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0.888}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"首\", \"start\": 929.034, \"end\": 929.275, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 929.275, \"end\": 929.295, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"備\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,049 --> 00:00:00,549\n謝謝主席院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n\n2\n00:00:22,293 --> 00:00:43,100\n委員長好辛苦了我查了一下歷年來如果是風災的災後重建特別條例有兩個一個是16年前2009年的莫拉克風災另外一個就是我們剛剛完成三堵的丹納斯紀728豪雨的災後重建特別條例\n\n3\n00:00:44,318 --> 00:00:54,091\n院長您可以看一下我有準備PPT這上頭有許多的照片第一個就是我們回看2009年的莫拉克風災當時\n\n4\n00:00:56,192 --> 00:01:16,587\n我們在媒體上先看到被披露的是關於林邊鄉海邊那個地方淹大水包括漁溫都沒有了但是我們也看到這一次在丹納斯728豪雨同樣的嘉南地區就是淹大水有很多因為強風的關係民宅屋頂被掀開慘不忍睹\n\n5\n00:01:21,391 --> 00:01:46,758\n那我們再回看當時的山區的災況可以看到也是非常的慘烈但是是隔了一個禮拜之後慢慢慢慢那個畫面才傳出來我們才曉得說原來莫納科造成這麼大的災害於是開啟了這個重建條例那我們現在來看現在這一次的這個風災它所造成的災害其實也差不多\n\n6\n00:01:47,518 --> 00:02:15,574\n那樣的畫面呢重複當年的一個景象山坡竟然部落可以淹大水路斷掉土石流呢進房子我們也可以看到有很多的地方是地基掏空那其實從嘉義阿里山到高雄所有的原鄉屏東台東有災害的原鄉我大概都利用我的空檔我陸陸續續都去過那我很難過的就是我親眼看到\n\n7\n00:02:17,114 --> 00:02:25,119\n這樣的一個造成部落的路段這些衛生所的主任他們要背著藥材他們要去\n\n8\n00:02:26,414 --> 00:02:50,505\n我也看到我們這些災民看到我來就會抱著我哭好像看到救星我也看到這一些工程人員我只不過輕輕的跟他們說辛苦了喔他們就忍不住面對我掉下眼淚所以我可以感受得到大家的壓力非常的大但是我要講的是今天主委在這邊\n\n9\n00:02:51,727 --> 00:03:08,161\n其實從莫拉克風災之後經歷16年有太多的災害至今根本無人聞聞就算計畫提報了都被放生所以我們當時看到莫拉克重建條例有1200億的規模\n\n10\n00:03:10,143 --> 00:03:24,704\n民間投入260億如果用物價指數去轉換大概現在是1800億那民間的投入大概四五百億我們這一次丹納斯原本是560億我個人的版本是提到600億為什麼\n\n11\n00:03:26,647 --> 00:03:46,585\n因為我知道山區災害復原的狀況絕對不是這樣的錢就可以處理的來的甚至我也關心到有一些村呢他這些年一直重複治災但是再也沒有人關心他們到底要不要遷村要搬到哪裡要如何安置\n\n12\n00:03:47,225 --> 00:04:11,239\n所以我自己的版本裡面我也希望能夠做法律授權的謙遜但是很可惜就是沒有被處理到可是我要請院長看一下我其實想要提的是這些年的原鄉很可憐我們看一下不論是一般的縣市或者是六都一般的縣市要仰賴中央補助這些鄉公所大概都要到五成六成以上\n\n13\n00:04:12,159 --> 00:04:35,269\n那些六都的園區更恐怖他要仰賴中央甚至高達九成可是我們的才化法修法之後我不斷的呼籲過去是我爸媽不疼我我跟中央的爺爺奶奶要可是現在爺爺奶奶告訴我你的錢我已經給你爸爸媽媽了可是爸爸媽媽依然不愛我我們園鄉怎麼辦\n\n14\n00:04:37,213 --> 00:04:51,618\n我們就因為人口少我們沒有可以依賴的長輩所以呢我請院長你感受一下這個照片這個是2009年莫拉科的時候這個是高雄茂林區的萬山部落\n\n15\n00:04:52,518 --> 00:05:16,086\n你看那一大片的大崩塌他們沒有被遷村每一年我去查了中央就給他們兩百萬五百萬做邊坡那一些邊坡的住戶啊非常非常的惶恐特別是莫拉克之後所有土石流淺市區動不動災害應變中心一成立相公所就要大家撤村\n\n16\n00:05:16,866 --> 00:05:45,776\n很多是無法動談癱瘓的老人家他們都說我就寧可死在這裡拜託不要讓我們去撤村不要讓我們安置大家非常的痛苦苦不堪言可是你看我當了立委我幫他們兩期爭取到水利署每一期不到五千萬你看一個不到一億的工程他們的居民非常的高興\n\n17\n00:05:47,233 --> 00:06:08,656\n你再看一下這個是竹尾的原鄉這個山地門鄉是屏東最大的原鄉他們本來有自來水系統但是莫拉克風災把路弄斷了之後這16年來他供應的山地村德文村達萊村都要自己去接水源\n\n18\n00:06:10,131 --> 00:06:27,101\n我很感動那時候我跑去找公共工程委員會的主委吳哲成政委他講了一句話我很感動他說如果我們把武藝投入在台北市連個波浪都看不到但是如果我們可以投入在原鄉就可以掀起美麗的波瀾\n\n19\n00:06:28,607 --> 00:06:55,813\n雖然還沒有完工但是我很感謝我現在要跟院長說的是很多原鄉的災害排不到年度預算排不到災害預備金也等不到特別統計條例就這麼樣一直擱著如果是南橫他因為要通到台東他是重要的工程我們可以看到這十幾年來政府投入幾百億重複治災我們是不是要思考一下工程該怎麼做\n\n20\n00:06:56,892 --> 00:07:21,965\n我給我們的院長你看一下這個畫面是在高雄復興禮這是里長他好高興那時候連日豪雨通訊都已經斷了他到有通訊的地方傳照片給我他說委員謝謝你因為我在3月去那個地方衛商他跟議員看到我趕快來跟我澄清說這次的汛期我們第30一定會滅村\n\n21\n00:07:24,107 --> 00:07:48,672\n果然他說拜託給我做那個第二層護岸我趕快找我們的水保署第二層護岸做起來他好高興果不其然跟他的想法一樣這一次花了三個月馬上蓋起來的第二層護岸保護了我們所有的第三齡住戶那我也給院長看一下這個畫面這個畫面地基掏空啊\n\n22\n00:07:49,810 --> 00:08:10,670\n這不是部落的錯所有的部落都有這樣的問題其實我們很清楚知道這些年原鄉不是合法建地我們很難爭取政府的經費根本沒有給我們做排水幾十年來這個都是因為沒有排水設施水就地下浸流亂竄就造成地基掏空原鄉處處可見\n\n23\n00:08:12,722 --> 00:08:32,236\n因為沒有排我們做部落的排水的這樣的一個經費那我們原住民好不容易等到的國土計劃法本來今年的5月1號開始我們可以申請結果呢大家又透過表決把它延後6年到120年我們原鄉這6年又要繼續這樣的一個窘境\n\n24\n00:08:33,547 --> 00:08:57,265\n我給院長看一個影片在屏東獅子鄉有一個很裡面的部落叫做找不到的部落他們的村長那個時候726豪宇很驕傲的傳這個影片給我看這邊在山多爾颱風去年的山多爾颱風的時候這邊的洪水以及土石流流到部落流到部落流到路面而且有低\n\n25\n00:08:57,904 --> 00:09:13,743\n地區比較低的地方都往那個住宅方向所以這次假了那麼多天已經將近要一個禮拜當中都還看不到任何有什麼堵石流有什麼水通到馬路後就這樣乾乾淨淨因為真的是非常感謝\n\n26\n00:09:14,924 --> 00:09:34,138\n吳委員吳立華能夠幫我們改善這個事之後能夠看見這樣的他的用心院長我是故意放的他應該不用感謝吳委員吳立華他應該感謝政府應該感謝我們的水保單位委員我們跟你說明一下因為你說這個風災的問題我們下午會有個專報裡面我們這次的600億的特別預算當中屬於園民會小館\n\n27\n00:09:41,323 --> 00:10:07,876\n相關的經費有45億但是可能要扣除那些福利啊什麼能夠到建設的可能很少有在編這個部分我就是要訴求這個那我再看一個簡單的圖片這個也是春日鄉的一個村長他是深藍的但是他好開心為什麼這個工程不過才不到100萬他告訴我說委員這邊年年淹水不對啦要在上面做節水\n\n28\n00:10:08,456 --> 00:10:28,243\n一個不到一百萬的工程他說這一次的豪雨連日豪雨他說完全沒有淹水他非常的高興這個是信義鄉信義鄉的一個村長李市長他也是傳照片給我他說這一次的連日豪雨他們部落沒有土石流進來了再看一個圖片這個是春日鄉有一個電塔\n\n29\n00:10:29,823 --> 00:10:47,551\n當時110年我去會刊112年完工這一次他們也告訴我說好好喔路面乾乾淨淨這一次自栽的獅子鄉院長你知道這個嗎這是一個教會有很多民宅我受理四五年了我找什麼單位都不行為什麼因為公務單位說\n\n30\n00:10:50,247 --> 00:11:14,725\n這個是私人的黨土牆私人的土地不能用政府的錢做他是水保義務人就直到現在看到這樣的一個災況可能爆災也不過因為說沒有結構物說那個結構物是私人教會的黨土牆好現在我們再看一個這是花蓮的秀林鄉的文藍村你看密密麻麻的陳情書跟我陳情他們說這個問題已經10多年了沒有改善\n\n31\n00:11:15,606 --> 00:11:31,742\n但是他們確實不斷不斷的遭受崩塌甚至有一個人在那邊說我就在這邊等死算了政府都不管我可是我拜託我們的政府單位不到五千萬的工程你看那個照片做好了他們很開心\n\n32\n00:11:32,463 --> 00:12:00,597\n我要說的是其實強降雨是未來的氣候趨勢那我們中央也有一個災防的匯報我也看到這些年來20多年來它平均一年開兩次很多2002年的提案呢2014年還在重複的提案所以我還是要回到那句話原鄉很多的災損排不到年度預算排不到災害預備金也等不到重建條例所以我請院長是不是可以支持就是您剛剛已經\n\n33\n00:12:01,638 --> 00:12:31,028\n告訴我們我很安心就是考量原鄉地區的受災情形有這種等不到排不到的狀況是不是可以編列立刻做全部部落的排水的一個治水工程還有呢需要簽件的我們重新關心他因為這次的重建條例我這一條並沒有去三讀通過那我希望有一個專案的經費那也懇請院長能夠成立一個具有災害防救實權又有跨部會協調能力的一個\n\n34\n00:12:31,509 --> 00:12:31,931\n災防專責單位來院長請\n\n35\n00:12:35,339 --> 00:13:01,390\n可不可以我跟委員報告一下我跟委員報告我們在重建條例裡面光我們研擬會就編了45.5億多的經費這裡面也有部落的聯絡道橋樑基礎設施還有水利設施等等剛剛那個畫面你有提到大蛇部落我想你跟我都是大蛇部落的小孩子我有跟自救會在上上禮拜就跟他們直接談\n\n36\n00:13:02,210 --> 00:13:16,570\n因為除了那個聯絡道路你們講是專六線其實現在它還是線的聯絡道那我們跟縣政府一起但是我們會裡面要做的是部落裡面的一些排水設施還有它攤下來的那個地方未來這幾戶\n\n37\n00:13:18,132 --> 00:13:41,897\n要怎麼樣來協助他們我們直接跟他們有做溝通我想他們需要什麼我們做得到的其實在這個重建條例一通過之後我們立刻就來做到時候再請委員一起來協助主委還有院長我只是要轉達我們不是個案來看我們有多少的成年老案還在那邊等待政府關愛的眼神\n\n38\n00:13:42,617 --> 00:14:07,065\n那莫拉克風災這樣的一個金額都沒有辦法處理完更何況這次丹納斯的600億還包括很多社福的經費等等所以是絕對沒有辦法處理好所以我才會說拜託院長是不是能夠考量原鄉的狀況一方面能夠有特別的處理的經費二方面也希望未來能夠有一個專責單位\n\n39\n00:14:09,259 --> 00:14:17,686\n防水治水的經費我們除了長年性的經費之外我們明年開始有四年一千億的縣市館河川我會請經濟部來\n\n40\n00:14:20,058 --> 00:14:42,734\n評估各地的優先順序是不是原鄉部落有特別的需求那他不整治好影響到下游這個對我們整治工程是一大的妨礙我會請經濟部在明年開始能夠全新的去檢討規劃院長也提醒您其實我們的三個水保單位以納瑪夏來講\n\n41\n00:14:44,415 --> 00:15:03,434\n其實現在的河川河流的界定定義已經不同於幾十年前該做討論了他們的權責的一個分數像他們分到的幾乎全部五分之四的河段都是水保單位但是水保單位要做護岸的錢沒有啊可是相對於桃園\n\n42\n00:15:04,335 --> 00:15:24,753\n他們大部分都是屬於河川署的那河川署有很多做護岸的錢啊所以兩鄉的治水就完全不一樣所以我覺得這個部分都要全面的重新來檢討我請農業部經濟部分別來討論那麼因為這次我們在這個前進指揮所曾經的政委處理得很好我請他也能來督導\n\n43\n00:15:28,072 --> 00:15:29,295\n好謝謝吳麗華委員持續謝謝卓院長相關部會首長的備詢謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n49\t549\t謝謝主席 院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n22293\t43100\t委員長好 辛苦了我查了一下歷年來如果是風災的災後重建特別條例有兩個一個是16年前2009年的莫拉克風災另外一個就是我們剛剛完成三堵的丹納斯紀728豪雨的災後重建特別條例\n44318\t54091\t院長您可以看一下我有準備PPT這上頭有許多的照片第一個就是我們回看2009年的莫拉克風災當時\n56192\t76587\t我們在媒體上先看到被披露的是關於林邊鄉海邊那個地方淹大水包括漁溫都沒有了但是我們也看到這一次在丹納斯728豪雨同樣的嘉南地區就是淹大水有很多因為強風的關係民宅屋頂被掀開慘不忍睹\n81391\t106758\t那我們再回看當時的山區的災況可以看到也是非常的慘烈但是是隔了一個禮拜之後慢慢慢慢那個畫面才傳出來我們才曉得說原來莫納科造成這麼大的災害於是開啟了這個重建條例那我們現在來看現在這一次的這個風災它所造成的災害其實也差不多\n107518\t135574\t那樣的畫面呢重複當年的一個景象山坡竟然部落可以淹大水路斷掉土石流呢進房子我們也可以看到有很多的地方是地基掏空那其實從嘉義阿里山到高雄所有的原鄉屏東台東有災害的原鄉我大概都利用我的空檔我陸陸續續都去過那我很難過的就是我親眼看到\n137114\t145119\t這樣的一個造成部落的路段這些衛生所的主任他們要背著藥材他們要去\n146414\t170505\t我也看到我們這些災民看到我來就會抱著我哭好像看到救星我也看到這一些工程人員我只不過輕輕的跟他們說辛苦了喔他們就忍不住面對我掉下眼淚所以我可以感受得到大家的壓力非常的大但是我要講的是今天主委在這邊\n171727\t188161\t其實從莫拉克風災之後經歷16年有太多的災害至今根本無人聞聞就算計畫提報了都被放生所以我們當時看到莫拉克重建條例有1200億的規模\n190143\t204704\t民間投入260億如果用物價指數去轉換大概現在是1800億那民間的投入大概四五百億我們這一次丹納斯原本是560億我個人的版本是提到600億為什麼\n206647\t226585\t因為我知道山區災害復原的狀況絕對不是這樣的錢就可以處理的來的甚至我也關心到有一些村呢他這些年一直重複治災但是再也沒有人關心他們到底要不要遷村要搬到哪裡要如何安置\n227225\t251239\t所以我自己的版本裡面我也希望能夠做法律授權的謙遜但是很可惜就是沒有被處理到可是我要請院長看一下我其實想要提的是這些年的原鄉很可憐我們看一下不論是一般的縣市或者是六都一般的縣市要仰賴中央補助這些鄉公所大概都要到五成六成以上\n252159\t275269\t那些六都的園區更恐怖他要仰賴中央甚至高達九成可是我們的才化法修法之後我不斷的呼籲過去是我爸媽不疼我我跟中央的爺爺奶奶要可是現在爺爺奶奶告訴我你的錢我已經給你爸爸媽媽了可是爸爸媽媽依然不愛我我們園鄉怎麼辦\n277213\t291618\t我們就因為人口少我們沒有可以依賴的長輩所以呢我請院長你感受一下這個照片這個是2009年莫拉科的時候這個是高雄茂林區的萬山部落\n292518\t316086\t你看那一大片的大崩塌 他們沒有被遷村每一年我去查了 中央就給他們兩百萬 五百萬做邊坡那一些邊坡的住戶啊 非常非常的惶恐特別是莫拉克之後 所有土石流淺市區動不動災害應變中心一成立 相公所就要大家撤村\n316866\t345776\t很多是無法動談癱瘓的老人家他們都說我就寧可死在這裡拜託不要讓我們去撤村不要讓我們安置大家非常的痛苦苦不堪言可是你看我當了立委我幫他們兩期爭取到水利署每一期不到五千萬你看一個不到一億的工程他們的居民非常的高興\n347233\t368656\t你再看一下這個是竹尾的原鄉這個山地門鄉是屏東最大的原鄉他們本來有自來水系統但是莫拉克風災把路弄斷了之後這16年來他供應的山地村德文村達萊村都要自己去接水源\n370131\t387101\t我很感動那時候我跑去找公共工程委員會的主委吳哲成政委他講了一句話我很感動他說如果我們把武藝投入在台北市連個波浪都看不到但是如果我們可以投入在原鄉就可以掀起美麗的波瀾\n388607\t415813\t雖然還沒有完工但是我很感謝我現在要跟院長說的是很多原鄉的災害排不到年度預算排不到災害預備金也等不到特別統計條例就這麼樣一直擱著如果是南橫他因為要通到台東他是重要的工程我們可以看到這十幾年來政府投入幾百億重複治災我們是不是要思考一下工程該怎麼做\n416892\t441965\t我給我們的院長你看一下這個畫面是在高雄復興禮這是里長他好高興那時候連日豪雨通訊都已經斷了他到有通訊的地方傳照片給我他說委員謝謝你因為我在3月去那個地方衛商他跟議員看到我趕快來跟我澄清說這次的汛期我們第30一定會滅村\n444107\t468672\t果然他說拜託給我做那個第二層護岸我趕快找我們的水保署第二層護岸做起來他好高興果不其然跟他的想法一樣這一次花了三個月馬上蓋起來的第二層護岸保護了我們所有的第三齡住戶那我也給院長看一下這個畫面這個畫面地基掏空啊\n469810\t490670\t這不是部落的錯所有的部落都有這樣的問題其實我們很清楚知道這些年原鄉不是合法建地我們很難爭取政府的經費根本沒有給我們做排水幾十年來這個都是因為沒有排水設施水就地下浸流亂竄就造成地基掏空原鄉處處可見\n492722\t512236\t因為沒有排我們做部落的排水的這樣的一個經費那我們原住民好不容易等到的國土計劃法本來今年的5月1號開始我們可以申請結果呢大家又透過表決把它延後6年到120年我們原鄉這6年又要繼續這樣的一個窘境\n513547\t537265\t我給院長看一個影片在屏東獅子鄉有一個很裡面的部落叫做找不到的部落他們的村長那個時候726豪宇很驕傲的傳這個影片給我看這邊在山多爾颱風去年的山多爾颱風的時候這邊的洪水以及土石流流到部落流到部落流到路面而且有低\n537904\t553743\t地區比較低的地方都往那個住宅方向所以這次假了那麼多天已經將近要一個禮拜當中都還看不到任何有什麼堵石流有什麼水通到馬路後就這樣乾乾淨淨因為真的是非常感謝\n554924\t574138\t吳委員吳立華能夠幫我們改善這個事之後能夠看見這樣的他的用心院長 我是故意放的他應該不用感謝吳委員吳立華他應該感謝政府應該感謝我們的水保單位委員我們跟你說明一下因為你說這個風災的問題我們下午會有個專報裡面我們這次的600億的特別預算當中屬於園民會小館\n581323\t607876\t相關的經費有45億但是可能要扣除那些福利啊什麼能夠到建設的可能很少有在編這個部分我就是要訴求這個那我再看一個簡單的圖片這個也是春日鄉的一個村長他是深藍的但是他好開心為什麼這個工程不過才不到100萬他告訴我說委員這邊年年淹水不對啦要在上面做節水\n608456\t628243\t一個不到一百萬的工程他說這一次的豪雨連日豪雨他說完全沒有淹水他非常的高興這個是信義鄉信義鄉的一個村長李市長他也是傳照片給我他說這一次的連日豪雨他們部落沒有土石流進來了再看一個圖片這個是春日鄉有一個電塔\n629823\t647551\t當時110年我去會刊 112年完工這一次他們也告訴我說好好喔路面乾乾淨淨這一次自栽的獅子鄉院長你知道這個嗎這是一個教會有很多民宅我受理四五年了我找什麼單位都不行 為什麼因為公務單位說\n650247\t674725\t這個是私人的黨土牆私人的土地不能用政府的錢做他是水保義務人就直到現在看到這樣的一個災況可能爆災也不過因為說沒有結構物說那個結構物是私人教會的黨土牆好現在我們再看一個這是花蓮的秀林鄉的文藍村你看密密麻麻的陳情書跟我陳情他們說這個問題已經10多年了沒有改善\n675606\t691742\t但是他們確實不斷不斷的遭受崩塌甚至有一個人在那邊說我就在這邊等死算了政府都不管我可是我拜託我們的政府單位不到五千萬的工程你看那個照片做好了他們很開心\n692463\t720597\t我要說的是其實強降雨是未來的氣候趨勢那我們中央也有一個災防的匯報我也看到這些年來20多年來它平均一年開兩次很多2002年的提案呢2014年還在重複的提案所以我還是要回到那句話原鄉很多的災損排不到年度預算排不到災害預備金也等不到重建條例所以我請院長是不是可以支持就是您剛剛已經\n721638\t751028\t告訴我們我很安心就是考量原鄉地區的受災情形有這種等不到排不到的狀況是不是可以編列立刻做全部部落的排水的一個治水工程還有呢需要簽件的我們重新關心他因為這次的重建條例我這一條並沒有去三讀通過那我希望有一個專案的經費那也懇請院長能夠成立一個具有災害防救實權又有跨部會協調能力的一個\n751509\t751931\t災防專責單位來 院長請\n755339\t781390\t可不可以我跟委員報告一下我跟委員報告我們在重建條例裡面光我們研擬會就編了45.5億多的經費這裡面也有部落的聯絡道橋樑 基礎設施還有水利設施等等剛剛那個畫面你有提到大蛇部落我想你跟我都是大蛇部落的小孩子我有跟自救會在上上禮拜就跟他們直接談\n782210\t796570\t因為除了那個聯絡道路你們講是專六線其實現在它還是線的聯絡道那我們跟縣政府一起但是我們會裡面要做的是部落裡面的一些排水設施還有它攤下來的那個地方未來這幾戶\n798132\t821897\t要怎麼樣來協助他們我們直接跟他們有做溝通我想他們需要什麼我們做得到的其實在這個重建條例一通過之後我們立刻就來做到時候再請委員一起來協助主委還有院長我只是要轉達我們不是個案來看我們有多少的成年老案還在那邊等待政府關愛的眼神\n822617\t847065\t那莫拉克風災這樣的一個金額都沒有辦法處理完更何況這次丹納斯的600億還包括很多社福的經費等等所以是絕對沒有辦法處理好所以我才會說拜託院長是不是能夠考量原鄉的狀況一方面能夠有特別的處理的經費二方面也希望未來能夠有一個專責單位\n849259\t857686\t防水 治水的經費我們除了長年性的經費之外我們明年開始有四年一千億的縣市館河川我會請經濟部來\n860058\t882734\t評估各地的優先順序是不是原鄉部落有特別的需求那他不整治好影響到下游這個對我們整治工程是一大的妨礙我會請經濟部在明年開始能夠全新的去檢討規劃院長也提醒您其實我們的三個水保單位以納瑪夏來講\n884415\t903434\t其實現在的河川河流的界定定義已經不同於幾十年前該做討論了他們的權責的一個分數像他們分到的幾乎全部五分之四的河段都是水保單位但是水保單位要做護岸的錢沒有啊可是相對於桃園\n904335\t924753\t他們大部分都是屬於河川署的那河川署有很多做護岸的錢啊所以兩鄉的治水就完全不一樣所以我覺得這個部分都要全面的重新來檢討我請農業部 經濟部分別來討論那麼因為這次我們在這個前進指揮所 曾經的政委處理得很好我請他也能來督導\n928072\t929295\t好 謝謝吳麗華委員持續謝謝卓院長相關部會首長的備詢謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n委員長好 辛苦了我查了一下歷年來如果是風災的災後重建特別條例有兩個一個是16年前2009年的莫拉克風災另外一個就是我們剛剛完成三堵的丹納斯紀728豪雨的災後重建特別條例\n院長您可以看一下我有準備PPT這上頭有許多的照片第一個就是我們回看2009年的莫拉克風災當時\n我們在媒體上先看到被披露的是關於林邊鄉海邊那個地方淹大水包括漁溫都沒有了但是我們也看到這一次在丹納斯728豪雨同樣的嘉南地區就是淹大水有很多因為強風的關係民宅屋頂被掀開慘不忍睹\n那我們再回看當時的山區的災況可以看到也是非常的慘烈但是是隔了一個禮拜之後慢慢慢慢那個畫面才傳出來我們才曉得說原來莫納科造成這麼大的災害於是開啟了這個重建條例那我們現在來看現在這一次的這個風災它所造成的災害其實也差不多\n那樣的畫面呢重複當年的一個景象山坡竟然部落可以淹大水路斷掉土石流呢進房子我們也可以看到有很多的地方是地基掏空那其實從嘉義阿里山到高雄所有的原鄉屏東台東有災害的原鄉我大概都利用我的空檔我陸陸續續都去過那我很難過的就是我親眼看到\n這樣的一個造成部落的路段這些衛生所的主任他們要背著藥材他們要去\n我也看到我們這些災民看到我來就會抱著我哭好像看到救星我也看到這一些工程人員我只不過輕輕的跟他們說辛苦了喔他們就忍不住面對我掉下眼淚所以我可以感受得到大家的壓力非常的大但是我要講的是今天主委在這邊\n其實從莫拉克風災之後經歷16年有太多的災害至今根本無人聞聞就算計畫提報了都被放生所以我們當時看到莫拉克重建條例有1200億的規模\n民間投入260億如果用物價指數去轉換大概現在是1800億那民間的投入大概四五百億我們這一次丹納斯原本是560億我個人的版本是提到600億為什麼\n因為我知道山區災害復原的狀況絕對不是這樣的錢就可以處理的來的甚至我也關心到有一些村呢他這些年一直重複治災但是再也沒有人關心他們到底要不要遷村要搬到哪裡要如何安置\n所以我自己的版本裡面我也希望能夠做法律授權的謙遜但是很可惜就是沒有被處理到可是我要請院長看一下我其實想要提的是這些年的原鄉很可憐我們看一下不論是一般的縣市或者是六都一般的縣市要仰賴中央補助這些鄉公所大概都要到五成六成以上\n那些六都的園區更恐怖他要仰賴中央甚至高達九成可是我們的才化法修法之後我不斷的呼籲過去是我爸媽不疼我我跟中央的爺爺奶奶要可是現在爺爺奶奶告訴我你的錢我已經給你爸爸媽媽了可是爸爸媽媽依然不愛我我們園鄉怎麼辦\n我們就因為人口少我們沒有可以依賴的長輩所以呢我請院長你感受一下這個照片這個是2009年莫拉科的時候這個是高雄茂林區的萬山部落\n你看那一大片的大崩塌 他們沒有被遷村每一年我去查了 中央就給他們兩百萬 五百萬做邊坡那一些邊坡的住戶啊 非常非常的惶恐特別是莫拉克之後 所有土石流淺市區動不動災害應變中心一成立 相公所就要大家撤村\n很多是無法動談癱瘓的老人家他們都說我就寧可死在這裡拜託不要讓我們去撤村不要讓我們安置大家非常的痛苦苦不堪言可是你看我當了立委我幫他們兩期爭取到水利署每一期不到五千萬你看一個不到一億的工程他們的居民非常的高興\n你再看一下這個是竹尾的原鄉這個山地門鄉是屏東最大的原鄉他們本來有自來水系統但是莫拉克風災把路弄斷了之後這16年來他供應的山地村德文村達萊村都要自己去接水源\n我很感動那時候我跑去找公共工程委員會的主委吳哲成政委他講了一句話我很感動他說如果我們把武藝投入在台北市連個波浪都看不到但是如果我們可以投入在原鄉就可以掀起美麗的波瀾\n雖然還沒有完工但是我很感謝我現在要跟院長說的是很多原鄉的災害排不到年度預算排不到災害預備金也等不到特別統計條例就這麼樣一直擱著如果是南橫他因為要通到台東他是重要的工程我們可以看到這十幾年來政府投入幾百億重複治災我們是不是要思考一下工程該怎麼做\n我給我們的院長你看一下這個畫面是在高雄復興禮這是里長他好高興那時候連日豪雨通訊都已經斷了他到有通訊的地方傳照片給我他說委員謝謝你因為我在3月去那個地方衛商他跟議員看到我趕快來跟我澄清說這次的汛期我們第30一定會滅村\n果然他說拜託給我做那個第二層護岸我趕快找我們的水保署第二層護岸做起來他好高興果不其然跟他的想法一樣這一次花了三個月馬上蓋起來的第二層護岸保護了我們所有的第三齡住戶那我也給院長看一下這個畫面這個畫面地基掏空啊\n這不是部落的錯所有的部落都有這樣的問題其實我們很清楚知道這些年原鄉不是合法建地我們很難爭取政府的經費根本沒有給我們做排水幾十年來這個都是因為沒有排水設施水就地下浸流亂竄就造成地基掏空原鄉處處可見\n因為沒有排我們做部落的排水的這樣的一個經費那我們原住民好不容易等到的國土計劃法本來今年的5月1號開始我們可以申請結果呢大家又透過表決把它延後6年到120年我們原鄉這6年又要繼續這樣的一個窘境\n我給院長看一個影片在屏東獅子鄉有一個很裡面的部落叫做找不到的部落他們的村長那個時候726豪宇很驕傲的傳這個影片給我看這邊在山多爾颱風去年的山多爾颱風的時候這邊的洪水以及土石流流到部落流到部落流到路面而且有低\n地區比較低的地方都往那個住宅方向所以這次假了那麼多天已經將近要一個禮拜當中都還看不到任何有什麼堵石流有什麼水通到馬路後就這樣乾乾淨淨因為真的是非常感謝\n吳委員吳立華能夠幫我們改善這個事之後能夠看見這樣的他的用心院長 我是故意放的他應該不用感謝吳委員吳立華他應該感謝政府應該感謝我們的水保單位委員我們跟你說明一下因為你說這個風災的問題我們下午會有個專報裡面我們這次的600億的特別預算當中屬於園民會小館\n相關的經費有45億但是可能要扣除那些福利啊什麼能夠到建設的可能很少有在編這個部分我就是要訴求這個那我再看一個簡單的圖片這個也是春日鄉的一個村長他是深藍的但是他好開心為什麼這個工程不過才不到100萬他告訴我說委員這邊年年淹水不對啦要在上面做節水\n一個不到一百萬的工程他說這一次的豪雨連日豪雨他說完全沒有淹水他非常的高興這個是信義鄉信義鄉的一個村長李市長他也是傳照片給我他說這一次的連日豪雨他們部落沒有土石流進來了再看一個圖片這個是春日鄉有一個電塔\n當時110年我去會刊 112年完工這一次他們也告訴我說好好喔路面乾乾淨淨這一次自栽的獅子鄉院長你知道這個嗎這是一個教會有很多民宅我受理四五年了我找什麼單位都不行 為什麼因為公務單位說\n這個是私人的黨土牆私人的土地不能用政府的錢做他是水保義務人就直到現在看到這樣的一個災況可能爆災也不過因為說沒有結構物說那個結構物是私人教會的黨土牆好現在我們再看一個這是花蓮的秀林鄉的文藍村你看密密麻麻的陳情書跟我陳情他們說這個問題已經10多年了沒有改善\n但是他們確實不斷不斷的遭受崩塌甚至有一個人在那邊說我就在這邊等死算了政府都不管我可是我拜託我們的政府單位不到五千萬的工程你看那個照片做好了他們很開心\n我要說的是其實強降雨是未來的氣候趨勢那我們中央也有一個災防的匯報我也看到這些年來20多年來它平均一年開兩次很多2002年的提案呢2014年還在重複的提案所以我還是要回到那句話原鄉很多的災損排不到年度預算排不到災害預備金也等不到重建條例所以我請院長是不是可以支持就是您剛剛已經\n告訴我們我很安心就是考量原鄉地區的受災情形有這種等不到排不到的狀況是不是可以編列立刻做全部部落的排水的一個治水工程還有呢需要簽件的我們重新關心他因為這次的重建條例我這一條並沒有去三讀通過那我希望有一個專案的經費那也懇請院長能夠成立一個具有災害防救實權又有跨部會協調能力的一個\n災防專責單位來 院長請\n可不可以我跟委員報告一下我跟委員報告我們在重建條例裡面光我們研擬會就編了45.5億多的經費這裡面也有部落的聯絡道橋樑 基礎設施還有水利設施等等剛剛那個畫面你有提到大蛇部落我想你跟我都是大蛇部落的小孩子我有跟自救會在上上禮拜就跟他們直接談\n因為除了那個聯絡道路你們講是專六線其實現在它還是線的聯絡道那我們跟縣政府一起但是我們會裡面要做的是部落裡面的一些排水設施還有它攤下來的那個地方未來這幾戶\n要怎麼樣來協助他們我們直接跟他們有做溝通我想他們需要什麼我們做得到的其實在這個重建條例一通過之後我們立刻就來做到時候再請委員一起來協助主委還有院長我只是要轉達我們不是個案來看我們有多少的成年老案還在那邊等待政府關愛的眼神\n那莫拉克風災這樣的一個金額都沒有辦法處理完更何況這次丹納斯的600億還包括很多社福的經費等等所以是絕對沒有辦法處理好所以我才會說拜託院長是不是能夠考量原鄉的狀況一方面能夠有特別的處理的經費二方面也希望未來能夠有一個專責單位\n防水 治水的經費我們除了長年性的經費之外我們明年開始有四年一千億的縣市館河川我會請經濟部來\n評估各地的優先順序是不是原鄉部落有特別的需求那他不整治好影響到下游這個對我們整治工程是一大的妨礙我會請經濟部在明年開始能夠全新的去檢討規劃院長也提醒您其實我們的三個水保單位以納瑪夏來講\n其實現在的河川河流的界定定義已經不同於幾十年前該做討論了他們的權責的一個分數像他們分到的幾乎全部五分之四的河段都是水保單位但是水保單位要做護岸的錢沒有啊可是相對於桃園\n他們大部分都是屬於河川署的那河川署有很多做護岸的錢啊所以兩鄉的治水就完全不一樣所以我覺得這個部分都要全面的重新來檢討我請農業部 經濟部分別來討論那麼因為這次我們在這個前進指揮所 曾經的政委處理得很好我請他也能來督導\n好 謝謝吳麗華委員持續謝謝卓院長相關部會首長的備詢謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.049 --> 00:00.549\n謝謝主席院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢\n\n00:22.293 --> 00:43.100\n委員長好辛苦了我查了一下歷年來如果是風災的災後重建特別條例有兩個一個是16年前2009年的莫拉克風災另外一個就是我們剛剛完成三堵的丹納斯紀728豪雨的災後重建特別條例\n\n00:44.318 --> 00:54.091\n院長您可以看一下我有準備PPT這上頭有許多的照片第一個就是我們回看2009年的莫拉克風災當時\n\n00:56.192 --> 01:16.587\n我們在媒體上先看到被披露的是關於林邊鄉海邊那個地方淹大水包括漁溫都沒有了但是我們也看到這一次在丹納斯728豪雨同樣的嘉南地區就是淹大水有很多因為強風的關係民宅屋頂被掀開慘不忍睹\n\n01:21.391 --> 01:46.758\n那我們再回看當時的山區的災況可以看到也是非常的慘烈但是是隔了一個禮拜之後慢慢慢慢那個畫面才傳出來我們才曉得說原來莫納科造成這麼大的災害於是開啟了這個重建條例那我們現在來看現在這一次的這個風災它所造成的災害其實也差不多\n\n01:47.518 --> 02:15.574\n那樣的畫面呢重複當年的一個景象山坡竟然部落可以淹大水路斷掉土石流呢進房子我們也可以看到有很多的地方是地基掏空那其實從嘉義阿里山到高雄所有的原鄉屏東台東有災害的原鄉我大概都利用我的空檔我陸陸續續都去過那我很難過的就是我親眼看到\n\n02:17.114 --> 02:25.119\n這樣的一個造成部落的路段這些衛生所的主任他們要背著藥材他們要去\n\n02:26.414 --> 02:50.505\n我也看到我們這些災民看到我來就會抱著我哭好像看到救星我也看到這一些工程人員我只不過輕輕的跟他們說辛苦了喔他們就忍不住面對我掉下眼淚所以我可以感受得到大家的壓力非常的大但是我要講的是今天主委在這邊\n\n02:51.727 --> 03:08.161\n其實從莫拉克風災之後經歷16年有太多的災害至今根本無人聞聞就算計畫提報了都被放生所以我們當時看到莫拉克重建條例有1200億的規模\n\n03:10.143 --> 03:24.704\n民間投入260億如果用物價指數去轉換大概現在是1800億那民間的投入大概四五百億我們這一次丹納斯原本是560億我個人的版本是提到600億為什麼\n\n03:26.647 --> 03:46.585\n因為我知道山區災害復原的狀況絕對不是這樣的錢就可以處理的來的甚至我也關心到有一些村呢他這些年一直重複治災但是再也沒有人關心他們到底要不要遷村要搬到哪裡要如何安置\n\n03:47.225 --> 04:11.239\n所以我自己的版本裡面我也希望能夠做法律授權的謙遜但是很可惜就是沒有被處理到可是我要請院長看一下我其實想要提的是這些年的原鄉很可憐我們看一下不論是一般的縣市或者是六都一般的縣市要仰賴中央補助這些鄉公所大概都要到五成六成以上\n\n04:12.159 --> 04:35.269\n那些六都的園區更恐怖他要仰賴中央甚至高達九成可是我們的才化法修法之後我不斷的呼籲過去是我爸媽不疼我我跟中央的爺爺奶奶要可是現在爺爺奶奶告訴我你的錢我已經給你爸爸媽媽了可是爸爸媽媽依然不愛我我們園鄉怎麼辦\n\n04:37.213 --> 04:51.618\n我們就因為人口少我們沒有可以依賴的長輩所以呢我請院長你感受一下這個照片這個是2009年莫拉科的時候這個是高雄茂林區的萬山部落\n\n04:52.518 --> 05:16.086\n你看那一大片的大崩塌他們沒有被遷村每一年我去查了中央就給他們兩百萬五百萬做邊坡那一些邊坡的住戶啊非常非常的惶恐特別是莫拉克之後所有土石流淺市區動不動災害應變中心一成立相公所就要大家撤村\n\n05:16.866 --> 05:45.776\n很多是無法動談癱瘓的老人家他們都說我就寧可死在這裡拜託不要讓我們去撤村不要讓我們安置大家非常的痛苦苦不堪言可是你看我當了立委我幫他們兩期爭取到水利署每一期不到五千萬你看一個不到一億的工程他們的居民非常的高興\n\n05:47.233 --> 06:08.656\n你再看一下這個是竹尾的原鄉這個山地門鄉是屏東最大的原鄉他們本來有自來水系統但是莫拉克風災把路弄斷了之後這16年來他供應的山地村德文村達萊村都要自己去接水源\n\n06:10.131 --> 06:27.101\n我很感動那時候我跑去找公共工程委員會的主委吳哲成政委他講了一句話我很感動他說如果我們把武藝投入在台北市連個波浪都看不到但是如果我們可以投入在原鄉就可以掀起美麗的波瀾\n\n06:28.607 --> 06:55.813\n雖然還沒有完工但是我很感謝我現在要跟院長說的是很多原鄉的災害排不到年度預算排不到災害預備金也等不到特別統計條例就這麼樣一直擱著如果是南橫他因為要通到台東他是重要的工程我們可以看到這十幾年來政府投入幾百億重複治災我們是不是要思考一下工程該怎麼做\n\n06:56.892 --> 07:21.965\n我給我們的院長你看一下這個畫面是在高雄復興禮這是里長他好高興那時候連日豪雨通訊都已經斷了他到有通訊的地方傳照片給我他說委員謝謝你因為我在3月去那個地方衛商他跟議員看到我趕快來跟我澄清說這次的汛期我們第30一定會滅村\n\n07:24.107 --> 07:48.672\n果然他說拜託給我做那個第二層護岸我趕快找我們的水保署第二層護岸做起來他好高興果不其然跟他的想法一樣這一次花了三個月馬上蓋起來的第二層護岸保護了我們所有的第三齡住戶那我也給院長看一下這個畫面這個畫面地基掏空啊\n\n07:49.810 --> 08:10.670\n這不是部落的錯所有的部落都有這樣的問題其實我們很清楚知道這些年原鄉不是合法建地我們很難爭取政府的經費根本沒有給我們做排水幾十年來這個都是因為沒有排水設施水就地下浸流亂竄就造成地基掏空原鄉處處可見\n\n08:12.722 --> 08:32.236\n因為沒有排我們做部落的排水的這樣的一個經費那我們原住民好不容易等到的國土計劃法本來今年的5月1號開始我們可以申請結果呢大家又透過表決把它延後6年到120年我們原鄉這6年又要繼續這樣的一個窘境\n\n08:33.547 --> 08:57.265\n我給院長看一個影片在屏東獅子鄉有一個很裡面的部落叫做找不到的部落他們的村長那個時候726豪宇很驕傲的傳這個影片給我看這邊在山多爾颱風去年的山多爾颱風的時候這邊的洪水以及土石流流到部落流到部落流到路面而且有低\n\n08:57.904 --> 09:13.743\n地區比較低的地方都往那個住宅方向所以這次假了那麼多天已經將近要一個禮拜當中都還看不到任何有什麼堵石流有什麼水通到馬路後就這樣乾乾淨淨因為真的是非常感謝\n\n09:14.924 --> 09:34.138\n吳委員吳立華能夠幫我們改善這個事之後能夠看見這樣的他的用心院長我是故意放的他應該不用感謝吳委員吳立華他應該感謝政府應該感謝我們的水保單位委員我們跟你說明一下因為你說這個風災的問題我們下午會有個專報裡面我們這次的600億的特別預算當中屬於園民會小館\n\n09:41.323 --> 10:07.876\n相關的經費有45億但是可能要扣除那些福利啊什麼能夠到建設的可能很少有在編這個部分我就是要訴求這個那我再看一個簡單的圖片這個也是春日鄉的一個村長他是深藍的但是他好開心為什麼這個工程不過才不到100萬他告訴我說委員這邊年年淹水不對啦要在上面做節水\n\n10:08.456 --> 10:28.243\n一個不到一百萬的工程他說這一次的豪雨連日豪雨他說完全沒有淹水他非常的高興這個是信義鄉信義鄉的一個村長李市長他也是傳照片給我他說這一次的連日豪雨他們部落沒有土石流進來了再看一個圖片這個是春日鄉有一個電塔\n\n10:29.823 --> 10:47.551\n當時110年我去會刊112年完工這一次他們也告訴我說好好喔路面乾乾淨淨這一次自栽的獅子鄉院長你知道這個嗎這是一個教會有很多民宅我受理四五年了我找什麼單位都不行為什麼因為公務單位說\n\n10:50.247 --> 11:14.725\n這個是私人的黨土牆私人的土地不能用政府的錢做他是水保義務人就直到現在看到這樣的一個災況可能爆災也不過因為說沒有結構物說那個結構物是私人教會的黨土牆好現在我們再看一個這是花蓮的秀林鄉的文藍村你看密密麻麻的陳情書跟我陳情他們說這個問題已經10多年了沒有改善\n\n11:15.606 --> 11:31.742\n但是他們確實不斷不斷的遭受崩塌甚至有一個人在那邊說我就在這邊等死算了政府都不管我可是我拜託我們的政府單位不到五千萬的工程你看那個照片做好了他們很開心\n\n11:32.463 --> 12:00.597\n我要說的是其實強降雨是未來的氣候趨勢那我們中央也有一個災防的匯報我也看到這些年來20多年來它平均一年開兩次很多2002年的提案呢2014年還在重複的提案所以我還是要回到那句話原鄉很多的災損排不到年度預算排不到災害預備金也等不到重建條例所以我請院長是不是可以支持就是您剛剛已經\n\n12:01.638 --> 12:31.028\n告訴我們我很安心就是考量原鄉地區的受災情形有這種等不到排不到的狀況是不是可以編列立刻做全部部落的排水的一個治水工程還有呢需要簽件的我們重新關心他因為這次的重建條例我這一條並沒有去三讀通過那我希望有一個專案的經費那也懇請院長能夠成立一個具有災害防救實權又有跨部會協調能力的一個\n\n12:31.509 --> 12:31.931\n災防專責單位來院長請\n\n12:35.339 --> 13:01.390\n可不可以我跟委員報告一下我跟委員報告我們在重建條例裡面光我們研擬會就編了45.5億多的經費這裡面也有部落的聯絡道橋樑基礎設施還有水利設施等等剛剛那個畫面你有提到大蛇部落我想你跟我都是大蛇部落的小孩子我有跟自救會在上上禮拜就跟他們直接談\n\n13:02.210 --> 13:16.570\n因為除了那個聯絡道路你們講是專六線其實現在它還是線的聯絡道那我們跟縣政府一起但是我們會裡面要做的是部落裡面的一些排水設施還有它攤下來的那個地方未來這幾戶\n\n13:18.132 --> 13:41.897\n要怎麼樣來協助他們我們直接跟他們有做溝通我想他們需要什麼我們做得到的其實在這個重建條例一通過之後我們立刻就來做到時候再請委員一起來協助主委還有院長我只是要轉達我們不是個案來看我們有多少的成年老案還在那邊等待政府關愛的眼神\n\n13:42.617 --> 14:07.065\n那莫拉克風災這樣的一個金額都沒有辦法處理完更何況這次丹納斯的600億還包括很多社福的經費等等所以是絕對沒有辦法處理好所以我才會說拜託院長是不是能夠考量原鄉的狀況一方面能夠有特別的處理的經費二方面也希望未來能夠有一個專責單位\n\n14:09.259 --> 14:17.686\n防水治水的經費我們除了長年性的經費之外我們明年開始有四年一千億的縣市館河川我會請經濟部來\n\n14:20.058 --> 14:42.734\n評估各地的優先順序是不是原鄉部落有特別的需求那他不整治好影響到下游這個對我們整治工程是一大的妨礙我會請經濟部在明年開始能夠全新的去檢討規劃院長也提醒您其實我們的三個水保單位以納瑪夏來講\n\n14:44.415 --> 15:03.434\n其實現在的河川河流的界定定義已經不同於幾十年前該做討論了他們的權責的一個分數像他們分到的幾乎全部五分之四的河段都是水保單位但是水保單位要做護岸的錢沒有啊可是相對於桃園\n\n15:04.335 --> 15:24.753\n他們大部分都是屬於河川署的那河川署有很多做護岸的錢啊所以兩鄉的治水就完全不一樣所以我覺得這個部分都要全面的重新來檢討我請農業部經濟部分別來討論那麼因為這次我們在這個前進指揮所曾經的政委處理得很好我請他也能來督導\n\n15:28.072 --> 15:29.295\n好謝謝吳麗華委員持續謝謝卓院長相關部會首長的備詢謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.049,"end":0.549,"text":"謝謝主席 院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":22.293,"end":43.1,"text":"委員長好 辛苦了我查了一下歷年來如果是風災的災後重建特別條例有兩個一個是16年前2009年的莫拉克風災另外一個就是我們剛剛完成三堵的丹納斯紀728豪雨的災後重建特別條例"},{"start":44.318,"end":54.091,"text":"院長您可以看一下我有準備PPT這上頭有許多的照片第一個就是我們回看2009年的莫拉克風災當時"},{"start":56.192,"end":76.587,"text":"我們在媒體上先看到被披露的是關於林邊鄉海邊那個地方淹大水包括漁溫都沒有了但是我們也看到這一次在丹納斯728豪雨同樣的嘉南地區就是淹大水有很多因為強風的關係民宅屋頂被掀開慘不忍睹"},{"start":81.391,"end":106.758,"text":"那我們再回看當時的山區的災況可以看到也是非常的慘烈但是是隔了一個禮拜之後慢慢慢慢那個畫面才傳出來我們才曉得說原來莫納科造成這麼大的災害於是開啟了這個重建條例那我們現在來看現在這一次的這個風災它所造成的災害其實也差不多"},{"start":107.518,"end":135.574,"text":"那樣的畫面呢重複當年的一個景象山坡竟然部落可以淹大水路斷掉土石流呢進房子我們也可以看到有很多的地方是地基掏空那其實從嘉義阿里山到高雄所有的原鄉屏東台東有災害的原鄉我大概都利用我的空檔我陸陸續續都去過那我很難過的就是我親眼看到"},{"start":137.114,"end":145.119,"text":"這樣的一個造成部落的路段這些衛生所的主任他們要背著藥材他們要去"},{"start":146.414,"end":170.505,"text":"我也看到我們這些災民看到我來就會抱著我哭好像看到救星我也看到這一些工程人員我只不過輕輕的跟他們說辛苦了喔他們就忍不住面對我掉下眼淚所以我可以感受得到大家的壓力非常的大但是我要講的是今天主委在這邊"},{"start":171.727,"end":188.161,"text":"其實從莫拉克風災之後經歷16年有太多的災害至今根本無人聞聞就算計畫提報了都被放生所以我們當時看到莫拉克重建條例有1200億的規模"},{"start":190.143,"end":204.704,"text":"民間投入260億如果用物價指數去轉換大概現在是1800億那民間的投入大概四五百億我們這一次丹納斯原本是560億我個人的版本是提到600億為什麼"},{"start":206.647,"end":226.585,"text":"因為我知道山區災害復原的狀況絕對不是這樣的錢就可以處理的來的甚至我也關心到有一些村呢他這些年一直重複治災但是再也沒有人關心他們到底要不要遷村要搬到哪裡要如何安置"},{"start":227.225,"end":251.239,"text":"所以我自己的版本裡面我也希望能夠做法律授權的謙遜但是很可惜就是沒有被處理到可是我要請院長看一下我其實想要提的是這些年的原鄉很可憐我們看一下不論是一般的縣市或者是六都一般的縣市要仰賴中央補助這些鄉公所大概都要到五成六成以上"},{"start":252.159,"end":275.269,"text":"那些六都的園區更恐怖他要仰賴中央甚至高達九成可是我們的才化法修法之後我不斷的呼籲過去是我爸媽不疼我我跟中央的爺爺奶奶要可是現在爺爺奶奶告訴我你的錢我已經給你爸爸媽媽了可是爸爸媽媽依然不愛我我們園鄉怎麼辦"},{"start":277.213,"end":291.618,"text":"我們就因為人口少我們沒有可以依賴的長輩所以呢我請院長你感受一下這個照片這個是2009年莫拉科的時候這個是高雄茂林區的萬山部落"},{"start":292.518,"end":316.086,"text":"你看那一大片的大崩塌 他們沒有被遷村每一年我去查了 中央就給他們兩百萬 五百萬做邊坡那一些邊坡的住戶啊 非常非常的惶恐特別是莫拉克之後 所有土石流淺市區動不動災害應變中心一成立 相公所就要大家撤村"},{"start":316.866,"end":345.776,"text":"很多是無法動談癱瘓的老人家他們都說我就寧可死在這裡拜託不要讓我們去撤村不要讓我們安置大家非常的痛苦苦不堪言可是你看我當了立委我幫他們兩期爭取到水利署每一期不到五千萬你看一個不到一億的工程他們的居民非常的高興"},{"start":347.233,"end":368.656,"text":"你再看一下這個是竹尾的原鄉這個山地門鄉是屏東最大的原鄉他們本來有自來水系統但是莫拉克風災把路弄斷了之後這16年來他供應的山地村德文村達萊村都要自己去接水源"},{"start":370.131,"end":387.101,"text":"我很感動那時候我跑去找公共工程委員會的主委吳哲成政委他講了一句話我很感動他說如果我們把武藝投入在台北市連個波浪都看不到但是如果我們可以投入在原鄉就可以掀起美麗的波瀾"},{"start":388.607,"end":415.813,"text":"雖然還沒有完工但是我很感謝我現在要跟院長說的是很多原鄉的災害排不到年度預算排不到災害預備金也等不到特別統計條例就這麼樣一直擱著如果是南橫他因為要通到台東他是重要的工程我們可以看到這十幾年來政府投入幾百億重複治災我們是不是要思考一下工程該怎麼做"},{"start":416.892,"end":441.965,"text":"我給我們的院長你看一下這個畫面是在高雄復興禮這是里長他好高興那時候連日豪雨通訊都已經斷了他到有通訊的地方傳照片給我他說委員謝謝你因為我在3月去那個地方衛商他跟議員看到我趕快來跟我澄清說這次的汛期我們第30一定會滅村"},{"start":444.107,"end":468.672,"text":"果然他說拜託給我做那個第二層護岸我趕快找我們的水保署第二層護岸做起來他好高興果不其然跟他的想法一樣這一次花了三個月馬上蓋起來的第二層護岸保護了我們所有的第三齡住戶那我也給院長看一下這個畫面這個畫面地基掏空啊"},{"start":469.81,"end":490.67,"text":"這不是部落的錯所有的部落都有這樣的問題其實我們很清楚知道這些年原鄉不是合法建地我們很難爭取政府的經費根本沒有給我們做排水幾十年來這個都是因為沒有排水設施水就地下浸流亂竄就造成地基掏空原鄉處處可見"},{"start":492.722,"end":512.236,"text":"因為沒有排我們做部落的排水的這樣的一個經費那我們原住民好不容易等到的國土計劃法本來今年的5月1號開始我們可以申請結果呢大家又透過表決把它延後6年到120年我們原鄉這6年又要繼續這樣的一個窘境"},{"start":513.547,"end":537.265,"text":"我給院長看一個影片在屏東獅子鄉有一個很裡面的部落叫做找不到的部落他們的村長那個時候726豪宇很驕傲的傳這個影片給我看這邊在山多爾颱風去年的山多爾颱風的時候這邊的洪水以及土石流流到部落流到部落流到路面而且有低"},{"start":537.904,"end":553.743,"text":"地區比較低的地方都往那個住宅方向所以這次假了那麼多天已經將近要一個禮拜當中都還看不到任何有什麼堵石流有什麼水通到馬路後就這樣乾乾淨淨因為真的是非常感謝"},{"start":554.924,"end":574.138,"text":"吳委員吳立華能夠幫我們改善這個事之後能夠看見這樣的他的用心院長 我是故意放的他應該不用感謝吳委員吳立華他應該感謝政府應該感謝我們的水保單位委員我們跟你說明一下因為你說這個風災的問題我們下午會有個專報裡面我們這次的600億的特別預算當中屬於園民會小館"},{"start":581.323,"end":607.876,"text":"相關的經費有45億但是可能要扣除那些福利啊什麼能夠到建設的可能很少有在編這個部分我就是要訴求這個那我再看一個簡單的圖片這個也是春日鄉的一個村長他是深藍的但是他好開心為什麼這個工程不過才不到100萬他告訴我說委員這邊年年淹水不對啦要在上面做節水"},{"start":608.456,"end":628.243,"text":"一個不到一百萬的工程他說這一次的豪雨連日豪雨他說完全沒有淹水他非常的高興這個是信義鄉信義鄉的一個村長李市長他也是傳照片給我他說這一次的連日豪雨他們部落沒有土石流進來了再看一個圖片這個是春日鄉有一個電塔"},{"start":629.823,"end":647.551,"text":"當時110年我去會刊 112年完工這一次他們也告訴我說好好喔路面乾乾淨淨這一次自栽的獅子鄉院長你知道這個嗎這是一個教會有很多民宅我受理四五年了我找什麼單位都不行 為什麼因為公務單位說"},{"start":650.247,"end":674.725,"text":"這個是私人的黨土牆私人的土地不能用政府的錢做他是水保義務人就直到現在看到這樣的一個災況可能爆災也不過因為說沒有結構物說那個結構物是私人教會的黨土牆好現在我們再看一個這是花蓮的秀林鄉的文藍村你看密密麻麻的陳情書跟我陳情他們說這個問題已經10多年了沒有改善"},{"start":675.606,"end":691.742,"text":"但是他們確實不斷不斷的遭受崩塌甚至有一個人在那邊說我就在這邊等死算了政府都不管我可是我拜託我們的政府單位不到五千萬的工程你看那個照片做好了他們很開心"},{"start":692.463,"end":720.597,"text":"我要說的是其實強降雨是未來的氣候趨勢那我們中央也有一個災防的匯報我也看到這些年來20多年來它平均一年開兩次很多2002年的提案呢2014年還在重複的提案所以我還是要回到那句話原鄉很多的災損排不到年度預算排不到災害預備金也等不到重建條例所以我請院長是不是可以支持就是您剛剛已經"},{"start":721.638,"end":751.028,"text":"告訴我們我很安心就是考量原鄉地區的受災情形有這種等不到排不到的狀況是不是可以編列立刻做全部部落的排水的一個治水工程還有呢需要簽件的我們重新關心他因為這次的重建條例我這一條並沒有去三讀通過那我希望有一個專案的經費那也懇請院長能夠成立一個具有災害防救實權又有跨部會協調能力的一個"},{"start":751.509,"end":751.931,"text":"災防專責單位來 院長請"},{"start":755.339,"end":781.39,"text":"可不可以我跟委員報告一下我跟委員報告我們在重建條例裡面光我們研擬會就編了45.5億多的經費這裡面也有部落的聯絡道橋樑 基礎設施還有水利設施等等剛剛那個畫面你有提到大蛇部落我想你跟我都是大蛇部落的小孩子我有跟自救會在上上禮拜就跟他們直接談"},{"start":782.21,"end":796.57,"text":"因為除了那個聯絡道路你們講是專六線其實現在它還是線的聯絡道那我們跟縣政府一起但是我們會裡面要做的是部落裡面的一些排水設施還有它攤下來的那個地方未來這幾戶"},{"start":798.132,"end":821.897,"text":"要怎麼樣來協助他們我們直接跟他們有做溝通我想他們需要什麼我們做得到的其實在這個重建條例一通過之後我們立刻就來做到時候再請委員一起來協助主委還有院長我只是要轉達我們不是個案來看我們有多少的成年老案還在那邊等待政府關愛的眼神"},{"start":822.617,"end":847.065,"text":"那莫拉克風災這樣的一個金額都沒有辦法處理完更何況這次丹納斯的600億還包括很多社福的經費等等所以是絕對沒有辦法處理好所以我才會說拜託院長是不是能夠考量原鄉的狀況一方面能夠有特別的處理的經費二方面也希望未來能夠有一個專責單位"},{"start":849.259,"end":857.686,"text":"防水 治水的經費我們除了長年性的經費之外我們明年開始有四年一千億的縣市館河川我會請經濟部來"},{"start":860.058,"end":882.734,"text":"評估各地的優先順序是不是原鄉部落有特別的需求那他不整治好影響到下游這個對我們整治工程是一大的妨礙我會請經濟部在明年開始能夠全新的去檢討規劃院長也提醒您其實我們的三個水保單位以納瑪夏來講"},{"start":884.415,"end":903.434,"text":"其實現在的河川河流的界定定義已經不同於幾十年前該做討論了他們的權責的一個分數像他們分到的幾乎全部五分之四的河段都是水保單位但是水保單位要做護岸的錢沒有啊可是相對於桃園"},{"start":904.335,"end":924.753,"text":"他們大部分都是屬於河川署的那河川署有很多做護岸的錢啊所以兩鄉的治水就完全不一樣所以我覺得這個部分都要全面的重新來檢討我請農業部 經濟部分別來討論那麼因為這次我們在這個前進指揮所 曾經的政委處理得很好我請他也能來督導"},{"start":928.072,"end":929.295,"text":"好 謝謝吳麗華委員持續謝謝卓院長相關部會首長的備詢謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1037,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時48分）謝謝主席，有請院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：伍委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：院長好，辛苦了！"],["卓院長榮泰：不會，大家辛苦了！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我查了一下，歷年來風災的災後重建特別條例有兩個，一個是16年前，2009年的莫拉克風災，另外一個就是我們剛剛完成三讀的丹娜絲及七二八豪雨的災後重建特別條例。院長，我有準備PPT，您可以看一下，這上頭有許多的照片。第一個，我們回頭看2009年的莫拉克風災，當時我們在媒體上先看到被披露的是，林邊鄉海邊那個地方淹大水，包括魚塭都沒有了。但是我們也看到這一次丹娜絲及七二八豪雨，嘉南地區也同樣淹大水，有很多民宅因為強風的關係屋頂被掀開，慘不忍睹。我們再回頭看當時山區的災況，可以看到也是非常的慘烈，但是事隔了一個禮拜之後，慢慢畫面才傳了出來，我們才曉得原來莫拉克造成這麼大的災害，於是開啟了重建條例。","我們現在來看這一次風災所造成的災害，其實也差不多，那樣的畫面重複當年的景象，部落山坡竟然可以淹大水、路斷掉、土石流進房子，我們也可以看到很多地方是地基淘空。其實從嘉義阿里山到高雄所有的原鄉，屏東、臺東有災害的原鄉，我大概都利用空檔陸陸續續去過，讓我很難過的是，我親眼看到部落的路斷，這些衛生所的主任要背著藥材進去災區；也看到這些災民看到我來就抱著我哭，好像看到救星；也看到這些工程人員，我只不過輕輕的跟他們說辛苦了喔，他們忍不住面對我掉下眼淚，所以我可以感受得到大家壓力非常的大。今天主委在這邊，我要講的是，其實從莫拉克風災之後經歷了16年，有太多的災害至今根本無人聞問，就算計畫提報了，都被放生。所以我們當時看到莫拉克重建條例有1,200億的規模，民間投入260億，如果用物價指數去轉換現在大概是1,800億，民間投入大概四、五百億；而這一次丹娜絲原本是編列560億，我個人的版本是提到600億，為什麼？因為我知道山區災害復原的狀況，絕對不是這樣的錢可以處理的。甚至我也關心有一些村這些年來一直重複致災，但是再也沒有人關心他們到底要不要遷村？要搬到哪裡？要如何安置？所以我自己的版本裡面也希望做法律授權的遷村，但是很可惜沒有被處理到。","但是我要請院長看一下，我其實想要提這些年的原鄉很可憐啊！我們看一下，不論是一般的縣市或者六都，一般的縣市要仰賴中央補助，這些鄉公所大概都要到五成、六成以上，而六都的園區更恐怖，它要仰賴中央甚至高達九成。可是我們的財劃法修法之後，我不斷地呼籲，過去是爸媽不疼我，我跟中央的爺爺奶奶要，可是現在爺爺奶奶告訴我，你的錢我已經給你爸爸媽媽，可是爸爸媽媽依然不愛我，我們原鄉怎麼辦？我們就因為人口少，沒有可以倚賴的長輩。所以我請院長感受一下這個照片，這個是2009年莫拉克時高雄茂林區的萬山部落，你看那一大片的大崩塌，他們沒有被遷村，我去查了，每一年中央就給他們兩百萬、五百萬做邊坡，那一些邊坡的住戶非常非常的惶恐，特別是莫拉克之後，動不動災害應變中心一成立，鄉公所就要所有土石流潛勢區撤村，但很多是無法動彈、癱瘓的老人家，他們都說我寧可死在這裡，拜託不要讓我們撤村、不要讓我們安置，大家非常的痛苦，苦不堪言。我當了立委，我幫他們爭取到水利署兩期的經費，每一期不到五千萬，你看一個不到一億的工程，他們的居民非常的高興。","你再看一下這個是主委的原鄉，三地門鄉是屏東最大的原鄉，他們本來有自來水系統，但是莫拉克風災把路弄斷了之後，這16年來，它供應的三地村、德文村、達來村都要自己去接水源。那時候我跑去找公共工程委員會的主委吳澤成政委，他講了一句話我很感動，他說如果我們把5億投入在臺北市，連個波浪都看不到，但是如果我們可以投入在原鄉，就可以掀起美麗的波瀾。雖然還沒有完工，但是我很感謝，我現在要跟院長說的是，很多原鄉的災害排不到年度預算、排不到災害預備金，也等不到特別重建條例，就這麼樣一直擱著。如果是南橫，因為它要通到臺東，它是重要的工程，我們可以看到這十幾年來，政府投入幾百億重複治災，我們是不是要思考一下工程該怎麼做？","給院長看一下，這個畫面是在高雄復興里，里長他好高興，那時候連日豪雨，通訊都已經斷了，他到有通訊的地方傳照片給我，他說：委員，謝謝你。我在3月去那個地方慰喪，他跟議員看到我，趕快來跟我陳情說：這次的汛期，我們第三鄰一定會滅村。他拜託要做第二層護岸，我趕快找水保署，把第二層護岸做起來，他好高興，果不其然跟他的想法一樣，這一次花了3個月蓋起來的第二層護岸，保護了所有第三鄰的住戶。","我也給院長看一下這個畫面，這個畫面是地基淘空，這不是部落的錯，所有部落都有這樣的問題，其實我們很清楚知道，這些原鄉不是合法建地，我們很難爭取政府的經費，幾十年來根本沒有給他們做排水，這都是因為沒有排水設施，水在地下逕流亂竄，造成地基淘空，原鄉處處可見，都是因為沒有部落排水的經費。我們原住民好不容易等到的國土計畫法，本來今年5月1號開始可以申請，結果大家又透過表決把它延後6年到120年，我們原鄉這6年又要繼續這樣的窘境。","我給院長看一個影片，在屏東獅子鄉有一個很裡面的部落，叫做「找不到的部落」，他們的村長在七二六豪雨時，很驕傲的傳這個影片給我看。","（播放影片）"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：院長，我是故意放的，他應該不用感謝伍委員伍麗華，他應該感謝政府，應該感謝我們的水保單位。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我跟你說明一下，關於你說的風災問題，我們下午會有專報，我們這次600億的特別預算當中，屬於原民會轄管相關的經費有45億。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，但是可能要扣除福利什麼的，能夠到建設的可能很少，沒關係，院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：有在編列……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我的訴求就是這個。再來看一個簡單的圖片，這是春日鄉的一個村長，他是深藍的，但是他好開心，為什麼？這個工程不到100萬，他告訴我說：委員，這邊年年淹水不對啦！要在上面做截水。一個不到100萬的工程，他說這一次的連日豪雨完全沒有淹水，他非常的高興。","另一個是信義鄉的村長、理事長也傳照片給我，他說這一次的連日豪雨，他們部落沒有土石流進來了。再看一個圖片，春日鄉有一個電塔，當時110年我去會勘，112年完工，這一次他們也告訴我：好好喔！路面乾乾淨淨。這一次致災的獅子鄉，院長，你知道這個嗎？這是一個教會，有很多民宅，我受理四、五年了，我找什麼單位都不行，為什麼？因為公務單位說這個是私人的擋土牆、私人的土地，不能用政府的錢做，他是水保義務人，直到現在看到這樣的災況，可能報災也不過，因為他們說那個結構物是私人教會的擋土牆。","現在我們再看一個，這是花蓮秀林鄉的文蘭村，你看密密麻麻跟我陳情的陳情書，他們說這個問題已經十多年沒有改善，但是他們確實不斷不斷的遭受崩塌，甚至有一個人說：我就在這邊等死算了，政府都不管我，可是我拜託我們的政府單位，你看那個照片，不到5,000萬的工程做好了，他們很開心。","其實強降雨是未來的氣候趨勢，我們中央也有災防會報，我看到這二十多年來平均1年開2次，很多2002年的提案到2014年還在重複地提案，所以我還是要回到那句話，原鄉很多的災損排不到年度預算，排不到災害預備金，也等不到重建條例。所以我請院長可不可以支持院長您剛剛告訴我們、讓我很安心的，就是考量原鄉地區的受災情形，有這種等不到、排不到的狀況，是不是可以編列立刻做全部部落的排水治水工程？還有需要遷建的，我們重新關心它，因為這次的重建條例針對我這一條並沒有三讀通過，我希望有專案的經費，也懇請院長能夠成立一個具有災害防救實權、又有跨部會協調能力的災防專責單位。院長請說明。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我可不可以跟委員報告一下？"],["卓院長榮泰：請補充說明。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，在重建條例裡面，光我們原民會就編了四十五點五億多的經費，這裡面也有部落的連絡道、橋梁、基礎設施，還有水利設施等等。剛剛畫面你有提到大社部落，我想你跟我都是大社部落的小孩子，上上禮拜我有跟自救會直接談，因為除了連絡道路，你們講的是專6線，其實現在它還是縣的連絡道，所以我們跟縣政府一起。但是我們會裡面要做的是部落裡的一些排水設施，還有坍下來的那些地方，未來要怎麼樣來協助這幾戶，我們直接跟他們溝通，我想他們需要什麼，然後我們做得到的，在這個重建條例一通過之後，我們立刻就來做，到時候再請委員一起協助。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委、還有院長，我只是要轉達，我們不是個案來看，有多少陳年老案還在那邊等待政府關愛的眼神？莫拉克風災這樣的金額都沒有辦法處理完，更何況這次丹娜絲的600億，還包括很多社福的經費等等，所以是絕對沒有辦法處理好，我才會說拜託院長是不是能夠考量原鄉的狀況，一方面能夠有特別的處理經費，二方面也希望未來能夠有一個專責單位？"],["卓院長榮泰：治水的經費除了常年性的經費之外，我們明年開始有4年1,000億的縣市管河川改善計畫，我會請經濟部來評估各地的優先順序，看看是不是原鄉部落有特別的需求，它不整治好，影響到下游，這對整治工程是一大妨礙，我會請經濟部在明年開始能夠全新地檢討規劃。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：院長，也提醒您，其實我們3個水保單位，以那瑪夏來講，現在界定河川河流的定義已經不同於幾十年前，該做討論了，以他們的權責分屬，他們分到的幾乎五分之四的河段都是水保單位，但是水保單位要做護岸的錢沒有啊！可是相對於桃源，他們大部分都是屬於河川分署，河川分署有很多做護岸的錢，所以兩鄉的治水就完全不一樣，我覺得這個部分都要全面來重新檢討。"],["卓院長榮泰：我請農業部、經濟部分別來討論。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為這次我們在前進指揮所，陳金德政委處理得很好，我請他也能來督導相關工程未來可以改進的地方。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","報告院會，議場2樓旁聽的是來自張智倫委員邀請的大中華記者友好交流協會，我們掌聲歡迎。","報告院會，114年度中央政府總預算追加預算案之質詢均已詢答完畢，謝謝卓院長及相關列席部會首長的列席答詢。","現在作以下決定：一、114年度中央政府總預算追加預算案，交財政委員會會同有關委員審查；二、將各委員會發言紀錄及書面質詢函送行政院，請就未答復部分予以書面答復；三、已提出之書面質詢，尚未登載公報者，一律補刊。","報告院會，上午會議進行到此為止，謝謝吳宗憲委員、張智倫委員、羅廷瑋委員一起陪同我們參與今天的專案報告會議。上午會議進行到此，下午2時30分繼續開會，現在休息。","休息（12時4分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":215,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["韓國瑜","王鴻薇","張啓楷","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","許宇甄","陳亭妃","賴士葆","賴惠員","翁曉玲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":159,"meetingDate":["2025-08-26"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長及相關部會首長列席報告「114年度中央政府總預算追加預算\n案」編製經過並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00004"}}}