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\"這個農田呢他現在呢他的取水不是透過水利溝來取水他自己打井取水但是農田要排水還是用原來的灌溉溝但是這個灌溉溝已經移給地方政府去做清淤了他不只要排農田的水還要排附近住家的水但是因為呢地方政府他沒有能力財力不足他不去做結果造成了呢住宅的民生水也沒辦法排農田的水也沒辦法排陳部長有沒有地方跟你反映這個問題\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"田\", \"start\": 419.511, \"end\": 419.671, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 419.671, \"end\": 419.892, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 419.892, \"end\": 420.232, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 420.232, \"end\": 420.372, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 420.372, \"end\": 420.612, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 420.612, \"end\": 420.772, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 420.772, \"end\": 420.972, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"取\", \"start\": 420.972, \"end\": 421.293, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"水\", \"start\": 421.293, \"end\": 421.853, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 421.853, \"end\": 421.973, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": 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447.75, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 447.75, \"end\": 447.93, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 447.93, \"end\": 448.01, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 448.01, \"end\": 448.11, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"反\", \"start\": 448.11, \"end\": 448.211, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"映\", \"start\": 448.211, \"end\": 448.231, \"score\": 0.025}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}]}, {\"start\": 450.495, \"end\": 455.969, \"text\": \"陸續有一些縣市或是鄉鎮有反應這樣的一個問題但是每個個案我們都跟經濟部在處理\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"陸\"}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 450.495, \"end\": 450.715, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 450.715, \"end\": 450.896, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 450.896, \"end\": 451.698, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"縣\"}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 451.698, \"end\": 452.079, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 452.079, \"end\": 452.219, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 452.219, \"end\": 452.821, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"鄉\"}, {\"word\": \"鎮\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 452.821, \"end\": 453.041, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"反\", \"start\": 453.041, \"end\": 453.543, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 453.543, \"end\": 453.623, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 453.623, \"end\": 454.044, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 454.044, \"end\": 454.204, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 454.204, \"end\": 454.465, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"每\", \"start\": 454.465, \"end\": 454.946, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 454.946, \"end\": 455.106, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 455.106, \"end\": 455.367, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 455.367, \"end\": 455.588, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 455.588, \"end\": 455.688, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"濟\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 455.688, \"end\": 455.808, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 455.808, \"end\": 455.949, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 455.949, \"end\": 455.969, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 457.56, \"end\": 482.356, \"text\": \"所以我說地方跟中央要共同齊心協力我們的預算已經撥下去你就盡量做但是我覺得中央還是可以來協助一件事情什麼事情其實這些農田它跟民生住宅是混在一起的這些溝渠廢為水利溝之後它作為區域排水地方政府要去維護這沒錯但是事實上我們中央從各級的道路它都有側溝排水\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 457.56, \"end\": 457.74, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 457.74, \"end\": 457.86, \"score\": 0.713}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 457.86, \"end\": 458.461, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 458.461, \"end\": 458.581, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 458.581, \"end\": 458.741, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"跟\", 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{\"word\": \"放\", \"start\": 495.642, \"end\": 495.662, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 497.222, \"end\": 516.52, \"text\": \"陳部長 交通部是不是主管全國各地的道路分級道路的一個規範的設計 工程規範的設計要求是 我們工程設計的規範要求我們的道路排水都是以怎樣 以降水的宣洩為主我把路面的降水排擦就可以了 車庫救護的功能\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 497.222, \"end\": 498.103, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 498.103, \"end\": 498.243, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 498.243, \"end\": 498.403, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 498.403, \"end\": 498.603, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 498.603, \"end\": 498.684, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 498.684, \"end\": 498.724, \"score\": 0.661}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 498.724, \"end\": 498.784, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 498.784, \"end\": 498.944, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 498.944, \"end\": 499.164, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 499.164, \"end\": 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00:01:14,698\n很少辦很少辦理我過去在這10年100年辦一次然後再來就是113年辦台電的追加所以我就認為這10年來我還是第一次遇到但是我在過去地方擔任副縣長期間我們常常辦追加預算為什麼因為地方政府很多是仰仗中央政府的補助或計劃競爭型計劃我們會預算先列\n\n4\n00:01:18,321 --> 00:01:45,445\n但是必須中央補助下來的時候我們才辦追加為什麼因為錢沒到我們不能辦發包所以我們對於中央政府准許我們的補助之後我們會馬上辦追加所以地方政府幾乎年度中都會辦追加追加的因為就是等著米下鍋行教院長這次辦理追加的原因是不是中央政府沒有米下鍋需要立法院同意這些追加預算才有辦法繼續施政\n\n5\n00:01:46,651 --> 00:02:13,680\n委員這個形容是貼切的跟我說的一樣水庫沒有水支流就沒有水所以必須要水庫的水先把它填滿米要下鍋的意思是相同的那一般的社會認知去年在野黨亂砍中央政府走運算造成我們今年度的施政推動困難地方很多建設無錢可做為了解決這個困境所以由我們韓院長出面用追加預算的方式來解決這個無米可吹的困境是不是這樣\n\n6\n00:02:15,163 --> 00:02:22,553\n當初是有談過在總統召集的院紀協商當中韓院長是很好意的提出了這樣的方式\n\n7\n00:02:23,175 --> 00:02:49,603\n但是既然這樣的一個追加預算的方法是我們韓院長也提出為了解決過去國會亂砍預算造成施政困難但是又不能夠預算重審所以請行政院以追加的方式來做是不是這樣子是沒錯嗎是好結果我看到前天我們立法院的預算中心說這一次追加預算的從編率過高削弱了立法院的職權我很疑惑\n\n8\n00:02:50,974 --> 00:03:20,186\n明明就是立法院亂三三過頭了做不下去了才有院長出面為了解決這個難題請行政院不是用複製的方式提出用追加的預算方式提出簡單講我們行政院買一輛車結果呢立法院審計這邊啊也不要倒車雷達也不要那個衛星定位什麼都不要配備都不要結果連方向都沒有這個車交給你沒辦法開所以呢只好拜託再把這些配備恢復回去這輛車才能開\n\n9\n00:03:20,925 --> 00:03:43,084\n是不是這樣子是但是我們也謝謝韓院長的善意那因為我們那個時候到現在各部會執行上發生的困難總要有一段時間去推動那現在收集的各部會所困難的狀況以及這個636億我們才組成這個再加上一些新增事項才有這個878億因為簡單講就是買一輛新車但是有人認為你們新車價格太高\n\n10\n00:03:43,945 --> 00:04:12,786\n很多設備都砍掉了結果這個車你開回來發現哇油箱只有5公升根本沒有辦法開遠途所以要求再回去再買一個換個大油箱是不是這樣子所以我是覺得雖然院長在這裡啊院長竟然有這麼好意也應該提醒一下預算中心啊既然這是院長要求用一個補救之道當然重編率很高嘛就是因為亂砍砍就不該砍的才需要透過追加預算回復重編嘛院長你說對嗎\n\n11\n00:04:13,852 --> 00:04:36,113\n我們也是依照各部會實際之所需有部會已經刪除的認為他不至於造成重大自在難行也並不在這整個預算的這個追加當中所以啊我很少對我們立法院自己的機關自己的部門批評這個預算中心這篇話為什麼成為新聞因為真的是狗咬人才是新聞\n\n12\n00:04:37,308 --> 00:05:06,096\n預算中心辜負了院長解決預算執行困難的好意結果還去批評說預算充電率太高真的就是這個預算中心不上新聞不死心啊非給要我們韓院長難堪不可啊好我們現在來問我們真正重要的議題來我們主委長請回我們請農業部長還有我們的這個交通部長麻煩請農業部交通部備詢來我們現在看一下院長你看一下這張照片\n\n13\n00:05:07,165 --> 00:05:25,063\n你認為水汪汪的這裡是什麼東西底下是什麼它是河還是路它應該是一條路而且是淤泥的水是我們農村常見的道路鋪得還不錯但是現在通通是水了為什麼\n\n14\n00:05:25,845 --> 00:05:44,764\n因為旁邊的農田水都排到道路上去了本來是路道現在變成河道我們來往下看來陳部長我們來看一下我們農田水利會過去有農田水利會農田水利法過去是農田水利會的時候我們的灌溉排水的溝渠是地方的水利會在負責\n\n15\n00:05:46,366 --> 00:06:10,215\n農委會或農業部是負責補足對不對但是現在因為農田水稻修改之後所有農田水利會都由中央變成農田水利署的地方管理處這裡我們發現水利署根據農水法去執行如果沒有農用事實沒有灌溉需求的原來的灌溉的勾牌他就不再做灌溉勾了就變成了是由地方政府的區牌來處理是不是這樣子\n\n16\n00:06:11,212 --> 00:06:40,293\n對如果已經不需要做農業灌溉的時候它可以化為都市化填調或者是變成一個都市裡面的區域所以我們把這些具有排水功能的溝渠交給地方政府因為地方住宅需要嘛所以院長我們有沒有並同預算也給地方政府很多的預算支持讓他們能夠來承擔這樣的工作應該在預算當中地方政府可以運用到這個方向來好但是呢每個地方政府分配的不一樣\n\n17\n00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:58,211\n因為分配下來之後像農業縣分配到的比較少但是我們要去負責來處理成績的這些灌溉溝水的排水相對資源少所以很多地方的鄉鎮公所沒有辦法去清淤不能清淤的結果結果是什麼這個農田我們往下看\n\n18\n00:06:59,511 --> 00:07:28,231\n這個農田呢他現在呢他的取水不是透過水利溝來取水他自己打井取水但是農田要排水還是用原來的灌溉溝但是這個灌溉溝已經移給地方政府去做清淤了他不只要排農田的水還要排附近住家的水但是因為呢地方政府他沒有能力財力不足他不去做結果造成了呢住宅的民生水也沒辦法排農田的水也沒辦法排陳部長有沒有地方跟你反映這個問題\n\n19\n00:07:30,495 --> 00:07:35,969\n陸續有一些縣市或是鄉鎮有反應這樣的一個問題但是每個個案我們都跟經濟部在處理\n\n20\n00:07:37,560 --> 00:08:02,356\n所以我說地方跟中央要共同齊心協力我們的預算已經撥下去你就盡量做但是我覺得中央還是可以來協助一件事情什麼事情其實這些農田它跟民生住宅是混在一起的這些溝渠廢為水利溝之後它作為區域排水地方政府要去維護這沒錯但是事實上我們中央從各級的道路它都有側溝排水\n\n21\n00:08:03,076 --> 00:08:15,662\n現在因為道路其實就可以負擔起道路的側溝排水它不能作為灌溉使用農田是不需要依賴側溝來灌溉但是農田跟住宅的排水都可以透過道路的側溝來排放\n\n22\n00:08:17,222 --> 00:08:36,520\n陳部長交通部是不是主管全國各地的道路分級道路的一個規範的設計工程規範的設計要求是我們工程設計的規範要求我們的道路排水都是以怎樣以降水的宣洩為主我把路面的降水排擦就可以了車庫救護的功能\n\n23\n00:08:36,940 --> 00:08:49,857\n但實際上我們現在的測溝排不是只排道路的泄水我們會連同周邊廣大的住宅或農地的積水都要一起排所以它的通紅的斷面它的設計的容量是不是要提高\n\n24\n00:08:50,971 --> 00:09:14,765\n目前應該是有提高但是在規範上面我覺得是可以調整的所以我相信請院長指示農業部跟我們的交通部我們設法把農村地區的道路的工程規範的排水的效能把它提高他不只是負責道路的排水他也監助附近這些住宅或農地的排水是不是請我們指示兩位部長把這方面去研議\n\n25\n00:09:16,139 --> 00:09:42,351\n我先跟委員報告就是有關於農村地區的這些排水那因為那個水利法跟排水辦法是經濟部主管所以我們也會跟經濟部然後跟交通部一起去看看去重新一個設計我們請國發會的副主委上來也請經濟部的次長準備請陳部長可以先回謝謝您的支持好那麼部長你又指示了嘛那農業部長也說了那接下來的國發會這裡很重要\n\n26\n00:09:43,001 --> 00:10:05,860\n因為現在發現農業部他負責的設施他的效能不實現於農業而已所以目前農業部報的這些有農村地區相關的水利工程的預算請國科會要支持院長支不支持謝謝委員這個建議國科會可以支持國發會可以支持吧是的好那麼我們請經營部次長來好那接下來我談另外一個問題\n\n27\n00:10:07,788 --> 00:10:31,396\n下一個問題我們現在談一個問題這次的風災發生了很多電力網故障需要代修的情況是不是院長你下去親自看了是不是很多的電力網要花很多的人力去修復這很多的事故其實不是特別嚴重就是樹枝殘葉捲到了架空線才一定要耗費人力去排除\n\n28\n00:10:32,356 --> 00:10:52,711\n經濟部長是不是這樣子好但是我們仔細看了一下為什麼在農村居住地區有那麼多樹呢就是一個平地造林政策農業部陳部長平地造林有關水土保持嗎沒有嘛有一部分啦平地造林當年是20年前為什麼推動平地造林\n\n29\n00:10:53,456 --> 00:11:09,433\n所以我要加入WTO為了減少台灣的耕地面積的計算所以我們霸量的農地比較生產力低的我們鼓勵他平地造林是不是這樣子所以這些造的林啊它是要零補助的但是正因為它只要零補助\n\n30\n00:11:10,162 --> 00:11:36,924\n他不求經濟效益所以平地造林20年來的亂象很多那麼其中包括什麼平地造林周邊地區這些樹疏於整理常常妨礙了道路上的電力的架空線造成台電的負擔何市長是不是這樣子這次的那個風災的停電一部分是因為這個樹枝的部分沒有修剪的部分我當然就屏東縣那個台電的區管處台電區營業處去算\n\n31\n00:11:39,474 --> 00:11:56,012\n111年數目構成的就這七件去年更多因為今年的颱風屏東比較沒有那麼嚴重去年的山陀我們很多的台電事故花費人力去做這些市長這些平地造林有三分之一是台塘的地你知道嗎是\n\n32\n00:11:56,633 --> 00:12:15,125\n可不可以院長請經濟部責任台棠先將他們平地造林的林地周邊有道路有架空線的優先把他們平地造林的樹木疏伐退縮3到5公尺避免再發生這個情況可以嗎謝謝委員提醒經濟部應該要求台棠要負起這個責任\n\n33\n00:12:16,052 --> 00:12:43,420\n好謝謝所以呢我說與其颱風前去修減樹枝不如把這些沒有經濟效益的平地造林直接退縮疏伐不要再花力氣去維護也不會造成架空線受損市長你支持吧我支持好謝謝請回好來接下來我們要問的就是陳部長了院長其實平地造林不是只有在颱風風災的時候影響到我們的電力供應他也因為他屬於管理\n\n34\n00:12:44,722 --> 00:13:07,468\n陳部長你所知道的台灣這些平地造林有實際達到經濟林可以成材銷售獲益的有沒有我跟委員報告整個平地造林現在面積大概有一萬三千五百多公尺台塘占三分之以上然後台塘是一萬零差不多一萬零五百三分之二那其中已經成林而且具有生態價值大概三千八百多公尺你說的是生態價值\n\n35\n00:13:08,388 --> 00:13:29,257\n但是現在有700多公頃是可以恢復農業生產或是700多公頃我真的一萬三千公頃有700多萬分農業生產其他的你不做農業生產他也沒有經濟零的效益他有生態棲息的效益但是生態棲息的效益地主沒有享受到我們平地造林20年期滿地主還可以領補助嗎\n\n36\n00:13:30,848 --> 00:13:46,682\n沒有了嗎所以沒有林補助的治下這13000多公頃的平地造林他就變成是一個地主爹不娘爺不愛沒有人去管只會造成附近農地農民的公害鼠害蛇害妨礙積水這些害眠部長你瞭解嗎\n\n37\n00:13:47,482 --> 00:14:15,709\n我跟委員報告就是一般平地造林很多樹種是20年還是不能砍拔的然後可能還要在10年的部分所以我們有後續的獎勵我們現在沒有要加入WTO了平地造林當時的政策目標卓院長您仔細聽已經沒有了所以平地造林要整個的去重新盤點退場讓這些原來的農地它是不是可以做農業還是做其他的用途使用好好的來思考一下\n\n38\n00:14:17,037 --> 00:14:43,342\n我想我們會遵照委員的一個建議我剛才說的就是不是700公尺是7000公頃左右是可以當作生產跟零下經濟的部分那我們會重新盤點將有一些是不是可以可以把它砍拔以後變成恢復到生產所以何市長再上來我現在就講一個例子講給院長聽現在台積電要在屏東要設廠看中什麼\n\n39\n00:14:44,059 --> 00:14:59,123\n看中了我們的台塘的地上面在種什麼種外銷的毛豆那台塘當然是讓給台積電請毛豆農另外走啊那毛豆農他沒有地可以種他去問台塘還有哪些地可以種毛豆台塘說很多造林地\n\n40\n00:15:00,185 --> 00:15:16,295\n那些造林地其實不是只是台塘的台灣全國的平地造林地都應該用這個思維來思考如果這些地像台塘租給農民種毛豆地如果也可以台積電蓋廠經濟部支持嗎行政院支不支持\n\n41\n00:15:18,457 --> 00:15:40,832\n評論支持啊平衡縣會支持啊但是毛澤東怎麼辦毛澤東要去找其他的地如果這些地是平地造林的地部長是不是應該重新全部盤點平地造林的地如果有已經不適合做造林使用改用其他不管是其他的使用方式整個來通盤檢討院長支不支持我覺得通盤檢討的事情\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9147\t27907\t主席 在場的委員先進列席的政府經濟總統官員會場工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請卓院長跟陳主席長然後請農業部 交通部 經濟部跟國發會請準備麻煩請卓院長 主席總長\n36551\t54696\t總務委員好院長好 主席長好剛才我聽了前面幾位委員尤其在當委員的質詢我也很疑惑院長 主席長我來自過去十年前來自地方政府我們過去的地方政府常常辦理追加預算我先請教主席長中央政府行政院常辦理追加預算嗎\n56020\t74698\t很少辦很少辦理我過去在這10年100年辦一次然後再來就是113年辦台電的追加所以我就認為這10年來我還是第一次遇到但是我在過去地方擔任副縣長期間我們常常辦追加預算為什麼因為地方政府很多是仰仗中央政府的補助或計劃競爭型計劃我們會預算先列\n78321\t105445\t但是必須中央補助下來的時候我們才辦追加為什麼因為錢沒到我們不能辦發包所以我們對於中央政府准許我們的補助之後我們會馬上辦追加所以地方政府幾乎年度中都會辦追加追加的因為就是等著米下鍋行教院長這次辦理追加的原因是不是中央政府沒有米下鍋需要立法院同意這些追加預算才有辦法繼續施政\n106651\t133680\t委員這個形容是貼切的 跟我說的一樣水庫沒有水 支流就沒有水所以必須要水庫的水先把它填滿米要下鍋的意思是相同的那一般的社會認知去年在野黨亂砍中央政府走運算造成我們今年度的施政推動困難地方很多建設無錢可做為了解決這個困境所以由我們韓院長出面用追加預算的方式來解決這個無米可吹的困境 是不是這樣\n135163\t142553\t當初是有談過在總統召集的院紀協商當中韓院長是很好意的提出了這樣的方式\n143175\t169603\t但是既然這樣的一個追加預算的方法是我們韓院長也提出為了解決過去國會亂砍預算造成施政困難但是又不能夠預算重審所以請行政院以追加的方式來做是不是這樣子是沒錯嗎是好結果我看到前天我們立法院的預算中心說這一次追加預算的從編率過高削弱了立法院的職權我很疑惑\n170974\t200186\t明明就是立法院亂三三過頭了做不下去了才有院長出面為了解決這個難題請行政院不是用複製的方式提出用追加的預算方式提出簡單講我們行政院買一輛車結果呢立法院審計這邊啊也不要倒車雷達也不要那個衛星定位什麼都不要配備都不要結果連方向都沒有這個車交給你沒辦法開所以呢只好拜託再把這些配備恢復回去這輛車才能開\n200925\t223084\t是不是這樣子是 但是我們也謝謝韓院長的善意那因為我們那個時候到現在各部會執行上發生的困難總要有一段時間去推動那現在收集的各部會所困難的狀況以及這個636億我們才組成這個再加上一些新增事項才有這個878億因為簡單講就是買一輛新車但是有人認為你們新車價格太高\n223945\t252786\t很多設備都砍掉了結果這個車你開回來發現哇 油箱只有5公升根本沒有辦法開遠途所以要求再回去再買一個換個大油箱 是不是這樣子所以我是覺得雖然院長在這裡啊院長竟然有這麼好意也應該提醒一下預算中心啊既然這是院長要求用一個補救之道當然重編率很高嘛就是因為亂砍 砍就不該砍的才需要透過追加預算回復重編嘛 院長你說對嗎\n253852\t276113\t我們也是依照各部會實際之所需有部會已經刪除的認為他不至於造成重大自在難行也並不在這整個預算的這個追加當中所以啊我很少對我們立法院自己的機關自己的部門批評這個預算中心這篇話為什麼成為新聞因為真的是狗咬人才是新聞\n277308\t306096\t預算中心辜負了院長解決預算執行困難的好意結果還去批評說預算充電率太高真的就是這個預算中心不上新聞不死心啊非給要我們韓院長難堪不可啊好我們現在來問我們真正重要的議題來我們主委長請回我們請農業部長還有我們的這個交通部長麻煩請農業部交通部備詢來我們現在看一下院長你看一下這張照片\n307165\t325063\t你認為水汪汪的這裡是什麼東西底下是什麼它是河還是路它應該是一條路而且是淤泥的水是我們農村常見的道路鋪得還不錯但是現在通通是水了為什麼\n325845\t344764\t因為旁邊的農田水都排到道路上去了本來是路道現在變成河道我們來往下看來陳部長我們來看一下我們農田水利會過去有農田水利會農田水利法過去是農田水利會的時候我們的灌溉排水的溝渠是地方的水利會在負責\n346366\t370215\t農委會或農業部是負責補足對不對但是現在因為農田水稻修改之後所有農田水利會都由中央變成農田水利署的地方管理處這裡我們發現水利署根據農水法去執行如果沒有農用事實沒有灌溉需求的原來的灌溉的勾牌他就不再做灌溉勾了就變成了是由地方政府的區牌來處理是不是這樣子\n371212\t400293\t對 如果已經不需要做農業灌溉的時候它可以化為都市化 填調或者是變成一個都市裡面的區域所以我們把這些具有排水功能的溝渠交給地方政府因為地方住宅需要嘛所以院長我們有沒有並同預算也給地方政府很多的預算支持讓他們能夠來承擔這樣的工作應該在預算當中地方政府可以運用到這個方向來好但是呢每個地方政府分配的不一樣\n401240\t418211\t因為分配下來之後像農業縣分配到的比較少但是我們要去負責來處理成績的這些灌溉溝水的排水相對資源少所以很多地方的鄉鎮公所沒有辦法去清淤不能清淤的結果 結果是什麼這個農田我們往下看\n419511\t448231\t這個農田呢他現在呢他的取水不是透過水利溝來取水他自己打井取水但是農田要排水還是用原來的灌溉溝但是這個灌溉溝已經移給地方政府去做清淤了他不只要排農田的水還要排附近住家的水但是因為呢地方政府他沒有能力財力不足他不去做結果造成了呢住宅的民生水也沒辦法排農田的水也沒辦法排陳部長有沒有地方跟你反映這個問題\n450495\t455969\t陸續有一些縣市或是鄉鎮有反應這樣的一個問題但是每個個案我們都跟經濟部在處理\n457560\t482356\t所以我說地方跟中央要共同齊心協力我們的預算已經撥下去你就盡量做但是我覺得中央還是可以來協助一件事情什麼事情其實這些農田它跟民生住宅是混在一起的這些溝渠廢為水利溝之後它作為區域排水地方政府要去維護這沒錯但是事實上我們中央從各級的道路它都有側溝排水\n483076\t495662\t現在因為道路其實就可以負擔起道路的側溝排水它不能作為灌溉使用農田是不需要依賴側溝來灌溉但是農田跟住宅的排水都可以透過道路的側溝來排放\n497222\t516520\t陳部長 交通部是不是主管全國各地的道路分級道路的一個規範的設計 工程規範的設計要求是 我們工程設計的規範要求我們的道路排水都是以怎樣 以降水的宣洩為主我把路面的降水排擦就可以了 車庫救護的功能\n516940\t529857\t但實際上我們現在的測溝排不是只排道路的泄水我們會連同周邊廣大的住宅或農地的積水都要一起排所以它的通紅的斷面它的設計的容量是不是要提高\n530971\t554765\t目前應該是有提高但是在規範上面我覺得是可以調整的所以我相信請院長指示農業部跟我們的交通部我們設法把農村地區的道路的工程規範的排水的效能把它提高他不只是負責道路的排水他也監助附近這些住宅或農地的排水是不是請我們指示兩位部長把這方面去研議\n556139\t582351\t我先跟委員報告就是有關於農村地區的這些排水那因為那個水利法跟排水辦法是經濟部主管所以我們也會跟經濟部然後跟交通部一起去看看去重新一個設計我們請國發會的副主委上來也請經濟部的次長準備請陳部長可以先回 謝謝您的支持好 那麼部長你又指示了嘛那農業部長也說了那接下來的國發會這裡很重要\n583001\t605860\t因為現在發現農業部他負責的設施他的效能不實現於農業而已所以目前農業部報的這些有農村地區相關的水利工程的預算請國科會要支持 院長支不支持謝謝委員 這個建議國科會可以支持 國發會可以支持吧是的好 那麼我們請經營部次長來好 那接下來我談另外一個問題\n607788\t631396\t下一個問題我們現在談一個問題這次的風災發生了很多電力網故障需要代修的情況是不是 院長你下去親自看了是不是很多的電力網要花很多的人力去修復這很多的事故其實不是特別嚴重就是樹枝殘葉捲到了架空線才一定要耗費人力去排除\n632356\t652711\t經濟部長 是不是這樣子好 但是我們仔細看了一下為什麼在農村居住地區有那麼多樹呢就是一個平地造林政策農業部陳部長 平地造林有關水土保持嗎沒有嘛有一部分啦平地造林 當年是20年前為什麼推動平地造林\n653456\t669433\t所以我要加入WTO 為了減少台灣的耕地面積的計算所以我們霸量的農地比較生產力低的我們鼓勵他平地造林 是不是這樣子所以這些造的林啊 它是要零補助的但是正因為它只要零補助\n670162\t696924\t他不求經濟效益所以平地造林20年來的亂象很多那麼其中包括什麼平地造林周邊地區這些樹疏於整理常常妨礙了道路上的電力的架空線造成台電的負擔何市長是不是這樣子這次的那個風災的停電一部分是因為這個樹枝的部分沒有修剪的部分我當然就屏東縣那個台電的區管處台電區營業處去算\n699474\t716012\t111年數目構成的就這七件去年更多因為今年的颱風屏東比較沒有那麼嚴重去年的山陀我們很多的台電事故花費人力去做這些市長這些平地造林有三分之一是台塘的地你知道嗎是\n716633\t735125\t可不可以 院長 請經濟部責任台棠先將他們平地造林的林地周邊有道路 有架空線的優先把他們平地造林的樹木疏伐退縮3到5公尺避免再發生這個情況 可以嗎謝謝委員提醒經濟部應該要求台棠要負起這個責任\n736052\t763420\t好謝謝所以呢我說與其颱風前去修減樹枝不如把這些沒有經濟效益的平地造林直接退縮疏伐不要再花力氣去維護也不會造成架空線受損市長你支持吧我支持好謝謝請回好來接下來我們要問的就是陳部長了院長其實平地造林不是只有在颱風風災的時候影響到我們的電力供應他也因為他屬於管理\n764722\t787468\t陳部長你所知道的台灣這些平地造林有實際達到經濟林可以成材銷售獲益的有沒有我跟委員報告整個平地造林現在面積大概有一萬三千五百多公尺台塘占三分之以上然後台塘是一萬零差不多一萬零五百三分之二那其中已經成林而且具有生態價值大概三千八百多公尺你說的是生態價值\n788388\t809257\t但是現在有700多公頃是可以恢復農業生產或是700多公頃我真的一萬三千公頃有700多萬分農業生產其他的你不做農業生產他也沒有經濟零的效益他有生態棲息的效益但是生態棲息的效益地主沒有享受到我們平地造林20年期滿地主還可以領補助嗎\n810848\t826682\t沒有了嗎所以沒有林補助的治下這13000多公頃的平地造林他就變成是一個地主爹不娘爺不愛沒有人去管只會造成附近農地農民的公害鼠害蛇害妨礙積水這些害眠部長你瞭解嗎\n827482\t855709\t我跟委員報告就是一般平地造林很多樹種是20年還是不能砍拔的然後可能還要在10年的部分所以我們有後續的獎勵我們現在沒有要加入WTO了平地造林當時的政策目標卓院長您仔細聽 已經沒有了所以平地造林要整個的去重新盤點退場讓這些原來的農地它是不是可以做農業還是做其他的用途使用好好的來思考一下\n857037\t883342\t我想我們會遵照委員的一個建議我剛才說的就是不是700公尺是7000公頃左右是可以當作生產跟零下經濟的部分那我們會重新盤點將有一些是不是可以可以把它砍拔以後變成恢復到生產所以何市長再上來我現在就講一個例子講給院長聽現在台積電要在屏東要設廠看中什麼\n884059\t899123\t看中了我們的台塘的地上面在種什麼 種外銷的毛豆那台塘當然是讓給台積電 請毛豆農另外走啊那毛豆農他沒有地可以種他去問台塘還有哪些地可以種毛豆台塘說很多造林地\n900185\t916295\t那些造林地其實不是只是台塘的台灣全國的平地造林地都應該用這個思維來思考如果這些地像台塘租給農民種毛豆地如果也可以台積電蓋廠經濟部支持嗎行政院支不支持\n918457\t940832\t評論支持啊 平衡縣會支持啊但是毛澤東怎麼辦毛澤東要去找其他的地如果這些地是平地造林的地部長是不是應該重新全部盤點平地造林的地如果有已經不適合做造林使用改用其他 不管是其他的使用方式整個來通盤檢討 院長支不支持我覺得通盤檢討的事情\n","txt":"主席 在場的委員先進列席的政府經濟總統官員會場工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請卓院長跟陳主席長然後請農業部 交通部 經濟部跟國發會請準備麻煩請卓院長 主席總長\n總務委員好院長好 主席長好剛才我聽了前面幾位委員尤其在當委員的質詢我也很疑惑院長 主席長我來自過去十年前來自地方政府我們過去的地方政府常常辦理追加預算我先請教主席長中央政府行政院常辦理追加預算嗎\n很少辦很少辦理我過去在這10年100年辦一次然後再來就是113年辦台電的追加所以我就認為這10年來我還是第一次遇到但是我在過去地方擔任副縣長期間我們常常辦追加預算為什麼因為地方政府很多是仰仗中央政府的補助或計劃競爭型計劃我們會預算先列\n但是必須中央補助下來的時候我們才辦追加為什麼因為錢沒到我們不能辦發包所以我們對於中央政府准許我們的補助之後我們會馬上辦追加所以地方政府幾乎年度中都會辦追加追加的因為就是等著米下鍋行教院長這次辦理追加的原因是不是中央政府沒有米下鍋需要立法院同意這些追加預算才有辦法繼續施政\n委員這個形容是貼切的 跟我說的一樣水庫沒有水 支流就沒有水所以必須要水庫的水先把它填滿米要下鍋的意思是相同的那一般的社會認知去年在野黨亂砍中央政府走運算造成我們今年度的施政推動困難地方很多建設無錢可做為了解決這個困境所以由我們韓院長出面用追加預算的方式來解決這個無米可吹的困境 是不是這樣\n當初是有談過在總統召集的院紀協商當中韓院長是很好意的提出了這樣的方式\n但是既然這樣的一個追加預算的方法是我們韓院長也提出為了解決過去國會亂砍預算造成施政困難但是又不能夠預算重審所以請行政院以追加的方式來做是不是這樣子是沒錯嗎是好結果我看到前天我們立法院的預算中心說這一次追加預算的從編率過高削弱了立法院的職權我很疑惑\n明明就是立法院亂三三過頭了做不下去了才有院長出面為了解決這個難題請行政院不是用複製的方式提出用追加的預算方式提出簡單講我們行政院買一輛車結果呢立法院審計這邊啊也不要倒車雷達也不要那個衛星定位什麼都不要配備都不要結果連方向都沒有這個車交給你沒辦法開所以呢只好拜託再把這些配備恢復回去這輛車才能開\n是不是這樣子是 但是我們也謝謝韓院長的善意那因為我們那個時候到現在各部會執行上發生的困難總要有一段時間去推動那現在收集的各部會所困難的狀況以及這個636億我們才組成這個再加上一些新增事項才有這個878億因為簡單講就是買一輛新車但是有人認為你們新車價格太高\n很多設備都砍掉了結果這個車你開回來發現哇 油箱只有5公升根本沒有辦法開遠途所以要求再回去再買一個換個大油箱 是不是這樣子所以我是覺得雖然院長在這裡啊院長竟然有這麼好意也應該提醒一下預算中心啊既然這是院長要求用一個補救之道當然重編率很高嘛就是因為亂砍 砍就不該砍的才需要透過追加預算回復重編嘛 院長你說對嗎\n我們也是依照各部會實際之所需有部會已經刪除的認為他不至於造成重大自在難行也並不在這整個預算的這個追加當中所以啊我很少對我們立法院自己的機關自己的部門批評這個預算中心這篇話為什麼成為新聞因為真的是狗咬人才是新聞\n預算中心辜負了院長解決預算執行困難的好意結果還去批評說預算充電率太高真的就是這個預算中心不上新聞不死心啊非給要我們韓院長難堪不可啊好我們現在來問我們真正重要的議題來我們主委長請回我們請農業部長還有我們的這個交通部長麻煩請農業部交通部備詢來我們現在看一下院長你看一下這張照片\n你認為水汪汪的這裡是什麼東西底下是什麼它是河還是路它應該是一條路而且是淤泥的水是我們農村常見的道路鋪得還不錯但是現在通通是水了為什麼\n因為旁邊的農田水都排到道路上去了本來是路道現在變成河道我們來往下看來陳部長我們來看一下我們農田水利會過去有農田水利會農田水利法過去是農田水利會的時候我們的灌溉排水的溝渠是地方的水利會在負責\n農委會或農業部是負責補足對不對但是現在因為農田水稻修改之後所有農田水利會都由中央變成農田水利署的地方管理處這裡我們發現水利署根據農水法去執行如果沒有農用事實沒有灌溉需求的原來的灌溉的勾牌他就不再做灌溉勾了就變成了是由地方政府的區牌來處理是不是這樣子\n對 如果已經不需要做農業灌溉的時候它可以化為都市化 填調或者是變成一個都市裡面的區域所以我們把這些具有排水功能的溝渠交給地方政府因為地方住宅需要嘛所以院長我們有沒有並同預算也給地方政府很多的預算支持讓他們能夠來承擔這樣的工作應該在預算當中地方政府可以運用到這個方向來好但是呢每個地方政府分配的不一樣\n因為分配下來之後像農業縣分配到的比較少但是我們要去負責來處理成績的這些灌溉溝水的排水相對資源少所以很多地方的鄉鎮公所沒有辦法去清淤不能清淤的結果 結果是什麼這個農田我們往下看\n這個農田呢他現在呢他的取水不是透過水利溝來取水他自己打井取水但是農田要排水還是用原來的灌溉溝但是這個灌溉溝已經移給地方政府去做清淤了他不只要排農田的水還要排附近住家的水但是因為呢地方政府他沒有能力財力不足他不去做結果造成了呢住宅的民生水也沒辦法排農田的水也沒辦法排陳部長有沒有地方跟你反映這個問題\n陸續有一些縣市或是鄉鎮有反應這樣的一個問題但是每個個案我們都跟經濟部在處理\n所以我說地方跟中央要共同齊心協力我們的預算已經撥下去你就盡量做但是我覺得中央還是可以來協助一件事情什麼事情其實這些農田它跟民生住宅是混在一起的這些溝渠廢為水利溝之後它作為區域排水地方政府要去維護這沒錯但是事實上我們中央從各級的道路它都有側溝排水\n現在因為道路其實就可以負擔起道路的側溝排水它不能作為灌溉使用農田是不需要依賴側溝來灌溉但是農田跟住宅的排水都可以透過道路的側溝來排放\n陳部長 交通部是不是主管全國各地的道路分級道路的一個規範的設計 工程規範的設計要求是 我們工程設計的規範要求我們的道路排水都是以怎樣 以降水的宣洩為主我把路面的降水排擦就可以了 車庫救護的功能\n但實際上我們現在的測溝排不是只排道路的泄水我們會連同周邊廣大的住宅或農地的積水都要一起排所以它的通紅的斷面它的設計的容量是不是要提高\n目前應該是有提高但是在規範上面我覺得是可以調整的所以我相信請院長指示農業部跟我們的交通部我們設法把農村地區的道路的工程規範的排水的效能把它提高他不只是負責道路的排水他也監助附近這些住宅或農地的排水是不是請我們指示兩位部長把這方面去研議\n我先跟委員報告就是有關於農村地區的這些排水那因為那個水利法跟排水辦法是經濟部主管所以我們也會跟經濟部然後跟交通部一起去看看去重新一個設計我們請國發會的副主委上來也請經濟部的次長準備請陳部長可以先回 謝謝您的支持好 那麼部長你又指示了嘛那農業部長也說了那接下來的國發會這裡很重要\n因為現在發現農業部他負責的設施他的效能不實現於農業而已所以目前農業部報的這些有農村地區相關的水利工程的預算請國科會要支持 院長支不支持謝謝委員 這個建議國科會可以支持 國發會可以支持吧是的好 那麼我們請經營部次長來好 那接下來我談另外一個問題\n下一個問題我們現在談一個問題這次的風災發生了很多電力網故障需要代修的情況是不是 院長你下去親自看了是不是很多的電力網要花很多的人力去修復這很多的事故其實不是特別嚴重就是樹枝殘葉捲到了架空線才一定要耗費人力去排除\n經濟部長 是不是這樣子好 但是我們仔細看了一下為什麼在農村居住地區有那麼多樹呢就是一個平地造林政策農業部陳部長 平地造林有關水土保持嗎沒有嘛有一部分啦平地造林 當年是20年前為什麼推動平地造林\n所以我要加入WTO 為了減少台灣的耕地面積的計算所以我們霸量的農地比較生產力低的我們鼓勵他平地造林 是不是這樣子所以這些造的林啊 它是要零補助的但是正因為它只要零補助\n他不求經濟效益所以平地造林20年來的亂象很多那麼其中包括什麼平地造林周邊地區這些樹疏於整理常常妨礙了道路上的電力的架空線造成台電的負擔何市長是不是這樣子這次的那個風災的停電一部分是因為這個樹枝的部分沒有修剪的部分我當然就屏東縣那個台電的區管處台電區營業處去算\n111年數目構成的就這七件去年更多因為今年的颱風屏東比較沒有那麼嚴重去年的山陀我們很多的台電事故花費人力去做這些市長這些平地造林有三分之一是台塘的地你知道嗎是\n可不可以 院長 請經濟部責任台棠先將他們平地造林的林地周邊有道路 有架空線的優先把他們平地造林的樹木疏伐退縮3到5公尺避免再發生這個情況 可以嗎謝謝委員提醒經濟部應該要求台棠要負起這個責任\n好謝謝所以呢我說與其颱風前去修減樹枝不如把這些沒有經濟效益的平地造林直接退縮疏伐不要再花力氣去維護也不會造成架空線受損市長你支持吧我支持好謝謝請回好來接下來我們要問的就是陳部長了院長其實平地造林不是只有在颱風風災的時候影響到我們的電力供應他也因為他屬於管理\n陳部長你所知道的台灣這些平地造林有實際達到經濟林可以成材銷售獲益的有沒有我跟委員報告整個平地造林現在面積大概有一萬三千五百多公尺台塘占三分之以上然後台塘是一萬零差不多一萬零五百三分之二那其中已經成林而且具有生態價值大概三千八百多公尺你說的是生態價值\n但是現在有700多公頃是可以恢復農業生產或是700多公頃我真的一萬三千公頃有700多萬分農業生產其他的你不做農業生產他也沒有經濟零的效益他有生態棲息的效益但是生態棲息的效益地主沒有享受到我們平地造林20年期滿地主還可以領補助嗎\n沒有了嗎所以沒有林補助的治下這13000多公頃的平地造林他就變成是一個地主爹不娘爺不愛沒有人去管只會造成附近農地農民的公害鼠害蛇害妨礙積水這些害眠部長你瞭解嗎\n我跟委員報告就是一般平地造林很多樹種是20年還是不能砍拔的然後可能還要在10年的部分所以我們有後續的獎勵我們現在沒有要加入WTO了平地造林當時的政策目標卓院長您仔細聽 已經沒有了所以平地造林要整個的去重新盤點退場讓這些原來的農地它是不是可以做農業還是做其他的用途使用好好的來思考一下\n我想我們會遵照委員的一個建議我剛才說的就是不是700公尺是7000公頃左右是可以當作生產跟零下經濟的部分那我們會重新盤點將有一些是不是可以可以把它砍拔以後變成恢復到生產所以何市長再上來我現在就講一個例子講給院長聽現在台積電要在屏東要設廠看中什麼\n看中了我們的台塘的地上面在種什麼 種外銷的毛豆那台塘當然是讓給台積電 請毛豆農另外走啊那毛豆農他沒有地可以種他去問台塘還有哪些地可以種毛豆台塘說很多造林地\n那些造林地其實不是只是台塘的台灣全國的平地造林地都應該用這個思維來思考如果這些地像台塘租給農民種毛豆地如果也可以台積電蓋廠經濟部支持嗎行政院支不支持\n評論支持啊 平衡縣會支持啊但是毛澤東怎麼辦毛澤東要去找其他的地如果這些地是平地造林的地部長是不是應該重新全部盤點平地造林的地如果有已經不適合做造林使用改用其他 不管是其他的使用方式整個來通盤檢討 院長支不支持我覺得通盤檢討的事情\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.147 --> 00:27.907\n主席在場的委員先進列席的政府經濟總統官員會場工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請卓院長跟陳主席長然後請農業部交通部經濟部跟國發會請準備麻煩請卓院長主席總長\n\n00:36.551 --> 00:54.696\n總務委員好院長好主席長好剛才我聽了前面幾位委員尤其在當委員的質詢我也很疑惑院長主席長我來自過去十年前來自地方政府我們過去的地方政府常常辦理追加預算我先請教主席長中央政府行政院常辦理追加預算嗎\n\n00:56.020 --> 01:14.698\n很少辦很少辦理我過去在這10年100年辦一次然後再來就是113年辦台電的追加所以我就認為這10年來我還是第一次遇到但是我在過去地方擔任副縣長期間我們常常辦追加預算為什麼因為地方政府很多是仰仗中央政府的補助或計劃競爭型計劃我們會預算先列\n\n01:18.321 --> 01:45.445\n但是必須中央補助下來的時候我們才辦追加為什麼因為錢沒到我們不能辦發包所以我們對於中央政府准許我們的補助之後我們會馬上辦追加所以地方政府幾乎年度中都會辦追加追加的因為就是等著米下鍋行教院長這次辦理追加的原因是不是中央政府沒有米下鍋需要立法院同意這些追加預算才有辦法繼續施政\n\n01:46.651 --> 02:13.680\n委員這個形容是貼切的跟我說的一樣水庫沒有水支流就沒有水所以必須要水庫的水先把它填滿米要下鍋的意思是相同的那一般的社會認知去年在野黨亂砍中央政府走運算造成我們今年度的施政推動困難地方很多建設無錢可做為了解決這個困境所以由我們韓院長出面用追加預算的方式來解決這個無米可吹的困境是不是這樣\n\n02:15.163 --> 02:22.553\n當初是有談過在總統召集的院紀協商當中韓院長是很好意的提出了這樣的方式\n\n02:23.175 --> 02:49.603\n但是既然這樣的一個追加預算的方法是我們韓院長也提出為了解決過去國會亂砍預算造成施政困難但是又不能夠預算重審所以請行政院以追加的方式來做是不是這樣子是沒錯嗎是好結果我看到前天我們立法院的預算中心說這一次追加預算的從編率過高削弱了立法院的職權我很疑惑\n\n02:50.974 --> 03:20.186\n明明就是立法院亂三三過頭了做不下去了才有院長出面為了解決這個難題請行政院不是用複製的方式提出用追加的預算方式提出簡單講我們行政院買一輛車結果呢立法院審計這邊啊也不要倒車雷達也不要那個衛星定位什麼都不要配備都不要結果連方向都沒有這個車交給你沒辦法開所以呢只好拜託再把這些配備恢復回去這輛車才能開\n\n03:20.925 --> 03:43.084\n是不是這樣子是但是我們也謝謝韓院長的善意那因為我們那個時候到現在各部會執行上發生的困難總要有一段時間去推動那現在收集的各部會所困難的狀況以及這個636億我們才組成這個再加上一些新增事項才有這個878億因為簡單講就是買一輛新車但是有人認為你們新車價格太高\n\n03:43.945 --> 04:12.786\n很多設備都砍掉了結果這個車你開回來發現哇油箱只有5公升根本沒有辦法開遠途所以要求再回去再買一個換個大油箱是不是這樣子所以我是覺得雖然院長在這裡啊院長竟然有這麼好意也應該提醒一下預算中心啊既然這是院長要求用一個補救之道當然重編率很高嘛就是因為亂砍砍就不該砍的才需要透過追加預算回復重編嘛院長你說對嗎\n\n04:13.852 --> 04:36.113\n我們也是依照各部會實際之所需有部會已經刪除的認為他不至於造成重大自在難行也並不在這整個預算的這個追加當中所以啊我很少對我們立法院自己的機關自己的部門批評這個預算中心這篇話為什麼成為新聞因為真的是狗咬人才是新聞\n\n04:37.308 --> 05:06.096\n預算中心辜負了院長解決預算執行困難的好意結果還去批評說預算充電率太高真的就是這個預算中心不上新聞不死心啊非給要我們韓院長難堪不可啊好我們現在來問我們真正重要的議題來我們主委長請回我們請農業部長還有我們的這個交通部長麻煩請農業部交通部備詢來我們現在看一下院長你看一下這張照片\n\n05:07.165 --> 05:25.063\n你認為水汪汪的這裡是什麼東西底下是什麼它是河還是路它應該是一條路而且是淤泥的水是我們農村常見的道路鋪得還不錯但是現在通通是水了為什麼\n\n05:25.845 --> 05:44.764\n因為旁邊的農田水都排到道路上去了本來是路道現在變成河道我們來往下看來陳部長我們來看一下我們農田水利會過去有農田水利會農田水利法過去是農田水利會的時候我們的灌溉排水的溝渠是地方的水利會在負責\n\n05:46.366 --> 06:10.215\n農委會或農業部是負責補足對不對但是現在因為農田水稻修改之後所有農田水利會都由中央變成農田水利署的地方管理處這裡我們發現水利署根據農水法去執行如果沒有農用事實沒有灌溉需求的原來的灌溉的勾牌他就不再做灌溉勾了就變成了是由地方政府的區牌來處理是不是這樣子\n\n06:11.212 --> 06:40.293\n對如果已經不需要做農業灌溉的時候它可以化為都市化填調或者是變成一個都市裡面的區域所以我們把這些具有排水功能的溝渠交給地方政府因為地方住宅需要嘛所以院長我們有沒有並同預算也給地方政府很多的預算支持讓他們能夠來承擔這樣的工作應該在預算當中地方政府可以運用到這個方向來好但是呢每個地方政府分配的不一樣\n\n06:41.240 --> 06:58.211\n因為分配下來之後像農業縣分配到的比較少但是我們要去負責來處理成績的這些灌溉溝水的排水相對資源少所以很多地方的鄉鎮公所沒有辦法去清淤不能清淤的結果結果是什麼這個農田我們往下看\n\n06:59.511 --> 07:28.231\n這個農田呢他現在呢他的取水不是透過水利溝來取水他自己打井取水但是農田要排水還是用原來的灌溉溝但是這個灌溉溝已經移給地方政府去做清淤了他不只要排農田的水還要排附近住家的水但是因為呢地方政府他沒有能力財力不足他不去做結果造成了呢住宅的民生水也沒辦法排農田的水也沒辦法排陳部長有沒有地方跟你反映這個問題\n\n07:30.495 --> 07:35.969\n陸續有一些縣市或是鄉鎮有反應這樣的一個問題但是每個個案我們都跟經濟部在處理\n\n07:37.560 --> 08:02.356\n所以我說地方跟中央要共同齊心協力我們的預算已經撥下去你就盡量做但是我覺得中央還是可以來協助一件事情什麼事情其實這些農田它跟民生住宅是混在一起的這些溝渠廢為水利溝之後它作為區域排水地方政府要去維護這沒錯但是事實上我們中央從各級的道路它都有側溝排水\n\n08:03.076 --> 08:15.662\n現在因為道路其實就可以負擔起道路的側溝排水它不能作為灌溉使用農田是不需要依賴側溝來灌溉但是農田跟住宅的排水都可以透過道路的側溝來排放\n\n08:17.222 --> 08:36.520\n陳部長交通部是不是主管全國各地的道路分級道路的一個規範的設計工程規範的設計要求是我們工程設計的規範要求我們的道路排水都是以怎樣以降水的宣洩為主我把路面的降水排擦就可以了車庫救護的功能\n\n08:36.940 --> 08:49.857\n但實際上我們現在的測溝排不是只排道路的泄水我們會連同周邊廣大的住宅或農地的積水都要一起排所以它的通紅的斷面它的設計的容量是不是要提高\n\n08:50.971 --> 09:14.765\n目前應該是有提高但是在規範上面我覺得是可以調整的所以我相信請院長指示農業部跟我們的交通部我們設法把農村地區的道路的工程規範的排水的效能把它提高他不只是負責道路的排水他也監助附近這些住宅或農地的排水是不是請我們指示兩位部長把這方面去研議\n\n09:16.139 --> 09:42.351\n我先跟委員報告就是有關於農村地區的這些排水那因為那個水利法跟排水辦法是經濟部主管所以我們也會跟經濟部然後跟交通部一起去看看去重新一個設計我們請國發會的副主委上來也請經濟部的次長準備請陳部長可以先回謝謝您的支持好那麼部長你又指示了嘛那農業部長也說了那接下來的國發會這裡很重要\n\n09:43.001 --> 10:05.860\n因為現在發現農業部他負責的設施他的效能不實現於農業而已所以目前農業部報的這些有農村地區相關的水利工程的預算請國科會要支持院長支不支持謝謝委員這個建議國科會可以支持國發會可以支持吧是的好那麼我們請經營部次長來好那接下來我談另外一個問題\n\n10:07.788 --> 10:31.396\n下一個問題我們現在談一個問題這次的風災發生了很多電力網故障需要代修的情況是不是院長你下去親自看了是不是很多的電力網要花很多的人力去修復這很多的事故其實不是特別嚴重就是樹枝殘葉捲到了架空線才一定要耗費人力去排除\n\n10:32.356 --> 10:52.711\n經濟部長是不是這樣子好但是我們仔細看了一下為什麼在農村居住地區有那麼多樹呢就是一個平地造林政策農業部陳部長平地造林有關水土保持嗎沒有嘛有一部分啦平地造林當年是20年前為什麼推動平地造林\n\n10:53.456 --> 11:09.433\n所以我要加入WTO為了減少台灣的耕地面積的計算所以我們霸量的農地比較生產力低的我們鼓勵他平地造林是不是這樣子所以這些造的林啊它是要零補助的但是正因為它只要零補助\n\n11:10.162 --> 11:36.924\n他不求經濟效益所以平地造林20年來的亂象很多那麼其中包括什麼平地造林周邊地區這些樹疏於整理常常妨礙了道路上的電力的架空線造成台電的負擔何市長是不是這樣子這次的那個風災的停電一部分是因為這個樹枝的部分沒有修剪的部分我當然就屏東縣那個台電的區管處台電區營業處去算\n\n11:39.474 --> 11:56.012\n111年數目構成的就這七件去年更多因為今年的颱風屏東比較沒有那麼嚴重去年的山陀我們很多的台電事故花費人力去做這些市長這些平地造林有三分之一是台塘的地你知道嗎是\n\n11:56.633 --> 12:15.125\n可不可以院長請經濟部責任台棠先將他們平地造林的林地周邊有道路有架空線的優先把他們平地造林的樹木疏伐退縮3到5公尺避免再發生這個情況可以嗎謝謝委員提醒經濟部應該要求台棠要負起這個責任\n\n12:16.052 --> 12:43.420\n好謝謝所以呢我說與其颱風前去修減樹枝不如把這些沒有經濟效益的平地造林直接退縮疏伐不要再花力氣去維護也不會造成架空線受損市長你支持吧我支持好謝謝請回好來接下來我們要問的就是陳部長了院長其實平地造林不是只有在颱風風災的時候影響到我們的電力供應他也因為他屬於管理\n\n12:44.722 --> 13:07.468\n陳部長你所知道的台灣這些平地造林有實際達到經濟林可以成材銷售獲益的有沒有我跟委員報告整個平地造林現在面積大概有一萬三千五百多公尺台塘占三分之以上然後台塘是一萬零差不多一萬零五百三分之二那其中已經成林而且具有生態價值大概三千八百多公尺你說的是生態價值\n\n13:08.388 --> 13:29.257\n但是現在有700多公頃是可以恢復農業生產或是700多公頃我真的一萬三千公頃有700多萬分農業生產其他的你不做農業生產他也沒有經濟零的效益他有生態棲息的效益但是生態棲息的效益地主沒有享受到我們平地造林20年期滿地主還可以領補助嗎\n\n13:30.848 --> 13:46.682\n沒有了嗎所以沒有林補助的治下這13000多公頃的平地造林他就變成是一個地主爹不娘爺不愛沒有人去管只會造成附近農地農民的公害鼠害蛇害妨礙積水這些害眠部長你瞭解嗎\n\n13:47.482 --> 14:15.709\n我跟委員報告就是一般平地造林很多樹種是20年還是不能砍拔的然後可能還要在10年的部分所以我們有後續的獎勵我們現在沒有要加入WTO了平地造林當時的政策目標卓院長您仔細聽已經沒有了所以平地造林要整個的去重新盤點退場讓這些原來的農地它是不是可以做農業還是做其他的用途使用好好的來思考一下\n\n14:17.037 --> 14:43.342\n我想我們會遵照委員的一個建議我剛才說的就是不是700公尺是7000公頃左右是可以當作生產跟零下經濟的部分那我們會重新盤點將有一些是不是可以可以把它砍拔以後變成恢復到生產所以何市長再上來我現在就講一個例子講給院長聽現在台積電要在屏東要設廠看中什麼\n\n14:44.059 --> 14:59.123\n看中了我們的台塘的地上面在種什麼種外銷的毛豆那台塘當然是讓給台積電請毛豆農另外走啊那毛豆農他沒有地可以種他去問台塘還有哪些地可以種毛豆台塘說很多造林地\n\n15:00.185 --> 15:16.295\n那些造林地其實不是只是台塘的台灣全國的平地造林地都應該用這個思維來思考如果這些地像台塘租給農民種毛豆地如果也可以台積電蓋廠經濟部支持嗎行政院支不支持\n\n15:18.457 --> 15:40.832\n評論支持啊平衡縣會支持啊但是毛澤東怎麼辦毛澤東要去找其他的地如果這些地是平地造林的地部長是不是應該重新全部盤點平地造林的地如果有已經不適合做造林使用改用其他不管是其他的使用方式整個來通盤檢討院長支不支持我覺得通盤檢討的事情\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.147,"end":27.907,"text":"主席 在場的委員先進列席的政府經濟總統官員會場工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請卓院長跟陳主席長然後請農業部 交通部 經濟部跟國發會請準備麻煩請卓院長 主席總長"},{"start":36.551,"end":54.696,"text":"總務委員好院長好 主席長好剛才我聽了前面幾位委員尤其在當委員的質詢我也很疑惑院長 主席長我來自過去十年前來自地方政府我們過去的地方政府常常辦理追加預算我先請教主席長中央政府行政院常辦理追加預算嗎"},{"start":56.02,"end":74.698,"text":"很少辦很少辦理我過去在這10年100年辦一次然後再來就是113年辦台電的追加所以我就認為這10年來我還是第一次遇到但是我在過去地方擔任副縣長期間我們常常辦追加預算為什麼因為地方政府很多是仰仗中央政府的補助或計劃競爭型計劃我們會預算先列"},{"start":78.321,"end":105.445,"text":"但是必須中央補助下來的時候我們才辦追加為什麼因為錢沒到我們不能辦發包所以我們對於中央政府准許我們的補助之後我們會馬上辦追加所以地方政府幾乎年度中都會辦追加追加的因為就是等著米下鍋行教院長這次辦理追加的原因是不是中央政府沒有米下鍋需要立法院同意這些追加預算才有辦法繼續施政"},{"start":106.651,"end":133.68,"text":"委員這個形容是貼切的 跟我說的一樣水庫沒有水 支流就沒有水所以必須要水庫的水先把它填滿米要下鍋的意思是相同的那一般的社會認知去年在野黨亂砍中央政府走運算造成我們今年度的施政推動困難地方很多建設無錢可做為了解決這個困境所以由我們韓院長出面用追加預算的方式來解決這個無米可吹的困境 是不是這樣"},{"start":135.163,"end":142.553,"text":"當初是有談過在總統召集的院紀協商當中韓院長是很好意的提出了這樣的方式"},{"start":143.175,"end":169.603,"text":"但是既然這樣的一個追加預算的方法是我們韓院長也提出為了解決過去國會亂砍預算造成施政困難但是又不能夠預算重審所以請行政院以追加的方式來做是不是這樣子是沒錯嗎是好結果我看到前天我們立法院的預算中心說這一次追加預算的從編率過高削弱了立法院的職權我很疑惑"},{"start":170.974,"end":200.186,"text":"明明就是立法院亂三三過頭了做不下去了才有院長出面為了解決這個難題請行政院不是用複製的方式提出用追加的預算方式提出簡單講我們行政院買一輛車結果呢立法院審計這邊啊也不要倒車雷達也不要那個衛星定位什麼都不要配備都不要結果連方向都沒有這個車交給你沒辦法開所以呢只好拜託再把這些配備恢復回去這輛車才能開"},{"start":200.925,"end":223.084,"text":"是不是這樣子是 但是我們也謝謝韓院長的善意那因為我們那個時候到現在各部會執行上發生的困難總要有一段時間去推動那現在收集的各部會所困難的狀況以及這個636億我們才組成這個再加上一些新增事項才有這個878億因為簡單講就是買一輛新車但是有人認為你們新車價格太高"},{"start":223.945,"end":252.786,"text":"很多設備都砍掉了結果這個車你開回來發現哇 油箱只有5公升根本沒有辦法開遠途所以要求再回去再買一個換個大油箱 是不是這樣子所以我是覺得雖然院長在這裡啊院長竟然有這麼好意也應該提醒一下預算中心啊既然這是院長要求用一個補救之道當然重編率很高嘛就是因為亂砍 砍就不該砍的才需要透過追加預算回復重編嘛 院長你說對嗎"},{"start":253.852,"end":276.113,"text":"我們也是依照各部會實際之所需有部會已經刪除的認為他不至於造成重大自在難行也並不在這整個預算的這個追加當中所以啊我很少對我們立法院自己的機關自己的部門批評這個預算中心這篇話為什麼成為新聞因為真的是狗咬人才是新聞"},{"start":277.308,"end":306.096,"text":"預算中心辜負了院長解決預算執行困難的好意結果還去批評說預算充電率太高真的就是這個預算中心不上新聞不死心啊非給要我們韓院長難堪不可啊好我們現在來問我們真正重要的議題來我們主委長請回我們請農業部長還有我們的這個交通部長麻煩請農業部交通部備詢來我們現在看一下院長你看一下這張照片"},{"start":307.165,"end":325.063,"text":"你認為水汪汪的這裡是什麼東西底下是什麼它是河還是路它應該是一條路而且是淤泥的水是我們農村常見的道路鋪得還不錯但是現在通通是水了為什麼"},{"start":325.845,"end":344.764,"text":"因為旁邊的農田水都排到道路上去了本來是路道現在變成河道我們來往下看來陳部長我們來看一下我們農田水利會過去有農田水利會農田水利法過去是農田水利會的時候我們的灌溉排水的溝渠是地方的水利會在負責"},{"start":346.366,"end":370.215,"text":"農委會或農業部是負責補足對不對但是現在因為農田水稻修改之後所有農田水利會都由中央變成農田水利署的地方管理處這裡我們發現水利署根據農水法去執行如果沒有農用事實沒有灌溉需求的原來的灌溉的勾牌他就不再做灌溉勾了就變成了是由地方政府的區牌來處理是不是這樣子"},{"start":371.212,"end":400.293,"text":"對 如果已經不需要做農業灌溉的時候它可以化為都市化 填調或者是變成一個都市裡面的區域所以我們把這些具有排水功能的溝渠交給地方政府因為地方住宅需要嘛所以院長我們有沒有並同預算也給地方政府很多的預算支持讓他們能夠來承擔這樣的工作應該在預算當中地方政府可以運用到這個方向來好但是呢每個地方政府分配的不一樣"},{"start":401.24,"end":418.211,"text":"因為分配下來之後像農業縣分配到的比較少但是我們要去負責來處理成績的這些灌溉溝水的排水相對資源少所以很多地方的鄉鎮公所沒有辦法去清淤不能清淤的結果 結果是什麼這個農田我們往下看"},{"start":419.511,"end":448.231,"text":"這個農田呢他現在呢他的取水不是透過水利溝來取水他自己打井取水但是農田要排水還是用原來的灌溉溝但是這個灌溉溝已經移給地方政府去做清淤了他不只要排農田的水還要排附近住家的水但是因為呢地方政府他沒有能力財力不足他不去做結果造成了呢住宅的民生水也沒辦法排農田的水也沒辦法排陳部長有沒有地方跟你反映這個問題"},{"start":450.495,"end":455.969,"text":"陸續有一些縣市或是鄉鎮有反應這樣的一個問題但是每個個案我們都跟經濟部在處理"},{"start":457.56,"end":482.356,"text":"所以我說地方跟中央要共同齊心協力我們的預算已經撥下去你就盡量做但是我覺得中央還是可以來協助一件事情什麼事情其實這些農田它跟民生住宅是混在一起的這些溝渠廢為水利溝之後它作為區域排水地方政府要去維護這沒錯但是事實上我們中央從各級的道路它都有側溝排水"},{"start":483.076,"end":495.662,"text":"現在因為道路其實就可以負擔起道路的側溝排水它不能作為灌溉使用農田是不需要依賴側溝來灌溉但是農田跟住宅的排水都可以透過道路的側溝來排放"},{"start":497.222,"end":516.52,"text":"陳部長 交通部是不是主管全國各地的道路分級道路的一個規範的設計 工程規範的設計要求是 我們工程設計的規範要求我們的道路排水都是以怎樣 以降水的宣洩為主我把路面的降水排擦就可以了 車庫救護的功能"},{"start":516.94,"end":529.857,"text":"但實際上我們現在的測溝排不是只排道路的泄水我們會連同周邊廣大的住宅或農地的積水都要一起排所以它的通紅的斷面它的設計的容量是不是要提高"},{"start":530.971,"end":554.765,"text":"目前應該是有提高但是在規範上面我覺得是可以調整的所以我相信請院長指示農業部跟我們的交通部我們設法把農村地區的道路的工程規範的排水的效能把它提高他不只是負責道路的排水他也監助附近這些住宅或農地的排水是不是請我們指示兩位部長把這方面去研議"},{"start":556.139,"end":582.351,"text":"我先跟委員報告就是有關於農村地區的這些排水那因為那個水利法跟排水辦法是經濟部主管所以我們也會跟經濟部然後跟交通部一起去看看去重新一個設計我們請國發會的副主委上來也請經濟部的次長準備請陳部長可以先回 謝謝您的支持好 那麼部長你又指示了嘛那農業部長也說了那接下來的國發會這裡很重要"},{"start":583.001,"end":605.86,"text":"因為現在發現農業部他負責的設施他的效能不實現於農業而已所以目前農業部報的這些有農村地區相關的水利工程的預算請國科會要支持 院長支不支持謝謝委員 這個建議國科會可以支持 國發會可以支持吧是的好 那麼我們請經營部次長來好 那接下來我談另外一個問題"},{"start":607.788,"end":631.396,"text":"下一個問題我們現在談一個問題這次的風災發生了很多電力網故障需要代修的情況是不是 院長你下去親自看了是不是很多的電力網要花很多的人力去修復這很多的事故其實不是特別嚴重就是樹枝殘葉捲到了架空線才一定要耗費人力去排除"},{"start":632.356,"end":652.711,"text":"經濟部長 是不是這樣子好 但是我們仔細看了一下為什麼在農村居住地區有那麼多樹呢就是一個平地造林政策農業部陳部長 平地造林有關水土保持嗎沒有嘛有一部分啦平地造林 當年是20年前為什麼推動平地造林"},{"start":653.456,"end":669.433,"text":"所以我要加入WTO 為了減少台灣的耕地面積的計算所以我們霸量的農地比較生產力低的我們鼓勵他平地造林 是不是這樣子所以這些造的林啊 它是要零補助的但是正因為它只要零補助"},{"start":670.162,"end":696.924,"text":"他不求經濟效益所以平地造林20年來的亂象很多那麼其中包括什麼平地造林周邊地區這些樹疏於整理常常妨礙了道路上的電力的架空線造成台電的負擔何市長是不是這樣子這次的那個風災的停電一部分是因為這個樹枝的部分沒有修剪的部分我當然就屏東縣那個台電的區管處台電區營業處去算"},{"start":699.474,"end":716.012,"text":"111年數目構成的就這七件去年更多因為今年的颱風屏東比較沒有那麼嚴重去年的山陀我們很多的台電事故花費人力去做這些市長這些平地造林有三分之一是台塘的地你知道嗎是"},{"start":716.633,"end":735.125,"text":"可不可以 院長 請經濟部責任台棠先將他們平地造林的林地周邊有道路 有架空線的優先把他們平地造林的樹木疏伐退縮3到5公尺避免再發生這個情況 可以嗎謝謝委員提醒經濟部應該要求台棠要負起這個責任"},{"start":736.052,"end":763.42,"text":"好謝謝所以呢我說與其颱風前去修減樹枝不如把這些沒有經濟效益的平地造林直接退縮疏伐不要再花力氣去維護也不會造成架空線受損市長你支持吧我支持好謝謝請回好來接下來我們要問的就是陳部長了院長其實平地造林不是只有在颱風風災的時候影響到我們的電力供應他也因為他屬於管理"},{"start":764.722,"end":787.468,"text":"陳部長你所知道的台灣這些平地造林有實際達到經濟林可以成材銷售獲益的有沒有我跟委員報告整個平地造林現在面積大概有一萬三千五百多公尺台塘占三分之以上然後台塘是一萬零差不多一萬零五百三分之二那其中已經成林而且具有生態價值大概三千八百多公尺你說的是生態價值"},{"start":788.388,"end":809.257,"text":"但是現在有700多公頃是可以恢復農業生產或是700多公頃我真的一萬三千公頃有700多萬分農業生產其他的你不做農業生產他也沒有經濟零的效益他有生態棲息的效益但是生態棲息的效益地主沒有享受到我們平地造林20年期滿地主還可以領補助嗎"},{"start":810.848,"end":826.682,"text":"沒有了嗎所以沒有林補助的治下這13000多公頃的平地造林他就變成是一個地主爹不娘爺不愛沒有人去管只會造成附近農地農民的公害鼠害蛇害妨礙積水這些害眠部長你瞭解嗎"},{"start":827.482,"end":855.709,"text":"我跟委員報告就是一般平地造林很多樹種是20年還是不能砍拔的然後可能還要在10年的部分所以我們有後續的獎勵我們現在沒有要加入WTO了平地造林當時的政策目標卓院長您仔細聽 已經沒有了所以平地造林要整個的去重新盤點退場讓這些原來的農地它是不是可以做農業還是做其他的用途使用好好的來思考一下"},{"start":857.037,"end":883.342,"text":"我想我們會遵照委員的一個建議我剛才說的就是不是700公尺是7000公頃左右是可以當作生產跟零下經濟的部分那我們會重新盤點將有一些是不是可以可以把它砍拔以後變成恢復到生產所以何市長再上來我現在就講一個例子講給院長聽現在台積電要在屏東要設廠看中什麼"},{"start":884.059,"end":899.123,"text":"看中了我們的台塘的地上面在種什麼 種外銷的毛豆那台塘當然是讓給台積電 請毛豆農另外走啊那毛豆農他沒有地可以種他去問台塘還有哪些地可以種毛豆台塘說很多造林地"},{"start":900.185,"end":916.295,"text":"那些造林地其實不是只是台塘的台灣全國的平地造林地都應該用這個思維來思考如果這些地像台塘租給農民種毛豆地如果也可以台積電蓋廠經濟部支持嗎行政院支不支持"},{"start":918.457,"end":940.832,"text":"評論支持啊 平衡縣會支持啊但是毛澤東怎麼辦毛澤東要去找其他的地如果這些地是平地造林的地部長是不是應該重新全部盤點平地造林的地如果有已經不適合做造林使用改用其他 不管是其他的使用方式整個來通盤檢討 院長支不支持我覺得通盤檢討的事情"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":603,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時23分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長及官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請卓院長跟陳主計長，農業部、交通部、經濟部跟國發會請準備。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長、主計長。"],["卓院長榮泰：鍾委員好。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：院長好、主計長好。剛才我聽了前面幾位委員，尤其在野黨委員的質詢，我也很疑惑。院長、主計長，我過去10年前來自地方政府，在過去地方政府常常辦理追加預算，我先請教主計長，中央政府、行政院常辦理追加預算嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：很少辦。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很少辦理嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我過去在這10年……"],["陳主計長淑姿：100年辦一次，再來就是113年辦台電的追加，但是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，我就任立委這10年來，我還是第一次遇到，但是過去我在地方擔任副縣長期間，我們常常辦追加預算，為什麼？因為地方政府很多是仰仗中央政府的補助或競爭型計畫，我們會預算先列，但是必須中央補助下來的時候，我們才辦追加，為什麼？因為錢沒到，我們不能辦發包，所以我們對於中央政府准許我們的補助之後，我們會馬上辦追加，所以地方政府幾乎年度中都會辦追加，追加的原因就是等著米下鍋。請教院長，這次辦理追加的原因是不是中央政府沒有米下鍋，需要立法院同意這些追加預算才有辦法繼續施政？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員這個形容是貼切的，跟我說的一樣，水庫沒有水，支流就沒有水，所以必須要先把水庫的水填滿，跟米要下鍋的意思是相同的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：一般的社會認知，去年在野黨亂砍中央政府總預算，造成我們今年度的施政推動困難，地方很多建設無錢可做，為了解決這個困境，所以由我們韓院長出面用追加預算的方式來解決這個無米可炊的困境，是不是這樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：當初是有談過，在總統召集的院際協商當中，韓院長是很好意的提出了這樣的方式。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這樣的追加預算方法是由我們韓院長提出，是為了解決過去國會亂砍預算造成的施政困難，但因為預算不能夠重審，所以請行政院以追加的方式來做，是不是這樣子？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒錯嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：結果我看到前天我們立法院的預算中心說這一次追加預算的重編率過高，削弱了立法院的職權，我很疑惑啊，明明就是立法院亂刪刪過頭了，做不下去了，才由院長出面，為了解決這個難題，請行政院不用覆議的方式提出，用追加預算的方式提出，簡單講，行政院要買一輛車，結果立法院審計這邊也不要倒車雷達，也不要衛星定位，什麼配備都不要，結果連方向燈都沒有，這個車交給你，沒辦法開，所以只好拜託再把這些配備恢復回去，這輛車才能開，是不是這樣子？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，但是我們也謝謝韓院長的善意，因為我們從那個時候到現在，各部會執行上發生的困難，總要有一段時間去推動，現在蒐集了各部會困難的狀況，以及636億的部分，我們才組成這個部分，再加上一些新增事項，才有這個878億，我也要謝謝韓院長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以簡單講，就是先買了一輛新車，但是有人認為你們新車價格太高，很多設備都砍掉了，結果這個車你開回來發現油箱只有5公升，根本沒有辦法開遠途，所以要求再回去換一個大油箱，是不是這樣子？"],["卓院長榮泰：類似。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以我是覺得，雖然院長在這裡，院長既然有這麼好意，也應該提醒一下預算中心啊，既然是院長要求用這樣的補救之道，當然重編率很高嘛，就是因為亂砍、砍掉不該砍的，才需要透過追加預算回復重編嘛，院長，您說對嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們也是依照各部會實際之所需，有部分已經刪除的，認為不至於造成重大窒礙難行，也並不在這整個的預算追加當中。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我很少對我們立法院自己的機關、自己的部門批評，預算中心這篇話為什麼成為新聞？因為真的是狗咬人才是新聞，預算中心辜負了院長解決預算執行困難的好意，結果還去批評預算重編率太高，真的就是這個預算中心不上新聞不死心，非得要我們韓院長難堪不可。","我們現在來問真正重要的議題，主計長請回，我們請農業部長還有交通部長。"],["主席：麻煩請農業部、交通部備詢。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們先來看一下，院長，你看一下這張照片，你認為水汪汪的這裡是什麼東西，底下是什麼？它是河還是路？"],["卓院長榮泰：它應該是一條路，而且是淤泥的水，把路都淹漫掉了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，是我們農村常見的道路，鋪得還不錯，但是現在通通是水了，為什麼？因為旁邊農田的水都排到道路上去了，本來是路道，現在變成河道。","我們來往下看，陳部長，我們來看一下，在過去是農田水利會的時候，這個灌溉排水的溝渠是地方的水利會在負責，農委會或農業部是負責補助，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是在農田水利法施行修改之後，所有的農田水利會都由中央變成農田水利署的地方管理處，我們發現水利署根據農水法去執行，如果沒有農用事實、沒有灌溉需求的，原來灌溉的溝排就不再做灌溉溝了，就變成是由地方政府的區排來處理，是不是這樣子？"],["陳部長駿季：對，如果已經不需要做農業灌溉的時候，可以都市化而填掉，或者是變成一個都市裡面的區排。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，所以我們把這些只具有排水功能的溝渠交給地方政府，因為地方住宅需要嘛。院長，我們有沒有併同預算，也給地方政府很多的預算支持，讓他們能夠來承擔這樣的工作？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該在預算當中，地方政府可以運用到這個方向。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是每個地方政府分配到的不一樣，因為分配下來之後，像農業縣分配到的比較少，但是我們要去負責來處理承繼的這些灌溉溝渠的排水，相對資源少，所以很多地方的鄉鎮公所沒有辦法去清淤，不能清淤的結果是什麼？我們往下看，這個農田現在的取水不是透過水利溝來取水，它自己打井取水，而農田要排水還是用原來的灌溉溝，但是這個灌溉溝已經移給地方政府去做清淤了，它不只要排農田的水，還要排附近住家的水，但是因為地方政府沒有能力，它財力不足，所以它不去做，結果造成了住宅的民生廢水也沒辦法排，農田的水也沒辦法排。陳部長，有沒有地方跟你反映這個問題？"],["陳部長駿季：陸續有一些縣市或者鄉鎮有反映這樣的問題，但是每個個案我們都跟經濟部在處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。所以我說地方跟中央要共同齊心協力，我們的預算已經撥下去，你就儘量做，但是我覺得中央還是可以來協助一件事情，什麼事情？其實這些農田跟民生住宅是混在一起的，這些溝渠變為水利溝之後，它作為區域排水，地方政府要去維護這沒錯，但是事實上我們中央各級的道路都有側溝排水，這些道路其實就可以負擔起……道路的側溝排水不能作為灌溉使用，農田不需要依賴側溝來灌溉，但是農田跟住宅的排水都可以透過道路的側溝來排放。陳部長，交通部是不是主管全國各地分級道路的工程規範設計要求？"],["陳部長世凱：規範是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們工程設計的規範要求，我們的道路排水都是以降水的宣洩為主，我把路面的降水排掉就可以了，側溝就負責這個功能，但實際上我們現在的側溝不是只排道路的洩水，我們會連同周邊廣大的住宅或農地的積水都要一起排，所以它的通洪斷面、它的設計容量是不是要提高？"],["陳部長世凱：目前應該是有提高，但是在規範上面，我覺得是可以調整的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以請院長指示農業部跟我們的交通部，我們設法把農村地區道路工程規範的排水效能提高，它不只是負責道路的排水，它也肩負附近這些住宅或農地的排水，是不是指示兩位部長就這方面去研議？"],["陳部長駿季：我先跟委員報告，有關於農村地區的這些排水，因為水利法跟排水辦法是經濟部主管，所以我們也會跟經濟部，然後跟交通部一起去重新設計。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。我們請國發會的副主委上來，也請經濟部的次長準備，請陳部長可以先回，謝謝您的支持。","好，對部長你有指示了，那農業部長也說了，接下來國發會這裡很重要，因為現在發現農業部負責的設施，它的效能不只限於農業而已，所以目前農業部報的這些農村地區相關的水利工程預算，請國發會要支持，院長支不支持？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員這個建議。"],["鍾委員佳濱：國發會可以支持吧？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。我們請經濟部次長。","接下來我談另外一個問題，這次的風災發生很多電力網故障待修的情況，是不是？院長你下去親自看了嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是很多的電力網要花很多的人力去修復？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很多的事故其實不是特別嚴重，就是樹枝殘葉捲到了架空線，台電要耗費人力去排除。經濟部次長，是不是這樣子？"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。但是我們仔細看了一下，為什麼在農村居住地區有那麼多樹呢？就是因為平地造林政策。農業部陳部長，平地造林有關水土保持嗎？沒有嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：有一部分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：平地造林當年……20年前為什麼推動平地造林？是因為要加入WTO……"],["陳部長駿季：WTO的部分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：為了減少臺灣耕地面積的計算，所以我們對大量的農地，生產力比較低的，我們鼓勵平地造林，是不是這樣子？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以這些造的林是要領補助的，但是正因為它只要領補助，它不求經濟效益，所以平地造林20年來的亂象很多，其中包括什麼？平地造林周邊地區，這些樹疏於整理，常常妨礙了道路上電力的架空線，造成台電的負擔，何次長，是不是這樣子？"],["何次長晉滄：這次風災的停電，一部分是因為樹枝的部分沒有修剪，會影響到……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我單單就屏東縣台電的營業處去算，111年樹木造成的就是7件，去年更多，因為今年颱風對屏東的影響比較沒有那麼嚴重，去年的山陀兒讓很多台電的事故而要花費人力去做這些事。","次長，這些平地造林有三分之一是台糖的地，您知道嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：院長可不可以請經濟部責成台糖，先將他們平地造林的林地，周邊有道路、有架空線的優先把那些樹木疏伐退縮3到5公尺，避免再發生這樣的情況，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員提醒，經濟部應該要求台糖負起這個責任。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。所以我說，與其颱風前去修剪樹枝，不如把這些沒有經濟效益的平地造林直接退縮疏伐，不要再花力氣去維護，也不會造成架空線受損。次長，你支持吧？"],["何次長晉滄：我支持。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝，請回，接下來我要問的就是陳部長了。院長，其實平地造林不是只有在颱風風災的時候會影響到我們的電力供應，也因為它疏於管理……陳部長，就你所知道的，臺灣的這些平地造林有實際達到經濟林，可以成材、銷售、獲益的，有沒有？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，現在整個平地造林的面積大概有一萬三千五百多公頃。"],["鍾委員佳濱：台糖占三分之一以上嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：台糖差不多有一萬零五百公頃……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不對，是占到三分之二以上。"],["陳部長駿季：有三分之二。其中已經成林，而且具有生態價值的大概有三千八百多公頃。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你說的是生態價值，但是……"],["陳部長駿季：現在有七百多公頃是可以恢復農業生產，或是林下經濟……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有七百多公頃啊！我真的是……1萬3,000公頃，有七百多公頃可以恢復農業生產，其他的不做農業生產，也沒有經濟林的效益。它雖有生態棲息的效益，但是生態棲息的效益地主沒有享受到，平地造林20年期滿，地主還可以領補助嗎？沒有了嘛！在沒領補助之下，這一萬三千多公頃的平地造林就變成是一個地主爹不疼、娘不愛、沒有人去管，只會造成附近農地農民的公害、鼠害、蛇害、妨礙積水等這些危害。部長，你了解嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，一般平地造林，很多樹種種了20年還是不能砍伐，可能還要再等10年，所以我們有後續的獎勵。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那是不是要考慮退場了？我們現在沒要加入WTO了，請卓院長仔細聽，平地造林當時的政策目標已經沒有了，所以平地造林要整個去重新盤點、退場，看是不是可以讓這些原來的農地去做農業，還是作其他的用途使用，請好好地思考一下。"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們會遵照委員的建議，我剛才說的不是700公頃，而是有7,000公頃左右是可以當作生產跟林下經濟的部分……"],["鍾委員佳濱：請何次長再上台一下。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會重新盤點，有些看是不是可以在砍伐以後恢復成農業生產。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請何次長再上來，我現在就講一個例子給院長聽。現在台積電要在屏東設廠，是看中什麼？是看中了我們台糖的地。上面在種什麼？是種外銷的毛豆。台糖當然是讓給台積電，請毛豆農另外找地，毛豆農沒有地可以種就去問台糖還有哪些地可以種毛豆？台糖說有很多造林地，那些造林地其實不只是台糖有，臺灣全國的平地造林地都應該用這個思維來思考。如果這些地就像台糖租給農民種毛豆的地也可以給台積電去蓋廠，經濟部支持嗎？行政院支不支持？行政院支持啊！我屏東縣我也支持啊！但是毛豆農怎麼辦？毛豆農要去找其他的地，如果這些地是平地造林的地，部長，平地造林的地是不是應該重新全部盤點？如果是已不適合做造林使用，就要改成其他的使用方式，因此要整個來通盤檢討，院長支不支持？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得通盤檢討的事情，早一天開始做會比較符合我們現在實際所需。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。那就先從台糖、台電做起，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長的備詢。","接下來休息10分鐘，10分鐘之後請許宇甄委員準備質詢。","休息（10時39分）","繼續開會（10時50分）"],["主席：報告院會，現在繼續開會。","接下來請許宇甄委員質詢，陳亭妃委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":215,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["韓國瑜","王鴻薇","張啓楷","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","許宇甄","陳亭妃","賴士葆","賴惠員","翁曉玲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":159,"meetingDate":["2025-08-26"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長及相關部會首長列席報告「114年度中央政府總預算追加預算\n案」編製經過並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00004"}}}