長工時我現在不是要講這個我現在跟你講就是說以日本為例他們知道結構性的缺工如果已經是全面性的結構性的缺工他們去開發特定技能的簽證制度\n\n29\n00:10:03,326 --> 00:10:22,193\n特定技能的簽證制度針對特定行業的對人力的補充和需求以餐飲業為例他們外食類的技能簽證分成兩種一個是特定技能一號一個是特定技能二號\n\n30\n00:10:23,453 --> 00:10:41,426\n一號跟二號的差別就是他可以吸菌可以讓你的配偶子女都跟著到日本來常住然後後來取得永久居留權你知道嗎特定技能一號就沒有\n\n31\n00:10:42,651 --> 00:11:04,349\n所以在這種狀況裡面引進特定的簽證制度不但提供他就業機會也而且要當員工一樣對待這外籍移工成為他們職業上的引導者透過政府各種支援的措施包括文化適應形象管理語言訓練技能提升所以在這種狀況裡面移工\n\n32\n00:11:06,690 --> 00:11:31,351\n特別是外籍看護移工如果在台灣的話他就不是短期的填充的補充缺口的人力而是我們要當他是可以培育可以發展的人才我們這裡提供的不只是就業機會未來有可能是全家攜家待眷永久居留\n\n33\n00:11:32,452 --> 00:11:52,432\n我們要把這種移工當成未來可能人才的這個概念帶到我們的長照體系裡面來把它訓練成為長照體系專業可用的可長可久的人力和人才那是不是一種誘因跟我們說我們非常願意\n\n34\n00:11:54,171 --> 00:12:21,697\n參考日本的經驗委員剛剛在講的事情就是日本的技術能力相關的制度所以他設計讓這個技術能力包括有技能的學習減和包括語言的學習跟減和但確實他這一套制度他也涉及到他是在海外的時候在母國的時候就進行這些工作所以我們其實部裡面是非常非常願意來往這個方向來做思考跟規劃的我現在要跟你講的意思是說這是結構性的因素因為大家來\n\n35\n00:12:23,223 --> 00:12:46,610\n家庭看護工的待遇、薪水、工時、勞動條件真的比廠工還要賣得賣都很賣這個結構因素注定了很多人來申請來當家庭看護工之後不久就要當跳板轉換到轉換到我們的工廠裡面而我們知道台灣現在是不允許自由轉換雇主\n\n36\n00:12:47,469 --> 00:13:06,104\n啊因為不允許自由轉換雇主所以仲介都嫁他們完結啊你跟你的老闆完結腰疤炒每天炒才讓你雇主動不動你早上對雇主也沒有好處所以不如同意讓你轉換雇主所以現在現場的衝突就是這樣子這麼嚴重了\n\n37\n00:13:07,816 --> 00:13:25,362\n委員我剛才再讓我補充我們是非常願意跟衛福部一起來討論來思考比方說如果你是有照顧專長的技術人力就是說外籍的技術人力你有照顧專長的話是不是有機會可以進到我們的長照系統裡面擔任一些相對應的角色\n\n38\n00:13:25,982 --> 00:13:53,580\n那当然这里面可能他会需要有语言的学习或者是一些技能的学习那在这中间我们怎么透过公部门的资源来去协助这些语言的学习或技术技能上面的学习让这件事也就是说需要跟长照的体系来结合可是呢在家庭我们现在的长照制度外籍移工的看护就是到个别家庭里面没有什么主管啦我讲的不是主管\n\n39\n00:13:54,502 --> 00:14:12,248\n我講的不是主管我講的是技術人力因為你現在留的時間比較久的話其實你有機會可以轉成技術人力照顧一個適能的人平均要7年到10年我講的是如果他可以成為有技能的有照顧專業的技術人力的時候我們怎麼跟衛福部接下來討論在兩個機制之間有一些結合的點讓這個\n\n40\n00:14:16,790 --> 00:14:32,406\n長照的人這樣這個照顧專長的人力在長照的體系裡面也有角色有位置我們很願意來嘗試這個方向對啊所以次長你來想想看你的想法和做法你覺得可行性是怎麼樣包委員稱呼剛剛黃部長剛說我們我們現在會來兩部那個全力推動啦我如果委員報告其實我們現在已經有兩個機制一個我們在去年\n\n41\n00:14:39,133 --> 00:14:46,058\n我們在福音科技大學我們現在就有一班就是從外南那邊租過來啊在這裡我們有兩年的訓練後他可以在台灣待兩個三年他如果過他們都沒問題這樣我們勞動部就給他一個中階勞動力中階勞動力他如果通過後他最主要在我們機構啊因為我們機構講的是我們溫柔你現在在講家庭看護工的困境你不要講到機構去沒關係\n\n42\n00:15:05,313 --> 00:15:11,778\n機構就適用勞基法啦對啦我如果委員報告我們現在也在鼓勵啊我們現在在那個一年幾萬家庭看護對不對我們也可以訓練訓練後後半他就可以來進入我們這個也是中階勞動力你還會進入哪裡進入哪裡啦進入機構啊\n\n43\n00:15:21,633 --> 00:15:27,956\n我們現在講的是說每一個家庭康復工他如果持續成為家庭康復工要7年到10年譬如說這7年到10年我跟你講喔那股票不會喝在手啦他連續幾天都要賺啦因為沒前途沒未來我們這個喔如果訓練成中階勞動力他的薪資變到3萬喔我有到2萬8啦那個是要轉換料啦\n\n44\n00:15:53,137 --> 00:16:17,327\n你們現在要求薪水多少2萬啦不是啦我在講家庭看護工家庭看護工最低是2萬2萬可是事實上務實面實務面2萬有人嗎現在2萬2現在都2、3萬2、3萬可以跟廠工的薪水待遇比嗎\n\n45\n00:16:20,615 --> 00:16:39,594\n沒有啦委員長根據勞動經濟學這跟你單位生產力也有關係啊結構上的問題為什麼逃跑為什麼待不住因為在家庭看護工一天24小時一年365天你還可以加班費給他不休息不讓他休息\n\n46\n00:16:40,575 --> 00:17:09,887\n然後呢勞動條件這麼差薪水不要說兩萬啦雇主給你三萬人家看他同鄉去工地還有加班的一個月五萬六萬這樣要完結嗎也就是因為剛剛你提到的這些現象所以現在我們也的確我們是很願意再去思考一個重要的事情是這一個看起來他假設他現在是外籍的看護工他的薪資確實比較低如果他可以成為中階的技術工以後\n\n47\n00:17:10,507 --> 00:17:34,025\n那接下來在一個什麼樣子的條件下面有可能可以成為長照體系裡面的議員成為長照體系議員的時候他所可以擁有的國家的協助跟資源就會跟他現在單純你現在不要空中化大餅來我問你們啦想為什麼講你空中化大餅你們國家的資源更多會進來那你短照經費今年就編不夠了啦\n\n48\n00:17:35,171 --> 00:17:41,014\n短照經費不是缺了嗎你們國家資源給外籍看護工兩種一個是勞動部的救安基金移撥出來的短照經費一個是衛福部納入的喘息計畫一年多少錢有夠沒有未來增加80億以上免發數量表要增加多少人你經費有相對應的編列了嗎不要講新增加的\n\n49\n00:18:04,348 --> 00:18:29,321\n這在8月已經完成編列了你編列多少錢來你編列多少錢因為網路上有民眾在7月底的時候反應被通知短照服務的經費不足而在113年執行率是173%在114年的今年到5月的時候5月喔執行率是101%\n\n50\n00:18:33,457 --> 00:18:52,297\n現在短照經費全部沒了然後長照只剩下長照一年84小時跟委員說明上禮拜已經召開就安定管理會那我們補上了這個因為原本的確我們有低估所以我們把差額包括明年的部分我們把它追加補\n\n51\n00:18:52,517 --> 00:19:20,791\n我現在問你是說這麼結構性的問題你說引進國家資源叫這些家庭看護工把自己培養成專業的然後技能上納入我們國家的中級技術專業人力的那麼他可以用國家更多資源國家是有多少資源國家資源不過就長照那84小時多少錢長照多少錢我們現在目前\n\n52\n00:19:21,912 --> 00:19:27,138\n我們這個部分其實跟勞動部我們密切配合啦總共加起來是6億8千6百兩邊加起來6億啊我們本部我們一邊3.4勞動部也幫我們3.4啊這樣總共6億就夠賺\n\n53\n00:19:40,632 --> 00:19:59,863\n6億和20幾萬的家庭康復移工用不不不不是這樣喔我們這是擴大喘息服務喔我們這是擴大喔喘息就是給長照體系阿我們講的是移工納入長照適用喘息所以移工用就會更早囉\n\n54\n00:20:01,204 --> 00:20:16,135\n現在移工的部分就是勞動部的短照服務啊短照服務的過去變兩頁但是我有一件報告我們那是鼓勵大家先來用我們的擴大喘息啦這個我必須要說你加起來六七頁也是很少的啦沒有沒有擴大喘息是六頁喔但是勞動部救援年金金現在又變五頁嘛\n\n55\n00:20:26,755 --> 00:20:45,955\n到8億喔加起來是14億喔那個是普通人也在用的不是外籍移工專用的嘛外籍移工是用多少啦那個擴大喘息服務就是家庭照顧者嘛還有外刊啊短照服務是外刊專用的嘛\n\n56\n00:20:48,638 --> 00:21:14,989\n短照是外籍看護院當時是因為期休一那要讓希望能夠讓這個外籍看護可以有收休所以我們規劃了短照以前是一年預算才兩三億嘛三億嘛今年我剛剛講的113年執行率是173%今年到5月101了所以你才發現不足嘛所以你才追加到五六億嘛本來是三億現在是六億可能五六億嘛可是這夠嗎\n\n57\n00:21:16,249 --> 00:21:35,534\n你剛剛講說我一直跟你講結構上這個問題會造成聘僱外籍移工的家庭跟這個僱主跟移工之間很多的摩擦那個摩擦的目的是為了自由不能自由轉換僱主而去製造衝突讓他可以轉換出去\n\n58\n00:21:36,414 --> 00:21:52,185\n而這一種結構來自於薪資結構的不平等來自於勞動條件上的這個特別惡劣而你沒有辦法解決薪資結構也沒有辦法解決勞動條件的惡劣的狀況下你有沒有透過你的\n\n59\n00:21:53,206 --> 00:22:07,319\n其他的制度比如說像日本的這一種制度設計了可能就未來允許西眷來台灣永久居留類似這種狀況留住這一種看護的人力\n\n60\n00:22:08,288 --> 00:22:25,157\n然後拘留下來讓他可以忍受一時的難處然後看到未來他可以永久拘留而有一個誘因因為這個誘因只存在外籍看護工而廠工可能是門檻更高的\n\n61\n00:22:26,467 --> 00:22:43,558\n類似這樣的機制我們來設計否則你都在打高空叫國家扛起長照責任失能照顧責任國家不願意一直退位然後仰賴仲介仲介控制著市場和政策\n\n62\n00:22:45,094 --> 00:23:05,700\n跟委員說明第一個我們其實現在也正在檢討我們技術人力的制度而技術人力制度的檢討其實也是正在參考日本的做法所以我們近期包括法案署裡面其實也不斷的在跟日本這邊來做交流其實就是希望能夠參考日本相關的做法因為日本的做法其實某些部分真的是值得我們參考的這是第一個\n\n63\n00:23:06,460 --> 00:23:32,225\n第二個的確因為在制度上面如果你可以成為中階的技術人力之後比方說他回去的那個年限就可以打就可以拿掉所以技術人力是可以長期的留下來的是技術人是可以想說為什麼才剛才跟委員在講到說我們很希望怎麼樣來協助我們的移工蘭嶺的移工他可以更順暢的轉成技術人力然後在在這個部分他可能會有相對應的這些權力的保障甚至資源配套更多是\n\n64\n00:23:32,925 --> 00:23:59,767\n阿你剛剛講的資源就只有你們的短照還有這個喘息服務這是不夠的跟文說我的意思不是只有短照我剛才講到如果今天一個照顧的技術人力的話他就可以進到國家的社福的體系裡面國家的社福體系裡面的資源會比他一定只能從僱主尤其是這些一般的僱主來出會來得更加的豐富國家的體系裡面能夠提供的就業的機會是多少啦\n\n65\n00:24:01,879 --> 00:24:18,946\n整個長照失能體系國家都退位照服員你去問照服員的待遇看有問題嗎現在已經到將近上千億了啦我們當然知道\n\n66\n00:24:29,664 --> 00:24:52,816\n現在是趙服員你去問每個失能的家庭配到的時數是多少遠遠少於需求啦這個就是我們知道蔡英文總統任內把她上升到800多億賴總統任內上升到900多億這看到國家可是你知道整個失能照顧的體系不是上千億就足夠的\n\n67\n00:24:54,117 --> 00:25:16,920\n你剛剛講到的那個結構的困境我們都是同意的所以要解這個結構的困境勢必是需要國家的資源進去導入才能夠緩解這個你剛才講包括弱弱相殘的狀況所以包括制度上面跟我說資源包括制度上面因為今天在移工的聘僱的這個體系裡面移工聘僱體系坦白說他的確是一個相對市場機制\n\n68\n00:25:18,021 --> 00:25:30,635\n可是今天在長照的資源面不是市場機制你忘了家庭看護工是我們用政策硬的硬生生的把他從勞基法適用裡面排除掉的這個不是市場機制\n\n69\n00:25:33,358 --> 00:25:55,700\n但是需要一些國家的資源才能夠去緩解剛剛在講的那個結構的困境這個是為什麼我們在跟衛福部一直在包括跟呂次長一直在談我們希望在這裡面未來能夠有所突破那透過的就是透過技術人力能不能成為技術人力或者是讓技術人力相關的配套能夠更健全這部分我們也在參考日本的制度要看得到吃得到\n\n70\n00:25:57,422 --> 00:26:07,573\n實惠而不是口惠是這樣子希望你們回去再想一想啦先這樣子所以我最後再講一句不是在這裡問說有10萬的人很加資格是不是馬上缺10萬不是討論這個東西\n\n71\n00:26:12,719 --> 00:26:16,301\n還有比媽媽最欠六十天更重要的是英文都在欠因為這個勞動上的不公平不平等的結構如果存在的話讓你跟女兒一起也是這個問題啦都是這個問題啦還有不要把她移工當成永遠不絕永遠有啦\n\n72\n00:26:31,249 --> 00:26:42,572\n沒糖好什麼好所以我們真的是要好好思考我們的勞動力政策在未來少子化超高齡化我們台灣的問題也是全世界的問題真的很嚴重來謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9417\t12600\t好 我們是不是請這個洪部長來 請部長林委員好部長 今天很多委員他好像撿到槍一樣馬上說到底有沒有缺10萬個移工\n27659\t41349\t大家知道這個事情會一朝一夕馬上就發生的事情嗎然後大家在講講得好像說移工都源源不絕移工這個市場真的源源不絕嗎這個移工的市場全世界都在搶工那\n42293\t59704\t我們今天更應該比說是不是馬上就缺十萬個工更重要的事情要討論比現在有沒有馬上因為這一個月開放了就馬上立即缺十萬個工更重要的事情要討論的是我們的確看到了有一些現象\n60945\t87911\t那這一現象包括說整個國家移工的制度都不是掌握在政府手上啦整個國家的移工政策制度全部都掌握在大家習慣都是找仲介啦仲介這一環對移工的生態產業還有整個移工的訓練和專業影響非常大所以所有的案件雇主要去找移工也都是找仲介也不是透過這個政府啦\n90592\t116488\t所以仲介掌握的資源都比家庭多比你政府還更全面性的影響在僱主和移工之間扮演很重要的角色現在來了有這種新聞媒體上的報導有一個重症家屬逼透過仲介公司請看護工移工到看護工到僱主這個需要需求的這個\n117549\t131768\t家中服務以後不適應然後仲介也沒有協調解決最後解除契約反國然後但是重症者這個家庭就面臨到了照顧的空窗期\n133137\t161736\t那也希望仲介可以重新幫忙找移工可是現在仲介卻以重症個案特殊無人願意接案 且無適合人選為由消極應對 都幫人家找沒有人 沒人要顧這件事這樣 事情就是這樣啊重症看護的家庭沒有人要接那僱主在這種狀況裡面真的是說我到底是欲哭無淚 求助無門啊\n163417\t178733\t那現在還有很多的移工來台灣做了幾天以後呢他說我不適應想要換新僱主但是現在很多僱主也是這樣子看護工做不到幾天就說要轉換僱主你如果不讓他轉換僱主就完蛋了如果完蛋了不讓他做\n183444\t205051\t他就把你逃走 所以你也只能讓他同意他轉換雇主然後不同的仲介再引進不同的這個移工 看護工來每個人都要重新適應 重新教導 重新學習然後大家都住不穩定 因為很多移工到台灣來他辛苦所為何來啊 要賺錢比較多錢啦\n208184\t234549\t這樣在康復工大家都知道廠工跟康復工有加班薪水甚至是雙倍而且廠工勞動條件依照勞基法有保障工時短再怎麼加班都比康復工還要短然後有休假然後薪水又高大家都想要\n235635\t251661\t跳板啦 康護工其實也很多長工把康護工申請當跳板來了以後 不可以轉換僱主就要刷去工廠 賺多點 休息多點 比較足足的所以在這種狀況 我們真正的現實是這種狀況真的很多僱主 長照康護工的僱主\n264724\t270218\t即便有看護工但是也經常遇到這一種衝突怎麼辦啊\n272732\t294058\t這些是大問題 這種問題現在你以為是重症跟輕症相互排擠而已嗎相互搶工而已嗎 不是是家庭看護工跟廠工的雇主在相互搶工這個問題更嚴重 那要怎麼辦\n297455\t324552\t跟委員說沒有的確剛剛在委員在講的現象我們的確都有看到了那尤其這裡在修法之後其實有些現象其實有在更更嚴重的狀況這事情是我們是都看到的那我們提現在接下來包括發言署裡面我們也希望能夠把包括剛剛在講我們執聘的執聘的資源包括我們執聘中心接下來都希望把功能再做一些強化\n325072\t343662\t職聘也一樣啊職聘也是有少了剝削那一環少了仲介那一環啊可是基本結構是家庭看護工沒有沒有像廠工一樣適用勞基法家庭看護工的薪水就遠比廠工加班的時候遠遠的還要少\n344602\t366241\t那作為一個移工他就是要賺比較多的家庭看護工能夠給付的薪水就不及於廠工所以如果廠工的雇主特別是在COVID-19那期間連仲介假裝幫你介紹家庭看護工來解約之後同意轉換雇主之後仲介都馬上\n367509\t369130\t他只顧著玩家解約馬上引進到工廠去生產線上\n378191\t399320\t這種狀況這種結構怎麼處理跟文說明的確這個結構的根源這個結構的根源其實是來自現在這些相對應的照顧的制度裡面變成是其實有很多一般的家庭看護工的雇主尤其是如果他的經濟條件比較沒那麼好的可是他可能還是必須請外籍看護工\n400060\t406864\t所以變成是這些僱主跟這個移工看護工之間這個他變成是一個好像\n408069\t434747\t你多一點我就少一點的問題這是為什麼我們勞動部一直希望需要更多的長照資源來引入因為如果沒有辦法透過政府的長照資源更多的來引入這一個相互就他就變成是一個相互好像你多一點我就會少一點的這個結構那不管是從看護工的角度或者是從這個僱主的角度來說都會非常非常的辛苦所以這是我們一直在跟衛福部談希望有更多長照資源導入的原因其實講的\n436788\t456520\t愛愛妹妹 模模糊糊大家在講弱弱相殘因為每一個移工都是弱勢他到台灣來所為何事啊就要賺這麼多回去照顧他的家庭嘛那每一個看護工的雇主身障的家庭 重症的家庭他就是弱勢當中的弱勢你說國家要承擔起長照的責任政府就沒愛 就沒辦法\n458661\t484124\t外服部也沒愛沒辦法的難道這樣子我們就讓他這樣子手段都用完了嗎所以我今天要講說我們現實的層面康護工來了又走來了又走很多啊我們的移工政策都一直著重在說引進引進要穿進去引進進來可是呢沒有源源不絕的康護工引進以後逃跑或是轉到工廠生產線\n485846\t495695\t這問題永遠都沒有解決所以在這種狀況裡面而我們的康護外籍康護早就是長照的主要的人手和人力\n497365\t517883\t這不是替代 這都補充 台灣人都沒辦法做然後你弱勢的家庭也只請了市康護工不然你去找長照機構 或者是請本國籍 全部都請不上去在這種狀況 我們手段用清了嗎 我現在要告訴你說\n519397\t543166\t我告訴你一個狀況就是說照顧是不是一個專業照顧需不需要專業是那不同的失能的家庭的照顧有不同的需求失智者需要的可能是引導和耐心和陪伴中風患者需要的是物理復健和技巧末期的病患可能是需要臨終照顧所以這都是有專業的在這種狀況裡面我現在要講的就是說\n547216\t570189\t我們國家還有沒有手段和方法寧的薪水比工廠更糟然後工時勞動條件更差但是仍然有誘因給外籍康復工讓他們覺得暫時寧更糟條件更差 忍耐一下未來會更好你覺得有沒有可能有這種誘因和手段\n573050\t578186\t的確在一些國家他比方說在這過程裡面他會提供一些訓練或者是一些學習的機會\n580752\t602165\t讓這些看護工訓練跟學習的機會換來的還是低報酬長工時我現在不是要講這個我現在跟你講就是說以日本為例他們知道結構性的缺工如果已經是全面性的結構性的缺工他們去開發特定技能的簽證制度\n603326\t622193\t特定技能的簽證制度針對特定行業的對人力的補充和需求以餐飲業為例他們外食類的技能簽證分成兩種一個是特定技能一號一個是特定技能二號\n623453\t641426\t一號跟二號的差別就是他可以吸菌可以讓你的配偶子女都跟著到日本來常住然後後來取得永久居留權你知道嗎特定技能一號就沒有\n642651\t664349\t所以在這種狀況裡面 引進特定的簽證制度不但提供他就業機會 也而且要當員工一樣對待這外籍移工 成為他們職業上的引導者透過政府各種支援的措施 包括文化適應形象管理 語言訓練 技能提升所以在這種狀況裡面 移工\n666690\t691351\t特別是外籍看護移工如果在台灣的話他就不是短期的填充的補充缺口的人力而是我們要當他是可以培育可以發展的人才我們這裡提供的不只是就業機會未來有可能是全家攜家待眷永久居留\n692452\t712432\t我們要把這種移工當成未來可能人才的這個概念帶到我們的長照體系裡面來把它訓練成為長照體系專業可用的可長可久的人力和人才那是不是一種誘因跟我們說我們非常願意\n714171\t741697\t參考日本的經驗委員剛剛在講的事情就是日本的技術能力相關的制度所以他設計讓這個技術能力包括有技能的學習減和包括語言的學習跟減和但確實他這一套制度他也涉及到他是在海外的時候在母國的時候就進行這些工作所以我們其實部裡面是非常非常願意來往這個方向來做思考跟規劃的我現在要跟你講的意思是說這是結構性的因素因為大家來\n743223\t766610\t家庭看護工的待遇、薪水、工時、勞動條件真的比廠工還要賣得賣都很賣這個結構因素注定了很多人來申請來當家庭看護工之後不久就要當跳板轉換到轉換到我們的工廠裡面而我們知道台灣現在是不允許自由轉換雇主\n767469\t786104\t啊因為不允許自由轉換雇主所以仲介都嫁他們 完結啊你跟你的老闆完結 腰疤炒 每天炒才讓你雇主動不動 你早上對雇主也沒有好處所以不如同意讓你轉換雇主所以現在現場的衝突就是這樣子這麼嚴重了\n787816\t805362\t委員我剛才再讓我補充我們是非常願意跟衛福部一起來討論來思考比方說如果你是有照顧專長的技術人力就是說外籍的技術人力你有照顧專長的話是不是有機會可以進到我們的長照系統裡面擔任一些相對應的角色\n805982\t833580\t那当然这里面可能他会需要有语言的学习或者是一些技能的学习那在这中间我们怎么透过公部门的资源来去协助这些语言的学习或技术技能上面的学习让这件事也就是说需要跟长照的体系来结合可是呢在家庭我们现在的长照制度外籍移工的看护就是到个别家庭里面没有什么主管啦我讲的不是主管\n834502\t852248\t我講的不是主管我講的是技術人力因為你現在留的時間比較久的話其實你有機會可以轉成技術人力照顧一個適能的人平均要7年到10年我講的是如果他可以成為有技能的有照顧專業的技術人力的時候我們怎麼跟衛福部接下來討論在兩個機制之間有一些結合的點讓這個\n856790\t872406\t長照的人這樣這個照顧專長的人力在長照的體系裡面也有角色有位置我們很願意來嘗試這個方向對啊所以次長你來想想看你的想法和做法你覺得可行性是怎麼樣包委員稱呼剛剛黃部長剛說我們我們現在會來兩部那個全力推動啦我如果委員報告其實我們現在已經有兩個機制一個我們在去年\n879133\t886058\t我們在福音科技大學我們現在就有一班就是從外南那邊租過來啊在這裡我們有兩年的訓練後他可以在台灣待兩個三年他如果過他們都沒問題這樣我們勞動部就給他一個中階勞動力中階勞動力他如果通過後他最主要在我們機構啊因為我們機構講的是我們溫柔你現在在講家庭看護工的困境你不要講到機構去沒關係\n905313\t911778\t機構就適用勞基法啦對啦 我如果委員報告我們現在也在鼓勵啊我們現在在那個一年幾萬家庭看護對不對我們也可以訓練訓練後 後半他就可以來進入我們這個也是中階勞動力你還會進入哪裡 進入哪裡啦進入機構啊\n921633\t927956\t我們現在講的是說 每一個家庭康復工他如果持續成為家庭康復工 要7年到10年譬如說這7年到10年 我跟你講喔 那股票不會喝在手啦他連續幾天都要賺啦 因為沒前途沒未來我們這個喔 如果訓練成中階勞動力 他的薪資變到3萬喔我有到2萬8啦 那個是要轉換料啦\n953137\t977327\t你們現在要求薪水多少2萬啦不是啦 我在講家庭看護工家庭看護工最低是2萬2萬 可是事實上務實面 實務面2萬有人嗎現在2萬2現在都2、3萬 2、3萬可以跟廠工的薪水待遇比嗎\n980615\t999594\t沒有啦 委員長 根據勞動經濟學 這跟你單位生產力也有關係啊結構上的問題 為什麼逃跑 為什麼待不住因為在家庭看護工一天24小時 一年365天你還可以加班費給他不休息 不讓他休息\n1000575\t1029887\t然後呢 勞動條件這麼差 薪水不要說兩萬啦 雇主給你三萬人家看他同鄉去工地 還有加班的一個月 五萬六萬這樣要完結嗎也就是因為剛剛你提到的這些現象所以現在我們也的確我們是很願意再去思考一個重要的事情是這一個看起來他假設他現在是外籍的看護工他的薪資確實比較低如果他可以成為中階的技術工以後\n1030507\t1054025\t那接下來在一個什麼樣子的條件下面有可能可以成為長照體系裡面的議員成為長照體系議員的時候他所可以擁有的國家的協助跟資源就會跟他現在單純你現在不要空中化大餅來我問你們啦想為什麼講你空中化大餅你們國家的資源更多會進來那你短照經費今年就編不夠了啦\n1055171\t1061014\t短照經費不是缺了嗎你們國家資源給外籍看護工兩種一個是勞動部的救安基金移撥出來的短照經費一個是衛福部納入的喘息計畫一年多少錢 有夠沒有未來增加80億以上免發數量表要增加多少人你經費有相對應的編列了嗎不要講新增加的\n1084348\t1109321\t這在8月已經完成編列了你編列多少錢來你編列多少錢因為網路上有民眾在7月底的時候反應被通知短照服務的經費不足而在113年執行率是173%在114年的今年到5月的時候5月喔執行率是101%\n1113457\t1132297\t現在短照經費全部沒了然後長照只剩下長照一年84小時跟委員說明上禮拜已經召開就安定管理會那我們補上了這個因為原本的確我們有低估所以我們把差額包括明年的部分我們把它追加補\n1132517\t1160791\t我現在問你是說這麼結構性的問題你說引進國家資源叫這些家庭看護工把自己培養成專業的然後技能上納入我們國家的中級技術專業人力的那麼他可以用國家更多資源國家是有多少資源國家資源不過就長照那84小時多少錢 長照多少錢我們現在目前\n1161912\t1167138\t我們這個部分 其實跟勞動部我們密切配合啦總共加起來是6億8千6百兩邊加起來6億啊我們本部我們一邊3.4 勞動部也幫我們3.4啊這樣總共6億就夠賺\n1180632\t1199863\t6億和20幾萬的家庭康復移工用不不不 不是這樣喔我們這是擴大喘息服務喔我們這是擴大喔喘息就是給長照體系 阿我們講的是移工納入長照適用喘息所以移工用就會更早囉\n1201204\t1216135\t現在移工的部分就是勞動部的短照服務啊短照服務的過去變兩頁但是我有一件報告我們那是鼓勵大家先來用我們的擴大喘息啦這個我必須要說你加起來六七頁也是很少的啦沒有沒有 擴大喘息是六頁喔但是勞動部救援年金金現在又變五頁嘛\n1226755\t1245955\t到8億喔 加起來是14億喔那個是普通人也在用的 不是外籍移工專用的嘛外籍移工是用多少啦那個擴大喘息服務就是家庭照顧者嘛 還有外刊啊短照服務是外刊專用的嘛\n1248638\t1274989\t短照是外籍看護院當時是因為期休一那要讓希望能夠讓這個外籍看護可以有收休所以我們規劃了短照以前是一年預算才兩三億嘛三億嘛今年我剛剛講的113年執行率是173%今年到5月101了所以你才發現不足嘛所以你才追加到五六億嘛本來是三億現在是六億可能五六億嘛可是這夠嗎\n1276249\t1295534\t你剛剛講說我一直跟你講結構上這個問題會造成聘僱外籍移工的家庭跟這個僱主跟移工之間很多的摩擦那個摩擦的目的是為了自由不能自由轉換僱主而去製造衝突讓他可以轉換出去\n1296414\t1312185\t而這一種結構來自於薪資結構的不平等來自於勞動條件上的這個特別惡劣而你沒有辦法解決薪資結構也沒有辦法解決勞動條件的惡劣的狀況下你有沒有透過你的\n1313206\t1327319\t其他的制度比如說像日本的這一種制度設計了可能就未來允許西眷來台灣永久居留類似這種狀況留住這一種看護的人力\n1328288\t1345157\t然後拘留下來讓他可以忍受一時的難處然後看到未來他可以永久拘留而有一個誘因因為這個誘因只存在外籍看護工而廠工可能是門檻更高的\n1346467\t1363558\t類似這樣的機制我們來設計否則你都在打高空叫國家扛起長照責任失能照顧責任國家不願意一直退位然後仰賴仲介仲介控制著市場和政策\n1365094\t1385700\t跟委員說明第一個我們其實現在也正在檢討我們技術人力的制度而技術人力制度的檢討其實也是正在參考日本的做法所以我們近期包括法案署裡面其實也不斷的在跟日本這邊來做交流其實就是希望能夠參考日本相關的做法因為日本的做法其實某些部分真的是值得我們參考的這是第一個\n1386460\t1412225\t第二個的確因為在制度上面如果你可以成為中階的技術人力之後比方說他回去的那個年限就可以打就可以拿掉所以技術人力是可以長期的留下來的是技術人是可以想說為什麼才剛才跟委員在講到說我們很希望怎麼樣來協助我們的移工蘭嶺的移工他可以更順暢的轉成技術人力然後在在這個部分他可能會有相對應的這些權力的保障甚至資源配套更多是\n1412925\t1439767\t阿你剛剛講的資源就只有你們的短照還有這個喘息服務這是不夠的跟文說我的意思不是只有短照我剛才講到如果今天一個照顧的技術人力的話他就可以進到國家的社福的體系裡面國家的社福體系裡面的資源會比他一定只能從僱主尤其是這些一般的僱主來出會來得更加的豐富國家的體系裡面能夠提供的就業的機會是多少啦\n1441879\t1458946\t整個長照失能體系 國家都退位照服員 你去問照服員的待遇看有問題嗎現在已經到將近上千億了啦我們當然知道\n1469664\t1492816\t現在是趙服員你去問每個失能的家庭配到的時數是多少遠遠少於需求啦這個就是我們知道蔡英文總統任內把她上升到800多億賴總統任內上升到900多億這看到國家可是你知道整個失能照顧的體系不是上千億就足夠的\n1494117\t1516920\t你剛剛講到的那個結構的困境我們都是同意的所以要解這個結構的困境勢必是需要國家的資源進去導入才能夠緩解這個你剛才講包括弱弱相殘的狀況所以包括制度上面跟我說資源包括制度上面因為今天在移工的聘僱的這個體系裡面移工聘僱體系坦白說他的確是一個相對市場機制\n1518021\t1530635\t可是今天在長照的資源面不是市場機制你忘了家庭看護工是我們用政策硬的硬生生的把他從勞基法適用裡面排除掉的這個不是市場機制\n1533358\t1555700\t但是需要一些國家的資源才能夠去緩解剛剛在講的那個結構的困境這個是為什麼我們在跟衛福部一直在包括跟呂次長一直在談我們希望在這裡面未來能夠有所突破那透過的就是透過技術人力能不能成為技術人力或者是讓技術人力相關的配套能夠更健全這部分我們也在參考日本的制度要看得到 吃得到\n1557422\t1567573\t實惠而不是口惠是這樣子 希望你們回去再想一想啦先這樣子所以我最後再講一句不是在這裡問說有10萬的人很加資格是不是馬上缺10萬不是討論這個東西\n1572719\t1576301\t還有比媽媽最欠六十天更重要的是英文都在欠因為這個勞動上的不公平不平等的結構如果存在的話讓你跟女兒一起也是這個問題啦都是這個問題啦還有不要把她移工當成永遠不絕永遠有啦\n1591249\t1602572\t沒糖好什麼好所以我們真的是要好好思考我們的勞動力政策在未來少子化 超高齡化我們台灣的問題也是全世界的問題真的很嚴重來 謝謝\n","txt":"好 我們是不是請這個洪部長來 請部長林委員好部長 今天很多委員他好像撿到槍一樣馬上說到底有沒有缺10萬個移工\n大家知道這個事情會一朝一夕馬上就發生的事情嗎然後大家在講講得好像說移工都源源不絕移工這個市場真的源源不絕嗎這個移工的市場全世界都在搶工那\n我們今天更應該比說是不是馬上就缺十萬個工更重要的事情要討論比現在有沒有馬上因為這一個月開放了就馬上立即缺十萬個工更重要的事情要討論的是我們的確看到了有一些現象\n那這一現象包括說整個國家移工的制度都不是掌握在政府手上啦整個國家的移工政策制度全部都掌握在大家習慣都是找仲介啦仲介這一環對移工的生態產業還有整個移工的訓練和專業影響非常大所以所有的案件雇主要去找移工也都是找仲介也不是透過這個政府啦\n所以仲介掌握的資源都比家庭多比你政府還更全面性的影響在僱主和移工之間扮演很重要的角色現在來了有這種新聞媒體上的報導有一個重症家屬逼透過仲介公司請看護工移工到看護工到僱主這個需要需求的這個\n家中服務以後不適應然後仲介也沒有協調解決最後解除契約反國然後但是重症者這個家庭就面臨到了照顧的空窗期\n那也希望仲介可以重新幫忙找移工可是現在仲介卻以重症個案特殊無人願意接案 且無適合人選為由消極應對 都幫人家找沒有人 沒人要顧這件事這樣 事情就是這樣啊重症看護的家庭沒有人要接那僱主在這種狀況裡面真的是說我到底是欲哭無淚 求助無門啊\n那現在還有很多的移工來台灣做了幾天以後呢他說我不適應想要換新僱主但是現在很多僱主也是這樣子看護工做不到幾天就說要轉換僱主你如果不讓他轉換僱主就完蛋了如果完蛋了不讓他做\n他就把你逃走 所以你也只能讓他同意他轉換雇主然後不同的仲介再引進不同的這個移工 看護工來每個人都要重新適應 重新教導 重新學習然後大家都住不穩定 因為很多移工到台灣來他辛苦所為何來啊 要賺錢比較多錢啦\n這樣在康復工大家都知道廠工跟康復工有加班薪水甚至是雙倍而且廠工勞動條件依照勞基法有保障工時短再怎麼加班都比康復工還要短然後有休假然後薪水又高大家都想要\n跳板啦 康護工其實也很多長工把康護工申請當跳板來了以後 不可以轉換僱主就要刷去工廠 賺多點 休息多點 比較足足的所以在這種狀況 我們真正的現實是這種狀況真的很多僱主 長照康護工的僱主\n即便有看護工但是也經常遇到這一種衝突怎麼辦啊\n這些是大問題 這種問題現在你以為是重症跟輕症相互排擠而已嗎相互搶工而已嗎 不是是家庭看護工跟廠工的雇主在相互搶工這個問題更嚴重 那要怎麼辦\n跟委員說沒有的確剛剛在委員在講的現象我們的確都有看到了那尤其這裡在修法之後其實有些現象其實有在更更嚴重的狀況這事情是我們是都看到的那我們提現在接下來包括發言署裡面我們也希望能夠把包括剛剛在講我們執聘的執聘的資源包括我們執聘中心接下來都希望把功能再做一些強化\n職聘也一樣啊職聘也是有少了剝削那一環少了仲介那一環啊可是基本結構是家庭看護工沒有沒有像廠工一樣適用勞基法家庭看護工的薪水就遠比廠工加班的時候遠遠的還要少\n那作為一個移工他就是要賺比較多的家庭看護工能夠給付的薪水就不及於廠工所以如果廠工的雇主特別是在COVID-19那期間連仲介假裝幫你介紹家庭看護工來解約之後同意轉換雇主之後仲介都馬上\n他只顧著玩家解約馬上引進到工廠去生產線上\n這種狀況這種結構怎麼處理跟文說明的確這個結構的根源這個結構的根源其實是來自現在這些相對應的照顧的制度裡面變成是其實有很多一般的家庭看護工的雇主尤其是如果他的經濟條件比較沒那麼好的可是他可能還是必須請外籍看護工\n所以變成是這些僱主跟這個移工看護工之間這個他變成是一個好像\n你多一點我就少一點的問題這是為什麼我們勞動部一直希望需要更多的長照資源來引入因為如果沒有辦法透過政府的長照資源更多的來引入這一個相互就他就變成是一個相互好像你多一點我就會少一點的這個結構那不管是從看護工的角度或者是從這個僱主的角度來說都會非常非常的辛苦所以這是我們一直在跟衛福部談希望有更多長照資源導入的原因其實講的\n愛愛妹妹 模模糊糊大家在講弱弱相殘因為每一個移工都是弱勢他到台灣來所為何事啊就要賺這麼多回去照顧他的家庭嘛那每一個看護工的雇主身障的家庭 重症的家庭他就是弱勢當中的弱勢你說國家要承擔起長照的責任政府就沒愛 就沒辦法\n外服部也沒愛沒辦法的難道這樣子我們就讓他這樣子手段都用完了嗎所以我今天要講說我們現實的層面康護工來了又走來了又走很多啊我們的移工政策都一直著重在說引進引進要穿進去引進進來可是呢沒有源源不絕的康護工引進以後逃跑或是轉到工廠生產線\n這問題永遠都沒有解決所以在這種狀況裡面而我們的康護外籍康護早就是長照的主要的人手和人力\n這不是替代 這都補充 台灣人都沒辦法做然後你弱勢的家庭也只請了市康護工不然你去找長照機構 或者是請本國籍 全部都請不上去在這種狀況 我們手段用清了嗎 我現在要告訴你說\n我告訴你一個狀況就是說照顧是不是一個專業照顧需不需要專業是那不同的失能的家庭的照顧有不同的需求失智者需要的可能是引導和耐心和陪伴中風患者需要的是物理復健和技巧末期的病患可能是需要臨終照顧所以這都是有專業的在這種狀況裡面我現在要講的就是說\n我們國家還有沒有手段和方法寧的薪水比工廠更糟然後工時勞動條件更差但是仍然有誘因給外籍康復工讓他們覺得暫時寧更糟條件更差 忍耐一下未來會更好你覺得有沒有可能有這種誘因和手段\n的確在一些國家他比方說在這過程裡面他會提供一些訓練或者是一些學習的機會\n讓這些看護工訓練跟學習的機會換來的還是低報酬長工時我現在不是要講這個我現在跟你講就是說以日本為例他們知道結構性的缺工如果已經是全面性的結構性的缺工他們去開發特定技能的簽證制度\n特定技能的簽證制度針對特定行業的對人力的補充和需求以餐飲業為例他們外食類的技能簽證分成兩種一個是特定技能一號一個是特定技能二號\n一號跟二號的差別就是他可以吸菌可以讓你的配偶子女都跟著到日本來常住然後後來取得永久居留權你知道嗎特定技能一號就沒有\n所以在這種狀況裡面 引進特定的簽證制度不但提供他就業機會 也而且要當員工一樣對待這外籍移工 成為他們職業上的引導者透過政府各種支援的措施 包括文化適應形象管理 語言訓練 技能提升所以在這種狀況裡面 移工\n特別是外籍看護移工如果在台灣的話他就不是短期的填充的補充缺口的人力而是我們要當他是可以培育可以發展的人才我們這裡提供的不只是就業機會未來有可能是全家攜家待眷永久居留\n我們要把這種移工當成未來可能人才的這個概念帶到我們的長照體系裡面來把它訓練成為長照體系專業可用的可長可久的人力和人才那是不是一種誘因跟我們說我們非常願意\n參考日本的經驗委員剛剛在講的事情就是日本的技術能力相關的制度所以他設計讓這個技術能力包括有技能的學習減和包括語言的學習跟減和但確實他這一套制度他也涉及到他是在海外的時候在母國的時候就進行這些工作所以我們其實部裡面是非常非常願意來往這個方向來做思考跟規劃的我現在要跟你講的意思是說這是結構性的因素因為大家來\n家庭看護工的待遇、薪水、工時、勞動條件真的比廠工還要賣得賣都很賣這個結構因素注定了很多人來申請來當家庭看護工之後不久就要當跳板轉換到轉換到我們的工廠裡面而我們知道台灣現在是不允許自由轉換雇主\n啊因為不允許自由轉換雇主所以仲介都嫁他們 完結啊你跟你的老闆完結 腰疤炒 每天炒才讓你雇主動不動 你早上對雇主也沒有好處所以不如同意讓你轉換雇主所以現在現場的衝突就是這樣子這麼嚴重了\n委員我剛才再讓我補充我們是非常願意跟衛福部一起來討論來思考比方說如果你是有照顧專長的技術人力就是說外籍的技術人力你有照顧專長的話是不是有機會可以進到我們的長照系統裡面擔任一些相對應的角色\n那当然这里面可能他会需要有语言的学习或者是一些技能的学习那在这中间我们怎么透过公部门的资源来去协助这些语言的学习或技术技能上面的学习让这件事也就是说需要跟长照的体系来结合可是呢在家庭我们现在的长照制度外籍移工的看护就是到个别家庭里面没有什么主管啦我讲的不是主管\n我講的不是主管我講的是技術人力因為你現在留的時間比較久的話其實你有機會可以轉成技術人力照顧一個適能的人平均要7年到10年我講的是如果他可以成為有技能的有照顧專業的技術人力的時候我們怎麼跟衛福部接下來討論在兩個機制之間有一些結合的點讓這個\n長照的人這樣這個照顧專長的人力在長照的體系裡面也有角色有位置我們很願意來嘗試這個方向對啊所以次長你來想想看你的想法和做法你覺得可行性是怎麼樣包委員稱呼剛剛黃部長剛說我們我們現在會來兩部那個全力推動啦我如果委員報告其實我們現在已經有兩個機制一個我們在去年\n我們在福音科技大學我們現在就有一班就是從外南那邊租過來啊在這裡我們有兩年的訓練後他可以在台灣待兩個三年他如果過他們都沒問題這樣我們勞動部就給他一個中階勞動力中階勞動力他如果通過後他最主要在我們機構啊因為我們機構講的是我們溫柔你現在在講家庭看護工的困境你不要講到機構去沒關係\n機構就適用勞基法啦對啦 我如果委員報告我們現在也在鼓勵啊我們現在在那個一年幾萬家庭看護對不對我們也可以訓練訓練後 後半他就可以來進入我們這個也是中階勞動力你還會進入哪裡 進入哪裡啦進入機構啊\n我們現在講的是說 每一個家庭康復工他如果持續成為家庭康復工 要7年到10年譬如說這7年到10年 我跟你講喔 那股票不會喝在手啦他連續幾天都要賺啦 因為沒前途沒未來我們這個喔 如果訓練成中階勞動力 他的薪資變到3萬喔我有到2萬8啦 那個是要轉換料啦\n你們現在要求薪水多少2萬啦不是啦 我在講家庭看護工家庭看護工最低是2萬2萬 可是事實上務實面 實務面2萬有人嗎現在2萬2現在都2、3萬 2、3萬可以跟廠工的薪水待遇比嗎\n沒有啦 委員長 根據勞動經濟學 這跟你單位生產力也有關係啊結構上的問題 為什麼逃跑 為什麼待不住因為在家庭看護工一天24小時 一年365天你還可以加班費給他不休息 不讓他休息\n然後呢 勞動條件這麼差 薪水不要說兩萬啦 雇主給你三萬人家看他同鄉去工地 還有加班的一個月 五萬六萬這樣要完結嗎也就是因為剛剛你提到的這些現象所以現在我們也的確我們是很願意再去思考一個重要的事情是這一個看起來他假設他現在是外籍的看護工他的薪資確實比較低如果他可以成為中階的技術工以後\n那接下來在一個什麼樣子的條件下面有可能可以成為長照體系裡面的議員成為長照體系議員的時候他所可以擁有的國家的協助跟資源就會跟他現在單純你現在不要空中化大餅來我問你們啦想為什麼講你空中化大餅你們國家的資源更多會進來那你短照經費今年就編不夠了啦\n短照經費不是缺了嗎你們國家資源給外籍看護工兩種一個是勞動部的救安基金移撥出來的短照經費一個是衛福部納入的喘息計畫一年多少錢 有夠沒有未來增加80億以上免發數量表要增加多少人你經費有相對應的編列了嗎不要講新增加的\n這在8月已經完成編列了你編列多少錢來你編列多少錢因為網路上有民眾在7月底的時候反應被通知短照服務的經費不足而在113年執行率是173%在114年的今年到5月的時候5月喔執行率是101%\n現在短照經費全部沒了然後長照只剩下長照一年84小時跟委員說明上禮拜已經召開就安定管理會那我們補上了這個因為原本的確我們有低估所以我們把差額包括明年的部分我們把它追加補\n我現在問你是說這麼結構性的問題你說引進國家資源叫這些家庭看護工把自己培養成專業的然後技能上納入我們國家的中級技術專業人力的那麼他可以用國家更多資源國家是有多少資源國家資源不過就長照那84小時多少錢 長照多少錢我們現在目前\n我們這個部分 其實跟勞動部我們密切配合啦總共加起來是6億8千6百兩邊加起來6億啊我們本部我們一邊3.4 勞動部也幫我們3.4啊這樣總共6億就夠賺\n6億和20幾萬的家庭康復移工用不不不 不是這樣喔我們這是擴大喘息服務喔我們這是擴大喔喘息就是給長照體系 阿我們講的是移工納入長照適用喘息所以移工用就會更早囉\n現在移工的部分就是勞動部的短照服務啊短照服務的過去變兩頁但是我有一件報告我們那是鼓勵大家先來用我們的擴大喘息啦這個我必須要說你加起來六七頁也是很少的啦沒有沒有 擴大喘息是六頁喔但是勞動部救援年金金現在又變五頁嘛\n到8億喔 加起來是14億喔那個是普通人也在用的 不是外籍移工專用的嘛外籍移工是用多少啦那個擴大喘息服務就是家庭照顧者嘛 還有外刊啊短照服務是外刊專用的嘛\n短照是外籍看護院當時是因為期休一那要讓希望能夠讓這個外籍看護可以有收休所以我們規劃了短照以前是一年預算才兩三億嘛三億嘛今年我剛剛講的113年執行率是173%今年到5月101了所以你才發現不足嘛所以你才追加到五六億嘛本來是三億現在是六億可能五六億嘛可是這夠嗎\n你剛剛講說我一直跟你講結構上這個問題會造成聘僱外籍移工的家庭跟這個僱主跟移工之間很多的摩擦那個摩擦的目的是為了自由不能自由轉換僱主而去製造衝突讓他可以轉換出去\n而這一種結構來自於薪資結構的不平等來自於勞動條件上的這個特別惡劣而你沒有辦法解決薪資結構也沒有辦法解決勞動條件的惡劣的狀況下你有沒有透過你的\n其他的制度比如說像日本的這一種制度設計了可能就未來允許西眷來台灣永久居留類似這種狀況留住這一種看護的人力\n然後拘留下來讓他可以忍受一時的難處然後看到未來他可以永久拘留而有一個誘因因為這個誘因只存在外籍看護工而廠工可能是門檻更高的\n類似這樣的機制我們來設計否則你都在打高空叫國家扛起長照責任失能照顧責任國家不願意一直退位然後仰賴仲介仲介控制著市場和政策\n跟委員說明第一個我們其實現在也正在檢討我們技術人力的制度而技術人力制度的檢討其實也是正在參考日本的做法所以我們近期包括法案署裡面其實也不斷的在跟日本這邊來做交流其實就是希望能夠參考日本相關的做法因為日本的做法其實某些部分真的是值得我們參考的這是第一個\n第二個的確因為在制度上面如果你可以成為中階的技術人力之後比方說他回去的那個年限就可以打就可以拿掉所以技術人力是可以長期的留下來的是技術人是可以想說為什麼才剛才跟委員在講到說我們很希望怎麼樣來協助我們的移工蘭嶺的移工他可以更順暢的轉成技術人力然後在在這個部分他可能會有相對應的這些權力的保障甚至資源配套更多是\n阿你剛剛講的資源就只有你們的短照還有這個喘息服務這是不夠的跟文說我的意思不是只有短照我剛才講到如果今天一個照顧的技術人力的話他就可以進到國家的社福的體系裡面國家的社福體系裡面的資源會比他一定只能從僱主尤其是這些一般的僱主來出會來得更加的豐富國家的體系裡面能夠提供的就業的機會是多少啦\n整個長照失能體系 國家都退位照服員 你去問照服員的待遇看有問題嗎現在已經到將近上千億了啦我們當然知道\n現在是趙服員你去問每個失能的家庭配到的時數是多少遠遠少於需求啦這個就是我們知道蔡英文總統任內把她上升到800多億賴總統任內上升到900多億這看到國家可是你知道整個失能照顧的體系不是上千億就足夠的\n你剛剛講到的那個結構的困境我們都是同意的所以要解這個結構的困境勢必是需要國家的資源進去導入才能夠緩解這個你剛才講包括弱弱相殘的狀況所以包括制度上面跟我說資源包括制度上面因為今天在移工的聘僱的這個體系裡面移工聘僱體系坦白說他的確是一個相對市場機制\n可是今天在長照的資源面不是市場機制你忘了家庭看護工是我們用政策硬的硬生生的把他從勞基法適用裡面排除掉的這個不是市場機制\n但是需要一些國家的資源才能夠去緩解剛剛在講的那個結構的困境這個是為什麼我們在跟衛福部一直在包括跟呂次長一直在談我們希望在這裡面未來能夠有所突破那透過的就是透過技術人力能不能成為技術人力或者是讓技術人力相關的配套能夠更健全這部分我們也在參考日本的制度要看得到 吃得到\n實惠而不是口惠是這樣子 希望你們回去再想一想啦先這樣子所以我最後再講一句不是在這裡問說有10萬的人很加資格是不是馬上缺10萬不是討論這個東西\n還有比媽媽最欠六十天更重要的是英文都在欠因為這個勞動上的不公平不平等的結構如果存在的話讓你跟女兒一起也是這個問題啦都是這個問題啦還有不要把她移工當成永遠不絕永遠有啦\n沒糖好什麼好所以我們真的是要好好思考我們的勞動力政策在未來少子化 超高齡化我們台灣的問題也是全世界的問題真的很嚴重來 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.417 --> 00:12.600\n好我們是不是請這個洪部長來請部長林委員好部長今天很多委員他好像撿到槍一樣馬上說到底有沒有缺10萬個移工\n\n00:27.659 --> 00:41.349\n大家知道這個事情會一朝一夕馬上就發生的事情嗎然後大家在講講得好像說移工都源源不絕移工這個市場真的源源不絕嗎這個移工的市場全世界都在搶工那\n\n00:42.293 --> 00:59.704\n我們今天更應該比說是不是馬上就缺十萬個工更重要的事情要討論比現在有沒有馬上因為這一個月開放了就馬上立即缺十萬個工更重要的事情要討論的是我們的確看到了有一些現象\n\n01:00.945 --> 01:27.911\n那這一現象包括說整個國家移工的制度都不是掌握在政府手上啦整個國家的移工政策制度全部都掌握在大家習慣都是找仲介啦仲介這一環對移工的生態產業還有整個移工的訓練和專業影響非常大所以所有的案件雇主要去找移工也都是找仲介也不是透過這個政府啦\n\n01:30.592 --> 01:56.488\n所以仲介掌握的資源都比家庭多比你政府還更全面性的影響在僱主和移工之間扮演很重要的角色現在來了有這種新聞媒體上的報導有一個重症家屬逼透過仲介公司請看護工移工到看護工到僱主這個需要需求的這個\n\n01:57.549 --> 02:11.768\n家中服務以後不適應然後仲介也沒有協調解決最後解除契約反國然後但是重症者這個家庭就面臨到了照顧的空窗期\n\n02:13.137 --> 02:41.736\n那也希望仲介可以重新幫忙找移工可是現在仲介卻以重症個案特殊無人願意接案且無適合人選為由消極應對都幫人家找沒有人沒人要顧這件事這樣事情就是這樣啊重症看護的家庭沒有人要接那僱主在這種狀況裡面真的是說我到底是欲哭無淚求助無門啊\n\n02:43.417 --> 02:58.733\n那現在還有很多的移工來台灣做了幾天以後呢他說我不適應想要換新僱主但是現在很多僱主也是這樣子看護工做不到幾天就說要轉換僱主你如果不讓他轉換僱主就完蛋了如果完蛋了不讓他做\n\n03:03.444 --> 03:25.051\n他就把你逃走所以你也只能讓他同意他轉換雇主然後不同的仲介再引進不同的這個移工看護工來每個人都要重新適應重新教導重新學習然後大家都住不穩定因為很多移工到台灣來他辛苦所為何來啊要賺錢比較多錢啦\n\n03:28.184 --> 03:54.549\n這樣在康復工大家都知道廠工跟康復工有加班薪水甚至是雙倍而且廠工勞動條件依照勞基法有保障工時短再怎麼加班都比康復工還要短然後有休假然後薪水又高大家都想要\n\n03:55.635 --> 04:11.661\n跳板啦康護工其實也很多長工把康護工申請當跳板來了以後不可以轉換僱主就要刷去工廠賺多點休息多點比較足足的所以在這種狀況我們真正的現實是這種狀況真的很多僱主長照康護工的僱主\n\n04:24.724 --> 04:30.218\n即便有看護工但是也經常遇到這一種衝突怎麼辦啊\n\n04:32.732 --> 04:54.058\n這些是大問題這種問題現在你以為是重症跟輕症相互排擠而已嗎相互搶工而已嗎不是是家庭看護工跟廠工的雇主在相互搶工這個問題更嚴重那要怎麼辦\n\n04:57.455 --> 05:24.552\n跟委員說沒有的確剛剛在委員在講的現象我們的確都有看到了那尤其這裡在修法之後其實有些現象其實有在更更嚴重的狀況這事情是我們是都看到的那我們提現在接下來包括發言署裡面我們也希望能夠把包括剛剛在講我們執聘的執聘的資源包括我們執聘中心接下來都希望把功能再做一些強化\n\n05:25.072 --> 05:43.662\n職聘也一樣啊職聘也是有少了剝削那一環少了仲介那一環啊可是基本結構是家庭看護工沒有沒有像廠工一樣適用勞基法家庭看護工的薪水就遠比廠工加班的時候遠遠的還要少\n\n05:44.602 --> 06:06.241\n那作為一個移工他就是要賺比較多的家庭看護工能夠給付的薪水就不及於廠工所以如果廠工的雇主特別是在COVID-19那期間連仲介假裝幫你介紹家庭看護工來解約之後同意轉換雇主之後仲介都馬上\n\n06:07.509 --> 06:09.130\n他只顧著玩家解約馬上引進到工廠去生產線上\n\n06:18.191 --> 06:39.320\n這種狀況這種結構怎麼處理跟文說明的確這個結構的根源這個結構的根源其實是來自現在這些相對應的照顧的制度裡面變成是其實有很多一般的家庭看護工的雇主尤其是如果他的經濟條件比較沒那麼好的可是他可能還是必須請外籍看護工\n\n06:40.060 --> 06:46.864\n所以變成是這些僱主跟這個移工看護工之間這個他變成是一個好像\n\n06:48.069 --> 07:14.747\n你多一點我就少一點的問題這是為什麼我們勞動部一直希望需要更多的長照資源來引入因為如果沒有辦法透過政府的長照資源更多的來引入這一個相互就他就變成是一個相互好像你多一點我就會少一點的這個結構那不管是從看護工的角度或者是從這個僱主的角度來說都會非常非常的辛苦所以這是我們一直在跟衛福部談希望有更多長照資源導入的原因其實講的\n\n07:16.788 --> 07:36.520\n愛愛妹妹模模糊糊大家在講弱弱相殘因為每一個移工都是弱勢他到台灣來所為何事啊就要賺這麼多回去照顧他的家庭嘛那每一個看護工的雇主身障的家庭重症的家庭他就是弱勢當中的弱勢你說國家要承擔起長照的責任政府就沒愛就沒辦法\n\n07:38.661 --> 08:04.124\n外服部也沒愛沒辦法的難道這樣子我們就讓他這樣子手段都用完了嗎所以我今天要講說我們現實的層面康護工來了又走來了又走很多啊我們的移工政策都一直著重在說引進引進要穿進去引進進來可是呢沒有源源不絕的康護工引進以後逃跑或是轉到工廠生產線\n\n08:05.846 --> 08:15.695\n這問題永遠都沒有解決所以在這種狀況裡面而我們的康護外籍康護早就是長照的主要的人手和人力\n\n08:17.365 --> 08:37.883\n這不是替代這都補充台灣人都沒辦法做然後你弱勢的家庭也只請了市康護工不然你去找長照機構或者是請本國籍全部都請不上去在這種狀況我們手段用清了嗎我現在要告訴你說\n\n08:39.397 --> 09:03.166\n我告訴你一個狀況就是說照顧是不是一個專業照顧需不需要專業是那不同的失能的家庭的照顧有不同的需求失智者需要的可能是引導和耐心和陪伴中風患者需要的是物理復健和技巧末期的病患可能是需要臨終照顧所以這都是有專業的在這種狀況裡面我現在要講的就是說\n\n09:07.216 --> 09:30.189\n我們國家還有沒有手段和方法寧的薪水比工廠更糟然後工時勞動條件更差但是仍然有誘因給外籍康復工讓他們覺得暫時寧更糟條件更差忍耐一下未來會更好你覺得有沒有可能有這種誘因和手段\n\n09:33.050 --> 09:38.186\n的確在一些國家他比方說在這過程裡面他會提供一些訓練或者是一些學習的機會\n\n09:40.752 --> 10:02.165\n讓這些看護工訓練跟學習的機會換來的還是低報酬長工時我現在不是要講這個我現在跟你講就是說以日本為例他們知道結構性的缺工如果已經是全面性的結構性的缺工他們去開發特定技能的簽證制度\n\n10:03.326 --> 10:22.193\n特定技能的簽證制度針對特定行業的對人力的補充和需求以餐飲業為例他們外食類的技能簽證分成兩種一個是特定技能一號一個是特定技能二號\n\n10:23.453 --> 10:41.426\n一號跟二號的差別就是他可以吸菌可以讓你的配偶子女都跟著到日本來常住然後後來取得永久居留權你知道嗎特定技能一號就沒有\n\n10:42.651 --> 11:04.349\n所以在這種狀況裡面引進特定的簽證制度不但提供他就業機會也而且要當員工一樣對待這外籍移工成為他們職業上的引導者透過政府各種支援的措施包括文化適應形象管理語言訓練技能提升所以在這種狀況裡面移工\n\n11:06.690 --> 11:31.351\n特別是外籍看護移工如果在台灣的話他就不是短期的填充的補充缺口的人力而是我們要當他是可以培育可以發展的人才我們這裡提供的不只是就業機會未來有可能是全家攜家待眷永久居留\n\n11:32.452 --> 11:52.432\n我們要把這種移工當成未來可能人才的這個概念帶到我們的長照體系裡面來把它訓練成為長照體系專業可用的可長可久的人力和人才那是不是一種誘因跟我們說我們非常願意\n\n11:54.171 --> 12:21.697\n參考日本的經驗委員剛剛在講的事情就是日本的技術能力相關的制度所以他設計讓這個技術能力包括有技能的學習減和包括語言的學習跟減和但確實他這一套制度他也涉及到他是在海外的時候在母國的時候就進行這些工作所以我們其實部裡面是非常非常願意來往這個方向來做思考跟規劃的我現在要跟你講的意思是說這是結構性的因素因為大家來\n\n12:23.223 --> 12:46.610\n家庭看護工的待遇、薪水、工時、勞動條件真的比廠工還要賣得賣都很賣這個結構因素注定了很多人來申請來當家庭看護工之後不久就要當跳板轉換到轉換到我們的工廠裡面而我們知道台灣現在是不允許自由轉換雇主\n\n12:47.469 --> 13:06.104\n啊因為不允許自由轉換雇主所以仲介都嫁他們完結啊你跟你的老闆完結腰疤炒每天炒才讓你雇主動不動你早上對雇主也沒有好處所以不如同意讓你轉換雇主所以現在現場的衝突就是這樣子這麼嚴重了\n\n13:07.816 --> 13:25.362\n委員我剛才再讓我補充我們是非常願意跟衛福部一起來討論來思考比方說如果你是有照顧專長的技術人力就是說外籍的技術人力你有照顧專長的話是不是有機會可以進到我們的長照系統裡面擔任一些相對應的角色\n\n13:25.982 --> 13:53.580\n那当然这里面可能他会需要有语言的学习或者是一些技能的学习那在这中间我们怎么透过公部门的资源来去协助这些语言的学习或技术技能上面的学习让这件事也就是说需要跟长照的体系来结合可是呢在家庭我们现在的长照制度外籍移工的看护就是到个别家庭里面没有什么主管啦我讲的不是主管\n\n13:54.502 --> 14:12.248\n我講的不是主管我講的是技術人力因為你現在留的時間比較久的話其實你有機會可以轉成技術人力照顧一個適能的人平均要7年到10年我講的是如果他可以成為有技能的有照顧專業的技術人力的時候我們怎麼跟衛福部接下來討論在兩個機制之間有一些結合的點讓這個\n\n14:16.790 --> 14:32.406\n長照的人這樣這個照顧專長的人力在長照的體系裡面也有角色有位置我們很願意來嘗試這個方向對啊所以次長你來想想看你的想法和做法你覺得可行性是怎麼樣包委員稱呼剛剛黃部長剛說我們我們現在會來兩部那個全力推動啦我如果委員報告其實我們現在已經有兩個機制一個我們在去年\n\n14:39.133 --> 14:46.058\n我們在福音科技大學我們現在就有一班就是從外南那邊租過來啊在這裡我們有兩年的訓練後他可以在台灣待兩個三年他如果過他們都沒問題這樣我們勞動部就給他一個中階勞動力中階勞動力他如果通過後他最主要在我們機構啊因為我們機構講的是我們溫柔你現在在講家庭看護工的困境你不要講到機構去沒關係\n\n15:05.313 --> 15:11.778\n機構就適用勞基法啦對啦我如果委員報告我們現在也在鼓勵啊我們現在在那個一年幾萬家庭看護對不對我們也可以訓練訓練後後半他就可以來進入我們這個也是中階勞動力你還會進入哪裡進入哪裡啦進入機構啊\n\n15:21.633 --> 15:27.956\n我們現在講的是說每一個家庭康復工他如果持續成為家庭康復工要7年到10年譬如說這7年到10年我跟你講喔那股票不會喝在手啦他連續幾天都要賺啦因為沒前途沒未來我們這個喔如果訓練成中階勞動力他的薪資變到3萬喔我有到2萬8啦那個是要轉換料啦\n\n15:53.137 --> 16:17.327\n你們現在要求薪水多少2萬啦不是啦我在講家庭看護工家庭看護工最低是2萬2萬可是事實上務實面實務面2萬有人嗎現在2萬2現在都2、3萬2、3萬可以跟廠工的薪水待遇比嗎\n\n16:20.615 --> 16:39.594\n沒有啦委員長根據勞動經濟學這跟你單位生產力也有關係啊結構上的問題為什麼逃跑為什麼待不住因為在家庭看護工一天24小時一年365天你還可以加班費給他不休息不讓他休息\n\n16:40.575 --> 17:09.887\n然後呢勞動條件這麼差薪水不要說兩萬啦雇主給你三萬人家看他同鄉去工地還有加班的一個月五萬六萬這樣要完結嗎也就是因為剛剛你提到的這些現象所以現在我們也的確我們是很願意再去思考一個重要的事情是這一個看起來他假設他現在是外籍的看護工他的薪資確實比較低如果他可以成為中階的技術工以後\n\n17:10.507 --> 17:34.025\n那接下來在一個什麼樣子的條件下面有可能可以成為長照體系裡面的議員成為長照體系議員的時候他所可以擁有的國家的協助跟資源就會跟他現在單純你現在不要空中化大餅來我問你們啦想為什麼講你空中化大餅你們國家的資源更多會進來那你短照經費今年就編不夠了啦\n\n17:35.171 --> 17:41.014\n短照經費不是缺了嗎你們國家資源給外籍看護工兩種一個是勞動部的救安基金移撥出來的短照經費一個是衛福部納入的喘息計畫一年多少錢有夠沒有未來增加80億以上免發數量表要增加多少人你經費有相對應的編列了嗎不要講新增加的\n\n18:04.348 --> 18:29.321\n這在8月已經完成編列了你編列多少錢來你編列多少錢因為網路上有民眾在7月底的時候反應被通知短照服務的經費不足而在113年執行率是173%在114年的今年到5月的時候5月喔執行率是101%\n\n18:33.457 --> 18:52.297\n現在短照經費全部沒了然後長照只剩下長照一年84小時跟委員說明上禮拜已經召開就安定管理會那我們補上了這個因為原本的確我們有低估所以我們把差額包括明年的部分我們把它追加補\n\n18:52.517 --> 19:20.791\n我現在問你是說這麼結構性的問題你說引進國家資源叫這些家庭看護工把自己培養成專業的然後技能上納入我們國家的中級技術專業人力的那麼他可以用國家更多資源國家是有多少資源國家資源不過就長照那84小時多少錢長照多少錢我們現在目前\n\n19:21.912 --> 19:27.138\n我們這個部分其實跟勞動部我們密切配合啦總共加起來是6億8千6百兩邊加起來6億啊我們本部我們一邊3.4勞動部也幫我們3.4啊這樣總共6億就夠賺\n\n19:40.632 --> 19:59.863\n6億和20幾萬的家庭康復移工用不不不不是這樣喔我們這是擴大喘息服務喔我們這是擴大喔喘息就是給長照體系阿我們講的是移工納入長照適用喘息所以移工用就會更早囉\n\n20:01.204 --> 20:16.135\n現在移工的部分就是勞動部的短照服務啊短照服務的過去變兩頁但是我有一件報告我們那是鼓勵大家先來用我們的擴大喘息啦這個我必須要說你加起來六七頁也是很少的啦沒有沒有擴大喘息是六頁喔但是勞動部救援年金金現在又變五頁嘛\n\n20:26.755 --> 20:45.955\n到8億喔加起來是14億喔那個是普通人也在用的不是外籍移工專用的嘛外籍移工是用多少啦那個擴大喘息服務就是家庭照顧者嘛還有外刊啊短照服務是外刊專用的嘛\n\n20:48.638 --> 21:14.989\n短照是外籍看護院當時是因為期休一那要讓希望能夠讓這個外籍看護可以有收休所以我們規劃了短照以前是一年預算才兩三億嘛三億嘛今年我剛剛講的113年執行率是173%今年到5月101了所以你才發現不足嘛所以你才追加到五六億嘛本來是三億現在是六億可能五六億嘛可是這夠嗎\n\n21:16.249 --> 21:35.534\n你剛剛講說我一直跟你講結構上這個問題會造成聘僱外籍移工的家庭跟這個僱主跟移工之間很多的摩擦那個摩擦的目的是為了自由不能自由轉換僱主而去製造衝突讓他可以轉換出去\n\n21:36.414 --> 21:52.185\n而這一種結構來自於薪資結構的不平等來自於勞動條件上的這個特別惡劣而你沒有辦法解決薪資結構也沒有辦法解決勞動條件的惡劣的狀況下你有沒有透過你的\n\n21:53.206 --> 22:07.319\n其他的制度比如說像日本的這一種制度設計了可能就未來允許西眷來台灣永久居留類似這種狀況留住這一種看護的人力\n\n22:08.288 --> 22:25.157\n然後拘留下來讓他可以忍受一時的難處然後看到未來他可以永久拘留而有一個誘因因為這個誘因只存在外籍看護工而廠工可能是門檻更高的\n\n22:26.467 --> 22:43.558\n類似這樣的機制我們來設計否則你都在打高空叫國家扛起長照責任失能照顧責任國家不願意一直退位然後仰賴仲介仲介控制著市場和政策\n\n22:45.094 --> 23:05.700\n跟委員說明第一個我們其實現在也正在檢討我們技術人力的制度而技術人力制度的檢討其實也是正在參考日本的做法所以我們近期包括法案署裡面其實也不斷的在跟日本這邊來做交流其實就是希望能夠參考日本相關的做法因為日本的做法其實某些部分真的是值得我們參考的這是第一個\n\n23:06.460 --> 23:32.225\n第二個的確因為在制度上面如果你可以成為中階的技術人力之後比方說他回去的那個年限就可以打就可以拿掉所以技術人力是可以長期的留下來的是技術人是可以想說為什麼才剛才跟委員在講到說我們很希望怎麼樣來協助我們的移工蘭嶺的移工他可以更順暢的轉成技術人力然後在在這個部分他可能會有相對應的這些權力的保障甚至資源配套更多是\n\n23:32.925 --> 23:59.767\n阿你剛剛講的資源就只有你們的短照還有這個喘息服務這是不夠的跟文說我的意思不是只有短照我剛才講到如果今天一個照顧的技術人力的話他就可以進到國家的社福的體系裡面國家的社福體系裡面的資源會比他一定只能從僱主尤其是這些一般的僱主來出會來得更加的豐富國家的體系裡面能夠提供的就業的機會是多少啦\n\n24:01.879 --> 24:18.946\n整個長照失能體系國家都退位照服員你去問照服員的待遇看有問題嗎現在已經到將近上千億了啦我們當然知道\n\n24:29.664 --> 24:52.816\n現在是趙服員你去問每個失能的家庭配到的時數是多少遠遠少於需求啦這個就是我們知道蔡英文總統任內把她上升到800多億賴總統任內上升到900多億這看到國家可是你知道整個失能照顧的體系不是上千億就足夠的\n\n24:54.117 --> 25:16.920\n你剛剛講到的那個結構的困境我們都是同意的所以要解這個結構的困境勢必是需要國家的資源進去導入才能夠緩解這個你剛才講包括弱弱相殘的狀況所以包括制度上面跟我說資源包括制度上面因為今天在移工的聘僱的這個體系裡面移工聘僱體系坦白說他的確是一個相對市場機制\n\n25:18.021 --> 25:30.635\n可是今天在長照的資源面不是市場機制你忘了家庭看護工是我們用政策硬的硬生生的把他從勞基法適用裡面排除掉的這個不是市場機制\n\n25:33.358 --> 25:55.700\n但是需要一些國家的資源才能夠去緩解剛剛在講的那個結構的困境這個是為什麼我們在跟衛福部一直在包括跟呂次長一直在談我們希望在這裡面未來能夠有所突破那透過的就是透過技術人力能不能成為技術人力或者是讓技術人力相關的配套能夠更健全這部分我們也在參考日本的制度要看得到吃得到\n\n25:57.422 --> 26:07.573\n實惠而不是口惠是這樣子希望你們回去再想一想啦先這樣子所以我最後再講一句不是在這裡問說有10萬的人很加資格是不是馬上缺10萬不是討論這個東西\n\n26:12.719 --> 26:16.301\n還有比媽媽最欠六十天更重要的是英文都在欠因為這個勞動上的不公平不平等的結構如果存在的話讓你跟女兒一起也是這個問題啦都是這個問題啦還有不要把她移工當成永遠不絕永遠有啦\n\n26:31.249 --> 26:42.572\n沒糖好什麼好所以我們真的是要好好思考我們的勞動力政策在未來少子化超高齡化我們台灣的問題也是全世界的問題真的很嚴重來謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.417,"end":12.6,"text":"好 我們是不是請這個洪部長來 請部長林委員好部長 今天很多委員他好像撿到槍一樣馬上說到底有沒有缺10萬個移工"},{"start":27.659,"end":41.349,"text":"大家知道這個事情會一朝一夕馬上就發生的事情嗎然後大家在講講得好像說移工都源源不絕移工這個市場真的源源不絕嗎這個移工的市場全世界都在搶工那"},{"start":42.293,"end":59.704,"text":"我們今天更應該比說是不是馬上就缺十萬個工更重要的事情要討論比現在有沒有馬上因為這一個月開放了就馬上立即缺十萬個工更重要的事情要討論的是我們的確看到了有一些現象"},{"start":60.945,"end":87.911,"text":"那這一現象包括說整個國家移工的制度都不是掌握在政府手上啦整個國家的移工政策制度全部都掌握在大家習慣都是找仲介啦仲介這一環對移工的生態產業還有整個移工的訓練和專業影響非常大所以所有的案件雇主要去找移工也都是找仲介也不是透過這個政府啦"},{"start":90.592,"end":116.488,"text":"所以仲介掌握的資源都比家庭多比你政府還更全面性的影響在僱主和移工之間扮演很重要的角色現在來了有這種新聞媒體上的報導有一個重症家屬逼透過仲介公司請看護工移工到看護工到僱主這個需要需求的這個"},{"start":117.549,"end":131.768,"text":"家中服務以後不適應然後仲介也沒有協調解決最後解除契約反國然後但是重症者這個家庭就面臨到了照顧的空窗期"},{"start":133.137,"end":161.736,"text":"那也希望仲介可以重新幫忙找移工可是現在仲介卻以重症個案特殊無人願意接案 且無適合人選為由消極應對 都幫人家找沒有人 沒人要顧這件事這樣 事情就是這樣啊重症看護的家庭沒有人要接那僱主在這種狀況裡面真的是說我到底是欲哭無淚 求助無門啊"},{"start":163.417,"end":178.733,"text":"那現在還有很多的移工來台灣做了幾天以後呢他說我不適應想要換新僱主但是現在很多僱主也是這樣子看護工做不到幾天就說要轉換僱主你如果不讓他轉換僱主就完蛋了如果完蛋了不讓他做"},{"start":183.444,"end":205.051,"text":"他就把你逃走 所以你也只能讓他同意他轉換雇主然後不同的仲介再引進不同的這個移工 看護工來每個人都要重新適應 重新教導 重新學習然後大家都住不穩定 因為很多移工到台灣來他辛苦所為何來啊 要賺錢比較多錢啦"},{"start":208.184,"end":234.549,"text":"這樣在康復工大家都知道廠工跟康復工有加班薪水甚至是雙倍而且廠工勞動條件依照勞基法有保障工時短再怎麼加班都比康復工還要短然後有休假然後薪水又高大家都想要"},{"start":235.635,"end":251.661,"text":"跳板啦 康護工其實也很多長工把康護工申請當跳板來了以後 不可以轉換僱主就要刷去工廠 賺多點 休息多點 比較足足的所以在這種狀況 我們真正的現實是這種狀況真的很多僱主 長照康護工的僱主"},{"start":264.724,"end":270.218,"text":"即便有看護工但是也經常遇到這一種衝突怎麼辦啊"},{"start":272.732,"end":294.058,"text":"這些是大問題 這種問題現在你以為是重症跟輕症相互排擠而已嗎相互搶工而已嗎 不是是家庭看護工跟廠工的雇主在相互搶工這個問題更嚴重 那要怎麼辦"},{"start":297.455,"end":324.552,"text":"跟委員說沒有的確剛剛在委員在講的現象我們的確都有看到了那尤其這裡在修法之後其實有些現象其實有在更更嚴重的狀況這事情是我們是都看到的那我們提現在接下來包括發言署裡面我們也希望能夠把包括剛剛在講我們執聘的執聘的資源包括我們執聘中心接下來都希望把功能再做一些強化"},{"start":325.072,"end":343.662,"text":"職聘也一樣啊職聘也是有少了剝削那一環少了仲介那一環啊可是基本結構是家庭看護工沒有沒有像廠工一樣適用勞基法家庭看護工的薪水就遠比廠工加班的時候遠遠的還要少"},{"start":344.602,"end":366.241,"text":"那作為一個移工他就是要賺比較多的家庭看護工能夠給付的薪水就不及於廠工所以如果廠工的雇主特別是在COVID-19那期間連仲介假裝幫你介紹家庭看護工來解約之後同意轉換雇主之後仲介都馬上"},{"start":367.509,"end":369.13,"text":"他只顧著玩家解約馬上引進到工廠去生產線上"},{"start":378.191,"end":399.32,"text":"這種狀況這種結構怎麼處理跟文說明的確這個結構的根源這個結構的根源其實是來自現在這些相對應的照顧的制度裡面變成是其實有很多一般的家庭看護工的雇主尤其是如果他的經濟條件比較沒那麼好的可是他可能還是必須請外籍看護工"},{"start":400.06,"end":406.864,"text":"所以變成是這些僱主跟這個移工看護工之間這個他變成是一個好像"},{"start":408.069,"end":434.747,"text":"你多一點我就少一點的問題這是為什麼我們勞動部一直希望需要更多的長照資源來引入因為如果沒有辦法透過政府的長照資源更多的來引入這一個相互就他就變成是一個相互好像你多一點我就會少一點的這個結構那不管是從看護工的角度或者是從這個僱主的角度來說都會非常非常的辛苦所以這是我們一直在跟衛福部談希望有更多長照資源導入的原因其實講的"},{"start":436.788,"end":456.52,"text":"愛愛妹妹 模模糊糊大家在講弱弱相殘因為每一個移工都是弱勢他到台灣來所為何事啊就要賺這麼多回去照顧他的家庭嘛那每一個看護工的雇主身障的家庭 重症的家庭他就是弱勢當中的弱勢你說國家要承擔起長照的責任政府就沒愛 就沒辦法"},{"start":458.661,"end":484.124,"text":"外服部也沒愛沒辦法的難道這樣子我們就讓他這樣子手段都用完了嗎所以我今天要講說我們現實的層面康護工來了又走來了又走很多啊我們的移工政策都一直著重在說引進引進要穿進去引進進來可是呢沒有源源不絕的康護工引進以後逃跑或是轉到工廠生產線"},{"start":485.846,"end":495.695,"text":"這問題永遠都沒有解決所以在這種狀況裡面而我們的康護外籍康護早就是長照的主要的人手和人力"},{"start":497.365,"end":517.883,"text":"這不是替代 這都補充 台灣人都沒辦法做然後你弱勢的家庭也只請了市康護工不然你去找長照機構 或者是請本國籍 全部都請不上去在這種狀況 我們手段用清了嗎 我現在要告訴你說"},{"start":519.397,"end":543.166,"text":"我告訴你一個狀況就是說照顧是不是一個專業照顧需不需要專業是那不同的失能的家庭的照顧有不同的需求失智者需要的可能是引導和耐心和陪伴中風患者需要的是物理復健和技巧末期的病患可能是需要臨終照顧所以這都是有專業的在這種狀況裡面我現在要講的就是說"},{"start":547.216,"end":570.189,"text":"我們國家還有沒有手段和方法寧的薪水比工廠更糟然後工時勞動條件更差但是仍然有誘因給外籍康復工讓他們覺得暫時寧更糟條件更差 忍耐一下未來會更好你覺得有沒有可能有這種誘因和手段"},{"start":573.05,"end":578.186,"text":"的確在一些國家他比方說在這過程裡面他會提供一些訓練或者是一些學習的機會"},{"start":580.752,"end":602.165,"text":"讓這些看護工訓練跟學習的機會換來的還是低報酬長工時我現在不是要講這個我現在跟你講就是說以日本為例他們知道結構性的缺工如果已經是全面性的結構性的缺工他們去開發特定技能的簽證制度"},{"start":603.326,"end":622.193,"text":"特定技能的簽證制度針對特定行業的對人力的補充和需求以餐飲業為例他們外食類的技能簽證分成兩種一個是特定技能一號一個是特定技能二號"},{"start":623.453,"end":641.426,"text":"一號跟二號的差別就是他可以吸菌可以讓你的配偶子女都跟著到日本來常住然後後來取得永久居留權你知道嗎特定技能一號就沒有"},{"start":642.651,"end":664.349,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面 引進特定的簽證制度不但提供他就業機會 也而且要當員工一樣對待這外籍移工 成為他們職業上的引導者透過政府各種支援的措施 包括文化適應形象管理 語言訓練 技能提升所以在這種狀況裡面 移工"},{"start":666.69,"end":691.351,"text":"特別是外籍看護移工如果在台灣的話他就不是短期的填充的補充缺口的人力而是我們要當他是可以培育可以發展的人才我們這裡提供的不只是就業機會未來有可能是全家攜家待眷永久居留"},{"start":692.452,"end":712.432,"text":"我們要把這種移工當成未來可能人才的這個概念帶到我們的長照體系裡面來把它訓練成為長照體系專業可用的可長可久的人力和人才那是不是一種誘因跟我們說我們非常願意"},{"start":714.171,"end":741.697,"text":"參考日本的經驗委員剛剛在講的事情就是日本的技術能力相關的制度所以他設計讓這個技術能力包括有技能的學習減和包括語言的學習跟減和但確實他這一套制度他也涉及到他是在海外的時候在母國的時候就進行這些工作所以我們其實部裡面是非常非常願意來往這個方向來做思考跟規劃的我現在要跟你講的意思是說這是結構性的因素因為大家來"},{"start":743.223,"end":766.61,"text":"家庭看護工的待遇、薪水、工時、勞動條件真的比廠工還要賣得賣都很賣這個結構因素注定了很多人來申請來當家庭看護工之後不久就要當跳板轉換到轉換到我們的工廠裡面而我們知道台灣現在是不允許自由轉換雇主"},{"start":767.469,"end":786.104,"text":"啊因為不允許自由轉換雇主所以仲介都嫁他們 完結啊你跟你的老闆完結 腰疤炒 每天炒才讓你雇主動不動 你早上對雇主也沒有好處所以不如同意讓你轉換雇主所以現在現場的衝突就是這樣子這麼嚴重了"},{"start":787.816,"end":805.362,"text":"委員我剛才再讓我補充我們是非常願意跟衛福部一起來討論來思考比方說如果你是有照顧專長的技術人力就是說外籍的技術人力你有照顧專長的話是不是有機會可以進到我們的長照系統裡面擔任一些相對應的角色"},{"start":805.982,"end":833.58,"text":"那当然这里面可能他会需要有语言的学习或者是一些技能的学习那在这中间我们怎么透过公部门的资源来去协助这些语言的学习或技术技能上面的学习让这件事也就是说需要跟长照的体系来结合可是呢在家庭我们现在的长照制度外籍移工的看护就是到个别家庭里面没有什么主管啦我讲的不是主管"},{"start":834.502,"end":852.248,"text":"我講的不是主管我講的是技術人力因為你現在留的時間比較久的話其實你有機會可以轉成技術人力照顧一個適能的人平均要7年到10年我講的是如果他可以成為有技能的有照顧專業的技術人力的時候我們怎麼跟衛福部接下來討論在兩個機制之間有一些結合的點讓這個"},{"start":856.79,"end":872.406,"text":"長照的人這樣這個照顧專長的人力在長照的體系裡面也有角色有位置我們很願意來嘗試這個方向對啊所以次長你來想想看你的想法和做法你覺得可行性是怎麼樣包委員稱呼剛剛黃部長剛說我們我們現在會來兩部那個全力推動啦我如果委員報告其實我們現在已經有兩個機制一個我們在去年"},{"start":879.133,"end":886.058,"text":"我們在福音科技大學我們現在就有一班就是從外南那邊租過來啊在這裡我們有兩年的訓練後他可以在台灣待兩個三年他如果過他們都沒問題這樣我們勞動部就給他一個中階勞動力中階勞動力他如果通過後他最主要在我們機構啊因為我們機構講的是我們溫柔你現在在講家庭看護工的困境你不要講到機構去沒關係"},{"start":905.313,"end":911.778,"text":"機構就適用勞基法啦對啦 我如果委員報告我們現在也在鼓勵啊我們現在在那個一年幾萬家庭看護對不對我們也可以訓練訓練後 後半他就可以來進入我們這個也是中階勞動力你還會進入哪裡 進入哪裡啦進入機構啊"},{"start":921.633,"end":927.956,"text":"我們現在講的是說 每一個家庭康復工他如果持續成為家庭康復工 要7年到10年譬如說這7年到10年 我跟你講喔 那股票不會喝在手啦他連續幾天都要賺啦 因為沒前途沒未來我們這個喔 如果訓練成中階勞動力 他的薪資變到3萬喔我有到2萬8啦 那個是要轉換料啦"},{"start":953.137,"end":977.327,"text":"你們現在要求薪水多少2萬啦不是啦 我在講家庭看護工家庭看護工最低是2萬2萬 可是事實上務實面 實務面2萬有人嗎現在2萬2現在都2、3萬 2、3萬可以跟廠工的薪水待遇比嗎"},{"start":980.615,"end":999.594,"text":"沒有啦 委員長 根據勞動經濟學 這跟你單位生產力也有關係啊結構上的問題 為什麼逃跑 為什麼待不住因為在家庭看護工一天24小時 一年365天你還可以加班費給他不休息 不讓他休息"},{"start":1000.575,"end":1029.887,"text":"然後呢 勞動條件這麼差 薪水不要說兩萬啦 雇主給你三萬人家看他同鄉去工地 還有加班的一個月 五萬六萬這樣要完結嗎也就是因為剛剛你提到的這些現象所以現在我們也的確我們是很願意再去思考一個重要的事情是這一個看起來他假設他現在是外籍的看護工他的薪資確實比較低如果他可以成為中階的技術工以後"},{"start":1030.507,"end":1054.025,"text":"那接下來在一個什麼樣子的條件下面有可能可以成為長照體系裡面的議員成為長照體系議員的時候他所可以擁有的國家的協助跟資源就會跟他現在單純你現在不要空中化大餅來我問你們啦想為什麼講你空中化大餅你們國家的資源更多會進來那你短照經費今年就編不夠了啦"},{"start":1055.171,"end":1061.014,"text":"短照經費不是缺了嗎你們國家資源給外籍看護工兩種一個是勞動部的救安基金移撥出來的短照經費一個是衛福部納入的喘息計畫一年多少錢 有夠沒有未來增加80億以上免發數量表要增加多少人你經費有相對應的編列了嗎不要講新增加的"},{"start":1084.348,"end":1109.321,"text":"這在8月已經完成編列了你編列多少錢來你編列多少錢因為網路上有民眾在7月底的時候反應被通知短照服務的經費不足而在113年執行率是173%在114年的今年到5月的時候5月喔執行率是101%"},{"start":1113.457,"end":1132.297,"text":"現在短照經費全部沒了然後長照只剩下長照一年84小時跟委員說明上禮拜已經召開就安定管理會那我們補上了這個因為原本的確我們有低估所以我們把差額包括明年的部分我們把它追加補"},{"start":1132.517,"end":1160.791,"text":"我現在問你是說這麼結構性的問題你說引進國家資源叫這些家庭看護工把自己培養成專業的然後技能上納入我們國家的中級技術專業人力的那麼他可以用國家更多資源國家是有多少資源國家資源不過就長照那84小時多少錢 長照多少錢我們現在目前"},{"start":1161.912,"end":1167.138,"text":"我們這個部分 其實跟勞動部我們密切配合啦總共加起來是6億8千6百兩邊加起來6億啊我們本部我們一邊3.4 勞動部也幫我們3.4啊這樣總共6億就夠賺"},{"start":1180.632,"end":1199.863,"text":"6億和20幾萬的家庭康復移工用不不不 不是這樣喔我們這是擴大喘息服務喔我們這是擴大喔喘息就是給長照體系 阿我們講的是移工納入長照適用喘息所以移工用就會更早囉"},{"start":1201.204,"end":1216.135,"text":"現在移工的部分就是勞動部的短照服務啊短照服務的過去變兩頁但是我有一件報告我們那是鼓勵大家先來用我們的擴大喘息啦這個我必須要說你加起來六七頁也是很少的啦沒有沒有 擴大喘息是六頁喔但是勞動部救援年金金現在又變五頁嘛"},{"start":1226.755,"end":1245.955,"text":"到8億喔 加起來是14億喔那個是普通人也在用的 不是外籍移工專用的嘛外籍移工是用多少啦那個擴大喘息服務就是家庭照顧者嘛 還有外刊啊短照服務是外刊專用的嘛"},{"start":1248.638,"end":1274.989,"text":"短照是外籍看護院當時是因為期休一那要讓希望能夠讓這個外籍看護可以有收休所以我們規劃了短照以前是一年預算才兩三億嘛三億嘛今年我剛剛講的113年執行率是173%今年到5月101了所以你才發現不足嘛所以你才追加到五六億嘛本來是三億現在是六億可能五六億嘛可是這夠嗎"},{"start":1276.249,"end":1295.534,"text":"你剛剛講說我一直跟你講結構上這個問題會造成聘僱外籍移工的家庭跟這個僱主跟移工之間很多的摩擦那個摩擦的目的是為了自由不能自由轉換僱主而去製造衝突讓他可以轉換出去"},{"start":1296.414,"end":1312.185,"text":"而這一種結構來自於薪資結構的不平等來自於勞動條件上的這個特別惡劣而你沒有辦法解決薪資結構也沒有辦法解決勞動條件的惡劣的狀況下你有沒有透過你的"},{"start":1313.206,"end":1327.319,"text":"其他的制度比如說像日本的這一種制度設計了可能就未來允許西眷來台灣永久居留類似這種狀況留住這一種看護的人力"},{"start":1328.288,"end":1345.157,"text":"然後拘留下來讓他可以忍受一時的難處然後看到未來他可以永久拘留而有一個誘因因為這個誘因只存在外籍看護工而廠工可能是門檻更高的"},{"start":1346.467,"end":1363.558,"text":"類似這樣的機制我們來設計否則你都在打高空叫國家扛起長照責任失能照顧責任國家不願意一直退位然後仰賴仲介仲介控制著市場和政策"},{"start":1365.094,"end":1385.7,"text":"跟委員說明第一個我們其實現在也正在檢討我們技術人力的制度而技術人力制度的檢討其實也是正在參考日本的做法所以我們近期包括法案署裡面其實也不斷的在跟日本這邊來做交流其實就是希望能夠參考日本相關的做法因為日本的做法其實某些部分真的是值得我們參考的這是第一個"},{"start":1386.46,"end":1412.225,"text":"第二個的確因為在制度上面如果你可以成為中階的技術人力之後比方說他回去的那個年限就可以打就可以拿掉所以技術人力是可以長期的留下來的是技術人是可以想說為什麼才剛才跟委員在講到說我們很希望怎麼樣來協助我們的移工蘭嶺的移工他可以更順暢的轉成技術人力然後在在這個部分他可能會有相對應的這些權力的保障甚至資源配套更多是"},{"start":1412.925,"end":1439.767,"text":"阿你剛剛講的資源就只有你們的短照還有這個喘息服務這是不夠的跟文說我的意思不是只有短照我剛才講到如果今天一個照顧的技術人力的話他就可以進到國家的社福的體系裡面國家的社福體系裡面的資源會比他一定只能從僱主尤其是這些一般的僱主來出會來得更加的豐富國家的體系裡面能夠提供的就業的機會是多少啦"},{"start":1441.879,"end":1458.946,"text":"整個長照失能體系 國家都退位照服員 你去問照服員的待遇看有問題嗎現在已經到將近上千億了啦我們當然知道"},{"start":1469.664,"end":1492.816,"text":"現在是趙服員你去問每個失能的家庭配到的時數是多少遠遠少於需求啦這個就是我們知道蔡英文總統任內把她上升到800多億賴總統任內上升到900多億這看到國家可是你知道整個失能照顧的體系不是上千億就足夠的"},{"start":1494.117,"end":1516.92,"text":"你剛剛講到的那個結構的困境我們都是同意的所以要解這個結構的困境勢必是需要國家的資源進去導入才能夠緩解這個你剛才講包括弱弱相殘的狀況所以包括制度上面跟我說資源包括制度上面因為今天在移工的聘僱的這個體系裡面移工聘僱體系坦白說他的確是一個相對市場機制"},{"start":1518.021,"end":1530.635,"text":"可是今天在長照的資源面不是市場機制你忘了家庭看護工是我們用政策硬的硬生生的把他從勞基法適用裡面排除掉的這個不是市場機制"},{"start":1533.358,"end":1555.7,"text":"但是需要一些國家的資源才能夠去緩解剛剛在講的那個結構的困境這個是為什麼我們在跟衛福部一直在包括跟呂次長一直在談我們希望在這裡面未來能夠有所突破那透過的就是透過技術人力能不能成為技術人力或者是讓技術人力相關的配套能夠更健全這部分我們也在參考日本的制度要看得到 吃得到"},{"start":1557.422,"end":1567.573,"text":"實惠而不是口惠是這樣子 希望你們回去再想一想啦先這樣子所以我最後再講一句不是在這裡問說有10萬的人很加資格是不是馬上缺10萬不是討論這個東西"},{"start":1572.719,"end":1576.301,"text":"還有比媽媽最欠六十天更重要的是英文都在欠因為這個勞動上的不公平不平等的結構如果存在的話讓你跟女兒一起也是這個問題啦都是這個問題啦還有不要把她移工當成永遠不絕永遠有啦"},{"start":1591.249,"end":1602.572,"text":"沒糖好什麼好所以我們真的是要好好思考我們的勞動力政策在未來少子化 超高齡化我們台灣的問題也是全世界的問題真的很嚴重來 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":701,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時19分）好，我們是不是請洪部長？"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，今天很多委員好像撿到槍一樣，馬上說到底有沒有缺10萬個移工，大家也知道這是一朝一夕馬上就發生的事情嗎？然後大家講得好像移工都源源不絕，移工這個市場真的源源不絕嗎？移工的市場全世界都在搶工，我們今天更應該比說是不是馬上就有缺10萬個工更重要的事情要討論，比現在有沒有馬上因為這一個月開放了就立即缺10萬個工更重要的事情要討論。我們的確看到了一些現象，這些現象包括整個國家移工的制度都不是掌握在政府手上，整個國家的移工政策、制度全部都掌握在……大家習慣都是找仲介啦，仲介這一環對移工的生態、產業，還有整個移工的訓練和專業影響非常大，所以所有的案件，雇主要去找移工也都是找仲介，也不是透過政府，所以仲介掌握的資源都比家庭多，比你政府還更全面性的影響，在雇主和移工之間扮演很重要的角色。","現在來了，有這種新聞媒體上的報導，有一個重症家屬透過仲介公司請看護工，看護工到雇主有需求的家中服務以後不適應，然後仲介也沒有協調解決，最後解除契約返國，但是重症者的家庭就面臨照顧的空窗期，也希望仲介可以重新幫忙找移工，可是現在仲介卻以重症個案特殊、無人願意接案且無適合人選為由消極應對，都跟他們講找不到人、沒有人要照顧這種。事實就是這樣，重症看護的家庭沒有人要接，雇主在這種狀況裡面真的是欲哭無淚、求助無門。現在還有很多的移工來臺灣做了幾天以後，他說我不適應、想要換新雇主。但是現在很多雇主也是這樣子，看護工做沒幾天就說要轉換雇主，你如果不讓他轉換就吵架，如果吵架不讓他走，他就偷跑，所以你也只能同意他轉換雇主，然後不同的仲介再引進不同的移工、看護工來，每一個人都要重新適應、重新教導、重新學習，然後大家都待不久，因為很多移工到臺灣，他辛苦所為何來？就是為了賺更多錢啦！做看護工大家都知道，廠工如果有加班，薪水甚至是雙倍的，而且廠工的勞動條件是依照勞基法有保障，工時短，再怎麼加班都比看護工還要短，然後有休假，薪水又高，看護工大家都想要當跳板，其實也有很多廠工把申請看護工當跳板，來了以後不合，轉換雇主就要轉到工廠，賺的比較多、休息比較多、比較自主。所以我們真正的現實是這種狀況，有很多長照看護工的雇主即便有看護工，但是也經常遇到這種衝突，怎麼辦？部長，這才是大問題，這種問題現在你以為是重症與輕症相互排擠而已嗎？相互搶工而已嗎？不是！是家庭看護工與廠工的雇主在相互搶工，這個問題更嚴重，那要怎麼辦？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，剛剛委員講的現象我們的確都有看到，尤其在修法之後，有些現象其實有更嚴重的狀況，這些事情我們也都看到了。現在包括發展署，我們也希望對於剛剛講的直聘的資源，包括直聘中心，接下來都能夠將功能再做一些強化。"],["林委員淑芬：直聘也一樣啊！直聘就是少了剝削那一環、少了仲介那一環，可是基本結構是，家庭看護工沒有像廠工一樣適用勞基法，家庭看護工的薪水比廠工加班的時候遠遠的還要少。作為一個移工，他就是要賺比較多，但是能夠給付給家庭看護工的薪水不及於廠工，所以如果廠工的雇主，特別是在COVID-19那段期間，仲介假裝幫你介紹家庭看護工，仲介都教他怎樣跟雇主吵架、解約，然後解約以後、同意轉換雇主以後，馬上把他引進到工廠的生產線上，這種狀況、這種結構怎麼處理啊？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，的確這個結構的根源其實是來自……現在這些相對應的照顧制度裡面，變成是有很多一般家庭看護工的雇主，尤其是如果他的經濟條件比較沒那麼好，可是他可能還是必須請外籍看護工，所以這些雇主跟這個移工、看護工之間變成是一個好像你多一點，我就少一點的問題。這是為什麼勞動部一直希望引入更多的長照資源，因為如果沒有辦法透過政府引入更多的長照資源，它就會變成相互……好像你多一點，我就會少一點的結構，不管是從看護工的角度或者是從雇主的角度來說，都會非常非常辛苦，所以這是我們一直在跟衛福部談，希望有更多長照資源導入的原因。"],["林委員淑芬：我聽你這樣講，其實講得曖曖昧昧、模模糊糊，大家在講弱弱相殘，因為每一個移工都是弱勢，他到臺灣來所為何事？就是要賺多一點回去照顧他的家庭嘛！每一個看護工的雇主、身障的家庭、重症的家庭，他就是弱勢當中的弱勢。你說國家要承擔起長照責任，政府就是不要、就是沒辦法，衛福部也不要，也是沒辦法，難道我們就讓他這樣子手段都用完了嗎？所以我今天要講我們現實的層面，看護工來了又走，來了又走，很多啊！我們的移工政策一直著重在引進、引進，帶進來、引進來，可是沒有源源不絕的看護工，引進以後逃跑或是轉到工廠生產線，這個問題永遠都沒有解決。在這種狀況裡面，我們的外籍看護早就是長照的主要人手和人力，這不是替代，這都是補充，臺灣人都不想做，然後弱勢家庭也只請得起看護工，不然你去住長照機構或者是請本國籍的，那根本都請不起，在這種狀況我們手段用罄了嗎？我現在要告訴你一個狀況就是，照顧是不是一項專業？照顧需不需要專業？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["林委員淑芬：不同失能家庭的照顧有不同的需求，失智者需要的可能是引導、耐心及陪伴；中風患者需要的是物理復健及技巧；末期病患可能是需要臨終照顧，所以這都是有專業的。在這種狀況裡面，我現在要講的就是，我們國家還有沒有手段和方法？領的薪水比工廠更少，然後工時、勞動條件還更差，但是仍然有誘因給外籍看護工，讓他們覺得暫時領比較少、條件比較差，忍耐一下，未來會比較好，你覺得有沒有可能有這種誘因和手段？"],["洪部長申翰：的確在一些國家，比方說，在這過程裡面，它會提供一些訓練或者是一些學習機會，讓這一些看護工……"],["林委員淑芬：訓練跟學習的機會換來的還是低報酬、長工時，我現在不是要講這個，我現在要跟你講的就是，以日本為例，他們知道結構性的缺工如果已經是全面性的，他們去開發特定技能簽證制度，針對特定行業的人力補充和需求，以餐飲業為例，他們外食領域的技能簽證分成兩種，一個是特定技能一號，一個是特定技能二號，一號跟二號的差別就是，他可以攜眷，可以讓他的配偶、子女都跟著到日本長住，然後之後可以取得永久居留權，你知道嗎？特定技能一號就沒有。"],["洪部長申翰：委員講的是日本的制度。"],["林委員淑芬：在這種狀況裡面引進特定的簽證制度，不但提供就業機會，而且要當員工一樣的對待外籍移工，成為他們職涯上的引導者，透過政府的各種支援措施，包括文化適應、形象管理、語言訓練、技能提升等。移工在這種狀況裡面，特別是外籍看護移工如果在臺灣的話，他就不是短期的、填充的、補充缺口的人力，而是我們要當他是可以培育、可以發展的人才。我們這裡提供的不只是就業機會，未來也有可能是全家攜家帶眷永久居留，要把這種移工當成是未來可能人才的概念，帶到我們的長照體系裡面來，把他訓練成為長照體系專業可用的、可長可久的人力和人才，這樣是不是一種誘因？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們非常願意參考日本的經驗，委員剛才在講的事情就是日本的技術人力相關制度，它設計讓這個技術能力，包括有技能的學習與檢核，包括語言的學習與檢核，但確實它這一套制度也涉及到他是在海外的時候、在母國的時候就進行這些工作。我們其實部裡面是非常非常願意往這個方向思考跟規劃的。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在要跟你講的意思是，這是結構性的因素，因為大家來，家庭看護工的待遇、薪水、工時、勞動條件等真的比廠工還要差，都非常差。這個結構因素注定了很多人申請來當家庭看護工之後，不久就要當跳板轉換到我們的工廠裡面。我們知道臺灣現在不允許自由轉換雇主，因為不允許自由轉換雇主，所以仲介都教他們吵架，他跟他的雇主吵架、早晚吵架、每天吵架，吵到雇主受不了，他偷跑對雇主也沒有好處，所以不如同意讓他轉換雇主，現在現場的衝突就是這樣子，這麼嚴重了。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，再讓我補充。我們是非常非常願意跟衛福部一起來討論、來思考，比方如果是有照顧專長的外籍技術人力的話，是不是有機會可以進到我們的長照系統裡面，擔任一些相對應的角色？當然，這裡面可能他會需要語言的學習或者是一些技能的學習，在這中間我們怎麼透過公部門的資源去協助這些語言的學習或技能上面的學習？也就是說，需要跟長照的體系來結合……"],["林委員淑芬：你講的是擔任主管的職務和角色，可是在家庭裡面，以我們現在的長照制度，外籍移工的看護就是到個別家庭裡面，沒有什麼主管啦。"],["洪部長申翰：我講的不是主管，我講的不是主管，我講的是……"],["林委員淑芬：次長要講。"],["洪部長申翰：我講的是技術人力，因為現在留的時間比較久的話，其實有機會可以轉成技術人力。"],["林委員淑芬：因為照顧一個失能的人平均要7年到10年。"],["洪部長申翰：對，我講的是，如果他可以成為有技能、有照顧專業的技術人力的時候，我們怎麼跟衛福部接下來討論在兩個機制之間有一些接合的點，讓這個照顧專長的人力在長照的體系裡面也有角色、有位子，我們很願意來嘗試這個方向。"],["林委員淑芬：對呀，所以次長，你來講講你的想法和做法，你覺得可行性是怎麼樣？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，誠如剛剛洪部長說的，現在兩部會來全力推動。我也跟委員報告，其實我們現在已經有兩個機制，一個是去年在輔英科技大學就有一班從越南那邊招過來的，在這裡接受兩年的訓練之後，他可以在臺灣待兩個3年，如果都沒有問題，勞動部就給他一個中階勞動力的資格，他如果通過之後，最主要是在我們機構服務，因為說實在的，我們本勞……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在在講家庭看護工的困境，你不要講到機構去。"],["呂次長建德：沒關係……"],["林委員淑芬：機構就適用勞基法了啊。"],["呂次長建德：我跟委員報告，我們現在也在鼓勵，現在有二十幾萬的家庭看護，對不對？我們也可以來訓練，訓練以後，他就可以進入我們的中階勞動力……"],["林委員淑芬：你說的訓練，進入哪裡？進入哪裡啦！"],["呂次長建德：進入機構啊！我跟委員報告……"],["林委員淑芬：我們現在講的是，每一個家庭看護工如果持續成為家庭看護工，譬如要7年到10年。"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["林委員淑芬：這7年到10年，我跟你說，氣喘的人沒辦法忍得住咳嗽，他進來沒幾天就想走了啦，因為沒前途、沒未來、薪水低……"],["呂次長建德：沒有，委員，這些人如果能訓練成中階勞動力，他的薪資會變到2萬8。"],["林委員淑芬：那個是……"],["呂次長建德：有辦法到2萬8啦。"],["林委員淑芬：那是要轉換完。對，2萬8就是現在的現況，你們現況要求薪水多少？2萬啦！不是啦，我在講家庭看護工。"],["洪部長申翰：家庭看護工最低是2萬。"],["林委員淑芬：2萬，可是事實上務實面、實務面，2萬有人嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：現在大概給2萬2、2萬3。"],["林委員淑芬：什麼2萬2？現在都兩、三萬，兩、三萬可以跟廠工的薪水待遇比嗎？"],["呂次長建德：委員，當然是這樣子，根據勞動經濟學，這跟單位生產力也有關係啊。"],["林委員淑芬：我跟你說，這是結構上的問題。為什麼逃跑？為什麼待不住？因為家庭看護工一天24小時、一年365天，你還可以加班費給他，不讓他休息。然後勞動條件這麼差，薪水不要說2萬，就算雇主給3萬，他們看到同鄉去工廠工作還有加班，一個月領5萬、6萬，這樣要不要吵架？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，也就是因為剛剛你提到的這些現象，所以現在我們的確很願意再去思考一個重要的事情是，假設他現在是外籍的看護工，他的薪資確實比較低，如果他可以成為中階的技術工，接下來在一個什麼樣子的條件下面，有可能可以成為長照體系裡面的一員，成為長照體系一員的時候，他可以擁有的國家協助跟資源就會跟他現在單純的情況不一樣……"],["林委員淑芬：你現在不要空中畫大餅……"],["洪部長申翰：不是……"],["林委員淑芬：我問你們，為什麼講你空中畫大餅？你們國家的資源更多會進來，那你短照經費今年就編不夠了。短照經費不是缺了嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們補上了。"],["林委員淑芬：你們國家資源給外籍看護工有兩種，一個是勞動部的就安基金移撥出來的短照經費，一個是衛福部納入的喘息計畫，一年多少錢？夠嗎？未來增加80歲以上免巴氏量表要增加多少人？你的經費有相對應地編列了嗎？不要講新增加的……"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，這在8月已經完成編列了，已經完成……"],["林委員淑芬：你編列多少錢？來，你編列多少錢？因為網路上有民眾在7月底的時候反映，被通知短照服務的經費不足，而在113年執行率是173%，114年（今年）到5月的時候，5月喔，執行率是101%。現在短照經費全部沒了，然後長照只剩下長照一年84小時。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，上禮拜已經召開就業安定管理會……"],["林委員淑芬：我知道啦。"],["洪部長申翰：我們補上了……因為原本的確我們有低估，所以我們把差額、包括明年的部分把它追加補上。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在問你的是，這麼結構性的問題，你說引進國家資源，叫這些家庭看護工把自己培養成專業的，然後技能上納入我們國家的中級技術專業人力，那麼他可以用國家更多資源。國家是有多少資源？國家資源不夠，就長照那84小時，多少錢？長照多少錢？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，目前在這個部分我們跟勞動部密切配合，總共加起來是六億八千六百……"],["林委員淑芬：不要講總共加起來，你們長照……"],["呂次長建德：兩邊加起來6億啊，我們本部是編3.4億，勞動部也幫忙編3.4億……"],["林委員淑芬：這樣總共6億叫做……"],["呂次長建德：對，我們share啊。"],["林委員淑芬：6億給二十幾萬的家庭看護移工用……"],["呂次長建德：沒有，不是這樣，我們這是擴大喘息服務，我們這是擴大的喔，委員，這要澄清，這是第一點。"],["林委員淑芬：喘息就是給長照體系……"],["呂次長建德：我們現在是擴大喘息……"],["林委員淑芬：我們說的是移工納入長照適用喘息。"],["呂次長建德：對啊。"],["林委員淑芬：所以移工用到的又更少囉。"],["呂次長建德：不是，現在移工的部分就是勞動部的短照服務。"],["洪部長申翰：短照、長照都可以用。"],["呂次長建德：對，都可以。"],["林委員淑芬：短照服務過去編兩億多，現在又追加嘛。"],["呂次長建德：但是我委員報告，我們那邊是鼓勵大家先來用我們的擴大喘息，這個我必須要說……"],["林委員淑芬：你們加起來六、七億，也是很少的啦。"],["呂次長建德：沒有，擴大喘息是6億，但是勞動部就業安定基金現在又編5億嘛，總數到8億了，所以兩個加起來是14億，我跟委員報告。"],["林委員淑芬：你的6億是普通人也在用的，不是只有外籍移工專用的嘛……"],["呂次長建德：對啦，那個擴大喘息就是家庭照……"],["林委員淑芬：外籍移工是用多少啦？"],["呂次長建德：沒有，那個擴大喘息服務就是我們家庭照顧者，還有外看。"],["林委員淑芬：短照服務是……"],["呂次長建德：短照是外看。"],["林委員淑芬：是外看專用的嘛。"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["洪部長申翰：短照是外籍看護，當時是因為七修一，希望能夠讓外籍看護可以有週休，所以我們規劃了短照。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊，所以總的來講，以前是一年預算才3億，今年來講，我剛剛講的，113年執行率是173%，今年到5月就101%了，你們才發現不足，所以你們才要追加到五、六億嘛。本來是3億，現在是6億，可能五、六億，可是這夠嗎？你剛剛講說……我一直跟你講，這個結構上的問題會造成聘僱外籍移工的家庭雇主跟移工之間很多的摩擦，那個摩擦的目的是為了不能自由轉換雇主而去製造衝突，讓他可以轉換出去，這種結構來自於薪資結構的不平等，來自於勞動條件上的特別惡劣。在沒有辦法解決薪資結構、也沒有辦法解決勞動條件的惡劣狀況下，你有沒有透過其他的制度，比如像日本的制度設計了未來允許攜眷來日本永久居留，用類似這種制度來留住看護的人力，然後居留下來，讓他可以忍受一時的難處，看到未來他可以永久居留，而有一個誘因，因為這個誘因只存在於外籍看護工，而廠工可能門檻更高，我們應該設計類似這樣的機制。否則你在這裡打高空，說叫國家扛起長照責任、失能照顧責任，但國家不願意，一直退位，然後仰賴仲介，讓仲介控制著市場和政策。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，第一個，我們其實現在也正在檢討技術人力的制度，而技術人力制度的檢討也是正在參考日本的做法，所以我們近期包括發展署也不斷地在跟日本交流，就是希望能夠參考日本相關的做法，因為日本的某些作法真的是值得我們參考的，這是第一個。第二個，的確在制度上面，如果他成為中階的技術人力之後，比方他回去的年限就可以拿掉，所以技術人力是可以長期留下來的。"],["林委員淑芬：是。"],["洪部長申翰：所以為什麼我剛才跟委員說，我們很希望怎麼樣來協助藍領的移工，他可以更順暢地轉成技術人力，然後在這個部分，他可能會有相對應的權利保障，甚至資源。"],["林委員淑芬：配套更多？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["林委員淑芬：你剛剛講的資源就只有你們的短照，還有喘息服務，這是不夠的。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我的意思不是只有短照，我剛才說如果他今天一個照顧的技術人力的話，他就可以進到國家的社福體系裡面，國家社福體系的資源會比他只能從一定雇主，尤其是會比一般雇主來得更加豐富。"],["林委員淑芬：國家的體系裡面能夠提供的就業機會是多少啦？整個長照失能體系，國家都退位……"],["呂次長建德：沒有退位啦！我們的照服員從2萬5,000塊增加到現在10萬了。"],["林委員淑芬：你去問照服員的待遇看有沒有穩定。"],["呂次長建德：現在也增加到4萬，馬英九的時候2萬5,000塊，我們現在4萬啊！"],["林委員淑芬：應該這樣說，馬英九時代一年長照的經費50億，現在已經將近上千億了，我們當然知道。"],["呂次長建德：對啊！所以民進黨政府現在很負責任嘛。"],["林委員淑芬：現在你去問照服員，每一個失能家庭配到的時數是多少？遠遠少於需求，我們知道蔡英文總統任內把它上升到八百多億；賴總統任內上升到九百多億。"],["呂次長建德：對、對。"],["林委員淑芬：可是你要知道整個失能照顧的體系，不是上千億就足夠的，也還是都不夠嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：委員，你剛才講到結構的困境，我們都是同意的，所以要解這個結構的困境，勢必是需要國家的資源進去導入，才能夠緩解包括你剛才講弱弱相殘的狀況，所以資源包括制度上面，因為今天在移工聘僱體系裡面，坦白說它的確是一個相對市場機制，可是今天在長照的資源面……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有、沒有，不是市場機制，你忘了家庭看護工是我們用政策，硬生生地把它從勞基法適用裡面排除掉的。"],["洪部長申翰：是，沒錯。"],["林委員淑芬：這個不是市場機制。"],["洪部長申翰：是，但是需要一些國家的資源，才能夠去緩解剛才在講的那個結構的困境，這就是為什麼我們跟衛福部包括呂次長一直在談，我們希望未來在這裡面能夠有所突破，就是透過技術人力，能不能成為技術人力或是讓技術人力的相關配套更健全，這部分我們也在參考日本的制度。"],["林委員淑芬：誘因要看得到、吃得到，要實惠而不是口惠，是這樣子，希望你們回去再想一想，先這樣子。我最後再講一句，不是在這裡說有10萬人增加資格了，是不是馬上缺工10萬人，不是討論這個東西，還有比馬上缺多少工更重要的事，永遠都在缺，因為勞動上不公平、不平等的結構如果存在的話，讓你再10萬人來也是這個問題，都是這個問題，還有不要把移工當成源源不絕，永遠有啦！沒辦法那麼好，所以我們真的要好好思考我們的勞動力政策，未來少子化、超高齡化，臺灣的問題也是全世界的問題，真的很嚴重。"],["主席：好，謝謝，請回。","接下來請王正旭委員，今天是王正旭委員的聖誕千秋，我們恭祝他生日快樂。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":220,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-25","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","林淑芬","王正旭","陳瑩","盧縣一","楊曜","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","何欣純"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2025-08-20"],"gazette_id":"1147502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長、衛生福利部就「就業服務法第46條，80歲以上長者聘請外籍看護免巴氏量\n表上路，對重症家庭的衝擊與配套措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審查 (一）委員王\n育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(二）委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人\n自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九\n條及第十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正\n草案」案、(五)委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案【逐條\n討論】","agenda_id":"1147502_00002"}}}