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0.995}, {\"word\": \"N\", \"start\": 591.631, \"end\": 592.071, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 592.071, \"end\": 592.211, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"口\", \"start\": 592.211, \"end\": 592.451, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"罩\", \"start\": 592.451, \"end\": 592.691, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 592.691, \"end\": 592.851, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 592.851, \"end\": 593.111, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 593.111, \"end\": 593.231, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 593.231, \"end\": 593.351, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"戴\", \"start\": 593.351, \"end\": 593.491, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 593.491, \"end\": 593.811, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 593.811, \"end\": 593.951, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 593.951, \"end\": 594.351, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"使\", \"start\": 619.485, \"end\": 619.605, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 619.605, \"end\": 619.765, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 619.765, \"end\": 619.885, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 619.885, \"end\": 620.486, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 620.486, \"end\": 620.766, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 620.766, \"end\": 620.926, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 620.926, \"end\": 621.166, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 621.166, \"end\": 621.186, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"拋\"}, {\"word\": \"棄\"}]}, {\"start\": 625.017, \"end\": 644.721, \"text\": \"如果手上有接觸到的話那現在的宣導的我們的衛教裡面也是希望要洗手把他洗乾淨因為我現在講的每個環節其實都有可能民眾都會吸入這些纖維所以我提到的我也希望你們能夠針對我的問題來做實質的回答\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 625.017, \"end\": 625.137, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 625.137, \"end\": 625.297, \"score\": 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\"text\": \"那你們應該有提供這個食物上有用的資訊例如說身體皮膚衣服上也有可能都有食棉纖維那當地呢又停水停電洗澡是不方便的如何有效的解決這個食棉暴露的問題我們應該要更專業才是\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 647.682, \"end\": 648.163, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 648.163, \"end\": 649.544, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 649.544, \"end\": 649.764, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 649.764, \"end\": 649.924, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"供\", \"start\": 649.924, \"end\": 650.445, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"食\", \"start\": 650.445, \"end\": 650.605, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"物\", \"start\": 650.605, \"end\": 650.805, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 650.805, \"end\": 651.686, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 651.686, \"end\": 651.886, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 651.886, \"end\": 652.126, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 652.126, \"end\": 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694.855, \"end\": 707.13, \"text\": \"但通常等到確診的時候差不多都是晚期必死無疑了那你再看一下這張照片我們看一下這個勞動部的人全副武裝\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 694.855, \"end\": 695.316, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 695.316, \"end\": 695.636, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 695.636, \"end\": 695.936, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 695.936, \"end\": 696.057, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 696.057, \"end\": 696.617, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"診\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 696.617, \"end\": 696.998, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 696.998, \"end\": 697.318, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"差\", \"start\": 697.318, \"end\": 697.418, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 697.418, \"end\": 697.498, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 697.498, \"end\": 697.619, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 697.619, \"end\": 697.759, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"是\", 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--> 00:00:32,990\n謝謝主席我先會議詢問一下您可以先請坐是這樣我們最近其實立法院加檢都有一些同仁做聽力測驗的時候其實耳朵聽力有些受損\n\n3\n00:00:33,931 --> 00:01:00,577\n那聽力受損呢其實並不是說對於這個聲音大小聲聽不見倒不是這樣而是對於這種高頻或低頻好特定這些頻率的這個聲音會聽不清楚聽得到聲音但聽不清楚那當然這個長期有跟在處於這種噪音或者是那種就很大聲的這種環境是有關係的\n\n4\n00:01:02,156 --> 00:01:31,463\n那所以我要在這邊也替大家爭取一下我們這個健康的權益因為畢竟我們未還掌管這個監督勞動部衛福部跟環境部那重點是這個勞工申請職災如果真的說因為工作環境的關係聽力受損那鑑定之後我們還可以申請職災但是大部分現場是公務人員還有我們這種公職人員是沒有這種待遇的\n\n5\n00:01:32,563 --> 00:01:59,556\n那因為我們雖然立法院總務處幫我們設了那個分貝的那個測試的那個東西但是我覺得我也不是很確定說這個這個角度我們在執行是不是我們會看那邊還是看哪邊但是那個數字他就算超標了也不會逼也不會叫所以講話的人就不會有就不會控制那我要提的是\n\n6\n00:02:00,396 --> 00:02:28,285\n在人在70分貝就長期大概10分鐘連續處於這個70分貝以上的這個你會覺得心情很煩躁常常心情煩躁可能這個未來憂鬱症躁鬱症點點點可能都會跑出來再來還有些立委真的聲音很大常常超過80分貝那這個真的就是對聽力會直接造成損害所以這個部分\n\n7\n00:02:30,031 --> 00:02:48,401\n你們我不是開玩笑我真的建議大家年紀也有了做聽力測驗特別這個音頻高頻低頻到底聽不聽得到大家真的要去檢查一下那這個部分我想身為身為這個未還委員會的委員我們沒有辦法去要求就是說那個委員的音量\n\n8\n00:02:49,625 --> 00:03:12,936\n在每一次質詢都要控制在這個70分貝以下但是我們有因控啊因控在外面你坐在那邊你看得到那個分貝的數字嗎你如果看不到那我們可能也是要跟總務講一下看看要怎麼樣讓你隨時掌控這個數字因為你們坐在這邊是整天連續幾個小時耶我這樣講沒有道理\n\n9\n00:03:14,642 --> 00:03:24,861\n對啊在座各位都是公務人員你們是不能申請這種職災的賠償喔我先把醜話講在前頭我剛剛查了一下法規那個意外死亡有\n\n10\n00:03:28,086 --> 00:03:46,918\n所以這個部分我想起碼這是未還委員會我們應該要以身作則第一個這個側分貝的東西看這個位置是不是能夠讓大家很清楚特別是在講話的人那最好超標的時候他會逼\n\n11\n00:03:48,099 --> 00:04:07,384\n會叫提醒說一定要小聲一點因為除了很大聲以外講話時間也不會控制啊還要看心情你管了一下搞不好又吵起來會更大聲更久所以我想我真的觀察很久也忍耐很久了我覺得為了大家聽力的健康請我們\n\n12\n00:04:08,605 --> 00:04:28,038\n衛環委員會以身作則那當擔任主席擔任召委的人也可以對於這個我們質詢的環境這個噪音音量可以有所掌控我想做這樣沉痛的呼籲跟建議好謝謝主席你有要回應一下嗎\n\n13\n00:04:32,075 --> 00:04:45,793\n謝謝陳燕委員剛剛的引重心長給大家的提示因為剛好我們趙委不在我會把您的意見充分的反映給他做參考跟次長一樣主席可以做才是\n\n14\n00:04:47,895 --> 00:05:13,715\n不過剛剛建議到說如果他的音量或者是CO2的濃度超到一定的標準而且是損害到健康的話我們可以洽請秘書處可以反映說是不是有其他的機制可以讓現場的人知道我們所處的環境裡面應該要多住哪一些我想主席跟我就在這裡具體建議了我們這個部分一定要來做改善跟控管\n\n15\n00:05:14,415 --> 00:05:16,781\n好那謝謝那主席我要麻煩請這個我們勞動部次長請陳次長委員好\n\n16\n00:05:24,358 --> 00:05:49,210\n市長好在這次丹納市颱風造成南部地區發生嚴重的災情很多的台南沿海地區的鄉親們屋頂都被吹走了其實看了也是讓人覺得很揪心很同情我知道說你們勞動部也成立了四個災後防護服務站\n\n17\n00:05:50,100 --> 00:06:14,517\n以及這個宣導團那部長在7月26號的時候也有去現場去關心也制正了一些宣導品那本席也給予這個勞動部的同仁予以肯定但是呢在這個災後防護它不是兒戲我們要用很嚴肅的這個態度來面對它一年疫情都會受到我們這個\n\n18\n00:06:16,438 --> 00:06:34,719\n全國同胞的這個嚴格檢定然後特別是災區的這個鄉親們那我想要先請教一下次長這次的這個防護你們好像比較偏重在這個失眠粉塵的這個部分那除了N95口罩以外你們還有提供什麼防護物資嗎\n\n19\n00:06:39,710 --> 00:06:55,476\n跟委員報告除了那個N95口罩我們還有護目鏡還有防護手套還有防護衣你們還有一個太空包你們還提供了太空包我們是裝在防護包裡面\n\n20\n00:06:58,007 --> 00:07:18,645\n所以你不叫太空包那個叫防護包是嗎那個是裝實名的是太空袋我們俗稱為太空包太空袋那個是袋子所以我講太空袋太空包防護包你們都聽得懂啦都是一樣的東西不一樣防護包是給個人的好那就是那個叫什麼太空\n\n21\n00:07:20,216 --> 00:07:40,045\n太空包裝的是那個裝你們去裝那些拆下來的拆下來的石棉瓦拆下來的石棉瓦是放在放在太空包好那沒有錯那沒有錯好那我剛一開始就沒有講錯啊對啊那你幹嘛生出那麼多名詞來\n\n22\n00:07:42,045 --> 00:07:54,955\n好那次長我們再看一下這個N95口罩其實要能夠就是密合才有這個防護的效果嘛那你們去輔導同仁有教導民眾如何佩戴嗎\n\n23\n00:07:58,632 --> 00:08:21,574\n跟委員報告因為在我們的這個宣導品裡面是有那如果說影片的話我們在網路上指南水官網上也有這個配戴這個N95口罩的一個示範的影片因為我知道部長也有去示範那請問一下部長鬍子這麼濃密戴N95口罩是戴得老的嗎\n\n24\n00:08:27,810 --> 00:08:50,503\n基本上那個跟委員報告N95我們買的是那個3M的基本上這個佩戴的話它是符合一般人的一個聯型所以部長算一般人嗎我提這個我也是很認真的提出這樣的問題因為很多人他們會有\n\n25\n00:08:52,120 --> 00:09:14,777\n鬍子嗎會留鬍子有的是上面八字鬍有的是下面烙塞鬍烙塞鬍應該是面積更大吧那你們遇到這樣的狀況的時候在宣導上是不是也要做一些特別的處理因為我的疑問是這樣到底戴不戴得牢如果沒有問題你就跟我說沒有問題就好了\n\n26\n00:09:16,656 --> 00:09:32,865\n是它這個跟尾巴它是有一個後面有一個豎影帶基本上戴上去的話我們測試來講就是你在呼吸的時候不要吸到外面的空氣從旁邊進來基本上它就是比較一般性的測試啦對所以有鬍子是有幫助的\n\n27\n00:09:33,405 --> 00:09:55,692\n因為空間空氣可能會比較多但是因為我們接下來我們今天在討論失眠啦所以我現在提出這個問題是很嚴肅的問題嘛那畢竟就是說就是說你看處理這個到要處理這個失眠的這些飛機我們都需要用到N95的口罩了啊所以戴的勞是很要戴勞是很重要的\n\n28\n00:09:56,212 --> 00:10:21,186\n那如果說真的有隔離到失眠失眠纖維它就會吸附在口罩的這個罩體上所以民眾取下來的時候會不會沾在手上然後再間接進入人體有沒有這樣的可能性跟委員報告失眠的危害主要是吸入所以這個口罩如果他當天使用完的話我們是建議要拋棄\n\n29\n00:10:25,017 --> 00:10:44,721\n如果手上有接觸到的話那現在的宣導的我們的衛教裡面也是希望要洗手把他洗乾淨因為我現在講的每個環節其實都有可能民眾都會吸入這些纖維所以我提到的我也希望你們能夠針對我的問題來做實質的回答\n\n30\n00:10:47,682 --> 00:11:05,779\n那你們應該有提供這個食物上有用的資訊例如說身體皮膚衣服上也有可能都有食棉纖維那當地呢又停水停電洗澡是不方便的如何有效的解決這個食棉暴露的問題我們應該要更專業才是\n\n31\n00:11:09,022 --> 00:11:34,195\n那這邊我們來看一張這張圖在失眠放大之後失眠瓦放大之後它就是無數根的這個鋼針看起來很恐怖那這些失眠纖維被吸入我們這個人體之後這些鋼針就會刺入肺泡然後造成慢性發炎潛伏期大概15年到35年左右\n\n32\n00:11:34,855 --> 00:11:47,130\n但通常等到確診的時候差不多都是晚期必死無疑了那你再看一下這張照片我們看一下這個勞動部的人全副武裝\n\n33\n00:11:48,274 --> 00:12:15,585\n但是呢中間的民眾毫無防護那你們不是要去做宣導嗎那這種場景是很奇怪的啊好到底說這樣子的這個輔導防護你們覺得有達到效果嗎你們就請給別人看別人等到死那沒關係這個我們再來看接下來這張照片\n\n34\n00:12:17,242 --> 00:12:41,755\n石棉瓦堆積的場地有人戴口罩有人沒有戴底下還有一支大鐵錘表示就是說這是破碎用的工具嘛那難道不是應該就是說要拉起這個封鎖線嗎要稍微隔離一下也都沒有啊然後呢我另外我再講一下剛剛講那個太空包\n\n35\n00:12:42,850 --> 00:12:56,996\n太空包我認為根本就不適合拿來裝這些石棉瓦的廢棄物因為體積的關係你的太空包就這麼大而已然後你必須要先集穗\n\n36\n00:12:58,317 --> 00:13:18,985\n好然後去毀損這些石棉瓦讓它變小一點之後然後就然後再放進去嘛那這個積碎這個過程你就會造成這個石棉瓦纖維就會易散啊好所以這個是你們要未來要去檢討思考的每個人都在那邊敲敲打打這個是這反而是很不好的\n\n37\n00:13:20,205 --> 00:13:42,411\n那我想這樣子的這個作業環境除了就是說勞工很危險之外呢附近的人也會遭受到暴露嘛特別是我要講的是你們安研所的人都是專門在負責這些勞工安全衛生的這個研究跟宣導嘛那還有包括你們那個勞動部這個重建中心的這些同仁\n\n38\n00:13:43,371 --> 00:14:05,109\n難道這些都沒有具備這些常識嗎好這些防護的這些常識應該都是他們要最清楚比其他人更清楚才是啊結果是做這樣子的示範那我還想問一下就是說你們勞動部的安嚴所有沒有去做失眠濃度的檢測有沒有\n\n39\n00:14:08,021 --> 00:14:28,184\n有做嗎目前是跟那個我們內部已經跟研究所談好了就是外界在關心說這一次的一個在這個現場的一個暴露情形所以我們研究所是準備開始要進行的所以現在才準備開始進行前面那個敲敲打打的去搜的那個都來不及了\n\n40\n00:14:32,347 --> 00:14:53,240\n8月6號我們自己的勞檢機構也有派員到現場沒關係反正你們已經啟動不管來不來得及總是比沒有好那這次的這個實面暴露高風險的事件有這個專業SENS的單位他們一定會去做研究然後把相關作業的勞工名單清澈都建立起來\n\n41\n00:14:53,740 --> 00:15:07,113\n就是說萬一將來有人得到這個肩皮細胞癌的時候才可以得到應有的補償你才有的追蹤嘛所以我想要請教一下就是說我們剛剛看了幾張照片這些人有沒有造冊\n\n42\n00:15:10,874 --> 00:15:35,277\n各位報告我們現在跟那個微服部也討論過了如果是涉及到這個營造業者業者的話他名單未來我們會送給我們我們會到我們的勞保局那邊去追蹤我講的不是這些營造業者是這些穿制服不是你們的人嗎看前面幾張照片這些穿那個背心的啊\n\n43\n00:15:36,980 --> 00:15:43,918\n那是我們的輔導員他們有沒有有名車我們也有好就要好好的追蹤好\n\n44\n00:15:46,202 --> 00:16:08,264\n我們再看簡報6的部分右邊是環境部棚部長在風災後他們受損的石棉瓦的暫時放置為了避免石棉瓦的纖維易散所以他們用帆布先整個蓋起來專業程度就立判高下\n\n45\n00:16:09,545 --> 00:16:37,511\n他們就沒有用那個太空包啦所以在這張照片比較起來這個環境部就是勝這看起來比較專業那我想這一次你們這一次就是說我的形容叫做我不認為這個叫做有以身作則啦反正你們這次去做輔導那除了好像比較偏重在這個失眠以外像其他的\n\n46\n00:16:38,331 --> 00:16:50,140\n跌倒踩踏切割穿刺滑倒高架作業墜落都沒有看到這個災後防護我想請教一下次長你們有沒有統計這一次的這個服務及輔導的成效\n\n47\n00:16:52,282 --> 00:17:16,861\n報委員謝謝委員苦民所苦有關於實免法這部分環境部第一時間在台南跟嘉義都設置了堆置場但是相應的拆除的工作在一開始的現場因為有大概3萬棟左右的房屋屋頂先受損所以大家剛開始的時候是蓋房部然後下面的實免會有一些問題所以勞動部紅部長第一時間就要求\n\n48\n00:17:17,641 --> 00:17:36,048\n指安署的副署長下去前進指揮所然後設四個服務站相關的輔導團先備制了一些物資讓大家緊急的用但是實際上真的實棉拆除是一個專業的工作那這部分未來應該目前我們跟環保署大家在處理當中應該有專業的\n\n49\n00:17:37,989 --> 00:18:01,854\n業者來做處理那相關的從業人員中間有接觸到這一些實名軌跡的我們都會把它造冊來追蹤相應的一些後續的注意那至於說其他的部分當然主要會是在剛開始的時候疫情期間是在最早的時候爬上爬下屋頂會不會有一些墜落的問題所以後來相關的屋頂的\n\n50\n00:18:02,734 --> 00:18:23,932\n相應的處理從業中心是請國內的相關營造業者以一環計及的方式用公辦的方式去做相應的協助那在相關的處理當做過程裡面包括鷹架的搭設各方面都會都有跟相關的從業人員做一些說明和處理那至於剛才我們所講的數據的部分我們會後再來做統整\n\n51\n00:18:25,489 --> 00:18:46,367\n好那就是你們那個成果數據再麻煩給我們辦公室那另外就是說我快速再問一下我也我覺得蠻疑惑就是說那難道就是說只有這個台南有防護站然後雲林嘉義跟高雄他們都沒有是不是是沒有防護的必要\n\n52\n00:18:48,369 --> 00:19:14,609\n這邊因為實棉是早期的產品那洪部長在有指示研究所的唯平主要去做實棉濃度的處理這是第一件事那第二個部分就是說不好意思那個災後防護不會只有實棉我前面講實棉我後面已經開始講到那個啦跌倒踩踏點點點等等的那個很多很多\n\n53\n00:19:16,546 --> 00:19:31,659\n這種華島高架作業墜落的這種災後防護了這邊我們在相應的措施上會再來注意所以現在目前雲林嘉義高雄都沒有嗎都有我們有些是透過你們有去台東嗎台東啊台東有去嗎\n\n54\n00:19:38,922 --> 00:20:03,252\n就沒有嗎我才去一個像學校棒球場牛棚屋頂整個吹破那個到時候也是會有可能可能那種就是高價墜落這種作業的問題也是會有啊我是提醒你們稍微注意評估一下啦那這樣來說如果再有類似的風災勞動部會比照這一次就說再去現場提供這個災後防護的輔導嗎未來都會吧\n\n55\n00:20:06,138 --> 00:20:27,518\n好那那個就是說因為以前是沒有看過你們有這樣的服務雖然是說災後過了一段好一段時間才去但是就是說還是要給你們肯定啦但我希望這個未來期程可能要就是說要加速要加速那最後我再提醒勞動部就是說我們要去輔導民眾除了說專業要足夠\n\n56\n00:20:30,919 --> 00:20:40,715\n我覺得跟在地災民這個感同身受設身處地的去服務這個也是要很注意那不是說我們穿著背心就代表專業\n\n57\n00:20:42,582 --> 00:21:07,929\n要用心認真相信民眾就會有感那提供服務的人員一定要有訓練同時還要有專業才可以提供更好的服務不要說只是說只是去送東西然後沒有考慮說民眾會不會用到可以用多久我想這樣的服務很快就不會受到就會人家會起反感啦所以我想這些細節我在這邊提醒要請你們要重視\n\n58\n00:21:09,114 --> 00:21:17,860\n好謝謝委員有關於相關的細節的部分我們會把它Reit得更清楚謝謝我們的指點我們將來在相關的部分再把它做得更完整一點好謝謝好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n430\t12049\t請陳英文發言稍微就這樣走了嗎\n17014\t32990\t謝謝主席我先會議詢問一下您可以先請坐是這樣我們最近其實立法院加檢都有一些同仁做聽力測驗的時候其實耳朵聽力有些受損\n33931\t60577\t那聽力受損呢其實並不是說對於這個聲音大小聲聽不見倒不是這樣而是對於這種高頻或低頻好特定這些頻率的這個聲音會聽不清楚聽得到聲音但聽不清楚那當然這個長期有跟在處於這種噪音或者是那種就很大聲的這種環境是有關係的\n62156\t91463\t那所以我要在這邊也替大家爭取一下我們這個健康的權益因為畢竟我們未還掌管這個監督勞動部衛福部跟環境部那重點是這個勞工申請職災如果真的說因為工作環境的關係聽力受損那鑑定之後我們還可以申請職災但是大部分現場是公務人員還有我們這種公職人員是沒有這種待遇的\n92563\t119556\t那因為我們雖然立法院總務處幫我們設了那個分貝的那個測試的那個東西但是我覺得我也不是很確定說這個這個角度我們在執行是不是我們會看那邊還是看哪邊但是那個數字他就算超標了也不會逼也不會叫所以講話的人就不會有就不會控制那我要提的是\n120396\t148285\t在人在70分貝就長期大概10分鐘連續處於這個70分貝以上的這個你會覺得心情很煩躁常常心情煩躁可能這個未來憂鬱症躁鬱症點點點可能都會跑出來再來還有些立委真的聲音很大常常超過80分貝那這個真的就是對聽力會直接造成損害所以這個部分\n150031\t168401\t你們我不是開玩笑我真的建議大家年紀也有了做聽力測驗特別這個音頻高頻低頻到底聽不聽得到大家真的要去檢查一下那這個部分我想身為身為這個未還委員會的委員我們沒有辦法去要求就是說那個委員的音量\n169625\t192936\t在每一次質詢都要控制在這個70分貝以下但是我們有因控啊因控在外面你坐在那邊你看得到那個分貝的數字嗎你如果看不到那我們可能也是要跟總務講一下看看要怎麼樣讓你隨時掌控這個數字因為你們坐在這邊是整天連續幾個小時耶我這樣講沒有道理\n194642\t204861\t對啊 在座各位都是公務人員你們是不能申請這種職災的賠償喔我先把醜話講在前頭我剛剛查了一下法規那個意外死亡有\n208086\t226918\t所以這個部分我想起碼這是未還委員會我們應該要以身作則第一個這個側分貝的東西看這個位置是不是能夠讓大家很清楚特別是在講話的人那最好超標的時候他會逼\n228099\t247384\t會叫提醒說一定要小聲一點因為除了很大聲以外講話時間也不會控制啊還要看心情你管了一下搞不好又吵起來會更大聲更久所以我想我真的觀察很久也忍耐很久了我覺得為了大家聽力的健康請我們\n248605\t268038\t衛環委員會以身作則那當擔任主席 擔任召委的人也可以對於這個我們質詢的環境這個噪音 音量可以有所掌控我想做這樣沉痛的呼籲跟建議好 謝謝主席你有要回應一下嗎\n272075\t285793\t謝謝陳燕委員剛剛的引重心長給大家的提示因為剛好我們趙委不在我會把您的意見充分的反映給他做參考跟次長一樣主席可以做才是\n287895\t313715\t不過剛剛建議到說如果他的音量或者是CO2的濃度超到一定的標準而且是損害到健康的話我們可以洽請秘書處可以反映說是不是有其他的機制可以讓現場的人知道我們所處的環境裡面應該要多住哪一些我想主席跟我就在這裡具體建議了我們這個部分一定要來做改善跟控管\n314415\t316781\t好那謝謝那主席我要麻煩請這個我們勞動部次長請陳次長委員好\n324358\t349210\t市長好 在這次丹納市颱風造成南部地區發生嚴重的災情很多的台南沿海地區的鄉親們屋頂都被吹走了其實看了也是讓人覺得很揪心很同情我知道說你們勞動部也成立了四個災後防護服務站\n350100\t374517\t以及這個宣導團那部長在7月26號的時候也有去現場去關心也制正了一些宣導品那本席也給予這個勞動部的同仁予以肯定但是呢在這個災後防護它不是兒戲我們要用很嚴肅的這個態度來面對它一年疫情都會受到我們這個\n376438\t394719\t全國同胞的這個嚴格檢定然後特別是災區的這個鄉親們那我想要先請教一下次長這次的這個防護你們好像比較偏重在這個失眠粉塵的這個部分那除了N95口罩以外你們還有提供什麼防護物資嗎\n399710\t415476\t跟委員報告 除了那個N95口罩 我們還有護目鏡還有防護手套 還有防護衣你們還有一個 太空包你們還提供了太空包我們是裝在防護包裡面\n418007\t438645\t所以你不叫太空包那個叫防護包是嗎那個是裝實名的是太空袋我們俗稱為太空包太空袋那個是袋子所以我講太空袋太空包防護包你們都聽得懂啦都是一樣的東西不一樣防護包是給個人的好那就是那個叫什麼太空\n440216\t460045\t太空包裝的是那個裝你們去裝那些拆下來的拆下來的石棉瓦拆下來的石棉瓦是放在放在太空包好那沒有錯那沒有錯好那我剛一開始就沒有講錯啊對啊那你幹嘛生出那麼多名詞來\n462045\t474955\t好 那次長我們再看一下這個N95口罩其實要能夠就是密合才有這個防護的效果嘛那你們去輔導同仁有教導民眾如何佩戴嗎\n478632\t501574\t跟委員報告因為在我們的這個宣導品裡面是有那如果說影片的話我們在網路上指南水官網上也有這個配戴這個N95口罩的一個示範的影片因為我知道部長也有去示範那請問一下部長鬍子這麼濃密戴N95口罩是戴得老的嗎\n507810\t530503\t基本上那個跟委員報告N95我們買的是那個3M的基本上這個佩戴的話它是符合一般人的一個聯型所以部長算一般人嗎我提這個我也是很認真的提出這樣的問題因為很多人他們會有\n532120\t554777\t鬍子嗎 會留鬍子有的是上面八字鬍 有的是下面烙塞鬍烙塞鬍應該是面積更大吧那你們遇到這樣的狀況的時候在宣導上是不是也要做一些特別的處理因為我的疑問是這樣到底戴不戴得牢 如果沒有問題你就跟我說沒有問題就好了\n556656\t572865\t是 它這個跟尾巴它是有一個後面有一個豎影帶基本上戴上去的話我們測試來講就是你在呼吸的時候不要吸到外面的空氣從旁邊進來基本上它就是比較一般性的測試啦對 所以有鬍子是有幫助的\n573405\t595692\t因為空間 空氣可能會比較多但是因為我們接下來我們今天在討論失眠啦所以我現在提出這個問題是很嚴肅的問題嘛那畢竟就是說就是說你看處理這個到要處理這個失眠的這些飛機我們都需要用到N95的口罩了啊所以戴的勞是很要戴勞是很重要的\n596212\t621186\t那如果說真的有隔離到失眠失眠纖維它就會吸附在口罩的這個罩體上所以民眾取下來的時候會不會沾在手上然後再間接進入人體有沒有這樣的可能性跟委員報告失眠的危害主要是吸入所以這個口罩如果他當天使用完的話我們是建議要拋棄\n625017\t644721\t如果手上有接觸到的話那現在的宣導的我們的衛教裡面也是希望要洗手把他洗乾淨因為我現在講的每個環節其實都有可能民眾都會吸入這些纖維所以我提到的我也希望你們能夠針對我的問題來做實質的回答\n647682\t665779\t那你們應該有提供這個食物上有用的資訊例如說身體皮膚衣服上也有可能都有食棉纖維那當地呢又停水停電洗澡是不方便的如何有效的解決這個食棉暴露的問題我們應該要更專業才是\n669022\t694195\t那這邊我們來看一張這張圖在失眠放大之後失眠瓦放大之後它就是無數根的這個鋼針看起來很恐怖那這些失眠纖維被吸入我們這個人體之後這些鋼針就會刺入肺泡然後造成慢性發炎潛伏期大概15年到35年左右\n694855\t707130\t但通常等到確診的時候差不多都是晚期必死無疑了那你再看一下這張照片我們看一下這個勞動部的人全副武裝\n708274\t735585\t但是呢 中間的民眾毫無防護那你們不是要去做宣導嗎那這種場景是很奇怪的啊好 到底說這樣子的這個輔導防護你們覺得有達到效果嗎你們就請給別人看 別人等到死那沒關係這個我們再來看接下來這張照片\n737242\t761755\t石棉瓦堆積的場地有人戴口罩有人沒有戴底下還有一支大鐵錘表示就是說這是破碎用的工具嘛那難道不是應該就是說要拉起這個封鎖線嗎要稍微隔離一下也都沒有啊然後呢我另外我再講一下剛剛講那個太空包\n762850\t776996\t太空包我認為根本就不適合拿來裝這些石棉瓦的廢棄物因為體積的關係你的太空包就這麼大而已然後你必須要先集穗\n778317\t798985\t好 然後去毀損這些石棉瓦讓它變小一點之後然後就 然後再放進去嘛那這個積碎這個過程你就會造成這個石棉瓦纖維就會易散啊好 所以這個是你們要未來要去檢討思考的每個人都在那邊敲敲打打這個是 這反而是很不好的\n800205\t822411\t那我想這樣子的這個作業環境除了就是說勞工很危險之外呢附近的人也會遭受到暴露嘛特別是我要講的是你們安研所的人都是專門在負責這些勞工安全衛生的這個研究跟宣導嘛那還有包括你們那個勞動部這個重建中心的這些同仁\n823371\t845109\t難道這些都沒有具備這些常識嗎好這些防護的這些常識應該都是他們要最清楚比其他人更清楚才是啊結果是做這樣子的示範那我還想問一下就是說你們勞動部的安嚴所有沒有去做失眠濃度的檢測有沒有\n848021\t868184\t有做嗎目前是跟那個我們內部已經跟研究所談好了就是外界在關心說這一次的一個在這個現場的一個暴露情形所以我們研究所是準備開始要進行的所以現在才準備開始進行前面那個敲敲打打的去搜的那個都來不及了\n872347\t893240\t8月6號我們自己的勞檢機構也有派員到現場沒關係反正你們已經啟動不管來不來得及總是比沒有好那這次的這個實面暴露高風險的事件有這個專業SENS的單位他們一定會去做研究然後把相關作業的勞工名單清澈都建立起來\n893740\t907113\t就是說萬一將來有人得到這個肩皮細胞癌的時候才可以得到應有的補償你才有的追蹤嘛所以我想要請教一下就是說我們剛剛看了幾張照片這些人有沒有造冊\n910874\t935277\t各位報告我們現在跟那個微服部也討論過了如果是涉及到這個營造業者業者的話他名單未來我們會送給我們我們會到我們的勞保局那邊去追蹤我講的不是這些營造業者是這些穿制服不是你們的人嗎看前面幾張照片這些穿那個背心的啊\n936980\t943918\t那是我們的輔導員他們有沒有有名車我們也有好就要好好的追蹤好\n946202\t968264\t我們再看簡報6的部分右邊是環境部棚部長在風災後他們受損的石棉瓦的暫時放置為了避免石棉瓦的纖維易散所以他們用帆布先整個蓋起來專業程度就立判高下\n969545\t997511\t他們就沒有用那個太空包啦所以在這張照片比較起來這個環境部就是勝這看起來比較專業那我想這一次你們這一次就是說我的形容叫做我不認為這個叫做有以身作則啦反正你們這次去做輔導那除了好像比較偏重在這個失眠以外像其他的\n998331\t1010140\t跌倒 踩踏 切割 穿刺 滑倒 高架作業墜落都沒有看到這個災後防護我想請教一下次長你們有沒有統計這一次的這個服務及輔導的成效\n1012282\t1036861\t報委員謝謝委員苦民所苦有關於實免法這部分環境部第一時間在台南跟嘉義都設置了堆置場但是相應的拆除的工作在一開始的現場因為有大概3萬棟左右的房屋屋頂先受損所以大家剛開始的時候是蓋房部然後下面的實免會有一些問題所以勞動部紅部長第一時間就要求\n1037641\t1056048\t指安署的副署長下去前進指揮所然後設四個服務站相關的輔導團先備制了一些物資讓大家緊急的用但是實際上真的實棉拆除是一個專業的工作那這部分未來應該目前我們跟環保署大家在處理當中應該有專業的\n1057989\t1081854\t業者來做處理那相關的從業人員中間有接觸到這一些實名軌跡的我們都會把它造冊來追蹤相應的一些後續的注意那至於說其他的部分當然主要會是在剛開始的時候疫情期間是在最早的時候爬上爬下屋頂會不會有一些墜落的問題所以後來相關的屋頂的\n1082734\t1103932\t相應的處理從業中心是請國內的相關營造業者以一環計及的方式用公辦的方式去做相應的協助那在相關的處理當做過程裡面包括鷹架的搭設各方面都會都有跟相關的從業人員做一些說明和處理那至於剛才我們所講的數據的部分我們會後再來做統整\n1105489\t1126367\t好那就是你們那個成果數據再麻煩給我們辦公室那另外就是說我快速再問一下我也我覺得蠻疑惑就是說那難道就是說只有這個台南有防護站然後雲林嘉義跟高雄他們都沒有是不是是沒有防護的必要\n1128369\t1154609\t這邊因為實棉是早期的產品那洪部長在有指示研究所的唯平主要去做實棉濃度的處理這是第一件事那第二個部分就是說不好意思那個災後防護不會只有實棉我前面講實棉我後面已經開始講到那個啦跌倒踩踏點點點等等的那個很多很多\n1156546\t1171659\t這種華島高架作業墜落的這種災後防護了這邊我們在相應的措施上會再來注意所以現在目前雲林嘉義高雄都沒有嗎都有 我們有些是透過你們有去台東嗎台東啊 台東有去嗎\n1178922\t1203252\t就沒有嗎我才去一個像學校棒球場牛棚屋頂整個吹破那個到時候也是會有可能可能那種就是高價墜落這種作業的問題也是會有啊我是提醒你們稍微注意評估一下啦那這樣來說如果再有類似的風災勞動部會比照這一次就說再去現場提供這個災後防護的輔導嗎未來都會吧\n1206138\t1227518\t好那那個就是說因為以前是沒有看過你們有這樣的服務雖然是說災後過了一段好一段時間才去但是就是說還是要給你們肯定啦但我希望這個未來期程可能要就是說要加速要加速那最後我再提醒勞動部就是說我們要去輔導民眾除了說專業要足夠\n1230919\t1240715\t我覺得跟在地災民這個感同身受設身處地的去服務這個也是要很注意那不是說我們穿著背心就代表專業\n1242582\t1267929\t要用心認真相信民眾就會有感那提供服務的人員一定要有訓練同時還要有專業才可以提供更好的服務不要說只是說只是去送東西然後沒有考慮說民眾會不會用到可以用多久我想這樣的服務很快就不會受到就會人家會起反感啦所以我想這些細節我在這邊提醒要請你們要重視\n1269114\t1277860\t好 謝謝委員有關於相關的細節的部分我們會把它Reit得更清楚謝謝我們的指點我們將來在相關的部分再把它做得更完整一點好 謝謝好 謝謝\n","txt":"請陳英文發言稍微就這樣走了嗎\n謝謝主席我先會議詢問一下您可以先請坐是這樣我們最近其實立法院加檢都有一些同仁做聽力測驗的時候其實耳朵聽力有些受損\n那聽力受損呢其實並不是說對於這個聲音大小聲聽不見倒不是這樣而是對於這種高頻或低頻好特定這些頻率的這個聲音會聽不清楚聽得到聲音但聽不清楚那當然這個長期有跟在處於這種噪音或者是那種就很大聲的這種環境是有關係的\n那所以我要在這邊也替大家爭取一下我們這個健康的權益因為畢竟我們未還掌管這個監督勞動部衛福部跟環境部那重點是這個勞工申請職災如果真的說因為工作環境的關係聽力受損那鑑定之後我們還可以申請職災但是大部分現場是公務人員還有我們這種公職人員是沒有這種待遇的\n那因為我們雖然立法院總務處幫我們設了那個分貝的那個測試的那個東西但是我覺得我也不是很確定說這個這個角度我們在執行是不是我們會看那邊還是看哪邊但是那個數字他就算超標了也不會逼也不會叫所以講話的人就不會有就不會控制那我要提的是\n在人在70分貝就長期大概10分鐘連續處於這個70分貝以上的這個你會覺得心情很煩躁常常心情煩躁可能這個未來憂鬱症躁鬱症點點點可能都會跑出來再來還有些立委真的聲音很大常常超過80分貝那這個真的就是對聽力會直接造成損害所以這個部分\n你們我不是開玩笑我真的建議大家年紀也有了做聽力測驗特別這個音頻高頻低頻到底聽不聽得到大家真的要去檢查一下那這個部分我想身為身為這個未還委員會的委員我們沒有辦法去要求就是說那個委員的音量\n在每一次質詢都要控制在這個70分貝以下但是我們有因控啊因控在外面你坐在那邊你看得到那個分貝的數字嗎你如果看不到那我們可能也是要跟總務講一下看看要怎麼樣讓你隨時掌控這個數字因為你們坐在這邊是整天連續幾個小時耶我這樣講沒有道理\n對啊 在座各位都是公務人員你們是不能申請這種職災的賠償喔我先把醜話講在前頭我剛剛查了一下法規那個意外死亡有\n所以這個部分我想起碼這是未還委員會我們應該要以身作則第一個這個側分貝的東西看這個位置是不是能夠讓大家很清楚特別是在講話的人那最好超標的時候他會逼\n會叫提醒說一定要小聲一點因為除了很大聲以外講話時間也不會控制啊還要看心情你管了一下搞不好又吵起來會更大聲更久所以我想我真的觀察很久也忍耐很久了我覺得為了大家聽力的健康請我們\n衛環委員會以身作則那當擔任主席 擔任召委的人也可以對於這個我們質詢的環境這個噪音 音量可以有所掌控我想做這樣沉痛的呼籲跟建議好 謝謝主席你有要回應一下嗎\n謝謝陳燕委員剛剛的引重心長給大家的提示因為剛好我們趙委不在我會把您的意見充分的反映給他做參考跟次長一樣主席可以做才是\n不過剛剛建議到說如果他的音量或者是CO2的濃度超到一定的標準而且是損害到健康的話我們可以洽請秘書處可以反映說是不是有其他的機制可以讓現場的人知道我們所處的環境裡面應該要多住哪一些我想主席跟我就在這裡具體建議了我們這個部分一定要來做改善跟控管\n好那謝謝那主席我要麻煩請這個我們勞動部次長請陳次長委員好\n市長好 在這次丹納市颱風造成南部地區發生嚴重的災情很多的台南沿海地區的鄉親們屋頂都被吹走了其實看了也是讓人覺得很揪心很同情我知道說你們勞動部也成立了四個災後防護服務站\n以及這個宣導團那部長在7月26號的時候也有去現場去關心也制正了一些宣導品那本席也給予這個勞動部的同仁予以肯定但是呢在這個災後防護它不是兒戲我們要用很嚴肅的這個態度來面對它一年疫情都會受到我們這個\n全國同胞的這個嚴格檢定然後特別是災區的這個鄉親們那我想要先請教一下次長這次的這個防護你們好像比較偏重在這個失眠粉塵的這個部分那除了N95口罩以外你們還有提供什麼防護物資嗎\n跟委員報告 除了那個N95口罩 我們還有護目鏡還有防護手套 還有防護衣你們還有一個 太空包你們還提供了太空包我們是裝在防護包裡面\n所以你不叫太空包那個叫防護包是嗎那個是裝實名的是太空袋我們俗稱為太空包太空袋那個是袋子所以我講太空袋太空包防護包你們都聽得懂啦都是一樣的東西不一樣防護包是給個人的好那就是那個叫什麼太空\n太空包裝的是那個裝你們去裝那些拆下來的拆下來的石棉瓦拆下來的石棉瓦是放在放在太空包好那沒有錯那沒有錯好那我剛一開始就沒有講錯啊對啊那你幹嘛生出那麼多名詞來\n好 那次長我們再看一下這個N95口罩其實要能夠就是密合才有這個防護的效果嘛那你們去輔導同仁有教導民眾如何佩戴嗎\n跟委員報告因為在我們的這個宣導品裡面是有那如果說影片的話我們在網路上指南水官網上也有這個配戴這個N95口罩的一個示範的影片因為我知道部長也有去示範那請問一下部長鬍子這麼濃密戴N95口罩是戴得老的嗎\n基本上那個跟委員報告N95我們買的是那個3M的基本上這個佩戴的話它是符合一般人的一個聯型所以部長算一般人嗎我提這個我也是很認真的提出這樣的問題因為很多人他們會有\n鬍子嗎 會留鬍子有的是上面八字鬍 有的是下面烙塞鬍烙塞鬍應該是面積更大吧那你們遇到這樣的狀況的時候在宣導上是不是也要做一些特別的處理因為我的疑問是這樣到底戴不戴得牢 如果沒有問題你就跟我說沒有問題就好了\n是 它這個跟尾巴它是有一個後面有一個豎影帶基本上戴上去的話我們測試來講就是你在呼吸的時候不要吸到外面的空氣從旁邊進來基本上它就是比較一般性的測試啦對 所以有鬍子是有幫助的\n因為空間 空氣可能會比較多但是因為我們接下來我們今天在討論失眠啦所以我現在提出這個問題是很嚴肅的問題嘛那畢竟就是說就是說你看處理這個到要處理這個失眠的這些飛機我們都需要用到N95的口罩了啊所以戴的勞是很要戴勞是很重要的\n那如果說真的有隔離到失眠失眠纖維它就會吸附在口罩的這個罩體上所以民眾取下來的時候會不會沾在手上然後再間接進入人體有沒有這樣的可能性跟委員報告失眠的危害主要是吸入所以這個口罩如果他當天使用完的話我們是建議要拋棄\n如果手上有接觸到的話那現在的宣導的我們的衛教裡面也是希望要洗手把他洗乾淨因為我現在講的每個環節其實都有可能民眾都會吸入這些纖維所以我提到的我也希望你們能夠針對我的問題來做實質的回答\n那你們應該有提供這個食物上有用的資訊例如說身體皮膚衣服上也有可能都有食棉纖維那當地呢又停水停電洗澡是不方便的如何有效的解決這個食棉暴露的問題我們應該要更專業才是\n那這邊我們來看一張這張圖在失眠放大之後失眠瓦放大之後它就是無數根的這個鋼針看起來很恐怖那這些失眠纖維被吸入我們這個人體之後這些鋼針就會刺入肺泡然後造成慢性發炎潛伏期大概15年到35年左右\n但通常等到確診的時候差不多都是晚期必死無疑了那你再看一下這張照片我們看一下這個勞動部的人全副武裝\n但是呢 中間的民眾毫無防護那你們不是要去做宣導嗎那這種場景是很奇怪的啊好 到底說這樣子的這個輔導防護你們覺得有達到效果嗎你們就請給別人看 別人等到死那沒關係這個我們再來看接下來這張照片\n石棉瓦堆積的場地有人戴口罩有人沒有戴底下還有一支大鐵錘表示就是說這是破碎用的工具嘛那難道不是應該就是說要拉起這個封鎖線嗎要稍微隔離一下也都沒有啊然後呢我另外我再講一下剛剛講那個太空包\n太空包我認為根本就不適合拿來裝這些石棉瓦的廢棄物因為體積的關係你的太空包就這麼大而已然後你必須要先集穗\n好 然後去毀損這些石棉瓦讓它變小一點之後然後就 然後再放進去嘛那這個積碎這個過程你就會造成這個石棉瓦纖維就會易散啊好 所以這個是你們要未來要去檢討思考的每個人都在那邊敲敲打打這個是 這反而是很不好的\n那我想這樣子的這個作業環境除了就是說勞工很危險之外呢附近的人也會遭受到暴露嘛特別是我要講的是你們安研所的人都是專門在負責這些勞工安全衛生的這個研究跟宣導嘛那還有包括你們那個勞動部這個重建中心的這些同仁\n難道這些都沒有具備這些常識嗎好這些防護的這些常識應該都是他們要最清楚比其他人更清楚才是啊結果是做這樣子的示範那我還想問一下就是說你們勞動部的安嚴所有沒有去做失眠濃度的檢測有沒有\n有做嗎目前是跟那個我們內部已經跟研究所談好了就是外界在關心說這一次的一個在這個現場的一個暴露情形所以我們研究所是準備開始要進行的所以現在才準備開始進行前面那個敲敲打打的去搜的那個都來不及了\n8月6號我們自己的勞檢機構也有派員到現場沒關係反正你們已經啟動不管來不來得及總是比沒有好那這次的這個實面暴露高風險的事件有這個專業SENS的單位他們一定會去做研究然後把相關作業的勞工名單清澈都建立起來\n就是說萬一將來有人得到這個肩皮細胞癌的時候才可以得到應有的補償你才有的追蹤嘛所以我想要請教一下就是說我們剛剛看了幾張照片這些人有沒有造冊\n各位報告我們現在跟那個微服部也討論過了如果是涉及到這個營造業者業者的話他名單未來我們會送給我們我們會到我們的勞保局那邊去追蹤我講的不是這些營造業者是這些穿制服不是你們的人嗎看前面幾張照片這些穿那個背心的啊\n那是我們的輔導員他們有沒有有名車我們也有好就要好好的追蹤好\n我們再看簡報6的部分右邊是環境部棚部長在風災後他們受損的石棉瓦的暫時放置為了避免石棉瓦的纖維易散所以他們用帆布先整個蓋起來專業程度就立判高下\n他們就沒有用那個太空包啦所以在這張照片比較起來這個環境部就是勝這看起來比較專業那我想這一次你們這一次就是說我的形容叫做我不認為這個叫做有以身作則啦反正你們這次去做輔導那除了好像比較偏重在這個失眠以外像其他的\n跌倒 踩踏 切割 穿刺 滑倒 高架作業墜落都沒有看到這個災後防護我想請教一下次長你們有沒有統計這一次的這個服務及輔導的成效\n報委員謝謝委員苦民所苦有關於實免法這部分環境部第一時間在台南跟嘉義都設置了堆置場但是相應的拆除的工作在一開始的現場因為有大概3萬棟左右的房屋屋頂先受損所以大家剛開始的時候是蓋房部然後下面的實免會有一些問題所以勞動部紅部長第一時間就要求\n指安署的副署長下去前進指揮所然後設四個服務站相關的輔導團先備制了一些物資讓大家緊急的用但是實際上真的實棉拆除是一個專業的工作那這部分未來應該目前我們跟環保署大家在處理當中應該有專業的\n業者來做處理那相關的從業人員中間有接觸到這一些實名軌跡的我們都會把它造冊來追蹤相應的一些後續的注意那至於說其他的部分當然主要會是在剛開始的時候疫情期間是在最早的時候爬上爬下屋頂會不會有一些墜落的問題所以後來相關的屋頂的\n相應的處理從業中心是請國內的相關營造業者以一環計及的方式用公辦的方式去做相應的協助那在相關的處理當做過程裡面包括鷹架的搭設各方面都會都有跟相關的從業人員做一些說明和處理那至於剛才我們所講的數據的部分我們會後再來做統整\n好那就是你們那個成果數據再麻煩給我們辦公室那另外就是說我快速再問一下我也我覺得蠻疑惑就是說那難道就是說只有這個台南有防護站然後雲林嘉義跟高雄他們都沒有是不是是沒有防護的必要\n這邊因為實棉是早期的產品那洪部長在有指示研究所的唯平主要去做實棉濃度的處理這是第一件事那第二個部分就是說不好意思那個災後防護不會只有實棉我前面講實棉我後面已經開始講到那個啦跌倒踩踏點點點等等的那個很多很多\n這種華島高架作業墜落的這種災後防護了這邊我們在相應的措施上會再來注意所以現在目前雲林嘉義高雄都沒有嗎都有 我們有些是透過你們有去台東嗎台東啊 台東有去嗎\n就沒有嗎我才去一個像學校棒球場牛棚屋頂整個吹破那個到時候也是會有可能可能那種就是高價墜落這種作業的問題也是會有啊我是提醒你們稍微注意評估一下啦那這樣來說如果再有類似的風災勞動部會比照這一次就說再去現場提供這個災後防護的輔導嗎未來都會吧\n好那那個就是說因為以前是沒有看過你們有這樣的服務雖然是說災後過了一段好一段時間才去但是就是說還是要給你們肯定啦但我希望這個未來期程可能要就是說要加速要加速那最後我再提醒勞動部就是說我們要去輔導民眾除了說專業要足夠\n我覺得跟在地災民這個感同身受設身處地的去服務這個也是要很注意那不是說我們穿著背心就代表專業\n要用心認真相信民眾就會有感那提供服務的人員一定要有訓練同時還要有專業才可以提供更好的服務不要說只是說只是去送東西然後沒有考慮說民眾會不會用到可以用多久我想這樣的服務很快就不會受到就會人家會起反感啦所以我想這些細節我在這邊提醒要請你們要重視\n好 謝謝委員有關於相關的細節的部分我們會把它Reit得更清楚謝謝我們的指點我們將來在相關的部分再把它做得更完整一點好 謝謝好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.430 --> 00:12.049\n請陳英文發言稍微就這樣走了嗎\n\n00:17.014 --> 00:32.990\n謝謝主席我先會議詢問一下您可以先請坐是這樣我們最近其實立法院加檢都有一些同仁做聽力測驗的時候其實耳朵聽力有些受損\n\n00:33.931 --> 01:00.577\n那聽力受損呢其實並不是說對於這個聲音大小聲聽不見倒不是這樣而是對於這種高頻或低頻好特定這些頻率的這個聲音會聽不清楚聽得到聲音但聽不清楚那當然這個長期有跟在處於這種噪音或者是那種就很大聲的這種環境是有關係的\n\n01:02.156 --> 01:31.463\n那所以我要在這邊也替大家爭取一下我們這個健康的權益因為畢竟我們未還掌管這個監督勞動部衛福部跟環境部那重點是這個勞工申請職災如果真的說因為工作環境的關係聽力受損那鑑定之後我們還可以申請職災但是大部分現場是公務人員還有我們這種公職人員是沒有這種待遇的\n\n01:32.563 --> 01:59.556\n那因為我們雖然立法院總務處幫我們設了那個分貝的那個測試的那個東西但是我覺得我也不是很確定說這個這個角度我們在執行是不是我們會看那邊還是看哪邊但是那個數字他就算超標了也不會逼也不會叫所以講話的人就不會有就不會控制那我要提的是\n\n02:00.396 --> 02:28.285\n在人在70分貝就長期大概10分鐘連續處於這個70分貝以上的這個你會覺得心情很煩躁常常心情煩躁可能這個未來憂鬱症躁鬱症點點點可能都會跑出來再來還有些立委真的聲音很大常常超過80分貝那這個真的就是對聽力會直接造成損害所以這個部分\n\n02:30.031 --> 02:48.401\n你們我不是開玩笑我真的建議大家年紀也有了做聽力測驗特別這個音頻高頻低頻到底聽不聽得到大家真的要去檢查一下那這個部分我想身為身為這個未還委員會的委員我們沒有辦法去要求就是說那個委員的音量\n\n02:49.625 --> 03:12.936\n在每一次質詢都要控制在這個70分貝以下但是我們有因控啊因控在外面你坐在那邊你看得到那個分貝的數字嗎你如果看不到那我們可能也是要跟總務講一下看看要怎麼樣讓你隨時掌控這個數字因為你們坐在這邊是整天連續幾個小時耶我這樣講沒有道理\n\n03:14.642 --> 03:24.861\n對啊在座各位都是公務人員你們是不能申請這種職災的賠償喔我先把醜話講在前頭我剛剛查了一下法規那個意外死亡有\n\n03:28.086 --> 03:46.918\n所以這個部分我想起碼這是未還委員會我們應該要以身作則第一個這個側分貝的東西看這個位置是不是能夠讓大家很清楚特別是在講話的人那最好超標的時候他會逼\n\n03:48.099 --> 04:07.384\n會叫提醒說一定要小聲一點因為除了很大聲以外講話時間也不會控制啊還要看心情你管了一下搞不好又吵起來會更大聲更久所以我想我真的觀察很久也忍耐很久了我覺得為了大家聽力的健康請我們\n\n04:08.605 --> 04:28.038\n衛環委員會以身作則那當擔任主席擔任召委的人也可以對於這個我們質詢的環境這個噪音音量可以有所掌控我想做這樣沉痛的呼籲跟建議好謝謝主席你有要回應一下嗎\n\n04:32.075 --> 04:45.793\n謝謝陳燕委員剛剛的引重心長給大家的提示因為剛好我們趙委不在我會把您的意見充分的反映給他做參考跟次長一樣主席可以做才是\n\n04:47.895 --> 05:13.715\n不過剛剛建議到說如果他的音量或者是CO2的濃度超到一定的標準而且是損害到健康的話我們可以洽請秘書處可以反映說是不是有其他的機制可以讓現場的人知道我們所處的環境裡面應該要多住哪一些我想主席跟我就在這裡具體建議了我們這個部分一定要來做改善跟控管\n\n05:14.415 --> 05:16.781\n好那謝謝那主席我要麻煩請這個我們勞動部次長請陳次長委員好\n\n05:24.358 --> 05:49.210\n市長好在這次丹納市颱風造成南部地區發生嚴重的災情很多的台南沿海地區的鄉親們屋頂都被吹走了其實看了也是讓人覺得很揪心很同情我知道說你們勞動部也成立了四個災後防護服務站\n\n05:50.100 --> 06:14.517\n以及這個宣導團那部長在7月26號的時候也有去現場去關心也制正了一些宣導品那本席也給予這個勞動部的同仁予以肯定但是呢在這個災後防護它不是兒戲我們要用很嚴肅的這個態度來面對它一年疫情都會受到我們這個\n\n06:16.438 --> 06:34.719\n全國同胞的這個嚴格檢定然後特別是災區的這個鄉親們那我想要先請教一下次長這次的這個防護你們好像比較偏重在這個失眠粉塵的這個部分那除了N95口罩以外你們還有提供什麼防護物資嗎\n\n06:39.710 --> 06:55.476\n跟委員報告除了那個N95口罩我們還有護目鏡還有防護手套還有防護衣你們還有一個太空包你們還提供了太空包我們是裝在防護包裡面\n\n06:58.007 --> 07:18.645\n所以你不叫太空包那個叫防護包是嗎那個是裝實名的是太空袋我們俗稱為太空包太空袋那個是袋子所以我講太空袋太空包防護包你們都聽得懂啦都是一樣的東西不一樣防護包是給個人的好那就是那個叫什麼太空\n\n07:20.216 --> 07:40.045\n太空包裝的是那個裝你們去裝那些拆下來的拆下來的石棉瓦拆下來的石棉瓦是放在放在太空包好那沒有錯那沒有錯好那我剛一開始就沒有講錯啊對啊那你幹嘛生出那麼多名詞來\n\n07:42.045 --> 07:54.955\n好那次長我們再看一下這個N95口罩其實要能夠就是密合才有這個防護的效果嘛那你們去輔導同仁有教導民眾如何佩戴嗎\n\n07:58.632 --> 08:21.574\n跟委員報告因為在我們的這個宣導品裡面是有那如果說影片的話我們在網路上指南水官網上也有這個配戴這個N95口罩的一個示範的影片因為我知道部長也有去示範那請問一下部長鬍子這麼濃密戴N95口罩是戴得老的嗎\n\n08:27.810 --> 08:50.503\n基本上那個跟委員報告N95我們買的是那個3M的基本上這個佩戴的話它是符合一般人的一個聯型所以部長算一般人嗎我提這個我也是很認真的提出這樣的問題因為很多人他們會有\n\n08:52.120 --> 09:14.777\n鬍子嗎會留鬍子有的是上面八字鬍有的是下面烙塞鬍烙塞鬍應該是面積更大吧那你們遇到這樣的狀況的時候在宣導上是不是也要做一些特別的處理因為我的疑問是這樣到底戴不戴得牢如果沒有問題你就跟我說沒有問題就好了\n\n09:16.656 --> 09:32.865\n是它這個跟尾巴它是有一個後面有一個豎影帶基本上戴上去的話我們測試來講就是你在呼吸的時候不要吸到外面的空氣從旁邊進來基本上它就是比較一般性的測試啦對所以有鬍子是有幫助的\n\n09:33.405 --> 09:55.692\n因為空間空氣可能會比較多但是因為我們接下來我們今天在討論失眠啦所以我現在提出這個問題是很嚴肅的問題嘛那畢竟就是說就是說你看處理這個到要處理這個失眠的這些飛機我們都需要用到N95的口罩了啊所以戴的勞是很要戴勞是很重要的\n\n09:56.212 --> 10:21.186\n那如果說真的有隔離到失眠失眠纖維它就會吸附在口罩的這個罩體上所以民眾取下來的時候會不會沾在手上然後再間接進入人體有沒有這樣的可能性跟委員報告失眠的危害主要是吸入所以這個口罩如果他當天使用完的話我們是建議要拋棄\n\n10:25.017 --> 10:44.721\n如果手上有接觸到的話那現在的宣導的我們的衛教裡面也是希望要洗手把他洗乾淨因為我現在講的每個環節其實都有可能民眾都會吸入這些纖維所以我提到的我也希望你們能夠針對我的問題來做實質的回答\n\n10:47.682 --> 11:05.779\n那你們應該有提供這個食物上有用的資訊例如說身體皮膚衣服上也有可能都有食棉纖維那當地呢又停水停電洗澡是不方便的如何有效的解決這個食棉暴露的問題我們應該要更專業才是\n\n11:09.022 --> 11:34.195\n那這邊我們來看一張這張圖在失眠放大之後失眠瓦放大之後它就是無數根的這個鋼針看起來很恐怖那這些失眠纖維被吸入我們這個人體之後這些鋼針就會刺入肺泡然後造成慢性發炎潛伏期大概15年到35年左右\n\n11:34.855 --> 11:47.130\n但通常等到確診的時候差不多都是晚期必死無疑了那你再看一下這張照片我們看一下這個勞動部的人全副武裝\n\n11:48.274 --> 12:15.585\n但是呢中間的民眾毫無防護那你們不是要去做宣導嗎那這種場景是很奇怪的啊好到底說這樣子的這個輔導防護你們覺得有達到效果嗎你們就請給別人看別人等到死那沒關係這個我們再來看接下來這張照片\n\n12:17.242 --> 12:41.755\n石棉瓦堆積的場地有人戴口罩有人沒有戴底下還有一支大鐵錘表示就是說這是破碎用的工具嘛那難道不是應該就是說要拉起這個封鎖線嗎要稍微隔離一下也都沒有啊然後呢我另外我再講一下剛剛講那個太空包\n\n12:42.850 --> 12:56.996\n太空包我認為根本就不適合拿來裝這些石棉瓦的廢棄物因為體積的關係你的太空包就這麼大而已然後你必須要先集穗\n\n12:58.317 --> 13:18.985\n好然後去毀損這些石棉瓦讓它變小一點之後然後就然後再放進去嘛那這個積碎這個過程你就會造成這個石棉瓦纖維就會易散啊好所以這個是你們要未來要去檢討思考的每個人都在那邊敲敲打打這個是這反而是很不好的\n\n13:20.205 --> 13:42.411\n那我想這樣子的這個作業環境除了就是說勞工很危險之外呢附近的人也會遭受到暴露嘛特別是我要講的是你們安研所的人都是專門在負責這些勞工安全衛生的這個研究跟宣導嘛那還有包括你們那個勞動部這個重建中心的這些同仁\n\n13:43.371 --> 14:05.109\n難道這些都沒有具備這些常識嗎好這些防護的這些常識應該都是他們要最清楚比其他人更清楚才是啊結果是做這樣子的示範那我還想問一下就是說你們勞動部的安嚴所有沒有去做失眠濃度的檢測有沒有\n\n14:08.021 --> 14:28.184\n有做嗎目前是跟那個我們內部已經跟研究所談好了就是外界在關心說這一次的一個在這個現場的一個暴露情形所以我們研究所是準備開始要進行的所以現在才準備開始進行前面那個敲敲打打的去搜的那個都來不及了\n\n14:32.347 --> 14:53.240\n8月6號我們自己的勞檢機構也有派員到現場沒關係反正你們已經啟動不管來不來得及總是比沒有好那這次的這個實面暴露高風險的事件有這個專業SENS的單位他們一定會去做研究然後把相關作業的勞工名單清澈都建立起來\n\n14:53.740 --> 15:07.113\n就是說萬一將來有人得到這個肩皮細胞癌的時候才可以得到應有的補償你才有的追蹤嘛所以我想要請教一下就是說我們剛剛看了幾張照片這些人有沒有造冊\n\n15:10.874 --> 15:35.277\n各位報告我們現在跟那個微服部也討論過了如果是涉及到這個營造業者業者的話他名單未來我們會送給我們我們會到我們的勞保局那邊去追蹤我講的不是這些營造業者是這些穿制服不是你們的人嗎看前面幾張照片這些穿那個背心的啊\n\n15:36.980 --> 15:43.918\n那是我們的輔導員他們有沒有有名車我們也有好就要好好的追蹤好\n\n15:46.202 --> 16:08.264\n我們再看簡報6的部分右邊是環境部棚部長在風災後他們受損的石棉瓦的暫時放置為了避免石棉瓦的纖維易散所以他們用帆布先整個蓋起來專業程度就立判高下\n\n16:09.545 --> 16:37.511\n他們就沒有用那個太空包啦所以在這張照片比較起來這個環境部就是勝這看起來比較專業那我想這一次你們這一次就是說我的形容叫做我不認為這個叫做有以身作則啦反正你們這次去做輔導那除了好像比較偏重在這個失眠以外像其他的\n\n16:38.331 --> 16:50.140\n跌倒踩踏切割穿刺滑倒高架作業墜落都沒有看到這個災後防護我想請教一下次長你們有沒有統計這一次的這個服務及輔導的成效\n\n16:52.282 --> 17:16.861\n報委員謝謝委員苦民所苦有關於實免法這部分環境部第一時間在台南跟嘉義都設置了堆置場但是相應的拆除的工作在一開始的現場因為有大概3萬棟左右的房屋屋頂先受損所以大家剛開始的時候是蓋房部然後下面的實免會有一些問題所以勞動部紅部長第一時間就要求\n\n17:17.641 --> 17:36.048\n指安署的副署長下去前進指揮所然後設四個服務站相關的輔導團先備制了一些物資讓大家緊急的用但是實際上真的實棉拆除是一個專業的工作那這部分未來應該目前我們跟環保署大家在處理當中應該有專業的\n\n17:37.989 --> 18:01.854\n業者來做處理那相關的從業人員中間有接觸到這一些實名軌跡的我們都會把它造冊來追蹤相應的一些後續的注意那至於說其他的部分當然主要會是在剛開始的時候疫情期間是在最早的時候爬上爬下屋頂會不會有一些墜落的問題所以後來相關的屋頂的\n\n18:02.734 --> 18:23.932\n相應的處理從業中心是請國內的相關營造業者以一環計及的方式用公辦的方式去做相應的協助那在相關的處理當做過程裡面包括鷹架的搭設各方面都會都有跟相關的從業人員做一些說明和處理那至於剛才我們所講的數據的部分我們會後再來做統整\n\n18:25.489 --> 18:46.367\n好那就是你們那個成果數據再麻煩給我們辦公室那另外就是說我快速再問一下我也我覺得蠻疑惑就是說那難道就是說只有這個台南有防護站然後雲林嘉義跟高雄他們都沒有是不是是沒有防護的必要\n\n18:48.369 --> 19:14.609\n這邊因為實棉是早期的產品那洪部長在有指示研究所的唯平主要去做實棉濃度的處理這是第一件事那第二個部分就是說不好意思那個災後防護不會只有實棉我前面講實棉我後面已經開始講到那個啦跌倒踩踏點點點等等的那個很多很多\n\n19:16.546 --> 19:31.659\n這種華島高架作業墜落的這種災後防護了這邊我們在相應的措施上會再來注意所以現在目前雲林嘉義高雄都沒有嗎都有我們有些是透過你們有去台東嗎台東啊台東有去嗎\n\n19:38.922 --> 20:03.252\n就沒有嗎我才去一個像學校棒球場牛棚屋頂整個吹破那個到時候也是會有可能可能那種就是高價墜落這種作業的問題也是會有啊我是提醒你們稍微注意評估一下啦那這樣來說如果再有類似的風災勞動部會比照這一次就說再去現場提供這個災後防護的輔導嗎未來都會吧\n\n20:06.138 --> 20:27.518\n好那那個就是說因為以前是沒有看過你們有這樣的服務雖然是說災後過了一段好一段時間才去但是就是說還是要給你們肯定啦但我希望這個未來期程可能要就是說要加速要加速那最後我再提醒勞動部就是說我們要去輔導民眾除了說專業要足夠\n\n20:30.919 --> 20:40.715\n我覺得跟在地災民這個感同身受設身處地的去服務這個也是要很注意那不是說我們穿著背心就代表專業\n\n20:42.582 --> 21:07.929\n要用心認真相信民眾就會有感那提供服務的人員一定要有訓練同時還要有專業才可以提供更好的服務不要說只是說只是去送東西然後沒有考慮說民眾會不會用到可以用多久我想這樣的服務很快就不會受到就會人家會起反感啦所以我想這些細節我在這邊提醒要請你們要重視\n\n21:09.114 --> 21:17.860\n好謝謝委員有關於相關的細節的部分我們會把它Reit得更清楚謝謝我們的指點我們將來在相關的部分再把它做得更完整一點好謝謝好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.43,"end":12.049,"text":"請陳英文發言稍微就這樣走了嗎"},{"start":17.014,"end":32.99,"text":"謝謝主席我先會議詢問一下您可以先請坐是這樣我們最近其實立法院加檢都有一些同仁做聽力測驗的時候其實耳朵聽力有些受損"},{"start":33.931,"end":60.577,"text":"那聽力受損呢其實並不是說對於這個聲音大小聲聽不見倒不是這樣而是對於這種高頻或低頻好特定這些頻率的這個聲音會聽不清楚聽得到聲音但聽不清楚那當然這個長期有跟在處於這種噪音或者是那種就很大聲的這種環境是有關係的"},{"start":62.156,"end":91.463,"text":"那所以我要在這邊也替大家爭取一下我們這個健康的權益因為畢竟我們未還掌管這個監督勞動部衛福部跟環境部那重點是這個勞工申請職災如果真的說因為工作環境的關係聽力受損那鑑定之後我們還可以申請職災但是大部分現場是公務人員還有我們這種公職人員是沒有這種待遇的"},{"start":92.563,"end":119.556,"text":"那因為我們雖然立法院總務處幫我們設了那個分貝的那個測試的那個東西但是我覺得我也不是很確定說這個這個角度我們在執行是不是我們會看那邊還是看哪邊但是那個數字他就算超標了也不會逼也不會叫所以講話的人就不會有就不會控制那我要提的是"},{"start":120.396,"end":148.285,"text":"在人在70分貝就長期大概10分鐘連續處於這個70分貝以上的這個你會覺得心情很煩躁常常心情煩躁可能這個未來憂鬱症躁鬱症點點點可能都會跑出來再來還有些立委真的聲音很大常常超過80分貝那這個真的就是對聽力會直接造成損害所以這個部分"},{"start":150.031,"end":168.401,"text":"你們我不是開玩笑我真的建議大家年紀也有了做聽力測驗特別這個音頻高頻低頻到底聽不聽得到大家真的要去檢查一下那這個部分我想身為身為這個未還委員會的委員我們沒有辦法去要求就是說那個委員的音量"},{"start":169.625,"end":192.936,"text":"在每一次質詢都要控制在這個70分貝以下但是我們有因控啊因控在外面你坐在那邊你看得到那個分貝的數字嗎你如果看不到那我們可能也是要跟總務講一下看看要怎麼樣讓你隨時掌控這個數字因為你們坐在這邊是整天連續幾個小時耶我這樣講沒有道理"},{"start":194.642,"end":204.861,"text":"對啊 在座各位都是公務人員你們是不能申請這種職災的賠償喔我先把醜話講在前頭我剛剛查了一下法規那個意外死亡有"},{"start":208.086,"end":226.918,"text":"所以這個部分我想起碼這是未還委員會我們應該要以身作則第一個這個側分貝的東西看這個位置是不是能夠讓大家很清楚特別是在講話的人那最好超標的時候他會逼"},{"start":228.099,"end":247.384,"text":"會叫提醒說一定要小聲一點因為除了很大聲以外講話時間也不會控制啊還要看心情你管了一下搞不好又吵起來會更大聲更久所以我想我真的觀察很久也忍耐很久了我覺得為了大家聽力的健康請我們"},{"start":248.605,"end":268.038,"text":"衛環委員會以身作則那當擔任主席 擔任召委的人也可以對於這個我們質詢的環境這個噪音 音量可以有所掌控我想做這樣沉痛的呼籲跟建議好 謝謝主席你有要回應一下嗎"},{"start":272.075,"end":285.793,"text":"謝謝陳燕委員剛剛的引重心長給大家的提示因為剛好我們趙委不在我會把您的意見充分的反映給他做參考跟次長一樣主席可以做才是"},{"start":287.895,"end":313.715,"text":"不過剛剛建議到說如果他的音量或者是CO2的濃度超到一定的標準而且是損害到健康的話我們可以洽請秘書處可以反映說是不是有其他的機制可以讓現場的人知道我們所處的環境裡面應該要多住哪一些我想主席跟我就在這裡具體建議了我們這個部分一定要來做改善跟控管"},{"start":314.415,"end":316.781,"text":"好那謝謝那主席我要麻煩請這個我們勞動部次長請陳次長委員好"},{"start":324.358,"end":349.21,"text":"市長好 在這次丹納市颱風造成南部地區發生嚴重的災情很多的台南沿海地區的鄉親們屋頂都被吹走了其實看了也是讓人覺得很揪心很同情我知道說你們勞動部也成立了四個災後防護服務站"},{"start":350.1,"end":374.517,"text":"以及這個宣導團那部長在7月26號的時候也有去現場去關心也制正了一些宣導品那本席也給予這個勞動部的同仁予以肯定但是呢在這個災後防護它不是兒戲我們要用很嚴肅的這個態度來面對它一年疫情都會受到我們這個"},{"start":376.438,"end":394.719,"text":"全國同胞的這個嚴格檢定然後特別是災區的這個鄉親們那我想要先請教一下次長這次的這個防護你們好像比較偏重在這個失眠粉塵的這個部分那除了N95口罩以外你們還有提供什麼防護物資嗎"},{"start":399.71,"end":415.476,"text":"跟委員報告 除了那個N95口罩 我們還有護目鏡還有防護手套 還有防護衣你們還有一個 太空包你們還提供了太空包我們是裝在防護包裡面"},{"start":418.007,"end":438.645,"text":"所以你不叫太空包那個叫防護包是嗎那個是裝實名的是太空袋我們俗稱為太空包太空袋那個是袋子所以我講太空袋太空包防護包你們都聽得懂啦都是一樣的東西不一樣防護包是給個人的好那就是那個叫什麼太空"},{"start":440.216,"end":460.045,"text":"太空包裝的是那個裝你們去裝那些拆下來的拆下來的石棉瓦拆下來的石棉瓦是放在放在太空包好那沒有錯那沒有錯好那我剛一開始就沒有講錯啊對啊那你幹嘛生出那麼多名詞來"},{"start":462.045,"end":474.955,"text":"好 那次長我們再看一下這個N95口罩其實要能夠就是密合才有這個防護的效果嘛那你們去輔導同仁有教導民眾如何佩戴嗎"},{"start":478.632,"end":501.574,"text":"跟委員報告因為在我們的這個宣導品裡面是有那如果說影片的話我們在網路上指南水官網上也有這個配戴這個N95口罩的一個示範的影片因為我知道部長也有去示範那請問一下部長鬍子這麼濃密戴N95口罩是戴得老的嗎"},{"start":507.81,"end":530.503,"text":"基本上那個跟委員報告N95我們買的是那個3M的基本上這個佩戴的話它是符合一般人的一個聯型所以部長算一般人嗎我提這個我也是很認真的提出這樣的問題因為很多人他們會有"},{"start":532.12,"end":554.777,"text":"鬍子嗎 會留鬍子有的是上面八字鬍 有的是下面烙塞鬍烙塞鬍應該是面積更大吧那你們遇到這樣的狀況的時候在宣導上是不是也要做一些特別的處理因為我的疑問是這樣到底戴不戴得牢 如果沒有問題你就跟我說沒有問題就好了"},{"start":556.656,"end":572.865,"text":"是 它這個跟尾巴它是有一個後面有一個豎影帶基本上戴上去的話我們測試來講就是你在呼吸的時候不要吸到外面的空氣從旁邊進來基本上它就是比較一般性的測試啦對 所以有鬍子是有幫助的"},{"start":573.405,"end":595.692,"text":"因為空間 空氣可能會比較多但是因為我們接下來我們今天在討論失眠啦所以我現在提出這個問題是很嚴肅的問題嘛那畢竟就是說就是說你看處理這個到要處理這個失眠的這些飛機我們都需要用到N95的口罩了啊所以戴的勞是很要戴勞是很重要的"},{"start":596.212,"end":621.186,"text":"那如果說真的有隔離到失眠失眠纖維它就會吸附在口罩的這個罩體上所以民眾取下來的時候會不會沾在手上然後再間接進入人體有沒有這樣的可能性跟委員報告失眠的危害主要是吸入所以這個口罩如果他當天使用完的話我們是建議要拋棄"},{"start":625.017,"end":644.721,"text":"如果手上有接觸到的話那現在的宣導的我們的衛教裡面也是希望要洗手把他洗乾淨因為我現在講的每個環節其實都有可能民眾都會吸入這些纖維所以我提到的我也希望你們能夠針對我的問題來做實質的回答"},{"start":647.682,"end":665.779,"text":"那你們應該有提供這個食物上有用的資訊例如說身體皮膚衣服上也有可能都有食棉纖維那當地呢又停水停電洗澡是不方便的如何有效的解決這個食棉暴露的問題我們應該要更專業才是"},{"start":669.022,"end":694.195,"text":"那這邊我們來看一張這張圖在失眠放大之後失眠瓦放大之後它就是無數根的這個鋼針看起來很恐怖那這些失眠纖維被吸入我們這個人體之後這些鋼針就會刺入肺泡然後造成慢性發炎潛伏期大概15年到35年左右"},{"start":694.855,"end":707.13,"text":"但通常等到確診的時候差不多都是晚期必死無疑了那你再看一下這張照片我們看一下這個勞動部的人全副武裝"},{"start":708.274,"end":735.585,"text":"但是呢 中間的民眾毫無防護那你們不是要去做宣導嗎那這種場景是很奇怪的啊好 到底說這樣子的這個輔導防護你們覺得有達到效果嗎你們就請給別人看 別人等到死那沒關係這個我們再來看接下來這張照片"},{"start":737.242,"end":761.755,"text":"石棉瓦堆積的場地有人戴口罩有人沒有戴底下還有一支大鐵錘表示就是說這是破碎用的工具嘛那難道不是應該就是說要拉起這個封鎖線嗎要稍微隔離一下也都沒有啊然後呢我另外我再講一下剛剛講那個太空包"},{"start":762.85,"end":776.996,"text":"太空包我認為根本就不適合拿來裝這些石棉瓦的廢棄物因為體積的關係你的太空包就這麼大而已然後你必須要先集穗"},{"start":778.317,"end":798.985,"text":"好 然後去毀損這些石棉瓦讓它變小一點之後然後就 然後再放進去嘛那這個積碎這個過程你就會造成這個石棉瓦纖維就會易散啊好 所以這個是你們要未來要去檢討思考的每個人都在那邊敲敲打打這個是 這反而是很不好的"},{"start":800.205,"end":822.411,"text":"那我想這樣子的這個作業環境除了就是說勞工很危險之外呢附近的人也會遭受到暴露嘛特別是我要講的是你們安研所的人都是專門在負責這些勞工安全衛生的這個研究跟宣導嘛那還有包括你們那個勞動部這個重建中心的這些同仁"},{"start":823.371,"end":845.109,"text":"難道這些都沒有具備這些常識嗎好這些防護的這些常識應該都是他們要最清楚比其他人更清楚才是啊結果是做這樣子的示範那我還想問一下就是說你們勞動部的安嚴所有沒有去做失眠濃度的檢測有沒有"},{"start":848.021,"end":868.184,"text":"有做嗎目前是跟那個我們內部已經跟研究所談好了就是外界在關心說這一次的一個在這個現場的一個暴露情形所以我們研究所是準備開始要進行的所以現在才準備開始進行前面那個敲敲打打的去搜的那個都來不及了"},{"start":872.347,"end":893.24,"text":"8月6號我們自己的勞檢機構也有派員到現場沒關係反正你們已經啟動不管來不來得及總是比沒有好那這次的這個實面暴露高風險的事件有這個專業SENS的單位他們一定會去做研究然後把相關作業的勞工名單清澈都建立起來"},{"start":893.74,"end":907.113,"text":"就是說萬一將來有人得到這個肩皮細胞癌的時候才可以得到應有的補償你才有的追蹤嘛所以我想要請教一下就是說我們剛剛看了幾張照片這些人有沒有造冊"},{"start":910.874,"end":935.277,"text":"各位報告我們現在跟那個微服部也討論過了如果是涉及到這個營造業者業者的話他名單未來我們會送給我們我們會到我們的勞保局那邊去追蹤我講的不是這些營造業者是這些穿制服不是你們的人嗎看前面幾張照片這些穿那個背心的啊"},{"start":936.98,"end":943.918,"text":"那是我們的輔導員他們有沒有有名車我們也有好就要好好的追蹤好"},{"start":946.202,"end":968.264,"text":"我們再看簡報6的部分右邊是環境部棚部長在風災後他們受損的石棉瓦的暫時放置為了避免石棉瓦的纖維易散所以他們用帆布先整個蓋起來專業程度就立判高下"},{"start":969.545,"end":997.511,"text":"他們就沒有用那個太空包啦所以在這張照片比較起來這個環境部就是勝這看起來比較專業那我想這一次你們這一次就是說我的形容叫做我不認為這個叫做有以身作則啦反正你們這次去做輔導那除了好像比較偏重在這個失眠以外像其他的"},{"start":998.331,"end":1010.14,"text":"跌倒 踩踏 切割 穿刺 滑倒 高架作業墜落都沒有看到這個災後防護我想請教一下次長你們有沒有統計這一次的這個服務及輔導的成效"},{"start":1012.282,"end":1036.861,"text":"報委員謝謝委員苦民所苦有關於實免法這部分環境部第一時間在台南跟嘉義都設置了堆置場但是相應的拆除的工作在一開始的現場因為有大概3萬棟左右的房屋屋頂先受損所以大家剛開始的時候是蓋房部然後下面的實免會有一些問題所以勞動部紅部長第一時間就要求"},{"start":1037.641,"end":1056.048,"text":"指安署的副署長下去前進指揮所然後設四個服務站相關的輔導團先備制了一些物資讓大家緊急的用但是實際上真的實棉拆除是一個專業的工作那這部分未來應該目前我們跟環保署大家在處理當中應該有專業的"},{"start":1057.989,"end":1081.854,"text":"業者來做處理那相關的從業人員中間有接觸到這一些實名軌跡的我們都會把它造冊來追蹤相應的一些後續的注意那至於說其他的部分當然主要會是在剛開始的時候疫情期間是在最早的時候爬上爬下屋頂會不會有一些墜落的問題所以後來相關的屋頂的"},{"start":1082.734,"end":1103.932,"text":"相應的處理從業中心是請國內的相關營造業者以一環計及的方式用公辦的方式去做相應的協助那在相關的處理當做過程裡面包括鷹架的搭設各方面都會都有跟相關的從業人員做一些說明和處理那至於剛才我們所講的數據的部分我們會後再來做統整"},{"start":1105.489,"end":1126.367,"text":"好那就是你們那個成果數據再麻煩給我們辦公室那另外就是說我快速再問一下我也我覺得蠻疑惑就是說那難道就是說只有這個台南有防護站然後雲林嘉義跟高雄他們都沒有是不是是沒有防護的必要"},{"start":1128.369,"end":1154.609,"text":"這邊因為實棉是早期的產品那洪部長在有指示研究所的唯平主要去做實棉濃度的處理這是第一件事那第二個部分就是說不好意思那個災後防護不會只有實棉我前面講實棉我後面已經開始講到那個啦跌倒踩踏點點點等等的那個很多很多"},{"start":1156.546,"end":1171.659,"text":"這種華島高架作業墜落的這種災後防護了這邊我們在相應的措施上會再來注意所以現在目前雲林嘉義高雄都沒有嗎都有 我們有些是透過你們有去台東嗎台東啊 台東有去嗎"},{"start":1178.922,"end":1203.252,"text":"就沒有嗎我才去一個像學校棒球場牛棚屋頂整個吹破那個到時候也是會有可能可能那種就是高價墜落這種作業的問題也是會有啊我是提醒你們稍微注意評估一下啦那這樣來說如果再有類似的風災勞動部會比照這一次就說再去現場提供這個災後防護的輔導嗎未來都會吧"},{"start":1206.138,"end":1227.518,"text":"好那那個就是說因為以前是沒有看過你們有這樣的服務雖然是說災後過了一段好一段時間才去但是就是說還是要給你們肯定啦但我希望這個未來期程可能要就是說要加速要加速那最後我再提醒勞動部就是說我們要去輔導民眾除了說專業要足夠"},{"start":1230.919,"end":1240.715,"text":"我覺得跟在地災民這個感同身受設身處地的去服務這個也是要很注意那不是說我們穿著背心就代表專業"},{"start":1242.582,"end":1267.929,"text":"要用心認真相信民眾就會有感那提供服務的人員一定要有訓練同時還要有專業才可以提供更好的服務不要說只是說只是去送東西然後沒有考慮說民眾會不會用到可以用多久我想這樣的服務很快就不會受到就會人家會起反感啦所以我想這些細節我在這邊提醒要請你們要重視"},{"start":1269.114,"end":1277.86,"text":"好 謝謝委員有關於相關的細節的部分我們會把它Reit得更清楚謝謝我們的指點我們將來在相關的部分再把它做得更完整一點好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":897,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時18分）謝謝主席，我先會議詢問一下，你可以先請坐。"],["主席：是。"],["陳委員瑩：最近其實立法院加減都有一些同仁做聽力測驗，發現聽力有一些受損，聽力受損並不是在於聲音大小聲聽不見，倒不是這樣，而是對於高頻或低頻等特定頻率的聲音會聽不清楚，是聽得到聲音，但聽不清楚，當然這與長期處於噪音或者很大聲的環境有關係，所以我在這邊要替大家爭取健康的權益，畢竟我們衛環委員會是掌管監督勞動部、衛福部跟環境部，重點是勞工可以申請職災，如果真的是因為工作環境的關係聽力受損，鑑定之後，可以申請職災，但是現場大部分是公務人員，還有我們這種公職人員，我們是沒有這種待遇的。雖然立法院總務處幫我們設了分貝測試儀器，但是我也不是很確定我們在質詢時的這個角度，是不是會看那邊還是看哪邊，而且即使那個數字超標，也不會嗶、不會叫，所以講話的人就不會控制音量。我要說的是，一個人大概10分鐘連續處於70分貝以上的環境，就會覺得心情很煩躁，常常心情煩躁，可能未來憂鬱症、躁鬱症等都會跑出來。再者，有些立委真的聲音很大，常常超過80分貝，這個真的會對聽力直接造成損害，我不是開玩笑，所以我真的建議，大家年紀也有了，要去做聽力測驗，特別是有關音頻高頻、低頻部分，到底聽不聽得到，大家真的要去檢查一下，我想身為衛環委員會委員，我們沒有辦法要求委員在每一次質詢時，音量都要控制在70分貝以下，但是我們有音控，音控坐在那邊，看得到那個分貝的數字嗎？你如果看不到，那我們可能要跟總務處講一下，看要怎麼讓你隨時掌控這個數據，因為你們坐在這邊是一整天連續幾個小時，我這樣講有沒有道理？對啊！在座各位都是公務人員，你們不能申請職災賠償，我先把醜話講在前頭，我剛剛查了一下法規，只有意外死亡有，所以針對這個部分，我想我們是衛環委員會，最起碼應該要以身作則，第一個，這個測分貝儀器的擺放位置，是不是能夠讓大家看的很清楚，特別是在講話的人？最好超標的時候，它會嗶、會叫，提醒一定要小聲一點，因為除了很大聲以外，講話時間也不會控制，還要看心情，你管了一下搞不好又吵起來，會大聲更久。我真的觀察很久，也忍耐很久了，我覺得為了大家聽力的健康，請我們衛環委員會以身作則，擔任主席、擔任召委的人對於我們質詢環境的音量可以有所掌控，我想做這樣沉痛的呼籲跟建議，謝謝。主席，你有要回應一下嗎？"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員剛剛語重心長給大家的提示，但因為剛好召委不在，我會把您的意見充分反映給他參考，那我們……"],["陳委員瑩：跟次長一樣，主席可以裁示。"],["主席：不過剛剛建議如果它的音量或者是CO2的濃度超過一定的標準，而且是損害到健康的話，我們可以洽請秘書處，反映是不是有其他的機制可以讓現場的人知道，我們所處的環境裡面應該要做哪一些處理。"],["陳委員瑩：主席跟我就在這裡具體建議，這個部分一定要改善跟控管，謝謝。","主席，麻煩請勞動部次長。"],["主席：請陳次長。"],["陳次長明仁：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：次長好。這次丹娜絲颱風造成南部地區發生嚴重的災情，很多臺南沿海地區鄉親們的屋頂都被吹走了，其實看了也是讓人家覺得很揪心、很同情。我知道你們勞動部也成立了4個災後防護服務站以及宣導團，部長在7月26號的時候也有去現場關心，也致贈了一些宣導品，本席也給予勞動部的同仁肯定。但是災後防護不是兒戲，我們要用很嚴肅的態度面對它，因為一言一行都會受到全國同胞的嚴格檢定，特別是災區的鄉親們。我想要先請教一下次長，這次的防護你們好像比較偏重在石綿粉塵的部分，除了N95口罩以外，你們還有提供什麼防護物資嗎？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，除了N95口罩，我們還有護目鏡，還有防護手套，還有防護衣。"],["陳委員瑩：你們還有一個太空包，你們還提供了太空包。"],["林署長毓堂：對，我們是裝在太空包裡……不是，我們是裝在防護包裡面。"],["陳委員瑩：防護包？"],["林署長毓堂：對，防護包。"],["陳委員瑩：好，所以你不叫太空包，那個叫防護包是嗎？"],["林署長毓堂：裝石綿的是太空袋，我們俗稱稱為太空袋，那個是袋子。"],["陳委員瑩：太空袋？所以我講太空袋、太空包、防護包，你們都聽得懂啦？"],["林署長毓堂：聽得懂。"],["陳委員瑩：都是一樣的東西？"],["林署長毓堂：不一樣。"],["陳委員瑩：不一樣？"],["林署長毓堂：防護包是給個人的。"],["陳委員瑩：好，那個叫什麼？太空……"],["陳次長明仁：防護包裝的是……"],["陳委員瑩：你們去裝那些拆下來的……"],["陳次長明仁：太空包裝的是拆下來的石綿瓦。"],["林署長毓堂：拆下來的石綿瓦。"],["陳委員瑩：拆下來的石綿瓦是放在？"],["陳次長明仁：太空包。"],["陳委員瑩：好，那沒有錯、沒有錯。那我剛剛一開始就沒有講錯啊！對啊！那你幹嘛生出那麼多名詞來？次長，我們再看一下，N95口罩其實要能夠密合才有防護的效果，那你們的輔導同仁有教導民眾如何佩戴嗎？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，在我們的宣導品裡面是有，如果說影片的話，我們在職安署的官網上也有佩戴N95口罩的示範影片。"],["陳委員瑩：好。因為我知道部長也有去示範，請問一下，部長鬍子這麼濃密，戴N95口罩是戴得牢嗎？"],["林署長毓堂：基本上跟委員報告，N95我們買的是3M的，基本上佩戴的話，它還是符合一般人的臉型。"],["陳委員瑩：所以部長算一般人嗎？我會提這個，我也是很認真的提出這樣的問題，因為很多人他們會留鬍子，有的是上面八字鬍，有的是下面落腮鬍，落腮鬍應該是面積更大，你們遇到這樣的狀況的時候，在宣導上是不是也要做一些特別的處理？因為我的疑問是這樣到底戴不戴得牢，如果沒有問題，你就跟我說沒有問題就好了。"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，它是後面有一個束緊帶，基本上戴上去的話，我們測試來講，就是你在呼吸的時候，不要吸到外面的空氣從旁邊進來，基本上它就是有一個比較一般性的測試啦！"],["陳委員瑩：所以有鬍子是有幫助的，因為空氣可能會比較多？但是現在我們在討論石綿，所以我現在提出的這個是很嚴肅的問題，畢竟要處理這些石綿的廢棄物，我們都需要用到N95的口罩，所以要戴牢是很重要的。如果真的有隔離石綿，石綿纖維就會吸附在口罩的罩體上，所以民眾取下來的時候，會不會沾在手上，然後再間接進入人體，有沒有這樣的可能性？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，石綿的危害主要是吸入，所以這個口罩如果他當天使用完的話，我們是建議要拋棄。如果手上有接觸到的話，現在我們的衛教宣導裡面也是希望要洗手，把它洗乾淨。"],["陳委員瑩：好。因為我現在講的每個環節，其實民眾都有可能會吸入這些纖維，所以我提到的，我也希望你們能夠針對我的問題實質的回答。你們應該提供實務上有用的資訊，例如身體皮膚、衣服上也有可能都有石綿纖維，當地又停水、停電，洗澡是不方便的，如何有效地解決石綿暴露的問題，你們應該要更專業才是。","我們來看這張圖，在石綿瓦放大之後，它就是無數根的鋼針，看起來很恐怖，這些石綿纖維被吸入我們人體之後，這些鋼針就會刺入肺泡，然後造成慢性發炎，潛伏期大概是15年到35年左右，但通常等到確診的時候，差不多都是晚期，必死無疑了啦！你再看一下這張照片，我們看一下，勞動部的人全副武裝，但是中間的民眾毫無防護，你們不是要去宣導嗎？這種場景很奇怪啊！到底這樣子的輔導防護，你們覺得有達到效果嗎？你們穿給別人看，別人沒穿也沒關係？我們接下來看這張照片，石綿瓦堆積的場地有人戴口罩，有人沒有戴，底下還有一支大鐵錘，表示這是破碎用的工具，難道不是應該拉起封鎖線稍微隔離一下嗎？也都沒有啊！","然後我另外再講一下剛剛講的太空包，太空包我認為根本就不適合拿來裝這些石綿瓦的廢棄物，因為體積的關係，太空包就這麼大而已，你必須要先擊碎，去毀損這些石綿瓦，讓它變小一點之後，然後再放進去。這個擊碎的過程，你就會造成石綿瓦纖維溢散，所以這個是你們未來要去檢討思考的，每個人都在那邊敲敲打打，這個反而是很不好的。我想這樣子的作業環境，除了勞工很危險之外，附近的人也會遭受到暴露，特別是你們安研所的人，都是專門在負責勞工安全衛生的研究跟宣導，還有包括你們勞動部重建中心的這些同仁，難道都沒有具備這些常識嗎？這些防護的常識應該是他們要最清楚，比其他人更清楚才是啊！結果是做這樣子的示範。","我還想問一下，你們勞動部安研所有沒有去做石綿濃度的檢測？有沒有？有做嗎？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，目前我們內部已經跟研究所談好了，外界也在關心這一次現場的暴露情形，所以我們研究所準備開始要進行了。"],["陳委員瑩：所以現在才準備開始進行？那前面敲敲打打去收的，那個都來不及了？對，可以了……"],["林署長毓堂：8月6號，我們自己的勞檢機構也有派員到現場，以及在採樣……"],["陳委員瑩：好，沒關係，反正你們已經啟動，不管來不來得及，總是比沒有好。這一次石綿暴露高風險的事件，有專業sense的單位一定會去做研究，然後把相關作業的勞工名單清冊都建立起來，萬一將來有人得到間皮細胞癌的時候，才可以得到應有的補償，你才有得追蹤嘛！所以我想要請教一下，我們剛剛看了幾張照片，這些人有沒有造冊？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，我們跟衛福部也討論過了，如果是涉及到營造業者的話，他未來會把名單送給我們，我們會到勞保局去追蹤……"],["陳委員瑩：我講的不是這些營造業者，是這些穿制服的，他們不是你們的人嗎？"],["林署長毓堂：穿……"],["陳委員瑩：等一下，看前面幾張照片，我是說這些穿背心的人。"],["林署長毓堂：對，那是我們的輔導員。"],["陳委員瑩：對啊，他們有沒有造冊……"],["林署長毓堂：有，我們也有名冊。"],["陳委員瑩：好，要好好的追蹤。我們再看簡報6的部分，右邊是環境部彭部長在風災後去到現場，後面有暫時放置受損的石綿瓦，為了避免石綿瓦的纖維逸散，所以他們先用帆布整個蓋起來，這個專業程度就高下立判，他們就沒有用太空包，所以這張照片比較起來，環境部就是「勝」！看起來比較專業。","關於你們這一次，我的形容是……我不認為這個叫做有以身作則，你們這次去輔導好像比較偏重在石綿，像其他的如跌倒、踩踏、切割、穿刺、滑倒、高架作業墜落，都沒有看到災後防護，我想請教一下次長，你們有沒有統計這一次服務及輔導的成效？"],["陳次長明仁：報告委員，謝謝委員苦民所苦，有關於石綿瓦這部分，環境部第一時間在臺南跟嘉義都設置了堆置場，但是相應的拆除工作，在一開始的現場，因為大概有3萬棟左右的房屋屋頂掀開受損，所以大家剛開始的時候是蓋帆布。下面的石綿會有一些問題，所以勞動部洪部長第一時間就要求職安署副署長下去前進指揮所，設了4個服務站及相關的輔導團，先備置了一些物資，讓大家能夠緊急使用。但是實際上，石綿拆除真的是一個專業的工作，這部分未來應該……目前我們跟環保署大家都在處理當中，應該由專業業者處理，至於相關的從業人員中間有接觸到這一些石綿軌跡的，我們都會把他造冊追蹤一些後續該注意的部分。","至於其他的部分，當然主要會是在剛開始的時候，疫情期間是在最早的時候，在屋頂爬上爬下，可能會有一些墜落的問題，所以後來屋頂相關的相應處理，重建中心是採移緩濟急的方式，用工班的方式去請國內相關的營造業者做相應的協助。在相關的處理過程裡面，包括鷹架的搭設各方面都有跟相關的從業人員做一些說明和處理。","至於剛剛委員所講關於數據的部分，我們會後再來統整給委員。"],["陳委員瑩：好，再麻煩你們把成果數據給我們辦公室。","另外我快速再問一下，因為我也覺得滿疑惑，難道只有臺南有防護站？但是雲林、嘉義跟高雄他們都沒有，是不是？是因為沒有防護的必要？"],["陳次長明仁：因為石綿是早期的產品，洪部長有指示研究所的危評組要去做石綿濃度的處理，這是第一件事情……"],["陳委員瑩：我這邊應該……"],["陳次長明仁：第二個部分是有關……"],["陳委員瑩：不好意思，災後防護不會只有石綿，我前面講石綿，我後面有講跌倒、踩踏、滑倒等等，很多這種高架作業墜落的災後防護。"],["陳次長明仁：我們在相應的措施上會再來注意……"],["陳委員瑩：所以目前是雲林、嘉義、高雄都沒有嗎？"],["陳次長明仁：都有。"],["陳委員瑩：都有？"],["陳次長明仁：我們有些是透過鄉公所或者是……"],["陳委員瑩：你們有去臺東嗎？"],["陳次長明仁：臺中？"],["陳委員瑩：臺東，臺東有去嗎？沒有嘛？我才去了一個學校，其棒球場的牛棚屋頂整個被吹破，它到時候可能也會有高架墜落作業的問題，也是會有啊！我是提醒你們要稍微注意評估一下啦！將來如果再有類似的風災，勞動部會比照這一次，就是再去現場提供災後防護的輔導嗎？未來都會吧？"],["陳次長明仁：會。"],["陳委員瑩：好，以前沒有看過你們有這樣的服務，雖然是災後過了好一段時間才去，但還是要給你們肯定，我希望未來這個期程可能要加速。","最後我再提醒勞動部，我們要去輔導民眾，除了專業要足夠外，我覺得要跟在地災民感同身受，並設身處地的去服務，這個也是要很注意，不是我們穿著背心就代表專業，要用心認真，相信民眾就會有感，提供服務的人員一定要有訓練，同時還要有專業，才可以提供更好的服務，不要只是去送東西，沒有考慮到民眾會不會用到、可以用多久，我想這樣的服務很快就不會受到……人家會反感啦，所以我在這邊提醒這些細節，要請你們要重視。"],["陳次長明仁：好，謝謝委員，有關相關細節的部分，我們會把它弄得更清楚，謝謝委員的指點，我們將來在相關的部分再把它做得更完整。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席（劉委員建國）：本日會議詢答全部結束，委員盧縣一、楊曜、陳冠廷、徐欣瑩、何欣純所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員盧縣一書面質詢：","請問：","去年底就服法46條修法通過，明訂雇主聘僱外國人從事家庭看護工作，被看護者凡是年齡滿80歲以上，或70歲至79歲患有癌症二期以上者，得免經醫療機構之專業評估。","因此，勞動部預告3項法規修正：「雇主聘僱外國人許可及管理辦法」、「藍領審查標準」、「轉換雇主準則」。請說明：3項修正法規將如何使制度再精進？"],["委員楊曜書面質詢：","壹、護理執業率創5年新低，衛福部如何精進政策工具？","問題：近日媒體報導，護理人員執業率創5年新低，為了留住護理人力，衛福部去年提出夜班獎勵金、試辦三班護病比等政策，又立法院調查報告指出，年資3個月以上護理離職率逾9成，護理執業率也未增，檢視衛福部最新統計，護理人員總執業率從2021年的63.44%一路下滑至今年6月的62.4%，創下近5年新低，顯示衛福部雖提出政策工具，盼留住護理人力，但至今護理師執業率仍未止跌回升，請教衛福部，如何精進政策工具，避免護理師執業率持續下滑？再者，即便護理師仍於醫療院所服務，但部分卻轉往基層醫療院所執業，為此，衛福部如何協助地區醫院以上層級醫院留住護理人力，避免因護理人力不足，導致無法開病床，造成急診壅塞狀況遲遲無法改善？又先前衛福部曾提出，要與考選部研議，提升護理師國家考試通過率，目前辦理情形為何？","貳、為因應八十歲免評聘看護移工勞動部與衛福部提出六大配套措施，如何確保重症家庭優先之餘也兼顧看護品質？","問題：針對就業服務法第46條修正條文，新增開放被看護者年齡滿80歲以上或70歲至79歲患有癌症二期以上者，得免經醫療機構之專業評估，騁僱外籍家庭看護工。相關子法於日前上路，估計將增加10萬健康亞健康長者申請，恐衝擊重症家庭更難找人或留人，因此，勞動部提出六大配套措施如下：一、推動輕重分流重症優先，二、擴大重症多元免評資格，三、重症家庭國內承接最優先，四、協調來源國增加量能確保品質，五、補足第一線執行人力，六、擴編預算支持看護家庭等，就上述措施來請教勞動部，在措施三中，針對重症家庭開放可跨業別承接移工，移工只需在核發聘僱許可前，完成補充訓練20小時即可轉任，對此，勞動部有無再次審核機制來確保重症家庭的看護品質？再者，在移工需求大增的情形下，勞動部表示已努力與4個移工來源國（印尼、泰國、越南、菲律賓）協商增加量能與確保培訓品質，預計增加量能為何？以及如何確保培訓品質？是否有計畫派人至移工來源國實地會勘確保移工訓練品質？最後，申請移工流程繁瑣，是否能為重症家庭開辦一站式服務？","參、勞動部是否研議修法增加特休天數以利降低勞工總工時？","問題：今年五月初，立院三讀通過《紀念日及節日實施條例》，勞動節改為全國放假，國定假日新增4天（小年夜、9/28、10/25、12/25），同一時間，有勞團呼籲勞動部應提出《勞動基準法》修正草案，增加勞工特休假天數，以日本為例，年資滿半年有10天特休；韓國，年資滿一年，有15天特休，反觀我國不論是起始特休天數，或是滿一年特休天數，與日韓各國相比，勞工特休權益皆差於日韓二國，請教勞動部，是否認為有調整的必要？是否會召集專家小組會議凝聚修法共識？預計何時提出勞動基準法的修正草案？"],["委員陳冠廷書面質詢：","主旨：關於就業服務法修正後外籍家庭看護工聘僱制度改革及配套措施之質詢","一、修法後外籍看護工申請流程簡化問題","就業服務法第46條修正後，新增開放被看護者年齡滿80歲以上或70歲至79歲患有癌症二期以上者，得免經醫療機構之專業評估聘僱外籍家庭看護工。然而，申請流程仍按照現行SOP，未見實質簡化。請說明：","1.關於國內招募流程之檢討：","(1)目前80歲以上申請者仍須在「臺灣就業通」刊登7天進行國內招募，鑒於國內24小時住家看護人力嚴重短缺，媒合率極低，此7天等待期是否流於形式，延誤急需照護家庭之需求？","(2)貴部是否考慮將「國內招募」與「申請外勞許可」改為同步進行，而非互為前提？預計何時可實施？","(3)針對符合資格之申請案，是否可直接啟動雙軌程序，以縮短申請時間？","2.關於跨部會整合之強化：","(1)目前申請流程分散於衛福部長照中心與勞動部系統，民眾須於兩個部會間往返申請。貴部是否規劃建立跨部會單一窗口？","(2)是否可整合至各縣市長照中心，由單一窗口受理，系統後台自動進行資格審核與國內推介？具體規劃為何？","(3)在推動數位治理政策下，如何改善目前兩部會各行其是的現況？","3.關於重症家庭權益保障：","(1)貴部推估新法上路後將有約10萬人申請，目前申請情形如何？後續評估申請數量何時可能達到高峰？","(2)雖新增188名行政人力，若申請暴增，是否有應變方案？例如臨時增援、數位化加速處理？","(3)如何確保不會壓縮重症家庭的申請權益？是否有監測機制避免外籍看護「棄重擇輕」現象？","(4)針對仲介公司利用「80歲免評」進行廣告搶案，貴部如何監管仲介市場，避免商業炒作？","二、移工失聯後遞補等待期問題","現行規定雇主所聘僱之外籍移工逃逸後，須等待1個月後才可再申請外籍移工（原3個月已改為1個月），此規定變相懲罰雇主，罔顧被照顧者亟需照護之權益。請說明：","1.關於等待期正當性之檢討：","(1)移工失聯時，雇主和被照顧者實為受害者。若雇主合法聘僱、無可歸責事由，為何須承擔1個月等待期？","(2)此規定是否將移工管理風險不當轉嫁給失能家庭？貴部對此有何看法？","2.關於照護空窗期之配套：","(1)1個月空窗期內，被照顧者之照護需求如何滿足？","(2)衛福部雖提供長照2.0或喘息服務，但現有長照量能是否足以「立即」且「充足」地填補24小時照護缺口？請提供具體數據說明。","(3)是否有評估過空窗期對重症家庭造成的實際影響？","3.關於法規修正建議：","(1)貴部是否考慮修正《就業服務法》第58條，針對家庭看護工實施「零等待期」？","(2)只要雇主完成法定通報（確認失聯並通報主管機關），是否可立即允許其申請遞補？","(3)若暫不修法，是否有其他行政措施可縮短等待期？","三、合意轉換雇主申請延宕問題","外籍移工若不願待在原雇主處，想換新雇主，雇主仍需等待主管機關公文核定才可再申請外籍移工，此時間通常要1個月以上。請說明：","1.關於行政程序簡化：","(1)當勞資雙方已簽署「合意解約證明」並經地方政府驗證，原雇主照護缺口事實已成立，為何不能憑此協議事實立即申請遞補？","(2)為何須等待勞動部核發「廢止聘僱許可函」之公文旅行？系統為何不能即時連動？","(3)在數位化政府的政策下，此種公文往返是否有改善空間？","2.關於遞補資格限制：","(1)為何原雇主的遞補權利，要與原移工是否在1個月內找到新工作掛鉤？此規定之法理依據為何？","(2)既然已經合意解約，雇主應有權尋找新人力，此項限制是否不合理？","(3)貴部是否考慮取消此項不合理限制？","3.關於系統優化建議：","(1)是否可修改行政規則，只要雇主提交經地方主管機關驗證的合意解約證明，系統即時認定名額出缺，立即開放遞補資格？","(2)預計何時可完成相關系統優化？","(3)在系統優化前，是否有過渡性措施加速處理？","請貴部就上述問題提供詳細說明，並提出具體可行的改革方案，以保障失能家庭之照護權益，實現政府簡政便民之目標。請貴部於二週內提供書面回覆。"],["委員徐欣瑩書面質詢：","針對「80歲以上長者聘請外籍看護免巴氏量表」政策實施後，衍生「外籍看護棄重擇輕」及「長照與外籍看護申請流程未有效整合」等問題，恐衝擊重症家庭照護權益及加重行政負擔，本席要求勞動部與衛生福利部具體檢討並提出改進方案。","問題一：外籍看護「棄重擇輕」現象與重症家庭的照護危機","這項新政策放寬了80歲以上長者的聘僱門檻，預計將大幅增加市場對外籍看護的需求。然而，這也意外地導致了市場供需的結構性失衡。當外籍看護面對更多選擇時，他們傾向於選擇工作強度較低、照顧對象身體狀況較佳的家庭，導致所謂的「棄重擇輕」現象。","這對真正需要高強度、專業照護的重症家庭（如癌症末期、長期臥床者）造成了嚴峻挑戰。他們不僅面臨更長的媒合等待期，還可能因看護工頻繁流動而難以維持穩定的照護品質。儘管政府推出了「輕重分流、重症優先」的配套措施，但實際執行上仍有改善空間。","待改進之處","1.實質強化仲介機構的監督與激勵機制：政府應從源頭著手，修正現行的跨國人力仲介評鑑規範。除了增加協助重症家庭的評鑑項目外，更應建立具體的獎懲制度。例如，對於成功媒合重症家庭並維持長期穩定服務的仲介，可提供實質的補助或評鑑加分。反之，若有仲介機構因「棄重擇輕」而拒絕或怠慢重症案件，應有明確的罰則與公開的懲處紀錄，以有效引導仲介行為。","2.提升外籍看護的專業能力與承接誘因：現行僅20小時的補充訓練，對於複雜的重症照護需求顯然不足。政府應與移工來源國協商，強化外籍看護來台前的專業培訓，特別是針對管路照護、復健輔助、急救應變等技能。同時，可研議為承接重症案件的外籍看護提供額外的薪資補貼或獎金，並優化其工作條件與支持系統，從而提高其承接重症照護的意願，從根本上解決「棄重擇輕」的問題。","問題二：長照與外籍看護申請流程未能有效整合","目前，長照2.0服務與外籍看護申請分屬衛生福利部與勞動部管轄，導致行政流程「多頭馬車」，使得家庭在面臨照顧困境時，必須耗費大量時間與精力。以一個家庭同時需要長照服務（如輔具）與聘僱外籍看護為例，他們必須分別聯繫長照管理中心進行評估，並向醫療機構申請相關證明。","這種行政流程的割裂，不僅加重了家屬的行政負擔，也阻礙了兩種制度資源的有效連結。儘管政府不斷強調要將兩者結合，但在本質上，長照服務被視為「福利」，而外籍看護則屬於「自費聘僱」，這種觀念上的區隔使得制度整合難度極高，也讓家屬難以獲得真正「一站式」的綜合性照護方案。","待改進之處","1.建立「單一窗口」與「整合性評估」機制：政府應以「便民」為核心，從制度設計上徹底整合兩種服務。應由地方長期照顧管理中心作為唯一的服務窗口，提供「一站式」服務。透過單一的評估表單，照顧管理專員可以全面評估家庭的照顧需求、身體失能狀況及環境條件，並據此同時提出長照服務與外籍看護的建議方案，大幅減少家屬的重複奔波。","2.強化長照體系對外籍看護家庭的服務功能：應將聘僱外籍看護的家庭視為長照體系的一環，而非獨立於外的存在。除了放寬他們使用長照喘息、日間照顧服務的限制外，政府應強化長照管理中心的功能，使其不僅提供評估，更能主動提供諮詢與轉介服務。同時，應建立全國性線上資訊平台，整合長照服務與外籍看護的申請流程與即時資訊，讓家庭能更有效率地管理與運用資源。"],["委員何欣純書面質詢：","外籍移工是我國社會發展及經濟活動中，不可或缺的夥伴。尤其台中市，為全國移工人數第二高之城市，有超過十萬名的移工朋友，對我國產業發展及社福體系之穩定至關重要。有鑑於去（2024）年底立法院三讀修正《就業服務法》第46條，開放80歲以上長者免經巴氏量表即可聘僱外籍看護工，恐影響重症照顧需求之家庭，特向勞動部、衛生福利部及相關單位提出質詢","一、我國移工政策應立基於總體勞動力需求","查我國現正面臨產業、農業、社福等全面性的勞動力短缺，根據國發會推估，我國於2028年將終結人口紅利，2030年面臨約40萬人的勞動力缺口。可預期的是，我國對於外籍移工之倚賴將日益加深。因此，任何關於移工申請程序、名額與資格之調整，皆應立基於詳實之大數據盤點與總體市場評估，方能穩定勞動供需，兼顧各方權益。","在人口結構面上，據內政部統計我國2024年總生育率僅0.87%，遠低於已開發國家平均之2%。此外，國人初婚年齡逐年上升，至2023年男性約32.9歲、女性為31歲。各項指標顯示，少子化、高齡化已成為我國不可逆的人口趨勢。政策制定需精準預測未來十年、二十年的勞動人口缺口規模，並區分出不同年齡層、不同教育背景的勞動力供給變化。","其次，在產業結構面上，面對少子化及全球經貿環境改變之雙重夾擊，勞動部應結合國家經濟發展藍圖，分析未來哪些產業是成長引擎，需要何種技能組合的勞動力。同時，也需評估哪些傳統產業面臨轉型壓力，其勞動力需求將如何演變。以中部地區為例，作為全球精密機械與工具機產業重鎮，中部共有5個科學園區及47個產業園區，2023年產值達6兆元，佔全國15%。面對少子化趨勢下未來勞動力不足的困境，勞動部允宜主動會同各主管機關盤點全國及各區域勞動力需求，以製造業、農業、社福三大面向，進行全面的數據盤點與政策體檢，據以提出穩定、可長可久的移工政策。","二、80歲免巴氏量表造成排擠效應？重症家庭受影響，衛服部、勞動部如何協助？","我國因應高齡化及少子化挑戰，引進外籍家庭看護，其政策初衷乃為優先協助失能、重症之家庭，分擔其沉重之照護壓力。然去（2024）年底立法院三讀修正《就業服務法》第46條，新增80歲以上長者免經巴氏量表即可聘僱外籍看護工。此一修法雖立意良善，意在便民，卻因未周全考量整體勞動市場供需，而產生「避重擇輕」之排擠效應，致使原先最需要被照顧的重症家庭，反成最大受害者。","勞動部評估，就業服務法第46條新制通過後，現有80歲以上人口約91萬人，扣除已入住長照機構（4.6萬人）、使用長照2.0（26.9萬人）及聘僱外籍看護工（6.5萬人）後，剩餘53萬人即符合聘僱資格。此外，還須加上70至79歲罹患二期以上癌症者12.5萬人，勞動部推估將增加10萬名家庭看護工需求。","因應就業服務法第46條新制之可能衝擊，衛生福利部於今日檢送本委員會書面報告指出，達長照需要等級2級以上被照顧者，若外籍看護有未到任、請假返鄉、轉換雇主、期滿離境或行蹤不明等情形，即視為未聘外看狀態，可使用長照交通接送、喘息服務與照顧及專業服務等各項資源。","衛福部所提之配套措施，雖立意良善，但未能解市場供需失衡之困境。當務之急，是重症家庭連「第一位」外籍看護都可能聘僱不到，或面臨看護頻繁要求轉換至較輕鬆的案家，導致照護空窗期不斷。此一困境的根源，正在於政策僅著眼於資格放寬（需求端），卻未同步規劃看護工的總量引進、來源國開發及分級媒合機制（供給端），導致市場供需嚴重失衡。"],["主席：現在作以下決議：第一、報告及詢答完畢。第二、委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","上午議程到此結束，現在休息。下午2點在本會議室繼續審查病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案等5案，現在休息。","休息（12時40分）","繼續開會（14時4分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":220,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-25","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","林淑芬","王正旭","陳瑩","盧縣一","楊曜","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","何欣純"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2025-08-20"],"gazette_id":"1147502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長、衛生福利部就「就業服務法第46條，80歲以上長者聘請外籍看護免巴氏量\n表上路，對重症家庭的衝擊與配套措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審查 (一）委員王\n育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(二）委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人\n自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九\n條及第十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正\n草案」案、(五)委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案【逐條\n討論】","agenda_id":"1147502_00002"}}}